Anguish Live Feedback

[tacit ridge]

Gilga

[timber furnace]

You already have almost the same % as anguish 50 before, it doesnt need an increase at that point

[turbid sedge]

In ang15+, there is only ss3 that is really viable

[grave fulcrum]

This will never happen tho there's like 30+ mats

[turbid sedge]

Gilga is the king of the SS3

[plush nimbus]

Proof of agony = mats from shop

[grave fulcrum]

Yah and deity is better for it still the only thing that might do better is pure CD damage while balls to the walling a swash bonus

[turbid sedge]

that the way

[grave fulcrum]

Still takes currently 4x as long to get cort in the shop with a proof you have

[plush nimbus]

What are you talking about ?

[grave fulcrum]

But again that's only doable with perfect gear anything less and your useless

[timber furnace]

Deity is the Best class for anguish raids

[turbid sedge]

Mmmh nop again

[grave fulcrum]

Cort can roll into the shop with torment agony dispair or melancholy

[plush nimbus]

I mean, as it is duable to farm thousands proof really fast, who cares about waiting for the mats you need to buy it, it's the same concept as all path

[plush nimbus]

And ? 😅

[grave fulcrum]

Mm but I can grind out 1000s of dungeons in the time it takes for it to show up

[tacit ridge]

You keep spewing the “thousands proof really fast” argument but you still haven’t presented any data to back that up

[plush nimbus]

Argument is saying "it's not an issue to - maybe - have something much rewarding than others because you ll have to wait to buy the mats you want, just... Like for any other path.

[grave fulcrum]

I'm only copying his words for agony proofs I'm also waiting for him to spend 1 hr grinding 1k proofs from t8 raids

[tacit ridge]

I meant him, not you

Until any data is presented, this is all just a bad faith argument from someone who enjoys dungeon spam over everything else and wants to see that content be optimal at all times

[languid adder]

So Towers, which are about the same effort at that progression points, are fine then?
I dont get it.
If they wanna use their proofs to ascend instead of playing the content that finally makes use of em, should i care?
I Just counter II their ascensions in PvP or bully them with viper and fomoria Gear.

[grave fulcrum]

Right and the only thing we've agreed on is that t8 jorm t8 rift scroll and event raids you can craft lesser tier versions of shouldnt give proofs but the rest should

[languid adder]

Good choices
Gilga for the undying warrior fantasy, heretic for the corrupt master of the elements

[plush nimbus]

To me, removing proof from trash raids, or limiting a lot would be at least a good statt

[grave fulcrum]

Simply limiting craftable scrolls for under tiered raids would solve the issue

I dropped 100 scrolls a few days ago

Istg I got like 20 total t10 raids

Everything else was under tier

Trev t9 balin t9 kerb t8 fey cock t8 fey yeti t9 horsemen t8 and 9

[languid adder]

As a fellow dungeon fiend, i wish melancholy was in a better state, but i would never try to make other content worse instead then bettering the one i care for :o

[grave fulcrum]

How many raids?

[plush nimbus]

Alright

[grave fulcrum]

And did you start before or after most recent patch for them

[plush nimbus]

Abyss just told me, for something realistic, it can go up to 70 agony proof/minutes average

[bronze plinth]

90 normal scrolls and around 80 dynasty

[grave fulcrum]

So 170 scrolls

Basically

[bronze plinth]

I have 12 dynasty scrolls

[turbid sedge]

I confirm, same return

[dim jacinth]

non event but gives a good estimate. 58,37% to spawn t10 raids

[grave fulcrum]

You can't use what abyss says as realistic.

He's always using perfect setups

[bronze plinth]

Before

[tacit ridge]

That’s absolutely false lol. You’re not averaging 18 proofs per raid

[plush nimbus]

And please, before telling me "but this dude has perfect gear an so on", find me players able to do 70 melancholy proof/minutes, with perfect gear. Now to compare : let's say you have someone finding build to spam dungeons one shot on max proof drop (100%), it's still 30 proof MAX/1.30 but spoiler alert : you won't find people doing it, ever, in current state

[grave fulcrum]

And he's got more focus than all of genz has

[bronze plinth]

I get like 5-12 proofs per raid

[turbid sedge]

And if I do an hour of non-stop raid, will you tell me it's because I play aethric or will you take the value into account?

[tacit ridge]

And you’re also not consistently clearing 4 raids per minute at that Ang level

[plush nimbus]

It's 17-20 on anguish 20, and Abyss said it's duable to push more on trash raids.

[tacit ridge]

The video of his you posted would literally take that just for buffing

[plush nimbus]

Reduce it as much as you want, you ll have to reduce those estimates number a lot to match other path.

[turbid sedge]

knowing that aethric/orna has a difference on the agony but the calculations will be more or less similar

[grave fulcrum]

Tell abyss to grind melechaly up to the same lvl tell him to run for 3 hrs on bgs (he'd need like 30 bg runs for solo but for party it's only a spot with 3-4 bgs) then come back

[plush nimbus]

Thank you.

[plush nimbus]

LOL

it's not like we don't have motivated dudes on dungeons farm in orna

[turbid sedge]

For the difficulty of course, not on the gain of proofs

[grave fulcrum]

Get someone with perfect gear to grind dungeons out to get a proofs per hr

[turbid sedge]

I should logically do my raids faster than you, so a higher value of proofs

[tacit ridge]

The issue always comes back to “I want my dungeons to be better than your raids”. Haven’t dungeons dominated the meta enough?

[grave fulcrum]

Then have him raid for an hr

[plush nimbus]

But well, I guess we ll have to wait until we have a full hour video of raid spamming on July

[plush nimbus]

When ? 😂

[grave fulcrum]

Anguish 1.0?

They were literally the main way to farm it

[plush nimbus]

That's your argument ? Just like in DM thread where you have been just absolutely disrespectful when I just keep my calm

[tacit ridge]

Idk, ever since horde was introduced? 😂

[plush nimbus]

Tower has always been way better in time/rewards

[languid adder]

But abyss is not a realistic player...

[raven bane]

Im okay with towers and raids being more lucrative than dungeons in the same way I'm okay with dungeons being more lucrative than fishing

[plush nimbus]

So compare to not realistic dungeon player

[raven bane]

They're more active more difficult content

[tacit ridge]

Yes, continuously ignoring arguments and just saying “you’ll see how I’m right” is super respectful

[grave fulcrum]

Yah abyss doesn't even know how to make low Al adjustments for newer players because his gear is too good

[languid adder]

Especially since she tends to try to stir up problems and gives wrong numbers all the time.

[languid adder]

You want us to find something impossible to disprove something impossible?

[grave fulcrum]

No he's super smart but he also farms that perfect setup. Before showing anyone

[plush nimbus]

You wanted numbers, I shared numbers. Now you re back to personal argument, wich is just as trash as you can be on thread where you disagree with someone. And that's not disrespectful to say that. That's just fact over the last thread we met and disagree. That being said, I think ORN are taking this discuss into account so we ll see.

[grave fulcrum]

Eg getting a high roll us hit to cap al0

[tacit ridge]

You shared numbers with no proof behind them. I can say I get 3000 proofs of melancholy/h as well. I’m sorry but second hand numbers with no screenshots/data collection methods are really not useful

[languid adder]

I know him, hes nice, i like him, but he is not a realistic example - and he tends to overexaggerate insanely.
Its not realistic.

[grave fulcrum]

That's the Al creep lol

[languid adder]

You shared estimates?

[grave fulcrum]

Because he's high Al he doesn't know how to accommodate for low Al advice

Just a simple run this until it works

[plush nimbus]

Fine
See you in July then

[tacit ridge]

You literally stated 70 proofs of agony/minute as a “data point”. Good luck keeping that “average” over one hour. That’s so far from realistic

[plush nimbus]

We ll see

[languid adder]

I will take you by your word. We will see who is right ^~^

[plush nimbus]

Sure 🙏🏻

[tacit ridge]

You won’t see. Anyone that understands math can see that that numbers is absolutely not possible. You might get that in a best case scenario over a minute or a couple minutes, but the real average is so much lower

[plush nimbus]

Have to leave, but abyss is joining via @turbid sedge soon

[grave fulcrum]

Check dms

[grave fulcrum]

What does this mean

[plush nimbus]

Just like your math understanding on DMs thread. All good my friend

[plush nimbus]

Abyss doesn't have access to this thread. But will send dm to Teralys so he can share things here

[grave fulcrum]

Sounds like discussing a banned player here ?

[languid adder]

Ban avoiding?

I mean technically thats pretty much that?

[plush nimbus]

Ping the mod, feel free

[turbid sedge]

He had a problem towards the gs class 😅

[languid adder]

Not seeing a need so far

[turbid sedge]

Nevertheless, these maths are indisputable

[languid adder]

So he is 80% of all orna players

[grave fulcrum]

Ik he got banned over some B's but abyss isn't in this discussion so let's not bring him into it and make it so that others speak for a banned player

[trim breach]

Is conversation really about Anguish right now, or are we deviating?

[turbid sedge]

Then I'll do the math in his name 🤷‍♂️

[trim breach]

Let's keep accusations etc out of here please, thank you

[languid adder]

Hey Dangy ^~^

[turbid sedge]

We want calculations, no? So let's be open-minded

[grave fulcrum]

I mean if he provides you with data for both melechaly and agony eg proofs per dungeons into proofs per hr sure I'll take the math

But currently his only data afaik is agony

[turbid sedge]

Unfortunately I'm aethric, my data is not interesting to you about melancholy

[plush nimbus]

I can tell you for now it's around 250 melanc / hour assuming enough dungeons. We re talking about thousands on raids

[grave fulcrum]

Nor raids you have easier scaling than orna does

[plush nimbus]

Abyss is orna

[turbid sedge]

Easier for raids, but the gain of proofs is similar

And when I say easy, I mean little %

[exotic jasper]

Hi, i have just read a tiny bit of current conversation and i am just wondering, what about needing to farm for summoning scrolls?

[turbid sedge]

HoA agony

[tacit ridge]

That’s what I’ve been asking for since the start. But calculations need to be based on data points we can confirm

[grave fulcrum]

Per hr saying you get 20 proofs per raid and kill exactly 30 seconds for every raid you kill that's 120 raids (realistically you're looking at about half that amount of raids due to clicking raids and holding start button) so 60x20 if you get that average

[grave fulcrum]

We've mentioned that but pre requisites don't count for his argument...

It's 1:30 seconds to gain an average of like 7 scrolls per up

[tacit ridge]

Isn’t it closer to 4 per up at max luck? Haven’t hard farmed up in a while but I was under the impression it was something like that

[grave fulcrum]

I was assuming you got the luckiest drops with like 1 per floor

1 gateway

Exp less are you even able to partake in anguish yet lmfao jkjk love your feedback

So lets say you have unlimited ups

You run a up spawn all 4-6 scrolls kill all of the raids

That's 30 seconds a raid so 2-3 mins for killing 1:30 for the up so 4:30 to kill 6 raids

A total of say 17-20 per raid

[languid adder]

He has an anguished gear so

[grave fulcrum]

So lets say you get 90 proofs in 4:30

Now let's say you run 3 bgs in the same amount of time

Let's say you get 1 proof per floor (likely more because more t10 enemies) that's t11 25 proofs per dungeon so 75 proofs per 4:30

Ang 20 gives what % proofs drop

I assume around 45%

[languid adder]

But you also not gonna clear that amount of anguish 20 content in 4:30

[grave fulcrum]

Well say it's abyss

Just 1shotting everything

Since that's what the 30 second raids are based on

[tacit ridge]

49.5%

[grave fulcrum]

Okay so lets say you see a total of 60 t10 enemies in 3 bg

Say you get 30 proofs each run

So now you're looking at 90 proofs per 4:30

So 90 proofs of agony or 90 proofs of melancholy

For a total of 4:30

Even if it's slightly longer

Say you spend 1:45 per bg

You get 3 dungeons in 5:15

Assuming you get an a.mori every 10th raid non event (not realistic I think) you've spend another 30-45 seconds killing moro

Just some quick estimates I'd love for someone to proof this for me

[tacit ridge]

A video showing 100 consecutive raid kills would be very useful to estimate an average proof rate at their level

[grave fulcrum]

Okay this just isn't realistic tho

He's got like 500k ward still

[tacit ridge]

The log makes that easy to do nowadays, just filter by raids

[grave fulcrum]

What adorn is has using

For both weapon and armor

I assume a mix of crimsons and jocs

[turbid sedge]

No need to be Abyss, many may have this build. and it's not the only viable one

[grave fulcrum]

455k ward kekw

[tacit ridge]

An under 6k attack build isn’t consistently clearing Ang20 raids in 15 seconds

[languid adder]

Bade of Finesse with the +0 atk from it

[turbid sedge]

I prefer to play swash

My Real Build for Agony 12

[tacit ridge]

This would still be the most important data point for this discussion

[tacit ridge]

Your stats page says 5% crit chance but your garb has ashens

[turbid sedge]

I can do it, but keep in mind that I'm HoA

[turbid sedge]

Malus

[tacit ridge]

Didn’t realize the malus factored into the stats page, but it makes sense they do

[turbid sedge]

I keep my garb's adorns for another build

[languid adder]

So basically this discussion is because some players are farming agony too quickly, and someone wants to Nerf it, so the people who are not trying to minmax the fun out of the game will have less enjoyment from it?

[turbid sedge]

With this build, only the great anguish can kill me

[languid adder]

Just wanna make sure im getting what im reading.

[turbid sedge]

to prevent people from ending up with 400 al in 1 year

Or more

need to find a balance in all of this

[tacit ridge]

This argument, once again, needs a credible data point on proofs/h

Otherwise we’re just saying things

[turbid sedge]

Of course, the goal is to be objective to all of this

[languid adder]

We had refineries running for 4 years untouched. No effort or power required, no caps or limiters, just raw an infinite material output.

This, this is much less powerful, it requires investment, and i dont respect factor in ppl with 30 alts, thats like saying cause one person could solo morri as gilga before it was cool did it gilga had to be nerfed to the ground.

[spiral goblet]

My understanding was that some players want all the paths to be relatively the same speed of progression, but that's just my take. Min/maxing the fun out of it was not something I interrupted

[grave fulcrum]

This is the closest I've gotten to the build youve said and it requires all 43 als I have

Let me do some testing for damage numbers

Do I bother with element?

[grave fulcrum]

This is definitely better than how I was raiding before

[turbid sedge]

I was lucky on the buffs t.

[grave fulcrum]

Why not use 1 turn for quad edge

That jump starts my apex bar to dc

[turbid sedge]

Never think about doing it to be honest

[tacit ridge]

26 seconds with lucky rng at agony 12 then. So average time around 30sec or higher?

[turbid sedge]

Thanks for the tips

[turbid sedge]

With unlucky rng*

[languid adder]

I get that. So what do ppl want, nerf agony or buff the other paths?

[tacit ridge]

I was basing it on this message 😅

[turbid sedge]

😅

[languid adder]

Need 2 for instant dc

[tacit ridge]

Neither. We still haven’t seen data that says agony is mathematically better.
I personally subscribe to the opinion that agony and torment should produce slightly more proofs, since they’re higher engagement activities, but the argument can be made that the 4 of them should be equally effective

[spiral goblet]

You've read what I've read lols

[languid adder]

Im fully with you

[grave fulcrum]

Ik but if I'm not dbing then there's no reason for me to be that low with zerk 1

[languid adder]

Tho i wish melancholy was slightly better / lower tier mobs had a reduced chance to drop proofs too.

What i really hated about ang 1 was the T10 limitation, it was by far the least thought-through and engaging one when it came to Dungeons...

[languid adder]

I use a 40% crit amity + 5% HP

[grave fulcrum]

Yk if I was critting that would probably be great

[tacit ridge]

Imo torment should also drop proofs at any tier, since all tower monsters have their level scaled to your tier anyway

[languid adder]

How do you play like this D:

[languid adder]

Its fixed fights, handcrafted - i would love just killing things, without having to evaluate if i have to for proofs or not.

So also fully with you.

Biggest missed oppurtunity in whole rework

[grave fulcrum]

Wym this is faster and more consistent than my Ultima build was

This was anguish 1 raid

My very first one on orna

[languid adder]

I mean with slow animations and without having ur element on the raid weapon

[grave fulcrum]

I think I do have it on there but I forgot and got use to using dragon and arcane

[languid adder]

Ah
My ADHD gave me hell watching it
But yeah its Safe, and slow for it, but its good

[languid adder]

Rend/daggers & RS2 joined the room

[grave fulcrum]

I don't think I could do that much damage with another skill without it being 2 turn

[languid adder]

I mostly use RS2 and when i get good tbuffs i just rend daggers

Also if you fight rift judge, or charon, try neutra manyalus, its fun x3

[grave fulcrum]

That would nuke my ward

[languid adder]

Its risky! But if nothing gets enough time to kill you you live eternally

[grave fulcrum]

True

That's what my rng gunnr us cast with mimic to give zerk and mimics and ending a fight with exactly 1 HP. Basically it was 1 shot or b 1 shot

[next flame]

This!! Don’t gulp the ocean or you’ll get a tummy ache
Take sips, enjoy the flavor and keep coming back!

With a crest going in about an hour I got enough proofs to get to ang 3 on agony

And that was sub par farming

[timber furnace]

Crest doesnt work for proofs

||I think||

[pearl mango]

Gilga just happens to interact the best with 2.0 in terms of raids

[pearl mango]

Doesnt abyss have 500k ward and 12k att

[languid adder]

I know, i know. Ppl will understand how busted colleteral is at some point

[vocal basalt]

You just mad cuz CD is peak 👀

[next flame]

I think it does honestly
There’s a few raids where once finished I only got 3-4
Then I popped my crest and I was seeing 10s at times

Well I think I just had a bias because it doesn’t look like it’s consistent enough for me to say it does
After looking it’s very sporadic

[languid adder]

Im not mad, im jealous. Its such a fun idea x3

Im mostly mad all gilgas see is SS

[vocal basalt]

Well dont i have the solution for your problems then 👀 👀 👀 👀

[vital swift]

HoC to GS?

[vocal basalt]

Its something like Core of Shift. Atrium of modification.

[vocal basalt]

Ok im gonna need a ban here where mods

[languid adder]

I would switch but i prefer not to deal with DoTs and also wearing everything

[vocal basalt]

Thats loser talk 🫵

[languid adder]

Look having 600 mana is all cool n stuff but i am NOT equipped to play gilga xD
I basically only farmed thief equip cause it has better stats & dex

[vocal basalt]

Look at that copium

👀

[languid adder]

What, your rend/daggers dont damage cap?

3 times

[naive lynx]

People can't use all the equipment? Speaking from Deity throne

[fierce cedar]

cry me a f'in river

you damn wannabe

[full peak]

AMorri as swash still doable.

Next time I need to pack something with more penetration. 🫣

[fierce cedar]

also you, "never been this disrespeced" for real? a games economy is out of whack and you choose to play your white privilege card?

i cant fathom

((this as a person who has listened to and enjoys your podcast btw, most or all episodes))

[grave fulcrum]

why are you here just to ping people and start problems. if any of this is seen as constructive (i dont see it that way and i reread it multiple times and went to get context) then sure it helps with anguish 2.0 but bringing race into it and calling pepole a wannabe and telling them to cry a f'in river is just simply disrespectful and uncalled for. i hope to see you change your attitude/tone in the future

[broken pike]

Someones been hitting the bottle too heavy tonight

[fierce cedar]

rude

[finite flint]

they do, stop only thinking about specific perfectly tuned duos. Try solo anguish 15 vs anguish 4 unshackled with 180-200 AL any class

[snow sage]

Is it accurate to interpret player sentiment as "I don't want to re grind content to achieve previous levels of reward" or "I want bigger rewards for being super ascended earlier in the anguish leveling process"?

I am neither super ascended, or far along in Anguish, but am finding the content and difficulty refreshing and rewarding; specifically the requirement for revisiting content I love (Dungeons) and content I dislike (Raiding), and for bringing new incentive to world farming and monuments.

It addresses Ascension in a way, at least I feel like it does, while promoting gear acquisition (OG Orna feels) and affix hunting (anguish crucible), which are both aspects I find endearing and worthwhile, and bring me back to days when hunting a specific piece of gear for specific reasons for specific content was the norm, and swapping classes and specs was mandatory to maximize your ability to complete content.

Old Anguish = Maximise AL and smash for best results.
New Anguish = Optimise Gear and ability for best results.

I do not personally find losing a small % of reward in order to maintain character strength, a unfair trade off either. Shackles are optional, even if they incentive using them with better reward %.

[languid adder]

I dont understand why someone speaks about their rightful pain when a game that he plays for years and loves thoroughly feels like the game does not value his investment.
Disrespecting that is one of, if not the worst thing i can think of that you can do that is not directly harming someone...

[languid adder]

Small? :o

I dont know about you but giving the enemy 70% stats for gaining .38% proofs is not small^^"

Unshackled is not real, it can and it WILL hurt you

[full peak]

Yes, small. It is speed "concern". Small is AL 28 vs 100 or what you have. Not rewards....as shackling yuorself really is just small decrease in speed. 🤷‍♂️

[languid adder]

Enemys still get 70% stats and i get a fourth of a level worth of increase :P

[languid adder]

Can you rephrase that please?

Just wanted to point out a small loss for maintaining character strength is not reality.

[full peak]

I don't mind to run with shackles is it barely decreasing my speed, at least in dungeons/raids as this is the things I'm focusing rn.

Ye, sorry, I read the last Dro message wrong.

[languid adder]

Small loss would let the cap be at something realistic, not -95%.
The enemys still get stronger, and you still feel it. You take longer, you're at higher risks.
Unshackled is not real with that cap, and that is why i am feeling so disrespected.
Slower Progression, if i want to keep my power? Fair, absolutely! But this? What?

[full peak]

I like how you found new world to use against Odie. 😄

[languid adder]

Its fine! And yeah i get you. I also would prefer to play shackled if unshackled was'nt... That evil ^^"

[languid adder]

May i ask what you mean?

If you mean the disrespected part, i play orna for a while and it followed a certain philosophy. This content, that replaces old content, follows a completely different one and is the first PvE content in the game that either strips you power for no return or reduces your gains so drastically that the option is not feasable.
The reddit post talked about an appropriate reduction, that i was extremely happy about and excited for! This appropriate reduction is overshot harshly.

That's why, when someone says small reduction, i like to point that out - because it is a good idea, but far too aggressive.

I asked for a small compensation, may it even be cosmetic, for shackling - a proof of shackling etc.
Was not recieved well.
So if shackled does not respect my AL and its not in the interest that it does, then i would at least try to get unshackled in a reasonable state so i am progressing at maybe a slightly worse rate, but not at a severely worse rate.

The shackle system creates a problem for veterans that will never occur again after we progressed through the content far enough to reach our appropriate AL levels - i just want the journey there to not feel like im playing content that is actively shunning me for my progression.

[languid adder]

And no, Odie's fine, i get him. We talked a but about this in here, he doesnt see how shackles work as a punishment for high AL players and i get where he comes from. I am playing his game for hours every day, i would not do that if i didnt adore him.
Sorry if it comes off different, i am not great at communication when it comes to english x3

[sturdy stump]

I personally dont really mind the shackles. But what is kinda annoying to me is how long it takes to reach the anguish level where my shackle level is roughly at my AL, the proof level up costs are kinda high. I get that it's meant to be long term content though so not sure what I would do about it

[languid adder]

Exactly; if i forfeit my power for a couple of hours, fine, but not for hundreds of hundreds.

Would you find a reduction in level up costs calculated by the amount of AL you have above the shackle limit reasonable, Pie?

Because it will only ever noticably affect the veterans that face this struggle, and then will never again come into effect with newer players.

[finite flint]

if you have 3 perma BGs with alts (like in HoA) yes

[sturdy stump]

in principle yes. Or maybe an overall levelup cost reduction.

I kinda never liked the idea of using the same proofs you use for purchasing stuff in the guild shop for levelups, because it means you pretty much cant use a large portion of the proofs you earn while levelling up. Thats not how it's done in any of the other guilds either. For ang 1.0 it did work that way, but the levelup costs werent nearly as demanding

[finite flint]

i presented data , it's 7 proofs per raid at anguish 4

[languid adder]

Yeah fully agree. Its expensive, and i enjoy the concept of long form content, but the goal is not the journey for high ALs, the goal is reaching the place where you belong, so the journey starts - like it would start for a new player at anguish 1 that just hit T8 or a T10 that freshly started ascending.

I dont gain any fun from progressing through stages of content i dont feel like i belong myself...

[finite flint]

i don't think it's doable ang4 but 40-45 is, with moondrops or cerus event scrolls and the like. Depends a lot if 0 lag (which is kinda rare in HoA) and if we are talking full focus (a lot of us grind "relaxed" with distractions, tv, waiting for a bus, waiting for pasta water to boil and so on)

[finite flint]

it's less than 3 lol, but x4 with alts . Something like 2.7-2.8 for 25f, 2.4-2.5 if alts aren't t11

[finite flint]

you actually need his amities which are the broken part iirc

[finite flint]

i can't upload videos but i can tell you i have been doing 11-12 min of 30 raid bunches getting 200-220 proofs each time, picking over a random sample of scrolls summoned, anguish 4, keeping the low hp alive to share with alts as well (so everything under 7M hp counting the scaling of anguish i didn't kill). that includes some seconds to identify the eye color of kerb or balin v finesse which look similar. 7M is my breakpoint of 2 unbuffed BP3

[wanton raft]

What I was trying to express here is that I understand games have to evolve. Nerfs have to happen. Expansions come and you grind new gear etc. I have invested lots of time into Everquest, World of Warcraft, Pokemon Go etc. Every game will make changes for whatever reason. What I am saying is that of the games I have played, this specific updates feel disrespectful to effort I put into the game so far. It feels worse for me personally than any other game's update.

I wanted to make sure its clear that it feels significantly worse than decreasing Spiked Shield's effectiveness or adding penalties to Selene Hands. These sort of changes are needed and even if they dont feel good because I used them, i understand it and accept it. Shackles cross a line thats different than those sort of changes. I fully understand that context can be lost in discord and each word carries different meaning to different people. I just needed to express that this updates hits in a more negative way than any game update I have personally experienced. I hope that clears up any confusion.

[pulsar scroll]

Well said - that all seems really clear to me 🙂

[naive lynx]

There's a quite a few people that feel the same. Not as far as disrespected but desire that there should be some changes for people that have that much time in already. I don't mind shackles tbh playing for a bit as it's not really hindering my gameplay. What IS though is the fact that it takes soooooo long to get one anguish level to the point of me using any of my hard earned work previously will not be for an extremely long time. Other than that everything else seems good so far, won't be able to test more deep anguish now because it's going to take eons to get to where I could use my full power with anguish gear

[finite flint]

it's funny because no one mentions that the main problem is that when you reach the anguish "for your AL", at high AL, it's too hard

but i mean i guess it's because almost no one is there yet

[paper void]

I think it would be really productive for this thread if we started solely focusing on what options we have to help highly ascended players reach their relevant Anguish Level - with some cost for the time saving.

At this point, we’re kind of all saying the same thing on repeat from what I can gather

However, if the community has consensus that there should not be a fast track available for anyone - then we can keep the status quo

[languid adder]

You are truly the voice of reason.

It is not really a Nerf, nor is it an adjustment. It is a system put in place to make us not be able to cheese the new difficult content with our power, and bruteforces it without reason. And that is what hurts so much about it.

Spiked Shield was nerf, we all got hit equally with an adjustment that affected that skill for all of us, without fail. So was the nerf to hands, everybody's hands got nerfed.

Shackles are specifically targeted at veterans, high players, who possess more power then is wanted to start our progression in the rework. Because well, we shouldnt cheese it. I fully get it, im happy the thought is there. But it overkilled what it tried to archieve and forces us to give up what we worked for without beeing fair to us for it.

[tacit ridge]

Won’t disabling shackles just trivialize content again? Everyone will just unlock whatever level they’re comfortable with and go back to spamming that non stop, just like in 1.0

[pulsar scroll]

So when I first heard of shackles, I actually imagined they would start reducing your ALs from the top when applied, rather than allowing you to access your ALs from ghe bottom. So for example, if you jave 100 ALs, the first shackle would reduce it to 95, then 90 etc.

Just curious if that was considered? Im guessing there's some design flaw in ot that I havemt thought of.

[languid adder]

Thank you so much for saying this.

my ideas:

• Decreasing the cost for level up in relation to your highest ascended class (right now afaik from testing shackles are working from ALL al's done across the board and while it makes sense in some places, this would just ask for cheese for this specific instance)
• reducing the maximum penalty of playing unshackled, 95% is simply too harsh, especially since it factors in all AL's dont across the cast

[tacit ridge]

I do agree that it probably should only pull the penalty calculations from your most ascended class’ ALs

[pulsar scroll]

I agree with the overall sentiment. I like shackles generally as a tool to ensure Anguish really gets tough at some point. My take is that we still need to find the right balance.

[languid adder]

If there should not be a fast track, i am sure most people would settle for a compensation type of deal, where we get goodies for the AL's we are currently not allowed to use.

[spiral goblet]

To what extent?

[mystic rose]

Personally, I dislike the idea of fast tracking

[paper void]

It does (it uses your current class)

[languid adder]

Cosmetics, guild items, stuff not related to mats

[languid adder]

Does it scale off required level or maximum level permitted by shackles?

[paper void]

The level is shown in the guild hall - requirements are separate from shackles

[spiral goblet]

I understand the type of items, just how much

Like one time pay out?

Or periodically till you reach enough proofs to reach your al lvl?

[languid adder]

So it scales off the maximum permitted level, got it. Thank you!

Also confirmed that penaltys only scale from your current AL's

[tacit ridge]

I see. The way it’s presented (since what’s most visible is the requirement) made me think otherwise, thanks for clearing that up

[finite flint]

basic option would be to use something similar to the shackles debuff to reward, to debuff leveling costs for anguish: the more above the AL threshold you are the less anguish levels cost

that can keep a minimum of say 400 or 500 for every level existing to avoid it being too trivial, and the debuff being applied only above that

[languid adder]

Also making it scale from your currently equipped class, so again it doesnt scale off requirements but current AL like shackle penaltys.

So if i for some reason want to progress at old rates i just go on my unascended T9 to level up.
Also, i cant cross ascend and cheese the system

[finite flint]

so examples to check what i am suggesting, ang 4 to ang 5 stays the same more or less at say 450; ang 5 to ang 6 would be (say) 600, instead it's 450 + 150 * shackles debuff; if your rewards at anguish 5 re -95%, the 150 almost disappears and you pay 450 and change. At some point though, say (random example) anguish 12 to ang 13, say the full price would be 1500, then 450 + 1050, with 1050 "only" reduced by maybe 50% because that's your shackle debuff. you get closer to actual full prices the more you get nearby your "true" anguish level

[paper void]

The “Ascension Shackle Recommended” section of the guild should show the level

[languid adder]

So basically, you would want a price reduction of X based on how much AL,'s you are over shackle limit, with a differenct cap.

So basically add level up price decrease to shackle calculation?

[paper void]

I think that is a great approach personally.

Scale up to 50% reduction (50% would be adjacent to the 95% shackle penalty)

So, you’d be giving up around 100 ALs to double the speed of levelling

[languid adder]

And with that, i would not be sad if unshackled wouldnt be an option anymore, or if the unshackled rewards were so penalizing

Because AL would be completely respected

[naive lynx]

I dig that idea

[finite flint]

unshackled up to anguish 4 like now should stay as it is

[pulsar scroll]

I like the idea, but Im trying to see how well it addresses the concerns of high AL players?

[finite flint]

the 4 paths look reasonable, with the exception of MABYE reducing t8-t9 raid proof generation and/or giving some chance of proof from t8/9 minions in tower / monument / dungeon

[naive lynx]

It lets us get to our ALs content quicker without going overboard

[languid adder]

That concern mostly stems from ALs beeing a factor in PvP

[full peak]

This is idea I can live up with. I wanted to oppose that if the prices will be too low, the speed will be way to great and the content way to trivilizied. As currently - the shackles and the progress through it - is something I can chase off rather than previous "only AL" grind and I DON'T WANT it fast. I want it to be long so I don't burn up with nothing to do .... 🤷‍♂️

[languid adder]

Any mob from T8-10 should drop proofs in all content, but the chance should be adjusted accordingly (example 66/33% droprate)

[pulsar scroll]

So just really simply, is the idea that players get reward bonus based on how many ALs they give up to a Shackle?

[naive lynx]

This other way will still be slower but not at the speed it is now and will eventually become super slow again as you reach your ALs

[finite flint]

no reward bonus, only lower prices to level up anguish

[languid adder]

A reward bonus would be a recipe for disaster, wo dont want more proofs we could spend on mats and not level anguish, we wanna level anguish and not be stuck in purgatory until we are allowed to use our full potential in 2027

[tacit ridge]

I could agree with reducing rates from t8 and t9 raids if this was implemented

I wouldn’t like it, since most t9 event raids are stronger than many t10s, but I think it’d be a good middle ground that made all paths more interesting as well

[languid adder]

Beeing so selective of what you kill is just not as fun as it could - main annoyance with anguish one was that i only saw proofs seeing the last 30% of the dungeon.

If i want proofs, i have to spend a lot more time in towers thinking what fights i pick, i just wanna go ham, and in higher melancholy the path to the T10 will be enough pain.
And Affinity candles also spawn T9.

It would just be an overall more fun progression, cause all effort would be rewarded much more fairly

[grave fulcrum]

My only concern for dungeons and towers

They have horde fights meaning if you have a 50% proof rate 2/3s of that is a chance for 99% of the enemies in towers to drop a proof

[languid adder]

Imagine you could go in a normal dungeon if your tier and get proofs from the getgo as T10 and it basically increases over 3 Intervalls
Much more fun, even if the total outcome is basically the same

[languid adder]

Thats why we asked for a reduced rate, and a general adjustment of the droprates, so it nets about the same, but is more spread out, not only T10

[grave fulcrum]

So if we change it to all enemies in t8-10 give proofs we'd have to make it so that it's only 1 per floor until t10

[languid adder]

I dont see that, at all?

Just adjust droprate per tier.

[grave fulcrum]

If I can farm t8 dungeons faster than t10 dungeons for similar proofs as my t10 dungeon why should I run t10 dungeon

[umbral blaze]

They just said t8 and t9 will give proofs at a much reduced rate

[grave fulcrum]

66% of the t10 rate for t9

And 33% for t8

[languid adder]

Its just an arbitrary number for the concept.

[umbral blaze]

Also, it just turns back to getting proofs from only 1/3rd of the dungeon and at a lower rate

[grave fulcrum]

So Ang 25 t8 is safer faster and has the ability to drop proofs

[tacit ridge]

What’s the proof rate at Ang 25? It being down to 1/3 would limit you from wanting to do that

[grave fulcrum]

Run it as boss horde you have how many t8 event bosses in the game

[tacit ridge]

You also get less floors per dungeon

[grave fulcrum]

There's more t8 bosses in the game than t10 bosses in events

[languid adder]

So we can play with events on and still get rewarded for it? Sounds nice to me

[umbral blaze]

People after efficiency would just do lower ang t10 horde rather than t8 horde if that's implemented

[tacit ridge]

That wouldn’t make a difference, since in a t10 dungeon every monster/boss would be able to drop proofs anyway

[grave fulcrum]

I'm t8 dungeon with event like rift fall there's enough t8 bosses that you'd get ~1 per floor with a 15% chance to drop

And the difference being

You don't have immo lords

You don't have realmshifters or beo

[languid adder]

So you would farm at 40% efficiency instead of 33%, still vastly lower. I dont see where you are coming from.

[grave fulcrum]

So it's 10x faster

[tacit ridge]

T8 boss would have double the cooldown, less floors per dungeon and have bosses under t8.
Meanwhile t10 would have 25 floors, every monster eligible to drop proofs, and triple the drop rate

[vocal basalt]

./suggest make fallen RS a t8 boss (no stat change)

[grave fulcrum]

There's more t8 enemies in the game in events too

[tacit ridge]

Even slightly lowering your melancholy to run t10 would be more worthwhile

[languid adder]

So oneshotting less floors with only a third of the dungeon having the potential to even give a third of the rewards of a T10 one, is 10x more efficient then oneshotting a dungeon that is done in about 20% more time, where every mob can drop proofs at an average of the double rate?

...what?

[tacit ridge]

Yes, but you’re never getting 100% of the dungeon to be eligible. And the eligible ones would be so at a lower rate. Of course the numbers might need fine tuning but I don’t think it’d be an issue

[grave fulcrum]

I mean rift fall is prime example

You get a ton of t8 enemies boss and non boss

It's enough to make t8 horde drop 1 proof per floor

[languid adder]

Still way, way slower.

[languid adder]

At 33% rate? I doubt that.

[tacit ridge]

What’s the proof rate at ang20 for example?

Trying to run some calcs on this

[grave fulcrum]

49.5

So about a 15% chance

Which would be equal to ang 15 where you got about 1 proof per t10 floor in t11 boss

[languid adder]

So either 25 floors where all enemys has about a 34% chance to drop a proof, or 20 floors where about a third of the enemys, or in riftfall, half of the enemys habe a chance of about 17% to drop a proof.

Oneshot versus oneshot.

I do not see the issue.

[tacit ridge]

So 20 floors x 3.5 boss on average is 70 boss per t8 horde. At a 16,5% rate you’d get 11.5 proofs per dungeon

[grave fulcrum]

Id like to see you 1 shot 400k hp normal bosses

[tacit ridge]

25 floors x 3.5 at t10 is 87 encounters

[umbral blaze]

He's a deity, he can

[tacit ridge]

At a 49.5% we get 43 proofs

[grave fulcrum]

The equivalent of 0 weakness ymir for 10 floors

[tacit ridge]

So even at a 21% rate you’d get 18 proofs per dungeon

21% is melancholy 6

I’d rather run t10 horde at melancholy 6 instead of t8 horde at melancholy 20

[languid adder]

?

[tacit ridge]

Someone please proof check my math

[languid adder]

Your math is correct

[grave fulcrum]

Add 1000% stats

10x stats to those enemies

[languid adder]

Plus anguish item bonus and an offensive loadout with trevs.

[grave fulcrum]

Also reduce your AOE damage

Reduce your crit damage

[languid adder]

If i pick the aoe reduction and not elemental damage maluses.

And the crit maluses.

[finite flint]

dungeons would be the same. Anyway just a suggestion, tbh proofs in tower seem more than fine given how good towers are inherently. Proofs in dungeons are much more meh, but surely it's nice to get some when doing non-boss for event (like these days for monoceros)

[languid adder]

Also qatvanga exists

[grave fulcrum]

You can't really avoid them at Ang 25

[umbral blaze]

Qatvanga gets shafted pretty hard imo

[vocal basalt]

This man complaining the other day because gilga has CD what is this nonsense

[tacit ridge]

Check my math up there please. It seems that Mel6 t10 would produce more proofs than mel20 t8, but I’d like your input on it. Maybe I’m missing something you’re seeing

[languid adder]

Okay, but at anguish 25 i would go for AoE regardless, i will most likely go for chained shield, or even stronger builds.

[umbral blaze]

||It's just a personality trait of deities ||

[languid adder]

Im not complaining for real about gilga come on xD
Im happy he has CD

[grave fulcrum]

Speed per dungeon and people cheat in the game

[languid adder]

Its fun, every class deserves fun? X3

[finite flint]

a lot more because t8 and t9 would give proofs as well in the t10 dungeons

[tacit ridge]

Would you say a mel20 t8 would be faster than a mel6 t10? I think mel20 t8 would be challenging as well, but can’t really comment on it till I get there

[tacit ridge]

I counted all monsters as eligible

Though I did not apply the lower rate to them

So I need to run it again actually

[languid adder]

Sounds to me like you ran out of arguments?

[tacit ridge]

Let’s not get personal, that doesn’t help the discussion

[sturdy stump]

Fair and balanced class

[languid adder]

Olay then ill reply to the "people cheat" instead

[tacit ridge]

What floor does t9 start in t10 dungeons? Floor 9?

[grave fulcrum]

Considering the HP of a t8 boss at 20 would be roughly what a t10 boss would be at 6 yah you literally 1 shot all the way through anyways and not have to deal with any enemy that has potential to 1 shot you

[finite flint]

f7 i think? to f15

[grave fulcrum]

As well as 5 less floors than t11

[languid adder]

Its a static image game, Mjölnir proven its easy.
Should the game suck for everyone who doesnt cheat?
Thats like making shackles terrible for everybody because some abused refineries.

Its a bad argument.

[tacit ridge]

But less 5 floors is also less monsters eligible for proofs

[finite flint]

gotta do with proof per time spent

[grave fulcrum]

Not in rift fall

Not in even event with t8 normal enemies

[tacit ridge]

Guess it would depend on how many dungeons you have available as well. I could see t8 being interesting if you have a ton available and just want to run them as fast as possible

[finite flint]

but anyway i think ang6t11 >> ang20t8 easily IF drop rate is 100 t10- 66 t9 - 33 t8

t8 would be interesting if you run a build that cannot deal quickly and easily with medea and a mammon

but then you give up on getting those drops at 200/200 as well

but in general the idea is that if we have more options and variety that's just better

it's already SO nice to be able to do non boss

or to have BGs be relevant for something else than godforging

[full peak]

You dont need your ALs to do it. 🤪 If DC up....but i'm nit using phoenix much.

[finite flint]

i mean i was doing non boss anyway as i am a quester but i realize most people weren't outside events, and even in events they hated the idea of getting no proofs to get the, say, moondrops

[languid adder]

And thats missing zerk 2 & 3... mother of god the potential is infinite

[umbral blaze]

I love non boss for the scrolls you can get from the occasional balor portals on top of event mobs, being able to run that and get anguish proofs is really good

[languid adder]

And to bully nidhoggs back

[finite flint]

also different "free mats"

eyestone, fogstones

that you don't get in t10 boss

[umbral blaze]

How do you guys feel about new proof of despair drop rate btw?

[finite flint]

i don't know , what i know is that something weird is going on in HoA

almost no one farms despair except one who is at... 22

[umbral blaze]

Damn

[finite flint]

and he is top 1 global leaderboard so

but maybe this is not the right place to discuss that

anyway afaik other than him, almost no one heavily farms despair

[languid adder]

So Putting all in perspective.

Having the option that ALL T10 mobs drop proofs is amazing.
I just wish that it was balanced through 8-10, so all fights i regulately experience as a T10/11 player have a relation to anguish in regards to rewards.
Not asking for more total drops - just a distribution, to make towers less of a hustle, affinity candles less of a Pain (changing them to T10 only would be bad in every other aspect then anguish) and generally, a much more lovely experience in dungeons.

[umbral blaze]

I think the rate is much better now (I think I made approx 60 proofs in an hour farming pegasus at ang 1?)

[languid adder]

Why do i think of Ben Drowned now?

[umbral blaze]

But I feel like it will be the path requiring the most ang level and loadout optimisation for profit since it will require buffing at a certain point

[full peak]

Smh AL28 Deity regular run

[umbral blaze]

800k medea is crazy

That means ymir will be over 1m at that ang level

[languid adder]

Also, youre style is impeccable. Holy

[full peak]

I have always chakram ready to oblirate any any high HP bosses. Like zerks in VotG.

[full peak]

You didnt run ang ymir even before. Everyone run that on ang 0 to get just jocs.

[umbral blaze]

True

Maybe people will run at ang 1 for gear bonuses such as 15% 2h and stuff though

[languid adder]

If the level up cost reduction comes through i wouldnt mind shackles starting from 1

[umbral blaze]

Nah let it be as it is, I want my anguish bonuses in endless

[exotic jasper]

To solve the (issue?) of reaching very slowly the point where difficulty matches your power (leveling anguish guild) I would like to propose an extra proof(s) reward for successfully finishing anguished content (and maybe add a streak to it).

So every time you complete an anguished dungeon, tower or monument - you receive some bonus proof(s).

And with streak it will account the current streak of completing the activity. If you die in an activity - you lose the streak. Streak would increase amount of proofs you gain when you complete the activity.

Why add this?

Players who are too strong for the level of anguish will have no issues completing the activity without dying, and will do so consistently. So, these players will gain more proofs to level up anguish faster.

Possible drawbacks

Difficulty to apply this to Path of Despair and Agony. Maybe every 10 killed mobs without dying = extra reward for despair and full raid clear in one go = more rewards in agony?

I did not think entirely through how it could work with shackled / unshackled content, it is just an idea.

[languid adder]

this would have the effect to make towers and dungeons more profitable while not adressing the issue.

But, it could also open up the idea of sacrificing speed for safety and beeing slower, for getting more in the end for beeing in the streak.
But also, making a tanky build and taking your time is not difficult

Fun idea, but how does this address the issue?

[grave fulcrum]

to me this says shackled gains to help players feel like theyre not getting thrown to the wolves by the devs

[grave fulcrum]

this would mostly make anyone with more than 10 als capable of streaking after a bit youd lose streak due to not enough als/not enough gear

[exotic jasper]

Tanky build with no damage/pen wont be able to go far in anguish too. If anguish is meant to be a difficulty guild, then IMHO surviving and completing activities despite an increase in difficulty should be rewarded.

And yes, reduced speed wont lead to increased proofs. It will just reward players who are completing anguish content with ease

[next flame]

I think that’s a little far. Respect is an issue with ego. If you feel that hurt and bothered about a game you’ve truly lost touch with reality

[exotic jasper]

I think every gamer can relate what Rhayvhenn said. Imagine spending 1000h on something like minecraft world over the years and then at some point this world is no longer openable because there is a new version.

Its obviously not the same thing, but would be similarly painful too.

[vocal basalt]

Diablo 2 ladder resets 😩 😩

[languid adder]

reduced speed with this added would make proofs more safe tho - i see the appeal, i like it, i still dont see how this fixes the issue. I just think its a neat addition in general

[languid adder]

Im not sorry for beeing passionate, neither should anybody else.

[languid adder]

Thank you, that hit the nail on the head. :)

[grave fulcrum]

lets not bring up drama from more than 12 hrs ago

[cyan mason]

I'm Mel 12. I take 2 turns to buff and one shot everything besides berzerk bosses. And my zerk mammon has 1.2m hp. If I can do mel12 t10 dungeons, I should be able to do Mel12 t8 dungeons faster.

[oak axle]

So I am only guessing that our roll chance for the highest valued drop is at least 1 and 10,000. Unless the +.01% drop quality is either null or equal to one. Who really knows without seeing the code?

[languid adder]

sacricing 2 out of 25 turns in bestcondition for a ninth of the profit doesnt sound worth it. Am i missing something?

[cyan mason]

I totally agree with you. @grave fulcrum way of proposing idea is badly worded. And conversation got sidetracked. The point is to add more Mel proof in t10 dungeons by adding t9&t8 monsters to drop some at a lower rate. Idk how it would balance in other content, but it does sound like a good idea to catch up your AL in shackles.

[languid adder]

i would say that reducing the T10 drop chance appropriately would be reasonable, because its not about an increase.

Basically:

• T10/11 Dungeons will have a much smoother experience if you will get proofs the entire way and not just in the last third. On high anguish, when oneshotting is no longer an option, it will make it feel more smooth at minimum.
• In Towers, fights are handpicked, and almost all mobs range in T8-10. You wouldnt have to handpick your fights as much, you can go more ham on them, and since almost any fight would have a chance to drop proofs, it would be less awkward / feel more well-rounded.
• Monuments, same effect as Towers, but MOnuments arent ment to farm anguish IMO
• Affinity Candle lets only T9/10 through. Changing the Candle to T10 only would be a huge nerf to it in anything that is not anguish, this would solve it.
• No effect on Agony - but i would argue the reason agony is so fun is BECAUSE there are no duds.

[finite flint]

Which is why I don't play Diablo and I check very carefully about any new game, any such reset or intention thereof is a complete no for me to even give the game a chance.

[cyan mason]

Thank you for getting this suggestion on track. Under this perspective, it looks balanced.

[languid adder]

Overall, it has the same emotion as the monumental guild.

When only event mobs gave EXP, it felt clunky, like you have to be very selective what you do and you often times avoided or did not fully enjoy content.
Now, everything gives EXP, and event mobs give 2.
I wouldnt mind if the guild level EXP requirements got adjusted, i dont know if it did but i will pretend it did for this example;

Now, anything i touch has potential rewards for why i go there in the first place. No duds, no nothing. If i want to turn off my brain and commit warcrimes in there, i can do so focussing on the combat, and not on avoiding parts of it that give me no reason to engage with it / doesnt have the potential to give me the satisfaction that i play video games for.

[plush nimbus]

130+ PoA/10 minutes on...anguish 4, with some nice random (and not random mats).
For reference, to have same proof results running ang 4 dungeons, it means 156 dungeons/hour

It's just an exemple, yes you can run higher ang dungeons, but you can also run higher ang raids.
If we just translate those 130/10 min = 780 proof into dungeons on ang to get 50% proof rate, it's still 52 dungeons.

And yes, there are other things to factor. But for now, I still clearly think it's a big balance issue available

[plush nimbus]

Suggestions, based on what I red earlier too :

• tower : lower tier mobs get a chance (reduced compared to T10) to drop proof
• dungeons : same, but only when running T10/11 dungeons. I also still think it would be nice to have 3-5 opponents/floor rather than 2-5.
• raid : same, reducing drop rate of lower tier seems fine to me, and I tend to think it would be nice to see a cap for lower tier raids (maybe lower tier = drop at ang4 max, with rewards caped to 4-5?). It keep them rewarding, but avoid some issues. To help for it, and to take into account some messages shared here, it may be nice to have an option to select tier we would like to summon (while keeping same event raid chance = when selecting T10 only during Morrigan event, you won't have more T10 Morrigan compare to not selecting this option. Not sure It's easy to add tho !)
• world farming : I didn't try it yet so idk, it seems it is taken into account with various changes on the last days, but maybe the same suggestion of reduced proof would be fine too ?

[finite flint]

i think other ppl opinion is that given you have to farm for the scrolls as well, it's ok if killing the raid themselves is better

[plush nimbus]

I don't disagree with it, I just think it's maybe not ideal for the game if it's that much better. Suggestions keep raids as greatly rewarding, but partly reduced the difference imho

[finite flint]

i think many ppl believe it's about hoarders having huge stocks

and then it will settle

[plush nimbus]

A bit sad for the game IMHO, as it tend to break game economy (mats, and everything available from shop), and tend to favor gameplay based on this new meta.

[umbral blaze]

Btw @plush nimbus what was the proof rate you were getting for dungeons at ang 4? (Assuming as many dungeons as possible in an hour)

[plush nimbus]

Proof calculations is way easier for dungeons. Ang 4 is around 17% drop rate. Assuming you'll see 30 T10 things/dungeon, it's 0.17*30 = around 5. I may overestimate the 30/dungeons as it felt less than 5/dungeons. Now assuming you have infinite dungeons available (🤷🏻‍♂️), it's something around 150 theoritically. Reality ? Tend to be less than that at ang4

[umbral blaze]

Okay, world farm is similar rate then

[plush nimbus]

Good to know

[umbral blaze]

A bit more maybe

I made 520 proofs in 2h 40-50 mins with despair level 3 today

(was farming only Pegasus using mob reset)

[plush nimbus]

A bit more/less for dungeons too, as it also depends on situation : having to use WV, to switch VD or not and so on. But it's probably fair to say it's around 150 with nice network

[umbral blaze]

So full t10

[plush nimbus]

Thanks for the info

[umbral blaze]

Without guaranteed t10, will probably fall down closer to 140 I think?

[plush nimbus]

Again, not trying to kill one content contrary to what I red here sometimes on the last week, just hoping for something a bit more enjoyable for everyone

[plush nimbus]

For despair ? i really can't say, I ve never tried it

[umbral blaze]

I'm just commenting based on my rate today 😆

[plush nimbus]

That's helpfull for this thread 💯🙏🏻

[umbral blaze]

Had 160-180 proofs per hour with guaranteed t10 spawns using reset on riftbreaks. Normal farm will probably be closer to 140 then since you can't avoid t9s

[plush nimbus]

It seems they tried to match a bit this content with others

Good to know 🎉

[harsh geyser]

Regarding the scroll requirement for Agony:

I'm just under breakeven on scrolls for agony while in the process of leveling melancholy with normal horde and torment with towers.

So without even going out of my way for UwUs, the scroll 'cost' of agony is a nonissue when comparing path v. path income rates. Not even mentioning stockpiles or events.

[naive lynx]

Just want Odie to send that anguish leveling idea AncientL had. It's...tasty...

[plush nimbus]

That's - but I guess it's not a surprise - my feeling to, according to the rewards/time. You won't find many people buying demon tool and so on with other currencies than agony as it just feel way easier to get.

I still feel bad for buying like 10 demontool early with melanc

[harsh geyser]

I don't know how much of an argument there is left for "agony isn't more proofs than the others per-time-spent".

I think the larger argument is pinning down exactly how much faster (2x? 3x? 5x?), how much of a problem it is for one path to be faster than the others, and if it's a problem, how much agony should lose or despair/melancholy/torment should gain.

(And then the whole "events w.r.t. anguish" topic, which is what started the conversation)

[plush nimbus]

Can't agree more with it

[raven bane]

The fact that melancholy has the ability to generate scrolls speaks more to the benefit of running that content than it does the cost of running agony

[plush nimbus]

I think Fux and I are ok with seing agony a bit more rewarding than dungeons as you indeed have to factor the time spent to farm the scrolls. But it's not that healthy for the game, IMHO, to see this path so much more rewarding as others, as it tend to generate balance issues, and meta that may not be that good overall

[harsh geyser]

On the flipside, people happily run raids with no extra rewards, just for the gear. That can't be discounted; the non-anguish resources that each activity produce needs to be accounted for somewhere.

[plush nimbus]

For now, on my own conclusion based on rewards I can see from both paths, it would be just better for progression to stop trying to go into anguish intend in dungeons (increasing difficulty for more rewards) as it.... slow down scroll farming, so it's just weaker. Wich is a bit sad, and again, not that healthy for the game. Idea is not to kill one content, but to let other contents alive.

[raven bane]

I just don't think we know what a post-stockpile landscape really looks like. I've been hard farming scrolls now and have not been keeping up with consumption and that includes many saved up event scrolls.

The bottleneck is not how many you can do in an hour like the table math in this thread is suggesting its how many scrolls you can farm. I don't think the average player is pushing more than a couple hundred scrolls a month.

Its one thing to say you can generate 1000 proofs an hour and another to say you can generate 8000 proofs per month.

[sinful vapor]

Maybe taper off the rng a bit on agony. Instead of proof ranges like 3-11 proofs, more like 4-8

Lower the average, tighten the bounds

[plush nimbus]

It indeed has to be taken into account, I absolutely agree. But I think it's duable to find an in between. Ok scrolls have to be farmed, but as Fux said, for now, even factoring this let agony path has much more rewarding. So may be nice to find a solution about it, and maybe work on suggestions shared by several players, I guess 🙏🏻👍🏻

[harsh geyser]

I don't think the average player is pushing more than a couple hundred scrolls a month.
By the same token, I don't think the average player is doing more than a hundred dungeons in a month either.
Overall I'd say ang2.0 is not built for the average player at all, intentionally.

---

Talking about per-hour rates is a good way to compare apples to apples. For things like farming up DTs, knowing the rates matters a lot.

It doesn't mean that someone must spend an hour to get the per-hour rate -- it could be that they have 15 minutes free and are deciding between killing some raids, running a few dungeons, running a tower, or killing stuff on the world map.

[raven bane]

Well from my perspective, as a very active player who was intentionally saving for anguish 2 since announcement, I've only spent a few hundred scrolls over the past year and had an 1100 scroll stock at launch (not including 1200 or so super raid scrolls). I don't think I'm getting more than 200 base summon scrolls a month without going out of my way to farm them.

Sure per hour rates are useful, but definitely don't tell the full picture in terms of agony. If you choose to play agony every time, you'll eventually not be able to play agony, the same can't really be said for the other paths.

[harsh geyser]

Yeah, that's why the full measure includes scroll farming time. Even with scroll farming, agony is sufficiently far ahead of the others that time spent scroll farming + time spent raid killing still generates more proofs per-time than e.g. just dungeoning/towering/worldmobbing for proofs.

[raven bane]

There's no question that its more proofs per time on activity, but I think it feels appropriate with current numbers. I think even ideal scroll farming conditions do not produce on an hourly basis enough scrolls to sustain more than 15 minutes of raiding. The numbers for the most heavily gated activity feel appropriate imo.

[plush nimbus]

If you re talking about the number I shared, it was on ang4, with T10 raids, just for information

[raven bane]

I'm not going off any specific numbers just my own experience at agony 21

[plush nimbus]

There are multiple factor to take into account. I agree scrolls have to be farmed, and it has to be taken into account. But if rewards/time spend is much better on this path, even including scroll farm time, it may quickly become problematic for the balance, especially when you can strongly target scrolls farming with some way, and also particular events that are not that rare, and happen enough to completely destroy game economy imho

Ragnarok, rift, halloween...

[languid cave]

And by destroy game economy you mean allow a newer player to catch up with adequate time investment.....sounds like a gatekeeper mind set last I checked we didn't have a player economy just a sweaty flex fest wanting to limit access XD I liked difficulty at start and if someone wants to poor the coal to er let em takes time to farm scrolls and its hella tedious in world farm events but don't destroy their fun XD y'all gota stop comparing run your own race and go for leaderboards if ya want though it is literally just a flex XD

[plush nimbus]

(again this is just another exemple ➡️). As you are lvl 21 agony, I think you know you can kill those T8 raids in a blink, while getting, with your current agony level, around 20 PoA/raid (and random mats on top of it). IIRC, it's 1 currencie each for T8 scrolls, and it's not like people never spammed hundreds or thousands T10 scrolls (X5 cost).
Is it so unrealistic for you to farm 1k T8 scroll and to kill them in like 2 days each ? That's 20k currencies, or 20k cort, for 2 days of farming with probably your usual time/day.
20k proof of melanc ? Let's say you get to ang 20, for 50%, it's like 14 proof average/dungeons. That's 1430 to match the PoA you ll get from Jorm spamming.
So yes, we can indeed take into account the scrolls needed at first to earn 1k currencies to craft jorm scroll, it's like 12/raids, so less than 100 scrolls do the job. It's just what is currently available.

[raven bane]

Yeah but this is largely because agony was the only one you could preload a large part of the effort.

[plush nimbus]

No, that's just taking care of game economy.
For your dear information, I removed all my 200 ascension level in hope for refineries to get removed because economy were just completely broken. So I don't want to face your toxic comment not related to suggestions/maths but just personnal non sense.
This update is fresh, questionning game economy seems fair. I offered some ideas, just like others, to ⬆️ some path when needed while ⬇️ some others, and that's about it

[languid cave]

Yea economy in a trade less game gatekeep harder

[plush nimbus]

If it's too rewarding, it can be targeted, it's not like there are no event/way to do that. Again, I m totally fine if scroll farming time is taken into account, not trying to kill raids path or to make it less rewarding than others, but just to avoid one being much more rewarding than others.

[raven bane]

I understand what you're saying but I really don't see the current numbers as an issue. Hard to balance around these events without gutting the content year round. Imo just make jorg scrolls 2 runes of each or something.

[plush nimbus]

It's really annoying seing people with this kind of personal comment when some people just try to have a fair and balanced game. Why don't you comment on my suggestion to have a better proof drop on tower ? Dungeons ? And so on. Why don't you comment on my posts long ago to help travelers guild ? To help providing equal access to tower ? But no, it's just "oh you re on top of a LB that doesn't mean much so you just wanna shit on others". For your information, I was already annoying as hell when I was far lower on this absurd LB.

[plush nimbus]

Those are suggestions that may help too ! But if we want something a bit more balanced, something has to be done IMHO

[harsh geyser]

If your only concern is "gatekeeping" then there's no problem with NF making all ascensions cost 1 orn each, tomorrow. AL 10,000, let's go!

Kinda tired of the pushback on every single proposed nerf to anything ever, no matter how small or large to be "think about the new players!"

We are thinking about the new players -- they deserve to have a good and sensible set of in-game incentives for activities. Ideally people shouldn't feel like they "have" to anguish, or "have" to specifically raid in agony for anguish. There is a very real point to balancing the economy of a single player game; it's the same reason weapons and armor have certain values on them, or enemies have certain amount of hp or attack.

[plush nimbus]

THANK YOU FUX

[languid cave]

....it's literally them quiting cause of the gap but again gatekeep harder

[harsh geyser]

Beyond that, the guild is brand new. It should absolutely be an expectation that rates of things will be changed (probably several more times over months, or a year) before they settle.

[raven bane]

Imo melancholy could use a light buff, agony is okay due to limitations on participating, towers are appropriate because the secondary rewards are extremely high, haven't done enough despair to have an opinion but seems like it has promise under optimal conditions

[plush nimbus]

I removed all my ascension level in january, and all my mats earned on 300+ day time play. I think it's fair to say Fux and I just care here about having something fair for everyone rather than just accusing for no reason

[languid cave]

My issue is the nerf mindset why not balance it to what feels good not rouph it into the dirt

I'm always reading nerf this nerf that

It's pathetic

[snow sage]

Buff Avidity

[languid cave]

5 years is a long time to see a community go from crafting the next cool build to nerf me harder daddy

[raven bane]

Agony being my main go-to has not stopped me from participating frequently in melancholy and towers. Agony has also been the most consistent source of interesting active gameplay compared to the others where autopilot is still pretty feasible and rewarding

[plush nimbus]

So, when Odie made a change to deity stat boost and it was infinite scaling, where were you to ask to keep it 🤷🏻‍♂️
Again, as it's fresh update, it's just fair to discuss economy, we re not trying to fight for our personal character, but for the game in general. I love dungeons, and I would be totally ok to ask for a nerf to this content if it s too rewarding/time compare to something else

[plush nimbus]

It's not like our suggestion will kill agony ! 😅

[languid cave]

I don't actively acknowledge for nerfs unintentional play if repaired regardless

Like wtf beg

[harsh geyser]

These are my numbers and (I've been testing and grinding proofs, about to hit 8/8/8/8 and) afaict they're about right:
https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/1377194080718553150/1385340639528616078

Puts agony at 10 assuming uwu access, melancholy at 5, torment at 5, and despair (surprisingly) at 8.

I thought earlier on that Despair was still too low, but instead it's just that it's so mind-numbing that time slows down. Like watching paint dry. 😅 But in terms of time spent, it's pretty fast.

[harsh geyser]

It sounds like you have some serious issues that have nothing to do with Anguish 2.0 that you need to go work out.

[plush nimbus]

It's not autopilot on my case on horde (no boss as too painful) melanc farming tbh. And it's really nice, fresh, fun. I'm happy you have this feeling on raids too, that's sincerely great. Idea is not to kill it, and I hope we ll all find some fair solutions

[languid cave]

It actually feel it's good now I just came in here and saw what looked like ppl whining for nerfs without considering that ppl prepped scrolls by the 1000s XD

Early birds are a lot of the waves here I backed off my push cause of it

[plush nimbus]

Why not just say "on my side it seems good as I m not playing hardcore, I hope if something is done to this path it won't kill my farm totally". And we can answer it's not the intent at all

Keep going Ladyboi, I m immune and may consider to GF this ⬆️
Please, again we re not trying to kill a content and so on. We re trying to both keeping it nice while balancing with other contents, taking into account multiple factor.

[languid cave]

Yea I'm spending alot more time than I should playing tbh agony launched and tdubs an I raided 11h a day for a week straight into the nerf than it was like.....well I don't wanna bring that up

[plush nimbus]

And if I may, your wording doesn't help much. You re fine with current raid economy, that's nice and I m glad for you. It doesn't mean it's balanced, so we're discussing it. And that's about it.

[plush nimbus]

Maybe try other path, so you have a better feeling of what each path can give.

[languid cave]

I'm up on all paths ma guy it's slog AF if you didn't prep

[plush nimbus]

That's being said, I have to go.
Just a tiny word for NF/Odie to say I really like this update and the intent behind it.

[plush nimbus]

Yeah, interesting, thank you. 🙏🏻

[languid cave]

Just do it lol it ain't hard 😭

It's bad luck to leave those df

[plush nimbus]

It's also not related to the curent thread. Bye.

[raven bane]

Yeah I think these numbers look appropriate, had a hunch that despair was better than it seemed. Again, I think melancholy could probably be upped to a 6. But even with UP access it won't be something that can be continuously farmed unless you rolled like 8 UP this week or have party/alts.

[languid adder]

156 Dungeons for 130 proofs, what...

[languid adder]

Can you link the message?

[plush nimbus]

(130 proof was from 10 minutes of T10 raids ang4, translate into 780 proof/hour. With ang 4 dungeons, around 17% drop rate = 5 proof/dungeons, so it's 156 dungeons for those proofs. It was just a quick exemple, outside of what could be done with particular "raid events")

[languid adder]

Ah, i understand what yiu mean

Tho melancholy 1 alone drops more then that so i the math is a bit off

[plush nimbus]

?

[languid adder]

Its more like 9-10 in my experience at ang 4, normal/boss horde

[plush nimbus]

Mel 1 is 12%

[plush nimbus]

Far from it 🙏🏻

[languid adder]

I got 126 Tokens from 13 dungeons last time i counted and one of them was a beast den x3

But also, i could just been lucky

I find melancholy itself very slow as you dont really go much into dungeons nowadays and if you do, you do for Events, which usually arent t10 mobs

[plush nimbus]

(It's around 17%. 30 T10/dungeon. .17*30 = around 5.
You just get a good rng drop rate on your run. As for now, on anguish 17 it's around 12/13 on each dungeon cleared)

[languid adder]

So its even slower then i thought? Oh god.

[plush nimbus]

Thanks for your messages. Time for me to try to sleep. See you soon 🎉👋🏻

[languid adder]

Dungeons are by far my favorite content in the game but with how unrewarding they became now, i dont do them much, so i dont test enough in it.
Knowing that i will touch them even less...

[plush nimbus]

That's the main point of the current talk here for now, trying to find good ratio on each path so everyone can go into each path with a feeling of fair progress 🙏🏻

[vocal basalt]

At mel 6 i get 3-6 most of the time

[plush nimbus]

It doesn't mean each path has to be equal, as there are some factor to take into account as said here several times, like content access, scroll farming and so on. It would just be nice to have something as balanced as it could be

[languid adder]

I get that, fully agree on that sentiment.
Agony is really good atm, towers are a good middle ground, despair is okay-ish but melancholy really needs some adjustments imo.

Tho making proof drops not be bound to one tier outside of agony could smooth it out much more.

[plush nimbus]

Tower for exemple have always been more rewarding compared to dungeons if talking about Time/rewards, but it's not something I feel bad about, as in some way it is a bit balanced because it's a bit more tiring than some other path (some may disagree), and it's not as easy to access compared to dungeons

[languid adder]

It is tiring, and while you wont get much slower the first few levels of anguish, you will most definitely die much faster.
I fully get what you mean, tho its not really "hard" to access in the sense that its designed for endgame players. There is a lot of wild towers, a lot lot.

[finite flint]

avg per floor is 3 solo, so it's 30 t10 at lvl 250 in dungeons. It's more in parties though

[finite flint]

i mean if you do towers you can even use shards for scrolls. Pushing ever-higher AL is being punished a lot currently if you want to progress in anguish anyway

[plush nimbus]

It feels a bit lower than that but it's maybe an illusion. But that's also one of the reason why I m hoping for 3-5 rather than 2-5 solo. Still better to run with full party, but a bit less painful when running solo or duo

[finite flint]

a slight note on despair given we are talking optimized farming: memory remains

[finite flint]

this event dilutes the t10: every monoceros or manticore you get from F16 is one less chance for a proof

[finite flint]

because of beast event

[plush nimbus]

(I run without event)

[naive lynx]

#1377194080718553150 message

Was right above this

[raven bane]

From straight minmax perspective buying a scroll for shards is worth way less than spending on a DM

[finite flint]

if you need mats yes

unless you already have too many DMs anyway from towers themselves

but if we enter a mentality where it's not about AL-ing to infinity anymore because it's worthless

and it's rather to level up anguish asap (if you care about that)

then shards- > scroll is a way to lvl up agony quicker

[raven bane]

That's true, but I thought the balance concerns people had were due to pushing AL via agony vs other methods. If you're foregoing a better AL method to push agony then that's a net loss. One thing I'll say is that with new anguish shop DM are a lot more appropriate price.

[vocal basalt]

Ik but i havent seen significant change before and after beastfelled started

[languid adder]

Oh that you ment! Thank you. I misread it then :D

[languid adder]

I usually work myself through 300 on a good event and used almost all mine with the double even with polly

[finite flint]

tower got IMPROVED (significantly) by anguish 2.0 , they are still the best way to AL

[peak pond]

I followed most (not all 😂 ) of the discussion here, and maybe I misunderstood something, but the general idea would be to reduce ALs (with shackles) to level up faster. Or as Odie stated "So, you’d be giving up around 100 ALs to double the speed of levelling" -> I think that would be a great way forward.

However, couldn't the specific proposal simply be circumvented by running with full ALs (unshackled) to farm proofs, and then switching to "shackled" to profit from the cheaper price for the levelling up?

There was also an interesting alternative proposal somewhere above: The idea was to drop something like "shackled proofs" (obviously if you run shackled), which could be exchanged (in the guild) for "normal proofs" at a rate of 1:2 or so. This would result in a faster level-up if you run shackled, or a slower level-up if you want to use all ALs (i.e. fast and easy content, which is somewhat contradictory to the general idea of "anguish").
[However, depending on the specific implementation, the result could be similar if the proofs simply dropped at a substantially higher rate for shackled.]

[umbral blaze]

Yeah, I was wondering about that loophole as well, just couldn't word it out. A proof of shackling like I had proposed can circumvent that and in case you reach your highest possible ang level they can still be potentially used as normal proofs with like 1/4th the value (proposed exchange rate)

[paper void]

Yeah, that bit nullifies the approach. We’d need some kind of cooldown, etc, to shackling, which just isn’t ideal

We will need to come up with something else

[naive lynx]

Your proofs are still low as hell unshackled. It's just makes it quick short term to get to your difficulty. You still have to do most of the heavy lifting and it gets harder as you get closer to your ALs

It's imo the best option I've seen this far minus gaining shackle proofs as a separate drop and perhaps using those to to help with ONLY anguish leveling. You can't use them otherwise. It gives incentives to run shackled to get to your desired content a smidge quicker and doesn't become op with mats etc and eventually they dont drop when you are unshackled or don't enable them obviously

[sinful vapor]

Idk proofs of shackling sound neat. My recommendation:

• They only drop while shackled OR below the target AL
• Can be used to level up at a discounted price
• Can be exchanged for cosmetics

[nocturne night]

There was this one idea I had once, which I'm not even particularly sure if it was feasible or if it'd fix all the problems

Lemme grab that rq

Anguish Overdrive:

||Hidden away in spoiler tags are alternatives to some portions of Overdrive. They go together, meaning if you're looking at one Alternative, all the other Alternatives need to be considered as well.||

• Unlocks at Ascension 100(?) // ||Alternatively, is always unlocked||
  -# This is an arbitrarily high ascension level. It can't be too low, or else it's alt abuseable, but it can't be too high, or it's unuseable.
• One Overdrive per Path
• Sets your Anguish Level to 25 on that specific Path // ||Alternatively, sets your Anguish Level to the highest level your character can remain Unshackled at.||
  -# This does not count for Guild Allegiance
• Lasts until turned off, or until you unlock Anguish 25 on the same path
• Anguish Shop unuseable as long as any Overdrive is active.
  -# This is to prevent using Overdrive to skip the levelling altogether, and to instantly go back to purchasing materials/tools with ANG25 drops.
• Once turned Off, can NEVER be turned back on, on that path. Big red warning Hold Bars to both turn on and turn off.
  -# This is to prevent flicking Overdrive on and off to re-open the shop.
• Anguish Level can still be changed between any unlocked level and the Overdrive Level
  -# This is so that people don't get locked out of content if the Overdrive level is too hard, but they don't want to end the Overdrive
• Choices unalterable until you unlock corresponding level. Defaults to 1st Choice on all levels.
  -# This is entirely optional, but I imagine it's easier to program is as such than otherwise. It also gives some more incentive to levelling up, as people'll be able to customize their overdrive experience over time.

Reason behind the system:

• Allows the high ascension people to go in full blast with most or all their ascension power, not having to wait a long time to re-earn their power - all the while not actually skipping the grind, so that their inherent advantage isn't overwhelming either.

[plush nimbus]

Interesting, but I don't understand how it doesn't skip the grind

To me, with how it is currently, it's for now fine as high AL means you benefit from not having to slow down the leveling to farm AL to reach higher anguish level on path

[nocturne night]

It doesn't skip the grind in the way that, despite being put on anguish25, they still have to pay for levels 1 to 25

[plush nimbus]

If I m AL 50, I will probably have some issue to clear content where AL 50+ are available, so I will need to spend proof to gain AL - or spend time on other things until I reach AL to be able to farm on higher anguish. So, the faster progress, imho, is already here. Is this enough ? Idk, for now I feel it's fine

[nocturne night]

And yes, some people are fine with it, but some really aren't. This is hopefully a middleterm that can be enjoyed by both parties.

[plush nimbus]

Yes, I can understand that

[nocturne night]

Of the most active in discussion and gameplay, Rhayvhenn and Omnus are fairly unhappy with the ascension mitigation

And the main piece of feedback is that they have to earn their power back - not that the game is too hard or that the grind is too long, but that they are locked out of something they had worked towards already

[plush nimbus]

Personaly, I like the process, with gear upgrade and so on, and if it means I won't AL for some time I m fine with it. But I can understand some are unhappy with it

[nocturne night]

Being dropped straight at ang25 would give them a very hard gameplay experience, but basically have all their ascensions unlocked from the getgo - and they'd still have to grind all the previous levels anyhow

[short osprey]

I would like this honestly, I don't even mind if this would technically be slower (as being thrown into Ang25 would probably earn less proofs/mins as it'll be difficult), but my overall dislike of shackles right now is due to just how long I need to use them. And that's not me saying the grind is too long, I love a long grind, but when I have to grind this long with shackles it doesn't feel great. Which is also why It never felt like an issue in the beta, as it was so quick to get to your difficulty level of your tier

[nocturne night]

A fun upside of being skydropped into 25 would also be that when you do get a piece of loot, it is much more likely better than what you are wearing, as opposed to the low anguish levels (after all, it is a 75% increase)

[short osprey]

100%! and trying to tackle the challenge of being thrown into Ang25 sounds kinda fun

[nocturne night]

And since the shop is locked, you won't have access to tools for a while.

(Which won't be needed for levelling, since just one equip drop is enough to fund the entire journey)

[naive lynx]

I also like the overdrive idea, different and unique.

[languid adder]

You cannot circumvent it as the rates you get from unshackled as high AL are so abyssmal that it is a straight up downgrade in most cases to play unshackled.

I have proof of concept if you want to, but 70% raid stats for .38% proof is really not something you want to take, except you play with a lower player and want to help him progress.

And the way you spoke about proofs of shackling, it would he a reward increase, which is what we want to circumvent.

[languid adder]

Honestly... That is an amazing idea.

We can use our power instantly, but we have to progress to it in retrospective.

I would say:

• let the overdrive be usable by everybody, but only "progressing" you up to the max AL shackled would allow
• let us still buy anguish items (demonwork, crucidble and definitely pathspurs etc else its hell) but no materials, scrolls, etc

I would add 1-2 "overdrived masterworking tools" (the ones that set your equip to the max anguish) that will be revoked once the overdrive is disabled, but maybe stay if you get up to your anguish.

So its not cheeseable, but the more AL you have the more stats you will be missing that you will need more propotinally

[nocturne night]

That's a pretty solid expansion on the system

Not sure the game can handle revoking item upgrades

[languid adder]

I cant imagine byre on anguish 60 having fun with 0 equipment

[nocturne night]

I.. don't think brye would be anguish 60 lol

[languid adder]

Then make it a Bonus!
No point in having an anguish X item if you cant use the stats anyway, it downscales

[languid adder]

It was just a number i picked

I dont know how the shackles scale since the buff :<

[nocturne night]

#🍂│late-game-⭐10 message This is as much as I know

Don't know what brye's AL is, but at that rate, even AL200 would be at ~ANG35

[languid adder]

So its scaling exponentially but the exponential function is hard to calculate so far cause numbers are too low

Byre we'rent you like 300?

Brye* sorry

[steep jetty]

324 atm, so maybe ang 50 ish

[languid adder]

Now that every level only takes 3 ascensions...
Mother of god.
The maluses.

Im sidetracking but i dont like -50% permabuff fade chance

But yes i really like the idea. I dont have to do a progression i dont feel like i should have to on a way weaker power then i am; its a fun idea. And i would neither cheese it, nor skip it.

Still the journey that was envisioned, but much more fun.

[nocturne night]

holy shit what

[languid adder]

I remembered 300 thats why i guessed 60 x3

[languid adder]

Adding to all that we would gain Data on how high anguish scaling works and if the maluses are realistic in a life environment ppl actively participate in, much more agressive then in beta

So we could also rescedule having the inevitable balance discussion in a few months to now!

[tacit ridge]

Any further consideration on the proposal to lower costs based on how much higher the AL of the player is vs the recommended AL for that Ang level?

[plush nimbus]

Just usual me thing, but for now I dislike those suggestions, as it feels like giving tools to players who already have easier access to higher anguish due to not having to spend mats on AL.
The grind doesn't feel that bad for now, in like 3 weeks (I think ?), I m at a point I get 40%+ drop rate for dungeons currencies. So I don't get why high AL should receive some straight boost

[paper void]

This doesn’t really encourage shackling, right? This idea is to reward for the power being given up

[plush nimbus]

Because for now it means they will not have to spend currencies on mats for AL (I m fine with it), and they will be given advantage of skipping the gear upgrade too.
I like the "marathon" part of anguish 2.0. new system, and rewards are fine quite quickly imho

[languid adder]

I don't think shackling needs to be encouraged with how much it is discouraged

.46% proof drop increase for ~80% stst increase is discouragement enough to not play unshackled, ever.

[paper void]

While there will be subjective opinions about how severe the penalties may be (especially for highly ascended), that doesn’t really change the motivations that led to the suggestion

[nocturne night]

Since you're here Odie, is anything from here salvageable as a decent idea? People here don't seem to dislike it, but I also don't really see something that complicated being implemented all willy nilly

[paper void]

There needs to be some tradeoff for the speed imo

[paper void]

I think it’s really cool, but likely much more work than we need

[nocturne night]

I figured as much. It's also another whole other system ontop whose only purpose is to bypass shackles, so ehhh

It's just hard to find something that works for both of the very extreme ends of the spectrum

[languid adder]

If there is no encouragement at all / no benefit to playing unshackled at any noticable AL difference, there doesnt really need to be an incentivise to play shackled, as the Factor that playing unshackled is a severe nerf, is sufficient.

If im not missing critical information, i dont see how unshackled is realistic at all

[paper void]

The point is to reward highly ascended for giving up their power - a blanket reduction in level costs does not achieve that, as they are not giving up any power

That is the lacking of encouragement to shackle

Otherwise we’re just asking for free passes imo

[languid adder]

I get what you mean, but i dont know any high AL that plays unshackled, as the rewards are too low to be considered feasable - so high ALs play shackled cause they are discouraged from unshackled by the very severe penalty provided. It is just slower, and much less rewarding, then playing shackled, its a nerf and only used to farm higher lv anguish gear for those who stick to 4, or to carry lower players.

If we had an incentivize to shackle, like goodies or bonusses based on the AL we forfeit, we would'nt have this discussion in the first place.

Therefore, if we add an incentivise on top, we would have not only a fast pass, BUT a reason to shackle but peer pressure by the iteration of the system.

[sinful vapor]

Odie are you toying with the idea of proofs of shackling

I'd love to earn some... sheckles for my shackles

[summer folio]

Not sure if suggested already, but when shackled, boost earn rates by the amount of ALs given up? Example: if giving up 100 AL, at 0.1%/AL, you get a 10% bonus. High AL rewards you for your sacrifice, though the content is just as difficult, and now you have to choose between spending proofs on mats for AL level or Ang level up.

[sinful vapor]

Can't do that quite like that because it would mean players that have less ALs than the shackles would be earning less

[raven bane]

Any time you receive a proof while shackled it lowers the level up cost based on your the shackles penalty for that level

Up to a cap based on your shackle penalty

[sinful vapor]

So a simpler, built-in version of sheckles

That sounds fine, no need to introduce a new currency

[tacit ridge]

I always read that suggestion as being unrelated to shackles, and more like a way to address the complaints of some highly ascended players that they’re not having their ALs respected by the new system (not saying I necessarily agree with this, just thought that it stemmed from what @wanton raft was saying previously)

[summer folio]

The numbers can be altered so it's not such an overwhelming boost, but that does seem to be the argument though, players with high AL want to reach their difficulty sooner, which implies earning faster or decreased costs, functionally the same thing. And they want to be rewarded for their past grind. As Ang levels up, and therefore shackles get more lenient, the boost decreases. Fwiw, I'm fine with the current system.

[sinful vapor]

Oh earning more proofs is definitely not the same thing as lowering level up costs

Proofs are just a straight up reward

It's just a little trickier to implement than inverting the reward scaling on unshackled

We don't want a player that is already highly ascended to inherently get more rewards than a newer player with less ALs, that's all

[wanton raft]

I am open to any solution that allows me to play with my AL's and feel like I am rewarded for increasing the difficulty. I am not sure this is my preferred solution but I am certainly open to anything that accomplishes my goals and hopefully still has a world where people who want to play shackled also get sufficiently rewarded for doing so.

I have been throwing the idea around of just having two different guilds. Call them separate things so its super clear in discussion that someone is talking about the shackled version and it has its own leadership board for prestige of climbing that guild.

They both make anguish gear so high al's can go and climb the shackled gear later for a different challenge if they want and the players that start low and did shackled they can level up the anguish guild later on for bonus awards if they want.

This also allows both to be fine tuned for difficulty and rewards instead of trying. to manage both at the same time. And in the long run its more potential content.

But I am not a programmer so I have no idea if this is easy or hard for Odie and his team.

[umbral blaze]

Okay wow, I tested out despair farming again today without having access to a riftbreak for doing mob resets and it's probably back to the slowest method to farm anguish proofs

Even slower considering you can't filter out mobs which you have to wait 5 mins for due to connection timeout

[harsh geyser]

The speed shouldn't change much. You should ~only be hitting T10s on the map, and once you tap them then you have to WV or irl move around or something to force new spawns. Riftbreaks made it a lot easier to do so, but the total number of T10 enemies killed and time spent should be the same.

If you're unable to move/force spawns and start hitting T9s, then yeah it's mega terrible. Half the rate or worse than a stream of pure T10s.

I contend that it's still mostly a factor of how little variety and excitement there is in the game mode. 10 minutes tapping T10s on the world map and one-shotting them in single combat is way longer than 10 minutes climbing a tower and one-shotting fights with swansong/BL2/whatever. The latter has chests which change things, a much higher penalty for failure for the occasional non-one-shot, big boss at the end, etc.

The all-paths pattern I've been doing (every hour/wv cooldown) is:

• despair kill T10s with archalchemy
• wv to a dungeon spot, clear a bunch of melancholy
• despair kill T10s at that wv site
• return to OT for towers/monuments for torments
• do a handful of raids back at OT if agony is falling behind the others

[umbral blaze]

I just think that despair should be this bad without being mobile or having access to method to reset world mobs (namely using riftbreaks)

It already is the path which most people won't participate in due to the content itself not having any extra benefits like dungeons, towers, raids and monuments

[harsh geyser]

As a QoL feature, it'd be cool to do something in the OT (light a special brazier? do a rain dance?) and force respawns around you. Just as people can use wvs, riftbreaks, terrablight/arisen waygate to force movement to force respawns during event times of the year.

That being said -- I think I'd even more prefer that Despair be all about Riftbreaks, and tie into Riftbreaks more heavily as a dedicated player effort/activity.

[umbral blaze]

Aren't most riftbreaks such that the highest tier mob isn't t10? I know that mimic invasion will have t10s, not sure about others

I haven't participated in most other riftbreaks either so I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the spawn for the others

[harsh geyser]

I've -suggested it here and elsewhere, but yeah I think Riftbreaks should get a special Despair carve-out.

Really I want the feature to just be loved in general since it's still criminally underused (in a GPS game). Ideally force all spawns in a riftbreak up to player tier which might cause some cool effects, or make sure riftbreaks always contain at least some good T10 enemies, or income-wise just make sure that all enemies in a riftbreak drop Despairs at on-tier rates.

It would be nice to see a Sunstroke or Rat Outbreak and think "oh I should irl move over there and kill stuff in it for Despair/any reason" because currently there is zero reason to engage with it.

[umbral blaze]

That works as well, I just don't want despair to be the path which is reliant on very specific riftbreaks (mimic invasion or event specific ones)

I'd still like a way to have t10 only mobs in world though, even if only for 1 hour a day

[sinful vapor]

Why are y'all cherry picking t10s, that is not as efficient as murdering everything

The time you spend cherry picking and forcing respawns is not worth the time it takes to kill t9s and clear the way for more t10s

[umbral blaze]

Because non t10s don't drop proofs, and if you're stationary you're pretty much forced to kill t9s anyways

[umbral blaze]

Nah, believe me. Forcing respawns with a riftbreak is super quick

I was able to average 150+ proofs an hour with forcing t10 respawns

[short osprey]

The time it takes to leave/change parties to force respawns is definatly worth it (riftbreaks is even faster)

[harsh geyser]

If Despair, in terms of player activity/choices, becomes something like:

• world mob to pass the time, lowish reward, very lowish effort/investment
• riftbreaks, medium reward, some irl investment but still low effort
• G/MRs/sundrops/crests, high reward, relatively low effort but rare materials

... then that wouldn't be bad, for the path.

[umbral blaze]

(at ang level 3)

[harsh geyser]

disagree.

if you just spend 5 minutes cherrypicking and killing the T10 spawns, then switch over to dungeons or whatever, then that's very efficient in terms of proofs/player-time.

[sinful vapor]

I really don't think you guys have tried spam killing everything at your feet

[short osprey]

I have done a lot of world farming, I can almost 100% guarantee you it's faster

[umbral blaze]

I am trying it right now and it is nowhere even close to yesterday when I was using the vagrant beasts riftbreaks

[sinful vapor]

Do you also cherry pick pegasus when farming windtamer scrolls

[short osprey]

I did yes

[harsh geyser]

I mean, we have good data on this from Vagrant Beasts. 😅 It's like 2-3x faster scrolls of windtaming across thousands of killed mobs to do force-resetting than to kill gwyllgis/hengreons/llamrai.

[sinful vapor]

How many scrolls per riftbreak or per 20/30 minutes would you average

[harsh geyser]

If it's true for windtaming, then it's also true for proofs of despair (same reward source).

[umbral blaze]

I managed to reached 35 scrolls an hour yesterday

[sinful vapor]

I got that in 45 minutes

With breaks

[umbral blaze]

🤔

[harsh geyser]

a post I made back in June 2024 when the event first showed up:

[5:02 PM]Fuximus (GS122): Since GPeg is worth 3x as much as the others...
Since there is no cooldown on leaving and re-entering...

Optimal farming is to only kill gpegs and then quickly leave, force sync, rejoin, force sync. (Kingdom entry forces server sync). I filmed a little slowly there, I can flicker to reset everything in a few seconds, about as much as one-two fights. Way way more efficient to do that then kill an enemy worth 1/3rd what a GPeg is worth in terms of event mats.
[5:05 PM]Fuximus (GS122): I got +500 all mats in 45 minutes this way; compared to roughly +400 all mats in 90 minutes just "killing every event thing that spawns". More than double the farming speed using reentry to selectively target GPegs.

[umbral blaze]

Is my game just slower than everyone else's, I had practically no down time between each kill and reset

[tacit ridge]

Forcing respawns, especially in riftbreaks, is insanely faster

[umbral blaze]

Looks like I really need to clear out my inventory. Red bar of doom is the death of my world farm efficiency

[tacit ridge]

With a riftbreak it’s literally 5 seconds to do it

Leave riftbreak, open guild menu, return to riftbreak, open guild menu

[sinful vapor]

The point is you're wasting time cherry picking t10s

[tacit ridge]

If you happen to hit 2 riftbreaks you literally just hop between them

[tacit ridge]

You’re wasting time getting 1 drop per monster instead of 3. Its super inefficient

[sinful vapor]

20 mats/minute

Tell me that's inefficient

[tacit ridge]

With just a little bit of VD you can easily pick out the t10s

[livid sonnet]

does inventory affect that much things like dungeon runs?, i swear sometimes it takes like 10 seconds between floors, and sometimes instantly (without clearing inventory) xD

[tacit ridge]

When you’re engaging one you’re already seeing where the next one is

[sinful vapor]

Look at the video

[tacit ridge]

I saw the video

I can do close to the same speed on Pegasus only

[harsh geyser]

In the numbers I gave, I got 1500 mats (500 "all mats") in 45 minutes doing force reset and cherry-picking, which is 33 mats/minute.

[umbral blaze]

I think so yeah, I really need to clear out my inventory after this

[tacit ridge]

Guarantee it’s more scrolls/hour

[harsh geyser]

and it's worth pointing out here, for the similarity with proofs of despair -- non-GPegs are giving 1/3rd drop rate. unlike Despair, where non-T10s give 0/3rd drop rate of proofs.

[sinful vapor]

Zerks give more windtamer mats but sure

[harsh geyser]

zerks also give more GPeg drops, so it's immaterial

[sinful vapor]

Kinda, but you're losing a lot of zerk spawns to the other 3 monsters

[umbral blaze]

You also refresh zerks more with the trick so that's why it is much faster

[sinful vapor]

I understand what the trick is lol

[harsh geyser]

zerks affect GPeg/non-GPeg for mats and zerks don't affect T10/non-T10 for proofs. so it doesn't affect the comparison; the term falls out.

[sinful vapor]

Idk I think the time spent swiveling your camera and moving fingers to the mobs/battle buttons is a big time loss

If you were legitimately getting 33/mats an hour (not how I read your post at first) then I guess that's better

Seems to require more focus than spam killing

[harsh geyser]

higher rewards for increased player focus 👌 don't mind that outcome for Despair path

[sinful vapor]

Also distinguishing between great peg and llamrai, exarcebated by cherry picking normal t10s for despair

Easy to lose time there

Accidentally tapping the wrong t9 monster

[short osprey]

You don't need to move the camera to cherry pick

(also if I tap on this slaugh 1 more time that's on cooldown from the bug I swear to God )

[sinful vapor]

Seems less sustainable than spam killing but fair

Less sustainable because you're constantly straining to find the next t10, seeing if one is hidden underneath something else, making decisions on when to refresh, etc

That's a large stream of information that seems best done in short bursts as Fux mentioned

[short osprey]

I just look for where to tap next as i'm tapping the "battle" button, but if I do click a T9 it is faster to just keep going and kill it than to exit the screen all things said

[sinful vapor]

Waiting for the xpless novel

[trail radish]

I'm... not sure it even belongs here tbh. I feel like I want a separate thread for just this topic, lmao

[sinful vapor]

For world farming?

[trail radish]

yeah. I just feel like I have too many questions, comments, and concerns

[sinful vapor]

You're that passionate?

Dumb question

I mean go for it

[vocal basalt]

This man playin orna in a NASA device

[sinful vapor]

Spam killing can be done almost afk, just mindlessly spamming while watching tv or something. Cherry picking gives more rewards but requires undivided attention

[short osprey]

Defiantly the best way to put it! all comes down to how you're playing in the moment

[sinful vapor]

Samsung galaxy a54, old model but only about a year old now. Low graphics, fast animations

[vocal basalt]

Do you guys often clear inv?

[sinful vapor]

Oh yeah

If I have a red banner I get rid of it when possible

[vocal basalt]

Mine runs about 5x slower not even kidding

[short osprey]

Do you not?!?

[vocal basalt]

Jeez then i gotta clear it again :c

[short osprey]

If I don't clear my inv every day minimum my game runs significantly slower

[vocal basalt]

I dont, thats even more tedious than refilling refineries 😭

[short osprey]

Takes 30-40 seconds

[vocal basalt]

Not when you have a ton of stuff laying around (menu becomes way slower too)

[sinful vapor]

If you keep up with it once a day or couple days, it's not bad. The annoying part is when you have stuff you might want, gotta chekc your inv

[vocal basalt]

Especially when forfeiting stuff

[sinful vapor]

Accessories and adornments are the annoying ones

[vocal basalt]

Yes you guys are right. I'll try clearing one tab a day

[short osprey]

I will admit, adorns are a pain

[sinful vapor]

I only keep normal qualities in junk now

[harsh geyser]

I definitely wish augments were in a different tab. trying to carefully walk the adorn minefield so I don't toss out something desirable like broken lungs of eos sucks.

[sinful vapor]

At least there's filters for them

[dim jacinth]

i store all my adorns in the keep, helped out a ton. inverting locked is also very great for inventory managment

[sinful vapor]

Why store them in keep, that seems like a ticking time bomb

[tacit ridge]

I wish inventory was structured in a way that it didn’t impact performance. Not even sure if that’s possible but the game has grown so much and there are so many desirable pieces of equipment that having to play clean up daily just to avoid lag is super annoying

[short osprey]

using the "not-exotic" feature and sorting by weapon and then armor is really helpful I find, as then I just throw everything out (-ornates obv)

[tacit ridge]

Do new ones automatically get thrown there or do you still need to junk them?

[dim jacinth]

they aren't affecting my gameplay experience so this seems like the best option

[sinful vapor]

I think your keep can freeze out

[sinful vapor]

Yes - all normals will automatically stack there

And I just drop non-normals

[umbral blaze]

The armour and weapons sections is quite the light work to clean out, accessories and adornments on the other hand are a nightmare

[topaz hazel]

oh I'm not the only one who does this

every once in a while I accidentally press the sell all junk button and I'm just in shambles for a bit lol

[sinful vapor]

I think John mentioned that's how he did it

I just copied

[livid sonnet]

i need a permanent Affinity stat xD it's so hard to know if the current ornate is better than the others :v

specially when one of them is leveled up

[trail radish]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1387161648888021023

[languid adder]

Spreading rewards across T10/9 would make it much less cumbersome and most likely more fun to engage.
You pop a candle and start Killing, it wont feel like i am harvesting my fields in Minecraft anymore

[left mauve]

Soooo, about that button that reset a raid to ang0 and full life to allow party playing... can we expect it soon ?

[naive lynx]

Doubtful

[left mauve]

what a pain...
Sharing raids was pretty much the only multiplayer content left for kingdom mate.

[grave fulcrum]

So make sure you drop scrolls or they drop scrolls at a lvl you both have unlocked then it's not actually an issue because you both can go DPS/tank

Tho I would like a hide other player raids button so I can drop scrolls at a wv without having to have my buddy moved out of party to see my raids

[left mauve]

That's genius bru, didnt think of it.

more seriously : i wanted to dump 300/400 scroll for trev and finess. Maybe 20% of it would be what i seek and want to duo.
The rest would be something i want to do solo with anguish because trash.

your genius "solution" only work with dedicated scrolls, or just waste shitton of raids only to duo 10/20% of it

Since you cant anticipate what regular scrolls will spawn.

[grave fulcrum]

You still get proofs for it and you can drop them x at a time giving you the ability to increase anguish lvl as you go with your duo doing the same (duo them all)

[molten leaf]

i really wish we could change anguish level of stuff evena fter we enter a dungeon/summon a raid....

[left mauve]

i dont think we understand each others here.
I want to Anguish5+ trash raids solo, since very few people can.
I want to Ang0/1 event raid with mates to help them.
So no, "Duo them all" aint the answer here

[grave fulcrum]

But it is because you can bring them to anguish 5+ over time it's like 30 raids? To get anguish 2 and another 50-60 for anguish 3 trev isn't a difficult raid you would still be able to kill him in 6 turns you'd gain passive income for going up in anguish while helping kg mates get anguish 2 3 4 and possibly 5 with 400 scrolls

[grave fulcrum]

The reason we can't is because people were abusing the changes in anguish per fight so endless 250 ang 50 on summoner zerk boss and ang 50 towers where you'd start with 0 get your temp buff/ buffs and then send it for ang 50 to the end of the tower resulting in more gains than intended I prefer not being able to change anguish because it means if you can't complete that anguish since it's per content now you shouldn't be on that anguish

[molten leaf]

oh i didnt knew that, would be nicer for raids though 🙂

cuz i'm in thesame boat as kyalexx, buddy invited me to do raids, but my anguish lvl is too low 😦

[full peak]

which is - again - far from he wants

[vocal basalt]

Maybe if you could lvl them down but not back up again (?)

[left mauve]

So i do this with kingdom mate 1, he finally get the desired loot.
then i cant continue with member 2, have to go back and do it again ?
etc.

Also i might want to finish my raids at the propers Ang level if my mate finally get what he want.

Anyway, your answer basically being "who care about ang level, just go ang 1 and carry the other while wasting your scroll" just show we dont play the same game here.

[molten leaf]

your discussion is futile, both arguments are different and valid 😄

[left mauve]

no, Jinx argument is far from valid mate.

[full peak]

honestly, if it the raids will be just by lowest ang of joined party memeber in party ... 🤷‍♂️

you could summon them all on ang20 ...and if someone ang1 join with you, raid will be too

it is up to you if you want to "sacrifice" it

(imo running it on lower ang is always a sacrifice 😄 )

[left mauve]

yeah that would be perfect.
But Odie said it could be cheesed.... cant see any possible way of cheesing by wasting a raid on lower ang, but eh, he's the boss.

[full peak]

well, alts of course

but that is same as farming scrolls with them and leveling them with your main ...or having them lower and "steal" their raids

honestly this wouldn't make much difference

[grave fulcrum]

How dare you invalidate someone's suggestion to help you get what you want out of it low-key kinda rude icl

[left mauve]

@full peak Even with alt i cant see any cheese out there.

• main spawn ang20 raids, duo them with ang1 alt > massive loss for main
• Alt spawn Ang1 raids, you go play ang1 raid as usual, wouldnt change anything, not more cheese since being ang20 give your the right to play ang1 anyway

[bronze plinth]

also note that ang lvl 1 raid vs ang lvl 5 raid has differend chance to get proofs

[left mauve]

I dare. 🙂
Invalidating an opinion is not being rude.
If you feel it is rude, it's an ego issue.

Your suggestion being to waste a shitton of ang scroll when we want to help some lower level player or just play with them aint a good suggestion.
Thus " Jinx argument is far from Valid", cause the solution is barely viable.

[bronze plinth]

i would not want to waste my scrolls on ang lvl 1 bc that is like 0-6 proofs per raid

vs 6-19 proofs per raid

i got 0 proofs lot more when i was doing ang lvl 1 raids vs now when im doing ang lvl 6

[grave fulcrum]

No invalidating someone's suggestion when they're simply trying to help you is rude it's not an ego thing is a respect thing as you were offered ways to work through your problem instead of being told shush up and just grind it out quit complaining and go next. That doesn't make it invalid and you're helping kg mates get gear already so why not help them get through some anguish content. And it's not wasting a shit ton its getting to spend time running with your mate rather than only running x scrolls and telling them that's all they get run the extra trash raids that you 1shot anyways. The other solution is just simply drop them at what every ang you have unlocked and tell them to let you know when they are that ang lvl. Anyways it's rather rude to invalidate and make someone who's only offering ways to get through the barrier you have feel as if they're suggestions don't matter. Instead thank them for the suggestion and move on creates a better environment for everyone not just you and that person

Anyways this isn't a discussion for here feel free to dm me if you have further issues but let's keep this chat positive and constructive for anguish 2.0

[sinful vapor]

Odie is probably putting this into the next patch or something lol

He said it was reasonable

That's Odie speak for

[left mauve]

Starting first answer by "So make sure to drop them at appropriate ang" feels more like "eh dumbo, solution is easy" than kind gentle suggestion 🙂
Also i'm here to help "create a better environment for everyone" with my previous message asking for a button to reset Ang. Or to have auto adjusted ang as Gurn suggested.

anyway i agree, we're done here 👍

[raven bane]

I think downgrading can create some weird trade scenarios where people will trade batches of easy raids scaled to a particular anguish level, not too much of an issue but there is a concern there.

I don't think there should be any issue with removing the anguish on a raid.

[grave fulcrum]

More specifically just make it lowest anguish lvl of all party members in lobby screen

[sinful vapor]

That can still be an issue

[trail radish]

That won't work for raids though? Doesn't the raid hp scale with Agony??

[sinful vapor]

Yes

Odie mentioned downscaling automatically would be filled with issues/difficult to implement.

He seemed to like the manual downgrade at the raid level idea

[sinful vapor]

Can you clarify?

[umbral blaze]

You give someone else only ang 20 t8 raids for example while killing all other raids at lower ang solo or smth like that I guess?

[left mauve]

imo any raid at any anguish should reset HP when joined as party. It would tame down a little the alt meta too
But that's just an opinion, probably unpopular :3

[left mauve]

cant see the point proof wise ? Ang20 raid are better value in any case 🤷

[umbral blaze]

Yeah, I don't see how that's really an exploit either. It's basically just making clearing out other raids faster

[full peak]

true, but it can work other way around too tbh, enter with ang1 ...let him die, take raid HP to nothing ...leave ....enter alone in 15minutes and finish it on ang20 ...ok, get it

[left mauve]

different ang, so reset too ?
But yeah i start to understand why it might be hard to implement for NF

[raven bane]

Its more so like trading/boosting, is high anguish player leaves all t8 horseman and uses them to boost other players in a way that wasn't previously possible.

[left mauve]

just gib us button

[sinful vapor]

Not sure I understand. How would this not be possible without anguish

[turbid sedge]

wow wow no one resets anything here 😨😨😨

1000+ new messages, I must have missed things 😅

[left mauve]

told you not to sleep until 5pm

[raven bane]

I dunno if any other content is boostable in that way, seems like you could funnel easy proofs/mats/levels down to other players. I already think the level of leeching people can do nowadays is pretty egregious. I don't think its a big concern with raids but there is a concern.

[sinful vapor]

But you can already give raids to lower players

You've always been able to do that

[raven bane]

Yes, I don't think its an issue if you can make the raids 0, only if you could downgrade to Ang X

[sinful vapor]

I see what you mean, but it feels fine to me - I love sharing raids with my kingdommates but found myself wanting every single anguished raid I had

I finally cleared out my wv after months of hoarding yggs and such to share solarite

[raven bane]

Yeah I just think its weird that you would be able to mainline proofs to another player (or an alt)

[sinful vapor]

Yes and no, you can also just lower your ang to their level before dropping the raids

The only relevance to lowering the raid level manually is tier9/8

You'd be able to spam at your ang lvl, keep all the t10s, and lower ang on the 9s and 8s

But you can instead just lower your ang ahead of time to their level and spawn everything there

[sinful vapor]

Not sure why you would want to when the 9s and 8s are just as rewarding though

Very minor "advantage" when giving raids to lower tiers

[peak pond]

I am usually doing duo raids. Now there is the additional "planning ahead" problem, that if one is levelling slightly faster (some solo raids), you have to spawn some raids at lower anguish for duo raid, some on your max level for solo and some "slightly above" your teammate, to be able to farm them together, once he reaches the next level.
It's ok for me, but I would prefer if reducing anguish would be possible (but NOT increasing!)

[sinful vapor]

Yeah I think this would be a great QOL overall with pretty minor negative implications to t8/9 alt farming

[languid adder]

So, we are still talking about raids i see?

So, since of yesterday, i ad a question.

Do people in here think (especially high AL) that playing unshackled is worth it at all compared to play shackled?

In terms of progression speed and reward ratio

[storm wadi]

For Despair and Torment, shackled has been much more rewarding. Haven't noticed much of a dip in speed since getting accustomed to shackles. Can't imagine myself running either of those paths unshackled

[umbral blaze]

I really hope the downgrade/remove ang button for raids does get added, I'd like to share some anguished raids with my kingdom members but since they're still either t9 or have very low als, I can't share them

[bronze plinth]

2 days

[languid adder]

Asking mostly cause of trying wrap my head around why we need an incentivise for playing shackled if unshackled is nerfing your rewards so severely you would never do it regardless.

So im trying to see if there is something i overlook

Cause currently with shackles i will just lose in all regards, so i would never chose it. Unshackled therefore is clearly telling you to not use it, so i dont see why we would need an incentivise to play shackled if the other option isnt realistic anyway

[sinful vapor]

Rhayvenn we already got the patch for fixing unshackled though

Unshackled is always at bare minimum, slightly more rewards than lvl4

[languid adder]

I get what you mean but the rewards are still not at all realistic if you are unshackled and i dont see a scenario in which you will use it outside of getting the anguish gear to level up or to carry other players

[sinful vapor]

It's completely realistic

I'm running ang5 unshackled for melancholy

[storm wadi]

The rewards for unshackled aren't "bad" necessarily, just not as great as shackled. If I didn't have the gear to run anguish shackled then I could run unshackled for less rewards but less difficulty

[sinful vapor]

If somehow I felt like the unshackled difficulty was too annoing, why would I even want to increase anguish at all?

[languid adder]

How how reward increase do you get if i may ask?

[sinful vapor]

Slightly

[languid adder]

But then i would just not increase

[sinful vapor]

But since the difficulty is something I will only need to deal with more and more, there's no reason to NOT do unshackled 5 over 4

[languid adder]

I would refer to this in that case, stat increase vs reward increase.

There is zero reason to unshackle, so, i dont need an incentivise to shackle, since there is no point in not doing it.

Am i overlooking something?

[sinful vapor]

The reason to unshackle is to be faster

Faster content for less rewards

[languid adder]

85% HP alone for a third of a level of proof drops is not faster, at all

[sinful vapor]

Personal preference

[languid adder]

I dont see a preference, i see a good option and a bad option. Needing twice the to kill a raid for a tofal potential loot increase of about 5-10%.

[sinful vapor]

That's your personal opinion lol

[short osprey]

The extra time it will take for Agony 9's ~150% stats is very much not worth it for only an extra 0.46% proofs

[languid adder]

Thats why i dont understand what incentivise we need to shackle, if there is none to unshackle.

[languid adder]

What...?

[sinful vapor]

Then shackle

[languid adder]

Data and basic logic is not my personal opinion.

[sinful vapor]

"I see a bad option and a good option" is your opinion

[storm wadi]

Personally, at this point unshackled is marginally faster than shackled for torment and despair it's not even noticeable

[short osprey]

Yes but I think the issue that Rhayvhenn is trying to explain is that we keep hearing the term "then there is no incentive to shackle" but as of right now, there is currently no real choice besides to shackle once you get past say level 6-7

[sinful vapor]

Sure. I've been seeing the incentive to shackle now that I'm at lvl 5 on three paths

I think it will just come down to people's preferences

My AL0 gilga just cleared a mel5 boss horde without much trouble; I wish that earned more rewards

I think that's worth looking at, sort of the AL slider idea/giving more rewards to those below the AL target

Currently, shackled rewards seem fine

Just my perspective as AL50, being shackled to AL14 is not horrendous

[languid adder]

What?
So stating rates is an opinion?
Im so confused.

[sinful vapor]

It's not confusing to say that qualifiers like "good" and "bad" are opinions

[short osprey]

I can see that, but coming from an AL110 shackling to AL14 feels really shitty

[raven bane]

Imo I still do tower and dungeon mostly unshackled. Others I run shackled.

[languid adder]

Exactly thats the point i am trying to make, thank you.

I dont see a concern... i just try to understand the concern, but i dont get any real counterpoints.

[sinful vapor]

Then stay unshackled for as long as it takes to not feel that way

What are shackles at ang9

I have no concern with existing shackled rates, but I hope we can reward those that run decently below shackled targets

[raven bane]

Thinking break even points with speed/reward is likely in the mid teens

[short osprey]

Which is what I'm doing, but the problem is to get to my level of anguish for AL110 is like 26 or something, I'd fine with shackles if I didn't have to play with them for so long

[languid adder]

Thats the neat part, there is no universe in which you reach your anguish level before 2026 if you dont shackle, if youre high AL - or you basically just stick to 4 as the increase is basically non-existant, as proven in my screens above.

Im talking about HIGH AL.
100+.
We have a 95% reward reduction cap most people will never see.

There is no universe in which i see unshackled as a good choice.

[harsh geyser]

I still shackle towers, because GS is really bad at towers the speed hit is still not worth the proof gain, in terms of total proofs/time.
Shackled monuments are fun though, and shackled despair is super easy.

[short osprey]

I've been averaging like 8-10 towers a day for over a week now, and I'm really only just getting half way to my anguish level for towers...

[sinful vapor]

And that is why it is your opinion

You don't see it

Others may

[harsh geyser]

I kinda want to vent about GS re: ang2.0, but I think most people don't know or care much about highly ascended GS experience 😅
It's mostly a 'starter class' for most players, and they can switch over to deity or something actually good later on.

[languid adder]

That part i see, but denouncing all the other points and data to opinions is straight up insulting.

[sinful vapor]

I'm not denouncing anything

I'm presenting my opinions as well

[short osprey]

The thing is it's not an option, it's just an actual fact that your proofs/min will be drastically lower once you get to or past level 7 if you play unshackled vs if you stay at level 4, I understand not wanting unshackled to give the same rewards, but I feel the cap of -95% is a little much and should be maybe lowered to something slightly more reasonable

As for what that number should be I have no clue, would need to look at a bunch of different rates/math which I can't do at this moment 😅

[languid adder]

Basically that was my entire argument, expect i tried to gather data inbefore, because im tired of getting picked at and dennounced when i present something x3

Thank you.

[vocal basalt]

Opinion:
Since i cant just keep doing dgs back to back (since theres a cooldown and I wont play for huge amounts of time at once in the weekdays) i prefer to go shackled since i get more rewards while not having a noticeable effect on clear time
That is specially true for towers since I can see a huge boost for shards on top of them having a 24h cooldown
Lastly i like that im not mindlessly playing most content anymore and i'm enjoying the game

[sinful vapor]

Rhayvenn, you just make very definitive statements

[sinful vapor]

The rates of reward decrease per unshackled AL might be too steep, the AL cap might be too low for some of the higher levels, that's all fair

Or it might be fine and we should implement SHECKLES

[short osprey]

Might try and crunch some numbers if I have some more free time later to see if there is a rate that would still allow shackles to overall be more beneficial, but allow players who wish to play unshackled more of a reason to push past 4/5/6 etc

[sinful vapor]

Yeah the one thing they wanna avoid is creating unshackled meta bc it's too rewarding

That's why sheckles seem to make sense to me

[languid adder]

I know! Beeing concrete in your statements leaves less room for interpretation makes discussing easier IMO.
Im down beeing corrected, and called out, also revoking the wrong.
Im not down beeing vague, i want a conversation to lead somewhere.

But i appreciate you saying that. ^^

[languid adder]

Do you think we need an incentivise to play shackled with current unshackled rates?
In regards to a "fast pass" coulding be exploited wirh current rates?

[sinful vapor]

You could say these are incentives to shackle