3.17 Heretic Corvus changes

[wind barn]

Is this thing on? 🎤

Summary of what I've seen:

• Corvus lacks survivability. We traded mystic feather for Efficacious, which is nice but even less survivability
• Some regret losing MF and want it back
• Some would like to add a second chance effect now that MF is gone (bloodflask break?)
• A popular idea seems to be trading Flasks of Corvus (+30% flask charge) for MF or more survivability, but charge rate is useful for endless
• Another idea is to add spellcasting dodge chance to "corvus efficacious", likely replacing the damage reduction

A few other notes of my own:

• Efficacious and MF have some synergy by virtue of reducing incoming damage, leading to higher chance of enabling MF
• There is some inherent tension between Efficacious and Critical Poise as you would not be critting during spellcasting turns
• The new "additional damage to weakness" aspect of efficacious doesn't really fit Corvus IMO

[rapid snow]

RE: evasion when casting multi-turn spells - I think that'd be a straight downgrade from base

and it doesn't solve turn 1 survivability issues at all

*in PvP defense

[dusk mountain]

@median pond @fallen cedar @rugged horizon @indigo pond and any others I've missed, the discussion continues

[urban yew]

Would the blood flask break thing be 100% chance?

[dusk mountain]

That would ultimately be up to Odie

[rapid snow]

I don't think so, nor do I think it should be

not even BeoH's is 100%

[wind barn]

Higher chance with higher flask charge probably

[rapid snow]

and we are talking about a very similar ability

[rapid snow]

this makes sense to me

[wind barn]

It sounds a little weird to me. There might be some abusable aspects, there'd have to be a cap

[rugged horizon]

I've not minded Critical Poise + MF very much. It just means I have to watch my statuses and use a Seal III spell to heal here and there.

[rapid snow]

I do think it is unlikely another passive would be added on top of what is already in there

[dusk mountain]

If it were 100, it would need to only be if a Flask were full

Problem being going first you'd always ensure a 2nd chance which is crazy powerful and doesn't help what people want i.e defense

[urban yew]

I mean it sounds fine to me, it is another reason to not just delete people with bloodray so that’s nice imo 😅

[rapid snow]

so assuming it would not and something has to be given up - I still think giving up the additional flask charge would be the least painful

[dusk mountain]

I think just tacking the 2nd chance onto Flasks of Corvus would be fine

It's a small power up to what is there without adding or subtracting anything

[wind barn]

Second chance is a small power up?

[rugged horizon]

Overall I feel like this is a very snap decision and Corvus should remain at default until a more thought-out one is ready to implement.

[wind barn]

Do your second chances grow on trees??

[dusk mountain]

Also while I think Efficacious adding dodge chance is thematic, I tend to agree it would be weird/less useful in PvP

However Corvus is definitely more PvE centric

[urban yew]

I’d personally rather guaranteed reduced damage than a chance for no damage

[rapid snow]

yes

[dusk mountain]

Yeah, that makes sense - though I'll poke and say Corvus is supposed to be a Thief-y Mage not a tanky-mage

Though I don't disagree

[wind barn]

Do you guys like the theme of mystic feather/thievery, or would you rather go towards second chance? My only concern in that regard is that Corvus would become much more similar to other celestials with efficacious/second chance

[rugged horizon]

I much prefer the Thief identity associated with it.

[dusk mountain]

I think that worry ship sailed when Efficacious was added

[rapid snow]

the most distinctive aspects of each celestial class are which flasks they have access to

and now each class has one

[urban yew]

Mystic is more thief-y, but mystic with second chance would be a problem

[wind barn]

Efficacious can be removed 🤔

[rapid snow]

yeah, I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen. But no one is suggesting that.

[dusk mountain]

If the idea of Mystic Feather is to avoid death, I don't think there's anything wrong with a Bloodflask that a mage perfected to help avoid death

And no that absolutely could not be paired with Mystic Feather 😅

I find it more than a little unlikely we would give Efficacious back and get Mystic Feather back

Asking for Feather back needs to have an all round consensus IMO

Or we need to work with the framework that is there

[wind barn]

I think this is overall likely if we asked

[rapid snow]

I'd miss Efficacious, but if it will be given back then now is the time

[wind barn]

So getting both at the same time was on the table for sure

[rapid snow]

Once people get used to having an option, it is always painful to take it back for some subset of the player base

and I am ok with not counting my chickens before they hatch

[dusk mountain]

Again- Framework:

I.E:
-Add 2nd Chance to Flasks of Corvus of some value
-Remove element damage bonus of Efficacious
-maybe tweak immunities but add small Buff duration while channeling to help bridge to Crit Poise
-maybe change damage res to some kind of dodge? And I emphasize maybe on that last one because it is weaker but also if we are needing to give something up 🤷‍♂️

Or

We throw away efficacious (don't see that happening) and try and push for Mana Feather?

[sick radish]

This type of contradiction makes it really hard for ORN to gather feedback and Devs to make change. We cant dwell on heretic every day for the next year.

Hopefully Odie is still willing to listen. You can tell hes slammed with updates and trying to keep everyone happy, but stuff like this has to be a drag for him. Just keep that in mind!

[rapid snow]

That is a very fair point S2iVi

I wanted to say people were against MF, but couldn't remember who so it felt not worth bringing up

[wind barn]

That post is still mostly true, and I didn't have the context of ang2.0 back then. I'm also not advocating for MF to come back - I'm just stating it's a possibility

MF has added value in ang 2.0

[dusk mountain]

People definitely were. I've seen many ask about why it felt so janky

[sick radish]

I do appreciate the passion for the classline though and do want to see it succeed. Wasnt meant to be a callout, just trying to prove a point here

[rapid snow]

As a counterpoint @sick radish , that post was made when Efficacious did not have a damage reduction element to it

[dusk mountain]

There's a reason Mana Feather was thrown around frequently as a request

[wind barn]

I just don't think that's balanced

[indigo pond]

I can only see mana feather happening if it's a reduced miss chance compared to mystic feather

[dusk mountain]

It would need to come at the cost of Bloodloss Flask as well more than likely

But I don't think it was on the table

[sick radish]

Fair. Just trying to help you guys out. Be concise and consolidated!

[dusk mountain]

So again

[rapid snow]

So now efficacious is mostly being evaluated for its defensive value because in anguish, bypassing elemental immunity has nearly no value

[dusk mountain]

Framework 😀

[sick radish]

I remember that too - there were quite a few comments to remove MF

So now its gone but we want it back

Its just too much 😂

Anyways carry on🍻

[indigo pond]

That's probably because people are feeling the burn of nearly no survival mechanisms

[wind barn]

I think MF being removed was always in the context of replacing it with something defensive

[fallen cedar]

I remember people wanting MF gone. I was one of the few that didn’t.

[rapid snow]

I agree completely actually. But I am pointing out that:
a) Things have changed a lot with this patch
b) Efficacious as a passive changed along the way

[wind barn]

Nobody said "just delete MF and we'l be happy"

[stray island]

MF feels janky to use, but it is really useful at least imo

it is really useful for corvus raiding especially for killing A morrigan in 1 battle

[fallen cedar]

Yeah. And instead add efficacious. Which wasn’t really “needed” in the first place. I never understood needing it in the first place.

I think this rendition of Corvus is worse

[dusk mountain]

Sure but you can do that stacking Buffs on Crit Poise too and just tank er

Okay so if we were to target Efficacious - does it need a Corvus specific version?

[rapid snow]

Let's focus on current context. Saying stuff like 'never understood' and the like will lead us to it seeming like there are contradictions.

[fallen cedar]

I would’ve preferred to see it remain the same and instead focus on crit poise, which does give a lot of flavor

There are lol

[stray island]

both? it takes some time to set up low hp and Crit poise is great for maintaining DC

[fallen cedar]

But it’s between people. Some heretics talked too loud about MF and I don’t see them here (can’t remember who it was either)

[dusk mountain]

I think it was more about talking loudly about Efficacious. To be fair, there were quite a few votes for Efficacious of some kind on Corvus even if I interpreted that as people wanting more power for Corvus more than Efficacious specifically

[indigo pond]

Btw why do you guys think corvus needs further changes? Is it a problem with survivability or class identity? Or both?

[fallen cedar]

Yeah. That’s fair. True

[fallen cedar]

I thought it was fine as it was. At most have a look into crit poise.

[rapid snow]

For my single vote: I don't think changes are needed. I really liked what was done with this patch.

[fallen cedar]

Have y’all been using blood ray? It is absolutely insane

[rapid snow]

Of course!

[dusk mountain]

Class Identity in my eyes

Corvus is sort of stuck playing Double Fiddle

It's both the endless class and the somewhat defensive class though lacking in the survival thing there for those that want it for defense

[fallen cedar]

Yes sirrrr. Agree

[dusk mountain]

I thought it was a little rough around the edges prior to this and I don't see MF -> Efficacious as doing anything to smooth those edges 😅

I'm totally fine with MF being gone if we could smooth those edges out

[indigo pond]

Personally I also think corvus could use a few tweaks. Flasks of corvus has exactly 0 impact on anything corvus does

[dusk mountain]

Saying Corvus was/is bad though is not correct

[wind barn]

Endless is the only thing I guess

I only use bloodray when it's necessary in endless, usually have enough. Then again I've been doing this

[fallen cedar]

Y’all know I’ve been using Corvus to win against Al 180+?

[indigo pond]

The bloodflask inventory is essential lol

[indigo pond]

There's a few things I could think of but I'll let you make your point 🤣

[wind barn]

I don't think Corvus is bad. I think there's some wasted potential/inherent tensions

[indigo pond]

Agreed

[fallen cedar]

Wym?

[wind barn]

In live: MF is not enabled by anything. Crit poise maintains negative debuffs, bad for endless in particular

[rapid snow]

MF with Steadfast 1 and Crit Poise with using Seals (common endless tactic where HCorvus currently shines) or Life Siphon (from Ashen rubies)

[median pond]

Because mystic feather kept their ss from hitting 😆

[indigo pond]

Crit poise is actually one of the new positives corvus has imo

[fallen cedar]

I stand by what I said. lol. But no. Cause blood ray don’t care about AL

[wind barn]

Well it helps in endless don't get me wrong, and I love the concept; but there's tension bc it can be such a double-edged sword

[median pond]

Honestly, to keep it simple just give us MF back with efficacious. They can synergize and make mf more useful. Especially with the SS changes. I ran some tests between two mirrors and ss did take a massive hit in pvp which is nice. Corvus has 6 passives while ara and base have 7. Odie didnt want us having survivability apparently and mystic feather probably gives us the least while still being useful in content

[indigo pond]

Oh I see. Yeah I don't see any reason as to why crit poise should keep debuffs up as well

[fallen cedar]

Idc about the negative statuses. Wisp heal is there. At the most it is just an inconvenience. It does not need a fix

[dusk mountain]

So like...

Yeah, it can be

But there's no perfect PvP defense and I'd rather be able to fire crits all day while a pet Buffs me to infinity than try and maximize Buff uptime

My favorite pets have Cleanse 🤷‍♂️

Crit Poise in PvP is far more interesting to me than Staying Power

[median pond]

Helping against fixed miss spells is huge especially when we can use DB or other 2 turn spells to try to force someone to put us into mf range. Status damage can get insanely high in PvP so it works against crit poise. Choose your path 🤷‍♂️

[sick radish]

Having mystic feather without high tenacity is really the only issue I saw

[wind barn]

You're gonna wisp's heal in endless/pvp?

[sick radish]

Just my 2 cents

[fallen cedar]

I also believe odie did the right thing exchanging them. I don’t think we should get both

[dusk mountain]

But getting that unconditionally would be a big no no

[wind barn]

Again, Odie didn't choose

[dusk mountain]

Especially for you poor Realms

[indigo pond]

That's why there was buzz around mana feather being a thing

[fallen cedar]

I do. Or a panacea. I had mystic feather. It was safe lol

[rugged horizon]

No idea how, I can't stack high enough to survive a hit to reduce my HP enough to activate it :O

[fallen cedar]

Not anymore lol

[median pond]

You can with the current ss changes

[wind barn]

How do you have MF with a panacea?

[sick radish]

I dont feel any ownership of high tenacity as a realm. Anyone with MF at t10 should have it for it to be useable. It also is still way more useful on realm with redline over blueline anyways

[fallen cedar]

You can’t. He’s tripping. Al 178 things 😂

[sick radish]

Thought it was cool a non realm got MF

[median pond]

Play the beta and test it yourself dude

You absolutely can

Especially with efficacious on corvus

[rapid snow]

Ectoplasm! And a pet with cleanse as stated above

Verified doable at AL 81

[wind barn]

There has never been a point with both efficacious and MF

[fallen cedar]

Ok. I guess we just disagree. I will 100% panacea in endless against a weak mob

[median pond]

You're not testing the beta so your input on current changed are going to be irrelevant

[wind barn]

That's fine I'm just confused by what you are stating. Panacea = hp gain = no MF

[median pond]

Want to fight me on the beta? Ill show you otherwise lol. I just ran several tests against my 111 AL gilga

[wind barn]

Corvus does not have effiacious and MF currently, or ever

[median pond]

I know. But efficacious can put you in MF range now

You're missing the point

[fallen cedar]

I also said wisp heal. No need to nitpick. In the end, negative statuses have never ended a run for me.

[median pond]

SS is not good against my tank build at all. I hit 10k on heretic lmfao

[wind barn]

Sure. Guess we just got confused by the context of "dodging ss with MF"

[median pond]

Against my heretic*

[rugged horizon]

At least not on live in settlement fights. It's the difference between tanking 450k and 225k hits (x

[wind barn]

Agreed, it's an inconvenience but a real tension

[median pond]

Mystic feather does dodge ss, chakram, rs2 if you are in mf range knight already confirmed that

[sick radish]

Hey heretic fam focus -
you guys should gather input on what you want to change, consolidate it and get most people on board, then have ORN submit the list to NF!

[rapid snow]

that's what we are doing here XD

trying to find consensus

[wind barn]

Well let's leave the rabbit trails

[sick radish]

If you were to construct the perfect list of passives for Corvus, what would that list look like? Discuss

[rapid snow]

are you saying this is not the right place?

[dusk mountain]

@bitter sierra you guys have a Heretic over here!

[indigo pond]

We're basically killing off arguments till only a few generally agreed upon ones stand lol

[bitter sierra]

High tenacity is basically Realmshifter's entire identity, more than Avidity lol

[dusk mountain]

This

[rugged horizon]

My current stance is leave Corvus be until this enormous, complicated update NF is doing is out of the way. (This change came out of nowhere and isn't yet warranted, in my opinion.) If we don't, we're likely to get a snap change that isn't well thought out or balanced because studio attention is mostly not here. However, if it must be done, so be it.

[fallen cedar]

It was fine before imo. At most add 2% crit chance to horvus. But I think it’s decent the way it was.

[indigo pond]

Efficacious 2
Steadfast 1
Flasks of Corvus
Mystic Feather

[fallen cedar]

Hell no. That’s a big mistake

[wind barn]

Current abilities

[indigo pond]

What part of it is a big mistake?

[fallen cedar]

Eliminating flasks of Corvus

[indigo pond]

Personally I've never gotten any tangible use out of it

[wind barn]

Is iconoclast ever getting removed? I assume not so we can just ignore that

[fallen cedar]

You should try

[rugged horizon]

Removing Iconoclast and any sort of effect on positive statuses.

[fallen cedar]

Think of it this way…

Look at the new gear. That charge speed will go up. It makes sequencer be able to use flasks

[rapid snow]

Please don't remove iconoclast hahaha

[indigo pond]

Ah I should have added those as well. I only mentioned which of the current contested passives corvus should keep. If it isn't on the list I think it's fine

[rugged horizon]

Ah, okay!

[median pond]

Im going to come back to 1k messages in this thread 😆. Leave corvus as is but keep celestial arrow non elemental plz.

[wind barn]

Vote on two of these to DELETE
1️⃣Efficacious
2️⃣Steadfast 1
3️⃣Flasks of Corvus
4️⃣Critical Poise
5️⃣Mystic Feather
6️⃣Second Chance effect

[rapid snow]

I'm another vote for leave it as it currently is

[fallen cedar]

What is this? Keep or eliminate?

ORN. This one was a fumble 😬😂

[rapid snow]

None and invalid question must be choices

to make the poll a valid ORN poll

[fallen cedar]

What is second chance effect?

[dusk mountain]

Based on what we have on beta currently:
-Add some kind of second chance to Flasks of Corvus related to Bloodflasks
-Potentially at the cost of elemental weakness boost from Efficiacious
-Potentially change Efficacious to Efficacios Corvus with some changes to synergies with Crit Poise

Or

-Turn it back to no Efficacious, give back Mystic Feather but make it mana based

Or

Add High Tenacity to what is on live at the cost of something? (Don't think this is on the table lol)

[wind barn]

Theoretical second chance effect

[fallen cedar]

That’s not even in the discussion.

[wind barn]

It's been brought up a lot yea

[fallen cedar]

Oh man. My class is getting wrecked.

[dusk mountain]

He's referring to the bloodflask breaking thing

[wind barn]

I'm literally just trying to get a consensus

[fallen cedar]

Nah. Idc about that. I proposed that. But the real solution is revert the change

[wind barn]

Then vote accordingly on my post, why are you being defeatist

[dusk mountain]

Keeping it simpler

-Revert to Live +/- something

Or

-Add bloodflask breaking to what is on beta -elemental weakness boost

[indigo pond]

The latter sounds like an efficacious 1

[fallen cedar]

Delete efficacious. Then bring it up in 3 months. There are much more important stuff I want Odie paying attention to

[wind barn]

Odie is already paying attention to this right now

Idk why but he is

[dusk mountain]

Urm. Because people keep circling around HCorvus everywhere?

[fallen cedar]

He shouldn’t. We’re in a good spot. The problems in the game are not related to any of this.

[wind barn]

Alright you go tell Odie "please stop working on this"

We'll keep figuring out what the consensus is I guess

[fallen cedar]

Idk. I’ll remove myself from this one. It’s a waste of time. I’ve been staying away from heretic convos for a while now. I think he nailed the patch.

@mystic otter don’t change heretic. Don’t listen to them. They haven’t learned to use it. Let’s revisit the topic in October and see if they like it then. You nailed the patch

There

[wind barn]

Just to be clear, which patch are you referring to - current live?

[rugged horizon]

We can go tell Odie "Please table this for now"

HCorvus is fine right now. Anything can be improved, but I don't think this is it.

[fallen cedar]

Identity

Was a great success

[wind barn]

Ok so revert beta changes is your vote

[fallen cedar]

Yeah. I already voted against efficacious

[wind barn]

You'd also wanna vote on theoretical second chance effect but it doesn't matter, nobody else is voting

[severe vale]

Any chance this page is in a public spreadsheet? would love to copy it to my personal one!

[fallen cedar]

No. Idc about that. I only suggested it because we lost our only defensive mechanic on that class. MF was fine.

[rapid snow]

efficacious is a defensive ability. That feels disingenous (even though I agree that either this version or the previous one are good)

[rugged horizon]

I may have the incorrect opinion here, but I quite liked having Mystic Feather + regaining health without losing stat passives.

[wind barn]

Not 100% sure, was posted in the heretic rework beta thread

[fallen cedar]

Meh. That’s a stretch. It locks you too much into a single style

[wind barn]

Do you think MF on corvus is good in general, or niche spots?

[fallen cedar]

That’s what I don’t like about it seen as defensive. It has a defensive element, but not nearly enough to be considered as a sole defensive mechanic.

[dusk mountain]

Alright seems like we can start at the basics

[rugged horizon]

I think it's both. It is niche, but it can be good and makes the playstyle more versatile, less mindless.

[dusk mountain]

Poll incoming

[wind barn]

@fallen cedar are you just against having both MF and efficacious?

You don't wanna give up flasks of corvus?

[fallen cedar]

Yes. I don’t think we can spare a passive in exchange for it. If we get it added, I’ll be fine with it. But I wouldn’t give anything up for it because we have it in 2 classes

[sick radish]

Flasks of corvus is great i cant imagine wanting to get rid of that

[fallen cedar]

It’s redundant

[fallen cedar]

Thank you. That is the comment that makes me wanna delete myself from this convo. 😫

[rapid snow]

I was with you initially MW, but with that attitude I think it is probably for the best if you do leave

[sick radish]

The way corvus is in live is actually pretty sick

[dusk mountain]

I'm also not wanting to see that removed

[sick radish]

MW is a passionate long time heretic that is just tired of the push pull and bad changes I think

[fallen cedar]

Lol. Actually I will. No problems there.

[sick radish]

I feel his pain from when the deity changes were going around

[fallen cedar]

Correct. It’s just complaining at this point. Obviously me and poet agree on a lot. Lot of respect to him. But I won’t front. I said what I needed to say and there’s really nothing else to add

[rapid snow]

I don't think there's any ill will. But there needs to be willingness to consider options that we don't like to reach a consensus.
It's ok to not currently be in the mindset for it, but it does need to happen here.

And, again, I say this having agreed with pretty much everything MW has said

[fallen cedar]

Yes sir. Y’all deal with this. Don’t break my class. My vote is revert it and leave it like it was. Exchanging anything for efficacious is a mistake.

[wind barn]

Hey if there's a sentiment that flasks of corvus is useful there's no reason to remove it. It was suggested just because some people don't see it as useful

We are all just discussing options

[dusk mountain]

#1370478253873303653 message have at it. Let's start at the basics

[sick radish]

VOTE

[wind barn]

I actually don't have a preference

I could go either way lol. I don't think they're mutually exclusive

[fallen cedar]

😩

Bruv

[wind barn]

I've already talked about this...

[urban yew]

Honest question, how is mystic feather useless?

Like I’m not trying to be snarky or anything

[wind barn]

#1372959437483933917 message
#1372959437483933917 message

[fallen cedar]

Sorry man. Just got a couple gray hairs here lol

[wind barn]

I never wanted MF->Efficacious, I wanted a real defensive ability

I even made suggestions that corvus should get a new ability that synergizes with MF instead

[sick radish]

Vote!

[dusk mountain]

If there's a solid consensus as a starting point, it's easier to suggest small changes from there

[fallen cedar]

That manaseep suggestion though. That’s a good one

[wind barn]

Fwiw I hadn't played much with corvus before recently. Corvus doesn't have anything that synergizes with MF; in pvp it's a matter of how hard your opponent hits you, in pve you have more control. And now I have a little more experience with it and with anguish, there is definitely value in pve. I just want more synergy

[fallen cedar]

The one about turning it off

[dusk mountain]

Has been brought up

[fallen cedar]

Yeah. That one is nice nice

[wind barn]

It used to work that way

When it was manadrain

Do y'all think crit poise needs a buff

[fallen cedar]

Not exactly. I do think that it’s the only one that could be modified. That has some room to play around with.

But “needing” is a big word to me

Reason why I think it “can” be modified is the lack of dex with heretic. Reason why I think is it doesn’t “need” it is we just got the best dex gear in the game. Soooo probably that’s gonna fix itself

[sick radish]

I understand the sentiment but ive learned to accept that a perfect rework to me may not be what everyone else wants. As long as its a good rework, that should be a success. NF only has so much bandwidth to operate, wouldnt you want to see them move on to something like a kingdom rework, titan augment rework, or full balance patch?

Let alone just ang 2.0 launching. This is stalling some big updates

[versed parcel]

Being a thiefy mage is a bit weird that corvus has the exact same efficacious as the other heretics for me. Id expect it to have some sort of bonus to either physical and unelemental Magic or just the "weapon spells" (celestial arrow, Magic dagger/hammer/etc, Magic strikes, maybe shadowed elem strikes)
It doesnt necessarily help its ncurrent state, its just more of an identity thing

[dusk mountain]

#1370478253873303653 message

Vote!

[sick radish]

Vote!

[fallen cedar]

Vote

[dusk mountain]

etov

[median pond]

I'm all for not giving up a passive and keeping efficacious (I could do without efficacious though). I'm a little surprised you're not more inclined to that from a defensive standpoint. It would definitely help defensively with the current changes in beta and ppl not 1 banging with ss constantly. That allows a lot of build creativity in the pvp world having both. 40% reduced incoming damage while casting a multi turn spell can help tremendously to make mystic feather be more useful than it is now. I haven't read beyond this, I won't be able to keep up much with how fast this thread is going, and I would have been OK with corvus as is since celestial arrow was changed

Getting into mf range to offset flat miss chances is huge

[fallen cedar]

I haven’t played beta though. That’s the issue. So I don’t know how different it is in beta or why. I haven’t seen any changes to it.

But the reason why I’m against it, is it would lock me into a multi turn build constantly. And I don’t like those type of restrictions

[median pond]

Not constantly. Just DB 🤷🏻‍♂️ lol. You build around the ai well so it doesn't spam the same thing. At least in the past you did so I assume you still do

[rich scroll]

I was an advocate for Efficacious on Horvus because it would have given it a niche as an elemental physical striker using the Shadowed strikes from Nyx, among other things.

But that goes out the window since the skills themselves have apparently been changed to function like the Omnimancy spells normally do (ignoring immunities, etc). There are other benefits of course but that was my line of thinking as far as Efficacious being in line with the rest of the class while still giving Horvus a little something to claim as its own.

Beyond that, I do not play the class enough to have much of an opinion so I am trying to read through all of this to catch up since I've been ill and off the game the past few days.

[median pond]

Celestial arrow is also multi turn with that m1 of 5

[fallen cedar]

Exactly. You think I’d want a change like that just to use it on area defense? lol. You underestimate me

Yuck

[median pond]

You're more of a bof player now? Because yeah, you were all about territory lol

Wouldn't say that's underestimating you. It was just your primary thing

You did cheese like hell though 😆 dont forget swapping to GS to knock me off territory 🙄

[fallen cedar]

Yeah. But I never needed a change to be able to do it. (Not a dig at you btw, don’t even think it). Guess there’s an element of pride.

Except CA. I did like that one lol

[fallen cedar]

You deserved it

[median pond]

I had good builds that deterred you so it was a last resort and you still went 50 😂

It was fun though. Just wasnt worth attempting to defend when you swapped

Not bashing you or bitter about it or anything, just poking fun lol

I went cheesy ss for a while so it's not like I have room to talk lol

[dusk mountain]

Everyone has an SS phase. Gilgas just never grow out of it!

🙃 😜

[fallen cedar]

Vote

[rich scroll]

The other changes that came with this one kind of make Efficacious on Horvus pointless, at least for what I had in mind with the ability.

Strictly going by the poll, I think keeping Mystic Feather is more important here.

[rapid snow]

I think the poll shows a very clear preference. This is good.

There's the concise message to bring back to Odie, I think

|| (even though I liked having efficacious on Corvus T_T)||

[wind barn]

The question of "do we want something else changed" remains

We don't have to push for it now but it may be a fine time to test things out

[dusk mountain]

Tiny things from the baseline are easier to push for/form consensus from

Manaseep functioning like EG for summoners (remaining floor to floor for omnimancy classes only) is something Konq and I have both mentioned before for those worried it isn't being discussed here

[rapid snow]

if the driving factor for changing things was to add survivability and the people saying that MF was that for them, then I think the logical conclusion is that nothing needs changing, no?

[wind barn]

I still feel like live corvus could use more survivability

It's just MF with steadfast 1

[sick radish]

That looks a lot more survivable than realm, GS, and Beo to me

[rich scroll]

Steadfast II seems like a simple enough fix there...it mitigates the Crit Poise issue and helps with our lack of High Tenacity.

[wind barn]

Not really, heretic relies on passives to make up for the stats

Vs RS is somewhat comparable

[rapid snow]

surely not vs GS

[sick radish]

Steadfast II doesnt replace high tenacity

[sick radish]

Steadfast+ MF

Realm gets....MF

[rich scroll]

No, it doesn't. But I'm not sure that High Tenacity is on the table for us.

[sick radish]

Recharge quite literally makes MF impossible

For reference

[rich scroll]

High Tenacity, Resurgence, and Mystic Feather synergize very well. We're lacking that kind of synergy, but I was trying to keep it simple.

[sick radish]

Theres nothing to debate lol

[sick radish]

SF2 doesnt solve that unfortunately but understand the sentiment

[wind barn]

I don't play RS so I can't comment exactly, but heretic has a good chunk less dex, a lot less defense, no access to warrior gear. If we are comparing corvus to RS directly, here are the stats

[rich scroll]

SF2 just means we're less likely to be afflicted by and carry DoTs via Crit Poise. That's all I was saying there. It definitely does not compare to High Tenacity.

[wind barn]

Crit poise carrying dots vs recharge and high tenacity makes a good bit of difference

[rich scroll]

What I would really like is to bring up the past idea of filled flasks providing some kind of benefit as part of Flasks of Corvus.

But, again, I was trying to keep it simple.

[sick radish]

Can we take a step back though seriously.

hCorvus gets sweet flask usage, is the only non realm with MF, has steadfast, and fast flask charging, and crit poise with Blueline.

That really makes for a cool class. We gotta give this a rest seriously.

I can see an argument for fixing crit poise here but we gotta find a way to come to terms with something that is arguably a good rework

[plucky vector]

I been playing h corvus for like 2 years and i think mystic feather is extremely niche.

[dusk mountain]

🎵 OP Moves, Broken Stats, One-Shotting Raids, I... want my class to be the best! (At everything!)

[rapid snow]

Majority thinks differently. We've got to respect that.

[plucky vector]

In pvp is useleds bc people oneshot you, and in pve you dont have control over it

[rapid snow]

it's best if we move past that one as it is settled anyhow

And it's like not even close

90% I think?

Some crazy high majority

[wind barn]

I wouldn't say 15 votes settles it

[plucky vector]

15 votes xddddddd

[rapid snow]

well, it is the people who are here

literally people who are in this channel -2

[rich scroll]

It was asked if anything else could change and I responded.

If we're not allowed to continue discussing things then close the thread, I guess.

[rapid snow]

maybe a middle ground?

Some people said there are bigger fish to fry. I think this is true

We can keep the conversation happening outside of 3.17-based changes

[wind barn]

I wasn't expecting heretic changes in this beta

[plucky vector]

Mystic Feather has only one problem with this class: lack of control.

It's not possible to redline to get the most out of it, and everything is left to chance.

It would be nice to swap in a flask, which, like mana, reduces our health and gives us a turn.

This way, the class has control over its passives, and everything isn't left to chance.

[dusk mountain]

What about locking your health to a threshhold?

I.E can't heal above 50%?

[plucky vector]

Manaseep replaced fot i dont know bloodseep

[plucky vector]

Every way to gain some sort of control over our health is good

[rapid snow]

please don't get rid of manaseep

[plucky vector]

Or i dont know the blue flask that deals damage and no crit

[wind barn]

FYI bloodloss used to damage hp before it came to beta, but it felt bad

According to Odie

[rapid snow]

I would not trade current bloodloss for anything

[plucky vector]

Bloodloss is awesome

10/10

[rapid snow]

man, was all of that so long ago?

Feels like yesterday

it has been a crazy year

[wind barn]

Partial MF for hp and mana maybe?

Like, half of MF is from blueline, half is from redline

[plucky vector]

Avidity to heretic /s

Mf power for number of bloodflasks or something like that?

[median pond]

Idk, efficacious, MF, and crit poise all require you choose a path or give up a lot if you want to attempt to maintain them all.

But I'd give up efficacious. Way more build diversity with it if it did stay

[plucky vector]

That way you can choose gaining blueline stats, or mf with no wasting bloodflasks

[rapid snow]

It could be just me that doesn't get it, but could you rephrase that last sentence Wrecked?

[median pond]

If efficacious were to stay and we got mystic feather I can think of 5 different builds off the top of my head right now. If we have to give up one, I would give up efficacious. I would like to see both. People don't have to build into anything and they could maintain the current playstyle they have with the live version

[mystic otter]

#1370416842065313852 message

[rapid snow]

Thank you. That clears it up for me.

[distant nexus]

Someone did think it earlier but I will fully confirm - this was a very fast adjustment that happened right before all the big changes came out

[median pond]

Like Mobile feels he needs to build into a 2 turn to continue maintaining mystic feather if efficacious existed alongside it. Why? Keep playing like you're playing with mystic feather now. It just opens up a larger variety of builds 🤷‍♂️

[rapid snow]

oh, MW is Mobile Wonder? 🤯

[median pond]

Haha, yeah

[rapid snow]

My old Orna guild mates still curse his name every now and then when they lose territory hahaha

[distant nexus]

I will take part blame for this if this is a misstep, but I did want to get the opinions of the other Heretics beforehand - I guess I did kind of get that

[rapid snow]

this is definitely one of the ways to get feedback of all time

[severe vale]

Someone in the ORN chat advocate for BeoH changes next please and thanks! || /s kinda ||

[distant nexus]

I was being indecisive

[distant nexus]

granted, removing a passive from BeoH at random

[severe vale]

You could remove the 'hydrus' passive and I can say with confidence I probably wouldn't notice

[plain oar]

wait do people build around mystic feather in hcorv?

[distant nexus]

but in all seriousness, to me Heretic Corvus feels like it can be a lot of things, but only a couple at once - my mind when playing Corv almost never goes to utilizing Mystic Feather, always is happenstance when it matters

[mystic otter]

good idea, i'm on it

[plain oar]

ditto

i use corvus a lot

[versed parcel]

Update failed: removed pet instead

[plain oar]

why stop at one passive? we should remove em all!

[mystic otter]

kk

[bitter sierra]

Konq told me he thought HCorvus's and RCorvus's issues could be similar. This proves that is not the case

[plain oar]

what are Rcorvus issues?

[distant nexus]

it is a survival option, yes, but I don't see many people utilizing it specifically - without something like High Tenacity, we can't really use it with boosters a la Berserk properly like Realms do

[bitter sierra]

I'm not here to derail the thread

Edit: Tl;dr there's almost no reason to use it over base RS. It's actively worse in several ways in almost all content.

[distant nexus]

I did ask Knight for RCorv's deal in DMs to get a better insight on what might be the issue here

well we do have that over Realm's Corv I guess it is used/usable in content

[plain oar]

wait this is a different thread about hcorv

[plain oar]

just realized that

[distant nexus]

btw - Odie's poll is select multiple, so if you can't choose between one or the other to "go", you can pick multiple as viable options

[rapid snow]

I'm going to be controversial and say that people who voted for removing steadfast have not experienced the pain of not having it

[distant nexus]

Steadfast was Odie's original offer to trade for Efficacious II and I immediately pivoted to other options

[plain oar]

just using beo when i set up for endless makes me want to cry

[distant nexus]

another option I thought up in ORN chat was getting rid of a flask slot

like we'd have 4 on corv

[bitter sierra]

Briny Pendant + Ymir Vritra Charm + Beguiled Katar on your setup beo

Enjoy

[distant nexus]

Bloodflasks I is 2 mana and 2 blood

[rapid snow]

We need book of the dragon, then palm branch

never space for katar

it's also mostly a joke, probably? XD

[bitter sierra]

Oh right, replace Ymir with Ring of Annwn

[distant nexus]

(also to note I was looking for Efficacious I but got Eff II - levelling that down is also available)

[wind barn]

I am in that camp, but have not voted yet

[distant nexus]

Eff II -> I & Bloodflasks II -> I in exchange for MF as a possibility?

[plain oar]

problem is i need other immunities and gear as well...

but that's not relevant rn

[wind barn]

Something along these lines would be ok with me; I wouldn't want less than 5 flasks though

[plain oar]

what do y'all use corvus even on, when you want it to get eff?

[wind barn]

Efficacious can be useful in endless (immunity) or in most other content (damage reduction paired with MF)

[distant nexus]

in exchange, maybe the Corvus passive could go up to 40% - to lean more into fast and frequent flask usage

[rapid snow]

My take: nothing on live right now (though it could be used). In an anguish 2.0 world, setting up is harder than ever and having a more constant way to reduce damage while doing so would be useful.

[distant nexus]

Some people did see synergy in it and seals endless, yeah

another thing to introduce (sorry I'm doing this a lot):
someone mentioned Bloodloss used to remove HP - perhaps we reintroduce that for just Corvus's version of the flask

that way it is not to the detriment of the other celestials

[wind barn]

"Flasks of Corvus: +30% flask charge. Additionally, mana damage effects also damage your hp"

[rapid snow]

Casts Mana Burn. Effing dies 😂

I like the suggestion though

Seems elegant from an outsider's perspective (with regards to the code)

[unique parrot]

Maybe instead of equal damage to hp, each spell consumes a % of your current hp?

[distant nexus]

we could also just:

• Rename Bloodloss to Manaloss so as to not be confusing
• Create a new flask named Bloodloss that does alpha-Bloodloss things

[wind barn]

But if it didn't jive back then, why would it jive now

[distant nexus]

but yeah when alpha testing it the HP loss on the other celestials was NOT fun

it wasn't jiving for other celestials

[wind barn]

Are we ok with being unable to bloodloss on corvus if our hp is low?

[distant nexus]

I would like to believe it takes a % of your current HP

[wind barn]

Do we make it %based

[distant nexus]

as Bloodloss currently(?) does

[wind barn]

So 70% of current mana, 70% of current hp?

[rapid snow]

Bloodloss currently takes a % of your current, not MAX mana. So yeah I assumed that was the case with the hypothetical altered flask

[sick radish]

Im shocked that flasks of corvus is the leader right now😅

[wind barn]

Most people don't really use it/see use for it

[rapid snow]

It's easier to work around it, too

[wind barn]

I think

[rapid snow]

When I want more charge, I put on gear that gives me it

Even in endless where I would be using that more in theory, casting Trielement spells is usually sufficient

[sick radish]

That inherently restricts you to specific gear

[wind barn]

I haven't had issues with flask charge yet idk

[distant nexus]

bringing @dusk mountain in for the Odie version of the poll

[sick radish]

The quick charging is so good. Arguably one of the most appealing passives. But hey as long as everyone is voting there will be a consensus! I might be a minority in that opinion but thats ok

[rapid snow]

I am just explaining my logic after having played the class a bunch. If one keeps an eye out for exploiting elemental weaknesses then that is plenty to keep flasks full

That doesn't mean I am right

[distant nexus]

I am for keeping Mystic Feather in the event that there are better ways to use and maintain it - right now it's kind of where old (OLD old) Realm was, we can't imagine using Berserks with it

[plain oar]

same here

[plain oar]

its a lot less crippling option than something like removing steadfast imo

[distant nexus]

if we do get rid of Flasks of Corvus I might suggest this move:

• Efficacious II -> I
• Add High Tenacity

[plain oar]

high tenacity on corvus will actually go wild

[distant nexus]

then we'd be in business

[plain oar]

i wouldn't die to my own stupidity in endless!

[rapid snow]

that feels too good. Dangerously so.

[plain oar]

felt the same

it sounds so amazing that i worry about it

[distant nexus]

that's fair, but without some way to use MF in a considerate way, we will just kind of be awkwardly using it

[plain oar]

yeah agreed

mystic feather was always just... there

probably saved me a good amount of times

but i still run ruby on my corvus gear

[rapid snow]

isn't this true of every defensive ability? No one is building around using second chance

or even omnimancy

[plain oar]

those are chances to be saved

[rapid snow]

well... so is MF

[distant nexus]

right, but MF you have to play around

[plain oar]

RS for example builds around db2 at 1 hp

[distant nexus]

with Heretic's glass cannon tendencies at least

[plain oar]

yeah my goto strategy always boils down to "kill it first" in almost all content

to the point i only used ward in anguish and like amorri raids

[distant nexus]

you either play to use MF or you don't as a HereCorv, since you almost always get oneshot

accidentally getting into that passive is very very rare and imho, not worth considering

[plain oar]

i use corv in raids and endless

[median pond]

Sigh... give me efficacious with mystic feather so I can do some tests to show its not useless lol

And if it is ill shut up 😆

[distant nexus]

I don't think Efficacious is the key to making MF work well honestly - the Def/Res boost has to be very particular to get you into passive enough

but I am open to being proved wrong

[wind barn]

Isn't it a 40% damage reduction

[distant nexus]

it is

[wind barn]

I didn't think it was a def/res boost

[distant nexus]

can you tell I don't use Efficacious Damage Reduction

[plain oar]

40% dmg aint gonna save you from being slapped at low hp

[distant nexus]

well if you have MF 👀

[wind barn]

Point is that you can reduce incoming damage to get into mf range

[rapid snow]

Honest question: how much testing those of us here have done doing horde dungeons at, say, 25+ anguish?

Because I have

[distant nexus]

I see the strat, but I think that it will be very hard to get the intended outcome

[plain oar]

testing what exactly?

[rapid snow]

and I saw a HUGE boost in reliability after getting efficacious

[rapid snow]

can you survive floor 1

[distant nexus]

beta Eff II vs MF

[rapid snow]

Boos Unthemed Horde is easy
EDIT: Leaving typo due to popular demand

I'm talking BGs, UWs

Even DRs

[wind barn]

No wait put the ghost back on

[distant nexus]

no longer a Boos dungeon, now just a Boss dungeon

[plain oar]

i run with normal heretic in ang horde

which has eff 2

the eff 2 is good for immune enemies

i dont use multi turn stuff in dungeons

cant speak for the others

[dusk mountain]

Fill me in

[wind barn]

DB very good with efficacious and with MF

[distant nexus]

#1370416842065313852 message

[wind barn]

Poll

[distant nexus]

this and its implications

[plain oar]

hm, didnt think of that

[rapid snow]

legitimiately curious @plain oar , could I see your build? Maybe not in this thread to keep it clean

[plain oar]

ill dm it to you

[rapid snow]

thanks!

[median pond]

I advocated for efficacious in the past for celestial arrow and endless where I saw use for it. I can't speak on the high anguish beta, but I can imagine it is very helpful. I wasn't considering giving up mf for efficacious when I was advocating it

[distant nexus]

you and me both

[dusk mountain]

I see. I don't think people are doing endless or PvP if we are for getting rid of Flasks of Corvus

😅 But everyone vote

Or I'm overvaluing!

[plain oar]

i use corvus for endless and pvp

pvp didnt come to mind honestly

yeah flasks of corvus are very good there

[distant nexus]

odie am I in trouble for leaking that convo

[plain oar]

but for endless it wasnt that important

konq getting banned 😔

[mystic otter]

i think flasksofcorvus is something you need to feel without to know that you wanted it

[mystic otter]

how are you still typing when you're banned

[plain oar]

thought about that as well

[distant nexus]

like Steadfast!

[plain oar]

but i do use the other heretics a lot

and their flasks recharge still seemed fine to me

in hordes and towers at least

[wind barn]

Efficacious: good for DB stuff, maybe for MF, good for immunities in dungeons/endless

Flasks of Corvus: good for pvp, endless flasks

Steadfast: good

Mystic Feather: good if we can synergize, hard to do it atm

[rapid snow]

Maybe so. Still defending/explaining my vote: I do all content with Base and Ara. They don't have it, and I don't need more flask charge except in towers. So in towers I equip a scroll and all is well.
When I use Corvus on live (in endless and to kill titans), I also don't need more charge if I'm paying attention to exploit elemental weaknesses with a Trielement spell. And if I am not paying attention, well, shame on me.

[indigo pond]

Maybe I'm really downplaying flasks of corvus but in my experience with using base heretic seals endless you never use flasks often enough to warrant an increased charge

[wind barn]

Might be different in deeper endless, idk

[indigo pond]

True, dex becomes an issue very fast after a certain point

[plain oar]

i run 1 turn ultima in endless

[wind barn]

That reminds me - is endless keeping dex scaling

[indigo pond]

Ha that would be too great

[median pond]

I did both (minimal endless) and never found myself using the extra flask charging in either. I just stick to base now

[plain oar]

dex is suffering

even with an accessory+bb1 amity with phoenix i still miss a lot

phoenix bb1 is +7% accuracy

[median pond]

Well.. I see the the flask usage in bof. There it would be helpful

[plain oar]

flasks of corv is probably the most important in pvp

rest of content it isnt that important to me

[median pond]

In bof yeah, settlements no

[plain oar]

meant that

[dusk mountain]

@fallen cedar

[median pond]

To be completely honest I don't even use flasks in pvp at all. I'm not even blasting through everyone anymore and I still don't touch the flasks lol

[plain oar]

although i still bloodloss sometimes in area pvp against tankier foes

[median pond]

I forget they exist in that. Im sure I would in bof tho

[dusk mountain]

Bloodray and Sigilstorm do wonders against high ward

Assuming you survive to turn 2 of course

[plain oar]

the SS3 enroute to my face at mach 4 would beg to differ

[indigo pond]

Bufr inflection flask? 😳

[median pond]

I can survive given my AL and his response is just going to say my AL is why I don't use it 😂 . I genuinely just forget about it. I sat there doing 10+ turns against @rugged horizon and that is a 124 AL difference.

[plain oar]

inflection flask now gives def/res+/++/+++ 😳

both t. and perm

thats like 14x to def/res

perfectly balanced imo

[dusk mountain]

I feel more akin to- if you're choosing to not use flasks after surviving due to ALs and you don't win, that's like throwing the game 🤷‍♂️

I haven't messed with Bloodray a ton in PvP in any form

But I've definitely frantically charged my flasks in Endless after getting 4 Berserk ImLord/Realms in a row

[plain oar]

you see, that doesnt happen to me

cuz the zerk immlords second chance and punt me into oblivion

[median pond]

Yeah, thats me forgetting about using them. I also just stick to base so I wouldn't care about the flask charge anyway. Corvus lost a lot of appeal to me after the rework. The changes that just happened brought some of it back and made me get back to creative building rather than lazy lean into AL building

[dusk mountain]

Celestial Arrow change is 11/10

[median pond]

That's the biggest change and primarily why I wanted efficacious originally, but there is use for it outside of pvp

That's why I would rather give up efficacious to keep mf. Just some fun theory crafted builds I could whip up with both

[dusk mountain]

I would also enjoy having something to better help us utilize Mystic Feather

[indigo pond]

If we get a 2 for 1 I don't mind getting rid of efficacious 😂

[dusk mountain]

Though I am a poo with 2 of the amities that do let me run deep with it

[wind barn]

Can we gain any power points from a weaker version of efficacious

[plain oar]

honeslty this is what i want the most

[indigo pond]

Mama mía that's spicy

[plain oar]

wouldnt mind even getting rid of both FoC and eff for high tenacity

[dusk mountain]

Is that assuming we keep Mystic Feather?

[plain oar]

yes

[dusk mountain]

Because then I'd be in board

[unreal heron]

I would kill for High Tenacity on summoner tbh It's a very neat passive okay

[plain oar]

kill your summons and switch to RS :p

[plucky vector]

what changed? 😯

[rapid snow]

it is elementless now

[dusk mountain]

Students arriving check back in later

[indigo pond]

And if it matters the starstruck effect has a 100% chance to proc now

[rapid snow]

deals a good chunk of damage, so probably nice with assasin effects

maybe for longer raids

or to bully anguished Mammon

[plucky vector]

I made this sugestion 3 years ago or 2 , i love u odie

Finally starstruck is """viable""""

Sigil flask on base is gonna hit live? It feel so good to use it

[fallen cedar]

Do you know about double edge and quad edge?

[fallen cedar]

Ummm. Not what I said. I said that to utilize efficacious as defensive, we would need to lock in to multi turn spells.

[wind barn]

Quad egde might be useful in a raid setting, but seems hard to justify in pvp for example

[fallen cedar]

Yo. That’s wild. Flasks winning the vote? That’s crazy

The one class that will be able to make use of flasks quickly as sequencer and quite probably deal insane damage with zero miss chance. Yay. Let’s go!

[plucky vector]

what is that

[median pond]

Eh, I still disagree. Once you're in range bounce out of it if bof is your thing now. Quad edge and and double edge won't save you in a defense setting in ai lol

[fallen cedar]

Bro. You’re only thinking about PvP…

Crazy that I’m the one saying that

[median pond]

In PvE sure. I haven't disregarded pve completely lol

[indigo pond]

Melee attack that reduces your hp by a % of your max hp. Double edge's % is lower than quad edge's

[median pond]

Efficacious is way more useful in PvE though

You aren't in the beta so you should probably read @rapid snow opinion on efficacious in anguish content.

[fallen cedar]

You just wanna spam DB with your 178 ALs🫢

[median pond]

No i actually dont lmfao. Ill be on celestial arrow

With ranger

[wind barn]

DM/efficacious/MF is a very sweet combo in general, but will be very very relevant in ang2.0

[median pond]

You're talking the lazy gilga build.

[wind barn]

You don't need 178 ALs to make use of efficacious damage reduction

I've been using it since it dropped against amorri and stuff like that. Ang2.0 will give us even more opportunities for cool synergies like this

I don't know if flask charge is what should be removed though

[fallen cedar]

It is most definitely not. It is literally the identity patch.

But what do I know

[wind barn]

+30% charge is the identity patch?

[fallen cedar]

You know what I mean

[plucky vector]

i only play real classes, and quad edge i recently found is unlocked by realmshifter dorado, sorry for not having everything unlocked 🫠

[wind barn]

Tell us your experiences with the extra flask charge pls

Most of us haven't made great use of it, convince us

[median pond]

Here, saved you the trouble.

[plain oar]

eff is very good in horde dungeons

[fallen cedar]

By any chance is he referring to the offensive spells?

[wind barn]

No

[fallen cedar]

@rapid snow

[wind barn]

Context

[rapid snow]

what's up?

[indigo pond]

You're good, just found the reply to be funny

[rapid snow]

work emergency right now so not a whole of time to answer

if someone could summarize for me

[wind barn]

The answer is right there mobile

[median pond]

Just search him by name and type in that text for full context, let him work lol

[wind barn]

Efficacious in ang2.0 horde

[fallen cedar]

You cast turn 1 DB on new anguish?

[rapid snow]

I like it. Is good IMHO. The end.

[rapid snow]

turn 2, after WoO

[fallen cedar]

Got ya

[rapid snow]

up to anguish 28-29

basically up until I would get fewer ALs that I have, which 81

[fallen cedar]

Thanks

[plain oar]

my own 2 cents

i run ang 30 horde boss

most of the time

and i dont really db

[rapid snow]

unthemed boss horde I go up to 38 with or without efficacious

[wind barn]

Ang2.0?

[rapid snow]

It's boring and easy

yes

[wind barn]

Nepsus, I meant

[wind barn]

Ang2.0?

[plain oar]

ah wait i got confused about ang 1 or 2

i was talking about ang 1 mb

[rapid snow]

Been a while since I struggled to complete ang 1 angL50 unthemed boss hordes

rework took care of that

use Base Hera for it

[wind barn]

Ok so we have poet's experience using efficacious in 2.0; @fallen cedar can you give us some examples of uses for the extra flask charge

Live or beta

[fallen cedar]

I’m not playing beta

Do whatever.

I never talked against efficacious.

[median pond]

It's pvp. Where he's calling me out 😂

That will be the flask charge use

[fallen cedar]

I just said I don’t think we can give up anything in exchange

[wind barn]

Yeah I just wanna see why you like the flask charge

I want to be convinced

[fallen cedar]

Yeah. Not my job

[wind barn]

K thanks

[dusk mountain]

Let's not try and invalidate experiences on or off the beta, and keep the discussion focused

[cursive orchid]

I'll put my two cents in.

there's a Heretic class besides base 👀

sorry for the goof. keep civil and productive 👋

[rapid snow]

Neglecting work due to intrusive thoughts.
Something I just thought about that those of us not playing beta might not be considering: remember that dex no longer scales with anguish. If you put on your thiefy gear with lotsa' dex, chances are you are going to be dodging a lot more than you are used to

[wind barn]

What if:

• Give MF back
• Downgrade Efficacious
• Downgrade Flasks of Corvus

Split the difference between the two

[dusk mountain]

I’d encourage people to go and use flasks on Corvus for a bit and see how they feel before asking for Flasks of Corvus to go away.

I’m probably 40+ Endless (estimating low) runs (and countless raids) in on live with Corvus and at least a handful on both the pre release beta and current beta and that fast charging really does feel relevant. It might not be the strongest thing and it won’t crush me if it goes away but I would be sad to not get something of value for the exchange.

And, especially post Celestial Arrow/mage skill changes that are on the beta, the struggles of Corvus aren’t really touched upon at all with Efficaciouos in its current form.

Does Mystic Feather? Not without some effort but more so than Efficacious imho and significantly more if high tenacity or help managing it somehow were added

Also Mystic and Grand Mystic line classes are cool 😛

I’ll add the caveat that my experience is just one of many and shouldn’t discredit anyone else’s - hence, go try er out!

[wind barn]

I run corvus endless a little too; how many bloodflasks do you run with

[dusk mountain]

4 - and once I've cleared the 400-500 range for floors, I start getting stacks of zerks in a row

[wind barn]

Hardmode?

[plain oar]

in live i run a ton of endless, both hard and ang, and honestly i dont think i had an, oh shit im out of flasks moment, but i agree that effacious doesnt really do much for corvus

thats why i agree with adding high tenacity, would be a whole lot useful and make corvus feel way better, with the ability to utilize MF

[median pond]

I don't see much use for it. Doesn't RS complain about it still because if any other status gets applied by anything you die?

Sure it can go with crit poise, but unless you're inflicting yourself with every single negative status... seems extremely detrimental in anguish content

[versed parcel]

Imo high tenacity and steadfast shouldnt ever go together.
Redline and second chance too but hey 🤷‍♂️

[median pond]

Yeah, I'd rather have steadfast lol. I don't think second chance should be a thing or would even be considered seeing as we had to lose mf for the time being, mf was really the most survivable thing with some of the lowest survival still to keep it balanced

High tenacity also pairs with resurgence. We don't gain damage with low HP, we gain damage with low mana. We don't need to be 1 hp to utilize mystic feather. High tenacity is a no for me

[versed parcel]

Yeah totally, i wasnt suggesting SC i was just commenting on how its also too much of a combo yet it exists ingame

[median pond]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were suggesting second chance. The flask idea with second chance did sound real cool to me, but that's more reliable than MF and if we can't have MF with efficacious or something else I feel like that would be off the table lol

After running bof and seeing h.corvus charge a flask so fast they can blood-ray you and drop you almost immediately, I'm down to lose the flask charge lol. Seems a little too OP there

If more experienced BoF ppl want to show some samples of it not being ridiculous there, I'm open to see it. I admittedly don't BoF so I suck at it and am not geared/adorned towards it by any means

[rich scroll]

I've noticed Horvus still needs a scroll to get a Blood Ray by turn 2. The others need Macha or Morrigan scrolls, specifically to fill 1 of each flask in 1 turn.

That might look different for Horvus with Apollyon gear equipped (haven't tested that yet) but, if not, then that means we still can't fill 1 mana & 1 blood flask on turn 1 even with Flasks of Corvus without scroll assistance. Speaking strictly for PvP opening turns.

Probably don't want to use a scroll for Endless so I'm not sure how losing Flasks of Corvus would impact that. Not sure where else it would matter beyond the points above since it's not hard to stay topped off in towers.

[sick radish]

It feels like you just want a dedicated pvp heretic class

Nothing wrong with that, just cant come up with any reason why anyone would oppose high tenacity with MF

MF classes tend to not be good in single swing combat, but pretty good in everything else

Id bet that with HT and MF, corvus would absolutely destroy anguish

[median pond]

Read my reasons why.

I literally explained underneath it why its not a benefit

We don't gain damage from 1 hp. Negative statuses will be a detriment in anguish content

We have iconoclast why would we want high tenacity without resurgence?

I pve more than the pvp'ers saying I want a strictly pvp class lmao

Yeah man, PvE is totally useless to me. I used to use corvus strictly in PvE and PvP. It lost its appeal to me with the rework.

Meanwhile 🥱🥱🥱. These comments always come from the same kingdom/ members

[median pond]

I even posted having flask charges as being a huge BoF benefit. Too much of a benefit. You seriously didn't read. You just try to discredit me on anything I post.

[sick radish]

I see the reasons but I write on a common theme. Don't take it personally. And Im not discrediting your every post. Did you read what I wrote? Said nothing wrong with that. Most of the time I just disagree with your points. Thats what a discussion is.

[median pond]

No points to be disagreed with when you can't be bothered to read them 👍. Anyways we can keep it in OL.

[sick radish]

I try to read as much as I can in this role. There are hundreds of thousands of messages. If you think I misread something or skipped something, sorry!

It's not an easy role trying my best here. Would appreciate not making it harder for me 👍

[wind barn]

Is flask charge multiplicative?

[sick radish]

I dont think so solely based on what I know about other similar passives

[wind barn]

I just tested, it is. 75% scroll is barely not enough to fill a half-full bloodflask on base

But two apoY pieces and a bax piece are barely enough on corvus

1.3x1.12x1.12x1.1 = 1.79
1.3+0.12+0.12+0.1= 1.64

[sick radish]

Thanks for testing👍 interesting

[wind barn]

That gives flasks of corvus additional value fwiw

Testing done with a trielemental spell of course

Then again, a scroll is basically needed anyway even on corvus

[sick radish]

Hoping to see more gear for charging

[rapid snow]

Really asking here: is turn 2 in PvP a meaningful consideration in the current meta?
I don't see myself reliably surviving one hit. On defense, taking 2 is even more unrealistic. Not to mention we cannot help our AI use its flasks. Multi-turn spells on the other hand, we can.

If one survives the first hit and we have MF, we might take 0 damage. If we have Efficacious, we WILL take 60% damage. If we have both then we take only 0 or 60% damage, which is awesome

If by the end of that you solidify your advantage by, say, casting your own one shot (like Celestial Arrow or Ultima II), then you've won.

[wind barn]

I think if ss gets nerfed enough, the meta can develop for turn 2

Obviously speaking purely about non-bof pvp

Right now there's not much point in trying to build anything more defensive or complex than turn 1, but I have a lot of success in kd war defense with some builds

(As long as they're not on ss)

[rapid snow]

Maybe. Though I imagine our Beo friends would just more over to Verse IV? I don't know of a counter to it

Granted, Beo is not the entire meta in Orna

[wind barn]

The only "counter" to verse4 on defense is hp/ward start, so pumpkinless

Block chance, parapet, etc

[median pond]

From the ai side, ss is pretty survivable in pvp now on the beta. A high AL will still probably 1 shot, but tank builds seemed to help tremendously against it compared to before. Idk how verse is faring with selene hands, but apparently prom hands is better for it so I guess maybe no change. I don't stumble across many beos though. I think it's a pretty underrated class honestly. Especially if you are a high AL player

[sick radish]

There will definitely always be one shot meta. Builds and ALs will potentially force 2 turn on one side of the fight. Ideally you wouldn't want to plan for 2 turns. In which case, efficacious is likely the best for PVP of all the passives in the poll as has been said by others, since you can at least try to force turn 2 with the reduced damage.

That being said, there is definitely merit to MF. There only exists 2 survival passives - Mystic Feather & Second Chance (/ Mana Rush) I think the variety is cool. Can always swap to another heretic class if you want Mana Rush over Mystic Feather, which no other class can do. Thats pretty cool imo

[fallen cedar]

That’s my alt bro

Why on earth would I ever do anything on an account I don’t care about?

Btw Corvus is soooo OP in BoF I don’t even use it.

And BoF is the only “OPTIONAL” type of PvP.

IMO, the only type of PvP that matters. ALs can’t save anyone there. ☠️

In the end, the problem with blood ray is the same as epee. It’s just a spell that breaks ALs. As soon as people catch on…

[median pond]

If a 200k bloodray on turn 3 in bof is fair pvp in your eyes then so be it 👍. Slaps just as hard as AL pvp.

[dusk mountain]

Let's keep the conversation about Heretic Corvus 😀

I understand Bloodray is part of the kit

But it's one of many "I win without you having a chance" strategies that exist in Blades of Finesse due to house rules.

[fallen cedar]

It’s a turn 2 move at best. lol.

Like perfect scenario…2 turns

And yeah. Blood ray isn’t even part of the debate.

[median pond]

Flasks of corvus are. Hopefully they go

[sick radish]

Think the poll ended so just posting results here. Odies poll still rollin

[wind barn]

If nothing else, I want manaseep to stay if I leave the dungeon. Basically unusable in corvus endless

That would be an Ornaversary miracle

[sick radish]

#patch-notes message

Votes are implemented! Thoughts? Thanks for voting

Mostly - is this something everyone can live with right now so we can launch this patch to live?

[wind barn]

Mystic Feather's back? I'm uninstalling

[sick radish]

#1370416842065313852 message

[wind barn]

(It's a joke)

[sick radish]

Ok phew hard to tell sometimes

So this is liveable? We good to ship for now?

[rapid snow]

This was my ideal scenario, so very much so. Yes.

[sick radish]

Awesome

[stray island]

Yes

[rapid snow]

Wait for others to chime in. I don't necessarily represent the majority

I think few of us were focus testing dungeons, and others focus tested other parts I didn't

[sick radish]

Sounds good

[wind barn]

I voted for efficacious to get the boot again given the options, but it wasn't a strong feeling either way

I gained appreciation for mystic feather and flasks of corvus, I still love the efficacious/MF combo

[sick radish]

I think efficacious with MF could open up some legit survivability strategies

I do like FoC but this feels good enough

[fallen cedar]

Meh. Never got the point of needing to use Corvus for dungeons. But w/e. I hate it. But I’ll learn to live with it and make the best of it.

Corvus don’t even get omnimancy. lol. Whatever

[dusk mountain]

Yeah this might not have been my vote but it's fine 🤷‍♂️

I'd love to see Efficacious on Corvus be more specific to the class as a final change if that's what we are sticking with

But there are bigger fish to fry and as with the rework as a whole, I'll run with it!

I still think Heretic's rework is the most fun overall and this doesn't change that one way or another

[rapid snow]

If it makes anyone feel any better about this, this video shows how difficult horde dungeons are with anguish and how efficacious + MF combine with each other to let us survive set up

With what I consider to be top of the line gear, and fully anguished

[versed parcel]

Nice approach, really digging that terraseal for mild hp regen so you wont die to zerk but still retains MF

[rapid snow]

Courtesy of me nuking my healing ability hahaha

The status protection malus is also why katar, vritra, and briny are there

Anguish tends to force you to consider things you wouldn't before. It also puts a lot of pressure on those precious first few turns to allow us to survive

Efficacious or MF didn't cut it on their own I found (though efficacious got a lot closer in terms of consistency). But together, with obviously limited testing, results are already improving a lot