Anguish Live Feedback

[obsidian jackal]

Hello 👋
Since I just got my hand on the update I wanted a place to share my thoughts about the Anguish rework !

I already tested in Beta a gave a positive feedback on the system, however as Beta-testers we did not have the value needed to upgrade the Anguish 2.0 level

In Ang 2.0, you need 110 proofs and the proofs chance is 10-12%

To remind, in Ang 1.0, you need 1 proofs per level (to be exact : Ang Level - 1) and the proof chance is 1% multiplied per Ang level

Which means in Ang 2.0, it is 110 times more costly but 10-12 times more easy to get proofs at Ang lv.1

to summarize, compared to Ang 1.0, Ang 2.0 is 10x times more harder to progress

I understand perfectly the staff wants the Anguish grind to be slower, however we might have forgotten a crucial detail : in Ang 2.0, it is not one path for all ! But one for each content type !

If it was "easy" to farm proofs in Horde Boss dungeons in Ang 1.0, it will be excruciatingly painful to farm the Path of Agony : 0-3 proofs per Raids YOU summoned (you can't farm on Kingdo ones), 10-12% chance to drop, AND you need 110 of them... Not very reasonable imo

I got a feedback from an Aethric friend : the price of some items are dynamic

Here ang lv.1 on Orna

lv.2 Aethric

lv.3 Aethric

lv.4 Aethric

The price inflation goes hard, and weight on the moral

You have to strategize when you want to modify your anguished gears before the prize goes up and up

This is the first time dynamic prices are seen in Orna, and I don't think they are very welcomed especially in hard content

[nocturne night]

I'd be willing to wager the dynamic costs might not be intentional. Or at the very least, not at that scale

1 to 2 doubling costs when the earnings don't double smells erroneous

[left mauve]

i agree with Forgeus on everything. Dynamic cost is a bad idea too.

[nocturne night]

I do understand the thought behind dynamic pricing though, if they want those consumables to be equally as hard to obtain regardless of what level of anguish you are at.

But not at that rate.

Regarding the raid proof rate earning, they seem fine to me? That's just my opinion of course

you get 1-3 proofs (always guaranteed one at victory screen), so anywhere between 110 and 37 raids

For content that is meant to be consumed slowly, that seems perfectly fine

Even moreso when you consider partying up and splitting raids. After all, if you're guaranteed the victory screen proof, then splitting raids between multiple party members is an objective increase in proofs

[left mauve]

so it would cost you 1000 scrolls to get AT BEST 3000 proof.
considering the cost for leveling the ang path or the cost of any mats/item in shop, that's crazy expensive

i mean, level 1 to 2 is already 110 proof

[nocturne night]

1000 scrolls. Or Moondrops, which conveniently are the current event.
And if you split the raids four-ways, you'll have a much higher proof floor.

There's no rush to climbing the anguish path anyhow. It'll passively go up as you play and raid normally.

(Just to make it clear, these are my personal opinions as a player - not a general consensus as an ORN / Moderator - you are free to disagree, of course.)

[left mauve]

I dont think you play the game the same way as a lot of us John ^^
Most players want to grind the content (and that's the whole point of orna...), not to go on a relaxing little battle against a raid from time to time, so the "no rush climbing the anguish path" is really really wrong for a looot of players.
1000 scrolls are huge, even if you add some moodrop. Which is a palliative (event locked item) and we also might want to use them to craft hyperion.
Sharing raid is a good option i suppose, but it will reduce the loot chance for famed+ items, and still, 500 scroll to get 3000 proof (again, that's the highest possible result, probably more around 2000) is expensive enough considering the princing of mats and dynamic price of items and cost of upgrading the path

[nocturne night]

I meant more like that you can dump all your scrolls for levelling anguish, sure, but you don't need to be super high anguish level to start benefitting from it.

1000 scrolls is a lot, but you're not deleting them to increase in anguish - you're getting as many benefits as before, with the added bonus of levelling anguish

Also, anguish levels increase raid luck, which makes splitting even better

[left mauve]

yeah but we want to get the best anguished items, which come from raids, and thus from higher anguished raids ^^
An exemple of how it become vicious : you want to use your godmaking tools at the highest anguish level possible, so you wait to get as high as possible.
Demonworking tools are also a no-no use on a low anguish item i think, you want to use it later. But later it will cost a shitton of proof to buy, and proof=scroll=pricy af

[obsidian jackal]

I do not agree with that idea, the higher you progress in Anguish, the more frequently you'll get Anguished gear
So at one point it'll be more efficient to farm gear rather than modifying them.

[nocturne night]

I never said I agreed with the idea, merely that I understood the thought process :p

[obsidian jackal]

Worry not I target ideas, not people

And for Proofs of Agony, it's value is evaluated like the old Proof of Anguish, which doesn't represent the amount of Summoning scrolls, the amount of Raid farmed and not their difficulty either (a t10 should reward better than a t6)

Currently all 4 proofs value from Anguish Guild are copied from old Anguish Proof, which means right now they have the same value in the Anguish Shop

[obsidian jackal]

By essence, Raiding is slower than any other fighting contents, thus proofs are not equals in their earning and their price in the shop should be adapted

[nocturne night]

Seems reasonable to me

The most important part right now, in my opinion, is just to play anguish.
Early feedback is good and important, but in the long term, NF shouldn't be doing any kneejerk reactions to the pricing

Let them monitor costs, earnings and spendings over time

Overreacting from NF's side would result in ANG1.0 all over again, where they overdo it and it becomes too profitable for too little effort

[broken pike]

Why were great monster aspects removed from the guild 🙄. Seems like a move to encourage more $ purchases since we can't even get them in the travelers guild or any other guild

[nocturne night]

Please don't assume malice.

It is a good question though

[somber nymph]

I agree with the question, but you also can't buy Great Monster Aspects with money

[broken pike]

Oh, I see. Thought one of the packs did have them before, but must be mistaken. Aspects in general are hard to come by since there is no auto collect feature with the travelers guild and staring at your phone constantly while walking is rather annoying

Well.. they do show up in packs every now and then

[obsidian jackal]

day 999 of asking to auto-collect for Travelling

[somber nymph]

When Odie was looking for Allegiance rewards I suggested some form of auto collect =/

That'd be such a good feature for The Traveler spec

[prisma vine]

can we have the mats in ang 2.0 be purchaseable with all 4 currency instead of a specific one?

[left mauve]

would be nice, i really really dont enjoy farming towers, so having to farm them WITH anguish ? Not cool.

[naive lynx]

This is coming from what I've seen so far but get rid of the dynamic costs for the guild shop or at least tone it a down a ton and maybe tone down the anguish level ups proof cost by like 20%? Still keeps it a longevity thing but lowers it a smidge. More or less an issue on raiding than the others tbh and don't mind it taking awhile to grind with how long items will take to cook in the smithy

[somber nymph]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but monuments can be farmed instead of towers

[raven bane]

My main concern is the level up price. A lot of people probably haven't even got to the shackles yet, but it is already a slow grind and will slow down considerably for a lot of people at anguish 5. Spending thousands of materials worth of proofs just to level up to a level that is appropriate to actually farm at feels bad.

[cinder jolt]

Same difference
I think what's annoying for most in towers is the movement

Yeah, the prices are wild

[somber nymph]

Agreed. Level up prices scale way too quick

[cinder jolt]

I thought the idea of anguish is less dungeons (any content) for harder and more rewards (preferably in a good time spent rate)

[somber nymph]

Proof rates go up by a few % per level, but level up prices seem to double

[cinder jolt]

Running dozens of dungeons to get one anguish level don't sound good to me

[somber nymph]

IMO dungeons are the least problematic out of all the prices, even though it does kind of take too long. Dozens of dungeons is easier than all of the other ones that take even longer.

[cinder jolt]

True. When I saw how many proofs I got from Raids, I just laugh and moved on to dungeons

[severe junco]

So we got smth like 2^x/1.05*x cost relation for the lvl up proof increase vs price increase

Thats horrifying

[cinder jolt]

Don't we all agree that the Anguish grind should be
Grinding better anguished gear and mats/proofs to face harder enemies in higher anguish
Not being stuck in easy low aguish just for lack of patience to farm
The limiter should be our power level and creative builds, not time and patience

[severe junco]

100% that

[soft minnow]

Yeah, seems like a lot of overcomplicated hassle for no real purpose. I grind and gear up to make my character feel more powerful and make playing easier, not feel weaker and have a worse time.

[clear grove]

Wondering when the Ascension shackles will be released? New guild level rewards are Kool. 1 more travelers guild for green aura!!!

[raven bane]

These kick in at ang 5, at least they did on beta

[clear grove]

Does it only count for that path I'm guessing?

[thin storm]

Does anyone know if lower tier mobs drop proofs?

or only T10 ones?

[raven bane]

I believe its only t10 except raids can be any

[granite cove]

Level up prices for Demontools etc are 55 per level +1 per level so at level 3 it's 168 for Dungeon and Tower

Not sure on the actual prices for Raids

[somber nymph]

Yeah the prices are absurd at the moment with the scaling, hopefully it gets looked at

[granite cove]

We are saying the same over in HoA. Also, the tower and dungeon being the same scale seems off. World farming is going to be the worst to do since it's only 1:1 battles as well

[somber nymph]

Getting a 2% increase in proofs per level doesn't justify things being more than twice as expensive

[granite cove]

For us, completing 21 dungeons (three BG and five unthemed in a group of 3) yields a range of 51 to 80, which translates to a total of 76-120 for that many dungeons at the cap of 50% increased proofs. By that time cost would be 1,400

[sinful vapor]

Dynamic prices = never upgrade an anguish level, farm your proofs there with relative ease

[somber nymph]

Unironically it is currently most efficient never to up your level

Edit: Until you have a bunch of Demonworking tools saved up

[sinful vapor]

De-incentivizing upgrading anguish level is not good

[granite cove]

At level 1 you only need to get roughly 30,000 proofs to fully upgrade all your gear and get have the highest chance to get the anguish ability you want

[sinful vapor]

Anguish doesn't stop at 50 fyi

[granite cove]

Proof cap stops at 50%

er bonus proofs

Odie said

[somber nymph]

You cap at a 50% proof chance per enemy

Like old anguish

To say it a bit more clearly lol

[sinful vapor]

Even if the prices scale only slightly, that still de-incentivizes leveling up

[granite cove]

Yeah, that's fair, let me recalc at a per mob instead of a flat chance

[sinful vapor]

Between shackles and scaling prices and stacking maluses, most people just won't level up much

[somber nymph]

Agreed. I know Odie said "static prices would not scale with the progression" but like, yes, that's the current problem.

By making the game slower and more difficult, right now you also make buying items from the shop even more slow and difficult.

[sinful vapor]

More time spent leveling up should mean easier time getting stuff from the shop

Not harder, and not even the same

[somber nymph]

I could live with the same, but imo it should become easier

In the beta we discussed there being some issues with anguish potentially not being rewarding enough. Scaling prices ensures Anguish is not rewarding enough by making it less rewarding the more you progress.

[timber furnace]

Wait, we can't have 100% chance of an anguish proof??

[granite cove]

Nope

[somber nymph]

#1377194080718553150 message

[granite cove]

I also think certain things like Crucible needs to be much lower price because you may need hundreds to pursue your perfect attribute

[sinful vapor]

That's something that's harder to say for sure at the moment

Rerolling for the perfect attribute should have a relevant price for sure

It may be too much but idk, seems hard to pinpoint atm

[granite cove]

Ok, so if I did my math correctly, for at least Unthemed Dungeons level one, it is 3.8 proofs per dungeon at Anguish, 25, 15.8 per dungeon using:
Level 1: 0.12 × 31.5 = 3.78 proofs
Level 25: 0.50 × 31.5 = 15.8 proofs
Assuming at least 31 T10 per dungeon

Buying 100 Anguish Crucible at level one is 5,500 proof, which should get you close to 1 item being where you want it, could be less if lucky, and could be more given that it's a 1 in 7 chance to get the attribute you want, and then it's a range within that

[timber furnace]

That's bad, I thought we could get to 100% chance at some point, and with everything I read, is better to stay at lvel 1

[somber nymph]

Yes, in the current implementation going above level 1 harms progression

[nimble dawn]

Dungeon Type : Proof Chance
Dungeon : Average
Goblin Fortress : Terrible
Mystic Cave : Terrible
Beast Den : Bellow Average
Dragon Roost : Bellow Average
Underworld Portal : Bellow Average
Chaos Portal : Terrible
Battlegrounds : Above Average
Valley of the Gods : Amazing

my personal experience so far

now that t10 monsters drop proof, at least you don't have to spam boss dungeons

Your goal is to do content that has T10 ennemies, boss or normal ennemies

Towers, works the same, packs that are not t10 gives nothing

Not sure how I feel about towers and monuments having to hunt t10

At least it makes sense in dungeons where none-t10 are easy, in towers some none-t10 are harder or more tricky then the t10 packs

I havent done raids yet

[timber furnace]

Btw, in beta, no matter the tier of the enemies you killed you could still get proofs of despair, right now it looks like you can only get proofs of despair when killing mobs of your tier, idk if that's intended, if it is, it makes worldfarming a bad option for Anguish

[granite cove]

Towers seems to give 30 ish proof per 50F if you full clear all T10's door guardians and roving

[nimble dawn]

World farming will be a very slow grind but oh soo usefull for Formor kings

[granite cove]

I only ever got off Tier 10 in beta world farm

Raids was only thing that gives T6 to T10 if anguished

[nimble dawn]

since there is no guild EXP, only total guild level, you are somewhat incentivised to do all the contents if you are not AL 150+

[nimble dawn]

oh nice

[timber furnace]

I got proofs from t6 or t9 before in beta, or maybe it was anguished gear, I'm not sure anymore

[somber nymph]

[nimble dawn]

how'S the raid proof rate since you need 110+ for the first level? 10 per kills?

[timber furnace]

Yes, that's the best option

[granite cove]

Well, even if you are 150+, you won't reach guild level 200 so you have to do at least 2 or 3 paths for sure

Gear can be any level yeah

I have some T4 anguished 😄 Good for Fomor gear I guess

[nimble dawn]

yeah, I am AL 30, so i will hit caps fast

[granite cove]

I am going to stop at Anguish 4 and hope that adjustments happen before I get into shackling

May stay there until I have enough to get my shackle up to AL 50 so that I can skip that grind

[granite cove]

Raid proofs are lower with what appears to be a chance per proof on the reward screen, but also gives 1 per kill. I did 17 Fey Jorm and got 28, for instance.

[nimble dawn]

So like it was for proof of felling, but each one of the 10 proof are rolled on your drop chances

and your garantied 1 for the kill

[granite cove]

yeah think so

hard to confirm 100%

[nimble dawn]

Yeah we will need data, but 110 anguish raid kills is going to be a slow grind

probably not going to cash in theses tokens

[granite cove]

I need stuff from raids so going to do them at anguish 1 anyway

[somber nymph]

Honestly I'd recommend not spending any proofs right now, except maybe on some demonworking tools/crucibles at level 1

[nimble dawn]

that recommandation extends to leveling your anguish I imagine?

I kinda like how slow of a burn this might be in terms of leveling the guild

[somber nymph]

I don't mind the slow leveling, I only mind the shop price increases that increase significantly faster than proof rate per level

[granite cove]

Yes, having the level cost more makes sense to me.

[nimble dawn]

yeah price going up with guild level is not something i am a fan of

mostly if you want to go from anguish 0 to anguish 5 gear you need 5 tools?

so if the cost goes up, then it's exponential to get gear up to your anguish level

[raven bane]

I didn't realize proof rate stops at 50%, it didn't seem to on the beta. I don't mind if its a slower scaling system, but the new system is much more difficult, in the long run it should exceed old anguish somewhat, otherwise people are incentivized to stay in the old system. I think the scaling cost on the items is an issue too, you will arguably need to use more at later anguish cause your gear will have to be near perfect to progress.

[livid sonnet]

proof stops at 50%? how about ang. gear % drop?

[nimble dawn]

Used a parthspur to change my dungeon anguish and it was not changed, still consumed the item

anyone else had this issue?

[sinful vapor]

Submit bug report

[nimble dawn]

Will do after my work meetings, I am not sure how I report that, since I don't really want to replicate and lose yet an other pathspur for nothing

can someone confirm you are supposed to have 6 pathspurs from the guild level rewards when you start?

[granite cove]

You can see it in the rewards page

[nimble dawn]

oh right, so yeah, it did get consumed as I got 5

[sinful vapor]

Explain what happened, you don't need to have incontrovertible evidence

[nimble dawn]

will file the bug report

[nimble dawn]

It works, I was just turbo dump and did it on the world anguish one instead of the dungeon one

used an other pathsput on the dungeon one and it worked

[nimble dawn]

Oh wow

now I see it

Store rpice are affected by total guild level or highest guild level?
My demonforged tools went from 55 tower proofs to 110 tower proof after I leveled up the dungeon anguish level

LOL

[granite cove]

It's highest guild level

[nimble dawn]

Well still

[granite cove]

and it's 55 + anguish level at 3 it will go up to 168

[nimble dawn]

I heard you guys saying it was disproportional, I did not expect (cost * level)

it's not +, it's *

[granite cove]

55 per level same as * level

[nimble dawn]

Feels bad if you want to mostly grind 1 type or two of anguish but you want to buy something from an other type you farm less

[somber nymph]

At this point I'm just hoping Odie has heard the waves of complaints and is cooking up changes we'll see in #patch-notes 😅

[nimble dawn]

unless the demon tool proof type changes every day

[somber nymph]

It does

But the price does not

[nimble dawn]

okay, at least there is that

[granite cove]

Well Raid price is lower but yeah

[nimble dawn]

we are still on day 1

[granite cove]

Well day 3 for some of us 😄

Day 2 for Orna folks technically

[nimble dawn]

I think upgrade costs for anguish level are high but super reasonable if the goal is a long ass marathon

[somber nymph]

We're 24 hours in for Orna

48 hours for Aethric

(roughly)

[nimble dawn]

Feels like getting an ascension level compared to before where I could buy a new anguish level after doing 8 dungeons

[granite cove]

I am ok with that price increase, it should feel harder each level imo

Def stopping at 4 when I get the tokens today for it

For Dungeons anyway

[nocturne night]

I agree. I like the levellup costs. It feels rewarding to unlock them

Big milestones

Which also goes hand in hand with each levellup directly increasing guild allegiance

[nimble dawn]

yeah

it was wierd how I could level the guild by staying on anguish 1

now it really 1 to 1 represent how much you have progressed

it's almost if tower guild leveled by building towers, unlocking celestial classes and weapons

Also noticed, tons of new specialisations added to various guilds as aligence levels

[nocturne night]

Also if my math is correct, the amount of dungeons you need to complete to increase the level does increase per level, but since so does the drop rate, the increase is logarithmic

[nimble dawn]

which is fair, it was almost an inverse logarithmic for previous one, became easier and easier to get tokens

[nocturne night]

Like:
Level 1 -> 2 is ~30 dungeons
Level 11 -> 12 is ~150 dungeons
Level 40 -> 41 is ~208 dungeons
Level 249 -> 250 is ~237 dungeons

This is, however, assuming that:

1. There is no proof cap
2. Proof drop rate rolls over (so 105% proof drop rate guarantees 1 proof and gives 5% chance at a second proof)

[nimble dawn]

proof caps at 50%

acording to Odie

[nocturne night]

Proof does not cap at 50%
Also according to odie

[gloomy torrent]

[nimble dawn]

oh thanks for the clarification

[soft minnow]

Yeah, if the goal is another 7 years, then well there’s no rush I suppose.

[nimble dawn]

Anguish has time to be remade a few times lol

[uncut gate]

Except for Apple players... we're still a week away from playing the new content.

[nimble dawn]

Did not expect the bougie apple tax to come with android-tested content

by the time you have it, the content will be stable and adjusted!

[uncut gate]

Bonus! I hadn't thought of that!

[nocturne night]

nono, apple will have to appprove the stability and adjustments too

dw (or, well, w)

[granite cove]

So why would Odie say it caps at 50%, then say it doesn't cap? @short osprey what was your cap at 50 Ang in Beta?

[supple cape]

I'm seeing some discussion on how dot damage is now applying before a cleanse and killing redlining players, is this intended? The patch notes just say that dot damage no longer occurs on the same turn it is applied.

If it's intended then I guess using ASG is now even more annoying.

[somber nymph]

#1084635587715281028

I haven't seen a report on it yet

[nocturne night]

Proof drop rate wasn't particularly indicative in beta of what it is in live

[granite cove]

It didn't change?

[nocturne night]

The number wasn't capped

But the actual drops were wonky

you got one per floor at most

which is definitely not how it works in live

[granite cove]

Yes but 2% for proofs on the screen showed the same

2% per level*

[short osprey]

Yeah all the rates are completely different, as at Despair level 50 in beta I had 61% proof rate

[granite cove]

Weird so far all mine have been the same

I also didn't get up to 50 though 😄

[granite cove]

This defintely read as a cap when he said up to a 50% chance but seems like he clarfied that so thanks!

[nimble dawn]

Question, the stats displayed on anguish gear for the anguish bonus, is this added on top of normal stat, or the number displayed is normal stat + the anguish bonus?

[short osprey]

The numbers in red are the items stats when used in anguish

[nimble dawn]

thanks

[wooden bridge]

Is it true that upgrading to Anguish level 50 needs 140k proofs?

[sinful vapor]

Did tonight's patch also add some extra stuff to the paths? I'm seeing quality bonus on all the paths now, not just world farming

[dim robin]

I was doing endless, only lvl 1 ang, I exited the dungeon, re-entered the dungeon, and voila.

[grizzled halo]

Just a quick observation I made, one of my bonuses for dungeon anguish gives me 2% tower shards? Will this reflect in towers or is it a glitch?

I really like the guild rewards tree that's been implemented but noticed there isn't one for anglers guild. And I feel being able to unlock bof and dof via the reward tree cheapen the grind we had to get to 2000 proofs but it is at lv15 so it may take just as much guild xp to get it.

[nocturne night]

That looks like a monument to me

Which uses Tower path, not dungeon path.

[opal atlas]

Sorry for my ignorance, can i choose different path, or just one?

[nocturne night]

You can travel through all four major paths. In each path you are given four options of bonuses and maluses. There you can only pick one - and to change your choice you need a somewhat hard to obtain item so choose carefully

[nocturne night]

BoF and DoF via levels like all the other specs makes the most sense thematically.

Consider the benefit of paying the proof cost the fact that you got to use the spec up to one year early

[opal atlas]

Ook, i m interested in horde boss dungeon, which path i should choose?

[sweet basin]

Melancholy..

[gray silo]

I suggest the old raid bosses to assign level 1 of the ambush, so that there is a point from their killing not only in the raider's medals

[grizzled halo]

Ah ok it was thanks 🙏

[grizzled halo]

I see your point, and I have had loads of fun with them since unlocking

[glass mango]

Does anguish 2.0 shop still scale unfairly or has it been changed?

[granite cove]

Yes

Still Scales unfairly

[glass mango]

Lol, guess im staying at lvl 1

[glass mango]

It also feels weird that it seems all proofs are valued equally despite them being vastly different in how easy they can be farmed

[granite cove]

Agony ones are adjusted while the other 3 are not

[pulsar scroll]

Im loving Anguish 2.0 so far. Great job NF 🥳🤘🙏

[dim jacinth]

agreed, also love having "of titans and giants" arround for the launch

[languid adder]

Okay so this is what I've got from reading as much of this treat as i can, and here is my feedback so far.

What i like:

• Shiny new ornate popup
• Design of the guild feels nice
• The melancholy proof is just a broken gauntlet key and i love it
• Finally, things we potentially cannot oneshot anymore!

While the concept and gameplay loop of anguish is extremely fun and draws me in, looking at the rewards and progression turns my stomach.

• Dynamic Costs...? So the higher we go, the more stuff costs, aka, progressing anguish has no motivation but guild level.
• The insane costs to level up anguish, especially with an exponential growth factor like this, are insane, and extremely high. I could see a point in that, if we didnt have
• shackles, the way they are designed is just a job to stronger players. You will either stick to level 4 and prefarm tokens to upgrade to further levels, or take the shackles, lose an insane amount of power on 5 and basically lose-lose regardless

How to fix things imo:

• No dynamic costs. Higher level gives more proof should be more rewarding, not less. Adding that the game flow will be slowed down regardless, and looking at current reward multipliers compared to beta, there is no point in playing high anguish now except for raw fun. For farming, rewards, or anything else, just stick to 1-4.
• Reduce the scaling of proofs for the next levels. Gameplay flow will get slower and increase the time to progress to the next stage regardless, even if proof costs would have kept at 110 always; exponentially adding +101,5% base cost is making progressing hell, it would take thousands of thousands of proofs for strong players to finally play content designed for their power.
• make the level before shackles exist (4) the base value. Example: If lv 4 had 14% proof chance, then lv 5, if unshackled, gives 14% + the reduced increase from said level. Switching to 5 and gaining LESS rewards then level 4 makes no sense whatsoever. (No space left)

I would continue writing more but i hope i made the points clear^^ at questions, pls @ me

[languid adder]

The fact that it scales at all makes the point in higher levels obsolete... I dont really understand what odie thought making those changes we never had in beta. (Or missed, but i feel like i wouldve noticed that i have to pay more the more effort i put into the guild).
I guess its a way to keep people from just farming at 4, but the reason they do is not cause its good for farming, the reason is that shackles are a badly executed concept and the rewards recieved are not worth the effort regardless.

[granite cove]

Quick FYI so you don't have a mini heart attack like me - Pathspur are considered currency, so if you sent them to storage and are looking under items, they won't be there.

[granite cove]

In beta everything was super low cost and didn't scale. Odie did say he is looking at this and that release was the only place to really test economy stuff

[languid adder]

Oh :o i didnt even think about that, thank you for telling me^^ wouldnt be the first items that just disappear or get dismantled automatically when i sent them back to inventory

[umbral blaze]

I think scaling is fine, but the amount it scales is not

[glass mango]

Phrased abit aggresively but yeah the scaling makes leveling kinda worthless

[granite cove]

Many of us feel that scaling the tools and resources isn't sufficient; simply scaling the levels is challenging enough.

As we level up some things should become easier

[languid adder]

Im aware of that! Im just pointing out that the current scaling (and existing of increasing prices per higher level) is unreasonable, even as a launch.

[glass mango]

I feel like it would be better to make %proof drop increase slower rather than implement scaling since it makes your proofs worth less if you level up

[granite cove]

Currently cost doubles and adds a +1 per level while our gains only increase an average of 2%

[languid adder]

Its phrased aggressively because i cannot see a singular reason behind it. Normally, i can say "oh but then this and that, and from this perspective it makes sense" and then i kinda see who profits from it and from which point of view the decision was made.
Here its just... I feel cucked out of my power, and Ang 2.0 is dangling in front of me, but engaging with it, even tho i really want to, everything in my gut says NO, RUN in its current form.

[granite cove]

1400 for 1 demon tool at anguish 25 while I am only getting 50% more proofs is super rough

Especially because I would need 24 tools to bring my item up to 25

And then I have to use Crucibles on top of that to get the stat I want

[languid adder]

Aquiring rewards slower the more you progress in something in general is a terrible concept with no reasonable justification behind it regardless...

There is exceptions like ascensions, as the power you gain may be slower, but also every ascension sets you apart much further from beeing in danger then the last, so there is a point behind it.

[granite cove]

We already get that as we chase higher percentage items and ascensions

I can't go for 200 Ornate with an element on armour out of the gate 😄

well I could...but I would be seriously disapointed

[languid adder]

In general the rates asked from us in anguish from any perspective are insane. Even if i play orna full time, i dont see a reasonable pacing in new anguish content.

Its .. the content is amazing. Just everything that is not directly the combat or upgrading of equipment is completely off the charts, and thats a real bummer

[granite cove]

I am working on Anguish 4 in dungeons today I did 64 dungeons yesteray and I think I need roughly that today to hit it

[languid adder]

Biggest concern i see is the shackles, and how they work currently. Fine for new players who just start ascensing, a direct spit in your face for players who have the power to archieve their designed power level faster.

[granite cove]

Yeah, Shackles has always been a huge concern, I am trying to decide if I want to takle that or just try to save up demon tools to skip up several levels

[languid adder]

Im just keeping it on ang1, im not willing to invest any time in a system in a video game that is asking me to play it full time to make any progress. Orna is a grinding game, but DAMN. Thats dispriportionate for orns standards.

[granite cove]

But with current scaling I should have stayed at level 1

[languid adder]

If i am honest to you, current rates means that anything above 1 is punishment, and you should stick at 1.

Why did we push the update if its released in a state that is basically unenjoyable right before a new event that will get the majority of the time.

I wanna love the new anguish, concept is SO GOOD, fighting is SO GOOD.
But im not a masochist :(

[umbral blaze]

Because the beta didn't have enough people to test organic progression

[languid adder]

That doesnt explain the adaptive pricing tho

[umbral blaze]

So only balancing was fixed and the patch was pushed out

[somber nymph]

No, I wouldn't say that

Prices and progression was changed for the beta

Realistictly I do think Odie maybe could've revealed pricing ahead of time, but it isn't that big of a deal that it needs to be adjusted immediately post launch.

Anguish is long form content, it being imperfect for a week isn't ruining anyone's life 😅

[umbral blaze]

It was changed because people didn't want to spend time organically increasing the guild level for testing in beta when they could be farming live so it's kinda halfway I guess

[languid adder]

It is literally the backbone of progression, i would say it is the most important thing post launch.

[granite cove]

We had people complain and ask for proofs in beta to test stuff

a few people like Sirith did an awesome job progressing though

after I get Dungeons, Towers and Raids to 4 I will probably sit on proofs

and wait for adjustments

And at this pace we are talking about at least 2-3 weeks

Not including the new event

[somber nymph]

Yep, and it'll get fixed. Some people are panicking or yelling at Odie though when it doesn't need to be fixed right this second because Odie is just one man and he's working through the kinks

[languid adder]

As the increased rewards are minimal and the added time spent (at least for me at AL99) isnt comparing at all i just stick to 1 and start hoarding

[granite cove]

Yeah if I could do over I would have stayed at 1 for sure

[languid adder]

I get that! I just wish we got a confirmation and a general plan, like, hey we focus on earth event now, or, hey, we know, give us a few days.
Communication.

[granite cove]

but for now I will push to 4 and pray

[somber nymph]

We can all take a collective deep breath and just patiently grind some anguish as we wait for adjustments

[granite cove]

Odie did say he is looking at it

[languid adder]

May i ask where it was posted?

[somber nymph]

I'll leak from the ORN chat that Odie was still up at 10pm last night making anguish changes.

[languid adder]

Oh god...

Also, why is Odie like, the best indie dev out there.
I always feel like i wanna write a wall of text praising him cause damn he did so much for us, and he is the reason i have spent 5 years on this game without regret.

[granite cove]

Trying to find it, I am in too many discords lol

[languid adder]

Its fine! Just asking for a bit more direct communication. A blog type channel in here, where odie can post its thoughts, for example

His*

[languid adder]

Thank you

So just grind tokens and wait, its gonna be fine eventually, i got it

Just really hope the shackle system gets some much deserved love.

[bleak mural]

Shackle: what about meeee 😅

[raven bane]

Basically agree on all counts. For the shackles, I felt a lot of this issue on the beta. If the goal is to encourage more active play, I'm sort of discouraged from going up past 4, at least until the reward rate is 4x the Ang 4 rate, since I can just blow through it without AL. The modifiers and difficulty later on accomplish the active play element enough IMO. Eventually, with shackles, you feel kind of encouraged to play solo rather than horde, which feels less active than unshackled horde. If the goal is just to slow down progress, well its achieved but at the expense of fun factor IMO. I'm actually curious what the adjustment HoA got for the shackles was. "- In Hero of Aethric, the Anguish 2.0 ascension shackle penalty is reduced"

[languid adder]

I still dont understand why both games, beeing essentially the same items, same classes and same power, get different rates.

Just make it that shackles INCREASE your reward for every ascension level you lose, or that shackles dont work on your highest unlocked anguish so you can progress to your designed level faster.

[raven bane]

By the same token, I think AL requirements for level up dont need to exist, if someone wants to play harder for more reward let them.

[languid adder]

I understand the punishment of not using the shackles, but not giving us a reward for accepting them if they take 90% of our power, then, its just a lose-lose scenario with zero reason to engage with it whatsoever.

[languid adder]

I agree, if we balance hard cheese like stasis.
Stasis makes every content obscolete with the right build and im tired of pretending it should have more then 50% stun rate.

[bleak mural]

This is shackle from HoA. Idk if it adjusted already or not

[raven bane]

I think a lot of this was just due to beta commentary from the respective playerbases, though I'm not sure that group was very representative of the typical playerbase. I agree that it makes sense for shackles to award more, working backwards.

[raven bane]

Seems like gear and proof reduction is the same as orna, but the other modifiers are not as high

[bleak mural]

But with that chance proof 🥲 i will stay at 4 forever

[granite cove]

Our Scaling is slower, so we will be able to reach a higher Anguish Level before you all, if everything else is considered. Not sure what the shackle penalty reduction is for sure, though. The HoA community wanted it to be easier - some of us wanted it to be the same, but we were a less popular voice.

[languid adder]

Its funny how you just lose going to 5. Having less then on 4 makes no sense at all 😭

[languid adder]

Odie wants us all to enjoy the content how its designed, and i agree
But then dont only punish us if we dont wanna, reward us for doing so if we grinded for thousands of hours. Like, whats the benefit of the current system :(

[languid adder]

So HoA is weak >:)

[granite cove]

Yeah 😦

And now we get to be made fun of by the Orna Community

More than we did before

[languid adder]

I dont like toxic behaivor, and im sorry for you as you didnt wanna chicken, but the community has chosen in that regard...
Why ever they would.

[granite cove]

95% of people when asked if they want something easier will say yes

[nocturne night]

I mean, you don't lose if you shackle.

But I get what you mean.

[granite cove]

Isn't it still major loss of rewards if you don't shackle starting at 5?

[nocturne night]

Yea

[raven bane]

Id argue even if you do shackle, mid-high AL player at Ang4 will clear dramatically faster than shackled Ang5-10+ player by a significant margin to make it so the value is still there for ang4.

[sinful vapor]

Yeah wait shouldn't the ang4 rewards be the baseline for all unshackled content

Ang4 unshackled to ang 5 unshackled is currently harder with less rewards

[languid adder]

I either lose basically all power, or i lose basically all rewards.
There is no win.

[languid adder]

Exactly.
It makes zero sense that under any circumstance you will get less in anguish 5 then in 4.

[umbral blaze]

Quick, someone check new prices

[left mauve]

this price scaling thingy is so wrong in so many aspect

sorry to say that but it is bad game design

[cinder jolt]

And it seems it was actually intended

[left mauve]

"here ma man, pay a ton of proof to make the next farm 20% harder and get less reward 'cause the proof loot chance will rise by 1%, but the costs by 100%"

https://tenor.com/view/john-travolta-gif-25290651

grind harder > get punished for it. but eh, enjoy this brand new flair from guild reward 👌

[nimble dawn]

I am going to stay on tower/monument 1 to farm tools

not getting any anguish gear from tower content

so i can raise my dungeon and raid levels for the gear

[left mauve]

Same, cant see a single reason to level up anguish atm

[granite cove]

Odie will work on prices probably after this new content release

[thin storm]

I'm personally ok with the cost to level up the anguish, but not good to have the tools increasing price, considering we probably need to do a lot of teoricrafting on higher levels, changing gear/weapons is going to be insane if the costs keep getting higher

My 2 cents

[granite cove]

I think a lot of us agree but Odie also doesn't want these items to become super easy to obtain so I am sure there will be some type of balance he works to achieve for that

[paper void]

Hey, so there is a lot going on in this thread. When a common complaint gets scrolled off page due to a non-productive message about said common complaint, it really doesn’t drive the conversation in a good direction

[umbral blaze]

Please add the great monster aspects back to ang shop

[paper void]

This stuff has been answered above. Wait for the adjustment

[grave fulcrum]

would we think 35 proofs for lvl 1 to 2 and then altering the prices to go up for each level after be reasonable or possibly each path having a different lvl cost depending on the difficulty to grind the content

example being towers are likely gonna be the most difficult content with depending on the week the least access but monuments are somewhat easier so a mid proof cost per level makes sense, but raids are only accessible by summoning scrolls or event locked items a low proof cost for level, dungeons being the most accessible having a higher/highest proof per level and world farm being the most time consuming to get proofs being slightly above raids but below towers.

[granite cove]

Each path does have a different cost right now. If you leave say Tower at 1 then the demon tool is only 55 again

[grave fulcrum]

so im thinking lowest to highest being
1 raiding 10 proofs for lvl 1-2
2 world farming 35 proofs lvl 1-2
3 towers 60 proofs lvl 1-2
4 dungeons 85 lvl 1-2

[grave fulcrum]

im talking about the cost to lvl each path being different based on time and resources spent

[granite cove]

Raiding has different prices

The other 3 could use adjustment

[grave fulcrum]

These were just taken the cost to upgrade each path all costs 110

[grizzled halo]

So how come the anglers guild didn’t get a reward tree? 🤔I really like the new update.

[grave fulcrum]

which brings me back to each path having thier own dynamic cost depending on time and resources spent and a general idea as stated above

[granite cove]

x

They are a lot lower for sure

[somber nymph]

Does anyone have numbers for the new prices (/scaling rate)?

[granite cove]

Level 1 is now higher at 58

Was 55 earlier, don't have prices for my Level 4 stuff as my other tools are only agony proofs

I do think these went up as well though

Was 18 for Pathspur

[somber nymph]

I see all the same numbers as you there lol

Anyone have Despair or Agony leveled?

@nocturne night , @dim jacinth I think you both had Agony levels (and different agony levels), what are your prices?

[nocturne night]

my Agonycle is 2

[nocturne night]

The prices are exactly the same as this

[somber nymph]

Now hopefully Yoshi can give a number, since he was level 3

That is exactly what we were hoping though as long as it's not a bug; prices scaling at least slightly slower than proof income scales

[paper void]

The new scale has a bit higher of a floor, but less scaling level to level

[dim jacinth]

24/48 for me

[nocturne night]

Seems much more reasonable

[broken pike]

Boo for the reduced conq guild rewards 🫠 no more unique ara there

[somber nymph]

DoF/BoF needed to be reduced lol

[broken pike]

So any word or reason as to why great aspects were removed from anguish guild?

Well just reduce those two lol

They're practically free in bof now

Or maybe swap jewel of destruction and the ara for the conq guild?

The ara went from 16 ppl being able to access it to 52 ppl being able to. JoD is free from arch paths so idk why it would have a higher lvl req than a unique ara

[grave fulcrum]

52 people is less than 1% of the playerbase so youre still part of the top 1% dont worry

[timber furnace]

So, now lveling up anguish is a good option??

[somber nymph]

Yes now you can level up

[granite cove]

We know what the scale is yet?

[last brook]

Boo indeed. I see we all get a participation crown at lvl 60 now as well. Congrats guys.

[glass mango]

Is there a easier way to get the dungeon proofs than running normal dungeons? At t10 you only have 6 floors with an average of 3 enemies dropping proofs which gives you horrendous rates.

[broken pike]

Yeah, I don't think the aura or the crown should have been reduced.

[languid adder]

Fully agree

[languid adder]

Even more agree. Its probably the first 100% objectively bad decision i have seen in Orna, and most likely will ever see

[languid adder]

That is... Basically almost realistic to archieve for anybody who doesnt work orna full time

Impressed!

So, issues i see still persists:

• Shop prices scale, punishing you for progressing
• Shackles set you in a lose-lose situation and dont offer a catchup mechanic to reach a more realistic level for your power if you are a strong player at anguish release, not justifying their effect
• Level cost increase is scaling too extreme
• Raids select anguish level when spawned, not when entered for the first time

How you twist and turn it, i know its called anguish, but if the content is designed to punish you for progressing it and/or beeing already a strong player at its release, i dont see a point engaging with it.

I am glad things get adressed, and i understand natureblight is important too (even tho from what I've seen so far it is literally just terra's day 2.0)

Also i want to add that i cant imagine the stress the team must be under right now so, im giving it all the time it needs and see what changes from patch to patch. We can grind proofs already to engage with adjusted anguish, so staying on 1 and waiting for adjustments is fully fine.
Please dont forget that this is probably the most ambitious thing NF has ever done in the past years.

[timber furnace]

People don't like shackles?? Anguish is supposed to be difficult

[sinful vapor]

Raids being anguished on summon is meant to refresh the events for us

Grinding scrolls matters again

[paper void]

The prices scale because proof rates scale as well. The price hike should be more linear to the rate growth now

These are items that need to feel equally weighty for every level of anguish - they should never feel easier to get. Hence the scaling

[timber furnace]

The malus of crit chance and crit dmg Hurt a lot(not right now, I'm lvel 2 ), the best class for Anguish is going to be Gilga at this Rate

[paper void]

I heard Gilga was dead though

[timber furnace]

Right, then the best option is deity spiked shield

[granite cove]

Summoner BP

[timber furnace]

The price scale also affects The price of the mats??

[granite cove]

Think it's just tools

Crucible, Spur and Demon Tools

[timber furnace]

Then there's a reason to lvel up more(you can buy more mats)

[granite cove]

Yup

Knight said it's pretty fair now and people are leveling up again

and I generally trust/agree with Knight's opinion

[sinful vapor]

Here's the thing though - even if the items are always exactly matching cost to proof rate, the demand for them only increases as the levels increase

So progression actually slows

[languid adder]

So as the proof gain increases by about 2%, buy the content gets harder and therefor slower, that should be an automatically given occurance, that does not need scaling? :o

[languid adder]

I've not seen people leveling up because the major issue i have read is the price increase of anguish level proof requirement? :o

[languid adder]

Grinding scrolls always mattered. You can always get a better ornate, or a second one for a build. That did not change.

Now i just have a raid pile that i prepared for anguish 2.0 that i cant use.

I will not regrind equipment anyway, i will use tools to upgrade as good as i can. I dont see the point in redoing my entire progression

[sinful vapor]

Tools require quite a lot of materials for each level

It's a grind either way

[languid adder]

And i rather take the material grind.
Doesnt really influence my stance that raids should chose their anguish when engaged first; my towers of olympia also didn't stay on anguish 0 as i built them a few years ago, or did they?

Looking at my suggestions, i am also not alone in it. X3

Also in regards to the scaling of tool prices... Not many People did reach shackled levels yet.

[safe olive]

Hey folks, do these Proofs drop from 10-11* mobs only? i mean, i usually kill low-tier mobs in low-floor Towers

[thin storm]

Yes

[safe olive]

And about anquishforging, it generally makes gear worse on lv 1, right?

[obsidian jackal]

"Anguishforging" increase the stats by 3% multiplied per Anguish level on the gear (if I'm not wrong)

So if it's a normal gear and you Anguished it, it will become Anguished 1 with +3% stats

And after that you can use the Crucible to add an extra bonus stat on it : #📚│guides-and-tools message

Basically, as I see the actual state of Anguish

the best choice would be anguishing your best stuff and to roll the best stats before trying to upgrade your Anguish levels

Basically, you'll need to farm World monster and Raids

Does someone knows if multiple Rings of Sacrifice stack ?

[granite cove]

When you use a Demon Tool it will give base stats, you also need to get a Crucible to give it the additional Anguish skill

[somber nymph]

They do give you multiple instances of negative stats

Ring of sacrifices stacking wouldn't really make sense though, if they did I stack I don't even know what that would mean

What the item does is just give you the Affinity Candle effect

[obsidian jackal]

Oh forgot about this

I'm stoopid :D

Then just 2x Lover's Lost and go farm

[cinder jolt]

Demonforged tools is always despair?
I thought the type of proof changed daily

[granite cove]

it has a 25% chance to be any type

[thin storm]

does the currency needed change for those tools daily or is it the same path?

[somber nymph]

I think it's random daily. It was just randomly the same today

[thin storm]

hopefully tomorrow is not randomly the same

[mossy wave]

or - if we complain enough - it could be all proofs everyday #💡│suggestions message

[obsidian jackal]

Not a single downvote ☕

[languid adder]

45/0 is solid.

Mine with "make all tower fights drop proofs" and "give exp for spelunker guild on mob kills" are at about 30/0

I do hope before we get a next big update we get an update soly focussed on addressing long standing community concerns, there is SO MUCH bulked up.

[severe junco]

What do you guys think is content on anguish lvl 1 with the right bonus stat on each gear slot going to be easier than no anguish?

Since the bonus doesnt seem to scale and just gives a flat amount in a certain range

[raven bane]

IMO played with it a lot more. Overall the bones of the system are incredible but needs a few adjustments. In my eyes an ideal system would look something like:

1. Base proof rate and growth halved, to accommodate for these other changes
2. Level up cost cut to 10-20% of current
3. Unshackled maintains baseline rate with shackled giving up to double rewards.

IMO there's a bit of a tension in the current system, a lot of the very grindy efficient players should enjoy new system but dislike the lack of efficiency from switching to 1.0 and not being able to use AL. On the other hand, people who just want a strategic hard mode are burdened with tons of grinding, huge economic need for scrolls etc. The overlap of those groups is a slim list.

[livid sonnet]

does shackle increase per AL lost?, like if a Shackled 100 vs Shackled 50 have a huge difference?

[raven bane]

Yes but I think it caps around 75 AL differential. So very high al players won't see a reduction until like ang 40

[languid adder]

Im fine with the level costs personally, just not with the scaling.

Tho fully agree to the shackles. Currently its a lose-lose and a direct jab to powerful players as there is no way you will ever level higher then 4 without having the proofs to just go far enough for your power level. Cause 5 is just a severe downgrade, either you get basically nothing or you lose an insane amount of power.

[languid adder]

Not taking shackles reduce rewards per ascension you have above the designed level
Accepting them just removes the AL temporarily without any benefit or reward

Also why does 5 give less then 4 if i dint shackle, that does not make any sense.

[livid sonnet]

yeah i saw that Ang 5 non-shackled like made the proofs be 0.98% or something

[raven bane]

I'm a very grindy player though and I see the level up costs as problematic, hard to ask a player to do 60 dungeons to get from 3-4 or whatever for a 2% boost

[languid adder]

If the higher level is a straight downgrade either power or rewards, you just get punished for doing it?

[livid sonnet]

i think non-shackle should be the same, and shackle give increased rewards (although x2 seems a bit too much)

[raven bane]

Yeah it caps at 95% reduction, which is what a lot of high AL players will see unshackled for a while.

[languid adder]

If it only were 60 at that point...

[languid adder]

Or we just dont go past 4 as its idiotic to do so currently

[raven bane]

This is why I suggest base value go down, shackled would be the same, unshackled would still be less but wouldn't face the jarring drop off from 4-5

[languid adder]

And 5 should scale off of 4 rewards... Going from 17% to 0,95% makes zero sense

[raven bane]

And only 50% less which is a lot more reasonable than 95 imo

[livid sonnet]

let's say there's a static 2% each level, lvl 4 is 18%, lvl 5 is 20% if unshackled, but if shackled it could go "1% per AL lost" and "1% per 2 AL Lost when AL > 75" or something

[languid adder]

Or you could just see a reduction in level up costs depending on how much higher your AL is compared to the required one, so we can actually start playing on a level designed for us before 2026

[livid sonnet]

but then again if you lose 75 ALs, you're basically getting 95% drop rate (if my math is right)

[raven bane]

I think 95% in any circumstance is really bad, Im incentivized to sit on 4 forever

[languid adder]

To be direct, current anguish progression is just a jab to top players, and as you said, it incentivises to never progress it, as you get less rewards, and less reason the more you level up

[livid sonnet]

but wouldn't reduction in cost just trigger a "i'll stay in a good income spot and then reach higher Anguish level for a reduction cost?

omg my keyboard isn't keyboarding

[languid adder]

Maybe, but if youre that dedicated to reach high anguish, might as well just play, is probably faster.

[raven bane]

At current rates I don't see myself ever reaching unshackled play

[languid adder]

I dont really mind how we do it, getting a lose-lose is just not feasable.
Please reduce cost scaling, and make the shackled levels easier to go through for people who dont belong there.

[livid sonnet]

im AL 27, so i don't think i'll get that much punishment when i reach Anguish 5 right?

[languid adder]

Which AL are you

[raven bane]

But I think I would still be incentivized to level up if my income wasn't gutted

[raven bane]

197

[languid adder]

I think anguish 50 is AL 140...

So basically this is "Geppu you used refineries, now pay the price >:("

[raven bane]

I think I become unshackled in the low 70s, with current level up costs I'll be ascending faster than I can level anguish lol

[raven bane]

Not a refinery abuser compared to many

I just was top 10 old anguish and have around lvl 100 in seers and tower

[livid sonnet]

if you had 2 refinieries you are an abuser (just kidding lol)

[languid adder]

Let me rephrase.
You MAY have used refineries now NO FUN for you >:(

The more i look at anguish 2.0 the more i feel its designed to punish people who used refineries.
But if it was that important of an issue, there were 4 years to adress it.
Hmm...

The progression just doesnt make sense as it is, and im trying to understand what's going on 😭

[broken pike]

I'm curious how many players have opted to stay on 1.0 until they're forced to go to 2.0. 2.0 really just sounds miserable, especially with no incentive to go beyond level 4.

[raven bane]

I wouldn't say miserable as the system is really cool. Just some issues that are pretty easily adjusted imo

[livid sonnet]

i'm al 27 so i'll be stuck at ang 2.0 like 6 or something :v

[broken pike]

If the intention was to make it a harder/longer grind so it's not too fast and easy, how likely is it things are adjusted though? It will probably take a while before any drastic adjustments are made until he has data to show whether players are participating or not

[raven bane]

Yeah I think if enough players express dissatisfaction with certain elements we might see some change. Ultimately the system is infinite so I don't see much harm in speeding up some of the earlier stuff.

[somber nymph]

At that point, grind harder to gain more ALs. At 27 if you work toward them they can come pretty quick.

[broken pike]

I'll just sit on 1.0 until it's taken probably. Not because of the grind, but I need to farm like 1k great aspects to hit lvl 90 on the travelers guild

[raven bane]

I know the system targets slightly different groups but I think it is not a positive sign if many of the old top anguish players are not switching and/or expressing dissatisfaction

[broken pike]

Well what everyone is saying about it is also another reason I don't want to switch. I don't see anyone going beyond 4. I see a couple on 5 for raids, but that's about it

If he puts the aspects back I'll jump over though. I'm AL locked for the foreseeable future being locked on 5 different mats

This is looking more and more the reason for removal and that's disheartening

Not saying it is, but two packs in a row showing up with them after the removal is eh

[raven bane]

Tbh the only reason I think shackles are not more talked about is because there's likely a significant number of people who haven't encountered them yet. I've been grinding pretty hard even for me and was in the first release batch and pushing to 4 is a struggle, much less 5.

[somber nymph]

Odie didn't include aspects being removed in the patch notes, so I made a bug report: https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1378031822994149416

[broken pike]

Yeah the amount of proofs to level is crazy. Rough for low level players especially that don't grind as hard. I can see them being pushed away from the content

Maybe the shackles should be on lvl 10+

Or 8. Idk what feels like a good number to those that switched over

[somber nymph]

I think it would make the most sense if shackles were on from level 1

That way there's never a level you're incentivized to stick at

[granite cove]

Well, in my opinion, this content isn't meant for newer or lower-level players. It's the endgame. Also, shackles won't hurt lower AL players because they will be at that AL

[raven bane]

Per above, I think 95% reduction is way too high, but frankly I don't really agree with shackles in concept. But if baseline proofs were lower and shackles doubled I could see that as very fair

[languid adder]

Content amazing, progression miserable

[languid adder]

The problem is that getting to the higher levels for your progression is punishing and full of unfun design decisions i would say. Cost increases, shackle system, etc etc.

[languid adder]

The content with its progression is designed for newer T10 who just started ascending, and doesnt really account for top players at all^^"

[granite cove]

It does account for top players, that's why shackles were put in place, to slow them down from blowing through the content

Newer T10 players shouldn't be doing a lot of ascension and be focusing on getting celestials and gear

[languid adder]

That would... just kill anguish 2.0 for me, and most likely many others.
Punishment after Punishment instead of Reward does not incentivise to engage

[raven bane]

I wouldn't be happy but could stomach the level up costs if I could grind at a reasonable rate using my AL. I am not sure if a person who just wants to play strategically hard content will want to grind at that level.

[languid adder]

Okay let me reformulate it: it is designed for newer t10 players who just started ascending and purposefully designed to punish stronger players progressing through it.

[raven bane]

And just psychologically the structure is weird for rewards to be decreased after 4

[broken pike]

Thanks. There are wayyy too many danger noodles for me to be staring at my phone collecting aspects that may pop up. I can live with purchasing them in a shop if there is never going to be an auto collect feature while having the app open. Not a single day has gone by that I haven't run into at least one copperhead and my dog doesn't see them most of the time so I have to keep my eyes peeled while he's off leash

[raven bane]

Like for reference to get from agony 2-3 is going to be about 100 raids, even at al 197 that is a long time to achieve. I can't imagine doing 200 raids at Al 8 to go from 5 to 6. Its a huge economic toll, and will take days. And anguished raid gear will likely be necessary to some extent to push levels if AL isn't a release valve

[languid adder]

We should make more auto collect suggestions and threads in that case :o

[granite cove]

Sorry, I think there is a significant distinction between newer T10 and those working on ascension. A new T10 often doesn't even have all classes unlocked, have home towers, celestial weapons, or classes. This difference can be six months to a year, depending on the level of grinding and how active they are.

I do agree this is more punishing to higher AL people

[languid adder]

Yet still, the content is designed so you progress along with it. The price increases, accord to increased AL cost and the general jist of farming event gear, towers etc. Whenever you get faster at progressing anguish cause of account progression, anguish will just feel like youre as slow as before a few hours later. Its a great system - for new T10 players.
If you tackle it when deemed "too strong", its punishment after punishment. It should be designed in a way so higher players have an easier time coming to their level, not punishing them for beeing strong. It does not make any sense, and its current progression iteration is the worst decision i have ever seen in my 5 years actively playing this game.

[granite cove]

I guess we will just have to fundamentally disagree, this and ascension are the absolute endgame concepts, not a fresh for T10 content.

[raven bane]

A lot of people want hard strategic play and I think that's fine to address with bonuses. But a lot of people just like the feeling of, this content is hard, I got strong enough, its less hard I can move to the harder stuff. Its a key element of RPG games. Right now AL feel more like golden bananas, you just use them to unlock the next level.

[broken pike]

I was just thinking maybe that could be a good argument for having one implemented 😆

[languid adder]

i gladly take the increased difficulty, and lose power according it for it to be called challenging in the studios opinion. But sarcificing thousands of hours of grind for no reward is punishment for no reason.
Reward us for accepting the shackles, period. Even if its just temporary reward buffs, that are only active on the highest unlocked level.

There will be people who will use ang 2.0 just to farm, and making it hard for them is not worth making progression throught it shitty for people who earned their power before anguish II dropped.

i enjoyed doing high anguish dungeons with no farm gear, just for the tokens. And i assume many others had too.
THis... this is just not it, at all. Not how it is right now.

[granite cove]

I lot of us were working on farming anguish in farming gear at this point

[languid adder]

if i go down to very low anguish i could
But i was looking for a challenge instead

Thats also why i understand shackles, just not the lose-lose.

Right way:
More rewards, less power.
More power, less rewards.

[granite cove]

I kind of like Knight's suggestion of Shackles starting at 1 - I also think Shackles could easily be scaleable per level, to do harder for more rewards and easier for less rewards.

[languid adder]

the more rewards point missing when you accept the shackles is why i dont agree with the system

As i said, right way: More rewards, less power -More power, less rewards.
Currently, its Less power or less rewards. Lose-Lose.

The shackles are a great concept, tho they should not function as a raw negative to the player.
I like to play video games to see numbers go up and get rewards i grind for.
If a specific piece of content is telling me their hardest to not engage with it, then i wont.

[granite cove]

What I mean scalable per level is some type of lever that is up to the player to pull

So you as an individual can remove as many AL as you want or a % for greater rewards but it not be a hard level set per level

So say at level one you leave it at base hardness with 0% decrease in AL - you still get some rewards, if you turn it to 100% decrease you would get more rewards than the 0 but everyone would be able to compete and move on

[languid adder]

hmmm... i would rather just have full power less rewards or adjusted power more rewards

just a choice, not the illusion of choice^^"

[sinful vapor]

Primary changes I see as necessary:

• Progression is very slow for the benefits. Slower grinds are fine if the rewards are juicy enough, but the current system seems to be a very high cost for a pretty small boost. It's like ALs, but the grind is even longer

• Shackles should never lower rewards below lvl 4 anguish. This is currently another incentive for staying at a low anguish level. If the rewards were always the same as lvl 4 at least you'd have the choice of increasing difficulty as you go instead of staying at 4 to grind proofs. Even people who just want a difficulty-based grind have no reason to slow down their progress towards said grind

[storm wadi]

Question about the shackles, does it occur every anguish level starting with 5 or is 5 just the first instance of it?

[sinful vapor]

I guess I should ask for input from anyone that has reached shackled levels, but I'm not sure there are any

[sinful vapor]

My unserstanding is that it only applies to 5 and above

So you can choose to hang out at 4

Do any players feel like shackled Anguish 5 is an interesting challenge, or just a delay in getting to their unshackled high anguish?

Is the intended difficulty of Anguish supposed to be high end unshackled, or grinding low levels while shackled?

If it's the former, then shackles should set rewards to ang4 levels. If it's the latter, then every level should be shackled

[nocturne night]

Iirc the intended difficulty is for it to always be difficult

[sinful vapor]

Is the shackled gameplay more enjoyable to you than the prospect of unshackled difficulty at high anguish levels

Or similar enjoyment?

[nocturne night]

They're both enjoyable.

The issue is that the latter can't allow for unshackled profit all the way through the journey, lest people stop at whichever point is most profitable

Aka what people are doing with Ang4 now

[sinful vapor]

By most profitable you mean whatever is easiest effort for them

At 100 ALs I wouldn't be troubled for several unshackled levels, but whatever level I have to stop and think and slow down, I would just stay there

I understand what you mean

Just add shackles to lvl 2 and above and set unshackled rewards to lvl 1 anguish maybe? At that point it's hardly worth it to run unshackled except to grind out some faster levels

[languid adder]

for a reason
Open beta, and check the rates
Its awful

[languid adder]

from the idea, the first. from its current state, the latter

[raven bane]

I honestly think its advantageous to allow the system to be played at varying levels of difficulty. The incentive should be the reward, if the reward is better players are already incentivized to play difficult end. I think the system already does a good job with maluses removing a lot of the afk approach.

I think osrs is a game that does this very well. You can do bleeding edge of content for high rewards or slightly more relaxing for mid reward or pseudo afk for low reward.

[sinful vapor]

Do you think unshackled rewards should scale or stay at a certain level

[languid adder]

Scale, but one level should never grant less then the last

For some reason talking about anguish 2.0 really makes me crave sweets. Why DX

[sinful vapor]

Maybe this just isn't that much of an issue tbh. Shackles should be player preference, not "do it or else you get peanuts"

Scale the rewards appropriately - maybe even a dynamic decrease of rewards based on how many ALs you are unshackling

But don't give less rewards than lvl 4

[languid adder]

i just wanna reach a level accustomed to my AL.
The system is not at all accounted for higher players. If i was a T10 that just started ascending i would be suiper happy rn, but as an AL 99 player, the system has an insane amount of flaws

[sinful vapor]

If someone wants to blast through the lower levels with their ALs, why are we punishing them? They are choosing to take the easy path they earned with their ALs, and are already getting rewarded less because of it. What if we also further incentivize shackled gameplay: Proofs of Shackling

Shackled content gives a new proof that can be used as any of the other 4 proofs

Meanwhile, unshackled gives a low amount of proofs in general (not less than the highest unshackled level) and no proofs of shackling

[livid sonnet]

i'm going to say that shackle vs unshackled is bugged :x , i can't seem to find a reason that lvl 4 is 18% and then lvl 5 is 0.98% for proof rate while losing... uhhhh i don't know what AL the guy was 😛 , i would've think that Lvl 4 is 18%, then lvl 5 increase by only 0.98 for NOT shackling so 18.98%, and then shackles give you "x" amount of reward per AL lost, let's say 75 AL gives you... i dunno a 40% more drop rate, so you get to 58% or something, so you choose either "19%" with your whole power, or embrace the challenge for 58% or something along that

but then i again, i think balancing the drops and everything might be a lot tricker, considering high AL, low AL , etc.etc.

maybe there can be some sort of "Lose X-amount of ALs for X% reward"? but then i think everyone would go the "safe rout to farm" so ... eh... idk

[raven bane]

Problem is this is a very delicate balance to achieve. From playing on the beta, I often found unshackled play more engaging, particularly in situations where shackled play essentially required me to farm solo, while unshackled allowed for difficult horde challenges. Even in current scenario shackled players will sit on the max difficulty they can do horde as solo play is effectively a 25-75% reduction of rewards.

[livid sonnet]

quick q, so the "punishment" for the difference in AL grows greatly? uhhh i'm low AL, so i'm guessing i would "shackle" like on Anguish 5-6 and that's it, would i still be suffering a "high loss" to say something on unshackled vs shackled?... i guess i'll answer my question whenever i reach anguish 5 lol

[somber nymph]

The Shackles would stop effecting you at a very early Anguish level

[raven bane]

Basically, for level 5, the max AL is 8. So every level you are beyond 8 the rewards go down 1% up to a cap of 95. The max AL rises by 3 for every Ang level.

[livid sonnet]

ok so i'm AL 27

that means 19% less rewards for unshackling

[raven bane]

Yep

[livid sonnet]

so if each anguish increase 2%, that means instead of getting "20%" i would be getting what... uhhhhhhhh 19.6%? something like that?

[raven bane]

No you'd get 16.2, the whole value is reduced not just the growth

But just nerfing the growth is an interesting idea...

[languid adder]

Nerfing the growth would be a solution.
5 giving less then 4 under any circumstance is an oversight, as it does not make any sence from player or developer perspective.

the easiest fix i see is adjusting only the growth, not the base, as unshackled levels exist - and slap a .5% reward increase per shackled level, up to a cap of what, 100? (i dont mean flat .5%, i mean scaling .5%, aka 18% + 20 shackled AL aka 10% exponential = 19,8%) 1% would be too much to ask i assume.

Still we have scaling prices and other things that make progressing still unreasonable, so i will hold back until stuff gets fun.

(you will need more tools the higher you go, as you will have a lot of equipment to pull after, also, in bet anguished gear didnt always drop on the level you were but sometimes lower, and i assume the higher you are the more levels difference can exist)

[livid sonnet]

whut, why 16.2? how does that math D:?

[raven bane]

18% + 2% = 20% * .81= 16.2

[languid adder]

so less then 4? :o

[livid sonnet]

oh where does the .81 comes from?

[raven bane]

19% reduction is 81% of total rewards

[timber furnace]

Um, isn't more easy to just make anguish 4 the floor and the every anguish lvel unshackled gives only 10% of the bonus?

[languid adder]

that would not factor in the difference of your AL to the AL designed for

[timber furnace]

Like anguish 5 instead of giving 2% more proofs it gives 0.2% proofs

[languid adder]

aka someone with 1 AL too much would get the same penalty as 100 AL

[timber furnace]

Doesn't matter per lvel is more difficult, which implies a slower solution

[languid adder]

I want a good solution, not a fast solution.

thats the entire reason were talking about this.

[livid sonnet]

i would say

18 + 2*Penalty.

[languid adder]

because we see a problem and we want a proper fix.

[livid sonnet]

so 18+(2*.81)

[languid adder]

A bandaid that would at least not make going to 5 unlogical, just demoralizing

[timber furnace]

That's actually a good solution imo, anguish shackles are made to force people to play without more Als than required, there's no difference between 1 or 100 als more than the limit(for shackles)in that case

[livid sonnet]

yeah so someone with the max penalty would be going what... like .1 if unshackled

[languid adder]

no, its a terrible solution.
If someone who is just 1% stronger gets the same treatment as someone who is double the strength, you dont understand how to math and balance.

[livid sonnet]

so 18.1 -> 18.2 -> 18.3 etc.etc.

for unshackled ofc until you reach the "break point" and start gaining full rewards again

[languid adder]

the system itself is designed in a punishment way, it doesnt reward you, it just demoralizes you to engage with the content.

[livid sonnet]

but if for example , you are AL 300, you'll be getting "95%" penalty every level until you start getting 90% -> 85% etc.etc. and then basically reaching your safe spot,

I think as a "punshiment" for being able to breeze the content should be fine, you keep your AL, but your rewards get "static"

and also the closer you start getting the "safe spot" for unshackled, you'll start getting the ramp of the rewards way faster, as you have "all the previous levels" stacking up

[timber furnace]

That example isn't that great, it seems more like you want a certain penalty bonus for each ALs, which if you can handle it that way is much easier since you can choose how many Als you need and how much bonus you want to lose.

Wait, if you can't choose the Als then is fine

[upper pendant]

Any plan to change the current cost of Spawn of Anguish t9 pet? I think currently it's roughly 835-2500 raids for 2500 proofs of agony?

[languid adder]

still at 95%, i dont see a reasont to go higher the 4 for the next, lets say 10 levels, as content will get much more difficult for the miniscule rewards that will be added

[livid sonnet]

probably but that's because you are like super mega high AL , so "much more difficult" might not be the case?, uhhhh like someone at AL 100, when does it like starts punishing you less? let's say 80%, 70% , 60% ?

someone said each ang = 3 AL, so Anguish 50 is 150 right?

[languid adder]

anguish 5 is ascension 8

[livid sonnet]

and anguish 6?

[languid adder]

i didnt unlock that in beta

you can just make a new beta char, auto attack kill a few T10 mobs for the ang 1 ornate, and then increase anguish level to whatever you want

[livid sonnet]

phone is currently running other game

but let's say it's 3 levels, so

8 , 11, 14 , 17, 20, 23, 26, 29, 32, 35, 38, 41, 44, 47, 50,

so AL 50 = Anguish 20, but at that time you're getting 50% penalty per each level... so if Anguish 4 is 18%, by the time you are anguish 20, the drop rate should be, 26%

[sinful vapor]

• Each anguish level increase requires proofs of shackling in addition to the usual proofs (but less of both of course)
• You obtain proofs of shackling by engaging in shackled content

Increasing each anguish level now requires you to play shackled. In theory you could do just one path shackled and increase the levels for all paths this way. Unshackled content would still give decreased rewards, but more than current.

The idea is to require shackled/difficult content somewhere while still speeding up progression for shackled/unshackled players alike

[livid sonnet]

this for unshackled :v

[timber furnace]

That's almost the same as shackled

In lvel 35 you get 80%(if you choose +2% proofs on every lvel)

[livid sonnet]

an AL 100 shackled at Lvl 5 is 19.8

[timber furnace]

???

[livid sonnet]

or that's what i saw yesterday :V

maybe higher AL i dunno

[languid adder]

And if you cannot play shackled as you dont have the AL, youre just hardstuck. Removes the need for the AL requirement in the first place.

[timber furnace]

Any lvel above the max Als permited is -95% bonus

[livid sonnet]

i was told that it was dependand on the difference xD, so my aL 27 will have a -19% bonus

[languid adder]

It is

[livid sonnet]

so that's why the level 35 unshackled will be almost the same as shackled... that's 2 ALs different xD

[timber furnace]

Really? Soo, whats exactly the problem??

[livid sonnet]

that currently unshackled crushes you

if you have AL 100, you get 0.98% chance at lvl 5 xD

so i'm proposing that above ^ , you get way less bonus

this would be for an AL 150 in theory

i won't tackle "how hard enemies become" tho

=18 + (2MAX(C2/H2,0.05)(A2-4))
this is the formula i used if anyone is interested
C2 is AL needed per anguish
H2 is current AL

[timber furnace]

Ohh, I understand now, it's a good solution

[livid sonnet]

A2 is Anguish Level (-4 because it starts at Anguish 5)

[timber furnace]

Less bonus per lvel, not a reduction to everything

[livid sonnet]

yep

i just can hope odie and others sees it and see how eveyone feels about it, if it isn't good in your eyes, at least i had fun making the formula 😛

[languid adder]

That shackles are A) a lose-lose cause B) they scale their cost base not exponential.
Shackleless Anguish 4 is 18%, shackleless Anguish 5 for me is 0,95%

[livid sonnet]

what do you think of the above :v? should i create a suggestion? hmm

[languid adder]

I think its an oversight that 5 shackleless gives less rewards then 4, and that would make the team aware, surely.

[raven bane]

Maybe an ORN can summarize the discuss with a few of the suggested solutions

[daring terrace]

My ang 5 is better than ang 4

[mystic rose]

You can't make unshackled 5 higher than 4, keep any form of good reward scaling and keep a reason to shackle

[raven bane]

I don't see why its an issue if shackling is still more rewards, as in any of the above solutions.

[mystic rose]

Increase unshackled that much, and you'll just have everyone steamrolling with unshackled

[storm wadi]

Even if unshackled was a linear growth vs exponential for shackled, I think most high AL players would just breeze through the unshackled content to a point where the farm was either worth farming unshackled, or worth shackling for. Not necessarily a bad thing but probably against what Odie has in mind. I like Phils idea of the next level requiring proofs of shackles, that way the player is still in control of how far they want to go but the shackling is still relevant

[mystic rose]

Imo, start shackles on ang1. Then you don't have everyone just farming at ang4 for proofs

[livid sonnet]

If i was AL 100 or something i wouldn't dare to go beyond anguish 4

[grave fulcrum]

or remove shackles so that everyone gets to thier proper anguish level that challanges them then its actually a challange for everyone and not hindering anyone for putting effort to get als

[mystic rose]

The point of shackles is so that more als don't solve every problem

[sinful vapor]

If we believe increasing unshackled rewards to at least the same lvl as ang4 means people will steamroll unshackled until they find a sweet spot, aren't people also just gonna grind ang4 until they have the proofs they need to reach their sweet spot anyway?

[grave fulcrum]

i mean start shackles at anguish 30 or something then

where the people who are already at 100 als arent overly punished for enjoying the al push

and realistically more als should solve every problem

[sinful vapor]

The current implementation means people will stay at ang4 until (maybe) they find a sweet spot of rewards/difficulty. Or they'll just stay at ang4 forever

[grave fulcrum]

cant kill this boss

[livid sonnet]

Make each anguish = 10 ALs so Anguish 50 = AL500

[mystic rose]

Nobody is being punished for having more al's rn

[grave fulcrum]

okay gain some stats and kill

[grave fulcrum]

nah

thats expecting players to reach al 500 in near future

[livid sonnet]

Welp i'll see what the future has for us :x git gud

[storm wadi]

Which honestly isn't the worst thing. The drop rate isn't so terrible that you' can't just farm proofs and then demonwork your way up in levels until you get to a reasonable ang level

[sinful vapor]

Idk I think deincentivizing players to progress in the system is a bad thing

The best way to engage with the system shouldn't be refusing to progress

[timber furnace]

It's still slower than using shackles

[raven bane]

Its frustrating to me because this system was originally framed as the response to endless ascension and the reason to grow more powerful. But the system is effectively discouraging you from using those levels for a long time. I thought I would have content with more weight but got content with more restriction.

[sinful vapor]

Maybe but imagine being AL 100 and having to care about gear for content at AL8

[raven bane]

I don't see why the content can't be lightly tuned to accommodate both

[sinful vapor]

Having to regrind anguished gear for each ang level before reaching your actual intended difficulty level doesn't really sound like fun

"I'm back at AL 8 now so I need anguished gear to progress instead of using my ALs" is not inherently attractive. So yeah, unshackled may very well be faster and more interesting because you get to the good stuff without having to regrind everything

Instead of shackles, maybe the content should be equalized. Sounds like a nightmare to implement though

You're AL 100? So are the monsters

At anguish lvl 1

At that point anguish becomes more about the maluses and not primarily about extra enemy stats. At every anguish level the monsters may get a tiny bit stronger but they'll always start at your AL baseline

[languid adder]

So youre telling me from going from 18% to 0,95% is more reasonable then from 18% to 18,1%?

Or losing 90% of your power for a 2% increase in proof drops?

Just wanted to point out the math.

[mystic rose]

I'm saying that kills all the difficulty in the guild built around difficulty if everyone just runs unshackled

[languid adder]

I am unsure if youre trolling or not. Genuenly.

[languid adder]

We are not having a problems with the existance of shackles, having content that is actually difficult is fun, and thats why we were hyped for 2.0. everybody who doesnt want that type of content stayed at 1.0.

We are debating about the fact current implementation of shackles is a lose-lose and a raw punishment for veteran players. It is either losing most of your speed or so much rewards there is no point in grinding unshackled.

We are trying to find a way to make shackles attractive - mostly by not only punishing you for not using them, but also rewarding you when you accept them - very slight bonuses per lost ascension level would be a great thing, or a severely reduced penalty on your highest current anguish level until you have the tokens to progress.

Shackles are a great idea, but they are doing their hardest discouraging people who worked hard for their power to engage with the new anguish system. And punishing them further by making shackles mandatory or anything like this would just decentivise further.

[granite cove]

How many of you all are doing anguish 5 or higher right now?

[livid sonnet]

Im still anguish 1, and im al27 so shackles and non shackles will probably affect like 6 levels lol, but i was thinking more in those with tons AND tons of Als

[granite cove]

I am curious because I'm seeing a lot of complaining and wondering how much of it is theoretical versus practical. I have only ground out 1 to level 4, and probably a week away from grinding out to 5

[mystic rose]

Almost at ang 7

[raven bane]

I played up to 40ish on beta will be sitting at 4 for time being on live

[timber furnace]

I think this is for tomorrow, save proofs of melancholy if you can(everyone)

[livid sonnet]

In my opinion i asked a couple of people for their current Situation and found they got like super low chance for unshackled and shackled wasn't worth it in terms of rewards so they stayed at 4

[timber furnace]

Anyone else finds strange this bonus? I feel like the bonuses for Armor are the worst

[granite cove]

Yeah we determined that one to be pretty bad lol

Ward recovery isn't bad, accuracy also

[sinful vapor]

Fwiw we don't exactly know what 1% gf chance means

The exact number might not be 1%

[granite cove]

It means 1/198 chance base and 1/99 with the crest on

[sinful vapor]

It's 1/400 base chance

[granite cove]

See that's what I thought and someone else corrected me its 1/200

[sinful vapor]

1/200 for wyrmhunt bosses I believe

Anyway, I think in testing some 1% effects are actually higher, and it seems like 1% is more of a placeholder number

[granite cove]

testing that will be kind of hard heh

accuracy and ward regen probably better imo

[sinful vapor]

Yeah I haven't found godforge chance something to be chased after normally, just a nice to have

[livid sonnet]

Does upgrading from ang1 to 2 sacrifices the anguished gear v:?

[languid adder]

oh THATS why its so easy to GF on them

[languid adder]

My plan is helmet acc, feet ward turn and chest probably ward reg

[sinful vapor]

No it's just a requirement

[nocturne night]

Godforge is now always 1/200
It changed a while back, when orna went from v2 to v3

[sinful vapor]

Oh that's news to me

Wyrmhunt has no extra bonus then?

[livid sonnet]

Is a qatvanga 193% good to anguishforge :v?

[low valve]

190+ is plenty IMO

[wooden trail]

What??? I remember 1/400 to 1/500…..

That makes my pile of dragoncrests nice for the month of godforging…I mean wyrm slaying

[woeful raven]

The shackles are good, ang should be hard as its name.

[sinful vapor]

I don't think people mind being shackled down, just the rewards don't seem appropriate

[woeful raven]

Enabled shackles Ang should not be a fast progress & one shot everything, lower the shackles & leveling requirement will let the design of 2.0 dead early.

[sinful vapor]

Sorry I misspoke, unshackled rewards don't seem appropriate based on what others are saying

[woeful raven]

I enjoy 2.0, new design take time & grind to reach high ang, but it is a part of game, same as al progressing.

Appreciate odie for the hard work I love your new content.

[sinful vapor]

A few ideas/notes after a little more anguish experience:

We need to be able to adjust Anguish levels outside of our OT, issues arise without this ability.

• If I want to drop raids at someone's wv, I may be too high in Agony for that person to be able to fight the raids. I'd have to remember to change my level before teleporting over, or be stuck with a cooldown and/or too high leveled raids to be of use.
• If I happened to set my anguish level down at some point and teleport over to someone else's OT to raid with them, I may be too low level to join their raids and be stuck with a wayvessel cd.

I mentioned this during beta, but a visual identifier for anguish raids in the overworld would be excellent and very useful - especially if it included the anguish level of each raid. A tiny pink bubble with a number above the sprite would be awesome.

Made a suggestion #💡│suggestions message

[livid sonnet]

Shackled version could give a max of x2 drops
So 40ish at lvl 5, 44 at 6 etc, of course the closer you get to intended al the smaller the x2 benefit coz thatll be the same as unshackled lol

Uhhh something like
18+lvl*2(max 0.95)

[atomic ermine]

The shackles were postponed or I'm just too blind to find it ?

[umbral blaze]

Need anguish level 5 minimum before that option appears

[atomic ermine]

Could have been nice to have the option grayed with "unlock at lvl 5" mention.

[naive lynx]

Was it changed that we cant do raids in a party at different Ang levels? Thought it was supposed to take the party's highest but tried last night and my party member couldn't join because they weren't on the same level

[nocturne night]

That was changed fairly early in the beta

Being able to skip anguish levels was never a good idea

[umbral blaze]

Have monster aspects been added to ang 2.0 shop yet? And also, what's the cost of the great anguish raid scrolls in 2.0?

[naive lynx]

Gotcha

Never noticed, this counts for hordes etc too right?

[nocturne night]

Dungeons takes lowest ang level of party member

¨Raids are different because their level is set on spawn

And you are not allowed to change their level

[naive lynx]

I knew that on raids, but was curious on others. Thank you!

[granite cove]

Is this possibly a bug? The adorns are combining with the stats to then have anguish applied to it

This will affect Bristles and Pinions by a lot

[steep jetty]

its intended as far as we're aware

[timber furnace]

Great for -Def, bad for Att

[granite cove]

Ok guess I won't file a bug report but ooof

[languid adder]

May i ask where you are in progression rn

[languid adder]

Make raids adapt to the anguish level of the user who enters the raid for the very first time.
Dont make our raidpiles useless? :(

[grave fulcrum]

Don't drop an extreme amount of raids unless you intend to farm that at that lvl?

[languid adder]

What with the raids that we already spawned before? Most people have a big hundreds of hundreds of raids, because noone envisioned something like this. And all those raids cant be used now, even tho most of them havent even been touched.
I dont understand the logic behind this design, except punishment

I spawned a lotta amorris and other things before the beta went live. I was hyped for the update.
Gotta get fucked somehow i assume x3

[grave fulcrum]

All the raids spawned before give an extreme disadvantage for anyone who actively clears what they drop regardless of the Al. this also balances players abusing raids that are pointless to kill for most and makes everyone summon new raids let's be honest we both know that there are people with 1000 scrolls dropped and not killed from several different events and there are some with alts that have just as many scrolls dropped would it be fair for say someone with more alts to go in and power through double your raids because they match the anguish lvl apon entering eg you entering with a high anguish than your alt making the raid more profitable for you and giving you the ability to endlessly farm scrolls that you didn't drop at any anguish level. Anyways raids spawned previously shouldn't be able to have anguish and never should be allowed to get anguish as it makes alting to powerful and ruins the game for lots of players

[thin storm]

Does anyone know how to use Anguished Crucible? I'm trying to use it on my Nothrrn Crown 👀

[umbral blaze]

Gear needs to have at least one anguish level, crucible gives/rerolls the passive effect for the gear. This passive only works in anguished content

[thin storm]

My ONC is anguished 2, but not sure how to use the crucible

[timber furnace]

Eh, exit the game an re-enter?

That works for me

[umbral blaze]

Also, some passives (maybe all) are bugged and don't work right now

[thin storm]

That worked

[thin storm]

Should I hold until it's fixed?

Didn't know they were bugged

[umbral blaze]

I mean, they'll just start working after the fix. Idk if there's any reason to hold if you've bought crucibles and want some specific passive

[grave fulcrum]

Possibly wait because of the idea that HOA memory hunt seeds being screwed up 2 separate times can happen with anguished

[thin storm]

Yep, holding for now lol 🙈

[upbeat latch]

The upgrade cost is the biggest turn-off for me

[languid adder]

I dont really know of i agree, but i guess thats a viable perspective i can understand.

[granite cove]

There are folks with way more than 1000 raids dropped before anguish, it would be nice though if raids dropped now had a chance to be turned to anguish if you forgot to turn it on for instance

Imagine this person having all these raids anguish?

[grave fulcrum]

So something like adding a summoned date which allows you to tweak the anguish before entering if summoned after you unlocked that specific level?

[granite cove]

Yeah like I threw down 30 Hyperion today and realized I had turned off anguish for some reason

so now that's 30 new raids that can't be anguished

[dim jacinth]

Well the problem for me is that I'm being punished for having spawned my raids whereas someone with thousands of (event) raids in their inventory is fine.

[granite cove]

Do you think it fair the person above gets anguish 1 for all those raids? They have event and everything in there

I agree it's not perfect maybe have a date on the scrolls too?

So if you have scrolls older than 2.0 date they can't be anguished

[dim jacinth]

Yeah, ever since i first asked odie if there were plans to making anguished raiding rewarding i kept on stockpiling raids

for me this is rather a discussion for proofs/leveling my agony guild then anguished items btw

so event encounter don't really matter

[short osprey]

That wouldn't work as I had 1 Hyperion scroll in my inv from last year so now the ~45 scrolls I just made have "2024" in the date

[granite cove]

I get it, that's what I am talking about you can have thousands of proofs available on day one

[granite cove]

Think that's just a display bug though?

You still have to kill all the raids

and I would have loved my hoard of morrigan to be anguish, when I found out they didn't carry over I have been cleaning them up though

so I would be punished for being active to make room for the new stuff

[languid adder]

General sentiment rn from a lot of veteran players is beeing punished for beeing a veteran player in so many aspects looking at anguish 2.0, yeah...

[grave fulcrum]

I purely think just have a date summoned on the raid and allow anguish to be changed until damage is done on the raid

[grave fulcrum]

No there's plenty of veterans who actually clean up all of their raids and aren't being punished for dropping scrolls prematurely

[languid adder]

Prematurely...?
As if we knew 2 years ago anguish 2 was coming.

[grave fulcrum]

Clean your raids up

And weve know anguish 2.0 was coming for like 2 years

[granite cove]

We knew for about a year now that it was def coming

We didn't know the mechanics of it

[languid adder]

Are you hear to discuss about anguish or are you here to make otherd grrl bad?

[granite cove]

Raid decision was still at least 4-5 months ago though

[grave fulcrum]

We didn't know anything but that it would 100% include raid content

[dim jacinth]

but we didn't know wether or not saving them for the rework was good or not

[languid adder]

Was it annouced somewhere? Or written somewhere hidden in one of the hundreds of threads on this server nobody would ever assume anguish 2.0 got even mentioned in there?

[granite cove]

We did at least 5 months ago or so

People asked, its on several discords

[grave fulcrum]

I think because of the alt problem it was likely assumed that you wouldn't be able to

I remember having a conversation with one of my buddies who's got 10+ t10 accounts

And we thought it would be cool if they did but then mentioned that it's probably one of those things that would become an issue

[languid adder]

I kinda wish there was a way for someone who isnt active multiple hours on orna discords a day to know those things
Maybe there is?

[granite cove]

I mean... you seem more active than I 😄

[grave fulcrum]

You only have to check orna 1-2 times a week to know in advance

The discord

[languid adder]

Only lately, because current anguish state is miserable
Last time i was this active was when we nearly lost the tower pets cause odie wanted DC to be unique in phoenix in retrospective

[granite cove]

They could use their developer blog to talk about these things more maybe?

[languid adder]

Which i do for many years, and have the announcement channel linked on my dc's, so .. i am, still barely know most of whats going on

[grave fulcrum]

Possibly part of hype or announcements

[granite cove]

When I knew 2.0 was coming out I started asking the questions

when I found out raids was a path I asked about ones set

I started clearing my raids when open beta came out

[languid adder]

I was not sure anguish 2.0 would come even this year at that point to be fair, as there were just so much things i assumed were tackled before

[granite cove]

Honestly it had been pushed back enough that I felt the opposite, was suprised other things came before it

[grave fulcrum]

I was surprised it was even released this soon I figured it would be pushed back another quarter

[granite cove]

To me, it has been fun, and I wasn't a big 1.0 player. In fact, when it was announced that 2.0 was officially in the works, I had just hit 50 in 1.0

[grave fulcrum]

I had anguish 50

But I wasn't running it or had a way to complete it reliably

[granite cove]

I didn't feel the need to run it like I do with 2.0, even at Anguish 1, I get stuff from it. I do think there needs to be some tweaking to make me want to do World Farm stuff - maybe the upcoming rift breaks and stuff will do that, but for Raids and Dungeons, I am all in. Towers, I am ok at 1. I may strategize staying at Anguish 4 and get the tools needed to jump levels closer to my Ascension, but for now just kind of enjoying the ride and hoping that costs will settle down and there will be some type of variance for difficulty and availability.

[grave fulcrum]

Have you seen my idea for the dynamic prices based on time put into the content and resources spent

[granite cove]

Yeah not sure how they would work it 100% but its not a bad idea

[atomic ermine]

IMO raids that have been up for more than 3 months should turn public.

[grave fulcrum]

I think many would agree with the ranking for cost

[grave fulcrum]

Why so you can steal everyones raids?

Or so they can make everyone else lag to a point that their phone crashes the game for opening the game near them?

[granite cove]

Turn public and teleport to random spots in the world so you can't id people's houses

[atomic ermine]

If you didn't kill a raid in 3 months, you'll never kill it and then it overload the server forever.

[grave fulcrum]

That's a lie I have raids on orna that are more than 3 months old that I go through and kill when I want to mindlessly raid or grind a material

[atomic ermine]

Sure, make it 1 year instead.

[granite cove]

Or put a limit on max summoned raids

[atomic ermine]

But the screen Tyrm posted is just server nightmare and will hardly ever be killed

[granite cove]

Also wasn't mine to be clear 😄

[upbeat latch]

I refuse to kill all of my Cades. They've sat at my base for at least a year or two

[granite cove]

I'm starting to see the significant downside to shackles now, by the way. Medea having 600k health while you are only AL 8 is pretty oof, I can't even do VOTG right now at AL 4 without stopping to buff. I was holding off on my comment on it until I saw more people doing shackled content

[grave fulcrum]

Just dismiss them

[grave fulcrum]

I have to buff in all content at anguish 1 Al 13

[mystic rose]

Is it really bad that you need to buff for anguish content?

[granite cove]

no not at all

[atomic ermine]

Your AL gives you 1%, monster's AL give him 20%

[grave fulcrum]

No my HOA char just doesn't have the ideal setup

[granite cove]

Just saying at Anguish 4 I need to buff buff and I get to use all my AL (50)

Shackles means I can only have 8 AL and it's harder yet than 4

It's a steep cliff

[mystic rose]

Yeah, the start of ang is too rewarding imo, making the hit into shackles weird

[granite cove]

I may need to figure out some anguish leveling gear from drops to best push through

like a full set of Baldr's with anguish 4 + a good attribute and then maybe do up the weapon to anguish 4 with demon tools

Or get raid to 5 and get raid gear, not sure the strategy yet

[grave fulcrum]

Just anguish a swansong and aaru robe

[granite cove]

yeah...

just

[grave fulcrum]

Grind the tools early

[mystic rose]

Ang 5 raids should get you around 19% anguish chance, depending on your choices

[grave fulcrum]

That's partially why I'm not upgrading anguish

[mystic rose]

Im getting it higher before dropping good scrolls myself

[granite cove]

Tools don't need to be early anymore they have been adjusted

[mystic rose]

Love the tool cost adjustment, we get to play around more now

[grave fulcrum]

I need anguished gear to progress tho lol

So I'ma need tools otherwise my damage gonna go from 2 shotting anything with more than 100k hp to 3-4 shotting it and not having enough ward/HP for it

[granite cove]

TBF, I really would focus on getting to AL 50+ more than trying to level up anguish, but that's just personal preference, thinking that Anguish is the endgame

I'd still run it of course, just low level

[grave fulcrum]

I Wana kinda scale my anguish and als so that I don't have to deal with unshackled

This would be my idea way to enter the endgame lmfao

[granite cove]

To each their own of course

[sinful vapor]

• Make levels 1-4 cheaper to progress and less rewarding. These are introductory levels and set up the baseline for anguish.
• Anguish 5 introduces shackles and steps up the cost and rewards

[granite cove]

I think there needs to be a rebalance - feels bad that 5 is AL 8. If you had all anguish 5 gear and AL 8 you are only getting 23% stats boost vs stuff that is now at 100%

[mystic rose]

Agreed

[oak copper]

Goal is to make sure spelunking spec can be used by 3 players only ?

Why change Conq spec level which was much easier to get than Spelunking one ?

[livid sonnet]

How to know if the anguish bonus is good or not btw?

[languid adder]

Can you link that? I would be interested

[grave fulcrum]

so im thinking lowest to highest being
1 raiding 10 proofs for lvl 1-2
2 world farming 35 proofs lvl 1-2
3 towers 60 proofs lvl 1-2
4 dungeons 85 lvl 1-2

[grave fulcrum]

Resent the idea ^ and this is just a concept open to change

[languid adder]

I see your point. All of them having the same cost when sone are good speed (you can go to ang 2 in towers in an hour with good rng) and world farming makes me cry

[grave fulcrum]

Ive done minimal testing but I believe that these would be better starting prices and ranked them in the amount of time it takes a low Al players to grind that content

And we can always change costs to better reflect what nf wants. While still giving a time to proof representation

[languid adder]

The problem i moszly see is that prices are already very high for the first few levels, while its supposed to get slower and slower regardless.
When you hit 5, your speed gets reduced by such an amount that it will take multitudes of what you did for 4, and at that point, you realise that you will take hundreds of hours to progress a level at some point.

[atomic ermine]

Without any differences in proof prices, having 4 different proofs brings nothing to the table (beside having to raid to level up raids)

[grave fulcrum]

Id agree I'd like to see something like the ranks I gave be a base XYZ price for items too

[languid adder]

The scaling is just insane right now, and definitely needs an adjustment.
Just thinking about how much hours of shackled nightmare i have to endure until i reach something according to my power... Its probably the most uninteresting content to the already very strong veteran players in its current state, its insane.

And ironic, knowing it was designed to give them something to do, and was fun
But while anguish 1 had a point, anguish 2 is actual anguish, and not fun, in its current state

[grave fulcrum]

Like old anguish was tier of mat x quality of mat x number of mat

So t1 10 normal quality mats were 1 proof

And ortanite was closer to a 1-1 cost

Maybe make the raiding proof the same

But make dungeons around 4 times or 5 times

[languid adder]

Even more reducing rewards?

:o

[grave fulcrum]

Kinda like comparing anguished guild and titans guild cost for same material

Not reducing rewards but making it so that you can't pwrma farm one and get more out of less time spent

To me that makes anguish content more anguish

[languid adder]

Ah you mean normalize between

Yeah that i agree to, i will mever farmr raids for proofs, its absolutely not worth it rn :o

[grave fulcrum]

Yah so that no matter how much time you spend playing at the end of the day you get what you get by farming any content and it's all relative to time spent doing so 2 hrs play is 2 hrs play if you're at Ang 1 in all of them you profit the same as you would in 1hr between the 4. if you have all anguish 8 after 1 hr in each content type you get the same between those 4 hrs

[grave fulcrum]

It is if you do new raids because currently you're guaranteed 1 at the end of every raid and possibly more for the rewards screen with the raids goodie

I think anguish 1 takes 55 raids min 110 max with current pricing

If anyone can weigh in on anguish 2-4 and returns that'd be great

[timber furnace]

Well, anguish is supposed to be anguish

[mystic rose]

Average 2.2 proofs in final reward screen for me at 7 ang, if you care bout that

[grave fulcrum]

Raids?

[mystic rose]

Yes

[grave fulcrum]

With that being you just finished the raid or you're getting raid rewards

[mystic rose]

Getting raid rewards. So average 3.2 per raid, with the guaranteed 1 on kill

[grave fulcrum]

Perfect and highest gained and lowest gained on this?

[mystic rose]

Lowest 0, highest 5

[next sparrow]

Joe Six Pack here, early 60s AL in almost 6 years of play. Don’t play too much and never engage with online communities, but I feel I have to share how this change went for me. More often than not I’d get a tough material requirement and my only chance to make it happen within weeks or maybe a month was the old anguish. Suddenly the old anguish felt busted, my pet was missing every other hit so out of desperation I switched to anguish 2.0. Now, given the amount of proofs I get, it feels like anguish is no longer an option to fulfill AL material requirements without an amount of grinding that I can’t really afford time-wise. I see players with 1-2 years of gameplay already above the 100s in AL and say, god damn, that’s dedication. And that was with the old anguish. They already got there. For slower players like me stuck now in anguish 2.0 it feels like I missed my train to make it further, because the old way was enjoyed and abused and now my only feasible option to gather materials is gone.

[grave fulcrum]

So total of 6 proofs per raid max and total of 1 min that's not terrible

[grave fulcrum]

I understand your frustrations currently we're working on the bugs and ironing out everything still once everything is finalized we should start to see a better anguish content while still rewarding players who can't put extreme time into the game like many others have and challenging both high and low Al players all the same

[mystic rose]

I'm def not spending 1 min per raid at 7 ang. But that will vary depending on class/build

[grave fulcrum]

Nono I meant minimum and maximum

Yk min/max

[mystic rose]

Ahh, I'm dumb 😂

[grave fulcrum]

All good haha

[oak copper]

You gotta spam these 10 limited refineries every 12 hours now, but it's fine Odie will fix the rewards so you can grind an extra 6 years to get maybe 30AL

[granite cove]

Many people got over 100 without touching refineries

[oak copper]

Let's make it the normality then

[grave fulcrum]

No refineries were used way to long and unmonitored for to long this targets people auto clicking and not legitimately playing the game refineries could go away and the majority of the playerbase would be completely unphased

[timber furnace]

that's a huge lie, you just want anguish to be easier and no huge penalty for shackles, the best option he has is towers tbh, or do anguish 2.0 till it grants more proofs than anguish 1.0(lvel 21)

[granite cove]

If you can focus and do 5 towers a day it's roughly under an hour and a half of play. Throw in some dungeons and call it a day. They add up pretty quickly and then you have to wait for rotations, if set aside say 500k shards for blocked you can also start to strategize stocking up your lowest when available.

[grave fulcrum]

Bro what? I don't want it to be easier I want it to be less extremely grindy for starting points again Odie is ironing things out and working through feedback if appreciate it if you don't have anything constructive to the conversation you don't jump in and call people liars thanks best of luck to ya

[languid adder]

Oh refineries were very well monitored and the issues were portrayed very clearly. Especially when the grand market poppep up, people started saying that something had to be done. It just took a few years until action was taken.

[exotic jasper]

I think many players pointed out already, but anguish feels very grindy. For newer players that start with anguish at T8 it might be somewhat reasonable. For players already too strong - it takes alot of time to get to the point where difficulty is high enough for a challenge.

My proposal would be to reduce amount of proofs needed for lvl up AND / OR reward extra proofs for successfully completing an anguished activity.

Proofs of Torment in Monuments

And Monuments rn are a very bad way to receive proofs of Torment (at least for me). Its on avg under 10 proofs per Monument. Maybe make any enemy in Monument eligible to drop proof of Torment, but with a reduced chance?

Too many enemies lower tier in monuments

[languid adder]

And in Towers too, because the fights are chosen, you dont decide, like in dungeons where you set the tier and could abuse the system by just spamming T1.

[grave fulcrum]

Personally I disagree with this one due to monument being a lesser version of towers therefore making it appropriate an amount of proofs for time and energy spent

[grave fulcrum]

You can't abuse dungeons for proofs of melechaly those afaik only drop from same tier enemies as did towers I think they're perfect as they are as changing these to give more would make it more worth to run towers not for shards but for anguish proofs and invalidating the reason people run towers by making them too powerful

[winter knoll]

My goodness, the grind for anguish level is insane

It take so long to even grind out lvl 1 to 2

[upbeat latch]

Agreed. Horde boss runs weren't producing much

I'll probabaly stick at level 1 and passively collect them until NF reduces the cost

[grave fulcrum]

this is what im doing after its been about a week or 2 of odie not updating and altering anguish and hes finished ironing it out ill be working up tiers i try to dedicate about an hr or so for towers and raids per day and then run dungeons whenever im capable

i very rarely world farm currently

this gives me atleast progress for anguished content and once everythings all finished ill beable to bounce ahead

[woeful raven]

Ang2.0 should not be a speedrun content for us, lower the cost - end game player will rush everything in few month & the new content dead again.

As dev mention it will be hard as the guild name, we should treat ang level like rising our ascension level.

[grave fulcrum]

2.0 should start off easier and work to a point where its more difficult currently anguish is pushing limits for what an al 13 can handle with mid tier gear at lvl 1 i agree it should be difficult but i think players who enjoy difficult content will still have that when they get to higher anguish. i think speed running it isnt the same as early content being easier to progress making higher anguish more worth grinding as it currently stands the effort put into grinding anguish to get up each level is not worth the reward which pushes players away and will cause a dip in players make it as rewarding as it is difficult and players stick around because they get feel good feelings for the applying themselves

[raven bane]

How could the new content be dead if its infinite scaling?

[bronze plinth]

Like the point is to make your game harder? Why would i want to run easy mode for months ?

[fierce cedar]

after you hit lvl 5 there's shackles

[bronze plinth]

The content will be dead if it does not become rewarding compared to time spent

[fierce cedar]

but im tickled that 1 week per lvl is too slow

[bronze plinth]

Even more ^

100 raids for 1 lvl

There is no way that is worth it

I would save my scrolls for event rather than drop them for proofs

I dont mind the shakles. But the cost for lvl ups is mad

[fierce cedar]

its been 1 week since the patch tho. i didnt get it til thurs evening

how could they even have data to fix the rates? idk what else to say

[fierce cedar]

I think the train you missed was dozens and dozens of refineries. But as for power in-game, at 60 AL you probably dont run into anything you can't do

(unless you live in los angeles, then ya, setting conquerer rewards is out)

[bronze plinth]

Like 3 proofs from a raid

Sometimes even 0

Like i would like to level agony for more challenge in raids, but the amount of proofs i need to get just to add few levels is not worth it

I kinda regret switching to ang 2.0 atm

Ang 1.0 i had some use and felt rewarding

Like i have gob fort in my ot atm and it pains me that its not rewarding anymore bc its painfully slow to level melancholy aswell( even if its the easiest one)

[woeful raven]

Its being fair if the reward didnt worth with unshackles.

There is no easy mode if you enabled shackles, want more reward - enabled shackles & challenge, thats how 2.0 design.

I love 2.0 too, hope everyone enjoy it