Anguish Live Feedback

[sinful vapor]

Heretic just can't go as deep as deity, not even close

Granted I'm not as efficient, but still

Full farm gear

[left mauve]

not saying otherwise

Also dont do hard endless

scaling is out if hand when doing so

[snow sage]

Hi

[fierce cedar]

I hope the different anguish paths mean good gear get spread around a little more too in the future

(instead of concentrated in raid loot)

also, gaddamn, im doing something wrong, best i ever get was like 20mil

i cannot stand being chained into endless and the kudaranai class swapping setup

[languid adder]

Yeah would also love to see the build and where the numbers come from.
I am try hard, and i am not getting nowhere close as DARA at 100

[grave fulcrum]

Are you only making it to like floor 150 or something. Because 200 is easily 60m orns 400 easily 100m orns (give or take I had 23/30 zerk enemies in a row for my pb in endless) and it's super easy to get depth on deity ara because I was still 0ing out redlined realms just not zerk bosses and a few normal enemies who dodged while I was building apex back up

Mind you I'm double famed bog double 25% accessories (they dont give anything else) then I run a lost helm and darkest garb

[fierce cedar]

1. d ara still locked, last one
2. like 200-250 unless i fall asleep on my phone
3. i fall asleep on my phone doing endless

[grave fulcrum]

And my best def/res boots (arisen jolly stockings

Watch Netflix or something while your running I use to be the same

[fierce cedar]

like, i get it, its easy if you stack asc and cheese it w/ viper-whatever

but also i dont have those or want to do it

[grave fulcrum]

Asc?

[fierce cedar]

ascension

[grave fulcrum]

Oh I'm only Al 42

[fierce cedar]

im less than half

[grave fulcrum]

You should be able to get as far as I do because I'm unlucky AF

Pretty sure Al 25ish my realm runs we're getting 300 plus

And if you have rend epee then depth should be easier

Since I stop doing damage to zerk t10 bosses around 380 (going from 300k a hit non crit to 38k crit on them)

With m1= 2.4 I think

[fierce cedar]

i dont have BoF

lol.

stupid huh?

[grave fulcrum]

Get it that's why you're struggling for depth and get d.ara for easier endless

[fierce cedar]

guess so

[short osprey]

You don't need endless to get tons of Orn's, it's just the most efficient way to farm them, I never even touched endless myself until AL50ish

[fierce cedar]

for me I also dont need orns, just better gear

but i guess thats why i dont know how to get 100m/hour or whatever

[short osprey]

Yeah gear is the biggest part, and imo it's always gear > ALs

[pearl mango]

Chat whats wrong with my mana

[full peak]

I'm posting numbers, builds and sometimes videos on my youtube everytime I break the roof...

[harsh geyser]

you appear to have equipped the Deity class

[full peak]

I would still diversify the numbers somehow by level itself. Sinilar to exp curve. 100 mil for 1000 shard is way too much for 225. It is ok for low AL250.

[languid adder]

And i surely knew you had a youtube...

[full peak]

Links are in Deity sheet as examples for builds 😛

[plush nimbus]

Hi !
I love the new anguish system for now, it's new, fresh, fun 💜
But, there are currently some huge balance issues, mainly with raids, with people exploiting it like crazy for insane amount of everything (currencies ➡️ mats = Al / + ➡️ insane amount of everything available from shop) not related to real challenge, but pure cheese. I hope it will get fixed really soon... As it's a bit frustrating for people who waited for anguish 2.0 - and don't want to jump into cheese - in hope for something a bit more balanced and fair, and a bit sad for the game in general IMHO.

[nocturne night]

If you're going to jump through hoops and not mention what the cheese is, how do you expect people to be able to fix that? :p

Do you just mean Stasis?

Do you mean the World-Loadout-Pet-Act-Rate?

[plush nimbus]

I mean the ability to farm currencies like crazy, using a mix of debatable things :

• alt farming for scroll farming ++++
• ability to drop currencies ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ via all raids, including trash ones, and I should say especially via trash one
• add some stasis and so on on top of it and BANG

There are people with guild lvl 25+, could someone tell what amount of currencies it means ?
Then translate this number into demon tool, or cort, or anything needed to "progress" in this game and the issue is big

[nocturne night]

None of that is cheese though?

[plush nimbus]

It's absolute cheese

[nocturne night]

Also to be fair, the people with guild level 25+ got there before it was nerfed

[plush nimbus]

And if it don't get fixed, it will be chaos during Ragnarok, with everyone aware of this issue spamming insane amount of T8 scrolls for insane amount of everything.

[nocturne night]

There were two things going on:

1. The rewards were too large (they got toned down)
2. There was a bug that allowed you to kill Raids while unshackled for full rewards

[raven bane]

I dunno about cheese, but I'm currently level 19 and spent about 2k scrolls so far, considering i've been saving for a long time. Have to consider what lower level players will need to do to progress.

[nocturne night]

Ragnarok's gonna be fun

[plush nimbus]

It's gonna be the issue we have currently, but bigger

[nocturne night]

t8 Jormie will be absolutely badonkers good for grinding

[plush nimbus]

It will be ridiculous

[plush nimbus]

That's always this argument. On the other hand, you also have to consider it just means the "meta" will be to farm thousands and thousands T8 Jorm

That's just such a big unbalance it will be the same kind of issue we had on anguish 1, and anguish 2.0 was also supposed to clear - partly - some cheese. And this is just huge cheese

[short osprey]

I think your definition of "cheese" is vastly different from majority of others

[plush nimbus]

Maybe

[raven bane]

Yeah I think it will definitely be the meta, I don't see it as that much of an issue though, compared to other scroll generative methods, for the event focused on raiding.

From my perspective, the raiding portion of anguish has felt like the most fun part of it, not even account for rewards.

[plush nimbus]

But the thing is, when people will understand how unbalanced it is, part of the community will jump even more into it until it get fixed, some just won't know and will be frustrated when they will understand they just miss the cheese, and some will know but won't jump into it in hope for a fix

[plush nimbus]

Mind sharing the currencies you used to reach level 19?

• the one you used on shpp

Shop

[raven bane]

Approx 400 Rift Distrotions, 900 summoning scrolls (not counting those gained during/from yeti), 200 Fey Ragnorak scrolls, 50 Windtamers all just went straight into leveling except Id say around 600 i spent on shop tools.

[plush nimbus]

Sorry I mean the agony proof to reach level 19

[short osprey]

I mean Im currently guild level 26, Agony is not really a must

[raven bane]

oh to reach 20 is 2050 so like 20k?

[plush nimbus]

I m talking about the agony proof droped

[nocturne night]

I don't disagree with your concerns goudine, I'm just struggling to think of how you'd fix the issue, really.

If you make undear-your-tier-raids drop less/no proofs, you make scroll dropping a miserable experience in terms of regular scroll drops. So many raids just don't spawn at your tier. Also as it stands, the current system adds a fun dichtomy of "Low tier raids are good for proofs but bad for drops, but high tier raids are bad for proofs and good for drops"

You can't fix the alt problem. That's just... not a thing

[plush nimbus]

And do you used some agony proof to buy something else on shop ?

[nocturne night]

Increasing T8 Jormie's scroll's cost could alleviate the issue, but that's not really the root of the problem is it?

[short osprey]

(these are just numbers since the most recent changes)

[raven bane]

about 500-600 just for some crucibles i think

[plush nimbus]

That's no where near what someone could expect from spamming T8 rag for exemple in a few days

[nocturne night]

Fwiw t8 Jormie does have an enormous health pool

It's a very cheap scroll to acquire, but it's much harder to clear than moondrops

[nocturne night]

Also, this.
What fix would you propose?

[plush nimbus]

It's not like you missed some people spamming high level raids much more impressive than T8 jorms in a blink with some builds

[plush nimbus]

First, remove proof from lower tier raids - except some particular T9 event raids wich are seen are same strenght as T10 one
To avoid issue with summoning lower tier, add an option "T10 only" (or proofable only uhuh)

Is one of the option to reduce the current issue

[nocturne night]

Orna's not half term when it comes to drops.
It can't be "some T9s"
It's either all or none

Also a T10-only option is ridiculously insane outside of Anguish

[plush nimbus]

Then I vote for none

[nocturne night]

That concentrates the pool by way too much

[plush nimbus]

There are some way to "counter" this. But some ideas around it/or like reducing drastically proof from lower tier, or a mix. It's not like the current thing is the "best" for the game, and if the fix isn't perfect, I can't see a world where the current version is sane

[short osprey]

So go back to making the lower tier raids useless once again? I'd rather see some sort of cost increase for spending proofs of Agony instead

[plush nimbus]

Cost increase will maybe just fix the issue for player ready to jump into the cheese while being painful for more "regular" players I guess

That being said, I don't want to be too much involved into balance issue once again. I m happy I had the opportunity to share this big issue - IMHO -, as we re talking about just something allowing to remove challenge from an update supposed to be more challenge = more progress

If farming 2k T8 Jorm translate into 40k cort, I think it's fair to say there's maybe something to consider about this path

Thank you all !

[sinful vapor]

Decrease proof gain from lower tier raids

Slightly increase from higher tier raids

Only allow proof gain from raids two tiers below you

(This would hurt stuff like cerus scrolls that can drop t6 raids, but does that really matter?)

[tacit ridge]

Absolutely disagree. If they’re scaling with anguish, they should still drop proofs. I’d almost argue for the opposite when it comes to torment proofs: every monster in towers should drop proofs. They’re all scaled to t10 after all

If the lower tier raids just go back to being useless, then we need an option to remove them from the pool

[plush nimbus]

That's one of the fix I suggested

[tacit ridge]

2k raids for 40k cort is a HUGE time investment lol

People already think Ang 2.0 is too slow and we want to nerf agony even further? Meanwhile players are still in 1.0 making much faster progress towards ALs

The only thing I agree with is that anguished raids need to be immune to stasis

[plush nimbus]

Translate into other path. For your information, cort is my 2cnd most asked mat, and I needed 226k for AL 198 before removing everything. Spamming 2k T8 raids is absolutely nothing compared to what you have to do in other path to reach it via currencies.
Dungeons ? Even if - let's say - you reach the 100 proof drop and spam dungeon in 2 minutes. It's 30 cort/dungeons, meaning 1200+ dungeons.
Is this realistic for you to say it's as painful to kill 2k trash raids compared to those 1200 T10 with insane penalties dungeons. I truly don't think so.

[grave fulcrum]

Tbh lower tier raids dropping less proofs or no proofs would kill raiding for a ton of people as scrolls are finite and anguish makes raids more difficult. Removing lower tier raids from the summon pool would make Mori more likely as well as making finesse and other event t10 raids more likely which would cause a major major issue. Right now the only valid thing from my view you've said is t8 jorm and rift scrolls (craftable scrolls in general) offer more profit once you have a set of quality gear already. So make the draw back craftable raids that are under t10 don't drop proofs. Still allowing event raids and lower tier raids to drop proofs balancing and stoping the abuse of a couple mechanics while holding the system to a manageable system

[tacit ridge]

2min per dungeon is 2400 minutes. You won’t farm and clear 2k t8 anguished jorms much faster than that, the HP pool is HUGE

Not to mention how many proofs you’ll have to “waste” leveling the anguish level up

[plush nimbus]

No worries, you most likely won't farm dungeons in 2 minutes when you ll reach 100% currencie drop rate 😅

[nocturne night]

By the way, where did you get the 2k Jormies = 40k cort from?

[plush nimbus]

There are people with 25+ raids guild level. Best for dungoens is probably around 15/15+.

[nocturne night]

Because that comparison makes it sound like you're getting on average 21 proofs per jormungandr

[plush nimbus]

From spamming raids giving insane amount of currencies.

[plush nimbus]

Isn't it close to it ?

[tacit ridge]

Isn’t 15 the cap?

[nocturne night]

I don't know, I'm not Agony level 25

[tacit ridge]

The path has been nerfed since

[nocturne night]

But from Sirith's findings at least, at Agony 6, that's like an average of 8 proofs

[plush nimbus]

And doesn't it still feel too much ? Even if 15 from T8 raids ?
I get no cort if I run T8 dungeons !

[tacit ridge]

15 is the absolute ceiling, you’re not getting it every raid lol

[nocturne night]

With an average of 8 proofs, and having to be shackled at Anguish 6, which for the record puts you at Ascension Level 18, and it also doubles the raid's stats

So a t8 jormie has 10 million health, and you're at ascension 18

That, personally, feels like a lot of effort for 8 proofs

[plush nimbus]

Then it's maybe - a bit - less an issue 🤷🏻‍♂️

[nocturne night]

Genuine question goudine:

[plush nimbus]

Yes ?

[nocturne night]

Is this feedback coming from speculation, or is it coming from experience?

Have you gone up the Agony path to experience it yourself?

Or are you just seeing other people

[plush nimbus]

I stoped this sorcery at 8 I guess

[vocal basalt]

Well agony does look like the odd one out

Since ppl are already 20+

[plush nimbus]

So I tested it. And I also tested - way more - dungeons. And it clearly, for now, feel waaaaay too cheesable IMHO

[vocal basalt]

Ive seen one melancholy 14, and he's a dg machine

[tacit ridge]

Is it cheesable? Or is it just more profitable? Is it faster than Ang 1.0 dungeons? Because it really doesn’t look like it, while also being much harder

Maybe the other paths are the issue?

[plush nimbus]

I don't think it's cheesable like raids are. I love dungoens, I farmed a bit less than usual, but still, it's a ton of dungeons to reach my 15 while not spending currencies on anything else than leveling guild.

[tacit ridge]

I’m talking in comparison to Anguish 1.0 dungeons. I could literally clear those buffless in 90sec and get a ton of proofs

So, the issue here is you feel your dungeon path is less worth it than the raid path?

[plush nimbus]

And tbh, I don't think the 25+ raid player played more than me to reach it. It's just dungeons have a minimum time to complete it and you can't do anything about it : you have to spend time going from one room to another, and you can't have proof from lower dungeons.
Raids : one screen, spam

[tacit ridge]

Keep in mind, the people with higher agony levels either farmed them when the rates were higher, or have been farming raids non stop since 2.0 released (I can attest Geppu is been doing that for example)

[plush nimbus]

With some methods, it's absolutely not comparable

[plush nimbus]

I farmed thousands dungeons

[tacit ridge]

I think you are very much overreacting because of the inflated levels caused by the earlier rates.

Try reaching 25+ with the current rates

Also dungeons are an infinite resource, raids aren’t. It’s to be expected that you can level them faster on release, since people have a ton of scrolls stocked up, but that’ll eventually plateau

Meanwhile dungeon availability is constant

[plush nimbus]

Maybe you re right. But it's me annoyed with unbalance issues. It doesn't mean the issue is not here. I truly hope I m wrong.

[plush nimbus]

In a world when it's duable to farm thousands scrolls easely. It is to me an issue. I m not happy seing this as the new meta for this update. But again, won't complain more than what I just did - I hope - and will go back having fun with this new really nice update. I just hope it will be controled, to avoid what may be a big unbalance.

Thank you all for the talk ! 💜🎉

[grave fulcrum]

Please keep in mind that raids use to give about 2x the anguish proofs they do now

[raven bane]

At 19 I think the raids drop average around 15-16 proofs, highest I've seen is a 22. I think it feels about right now, hard to farm and then complete 2k scrolls, will it be easier during ragnorak, yeah. But there are events that buff all styles of play

[tacit ridge]

I think we should remove Medusa since it makes dungeons too profitable while it’s available

[harsh geyser]

Agony definitely feels like the most rewarding path. Easiest in terms of player time to get the highest levels compared to towering/dungeoning/world farming, including time spent gathering scrolls. Plus people already have huge stockpiles of scrolls from back in the day to burn through.

I still don't know why T8 and T9 raids give full proof rate, meanwhile every other path is hunting down T10s to the best of their ability and getting zero from T8/T9. Feels like penalizing T8/T9 raids and improving T8/T9 mobs and bosses would balance the paths out and make it consistent across all the paths.

Certainly wouldn't say that a T8 raid is on the same level of difficulty as a T10 raid. They're not free by any means, but neither is an e.g. immortal lord.

[pearl mango]

I mean essentially the problem is that ppl grind too much ig lol

This doesnt apply to the average player cuz he wont farm 2k+jorms

But many ppl would

[grave fulcrum]

Average player won't grind more than 500 during the entire event

[pearl mango]

Thats what im saying

Average player also wont be able to clear them in a week

Not even two

Now make them anguished

Even more hp

[grave fulcrum]

Unless their goal is grind 2k scrolls while event is on and kill over the next several months

[pearl mango]

Which then doesnt sound like OP

Ppl say agony is the most rewarding but my main proof to buy tools is melanchy and despair

Quite easy to grind

[grave fulcrum]

I mean tbh the only op part is people who grinding 500 of every craftable scrolls over the last year and stoped grinding it because they got what they wanted

Let's make event scrolls require proofs to become anguished kekw

[pearl mango]

Crazy

[grave fulcrum]

I'm talking craftable only

[pearl mango]

So i have to anguish my 300hippos to even do them

Monkey

I dont even wanna do half of them

🦛

[grave fulcrum]

Lmfao maybe only under t10s?

[plush nimbus]

As always, perfectly said !

[plush nimbus]

Problem is it's not several month but several days

[jaunty mist]

I mean if you're okay with throwing lower level players under the bus

[grave fulcrum]

Again we do not need to balance around people who no life the game

Average player does not have 10 hrs a day to grind raids

[jaunty mist]

if you and your circle can cheese raids, it's not representative sample of the playerbase

[grave fulcrum]

Let's take a look at the average amount of scrolls gained per Ragnarok event

Or more specifically runes

If we find this to be to much nerf that

Rather than proofs gained

I personally hate when companies balance things around no lifers

[jaunty mist]

that's a reason I quit the last game I played before orna

the issue itself is not the path of agony it's how far you can get with intense grind, and if you guys really think it's a problem then you should be pushing against it and not penalize lower level players

[pearl mango]

Lets see them complaining after that

Lol

[raven bane]

A lot of t8 raids, including the one in question t8 Jorg, take longer than many t9-10 raids. Would really make grinding scrolls awful if it was changed.

[tacit ridge]

Patch notes that instantly kill a game:

• you can now only kill 10 raids/day
• you can now only clear 20 dungeons/day

[pearl mango]

Aday

[raven bane]

This effectively makes raids into a 'daily' which generally suck

[dim jacinth]

limiting activities per day isnt a very ideal solution, see how players feel about the fish cap

[pearl mango]

I mean the fact ppl can grind raids 24/7 if they have the scrolls is the reason some ppl are ang25already

Issue is not agony

Its the hardcore players

[raven bane]

Yeah but its a finite resource, just people have been saving for years for this, don't see how its any different than the people running 100 dungeons a day and are already 12+ in melancholy

[tacit ridge]

How is that an issue? If you grind more you’re higher level, that’s how any mmo works?

[pearl mango]

Im just saying that since some ppl been complaining that non t10raids are op for proofs or wtv

When proof gain is pretty balanced

[raven bane]

A guy in my kingdom is already melancholy 16 and I'm pretty sure hes been playing unshackled.

[jaunty mist]

It's not an issue, the issue is trying to use the hard grind argument to nerf lower level players

[harsh geyser]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Anguish is already an endgame thing, not for everyone. Increasing or decreasing proof rates doesn't materially change the grind.

And certainly when we're talking about path v. path comparisons, how is that 'anti-new player'?

[jaunty mist]

Early t10 is smushed in the same category as lvl 250 al 100+ to you?

[raven bane]

LETS BE CLEAR Anguish is for noobs until at least anguish 30

[grave fulcrum]

It's endgame to an extent casual players still get to endgame content to partake in they just take it at their own pace so balancing it so harshly that t9- raids don't give proofs or give reduced proofs hurts players who don't have as much time as the people who no life the game as if it's a full time job with overtime benefits

[tacit ridge]

I’ll take killing arisen balin 50 times over T8 jorm any day

[grave fulcrum]

Endgame content being balanced around the average player means everyone can get into the content and enjoy it at their own pace but anyone who wants to speed run it and push through content as fast as possible can do so with the only benefit being they pushes as far as they could

The amount of time spent will be the same regardless because it's time spent in that content

But if you make it extremely slow to balance for the no lifers

Then the casuals get bored and decide the games not worth it

[harsh geyser]

... It's an infinite grind. Unlike ang1.0, there's no upper limit/cap, so while new players are still working on ang5 or ang10, those scary no-life sweat grinders will be at like ang25 or ang30 🤷‍♂️

Just sounds like a screed with no point.

[grave fulcrum]

There kinda is Ang 25 soft cap Ang 50 becomes closer to not being possible without another 100al over recommended

And that's fine

But if you balance around the no lifers

They will get to a point where the content isn't complete able without being unshackled + a ton more als

That's gonna happen regardless

But players who don't spend that much time a week on the game

Will be held back to the extent that the grind for higher anguish will become to much and they'll quit

[plush nimbus]

Well, you can also say if they jump into the cheese the will have the AL for it. Removing unbalance doesn't seem that bad for the game IMHO

[grave fulcrum]

You see it all the time with t9-11

Plus I'd like to see you grind 20 anguish lvls on the current agony system

Or at least the proofs

To get that many

[plush nimbus]

And having maybe one path better than other won't prevent those players you re talking about (the one with a life I guess to keep your words) to leave after trying to go straight for the maybe too good point.

[grave fulcrum]

You'd see that the previous buffs proofs were too much

[plush nimbus]

Please don't make it a challenge. Thing is, for now, this is the easiest guild to ⬆️ and it remains even after the change

[jaunty mist]

its the only guild with 4 ways to level up too

[grave fulcrum]

That the current proofs are reasonable for time spent (grind x scrolls kill x raids up anguish level and repeat)

[grave fulcrum]

Also are you saying that we need to nerf party world farm?

[tacit ridge]

So, what guild is at a good speed then? Despair?

[grave fulcrum]

Tbh dungeons/towers are reasonable

Dispair I haven't tested since update

[raven bane]

Despair seems pretty good actually but I havent done too much of it

[tacit ridge]

I find towers to be super slow. A lot of enemies are sub t10 and therefore useless for leveling it up, but still needed for shards. Doesn’t make much sense to me when the monsters are scaled up to t10

[jaunty mist]

Also there are maaaany other many options to nerf agony in a way that it doesnt affect lower level players, why not unlink the rewards to mats?

[grave fulcrum]

Agony pre update was to low then got over buffed and adjusted to a 'this feels efficient and that my time was spent well'

[harsh geyser]

imo

despair is still a bit too slow (and worse, kinda boring/needs more interaction)
melancholy feels alright
torment feels alright
agony is a bit too fast (and that's before any "easy" raiding events like moondrops or jorms)

My expectation is that it'll take ~months before I'm done leveling the paths and instead focusing on whatever path levels I end up at (and slowly trying to push them upward/using the guild shop more).

[plush nimbus]

Just killed a fey Yeti on anguish 4 to test. 10 proofs. 10 seconds

[tacit ridge]

Nice sample test

Now kill another and get 1 proof and use that

[jaunty mist]

xd

[plush nimbus]

Make it 4 proof, add the idea it could be even lower tier. And how the hell is this balanced with other path

[grave fulcrum]

Proof please make sure you're shackled and give a set of 10 raids to give a proofs per raid instead of a lucky drop at max proofs

[jaunty mist]

well we wont know unless youa ctually do an analysis

and not a single instance event

[tacit ridge]

T9 trev is harder than most t10 raids. Tier isn’t indicative of difficulty

[plush nimbus]

Anguish 4 = no shackle...

[harsh geyser]

it's not 1:1, but it's also not immaterial. (compare second, third, final horsemen)

or as in the topic brought up today, compare jorm to fey jorm

[grave fulcrum]

Exactly go shackle yourself anguish 5 otherwise it doesn't matter what you make the proof count you'll see people clearing raids just as fast

[plush nimbus]

But you can for now focus on farming easy scrolls. All other path are not even close, even taking into account the time spent to farm those scrolls.

[tacit ridge]

Most people will be using scrolls for event summons though, lowering the amount of “easy” t9 raids. And if they don’t, they lower their event gains

[grave fulcrum]

You spent in reality 90 seconds to get well say you got lucky 5 scrolls

You then spent 50 seconds killing all 5

[tacit ridge]

Jorm is comparable to Medusa in dungeons though. It’s one event, not really worth changing the whole system for it

[pearl mango]

If its an infinite grind

Why make raids give less

Whats gonna change

If its infinite

[harsh geyser]

why make them give more? if it's infinite 😛

My argument was path v. path comparisons.

[grave fulcrum]

Iirc you get an average of 6 or 7 proofs per raid

At anguish 3

[pearl mango]

Melanchy and despair as of currently give similair numbers of proofs per hour

[jaunty mist]

better yet, hard cap it earlier

[pearl mango]

I got to level 4despair in 5hours wasnt that hard tbh

Thats before the buff

[raven bane]

I dont think all paths need to be equivalent: Agony - Costs Summon Scorll, Towers- Tower shards are a big part of the reward. and CD heavily limits. These are reasons to make the actual proof value distinct. Dungeons and Despair are probably soem of the most spammable content in game with no real limiting factor.

[pearl mango]

For proofs

[plush nimbus]

Well, absolutely not

[plush nimbus]

I agree it should not give exact same. But having cheese on some is maybe an issue

[pearl mango]

Okay lets calculate it like this

Ang 15 i get 8-16proofs per raid solo
I can do around 60an hour
Lets average it to 12
12x60 720proofs an hour

How many proofs you gain from melanchy proofs can you get

From melanchy 15

1straight hour of dungeons

With good wayvessels

[raven bane]

I don't consider the ability to spend time during an event to spam scrolls any more ' cheese' than events that put extra t10 in dungeons/towers

[plush nimbus]

I will tell you. That's a bit less than 10, and you won't farm 72 in an hour

[harsh geyser]

it's like 5-10 per dungeon, at best 2 minutes per dungeon, so something like 150-300 melancholies (plus scroll drops).

[pearl mango]

Bgs?

I get way more from battlegrounds at ang5

[plush nimbus]

You maybe should consider it, as the already existing ⬆️⬆️⬆️ become insane

[harsh geyser]

If you have infinite battlegrounds then you can probably get up to 500+ melancholies per hour, but people typically don't have infinite battlegrounds 😅 They're better than horde normal for sure, but something like 2x better.

[pearl mango]

Well since this is a balance patch for both games

I have 3 bgs in hoa

[plush nimbus]

I m at 15. It took me thousands dungeons. It's less than 10 average. And it's not as easy as T8 Jorm...

[pearl mango]

I can do with party

[jaunty mist]

can use teh same argument, if you hard grind... but people typically dont hard grind

[pearl mango]

So melanchy is similair to agony

To me

[harsh geyser]

Given this is the Orna discord and not the HoA discord -- perhaps HoA can have different balancing numbers than Orna.

[raven bane]

Theres a difference between 'cheese' and 'meta'

[pearl mango]

... You think it wont take 2000anguished t8jorms to get to 15

[grave fulcrum]

Again as I stated in the ol discord Medusa is t10 boss finesse has 1 t10 enemy in world farm torment is easily grinded when there's 2-3 event enemies at t10 in monuments your "cheese happens many times throughout different content. Rift fall has 3t10 enemies you can run in normals and you can run in monuments and you can world farm.

[pearl mango]

Not sure if theres any anguish live feedback there

[plush nimbus]

Yes, the difference is how much better a way is compared to another, and according to what is duable, to me we re on the cheese

[pearl mango]

And most patches gets decided from here

[spiral goblet]

But they still shouldn't be balanced the same

[jaunty mist]

cheese for who?

[pearl mango]

I mean i can argue you can easily do 30dgs an hour with wayvessels so it takes you 10hours of dgs a day for 5days to reach 15

Which is the same as agony

[raven bane]

There will be 'meta' times to farm towers and dungeons as well.

[pearl mango]

Agony takes hours of raiding

[jaunty mist]

not counting hours to get the scrolls

[pearl mango]

Yep that too

[spiral goblet]

My 3k moondrops say different

[plush nimbus]

Let's take into account one thing : you won't farm boss on high anguish dungeons for optimal proof farm. It's just insanely hard, that's why most people with "high" anguish dungeons farm mobs

[spiral goblet]

Which i also get dungeon proofs while acquiring stuff for agony

[jaunty mist]

ask nf to remove them then :v

[plush nimbus]

Do it on high anguish 😅

[harsh geyser]

I think it's important that path rates get somewhat balanced as the baseline, and don't have any problem with some events making it harder/easier to path grind during the event. 🤷‍♂️

And fwiw I don't think it's crazily off (it's not like agony is 10x faster), just a little off (it's all in the 2-3x range between high and low).

[tacit ridge]

Can you provide actual numbers to that effect? All I’m seeing is you say how much you make on dungeons while not providing actual data for agony

[jaunty mist]

hoarded things before changes are unproductive

[pearl mango]

Hm?

[jaunty mist]

otherwise I would get the tons of territory rewards

I worked before conqeurors

[raven bane]

Even with moondrops theres a defined cost of missing out on hyperion, I know I'm not making that tradeoff most of the time

[spiral goblet]

This still stands true regardless of pre hoarded

[jaunty mist]

just like t8 jorms

[plush nimbus]

You won't farm bosses on high anguish for optimal proof farm

[jaunty mist]

most ppl would prefer t10 jorms

[grave fulcrum]

Okay a cheese is using stasis to get to floor 2k in endless a cheese is breaking the games intended gameplay style. For example alt scrolls for anguish would be concidered a cheese but you know what isn't a cheese. Grinding 2000 of a single scroll in the way the scroll is intended to be farmed and deciding you don't need fey jorm for gear so it's better to use your materials for the lower tier raids

[pearl mango]

I wont farm raids at high anguish either

Whats your point

[raven bane]

We're all working from a position of people farming huge stacks of scrolls since the announcement of 2.0 over a year ago, this will not be the case for a large volume of players

[dim jacinth]

You're playing HoA so you might not be aware but wayvessels do have a one hour cooldown. you can't just spam different spots, 30dgs isn't all that realistic imo

[plush nimbus]

Unless it gives you insane amount of proof compared to other path while removing the challenge

[jaunty mist]

that the niche 100+ al players would

[tacit ridge]

Yea, people are forgetting that going all in on t8 jorm also means forfeiting fey jorm gear. That’s a hefty trade off

[pearl mango]

My friend zeir have 11-13dgs beside his house and he shares his wayvessel all day from 5 different accounts

[raven bane]

I've ran hundreds of UP this month just to try and stem my scroll consumption

[plush nimbus]

T8 raids isn't the same as T11 dungeons in term of challenge

[tacit ridge]

Especially if you want anguished versions

[tacit ridge]

T8 jorm is harder than t11 dungeons

[pearl mango]

Do an anguish 15 t8jorm and tell me how long it takes

Probably the same as the dungeon

Also accounting that the average player will be doing raids way slower

[plush nimbus]

I truly don't think so, considering there are already build to kill way harder raids

[pearl mango]

Imo? Remove stasis from the game

Easy solve

Raids will take longer

[tacit ridge]

You might want to go try some shackled raids. I think that might change your mind

[pearl mango]

No cheese

I do my raids without stasis either way

[plush nimbus]

Thing is comparaison : if it's balanced that's all good, if it's not then it may need a fix. It's not like it's supposed to be perfectly balanced after 2 weeks live. That's mainly just it

[pearl mango]

Proof gain/raids difficulty ratio is balanced tho

[jaunty mist]

Balance is 1 thing, building an argument on balance with the main focus being grind intensive 100+ al players is another

[plush nimbus]

It's absolutely not unrealistic to farm thousands T8 Jorm in a few days, wich translate into huge amount of proof no other path can compare.

[pearl mango]

... Whos doing that

[tacit ridge]

Prove it with data

[pearl mango]

Im pretty sure i wont

[jaunty mist]

unlink proofs to progress related rewards

[tacit ridge]

This is just “I think so”

[grave fulcrum]

Am I breaking the intended way to play the game. Eg am I killing them all at Ang 1. am I using alts to get x amount of raids to craft the scroll. I've also given you the solution to the concern. Quite literally make scrolls you craft need to be your tier to be anguished (this is a slight change but same concept) if you're t8 sure fey jorm can be grinded for proofs but if you're t10 then you shouldn't be able to spend less mats to grind anguish raids. I get your concern and if it's truly an issue aka all the average players suddenly gain more proofs than what it would normally be possible adjust that specific area rather than adjusting the entire raid pool

[pearl mango]

I can do 30dgs an hour all day and get melanchy 15 in 4days

Thats what your saying

[tacit ridge]

We get it, you enjoy dungeons. Doesn’t mean they need to be the end all be all meta like they’ve been for years now

[harsh geyser]

I think it's a good topic to discuss ahead of time.

Nobody wants to be in the position where jorm or moondrops happens, people get 1000s of relatively easy agony proofs, and then it's spilled milk. Worse, even if the right thing is to reduce the proof rate, people will argue that it can't happen because "other people" already got to take advantage.

[grave fulcrum]

Can you show me you doing this without using a singular alt ?

[plush nimbus]

Maybe the 1000+ I farmed in a few days, while not being alt player, and the tons of screen seen.
It's not like everyone will do it, but if it's unbalanced, it tend to make player going into it as it's way less challenging than anything else.
But if I have to "proove" my point we ll see in July, that's ok.

[plush nimbus]

I ve never and never will use alt farming

[pearl mango]

So if someone can do 1000raids in a day

You should nerf for everyone

[tacit ridge]

That’s not data. Data is hard numbers from raids and dungeons and comparing them side to side

[pearl mango]

Bad logic

He doesnt have infinite raids

[tacit ridge]

There’s no methodology in what you’re saying, just gut feeling

[grave fulcrum]

How many hrs did this take did you spend more than 10 hrs that entire week grinding 1000 scrolls?

[plush nimbus]

That's exactly what I would like to avoid.

[harsh geyser]

Is your position that agony is fine, and jorm/etc. will be fine?
Have you engaged with the other three paths yet?

[jaunty mist]

the problem is not discussing the path itself, it's the solution that you're proposing

[plush nimbus]

Absolutely not, it's completely duable, with like 5 proof on kd average and like 10+? On personal. Not to mention people can/will alt it and convert currencies like crazy.

[jaunty mist]

that directly nerfs more lower level players than the hard grinders

[pearl mango]

I did
I got despair lvl 4in 5hours before the buff
I have melanchy 5 and i spent 2600proofs on tools and i barely do dgs i have 3700dgs done in total since i started

[tacit ridge]

My position is that agony is fine and jorm will be an event that makes it easier to farm (just like Medusa will do the same for melancholy)
I’ve engaged with melancholy the most

[harsh geyser]

How so?

[grave fulcrum]

So you were 100% killing hel or surtr

[pearl mango]

Cant you unlock anguish at t8btw?

[plush nimbus]

For anguish lvl 25+ raid we re talking about what ? 40k proof ?

[grave fulcrum]

Which means you have an inactive kg and you're the only one active

[tacit ridge]

Yea, most kingdoms don’t just let one member go solo on hel/surtr indefinitely 😅

[plush nimbus]

It's not even close to what you can possible achieve via dungeons for the same time, and the same...challenge

[grave fulcrum]

Or you have a kg that's so active that they were speed duoing raids

[jaunty mist]

removing the ability to gain proofs from t8-t9 raids, hardcore grinders will stil find a way to optimize their gains, lower level players will just struggle cuz early t10 raiding can still take a long time

[pearl mango]

I think someone did the math and its around 5000raids for ang25

Thats ALOT OF raids

Gunnrick i believe did it

[plush nimbus]

I mean, let's not act like you never seen people with insane amount of T10 Jorm kill. And now take into account it's 5* cheaper to farm T8...

[jaunty mist]

I don't mind lowering proofs, increasing maluses as you progress the path (hard capping) or unlinking mats from the proofs, but removing proof from t8-t9 raids just sounds likea mess

[harsh geyser]

not sure if you realize that me talking about T8/T9 is in the context of a T10/11 player.
What I'm saying is that "downtiered content should provide less rewards".

A T8 player gets normal rewards against T8 enemies, less against T7, less against T6.
A T9 player gets normal rewards against T9 enemies, less against T8, less against T7.
A T10/11 player gets normal rewards against T10 enemies, less against T9, less against T8.

Apologies if that wasn't clear.

[pearl mango]

99% of raids are not t10

[harsh geyser]

outside of raids, it's already the case that a T10 player gets zero rewards for killing (anguished) T9 enemies.

[plush nimbus]

Not this, and not what you said earlier too. Fyi, but who cares, I farmed and give equaly to all kingdom members

[tacit ridge]

Those people didn’t kill high anguish jorm. Again, I really think you should try some shackled raiding

[jaunty mist]

so to be sure, you don't want t8-t9 raids to not give proofs, you just want the proof amount to be lower on t8-t9 raids?

[pearl mango]

Take current even for an examplr

Balin is t9
Trev is t6/9

Kerb have less than t10raids

Alongide all the normal raids that are not t10

How many t10raids im getting per 100scrolls

[harsh geyser]

yes, that's what I'm saying. combined with an overall agony drop rate buff to somewhat counteract the tilting of rewards toward on-tier content.

[grave fulcrum]

If you didn't otherwise you spent more than 10 hrs in 4 days grinding 1000 scrolls seeing as in 1 hr I was able to duo 50 ish raids without anguish

[plush nimbus]

I will gladely spend a few hours just showing how it is duable to farm those scrolls, even on no alt dude

[tacit ridge]

And then take those scrolls and try shackled raids with them

[harsh geyser]

for completeness, I do also expect agony rate to decrease overall somewhat. in my experience it's clearly above the other paths in terms of path income.

[raven bane]

TBH it will be efficient to farm the runes through anguished raiding. Rag bosses are pretty hard and will slow the process down considerably.

[tacit ridge]

So you want to lower the drop rate overall and also make t8 and t9 drop even less? That’ll put agony squarely under melancholy

[grave fulcrum]

Go ahead all your gonna prove is that you spent 10 hrs grind scrolls to drop scrolls to kill raids to change to kg raid proofs.

Anyways it also says nf needs to remove the ability to convert runes if it's realistically that fast

[plush nimbus]

10, or 2, or 1000, it doesn't matter if the rewards are ⬆️⬆️⬆️ compared to other path. It's still a balance issue

[tacit ridge]

The path that uses finite resources should be more profitable than the one that uses infinite resources imo. Especially when melancholy can be further abused by alt play

[grave fulcrum]

Again you're focusing on the top 10% of the player base instead of the 60% of average players

[tacit ridge]

Where’s your data for saying that? You’re just pulling that out of thin air

[grave fulcrum]

Technically everything but torment can be

[plush nimbus]

Maybe fact that even anguish 4 T8 Jorm will give way more currencies and so on than any other path with real challenge 😅

[pearl mango]

If youre saying 1000raids ina few days is realistic

I say 30dgs an hour is realistic too

Boom its balanced now

[tacit ridge]

Anguish 4 jorm is better than Ang 15 melancholy, is that what you’re saying?

[pearl mango]

Hell no

[grave fulcrum]

Imo this is close depends on how focused you are. It's closer to 20-24

[tacit ridge]

Because if it is what you’re saying, you’re doped out of your mind

[plush nimbus]

Absolutely

[tacit ridge]

Oh boy

I’m leaving the thread

No use arguing here clearly

[pearl mango]

🦛the fact you gained ang16melanchy in the same time some ppl got ang15agony

Shows that its balanced

No?

[grave fulcrum]

Yah this is getting no where can anyone who has any feedback resend their stuff and let's let the devs decide what to do instead of + people talking to 3 people why their idea is crappy and unrealistic

[tacit ridge]

Imagine if he used alts, he’d be Ang25 melancholy by now

[pearl mango]

Im pretty sure theres someone at that lvl

[tacit ridge]

Nefr

[pearl mango]

In hoa we also have someone level 20despair

Oh wow

[plush nimbus]

Just asked abyss to quickly do a video on anguish 20 lower tier raid ⬆️

[pearl mango]

Nerf despair

[plush nimbus]

Average 17-20 proof

[grave fulcrum]

Cost to upgrade the path and Al used

[pearl mango]

Isnt abyss a 135als guy with top tier gear

[plush nimbus]

Max dungeon is 30 proof if you get high enough on the dungeon path, still require (probably way) more than 2 mins. Here you have 17-20 average in way less than 2 minutes no ?

[daring terrace]

Maybe the issue is the anguish guild simply isn't hard, even with shackles?

[pearl mango]

Isnt abyss a 135als guy with top tier ang20gear

[harsh geyser]

(clearly shackled in that video to AL96)

[pearl mango]

His gear is anguish 20

[plush nimbus]

Show me someone with 300 al able to have a better ratio on dungeon 🙏🏻

[pearl mango]

He have insane stuff

[plush nimbus]

It's just unbalanced

[tacit ridge]

He spent a resource for it. Dungeons are infinite

[pearl mango]

Do you use anguish 20gear in your dgs?

Like abyss does

In his raids

[harsh geyser]

... scrolls are infinite. Not sure where this finite/infinite thing came from.
Plus you can get melancholies while you farm scrolls.

[plush nimbus]

Well no, because..... No one is anguish 20+ dungeons, because it's harder, slower.

[pearl mango]

Then you cant compare

Abyss invest in gear to make stuff faster

If you do the same

Probably same thing

[plush nimbus]

Don't get me wrong, I m just trying to avoid some game unbalance issue that may create the troubles Fux talked about.

[tacit ridge]

• gets video from probably the most optimized player right now for raids
• “see? This is fast”
  That argument is terrible and not representative at all lol

[plush nimbus]

My friend, ask Abyss if I invested less in the game / him he will gladely say I played "a bit" more.
It's duable, it will be done, and to me it's a big issue if nothing is done to solve this.

[plush nimbus]

Ask the same from the most optimised dungeon player, feel free

[pearl mango]

This is his gear

[tacit ridge]

5k raids for Ang20 is what someone mentioned here right? I consider myself a hardcore player, not close to the top of tops but pretty up there. I don’t have that amount of scrolls on hand. I doubt many people do

[pearl mango]

Look how much he invested to do the raid fast

Also

He told you this didnt he

[grave fulcrum]

Scrolls have a pre requisition to be able to use for anguish. Grinding them out regardless of the guild you use to grind them or is they're finite. Say you get 5 per up and run 15 of them that's 75 scrolls in a singular day with or I can run 24 normals per hr for several hrs. Let's say you run for 3 hrs that day that's 96 dungeons run aka infinite

[pearl mango]

Meaning that isnt his average timing

I know you invested alot into the game

Just saying your not making a fair comparison

[grave fulcrum]

Dude is loved by the rng gods

[plush nimbus]

Yes, and I have the same on dungeons you know. Anguished perfect/close to perfect gear for optimal speed. But I m maybe missing something thinking it will be hard to get the same challenge/rewards/time spend on a content you absolutely need min time to grind as it's on seperate floors

[tacit ridge]

So your problem is solely that your preferred method of play isn’t optimal, is that it?

[pearl mango]

Like im just saying if we get 2 ppl with same amount of investment into builds dgs arent that slower than raids

[grave fulcrum]

Sounds like we need to make als .ore restrictive again as more als for this made it too easy for everyone

[plush nimbus]

I think it's quite fair to say I m maybe not that trash in running dungeons, so if I see a big issue in rewards/time/challenge there s maybe at least a tiny one ?

[plush nimbus]

Dude 😅

[pearl mango]

Cant you have 96 als on ang15melanchy

How are you still struggling with dgs

Seems that melachy is too hard

[tacit ridge]

Then all methods need to be equal. Despair is also time gated by the fact you engage each fight separately. Let’s buff that first

[grave fulcrum]

No I think it's fair to say you're part of the top 10% and we don't need to balance around you.
That's end of story for me carry on youve gotten nowhere in 2 hrs

[plush nimbus]

It's not ! Max proof from dungeons, on really hard anguish on T11 exclusive dungeon (not T8 raid) is 30 ! And you see balance when it's duable to farm 20 in 30 seconds.

[tacit ridge]

Yes, the most optimized player who also got good rng cleared one raid in 30 seconds. Excellent data point

[raven bane]

If Agony is by far the META as this thread suggests why are people still pushing melancholy high? Seems like there may be some intangible advantages

[plush nimbus]

I ve shared an issue, that may be discussed in a new balance thread in 2 years from now, with people farming it upset losing their thing, and people not using it upset for not seing how good it was when it was available

[pearl mango]

Everyone does what they enjoy

I enjoy raiding and im also missingalot of gear

So its a win win

[tacit ridge]

Leaderboard is a big one. If you’re focusing on agony you’re dropping quick

[raven bane]

I think you also don't need to be AS attentive to play melancholy

[tacit ridge]

Was about to say that as well

[pearl mango]

And i can say the same thing

About agony

Not all classes

Can do raids in 30secs

No matter what tier

At ang15

Its a few selected builds

[tacit ridge]

Whatever class you’re playing, you’re not spamming mages dance to clear ang15 raids

[pearl mango]

Same with melanchy

[raven bane]

But its full attentive, you basically can brain off for first 16 floors of any dungeon and I think thats why a lot of people like it

and for a lot of classes half brain off for back 9

[harsh geyser]

I'm okay with agreeing that the data atm is early and difficult. Everyone just promise not to complain too much if any of the paths (including agony) end up being too rewarding and need to be reduced, even after the fact or after an event screws with the rates too much. 🙏

[raven bane]

The fact that a lot of people also took advantage of the week of very strong rates is also skewing a lot of the minimal data we have. Personally don't think post-nerf agony is in an OP spot considering the cost

[plush nimbus]

Abyss when explaining to him the cost of T8 Jorm : "holy s****"

"is it ok for you if I push anguish 50 with those raids"

See you in July. Sadly every day of keeping it as it is may be just a pain.
I would prefer seing an adjust on the other side, and then ⬆️ it if I was so wrong, rather than the opposite. But well

[broken pike]

I'm still reading so idk if a comment has already been made on this, but the offender for high anguish raiding is the usual. SS3 being OP. Ask him to do it without ss3 lol

[plush nimbus]

It probably increase the issue, I agree

[vocal basalt]

This is more of a problem because of deity imo since they can get insane dmg and retain the most tankiness this game has ever seen with high base stats + channelalus + barrialus + arisen Fey gear

[plush nimbus]

Abyss "ok I ll do so you ll be able to share the datas". So see you in July 😅

[pearl mango]

Abyss will be reaching ang50 in that time

Wether with t8raids

[harsh geyser]

I don't have a great number on scroll farming, but it feels like players can ang1-4 uwu and get a bit more than 1 scroll a minute, plus a melancholy or three. Then kill the raid that gets summoned in 30s to a minute, and get something like 10 proofs out (depending on anguish level and a bunch of other factors). Napkin math is something like baseline 10/min importantly not counting stockpiles.

Then melancholy is something in the ballpark of 5-10 proofs per 2min dungeon. Baseline something like 5/min.
Then torment is something like 100 proofs per 15-20 minute tower clear targeting T10 enemies (check Sirith's data linked here: https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/1377194080718553150/1385290372007329863). Baseline something like 5/min.

Then despair is...idk. Had to go measure it, at pathL5 shackled I'm getting something like 8/min but could use a lot more data.

[pearl mango]

Or not

[timber furnace]

Despair rewards a lot ||||

[broken pike]

He has shown himself doing it on a 0 AL gilga. It's not a deity problem only

[plush nimbus]

And spoiler : you won't see other path with same rewards/time. Sadly or not

[turbid sedge]

300 new messages 💀

[harsh geyser]

(if you count existing stockpiles, then agony is blazing fast and it's completely understandable why people are in the teens of path level after just a few weeks 😅)

[turbid sedge]

I've seen agony 30 already on aethric

[vocal basalt]

With high ang this just wont be a thing. Im saying deity may be able to tank all anguish always, especially with 2 50%pos amities. He doesnt need to give up dmg for basically immortality

[plush nimbus]

This !
And now when adding some particular way to farm scrolls on event - and "play style" but it's not even my topic - and it's just minimum a meta, or what I see as a cheese

[broken pike]

Again, he has done his high anguish on a 0 al gilga with ss3.. lol

[plush nimbus]

That's me* jumping on balance topic sorry my friend 😅

[broken pike]

No maluses against it

[vocal basalt]

How much def did He have? How will this hold against an ultimate?

[pearl mango]

I mean were using the same player who already have anguish 20gear and top notch stuff as an example?

[vocal basalt]

Also you can bash SS thats not a problem. Im talking about deity being able to 0 out everything with just 2 amities

[vocal basalt]

1 starscreen and his acc gets deleted here

[pearl mango]

I do it with giggle and i take 140k dmg+ from ang15 raids specially the strong ones

Going full tank will make me do 900k a turn

With many buffs

Thats like 4mins a raid

[broken pike]

Idk. Shackled on 5 agony and I die on easy raids as heretic . Haven't played around with it too much though.

4 mins a raid is nothing...

[plush nimbus]

Then we can compare with top dungeons players maybe ? Thing is, it's already duable to get more rewards/time in 2 weeks for some people on raids spam than what the most insane dungeons spammers will be able to do in ... in any amount of time

[broken pike]

It used to take 20 minutes for a.morri

[pearl mango]

I do it with deity fr fr

Despair go brrr

[vocal basalt]

Im not saying your SS pov is unwarranted

Im just worried deities will breeze through

[pearl mango]

Dungeon spammer will never have to worry about not having dungeons raids for the average even the decently active player will start being an issue sooner than later

They are not infinite

[turbid sedge]

I confirm that to evolve melancholy it takes more than to make raids in agony

[pearl mango]

Melanchy is not rewarding enough

lets nerf agony

[harsh geyser]

Or agony is too rewarding.

[harsh geyser]

Why not?

[plush nimbus]

Now we re talking. But to me, melanc is fine. Agony is too much, and with some way easely duable it can be just insanity

[turbid sedge]

I'm 19 in mel so I know what the farm entails
What I find problematic is that all proofs are economically equivalent

[pearl mango]

Need data for that
Average player doing dgs/raids
Comparing time/reward ratio
Comparing investment into builds
And then we can talk

[timber furnace]

Melan is too slow imo, even if agony is to "good", melancholy is still very slow at the start

[turbid sedge]

Whereas there should be a clear difference between all proofs

[pearl mango]

As long as you bring screenshots form a top 0.1% player saying agony is easy

Were getting nowhere

[raven bane]

I do think Melancholy is slightly too slow, and that all paths do not need to be equal.

[plush nimbus]

You have it here. "Best" dungeons players can't compete with what can be achieved in the same invested time via raid path

[harsh geyser]

Do you apply this same scrutiny to buffs? Or is it just a one-way street kind of thing? 😅

[plush nimbus]

Well that's just what Abyss is saying too in Dm with me

[pearl mango]

Everything

[vocal basalt]

In beta imo it became insanely profitable around ang 20. But now that you mentioned it, if agony has a cap, this may even out long term

[pearl mango]

Show what you use for dgs

[harsh geyser]

I don't think they can ever be equal, they just need to be within some kind of reasonable bounds. If they're at worst 2-3x apart then that's not the end of the world. If during an event one thing becomes like 10x the others then hopefully NF can jump on that before it's too much of a problem.

[plush nimbus]

It's 17-20 average on anguish 20 according to Abyss, but it's not a cap as he sometimes get up to 27

[timber furnace]

Btw, the People with anguish agony 15+, are you using other skill apart of spiked shield? To attack

[vocal basalt]

Oh damn thats a ton

[pearl mango]

Sigils

Ultima tanky

Prom tanky

[vocal basalt]

I thought it capped at 15? Or was this before?

[pearl mango]

Sometimes

[plush nimbus]

Swan anguish 15, A Morri head and Boots anguish 11, beast gard ang 15...

[plush nimbus]

Absolutely agree with this 9999999999%

[pearl mango]

Doesnt swan have 1.1pen

Maybe thats why dmg output isnt good at high melanchy?

Have you tried a high pen skill or weapon

Higher*

[plush nimbus]

At 15 I one shot. It can't be faster

[timber furnace]

Ultima is still useful?, so the only skill suffering is realm strikes(less crit/crit dmg/less pen and more miss chance)

[plush nimbus]

Or find me a way to clear 2 floor in one go

[pearl mango]

Got nerfed recently by 30%

[timber furnace]

20

[pearl mango]

Knight posted to odie that its 30% but odie required bigger sample

Go ask knight

[plush nimbus]

If you re saying you can find a way to do dungeon in 30 seconds then maybe yes it could be balanced with raid (and again we re talking about any kind of raid) when we ll reach ang 40+ and still spamming one shot

Then ok, here it's totally fine 😅

[pearl mango]

You think ppl spam in ang even 25 raids?

Let alone 40

Some friends i have struggle with 15

[plush nimbus]

Thing is, anguish 15 dungoens is like 7-8 proofs, for exemple

[turbid sedge]

20/30% I always find this too high compared to other path

Realize the problem that a farm that is too simple can cause

Ppls with 400+ al in one year

[pearl mango]

Dgs will allways have same sequence of buffs at a certain point but same setup raids the higher ang you are will reach a point where 99% of builds wont work

[plush nimbus]

And you can't do it faster than let's say... 1.30 with one shot mainly

[pearl mango]

Raids at ang20+ many builds already not viable

Investment to do raids is far higher than dgs

[tacit ridge]

However faster it might eventually be, it’s still slower than Ang50 on 1.0. So you’re never going to see those numbers or close to that

[plush nimbus]

But dungeon rewards are caped if you talk about it. And for now, even thinking about reaching this cap, it's still lower than what someone can expect from spamming lower tier raids on lower anguish level. I see it as a balance issue, especially when it's duable to focus on scrolls farm, even more on particular events, if you want to aim for it.
And as it is currently meta, you can be sure :

• it will be done
• some won't, because they don't want to, or because they don't know it
• it will be again on the talk in a few weeks, maybe month, maybe years, who knows, and the more we keep it as it is, the worst for the game/community/studio

[tacit ridge]

Disable 1.0 btw

[turbid sedge]

for the moment, waits for the difficulties to rise, for example in mel 30+,

I'm only 19, even with golem fortitude I take space slaps

[pearl mango]

Question

Genuinely

[plush nimbus]

That's just totally wrong

[pearl mango]

Wouldnt it make sense

If odie made dgs drop

1-3proofs

Like despair

[tacit ridge]

Crazy OP

[turbid sedge]

I thought that at first, but too much OP

[pearl mango]

Thats the case with agony and despair tho

1target multiple proofs

[tacit ridge]

A raid isn’t really comparable to a normal monster

[pearl mango]

Wouldnt that solve this whole thing ig?

[tacit ridge]

Despair was because you can only fight one monster at a time, while dungeons have hordes

[pearl mango]

I mean hes saying dgs gains are so shit

[plush nimbus]

I would prefer a reduction of agony path if it's too high and create powercreep rather than seing powercreep available on other paths too 😅

[harsh geyser]

It's great that despair doesn't have horde. Thank goodness aoe is only for two of the paths (melancholy, torment) while single target is for the other two (despair, agony).

[turbid sedge]

Rather increase the % drop

[pearl mango]

So you're saying dgs proofs are completely fine and not slow?

[plush nimbus]

No. I m saying they are fine, fun and so on. I think agony path is too regarding for the challenge, and too easy to benefit from if you aim for it a bit

[pearl mango]

....

Too easy

[plush nimbus]

Never talked about it. According to what some said, I tend to think it could need another buff, yes

[pearl mango]

Maybe after the recent change actually

The shackles one

Increasing shackles cap is what fkd all of this

[plush nimbus]

Even with anguish 4 T8 raid spamming it's already too strong. Add the ability to farm easely insane amount of scrolls, and ability to clear those raids on mid/high anguish and that's it, it's unbalanced

[pearl mango]

Have you seen the malusus?

Some raids even if you avoid alot

Wont even work

[languid cave]

He should have left shackles hard I enjoyed the challenge tbh risk was worth reward now I dono efficiency guild go brrrrrrr XD

[pearl mango]

Yeah we want the old shackles

Shackles now are too op

Way too much als

[plush nimbus]

I m level 8. If talking about anguish 4, I don't see a world where we can say it's challenging to spam T8 Jorm on anguish 4

[pearl mango]

Isnt that unshackled issue then?

Make shackles enabled from ang1

Easy solve

[plush nimbus]

No. It's not only this issue, as it's still duable with schackles.

[pearl mango]

Duable that doesnt seem op

[languid cave]

I mean I did 1st 14 on old shackles and had a blast figuring out game plans not I got all als at 15 and it's ez XD

[turbid sedge]

I don't understand the problem with shackles

The goal is not to overtake the shackles??

[pearl mango]

Im just saying i spent a whole week raiding 10hours a day

[plush nimbus]

Am I saying new T10 player will kill anguish 50 A Morris ? No. I m just saying the challenge/rewards ratio is probably way too high via agony path compared to any other, and the issue is mainly agony being too easy rather than other being too hard (despair aside, as this one seems to need some more help in orna)

[pearl mango]

To reach ang15

[turbid sedge]

The real challenge comes later

[paper void]

HOC and stay at the recommended ascension level, difficulty returned

[pearl mango]

Can i have a free hoc?

[languid cave]

5 years why didn't I think of this .....

[plush nimbus]

Or remove all your AL and start again. But no one will 😱

[languid cave]

Oh wait why grind at all

[paper void]

Sure, just play your favourite guild a lot

[plush nimbus]

Odie. Is it possible, to have everyone ok, to have a reduction of agony path, and increase it slowly but surely if it really need it ?

[pearl mango]

🦛

[plush nimbus]

Trying to avoid some new painful balance thread in a few months when it will be seen as "a bit too late" 😅

[pearl mango]

Ahh welp rip to everyone who didnt grind agony yet

Cyall later

[plush nimbus]

😂

[pearl mango]

Round 2?

[short osprey]

Getting closer... slowly but surely...

[livid sonnet]

oh i actually thought Monuments helped Melancholy, good to know i guess

[short osprey]

For anyone where it's still June 19th can you send which proofs your Pathspurs/Crucibles/DWTs are costing rn? I'm seeing mixed results from people and am curious if it's no longer the same for everyone

[short osprey]

Hmmm okay, maybe it was just wrong data I was seeing then?

[vocal basalt]

Same here for t9 and t10

[languid adder]

You COULD fix the alt problem or at least make it much less dominant with a lot of checks... it wont solve it, but will make it much harder to abuse

[sinful vapor]

You'd need a lot of manhours dedicated to those checks and enforcing them

[languid adder]

That is also true.

But i think that there is enough interest in the community that asking for those reinforcements would'nt hurt

Just starting to fight the emulators would do an insane difference

[fierce cedar]

are agony raid scaling going up?

[languid adder]

Extremely slightly it feels

[livid sonnet]

i was excited to do Tower 41, and died on floor 2... sad beeps

[short osprey]

Figured out why I was seeing discrepancies, currencies change at UTC 0 it seems

[opal atlas]

I think reward in anguish 2.0 must be a lot: in ang 1.0 you spent your proof to buy materials, now you spent it to level up in the guild (you also can buy materials, but they are split in 1/4, and if you pay for them, you don't level up).
Now it is harder to level up in AL

[glass mango]

Anguish 2.0 is all about hoarding shinies

[paper void]

You needed to spend proofs to level up in 1.0 too

[full peak]

ppl have short memory

[obsidian jackal]

Yes, but clearly it wasn't hundreds of them per level up

[sonic summit]

Going from level 11 to level 12 is more than doing 0-50 in 1.0

I'm not against the fact that it should be slow to upgrade levels, but it's a bit sad that we can't do anything else with proofs during that time, that will be quite long

[steep jetty]

if the benchmark is ang 2.0 @25 is the softcap that should be ~equal to ang 1.0 @50
then the total proof cost should also be ~equal

though i guess the aim of 2.0 is to "slow down" progression and not blow through content in general, whether its artificially or not

[somber nymph]

Once you have the guild leveled up a fair amount proof income is good and you can once again spend on materials or demonworking tools/crucibles

You just first have to put in the grind and effort

[short osprey]

You really don't need DWTs/Crucibles until at least ~level6/7 I found(as long as you have some good, already established, gear)

[turbid sedge]

Even higher

20+

[somber nymph]

You have lower difficulty scaling in Aethric

[turbid sedge]

2% per ang

[somber nymph]

Is that a typo?

[turbid sedge]

I plau ang20 dungeon with lvl 1 items, except the weap

[short osprey]

For Orna enemy stats are +22% per despair, +20% per Melancholy, +18% per Agony, +8% per Torment

[steep jetty]

how much on hoa?

[turbid sedge]

Despair 18
Mel 16
Agony 14
Torment 6

Currently I am 320% in dungeon with lvl1 items, it's up to you to compare with orna but 320% doesn't require you to increase its stuff from my point of view

[short osprey]

Shackled or unshackled?

[turbid sedge]

I have the Weap lvl 18, but honestly I didn't feel any difference

[turbid sedge]

shackled

[somber nymph]

Anguish bonus stats scale very poorly with ascension (as in, they don't at all), so level 1 with a good bonus effect is the biggest power jump

[turbid sedge]

I think the notion of evolving stuff will be more in the ang50/60/70+

[short osprey]

Weapon level 18 is still a 54% increase to its stats, so that is quite a bit

[somber nymph]

It is and it isn't =/

[turbid sedge]

Say that with or without, it's the one shot

[somber nymph]

I think how anguish stats interact with other bonuses probably needs to be changed, as otherwise they are close to worthless until very high anguishes

[short osprey]

Idk, from my experience, I'm running 11 Torment and getting my weapon from level 1 -> 8 has been the difference between 1 shotting a mid/high floor zerk and not

[somber nymph]

It certainly would help if you're on the threshold of being able to oneshot or not

[turbid sedge]

the anguish stats that scale on ALs had been tested before?

[turbid sedge]

I gain 1000 magic with my lvl 18 weapon, I could not tell how much it influences the damage

[somber nymph]

Unfortunately I didn't perform the testing on how anguish scaling interacts so this is secondhand info. My understanding is that 1000 magic is added after all other bonuses, so would simply be an additive +1000 to whatever your magic number would be at 0 anguish

Ie, if you had 12k magic already it would make for 13k magic - an 8% increase

[turbid sedge]

Hence the fact of not feeling the difference in combat compared to my build

[sonic summit]

It's like adding AL but on the item then no? if it is
item total stats = baseStats + (AL * (baseStats/100)) + (3xAnguishLevel * (baseStats/100)) ?

[short osprey]

I'm not sure, just checked the before and after equipping my Ang level 4 Heretic Robe in AL44 Shackles my magic stat goes from 12185 -> 14450, that's +2265mag from an item having 820mag reg/918 with anguish

[somber nymph]

Maybe that was just a bug earlier then?

Could you compare your stats in that loadout between 0 Anguish and Anguish level 4?

[short osprey]

Went with just the Heretic's Robe for simplicity (as all the gear int the build has Ang levels ranging from 6 - 9

[sturdy stump]

Doesnt seem to scale with al? I only get 200 isg def/res from this onc

[short osprey]

Okay yeah I get +127mag

[somber nymph]

Idk where the extra 29 magic comes from

[sonic summit]

The stat pages seems bugged to me, it shows my stats like I had max shackles AL (I'm AL 77)

But in the fight I have stats corresponding to my AL

[short osprey]

Figured it out, it seems anguish stats scale with bonuses like OT (10%) and Dragon Slayer (20%), but not ALs
98+(98×0.1)+(98×0.2) = 127

[somber nymph]

Oh, ok. That's better than I was initially led to believe then. I wonder if they also scale with the swash bonus?

Thank you

And I guess that opens up a question about Trev Charms too

[short osprey]

Was about to try and figure this out but now I'm seeing some things being off? (Turned off shackles for simplicity)
My mana from my Trev staff should give +300 exactly with its Ang level, but with Ang off vs on at level 8, I only gain 100?

[full peak]

Heh

Testing this on BeoH come with hybrid problem 😄

[short osprey]

Also doing the math here something else is off, my magic is going from 10281 -> 10688, + 407mag, but with +316mag from Ang stats, I should be getting 316*1.3 = 410 and that's actually before we include the HM stats I should be getting from the +42attack from Ang level which would be (42×0.4)*1.3 = 21 therefore I should be getting +431mag, not +407mag

[full peak]

world boni are OT/party/etc bonuses, it cames in with AL ...

imo ANG stats are counted between "bonistat" and "ofstat" making them affected by proficincy, DW, 2h bonus, swash, hybrid ...

[full peak]

ouch 🫠

time to do AL10 beta char without OT and everything to see what happens

right cant do a thing without OT 😄

[short osprey]

Seems Ang stats do work with HM form the difference here

Stat difference pre vs post Ang4
Attack stat: 6316 -> 6343, +48att
Magic stats: 7682 -> 7809, +127mag

From Ang stats gears gives: +98mag / -5att

Magic stats comes from: 98 * 1.3 = 127
Attack comes from HM: ((98−5)*0.4)*1.3 = 48
(Just realizing this may be wrong? "98mag - 5att" does not make sense 😅 ... It's too early for this much math it seems lol)

[short osprey]

But for some reason this SS here is not adding up

[full peak]

Ok, AL11 Deity

Gradlon staff, ang0:
HP: 536
Mag 1417

Gradlon staff, ang5
HP: 616
Mag: 1629

difference:
HP: +80
Mag: +212

Deity ang0 stats naked:
HP: 14 141 = 14 141 / 1.11 = 12 740 (base Deity HP) ✅
Mag 1 536 = 1 536 / (1.11 + 1.1) = 1 270 (base Deity mag) ✅

ang0 Gradlon:
HP: 14 736 [+595 / 1.11 = 536 ] ✅
Mag: 3 251 [+ 1715 / ( 1.1 1+ 1.1 ) = 1417.3 ....OT+AL] ✅

ang6 with Gradlon:
HP: 14 780 [ 595 + 44 ...where ang SHOULD BE +80 ] ❓
Mag: 3 380 [ 1715 + 129 ...where ang SHOULD BE +212]❓

[raven bane]

Can you math men test last martyr

[full peak]

Well, i would like to know how the stats are added even without anything else on top of that

Martyr can come later

[short osprey]

For Ang5 what is the AL shackle? Cause on live it's currently showing the stats page at Max AL shackles, not your actual AL
#1377194080718553150 message

[full peak]

Ok, it is 11

Will count it in

Changed the numbers in original msg

Changed AL to 11 ...cuz it is simplier 😄

[short osprey]

Can you check these numbers at Ang4? cause things where adding up at that level for me, but not at Ang8, so I'm curious if it has something to do with level 5 and above (when shackles become an option)

[full peak]

Just a note, when I don't turn off shackles and take it down to ang4, my AL appear as 0. 👀

[short osprey]

[full peak]

ang6 with Gradlon:
HP: 14 780 [ 595 + 44 ...where ang SHOULD BE +80 ] ❓
Mag: 3 380 [ 1715 + 129 ...where ang SHOULD BE +212]❓

ang5 with Gradlon:
HP: 14 771
Mag: 3 355

+9 HP and +25 mag per ang
which is rather less than 3% ...it is ~1.7% stats

which is also those "+44 HP" and "+129 mag" total ... +/-

with all the rounding happening the numbers are too small

still, less than 3%

weird

[languid adder]

Yes but also you cant really compare the couple of hours in anguish with the potential hundreds and thousands veterans have to do.
Thats not a fair comparison

[languid adder]

Remember that HP scaling is much much much much much harder and i would say that the softcap (adding shackles) in regards to Same difficulty is... What, 12 if im generous?

So yeah. I see the Problem of not gaining anything from current anguish, but also, its only for veterans. The majority of problems occur to veterans, cause of the iteration of shackles.

And while the majority of things in ang is fun now and the gameplay is enjoyable, the shackles are still super disengenuent when i remember the words of the reddit post what they are supposed to do

It was Said they are supposed so you can enjoy the game either ad a challenge or with your full power, while progressing at similar speeds through the anguish levels.
And with that high of a penalty cap, that is simple not the case.

If it is wanted that shackling is incentivised through punishment and maluses for previous time investment (aka devaluate it or forfeit it to not get punished) it is very disingenuent, and shackles should not "incentivise", but incentivise. Not with punishment, but reward.

Proofs that you can spend on cosmetics or goodies that arent related to power progession would be a solution, for example.

Make the veterans feel like their effort isnt in vain for newer content. The cry for ascension loss in PvP is unjustified and bad enough, now having that problem even in PvE is just not reasonable.

If difficulty is wanted, i gladly forfeit power for reward, but if its to avoid punishment, its a unhealthy mentality i dont want to support.

[paper void]

I wasn’t making a comparison?

[languid adder]

I read it like one, i am sorry if i mistook it

My bad

Ah i just reread it i get what you ment now. X3
Did not notice the person did forget to mention it. Reads much different now

[pearl mango]

Hey

@languid adder whats wrong with you name

Monkey

What did gilga do

Anyways i came to ask if its intended

That crit malusus dont effect followers

[languid adder]

All according to my likings! What could be wrong with it? :o

[finite flint]

why do you call it an issue? it's working as intended

[finite flint]

no they are like 4.xm at base , they got reduced a long time ago

[nocturne night]

Right yeah.

[somber nymph]

I do agree with AncientL on this

Just because scrolls can be farmed more heavily with alts is not a reason to punish all players

[finite flint]

lol? I kill Ang 4 t8 snakes in 10-15 seconds

[finite flint]

it's 7 in fact

[finite flint]

that's just a bad way to farm, you have to farm at Ang4 obviously at max al

[nocturne night]

Sounds like the solution's just forcing the shackle then ain it?

[tacit ridge]

Ang 4 doesn’t get you the amount of proofs that people were complaining about though

[plush nimbus]

Thing is, I m talking about something that is already an issue without alt. Alts just make it easier a lot.

[somber nymph]

I fundamentally disagree that it is an issue though. Agony intentionally works on "trash" raids and makes them relevant.

I do still dislike stasis's power, even at a 90% chance to freeze, but at least it isn't 100% anymore.

[raven bane]

Are people really farming anguish on alts to drop scrolls? I feel like new anguish is more alt proof than anything

[somber nymph]

I would've rathered stasis be entirely disabled for Anguish like had been suggested in the beta

[plush nimbus]

I don't like raiding, still, it was not much of a pain to craft 1k T10 Jorm (wich mean 5k T8 Jorm), in like 2 or 3 days not spending 10 hours on it, far from it.

This will be done, and this, to me. Is just absurd for an update supposed to try to remove cheese as much as possible

I would love not to see this as the new meta, as it clearly doesn't fit with anguish 2.0 intend

[turbid sedge]

otherwise set a limit for obtaining proofs only on t10 raids for t10/t11 players

[finite flint]

mam heavy farmers already have fey form stuff since the first iteration. we are talking people like us, we have 190+ of every single drop in the game that is played in a y relevant build I think? trev staff was the only missing one and we have it now. I did make 2800 t8 snakes last event because of anguish 2.0, with somewhat light farming (like I was doing 4 towers a day anyway those days), between main and alts. I think I could easily make 5k+++ per event if they don't change it. btw who actually needs fey form stuff anymore, nothing is used in bis builds these days. gerd stuff you don't need 198, only FSC you did

[plush nimbus]

It's not like there are not already players ready to go straight into this "thing"

See

[finite flint]

I farmed like 900 day one when proofs were horrible, with alts, to bring alts to anguish 4 and main as well

[plush nimbus]

See ⬆️

[turbid sedge]

I farmed 1000 t10 in 4 days without making it a priority or a farm intensive

Someone who makes it their priority can reach insane amounts

[plush nimbus]

Exactly

[tacit ridge]

Sounds like the common problem here is Alts

[timber furnace]

Yes

[timber furnace]

Just Ban him

[plush nimbus]

No. It's not only alts

[tacit ridge]

Again, mass farming Jorm requires access to a ton of kingdom raids. 99% of people don’t have that

[plush nimbus]

A ton ?

What is surtr prize?

[turbid sedge]

For 1000, I used 1.5m orns maybe 2m

[somber nymph]

Yeah, that's a ton 💀

[timber furnace]

Jajaja

[plush nimbus]

It's not because it's only realistic to part of the player base that it should be ok

[tacit ridge]

2M KOrns for one single member? That’s crazy lol

[somber nymph]

Crazy for a non-alt kingdom

[turbid sedge]

I'm not selfish, I've made my kingdoms enjoy 😅

[tacit ridge]

It’s only realistic to those abusing alt kingdoms. Fix alts and the issue is solved

[plush nimbus]

A lot. Duable. And yes, alt kgd ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ the issue

[somber nymph]

Even Hlid couldn't afford that I don't think

[tacit ridge]

Nor IBWIPVP

[plush nimbus]

Wich also mean the game is saying again : if you want to perform much much better, go for it

[turbid sedge]

On Aethric, it's easy to earn kingdom orns via Adventurer Guild

[tacit ridge]

This is the orna discord, Aethric doesn’t factor into anything I say

[plush nimbus]

On orna, it's also easy to farm kgd orn when you have friends in your kgd not spamming raids for no reason

[finite flint]

because they are curious about what happens at cap, for the challenge and so on. towers exclusively were meta since forever yet you didn't have the top 300 players doing the 5 50f religiously every day even if it was embarrassingly better than everything else in the game by a large margin since 2023 (and mnemonics with shards ofc). people don't play full meta usually, even really hardcore grinders dont

[turbid sedge]

There is no thread anguish feedback on our official discord

[plush nimbus]

On orna it was also due to refinieres tbh. So good that even tower are just meh

[somber nymph]

This isn't an official thread fwiw, it was made by a player

A player can make one on the Aethric server too

[raven bane]

U guys weren't running 5 50s a day? But yeah its because dungeons are brain off s lot more than towers and raids are

[finite flint]

now do alts, so UW*4, and anguish 4, unshackled farming for 7 proofs , and the gap is... a lot more

[somber nymph]

I think it's fair for Aethric people to join the discussions here too, but Aethric specific complaints/comments don't make much sense here (when they do get brought up - not saying they are entirely now)

[turbid sedge]

You know as well as I do how active he is 😅

[turbid sedge]

True

But the concern that Goudine speaks about affects the two games

[tacit ridge]

Again, alts being the issue 🤔

[finite flint]

you guys werent

[timber furnace]

And they also dont want a single person to spend all the orns

[finite flint]

check tower leaderboards

[finite flint]

I am bringing up anything HOA related

[raven bane]

Once I could afford them I prioritized them every day lol

Only spammed dungeons when I wanted to half pay attention

[plush nimbus]

Allow this agony sorcery, and it will just create an issue for the game, as it let a place where you can just ignore anguish 2.0 intend while having better results than any other path + it will create issue for players, between going for it while understanding it should not be as it is, or not going for it because we don t want to. But players doing it will skyrocket, so it will create frustration, some will then jump into this madness and so on. Not to mention those players who will, in 6 months of trying the real intended challenge, will understand - a bit late - this sorcery is available and so on and so on

[finite flint]

it gets you more per hour than they were complaining about

[somber nymph]

I don't think Agony is a problem. It costs resources and therefore is the quickest way to gain proofs, but I don't believe that proof income is problematic.

And any way you nerf it will hurt players that do not abuse alts way more than players who do, or who play less than hyper efficiently

Edit: Any way you nerf it other than stasis

[finite flint]

stasis is the only reason some people are doing duo over anguish4. otherwise it would be everyone doing anguish 4 only, except when trying the challenge thing (that you never do for thousands of raids)

[plush nimbus]

Knight, you love calculation. I would love to see you jump into it, when I see what it does for refineries and so on - the calculations were already here but it's not the same it you share it -, please

[finite flint]

yes? with GS BP it's easy

[somber nymph]

I don't have the slightest clue how the Agony proof formula works

[plush nimbus]

Spam trash raids = earn insane amount of everything

That's basicaly how it is for now

[somber nymph]

That's not a formula and you know it

That's just rhetorical garbage that undermines your point

[plush nimbus]

That's mainly what you will see at the end of the calculation, as even if talking about "low" anguish it's already better than all other path

[somber nymph]

If someone can give me the real, legitimate average of proofs per raid I can do a calculation

[finite flint]

or winter event. not many people understood how absurd festivity scrolls are

[plush nimbus]

Just like when I started the ref thread and saw you get the same conclusion 2 years later 😅

[finite flint]

7 at anguish 4, after patch, over Serious sample (solo)

2.5x4 with 3 alts

I can kill 150 random from events solo/hour

230-250 moondrops

ofc if taking it lazy, interruptions, watching tv it's lower

[timber furnace]

The difference is that the problem with Ref wasnt alt play

[finite flint]

so 110-120 per hour mixed event scrolls at braindead 0 choice

800-900 prroofs

then there is the details you guys are NEVER considering of the underlying activity

800 messages no one said we used to raid even with 0 proofs

for mats and to farm specific things

ANY added proof is huge

while dungeons are 0 useful stuff other than the proofs (once you have Qatvanga, gandrig and the rest 195+)

so like I used to farm 200-300 Cetus per event just for the quality adorns

you give me 1500-2000 proofs for that it's just busted

[plush nimbus]

Here is my "calculation" of what will happen in July for some :
I can realisticaly craft 1k T8 Jorm a day, and kill those 1k T8 Jorm in the next day.
If I do it on the whole month, even on anguish 4, it's 7k proof every 2 days, wich mean 7k*15 for the month = 105k proof.
For comparaison, best anguish 1 dudes used to get less than 2k proof a day with insane farm, and anguish 2.0 won't give same results until I don't know when.

[finite flint]

at same difficulty

like I was actually ok with day 1 proof rate drop lol

10% per roll, 10 rolls

18% per roll at anguish 4

2.8 proof (one in end screen) solo was already 5x felling in worth

[plush nimbus]

This
I absolutely agree with. As said multiple time, including in the cade lab thing when Knight was searching for best way to progress, it was already mentioned as huge at the time. Giving proof on top of it is just madness when we see how it can be done

[finite flint]

it was already a massive buff to an activity we were doing HAPPILY at 0 proofs

btw tower is the same

torment proofs at anguish 4 are just free

AT LEAST we get less shards

[languid adder]

I enjoy actually raiding again instead of just doing towers cause raiding sucks. Its just use X buffs and press 1 button till you see a conclusion screen.

Im happy i now have a good reason to raid, beeing good rewards

[finite flint]

than anguish 1.0 20-25

[plush nimbus]

I m glad there is someone here using the issue and sharing it, as for now, there are already some dudes who perfectly understood this and just spam like crazy.

[somber nymph]

All I'm seeing is an argument for making shackles go all the way down to anguish 1

[languid adder]

And to make raiding worse

[timber furnace]

As it should be tbh

[plush nimbus]

I see an emergency for game balance, wich should be shut down now while searching for a better solution

[nocturne night]

Raiding won't need to be worse. The issue is mainly people staying at anguish 4 getting fat earnings while killing raids in 15 seconds because they are ascension 100+

If they're shackled from the get go, you'll be raiding at ascension 10 (or less)

[somber nymph]

Agony, and anguish in general, is supposed to be increased difficulty for increased reward. Obviously if you have 200+ ALs you can just completely ignore any increase in difficulty

[languid adder]

I see this reasonable if there was a way to make up for the lost ALs so you dont get your effort getting turned into plot tokens, or shackles are at a state where they are true to the promise in the reddit post

[plush nimbus]

Rather than letting it available and hope for ORN to review the calculation + Odie to look at it + to do something about it

[finite flint]

shackling from the get go just destroys all previous investment in AL until you "farm back" 100+ hours

[nocturne night]

Yeah, and?

[timber furnace]

Jajaja

[languid adder]

Refineries? 4 years.
Towerfall? Ultima? Multiple years.
Ang 1.0? Multiple years.

Emergencys not beeing the focus was already established

[nocturne night]

And not shackling destroys all point of Anguish by letting you get free shit while not being challenged

[finite flint]

not challenged enough maybe

but it's still one turn slower

than no anguish

(or two)

[nocturne night]

My condolences. I have no idea how you sleep at night

[finite flint]

I mean doubling time from 9 seconds to 18 is still a lot harder

when we are talking doing something 9000 times per year or more

[languid adder]

Devaluating progress in threat of punishment is a safe way to show a community you dint give a damn.

Devaluating progress for goodies, or at least something in return, is a good way to show your veterans that are "too strong" for your ideas that you care.

I dont get why people barely talk about this.

[plush nimbus]

I shared the refineries issues, then the tower/DM issue and had to be ok knowing it was there waiting for enough influent people to share how it is an issue for the game. I really hope my dear ORN friend will carrefully take a look at this rhetorical garbage

[timber furnace]

So, if we follow the logic of "effort being punished" we will need to limit the proofs per Day like fishing, because what goudine described sounds more like fishing instead of ref

[finite flint]

refinery issue was proper to fix as it overwhelmed all other options too much

deleting content in a way , for efficient players

[languid adder]

You are actively playing the game. Youre asking for a mobile game energy system basically, and thats terrible ^^"

[finite flint]

this isn't similar

[languid adder]

Quite the opposite of what is aud

Said*

[umbral blaze]

I feel like with the state of raid gear farming, (not considering super raids since they can be target farmed) making raids too slow can become an issue

Make super raids slower for all I care, don't touch my normal raids please

[timber furnace]

Just put anguish at 0

[languid adder]

And the talked about luck buff multidrops arent real at ang 8 so far so, so i dont know if they ever...

[finite flint]

you can farm at anguish 0 for drops that's a non issue

endgame is you already have all drops 190+

can we discuss actual endgame?

[languid adder]

Yeah just make ppl turn off the difficulty they asked for because balancing is too much effort.
Great mindset?

[finite flint]

(except of new gear comes ofc)

[raven bane]

Scroll or Korns cost here?

[sinful vapor]

I'm a proponent of lowering unshackled rewards by lowering rewards and costs for ang1-4

[umbral blaze]

I mean, there still is gear farm in the new anguish system, I don't see how this is irrelevant

[finite flint]

(HOA thing) but I have 25m Korns and I stopped maximizing farming for them 2 months ago

no alts involved

with alts Korns are utterly infinite

[timber furnace]

How?

[nocturne night]

For what it's worth, yes, balancing infinite player power is, in fact, too much effort. Because you can't really

[finite flint]

adventurer guild (hoa thing)

[plush nimbus]

Nothing too serious, as even taking this into account, it's just so much better than anything else that's it doesn't mean much. I can just answer you "dungeons needed to obtain the same results" in term of proof (= mats = AL...)

[timber furnace]

Just delete HoA then , problem solved

[finite flint]

with alts (solo kingdom) HOA=orna=infinite korns

[timber furnace]

Dont compare farming Korns from aethric to orna, its different, and again, alts is the main problem

[plush nimbus]

There s already an issue even not talking about alts, alts just make it bigger

[finite flint]

no alts = no infinite raids = no issue

like mnemonics are absurd right now but not being infinite

people don't discuss them

[languid adder]

That is true, but also the infinite exists in calculatable intervalls, that arent following a complicated formula - i would say its possible in Orna's case.
Surely better then current iteration of shackles

[timber furnace]

Well thats true, People using 1983884 Als and staying at anguish 4 is an issue

[sinful vapor]

lower ang1-4 rewards

Lower their costs

[timber furnace]

What?

[languid adder]

+1% stats per ascension level is not complicated imo

[finite flint]

not sure you guys have made the computation of what you fan get for 2 days with mnemonics with all buffs including limited quantity ones

dirong event

[plush nimbus]

Well, my "calculations" was just an exemple of what can be done. It's not like you won't find player able to kill trash raids on higher anguish

[finite flint]

we are talking 5x previous caps

150-400 mats per event

[timber furnace]

If your opponent is to weak when is supposed to be strong then it is a problem

[finite flint]

so 275*4 per mnemonic mats

did you guys realize what that means?

[timber furnace]

That my eyes will Hurt after 1 hour?

[nocturne night]

I have no idea what you are talking about?
You can't have a static enemy's stats remain balanced for everyone, regardless of their ascension. That's what the problem is.
Make them too high, and unascended people can't play the game.
Make them too low, and ascended people steamroll.

You either shackle ascensions so that everyone's on the same foot, or you artificially inflate enemies to match the enemies' ascended stats, which is the exact same thing but it looks different

[plush nimbus]

It's so sad and absurd some dude may at some point remove AL and start again just because it doesn't make sense to keep all those cheese thing in a grinding game

Oh wait

[languid adder]

oh no, that is not what i ment. i had shackles in mind too. My bad.

balancing WITH shackles.

[sinful vapor]

It doesn't just look different, it is different. If enemies were scaled up to the player's AL, the difficulty is no longer about brute force stats; it's about the maluses and strategies

[finite flint]

if AL-ing doesn't provide you an advantage

what's the point of ALing lol

[nocturne night]

If the enemies scale to the player's AL, then you don't have ascensions. Enemies always match you 1:1 - ascending has no difference

[sinful vapor]

Yes

[nocturne night]

That makes it the same as Shackles?

[finite flint]

shackles are worse

[sinful vapor]

I'm not saying that should be the goal of anguish

Shackles do not make ALs irrelevant

[finite flint]

shackles are worse because they resurface class disparities

shackles FORCE efficient players to play the most efficient class NECESSARILY

[timber furnace]

With old shackles the enemies could be way stronger than you, and that wasn't that bad tbh

[sinful vapor]

Shackles require ALs and just limit them beyond a point

[finite flint]

with AL i can play GS because with 40-50 al more it's playable

[languid adder]

Im fully fine becoming weaker, losing power, having the game be cahllening again.
I am thoroighly unhappy that shackles are designed in a middle finger way towards veterans, forcing them to take them or barely gaining rewards - aka threatening to just take them to not suffer punishment.
I am gladly forfeiting power, for the sake of challenge - if those hundreds of thousands of invested hours are not just disabled, but give me SOMETHING for it while i forfeit them.
Better Rates? A new proof for goodies that arent mats? Less lv up costs?
Something. Not nothing.

[finite flint]

with shackles I am forced deity or maybe heretic/beo for some content

top much better than the rest at the same al

[timber furnace]

Ahhh, the problem is you people

[finite flint]

with shackles

you either make stuff doable with the worst class

[timber furnace]

And without is even worse

[finite flint]

which means for the good class it's too easy

or you balance around the best classes/builds

then the rest isn't playable

shackles basically REQUIRE all classes to be balanced which is impossible

[sinful vapor]

Ang2.0 requires ALs. If the enemies were raised up to the player's level, ALs would (probably) not matter. It would be the same as setting everyone to AL0, which is not the same as shackles

Not saying this is a desirable outcome... but it is different