Let's FINE TUNE Deity! (Small nerfs only please)

[mortal surge]

What about m'y offer of a switch ? You HoC deity I HoC beoH ? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[gaunt flicker]

You guys don't have an argument so you've resorted to attacking other classes huh?

[gaunt mica]

I always found it odd that lines dont scale with al, but if they did dursa second chance and heretic mana rush would be so broken in pvp lmao.

[gaunt flicker]

I didn't know this was on the table. I'd be game once I have a more regular schedule

[mortal surge]

My argument is your argument are absolutely not fair, and don't take into considération what the game is currently.
Again, nerf deity as much as you want, if it means scaling on BeoH is taken into consideration I m fine with every nerf in the world.

[mortal surge]

I will love it ❤️

[spare pasture]

ya all can blame deitys around here about fighting back to not get nerf to the ground, but if we listen to haters, here what you want :

• No more Temp buff, or at best a useless temp1
• sacrifying Staying power
• Remove SF
• Kill channelalus by making it 2 turns
• remove dex bonus
• -30/50% on def/res
• nerf hybrid capabilities
• not told about yet, but i suppose asking for HP/mana will come soon
• since Dara too good at endless, People will also ask for an apex line nerf.

In the end lets just rollback deity to what it was before rework, it would still be stronger than what would be left of current iteration if we listen to people here.

[mortal surge]

Deity AL 500 = Deity AL 600 with full passive.
Gaheite, what about Beo H ?

[spare pasture]

so yeah, i'm done arguing too, as Pie 👍

[gaunt flicker]

The only thing I want is channelalus nerfed, don't care about the other stuff. Also how is temp 1 useless?

[mortal surge]

I m also done

[echo hornet]

Imagine if gaheite is the one saving Deity from a nerf because he pissed everyone and everyone stop talking about it.

[gaunt flicker]

If you got a side by side comparison between the two, al 0 and then 500 I'd love to see it.

Also anyone with a lot of ascensions can tell you that the damage gains fall off the more als you have. That goes for all classes

[mortal surge]

That's maybe what is happening, because he just can't be fair.
Again, nerf chan, that's totally fine, remove the issues talked about for PvP, remove some dex, reduce some stat, it's fine.

[gaunt flicker]

Y'all are soooooo mad I pointed out how broken channelalus is. Meanwhile I've been calm this entire time

[mortal surge]

Everyone running Deity yes, but for Beo it's not true, due to the scaling. You never seen SS of stat screen with same AL same gear for high AL ? Sounds weird but fine. Telling scaling is additive for what is a celestial your main class sounds...weird

[gaunt flicker]

I do not think that's true, I want to see actual proof

[echo hornet]

"NERF DEITY" gaheite asked calmly.

[mortal surge]

We have been calm. You re just here talking about changing things to a class on a update you have no idea about as you re still on ang1. And most people here including me are ok with some things been tuned down.

[dreamy crag]

more stats

relative to dara

[orchid heart]

Same build, same al

[gaunt flicker]

I've explained over and over again what I think would be reasonable and why. I'm sorry that triggers you but that's not my problem

[mortal surge]

I mean it's easy math
When something is additive, the boost % tend to decrease with AL
When something scale x, the boost tend to increase with AL.
It's as simple as that

[gaunt flicker]

Ok can you show me proof then?

[mortal surge]

It's a bit weird to me you just don't know how your class work

[gaunt flicker]

Or get Odie in here for a definitive answer

[dreamy crag]

@mortal surge just stop

there's no reason to continue

[mortal surge]

I agree. No point.

[gaunt flicker]

If it's such a well known fact it scales differently there should be some proof somewhere no?

[echo hornet]

it starts to look like a flat earth subreddit

[dreamy crag]

at this point I genuinely cannot tell if this is ragebait

surely it is

[spare pasture]

ah dont start me, you and your silly round earth, dumbo !

[mortal surge]

So let's move back to fair change if they are needed. And let's see if Gaheite will open a thread about BeoH scaling on top of HM when he will do the comparison fairly.
Chan Tall^^/^ and can't be active while Tall^^^ is here and other stuff shared here seems fair.

Bye ! 👋🏻

[echo hornet]

Channel gives you every t.buffs you can get. No more stacking and more control over your buffs.

[gaunt flicker]

Still have yet to get a straight answer to this question: What about the update changes the fact that one class is getting free DC most fights? It was broken in 1.0 so how do maluses change that exactly?

[dry folio]

That is probably it.

[ripe folio]

Idk how many different ways you want me to put it, you have no proof that it’s still a problem because pretty much no one is far enough along in 2.0 to see

Anguish 1.0 is very different from 2.0

[gaunt flicker]

Are there maluses that affect it specifically?

[ripe folio]

Idk yet, I’ve heard of a permeant status fade so probably

[rustic rampart]

Permanent statues fade doesn't affect temp buffs (at least it's not supposed to as per Odie) which imo has potential to make the deity line even stronger, but I'm only at Mel 6 so unsure as of rn

[orchid heart]

and for monster hybrid 3 + bestial bond lvl2? the free DC is not worth that

the free DC is useful only in tower, during ang 1.0 only

In raids, the proc 1 or 2 or even 3 turns does not change anything in reality

In a dungeon, you don't necessarily need it either

On the other hand, have a bestial bond lvl 2 + hybrid monster, which do you think is the most useful?

[rustic rampart]

I will say tho, for comparison, I'm really struggling at Mel 5/6 with BeoH, even with 0 farm gear Im needing full set up since ALs are so important for BeoH for dungeons

[rustic rampart]

BB2 is not that strong, you can get the same buffs but better from Ang gear bonuses

I will admit HM3 is strong, and makes BeoH the best in towers, but it's a massive struggle in dungeons

[dry folio]

Bb2 is basically just a consolation prize where you can maybe sometimes pick up ward turns. Well maybe not, that's mostly bb1.

[gaunt flicker]

Sorry but dc is way better than those 2 things. I'd trade for dc in a heartbeat

[worthy phoenix]

in what world is 20k mag and 26k att reasonable over 13k and 18k

[gaunt flicker]

DC isn't useful for towers in 2.0? That cannot be true

[gaunt mica]

mains of the 2 best classes in the game talking about which class is the most OP but I do agree beoh is hella strong, maybe OP as well. But honestly it might need its own thread (also didnt odie say he was going to nerf hybrid anyway at some point)

because hybrid as a whole is still kinda stupid. I can just use SS on heretic fine even tho I dont have access to lutes

[worthy phoenix]

you realize that if you nerf that we still get barrialus and still run same tier content

[orchid heart]

Yes no need 🤷‍♂️

[finite vector]

Well shoot, we need to discuss nerfing Heretic too then

[worthy phoenix]

dc was only used on d.ursa for ang 50 towers otherwise it was better to d.ara nuke

[finite vector]

How's Grand Summoner's SS3 looking? Do we need to nerf them too? xP

[gaunt mica]

better than heretic ss because they can use lute

[finite vector]

👀

On a more serious note -

Would Channelalus being t.All 1 and staying 1 turn be more reasonable in the context of Anguish 2.0? t.all 1 has a monstrous fade rate even when you stack up duration so it's still a nerf without shafting an ability.

Kyalexx's t.Mag 3 or t.Att 3 apex moves would also work though I don't think there's anything wrong with letting them proc as well since Base Deity already gets free DCs but also can use Channelalus

Seems like many people Deity and non-Deity alike are okay with losing a bit of dex, if I'm reading all of this correctly? (By bit: either going below RS or at least losing 100-200 so a couple pieces of gear is the equivalent)

Making base the prime hybrid seems to be have mixed reception though losing some amount of attack on Ara and magic on Ursa sounds generally okay

Weakness returned to UO also mixed reception - reasonable via how powerful Ang 2.0 enemies get

Removing negative stat fade from Staying Power or nerfing/removing Steadfast seems like it also got a mixed reception.

What am I missing as a general sum up so far?

[worthy phoenix]

yah nerf spiked shield for all classes again

[finite vector]

An actual nerf rather than a dispersion of power that makes it less fun/good in PvE and keeps it a problem in PvP would be nice but we don't need to derail the thread again xD Let Gilga run amok in PvE!

[mortal surge]

(just in case : simple way to avoid this is just running ang4 dungeons until you reach a point where you unlock enough AL. It's not really efficient to run ang5/6/7 I would say in dungeons)

[rustic rampart]

Anything that could be considered a "nerf" is gonna get a mixed reception at the end of the day, but here are some of my thoughts:

• Losing 100-200 dex is really not going to change anything I feel.
• I personally am not a fan of making base deity the prime hybrid as now we're stepping on BeoH's toes where HM/hybrid superiority is really the only identity it has left, as everything else in its kit (including hybrid technically) is available/usable by other classes but that gets a little off topic/It's hard for me not to be bias here.
• I feel this is reasonable but I can't see it really making much of a difference at the end of the day when it comes to dungeons (the spot where I feel deity is a little too strong).
• These abilities here are where deity reaches the state of having "too much" imo, it's not really 1 thing Deity that makes it so strong but more so just how much it has and because of this it can build so easily into anything and not have to worry about anything. Getting rid of steadfast would make building around deity require some more thought/planning.

Another point I've heard that could be interesting is getting rid of Ara's/Ursa's access to all gear types, maybe limit them to 2-3 each instead of all 4, this would give base Deity some identity back while achieving the point I made in the part about steadfast where it would put more thought into building with Deity.

[gaunt mica]

I interpret 'the prime hybrid' as making the celestials worse at hybrid stuff than base deity, not making base deity better at hybrid than it currently is. The gear restriction isnt a bad idea either, iirc that was how it was before the rework? But then everyone was complaining that the deity celestials couldnt use cele lute

[mortal surge]

Idea of reducing apex rate on horde content, with a necessity to use specific addorns/gear to benefit from it is also a big nerf in itself, for a class relying a lot on stats. It's something many people asked, both for tuning down deity and offer some more fun while creating builds

[rustic rampart]

Ahhh, I understand now, I feel going back to Ursa/Ara not having access to val/sum gear would be good, as it was mainly asked for (by me included) pre-apex update, but having both full gear availability and apex/bonus abilities feels like a little too much

[finite vector]

I do think the Ara/Ursa having restricted gear would be more interesting than what they are but I don't see that going over well

And yeah, a nerf will always be met with mixed reception. To me the goal would be to bring Deity down to be more in line with other classes in some regards to allow for some more Apex gear/abilities/power

As it is, any buff to Apex is pushing an overtuned class into too much

[mortal surge]

I agree with it. Just like we both agreed about it on the rework thread ! 😁

[finite vector]

I do think even just 100-200 dex would be more nlticeable than people think.

But its a bit of a moot point with the accuracy stuff and SS3 having fixed miss chance

Per the anguish 1.0 concerns, Deity isn't the only class that can run Ang50 towers and the actual issue is that anguish 1.0 is even allowed to be played right now as it is significantly more beneficial for proofs/mats (except maybe for PoA abuse) than 2.0

That doesn't mean Channelalus isn't an issue but I don't think that's where we should get hung up on here

[gaunt flicker]

First real answer I've got actually so ty

[finite vector]

Per the BeoH comparisons, I'd argue that BeoH has the primary t1 damage nuke but some pretty clear-cut weaknesses in my humble opinion. They're unfortunately mitigated quite a bit by fixed miss chance moves but I don't feel like we should be pulling out pitchforks from one class to the next.

But let's focus on the Deity discussion 😆

[mortal surge]

Dex ⬇️, chan tuned down and so on, I see most people ok with it, I m also ok. Especially if it means more apex gear/addorns and so on, more "fun" options (for builds and so on) is always nice.

[worthy phoenix]

my only input here is that if we remove debuff fade sf needs to stay or remove sf and keep sp debuff fade

[dreamy crag]

if chan is tall 1 wouldn't dara be useless outside of endless

because if so base deity would unironically be better

[deep harbor]

We've also explained over and over that you live in 1.0 and we use actual logic in 2.0 and nerfing any class right now is really dumb

[fickle cliff]

You can… Switch to deity!

[deep harbor]

Nerfing chan doesn't affect Dara at all. Dursa is the main culprit. It leaves essentially just Barrialus and sometimes eventualus as the only useful apex skills on it. And right now we have to use Channel on Dursa to even come close to damage as say BeoH or Gilga. If and as soon it gets hit I can probably almost guarantee BeoH will be the next target for future scaling issues but I believe BeoH is a good and balanced class tbh.

[dreamy crag]

beo is fucked

also dara uses chan, especially if you don't have positive buff duration

and not all dara raiding is quickcast

• not everyone uses or has aaru legs head

[deep harbor]

BeoA might be a monster when the anguish passives are fixed but we don't know yet. Like a few have said it's too early to tell with anything in 2.0. And as far as using chan on Dara I haven't used it once. Not when macaroni penguin exists and AP with blackened eyes, or if you have a hood

[dreamy crag]

It's absolutely fucked in hoa

People using ang 20 gerd gear to skyrocket raid ang

[deep harbor]

This is part of the issues here is people on HoA vs Orna. Regarding Beo anyway

[dreamy crag]

ehh

Questing beast is also a huge factor

Berserk + wyn speed 3

[deep harbor]

Nerf all the classes back to pre reworks well start from scratch in 2.0

[dreamy crag]

back to the rs swash days

take me home to crit gilga

[deep harbor]

#OrnaClassic

[deep harbor]

The cycle continues

[dreamy crag]

I mean balance was pretty fucked back then

So in comparison we have it pretty ok rn

And I'm not going back to unthemed dungeons

[deep harbor]

Fix the anguish passives and 2.0 is honestly in somewhat of a decent place minus GS and RS needing some love

And leave Mammoth alone for Gilga

[dreamy crag]

Ngl imma keep it real af I did not enjoy the nature events

As much as I hate event locking with phoenix stonewarg those 2 natureblight pets are way too good

[deep harbor]

All I'm gonna say is nerf channel and this is what's gonna happen. It's maybe a turn slower but even stronger than just Deity using DC and speeding along

Macaroni penguin cast is at a VERY good rate on the first turn with blackened eyes

That's without all the extra chests from towers stacked on top as well.

[gaunt flicker]

How am I supposed to take comments like this seriously? This comment is everything you guys have been accusing me of

[gaunt flicker]

A very real possibility if beo gets nerfed

[deep harbor]

So not our problem you can't get over 1.0. it's not triggering when you just can't comprehend what reasonable people are saying. You are the only one gunning for channel and other things SO hard. When there are DEITIES here giving honest feedback about reasonable nerfs. You have committed nothing to this entire discussion minus being well over your head in knowledge of 2.0 and how things are actually working, and just complaining about how Deity is broken in one specific thing maybe two if you count endless which imo doesn't really count for strength anymore

[gaunt flicker]

Channelalus is op, on a class that would still be one of, if not the best without it. I don't see any reason 2.0 will change that. If anything 2.0 will make it even more op since deity excels in higher anguish content. You can keep yelling about 2.0 all you want but you haven't been able to point me to any reason why it'll be different. Instead you make personal attacks which tells me all I need to know

[ionic fjord]

2.0 is different, you can see it yourself when you compare beoA before vs now

beoA used to be able to run ang50 on full farm gear and get a buttload of orns with little to no risk

nowadays it's different, because mobs' HP scales, so cactus isn't as "strong"

[deep harbor]

I've sent screenshots, we've sent facts, multiple people have. 2.0 has not made Deity OP it's actually locked into a few builds which other classes excel better at. Goudine gave you a full on breakdown and you still can't understand it

[deep harbor]

BeoA passives on anguish gear aren't functioning now but if they do properly it might be busted. But again we don't know until Odie fixes some things. I agree with this though

[ionic fjord]

or, as a counter-example, beoH could do boss horde ang50 with no buffs whatsoever

[deep harbor]

And run orn gear 🤷

But again that's 1.0

[ionic fjord]

beoH was mostly using living arch armor + spamming chained shield

but it was still mindless to the point where you didn't need to buff once

overall speaking, I think ang 2.0 is a good thing. and the more you progress, the more we'll see how maluses affect builds overall

[deep harbor]

And it's in a good spot right now (BeoH). Even with its broken stats. Probably best at a couple things now dex isn't a real issue on mobs, but raids are uhhhh yeah haha

[ionic fjord]

ang50 before vs ang50 now is a very, very different beast to tame

[gaunt flicker]

I spent all morning talking about channelalus and then the "proof" you showed me wasn't even using it 😂

[mortal surge]

(It's not the topic, but 2h buff drastically changed ang1.0 dungeons. It was BeoH swansong for quickest run on ang50 rather than CS)

[deep harbor]

Ang50 is neigh impossible raid wise according to Sirith

[ionic fjord]

yep yep, not mentioning quickest, just stating that beoH could do ang50 dungeons without any buffs whatsoever

[deep harbor]

My proof was a class 38 ALs lower doing more damage. At my ALs id need channel to even keep up. Good look , you're blind

[ionic fjord]

not sure if swansong could accomplish the same on beoH without buffs, wasn't too aware during the 2h buff + end of 1.0

(but yes, swansong go brrrr)

[dreamy crag]

trev>swansong, that point is basically indisputable for deity (and in most cases beoh too)

[deep harbor]

I can agree with that in 2.0 now on Dara. It's stupid satisfying

[ionic fjord]

to be fair, I wonder if this'll still be possible if/when the beoA anguished gear passives get sorted out. maybe it's a thing to look into

[gaunt flicker]

38 isn't really that much, and channelalus instantly doubles your damage as well as your defense

[deep harbor]

Lol you're out of your mind if you think 38 ALs doesn't stack like crazy with BoF

Def doesn't matter for speed and if it's already dead

Get out of your bubble sir

[deep harbor]

Changed towers as well

For 2.0 that is and overall

[gaunt flicker]

Here's the thing about ascension: What it actually does is let you get away with extremely aggressive gearing. Ascension by itself doesn't affect damage as much as people think. I know you're going to twist my words and say I said als don't affect damage but that's not it at all. It's the fact that the increased survivability from als lets you focus more on offense, which when compounded by the extra stats makes the damage differences we see and associate with high als. In reality, an al 50 isn't doing that much less than an al 100, certainly not 50% less, if they both have the exact same gear, class, and build. So no I don't think 38 als is that much

[deep harbor]

Focusing on offense more because defense yeah and my offense is still lower

Gaheite I mean this in the nicest way possible but I hope you step on water with socks on everyday for the rest of your life

[mortal surge]

Are you now explaining 50 AL compared to 100 is not twice but simply 150 compared to 200 ? I guess everyone know it here tbh

I guess ORN have enough ideas for a feedback with changes suggested maybe

[deep harbor]

ORN has alot of feedback going on 😂

Kinda feel bad for the team. Odie comes back from vacation and the office is on fire

[mortal surge]

You re right. Let's not forget to add here and there a message to thank Odie/NF for his insane and wonderful job for ang2.0. Overall, it's brilliant.
Just in case, it's absolutely not ironic, hoping for a change to balance things doesn't mean I don't appreciate what has been done.

[deep harbor]

SS/CS maluses when? This is the future for ALL SS/CS classes. Gilga does it better and BeoH does it slower. Nerf them too while we are at it

Note this is with easy to obtain gear and just two duration amities with ward regen

[dreamy crag]

not happening

[deep harbor]

Why though? Crit builds get crushed as well as followers

[dreamy crag]

followers dont

[deep harbor]

Yes they do? Action and protection rate. Ask @rustic rampart how those stack up

With crit being hit

[dreamy crag]

comfortably doing al 28

100 al or smth

[deep harbor]

HoA 20% easier. Also just wait. It gets substationally worse

Also t8 snakes don't count

[dreamy crag]

ofc it gets substantially worse

that's the nature of adding 16% flat stats

[deep harbor]

Not the flat stats. The maluses adding up

[dreamy crag]

he does it without batting an eye

[dreamy crag]

you just do it slower

it doesnt get capped

asg

[deep harbor]

Which is why they don't count. Easy raid

[dreamy crag]

yeah he does the same thing with actual raids

[deep harbor]

Okay your right. I'm wrong. I only had a conversation with him about how much it sucks to raid as BeoH

Down the road anyway. Also those follower action maluses add up. As well as the others

[dreamy crag]

beoh is not a raiding class

[deep harbor]

Excuse me? All classes are a raiding class technically

BeoH is the best way to SS3 raids so that's false

[dreamy crag]

at 21

[dreamy crag]

dursa is

[deep harbor]

I meant on Beo and your wrong there Gilga is

[dreamy crag]

yeah and some are much better

[dry folio]

holy actual shit the follower protect loss

[dreamy crag]

gilga is a different story entirely

[dreamy crag]

doesnt matter if you take all ward damage

[deep harbor]

I'm gonna give you the Gaheite treatment. In the nicest way possible. I hope you stub your toe on the sharpest corner in your house everyday

[dry folio]

I'm learning that as a baby BeoA at agony 10 on orna now.

[deep harbor]

Enjoy those ults that go past ward eventually

[dreamy crag]

pretty sure follower stats dont scale with ang in orna as of rn

[dreamy crag]

yeah and that's bugged too lol

[dry folio]

Yeah, waiting on that

[dreamy crag]

shield has 900000% ult protect

regardless he'll still survive

[deep harbor]

I don't think so I think it's an actual ult unless Odie stated otherwise

[dreamy crag]

kiki

's doing fine

[deep harbor]

🤷

[dreamy crag]

idk, empirical evidence is enough for me

[deep harbor]

Enjoy 35+

On actual raids not t8 snakes

[dreamy crag]

oh no my linearly decreasing gains

whatever shall i do

[deep harbor]

Die

Again and again

And stub your toes

Over and over

[ripe folio]

Ight, as funny as this is to watch, how about we circle back to deity

[deep harbor]

You're not my dad, but I agree.

[deep harbor]

Was just showing also how broken SS/CS is in 2.0 not just for Deity

But sorry I digress

[rustic rampart]

Crit builds get destroyed by crit maluses, for example if you have 2x 40% crit Amities + 5x prom hands lute but "-41% crit Dmg" you are going from 3.155x crit damage to 1.862x crit dmg

[deep harbor]

These don't affect Asg though right?

Minus action/prot rate BeoA is kinda untouched?

Let's move this sorry, I'm short wiring the chat again

[rustic rampart]

That's due to a current bug where pet act rate/Prot and such is determined by your world loadout not raid loadout

But also there is another bug where anguish follower stats just don't work currently

[ripe folio]

You do know that’s how they were when celestial originally dropped right?

[hexed hinge]

Yes, someone suggested reverting that change so I figured it's worth polling

[mortal surge]

Here are some change I could agree with (maybe not all at the same time !) :

• hp (+mana ?) ⬇️ for Dara, mana ⬇️ for Dursa. It's a straight nerf to survivability, (HP/ward)
• Chan remains 1 turn, but it is a Tall^ when apex is higher than 50% but not fully charged, and Tall^^ when fully charged, and it can't stack with Tall^^^ (it disappear if DC). It may adress both concerns we ve seen here for tower, and pvp (the 2cnd chance into Chan)
• Same kind of things for Barri
• reducing att on Dara, mag on Dursa
• for Dara, slightly increase mag but reducing apex bonus from 100% to 80%, with this slightly mag boost not able to go higher than our current one when we re at 100%. Not sure it's understandable, but the idea is to reduce Dara abilities in endless and long horde content (= dungeons) while helping a bit in tiny fight (tower, despair)
• dex ⬇️, below RS
• reducing apex rate on horde content, so we need to use apex gear/addorns in order to benefit from what we have currently without any need of using it. It's a power nerf, especially for a class relying partly on stat (removing JoC for those addorns is straight nerf, as it reduce stats, but also require to build carrefully, as it won't be that easy to have full crit + full apex rate build for exemple)
• slightly* reducing Def on Dara, Res on Dursa. *Because of the previous point
• gear restrictions back
• SF1 rather than 2
• Toff buff can't stack for more than 2, with a change to the chance for each proc (with Tmag^ having a higher chance than Tmag^^, wich have a higher chance than Tmag^^^ for exemple)
• fading chance tied to the current apex charge (= if you deceide to use an apex skill, you know you have more chance to suffer from status longer)
• 2cnd chance proc reduced if it already proc before. Back to normal for new encounter/floor, and slowly back to normal on same encounter/floor. Idea is to avoid some issues shared on PvP mainly, but it would also be a small nerf in pve

As said earlier in this thread, if those kind of nerf appear, it should be balanced with some more "fun" with real apex addorns/gear and probably some more usefull apex skills, I guess

Alright, I took a SS in case someone claim again Deity main are not ok with some change ^^
Have a nice day all ! 🎉

[spare pasture]

Gear restriction back mean no valhalan/summ gear for celestials but still available for base right?

[echo hornet]

gear restricted DUrsa means less options for Swash so it's a hard no for me.

[orchid heart]

You might as well put deity in class t9 as well 🥲

I don't understand this whole thread when deity is clearly not an OP class

There will always be a class that surpasses deity no matter what the activity

And don't tell me about PVP please 😂

[ripe night]

What class is better in endless?

[orchid heart]

Gs ?

[ripe night]

Xd

No

[orchid heart]

Lol ?

You can literally do 1000/2000 floor in gs

[ripe night]

We were comparing results and a 50AL got almost 4x the orns of a 100AL GS in the same time

[orchid heart]

Show me a main deity with 2k floor endless

[ripe night]

You can only get that far abusing stasis which means no earnings

[orchid heart]

There's a screen with a gs winning 300m orns for 1 zerk

In 1 boss he almost made my endless

@buoyant shuttle What's your endless record in stuff orns?

[buoyant shuttle]

I never did the A50 shenanigan

and i almost never did endless until i could avoid it

[rose sage]

this has to be a rage bait

[buoyant shuttle]

but i think it's not correct to compare single "achievements" at all , all that matters is orns/hour

and the additional element which cannot be underestimated that it's EXCEPTIONALLY LESS MIND-CONSUMING to setup deity endless

like GS at some point in some combos might maybe do better by suffering 100x

that's not close because it's not sustainable

[orchid heart]

Ofc I don't say otherwise about this

[buoyant shuttle]

i did more endless with deity in 3 months hoccing

than with gs

in 2+ years

like 5x more endless with deity (like 20 vs 4)

it was a breeze and almost funny vs "far worse than going to an ikea on saturday to buy a chair"

but anyway for orns even excluding the physical pain and need to vomit with setup, deity is > gs

not by much

[orchid heart]

But in the end it comes down to the same thing, you make a longer and bigger endless but that pays more
If I don't say stupidity, Ebichu was AL150 and took 2/3b for 1 day of endless

[buoyant shuttle]

but deity needs better item to achieve that so there is that

lol

1 day means how many hours?

deity optimized al 150 can do 600-700m / hour

at almost 0 effort

i mean lumeria quit with like 30bln orns

AL 210-220

pretty sure gunnick (sorry for spelling) touched 1bln/hour with some lucky deep run

[orchid heart]

Lumeria has a lot of farm in open world especially

[ripe night]

Deities are getting a lot more orns/hour than a GS, there’s no question to that

[buoyant shuttle]

before with beo

but later he hocced deity

not 4x oro

maybe 1.3-1.5x

optimized vs optimized

but let me re-state, deity needs optimal gear to achieve best

GS doesn't, that can be relevant for a while

[ripe night]

#👋│general message

[buoyant shuttle]

like having 2 198+ a terror and insane amities and 195+ legs etc matters more, your breakpoint

is later so you go deeper

gs breakpoint don't depend on gear

[orchid heart]

a some high lvl endless no.
can be at low level

[buoyant shuttle]

that's an al 49 vs a lvl 245 lol how is that

evena comparison??

[buoyant shuttle]

i made more deity al 173 than gs al 181

not insanely more

a bit more

wwith 1/100 the effort

anyway as per title of the channel, deity is clearly broken

as is beoh

heretic is the balanced class that can do anything but isn't broken

rs/gilga are like running with 1 leg vs 2 legs for the 3 other classes

gs is tetraplegic

[ripe night]

Not comparing against the 245 GS

Just wanted you to check the orns

No AL50 GS is getting 800M in 40 mins

By that point they haven’t even finished the setup

[buoyant shuttle]

not sure he actually did the 40 min

but yes "2-3 bln in a day" isn't anything big if you play consistently during event

also maybe he has 2 obogs we need the details

[orchid heart]

It was at an ancient time that I spoke to you

[buoyant shuttle]

?

btw these talks are the reason why people stop giving the numbers

[orchid heart]

He has been at least 1 and a half years since he was afk ebichu

[buoyant shuttle]

because if someone optimizes everything and does really well

then others ask for nerfing

[ripe night]

It all started because that person started saying GS is better in endless, which is completely wrong in terms of orns per hour, which is the only thing that matters when doing endless, really

So that would be it

[buoyant shuttle]

ye e i agree i was talking more generally

deity right now is

second best in torment tower

tied to best in dungeons

best in endless

very strong in raids but not best (still TBD , unclear what works anguish 20+ exactly)

[orchid heart]

We didn't talk about orns per hour at the beginning, I told you that gs was stronger in endless and managed to exceed the 2k floors

[buoyant shuttle]

it's just too good across the board

[orchid heart]

And to counter me you started with the orns

[buoyant shuttle]

the onl reason to do edless is orns

[ripe night]

Depth doesn’t matter if it takes a GS 3/4 times longer to get there, that’s the only thing that matters

What’s the purpose of endless?

Depth?

[ripe night]

.

[ripe night]

Pretty much

[buoyant shuttle]

doesn't take 3-4 times longer

[orchid heart]

But asking for a nerf from a class for all this I don't understand

[buoyant shuttle]

but it's more painful to setup

[ripe night]

Setup takes easily around an hour, and the summons take longer to get through floors since there are a lot more animations

[buoyant shuttle]

teralys a class shouldnt be close to best or best at all content lol

[buoyant shuttle]

in a hour you setup 5 dungeons

which almost no 1 ever does regardless because then you die inside doing them

[ripe night]

If you do a proper setup nah, not 20 mins

Only if you really rush it

And miss buffs and all

[orchid heart]

For raids, it's far from the top tier class

[buoyant shuttle]

was true before anguish

isn't anymore with anguish

[echo hornet]

The problem i have with some proposition in this thread is that deity is built in a way one small change can morph it from almost best everywhere to hot shit almost everywhere. Juste remember the stat of deity few years ago, it was depressing. All I say is the balance should be done adequately.

[buoyant shuttle]

there is no need to qualitatively change anything

just nerf everything across the board a bit

-5/10% all stats for ex

lower proc chance for the tbuffs

smaller everything a bit

[orchid heart]

Mmh Heretic is clearly not to be pitied and allows hard rush raids, I still tested it recently and it is much more efficient than deity

Beo, let's not even talk about it

[buoyant shuttle]

you tested heretic anguish 20-25 in raids solo ?

and it doesn't die very often?

[echo hornet]

this, for example. att+++ is 5% chance to proc, how can you ask for a lower chance ?

[buoyant shuttle]

can be 5% vs 1 target and lower multiple targets

[orchid heart]

Ang 17 with the Warren build corvus yes work perfectly

[buoyant shuttle]

lugus is 3 and it requires a slot

and for a long time it was used

how is 5 low lol

[echo hornet]

One thing I mentioned earlier was a chance to this kind of proc chances across the board (including things like avidity) where you've the same chance hitting 1 or 5 enemies. At the same time you increase chances across the board so you've better chances vs 1 enemy like raids, and it has lower chances that today against multiple enemies like dungeons.

[buoyant shuttle]

so you want a buff

we are discussing nerfs...

deity should just do whatever it does today, the same

but worse

no change in mechanics or anything, just worse numbers

keep in mind one thing: equipping all gear is a massive benefit that should cost in other dynamics

everything else should be lower than average vs classes that don't equip all gear

that's a basic thing which deity and beoh don't have which is the absurd problem

like RS att should be A LOT HIGHER , like A LOT, likle 20-30% higher

[echo hornet]

it's only a buff in places it's bad anyway, and a nerf where it's problematic

[buoyant shuttle]

than beoh or deity

hera mag, same

deity dex is absurd and should be nerfed

and so on

i mean why does it have the highest stats, + equip all gear, + relevant temp buff + staying power for those buffs + apex

what the what is that

[mortal surge]

#1390521880124981266 message

[earnest shore]

Bestial bond is like one of the worst things on beo. Usually they have nothing usefull. Only niche one is gwylgis bb

[buoyant shuttle]

lol

[echo hornet]

RS has 48% more attack than deity... and it deals more crit damage

[buoyant shuttle]

bestial bond is the reason everyone in the game HAS TO use beo for mnemonic hunting unless they have the impossible BB1+100 reward amity 2x

[obsidian ether]

why are we discussing bb?

bb1 is useful, but its available for everyone
bb2 is useless on beoh 99% of the time
on beo/beoA
bb3 is sometimes a - thing to have rather than a +

[earnest shore]

Most bb3 actually make the pets worse

[buoyant shuttle]

it's available to everyone if you have godtier amities, otherwise you give up on a bis amity line which is not nothing at all

[finite vector]

#takeittothet11discussion 😆

[obsidian ether]

even though i agree, it is still available
and i cant see memory hunt fights becoming an issue honestly

[earnest shore]

Beastial bonds should be fully unique to beoline instead of being shared to every class but gs

[buoyant shuttle]

beos can farm despair while doing mnemonics, everyone else can't, that's about it

[earnest shore]

Also t8/9 god line has bb1 so you dont need to go beo for the bb1

[echo hornet]

it sould have stay unique to Beo, but also income bonuses shouldn't have been added to pets which is the reason why we have BB1 on amity now

[earnest shore]

I agree

[echo hornet]

you also have it on tamer, this one is somewhat acceptable tho

[earnest shore]

I dont mind the other utility stuff on those ( vd )

[buoyant shuttle]

BB shouldn't be nerfed but it's tiring for people playing a class, having a benefit, and downplaying it

also given hoc is free from conq guild people shouldn't stan for a class, everyone has access to all classes anyway

[finite vector]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-gif-16622029953535141160

[echo hornet]

I don't really ask for a BB nerf, just remove the unfair advantages of it like memory / tower shards / vd

[obsidian ether]

this one wont happen until ||never|| AL is an account thing rather than a class, lmao

[primal dew]

That's lemon tho. Lemon normally exeggariting everything.

Imo he has regular ultima build with questing offhand, no Terror. Mid pants... definetly not achievable in 40 mins for him.

And yea....timewise orn/hour is Deity better than GS.

Like this deep run with f600 with oracle and f850 after with ultima and triple his ALs....so compare that to him. 🤷‍♂️

[primal dew]

well, I gave all my endless numbers through my gameplay, avg gain/hour, buffs, videos, everything ...

and tbh even before deity rework, deity was one of best (#837372042985996319 message)

that's why I was kinda worried that whole rework will boost deity in way he don't need to and it won't adress almost any of it's weak point ...and it did happen

[echo hornet]

comparing orn gains in endless is quit stupid considering how tremendous the difference is between quality BoG and beggar BoG

[dreamy crag]

regardless deity is still definitely the best at endless

define best as least effort for most orns

sure gs goes ultra late but you need at least an hour to set up

deity setup is most literally 5 minutes

beoa aegir (fyeti
beoh raider (berserk
dara (penguin/bird

[echo hornet]

I'm not denying that, it's just completely pointless to compare player A and player B orns gain and say player A class is broken

[dreamy crag]

I mean I kinda backread a bit

And yeah deity is broken in endless

There's no debate in that

Only class that can come close is gs

idk why everyone's comparing deity and gs when every other class is just completely dog at endless

especially without al

[worthy phoenix]

I just use beo raider with steward golem it does everything I need buff wise and then phoenix after that

[dreamy crag]

logic is the same

Beoa pet act, aegir balor ward

beoh raider, book of dragon

Dara xyz

[worthy phoenix]

Yah I swap gear on beo (have beoh and base beo. No beoa for me)

[dreamy crag]

what no wf does to a mf

yeah that's another problem

in hoa you can subsist on just world farming

but orna is just endless

afaik

[worthy phoenix]

Endless and horde hard boss but 1 is unsustainable and the other is worse than it was with 2.0 release

[dreamy crag]

Yeah

[worthy phoenix]

Can we just make HOA the hardest version of orna

Give them dex fs HP scaling all in 1

[opaque timber]

Please ask the hoa community before yapping randomly about the gameplay of everyone. Thanks

[worthy phoenix]

I'm an hoa player and I know that ang 1.0 was to easy ang 2 is still easy for world farm stuff instead of pinging me about asking the HOA community add something constructive to the thread thank you

[opaque timber]

Yes. Like making hoa harder instead of spouting nonsense in a deity tread.

[worthy phoenix]

We were discussing endless for orna and world farm for your easy game

[fickle cliff]

These polls must not be up very long as I wasn’t able to vote… maybe leave them up a bit longer?

[ripe folio]

Depends, what are you gonna vote for?

[spare pasture]

These polls were non-sense anyway

[dim shard]

Can someone please sum me up what is Happening in here?
So far i've just read unrealistic demands and weird comparisons towards people who are much more invested in the game, and therefore are much stronger.
And i dont see much talk about amitys, cause the best deity players shine because of them, their class wont do a lot at that point, it just has good attack stats & no equipment restrictions, thats why most default to deity as a vessel that doesnt require much thought compared to other classes, for comfort.

I personally play deity because i dont have to deal with dots, and because im not equipment restricted. I think having this much dex is unnecessary, so is second chance (which shouldnt exist on players in the first place).
I dont see how stripping everything away from deity out of spite (in regards to the polls) will do anybody a favor and not make us all switch to beo hydrus while NF makes a fortune in hearts of change?

TLDR; I dont understand whats going on, this doesnt seem like a discussion to balance a class realistically, this seems like a general spite thread to punish the people who play their favorite class out of comfort - and noone realises the power of amitys which are a big point for this classes power.
Would love a summary of whats going on

[primal dew]

You made it yourself.

Most concern is about:

• 1. Deity should be jack of all trades, not best in several contents over other more restricted classes;
• 2. Deity being immortal tanks, which gives him huge advantage in harder parts of game;
• 3. Deity have too much passives, which synergy too well (but that's usually tied to PvP);
• 4. Deity has no real weakness;
• 5. Deity stats are too high.

Some possible ways +/-:

• temp buffs only +/++
• active t.att/t.mag +++ buff from apex
• channealus 2 turns (so still 1 turn for DUrsa and DAra/Seq)
• restrict apex gain 20% per round (big nerf to horde content, as you would be able to get +20% passive every 6th round if full AoE)
• nerf dex under RS
• sligthly nerf def/res
• some of nerf to SF:
  • SF2 into SF1
  • make more types of SF1/2/3 while Deity have some lower one
  • delete SF while rise debuff fade passive
  • delete debuff fade passive
• DUrsa/DAra equipment restriction

[hexed hinge]

Thanks Gurnn!

[hexed hinge]

@dim shard the polls aren't meant to be taken as a comprehensive list of nerfs I am asking for, but rather as a series of possible options so that we can gauge community sentiment. Honestly if there was a clear majority of players saying they think deity is very reasonably balanced I would have no problem with shelving this topic, but I think the wide volume of people whose responses including from some prominent high level deity mains indicate that deity is an outlier.

This post isn't meant to be about burning deity to the ground and leaving it with like a 4 turn channelalus and inflicting self nerfs instead of buffs or something like that. I think that deity is disproportionately stronger than any other class, and I specifically think some level of nerfs are good for the game. Otherwise you end up with even more power creep than we already have which is something of a point of contention as is.

[fickle cliff]

If this post isn’t about burning deity to the ground maybe a better title would be, “Tuning Deity for Healthier Class Balance”. Nerfing has pretty negative connotations in my mind.

[dry folio]

I don't know, the mental image of Deity players going straight to jail is getting a smirk out of me.

[hexed hinge]

Let's FINE TUNE Deity! (Small nerfs only please)

[hexed hinge]

I hope people can reduce those connotations because nerfing isn't inherently bad, but I updated the title for clarity's sake because I want this to be a thread that is serious about making meaningful changes to the class while leaving it in a healthy state. In my mind, deity being able to handle all content reasonably well without over performing in content that specific classes specialize in, while trying to preserve the current overall player power level, would be the ideal end goal, even if that isn't necessarily realistic.

[echo hornet]

TBF with the polls, the only conclusive data you can get from it is that only around 20 people care about it.

[hexed hinge]

Sure. I never claimed they were meant to be conclusive, there's obviously nowhere near enough data for it to be statistically meaningful when you compare it with the size of Orna/HoA's playerbase, but I think that if nothing else it shows that it's worth discussion, regardless of whether or not you want nerfs or think they're warranted. The polls at the very least provide clear discussion points and indicate there is some degree of player interest and I think that fact shouldn't be ignored.

[deep harbor]

I will say as a Deity player and against big nerfs that a lot of people that main Deity and are endgame also voted in those polls for tweaks to our own class so take some weight into that. Good with tweaks, definitely don't wanna see massive nerfs

[dull coyote]

I want to understand where is the correlation between being high AL and having more weight to the discussion ? Some of us willingly didn’t ascend for a variety of reasons and we’ve been around forever in this game. It doesn’t mean our voice is lesser than somebody who’s been « powering » one way or another for 1 year and is 50 AL more. Also there is a big part of luck in the mats and blocks. Different goals, different gameplay. I just wanted to remind people that.

Now.. to add to the discussion, something I would be ok to see is all the temps up we’ve got are indeed adding up quite quickly and maybe need to have a different « timing  or frequency ». Playing Dursa i find myself quite often with temp 2 and 3 att up in not a lot of turns for example. Maybe that could be changed, « tuning down » damage or rather slowing down the pace.

[deep harbor]

Not even going to get started there but just saying higher ALs GENERALLY means we've played the class longer, more weighted input, and therefore meaning if we even vote for some tweaks there's meaning behind it. Don't act like it's a pity party that I don't care about lower ALs because that's not what it meant. People who have more mats and ALs have ran more stuff in the game so please don't twist my meanings and words. Note this isn't trying to be mean. End rant.

[deep harbor]

Turning down dmg imo isn't the issue anymore when other classes run higher damage (with normal amities). More or less survivability while maintaining decent damage has been the issue at hand

[dim shard]

Thank you for this summary!

Quick rundown:
1 - i get that
2 - overplayed, but tanky
3 - PvP will never be balanced, but yes second chance should just not exist for players in PvP in general
4 - i mean beeing weak against the most potent spell in the game is a pretty dominant weakness for PvP, and randomly dying to a weak hit too, no other class has something as strong of a weakness as this
5 - yes

Top to bottom:

• too much
• too hard of a nerf
• too hard of a nerf, would need to be ursa-exclusive
• would need to adjust ara passive, stacking with it in anything but horde is already very annoying compared to any other class getting its class buff (summoner hydrus is the only exception, but thats a completely different problem child)
• yes, dex nerf is completely fair
• also def res nerf slightly is completely fair
• Ara already has SF1 afaik. For PvP i dont mind, but SF2 is THE reason i picked deity, losing that would be very sad, and i would probably Switch to realm
• redundant
• would be a way
• would be a way
• would defeat the biggest fun on deity

People seem to pretend deity is the ultra god class of this game and everything else is trash compared.
Cant really see it this way.

[dull coyote]

Honestly I won’t start yet another argument here because that’s not worth it.
Then, the difference between somebody with 10Al and the one with 30 is going to be how many times you ran the exact same dungeon 200 times more. I am just making an example with numbers but let’s not all act like there is anything exceptional between somebody who is running 20 dungeons a day for 5 years and played all classes equally and the one doing 200 with the exact same build and exact same button to press on one class for 2 years. I don’t think the one with 2 years and 30AL knows more than the e one with 10AL and 5 years. Sorry to break it down

[dim shard]

Yeah i dont see me outdamaging any RS or Heretic with equal equipment.
Often times its less, sometimes its more, thats the nature of the temps. I dont like the randomness, but its how it is.

[dull coyote]

I was just trying to remind everybody that the mechanics are the same. The grind is day in day out exactly the same. Only numbers change.

[deep harbor]

No point in starting an argument. I disagree completely, all there is to it. Let's move on

[deep harbor]

Add a SS/CS malus watch Deity tank in stuff. I'd say change dex a bit and nerf channel if that's the major issue and call it a day

[dim shard]

Good idea, if you dont want deity to be an option in high anguish.
Channelalus is fine, just not on dursa. Change it exclusively.
If you just set it to 2 turns, it needs a slight buff in other departments (dmg reduction while channeling, ward turns while channeling).

Dex, yes, i fully understand

I still think the reason people hate on deity is mostly dursa and second change getting 80% stats.
Cause noone likes fighting deitys in pvp, somehow even less then summoner which is a suprise for me

[deep harbor]

The damage reduction would be neat kinda like heretics. If a def/res and dex nerf were to happen I would embrace that

And in PvP Rend Epee still exists

[gaunt mica]

So classes that cant use SS cant tackle high anguish according to you?

Why shouldnt there be SS maluses if there exist maluses for crits, aoe etc

[ripe night]

Why is that a surprise?

[gaunt mica]

Summoner: easy oneshot
Deity: 1-2 second chances, big stat boost if they second chance, tons of misses due to their dex.

[still halo]

Simple, because they can't be one-shotted that easily. As soon as you have enough offensive power GS' are easy prey.

Arguing around this and bringing GS to a Deity nerf-defense is ... funny

[dreamy crag]

anyone that hates fighting dursa should hate beoh and gilga before that

[dim shard]

Noooo dont give them tools to actually counterplay, PvP is broken and unbalanced and deity is too strong

[dim shard]

I wish. with their terrible hp pool, the 20% chance to not die amity is pretty great, also, follower protect chance is annoyed as hell. Its about the same to Fight a Summoner who has an actual good pvp loadout when it comes to denying oneshots, but if i dont oneshot them, i get 5 dots in addition.

[gaunt mica]

Nah man youre trolling. Youve got to be kidding me

[dim shard]

Fully valid, not gonna pretend that summoner is the frail no defensive options class ppl want it to be portrayed.

[dim shard]

Morwan is pretty terrible to kill in PvP. Pretty great defensive summoner build.
Just cause almost noone does it right doesnt mean its not there.

[gaunt mica]

Ever since I hoced to heretic Im winning so many more war defenses, and heretic worse on defense than deity. Gs has no second chance, no stats. Youre really dishonest if you really believe gs is anywhere near as good as deity on defense

[ripe night]

What are their stats like?

[dim shard]

So oracle & 2 x 20% chance to avoid damage + protect chancey the insane amount of dots, the insane M1, does not exist?
Dishonesty. Ok. I see.
Im not saying its better at defense then deity, im saying its more annoying to kill. Deity can setup (like heatnick does), GS cannot.
Doesnt mean initially, its that big of a difference.

If its just oneshotting, GS kills me if i dont get it, or petrifies, stuns and freezes me while basically almost killing me in one turn.
Tho with protect + the right amities, its not as easy to oneshot. Just cause people go paper and dont think ahead doesnt mean GS cant build against onetaps.

[gaunt mica]

parapet doesnt stack my dude. And there is no insane amount of dots if they dont survive to the second turn, and dots dont even kill you

[misty junco]

...does this guy not just use AoE or something?

Protect chance doesn't even do shit anymore in PvP, no?

[ripe night]

It doesn’t, summon protection was nerfed to the ground in PvP

[misty junco]

He's probably attributing GS to that one Beomo-something, but that's going off-topic here

[still halo]

Protect chance does not work, imo, at least it is not noticeable compared to other survival tools like 2nd chance.
The topic is Deity, btw, not 'Why Deity and GS are nearly equal in PVP defense'. So please stop the derailing.

[misty junco]

Not really derailing if SF2 goes untouched due to band wagon regarding Deity of all things getting status'd by GS of all things in PvP

[finite vector]

Summon Protect Chance needed to be nerfed to the ground in PvP and it took 2 years for it to happen 😅

Maybe something can come back though when they get their rework as BeoA Jord with 2 amities and Bone Mammoth is nearly as bad

To the topic of Deity, though- The issue isn't Steadfast or Steadfast 2, it's that Steadfast II and fade rates on Staying Power is gross

The Celestials are at an interesting spot having SF 1 and fade rates

Base could have SF2 to SF1 and basically be no different

There are all kinds of ways to go about dispersing Deity's power without wrecking the class, shafting its current identity, or making it unplayable

[burnt sparrow]

True, this and dex, after 80% redline, a RS can barely hit Deity due to massive dex boost from +80% stat

[ripe folio]

So everyone wants to nuke deity because of PvP?

[worthy phoenix]

If anything make it so that d.ursa is thief warrior valhallan only and d.ara is mage warrior valhallan only

[ripe folio]

No that’s arguably worse, dursa uses a bunch of mage armor for Swash and other related things

[worthy phoenix]

Everyone wants to burn deity down because it's ability to work through late endgame content. Eg ang 50 towers

[ripe folio]

It shouldn’t be any tbh. Being able to use everything is kinda the whole point

[ripe folio]

Who’s doing anguish 50 towers at this point in 2.0?

[worthy phoenix]

Uh no it doesn't specially with a beastfelled chest and beguiled y gear in theif/warrior giving minimal def and a ton of mana. I mean look at abyss builds for any content he runs. There's even pumpkinless gear that is better for swash anyways

[worthy phoenix]

1.0 towers which has fs scaling and dex scaling

[ripe folio]

Oh so everyone does what abyss does then?

[worthy phoenix]

Everyone kinda follows abyss builds yah

Abyss trys everything

And has mastered every class

[ripe folio]

I don’t know how many times I got to say this, anguish 1.0 is not the same as 2.0 can we please stop saying that they are

[worthy phoenix]

No one said they're the same

If they were the same then fs scaling and dex scaling would still be an issue

People Wana burn deity to the ground because of ang 1.0

And because of how good it is currently in 2.0

[ripe folio]

Fine can we please stop saying nerf deity because of its performance in anguish 1.0 when that’s being phased out. Fair enough?

[worthy phoenix]

For example abyss running the Avalon griphen thingy at ang 40+ in like 2 mins

Are you a deity main?

Are you deep in ang 2.0 content

[mortal surge]

(Deity main or not not sure this helps the thread tbh)

[worthy phoenix]

Most of the actual feedback given here is from people who main deity have more than 100+ als and know that it needs tuned back

[ripe folio]

Yeah I’ve also had a very long day at work and I’m kinda annoyed already so I apologize if you’re not trying to be rude or anything

[worthy phoenix]

Even I as an Al 49 know it's over tuned and needs to be changed a bit to not be so much better than all other classes

[ripe folio]

I’m ok with it being dialed back a bit, I just don’t understand the let’s nerf it to the ground crowd

[mortal surge]

Changes should indeed be fair, and that's I guess what everyone is hoping for. There have been some nice suggestions about it already.

[worthy phoenix]

It's specifically because they saw deity's doing ang 50 1.0 towers with like 150 als but no other class came close it's because the ease that abyss has shown running content in ang 40?+ That should be difficult and he just breezes through it. Because over time with als deity ends up being a stronger class currently than any other class other than maybe beoh

[ripe folio]

If someone has 150 Al’s and speed run things, they deserve it

Abyss blows up everything because it’s abyss. The man’s the orna version of Chuck Norris 😂

[mortal surge]

It's not as simple as that tbh. As stated a bit earlier, issue is to be fair with those changes, as a bit too much could also mean destroying the class.
(By the way, about ang 50 tower, no one used to run it as a routine. It used to be better, for 150/200 AL, to run around 30 for nice and smooth enough run, just for some context)

[deep harbor]

We can't base everything on Abyss (yes I know I posted a video) but the dude has maxed gear and ridiculous amities to make it work. The vast majority of players dont

[worthy phoenix]

Yes but when no other class could do it without 200?+ Als correct me if I'm wrong that's why they have an issue with it. And as for abyss if you recreate his build to gear within 5% of his you can do exactly what he's doing at the same lvl

[worthy phoenix]

No Ik but this is part of where the deity hate crowd stems I think

[deep harbor]

I could agree to that partially lol

Same with if a Gilga like Essenric hits max etc. everyone wants to burn power at the stake 😂

[worthy phoenix]

People don't realize how easy it is to recreate the build minus amities

And amities well you just gotta get lucky and farm them

[deep harbor]

It's easy to recreate but to be AS efficient it requires the amities.

[worthy phoenix]

Yah and that's just a game of RNG and hitting brick wall with bigger wall in abyss terms

[mortal surge]

Beo/Gilga Al 200 are more than decent for it in ang1.
And about what you re refering too (ang40 raids), Gilga has easier time compared to deity, assuming same AL and same gear quality.
But those details may not really help this thread.
On the other hand, there have been several deity main who shared some suggestions based on particular points that may be fair, if talking about balance

[deep harbor]

Amities make or break builds no matter what class you're on now. I wish more people would realize that. Deity needs some minor tweaks but the major of power for any class is the right amities

[worthy phoenix]

I only heard story's of deity's doing it because of chanalus d.ursa with the ability to be hit by enemies to make you even tankier

And it was Al 150ish deity's doing this

[mortal surge]

No need to take it, it was fine with full hp ^^
What I'm saying is it's maybe a bit more complicated that what you're currently saying. On the rework thread, we were several players concerned with some choice made, and the suggestions we shared here are basicaly what we already thought.

[ripe folio]

Still think channelus should be ^^ not ^^^

[mortal surge]

Again, what happen on challenge run is not what happened on everyday run. Not trying to say deity was bad at tower, it indeed was really strong, but it's not like people used to run ang50 tower with 150 (or even 200) on everyday run.
If you want some data, here is what I can share on the ang50 topic : one of the best deity player (meaning a player known for his love for challenge here and there), on AL around 160+, was AFAWK, the first one to achieve this, and it took one hour+.
Yes, it's absolutely fair to say deity performed really well in tower, but not as well as you would think if talking into account several factors

I still totally agree with some suggestions made higher on this thread.

[ripe folio]

I agree with some, I think others are just bad ideas though like the limiting apex to 20. With how Dara is that takes a minimum of like 30 max apex gain turns to fully load a 100% passive. Realmshifter can do that in what like 5 turns?

[worthy phoenix]

Ik but that's what people started wanting chanalus nerfed because of dispite it being just a challenge run it's still plays a part in the reason

[mortal surge]

We re many here ok with some change for chan, as long as it's fair 👍🏻

[worthy phoenix]

I agree aswell with a chunk of them but a few I don't like.

[mortal surge]

We can all agree with it, suggestions shared are not always perfect

[worthy phoenix]

But novax asked where all the burn deity to the ground hate came from

So from what I know I gave some examples for it

[mortal surge]

Fair to ask, as as always on thread about balance, some are exagerating (intentionnaly or not), in both ways

[burnt sparrow]

People hate deity in PvP but it's not the main reason, and there're some reasonable nerf propose but some main deity players cry like little babies, some even try to sneak in some buffs instead of nerf/balance. I wouldn't call Gurnnik propose a nuke, it's some minor nerf at best

[fervent cedar]

the fact Dara gets 600 more dex than heretic and also gets 700 def, and 300 res is just.. dumb.

[spare pasture]

yeh dumb, gib deity your 50% bonus crit damage, we want it all

[echo hornet]

you forgot the 250 to 400 more mag, and the fact that heretic can get 35% more stats turn 1.

[burnt sparrow]

Hell, let's change 2nd chance of deity to mana rush, how can heretic get some blue line after 2nd chance and deity can't

[gaunt mica]

its only 25% no?

[echo hornet]

I was talking about bloodloss flask, but tbf mana rush is a 50% passive on second chance, dursa is 80% base is 60% and dara is 0%. IMO if dursa is really a problem in pvp, so is mana rush.

(to be clear I think all second chance passives are cringe in pvp)

[burnt sparrow]

totally agree but this's not deity problem (well, the redline have something to do with it), it's the second chance itself

[primal dew]

Meanwhile BeoA/H loughing in corner.

[spare pasture]

hmm, it was 50% 3y ago iirc, but might be wrong. Dont even know if it still exist since rework tbh, i was just trolling a little :p

[primal dew]

well it is 250 vs 200 normal ...so you are both right

[echo hornet]

MAFSS

[clever topaz]

Crying at peak

[dim shard]

anti oneshot amity, asc 87 & about 50k EHP cause of wardup turn 1. If i miss or my damage gets blocked, i usually take like 50k damage and almost always die.
And im AL 100, so thats not the issue.

Also saw a summoner in war that was asc 22, had 160k ward and 60k EHP turn one while still bombing 20-30k a turn with just 2 summons

[dim shard]

ah, so its just a parapet & wardup amity. I see. Thanks for the clarification!
It doesnt also really matter if stun freeze, paralyze or petrify will kill you cause for sure you're gonna get much chances to oneshot after

[dim shard]

rightfully

[ripe night]

You literally WoO and it’s the easiest kill ever unless your build is trash

If you don’t want to risk getting killed, which I doubt could happen if you start with ward turns

And 50k ehp at 87AL is pretty bad, ngl

[dreamy crag]

Parapet amity and cliffside stack tho

[ripe night]

They don’t

[dreamy crag]

?

[ripe night]

They don’t stack

[dreamy crag]

Ppl tested in hoa

I doubt that it's inconsistent

[dim shard]

Last time i checked it stacked. Or i just got extremely lucky.

[gaunt mica]

can you give a link?

[dreamy crag]

no direct link but here

also from personal experience

[ripe night]

Where’s the testing

[dreamy crag]

I can't find the reference

[ripe night]

That’s literally just one guy saying it does

[dreamy crag]

The one guy also happened to play since the beginning of orna

[gaunt mica]

source: trust me bro

[ripe night]

#811270018661613627 message

[pallid flame]

Almost the beginning... lols ||5 year badge ||

[still halo]

It needs adjustment: Yes.
Render it meaningless: No.

[dim shard]

fully on board with buffing it a bit up if summons lose some defense stats and HP in PvP so you could actually accidentally kill them!

[ripe night]

Fix your build first, so that summoners don't seem "broken", because no one with 100AL is dying to a summoner in the first turn, only with a trash build and no ward start, if something

[dreamy crag]

that's true af

guy is spitting

[ripe night]

And if you can’t even withstand 30-50k first turn from a summoner, what do you do against deities, BeoHs, RS or Gilgas who are much tankier than the GS while hitting for x3-4 times those amounts in their first turn?

With less AL than those GS you mention

Not to mention you can pretty much become invulnerable to summons if you use some beast taming gear

[dreamy crag]

Waste of adorns lmao

Every time I go against a gs in war I'm grinning from ear to ear

Only lose case is blight stun or parapet

But even then I survive min 2 turns

[spare pasture]

"So you could actually accidently kill them" really bruh ?

Fully agree with Oro here, except maybe on a crazy bad RNG. Otherwise (99% if time) at same AL GS is barely more dangerous than a zerk T9 trash mob

[dreamy crag]

I've died more times to a zerked gull in chaos portals vs gs in war

And there are a lot of gs in my wars

[spare pasture]

got nothing to do here tho, we'll not base any deity nerf on his capability to beat GS in PvP.

[dreamy crag]

Tbh if any class fails that litmus test it's just unusable in pvp

(so dara

But then again Dara was never meant for pvp

[spare pasture]

i mean, any class can beat GS at same AL

[dreamy crag]

Nah

Dara loses

Because it can actually get killed

[spare pasture]

LeL. Dara dont.

[dreamy crag]

(unless hybrid ss3 dara

Nah magic scythe doesn't land = gf

With para, summon prot

There's a decent chance you'll just miss or hit and die

[spare pasture]

true for pretty much any crit base setup in PvP.

[dreamy crag]

Rs pilled mindset

[ripe night]

Hopefully no GS nerfs either, based on what he was asking for

[dreamy crag]

Only thing that might warrant a nerf is endless (but no one's patient enough so doesn't matter) or bp

[dim shard]

nah dont nerf GS, buff that class (and make it actually fun too)

[dreamy crag]

translation for equivalent endeavors: cure cancer, solve world hunger, eliminate social disparities, settle on the sun

[spare pasture]

Not AL120, couldnt find one, but so fucking faaar away to get any close to oneshot me.

the first turn i forgot to record and my absolutly non-optimised bullshit loadout i used just for the exemple (please nobody copy this 🤣 )

[dreamy crag]

my dara

(in piss

don't really play Dara anymore lol dursa is just better for most content

(hoa

[spare pasture]

just have some 1st turn ward and absolutly no AL 35 GS will oneshot you.

[dreamy crag]

Yeah

Blight is still annoying though

Fortunately ss3 solves all my problems

[spare pasture]

SS3 is still the best PvP spell anyway, any class that can use it will outperform classes that cant.
But again, that's not about deity then.

And anyway, PvP in this game is bad, unbalanced, and not relevant for farming. Nerfing PvP should never impact a classe's PvE capability.

Also GS (and RS) should get some huge buff imo, but apparently people around here consider it more logical to ask for nerfing the others.

[worthy phoenix]

nerf ss3 again tho

[dreamy crag]

in pvp maybe, if it's nerfed in everything beo becomes even more absurdly op

because the only feasible way to ang raid later is just asg

[worthy phoenix]

uh asg has pen issues and will fall off so fast. instead lets make people use things like gs4 and other silly skills that are totally useless for most players becuase theres better options and make them relevant for endgame

[dreamy crag]

have you seen asg

ang 35, consistently melting

[worthy phoenix]

sounds like beo need nerf

atleast petstats

[dreamy crag]

ang 35, al 100

this is the fucking gear

ok well deity channel ignore prev msgs

[worthy phoenix]

then def needs nerfed theres not even anguish on half of the gear and no petstats thanks for proving it but also your hoa so easier scaling meaning that it may not be the case for orna

[dreamy crag]

concept is basically the same

eventually ult just otks you so you have to go back to ss3

but in the meanwhile, free raids

[worthy phoenix]

yah i think we should have something that nerfs ss3 in anguish aswell tho

[dreamy crag]

ehh, ward prot

[worthy phoenix]

nope

[dreamy crag]

tbh what can you do lol

[worthy phoenix]

lowers ward based damage

[dreamy crag]

that's the most silver bullet thing you can do

[worthy phoenix]

its already how we deal with it for non gilgas

so why not make it something that hits at some point

[dreamy crag]

so make a free malus

for anyone that's not ss3

rn at least most maluses are global

[worthy phoenix]

nah force it whenever you add crit damage

eventually its not avoidable

[dreamy crag]

also according to the beo players crit % malus doesn't affect pet crits

[worthy phoenix]

and ss3 is latgame anyways so people would have to pathspur to chose anything thats not ss3 malus and still make it unavoidable from time to time

[worthy phoenix]

mention that in anguish live feedback

possibly bug report it

[dreamy crag]

i cant confirm it though

[worthy phoenix]

just get someone to test it

[dreamy crag]

yeah they're not gonna willingly fuck over their build lol

idk though

might just be faulty memory

let me backread

idk

yeah crit damage too, apparently

idk everything's just weird

[worthy phoenix]

thats why asg isnt suffering

asg has pen issues normally

[dreamy crag]

yeah raids have really low def/res though

so who tf knows if it's just the follower scaling

(excluding smth like great anguish

[worthy phoenix]

lets take this convo to anguish live

[dreamy crag]

i'll get crucified there

hoa player in MY orna discord talking about BEO NERFS??? (public execution

@worthy phoenix yeah cant really talk in there because 10 minute slowmode

yeah aside, i think it current state is ok?

maybe just buff heretic somehow

and rs

(aka, reduce the nerfs on crit and element

[worthy phoenix]

no beo needs to be properly adjusted

[dreamy crag]

yeah adjust beo + reduce crit/element malus

esp in raids

where everything is just statcheck deluxe

[worthy phoenix]

pets should recieve nerfs equal to what everyone else does

[dreamy crag]

yeah def

[earnest shore]

In what?

[earnest shore]

Ofc it does not affect... bc crit% + does not affect either....

Also elemental dmg maluses do affect pets.

Maluses/ bonuses are equal. If pet does not benefit from the bonuses it does not get affected from maluses either.

[earnest shore]

It is equal tho? Everyone else just has access to more bonuses so they are affected by alot maluses aswell. Pets only gains benefit from elemental dmg and pet stats. So it only gets affected by those maluses. Crit dmg/chance malus does not affect pets bc bonus is not affecting pet either.

If the maluses started affecting pets then it would be a buff to pets bc then 40% crit dmg would be usable for pets.

[worthy phoenix]

Crit chance does effect pets tho otherwise why would things like wyrm song and discorui mead make asg crit more. Anyways beo/beoa nerfs aren't the same as the rest because we actually do the damage. You get to double down on your pet stats while we have to work crit into our build or other ways to do damage. Yes beo needs a nerf you should not be cruising through anguish content especially at 35

[earnest shore]

CRIT BUFFS AFFECT PETS. NOT CRIT STAT.

And the maluses are base stat debuffs.

We cant build for crit on asg

Its just dioscuri pot and evasive strikes+ wyrm and pray

Also asg is horrible in agony

[worthy phoenix]

Crit stats should tho if your pet has a 20% chance to crit each malus against that should be a - to that %

[earnest shore]

Asg does not have crit stat

[worthy phoenix]

The skill does

Every skill it uses has a crit stat to it

So if you have a -20% crit that means that skill is 0% crit

Pet ward aswell

[earnest shore]

But asg does not get malused bc we cant even boost the crit chance with gear.

[worthy phoenix]

Why does their db bypass malus

[earnest shore]

Bc we cant boost the ward bonus with gear?

We cant make woO a 100% like others can

[worthy phoenix]

Every malus should effect every single part of the game not just players pets and summons that's what makes it anguish

[worthy phoenix]

You can by self casting it. But you have a pet who single turn db for ya bypassing any and all malus

[earnest shore]

You do realize that it would be buff to pets? If the multipliers affected pets

[worthy phoenix]

You're arguing with me just to argue because you don't want your beo summoner setup to be damaged

[earnest shore]

Bc then the positive multipliers would also affect pets

[worthy phoenix]

No it would be they don't get buffs from specific things but malus still hits

You can code it to ignore bonuses while giving malus

[earnest shore]

That would be stupid

[worthy phoenix]

Says the beo main who wants to see deity's burned to the ground for being playable

[earnest shore]

Giving a malus while not giving chance to build for it

[worthy phoenix]

You want chance to build for it use a pet with a bond for it

[earnest shore]

The pets with a bond for it does get affected by maluses

[worthy phoenix]

Hense why asg hasn't fallen off for the person running ang35 easily

[earnest shore]

For examble fjalar with crit bond gets affected by crit chance malus

[worthy phoenix]

Because the magic bond it has can be built for and the crit it has isn't reduced

[earnest shore]

Asg has temp mag bond so its not affected by crit stat bonuses or maluses. Only elemental maluses affects it

Asg has 0% crit. Only the spell has base 25% crit thats it

[worthy phoenix]

Again beo needs nerfed just like deity needs it's nerf since this is going no where I'm going to step away from the conversation if you want to DM me any point you have to try and convince me to for it but my stance isn't gonna change that all aspects of the game for players pets summons should be effected

[earnest shore]

Every malus has a positive counterpart. If one of those does not work. Neither one works. Simple

Base player dmg builds do get affected by everything bc you can build around everything. Its just very simple and working correctly

Also the dude with agony 30+ is morelikely abusing t8 jorms which is very weak in general. Any t10 raid will morelikely 0 asg

[worthy phoenix]

Explain then why spiked shield doesn't have a malus for it

[earnest shore]

That is differend thing. Im talking about pet aspect. Every thing that affects pets do have malus affecting aswell.

Ele dmg+ &-, pet block+ &-, (crit bond) crit chance+ &-, summon protection +&-, pet action+ &-.

Just a examble.

Crit dmg does not affect pets with crit bond, so cit dmg - does not affect them either

If there was maluses targeting magic/ attack. Pets would be heavily affected by them bc 99% of the pets have scaling bond for those stats

Ward abs bonus/malus affecting pets would be very intresting imo and i would not mind being malused if the bonuses worked aswell.

#💡│suggestions message

[earnest shore]

I belive that this is bc we dont have hp/mana/ward maluses. But also bc spiked shield does have only 1 "buff" which is spiked great shield. If there was more gear with that bonus. We would have malus aswell bc we have option to "nullify" or counter maluses with gear/ amity options

Every malus should have enough ways to compensate via gear options/amity options

[worthy phoenix]

just swap to things like gs4 and other non crit non element skills

thats your options

why we wana keep ss3 in the meta is beyond me

[earnest shore]

Gs4?

[primal dew]

guarding strikes

[earnest shore]

Im fully supporting ss3 nerfs

Does gs4 deal enough dmg to be usefull in raids? I dont know bc havent used it

[worthy phoenix]

I use to use it for endless before I could crit on realm it wasn't bad either. Raiding I'd have to test it

[primal dew]

M1 × avg M2 × strikes / turns ...last column

is GS4 one of best stuff ...and it has really high M1 on top of that... but the no crit kills it... since amity, cele wep, normal crit is then cca x4.5 dmg 🤷‍♂️

and even tho it has high values, SS3 M1/M2 is higher anyway 🥱

silly SS3 - hey, you can turtle while using highest dmg non-criting skill AND it is even at 1/2 of dmg out of Gilga ... 🫠

[buoyant shuttle]

because it's bugged , it doesn't get the maluslol

[earnest shore]

Its not bugged

Pet's crit cannot be buffed or reduced via gear/amity etc. Only buff skills/spells can boost pet crit.

[buoyant shuttle]

and why shouldn't it get decreased by malus anyway?

[earnest shore]

I mean the pets dont have crit? Asg has like 5% at most if not 0%.

The pets dont have any scaling stat for crit. Only some spells have crit built in and the buffs in general just boost the crit% during battle but not crit stat

Only pets like fenrir, fjalar or any with crit chance bond. Are affected by crit stat gear and maluses.

[dreamy crag]

Gymnastics performance of the highest caliber

Look at the guy's malus

And how crit skewed you can draft it

[earnest shore]

Yes bc pets crit does not scal

Scale

[finite vector]

This Deity thread is wild 😂

[dreamy crag]

beo and deity players will fight tooth and nail to get the other class nerfed

[ripe folio]

They’re too close to each other especially hydrus

[clever topaz]

Welpwlepwlepwlepwelp ✋🏻👁️👅👁️🤚🏻

[primal dew]

Yea, I find it funny since Beo is on that level since tower release, so 2y+. Deity "only" since rework....

[earnest shore]

True rivals

[gaunt mica]

other classes want both nerfed

[primal dew]

by now we should just change RS to "Avidity spec", Gigla to "Colleteral spec", Heretic to "Flask spec" and Summoner to ...dust.

[earnest shore]

The elementalist was intresting spec idea

But sadly its not coming live

[echo hornet]

Deity so OP

[worthy phoenix]

al?

stats?

[echo hornet]

about the same AL, in kingdom war

[worthy phoenix]

what al are you?

[echo hornet]

43

[worthy phoenix]

also fyi thats not a deity unless you mean to tell me that deitys can gain multiple turns in pvp against single target enemies

[echo hornet]

it was ironic, i'm the deity in the screenshot. I faced a RS dorado who got a parapet proc and 2 avidity procs. But I had second chance so it's fine I guess, very usefull.

[dull coyote]

Well, been saying for a long while, PvP means nothing in that balance patch because RS Dorito is completely stupid and Odie should have understood that right away, but he didn’t change it so.. let’s not take that into consideration.
RS épée/rend crit with infinite avidity turn is the most idiotic meta gameplay.
Let’s focus on pve instead 🥹

(And for info I keep on facing those Dorito or having every single day area taken from me by lower ALs just because of that ridiculous infinite turn loop). Area defence is a joke anyway.

[finite vector]

Check Sokam or Furdad's builds- they can zero Rend / Epee out on area defense (Deity). Infinite turns of doing no damage is still no damage

[primal dew]

eh? where can I see that?

[finite vector]

But PvP will never be balanced as long as NBA players can have matches against 5 year olds

More to the point-

Is it safe to assume the majority are okay with small tune downs in return for more apex interaction/flavor?

[finite vector]

They might not have actually shared the builds but there are videos lurking around here somewhere.

I doubt the AI is consistent enough to do it every time but it will definitely slow the average Swash down

[primal dew]

50k defense against some low AL RS turn 1 sounds interesting ...or ok, if they have second chance, got 80% stats, DC and golem then they need 10k+ to nullify that in 2nd turn or no golem and just 20k def +/- ....lot of IF

and thats taking rs with only 10k att, so some low AL

[finite vector]

It started in Blades of Finesse so zero AL vs zero AL but I've seen some silly videos of area fights here and there too.

That's not a strike on Deity. It's cool that a class can actually weaponize stacking defense

[primal dew]

I run full def builds with bird +pet act in BoF back in the days when I farmed it ...putting golem/barrier on me ...it was still far away from nullify epee on proper build RS

[burnt sparrow]

Infinite turn on Dorado? Is it easy to setup? I'd like to try

[finite vector]

And again, the AI is surely not going to follow it every time

[primal dew]

and full def means I had Arisen Fey armors with stardust for even more defs lol ...

[finite vector]

I want to say it was Arisen Aaru Armor and an Arisen Autumna Crested Shield as the center

[dull coyote]

Where do I find that please? I really tried to test different things like using ectoplasm to halve the damages etc… trying high def gear etc…

[primal dew]

couldnt nullify epee with this for properly builds RS ...by far ...

[dull coyote]

Bruh… you’ve got a 193% of this shield

Lucky

Im trying 😳

[finite vector]

Might have even been the Sumner variant which has like 1200def

[primal dew]

and it was half HP turn1 ...i put golem, bird put DC ...and still enough dmg from epee to kill me

so give or take few hundreds def isnt really help

I was able to nulify some RS Epee, no deny ...but I take it, there just had bad gear, not optimized

and I was able to nulify A LOT of other dmg of course

but by far not all....and not just epee, other sources too

BeoH was usually no chance to nulify

etc. 😄

tbh, I wasnt able to nulify other properly build bof specs on other classes too ...DURsa, GUrsa smash through my defs too ... 🤷‍♂️

[finite vector]

It was the champ match from BoF that was shared

T1 Zerk 2, Phoenix DC
T2 Golems, Phoenix Blessed Shield

Zeroed the BoF Rend / Epee

But that wouldn't work on the defense side as the zerk would just kill you off a second chance.

Eastern Regalia also allows people to punch above their weight Swash or not

[primal dew]

ok lol, that's A LOT of defense buffs ...also some bit of luck to phoenix works...and infinite more luck if you are defense & AI 😅

[finite vector]

Yeah

But none of those are going away if it's a Realm spamming DS3 or Avidity procs left and right since you'll never go to let them fade

Sokam added the caveat of a true zero defense 2h rend would still get through- not always enough to kill but enough to make the defense less worth it

Either way

Deity lol

Targeted nerfs to disperse power/allow more Apex interaction?

Targeted nerfs to disperse power/allow more Apex interaction?

Grand Summoner Nerfs? 😂

[gaunt mica]

I like how you try to steer the convo back onto topic again but it keeps getting derailed anyway I think some nerfs in exchange for more apex interaction sounds good (though not a deity main ofc)

[primal dew]

Well, I already agreed several times to all purposed nerfs. And I would like to get more Apex skills/gear/adorns/interactions to do something differently. But imo trying to figure some out really doesn't matter, those things are up to Odie and he really doesn't take a hint from ppl in this matter.

[echo hornet]

are you not happy with 1% ward 1% apex adorn ?

[primal dew]

#1390521880124981266 message
I'm pretty much for all of this written here. Some of those points would co-operate (nerf one, make the possibility somewhere else ...aka temps & new apes buff and SF & fade passive diversification). Apex gain per turn would significantly nerf Deity horde dungeons AND towers as it is it's strong point (getting 50% per multiple target as now). 🤷‍♂️

[primal dew]

I don't think I care. I don't think Apex pure dmg skills can be worth by their own as they stands even when you buff their dmg A LOT. Yes, aoe to buff apex passive, neutra to one shot strong enemies, but overall their total dmg/how often you can use them, not even +XY% apex is worth it.

[echo hornet]

and it's even worse on dursa

[primal dew]

That's why adding t.att/mag+++ 1 turn skills while make channel 2 turn is kind of nerf/trade off. You lose your other stats from channel, still able to pull out the +++ for some content. DUrsa will at least keep the buff for dmg....

But yea, some new/other utility skills ....would be nice.

Again, that's entirely Odie call.

As far as I saw, he really put his things and don't take those infinity topics ideas for classes upgrades.

[echo hornet]

I'd also like to see some partial bar usage, like you have a spell that trigger you buffs, but the number of buffs you get depends on the % of the bar.
And don't tell me it's not possible, it's exactly how flasks work. Like I said before, Apex walked so Flasked could run.

[spare pasture]

oh well, i supported that idea first i think, and someone told me it was a buff in disguise

[primal dew]

Yes I know, Cuong, it is just above my message here #1390521880124981266 message , but I stand for what I wrote here. When you make channel 2 turns, it's basically substitude for it, with just att/mag buff. And with the time Apex need to charge (at least in 1v1 content), for horde you proc temps much faster, so restricting temps proc to +/++ as you said is a nerf too.

Far from buff, just diversification with slight nerf to dmg (you won't proc +++ naturally) and hard nerf to survival cuz channealus will be 2 turns.

Diety is still one of slower raiding class, just can get bulky with defenses or long raids. I wouldn't really like to hit it there.

[worthy phoenix]

I'd like the temp 3 as well because when deity ara raiding sometimes I get DC up and fill bar again and am like well I don't have another skill to use on apex in load out so ig I'm not using it

[ripe folio]

In regards to this I’m ok with most of them. I’d rather not nerf defense and res as being hard to kill but slow is kinda what deity should do imo. I’m also against the equipment restriction as that’s also a main part of deity. If we do nerf the apex rate, would it be possible that we increase how fast Dara’s passive charges?

[burnt sparrow]

Right, just ignore tons of shit you want to add (stat+ which u called Hybrid nerf, more proc chance) and focus on that one thing, lmao
At least Gurnnink idea doesn't have those

[spare pasture]

Na Na bro, you argumented against T.att/mag+++ one turn that this alone would already be a buff in disguise, 'cause you know, we "can get DC from Pets" 🤡

[worthy phoenix]

So can everyone tho what does a pet giving DC have to do with making it so that deity's can't cast DC in 1 turn a nerf while giving them a temp mag 3 or att3 for a turn 1 buff. It would still be a turn we have to use instead and DC isn't reliable from pets without building for it

[primal dew]

You should first read the link above and what was it about.

• few msgs above that.

[spare pasture]

Also i like Gurn's nerfs, except that i'll have to AL another class to Raid if it get out as is.
Probably Beo since horde would also be hardcore nerfed

[dull coyote]

I also agree on some work/rework on gear to give more opportunities for « exotic » builds instead of everybody using kinda the same builds. So if we add more apex into some otherwise overlooked pieces of gear and that it makes it fun to work around, I am all in for that

I just simply don’t want to trade what we’ve got not to something that means I will have a hard time doing what I do now or make it almost impossible

[ripe folio]

Or just give us armor adorns and let us go from there

[primal dew]

I still hope that we have 5 towers and 6 classes. We can add that 1 tower and each tower titan will drop somehow more class specific auguments. Since CD, avidity, flasks, apex are all things that came after tower. 🤷‍♂️

[dull coyote]

I hate how celestial weapons have completely killed all the other builds and weapons since then but at the same time I am happy to see this will fade thainsk to anguish… but also I won’t be grinding anguish high enough to see it happen ahahah

[primal dew]

And even tho there are anguish stats for gear, their final calculation is so sad, there will be barely any weapons suprasing Cele weapons/auguemnts still. They will be still top.

[primal dew]

No it won't lol.

[ripe folio]

🤣 dang bro got instantly shot down

[dull coyote]

I don’t know that’s what people with « high anguish and AL » have been saying since anguish 2 dropped

Allegedly there’s a point where celestial weapons get superseded by anguish stats on normal weapons

But then again what do I know I’m only AL50 so

[primal dew]

That's for SS3 builds and BegX axe and pet/summon stats equip. Don't think there is any other things. Since all those stats are not AL multiplicative and just additive to stats....they are just small increase. How do you want to beat crit dmg from prom hands? -1 turn for ultima? Etc,

[dull coyote]

Good point. Well, I had faith. So, there is that 🫠

[dreamy crag]

raid experience:
Change rs to "fuck I can't statcheck noooo" gilga to "oh yeah I don't have to statcheck" heretic to "I am the statcheck"

[dull coyote]

Average low AL experience in heretic : sooo what was it again? Red potion? Blue? Uhhh manapot? Hang on… burn mana? Duplicate what spell? I did nothing but buff up.. oh shit I’m dead »

Deity and Beowulf: « lol… next next next »

🙂

[dreamy crag]

low al heretic (now actual human player behind the screen):
Wardflask mimic
Snotra tmag3
Sigil vesta (9 mil gone oops)

[dull coyote]

I might not use the right heretic then I can’t find the ward flask on base or Ara 😄

[dreamy crag]

or just bloodflask

either or

[dim shard]

And then there is me
Give every other classes buffs instead 🗽

[dim shard]

"we have pets at home"

[dim shard]

Fomoria gear enters the room.

Also, may i ask what would be those small tune down?
Is there a post that nets stuff together? I cant find one.

So far, reducing dex, slightly def & res, so far sounds fair.
Majority of what makes deity so strong for me is that i can wear everything in combination with good amitys, amitys carry (almost) any class.
Also losing 2 skill slots per class would be something i can understand too. We have an unreasonable amount of them.

[worthy phoenix]

Give all classes the same amount of slots don't nerf ours because other classes complained at one point

[dull coyote]

Sooo I am trying to think about what we are trying to achieve here because… when I read that we need to take away 300 dex here, take out some def and res there… I wonder what’s the end goal? Make deity squishy ? What content? Why make it worse instead of making better choices for other classes. I don’t get it..

That’s like real life example here… instead of making all employees happy, let’s make sure the ones that were still happy gets sacked and go down to feeling shit instead.

If content is self contained as everybody keeps on claiming and ALs and content has got no incidence on other people’s life..
Why nerf it? I am being serious. I don’t understand this mentality really. Just use that dev time and brain power to make sure other classes are on par and everybody is happy instead. Fix GS to start with then we can see.

[spare pasture]

ah yeah, the skill slot part. NEVER understood why NF is using this to bully players.

that and not allowing us to attach pet to a loadout/preset. What is the justification making us switch everytime we change playstyle or class?

[ripe folio]

So much for fine tuning huh 😂

[worthy phoenix]

its because deity doesnt need fine tuned but other classes need tweaked up

[deep harbor]

This chat was realistically tossed and discarded awhile ago

[spare pasture]

https://youtube.com/shorts/hkHsb6VpRG4?feature=shared
yeah unplayable, too much buff

and as you can see i have no idea of how flask work 😅 but i suppose if someone manage to cast the one that lower your mana it get even better

[dull coyote]

Bro

You dare calling that heretic gameplay

🤣🤣🫠🫠🫠

Literally every class use that staff 🤣

[spare pasture]

dafuk am i reading here ?

how the hell do you think "deity/beo next next next" are doing ?

[worthy phoenix]

Why would you play heretic if you're not gonna utilize passive

Go use dispair with flask usage in there then come back

[orchid heart]

Use your sigil every 3 turn if it's fun but it's the fastest no matter the class

You're even the class to reach +100% stats faster than deity

[spare pasture]

this.
And if we're talking only about using class spells, then deity is mono-target only, way way behind Hera then.

No sense.

[worthy phoenix]

Dispair is the best representation of heretics btw nothing can be immune to it and it fills flasks

[spare pasture]

ok good for you, you go despair if you want.
But Crit build is also the best representation of heretics btw, thanks to their 250% crit damage (200 for the other classes)

but in anycase, this statement :

[dreamy crag]

(it is

[spare pasture]

is bullshit 👍

[orchid heart]

Duplicate spell is strong with ultima 2 in raid

[gaunt mica]

Convo derailed again

[orchid heart]

As usual

[spare pasture]

yep.

[dull coyote]

You guys are talking about dungeon where I was speaking about raiding but anyway I get the point

You are right on all your points

[spare pasture]

Bru, Hera 10x faster than deity at raid

[dull coyote]

Didn’t manage to make it faster on my side. Much more squishy

Tower I am going CS for that reason too I prefer being bulkier

(And I don’t have the arch staff only swangsong and it’s less fun)

So if heretic is faster at raiding and doing better in dungeons… why do we want to nerf deity again? I don’t see the problem 🤣

[gaunt mica]

With no anguish, heretic has the advantage in raiding sure. With no anguish both do well in dungeons, but deity has the advantage and especially in endless. As soon as anguish is turned on all the crit / elemental spells heretic relies on, fall off at some point, and deity becomes better because SS/CS do not really get affected damage wise by ang maluses.

[worthy phoenix]

While it's slower at all 0 dispair ang 4 is doable. I'll turn ang off and send video for ya

[spare pasture]

?
did you watch my clip mate ?

[dull coyote]

I go endless Dara with ultima one turn and that works fine enough. Not too bothered until floors 450+. And I run full xp/orns gear because I don’t care going deeper than that anyway. Quick farm is fine.

With anguish 3

I can’t speak for anguish 10+ obviously. But then again I guess not a lot of people will bother going higher than 4 until there’s more incentive anyway.

[worthy phoenix]

You have 10 als and did it in a minute 15 I did ang 4 with arcane malus in 2 mins al 0 heretics passive for immune negation on base heretic rewards higher raw magic and then using tmm for buffs. My build was a tad slower for 10 als less

Your clip doesn't actually represent how heretics are playing currently because mana flask is incredibly powerful for them and the ones who use bl2 typically have a ton of als to back their raw magic stat and don't Wana bother using flasks at all. But if your gonna flex a class show it off being used with it's passive. For example deity and apex. Gilga and frenzy realm shifter and shadow veil beo has hybrid monster

[dull coyote]

Those messages are exactly my problem in orna for the last 3 years.
We don’t even play the game for the fun of it, it’s all about min maxing and getting those numbers in. Sometimes I can take an hour doing a tower just because I start, stop, start and stop… play very inefficiently… going into dungeons farming and buffing up, trying new builds… but everything is min maxing and people get annoyed because they can’t get their 300 dungeons per day.
(Not targeted at your comments directly but more about the numbers and efficiency)

Guys, just chillax, it’s a game. We are here to have fun !

[gaunt mica]

Am still using trev in shackled content. The synergy with corvus crit poise is there

[worthy phoenix]

I mean the game is competitive by nature so you'll always have this going threw the community until you remove all competitive nature in the game.

[spare pasture]

ok ?
I wasnt doing a showoff of hera, just showing it can perfectly horde at AL0 low ang.
Good for you if you're some kind of a purist who need to play with flask and all ? 😂

[worthy phoenix]

I haven't played with h.corv I only have h.ara so I can't comment there. But I can say that not having h.corv and being low al base heretic with dispair goes really well

[spare pasture]

good.
It was never about knowing if qat was doing better than trev, but ok

[dreamy crag]

who tf buys hara before hcorv

if ur not a heretic player

is it just for budget aoe

[finite vector]

Everyone in the current Heretic era lol

[dreamy crag]

hes not a heretic player

[dull coyote]

Well, if we wanted to really make it competitive we should make it fair to start with, like creating « seasons » for people to start on the same day, doing limited events with ladder boards etc

Ascension being the dumbest unfair system that exist in any game I’ve played so far

So I can’t even count that as competition

There were some fishing competitions or arena in the past in OL. That was kinda competition

[finite vector]

This is on reason why I don't like Ascensions in PvP. Because while it's a small amount of content, it does affect other players.

For a sports reference, no one wants to play high school football when you've got NFL players on the other team.

If you remove that or cap it somewhere (i.e Pokemon) then by all means, everyone can play how they want with no real side effects and PvP can actually start to try and be balanced.

But as it is, and as the system is random and rewards only grinding one or two types of content rather than playing Orna as a whole (okay maybe 3), it detracts from class balance, pvp balance and forces anyone who wants to be competitive to grind those same 2-3 pieces of content

However, we are getting off topic again xD

[dreamy crag]

name the channel "random ranting channel (beo and deity mostly)"

[finite vector]

Ultimately, any changes to Deity will be at Odie's call so I wouldn't worry too much about the laundry list players are making that will kill the class/axe a particular set of content

[dull coyote]

Yes please nerf beo !
(And GS of course, especially GSH it’s too OP 🤡)

[dreamy crag]

gsh should actually lower its stats when a summon dies

passive is not lore accurate

[dull coyote]

Yeah that’s why I said we have to take PvP out of the equation.. but impossible of course… unless Odie fully decides to completely change the stats and gears in PvP

[dreamy crag]

also instead of pet protect for beo, your follower will occassionally betray you and can hit you instead

[dull coyote]

Whoever decided a pet had to die and sacrifice itself to let you leave is very cruel

[finite vector]

That sounds like something that should be a Realmshifter skill

[dreamy crag]

assassin spec tempering strike 3

[dull coyote]

« Betrayal strike 3 »

[fickle cliff]

Something I found interesting from the guild leaderboards is deity is only top in the spelunkers guild…. Just from a brief spot check, it looks like most of the classes are represented. Based off the arguments in this thread I was expecting Deity to hold the majority of top spots.

[dreamy crag]

the guild leaderboards is literally just a grind fest

whoever plays the most gets the highest rank

ofc more dedicated players will be attracted to stronger classes

but deity isnt this thanos z tier class

[dim shard]

In a post apolcalyptic world like this, existance is more cruel then nonexistance. Call it a... reverse sacrifice.

[jovial plinth]

It reminds me of the Gilgamesh fight in FFXII
Honestly that’s been my power fantasy behind Orna this whole time

[echo hornet]

That sounds more like a SS/CS + Anguish issue than a Deity issue. And IMO it has been a problem in the game for long that there's no alternative to crit in endgame for magic users. Only reasonable option being windtamer shield and qatvanga, but nothing for raids. And still both options are weaker than pure crit.

[primal dew]

Heretic is glass. You can still go duo party, heretic with mimic/aaru/weakness with ultima(2) and put raid to dust even at high anguish.

[echo hornet]

It's has if heretics picked the DPS class over the bruiser class and found out that they're not as tanky as the bruiser

[gaunt mica]

Sure I agree, but as long as its in the game it will be an advantage for deity

[echo hornet]

not for deity, but for every class that can use it

[gaunt mica]

So gilga, deity and maybe beoh

[echo hornet]

rs dorado can't CS ?

I think only heretic can't access it

[gaunt mica]

I have never seen a realn use ss in a raid but yea maybe its possible

[primal dew]

Meanwhile zipper 1y back having 550k ward & 22k att SS build as heretic

[echo hornet]

ALiens

[primal dew]

130 iirc

[gaunt mica]

Gs cant either because no ward sustain because no pet. And yea even if they could use ss with hybrid adorns, it will fall behind ang weapons at a certain ang level

[echo hornet]

but the problem is a serie of skills which offense is based on a defensive stats, that's the root of the problem. Same problem in every RPG doing it.

How do you balance that ? Impossible.

[primal dew]

It should just have really low M1, under 1, not one of highest. 😅

[gaunt mica]

There just need to be SS ang maluses as well

[dull coyote]

Tie skills to specific classes 😝 so gilga can use ss, heretic ultima and let’s find real other spells that matches that on other classes. Let’s make aoe accessible and on par for every classes 😛

(This is ironic but somehow prevents ppl from using ss on other classes)

[echo hornet]

no, no, if you want ultima you'll have to play deity

[dull coyote]

Ah true I keep on mixing up

That’s the problem when you unlocked everything for so long 😆

[dreamy crag]

the year is 2050 and heretics are forced to use fey spells (they have been reduced to 1/3 an asg

crazy to think that if magic chakram and ultima didn't exist heretic would literally be a bad asg

[ripe folio]

Next April 1st you can only use skills from your class line

[deep harbor]

They should do this just for the sheer curiosity to see how it would actually go

It'd be funny and educational 😂

[ripe folio]

Beo would eat. Gilgs gonna gilg. Deity’s gonna be suffering. Summons gonna summon. Shifters are gonna be doing the same thing but slightly worse. Heretic as mentioned earlier is a worse asg

[deep harbor]

Nah Deity has faction damage and DC still plus our Apex stuff. Ultima and. US as well. I honestly think everyone would be fine 😂

[worthy phoenix]

Pre Ultima tho we'd struggle and wed have 0 buffs because of it although you could claim that because the god classes start at t8 we have the ability to use any skill from t1-7 classes because we don't have a classline until then so maybe we'd be fine? But we'd never have db other than from a pet and we'd never have access to gaits

[deep harbor]

I agree pre Ultima yeah but also same token we would have DC and others wouldn't unless they are using a follower locking them into AP or Penguin.

Gaits are massive though. Beo would probably do the best out of everyone

Nerf Beo

[worthy phoenix]

Oe just gear for walls of aaru and/or gods of aaru

But that takes up 2/3 armor slots

[deep harbor]

Was about to say

I like that this discussion has derailed so far this is where we are

[worthy phoenix]

Let's full wipe all classes and go back to the original iteration of all classes (delete summoner still)

[deep harbor]

One week of it while keeping all the new anguish and everything. It'd be a hell of a week

[worthy phoenix]

And a step further piss off all the high al players and remove als entirely then reinstate als with a cap that removes 2/3s of the highest al players power. Cap equals 100

And while we are deleting summoner if a player had als on the class they're permanently gone inable to be refunded

[ripe folio]

No buffs and only ward from seals/strikes

[worthy phoenix]

Nah we'd have access to ward of ort

Buffs come from classes before the class line because we don't start early enough to be like beo and claim 7 tiers of classes

And wed have temp buffs from passive

And then walls of aaru for 100%

The only thing deity is missing is gaits

[deep harbor]

I'm high AL and it wouldn't piss me off but more or less be interesting haha. No ALs at all. Just anguish gear

[worthy phoenix]

Beos would have less than deity's do due to them starting at t3 so no buffs at all only ward they'd have is woa and WoO only DC from Goa and

[ripe folio]

Oh we’re allowing those spells nevermind