Anguish Live Feedback

[short osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/louder-for-the-people-in-the-back-say-it-shouting-shaking-gif-13309926964275671127

[vocal basalt]

Imo t9s should drop proofs at equal rates as t10s

Either that or some new mini time event where monsters will rush your OT and you'll get horde fights

World farming is a huge part of aethric, but a nearly non existant part of orna. I know the community has some cool ideas to shake it up

[short osprey]

Maybe just the arisen T9s mobs, and then all T9 bosses?

[naive lynx]

I love this. Could build on residences too

[vocal basalt]

Its definitely better than only t10s

[vocal basalt]

Oh yeah, cool idea! Actually making those buildings interact with the game

Like a small remake of the citadel where you can upgrade villagers to join the fights?

[naive lynx]

Yes!

[vocal basalt]

Oh wait summoners wont like this i think lol

Ok i have the solution

./suggest migrate all summoners to aethric

[languid adder]

Please make a suggestion, i wanna upvote it.

[languid adder]

./suggest delete summoners from the game and man in black zap everybody who liked them

[valid mesa]

Hello, I read somewhere that anguish gear level increase automatically summon/follower stat, how does that work ? Is it like a % increase ?

[exotic jasper]

#patch-notes message
its here, 7th bullet point. Idk if anyone has tested the actual stat increase

[fierce cedar]

is anguish last martyr gear only 2%/lvl?

[valid mesa]

Thanks ! I knew it was somewhere, but I have no clue of how it works, if it's actually working

[short osprey]

It is 3% total in beta but doing some math and testing me and a few did on OL (though I don't have any of the gear on live) it seems to be 4% total on live

[umbral blaze]

I mean, odie did say he'll look into only applying the unshackled penalty to anguish level bonuses past ang 4 #1377194080718553150 message

[fierce cedar]

for world farm, which im level 2 +40 proofs, a mode where we can pair up with someone, spectate (or not), and automatically join their world fight, as if in party, would be amazing

right now grinding it i kinda wish my alt were t10, anyway

the leader-dies-fight-over thing has to go if we get anything to make world party battles more common

[bronze plinth]

My issue with new anguish is morelikely the fact that the content itself is not hard, but the progress is "hard" due to how slow it is. Bc you need to do all of the content if you want to focuse on 1 thing but you need demonworking tools so you need to hard farm other paths aswell

[fierce cedar]

are you at lvl 5 yet? seems like it might be hard for towers, dungeons and world, anyway

raids, maybe theyre too easy these days. Idk if we need Balor opening his eye round 1 again tho

[bronze plinth]

No but my als are not that high to make the diff

Soon im at lvl 5

Today if i have the motivation to farm

[fierce cedar]

melancholy and towers going pretty fast for me

[bronze plinth]

I use melancoly proofs for tools atm at lvl 2

But agony is my focuse for going up in lvls

[fierce cedar]

thats raids right?

[bronze plinth]

I think i should farm melancholy at lvl 4 so it gives more proofs tho

[fierce cedar]

i think my % getting aced round 1 will be non zero in lvl 4

[bronze plinth]

Maybe first i go for lvl 4 melancholy>agony 10>torment 10 >melancholy 10

Maybe despair once im done with others

[fierce cedar]

but also i don't want more ascension lvls so idk why i would bother going deep anguish anyway 😂

now if i could bulldoze NPC buildings by spending proofs of anguish...

[bronze plinth]

I want to push high anguish bc i want challenge

I want to see my limits

[fierce cedar]

yup, suppose thats enough

[languid adder]

Any piece that has summoner/follower stats gets 3% per anguish level on it. Act rate excluded

[languid adder]

I was there when it happened, i basically cried of joy, unironically

Currently only actively farming raids cause farming anything else... look i basically play this game as a half time job and i still feel like i have the dirtiest boss making me work overtime looking at current progress rates

[full peak]

Not really, will be easy quite long time.

My common T6 trev staff hit same numbers, need to get ornate T9

[nocturne night]

You might have accidentally recorded audio

[bronze plinth]

Yeah

But yea even my beoA swan hits quite hard in horde

Harder than my cactus

[full peak]

F...

[bronze plinth]

Recorded by XRecorder: https://recorder.page.link/Best

[full peak]

my eyes hurt even watching that 😄

[bronze plinth]

Yea the sleep fkd up alot 🤣

[full peak]

i mean the lags, did you set it to 15 fps or what?

[bronze plinth]

I think its the screen recorder that does that

Happens only when using that

[full peak]

thats what im asking 😅

[umbral blaze]

Ang 2.0 and ss/cs changes might bring in a lot of new deity mains

[full peak]

ss is still best skill for raids anyway, cuz they hit like truck ...and tbh, besides bof or seq.ultima nothing do dmg like it

Shackled fight, AL14

pos status duration amity, so temps actually stay for some time

[bronze plinth]

Nefr diety

[full peak]

I still prefer swash

this is AL8 fight iirc

[bronze plinth]

Nefr swahsy

Jokes aside. Isnt realmstrikes going to lose its effectiveness later due low pen

[full peak]

You will sooner hit the problem that raids will kill you easilly. I can't really swash better raids, they oblirate me in no time.

[bronze plinth]

Hmm i cant imagine a survival issue

But maybe after some lvls i can

[grizzled halo]

So I take it last martyr gear prior ANG 2.0 doesn’t work with current anguish?

[bronze plinth]

Idk but martyr gear is going to be must farm

[umbral blaze]

Morrigan gear is still better but it is probably 2nd place stat wise for weapons

No idea about the armour, I think morrigan might be better since I remember stats being rather imbalanced (as in either having a ton of def and much lower res or vice versa)

[bronze plinth]

I think i have no use for morri, but i am a beomonner tho

All gear with both pet&summon stat are my prio for anguish

Btw do passives like avidity, cd etc scale with anguish

[umbral blaze]

No

[umbral blaze]

Donate them to me

[bronze plinth]

I killed them all

With my masd cleanup

Mass*

[umbral blaze]

Smh 🙂‍↔️

[bronze plinth]

Does summon protection scale with anguish

[full peak]

lol

[bronze plinth]

Imagine 1%per lvl

I mean it would kinda make sense bc celestial weapons lose their usage in anguish so it means summoners lose alot protection

And i think it caps at some point

[sturdy stump]

since a lot of stuff doesnt seem to scale, I think summon protection wont either. Not gonna waste df tools on that tho

[full peak]

hp,mp,def,res,att,mag scale ....and then crazy scale for pet/summon power ...thats all isnt it? 🤷‍♂️

[atomic ermine]

lmao the item becomes worse when upgraded

or is it. you can see a + in front of pet stats, that you don't have in the regular display

[sturdy stump]

its 8+6=14% pet / summon stats

[atomic ermine]

so nothing scale, it's just the anguish special flavor. not confusing at all.

[sturdy stump]

yeah I dont get why it displays all those non-scaling stats in red as well, if they dont even change

I was really hoping VD scaled

[atomic ermine]

you were hoping VD, all you get is negative res and regrets

[full peak]

+3% pet/summon power for ang level.... so if you take 5 gear with pet power, you have +150% pet power on ang10 gears 😴

[bronze plinth]

Correct

But most pets will have pen issues anyways

[sturdy stump]

and it might even scale with AL. At least it does for summons, people have not tested pets yet.

But like, 3% summon stats is a lot less for us than 3% pet stats is for beos, since I think beoa+tamer is +165% pet stats, while gsa+bene is +350% summon stats. The scaling is probably the strongest on beo pets

[bronze plinth]

Even summon stat is stronger on us

[glass mango]

The 3% isnt x1.03?

[sturdy stump]

no, its additive

[glass mango]

[atomic ermine]

summoner would be a real class if we had 2 stats : Base summon stat % (from class) Summon Stat % multiplier (from gear). This way you could really spec your stuff.

But it would make Summoner relevant so don't do it 🔥

[bronze plinth]

And it would kill eos

So dont do it

[atomic ermine]

it would actually be better unless you have negative base summon stats

no wait no negative

just under a certain threshold (100% summon stat i assume)

[bronze plinth]

100% multiplier of 0 is still 0 💀

[atomic ermine]

what do you have at base with beo and bene

[bronze plinth]

And actually we have -80%stats

[atomic ermine]

-80% with bene, doubt

[bronze plinth]

So -80%+130%(bene)

But im not using benefactor atm

[atomic ermine]

ok it would be worse, but it's already sh!t anyways

[bronze plinth]

Actually in anguish eos is kinda scary

[languid adder]

Delete summoner

Morning!~

[bronze plinth]

You do realize that im not a summoner

I just borrow some of their gear

[atomic ermine]

https://tenor.com/view/same-gif-8650053

[languid adder]

That was never the point! Just delete summoner

[bronze plinth]

Fair

[languid adder]

And deep dungeons, give us back goblin fortresses, or fix them DX

[sturdy stump]

why delete summoner?

[bronze plinth]

I like my deep dungeons

Its just sad that i need to grind a year before they are usefull again

[languid adder]

Just cause honestly why not

[languid adder]

Concept great. But, too few floors, cursed progression requirements, basically no loot, weird HoA walk in Orna, clunky map, holding pickaxe gets stuck reliably, Guild EXP gain once got nerfed hard and never addressed, etc.
Most abandoned concept in the game, even more then summoners.
Would love to see them be fun, idea is really good!

I should probably make a 🧵 at some point about it, if it bugs me this much, what it definitely does

[bronze plinth]

Gob fort was like endless levels of orns with no effort

Only thing you needed was orn gear+ anguish+boosters

[tacit ridge]

Gob forts weren’t as profitable, but they were the only way gilga could consistently farm orns

[umbral blaze]

It was basically a slower but steady orn farm than endless but you also got eods

[vocal basalt]

Must be nice having a real stat passive 🥺 🥺

[vocal basalt]

100%. I used to do those all the time

[nocturne night]

Must be nice having a stat passive

[sturdy stump]

gsh: am I a joke to you
yes you are

also gsh passive doesnt even work rn

[umbral blaze]

||gsh||

[vocal basalt]

You guys get to pet 5 squirrels at once, thats enough privileges 😡

[nocturne night]

What's a gsh? never heard of it

[short osprey]

Grand Summoner Hydrus Beowulf Hydrus

[exotic jasper]

it thought you dualwielded celestial weapons for a second

[bronze plinth]

Wait untill summon stats scale via anguish

[fierce cedar]

just need +50% summon strength on the rift relic accessory, usable by all classes

[bronze plinth]

Why would you need that

[grave fulcrum]

thats a big mess of passives

[wooden trail]

Any advice on getting despair tokens faster

[languid adder]

Im already upgrading distorted gear to basically become a bootleg beowulf, i can finally fullfill my Deity Tamer fantasy

[upbeat star]

Make suggestion that the Berserkers have twice as many tokens.This will help solve the problem of despair.

[short osprey]

Use your affinity candles + gear that boosts monster encounter rate

[pulsar scroll]

Two feedback points from me:

• Despair proofs seem hard to come by. I personally think the drop rate should be adjusted to bring it a bit more in line with other content forms.
• Ive just reached shackles, and the penalty feels quite extreme as a high AL player. I personally think that should be rebalanced. At the moment Im inclined to stay at Anguish 4 indefinitely.

[languid adder]

Ease it, not solve

The only anguish content im fully happy with rn is raids! Everything else could use a bit of love.
Gonna spend a few hundred hours in it regardless before i see any profit on it, so...

[naive lynx]

Shackles definitely need a rebalance. Id even be fine with shackles but upping instead of 3 per anguish like say 5-6. Won't take an eternity to get back to our ALs on all content but still keep good difficulty

[pulsar scroll]

Yea something like that might be helpful. Even at that rate, the increase in difficulty would outpace the ALs.

Alternatively the max ALs in Anguish could start at the players current AL, and then each Anguish level could reduce the max ALs further.

[naive lynx]

That second option has a lot of math involved if I'm understanding right haha

[pulsar scroll]

It could be complicated or simple. As an example, it could be that Ang 5 limits your ALs to 95% of your ALs. Ang 6 would then limit your ALs to 90%, Ang 7 to 85% etc (these numbers are just examples.)

[nocturne night]

Fwiw, I do feel like the difficulty outpacing the ascensions is intentional. They want Anguish to be semi-infinite, but not actually infinite.

[pulsar scroll]

Yea I totally agree with the underlying principle. It makes sense and it's good design.

My worry is that it seems to go from 0 to 100 real fast 😅

[full peak]

Dungs not? I'm still fine in dungeons as Deity. Potion, snotra, mimic and zerk from pet = 80k with swan. Add passive and temps and I'm hitting ~300k normally, with everything on up to 550k. 🫡

[nocturne night]

Dungeon shackles are entirely fine. You might have to like, use a buff or two, but you can still clear just fine

Even 4->5

[full peak]

Well, I'm takling about shackled dungs.

[nocturne night]

Yeah same

I just feel like people are too used to doing things without buffing

[full peak]

Or just taking highest dmg everything and still nothing kill them. Now you need to actually put smth defensive.

[thin storm]

Is Great Pegasus not giving Proof of Despair?

[full peak]

It does

[naive lynx]

I played the dungeons in beta quite extensively and the buffing imo isn't the issue it's taking over a ridiculous amount of time to get to use the power that I've gained over the years. Even unshackled in beta around Ang50 was getting super rough for AL 100+. I'd just like to use what I've earned a bit earlier while keeping difficulty. And forget towers probably aren't happening by the time I become unshackled we won't be able to run that difficulty fully buffed or not and won't be worth it speed wise at that point

[thin storm]

thank you, i guess is my bad luck 😦

[naive lynx]

I think even giving a slight more ALs to shackles would solve the high AL I've earned over the years situation.

Start at 5. Everytime you go up instead of 3 it's 5 🤷.

[pulsar scroll]

Yea I do think that having high ALs should still be rewarded somehow. A lot of effort has gone into these.

Its not a deal breaker for me, but it would be better I think.

[naive lynx]

Same. I just partially don't agree with being "punished" for what I've worked for. I didn't abuse refineries, don't abuse alts (minus for WVs), and played fairly casually over the years. Not saying a big reward for higher tiered players, but those are the ones who have stuck with the game forever mostly and get hit the most. I'm all for slowing the game down and adding difficulty but I shouldn't have to spend ages to get what I've rightfully earned fairly.

[nocturne night]

I still don't personally see where one gets punished?

There is no punishment for being high AL.

There is a "not being rewarded for being high AL", but that's not punishment - just lack of reward.

[naive lynx]

How do you not? I can't use what I've earned over the years for MONTHS for one path on casual play

That's punishment

[raven bane]

I am concerned that this soft/hard cap is well under my AL threshold.

[nocturne night]

Punishment would be if you as a high AL were somehow worse off than someone with no AL

(In my view)

[naive lynx]

Yes in your view. Mine and others I'm being punished by not being able to use what I've earned. It's like if you're at work doing a great job and all sudden you boss says hey we are cutting your pay to slow down your hard work

[nocturne night]

In beta I was capable of tackling content at around anguish 37 which is around where my AL105 evens out

[pulsar scroll]

I think it's a semantic difference really

[raven bane]

Yeah , in my beta experience, things were very hard around 50, which is 20 before my AL evens out.

[nocturne night]

You got some chunky ascensions huh

[raven bane]

Yeah a few

[sonic summit]

Odie stated that anguish 25 was the soft cap

So it makes sense for it to be very hard around 50

[raven bane]

Does it make sense as far as limiting rewards? Yes, but it plays into the concern I think me and some others have here that the system stops accommodating AL after a certain point.

[nocturne night]

Genuine question, since I doubt this question has the same answer for different people:

why do you ascend?

[livid sonnet]

i thought odie said Anguish 50 was a soft cap

[nocturne night]

25 is soft cap, because it's the ~same as old 50

[naive lynx]

With this system there's no point to anymore lol why even play Orna for its most pivotal gameplay mechanic in terms of power? Can't spend proofs on mats to AL because I need to level paths to even use my ALs.

No point to focus on it at high AL rn*

[full peak]

And well, everybody has to focus on leveling up ang.

[naive lynx]

That's what I mean

[full peak]

And when you reach point where you can buy more ALs, you will do.

So you spend some time catching, same as everybody, whats wrong with that?

The ppl without ALs currently runnign that system will end sooner than you.

Cuz they also need minimum AL to buy next level.,

[naive lynx]

Kills casual play for us that don't spend as much time for what we've earned.

[full peak]

So you are AL100+ and call yourself casual? Okay 😅

[naive lynx]

Listen I'm fine with shackles. It just needs adjusting imo. That's literally all I've been saying

[naive lynx]

I've been playing for over 5 years. ALs are not hard to get anymore. Yes I'm casual

Casual, not filthy casual lol

[nocturne night]

Do you actually have to focus on levelling anguish up?
Most of its rewards aren't that tangential.
Anguished gear only works in anguish.
The "big" rewards are bonus luck for raids, bonus tower shards for towers, and proofs to spend on materials (though you'll be spending proofs on levellups instead)

I personally only ascended because I had nothing else to do. I know this isn't everyone's opinion so I expect not to have most people agreeing with me.
Anguish is a different kind of progression - one that asks just how far can you push. One that you can't necessarily bruteforce with infinite stat growth from ascension

[naive lynx]

Yes you have to focus on leveling anguish. Why use it on mats when there's no point to AL rn. Maybe buy tools here and there but still getting higher Ang outweighs that

[nocturne night]

What are you hoping to get out of anguish?

[full peak]

Well, since you are casual, why to care about ALs rather than new content that actually require a bit of thought?

[storm wadi]

The argument for AL's no longer being worth pushing doesn't make much sense considering ang 50 with 1.0 could be cheesed with relatively low ALs

[naive lynx]

I was for this. Again for crying out loud. I don't want to get rid of shackles, I would just like it tweaked

[storm wadi]

You still need high ALs to be competitive pvp wise. For PVE high ALs hasn't done anything for a while now

[naive lynx]

We arnt talking 1.0 anymore

[storm wadi]

Right, but that's where the comparison comes from

We're used to the system 1.0 introduced. This is just a new game mode with a challenging feature

[naive lynx]

Feel like I'm talking to brick walls lol.

[storm wadi]

It's just a silly argument. You need ALs to progress in anguish after a certain point. Does that mean you can slow down the AL grind? Yea maybe

[raven bane]

IMO I think just wait to see if the change comes through to apply shackles just to growth... but I do understand Sid's point. A lot of high AL people want hard content for their AL. I think people saw this system as a good opportunity to get that. There already exists hard content for low-mid AL range, its just the regular content. In this iteration of the system, its a big when/if that content will come.

[naive lynx]

No one here sees what I'm really even talking about. Just want what I've worked for over the years and a slight balance to shackles. Why is this so hard to see?

[pulsar scroll]

This is how I feel. Shackles are fine (Id even say they are a great mechanic given the stated goal.) I think they are just a bit out of balance currently.

[nocturne night]

I've spent this whole time trying to understand your point of view 🥹

A rebalance of shackles is a likely outcome in the near-ish future.
I think odie stated at some point that he might want to decouple shackles from the ascension requirement, so that he has a bit more freedom on choosing how much shackle to apply

near-ish because, as I believe I've stated many times, anything that makes anguish easier is likely to take a while to come to fruition, since one of the main concerns is a repeat of anguish 1.0 - aka releasing as a difficult endgame challenge mode, and making it easier and easier and more and more rewarding and whoops now it's just free rewards for no challenge

[naive lynx]

I said a shackle slider with risk vs reward was a good idea. I'm down for this. Gives me an option to use what I've earned to an extent and not just get uh basically nothing lol

Also making any tier monster drop proofs to a certain extent would ease my opinions as well.

Like 9 and 10. Not like 1-4 lol

[atomic ermine]

for me when first presented, shackles were for those who want to go a step further. A way to sacrifice your investment in AL to gain more rewards. Turns out it's a mandatory system the make sitting at ang4 a viable option rather than progressing to level 5.

[fierce cedar]

just stay at 4 and ignore the leaderboard

no problem

[sonic summit]

I don't think new anguish was supposed to be a new efficient content to farm AL, but a difficult content. If your goal is to farm a lot of AL towers, fishing and memories still exist, you can even do them in anguish 4 for more rewards ! But going deep anguish is a different goal than farming ALs.

[raven bane]

Not saying this is the case as we haven't seen much at high end, but I don't think it should be the case that low-difficulty and/or low attention content is more effienct than difficult content.

Part of why the studio moved off Ang 1.0 in the first place.

IMO currently agony feels very rewarding and high attention, which is why I think it hit the right mark.

[fierce cedar]

its not going to be more efficient

[sonic summit]

The rewards don't always have to be ALs

You have shiny gear, tankiers enemies and nice auras, and it's not like you will be able to use any curency on mats soon when you look at the price of leveling up

[sinful vapor]

Shackles should probably just be removed from anguish 50 and higher

Maybe lower than that, idk

[raven bane]

Honestly not a bad idea as far as adjustment, shackles grow wider as the levels go up until a point where its like well you probably need a lot to push past this.

[sinful vapor]

Whatever point the maluses are nuts enough that ALs just won't ever brute force the content

[sonic summit]

It would make anguish 50 easier than 49

[nocturne night]

There's never a point where ALs will "never" bruteforce it. That's kind of the problem with infinite scaling lol

[sinful vapor]

For someone with 200 ALs or whatever, yeah

[nocturne night]

But if odie does do this, high enough anguish might have shackles high enough that realistically they might as well not exist

[nocturne night]

Which for the record does exist

[raven bane]

Yeah nevers not the best qualifier, but late game AL take like several weeks, so I think it would be reasonable after a point.

[sinful vapor]

Yeah I know

I think at some point the maluses force active play regardless of AL, but maybe I'm underestimating the power of +stats

At what AL does someone 0 out most attacks from ang50?

[raven bane]

Id agree based on experience, even with 190 AL Anguish 40 required a decent level of attention.

[nocturne night]

The only maluses that would force that are Accuracy and SecondChance

[raven bane]

The positive buff falloff too, and you just have to really pay attention to fallen realmshifters after a certain point

[sinful vapor]

What AL does someone need to run ang 50 buffless??

[fierce cedar]

why

[nocturne night]

Does it matter? The premise is "regardless of ascension"

Could be AL 1000

[sinful vapor]

If there's an AL that qualifies, then that would certainly be a reason to shackle at that ang lvl

The harder ang50 is, the less shackling is needed

[sinful vapor]

This is a data point for easing shackles at higher ang

[fierce cedar]

as if shackles isnt the game mode

[sinful vapor]

It isn't, actually. Shackles are just the upper bounds of the gamemode

If those bounds are set too low, the experience suffers

Should ang 10 have a shackle at 5ALs? Obv not, and it seems like the high ang shackles may be set too low

Not my problem with my 49 ALs but still

[atomic ermine]

current form of shackles looks like "we made a mistake with AL, so we're removing it in endgame"

[livid sonnet]

i thought shackles felt more like "Ascension has been longer than this system so we want you to enjoy the early levels as well" but unshackled in punishier for higher ALs and ofc higher ALs would probably just want to reach that sweetspot as early as possible and continue with their lives

[grave fulcrum]

Well anguish 50 is like Al 150 so makes sense

[grave fulcrum]

I do personally agree with this and has they have changed refineries much sooner than they did als wouldn't be as crazy I think max lvl would be closer to 200 for people who play 16 hrs a day 7 days a week instead of brye having 300 and a few others I think being close to that al

[naive lynx]

Ehhh I wouldn't go based off the requirement to get there since it's a collective requirement of all classes lol

[grave fulcrum]

Wydm

Collective requirement?

So like if you have 30 als on 4 classes you have 120 als to the system?

[naive lynx]

Anguish 50 isn't a straight requirement of 150. I can be 93 on one and have 5-10 on other classes and it's unlocked

[nocturne night]

Yeah but the requirement is supposed to be an indicator of the power you should be at. The shackles are roughly at the requirement level, too

[grave fulcrum]

Oh that's poorly implemented and should require 150 als on one character

Class*

[naive lynx]

I was just stating something but yes, should be the average haha

[nocturne night]

Which is to say if you "cheat around" the requirement level by spreading your ascensions, you're just needlessly shooting yourself in the foot in terms of difficulty

[naive lynx]

Not if you're Deity 💪💪

[grave fulcrum]

Some might call it adding to the difficulty without having the ability to compete it

[naive lynx]

#addshackleslider

[nocturne night]

I read that as
Adds Hackle Slider

[grave fulcrum]

I do like the idea of a slider as it would very much make the game challenging for each person and then when you do party the rewards are player based, based on the slidy bar

[livid sonnet]

Adds Hackles Lider ?

[naive lynx]

It's up for interpretation at this point

My profile helps now

[grave fulcrum]

That could lead to issues with 1 person always carrying and another being at max rewards so maybe make it a party setting for the host to set and the party is set to the same as host (if you go low everyone goes low if you go high everyone goes high)

That or make it similar to how the anguish lvl is whatever the highest level everyone joining has. So if 1 person goes with 50% rewards everyone gets that regardless of host or other undetermined variables

[naive lynx]

Regardless of slider the lowest Ang would always take priority to prevent shenanigans

Rewards are divided up under a individual basis per usual

Just a lot of math

[sinful vapor]

I think a slider for shackles is the best case scenario for the system

Set the baseline rewards at whatever level makes the most sense. If the targeted AL for anguish 5 is 8, then setting your shackles to 8 would give the baseline rewards

If you slide your shackles over to 10, you'd get slightly lowered rewards. If you slide it over to 4 (or if you only have 4 ALs to begin with) you'd get increased rewards

[grave fulcrum]

So the issue with that is if you have an Al 150 running at full Al in ang 15 then the person with ang 15 gets full rewards at recommended Al so that's a cheese specially for people who alt and have 2-3 accounts with 50-70 als so to make it non abusable there needs to be a balance at the least rewards or make everyone in party run at recommended Al or get rewards of least profitable party member

[naive lynx]

Then we can make shackle locks for party play. You get as many as the lowest party member as well. Fixed

[grave fulcrum]

I disagree with the being able to get a higher anguish than Al tho so if it's recommended for Al 5-8 inorder to unlock you must be Al 5 minimum and if you have more you can change to use less to get slightly more rewards

[naive lynx]

I agree with this post. Pretty much how I imagined it

[pulsar scroll]

Yea I like the slider idea. Let the people decide for themselves.

[naive lynx]

Instead of a static 5% reward at full we have the option to move it around

[grave fulcrum]

That's what I was saying above either make it so that everyone follows the hosts anguish profits/ or the lowest amount of rewards for the whole party

[naive lynx]

Gotcha, agreed

[sinful vapor]

Why do you disagree with allowing people with low ALs attempt higher anguish

[naive lynx]

Hosts profits would be wild at low AL though lol

[sinful vapor]

Or using low amounts of ALs

I would love to see someone attempt ang 20 with 0 ALs or something like that

[naive lynx]

This would solve the efficiency issue of people staying at 4 or static anywhere as well. It's what's best for you with your gearing not the whole population of the game

[sinful vapor]

(You already can try this with current system btw)

[sinful vapor]

I think NF's concern is people picking and choosing what exact level they can farm at the best

I don't feel like that's a huge deal but maybe it is

[naive lynx]

That's what I mean though. Have it not static would allow people to move it around. Eventually people will outgrow that "favorite level"

[sinful vapor]

It's not just a matter of favorite levels, but farming efficiency

[naive lynx]

I agree. It's gonna happen to some extent no matter what they do honestly. Just got a have ways to lessen it if that's what they want

[sinful vapor]

They don't want ang2.0 to become a farming simulator like 1.0 was

[naive lynx]

That's what I meant haha. Hence the quotes

[sinful vapor]

I'm not sure it's avoidable

[naive lynx]

I'm not sure if it's avoidable in speed but it is in gameplay. Like if I'm at ang46 dungeons or whatever and buffing taking my time etc. I get 100% proofs drops for say 3-4minutes of work. I can do 3-4 dungeons approximately the same speed at a lower level. Some see that efficiency I see it as less buffing etc higher but more risky. The proofs rates going up does change how fast you go. Honestly if you hate buffing etc as much as I do the "harder" content is more viable

More efficient mentally than actually playing. My windtamer build with harder content shackled isn't a terrible amount slower than a swansong build at lower Ang.

[naive lynx]

But agreed here. Someone is going to figure out the most efficient meta no matter what they do. It's inevitable in every game in existence minus say a rouge like because the pure randomness

[grave fulcrum]

Because the current system is set up to be progression based on Al and x difficulty

[naive lynx]

For geared people this changes nothing though. It just unnecessarily slows big ALs down 🤷.

Honestly if anything for big ALs and geared people it's more of a pain than difficulty. I didn't have any change in difficulty in beta simply because I had the gear, until around 45+ where maluses and mob stats just get super high

Except raids. Those ults get nasty

[sinful vapor]

On another note, it's pretty frustrating that I can't buy tools today because I'm low on proofs of torment

[naive lynx]

Torments are the one drop I wish they would allow t9s to drop. Specifically because towers are more limited and their pricing isn't any different than others.

Hopefully they allow purchases with any proofs soon or at least see how it goes

[sinful vapor]

Maybe at least for the tools

[naive lynx]

Could side with that. Not gonna use it for mats anytime soon so 🤷

[fierce cedar]

orna isnt roguelike?

[naive lynx]

Never said it was?

If anything you just backed my statement lol

[fierce cedar]

oh, sorry, let me rephrase

you think Orna isnt roguelike? Im shocked

[naive lynx]

Orna is ridiculously far from a rouge like lol

[fierce cedar]

oh

[grave fulcrum]

I could see t9 dropping for t10s being possible and keeping it relatively under control. Currently I think raids are too profitable at low anguish which should be changed a bit to better fit the pricing for everything but everyone like it being more profitable

[naive lynx]

Agreed. Even if t9 was 1/2 your current chance to drop. Raids went from nothing massive gains. I think it should float in-between what It was and what it's at. It was too low before but now it's crazy high and with alts people can abuse the summons and scrolls.

[fierce cedar]

path of despair is currently path of alts

[grave fulcrum]

The alts only gotta be t10 with anguish lvl 1 too since they give between 0-8 at Ang 1

[fierce cedar]

due to no horde and bad pricing for despair proofs at the store

but idk if anyone would pick to do it. but if you did pick to do it, use an alt

[grave fulcrum]

Honestly path of despair is the only one I currently dislike I like the dungeon rate and towers / monuments is decent ish but raids give to much making it worth more time and world farming Is simply mind numbing

[naive lynx]

If despair had the random hordes that was suggested it'd be worth. Especially with event mobs in rotation. Right now it's just what it's name is lol

[fierce cedar]

dungeon and tower rate seems fast

im lvl 2 and get a proof every floor almost, about the same as old anguish 10-15

[grave fulcrum]

For dungeons or towers

[fierce cedar]

ywa

[naive lynx]

Dungeons will always be quick just from the sheer number of speed and mobs. Towers are okay but wish there was a tiny bit more

[grave fulcrum]

I think dungeon ang gear chance is a bit high to start

[fierce cedar]

every time I see Anubis in a tower thats +1-3 proofs

[naive lynx]

Yes but dungeon gear is pretty static and not amazing compared to other stuff so it's kinda whatever imo

[grave fulcrum]

The proofs are fine as is the gear chance is a tad high

[fierce cedar]

we probably took different initial paths

but despair lvls are 😂😂😂 way more time intensive

but then again

[grave fulcrum]

It just makes grinding higher anguish easier tho eg you can get the gear required much quicker and then it's just running dungeons to get proofs

[fierce cedar]

also, despair boosts orns, exp and luck for world stuff

but what gear did you get from world mob?

only fomor

[grave fulcrum]

I do think there should be an anguish thing for pvp that only effects rewards for you and the added stats are based on the player fighting the AI instead of AI fighting player

[fierce cedar]

agony path boosts raid gear - obv priority 1

dungeon path boosts boss weapons - second place cause theyre more common and less annoying than towers

[grave fulcrum]

For HOA world farming is the easiest way to get orns and exp and gold so you'd farm this while farming proofs

[fierce cedar]

((honestly idgaf about hoa))

[grave fulcrum]

Well I'm mainly an HOA player now so that's where most of my opinion comes from

[fierce cedar]

we need that tag next to our faction!

[grave fulcrum]

And I do know that HOA is the casual version of orna so my opinions may not always apply to orna due to the difference in difficulty and time spent

[fierce cedar]

yea, same, im not trying to carry a debate with an HoA player, cause i know the games are different and i got 0 exp w/ it

(like, idgaf in a very neutral way)

[naive lynx]

Ehhh not dungeon gear. Most dungeon gear is mediocre at best. Best sets are from raids obvs

Could make a little easier I guess but yeah

[short osprey]

I actually started tracking what I earn per tower this morning!

Torment 7 - Shackles on
50/50 Prom: +76
50/50 Selene: +91
50/50 Oceanus: +68
50/50 Eos: +91
0/50 (in progress) Themis: --
25/50 (in progress) Selene: +45

This is hitting every single T10 pack (guardians & strays)

[naive lynx]

I guess that's not atrocious?

Not good not bad lol

[fierce cedar]

thats a lot

whats the lvl req for 8?

id record the # of proof, proof drop %, and the % of current anguish lvl graduation requirement

[grave fulcrum]

The requirements to get high anguish are an anguish piece at the same anguish level as current so when running a horde dungeon and averaging 1 every 4-6 dungeons that's a bit fast and makes running dungeons about proofs instead of an anguished gear item and that dungeon anguished item counts for all anguish content not just the area you secured it

[naive lynx]

Oh I got it, sorry I thought you meant just power in general

[umbral blaze]

Wait what, 142 als? I remember you being 108 like a week or two ago. (Did you finally escape the avalon ore curse)

[agile charm]

Pretty sure the ascension level requirements are across all classes, not just your highest class

[short osprey]

Yeah is across every class

[old aspen]

Where are we at with the shackle discussion? Do we as a community need to get bullet points up? How we doin on that front?

[vocal basalt]

Shackles feel overwhelming mainly because we're used to curbstomping everything imo.
Im 100% not against it 🙋

[fierce cedar]

i heard an argument recently that online community is an oxymoron

[languid adder]

I mean progression speed wise. Gameplay is fun so far.

[languid adder]

Grinded thousands of hours for my AL.
Now have to grind a few hundred of hours until i can fully use them again in a system that replaced the one that discriminate you at all for having them.

[nocturne night]

That's not exactly punishing you any more than it is punishing the others though is it?

Be it AL25 or AL250, everyone's shacklin'

[languid adder]

Its punishing in the sense that i am either forced to drop a lot of work to get full rewards while someone who barely put that effort in would get the same rewards as i am.

[sinful vapor]

It brings high AL players down to the same level as newer players

That can be seen as punishing

[languid adder]

To the question why i ascend, power. A constant grind, something that always goes up.
PvP & PvE

[nocturne night]

Though when the time comes, in a few anguish levels, they will need to ascend to carry on up the anguish levels, whereas you can just keep going

They get stuck, you keep going - you are "rewarded" for having grinded ascensions beforehand

[languid adder]

For what did i grind thousands of hours to need hundreds now until i can fully unlock that potential again, exactly.
What thought went into that system.

[languid adder]

I get that, but that still underplays how hard it is to get to that point. And i think a little more for having done all this would be appropriate.

[sinful vapor]

That's really not a reward

[nocturne night]

I'd argue part of the reward of having grinded ascensions is very much the fact that, well, you're still highly ascended.
You got to use your power everywhere outside of Conqueror's guild, and you're still free to use it outside Anguish
(And inside Anguish, once your shackles keep up)

[nocturne night]

We'll have to disagree there :p

[languid adder]

We did not get the chance to progress with the system. We just have a worse experience until we reach the point where our ALs are unlocked again.

[sinful vapor]

Saying that we got to use the power we already grinded for is a reward is like taking someone's money and rewarding them by giving it back

[nocturne night]

Your experience is not any worse than anyone else's

[sinful vapor]

That I agree with - it's a level playing field

[languid adder]

Which would be fine if catching up would not mean a good thousand hours combined for my AL100.
There really went basically zero thought into high players and ang 2.0 and i still cant fathom that that happened.

[nocturne night]

There was, in fact, more than zero thought put into high ascension players.
If there was no thought, then there would be no shackles at all.

The whole point is for anguish not to be blitzed through

[languid adder]

Not blitzed through is fine.
Still, i dont want it to be a full time job to feel like my ALs get respected again.

Shackles would not be nearly as terrible if progression wouldn't be so awfully slow

[sinful vapor]

Getting to use something we already grinded for is not a reward of the anguish system.

You can't take away the ALs and say that anguish is rewarding you by giving them back slowly over time

[nocturne night]

Fwiw, shackles not disabling 4-and-under rewards has hit beta

[sinful vapor]

Even if I have already been using them in other places - that's irrelevant to anguish

[languid adder]

Its not in full yet? Oh.

[nocturne night]

I'm not saying getting ascensions is a reward, I'm saying not having to grind for them is.
Ascending is a requirement for going up anguish levels.
Someone who is too low ascension is literally incapable of going up an anguish level. You don't have to worry about that. That is the reward I speak of

[languid adder]

If anguish is supposed to be this all encompassing endgame experience, give us the experience we grinded for, not a watered down one we have to grind harder then anything else BEFORE we got the experience we all wanted.

[sinful vapor]

"Not having to grind for them is a reward"... of my grind. Not of anguish

It's irrelevant to the conversation

[nocturne night]

Uh, yeah? It is in fact a reward of your grind

[languid adder]

I wanna fight the amorri with her 200mil hp that oneshots me if i dont press WoO turn one.
I dont wanna pray the game still exists in 2028 when i can.

[nocturne night]

Why would a new system come out and just give you free rewards for having had ascensions?

[sinful vapor]

I'm not saying it needs to reward me

You're saying it is rewarding by allowing me to not have to grind for ALs

The system feels punishing because it takes away ALs. You countered by saying "actually, you are being rewarded because you don't have to regrind ALs"

[languid adder]

Not free rewards, but the same way towers were easier for people who ascended before them, and they could get to power easier, i would love to see my ascensions helping me to reach the point in timr designed for me to be with my ALs in a reasonable time.

Low ALs dont feel the impact, they grow with the system, thats what its intended to be.
High ALs just get a big middle finger woven in their face, by making them go extremely slow, on a fraction of their power, just to MAYBE reach to point in progression thats designed for them.

I can not embellish that, thats definitely the worst game design orna has ever seen.

[sinful vapor]

Well the "big middle finger" part is a bit of embellishment

[languid adder]

Nobody in their right mind should say "ah yes, i grinded for this a few thousand hours, now lets grind a thousand more until im allowed to use it again in a system that replaced one that respected them from the getgo."

Thats just artificial content.

[sinful vapor]

Yes and no. The intent of the system is to have a slow grind that is less rewarding than 1.0

Anguish isn't supposed to be a farming method, at least not by design

[languid adder]

Which is, by concept, not necessarily bad. Its not great, if put in a game that has grinding aspects, but its manageable.

[languid adder]

I still dont understand why i would take a system that runs for years and then make the decision to change it up and completely redesign its purpose and replace ot with content that, if not supposed to be rewarding, asks for an extremely unreasonable amount of active grind.

[sinful vapor]

Anguish 1.0 was deemed to be a bit of a failure, as it allowed for easy grinding

[nocturne night]

I just can't really see a system that puts everyone on the same level as a system that punishes people - especially when it allows some of the people to climb faster.
It's an equalizer. Yes, you're worse off than before, but you're not worse than anyone else.
You get to join the race for new content in as equal footing as you can. Not unlike any game's new DLC or expansion or whatever.
Not to mention, Anguish's main purpose is to be a challenge mode. The rewards for the effort are meant to be somewhat minimal. It's not going to be as good as 1.0 - they were unhappy with 1.0 for that reason - which also means that if you don't like the challenge, you can just do other activities for bigger profits.
That being said, I know that the "Just don't interact with it" argument isn't a very friendly one. But it is, in part, also an argument that is shared by the studio. Guilds are meant to be optional to interact with.

I'll probably have to hop out though because I feel like I've been talking in circles for the past few days, which isn't exactly productive.
I'm aware my point of view is uncommon, and I am not trying to invalidate your points of view. Merely expressing my own.

[languid adder]

Not seeing it was good. Just not as bad as current ang 2.0
While ang 2.0 has the potential to surpass 1 with a big empty line inbetween them, the way it got releases and the philosophy it follows, it will most likely just take away anguish 1.0 like deep dungeons took away goblin fortress (cant much ppl miss crystal cave)

[sinful vapor]

Just keep in mind that equity is not a desirable outcome to anyone that has already put in a lot of work into surpassing others

Not to trail off into economics - just saying that getting more taken away from you so that you're even with others never feels good and isn't exactly fair

[languid adder]

So to word this as nicely as possible, anguish 1.0 was a good idea, and got replaced with a bad oney that follows a terrible design philosophy and contradicts heavily what orna has become over the years?
Got it. So should not have trusted and stayed 1.0, and then just never interacted with the guild in the first place.

It does not at all fit into a game that has a leaderboard and an infinite power grinding system if thats the real philosophy, while other content tries to respect those things.

A lot of people dont speak up about it. Guess they wont regardless.
But i have to say that i would have loved to stick to 3.16. Veterans did not win, we just lost.

And if that is the decision that is made, to the ones who poured heart and soul into this, financially support it, and often times spend a good chunk of their life in this gamey then thats a great way to say "leave".

Ill stay away from this thread for a bit until the foresight equipment of people is done reforging.
Wish you all a good night.

[fierce cedar]

rude

[fierce cedar]

surpassing others
in gps & kingdom pvp, ascension stats still count

bof already removed them

tax the rich aint fair
its a game. the pursuit of a goal (like a leaderboard) is often more fun than sitting on one forever.

players making the entitlement argument seem to ignore that they enjoyed "power" that they "earned" in the previous system.

here's an example, I just unlocked DoF in march. its amazing for PvE, and then we get this patch, I get it again for free. I had it for a month, so I got what I paid for.

also seems ignored to me that ascension was way easier before this patch, so if they are highly ascended (anything over 50) they probably got a fat discount

[grave fulcrum]

the thought that went into the system was this was the best way to bridge the gap between extremely high als and low als making it still progression based i personally think currently youre just upset you gotta push 3 buttons again to do content you think should be extremely easy. thats valid but this brings the power creep down making it easier for the developers to give everyone challanging content while still keeping everything an at your own pace

[languid adder]

I get it. Devaluate progress to make balancing easier. Dont care about the veterans, just think about the new player experience. I get it, don't worry.

[languid adder]

I ascended to hundred with refineries i used like twice a week if even, towers, guild raids. If there were easier ways ascending, wasn't aware.

[grave fulcrum]

no theyre putting a way to control the als that got outa hand with the way refineries were theres pleanty of players who couldnt/didnt use refineries to get thier al

[languid adder]

So now they punish all players regardless if they used those things or not? Interesting.

[grave fulcrum]

they dont punish you the make you work to gain what you earned

[naive lynx]

I was one who didnt use refineries to get to 100. Still want shackles reworked

[grave fulcrum]

i agree shackles do need altered

[naive lynx]

exactly, why should I have to work for what was EARNED

[languid adder]

Work again*

[grave fulcrum]

because most players didnt earn it this is also a fat alt check punishing players who used alts to grind angiush

[languid adder]

What is the point in working again for something i already worked for earning?
That is a terrible, terrible design philosophy.

[naive lynx]

Ok well some of us arnt, and alts are being used right now to abuse raid agony. Nothings changed alt wise

[grave fulcrum]

but i think the loadest people that dislike shackles are the people who nolife the game and spend more time playing this than goin anywhere

[languid adder]

So because of systems that withered for years and made people abuse it, the people who didnt get now punished too?

[naive lynx]

If my boss takes away my money that I earned to have to earn it again id be pissed

[languid adder]

Just because a game doesnt balance doesnt mean the people who didnt abuse should be punished regardless. Spray and Pray is a terrible idea.

[grave fulcrum]

have you made an alt for a wv? or how about an alt to grind a specific tier for mats

[naive lynx]

alt for WV is completely different than using alts for scrolls. KRBs, and running dungeons additionally with them

Id be happy to do away with alts and give us WV stones

Different topic though

[grave fulcrum]

but its not its using a wv for dungeons that you dont have to go out to farm

have you used someone elses wv thats actually and alt

[naive lynx]

Ive used others wv yes. Still not the same concept. If im runnig dungeons with friends and raids etc. Its completely different

Cant walk to Europe from America sorry

[grave fulcrum]

mm but youre utilizing alts to run dungeons right?

[naive lynx]

By myself, not with my alt and double dipping back inot the dungeon a second time

[grave fulcrum]

because you need another persons char to get to that spot

[naive lynx]

Itd be the same concept where if i had wv stones i could go do it alone

[grave fulcrum]

i would agree the wv situation needs fixed and so does the way that people create alts

personally id say lets make it so that everyone can only create 1 char per email per phone id

[naive lynx]

I quite frankly think alts should not be allowed and WVs changed, but thats a whole different thing entirley lol

[grave fulcrum]

what that means is youd have to step 1 create an email for every alt

then youd have to have another device to play said account on

and a step further lets make it require 2fa aka a phone number

this would completely destroy alting as people would run out of accounts

and phone numbers

and devices

or better idea

[naive lynx]

People would find a way around if they were hardcore but itd def lower the alt issues with normies

[grave fulcrum]

if your account is using an email

only one account can be active under said email

and then 2fa says you have to have a valid phone number

[naive lynx]

We are deep diving into a non anguish feedbakc topic, but i agree lol

[grave fulcrum]

so now if an account has 2 of the same phone numbers or 2 of the same emails it signals all accounts on that email /phone number/ hardware id that another character is active please exit to the main menu for all accounts

and no this is an anguish toping

because as it was mentioned above people are using alts to farm scrolls

then turning anguish 1 on for them all and droping scrolls

and grinding on thier main account

[naive lynx]

oh they are lol. Theres some ang20+ agony people runnign around already

[grave fulcrum]

so this is an issue in the system

and therefor brings alting and solutions into anguish live feedback because now you have people with the ability to complete content faster than others due to the speed in which they can grind scrolls

[fierce cedar]

so your excuse is, you didnt use the full advantage of the game, so it wasnt easier?

but now because you have a lot of concentrated ascension and someone else doesnt, its not fair to you?

[grave fulcrum]

which also ties into punishing the legit players for things alt players are abusing making it capable of changing shackles along with the ability to complete content at a specific speed

[fierce cedar]

alt players arent prohibit

[languid adder]

I had a wv alt, i used like 3 times about 2 years ago, and no, never used alt grinding, grp play is really unfun

[grave fulcrum]

most of the issues for how players such as myself or people who legitamately play the game not abusing things like refineries or alt scrolls or alt dungeons is we get punished for real party play because of other people abusing the system

[naive lynx]

no but they should be

[fierce cedar]

thats just your opinion tho

[naive lynx]

no its not its a fact

[grave fulcrum]

but it should be alting gives anyone with an alt an edge over anyone who doesnt its not feasible for everyone to alt on orna and most people only have time to play one character

[naive lynx]

its being abused and has been for awhile

just not as bad as refineries and with 2.0 raids its especially bad

[fierce cedar]

by "abused" it sounds like you mean "i dont like it"

[naive lynx]

Not at all

[grave fulcrum]

alting negatively impacts the game and the devs have done several things to punish alt play so that they cant grind more of xyz than a solo player

but that then hurts players who wana grind with a buddy

[languid adder]

The problem is that its super hard to supervise with the resources the devs have
So the game sucks instead cause they still try to balance around an issue they cant fix

[fierce cedar]

ok. people who drive around and play are abusing the game. its unfair to those of us who commute by bicycle

[spiral goblet]

I like orna, if it sucks stop playing 🤷

[grave fulcrum]

its truthfully extremely easy if you have the knowledge of how 2fa works

[grave fulcrum]

actually the game says you shouldnt be operating a vehicle and playing but yk

[fierce cedar]

drive to a park, play the Riftfall, drive to another park, etc

[naive lynx]

sounds like you just dont like it

[fierce cedar]

it sounds exactly like what you said

which is the point. its an opinion

[naive lynx]

Nope mine has legitamacy

[broken pike]

So uh. Anguish gear drops right or do I have to upgrade the first lvl

[languid adder]

Also true, when world raids released, we had it so if you move a certain speed, they weren't visible.
Got removed, not clue why.
We had the foundation for it.
Didn't got pushed

[grave fulcrum]

a simple 2fa would be extremely easy require a phone number and something via hardware and alting could be gotten rid of but would be extremely difficult if they implemented something similar to the way vangaurd works for valorant

[fierce cedar]

lol 🤣 what? you have to be anguish 1+ to get drops yes

[grave fulcrum]

you need to have anguish level one+ on in the content youre running to get anguished gear \

[broken pike]

Ok, just checking lol. Cleared a hell of a lot of raids and dungeons with no anguish gear drops. All set to lvl 1

[fierce cedar]

old raids dont count

[broken pike]

They're all ang raids

[grave fulcrum]

lvl one for raids and dungeons i found to be the most rare with like a 10-12.5% chance so keep going. raids wont drop unless you summoned them in the current anguish level

[fierce cedar]

yeah it drops then, just pray rngesus harder

[naive lynx]

Have to sleep, pleasure arguing and debating with you all ❤️ #LetAbyssBackInMaincord

[grave fulcrum]

agreed with the #

[fierce cedar]

you never debated anything

[naive lynx]

Much love enjoy life, learn some things

[broken pike]

I've been piling scrolls for a year now lol. Enough proofs to level up dungeons and raids, just no gear drops 😆. To towers I go I guess

[languid adder]

Abyss got yeeted!? Oh lol

[fierce cedar]

you just asserted opinion as fact and clearly have no intention of being able to be convinced one way or other

[naive lynx]

Been yeeted for like two years lol

[naive lynx]

lol go rewind all day goodbye

[spiral goblet]

Abyss made their bed haha now they sleep in it haha

[naive lynx]

Hes been behaving for awhile now free him!

[spiral goblet]

Lols

[naive lynx]

You guys cant keep me here I gotta sleep lol later

[grave fulcrum]

just make sure the raids were summoned in anguish lvl 1 or higher. (i found this to be the slowest as i was able to get anguish lvl 2 before getting a anguished gear drop from raids) i found dungeons to be the most fruitful especially bg and votg

[broken pike]

Yeah he was like 15 or something when he got the boot. He's grown up a little lol. Having his builds on the maincord would be nice with all these buff me threads

[languid adder]

Just talked to him a few days ago, its day and night...

[nimble dawn]

Underworld Portals, suposed to be an hard dungeon, it is not, and with anguish 2,0, it's lack of t10 ennemies really shows as it is one of the worse dungeon for proofs

Would love for some t10 variants sprinkled in there

right now it feels like I am either farming anguish or farming scrolls

[exotic jasper]

its good for scrolls though

[grave fulcrum]

good thing its not a t10 dungeon then right

[nimble dawn]

so is battlegrounds? And battlegrounds are one of the best proof rates

unless I am wrong, in my head it's t9 as well

[grave fulcrum]

battle grounds has more nothren forces at t10

and gives nothingmeaniful past being a way to grind godforges

[nimble dawn]

which is a ton of proof drops

[grave fulcrum]

only in the new system

[nimble dawn]

Well yeah that's what I am talking about

[grave fulcrum]

and is the way to get people to run them more allowing for df gear to become gf again

[nimble dawn]

i don,t give a crap about the old one in a group to talk about feedback of the new

Battleground is currently, with valley of the gods, one of the 2 best dungeons to farm anguish proofs

in 2.0

and UW is one of the worse, next to Chaos portal

Chaos portal kinda makes sense due to theming

[grave fulcrum]

votg should be its also the most difficult dungeon battlegrounds gets its proofs as a way to also grind gfs which is needed

battlegrounds is the second most difficult dungeon in the game hense why it has more t10 mobs

[grave fulcrum]

up gives scrolls so thats where its profit is agony instead of melechaly

[grave fulcrum]

chaos portals havent been worth running for like 3 years

[nimble dawn]

Yeah

[grave fulcrum]

but they give scrolls aswell just not as frequently

[languid adder]

Really good orns, great for ornates (benefits anguish), great EoD, good keyback rate

Gives a lot

[vocal basalt]

Hard as fugg too 🫠

[sinful vapor]

Don't move goalposts - this discussion is about Anguish, not pvp or other content. Previously gained ALs are essentially removed from the equation when it comes to anguish shackles. I'm not saying ALs are being removed as a whole, but it is fair to say that ALs are pruned by this gamemode.

Enjoying the power they earned in the previous system does not suddenly become a new reward offered to the player. Your DoF example would be relevant if allegiances took away the spec, told you to regrind the guild xp, and the proponents of this change told you you were being rewarded by allegiance lvl12

To be clear, I'm not saying anguish needs to reward me for my ALs

[fierce cedar]

you grinded asc, farmed & lvled up in anguish 1, and had that experience

no one took your ascension, and now there's a new system and im willing to be its significantly slower to get ascension in this new system

you track that?

(i know some people do)

[sinful vapor]

None of that means the system "rewards" previous ALs

Ang 2.0 is not rewarding past ALs and I'm kind of over people saying it does that

[fierce cedar]

there's clearly two camps, yea

[sinful vapor]

It's somehow being twisted as a selling point of the system

"Well you won't have to regrind ALs to get to the next level!"

That's quite literally the easiest requirement since it's borderline required to overcome the difficulty in the first place, and you can bypass it by adding ALs on other classes

[fierce cedar]

because you already did it doesnt mean its easy

and you did it when it was probably easier

[sinful vapor]

That's not the point

What AL0 is gonna be doing anguish 4

Let alone ang5

[fierce cedar]

me, in tier 8 & 9

im already ang2 in tier 8

[sinful vapor]

Lmk when you're doing ang4

Legitimately curious to see if it's feasible

[fierce cedar]

i did in beta

takes 2 turns but also not buffed

dungeons are dicey but the boosts are def worth it

especially with a carry xD

[sinful vapor]

Seems hard to imagine that people won't outpace the AL requirement of each ang level faster than proof and gear requirements

And by gear requirements, I don't just mean get the drop - I mean farm solid gear to use in anguish

Under t10 is the exception as they can't ascend

[fierce cedar]

yea, i cant see arguing about that point either tho, cause NF obviously has the data to tell exactly how fast people are lvling up

[sinful vapor]

It feels disingenuous to say "well you already grinded your AL for other reasons, so that's part of your reward for Anguish - you have ALs"

It's just not a reward. My grind was just earlier than fresh players

If we wanna talk about AL grind being easier, that's a whole different convo. I for example hardly used 1.0 to grind ALs, I almost couldn't since I mained heretic and pre-rework anguish heretic was kinda just not a thing

[glass mango]

Is there status fade on raids? And if there is, does it make rs corvus useless

[snow sage]

Is there plans to allow us to purify or de anguish some of this gear ?

Maybe let is collect anguish dust, as a topper for food, or combine into tools or crucible? Like Titan Augments ? Archcrafting ? Pretty please 🙏

[snow sage]

And The Anguish pet; perhaps it's BB could boost Anguished rate or proof drop ?

[atomic ermine]

I'd rather keep those kind of bonuses to specs, the pet could have buffs in anguish tho. Giving it the same treatment than stuff (base stats increase that is), synergizing with your highest anguish equipped item.

[full peak]

You feel +3% stats to pet per ang lvl isn't enough? 👀 Also ang maluses not affecting pets?

[atomic ermine]

wait what ? forget what i said, fk'em pets !

[full peak]

Pet/summon items got +3% power for each ang lvl. So if you take full set of 5 items ang10, it is +150% pet power.

[atomic ermine]

are the improved offensive stats included inside the bestial bonds ?

[full peak]

i have no idea, they are not included into AL as far as I've been told, so they are really not that great ...

[atomic ermine]

that's still 3% stats per level. it's like anguish AL with more steps.

[bleak mural]

Share build pls 🥺

[languid adder]

And it honestly is the first time in orna history one is objectively wrong, and it feels like paid actors, and i dont really know what to make of it.
I discussed here so often about various topics of the game and there was always a general consensus people could agree on, now 3.17 shits on progress in an entirely new way and for some reason some people are okay with having to grind for something they already grinded for again, in content that is directly related to said power, and probably the only time you actually need this power now. We got a way to use the might we have, content designed for it, and now we got told "those are plot tokens now, you gonna grind for them again"

[languid adder]

That assumption is most likely the reason people act so nonsensical about this.
Cause they assume people used cheese (refineries and ang 1.0) to archieve anything.
That there is people who genuenly spent hours grinding every single day since then just doesn't fit in their mind.
They just cannot accept that some people earned their power, its envy at best.
And that's why this discussion is so divided.
They are find with people having to double grind because they assume everybody who is high enough to care didn't work for it in the first place.

Bot spoiler, refineries were known for what they do, NF decided to not intervene for 4 years.
Now promising real all-encompassing endgame content and slapping everybody in the face with turning their grind into plot tokens in the hopes nobody played enough to care about that they have to work again to use something they already earned in the new content.

I am not okay with this, i think that's a great way to disrespect your veterans, and is entirely intentional.

[full peak]

those are plot tokens now, you gonna grind for them again

Eh? What? Who took what from you? There is big difference between low AL and you farming new anguish. You need minimum AL to rise the guild to next level - which you have and you can spend all proofs on that. On the other hand - they don't a need to farm their ALs. You can progress much faster then them (as you bought your AL in time of abundance, while they can't farm it so easily).

So yea, I'm comfy. I'm not paid. And I'm also higher AL than you. And I'm against alt & refineries for years. 🫡

I'm also still buffled how this affect you now. You play this game for YEARS. Me myself too. Getting back to high ang levels (and so using my current ALs) will take few-several months. In the perspective on my gameplay time? Who cares. Raid are easy to level up. Dungeon just come in time as usuall. Same would towers (tower income was busted anyway, so this is okay change in income). I never touched world anyway, and imo, so 90%+ of players, so who cares ...

If your only gameplay goal was "hoard massive chunk of materials to rise my ALs", guess this is affecting you, cuz you can't currently do that (and hopefully you won't be able to ever again). I don't mind stopping ascending for like ...even half a year. Becouse why not? I don't need that. I did that for past 3 years. Hey, now I have something else to do ! Hurray !!

[languid adder]

I also am against alts and refineries, i didnt abuse either, not interested in it. I worked for my progress, fully, and I dont accept the philosophy of punishing all across the board.
If you wanna understand how that is punishing, scroll a bit up, others explained it way better then i could.

[languid adder]

Several months for a system that has artificial grinds and is not necessarily fun in its current state, that may not even be rewarding after all if its designed by the true intentions. If im gonna play a game just to play a game then please remove all leaderboards.

Grinding months into a system so it MAY be fun is. Bad.

[languid adder]

If i would get good content, im fine with it! But I didn't so far, and im not happy.
Im glad i got something more then ascend or do completely unrewarding content that makes you feel like your time isnt valued.
This just isnt it. Its horribly slow, and so far, i can't see this system in its current state beeing enjoyable over the novelty of having something "new and exciting"

And im not even talking about rewards, just the progression speed.
Rewards aren't my concern, we have towers

[full peak]

Probably cuz I like to play hard games? Idk. I play the games usually cuz of gameplay. When you just mash the button and sleep during it, or watch netflix, it is really not a gameplay just mindless farm. So this level of difficulty sounds fine to me - you have to actually play the game (as I had to back when I start orna and was weak af, or before ALs). That's why don't feel punished and that's why I feel ok with whole this.

[languid adder]

And i want a hard game too! I just do not want to take forever until it gets hard.

New system is just flawed. And i dont see why people defend it.

It seems more and more people just give up and accept the terrible state its in, i wont. This has the right to be fixed and i will fight until it gets better, at least decent.

[full peak]

It is not hard already at ang5? Or 10? 😅

[languid adder]

Like, making it that anguish 5 unshackled doesn't give less rewards then anguish 4 is a start.

Don't understand where it is tho

[languid adder]

Not really no

Its just mash the same attack button a few times more, and pop one buff more

Its just the exact same experience so far, just takes longer

And on high anguish, it will be the same, you can make it spicy by picking up the hard modifiers, but rn it will just become an unbalanced mess, because enemys with coded strats etc will just get more stats instead of new mechanics or a changeup in what they do.

It's currently just a soft ascension system (anguish items) with a stat multiplier and negative stats

[naive lynx]

It's not, just annoying

[languid adder]

I mean fair what else are you supposed to do?
But rn it feels extremely artificial, and doesn't offer much except a gradual slowdown of progression for the sole sake of taking longer

I like the idea of it taking longer.
If i take now 5 times as long for a raid and get 5 times the rewards (not more, not less, just the same, stretched for the added duration), fully fine with it. I dont like the super short time it takes to kill anything at my power level.

But like, can i please reach that point before 2027?

[spiral goblet]

Probably would be halfway there if all this discord energy was directed at playing

[languid adder]

If its supposed to be difficult, good, make us reach the difficulty in a reasonable speed.
If its supposed to be rewarding, i would get the MONTHS of prep until were there. But it was stated already its not supposed to.

Make up your mind.

[languid adder]

Half hearted comments dont do anything

[spiral goblet]

What does your ss tell me? Lols

[languid adder]

Im not engaging with a broken system until it gets turned into something better, simple as that

Thats why im here.

Feedback.

[spiral goblet]

"Feedback" lols

[naive lynx]

False

[languid adder]

Im sorry if you think this way.

[naive lynx]

Also there is players giving feedback. You haven't done anything but chime in with remarks

#FreeAbyss

[spiral goblet]

I mean you've been repeating your self daily and making abrasive comments constantly.

Its not feedback haha

oh what i have to say won't matter to rhay, my als mean I dont know what I'm talking about

[languid adder]

If you see it this way, thats okay to me!

[languid adder]

If you seriously think this way, then what i say won't matter regardless.

[naive lynx]

It's okay to disagree but saying actual feedback that doesn't agree with you is abrasive is kinda out of touch

Feedback is voiced on both sides

[languid adder]

I understand why people would be happy with the system
And i understand why not

Sadly, there is a pattern, that the people where its designed for to grow with them (low ALs) are happy, cause there is literally nothing in place to devaluate their progression, they can fully enjoy the system.

Most veterans feel their grind devaluated and having to re-earn something they already earned is simply cheap, and unreasonable - while at the same time losing one of their major functions to do what they did before, if they dont want to engage with the new feedback loop. Accepting ang 2.0 is a one way ticket and most people trusted it. Thats why some people are so dissatisfied.

I fully understand why you dont see a problem, Velour, but try to think about it the other way around.

[spiral goblet]

I never stated which side I was on

I just dislike your tone in half your messages 🤷

[languid adder]

Kinda tried to devaluate my points with cheap blame shifting, so i dont really mind which "side" you are on, just pointing out what my point is.

[languid adder]

Fully fine to me.

Didn't like your tone either, so its fine by me =}

[naive lynx]

Well that's too bad, gonna give my feedback

[spiral goblet]

Which is a-ok

[naive lynx]

Good glad we could agree on that at least

Now back to feedback live

Would love the great wise one who's always watching to come in and give us some feedback on how the first bit of time has gone ♥️

[languid adder]

I would love some data!

[weak steeple]

Can people who feel like their ascensions are 'Devalued' speak as to why they feel this way for Anguish 2.0 ?

[sinful vapor]

I have not felt this way yet, but I understand the pain point

I also haven't reached shackles

[languid adder]

Im having an appointment soon, can i just @ you when i have the space to answer if i dont find the message?

But for now

Those should speak more then my words x3
More difficulty, less rewards.
Or
Much more difficulty, therefore much slower progress, basically less rewards.

Lose-lose.

Let me use my ALs, damnit.

Odie talked about that shackles should even out progression speed in the reddit post.
That is not reality.

Fixing this, and reducing shackles penalty (~20% more power should at minimum net ~20% more rewards, no matter the ascensions, everything else does not make sense, i dont ask for more reward, just an evened out on) would 100% make me not feel disrespected.

[sinful vapor]

Fwiw if you shackled, your progression speed would be evened out

[short osprey]

The biggest issue when it comes to shackles (from what I can see) is that Anguish 2.0 is properly designed for a difficult/reasonable ride for new-ish T10 players, the guild not allowing you to outpace/solve it's difficulty with ALs, which in concept is a really good thing, but it's when you're high AL and try to jump in from the start it feels as if all the progression you've made up until now is being tucked away or "put on hold" so to speak, until you do another somewhat similar grind to what you've already been through. And it's fine that there is a grind, it's more so how long the grind is going to take just to use what I've already acquired.
For me personally it's not so much a feeling of disrespect, it's more so a feeling of being unconsidered, I really want to get to a point that is challenging for my AL, as right now I'm playing at AngLevel 6/7 with shackles on and it's okay but I'm reallyyyy starting to feel like things are slowing down, with it taking 13 towers for me to get from Torment 7 -> 8 I'm worried how many it's gonna take for Torment 14 -> 15 -> 16... etc, when I won't be able to use my characters full strength till 39, I already played for hours and hours at low AL, so it's slowly becoming more and more unappealing to play for hours and hours at that level again

[sinful vapor]

Typically when new content arrives, you can do it better/faster than newer/more casual players because of the work you've already put into the game

That's just not there for ang 2.0, and it hurts to feel like your power is gone

I'm dreading having to grind anguished gear for lvl 5 lol

[jaunty tide]

Though I agree that the shackles have been a "hindrance", as I slowly go through the process of Anguishing my favorite gear, I'm beginning to realize I'm creating some awesome stuff that almost make up for the loss of AL.

I realize that this is just another carrot to dangle in front of me and how this can be obnoxious when you've already invested A LOT into Ascensions (fyi I'm AL 50), but I'm not gonna lie... I'm enjoying this Anguish gear system.

As we continue to power up our gear, I wonder how much these "shackles" will really matter.

[weak steeple]

I hear what all of you have said so far but this is exactly what is trying to be prevented.

Anguish 2.0 is meant to never be finished. It is meant to be a gameplay loop that keeps endgame players occupied.

It is not meant to be a faster progression.

All that being said, I do think the rewards should at least match the challenge when jumping to shackles. That part definitely deserves looking at.

[sinful vapor]

Here's the part that rubs me a little wrong. Shackles don't prevent the content being finished

Shackles don't keep endgame players occupied in the long run. The whole purpose is to eventually get high enough where you are not shackled

[jaunty tide]

True. You can just farm proofs at Lv 4 and increase your Anguish without even having to touch shackles. Seems a bit weird.

[sinful vapor]

The anguish system is built for "infinite" scaling and shackles only make it harder to get to the actual desired loop

[raven bane]

To add to this, at the high end, its not just a question of when its a question of if.

Assuming I do not ascend between now and then (I will) I need to farm more than 250k tokens to hit anguish 70 in a given path, which is when I can use my full strength. Even on beta ang 50+ was becoming a challenge unshackled and that was with infinite God working tools. Seems like there will be a distinct soft cap before we actually get to play the content we desire.

[short osprey]

The issue is currently when you're lower Ang level and your AL difference is at such an extreme to where you have to use shackles it doesn't feel like progressing, it feels like I'm trying to play catch up to where I grinded previously

[weak steeple]

What if anguish had no ALs at all?

The point you guys are missing is this is designed to be an alternate endgame loop for those who don't really care for ALs. Maybe it's not meant for everyone. I dont know how else to explain that.

[sinful vapor]

But ALs are a literal requirement

[weak steeple]

The AL loop for a long time has discouraged other players to not participate

Now the AL players are feeling like they dont want to participate in the non AL loop

Feels like we have 2 completely different endgames now to satisfy all players

ALs are always the center of all problems in Orna endgame lets be honest

[sinful vapor]

How is ang2.0 meant to be "non-AL"

[weak steeple]

Shackles

[raven bane]

Is anguish 2 supposed to be the non-AL loop? The way it was presented seemed to imply the content would be hard enough to accommodate AL. There is already difficult content available for low AL its just the normal content.

[sinful vapor]

Shackles only slow down ALs

ALs are a requirement

If 2.0 was meant to be non-AL, then ALs would be disabled

[raven bane]

Frankly, if people wanted hard low AL challenge content, they could just play a less ascended class. If high AL players want challenging content anguish is the only option.

[weak steeple]

Let me give you all the other perspective.

Lots of players (myself included) became very inactive when AL grinding got very out of hand over the last couple years.

If you werent grinding ALs, youd get curb stomped in Wars and Areas. If you did grind ALs, content suddenly became insanely easy and boring. Neither of those things are appealing.

Ang 2.0 gives an outlet for endgame players who do want challenging content. If im being completely honest, 90% of high AL players Ive spoken with prefer to have pure power from ALs. This content is pretty much the opposite of that.

Not sure how else to explain this.

[weak steeple]

Dont take it literally. 2.0 is just the 'i dont like grinding ALs' option

[sinful vapor]

Ok that's a little clearer

[sinful vapor]

But this is just not true then

The endgame is still the same - grind ALs

[weak steeple]

Im not here to argue the details

Dont have time for that lol

Just offering alternate perspective

And (from what ive heard) is NFs objective here

[sinful vapor]

I guess I just don't see how shackles accomplish anything other than slowing down progression. It doesn't stop it; it doesn't help it; it just slows down people with higher ALs

[bronze plinth]

Im not high al and i think current anguish is unfun bc you cant actually get into "very hard" mode

Its just super slow and unrewarding

[weak steeple]

Whether its right or wrong idk just helping paint the full picture. We can all agree it needs some changes.

I can completely agree that the jump from ang4 to ang5 is probably too excessive for the relative reward increase.

[languid adder]

Not reality.

[raven bane]

I am not sure how this flows logically into capping AL in anguish. If the shackles still exist and are rewarding there is a voluntary endgame loop that people can opt into with less AL. It does not have to be to the restriction of other players.

[sinful vapor]

Is 2.0 intended to be kind of like a storyline game where you can just increase the difficulty for replayability?

[short osprey]

I understand the perspective of it's an alternative gameplay loop, and it is! But I do love this kind of loop, for example it's just that in ang1.0 it was the reason I would get ALs, and it felt like I was progressing when I was able to push my anguish level higher in towers when I finally got over a big mat block, or that a build finally worked when I got a few more ALs. The system itself/the content of Ang2.0 is great imo, and it definitely would feel good/like I'm progressing if I was at level in-line with my AL.
It's not that I want more rewards or anything (that's a different topic of discussion), it's that I want to feel like I'm progressing again when I get that next level to fight stronger enemies, instead, right now it's a feeling of "I'm 1 step closer to being able to progress my character"
(Trying my best to not sound argumentative as that's not my goal, just explaining my experience with the system so far )

[weak steeple]

So basically if the reward matched the challenge everything would be fine, right?

Which is what Ive been saying

[sinful vapor]

Yes and no

[raven bane]

Its more so if the challenge matched our character, not some lesser version.

[languid adder]

Basically yes... If i get 20% more rewards for 20% increase power, +- a tiny bit because of the modifiers. Im happy.
If my rewards reduce overall cause i unshackle, or if i have to shackle and therefore reduce my gamespeed to basically have the same outcome, something is wrong.

Adding to that that all the tokens go back into anguish i wont see any benefit for the gold gameplay loop outside of towers.
I think a reward scaling rethinking is appropriate.

[weak steeple]

Im having trouble understanding what you're looking for.

Correct me if im wrong, but you are 100-200 ALs right?

Are you asking for content that rewards you at a 200 AL level of rewards? Where players at 50 AL should only be rewarded for 50AL worth of challenge?

[sinful vapor]

My character's main class is AL 49, that's my ultimate progression metric. Anguish doesn't use my ALs until further down the path - that's where I want to be

[short osprey]

If by "more rewards" you mean to make progression more manageable, then yes 100%

I'm fine with everything and shackles, but it's just don't wanna play with shackles for the next year before I finally catch up to my ALs

[weak steeple]

I mean - completing anguish at level 10 for example rewards you in such a way that is worth the challenge. Whether it be mats / items / skins etc

How can we allow all players to play at their AL but not simultaneously just allow those previously higher AL players an exponentially faster progression than everyone else?

[sinful vapor]

I have an idea

[bronze plinth]

I just want to hop into the hard part of the anguish instead the gotta farm this gobling again untill you can face the dragon again

[weak steeple]

Play anguish 5

It gets hard pretty quickly, the rewards just dont make it worth the effort

[bronze plinth]

My als are not that high to make anguish 5 a "hard"

[languid adder]

Then it would be the same BS finesse gave us.
Its the same as the munchies from conquerers, its just a cheap way out for people who dont wanna respect the grind.
You have counter (II), you have fomoria DoT gear. Diffuse ward is not ever used by AI, you can just zerg us down. And someone who has grinded thousands of hours more then you should not be able to be equialized down to your lack of power, that you didnt work for.

[sinful vapor]

Raise the content to the player's AL instead of lowering the player to the content. Throw maluses on top of that

[weak steeple]

This is the fundamental difference between the two sides of our player base

[languid adder]

So basically, something that was designed for ALs, would now be the opposite?
I dont really understand why that would have been a choice.

[weak steeple]

In a nutshell

[weak steeple]

Was it designed for ALs ?

[umbral blaze]

I mean, the speed of content will remain the same (since difficulty will increase) while both rewards and progression requirements increase, I don't see how that will necessarily make the higher al players grow at an exponentially faster rate?

[languid adder]

ALs where a choice made by odie, inplications were clear the second it released. Those problems were anticipated, now dont design against it, design with it.

[naive lynx]

5 isn't hard. It's just annoying to put it bluntly. I have to drag to get to where I want to be and will take a long time. There's no difficulty with shackles when you have good gear which most high ALs have

No difficulty for personal character plus insane amounts of time and proofs to get to where it would be difficult for myself is bad gameplay

I love Ang 2.0 just not the shackles in its current state

[weak steeple]

@languid adder

There are 2 types of players in Orna.

Player 1 -
Want's to grind out more power. Challenge is not important. Making things easier and grinding more power is of utmost importance. People who don't respect my grind are just going to get curb stomped by me in wars and territories.

Player 2 -
Wants to complete challenging content. The 'grind' is boring, you just get more stats and make the grind easier, until what? Curb stomping players in pvp brings no satisfaction, wheres the challenge?

[languid adder]

Why wouldn't someone who spent a lot of time in the game to get an advantage get an advantage?
ALs cost increase per level, anguish costs increase per level.
The amount of rewards you get does not scale in the same fashion, you will always take longer.

[weak steeple]

Exponential progression

[bronze plinth]

Player 1 is kinda wrong

Challenge is important

[languid adder]

One wanting a cheap getaway and one who earned there power doesn't wanting to be cheaped out on?

[broken pike]

I've only been playing ang 2.0 for a couple days, but honestly I don't think this will even be enjoyable long term game play for the low AL players either. It may be fun for a couple months, but when the high AL need to grind for a year to get where it matches their AL and the low ALs never have a chance to catch up because they are constantly burning mats it seems like it's a system set up for long term failure. Of course it will take a while to see the data and drop off rate long term. It doesn't seem difficult, just a long boring grind. That may stem from me feeling like a mobile game shouldn't be as grindy and content being as time consuming as say a PC or console game 😅

[bronze plinth]

The low anguish does not give the challenge we want

[languid adder]

Seeing at how fast you reached max level, and how much stuff you got from it, yes.
If it wasn't, adjustments could have been made the past years, and would have need to.
Changing the entire design philosophy after yeats of ignoring it seems hypocritical to me.

[atomic ermine]

the problem with shackles is that grinding more AL don't make you feel more powerful because you're limited and the mobs scale faster than you. It's basically a question of Orna identity now. Do NF want it to be a challenging game or a grinding game.

[naive lynx]

Also coming from a standpoint in beta, running ang46-47 dungeons took me about as long as 2-4 dungeons at a lower tier. The rewards were the same in the end time wise but my one run was much harder on 46 for me personally and had risk. Also saves me some carpel tunnel from having to buff 80 extra dungeon runs vs like 1/4 the button pressing for buffs for the same time

[weak steeple]

Guys Im talking solo to about 10 of you with the same argument.

This is why lots of players with the alternate view don't really enter these discussions. But trust me, they exist.

All im trying to do is offer you another perspective. If you cant even see that perspective, how can you achieve the changes you want to see? You aren't going to change my perspective. You need solutions that fit both sides.

[naive lynx]

Ang19 raid a Morris take much longer than ang8-9 but yield almost the same rewards for time in the end

[weak steeple]

Ill leave you with that

[bleak mural]

No one gonna talk about buying mats with 4 type of proof? Because its already many" Days yet i saw what i want in anguish guild but with wrong proof 🥲 especially despair

[languid adder]

But i am player 3, i want to grind more more power, and also have content that needs that power.
I dont see fun in oneshotting everything outside of PvP.
I just dont want to grind again for what i already earned.

[naive lynx]

It's a suggestion in the orn feedback 🤞

[bleak mural]

Oh nice then 👍 i hope it coming next patch 😅

[languid adder]

Correct, so why now completely break it by a new system that doesnt respect it?
It eats our rewards for ALs for a long while, at the chance of rewarding us for the added time?

[weak steeple]

Ive mentioned multiple times that the reward to challenge ratio needs work

[jaunty tide]

Wholeheartedly agree. I enjoy the unique challenge that the Shackles give cause it's, well, a challenge. Grinding AL for AL's sake wasn't much of a challenge. Just tedious.

The only issue is I see the rewards for Melacholy 4 vs Melancholy 5 with shackles and I go, "Well, I'm gonna be hanging out at lv 4 for a while cause that's easier to farm proofs."

If the challenge of facing "the shackles" gave out considerable more rewards, then I'd be more inclined to embrace the challenge.

Also as it stands right now, you can simply stay at lv 4 of any Anguish level, farm those proofs, and advance without even dealing with the shackles, which feels a bit weird.

[weak steeple]

Yes this is captured already

[languid adder]

Why not both? We could have perfect harmony but 3.17 is not having it :(

[weak steeple]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1379141724902920244

@jaunty tide

[jaunty tide]

Sorry, I'm at work and want to contribute, but there's a literal deluge to siphon through. Not sure how you do it 😅

[weak steeple]

I stay for 15 mins then leave for multiple days

[languid adder]

I see that perspective, and i think its bad for the game, and it contradicts what Orna was the past years, and became.
We had YEARS of taking another route, and we had people who invested years into what Orna became.
Should the veterans really be the one taking the blame for Odie changing his mind about what orna should have be now? We, who love this game so much to dedicated so much life to it?

[bronze plinth]

This so much

[weak steeple]

You aren't taking any blame. Im just as much a veteran as you are, and Anguish has reignited my enjoyment in this game. The reward to challenge ratio needs work though.

[naive lynx]

I second this

Well third after Eos main lol

[sinful vapor]

What's your take on shackles as they stand @weak steeple (assuming rewards get tweaked)

Are they fun, necessary, WIP?

[languid adder]

I know, i was just giving the argument, as the perspective you gave was contradicting (at least in my mind) what you said about it needing work.

[weak steeple]

High AL players can progress further into Anguish because they don't have to fulfil the AL mat/orn requirements. That is an advantage going into the Ang2.0 system. The rest of us will get stuck at our AL, and have to farm the mats/orns to progress further.

The question is, what are we progressing through anguish2 for? A guild level to show off? ALs? Just challenge for the sake of challenge?

I agree that the progression of your character outside of anguish is very very slowed down by participating in anguish. The reward to challenge ratio should absolutely be improved.

The objective (to my understanding from NF) is to provide a gameplay loop of challenge that is never truly completed. If everyone immediately started at their AL level of challenge, the content would feel completed much quicker.

[languid adder]

The gameplay is FUN. I agree, finally, sonething more the towers ascension towers ascension.
Just unreasonable expectations, and not enough thought towards how high players progress through it.
Great concept, not fitting philosophy, but, fixable!

[atomic ermine]

• Drastically lower the price of the first 5 anguish levels (divide by 10)
• Remove the bonus 10% drop chance you've at level 1
• Unlock shackles option at level 5
• Activating shackles gives you a flat bonus to your proof drop chances (the 10% removed at level 1)
• Add more levels of shackles for increased difficulty and reward (even negative AL for big bump in chance ?)

[weak steeple]

Im undecided on shackles because im chilling at anguish 4 still

The jump from 4-5 is not smooth at all

Not even just from a rewards standpoint

The content gets 2x slower

[sinful vapor]

Have you tried shackled ang5 though

[weak steeple]

Ill defer to Odie on the solution because we of course have tons of ideas to offer. I think goal #1 is just emphasizing the issue itself for a solution to be implemented. We have captured the list of issues here:

If there are more issues to bring up please keep the discussion going!

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1379141724902920244

[weak steeple]

Yes

[sinful vapor]

And how did that feel

[weak steeple]

Slow

[languid adder]

With the change that anguish 5 never gives less then 4, that is a huge step towards bringing logic into the system.

[sinful vapor]

Compared to what you were used to, which is of course how everyone is saying they feel. Just a good note to everyone in this discussion - the problems exist but contructive feedback is needed

[vocal basalt]

Ang5 is still aoe 1 turn, especially for deity. You just have to buff for a few turns

[weak steeple]

I truly think that fixing the reward to effort or challenge ratio will resolve most of the community concerns on all sides

[atomic ermine]

idk if it's clear enough but those are not independent ideas, more like a package of changes to make the 5 first level a kind of tutorial with all your power, then giving you the option to go further for more rewards.
currently, if you're not on discord and you buy level 5, you just feel like scammed.

[weak steeple]

That one i will for sure be the loudest about you have my word

[storm wadi]

None of my fish are anguished. Please fix asap.

[languid adder]

Thats the kinda things i would love to feel more often! ^~^ ORN cares much more then they need to, and i really appreciate it. Sometimes my ADHD ridden brain tends to forget..

[languid adder]

Fish dripping anguished
Literally no benefit
But SPARKLING FEESH

Honestly, can we get that as a meme update

[vocal basalt]

Despair path should add balor muskellunge chance 🤔 🤔

[sinful vapor]

Fishing rework hopefully

[languid adder]

I remember when fishing was the tappy that was fun, now its just an AFK grinding tool and i miss the old fishing :(

[dim jacinth]

no you don't

[storm wadi]

It's perfect for getting work done but still playing Orna

[dim jacinth]

no one misses blue wave vibrate tap fishing

[languid adder]

I genuenly enjoyed the old fishing more thenthe new one
New one has more polish, but is a weaker gamemode

[languid adder]

Maybe its my autism but i do

[dim jacinth]

the new one is infinitely more rewarding

[dim jacinth]

like old areas to conq guild

[languid adder]

I agree, but also, much less fun, and too AFK.
Why we nerf refineries if fishing is like this?

[short osprey]

Honestly, I think we have somewhat of the same perspective but are just experiencing it in different ways. Though at the end of the day I feel like upping the rewards for the difficulty (which will increase proof gain, which by default will then help progression speed), is a first step I'd be happy with!
(as long as it's not just something like +0.5% to the proof rate )

[atomic ermine]

i remember scraping all my fishes right before coral was a thing. I was so depressed I never touched a fishing line since then...

[dim jacinth]

refineries have a cap, fishing has a cap?

[languid adder]

Rather nerf level up costs, and dont buff proof gains, that would be much less risky.

[languid adder]

Forgot about the cap, its super high x3

[dim jacinth]

says you, yet i see lots of people saying it's too low

alas not the topic if the thread

[languid adder]

If we nerf refineries cause we dont want AFK gameplay, we can't increase AFK gameplay at another point^^"

[languid adder]

Okies :) is there one?

[nocturne night]

Personally it's about as fast as it was before. ~3 minutes per dungeon pre shackle, ~3 minutes per dungeon post shackle.
Might be a summoner thing though.

Cool guy @dim jacinth and I also managed to get them to be roughly 3 minutes in a multiplayer scenario, with him on Gilgursa Envy Sweeping and I on Cleanup with mammoths

[short osprey]

That's defiantly a summoner thing I feel, currently for me personally it's ~50sec - 1min per dungeon at Melancholy 4

[nocturne night]

Can't go slower if I'm already too slow taps forehead

though I can hardly even imagine having the game run fast enough to do 2s per floor

Or having my summons move fast enough to be done with the floor in 2s, even if I kill them all before they get a turn

[atomic ermine]

comparing completion times on dungeons is not that great. It really depends on external factors on top of your build/character. For example for me, same build, it take 1 minute from 7am to noon and 3 to 5 minutes after that. All time lost in server connexion.

[old aspen]

As a player I don’t know how to engage with progression in the game now.

The new anguish system adds challenge, but not content. With shackles I feel like the “end game content” of ALs is now obsolete.

I feel confilicted and I don’t have clear goals for the endgame as I did with anguish 1.0

[short osprey]

~1min 10seconds just then, can manage 50 seconds if I did this at 1-3am my local time when servers are basically perfect

[nocturne night]

As a summoner player I think that's a bit ridiculous and that the slowdown is warranted.
But also there's a great deal of buffs that have gone unused that would likely let you still clear things in one hit at shackled levels. I suppose at that point the main slowdown would come from having to use turns to buff

He's hitting pretty well for an al8 gilga

[atomic ermine]

summoner would be just as fast if all summons were playing at the same time. That'd be a visual mess but I'm sure summoners wouldn't be against faster clear time

[vocal basalt]

Mage classes will be fine for quite a few ang lvls still

[mystic rose]

One thing I've found so far. Realistically, not a huge deal as it probably won't happen too often, but putting many anguish levels onto a piece of gear at once feels a bit clunky and slow

[timber furnace]

Yes, using a demonworking tool again and again is annoying

[left mauve]

damn, gilga so ded, duds at https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1377614946178826290 were right since the beginning

[languid adder]

Gilga? Dead?
Looks at summoner

[atomic ermine]

you're sidetracking from the main subject, nefr beo

[broken pike]

It's just the group of no creativity. Show a video of a gilga with no AL or low AL with anguish still ripping with or without SS and they don't believe it's real. The good/creative gilgas already have new builds again. The others just need to copy them lol

Back on topic, finally got an anguish gear piece to drop 😂. Time to level up and wait for a lvl 2 piece

[vocal basalt]

Mentioning gilga is just the surefire way to summon wrecked no matter what he's doing lol

[broken pike]

I played gilga 😏 . They just want the mindless builds hence no creativity

If I were to HoC again, I would go back to gilga

[vocal basalt]

Ok hon 😩

[naive lynx]

Just a toss up but would reducing the amount of proofs required for the next level help get by shackles to bigger ALs that we've earned? Still keeps the shackle premise that some enjoy and slows down big people still like some people want but it's not a ridiculous amount for people who wanna chug along to their difficulty. Like Sirith said for towers alone you're looking at 14 towers to even get to ang7-8 etc. Let alone when you start getting to in the 20s where it's going to require thousands of thousands to just get one lvl. Now we have to do this for every path still and it's still going to more time than I think NF believes.

I don't think it should feasibly take over a year to get back to my ALs for every path, but that's just me. Tossing out opinions and options

[broken pike]

I think proofs required should be reduced forsure. I don't see the content keeping people engaged long term when it gets to that point

For the more casual players, it would probably take more than a year 😅. For the high AL that don't particularly care about grinding hard anymore, it's also a deterrent

The rewards need to be scaled differently too, but there would probably need to be a reduction in it at higher anguish. People will likely feel like the time isn't worth the reward again though

[naive lynx]

Even being high AL I can say personally it's going to take months on months to even get one path up to where I would be to have actual difficulty for myself. Let alone the anguish gearing

[grave fulcrum]

Bg doesn't give that great of orns or good ornate the only thing it gives is more proofs because the amount of t10 enemies in the dungeon the EOD is a bonus that came out after party play came out and it being semi key positive it's not in hard mode which is where eods are farmed. And most people only run bg for the ed and gf as they're typically the cheapest and time efficient other than that tho they don't offer much more than a up does (scrolls which offer agony, a few t10 mobs and semi decent mat farm for specific mats)

[grave fulcrum]

1 it does reward because you don't have to grind Als to continue for a while 2 it only makes you work through the early als again which is something alot of players have concidered making an alt for the "new player experience" so this only makes you work to get into harder content which is what should have been the entire time

[sinful vapor]

That's not how that works ahhhhhh

I have already obtained the reward from my ALs. I grinded for them and put in the work, and am rewarded by them in many ways in Orna.

Anguish 2.0 does not actively reward me in any way for having those ALs

The grind being "already done" is because I put in the time and got the ALs; that has absolutely nothing to do with ang 2.0

[grave fulcrum]

Plus als were way outa whack and while this is a bandaid fix and upset lots of people who got use to fully skipping the buff process and skip the chance to die do I think how shackles are currently is good no but do I think this is a start yes

[sinful vapor]

My AL grind is not a consequence of ang2.0

Having the ALs is not a reward of ang 2.0

The two have no correlation

[grave fulcrum]

Your reward is for pvp you have all you als to back you up along with arisen way gate which makes that easier. And your reward for grinding als early was that you get continue from Al 4-5 and so on without having to stop and grind Als so you save yourself time.

[sinful vapor]

That's not a reward of the anguish 2.0 system

That is a reward of my AL grind

Anguish 2.0 takes away my ALs and holds them hostage until I grind the system. Getting back a few ALs at each level is not a reward

Having ALs that I already grinded for has no bearing on the anguish system. I'm not saving any time; I already put in the time

That's not a reward, my grind was just chronologically displaced compared to someone without ALs

[dawn parrot]

and if you have too many ALs you wont even reach your anguish level because of the soft cap from enemy stats/debuffs

[tacit ridge]

I think people feel so strongly about this because Ang 2.0 pretty much affects every single instance of PvE gameplay. If you were unable to use your ALs for dungeons only for example, people would be able to farm other loops and still use their AL

Instead, as soon as you opt into 2.0, every thing becomes attached to that system

Seeing how many people have stayed behind in 1.0 and are currently outpacing anyone on 2.0 is worrisome as well. The AL chasm that will create won’t be able to be mitigated by the people on 2.0. Ang 1.0 just needs to be nuked from the game at this point

The later people are forced to change, the bigger of an issue this will be. I hope they studio learned from allowing refineries to exist uncapped for years and won’t make the same mistake with 1.0

[fierce cedar]

the AL chasm!? lol

that will be created

not that we enjoyed creating

[tacit ridge]

That’s exactly what I said. Preemptive action to migrate everyone to 2.0 would prevent that from ever happening

[fierce cedar]

btw, there's still a way to farm w/o paying anguish tokens for kingdom mats. if you roll 5-6 alts and a private pacifist kingdom, do guantlets and farm regular non anguish dungeons for other mats

[grave fulcrum]

Ahh yes let's encourage people alting again (please make 2fa with hardware ID a thing)

[grave fulcrum]

Btw you could just fish it's faster and easier than running 6 alts for kg raids

[tacit ridge]

Ah yes, let’s bypass a game design flaw by alting, that’s super enjoyable and absolutely intended gameplay. I truly don’t see how this is even a discussion. NF said 1.0 was changed because it was too profitable. So why should it be allowed to stay for even longer when we already have its replacement that’s meant to be less profitable?

[grave fulcrum]

The only reason it is staying currently is because he's getting feedback and bug fixes for live so for players who try it and give feed back helps get everything smoothed out before removing it. Personally I'm not sure why the old territory system is still out there everyone shoulda been forced over now that all the kinks have been ironed out.

[paper void]

Sure, we can draw a parallel to territory control and leave Anguish 1.0 in with rewards disabled

[grave fulcrum]

No I'm saying it should be removed

Old territories serve no purpose so why keep them around. And 1.0 should be removed after 2.0 is fully functional and all the bugs are gone and the playerbase who is actually complaining for balance rather than I have 100 als and now I can't use them gets some form of fix

[nocturne night]

Ang1.0 being up has exactly one functional purpose: letting people spend their proofs before they become deprecated

Or, well, two purposes.
Grinding the badge if you really want to.

I'd be very pro leaving Anguish 1.0 with rewards disabled, unironically

[grave fulcrum]

I do think that there's a change for shackles needed the slidy bar would imo be the best possible implementation of it allowing for people who Wana do content under recommended Al to do so and gain at most 150% rewards and allows people to choose their exact Al for any content while creating a viable punishment system for being above the recommended range I do believe this would also bring tons of players to the new system that dislike losing access to all their als

[grave fulcrum]

Haha I'm just waiting for my buddy to swap over I think he's tryna get a badge but I was gonna try to get the first 2-4 lvls of 1-2 content options with him lmfao but on HOA I swapped over the second I could because I wasn't attached to the old system other than orn gains given aka kill boss get big orna big orns make brain go ooooooo

[tacit ridge]

You can achieve that by disabling bonuses so people can’t farm more proofs

[grave fulcrum]

You could achieve it by fully removing the ability to turn anguish lvl up from 0 and only allow people to spend proofs

This makes it so you can't grind orns gain luck exp or gold from the system to be "more efficient" as well as no towershard% gain

[tacit ridge]

By bonuses I meant all of those, so yea, I agree with you

[grave fulcrum]

Don't even let them have anguish turned on tho because that makes some kind of coding do funky things and would probably break something with the new system if no rewards but anguish lvl on

[fierce cedar]

hates alts
plays Orna and HoA

😂 lol

i wont argue, there's no bridge between us to stand on

i srsly want to play party-battle in world mode more tho

its really good

/do want, not sure if thats related to anguish but it would affect despair rates

[tacit ridge]

If that was directed at me:
1- I only play orna
2- using Alts to benefit a main account in a singular game is very different from playing two distinct games

[grave fulcrum]

Bro orna and HOA are 2 separate games and I don't hate alts but I'm tired of balancing around people alting it's just as bad if not worse than uncapped refineries and I personally have made alta for different content I'm guilty of it but I've stopped doing it because it's just a pia and not worth the time and energy. But if you think me playing orna and HOA is alting then we should probably stop discussing anything with each other as it will always lead to some form of arguments

[fierce cedar]

nah it was to Jinx

[grave fulcrum]

No it was at me because I've spoken up about ways to completely destroy alting all together and have continued to comment on getting something in place

I'd even go as far as let's make it take 15 minutes to change accounts so if you log in on account a you have to wait 15 mins to log into another account under the same email/phone number to further discourage alting

[tacit ridge]

I will subscribe to that every day without hesitation. Account system with 2FA. Optionally give everyone a portable placeable wv to mitigate having to use alts for that, while letting people still have a dungeon spot they can share with kingdom mates, friends, etc

[fierce cedar]

who cares as long as people are legit and not using BlueStacks or something

[grave fulcrum]

Don't get me started on wv 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[grave fulcrum]

Wana know how easy it is to know if you're using BlueStacks?

Add a single line of code that says check operating system and verify location with a ping if your GPS doesn't slightly drift then you're on BlueStacks

[tacit ridge]

Who cares if people get to run 3x dungeons in a competitive game because they’re abusing other accounts? I do

[grave fulcrum]

I for a fact know that even if I'm in my house my GPS will drift from my body to across my apartment drive way and back

I get both side but if we have to balance the game around people abusing parts of a poorly implemented system then there's an issue

[severe junco]

i mean if you truly want to use smth like an emulator its rather easy to do gps drift can easily be simulated or you ust take an actual gps location reference it to an assumed position and then just add the change of that location to your spoofed location etc but arguing about that serves no purpose whatsoever since thats smth thats against tos anyways

[grave fulcrum]

The most difficult thing to get approved for both iOS and Android would be a cheat detection software that starts when you start your phone (similar to how vanguard works) this would be the most idea way to deal with people cheating and alting all the same as well as making sure that you can't hide hardware ID's

<@&448920498387288094>

@severe junco I get what your saying but let's not discuss ways to cheat here

[severe junco]

i mean you were my friend i was just saying that what ur trying to do is simply not smth that is actually feasable

if the person that tries to do it has a decent understanding of the subject

but this chat is about anguish

[grave fulcrum]

Nono I get it and I respect it but it's frowned upon to discuss how people cheat

[severe junco]

imo anguish rn aint bad i like that ppl wont be able to hyper ascend anymore

makes the game more casual

[paper void]

I don’t think 4554 detailed it any further than what was already in context in this thread. No need for a mod ping

[grave fulcrum]

I read the part about detailed spoofing GPS drift as discussing cheating

[paper void]

It’s just a counterpoint to using drift as a location validator

[fierce cedar]

give it 6mos, we just haven't figured out how to yet

[severe junco]

i think raiding will make getting mats easier

[fierce cedar]

but yea i agree

[severe junco]

but that a rather natural thing as i wont go out of my way to grind even more scrolls just for the sake of getting more proofs and mats

but i mean ppl do that for sure

[grave fulcrum]

I think the system is decent but there's room for it to improve but some of the stuff things that bring alting into the equation specifically scrolls and dungeons and world farming. Like how they will likely nerf party gains for proofs of anguish eg only the owner of the raid or something gets proofs will hurt people who Wana trade 50/50 raids

[severe junco]

also smth that i could see ppl do is buy the scroll of anguish and raid those in big parties so they are proof positive

[grave fulcrum]

I've also mentioned multiple times shackles so I won't re mention

[severe junco]

for instance 90ppl go to 1 place

raid 1 scroll of anguish and overall ur garuanteed to get more than 1 scroll out of it

ie the more ppl u get together

the more proof efficient that would get

could be heavily abused for instance ^-^

[grave fulcrum]

I think they should have made the cost to level up dynamic based on time spent on content rather than making all content similar speed to all anguish content

[fierce cedar]

orly

yes lets do that. odie i want anguish 25+ for all my alts

they have high time spent in game

xD (no plz dont!)

[grave fulcrum]

I think most people enjoy the raid side of anguish currently I know I do with my 13 Al HOA beo lmfao

And I'ma have to fish more to get more scrolls to farm more raids

[wooden trail]

Farming despair sucks….

And yes,im using all the summoning tricks to get more mobs

[fierce cedar]

i think it wouldn't be so bad if we could vary the monsters theme for a time, w/ candles or bait

like

• troll bait: attracts trolls of all varieties, but at your tier (aka lvl 250 ice troll like in a tower)

• dragon bait: "

• ancient candle: attracts ancient mobs

(etc)

maybe activating this at the massive pentagram in my OT (or watchtower) on a daily cd would be cool

or a way to pay materials into an area in the "build" screen to make it spawn more of (some) mobs for a amt of time

anyway idk its pretty fun but i killed a lot of chimera, purple koolaid, mammon acolyte and lyonesse folk recently

riftbreaks are very fun imo

[sinful vapor]

I don't think NF wants to get on the alt chasing enforcement treadmill

That's a lot of manpower dedicated to enforcing no alt play

And if someone wants to bypass it, I can only imagine there's a lot of ways to do so

[grave fulcrum]

If you add something like this there has to be some balance to it eg attracts enemies of XYZ but of all tiers therefore making it so you have to farm all enemies instead of free farming t10 enemies with nothing lower slowing you down

[fierce cedar]

thanks for being the voice of reason

[woeful raven]

Remove 1.0 will be good, if not players will keep comparing it

No idea why keep 1.0 after 2.0 is publish.

[full peak]

For me unshackle dungs (and ang50 in 1.0) was just clicking swan till end and nothing else.
Shackle dungeons are adding couple of mag buffs, so +10 sec.
I don't see much slow down there at all ....

Raids ang5 is some difference. But not double, but hey, I'm really high aL. Higher ang there start to slow down more.

🤷‍♂️

(and from a guy who like power as you call me, here is my perspective about ang2.0 @weak steeple #1377194080718553150 message)

[soft minnow]

Agreed that most of these concerns sound like “working exactly as intended.” I imagine Odie is sitting back smiling! Some folks seem to be trying to rush through the endgame….there’s no beyond-the-end endgame to get to after it, no rush!

[soft minnow]

And shackles is the biggest thing that’s making it harder for them, it sounds like?

[soft minnow]

Which is entirely the goal of the new endgame system that is designed to occupy them for years and years to come, right?

[soft minnow]

Well you certainly can eventually, just not immediately. I think it’s designed to take some time, right?

[soft minnow]

But it will eventually, right? You just haven’t played it enough to get there yet?

[bronze plinth]

Idk it kinda feels pointless to run low ang for "challenge" when there is no

[soft minnow]

It’s ok, folks with a different mindset who like the new stuff can become veterans to replace you. Circle of life.

[bronze plinth]

Got into lvl 5 on agony this morning and i did not notice any difference in dificulty

Just lost like 30k ward

[full peak]

Well, wait for agony 10 and let me know how you get your ass kicked. Lvl5 is usually barely any change, enemy didn't get much stats yet ...

[soft minnow]

I’m definitely grinding the badge, good god don’t lock it before I get the badge up just a few more levels to the next color, LOL!!

I think there are plenty of regular players who don’t even feel ready for even-harder-anguish anyway.

[sinful vapor]

Shackles just slow down getting to the endgame

I would like to power up my anguished gear and fight tough enemies.... at my AL, not at AL 8. I may change my mind once I actually get to ang5 but it doesn't sound that appealing to restrict myself

And I don't even have that many ALs

[bronze plinth]

I will let you know

[languid adder]

Coming out there with at least 5 million orns every time. EoD buff is part of it for years, dont understand your points...
If they only farm it for the EoD and Godforges, then thats on them? I thoroughly enjoy BGs and thing they are the most fun dungeons because its the only one where you're actually in danger while buffing if you dont take it slow. Its higher risk, much higher reward.

[languid adder]

That is the equivalent of someone getting hired of a cleaning crew and then getting told that the former job as the CEO of the big cleaning product company they worked for is now rewarded.
I dont understand why people would think this way?