3.17 Spiked Shield & Gilga Changes

[visual crescent]

[fringe mirage]

Dosen counters with ss1 hitting the same as i do with ss3 😆 . Heretic is actually the most balanced in terms of ss3 damage compared to crit building, but the survivability is substantially higher if I can survive a turn 1 hit

If I had a dangy laptop over 155% to beat out my 200% arisen shield it would be another story

Oops posted the sequencer stats lmao one sec

And sequencer

What you don't see is the amount of times I had to challenge them to actually land a hit

[restive fiber]

I have one Rhada on my set, and above average Def and Res. (No Ward to speak of though.)

I do genuinely think an Ultima for Wrecked would do far more than that to me.

Well, above average Def and Res for my level

[fringe mirage]

I tried ultima. Everyone was capping me at about 70k. Dosen was the only one not using something to deter ultima. You can literally zero out ultima off the bat with a 80% resist amity and some rhadas

My ultima hits ranged from that 18k hit to 950k turn 1 on dosen. It's too hard to test against deity because of unstable omnimamcy. The 950k was a double cast

And yes, my crit is going to annihilate any low AL player. I'm 173 AL

My gilga at 155 AL was dealing 400k-600k+ turn 1 damage with ss if I went with a selene filled axe. I didn't ss3.

Ss1 has better pen which is why I used it

[visual crescent]

Well i think quick cast ultima get lose augment crit from prom hand for it hit as hard

More over in pvp, it has 3 m1 only not 4.5 like it do well in pve

[restive fiber]

M1 of 3 is better than anything I can throw right now except maybe Neutra. (Not sure of the M1 of Eventualus spells in PvP. Tried to test last year for Cade Labs, but arsed up the test on account of not knowing an important bit of information at the time—and subsequently learned that it’s basically impossible to test anything in PvP if it cannot be thrown turn 1.)

[fringe mirage]

Rend epee has a m1 of 5

Not a spectacular hard hitter turn one, but the average is around 70kish from what I've seen. At my al on heretic I think I can get 120k with it

I'm tempted to hoc back to gilga to show ss turn 1 hits lol. I mainly used g.ursa for it too

[restive fiber]

Yeah, I don’t have that yet (and, ironically, probably only have gear to make it work if I use the dreaded Selene Hands; my actual physical weapons are all 💩).

I’ll have it eventually from Conq Guild—though at this point, I might wait for Allegiance instead of buying it. (I’m probably 3-ish weeks from having enough Proofs of Crownship to buy DoF, or maybe a month from having enough to buy BoF—but I’m not sure that’s the wisest expenditure right now?)

[unborn spruce]

I can't say about the allegiance system because I don't know how fast we can grind much higher after the beta but.. if I can give you an advice it would be to take the Highest spec first if it's only a matter of few weeks for you.. I did the mistake of buying the first one, then oslo pet.. and I'm yet to have BoF.. probably like 5 days away 😛

[restive fiber]

How usable will the highest one be for me though?

The best non-cele Atk weapon I own right now has 1339 Atk. Compare my best non-Cele staff at >1600 Mag. It’s a huge difference, and I generally prefer using Mag anyway.

I could probably make the higher one work by doing Cele Lute + Selene Hands + Hybrid amity—but I’m not sure that’s a super wise investment, since that build is probably going to eat a nerf soon and we don’t yet know how big of a nerf (if any).

Like, the extra turns of DoF would probably be useful to me, but do people actually play Heretic-BoF or other magical BoF builds like that?

We probably ought to continue this in another channel, lol

[unborn spruce]

Well, as far as specs go, some swear by oracle because they've got insane amities, some others by BoF... some like me with cataphract because.. safety first :D. It really depends on the context and content. But, if you are going to pick between DoF or BoF I would just wait a bit and get the highest one.
Also, fun fact, the conquest pets are kinda useless it seems 😛

[languid yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/popcorn-entertained-gif-2997471024266002252

[rain salmon]

Xd

[thorny olive]

It’s time to bring back the Spiked Shield that can land critical hits.

[fringe mirage]

I hope that's a joke lol

[pseudo sonnet]

How much less are people hitting on beta now? Im okay with the static miss chance if SS hits less than CRITs from a glass cannon.

[wild island]

same question

[late oracle]

I havent tested yet, but with the lack of dex scaling, I was basically hitting 99% of the time before. So I would guess 5-7x more often depnding on the skill.

[wild island]

how about dmg cap reduction?

[lost hazel]

compared to here, ss1 is now 4m, ss3 5m

[wild island]

any sense of whether its a cap or a multiplier reduction?

and ty!

[versed grove]

• Spiked Shield/Chained Shield: adjusted the damage when high a value of Ward is used (ie: when highly Ascended)
  Is this the previous "counts 50% after AL 50, counts 25% after AL 100", or different numbers?

[pseudo sonnet]

Can you do tests live vs beta just no buffs turn 1 damage? Send load out also

[lost hazel]

nah i dont wanna HoC in live, i'm not gilga

beta loadout below, amities are 30% dragon, axe has 2x ward regen 3x attack spines

[fringe mirage]

So ss3 took a good hit, ss1 not so much? Ss1 has higher pen and like I said above was my go to because it was still high damage while being an absolute tank

Adjustable AL on beta with no need for mats pls

[broken bough]

i can do a onetime set if you let me know username/class/desired AL

[languid yoke]

pls say AL500 lol

[fringe mirage]

_Wrecked_, gilga, I'll say 155 AL because thats what I was on gilga when I went back to heretic

[broken bough]

done

[young river]

SS1 has way less contribution from ward, which was where the exponential scaling had the impact

[fringe mirage]

I used ss1 and had stupid high turn ones with g.ursa 🤷‍♂️

[fringe mirage]

Thank you very much!

[half karma]

Id like it too but make it on live servers pls

[gritty plinth]

Yeah I need to test al500 on live servers

[half karma]

Science driven testing

[gritty plinth]

Golduck and I are about to be sequestered in our own server at al500 with nothing to do but throw spiked shields at each other

[half karma]

T1 dmg cap battlefest 🔥 🔥

[fringe mirage]

Is there anything special I need to do? I cycled through the mirrors and chose gilga to see if the AL would change and no dice. Also tried account recovery before doing so

[broken bough]

I did the account called _Wrecked_

oh. which hasn't logged in since Aug 2022

you must have a different username

[fringe mirage]

Ok thanks. My bad i guess I should have said this one

Thought you meant my current in game name lol

[broken bough]

okay, i'll do that one

due to the mistake, i'm running low on free ALs, so i'll just take them from your live char

done

[fringe mirage]

😂 😂

I did check there to make sure it didn't mistakenly get put to live. I had an oh no moment 😆

[gritty plinth]

Can I have the ones from the _Wrecked_ account since it's been inactive for a few years

[versed grove]

reduction seems a tad too minimal tbh; AL 181 .identical gear (recent mirror), 244k in beta 275k in live

with selene hands, so it' slike selene hands debuff entered the picture, but not "ward contribution at high al"

sorry wrong picture

live above

beta here

[west verge]

Live / beta

[half karma]

Damn

[west verge]

kinda reminds me of when testing with the high AL ward nerf

[pseudo sonnet]

You are still going to run people over hitting 360k.... I dont even need to hit that much when I run into you to take you out.

[west verge]

is this something like, additional ward over 100Al is discounted in damage calculation?

[signal heron]

AL 76 Live vs AL 68 Beta

[fringe mirage]

Ok, still didn't work. Ensseric has the examples though, so it's cool. If anything I'll just HoC my old heretic mirror and see what I can do

[signal heron]

From a lower (but still decent) AL situation this has almost no effect on me

[versed grove]

i dont understand how at al 181, with 5 selene hands, my SS3 is so similar live v beta

[signal heron]

And 200k damage still oneshots people perfectly fine

[versed grove]

i get reduced even less i don't get it

[west verge]

given how much the ward consumption on that shows, it does mean that ss damage is impacted even at that level

[signal heron]

Wait - yeah that's right there's a Selene Hands nerf

[wild island]

you do need to hit about that much, 75k @ 0.75 = 300k

[gritty plinth]

Let's keep in mind that in every example, the damage dealt is still less than the user's total hp

[signal heron]

My axe is Selene hands

[west verge]

yeah

make sure to test w/o

[versed grove]

yes it's like it's only the selene hands nerfed

let me test without

[west verge]

in my first image i showed what selene hands nerf looks like

#1370141629444395028 message

[wild island]

there was also a crit multiplier nerf that was reverted

so two amities would be 1.6 or 1.69?

[versed grove]

1.96 instead of 1.8

[fringe mirage]

My crit examples above were live. Pretty sure sokam's were too

[west verge]

I assume this is just an M2 reduction

[versed grove]

lol i do more damage in beta

i swear i don't understand

[wild island]

dang, you have 40% dmg amities for ss?

[versed grove]

no

does ss crit now? i don't understand your question

[wild island]

1.96 v 1.8

what you mean

[versed grove]

that's oracle crit 40% yes

for ultima

it was 1.8x before now back to 1.96

[wild island]

meanwhile a dragon enchanted cel ax + 2x 30% amities is what I was referring to

[versed grove]

anyway this is without selene hands

in beta

and this is live

i reallt have no clue same build

[wild island]

wow

[versed grove]

no ok

LOL

live i had a t1 carl ring ornate equipped

sorry guys

it looked insane

ok it's identical damage

[haughty turtle]

Still seems to do more damage than the alternatives like crit from my quick testing and from what people are posting? The fixed miss chance coming back at the same time is probably more of a buff than anything else

[versed grove]

i don't understand how the nerf worked because if it touches me 0 at al 181

then it might be after some actual nominal amount of damage? i see esseric having a big reduction

knight nothing aside from selene hands nerf i think

[signal heron]

This is one of the few times I agree with AncientL

I'm not sure what was done regarding SS. I'm seeing minimal changes in my personal testing when I expected to be nerfed, and I see from Yoshi and Ensseric that they had huge nerfs.

[neat temple]

Maybe because they are gilga

[trim ruin]

Is it just because they're sufficiently above AL100? Does the "anti-quadness" only kick in after a huge intro time?

[signal heron]

That seems likely, though it's not clear why AncientL wasn't hit

[versed grove]

i am al 181

is that not enough?

[neat temple]

Personally at al100 on dara i went from 330k to 260k

[versed grove]

but numbers are low because GSA sure, still the quadratic part should stop /get reduced?

[trim ruin]

then yeah I don't think that's the reason for the weird math (that it's not just about being above a certain AL)

[signal heron]

Hands or no hands?

This is important

[neat temple]

Full hands

[signal heron]

Yeah

[versed grove]

hands got nerfed

so you are getting the expected reduction from that

[neat temple]

Oh yeah totally forgot that

[versed grove]

but not from formula having changed for ward contribution

[signal heron]

Was a non-gilga reduction accidentally applied to only gilga?

[versed grove]

we need an al 150+ non-gilga with mirror to confirm / deny

[echo bone]

(no Selene hands used, the exact same build in ever piece of gear)
AL104 on Live vs AL99 on Beta

Not 150 but

[versed grove]

that's big yes

[gritty plinth]

Your stats are different

[pseudo sonnet]

What do you hit with selene hands that needs to be considered also

[gritty plinth]

You have different ward and hp totals

[echo bone]

That's the 5 ALs

[versed grove]

can you try much worse items?

[echo bone]

104 vs 99

[versed grove]

like far less ward?

see if the proportional reduction is the same?

[versed grove]

like remove axe from both to check

just curious i think it's about "big numbers" threshold

[gritty plinth]

Hybrid? Hmm

Maybe that was the change?

[signal heron]

Mine is hybrid as well

[echo bone]

Live on left vs Beta on right
Same build just without the axe

[signal heron]

(Yes, even on RS)

[versed grove]

see

proportional reduction much much smaller

[signal heron]

Selene Hands are so broken it makes sense for me to use a hybrid amity on a class without a magic stat 😐

Yeah so it looks like it must have to do with a threshold

Where SS starts considering less of the ward you have

[gritty plinth]

Hybrid damage or hybrid amity

[signal heron]

Yes

[versed grove]

the 15% or the "use both att mag" amity?

[signal heron]

Yes

[versed grove]

how much difference vs using just 15% hybrid?

[signal heron]

I'll check

[versed grove]

i thought the other only helped very very balanced stats like deity or beo

[signal heron]

This is the build though

[versed grove]

how balanced are the stats from stat screen?

[sly geode]

I'll test chained/spiked shield in ang 30 towers in a bit and see if anything changed in terms of clearing capabilities

[versed grove]

hm k not so distant

[signal heron]

The difference with and without it is minimal

[versed grove]

5754.81927711

vs 5490

so should be 3-4% more

[signal heron]

But it's technically better lol. Just a tiny bit

[versed grove]

this "should" be

(5490+4093) / 1.66

the stat it uses instead of 5490

[signal heron]

Yes. I'm the one who wrote that formula

[hazy comet]

Before nerf, after nerf

RealmD 49 AL beta

Now has flat miss

[wild island]

do verse 4 too

[hazy comet]

💀

[sly geode]

I know this is a PvP thread

[signal heron]

It's both

[sly geode]

Barely

[hazy comet]

Its definitely both

[signal heron]

Depends on how often S2 is here

With S2 and Sokam it leans more toward PvP 😆

[hazy comet]

CS turn 1 is towers / anguish dungeons

[west verge]

w/ selene hands

[hazy comet]

We use pvp logic but it applies to everything guys

[sly geode]

Anyway, the flat mixed chance is barely a nerf at high anguish. Between the -accuracy malus and having to status things, I pretty much only hit stunned targets when applicable

[west verge]

that one is funny

[signal heron]

Static miss chance change basically only applies to PvP

Whether it has a static miss chance or not is almost irrelevant for PvE with Anguish 1.0 dex gone

[versed grove]

ye but your damage is only 1.5% difference

[hazy comet]

Then why not remove it

[versed grove]

that makes it weird

[signal heron]

I don't care either way, which is why I'm not making a big deal about it. What I care about is the damage that seems to be simultaneously nerfed too much and not enough

[signal heron]

The formula could also be /1.65

[west verge]

w/ beguiled axe

[hazy comet]

Im working to get ss3 fixed as a whole. Not just as it pertains to pvp, or pve.

[versed grove]

might be the 65 yes

[hazy comet]

Damage is still a problem. So is flat miss

Please dont discredit any of that

[gritty plinth]

Why would it be nerfed too much

[pseudo sonnet]

How much is enough in PVP tho? I Wish I had more than enough when critting but I dont....

[west verge]

im inclined to ask for the skill to be split like ultima

[trim ruin]

I've got no idea how to make sense of

this: https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370141629444395028/1371523966602182796
and this: https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370141629444395028/1371524350179807273

😅

"Players with names that start with Enss lose 2/3rds damage, everyone else unaffected"?

[gritty plinth]

Ss honestly should not be a top contender for damage when the build for it is already tanky af

[west verge]

its a targeted nerf

[hazy comet]

We cant talk strictly pvp anymore because nobody will take it seriously. Must talk in terms of pve

[west verge]

[versed grove]

uh what do you mean?

[pseudo sonnet]

PVE doesnt hurt anyones feelings tho

[gritty plinth]

Have you met an IL?

[hazy comet]

If you want change ive learned to make it pve focused and based. Unfortunately

So here we are

[pseudo sonnet]

Is this not a gps game with other players? No one would care if it wasnt smashing people in PVP

[polar bronze]

Have you seen the refinery thread? 👀

.... jk jk jk

[signal heron]

With dexterity scaling gone from Anguish, it's no longer difficult to hit anything with any skill

[versed grove]

some classes have pepega dex

[polar bronze]

Is there a medium where SS damage gets hit with the hammer properly

And Gilga (base and Ursa?) Get some bonus damage for their class-line (non ward based) skills to makeup for the PvE hit at least?

That is also palatable or at least able to be handled by Gilgamesh?

[hazy comet]

2 turn

[young river]

I'd still like to discuss my idea of adding a base m2 damage to the SS line in which the ward expended gets added to, thus bringing the floor up (in addition to the asc ward nerf that is in testing right now)

[hazy comet]

Floor up and ceiling down is fine too

Ceiling still the same really

[young river]

Well the ceiling is down right now it seems

[hazy comet]

It went from astronomical to stratosphere

[polar bronze]

I.E could someone do a poll for like:

-Spiked Shield(s) are 2 turns (in PvP?) Which could take a damage and survival hit if someone wanted to load an axe with Lungs of Oceanus
-Spiked Shields lose 4x scaling but other moves are buffed for PvE purposes/viability
-Floor Up
-Each gilga interacts with SS moves different for some tradeoff (overcomplicated)

When we get a bit more on the table?

[polar bronze]

But is it down to lower than non SS glass cannon counterparts?

[young river]

A better metric imo would be to compare it to Glass Cannon Gilgamesh class/subclass builds

[hazy comet]

Summary of SS3/CS current issues:

• turn 1 gilga damage is relatively low due to half starting ward pool
• turn 1 everyone else damage is high due to full starting ward pool
• turn 1 damage still exceeds glass alternatives
• Gilgas primary raid damage is SS3, so we cannot nerf the damage to the ground unless this skill is replaced
• Flat miss allows you to build pure ward /survivability with no regards to dex whatsoever in all forms of content
• SS3 scaling damage off of a survival stat (ward, hp) will almost always be problematic

[gritty plinth]

Also, do y'all not think early gilga has a performance problem

Almost nobody goes gilga in early t10 because the class is really bad without the necessary gear

[hazy comet]

I think there are workarounds that are unclear to a new player

[junior imp]

Tbf, most folks would say any class isn't particularly easy without the necessary gear. We do want to keep in mind all Gilga players with changes though, rather than strictly t11 ascended players

[trim ruin]

Gilgas primary raid damage is SS3, so we cannot nerf the damage to the ground unless this skill is replaced
I think we need to define "to the ground" here; bound to be a lot of disagreement on such a loose/emotional phrase.

For some people, losing 10% damage is enough to think it's 'dead'.
For others, losing 50% damage would still leave SS damage above all other options, and thus it's not a problem.

The selene hands change hits everyone, new and old. The quadfix should theoretically only hit highly ascended players.

[hazy comet]

100% agreed. Trying my best to leave emotions out and say it like it is. The primary issue i see here is any nerf to ss3 damage is more of a direct nerf to gilga because of its reliance on ss3 in raids.

Most raiding skills have nerfs and balances elsewhere aside from ss3 currently

Hence where the issues are coming from

[gritty plinth]

Everything I've ever heard about early gilga is that it's bad compared to everything else, because it needs so much ward stacking

[sly geode]

Its hard to compare to Friday results because of the new malus tech (and because I think it might be bugged)

But chained/spiked shield are still probably the best option as of right now

Floor 21 ang 30

[junior imp]

Sure, but ward is one of the most available stats in the game. Event gear very frequently has ward

By comparison mana regen, follower stats, summon stats etc are all less available

Not saying Gilga is easy early by any stretch. Just saying that a point about requiring necessary gear is a shared viewpoint by many classes

[versed grove]

i got told you have to list the PvE problems though

[hazy comet]

These are PVE problems

Turn 1 is towers / dungeons

[versed grove]

can quadfix SS3 and add a raid damage bonus to the skill for gilga only like "raid hunter" or something passive +25% ward skills damage vs raids

[versed grove]

ye i know i was just joking. Anyway the main problem is that it is too good vs alternatives

in too many scenarios (if it was bis in 1-2 things it would be ok i guess)

[sly geode]

Floor 25 mimic fight

[hazy comet]

No worries, agreed 🤝 do you see anything out of line in my summary or something to add?

[versed grove]

being already thought of as the best possible skill for anguished dungeons with hp scaling is a problem

[hazy comet]

But I capture that in the 'turn 1 damage' right?

[versed grove]

in some sense "high amount of passive ward regen being available make ward skills more problematic"

[west verge]

addressing bullet 4

it could be split like ultima

[versed grove]

no it's in the late stages of dungeons you can still keep going when the idea was originally i suppose, you depleted a limited amount of ward

[west verge]

but idk if Odie likes maintaining that these days

[versed grove]

not able to sustain forever spamming the skill

if you were required to stac / replenish ward 1/3 of the time it wouild be less problematic in some content

[sly geode]

Now chained shield damage compared to slice with ymir feathers

[versed grove]

i know a nerf like "double the amount of ward loss" would do nothing to turn 1 problems

still that could address at least raids / dungeons to some extent

something like you have to keep it where it matters

[sly geode]

Despite the nerf, chained shield still:

• deals more damage
• is significantly more tanky
• doesn't need an anguish weapon or offhand to function
• can ignore crit and 2H malus options entirely

Nerf it more 🙂

[west verge]

ward is now additive

enjoy

[hazy comet]

And you dont have to build dex at all, can just build pure ward for maximum hit chance

To add to that list

[hazy comet]

I think that could solve half of the issues definitely

Its hard to nerf something that is oppressive in some areas yet underwhelming in others (raids vs towers/dungeons/pvp)

I truly think thats where the issue in balance is coming from

Having been in the weeds with this for a bit now

[versed grove]

ultima and bp are raid skills that are split

unclear why ward-based skills should feel bad to be split

[west verge]

also as Dangy is right to point out...it takes awhile to get to the point where SS is behaving badly

[hazy comet]

You mean with gear?

Or ALs?

[west verge]

both

[versed grove]

it's fairly normal actually with enough complexity to expect stuff to work differently in pvp; problem with ward attack skills is that they are oppressingly good in tower and dungeons as well

[trim ruin]

I'm not seeing a lot of argument for where SS/CS is 'underwhelming' in any content area, pve or pvp, on any class.

The only place people seem to agree it's not busted is early T10 gilga trying to use it with mismatched ward gear. At which point it's competing with idk warrior's pavane or something.

[versed grove]

but pvp would be easy to fix by splitting (just removed static miss chance from pvp only)

[hazy comet]

Gilgas are claiming that with these nerfs, ss3 is underwhelming in raids

[versed grove]

it's underwhelming even at decent gear , al 30-40

in raids vs US

for gilga

[sly geode]

Let's see some video evidence of the underwhelming raids then

Tired of hyperbole and theory crafting

[hazy comet]

1 sec

[versed grove]

try AL 30 gilga US vs ss3 raiding

with decent not op gear, so 180-190, and 1 line amities

[versed grove]

(it's expected to be underwhelming because in raid the insane part kicks in with the quadratic ascending)

[hazy comet]

Beta vs live

At 150+ ALs

[sly geode]

There is no world where hitting for 1.6m with only bear and gunnr is underwhelming

[hazy comet]

At 150 ALs?

[sly geode]

Yes, ultima and ultima strikes are busted and need to be nerfed too

[versed grove]

everything is busted

lol

we are going to face 200m raids but 1.6m at turn 3 is ok

[hazy comet]

Got it so you're saying ultima needs a nerf not ss3

Im confused

[sly geode]

Realm strikes 2 with bear/gunnr and redline at 100 AL

Spiked shield 3 is now in line with other skills

[hazy comet]

Non redline ultimastrikes

Turn 3 60 AL

[versed grove]

wait you can use a real pet though because you dont need the warg to refresh your ward

[pseudo sonnet]

dmg up

[versed grove]

so use mighty mimic obviously?

[sly geode]

Im saying current beta damage is in line with other endgame skills (like realmstrikes)

But if we compare it to the single most broken skills in the game that have been broken for years, then yeah it looks bad

[versed grove]

SS3 forces you into the ward pet can't compare other skills with no pet and say it's balanced

try rend mighty mimic as a minimum?

as comparison

lol at trying with no pet

[hazy comet]

But in order to get change to happen we have to prove balance -against the other things that exist- otherwise counterarguments will exist and nothing will ever change

[hazy comet]

Hence this list

[sly geode]

Sure, but balance it against anything that isn't ultima and it looks fine

Balance anything against ultima and it looks bad

[sly geode]

Balancing against a massive outlier is a bad idea

[versed grove]

s2ivi do rend pls so he stops talking ultima

[sly geode]

Gilga ded

[sly geode]

Man, im so underwhelmed

[gritty plinth]

Notice the ward difference

[sly geode]

How dare you not use a damage cap breaking amity

[gritty plinth]

Hitting for 1 mil instead of 3 mil does not make the skill unusable when you still have half a million points of ward

[real blade]

Just shows how broken quadratic scaling is with a lot of al

[echo bone]

Realm strikes 2 is a multi hit, low pen, single turn, fixed miss chance skill? Why are we comparing it to Ultimastrikes, a Omnimancy, two-turn, very gear reliant skill, in the "Spiked Shield & Gilga Changes" thread??

[hazy comet]

Thats fine - we agree with what needs to be done here. Im trying to address the counter arguments as best I can so we can get the change that we both want here

[signal heron]

Both are endgame Realmshifter raiding skills 💀

[versed grove]

which is what ss3 is?

[broken bough]

kk, nerfing BP too. brb

[signal heron]

It makes sense to compare different endgame raiding loadouts across classes to determine where SS3 makes the most sense to sit

[hazy comet]

Because gilgas who are resisting the change are using low raid damage with nerfs as the counterargument to change

[versed grove]

need to check rend for gilga imho

[trim ruin]

SS (with a build with hundreds of thousands of ward) should definitely not even be comparable damage to a build with 20k ward doing BP/Ultima(strikes)/etc. and hoping not to get hit by the enemy. 😅 Something that has ~zero chance of dying versus something that can very easily die is a bad comparison.

@echo bone the question was about "how much (raid) damage should SS be dealing?", hence bringing up other raid comparisons.

[versed grove]

to compare the damage

[signal heron]

Yeah, Rend/Daggers can be relevant for both RS and Gilga

[versed grove]

i think turn 3 rend does more than ss3 with top gear for both builds for essenric but icould be wrong

(now after nerf)

also one relevant thing is some builds get golden with insane amities more than others (bp in particular doesn't benefit much from amities ) and those can be harder to get than all other gear

[gritty plinth]

I've heard enough, decrease the max number of summons on the battlefield

[signal heron]

Big safe raiding has also always been one of Gilga's things though, so it's also not bad if Gilga is a bit better at it

[versed grove]

like towerfall could more than double with eprfect amities

[sly geode]

I was comparing it to spiked shield 3 damage

And the claim that SS3 is now underwhelming

[trim ruin]

Unironically. Wish that BP was also quadfixed (ages ago, and now also).

[gritty plinth]

Why tho

Wait no this is gilga thread

Ignore me

[trim ruin]

Because things that scale quadratically with ascension, when everything else doesn't, means that they're the only thing that matters once players are highly ascended.

It's true for SS and BP simultaneously.

[pseudo sonnet]

2 turn skill with 2 buffs at 120 als deity ursa note I don't have a ton of ward to keep me safe and warm.

[gritty plinth]

I feel like a lot of gilga mains take the ward for granted and forget that other classes just don't get to deal damage AND survive like them

[west verge]

yes the ward class...takes the ward for granted

[echo bone]

We shouldn't be trying to completely have everything balanced though no? Classes should be better and certain things than others, like knight said, it's not bad if Gilga can raid safer.
Everyone is up in arms about Gilga raiding but is that just not a strong point of that class? The class can't perform what so ever in endless but everyone is okay with that?

[west verge]

also has less ward than another class with higher base stats that can do the same build

[polar sentinel]

I feel like a lot of classes just go "lets nerf ss to the ground", we wont care anyway since we have reliable other skills to choose from

[west verge]

this thread does look more like lets just remove the class entirely from the game because it impacts me negatively rather than looking at just SS

[sly geode]

Im not worried about complete balance

But the argument that SS3 is underwhelming after this nerf is nonsense, that's all 😅

[gritty plinth]

This is a beoh problem

[hazy comet]

This is exactly what im trying to protect gilga from (unless ss3 is removed for good, and something new replaces it)

[pseudo sonnet]

We need a pvp vs pve adjustment. I don't care what SS/Gilgas do in their homes pve but don't come do it in my lawn to me.

[west verge]

hmm not sure tbh. losing 50% damage after full buffs for raiding is hard to swallow

[languid yoke]

SS4 time baby

[west verge]

im not sure this thread is going to become, Odie designs a brand new skill for gilga

hoping for a replacement is likely not productive

[gritty plinth]

I agree we should not nuke ss and give gilgas nothing else. I'm content with making ss moderate instead of the current (live) insane state

[west verge]

right, i very much prefer to just split the damage. plenty of people dont care about pve performance outside of CS dominance in all horde content

different people in this thread are focusing on different content categories

[gritty plinth]

But ss should not deal more damage than everyone else. Ss should not even deal as much damage as everyone else.

SS should deal less damage than everyone else because SS builds inherently have more ward than everyone else

[sly geode]

If I, as a realmshifter, have to use chained and spiked shield as the only reliable way to clear the new anguish 2.0 content, that's a problem

I dont care what the solution is, buff stuff, nerf stuff, whatever

Im not spamming chained shield for another year

[west verge]

that is a question of : is this a CS problem, or a realm problem

it can be both

[gritty plinth]

It is not both

It is a CS problem

[west verge]

Cs can be tuned back and you will have the same issues

[sly geode]

If its also true for diety, beo, summoner, and heretic, its probably a CS problem lol

[gritty plinth]

Oh sorry - for anguish 2.0 it may be both 😂

[west verge]

that said thief is well...in a bit of neglect and I havent seen any 'balance' discussions around it, particularly for performance in ang2.0

but thats prob for a diff thread

[versed grove]

might be nerfed a bit but otherwise , same as gilga with ss3 in raids, what's GS in raid, just a bad heretic with no pet?

[gritty plinth]

Losing 50% of spiked shield is hard to swallow? It still deals too much damage tbh

[sly geode]

For sure, but id also be very naive to expect realm to get a meaningful performance buff this calendar year. Hence, nerf it more.

[versed grove]

where is the pet buffing you more on top of your own self buffs

[echo bone]

I can't see this being the fact with the new changes to ang2.0 today

[restive fiber]

Dorado is getting some niche benefits, I heard

Some new Dex gear, etc.

[west verge]

i am being perhaps more measured than I should be but what sort of damage would you like to see?

[restive fiber]

Corvus and Base are still languishing

[sly geode]

Ymir feathers and gandring both get me killed the second I get even a little bit of bad RNG

And if im not using those, there is no reason to not use CS

[gritty plinth]

As a rule of thumb, ss should deal less damage than classes focusing on other types of damage. SS is a skill based on a survivability stat

[west verge]

thats not how orna is designed currently

this is your perception of ward

[sly geode]

Sitting behind 450k+ ward and dealing more damage than other options makes it really hard to justify anything else

[gritty plinth]

You mean from a pvp perspective and the current meta, ward doesn't matter beyond 50% hp?

[west verge]

ward numbers are only this high because they are multiplicative

gilga's design is to use ward for damage

its class passive is based around this as well

orna does not have traditional class roles

there is no actual tank class

we all use the same defensive buffs

[gritty plinth]

That doesn't mean ss should be its highest damage source by default

[west verge]

im not saying we should not nerf SS, i am saying be careful about how you apply your own perceptions to the class

[versed grove]

ensseric what got fixed more or less is a good portion of the quadratic damage you dealt

at al 50 you would see basically no difference

[gritty plinth]

It's not really perception to say 500kward and 3mil hits are out of line with other options. And I agree it's not inherently a gilga issue

[versed grove]

it's just that the skill wasn't designed for high al existing or being achievable

at al 30 or 50 you wouldn't deal more than the best offensive skill while having the highest ward achievable at that al

[gritty plinth]

But I think gilga needs a different damage source if we are bringing ss down. We can't have ss dealing the same damage as everyone else while still having half a million ward

[versed grove]

so it's not "the skill", it's the interaction with al

[west verge]

this is the assumption I am asking you to question

[gritty plinth]

But it isn't an assumption

[versed grove]

taking bp aside

[signal heron]

The entire purpose of the skill "Spiked Shield 3" is being Gilga's highest damage source

[west verge]

"doesnt mean it should be its highest damage source by default" is an assumption

[versed grove]

SS3 is the best turn 1 source of damage for ALL CLASSES at a given AL, depending on the class and gear

[gritty plinth]

Are you saying ss is not gilga's highest damage source

[versed grove]

but it's the best source of damage for heretic as well lol, just at a higher AL threshold

[west verge]

read your own sentence. you are stating that SS3 doesn't have to be gilga's highest damage source by default.

[gritty plinth]

Correct

[west verge]

what would you like to replace it with?

[versed grove]

att based skills

rend or US

[gritty plinth]

Literally anything that isn't tied to ward

[versed grove]

or you raid safe and slow

[signal heron]

Safe and slow has never been Gilga's raiding identity

It may be what you expect from a "tank" class in an RPG, but that has never been Gilga

[gritty plinth]

Gilga may not be a ""tank"" class in the traditional sense but it is a ward class. And ward is tankiness in Orna

[versed grove]

it's not about identity it's about necessity: safety and speed have to find a tradeoff, for all classes

imagine ultima 2h was MORE DAMAGE than sequencer

100% of people would play 2h, more ward more damage...

[west verge]

so, are 100% of people raiding and playing SS3 gilga today?

[trim ruin]

Only people that want to HoC for efficiency. Class choice has a large aesthetic component.

[west verge]

very true. but nerfs and class parity appear to have an aesthetic component as well

[trim ruin]

How do you mean? An SS nerf isn't even particularly a gilga nerf, aside from the (admittedly longstanding) belief that gilga can do nothing other than SS.

[gritty plinth]

The question I have for gilgas is: how do we justify investing virtually all your stats into ward and hp, and maintaining the same or higher damage as other classes that must directly invest into damage stats?

[west verge]

gilga is a tank that isnt a tank but is once because of multiplicative ward scale. it doesnt fit into people's models from other rpgs and what they want from class balance

i also think back when ward recovery was not so accessible raiding was ...different

you could still hit a damage cap. but without access to stonewarg or prom feet you would be forced to recover ward

[gritty plinth]

And this isn't bashing gilgas, it's just easy to say gilga as the de facto SS class

[late oracle]

Few points:

1. in a game where you are playing solo 90% of the time, damage/speed is king. You can't say this class is 50% tankier so it should be 50% slower. Its not an even trade off. At some point X% slower than other classes means the class cannot keep up for progression. I'm not saying this is the case now, but something to keep in mind.

2. The notion of a tank also implies, in my mind, some utility. Gilga does not have that, again largely due to the single player aspect, so I would see it more as a juggernaut than a true tank, just semantics really, but realize that damage is often used to make up for lack of utility on off-tank classes in other RPGs.

3. I undertand a lot of this reduction is due to the existence of quadratic scaling. That does not mean that in a world where it is fully removed the class is now fully acceptable. I think an increase of some non-quadratic type is acceptable to help performance.

[gritty plinth]

For point 1 - the tradeoff must exist somehow, somewhere. IMO ss should be a slower tool since it increases with survivability; gilgas should therefore have options to decrease their survivability and increase their speed

[young river]

Though it will doubtless get lost in the scroll. Gilgamesh class design is not based around being the tank

It's based around being the class that best utilizes it's ward

[gritty plinth]

Every other class and skill trades off survivability for damage

Maybe not beo

[young river]

SS by it's very nature uses your 'defense' for offense. Oops, my brain is fried (edit)

[trim ruin]

I was looking back through some old posts. Searched other than SS 😆

2021, I think this was during the crit SS nerf...? Anyway back then I said: https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/905399265784913960/925234748513742889

the salient point is that gilga can do things other than SS.

I remember it was a big topic for a long time, and it never went anywhere. Nobody wanted to put in brainstorming effort, people were happy with the class just doing its one spiked-shield thing. Celestials were added and GUrsa was intended to be the "wardless, non-SS gilga" and nowadays I see them using CS just like everyone else anyway. 😅

[west verge]

i do like this discussion. my only problem with trying to have this exact convo right now is I have no idea (guessing no) if Odie really wants to spend design time making a whole new thing for gilga

this isnt rework gilga patch its 'balance ss' time

[young river]

How many other skills consume your 'defense' when you use them?

[late oracle]

And an important part of 'uses your defense for offense' is that it 'spends your defense for offense' which also lowers your other stats.

[gritty plinth]

I'm content with this patch just nerfing ss as a stopgap

[trim ruin]

Blood Pact, arguably

[polar sentinel]

Shield Bash

[young river]

lol that's just gimp SS

[gritty plinth]

Every other class has to sacrifice defenses for damage

(Except maybe beo)

[young river]

You do realize SS3 consumes 30% of your ward when you use it, right?

Even if you miss

[gritty plinth]

Yeah, and ward recovery is very accessible to compensate

[late oracle]

(which also lowers gilgs stats, offense AND defense .)

[young river]

Sure but by doing so you sacrifice somethign else, like more damage

[trim ruin]

I'm pretty sure 70% of hundreds of thousands of ward is a lot more than 100% of the 15k ward I have when I build for maximum offense 😅

[gritty plinth]

It's very clearly not enough

[rain salmon]

15k is pretty generous

[trim ruin]

I'm ascended 😎

[young river]

Alright, but your skill is spammable, for continued damage while being able to keep your highest damage. I am not saying SS is perfectly fine, I am saying the highest defense and highest damage argument is just patently false

[gritty plinth]

It is verifiably true, actually

See any screenshot in the last hour

(Funny enough the last screenshot posted is of ultimastrikes)

[west verge]

ward, what ward

[trim ruin]

wish I had second chance 😭

[gritty plinth]

Man that must have just barely depleted your ward

[west verge]

I think I will leave this in Odie's capable hands now and see what nerfs do or dont get applied.

[gritty plinth]

I'll head out just saying that I love the gilga class - but I think it needs to have more viable options than spiked shield variants. IMO ss is flawed but maybe if you nerf it enough, the consumption aspect will actually be a serious drawback and the skill won't be the clear best choice for most content in the game

[young river]

From what I am seeing, the damage reduction on Beta for Gilga seems fairly significant

[gritty plinth]

I hope so! I am not sure if 50-60% is even enough to bring it in line

[late oracle]

The consumption aspect is a serious drawback which is why Gilga need to run amities and celestial augments to mitigate it.

[young river]

It's well below what I can do in a Realmstrikes build

[gritty plinth]

And if you overnerf it, gilga will be missing options

So idk

[hazy comet]

Bump

#1370141629444395028 message
Does this list still hold true ?

[young river]

Though I haven't tested it because of mirror issues I am reasonably sure I could not clear an Anguish 50 Horde dungeon on live with CS at these numbers

[manic bison]

Has there ever been an attempt at some sort of hybrid scaling from, let's say, attack to defense in the history of Orna?

[late oracle]

Historically, there was a point where spiked shield ONLY scaled off of ward, which allowed people to run pretty ridiculous only ward focused builds. The quadratic change to attack AND ward was actually a fix to that.

[manic bison]

Maybe gilgas could get a passive that makes them chase some other stat to get back some of the nerfed ward damage.

Though that only fixes 1 thing out of the list of problems.

[young river]

I think some of those have been addressed for certain

[signal heron]

It formerly scaled off only ward and crit 😆

The days of full superior Ashen Pinions and not a care in the world

[late oracle]

I think adding additional defense scaling to SS only makes the purported issue worse

[young river]

The glory days of you can't stop me with an m1 of 300

[trim ruin]

Yes, the current setup was actually a great change (making gilga and every class care about attack stat).
And it worked until people ascended past like A30 where quadratic effects started to really take off 😅

[manic bison]

Yeah, I look at it more as make them want attack and make the attack hybrid scale defense and maybe some ward damage separately

[trim ruin]

To a lesser extent, the addition of selene hands also broke it, because then you could get a mega-attack-stat weapon that also came with ward (celaxe).

[junior imp]

I'll be trying to get through those soonish, like today

[languid yoke]

Thanks Dangy

[mint holly]

How about a straight PvP nerf?

[trim ruin]

it's not a straight pvp problem

[mint holly]

Yeah. I was about to say. Dungeons and anguish

It would still be ridiculously strong there

[late oracle]

Honestly thought the fixed miss rate removal was a good PvP nerf, but actually served as more of a buff for anguish.

[polar sentinel]

pvp nerf + scaling worse on higher anguish levels?

[pseudo sonnet]

With the fixed miss rate removal there needs to be no ranger or hoaming shield. When you hit like a truck there needs to be some counter play like dodging it.

[polar sentinel]

there's currently no homing shield

[late oracle]

I think ranger is just a bad idea overall

[pseudo sonnet]

^ said by gilga mains that says something.

[mint holly]

Same. I can get enough accuracy on heretic to hit very well.

[late oracle]

I'll advocate for my class but I try to be somewhat objective for balance. If you look I've come out in favor of crit options and against ranger a number of times

[mint holly]

I do understand the idea behind ranger. But even at 10% accuracy it would be fine. Maybe 10% + a bit of dex if the 10 is too low

[pseudo sonnet]

needs counter play like not a ton of m1, or it misses

[fringe mirage]

I'm not caught up but in regards to raiding

[mint holly]

I would say that the m1 nerf would be worse.

[fringe mirage]

Gilga is still the better anguish raider lol

Safe as hell vs glass cannoning

[late oracle]

Not sure what heretic is feeling like but Gilga feels like its running into decent penetration issues at high Ang.

[sly geode]

Another point (and this has been brought up in polls, so there may be a solution in the works already)

But there are entire anguish levels that dont affect spiked shield ~at all

Level 16 is a freebie for spiked shield

[fringe mirage]

Not a built into full blown ultima, but a turn 1 dual cast at 173 AL

With buffs at 173 al

That's on base. Someone else can put the ara numbers up. I can't ara raid 😅 I don't ever get the numbers there that I see others doing lol

The amity is 40% crit 30% dragon BTW

[pseudo sonnet]

m1 is just penetration so maybe it can be tanked in PVP.
There needs to be a counter play either it misses or it cant hit so hard and have the user be so tanky.
At the end of the day it is impossible to balance it for both PVP and PVE so its going to need the ultima treatment.

[hazy comet]

^ agree with that last part

[west verge]

I would be content with splitting it, and then giving better options to players to deal with difficult content outside of just ward and CS

I also wish we could go back to AL scaling nerf to ward

[hazy comet]

But even in pve as bwubble said, if im realmD and still spamming CS in all content, then this isn't a successful balance

[west verge]

But that seems off the table

[fringe mirage]

I think splitting between the two is a real pita. It was what I suggested for rend and agree it would be better if it could be done for ss too

I think the way its written into ward scaling may make it impossible for ss? Odie already said it can only be curved, not fixed without changing the ward calc

Maybe he'll chime in and let us know lol

[hazy comet]

Al 49 in my normal dungeon anguish setup. What anguish level might this correspond to from an enemy HP standpoint? Is anyone deep into melancholy?

If this isnt going to be the meta id be shocked

[silent cloud]

5 digit damage is enough for spiked shield and chained shield in pvp.

Its what BP does
It's more than ASG

[pseudo sonnet]

Is rend epee actually used in PVE lol. Rends epee's not hitting very high now a days.

[signal heron]

There are literally four skills named rend

Epee isn't really used in PvE except for some niche depth endless builds
Daggers is one of the better raiding skills

(And the other two also exist)

[fringe mirage]

I saw an argument for it in endless, like knight said. A lot of ppl said they used it to hit 1m+ on zerks 🤷‍♂️

I have never done it nor do I really care if you're using it in endless for that purpose lol

[sly geode]

Anguish 40 towers
Floor 21, dragon fight
Shackles are set to 113 but im only AL 100 here

I can reasonably clear everything except immo lords (100% RNG) and Odin/Baldr fights get dicey because the northern mobs punch for 100k+

Only manageable at all because of how chained/spiked shield currently function.

And after a fair bit of testing today, the damage nerf that went out hasn't really affected this strategy at all

Oh, and this is without the anguish gear passives that will give me more ward regen, making CS/SS even stronger

[fringe mirage]

If it's going to have a fixed miss chance it should be 10% to match the other fixed miss chance spells. Still shouldn't if the results are showing it's still the top performer imo

[onyx tulip]

Has anyone with a Mid AL (50ish) tested the nerf to see if its worse for them?

[signal heron]

S2 has and has shown the SS works great for him still

[onyx tulip]

ok was about to try when I realized I am only 32 in beta

and I don't have a spiked shield yet sadly 😄

[signal heron]

#1370141629444395028 message

[onyx tulip]

Thanks Knight, so much talk in here I scrolled past that one

[signal heron]

Or this is a better representation for PvP #1370141629444395028 message

[haughty turtle]

Okay, sorry to circle back to this but i really think the fixed miss chance has to go. The skill still hits for a lot given the protection ward builds provide, but now we’re back to not being able to invest in dex to play around it. The other meta skills that have a fixed miss (RS2 and Chakram) come at the expense of having to build a lot into damage, so they at least have some downside

[onyx tulip]

I just want to point out Anguish 40 Floor 21 and this was the reward for a 1:20 fight?

[signal heron]

Congrats

[onyx tulip]

That was Bwubble not me lol

[polar sentinel]

tower shards bonus being bugged has been reported before i think

[sly geode]

There wasnt a bug report in the open beta thread but I just made one

[onyx tulip]

I am going to stop assuming a bug report has been made, that's really bitten us this beta

[pseudo sonnet]

You are a Gilgamesh also right now correct?

[haughty turtle]

Yup

[versed grove]

ok Just to clarify where I stand (and where i think most people I talk with stand) if my gameplay ever had to include a sequence like this I would rage disinstall the game and probably throw away my cellphone as well as cursed for good, and never again even think of playing this game. even watching this was more painful that going to Ikea with the wife to buy furniture.

[mint holly]

I would have never even had a chance

No matter what I did

[fringe mirage]

More ALs 😂 heretics best survival tool

[west verge]

just get a dangys laptop.

and 300 refineries

are we winning yet

[fringe mirage]

I have two carbon copies at 142% 🫠 . Can't beat the 200% arisen shield yet

[west verge]

few days. wish you the best of luck (serious sentiment). but make sure it gets nerfed more first (unserious joke)

[fringe mirage]

Ironically they both came from last years raids. I was wondering if it was bugged to get two exactly the same

[west verge]

had to add some more context just in case it was too abrasive

wild rng

[fringe mirage]

Yeah I was a little bummed haha. Oh well. We shall see in a week

[west verge]

beguiled Y raid has given me 6 quarterstaffs

double 200% laptops

[fringe mirage]

Oof lol. It's giving me axes and lutes

[west verge]

now you can shitpost in twice as many beta threads

[west verge]

the red feels good though

[fringe mirage]

Yeah, that was a nice drop to get two in one

Maybe I need to go back to gilga with the nice axes it has given me

[haughty turtle]

As soon as you swap to gilga you’ll start getting mage gear

[fringe mirage]

That's how it goes haha

[haughty turtle]

My first event item after HoCing from realm was a 200% Cowl Y

[restive phoenix]

@swift lava

[swift lava]

?

[swift lava]

Oh um posted this in the regular balance changes but it might fit better here. On Selene hands, why don’t we give them negative ward (-5%) leave the pet act rate unaffected and change it to a 12 hybrid damage? That way it’s still usable for other classes, but gets rid of the huge spiked shield numbers.

[signal heron]

Selene hands aren't why spiked shield is OP, and spiked shield isn't why Selene hands are OP

[visual crescent]

Just hoc to gs

Seem like out topic but same issue quad scaling

I think op in pve

[swift lava]

Ok so then this might be the wrong channel for this, but at the current state, what’s the point of using Selene hands when there are arms for marginally lower attack and magic and way more pet act/stats?

[visual crescent]

My 1st turn dmg al 168

Beoh with al 244, is just only do as 3m5 with ss3 for comparison, and not min max my gs yet too

[signal heron]

When you need maximum damage in a build and aren't on a class that's already hybrid

[visual crescent]

So in theory gs will outperform with bp

[signal heron]

Arms are much less usable on Realmshifter and Heretic

[visual crescent]

As same al if double cast

And dont have any relate in use for selene hands as well so

I think a real gs just enter the chat lol, let have john thought in this topic

[snow spindle]

In single-opponent fights. In pve. While being squishy.

As opposed to SS which does it anywhere everywhere while tanky.

BP will hurt more, sure, but it has drawbacks lol

There's a reason it isn't a prominant skill right now

[visual crescent]

I got amity 30 sumstats+10% dmg at full hp so just test it yeah

Tbh ss3 gain more benefit from amity than bp

With ele and hybrid

[swift lava]

So 65 attack and magic is worth -10% follower stats and -5% act rate?

[signal heron]

65 * ascensions * 1.1

[snow spindle]

(Plus if you're taking one you're taking five)

[signal heron]

Before ascensions factor in, the difference is ~360 attack/magic

That is huge

With 76 ascension (what I have) the difference is 629 attack/magic

[swift lava]

IMO 629 to have a pet that actually does something is easily worth it, guess that’s just difference in opinion then idk 🤷‍♂️

[signal heron]

Tbh I do think Arms should have some kind of malus too

[swift lava]

Dang so I’m guessing you’re for crit getting nerfed too then?

[signal heron]

I'm primarily for Prom hands getting nerfed, but the full additive crit change wasn't a bad way to do it

Going full additive for crit and elemental damage makes things easier to balance in the future

[swift lava]

Didn’t that get reverted though?

[signal heron]

Yeah that's why I said it in the past tense

It's not neccessarily permanently reverted, but Odie doesn't want to change everything at once. I kind of disagree and I think nerfing everything at once makes sense but he says he has numbers that show that probably wouldn't go over as well

[swift lava]

Yeah it probably wouldn’t, I still think that follower act and the hybrid bonus to 10 is rough though, probably just gonna switch to the arms 😅

[pseudo sonnet]

#1370141629444395028 message

I disagree. I think this is a bit wild—SS doing 130% more damage with Selene hands really pushes things over the edge. Hybrid damage definitely breaks the balance for SS and gives them to much m1. If Selene hands didn’t interact with SS the way they do, that alone would go a long way toward fixing things.

Honestly, critting with Prom hands vs Selene hands feels way more balanced by comparison.

[echo bone]

Prom hands will now always result in more DMG than Selene hands if you're critting

Even before any changes I still opted for prom hands because of multipliers

[rain salmon]

What are your stats, though

The damage might be similar, but that’s while being ultra squishy yourself

[visual crescent]

For pve it is 1 or 2 turns so np

Batallions too

Could use fey menja battle robe if want endurance now with hera robe

[rain salmon]

It can easily miss, though, given the trash dex on base GS and the fact that BP doesn’t have a fixed miss rate unlike SS, CS and so

[west verge]

spiked shield is busted because of refineries which allow you to take advantage of quadratic scaling ||this is a joke||

[gritty plinth]

It's refineries all the way down

[trim ruin]

Unironically... 😶‍🌫️

This conversation at least would be happening in a few years from now instead of being late now.

For next April Fool's, I'm requesting a refinery raid boss for players to take their anger out on.

[onyx tulip]

Oh that would be awesome

Carl's Refinery

Or The Fool's Refinery

[late oracle]

A lot of us just use waygate for mats, just make the waygate 6 refinery bosses

[gritty plinth]

A new Terra Day raid boss that is a giant punching bag for mats... comes back around in waygates

[restive fiber]

Make it drop everything in the Materials category. You'll get some cort, some wood, some darkstone...

[haughty turtle]

131 AL Gursa with 6k attack

[languid yoke]

[restive fiber]

Level 250 Warrior

[hazy comet]

Thanks for the data here - we are also running a bunch of tests

[restive fiber]

The real endgame

[hazy comet]

49 AL RealmD 2 diff builds

[languid yoke]

[hazy comet]

Probably over nerfed. Be on the lookout for more tweaks

[languid yoke]

Yeah seems a bit too low now lol

[broken bough]

you'll have an entertaining beta and you'll like it

[languid yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/are-you-not-entertained-matty-matheson-cookin'-somethin'-taco-bell's-crunchwrap-supreme-are-you-not-amused-gif-994310608664385794

[sterile crescent]

man now I'm tempted to request a second mirror

[haughty turtle]

@sly geode just went from clearing Ang40 towers to probably not clearing Ang10

[languid yoke]

nah just switch to dursa

[pseudo sonnet]

@west verge let's see some numbers now with and without Selene hands. I'm really close to hopefully getting into the beta

[west verge]

you want me to do beta work when there are amities to hunt

ill trade SS data for protect/parapet amity

[sterile crescent]

This is good actually 👍 /s

if y'all care about a low AL experience lol

[half karma]

Patch notes:
Skill dmg is dynamic (changes according to discord posts asking for nerf)

[languid yoke]

O god

[manic bison]

Me trying to ask for towerfall not to just get 55% nerfed and seeing this:

https://tenor.com/view/side-eye-dog-worried-scared-look-gif-23041456

[broken bough]

should be better now

[restive fiber]

Fast service!

[manic bison]

"80% nerf was a bit too far, so we just removed SS3 instead"

Seriously though, this is definitely entertaining watching from the outside in.

[sterile crescent]

need time for client to catch up or skill issue?

[restive fiber]

https://tenor.com/view/hello-it-have-you-tried-turning-it-off-and-on-again-telephone-on-call-gif-15495555

[manic bison]

You do more damage when the sprite's head is rotating about the top. Skill issue.

[sterile crescent]

or just heavily nerfed off-class and working as intended?

[sterile crescent]

ahhhh I see I see, my bad

[manic bison]

What class are you using that in btw?

Oh disregard, looking at pictures a little bit above is hard for Beos.

[sly geode]

I've concluded i have no idea how atk stat currently affects the damage, doesn't make sense to my testing

[sterile crescent]

it's ok I get it lol, beoh no brain solidarity

[manic bison]

The follower has the brain, I just buff.

[sterile crescent]

no one has the brain over here, the only button on screen is verse 4

monkey see verse 4, monkey press

[visual crescent]

If for pve bpact will be king in ang 2.0

Insane m1 yeah but our focus now is ss

[west verge]

damage looks about right @pseudo sonnet

[sly geode]

LOL

[sterile crescent]

ouch

[sly geode]

Never thought id say it, but maybe a bit too much

[pseudo sonnet]

Looks good to me ship it

[languid yoke]

9k attk and 428k ward

[west verge]

With Selene hands

Looks good guys ship it

[sterile crescent]

only gained like 10k dmg after 140 more ALs sounds like quadratic scaling is fixed NODDERS

[languid yoke]

ship it 🗣️

[pseudo sonnet]

It's called penitence for all the dirty shit you did the last few years 😂

[west verge]

exists

deserves to get annihilated

[languid yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/trailer-park-boys-the-way-she-goes-oh-well-gif-14173918

[west verge]

https://tenor.com/view/kaboom-boom-nuke-nuclear-bomb-gif-20734003

[visual crescent]

Really?

Quad scaling isnt not only ss

It is 2nd turn minimal buff turn pretty sure can kill most raid with 20-30 more al

[broken bough]

i believe you may be replying to a joke

[sterile crescent]

yes

[west verge]

🎉

(yes i know Odie probably slapped new changes ontop of old one before removing it but I am here for memes)

[half karma]

Mom come pick me up im scared

Do we know when ward stops contributing to the formula? 🤔

[half karma]

Thats just a nice way of saying "odie pls explen"

[echo bone]

Atk definitely matters a lot more

[broken bough]

issue should be fixed now

[onyx bear]

Much more reasonable now ty lol

[fringe mirage]

Ship the unfixed fix for pvp 😂

[west verge]

SS was removed from the game right?

removing lines of code is always better

[echo bone]

Axe Dmg

Lute Dmg

Compared to Live

[fringe mirage]

Are we saying selene hands need a bigger nerf

[echo bone]

[sterile crescent]

-100% pet act so the only thing pet does for beoh is temu second chance /s

[onyx tulip]

lol Temu 2nd chance

I love that

[sterile crescent]

imma have to test how much more Suffering™️ beoh endless will have with reduced phoenix dc procs lol

[sly geode]

Nerf ward regen and we should be good to go

[unborn spruce]

Just make Spiked Shield and CS gilga only spell and we are good to go

🧖‍♂️

Then ultima deity only

All good

[onyx tulip]

Don't forget Followers Valhallen Only

[unborn spruce]

Only the best pet can be for Beowulf ! Kektus!

Praise the king of tus

[onyx tulip]

ngl some Valhallen exclusive pets wouldn't be the worst idea

not just level 3 BB

[languid yoke]

double barrel cactus

https://tenor.com/view/a10warthog-plane-brr-gif-27117334

[onyx tulip]

kek

[unborn spruce]

You know guys it would be probably easier to change the m1 or pen of other spells to make them competitive or give more AoE than trying to nerf some that are working and the only ones that we can actually use 😂😂😂 just saying

We’ve got basically hundreds of spells at this point and use maybe 5 of them for attack purpose

I thought the 2h revamp was a very good example of that… people were so happy to have more aoe choice

[onyx tulip]

Yeah but the candle analogy

Cutting 1 candle easier than adding wax to a bunch of others and stuff

Don't make Odie have to wax philosophical on us again 😄

[unborn spruce]

🤣🤣

Im just saying that there’s so much potential out there that he has prepped already

That’s kinda annoying to always use the exact same spells and pets… especially across ALL classes… I play my deity the exact same way I played my gilga

And I use kinda the same gear for my Beowulf too

🤪🤪🤪

[onyx tulip]

I tried to advocate for not nerfing and raising others kind of like the whole Kingpin "A rising tide raises all ships" kind of approach

[signal heron]

Anguish 2.0 just happens to mesh very poorly with AoE on 2h weapons lol

[unborn spruce]

Too soon Knight, too soon 🤣🤣

I wasn’t ready

[signal heron]

• Crit damage maluses
• Crit chance maluses
• 2H weapon power maluses

[onyx tulip]

It needed to be 50% better and last for at least a year

I still haven't gotten my swansong 😦

[unborn spruce]

Im so happy i never got a swansong because I wouldn’t have had a reason to complain otherwise (as it may be the only viable one in anguish now I bet ??)

[onyx tulip]

100% skill issue I know

[unborn spruce]

Same ahah

[west verge]

@signal heron assume Y and regular have similar stats

[signal heron]

I have no idea

[west verge]

I mean for sake of comparison

Interestingly if the internal limit for ward contribution is fixed then pieces like FSC don’t have as much value at high AL and swash becomes better for pushing damage.

[onyx tulip]

Neat so all I need is a bunch of time locked gear at the highest levels of ornate + whatever you AL is to do that

oh sorry the 2nd pic loaded

so only 166 AL

[west verge]

Idk what it looks like for earlier Gilga up to the limit on live vs beta rn

I’ll try on beoh/maybe diety later to see how it plays

With 2 zerks I can just barely scratch dmg limit

[hazy comet]

Which in a sense is how it should be

[pseudo sonnet]

How much over the dmg limit do you need to hit for a turn 1 skill with that much tank and ward?

[hazy comet]

You scale damage with attack instead of ward

I think the ward cap was just to keep people happy that you still have to care about ward

[west verge]

I’m just showing examples

[hazy comet]

Even though a 100k cap is achievable no matter what as long as you have a shield on

@west verge what are you able to hit on Turn 1 with CS, and how does that compare to other options (Slice / Envy / HS3) if you are able to test

Can just be on cactus no prob

Just wondering if balance is achieved or not / needs more tweaking etc

[west verge]

The cap for ward contribution to damage is 100k?

Live / beta

[restive fiber]

A reduction of almost precisely one-third from live to beta (assuming the 175k in the second shot is the actual hit, and the 70k is CD)

[half karma]

Jesus fkin christ that makes me sad, your dmg on beta is my dmg on live. I just know im gonna hate it when this goes live

After all now attack will contribute more to the dmg. BeoH will still be able to stack dmg. My understanding is that gilga gets hit the worst in this fix

Well i hope we get some form of CD buff because this is disheartening

:/

[sly geode]

This is one of those things where:

• If Beo is now a better user is chained/spiked shield across content
• and this has been tested in a controlled environment
• then people need to show up in this thread, present the evidence, and talk about it

I dont think anybody wants non gilga to be the best user of the gilga skill, but there is a suspicious lack of tangible data in this thread

(Not pointed at you, sorry if it came across that way)

[signal heron]

Odie said he might be tweaking non-gilga vs gilga scaling with SS

[sly geode]

We just really, really need more actual testing in these threads

[sterile crescent]

I can provide beoh ss/cs but I'm low AL

[onyx tulip]

I definetly wouldn't want Gilga Skills to be better with non gilgas like Ultima or Ultima Strikes for Deities

[half karma]

Youre right, i hope thats just me getting ahead of myself. Its still early. This just makes me fear for my character ive been building for the last few years

[onyx tulip]

And I am not being sarcastic there

[sterile crescent]

I will say whatever change got settled on seems to be performing quite well on beoh

[onyx tulip]

erm none of those are loading for me

is it a me problem?

[restive fiber]

Discord doing a dumb?

[onyx tulip]

Thats all I see

[signal heron]

Discord problem

[restive fiber]

None of them are showing for me

[half karma]

...since we're actively lowering our attack stat with bristles to get CD. If attack is more relevant than ward, this tradeoff is doubly harsh

[sterile crescent]

bruh

ok

in summary

damage ranging 80k to 100k unbuffed t1 against cactus and conq NPCs

[onyx tulip]

I would argue that its a fair trade off - similar to crit builds that lose attack thanks to pinions etc

Is that with full ward?

Or full unbuffed at 50% ward and just 1 hit?

Seems a little low

[sterile crescent]

setup is celeaxe full selene hands, random placeholder riftrogue helmet that still has pinions kekw, fsc, pumpkinless pants, high legendary sgs, hybrid offense + 15% hybrid amity

oh it's beoh not gilgh

[half karma]

But getting +CD dmg is super hard. We'd be pretty much giving up dmg to get +40% dmg, maybe 50 if we REALLY want to

[onyx tulip]

ooooh ok, still seems a bit low

[sterile crescent]

you're talking to someone with a massive skill issue lmao

fwiw I think it outdamages my verse4

[onyx tulip]

What is your ward?

may have missed that

[sterile crescent]

actually maybe not if double crit amity

[onyx tulip]

and assume 0 al?

[sterile crescent]

210k

24AL

it's my old beoh mirror

[onyx tulip]

Maybe sirith can test and tell us

[hazy comet]

49 AL realmd

[sterile crescent]

huh I have 30% dragon on this hybrid amity

do I have this on live?

how do I enchant the celeaxe, do I need a masterforge

I really Know What I'm Doing

[onyx tulip]

Discord still being dumb 😦

[sterile crescent]

yeah I see that too

ranging 115k - 130k average 122k after dragon enchantment

[onyx tulip]

Celestials can't (or shouldn't be able to be anguished

[sterile crescent]

again t1 unbuffed

on cactus

not surprising, lines up with 30% dragon on the amity

[subtle helm]

So, if the non Gilgamesh effectiveness is the issue with the Ward skills currently, I would like to know how other classes are dealing with high Anguish without using SS/CS.

[sterile crescent]

s2's over there casually tripling my damage on actual enemies kek

ahh noooo my trev staff and swansong are both un-upgraded on beta

rip horde

[onyx tulip]

are they MF?

We just tested and unless something changes from 2 hours ago I made a broken weapon Anguished

[sterile crescent]

my trev staff is level 8, swansong is level 1 kek

[onyx tulip]

you don't have the free Aaru anvils?

may have to ask Dangy if he can do another free code for 50 anvils

[sterile crescent]

there were free anvils? I only have 3 from one of the archpaths

[onyx tulip]

well use them in the beta on that trev 😛

yeah Dangy gave a code for 50

[sterile crescent]

damn

[onyx tulip]

in beta only of course

Maybe a kind ORN person could ask them for new codes

[sterile crescent]

I thought trev fell off severely in high anguish due to pen

although I'm al24 I'm not exactly a contender for high anguish

[onyx tulip]

I don't have a trev to even check the pen on it

[fringe mirage]

With your CD this hits the exact same as I do as 173 al heretic with 1 turn ultima. Only I have t.mag^^^, T.all^^^, snotra, mag^^.

[onyx tulip]

I think the only 1 turn unbuffed higher is maybe BP

on GSH

[fringe mirage]

Oh and I use a 40% crit 30% dragon amity

Ss still looks solid but I need to read beyond that which i can do in like 5 mins from now

[sterile crescent]

noooo it couldn't be on live?

(ik beta ornate rate is mega boosted)

[onyx tulip]

I have a 200 on Live 😄

but I have 0 Spiked Shield

[sterile crescent]

I have a 200...
...
...
fallen shield

my sgs is 163-165 idk which exactly, it's not that amazing

[graceful moon]

So how does the current ward cap look like for ss3? Just throwing it out there but i’d love to see only scaling on ward. And other classes having a buff on dealing with ward then just limiting ss.

Also thank you NF team for keeping channelanus 1 turn.

[hazy comet]

Only scaling on ward is super problematic. You get harder to kill as you gain damage

[sterile crescent]

only scaling on ward sounds like a prom feet disaster

[graceful moon]

I totaly understand your pov, agree to a certain degree.

On pvp stand point, as dUrsa BoF i kinda go for ward dmg first so opponent has no chance killing me unless there is a huge AL gap. Which works most of the time. On defense we kinda have counter measures. Counterattack/ second chance/ paraphet etc.

[hazy comet]

Those counter measures exist for everyone, including those who build massive ward and deal 200% of your eHP

[outer ore]

Maybe I'm late to this, but this situation kinda reminds me of how the GSH passive works. At 0 AL, it gives a 2x stat boost, but at 100 AL, it gives 1.5x.

Its formula is something like this: (2 + AL/100) ÷ (1 + AL/100).
(Sorry for the poor format; I don't use Discord much.)

Iirc, Gilga gets a 1.5x increase when using SS/CS. You could change that to 1x, and with the formula, you'd get 2x at 0 AL and 1.5x at 100 AL.

Other classes could get 0.5x, so 1x (normal damage) at 0 AL, but 0.75x at 100 AL.

A change in numbers will be needed, but this idea fits the situation without reducing player ward or a hard cap.

[snow spindle]

Fwiw that's not how just GSH passive works. That's how every stat passive in the game works.
Redline works that way. As does blueline.
As does bastille.

[signal heron]

And the DAra passive

[outer ore]

Oh thanks for correction, I havent touched anything else besides beoh for months

[signal heron]

You can simplify the passives by thinking of it as:

(1+ (AL/100) + P) * Stats

Where "P" is the passive %

My understanding is that 100% passive is the same as adding 100 ALs to your character, effectively.

(Without the ward/HP/mana benefits)

[young river]

Gilga gets full value from the amount of ward expended when using the skill applied to the skills M2. All other classes get half value from ward consumed.

Though there may be a bit of a variation in the formula so it's not an exact 1/1 ratio or 1/.5 ratio as the case may be.

[outer ore]

So if u apply it to the skill, could it work, in your opinions

[signal heron]

Here are the formulas for SS3:

Gilga: 
M2 = (Current Ward*0.3)/5000

Everyone else:
M2 = (Current Ward*0.3)/10000

[young river]

There's no variation built into it then?

[hazy comet]

Interesting so basically gilga at 50% ward hits same as others 100% ward all other things considered equal

[signal heron]

Right

[hazy comet]

Turn 1 damage being equal aside from other base stats or hybrid abilities

[signal heron]

It wouldn't surprise me if it was designed that way partially with turn 1 damage in mind

[pseudo sonnet]

Why can other classes use SS. That would make balance easier

[half karma]

Agreed here, but in that case other classes should have access to some exclusive skills (which would be super nice)

[signal heron]

Why can other classes use SS
https://playorna.com/releases/75/

Not the answer you were looking for, but the answer 😆

[gritty plinth]

Heretics have flasks, deities have apex skills

Those are exclusive

[signal heron]

Realmshifters have sadness

[gritty plinth]

You have the skill of not dying to some status effects

👍

[signal heron]

Oh believe me, we die a lot to status effects

But we can't die to berserks

[gritty plinth]

Fixed

[half karma]

I see those as exclusive mechanics, not exactly skills (but i see your point, just dont fully agree)

[gritty plinth]

Yeah they are mechanics but they are also skills to be used in battle

[half karma]

Yes, hence why i dont fully agree 😬

[gritty plinth]

Feels like ss could be something that goes that way

[pseudo sonnet]

RS get avidity

[gritty plinth]

I don't really see why not

[signal heron]

This was about skills

[pseudo sonnet]

this #1370141629444395028 message

[signal heron]

I mean if we're just saying passives, Gilgas have Collateral Damage

That's why other classes can use SS, I guess?

[late oracle]

I've done some testing around and overall feel like the damage I'm outputting is too low for someone with my gear and AL.

Caveats: I do not know the threshold for ward so some optimization may be in order. Also this build was doubly affected by Selenes hands nerfs (but should be considered since this is a primary damage source for spiked shield)

In raiding my damage output is reduced by over 50%, it makes it slow to kill raids even without any anguish level. In anguish raids the problem is even worse as my damage is in the low hundred thousands. I think it could be stand to nudge back up a ton, with a gilga exclusive threshold bump this would fit the identity of gilga using their ward better than other classes.

Additional notes: I haven't tested but I think evident on its face that classes with more access to attack will benefit more from use of spiked shield (beoh, deity). This nerf also hits gilgh more than other gilga as their passive specifically buffs shields which seldom have attack.

I would support a damage increase and/or gilga and gilga h specific threshold bumps. I also think it could be interesting to differentiate the spiked shield variants a bit more.

[restive fiber]

Lmfao. Not on topic here but those notes contain a(n unqualified) line which is relevant to the discussion that was recently happening in #1295844979574440119:

The Sleep status effect is now removed upon receiving damage

[signal heron]

It was a massive update

It also did this, which was necessary but sad:

• Improvements to World monster seeding logic

Previously, world mobs were actually semi-permanent, like bosses.

[gritty plinth]

Fun

[signal heron]

When this change was made in March I had a Scary Skeleton from the Halloween event still chilling in my Origin town that I never killed just for the fun of it

[late oracle]

I think a lot of pvp sentiment is dripping over into this discussion. I really think the hit rate nerf was a good option as it allowed for dex gear options for both the gilga and the opponent. That being said, not have a fixed miss rate was a buff in the context of anguish, so hard to say how it should shake out in the context of this patch.

[versed grove]

btw in anguish raids i don't think the skill needs any nerfing, shackles does all the nerfing already making it almost unplayable

[signal heron]

For some transparency I do want to add that we have been having very large discussions on Spiked Shield in the ORN channel, and I've been working really hard in there to keep PvE and PvP seperate. PvP has issues, but nothing should be done that puts Gilgamesh in a bad place in PvE.

[late oracle]

Just a few anguish/party play options I considered, not sure they really move the needle that much but make the skills more interesting:
Ss1 could offer some defense down options, would save turn/pet economy by assisting dealing with tougher mobs. Traditionally ss1 is the armor pen option, but could open up combos as far as ss1 into ss3.
Ss2 could apply provoke to a mob to assist in party anguish content and allow gilga to actually do some tanking

[late oracle]

That's much appreciated. I don't want to touch on it too much but think with the fixed miss rate removed it could open up power budget in herc to have a much higher ward damage threshold. Particularly because herc already has the built in weakness to status

[pseudo sonnet]

I hope they remove the flat miss chance and make dex valuable to gilga's like it is on heretic and beoh. If not make it low m1 like all the other flat miss chance spells if they dont.

[late oracle]

Especially cause we just got cool new apollyon gear to use

[languid yoke]

new patch!

[late oracle]

Still feels very weak in raids imo. Additional strange pvp interaction, likely due to the ward capping, is that the effectiveness of ss1>3 is basically in reverse order.

[hazy comet]

@west verge what are you hitting in beta turn 1 with ss3 now in pvp?

I think it got a sizeable nerf in this patch for pvp

[hazy comet]

Absolutely agree with this

[late oracle]

For me turn 1 its like
Ss3- 100k
Ss2- 120k
Ss1- 140k

[half karma]

Maybe attack still heavily influences it. How much atk do you have here?

Because as BoF i dont see this pattern

[late oracle]

13000, might just be because I'm at the high end of ward, so I'm likely hitting the ward cap therefore the attack mod of ss1 is more effective

[half karma]

Aw shyte lol 13k thats way more than me

[late oracle]

15k live as build was doubly affected by Selene

[fringe mirage]

Ss1 should be the go to of any high AL gilga in pvp anyway with the higher m1 and fixed miss chance. If ss1 is now hitting substantially higher than ss3, that's a problem

But my ALs to gilga were lost somewhere so I can't test it 😆

[late oracle]

I'll just note that even in best case scenario Im doing like 25% of my live damage

[visual crescent]

.except beoa pet redline

It is multiple

[pseudo sonnet]

How much damage do you think you should be doing compared with an equal crit build that is a glass cannon in pvp and in pve?

[gritty plinth]

Can you share what that best case scenario is? Could it be built wrong since the calc relies less on ward now?

[late oracle]

This is a bit of a loaded question because it removes context other than tank vs glass cannon. If I can only get 100k hp then my ehp is maximum 200k. I do not think there is a single build at AL 187 built for damage that would struggle to hit my or other current ehp. If spiked shield is the only build not hitting that then it is just not effective as a build. I can't say oh ss should deal 70% of crit, it ignores too many factors. Which is why I think the dex option is good because it allows gearing options.

For pve, right now I can whip out a half baked ultimastrikes build and out damage my very high end ss gear. There is essentially 0 risk in either build.

[late oracle]

I can hit 130k with spiked shield1 if I use full Selenes hands, to maximize my attack and magic stat, a hybrid amity with hybrid bonus, full swash bonus from BoF, including an ornate Carl's ring and a godforged arisen ring.

Ss3 hits for around 100k with this build

[pseudo sonnet]

Just trying to judge what youll be happy with. Your ultima strikes build has zero risk compared to a SS build which is also zero risk in live? At high AL's I dont think any builds have risk vs raids imo

[gritty plinth]

We can't just look at t1 ehp because on offense, you get to immediately WoO if desired

So now your build is infinitely more resilient than non-ss builds

[young river]

Alright, done quite a bit of testing, let me post some of my results

PVE
Feels better, reduction is about midway between what it was yesterday and live. Probably a good compromise level , though eventually Ascension will probably break it again but it might be fine for another year or two.

PVP
latest iteration does totally nerf Defensive high ward build SS3 damage into the dirt though. However when Testing Attack heavy (10k) BoF builds with buffs I was able to easily get SS1 to about 200k well over SS3 damage of 135k ish on unarmored targets. Just for reference the lower attack (6600)/Cata builds SS1 consistently outperforms SS3 as well, with SS3 maxing at about 35k Turn 1 damage and SS1 coming in at around 50k max turn 1 damage on comparitively soft targets. There is very little growth in damage going from half ward to full ward and what little there was can be attributed to the stat boost from Bastille.

I also threw together some Gilga Ursa non SS attack builds and finally settled on a 17k Eastern Regalia attack build to some comparison with the big hitting skills. Mind you it was petless so it took an extra turn to use Mimic and Gunnr. Rend/Epee Crit was 300kish, HS 3 crit was 275k, Guarding Strikes 4 was 165k ish and Realmstrikes 2 crit was close to 400k all on what looked to be soft targets. In that build, SS1 was 120k and SS3 was 80k, though I didn't expect them to be good in that build

This may seem in parity to some but I would like to point out that those skills all hit for that damage regardless of what my ward pool is at. I am just as deadly at 1 ward as I am at full ward. And with practically 0 defense the Gilga SS build will be pretty useless fast with no stat bonus and no ward pool.

Final PVP thought, SS3 might as well not exist at all in PVP for current cap set up.

[gritty plinth]

Should ss damage be based on max ward instead of current ward?

That does help with the whole feast-and-famine aspect of second chance. Living at 1hp = deal no damage anyway

[young river]

Well that eliminates part of the whole spend aspect of making it consume ward. Which is part of the balance to the skill.

[gritty plinth]

Well it still lowers your ward and makes you easier to kill (theoretically)

[late oracle]

Yeah it can't be just t1, but there's a lot that plays into it, if you don't get turn 1 your ward gets shredded and then you're less tanky and have less damage, I'm just using this as an example

[young river]

Keep in mind I am not necessarily arguing against it, just pointing out a possible issue.

[gritty plinth]

But your ward gets shredded less if you don't get turn 1

50% damage going to ward vs 85%