Gilgamesh and 3.17

[humble crater]

SS being overtuned is not a Gilga problem, as you've evidenced yourself

Frenzy and SS are not the same issue and shouldn't be conflated

[blissful creek]

How many players in the beta are representative of your average player?

You’re using the beta as a point of comparison, yet most of the beta players are high AL players, so they’re view would be much different than the average players experience

[chilly willow]

Frenzy was introduced because of it.

[chilly willow]

How many of your average players are on discord at all? SS is/was overtuned at all ALs. It's still very strong even without frenzy.

[humble crater]

Yes, another mechanic was introducted. We're dicussing that one.

[chilly willow]

The proper way to fix ss wasn't an option. Hence the workarounds

And it was introduced to give more power at the cost of being a tank

[humble crater]

And discussing how that interacts with the rest of the kit is somehow not relevent?

[blissful creek]

Yeah, we didn’t run the beta and we aren’t high AL so our opinions don’t matter it seems

[chilly willow]

It was introduced because the kit was OP. You can discuss it all you want, but if you don't know why it was introduced idk what to tell you

He is high AL

[humble crater]

And I was in the beta, but you don't see me being all self-aggrandizing about it

[chilly willow]

You never chimed in, in the discussion. I'm not self-aggrandizing 😂. I'm telling people why it was introduced because it seems most here don't know why it was.

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370141629444395028

There's the link for anyone who wants to read 5k+ responses on it

It was a rushed mechanic and a bandaid fix no doubt. Changing ward scaling just wasn't an option to fix it the right way for the time being

[slow solstice]

Gilga was a weaker class for ss

But most of gilga complain for now due to they dont have better alternitives for raid

Their crit build needless to say weaker than other melee class

[chilly willow]

Deity is broken, RS is meant to be a glass cannon like heretic, but gilga damage massively out performed the two with zero risks. My gilga out raided my heretic at the same AL with zero risk whatsoever

Hybrid damage is also broken, but took a little hit. It needs further tweaking too

SS is still super strong and there are other good builds for gilga. It's just everyone is stuck on SS. SS really is buffed in some content currently. It wasn't a straight nerf across the board

[quick radish]

It was weaker before, it is still weaker now without frenzy, but with frenzy i could say it could rival rs, for raiding anyway since I can't properly utilized frenzy outside raiding

[chilly willow]

There's no maluses for it in ang 2.0

[slow solstice]

I mean with u.s it is only playable 2 shot

And 4 turns isnt enough for long raid, tbh.

That is what make it bad, offen raid last longer with hp scale in ang 2.0.

[chilly willow]

Everyone got way too used to the power creep

For reference on how long a raid used to take lmao

[slow solstice]

Idk but the game go on with better content

[quick radish]

That's why prefer buffing myself to the brim then used frenzy to nuke the big raids, i did got my health & ward almost depleted in the end 😂

[slow solstice]

Celes and gear, but it is annoy to nerf all things and again complain

[quick radish]

My agony lv is just 3 for now so I couldn't comment about high anguish raiding

[slow solstice]

As we can see 80% of player come here to complain

[chilly willow]

Who's complaining? Frenzy isnt a nerf, it's a huge hit. It's a faster weaved elements

[slow solstice]

And many gilga feel disappointed with their performance in game content for now

[chilly willow]

They're just use to SS being top dog with no repercussions. TDubs has posted SO many builds for diversity that do well. You may die 🤷‍♂️ it happens lol

[quick radish]

Tdubs mostly play gursa, some players just too fond of herc playstyle to switch to more riskier gursa, i did a few builds with gursa and could say it's stronger than ss3 raiding

[humble crater]

Frenzy is not a nerf, but it feels wonky and overly-punitive

[quick radish]

Anyway i still think cs/ss3 only gilga skill when frenzy used, without it cs/ss3 is everyone skill again 😂

[regal hinge]

This is 65 AL. BoF spec. Edited to make it 2x speed.

Before nerf I would do Selene hands c axe with WoL between ss3’s and also use DC to hit 9,999,999 for first two ss3’s and then it would fall into low 9mil’s and mid 8mil’s.

New strat is slower and wimpy in comparison, but consistent I guess. 🫩

I used iMovie on my iPhone, so sorry for the weird cropping they force on the video

[jagged needle]

On iPhone I would just use screen record in the bottom right of basic options when you swipe down (menu where you can adjust brightness and volume) iMovie was weird 😆

[regal hinge]

Thought the option to 2x speed was most helpful 😭

Now that raids take this long

[jagged needle]

That’s fair I thought screen record had a playback 2x option but it’s just regular or half time

[regal hinge]

This should be easier to watch. Sorry had to learn 🤓

[quick radish]

How far we have fallen 😂

That's some stable ward management 👍🏼

[full wagon]

Summary of issues

With patch 3.17, many Gilgamesh feel that we are at a conversion point where our identity is being switched from the Warrior class which relied heavily on having large ward pools to be able to survive and to do damage to one that is becomin gmore reliant on building into Collateral Damage. Most don't really have a problem witht his but there are some pain points due to the change of class design that could be addressed to more fully make this transition.

Issues of concern identified:
Classes:
-Hercules:
It seems that even with the most recent patch, that Hercules being the less defensive (no steadfast) Spiked Shield playstyle specialist just isn't there. Or at least there isn't enough of a difference between base and Herc to offset the loss of Siphon Ward and Steadfast 2.

Abilities:
-Frenzy:
While there is a general feeling that Frenzy is a good addition to the class, the way it currently operates feels clunky and does not synergize well in the long form content it is best meant to boost.

Gearing:
In the new branch of Gilga development where CD importance is being stressed more than ever, many players feel that there is a shortage of gear and adornments that contribute to CD Chance or Damage.

-Skills:
Greaves/Pauldrons
These have always been sort of marginal to use due to how the ward drain functions. However, with Frenzy, an overwhelming majority of the players think they have become mostly pointless.
#1377614946178826290 message

Ward of Balor
A skill that is mainly used for endless set up and building ward turns, a significant majority think the skill could use a little something to make Gilga's want to use it.
#1377614946178826290 message

Spiked Shield(s)
Though the result is much more mixed on this, a slight majority of players feel the change has impacted Gilga (especially Hercules) more significantly than other classes which have more flexibility
#1377614946178826290 message

Proposed Suggestions to alleviate identified Issues:
(To be completed)

[full wagon]

Please review the above message to see if there are any other major concern areas I need to poll before moving on towards potential solutions. Thank you!

[pine nebula]

Looks really good. Short concise clear. Ty @full wagon

[slow solstice]

So how about other raid method without ss

Not so good but yeah better than some case

Since at least g ursa has a role for some more things like that

[full wagon]

Personally I would put that under the SS issue, thus my mention of flexibility

[pine nebula]

I think the plan is get a big picture of possible issues then slowly work through said issues one at a time.

anything you might have an issue with will fall under one of the points he made in that big post

[quick radish]

My remaining concern is about cs/ss3, gilga should be the one who's best utilizing with or without frenzy, requesting something to be tweaked to discourage other class from using the skill

[frigid storm]

Eh i think its fine if other people use it. I just think we should be indisputably the best at it

[quick radish]

Yeah that's what i mean 😂, we should be the one who's best utilizing the skill and less effective on others

[full wagon]

I mean theoretically Gilgamesh still does use it best as our M2 contribution is much greater, at least in pve. Though when you get into DC and Deity buff madness, I am not sure that overall that holds true in reality. I don't really play Deity enought o know.

[tulip quarry]

No changes except when frenzy is cast you get 100k orns

[frigid storm]

Perfect

[tulip quarry]

Then it solved the raid and orn issue

[frigid storm]

Best suggestion of the whole thread

[pine nebula]

The issue if you make CS and SS only good on gilg is you open up a whole new can of worms. What are the classes that are using it now supposed to use if SS is no longer viable

[woven granite]

How does that effect gilgas tho. Why can't I be the best at Ultima realmstikes verse summoning. What am I supposed to do if I can't use other classes abilities better than them?

[heady nacelle]

watching wrecked type 🍿

[chilly willow]

Doesn't solve SS being OP either which is what the nerf was for. To reduce its power while remaining a tank

Its still OP as a tank lol. I mean I can sit on 9k def 13k res and pump out stupid damage on heretic

Oh and 4.4k dex 💀

[tepid quail]

Why is SS the only skill we have to fight with that consumes ward

[pine nebula]

Because while it fixes gilg, it may make even more issues. If deity was only using ultima and not SS then it's an easy fix. But they're not

[chilly willow]

SS has always been problematic

[frigid storm]

How much damage?

[pine nebula]

I'll say it. CS and SS are a mistake. Ward should have only been a defensive stat.

[frigid storm]

Then base gilgamesh and gilgamesh Hercules are effectively worthless classes

[chilly willow]

I haven't even tweaked my build to the new mechanics at all. Using my old SS build I still hit well over 200k. Heretic is the worst ss user lol. With a tweak to the build and actually buffing, idk. Im sure in the millions

[frigid storm]

Okay so that's actually trash damage

For what like a 60AL hero?

[chilly willow]

Heretic has always dealt trash damage and im not even buffed

Heretic is the worst ss user my guy. Can't use axe cant use lute

[frigid storm]

You said you were doing "stupid damage"

You are not

[chilly willow]

With buffing yes

Thats unbuffed lmao

[heady nacelle]

200k unbuffed on heretic? Sounds stupid to me lols

Its more than I do on my gilga lmao but im also garbage haha

[frigid storm]

For like a 100al heretic? Nope lol

[heady nacelle]

Lols well not getting anywhere here

[chilly willow]

Bro my turn 1 chakram hits for the same and I have to be glass to do it. I have 13k res/9k def 4.4k dex on a crap SS build... it's not maximized

And I'm slapping 200k+

[frigid storm]

Send a ss of your stat screen

[chilly willow]

Oh, the 200k+ hits are with conq spec on too

Lol

[slow solstice]

I missed my old day turn 2 8m

With beoh

[pine nebula]

How so? Maybe if you got rid of the skills now.. But let's not pretend that skills like guarding strikes or Horizontal slash don't exist

[slow solstice]

And u say 200k now is a lot.

[humble crater]

Try 180

[frigid storm]

Base gilga is rubbish at both of those

[frigid storm]

Holy sheesh

How can you have so much power and still be so weak

[humble crater]

It's not a showcase of what heretic can do, it's a showcase of over-inflated stats

[full wagon]

Hey all, Yoshi and I have collaborated and we wanted to put out a player pulse survey for Gilgamesh. I have copied the link into the OP of this thread but am posting it here as well.

Looking forward to see what you have to say.

https://forms.gle/yaCn5Sk1ArYojqQYA

[frigid storm]

180 ALs and magistrate will do 200k t1 😂

[slow solstice]

Hera is the one use as the weakest no one deny

Old SS day with that al SS do millions dmg

[chilly willow]

The whole point was you can be a tank and deal mass damage. Go read the beta thread. Then gilgas got upset damage was low with mass survivability

[slow solstice]

But yeah we tell about raid 200k is ok for pvp

It is so small for raid

Right

That is why gilga complain their SS now take 10x times as the past

[heady nacelle]

I hate the survivability sentiment, raids die in a handful of turns. Survivability hasn't been an issue for anyone raiding at all

[chilly willow]

Here, I'll min/max the build later. Go raid on it and show you if you want raids. I got shit to do for a wedding so I'm not going to prioritize it. If you want a gilga example with similar AL go look at ensseric slamming raids

[frigid storm]

You are trying to prove that point by demonstrating how you are vastly underperforming for your AL?

[slow solstice]

May be overestimate but could be x5 their old time for raid

[full wagon]

I am not sure arguing about what happened in the Beta thread is the most productive use of our time here.

[pine nebula]

Right. Because they're balanced around CS and SS. In another world where those skills don't exist they can be balanced around guarding strike and now it's a good skill. That's just my point

[slow solstice]

I think this discuss is about how good/bad SS do base on other pov

[chilly willow]

This stems off it and the issues we're not resolved. Frenzy was the solution, but many of the problems with it still remain and now gilgas hate that frenzy makes them squishy. That was the whole point of frenzy being introduced

[slow solstice]

Tbf ss now is slower than a hera av build

[heady nacelle]

But with half the passive and lower offensive stats, makes the classes sub optimal for anything without some decent bumps

[slow solstice]

And I don't know why a hera complain about it in there

[frigid storm]

This also is true. Realistically nobody is worried about survivability in raids.

It literally doesn't matter

[slow solstice]

Try to raid as magic class is a lot comfortable

I see hera do like let see 10m+ in 5 turns

[heady nacelle]

Yeah i pretty much raid exclusively as an al 11 heretic now lols sad days

[slow solstice]

And while gilga need buff and SS like 10 turns for same dps

[frigid storm]

He has so much AL he can do that turn two lol

[slow solstice]

And they complain it

[pine nebula]

Right. My whole point of that comment was. Gilg would be balanced in other ways if SS was never introduced

[slow solstice]

Not really it is fixed prepare in turn

Fill flask buff and av

[frigid storm]

SS is a cool mechanic and not a problem tho

Why kill our class identity?

[slow solstice]

Cost at least 5 turns

[humble crater]

What, no "10/10 no notes" option?

[frigid storm]

They have quickcast and stufd

[slow solstice]

It is ultima build lol

Av is differen

Somewhat like magic charkram build

Oracle prom hand x6

But anyway off topic

But my pov hera is better than gilga no wonder for ang raid

[pine nebula]

Because it got nerfed originally because it was bad for the game, not bad for gilg. We can definitely get it to a good point again but Odie and the crew have to look at the game as a whole not just gilg.

Maybe it turns into a gilg only ability but they also need to replace the skill for other classes that were using it

[slow solstice]

Let see as playerbase gilga

How many can clear content fast

[frigid storm]

Nobody else is even using it anymore

[slow solstice]

Like horde đun, tower, raid...

[frigid storm]

It consumes too much

[slow solstice]

I don't think we have many can do it with avg base

[pine nebula]

That's just untrue. My buddy who is a deity is still using it every battle

[humble crater]

Because it's so easily cribbed by other classes, as our heretic friend is so kindly pointing out to us

[full wagon]

I've enabled slow mode to try and slow down the pacing some. Make your posts count.

[pine nebula]

I may have stirred the pot a bit. Sorry for that but we're just talking in circles here now. Ty for that voting options.
I'll check it out and give my input so we can get back on track

[tepid quail]

I don't have any experience with herc or ursa since I don't have them unlocked so I am not able to fill out the survey honestly

[chilly willow]

Heretic is the worst at it. Go be butthurt about deity or beo 😏

[humble crater]

Yes, you're correct. That's exactly my point. Thank you for reinforcing it.

[pine nebula]

I just want to add one more thing and then I'll shutup. The issue with that poll is that gilg is such a gear reliant class that if you don't have good gear you might end up getting skewed results from lower AL or less played people. @full wagon like I have no gear so everything is hard or unfun etc

[full wagon]

I understand, it is meant to sample a whole spectrum though. And I do have the one question about functionality of the class for earlier t10's

It's not entirely related to what I am doing in this thread. But this thread made me realize it might be a good idea to get a broader sample

[tulip quarry]

IMO Frenzy is good just feels a bit clunky sometimes, Deity/Beo using SS better is likely more of a hybrid issue.

[pine nebula]

Sorry one more thing. Because I know my gear isn't great yet and I'm still farming it. I don't feel comfortable voting on what gilg is good at, at this point

[chilly willow]

Do away with the bandaid fixes and fix the ward scaling. Let everyone suffer with less ward and no quad scaling on ss

[jagged needle]

Next balance patch can nerf ward inflation with AL scaling

[frigid storm]

Herc has been super underwhelming lately. Even with the +25% its worse than base. How about if hercs special ability was that it kept the old ward scaling instead of attack scaling. It makes sense thematically with herc as the pinnacle of offense and defense. The weakness is that its hyper clunky with no mana siphon and no steadfast

[chilly willow]

Are we still getting a real balance patch soon though? From comments I've seen it seems like what was done in ang 2.0 may have been it for a while 😅

[jagged needle]

It likely is what will be for awhile but a ton of changes in the original beta patch weren’t shipped as it was perceived by NF to have too much shock to the player base. If issues still exist like the above they can be shipped in smaller balance patches according to community opinion

[fiery solar]

Imo, Early gilga struggles to farm orns than others, slower to raid. Mid gilga is fine but still need ways to farm endless somehow, not being the best but just able to farm them is good enough. So we dont spend AL on other class to farm orn. Make Questing/trialling Axe usefull.

[sand glen]

I would gladly exchange second chance for steadfast and/or ward siphon. Also, give Herc shield proficiency to compensate the loss of sword

[regal hinge]

Gilga is atrocious at farming orns in HoA too through world farm

[full wagon]

Alright, so we have a bunch of good feedback in and I feel comfortable in moving onto suggestions on how to improve areas that we've identified as problem areas. I'm going to put some guard rails on your suggestions for my mental sanity.

1. Let's go for quantity over quality, don't just throw stuff at the wall repeatedly, try to keep your suggestions tight and as brief as we can.

2. Please identify what pain points your suggestion covers. I'll give you an example of what I mean below.

Pain point covered: Frenzy and Pauldrons/Greaves
*Suggestion:
Combine Pauldrons and Greaves into one buff and remove the ward drain. Kind of like using Wyrm Song to fill gaps in a crit build, this would allow you to fill gaps in your CD build. With the relative rarity of CD Chance and Damage items and adorns, skill based means of filling gaps is desperately needed and with the heavy ward drain on Frenzy, it just makes these buffs undesirable the vast majority of the time

In addition, remove the 100% ward requirement to use Frenzy and make it so that it takes 3 charges of Collateral Damage to activate the button so that you can use the ability. Upon use, have it drain half of current ward but allow regen.*

When we have several good suggestions on each pain point I'll run some polls and what not.

[pine nebula]

Are you open to all ideas? I know people were throwing around ideas about changing passives up. Or do you want it to be more about skills

[full wagon]

I am open to any ideas that address the issues in #1377614946178826290 message
If we need to discuss adding additional issues, that is an option too.

Keep in mind though I am not the arbiter on ideas. I just ask you to keep them concise for my mental sanity trying to summarize them for more input later 😄

[frigid storm]

Can we add as a pain point/issue the trouble with farming orns as gilga?

[full wagon]

I am assuming you mean because of the lack of endless efficency in Orn gear? Because I find Gilga very efficient at hard boss in Orn gear, which isn't bad at the Orn gain.

Either way, if you have specific suggestions, post em up, we'll work our way through em and eventually if they are positively received by players they'll make it into my feedback post.

[harsh aurora]

Is anyone using Gilga ursa and having good results?
What's build user?

[frigid storm]

Oh? To me it feels like gilga also is less efficient in boss horde orn gear bc CS needs ward and orn gear often has little to no ward, maybe I'm just doing it wrong? Or did you mean Gursa Slice

[full wagon]

I didn't mean Horde, as that usually means sacrificing weapon bonuses, though I haven't tried CS strats in partial orn gear since the changes to how ward impacts damage. It might be more viable now.

[frigid storm]

How much do you make per dungeon, cuz that seems like a horrible method for farming orns. For reference just did a horde boss with mostly orn gear, no shrine or anything special, and made 400k orns. Assuming you have a shrine that's 800k. To make that equal to a decent endless run you would have to run 100 dungeons

[full wagon]

I generally make 2 million per hard boss, more on spelunking or Orn weekends. But the endless balance thing really is just another topic altogether But like I said, feel free to propose suggestions you think would make Gilga better at Orn endless. Just keep in mind that it's encouraged to have certain classes be better at certain things to encourage you too switch around and not play one class.

[frigid storm]

Definitely some classes should be better at some things. I just dont think some classes should be entirely unable to do some of the main content, like imagine if grand summoner couldn't kill amorri, or heretic couldn't sweep a boss horde dungeon. Thats kind of how gilga is with endless, its sort of just not possible.

Suggestion topic: rework gilga slightly to provide gilga with the ability to do endless dungeons with at least a below average ability while also helping Gherc have some unique identity and usefulness.

Pain points: complete inability to orn endless and gherc having no real unique identity.

Rework: Gilga herc's 'max ward' for purposes of determining SS damage is set when gilga first enters a dungeons. ie: gilg enters dungeons with 200k ward and then leaves and comes back with 50k ward, the ward contribution to SS damage will be based on the initial max of 200k.

Alternative rework: replace bastille 2 for gilga herc with a stat passive that increases based on damage taken, and scales higher. Build up would be very slow, but this would allow Gherc to be a strong potential tool for high Anguish raids and endless while still being extremely slow and clunky. This would also help give herc a better unique class identity as kind of a 'hulk' type class rather than just more-ward-gilga.

[oblique yoke]

Feel like Rework 1 is way too abusable. Like enter dungeon with the max ward you can, leave, and re-enter with a max attack build and you're circumventing the whole point of having a skill that scales with a defensive stat. The whole trade-off of a damage dealing skill scaling with defense/survivability is that it shouldn't be competitive with raw damage, or else there's no reason to build raw damage.

Rework 2 sounds cool, but would leave Herc having the same issues RS Corvus does, namely that there's almost nothing that lasts long enough for it to be worth having a ramping passive when you could do say, an Ultimastrikes build on GUrsa and wipe a raid in a fraction of the time Herc does.

[frigid storm]

First regarding your comments on rework 2:

Rework 2 is for things like anguish 50 raids where ultimastrikes isn't gonna just wipe the 100m HP amorri. Primarily, however, it is for endless. The goal is to have a RSCorvus, GSH, D.Ara type ability for gilga to allow it to work there. I understand that gherc won't be good or viable for a lot of content that way, but that's also okay. Now it has a niche.

RE Rework 1:

Also I dont think the enter with max ward and then go max attack is really that abusable bc ward doesn't matter past like 150k which is a rly low bar. If you were going below that it'd mean you're running a glass cannon build which is not needed for any dungeon content, or a loot build, which is exactly what this is meant to encourage.

[quick radish]

I find gilga ursa is even stronger now for raiding, also have more use in more content than his 2 gilga bro like towers and dungeons, it's playstyle is a bit like thief class which is mainly focused on critical

[vale bridge]

I hear a lot of people saying GUrsa needs high ALs before being better than the other gilgas.

From my experience, you need to be higher than AL40 (where i’m at) to get better results on GUrsa than base. I will say though, if you have a crit amity with GUrsa, you will get similar results using a crit build but be lacking in starting ward turns + less innate ward.

Faster good results if you use a ward start amity and play like a mad offensive gilga AS a GUrsa.

[quick radish]

Pre nerf? Sure, but post nerf i find gursa is way stronger and more useful than hercules which is why some people justified the nerf and told us to go play ursa instead, i even saw some "gilga main" who said they never play herc and only tasted ursa all their playtime flexing their build and some even laughed at the discussion thread for being too attached to cs/ss3 playstyle, here's some vids from my 0 al experiment

[full wagon]

So, i hate playing herc because of the statuses but here are a couple videos to compare base to herc using similar builds. These are both with Frenzy, which i find to be a superior pain in the arse to line up with other temp buffs.

Herc

HERC 2

Base 1

Base 2

I added to my issues post about Hercules identity as an issue

[lost sable]

I felt that miss deep inside my heart

By the looks of it it seems like not even a 75% ward power is enough to beat base gilg in terms of SS dmg

[cold bear]

If Hercs identity stays linked to SS/CS, I’d rather see more recovery then increased dmg

[regal hinge]

I don’t want to pick between one lol

Side note, I was thinking if we’re looking at reassessing spiked greaves/pauldrons and frenzy: maybe atlas stance can also be reassessed

[humble crater]

I'd like to +1 as a pain point "Frenzy's interaction with temp buffs"

[frigid storm]

Thanks for doing this!

[regal hinge]

Agreed. I dont use any of them anymore because of frenzy

[full wagon]

Just a humorous interlude https://aimusic.so/music/7491841-The-Shield-s-Lament

[lost sable]

Damn AI music scares me

[full wagon]

You should hear the alt metal version it composed

Alright, so at least so far, most people seem to be leaing towards another direction with Herc, so what are we thinking? What are some of these other directions you envision?

[cold bear]

Go into the direction of collateral damage, splitting cd among multiple targets for example

[frigid storm]

I think collateral is maybe not it. I'd like a more endless friendly stat passive.

[full wagon]

Personally if I wasn to pick a more Orn endless friendly Gilgamesh I'd lean Ursa, it's already ok at Endless

[cold bear]

Exchange crest of lyonesse for a 100% stat passive based on cd dmg dealt

That would open up endless and gilga endless will line in below realms capability’s

Hercules should be somewhat horde themed imo. Maybe interacting with cd or pseudo aoe skills

[frigid storm]

I feel like ursa already has a good identity, I wouldn't want it to change

[full wagon]

I am not sure why Ursa's identity would need to change, a small tweak here and there might make a surprising amount of difference.

[humble crater]

Personally I never understood why Ursa, the wild man with a two-hander, somehow has the lesser rank of Collateral Damage

[full wagon]

Well that was experimented with in Beta a bit

[jagged needle]

I voted “other” as herc RN look like Gilga+ on paper but in actuality it feels like less of a side grade and more a downgrade - in context of “survive ability” data I don’t think most any of us have an issue with any Gilga classes in general and surviving or completing content. Herc in particular being forced to run immunity gear makes you double down on surviving.

I’d like herc to have reasonable trade offs from base Gilga but have something compelling/fun about it that expresses playing Gilga in a differentish manner? So maybe this means CD focus, or something for endless or something related to shield useage

[oblique yoke]

I believe Strahd is saying GUrsa is already good at endless due to it being able to play a lot like RS, just without redlining and dodging

Going along with that, I feel like GUrsa being able to farm endless and play PvP well complements base Gilga well, which to me always seemed like it was best at towers and horde dungeons. Whether that's correct, logically Herc should excel in the area(s) the other variants don't; that will give it the best shot at having a unique and strong identity

[cold bear]

Current Gursa endless is still insanely inefficient and not at all comparable to rs capabilities imo

[frigid storm]

No redline, no zerks, no mystic feather... that's not even close. Maybe if Gursa had a +300% stats in endless dungeons passive 😂

[oblique yoke]

@frigid storm fair enough, but the main point I was trying to get across is that with the reduced power of SS/CS, there's room for a great niche for Herc to take as far as being the best option for long form content. After thinking about it more I personally really like the alternate suggestion IronCaptain offered yesterday

What if there was a skill that was added that has a high fail rate for classes lacking Collateral Damage, that increased in damage the more ward damage you've taken since the last time you used it?

[lost sable]

Gee i wonder how many orns they got in those runs

[tulip quarry]

Couple hundred

[jagged needle]

Yes, whenever anyone is speaking about endless the context is generally about orn farming, not depth

[chilly willow]

I mean g.ursa is pretty good for orn endless. Go ask abyss to show you on OL lol

No one is beating a d.ara let's be real lol

[lost sable]

Endless is marginally doable as gursa at best

If you have to resort to 100+ AL to make it work then its just silly

We also lost goblin fortresses ang farming for a few years too 🥲

It wasnt great but it was an alternative

[frigid storm]

Oh please. Just bc 100AL person can force something to work does not mean it works lol. Gursa is horrid for endless. Zero lines.

[chilly willow]

You realize most classes do need a fair amount of AL besides d.ara and maybe gs, right?

Not disagreeing gilga is the worst

It is I'm sure. Like strahd, horde boss usually kept up with the orn needs when I was gilga

[lost sable]

I kinda grown used to having a t6 stat passive lol but i wouldnt mind some alternatives

[frigid storm]

Heretic is fine at 0Al, Realm is fine at 0Al, beo is fine at 0Al, D.ara is fine at 0al, GS is fine at 0al. So no, that's not true at all.

[chilly willow]

Corvus is now because of the rework lol. 0 AL for orns was not good prior. And what's good? If you aren't making it to floor 400+ it's not that good. D.ara is hands down the best choice

See you're talking depth, not orn gains which is why I posted the gilga depth

[lost sable]

I think survivability plays a big role in endless orn farming. You can get a nice balance of huge dmg and survivability with all classes except for gilga.
RS has insane dmg and dodge
Heretic has insane dmg and sweet defenses
Beo has insane dmg and huge defenses
GS has summons
Deity has it all quite literally, even an OH SH*T button
Gilga has low dmg and mild defenses

[frigid storm]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about depth. I refer only to orn gains and my statement still stands on those grounds.

[chilly willow]

Then what's good? 0 AL heretic isnt making it to 400+ endless in full orn gear

[frigid storm]

It's possible. It would definitely make it to 300.

Still vastly better than gursa

[chilly willow]

Go do it and show me then

You probably haven't ever touched heretic lol

[frigid storm]

I went to heretic section of discord. First thing I saw? A guy advertising a heretic endless build that can "go deeper" than D.Ara

[past nymph]

Not disagreeing ursa is probably bad at endless, but I don't think beo is good at it either

[frigid storm]

Beo is not great, summons have pen issues. But it can still go full orn gear and go a little ways

Which is more than Gursa by a lot

[chilly willow]

With AL 😂

[lost sable]

i think if you can buff aegir you're already miles ahead of gilga 😂

[frigid storm]

Heretic is unaffected by quadratic scaling so if the build was comparable to D.ara at high AL, it would also be comparable at low AL.

[chilly willow]

Dude go play heretic seriously lol

[gritty hare]

It really cannot. You start suffering from missfests as early as the low 200s, and there's no riftrogue to shore them up. I find it weird that we're discussing other classes in a Gil thread though?

[frigid storm]

Low 200s? Come on now, even beoH which is infamously low dexterity is fine at that depth.

Regardless just run some accuracy boosting ang gear

[lost sable]

Ang endless might not be super ideal

Even if its ang1

[frigid storm]

Regardless of its exact performance, the point remains that gilga is by far the worst endless class.

[lost sable]

I wonder how better gursa would do if aegir was a 30% atk debuff only

[gusty widget]

ah i remember that time

[lost sable]

"That time" aegir didnt even debuff atk 👀

[past nymph]

Didnt ratakor set a depth record back then?

[gritty hare]

🤷 I'm telling you from my experience doing endless when it was in its infancy, when we didn't even run complete booster gear because the income bonuses didn't scale with quality. Regardless, getting back to Herc... I think it should lean more into the tank side of things rather than damage. Lack of steadfast makes the gameloop naturally trend towards that kind of playstyle, it's a PITA trying to get buffs to align through all the turn skipping statuses

[lost sable]

I'd love to see some tank efficiency in orna. We're always so fixated on maxing out dmg

[frigid storm]

Learning into tank rather than damage is kinda worthless. This game rewards speed, damage, and the ability to run farming gear

A pure tank is a purposeless thing

[lost sable]

Maybe ang might shake things up 🤔

[frigid storm]

In theory sure but not in practice. Maybe you can tank the ang30 amorri, but then you probably also aren't doing a worthwhile amount of damage to it

[gritty hare]

I mean, I get a thousand mats a day from my tank capabilities but I do see how that argument could be made

[frigid storm]

Territory defense?

I never really considered that a form of content, but yeah sure

[keen crypt]

I appreciate how much everyone is working on solutions but I think we all need to get real. NF will not put in enough changes enough to make this class relevant again. They simply won't. Odie has mentioned numerous times that this was their intention. I think we all need to think to ourselves, are we happy with its current state - or move on to another class. I think it's that simple. All this talk and no action.

[lost sable]

I aint NEVER ditching gilga 🫵

[regal hinge]

I think a simple buff to CD that would help the class without making anything OP exponentially, could be letting each attack on sweep/envy/any aoe, proc their own CD. I thought that was the case before CD dropped and was sad to see it wasn’t when released.

Or maybe each gilga gets their own unique CD effect.

Gursa can have the one mentioned above.

What would be good unique CD effects for base and herc?

[full wagon]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1381039835099435078

Still a work in progress

[lost sable]

While we're at it, a.labrys should get a better pseudo-aoe

[keen crypt]

Just another channel the devs will talk in but ultimately ignore. No changes to the class are coming anytime soon.

[full wagon]

Man, I know you feel pretty down right now but there's no need to be a black rain cloud. I've seen plenty of reason and communication that it's not without hope or I wouldn't be trying.

[frigid storm]

Strahd has been doing a great job compiling stuff and helping us get to something concise for the devs

[jagged needle]

Same. It’s just a little boost over all in pve. Gursa itself gets some more bonus via two hander, and a fat HP stick which helps everywhere

I think for me I’d rather charge passives just be left at prior tiers as they are uninteresting

[pine nebula]

I want to mimic this but in maybe a Nicer way? I think when we look at changes it's gotta be minor things. Bringing up the idea that herc needs to be totally redesigned, imo its never going to happen.

But bringing up ideas like greaves and pauldrons should be combined into 1 skill and frenzy needs to have a front end cost instead of a drain. Ideas like that etc. I could see those actually being implemented.

[brave marsh]

The 50% ward cost no drain frenzy I think fits with base and herc due to bastille (Odie idea way above), but what if Gursa’s frenzy didn’t cost a turn and remained the same. Ursa theme with dursa’s extra turn channelalus which I know has been controversial…

[pine nebula]

Could be an option. I think we need to narrow our ideas down imo. Some of them I saw are pretty indepth

Like herc getting rid of 2nd chance and gaining steadfast if it's staying the more "tank"

Or let them dual wield shields. Makes them that much tankier because of all the extra ward and then you can use all that ward in turn for SS etc

[fiery solar]

Maybe simple adjustments.

Suggestions 💡
Make frenzy a buff with no turn limit.

As long as we keep the ward high, we get frenzy buff.

[brave marsh]

Yeah, I agree with the minor tweak approach

[quick radish]

Might agree if the ward cost isn't too high, 25 for frenzy + 30 ss3= 55 -7 from herc bastille=48% drain every turn, gotta need full ward regen axe, amities & anguished gear ward regen passive to make it sustainable

[lost sable]

It was initially like this, and the reason why i didnt like it is because it made gilgas extremely dependant on ward regen from celestial adornments :/

[quick radish]

An idea just popped into my head, what if we got additional passive on herc bastille?, like convergence amity?, +20% ward skills effectiveness for example?

This way herc could focus on ward regen

[tepid quail]

What if Frenzy worked the opposite of Bastille? 100% ward frenzy buff 0/Bastille buff 100; 50% ward Frenzy buff 100/Bastille buff 0.

Or if the lower our percentage of ward the higher chance of CD and CD damage

[lost sable]

Isnt that already a thing?

Herc just got a 25% increase

Base and gursa = +50% ward power
Herc = +75% ward power

[quick radish]

Bruh ward power is the same thing?, I thought it's different from convergence, my bad 🤦🏼‍♂️

[lost sable]

I think it would be weird to have 2 antagonistic passives in the same character 🤔

You wouldnt be able to combo them ever

[tepid quail]

The way I see it is if your at 75% total ward then Frenzy would be at 50% total power and Bastille would be at 50% total power. Kind of like a sliding scale were the lower your ward is the higher your Atk/CD chance/CD damage increases with the reduction of Bastille stat boost.

Almost like your being worked up into a frenzy lowering stats but increasing overall damage.
Where as playing defensively would be like staying calm to keep your stats/defenses up.

I feel as a skill, Frenzy is creating to much juggling of ward upkeep and buffs to be beneficial. Moving it to be a passive would increase ways to interact with situations and create more diverse gameplay.

[lost sable]

Yes i definitely agree. Ward management is now the hardest its ever been

Especially now that we're being encouraged to move away from celestials

[full wagon]

Alright based on some of the feedback I've been getting I am going to make some suggestions in the form of yes no polls. See how they land with our audience here.

[tepid quail]

This poll I feel like will fail because if it doesn't start working till your below 50% ward then survivability is gone. Originally my thought was being at 50% ward you'd get the full benefit of Frenzy with diminishing returns as your ward recovered past the 50% mark activating Bastille.

[full wagon]

My point was to see if people would like it as a passive ability. Having it active while Bastille is active as well would probably be one I don't think we need a poll on, though I could be wrong. I can see some definite concerns of that being overpowered though.

I'll go ahead and do a poll on it though, might as well!

[frigid storm]

This I love.

[spare trench]

Fist part I'm ok, the second, I'm not sure

[full wagon]

Err...I am confused as the second is just a clarifier of the first?

[spare trench]

Oops, I mistranslated the sentence in my head.

[full wagon]

There was one more suggestion I wanted to poll but now I forget what it was. I'll likely remember it later

I'd like you all to evaluate each of these in a vacuum. When voting just think "Would I prefer this over current"

Don't look at it right now as picking one over the others

Ones that get positive results will make it into my ORN feedback post and we'll repoll to see of the proposed suggestions which ones are favored the most

[tepid quail]

I can definitely see the argument on power concerns but that's not what were worried about right now. Usability and being fun/engaging is more important with considering how Frenzy should be utilized.

[full wagon]

Alright, i think that covers most of the major themes from things I have in my notes, we'll let those stew for a few days

[regal hinge]

You’re the man strahd

[lost sable]

I dont have an opinion in quite a few of these yet

I wouldnt want gilga to be too buffed up

That may lead to a new deity trend. Everyone hocd to deity after the rework

I'd love to be able to manage my ward better though 😬

[full wagon]

Just keep in mind, consider each one independent of the rest

We might get some of these, none of these, something similar to these or something not related at all to any of them. They exist primarily as ideas and the players feel on each one of them independently matters

[lost sable]

I understand, but every gilga will vote yes for everything that feels like a buff

[full wagon]

Well I don't think that's true, many of them I feel would be buffs seem to be trending negative

For instance #1377614946178826290 message

That is a strict buff, taking absolutely nothing from Bastille and adding alternatives for low ward playstyles, but people don't seem to like it

On a totally unrelated note, I am about tired of rain.

[lost sable]

There are some exceptions for sure. I've voted in all of those i have a more or less ok opinion

I feel like this is getting somewhere though! Ty @full wagon :))

[thin viper]

Even if every vote was "yes", some suggestions would be voted on more than others

[lost sable]

Perfect this is what i went for 🙌

[woven granite]

did they change frenzy from 100% ward to cast?

[humble crater]

It's not 100%, I think it's 95%

[woven granite]

alright i was just wondering cause i got a screenie with non max ward having frenzy be avail.

[pine nebula]

Those voting options are solid. Simple fixes, not indepth, even if we only a couple of them it should maybe put us into a better spot

[lone thistle]

So what would be the ideal amount of ward i should have to start looking for atk, 200k? Or is it limited to a certain amount now?

[full wagon]

For sheer damage purposes I would try to balance ward and attack up to 200k ward, beyond that prioritize attack. Though increased ward will help with survivability, the more ward you have the more total you heal with each percent of regen.

[humble crater]

I think something like an Exhaustion debuff that would prevent Frenzy from being usable for 2-3 turns after it fades would be a nice counterbalance to this. Otherwise you're looking a situation where someone can just pump their ward regen and have Frenzy perpetually up.

[full wagon]

I'm honestly not sure that's a bad thing for long form content like Raids

It could be really great for non SS raiding builds where ward regen is easier to manage

[humble crater]

Oh, I love the suggestion for sure. But it does present the opportunity for infinite Frenzy, and I'm not sure Odie would go for that.

[obsidian lintel]

@full wagon I'd like to see a poll to harmonize frenzy with Bastille 🙂

[full wagon]

Define what you mean please?

[obsidian lintel]

When we have full ward, we have the full bonus of bastille (atk, def, res, etc), but using frenzy would deplete this bonus.
I think it would make more sense to reverse bastille, since I understood that we shall not hide behind thicc ward numbers. so reverting the effect from less ward for % stats bonus, would make bastille and frenzy work better together.

[full wagon]

So in essence you want Bastille to give bonus stats when below 50% ward witht he most bonus at 0 ward?

[obsidian lintel]

well...something like that. maybe 50-25%?

2% stats increase per 1% missing ward below 50%?

or 75-25, if we then start with 75% ward, we would still start with 0% stats bonus.

[full wagon]

Personally I'm not a fan of that one as I think it would be waaaay more difficult than trying to redline and it would not be useful in SS builds. We'd definitely have to leave the ward drain on Greaves/pauldrons.

It might pair well with Ursa

[lost sable]

Im not a huge fan of this either

[full wagon]

Doing Arisen Morrigan while trying to keep low ward seems like a nightmare, you are always just one ultimate from certain death.

Though now I am curious as to what people think the benefit would be? It seems to be somewhat liked so far.

[lost sable]

I think the idea of your attacks getting stronger as frenzy turns go by is compelling. Would also make you beefier when it runs out

But i think this would only add yet another layer of ward management for us to juggle

[full wagon]

I think it would just make you too dang squishy for Base Gilga. I think it might be interesting on Herc with the big HP pools though

would allow you a bit of cushion to use like Ashen rubies or Osmostrike etc

[quick radish]

It doesn't make sense imo and won't likely go through, frenzy should be the one adapted with bastille condition not the other way around 🤔, i think 50% ward cost upfront while still allowing recovery at the same time makes more sense to me

[lost sable]

It would also be nice if frenzy's 2 turn requirement would not reset between dg floors (and maybe towers) but i've said that already a few times. Dont wanna sound like a broken record but that'd be sweet

[frigid storm]

It'd be a very glassy lifestyle but it could be fun... assuming we got some kind of other buff/change to compensate

It's definitely weaker.. but the idea is intriguing

Plus it'd be good for pvp

[sudden cove]

gilga already too strong in PvP

[full wagon]

One I saw in another thread.

[full wagon]

I think it would be fun as an alternative but not as the main class passive.

[full wagon]

I'm not sure about this last one, but a quick Codex of valor gear shows there aren't many choices for building attack

[full wagon]

Also, i threw this one out to the wider audience just to see what the take is.

#💡│suggestions message

Up or down vote at your leisure!

[chilly willow]

Yep, they got buffed even with this "nerf". The whole point of this nerf was because they were a tank with mass damage, better than glass cannons, and here they are trying to get right back to that 😆. Pointless even engaging at this point hopefully it's just a looked over thread lol. They are insane damage wise still and SS is still the go to in anguish content. Needs more nerfs tbh

[full wagon]

How do you figure it is a buff, because of Frenzy?

[slow solstice]

Because he is hera

Can't use it well so want it nerfed

[lost sable]

Surely not since he's talking about pvp and theres no way in hell we're activating frenzy in pvp 😂

Im assuming he's talking about pvp since thats his main complaint history heheh

[tulip quarry]

There are some areas in the high end where it can be considered a buff for pvp, but I would still say overall its a nerf

[full wagon]

Full disclosure, I think this version of Spiked Shield is 'better' than the last for one reason. It doesn't pigeonhole you into one build nearly so badly. Though the change of something that has existed in one way for so long plus the addition of something else brand new on top has exposed some pain points that need to be eased, imo anyway. I am not sure yet, how it could be seen as a buff since damage potential was strictly reduced and fixed miss % was raised. Though the majority in my survey favor removing it currently.

So bottom line, I am genuinely curious as to what factors he is looking at that he considers it a buff.

[lost sable]

But I think he may be directing his attention to gilga but the problem may lie in SS

[tulip quarry]

For people like wrecked, who play Heretic and stuff like Dan in street fighter, it doesnt matter if someone deals 50% damage less if 30% is enough to one shot you. The 50k constant ward cost makes it a lot more reliable in second chance scenarios where previously your damage could have been nuked. Also think the relatively low damage cap (plus mammoth) encourages some tanky build thats may not have been used as much before (even if they were optimal into classes like heretic).

[chilly willow]

All abyss is rocking is SS in anguish. Sure, he's deity. Gilga hits harder but lost some of the survivability while deity kept it. Without the gear he has, gilga probably tops deity with SS for the majority and this is without frenzy. Frenzy 100% puts gilga over anyone for it, just have to be fragile which is more than fair tbh.

[chilly willow]

Uhhh, I've played gilga bro. Lmfao.

[chilly willow]

SS did recieve a pure buff in pvp. They aren't dealing less damage at all. Actually more on top of having damage with zero ward. The m1 ss3 recieved with a fixed miss chance is silly

[lost sable]

I think that, for anguish, deity is more of a super tank/high dps than gilga. Therefore the problem might be SS (or even deity lol)

[tulip quarry]

Agree that its not all downsides, but the idea that the damage is higher now is crazy. I used to be able to hit 1m with SS1

[full wagon]

It is an end game skill, it should be a great choice for some content. Should it be the best choice for Deity? I'm not sure. I did bring up though that the cap on ward (which is where other classes get ther penalty) could potentially lead to situations where the stat imbalances between classes make it better on other classes than intended.

[chilly willow]

It is SS overall. It won't be fixed the correct way though. SS has always been an issue. You were in the beta thread so I'm sure you saw odie post the history of it

[lost sable]

Yes, and i feel like other classes should receive more of a SS debuff and get som sort of buffs to other skills so they're not left without an alternative

[full wagon]

I have to say, I am dealing less damage. Even extremely low ward high attack BoF builds are only dealing about what my high ward builds did before. The only difference is I had less attack before so it was easier to see defense reduction. The trade off is as you all asked for, we now have to build glassy to do that damage.

[lost sable]

In my experience im dealing about 50% of the dmg i used to, which is alright. I was never gonna die in a raid (except for starscreen ult ).
I can deal more dmg with frenzy now, but only for about 1 or 2 turns since DC will fade and my ward will just keep burning even without attacking

[full wagon]

And at least so far I've yet to see any Screenshots of SS doing 600+k damage, which I did see before the patch (in pvp)

[grizzled obsidian]

Wrecked has a point, I also think it's still pretty strong in PvP, but only in PvP as well. But we're not asking to go back to how it was before, but rather to adjust the new tools (and change the old ones) to improve the dynamics of the class. It's pretty weird right now.

[full wagon]

From my end, it just feels like a constant shifting of the goal posts.
It's not cool that SS scales quadratically!
Ok, true enough that needs fixed.
It's not cool SS users can hide behind big ward and do big damage!
Ok, that gets fixed.
It's not cool I can't build dex to stop SS!
Ok, most people agree with that.
SS is still strong if people build high attack!
Alright, so what did you want us to do, go back to building big ward and hitting like marshmallows on a stick? Do you want to nerf SS damage enough where it's never used again in PVP because HS3 hits harder? I mean please tell me what level is acceptable to stop moving the posts around.

Right now it seems like everyone who was against SS got what they wanted, or soon will. I know fixed miss is still an aggravating point for many but it did get increased and very likely may go away in the next adjustment. The entire point of this thread has been to find a way to make this change more fluid for the Gilgamesh class and less clunky. Go back and look at all my polls and tell me which one is asking that we revert the changes.

[frigid storm]

Go spit your salt somewhere else. If you paid any attention to anything anyone else said, or actually played any content, you would have a much different opinion

[humble crater]

I wonder who the one vote was from... 🤔

[chilly willow]

If you paid attention to the beta thread and why this nerf came around you would know why frenzy was implemented the way it was lmao. It wasnt meant to allow you to be a tank and work well with class passives. It was implemented to give you big damage while taking away your survivability

SS is still dominating anguish and will be the go to for everyone once again even without frenzy

[humble crater]

No one cares about the beta thread bro

[chilly willow]

It was from the guy you responded to 😂 😂

[humble crater]

You're not contributing anything to this thread by just continuing to shriek "BETA THREAD"

[chilly willow]

This stemmed from it.

[chilly willow]

This is actually pure comedy that iron is the one that voted no.

[full wagon]

Frenzy was intended to give us more damage in long form content, like raids to help make up some portion of the difference that we lost in raiding damage, It had less than 2 weeks of testing, so it's understandable there might be some issues with how it synergizes with the class.

[chilly willow]

Funny brew, you jumped on the ss bandwagon with these changes. You were a rend/epee boy

[humble crater]

Yeah buddy, any wonder why you're so salty about it

[chilly willow]

Idc about it, you're Just giving me guild xp when I pass through lol

Take all you want, you pale in comparison to others

[full wagon]

Alright, let's lay off the back and forth. Insulting one another is not relevant to the thread

[humble crater]

Cool dude, I love that for you. Keep your personal baggage out of this thread, or leave it like you already said you were

[chilly willow]

You pulled me back into it sweetheart. You've always been bitter about me even when I didn't speak to you at all

[frigid storm]

Lol ironically that was me. I think new gilga should have better gear options, but they really need more options for swash gear rather than collateral stuff... at least at this point where just building collateral is not really a viable strategy... and especially not if the collateral bonuses on those gear pieces have other costs

[slow solstice]

Slowmode

[full wagon]

Last warning, no more jabs

[chilly willow]

https://youtube.com/shorts/tdQ3ejerCRc?si=YQKQ6vVmS8H7hhqL

[frigid storm]

So this is actually pretty misleading. That photo is from a deity build that did have several ascension

Only the vid u linked is gilga

[slow solstice]

Don't complain ss I see someone do rs II as good for raid ang

[humble crater]

Either way, pointing to the same 4 or 5 people is the definition of sampling bias

On top of confirmation bias

[slow solstice]

So in conclusion now gilga is as weak that they SS is worse than a deity right

[frigid storm]

Also not sure what you are trying to prove by showing a slow risky clear by someone with legitimately perfect anguished gear...

[slow solstice]

And other one say nerf SS since it is usable for their class not gilga

[chilly willow]

Video is 0 al gilga ang 17

Thats the point of anguished gear... you don't need to be buffed. No one wanted SS to be the go to and it is.

[full wagon]

Again, I'm pretty sure that if this had been prepatch that damage still would have been much larger than 1 million

[slow solstice]

Pre patch I hit 8m with minimal buff

Att and gait

[frigid storm]

It's the go to for gilga.... the class literally build around it. But it's not for other classes right now

Even gilga is finding alternatives for horde

[full wagon]

It is an end game skill, it should be the go to, at least for Gilgamesh. And the video is of a Gilgamesh doing alright damage. And I am pretty sure there are few people who have the gear selection that Abyss does to make AL 0 shine like that. Is it strong?

Sure but it should be, especially for Gilga

[slow solstice]

And as above deity is pretty better than gilga with temp buff

[chilly willow]

It is the go to at higher anguish. There is no maluses harming SS

[slow solstice]

So it isnt thread for nerf SS but another gameplay for gilga in future

Sure u can remove SS too but at least give gilga other things to keep up with other class

It is like in the bottom classline scenario now

[chilly willow]

There are options man. Tdubs posts them all the time lol. Just no one wants to pay attention to that

[full wagon]

Slowmode back on, make your posts count.

[slow solstice]

Bottom for endless, horde, and even in raid
Don't tell me it is good while gilga crit build is worse than most of other(beoh, rs, deity)

[quick radish]

Lemme guess...... Gursa crit collateral build?, so what's the point of gherc existence then if u just told everyone to play gursa 🤣

[full wagon]

Let's try to focus on the topic again and where we'd like to see changes made to work out some of the rough edges as a result of the changes made and the merits of those proposals.

[chilly willow]

G.herc has always been useless 😉 . Never touched that garbage when I played gilga. G.herc needs attention, but not damage necessarily. That's one I'll agree on

[sudden cove]

what's your point, Gherc should be able to do everything too?

[frigid storm]

You know what, I agree with wrecked. Remove gilga from the game and just refund all our celestial shards from buying the celestial classes, and refund all our ALs, we will all just swap over to deity and be happy as can be. 😂

[tulip quarry]

Threads getting a little out of hand, but the initial discussion was more so about usability/identity questions and was fairly power agnostic. Maybe if people have similar identity issues with their own class they could move to their own thread 🙂

[humble crater]

No, I wanna know what the AL 200 Beos think

[full wagon]

Again, this is not a SS/CS balance thread, it is about the Gilgamesh class as a whole and how it plays with a complete redesign of our signature skill and the new active ability and how to make the best of that going forward.

[quick radish]

Agreed some people just trying to rage bait, the fact he just said gherc is garbage and never touched it is enough for me not to take him seriously

[chilly willow]

It is without steadfast 😂 . I got up to 150 ALs on gilga from 90ish? Stick to base or g.ursa unless you love being statused non stop. Herc could use some love and probably lose the frenzy on it for something else.

[pine nebula]

I was just thinking this too. It feels like this thread has run its course. What started out as a good thread to collect info has turned into people fighting and calling the class useless. Odie originally had commented in here but now he's probably laughing watching this dumpster fire.

Were not getting any changes at this rate

[tulip quarry]

I think the polls/information compiled for the ORN thread is reasonable and actionabl.e

[grizzled obsidian]

I think we're doing well, Strahd did an excellent job gathering information in the midst of this madness and I believe that what will be passed on to Odie is well summarized. I appreciate your effort and dedication Strahd.

[pine nebula]

I apologize. Strahd is doing an amazing job trying to keep us in the right direction. Mad respect to him

[full wagon]

I want to leave it open for a few more days anyway if we get back on the rails. Though I can tell you wouldn't expect any action until at least July on any of the issues. So just try to be patient and hopefully we can get some progress on at least a couple of the most painful issues.

[oblique yoke]

I really like that you bring this up as it highlights what I think is the biggest issue with the Gilga family: the fact that utilizing ward and defense to do damage is sold as its main point, but there's only 4 offensive skills that utilize ward to do damage, and they're all different versions of the same idea. What if there was a diversified set of skills, like the rest of classes have, where you have an ultra high M1/low M2 skill, a low M1 very high M2 skill for raids, etc. The issue SS has is it's the ONLY tool in the toolbox and so it has to do EVERYTHING Gilga needs it to. Maybe make one that has a fixed miss chance and does moderate damage, and the rest of them are based on dexterity? Bring homing shield back in to help compensate or something. Idk I'm spitballing but a class who only has 4 main damaging skills is always going to feel the pain if there are changes made to them

[quick radish]

Agreed with the removal of fixed hit rate in favor of homing shield passive, that would enhance gilga identity as the true ward skills wielder and put some restriction to other class

[lost sable]

Would restrict beo but definitely not deity, the defresdexhpmana class

[oblique yoke]

Boi don't dig up deity, otherwise we'll be here all month 😂

[lost sable]

I do agree that SS skills would benefit greatly from more variety than different m1 and m2 values. Like:
SS - chance to temp. def/res
CS - it chains, its already unique
Ss2 - crittable (?)
Ss3 - fine as is, its the nuke that costs a lot of ward

[tulip quarry]

I think it would be interesting if SS2 (or some other new move) applied provoke in addition to low/moderate damage

[lost sable]

Ooh thats interesting too. Maybe that and some other effect? Because the vast majority isnt party playing.
Maybe ss1 crit (or something else entirely) and ss2 t.def/res + provoke

[thin viper]

(Give gilgamesh innate provoke passive)

[pine nebula]

I actually love this idea but you'd also have to buff up the damage on those other SS skills. Otherwise why use SS when I can use horizontal slash they does the same thing and doesn't cost ward

[woven granite]

I think the power of SS shouldn't be judged of someone w BIS gear. if we take a fresh 10. a lvl 250. and someone who has near Bis gear. each using the same skills were gonna get very diff results. Personally i think the poll of Valor class Gear being reassessed would help alot. either that or give warrior classlines more AoE options. Before i unlocked G.ursa i was using a sweep build for horde dgs and it was err.. underwhelming and i couldnt even run farming gear on chest and head while doing it. I dont want Gilg to just be able to 1 shot all dungeons all content, but adding in a skill? and offhand. or really just a more accessible way for us to go thru dungeons because im back to 5-10 minute boss hordes with GS3 if i want to use farming gear, which doesnt really feel good.

[humble crater]

The problem as I see it, is that at this point every other class has their identity tied to their passives and not skills. Think Avidity and Redlining, Flasks and Bluelining, Beastial Bond , Apex and temp buffs, Summons.

Gilg is still tied to a skill as their primary identity.

[normal gull]

Forgot about collateral?

[humble crater]

Well, my position is that that's the angle we need to lean into more at this point.

If Spiked Shield is and remains so accessible to other classlines, then it should be worked on to be recontextualized as such - an ability for ward-based builds and not necessarily for Gilga.

OR
If we want Spiked Shield to be the Gilga playstyle then it needs to be treated the same as Summons and Calls - virtually ineffective for any class that isn't the one it's intended for. Make Spiked Shield have a massive fixed accuracy debuff for any non-Valor class, with the possibility of having RSD and Dursa have a diminished version with a dex-based miss rate.

[full wagon]

Collateral Damage is pretty great, but it would be nice to see the class passives tied into it a bit more to weave it more into the class instead of just extra damage procs. I don't think it would take much in the case of Herc and Base but I'd really love to see it wrapped into Ursa in a much more immersive way.

I am not sure I agree that Spiked Shield should be THE Gilga playstyle. We've been in that rut long enough. Though I do think Gilga should remain the best user of it and I personally lean herc with being the top dog of SS. Though I am not sure more damage is the answer, I think maybe being more efficient or some other neat side ability that just makes it better/easier to use than on base.

Something that really makes it worth losing Siphon Ward and Steadfast

[pine nebula]

Honestly if all we got a frenzy change and a greaves/pauldrons change id be pretty happy. Sure you could tweak alot of things.

Make frenzy a 50 %ward cost let regen happen during it.

Combine pauldrons greaves get rid of the ward drain.

This class would feel alot better imo

[lost sable]

I think having it cost 50% up front may force us to recover ward right after. If we get a chunky t.buff duration increase then id be sold

[mint otter]

@chilly willow Agree with what you've been saying about SS 🍻

[chilly willow]

Trying to stay out of here at this point, they don't want to hear it 😆. Hopefully ORN keeps it under control behind the scenes. I know you will try at least

[full wagon]

If you have meaningful comments about any of the identified issues in the pinned posts and would like to contribute, feel free. If you just want to complain about SS in an abrasive way to a crowd that many of which feel like their main class just got turned on it's ear, then I wouldn't expect it to be received well.

It's not that you don't have some points to be made but it is the way and place you are trying to make them. In other words, if you feel there are still significant issues with SS balance that need worked out, feel free to make another thread. I will tell you that 66% of the people (70% of respondents are strictly Gilgamesh) in my survey support removing Fixed Miss, maybe you can start with that discussion point.

Heck, if you don't want your name on it I'll even go create the thread for you, just say so.

[sand glen]

I second this. I picked up Herc because I liked the idea of using ward as a source of damage/healing, having to manage the consumption and recovery rate to not die but still being able to deal damage, and Herc was meant to be "the best" at it. Right now I feel it's a worse version of base Gilgamesh. Some suggestions I think could help:

• Remove Second Chance and add Steadfast. This free some slots that were used before for status protection and allows to focus on atk or anything else.
• Add sword proficiency. It's not that much but some swords have collateral damage/chance/ward and might open up the possibility of different builds.
• Maybe redo the ward consumption on CS. It's quite tough keeping up the ward while doing towers and horde dungeons.
• Introduce endgame shields with activated abilities such as Windtamer Shield, so we are not locked to Spiked Shield for almost everything.
• Maybe non celestial ward regen adornments?

[lost sable]

I think more endgame shields and a buff to hercules passive would be nice. +15% to offhands feel very unsatisfying, especially since we ever only use SGS, which has no stats other than ward

[full wagon]

I have tons of ideas. for instance, what if bastille had a passive which when 'using' ward gave a good chance at getting any number of temp attack up buffs. And Bastille 2 doubled that chance?

I'm an idea guy, I can bounce ideas off the wall all day long

Or maybe CD temp ups

Or both shrug

[lost sable]

I like the idea of CD temp ups better than atk ones solely because thats dursa's thing.

[full wagon]

One of my biggest issues with using Frenzy right now is how hard it is to line up with any temp buffs. And the damage bonus alone is not enough to make up for not using them.

You are ahead to use DC and skip Frenzy than use Frenzy and Skip DC

[full wagon]

Problem I have with that is then that makes Herc probably the best user of CD, which so far my survey indicates should be in the wheelhouse of Ursa

[lost sable]

Yeah that makes sense ://

[jagged needle]

i would like frenzy more if ward activation was at a lower threshold like 75-80.

[full wagon]

Overall, I really would like some more synergies between the class abilities, skills and gear

[pine nebula]

Has anyone messed with dual wielding on herc? I just got this and intrigued it intrigued me. I can get like 230% ward on it godforged on herc

[oblique yoke]

Looks intriguing but that's not actually dual wielding, it's an off-hand slot by default. If it was true DW then you'd be subject to the 35% (?) penalty.

[lost sable]

Looks even better then since theres the 15% bonus from herc

[pine nebula]

Yeah true. I just realized that. Had a brain fart. Sorry lol

[lost sable]

Oh wait. The stats are negative lol thats worse for herc passive 😂

[pine nebula]

Yeap.. Godforged they get dropped down to - 76 but then the herc passive brings em back up

[jagged needle]

no one uses this because of the negative stats

[pine nebula]

If you pair it with bristles and go for some kind of crit build. With CD 4 and bastille 2. Maybe something in there? You're obviously not going to be using SS but maybe another ability?

Just trying to think outside the box here

[sudden sierra]

May i ask why you buff twice before you attack? Im not a gilga player, im just interested in the logic

[lost sable]

I think thats just him trying to manage ward to activate frenzy

[sudden sierra]

Oooh. Didnt thank about that. Thank you!

[jagged needle]

If you pair with bristles you nerf your attack even further.

That item has been around for several years now and, not to be a complete hater 😆, but unless it’s stats get changed around there’s no good use case for it

Any crit build will be served best by running a celestial weapon with prom hands and a weapon dual wield

[pine nebula]

Oh yeah I know you're not being a hater. In all my games I love to find the items people don't use and try and find something to make it good

[jagged needle]

I didn’t notice before but it does have 20% CD dmg and 2 cd chance so perhaps there is something it could do in some sort of CD build. Only problem is that if you dual wield you can get better CD damage by using mortars

[pine nebula]

Yep. The main hand also has the same CD stats

[full wagon]

I was trying to do comparitive videos, so i wanted the exact same buffs up

And I missed my one attack, temp buffs faded, so I had to rebuff all over again.

but yeah Frenzy is also clunk and sometimes when you want to use it it's not available

If I was just doing actual raiding I would not be nearly so picky

[pine nebula]

While the damage may be lower on a normal attack I should make up for it a bunch with the CD damage

If I can get an ornstes main hand I'll probably try it out. Might end up being better on base gilg but that's what testing is for

But an extra 80% CD damage with both weapons with mortars seems pretty damn good on top of passives

[jagged needle]

mortars can only go into weapons not an offhand.

[pine nebula]

Oh. Mb then 70%

[jagged needle]

any chance you farmed begx/y?

[pine nebula]

Unless ornate MH gives an extra slot chance compared to legendary.

I did a bit. Didn't get anything good sadly

[elfin falcon]

https://bigthink.com/high-culture/cu-chulainn/

just wanted to chime in that a Frenzy or Berserk battle mode for the warrior archetype in a fantasy such as Orna is, is 100% canon

[blissful creek]

I use it! It was the best ward offhand I got back in 2021

[pine nebula]

I will make a build work with those weapons. You guys will see! 😂

[blissful creek]

Exactly me!!
Finally got this to make my swordsman of Two swords
One for attack, one for ward

[pine nebula]

I'm burning through balin and finesse raids. As long as I can get a good ornate weapon drop I can do it

[blissful creek]

https://tenor.com/view/godspeed-boys-eldridge-finestkind-good-luck-boys-god-be-with-you-gif-10464250728716087680

[devout flax]

My favourite horde boss offhand in ang 1.0 when I was gilga at that time with bof spec and tree nut..
Unfortunately, tree nut stats change now from mag to def..

[full wagon]

#💡│suggestions message

#💡│suggestions message

A couple broad based suggestions for people to mull over

What would you all think of ditching Bastille 2 completely and transforming it into a scaling buff that increased your stats by X% based on what percentage of damage was taken to your ward in the previous 3 turns. I am not sure if that is even technically possible and it's a bit of a radical idea, but it could be very interesting lending a gets tougher as you hit it vibe.

[cold bear]

That would be a decently interesting idea for Hercules, I wouldn’t like gilga base losing bastille for that. Basically forces you into swash or high anguish

[frigid storm]

Just previous three turns?

[cold bear]

Yes to that, but honestly just because any change to Hercules will be more interesting then base gilga + 20% ward and status suffering.

[full wagon]

I was only referring to Bastille 2, so Herc only

[woven granite]

I would say it would be wayyy to rng/raid based. How many times do raids charge ultis for 2-3 turns and then your boost would fall off.maybe if it was throughout the fight. It would become just too situational imo if it was a 2-3 turn then falloff in exchange for a 60% stat buff at 100% ward with bastille 2?

[full wagon]

Yep, your stat bonus would fall off if you didn't get hit for 3 turns, but the moment you eat an ult it's going to be right back to the sky. I think the bonus would have to be 100% to make it worthwhile but I can see how some people wouldn't like the variable nature of it.

I dislike the suggestion tool, there's no way to see why people don't like a complex idea, maybe they don't like one part of it, maybe they don't like all of it, maybe they just don't like it cause they want something else.

[frigid storm]

I'd like frenzy to only last two or three turns. It's hard to use it for more than 2 , and it really hampers regen after for recovering. Or maybe have frenzy give a bonus to ward recoup when it ends?

[humble ravine]

Pretty new for Gilgamesh, only 234 lvl 8 AL.
Tried to swap class from summoner, but it gone wrong.
With gear below towers are struggle, endless or horde dungeons feel painfull.
Only thing that i can do it's ai pvp , cause at my lvl most opponents have less.
I really want to play warrior, but summoner with random gear, buggane and penguin performs better.

Gilgamesh seems to need maximum effort for minimum result right now.

[keen crypt]

How are full colat dmg builds fairing? anyone tested them recently?

[pine nebula]

Ty for chiming in with that. @humble ravine maybe we can this class less gear dependent? I'm not sure how you would do that but might actually be a good idea.

[quick radish]

U mean collateral with ss3? On raids?

[frigid storm]

This is the reality of gilgamesh. You need near perfect gear just for mediocre performance. Also... dont even try endless lol

[fiery solar]

I feel bad for you 😂

[gritty hare]

An early gil should be trying guarding strikes/osmostrike with tree nuts for collateral imo. With a spiked shield 3 at the end for the beefier mob in the tower encounter

[frigid storm]

That is such a horrible way to play lol

[quick radish]

That's how i play early t10 but without the ss3 part, only guarding strikes 4 all the way 🤣

[frigid storm]

early gilga is so underpowered its not even funny

[fierce oxide]

I recently got my Gilga alt to T10 and it was such a let down compared to my other alts. I had decent gear, but it REALLY takes ALs to get that insane ward number to be able to make the class effective. So after getting frustrated and then trying to make it crit with realmstrikes I finally started messing with collateral damage. And it's a lot more fun!

Like the answer to world boss farming is to cover your gear with nuts and go collateral everything first turn.

[frigid storm]

Neat, do you use the collateral damage adorns, or the finesse gear? Collateral is like crit for gilga

[fierce oxide]

Mostly I use those tree nuts with some acorns for mana regen.

This poor new T10 is chronically broke for gold, so it's slow switching things around.

But the Labrys along with Morrigan gear gives you lots of chance and damage, but the HP/Mana loss of the morrigan tanks your ward. :/

[quick radish]

I don't recommend morri gear for early t10, -500 hp & mana at that stage are really huge for you

[humble ravine]

Empire strikes really nice too.
Early gil can try osmostrikes, but reality is early gil just don't. Play other class. Summoner with literally same gilga gear including astroaxe can clear 50 lvl towers. I don't know why i should play warrior in that circumstances. There's no benefits of playing Gilgamesh.

Other class with same equipment (beo, summoners) can do much more. Summoners can do much nore damage focusing only on defence, beo's base stats give them almost same amount of ward or even more.
I'm still determined to play gilga, maybe i'll farm for Gursa too, but i need to get labrys and arisen shield anyway. Mammon farm at t10 pretty uncomfortable. I could clear 10 monuments and 6 dungeons and get 1 of them.

I even consume event shroom, buff all i can and all i can got is 850 k, that can be done with other classes literally in green gear.

To be fair, it's still SS 2.
It could be 15-20% better with ss3.

[sudden cove]

NGL i'm surprise you can output this much damage with the loadout you show earlier

and no, it cant be done by other classes with green stuff outside of Beo and eventually Summoner imo

[humble ravine]

It will be nice, if you can share some experience about this and share how to perform better.

[humble ravine]

Sounds fair, rs, heretic and gods are depending gear too.

[frigid storm]

Easy as beo, easy summoner, fairly easy as realm, doable as heretic. All these classes have less issues setting, and can output max damage for longer. Only maybe deity is a bit behind at low levels

[sudden cove]

You gotta explain me how Summoner and realm have less issue setting ?
RS gotta buff the same way and also redline (and so DB). Then he's never safe
Summoner gotta full summon while staying alive. And a lvl234 AL 10 base summoner will probably not output 500k+ damages per turn

And lets admit they do output the same damage or even a little more, they're far from being as safe

not sure for base Hera since rework, but sub level 235 they will mostly spam fey element spells and thus need a crit built that make them squishy anyway (and is costly)

[fierce oxide]

As a Beo main who went and made alts of the other classes and leveled them all up to 10. Beo with arisen spiritgarm and fey gerd gear is easy mode for towers specifically. Being able to 1 shot most tower monsters at turn 1 each turn while focusing on defense is a game changer. I've seen suggestions for heretics and realmshifters to switch to this build just to get started on towers. So I don't feel it's a fair comparison to complain about Gilga on this.

[sudden cove]

here, for what its worth, summons damage from my lvl249 AL0 Alt as summoner/benefactor
with and without DC+rhada pact

i've no idea of what i'm doing with GS, but i really dont think this class can output 600k damages with low effort. GS is bad at raiding.
Loadout for ref

[cold bear]

I’ve tried 0 AL realm again and tbh damage is roughly the same. Survivability is also the same imo. My realm has 1/3rd of gilgas ward but only gets hit 30% of the time. Recasting DB is the only thing that’s dragging down my sustained DPS on realm, compared to gilga having to re ward every couple turns. Free turns and collateral dmg even out pretty well.

[blissful creek]

Heretic before rework I could double cast after weaving elements for almost 4.8m damage, and I was using gear with almost no adorns or thought behind it besides high def/res/mag

With Beo, I just took my Gilgamesh build, bought an ASG and popped off.

I have all the classes, and have made builds for all the classes, but Gilgamesh is the only class that gives me those Paladin vibes I like. Honestly, I’d be okay with not having to rely on SS/CS for Gilgamesh, but I want that bastion of defense feel, while also still being able to raid and it not take 3 hours.

[blissful creek]

Been t10 for 4 years now and still no Arisen shield for me. Got about 5 arisen labrys’s though, and they have the SSTTAAATTTSS
And Gungnir. Definitely worth it too

[sudden cove]

you outputed 5m damage from an AL0 lvl 234 base Hera with low tier stuff bro?
Dang, gotta HoC xD
but yeah i'm not up to date about hera tbh

[sand glen]

Question. How are you building for towers now? Do you still use Chained Shield? I'm AL18 on base Gilga and Raider spec now for most content, but I still have hard times on higher tower floors

[normal hazel]

lvl 242 AL0 Cataphract

Raider

For reference, I tested this with other classes assuming level 235, using the same buffs: DC, Snorta/Gurnnr, and Berserk III. I don’t have any Celestial classes or weapons, all the weapons I used were Beguiled variants.

Realmshifter/Raider with 40% crit amity consistently hits 1.5M–1.7M. From my experience, it feels safer than Gilgamesh running Frenzy.

Heretic/Oracle x2 40% crit damage amities after the rework he no longer has Weaved Elements. With Aligned Sigilflask, he hits around 1M–1.1M.

Deity setup similar to Realm, hits around 600K–800K.

Beowulf with ASG and Gerd gear hits between 1M–4M, depending on the dog's self-buffs and I’m not even using Berserk here.

I don’t have Summoner

[quick radish]

I was using guarding strikes 4 with arisen labrys at the start, then evolved into petless eastern regalia mixed use of chained shield & guarding strikes 4, now with a bunch of al i used my dungeon setup with gandring bof spec.

It's hard at the start but once you get your collateral set-up you'll like it.

[sand glen]

Thanks for the feedback! Would you mind sharing your build if it's ok?

[oblique yoke]

Has anyone tried GUrsa with YBF/A Nagamaki and bristles/tree nuts? I was messing around with that a bit and even a piece of T4 fomorian warrior gear, it felt pretty cool. Definitely would want to put some CD damage mortars into the weapon though. I just didn't wanna change mine since it's currently adorned for my RS setups

[lost sable]

Havent tested yet but I'm cooking up some of those armor pieces in blacksmith

Its a bit overly squishy in gursa since his ward is atrocious so idk how this will go in ang horde dgs. Also with the new shackles i still have quite a few malancholy lvls to go before i need to abandon swansong

[devout flax]

What is your preference spec?
BoF, DoF, Raider, or Berserker?
If you have 1 diabolus, you can get 100% cola chance..

[full wagon]

I've updated the ORN feedback thread btw

[devout flax]

I already try it in beta and upload it on beta thread when Pommel of Ursa exist..

[oblique yoke]

I've been using BoF and building low def but obviously that's not to everyone's taste. That said the extra turns on kills are really the bread and butter of what makes the setup fast and effective

[cold bear]

I’ve tried Ymir w some crit + cd damage. Full bristle set for max cd chance. It’s alright on BoF, hurts a bit to miss 40% crit because BB1 amity for tower. Not insanely outstanding but alright as cs alternative

[devout flax]

Slice with t4 sumner house set can hit up to 3 target + 1 from collateral if triggered, but hard to reach 100% cola chance..
Above 50% would be a good one since you need to build up some atk..
You can cover crit on weapon, mix it with sand mortar..
4 - 6 for me is the ideal which means 50% - 60% damage of collateral damage..

[lost sable]

I wish we had a new non crittable pseudo aoe on labrys so we could explore new things a bit better. In the current state i feel like we're stuck in crit builds

[devout flax]

Ravage on Labryss..
🙃

[cold bear]

That and also change ravage to always hit all enemies. I really enjoyed Kerberos claws build wise but compared to gandering it’s really bad

[lost sable]

I wouldnt mind it being a pseudo aoe. Windtamer shield is a 3 target pseudo and its not even a 2 hander. Pure warriors dont benefit that much from the 2 handed rework. Its a great rework nonetheless, but i feel like labrys could get a little something to make it peachy

[quick radish]

The evolution from left to right, pay no mind towards the adornments since i used the right one now.

1st and 2nd used oracle spec with 30% dragon dmg each slot, 3rd one used bof spec with 5 turn ward start + 40% crit effectiveness

[full wagon]

I really need to drop some moons and farm some more mortars so i don't have to smelt and reapply so much

[humble ravine]

I do 300-500k damage without ancient dragons and AL at summoner

[humble ravine]

Try event penguins, they do *3 damage as buggane, they have deific channel

Example 360 k one turn

[humble ravine]

It's with world farm gear with only +25% summon power at all

[fierce oxide]

GS is amazing at raiding! With your summons out there is less than a 1/6 chance of taking a hit. So you'd put gear that boosts your summons or makes things easier like the robe for Gods of Aaru. But it's also slow as you do good to do get big hits from things and they usually take a while. Like the penguins each take 3 turns to cast Deific Channel. :/ ASG takes 3 turns for great meditation and then 3 more turns for each spell. But my ASG can easily do over 1m damage from each of those spells.

I just wish the tree nuts gave 1% ward. Even if it was a hard 1% where even superior and better only gave 1% ward. Because putting them into my gear does take down my ward quite a bit.

[full wagon]

Tree nuts were launched right after CD was introduced. At that time CD was kind of envisioned as an alternative to ward builds. That vision has obviously morphed a bit, hence why we may need some more CD options

[sudden cove]

There are a crazy amount of GS who do not agree with you here #1101026806489939968 message

[fierce oxide]

I thought we were talking about new T10s? Hence the basic gear? That less than 1/6 chance of getting hit is a game changer. A new T10 summoner can start working on Morrigan gear if they want to. (that gear sucks for summoners.) But yes, as you get all best in slot gear and ascension levels, summoners BECOME the worst at raiding because they are so slow compared to other end game classes with comparable gear/ALs.

On that note, I'd argue that Gilga may be the hardest as a new T10? Partially because everyone is focused on spiked shield, which is VERY gear dependent. You may survive raids ok because you are wearing the gear with the most def/res possible. But without all the ALs and 2% ward adorns your spiked shield 1 sucks.

I know the latest update made my newish Gilga work better in raids, partially because I was able to switch from my gilga axe to my ornate arisen fey neman havoc. I had lucked into that with my 2nd a morrigan raid ever with that alt.

[crude pond]

I've been playing with this. Melancholy only at 4, so I've been rocking this:

Slice does a great job, I'm a BOF here mainly for speed, and with a stone warg I've had plenty of Ward replenishment.

Once I hit melancholy 5, I'll be headed to this-
To try and offset the AL loss of going from 82 to shackles. I've tried it out at ang 4 and it slaps. Consistent collateral, hits hard, but overkill before shackles.

[humble ravine]

Is there any gursa build? I got 94/100 labrys and want to know hom much gear i need for that class.

[crude pond]

For what content? There's an example dungeon horde build above you, that's probably not optimized, but decent

You could sub the YBF for labrys, but you lose the possible extra target of slice, but it could work if you have enough nuts/bristles.
You'll want to use HS3 then

[humble ravine]

Can you show your skill list,please.
I want to play gilga as general, but for Hercules it seems to need really goos gear, maybe gursa performs better

[crude pond]

Sure. Again this is un-optimized haha

For herc I assume you mean for spiked shield raiding/chain shield content?

[lost sable]

SNOTRA OUT OF NOWHERE

[crude pond]

Sometimes I'll throw on my swansong, and I hate switching spells lol

[regal hinge]

I only recently started saving load outs myself instead of manually selecting everything. It’s worth it 100%

[crude pond]

Let a man be lazy haha
If it ain't for endless or pvp, I ain't saving it

[quick radish]

Gursa performs better generally compared to hercules yes, the sick children of the class 🤣

[pine nebula]

I second this. More options for CD could be fun. I'm cool with where SS and CS are at. Let's all classes be able to use those skills like they are now but we can really dive in CD

[full wagon]

I'm not sure I really like SS/CS where they are atm. They aren't terrible but I don't feel they are in a good place overall

Overall Damagewise they are certainly more balanced than before

At least on Gilga

[lost sable]

Also i think CS may be a bit unusable. Dmg is insanely low and the ward drain is just over the top

Its probably better to run hybrid cele + windtamer.
I wouldnt be so sad if 1. arisen labrys got another secondary and/or ymir agathodaemon hammer got buffed

[full wagon]

I'm still doing Anguish 1 Hordes, but I did have to drop from 50, The ward drain on top of the damage I was taking was pretty hateful. I am not sure that's a bad thing though. I never felt like I should have been doing Anguish 50 to begin with

[humble ravine]

Does anyone know new SS formula?

[lost sable]

Yes, come to think of it, youre right. It may put CS in a niche case scenario. Although thats the only aoe intended for gherc since he's the shield guy.
I'd love to see agatho buff or rhadas greatsword rework though

[sudden sierra]

We found out why the gilga's say they dont do damahe

[lost sable]

Get out 😡

[full wagon]

The nice thing is now even if you do take a big hit as long as you aren't clear out of ward CS/SS still hits hard

[quick radish]

The ward drain from combined usage of ss3 & frenzy definitely too much, it locked me into celestial axe with prom feet to sustain the ward consumption, without it my ward would be depleted within 3 turns.

Not very friendly for anguish raiding where non celestial weapon would eventually outshine celestial ones due to demonworking tools and anguish passive.

[crude pond]

Right. It's saving the change for me.

[regal hinge]

Have you guys ever faced a situation where you wanted to attack one, but not two mobs? Like in the beginning of a dungeon when you wanted to get buffs up.

Would be nice to have a strong attack, which has a 0% chance of activating collateral damage, added to the arsenal.

[woven granite]

i used ss3 with a collat build. but i only had towers up to f45 since the adjustments, some fights were dodgy but the disciple of finesse spec carried me

im still of the opinion that the most broken thing in the game at the moment are the multiple turns in a row specs/passives.

[quick radish]

Does accuracy % help increase the fixed hit rate of ss3?

[full wagon]

I usually just use the attack button, not enough to kill it but the collateral finishes it off. For anguish 2.0 with HP scaling it might take some other skill that does enough damage to wound it but not kill it completely. (edited from Ascension 2.0 which does not exist)

[sand glen]

Thank you! Working with a build like this while some of my gear is being upgraded. Have not unlocked the DoF spec yet but looks like a good option

[obsidian lintel]

ascension 2.0? Are there any information I can read about that?

[shrewd root]

I think strahd meant anguish 2.0

[lost sable]

This man threatening us with a good time 😭

[pine nebula]

I'm not completely sure how to make a suggestion post. Maybe someone else can do it and we can talk about it here too.
On the status screen Can we get what % chance for CD we have accumulated. That way I don't have to count each piece separately

[full wagon]

Yes I did in fact mean Anguish 2.0

[old crane]

I use hercules+cataphract, al25, and honestly after some changes to my decision making (particularly around frenzy) and a slight update to my celestial axe, my damage is the same or higher than before. I think I hit a titan for 4m the other say which ive never done ahah. The 70% ward power thing was major. Admittedly, this is anguish (2.0) 3 or 4 towers and raids

[naive cape]

I keep seeing mention of various collateral builds being posted, but I don't see any in the warrior channel. Is there a particular place I should be checking for some ideas? I'm torn between building for crit and collateral vs pure collateral. I'm also curious what skills people are using for collateral builds, especially for horde dungeons and non crit builds.

I put together a decent crit/collateral GUrsa build using Ymir Brilliant Feathers and Slice, but I don't expect it will scale well with higher Anguish in towers.

[quick radish]

Would like to see some non crit collateral gursa build as well, i also in some need of inspiration 😂

[oblique yoke]

Can always check the Gilga channel in the Orna Legends discord. Not sure if you're looking for like a starter t10 build or a lategame one but I would think Slice would be pretty solid in Anguish since it has a pretty high M1, though there are crit maluses you'll have to deal with

[naive cape]

Not starter, but not end end game. I'm AL 34. I'm curious if a pure collateral damage setup with mortars, etc would outshine a crit/collateral combo build. I'm not sure what the best Amity choice for that would be, though. I'm guessing accessory effectiveness with two Trev charms, though. And I have no idea what skills would be best for it 🤷

Also, I don't know if any weapons better suited to it than Labrys, but I might be missing something. I can't imagine it would work with a celestial weapon since you lose the mortars. But now I'm rambling and you can see why I'm looking for a muse 😂

[quick radish]

The only build i can think of is petless cs collateral build with dof for towers, might need some ward regen passive from anguish crucible, but im too lazy to do towers nowadays 😂

[naive cape]

Is that an "all skills are hybrid" Amity? I haven't been playing long enough for that chest yet. Soon™

[quick radish]

U mean the amity?, nah it's 15% dmg at full hp + 5 turn ward start, and the chest would come soon at summer

[naive cape]

I might try something similar. I got a really sweet amity yesterday. It's all skills are hybrid with +15% hybrid damage.

[lost sable]

What % is that regalia?

[quick radish]

That's sweet, align so well with the build above but u need ward start for cs/ss now.

The regalia is 97%.

[naive cape]

Could try it with Cataphract and lose the DoF free turns 🤷

Or Arisen Aaru Leggings

[oblique yoke]

Accessory effectiveness amities don't boost trev charms. If you're going for pure collateral damage, you would ideally run an element, probably faction if using YBF, with the corresponding amity. Or if worst comes to worst, 15% damage at full hp or something.

If you check out the Ornation podcast, one of the hosts talks about a collat/crit GUrsa build he liked, and this was before 2h weapons had multi-target skills

[old crane]

I was doing some number crunching and testing at work (lol), and strikes of ursa seems promising now

[quick radish]

Share it here when u done 👍🏼, would like to see it

[keen crypt]

Do you know if they boost Lugas Gauntlets?

[sudden sierra]

The amity only boosts raw stats on them, anything that is written as a stat, like ward, attack, orn%, etc.

[cold bear]

Isn’t 15% 2 hand a stat 🤔

[sudden sierra]

is it displayed under the item slot when you equip it?

[lost sable]

Well no but neither is +%orns 🫠

[heady nacelle]

Scaling stats might be a better way to word it

[cold bear]

But it is literally the same as orns/xp/luck, but those stat are working. Kinda weird

[heady nacelle]

This!

[sudden sierra]

Fair.

[oblique yoke]

Yeah sadly there isn't a super clear delineation. You kinda just have to remember which stats are and aren't static. Though proc rates are always static afaik.

[gritty hare]

Results of "building into attack". Think the results speak for themselves. Can we call it how it is and just say "build swash" instead of build attack. Damage feels so low for using a nearly 1700 attack weapon, hyperion piece and near perfect windtamer shoes. Also I think my damn mammoth is broken. The build relies on debuffs from bear's and gunnr (and actual threatening damage from higher ang2) in combination with riftguard behind divine bastion to keep me at full health to take advantage of the dual damage at full hp amities. But mammoth is asleep every time I try raiding with it.

[lost sable]

No way, somethings wrong. What attack stat in stat screen?

[gritty hare]

7419

[frigid storm]

What is your AL?

[gritty hare]

80

[frigid storm]

80 ALs... great set of gear, building into attack, and that kind of damage? Something is seriously wrong

[gritty hare]

It sure doesn't make me want to try godforging the hyperion chest. Really feels like mammoth is broken or something. That's with nearly 30% additional pet action. I can't imagine what it'll be like with pec action maluses lmao. We're gonna need a super bestial pot or something

[lost sable]

Thats indeed weird. He should at least be spamming the offensive spell. Do you have an amity with pet act malus in world loadout. Yoshi said there might be a bug related to that

[frigid storm]

Horrid pet act aside, the damage is abysmal, nobody with 80 AL should be hitting like a wet rag

[gritty hare]

Nope, I checked that after he told me. I think there is just something bugging it in raids. It's way more active in towers

[lost sable]

I checked it out for myself because I was sure there was something wrong with his loadout but i got similar results 😐

[lost sable]

Damn its not bad dmg but thats not at all what i was expecting.
200k ward/15.7k atk
(No sgs though, i was trying to push attack as much as i could)
Edit: ang 4

[gritty hare]

Looking back at the video, the pet action doesn't seem bad. Was just expecting to be at full health with divine bastion and riftguard but ashen phoenix isn't an aggressive raid, it spams DC. It's just the only high health raid I had to test on, already killed all my morris and saving my event scrolls for when I switch over to ang2

[obsidian lintel]

is it me, or does that look low for AL80 with pretty good gear?

[gritty hare]

That's my biggest issue with it, is being pigeonholed into swash. It's reminiscent of the (justified) complaint of heretics having to build into ultima quickcast sequencer and also being glassy as hecc, but they have other options now. I want to utilize the defensive bonuses multiplied by the ascensions I've grinded

[lost sable]

I think we will need to use multipliers to unleash full potential. +25% from beguiled and +50% from zerk3 feels way more effective than going swash. Getting a bigger number plus a good %CD dmg will be vital. I can also tank a lot better with raider (though thats not what i was testing)

Makes me feel like +buff duration would be a godsend since we're gonna have to manage hp ticks, ward, t.buffs and frenzy

[lost sable]

Ok its official: when world raiding your pet act is coming from world loadout. Just tried with 0% pet act in world loadout (atlas, 13 turns, 0 act) and then +24% act rate im world (acted almost every turn).

Edit: its not just the amity. I got to 0% act rate here with celestial axe instead

This is extremely exploitable and should be a priority fix imo

[gritty hare]

Yeah, I kinda was expecting that but I do a lot of hunting and was hoping to make good use of oracle 😔 Found 2 ward regen and full hp dmg amities and thought I had a good thing going with this element agnostic build. Feels like fuckin everything is lightning immune and resistant.

[lost sable]

Well thats a 30% increase at full hp, not much lower than zerk (even better if theyre multiplicative). Also you get a sweet 15% ward/turn. You may gain a lot from trying out a mix of mortars and kerb eyes (maybe even with atlas since hes got ward regen and zerk)

[gritty hare]

Ok, way better. Threw in a chimera chest for good measure 😂 I wonder what caused the bug

[lost sable]

Bruvva💀 💀

[vale bridge]

Let me see….

No yeah they right wtf 😭

[gritty hare]

odie: selene hands overtuned let's add negative pet action
also odie:

[quick radish]

U need to fully abandon ward management and go full nuke to deal high dmg 😂

My ward completely drained after 3 ss3

[vale bridge]

Oh thats nice, you also 3 shot it 😭

[quick radish]

Yea but that was no anguish morri though

[floral berry]

you can get 97% with a full set of gear

40% on a celestial lute, 22% from a fey bow with blackened eye adorns, 7% from fey chimera head, 7% from fey chimera chest, 8% from wind tamer shoes, 5% from amity, and 8% from 2 freya charms

but the lute alone would be amazing if you have the resources

[blissful creek]

With full zerk, dc and gunnr I barely do 2m
Your 80al with what you have makes me really concerned with how my build would be at that al

That was with my 199 A labrys. My attack was about 4k with 8al

Also that’s anguish 2

[keen crypt]

I think I'm being punished for speaking up 😅 174 Arisen Balin kills, no ornate Arisen Avalon gear. Devs have tanked my luck for rebelling, hahaha 🤣

[blissful creek]

Took me 3 years to get a surtr chest piece
Just to get a fey Surtr chest piece a week or so later
Don’t give up!!

[lost sable]

103% jelly of that chestpiece 🥹

[floral berry]

if you got some hyperions im down to trade fey jorms for them

[lost sable]

Im talking about the beastfelled cuirass heheh

[floral berry]

ah, fair

[sudden sierra]

About 1,5 days and you can grind yours too!

[lost sable]

No I want it sent to my keep 😠

[elfin falcon]

why is slomo enabled in new gilga post nerf thread?

[blissful creek]

To silence the dissenters /s

[gusty widget]

when discussion threads get busy slow mode is a good tool to force everyone to think about their messages and it also limits spam

[full wagon]

It's set at a minute, so it's not that slow mode.

[full wagon]

And no, it was because people were taking personal shots at one another, you are still free to dissent or offer alternate opinions, just don't start slinging mud back and forth.

Though at this point, do we need this thread to remain open? I'll leave it up to you all as to if you think it is still serving a purpose.

[quick radish]

Well if this thread objectives already been achieved, little reason to keep it open 🤷🏽‍♂️

[full wagon]

Well that is what I am asking, do you all feel the objectives have been met?

[quick radish]

I fell so yes, no more suggestions coming in and it's not good if the discussion going on for too long anyway 🤝

[cold bear]

Yes and no, Depending on the coming changes I guess

[grizzled obsidian]

Well, the problems have been presented, we just have to see what the changes will be, if there are any.

[gritty hare]

Yeah, the biggest problems have been identified I think. I'd still like Ursa to lose the t6 passive and counterattack for something more robust but there's maybe more important things for Odie to focus on atm.

[lost sable]

I dont think this calls for a poll, but id like to emphasize once again the need for labrys rework and agatho hammer buff 🙏

Also as ryoiki pointed out, with ang2.0 i think the Studio will work on some other stuff before tackling our concerns (which makes sense, ang2.0 may be the biggest update yet)

[elfin falcon]

ax & hammer patch sounds awesome