3.17 Refinery Changes

[young rampart]

Odie said a majority of the active orna playerbase participated in the poll, it would be very unlikely that the few who didnt happened to be mostly supportive of refineries. Their data is likely as accurate as you would be able to get

.

[naive widget]

Benefits of keeping refineries:

• The GPS aspect of walking/driving around collecting things is sweet
• Dopamine from passive income gains
• Mat/gold sink

Am I missing anything? Does the comparison help?

[median viper]

yea what? refineries turn time into kingdom raid mats. the more time or refineries, the more k.raid mat

[clever stirrup]

Anguish 50 Boss Horde with chained shield is an idee clicker for me too

[past birch]

I think this is exactly why Anguish 2.0 has been getting worked on for many months, and is being beta tested now 😅

[median viper]

trying to reduce this to "yea well the entire game converts time to material"?

[naive widget]

Refineries don't cost YOUR time

[median viper]

yes they do..

[clever stirrup]

Sure u need materials for feeding

[naive widget]

It's seconds per refinery. Not comparable

[clever stirrup]

That cost a lot of time getting them

[young rampart]

You get an extreme amout of excess common materials just playing the game

[humble pecan]

Which shouldn't even be a thing anyway.

[naive widget]

I'm sure you spent a lot of time carefully farming for draconite or mythril

[median viper]

i do hit every dragon roost for dragonite

[young rampart]

It is basically free to fill refineries by the time you hit t10

[clever stirrup]

Wasn t too Bad for the last years to change

[naive widget]

Refineries turn excess into the best rare material farm in the game

For essentially no cost or engagement

[median viper]

time > mats is the loop. refineries are OP. this is a nerf.

[clever stirrup]

I hiked my Ass of for getting them

No engagement

[naive widget]

The initial setup is the only interesting part, agreed

I like that part of getting them

[young rampart]

Once its done you just sit at home and get idle materials

[naive widget]

See here

[clever stirrup]

I Don t know if its that more effectiv than running 50 anguish Boss Horde

[median viper]

arguing whether theyre boring or not isnt the point tho

[naive widget]

Yes, refineries are way more effective than every other piece of content. It's been mathed out

[median viper]

you don't have to, the guy who has all the data for the game does, and he said it is

woof. sorry to pile on

[clever stirrup]

Whose calculated that, also recognized the hours spending in grand Marketing?

[young rampart]

Refineries being boring for a majority of the playerbase is one of the reasons this change was made

[clever stirrup]

That the reason nobody should have them

[odd zinc]

Semi-Simplified Refinery Comparison: #1369697245980786729 message

[naive widget]

Yes and time in the grand market is way less than other ways of getting mats

But refineries are the real issue. Excess mats will always be part of the game one way or another. Hopefully a different way to actually convert them into something useful is created

[humble pecan]

They have an entire lore with Terra event that's against refineries as well and have a viable option to tie the mat exchange into that somehow

[naive widget]

I'm down for something like that

[clever stirrup]

Half the amount of mats u get out, and unpower this

[young rampart]

People will just double the amount of refineries they use

[naive widget]

That would just mean I need twice the refineries I've already amassed

[clever stirrup]

But it is not more effectiv than other Things so u cares?

[tawdry hornet]

Stop the Grand Market refresh loophole, and let them. If they’ve earned that many mats from playing the game already, then let them burn them for less payout.

[past birch]

It's not like nobody has done the math. The even easier observation is that the more refineries people have, the higher AL they are. Players being players they're going to optimize things (equip the best equipment, use the best spells, and so on).

Certainly if refineries were ~20x less productive than they currently are, it might be in the right ballpark in terms of player time to reward. But then that begs the question of if this "gameplay"/activity is even something NF wants to support; if it's a desirable gameplay loop.

[young rampart]

It is more effective, theres no cost or effort put into using refineries. They are quite litterally printing rare materials

[naive widget]

Exactly. Making them less productive is the same thing that the current patch is doing

Well, I guess there is a difference. But as was pointed out, the gameplay is not desirable

[young rampart]

.

[pallid crest]

Anyone arguing for “making them less productive” just wants to keep exploiting using them and is okay with doubling their menuing

[naive widget]

It's still "free" materials for basically no effort, and would still incentivize you to get as many as possible

[past birch]

Repeating myself a bit: NF has never commented on if refinery gameplay is itself a problem. Many players have (and some have said that they enjoy refineries), but the studio hasn't made that claim.

[clever stirrup]

What is getting by effort These days in orna?

[humble pecan]

But birb literally linked to Odie stating the studio can't be proud of it lol

[past birch]

Mass refineries do not represent a fair effort-to-reward ratio compared to other parts of the game, and are not really a progression method that we can be proud of, as a studio.
You can read into it that NF doesn't like the gameplay, but this argument is focused on the "effort-to-reward ratio".

[humble pecan]

Eh I can see it both ways

Anywho

[past birch]

Given that they've had four years to outright delete them if they thought they had zero gameplay value, and haven't done so, it implies that they see some value in having refineries stick around.

[young rampart]

I thought they were more worried about the communities reaction

• finding a good way to balance it

[humble pecan]

I think I made this a bit ago but what about a system (grand refinery?) that you can collect "tokens" instead of the actual refinery. You use the "tokens" on the grand refinery and it ups the capacity by so much. It gets people to travel still and people can still build a refinery while it allows NF to control how many actual mats it produces by soft or hard capping the tokens required to upgrade

Like instead of building and dragging, you get a fancy currency to upgrade your refinery to not game shattering levels

[past birch]

Five years since they were added (originally to solve the "I want pure waterstone and have waterstone" problem of 2020 😆), four years since ascension was added and players worked out that refineries are easy/the most efficient material source.

And then whenever the "orn bonus scales with quality" change is, where ascensions became only locked by materials.
And then grand market added afterward, freeing up the last vestige of pve gameplay.

It's been a very long history.

And to whit, in HoA when they had an opportunity to do a clean redesign, they limited refineries from the outset.

[humble pecan]

Introduce "refinery" collecting to the travelers guild of some sort. Guild could use some love outside of "mons"

[naive widget]

That history is helpful in showing why the grand market is not the actual issue lol

[past birch]

Yeah this topic isn't... new. 😅

I wrote this in January 2022, during a "2021 retrospective" exercise:

The most important addition from an endgame perspective was the Altar of Ascension and the related Refinery building from mid-late 2020, now risen to extreme prominence. It's been talked about a lot, but nothing has changed on the ascension front since initial introduction 8 months ago. Very many endgame players have worked out that creating and spamming refineries is the key to ascension, and very many endgame players have opted out of the system instead. What could have been a key endgame content loop of sending people off on directed quests for various materials is instead a content loop of menuing on a 12-hour timer, as well as a building minigame of walking refineries back home one at a time from the hinterlands where they were originally constructed.

I feel that refineries should get the kibosh as soon as possible. Making a building menu the best source of endgame progress instead of defeating enemies, exploring the world, and other engaging activities should be a cause for concern for retention. As the refineries are made less efficient, those engaging activities should be made more efficient to match to keep the overall progression rate similar to where it is now.

When we eventually got Guilds and guild shops (with materials), I thought for sure that would be the time for NF to finally nix refineries for good. 🤷‍♂️ Anyway, life goes on.

[pallid crest]

Yea, guilds were definitely the moment when they HAD to go, guilds feel like the perfect replacement for them

Now a subset of players has gotten used to using both methods at once and reaping insane results

[young rampart]

Some people like op things but its not always good for the game

[tawdry hornet]

I’m all for nerfing their effectiveness (and locking the Grand Market refresh to once a day….there’s zero other reason anyone needs to buy hundreds of copies of a piece of armor), but a hard cap still just feels weird. It would be like saying that Anguish dungeons are too lucrative and therefore you are only allowed to run 20 per day, instead of just tuning the rewards down.

[naive widget]

I would agree with you if your time was being committed to refinery grinding

[young rampart]

Anguish dungeons require gameplay + they have a cooldown which can be bypassed by traveling. Which is also another core part of the game

[naive widget]

There is no real time commitment to refineries besides a few minutes twice a day

Putting a cap on that seems appropriate

[pallid crest]

Let’s put it like this. There are people with over 100 refineries in their OT. If you have 150 refineries, using Knight’s method posted above, you get the equivalent to 100 Ang50 boss horde dungeons every 12 hours. That’s insane compared to how much time you’d have to invest to clear that amount of dungeons

Cap needs to happen

[velvet fable]

i catn heart react to this for some reason so heres my

[naive widget]

I did it for you

[tawdry hornet]

And refineries have 12hr cooldowns, require materials that you get from gameplay (after we lock the Market), and are fundamentally about traveling to new areas to set up foundries.

[velvet fable]

buffing other material gains like guilds (and making some guilds profitable in the first place) would make the refinery nerf or even a deletion much much more feasable

like getting cort, avalon and rore is painful. really, really painful. Either you just suck your kingdom out or its taking a WHILE.

i dont see a reason cort costs like 10 times more then ancient stone, both are equally hard to get.

[young rampart]

The materials you get from gameplay is still way too much to justify it. Plus the refinery cooldown is bypassed by having no limit to the number of refineries you can have. Also its not engaging, you just menu for afew minutes to get returns that would take hours of effort.

[tawdry hornet]

For me it is. I run dungeons, hunt specific enemies for materials, and then put those materials into refineries later.

[naive widget]

You hunt specific enemies for materials to put into your refinery?

Instead of hunting for the materials you need?

[velvet fable]

How does that bypass the cooldown? It doesnt matter if 1 or 1000, its still 12 hours.

[naive widget]

Do you sit and wait watching the refinery screen

[tawdry hornet]

That didn’t really apply to the dungeon-cooldown example either…

[naive widget]

I don't really know what point is being made by cooldowns; refineries don't have cooldowns. They are always producing

[tawdry hornet]

Can’t really control what spawns nearby. But going in a Dragon den is more useful than a Beast den if you have options, yeah.

[young rampart]

Lets say it takes you 5seconds to fill a refinery, you fill 1000refineries in 83minutes, after 12 hours you get over 700 anguish 50 dungeonz worth of loot for 83 minutes of effective playtime. Also who finds menuing for 83 minutes fun, if it was build making sure but filling refineries does not require thought

[naive widget]

Sure yeah but that's just what running dungeons is like. You are playing the game and getting mats

You don't need draconite to fill refineries

I just put in the highest superior item

[odd zinc]

That's just because its a difference in tiers.
The same as how gold and orns cost for things go up as you go up in tiers.
The same as how Guild EXP becomes easier to obtain in almost all guilds as you go up in tiers.

[naive widget]

My gameplay does not revolve around refineries, they are just free progression

If you don't play often enough to accumulate mats, you may have worse results with refineries I guess. But that does not mean they aren't OP

Just means you are gaining progression for minimal playtime

[velvet fable]

no, 1 or 1000, doesnt matter.

[velvet fable]

while they are producing, they are producing, but you have to wait for it to finish producing to get stuff. Its not instant.

[velvet fable]

i would respect that, if ascensions actually cared about that too, but they dont. :(

[young rampart]

It litterally does, each refinery reduced your item refined per hour significantly until you reach the point you are still filling refineries when your first ones are done refining

And thats not accounting for the fact that if you arent at that point yet you arent even playing the game while earning those materials for free

[velvet fable]

i dont think anybody built 10k+ refineries

[velvet fable]

buying/grinding the materials to fill them costs time too, its not free.

[young rampart]

Thats not the point, the point is additional refineries reduce the effective time to refine materials

[naive widget]

It's pretty free

It's only not free if you don't play the game much

[young rampart]

It is pretty free. And its a terrible gameplay loop im my opinion

[velvet fable]

that is correct

[velvet fable]

honestly its not worse then towers. Yes its terrible, but in comparison to the next best thing its more entertaining

[naive widget]

It would take about that many funny enough

[velvet fable]

Once i got my mirror ic an see if ang 2.0 becomes a better alternative which i would love

[velvet fable]

i need a minute to fill my 20, so about 10k seems fair as you will get slower once the arthritis kicks in if you do that for 12 hours a day

[young rampart]

If you hate pve content what do you do in the game?

[valid shore]

If someone is saying Towers are bad in here thatd be an insane take

[velvet fable]

Please keep the elitism away from me. I didnt say that. If you run out of arguments, be an adult and dont get personal please.

[naive widget]

Idk what you mean by this tbh. Refineries don't produce the materials instantly, sure... but when you fill them you don't have to do anything else for 12 hours before you gain all the rewards.

This basically means my time invested (a few minutes or less than a minute) gains me the mats. That is way, way more time-effective than anything else

[velvet fable]

not bad, but unfun. Absolutely no enjoyer of having to fake walk in a GPS game

[valid shore]

Didnt sound like elitism to me

[tawdry hornet]

Need more randomized groups and less puzzles, but different thread.

[young rampart]

No I am genuinely asking because I want to know like what part of the game appeals to you.

[velvet fable]

it was assuming, and bashing me for something i didnt even say, to make a point that didnt exist, so i had to defend myself.

[valid shore]

all the "walking" was eliminated its just TPing between rooms.

[velvet fable]

which is definitely an improvement, but not a solution IMO. Its just opening the map, waiting till it finishes, mentally arranging everything from the top end of the map screen to the places it belongs to and then tapping to get there. I dont see why its not condensed onto one screen. But thats a different topic

[valid shore]

Towers imo is some of the best actual gameplay Orna can offer for the past 2 some years. Actual skill related to it, lots of variety in it over time. Quite a bit to sink your teeth into compared to most the mindless slop we have rn

[valid shore]

I can see your argument and all ill say is I like these aspects. It allows skill expression and to me thats one of the biggest missing factors in this game. I liek the movement an dlearning tricks to puzzles and working off your key economy all while having your build prepped etc etc. Suppose its just not up your alley kind of deal which is fair.

[main saffron]

I also enjoy towers quite a bit, though I think that's a bit off-topic here

[velvet fable]

I do think the fighting in it is interesting, i do not appreciate the RNG of the buffs, and the fake walking... or teleporting, same thing, fake movement in a GPS game... but the rest of it is fun. The augments are a good concept, celestial weapons rock, tower pets are nice, visually towers are pleasing, titans are fun to kill, and the way shards are distributed seems reasonable.

(Oh also i forgot the puzzles, they are fun too)

[violet robin]

Thanks, you re right. I will try party play ^^

[young rampart]

But you think thats worse than filling refineries?

[valid shore]

I genuinely think there hasnt been a single worse thing in terms of gameplay/progression balance then refineries. 0 gameplay, 100% chore, 100% meta progression. We have people in the 100+ AL tier with lower stats then fresh T10s

[velvet fable]

i think the loop is less satisfying once you reached the point where the walking becomes a nuisance, and nerfs the fun of the other aspects.
Refinerys are one big nuisance, but its pressing 4 buttons and moving on.

i dont think the concept of towers is bad, and it got improved by a lot. I just dont think the aspect of fake movement benefits it in any way

[main saffron]

Goudine clearly doesn't do enough party play

[valid shore]

There is no skill or effort, or gameplay. Thats literally a chore. The "work" refiniries require is akin to jobs you could work lmao. It is horrendous and even those who abuse it often hate that they have to to stay competitive

[velvet fable]

Commense the suffering

[velvet fable]

i fully agree to that statement.

[young rampart]

And you believe filling refineries afew times should give equal value to running a tower for mats? If so I cant really argue with that its just not a very common opinion

[valid shore]

even if you may want to say you dislike other aspects of the game I dont think that bolsters a defense of refineries at all. they should 100% be removed.

[velvet fable]

i dont really think refineries should outweight that, but its a gameplay loop like any other. If we talk about fun purely, i would prefer refineries over the execution of current towers - not concept. Tho with what anguish 2.0 brings, dungeons are getting more then buff and onetap, and raids stop becoming speedruns, potentially, so there maybe be some actual diversity and i can enjoy other things then towers again.

what i love about dungeons and raids is - you go in, you fight. No fake movement, no selecting more fights, no menu this menu that, just... go, fight, leave. Its beautiful. And anguish can provide exactly that

[young rampart]

But if refineries can outperform a tower in seconds and youd rather fill refineries than run a tower, isnt that a problem with refineries?

[velvet fable]

it is! And i think it got misunderstood, but im not against fixing that problem. Im just not for fixing it without giving us ways to catch up, by making other aspects more rewardable (and finally fixing ascension material cost beeing indiscriminate while guild costs arent)

like if you now make the high mats less expensive, catching up is way easier, and since Anguish actually NEEDS the AL, it makes more sense then ever making them accessible without turning the game into FarmVille

[violet robin]

I did it, Knight to, and some more did also. It's not even something you can compare. It outclass by a huge margin the mats/time. By a HUGE margin

[valid shore]

I think you just need to consider objectivity v. subjectivity here. Refineries are objectively poorly balanced and tedious, on anyones scale or measurements. Its a poorly designed and implemented system that promotes unhealthy gameplay and improper balancing.

Towers, however, arent. Lots of people like towers and play them alot entirely out of fun. Persoanlly I have viewed them as my enxt to only reason to keep playing this game for years now as Ang Towers have been the only semblance of real gameplay for a minute.

Meta progression in terms of ALs and such(may even be ultiamtely much less important post Ang2) but is also NOT an indicator of if something is good or it should stay. Thats like saying if Odie added a pack of 500 of each mat for 50 dollars it shouldnt be removed because nothign else allows you to progress as fast.

[young rampart]

I very much misunderstood that, but keeping refineries unerfed isnt a good way to go about making als acessible

Also you dont need to start anguish at lvl 50, even at low ascensions there is content in anguish

[valid shore]

to be blunt anguish is changing so most of these conversation points are irrelavent tbh.

[balmy condor]

I am surprised that there is this much typing about refineries. There are many catch up mechanics in Orna over time.

[wispy heath]

And hey would you look at that the anguish change is in beta right now guys don't you want to go test it?

please?

[balmy condor]

And finally a change that players didnt like is happening

[wispy heath]

Please? Anguish? 🥺

No more refineries?

🥹

[balmy condor]

IOS

[young rampart]

Lmao

Im so glad this chat was made

[valid shore]

you got some money for my testing 😏

[clever stirrup]

I would be really interested how u calculated or compared the two methods and not because i Don t believe u guys

[past birch]

Just goes to show how much an outsized impact this silly little building has that a change to it drives more discussion than gigantic guild reworks and new systems. 😛

[young rampart]

Fr death to refineries

[wispy heath]

#1369697245980786729 message

[echo wasp]

Sorry Ive been inactive on the thread for a few hours, just been emptying all my refineries.

[valid shore]

Those who abuse refineries dont really "play" the game anyways :) Heard they have a "friend" who does it for them!

[clever stirrup]

No a Real calculation

[cloud vigil]

Like the fishing earlier… too soon to discuss about what those people do with « friends » 🐶

[valid shore]

Good point ill brb in 2 hours so I can fill my refineries(stimulating gameplay that doesnt make feel like uninstalling every click)

[wispy heath]

Well goudine is here, he can grab the actual math. Man loves hating refineries. I don't have it on hand, but this has been done plenty of times, by many people

[clever stirrup]

For Exemplar 21 of the materials u get back in rafineries are the one u can byu in grand Market and are totally useless

[valid shore]

hahha lots of people with dedicated friends who can endure the most broing gameplay for hours on end and get them 100s of ALs all for free 😊 what nice people

[cloud vigil]

Yeah it’s convenient isn’t it

If I had such friend I could finally reach that AL50 🫠

[velvet fable]

i get your points.
I also dont think the refinery system is good, i just think we should get a catchup mechanic to have a chance to compete again with those who abused it. The ranking system is fundamentally broken in its weighting system, so i dont really care about that; its mostly just about putting in more effort should reward you more.

[pallid crest]

Thankfully, the people that calculated that excluded those materials from their calculations

[wispy heath]

And the rest aren't.
The math involves grabbing all possible refinery outcomes, discarding the irrelevant ones (but keeping in mind they still get dropped), then grabbing the spread of all other materials, averaging out their proof weight, and comparing it to the proof output of a dungeon

[ripe storm]

Yes that is a real calculation

You can read the full methodology and process in Cade Labs

It is a very long thread there

[young rampart]

With the way progression works, youll never catch up. People who played longer will always be ahead regardless of what you add.

[wispy heath]

1 ANG50 HB dungeon takes anywhere between 1m and 2.5m depending on your class of choice, and gives 15 proofs.
The referenced math says that a refinery filled with famed materials gives roughly that many proofs worth of materials.

[clever stirrup]

Thanks for letting me know

[ripe storm]

https://discord.com/channels/996100509511463012/1326204365983318160

That thread shows the materials I excluded, all my formulas used, and methods for determining value of activities

Edit: Cade Labs https://discord.gg/YPUdr4eaE5

[rare juniper]

Very good read, btw

[main saffron]

I've been holding off on rejoining Cade Labs because I know as soon as I do I'm gonna want to start testing and maybe even writing stuff again, and my irl isn't gonna leave much time for that at this moment - but y'all are tempting me

[ripe storm]

I don't share the thread too widely because it is literally a thread about optimizing the fun out of Orna

For the sake of science 😆

[rare juniper]

Grk showed me that thread and blew me away with the info

[velvet fable]

that did happen the moment we got the alter of ascension tho, in the state it was :C Refineries were just the most convinient way

[ripe storm]

And that thread explores the best possible ways to play only aiming for Ascension

[thick lichen]

It isn't the silly little building to me. It's the constant nerfs that keep happening and I find out about it when it is announced as an upcoming update and then destroys one build after another, or like area Duke and destroys years worth of work on hitting those spots just to do it all over again... but different. Maybe we can focus on little stuff like this when I can access in game chats, run dungeons without getting frozen in floor (especially in party, every floor), find my friends in game, etc.

[past birch]

constant nerfs that keep happening
We must be playing different games 😅 Genuinely don't know what you're talking about.
Nerfs in Orna are like a snowflake in July.

[velvet fable]

Need. infinite. Power.

:)

[velvet fable]

they are rare, they always hit hard, and are often shaking the meta deeply. Tho they arent often!

[ripe storm]

The answer that thread came to is hundreds of refineries and running towers; buying Diluted Mnemonics with tower shards.

[young rampart]

Assuming this is true it doesnt mean nerfing refineries isnt for the better, when change is implimented it can be damaging at first but still be good in the long run. Also did the old system actually ever give decent rewards?

[thick lichen]

Or you are a bit oblivious to it. Builds that have been nerfed, GSA, GSA, Heratic (kinda sorta), Area Duke, and upcoming nerfs SS/CS, Crit Builds. Off the top of my head.

[velvet fable]

you can still do the old territory control system, and i wouldnt say losing the rewards it gave was a loss, those where for me with over 2000 territorys, about 10 seconds worth of horde boss a day.

[pallid crest]

The dukedom system wasn’t touched at all? It still exists exactly how it always did (it just stopped giving a pitiful amount of gold etc)

[young rampart]

Some rewards were litterally double digit orns per month

[wispy heath]

If you saved up for a couple of centuries you could ascend once, maybe.

[thick lichen]

After everything is bought in Conq, I would say my Area rewards were pretty good. Just couldn't get HoC, skin packs, or specs.

[valid shore]

AL being an exponential system is inherently meant to be easy to catch up. In terms of catching up to refineries, no lol. Broken mechanics cant be normalized, I was someone who avoided refineries and only recently built 100+ that I barely use. I could complain to catch up and be compensated for the like 12+ hours I spoent moving all those refineries but just no.

They need to be gone and burned away and crucified and exorcised ASAP and nothing of its sort should return to the game.

[ripe storm]

Judging by the speed that 53 High Street ascends, this is accurate

[violet robin]

As you asked for some specific calculations, caped mats rewards from conq guild is about 20ish refineries (filled twice)

[thick lichen]

He has a ton of land but is super easy to kill.

[ripe storm]

"A ton of land" is all that matters for rewards

[young rampart]

Theres a cap for conq guild mats?

[ripe storm]

And it ain't many rewards

[velvet fable]

i agree to that, and im certain anguish 2.0 will replace the content gap for profitable content (Yes, since we only really have towers and anguish horde boss, it was one of the major content aspects to progress... which sucks)

[young rampart]

Plastering your face across the land is all the motivation I need

[violet robin]

Soft, but a really hard soft

[violet robin]

Yes, that's 2k random. Nearly same as what I just said for ref

[velvet fable]

blessed be the day we can get more then one shrine, item and othersoul drop per collect, even with diminishing returns.
More monster aspects for the monster aspect god.

[young rampart]

I wish conq didnt favor big low population density areas

[thick lichen]

How does it?

[velvet fable]

you go get a lot of random territorys nobody contests, you buy a repair every 10 days, profit.

[valid shore]

low pop is awful man. I have like noone around me so I have like 0 interactions with it. I lose a handful of territories every couple of months. And dont feel like conquering my entire states worth of settlements to get the same rewards as higher contention folk :(

[pallid crest]

Isn’t Conq guild discussion a bit off topic here?

[young rampart]

I cant own my own home town without it being taken with a week max if not litteral hours

[ripe storm]

It is probably the closest example of a "healthy" gameplay alternative to refineries

[valid shore]

dream scenario

[violet robin]

What about just sending the SS from 2 years ago with a dude with less than 200k boss kill and 276 AL and close the thread ? 😋

[thick lichen]

Contest gives a ton more rewards and settlements outside of a certain radius give basically nothing. I lost 1,400 the other day and dropped me only 1 proof and nothing else.

[velvet fable]

i still wonder how the system works indepth... is there a link to a deep explaination?

[young rampart]

With the 250 land I own I get 400mats a day with 16 proofs TwT

[velvet fable]

try to pop a repair (all settlements back to fresh capture) your rewards will SKYROCKET.

also after you did that wait like an hour before you collect tho, to be safe.

[thick lichen]

I do every Monday.

[velvet fable]

thats 7 days tho, it lasts 10 :o

[thick lichen]

I have plenty to use the Upkeep and don't want to forget. Lol

[ripe storm]

Rewards are done with a heavy curve, so if you have tens of thousands of settlements losing 1400 won't matter.

Having a high contest settlement for any type of reward also boosts that reward heavily (only once per reward type though)

[valid shore]

🤷‍♂️ by the nature of next to no players around and especially any players who can compete with my gearing/ALs I have nex tto no interest in the system or its mechanics sadly :P I only really learn the stuff relavent to me

[velvet fable]

i just wanna know if taking lower tier spaces multiplies the reward or if beeing in there in any seat is enough for full rewards, mostly.

or if just your tier space matters aka T10/11 for me

[thick lichen]

This is my primary play area, but I get around when I can.

[valid shore]

ahh that I do believe ik. Higher tier spots give better rewards but every added seat will increase the rewards you get and obv highest seat decides what rewards. Ideally you always wanna take highest seat and choose best reward available then work your way down as they reward increase is lower and lower as the tier drops.

I think lol, I am not the ebst source of Conq related info again as my interest in research has been minimal

[velvet fable]

that means i need more beo equipment for low tier

[thick lichen]

From my understanding, you just need one seat per. I still try to take all when I can.

[valid shore]

Depends on quantity primarily. By the nature of having a ||hard|| soft cap if you own LOTS of territories then spending your time on the much less rewarding seats arent worth it but for someone like me who doesnt travel alot/dislikes being on my phone when I do travel, its better to take all the points I can when I can

[thick lichen]

I went high pet/summ on OS, just getting my crit/att/mag gear out of shop and will df and test it out. The pet/sum OS hold up well for def, but it's very slow on att. Also, status effects are good to have available and immunity.

Mostly went that route because that was the old gear I had and the early playstyle I was familiar with.

[main saffron]

I've got the first part down. Struggling with the second lmao.

[thick lichen]

Area Duke rewards were based on other players traveling through that area every 30 days. If it was all backroads and easy to get but no players ever traveled through there, rewards went away. That's how Odie described it to me.

[main saffron]

I'm pretty sure that's not accurate, but if I'm wrong I would love to see where Odie said it. /gen

[thick lichen]

It's been a while. I've come over to the maincord only a few times to engage. The last was over area duke.

[velvet fable]

Yeah thats what i was aiming for too as its just so strong and easy to execute

[mortal jacinth]

That is more or less how the old territory system worked.

[velvet fable]

buy the item for 300 that resets the stat decline, and for 10 days, all territorys give rewards like freshly captured.

it sets my rewards from 250 mats to about 1000

[main saffron]

Yeah, my issue is that I own just about every territory near me and only get 5 or so nearby territories taken per week - so my Proof of Conquering income is 99% from RPS

And I can't do 60 RPS per day, usually

So, the cost of Upkeeping every ten days, is more than my income

But that's a conversation for a different thread, lol

[velvet fable]

i should go hiking again, when summer comes i will get my bike and be a menace to ornaciety again.

[floral notch]

what if refineries were attached to territories/settlements?

[velvet fable]

30 you need

also rewards diminish over a few days

they are not gone in an instant

[velvet fable]

that would require me to sit down in the subway every day

[main saffron]

You need 30 RPS wins per day on average. But you win 50% on average. So you need to do 60 RPS per day on average to maintain upkeep, if that's your only income (or close to it).

[floral notch]

and is moving in a GPS game bad?

[thick lichen]

Every person that hits me, I AR them and encourage them to hit me. I'll drop gear if I need to, so they can hit me.

[main saffron]

lmao, I'm wet paper as it is

[velvet fable]

if you dont put in effort to get a payoff you shouldnt get payoff, simply as that. Stagnation is the death of progress.

[main saffron]

If you hit me, you WILL kill me

Nobody is hitting me

[velvet fable]

sitting in the subway, in a train, or a car, is not really something that should be rewarded. Actual activity shout.

[velvet fable]

Welcome to summoners rift

[main saffron]

I main Deity, believe it or not

I just use a very glass-cannon build in PvP

And I'm still level 232

So, any reasonable t11 or even high t10 will cream me

I can beat them, but if they want to smack me back they'll have it easy

But they don't smack me back much lmao

[floral notch]

I would say commuting is fine but car play is not. Then again attaching refineries is not what would make settlements unhealthy because then they already are.

It is just an incentive to have more land uncapped which is cool "conquering" and to be a landlord.

Plus it's better than alt conquering a few places around your home and call it a day for max cap rewards.

[velvet fable]

GPS content in the GPS game that actually rewards you would be great. Since anguish will make dungeons etc go longer, you potentially need way less dungeons in the same time, and therefore the only aspect of traveling around that is rewarding is gone.
Tower floors are too unreliable and too rarely on 50 to be considered worth it by me in that regard
I would LOVE more GPS gameplay in the GPS game.

[violet robin]

Iirc orna was partly made thinking about people having to use public transport to join their work place

[velvet fable]

still it shouldnt outclass walking/biking by a magnitude of wtf

[main saffron]

There's a whole path of the new anguish for world farming

[valid shore]

Ive noticed those with regular commutes often dont know this but commuting is more location based then some think. Where I live is much less urban and as such like the only bus we have even close that "commutes" is for elderly to get out of the house lol. I hate refinieries exisiting in any form ofc so I hate it on that basis alone but see alot talk about things based around commuting and just want to voice to others that for people like myself this is nearly impossible and I could only parrot it by having someone drive me around all day lol.

[velvet fable]

which im really excited for. Tho if theres nothing added to it its just killing bosses and killing the mobs that infinitely spawn around you, which isnt exactly something i cant do otherwise

[main saffron]

It'll add a nonzero amount of added challenge and rewards to something I do anyway. Even if it's not much, it's better than zero and that's enough for me.

[velvet fable]

Currently the most engaging thing i remember from beeing T10+ and moving is having to not enjoy my walks to pick up the mats that spawn every 100 steps

[velvet fable]

the last time i world farmed was halloween. I wish there was more to it.

the random event zones are a good start

[violet robin]

Boss doesn't respawn as quickly, so it's still something. Even if it's not needed to move to enjoy the game, I enjoy it way more when I walk/m on a bus, sub, train (except when network glitch !). Agree some more gps things could be added, some things have been done about it and I guess they ll keep working for it so I m fine 🙏🏻

[main saffron]

I enjoy it. I like going for a casual walk, or riding a bus or train, and killing stuff along the way

On that note, see y'all later. Don't burn the place down before I get back, mmmkay?

[velvet fable]

same, it feels much better when moving, it feels... right. We are getting more an more couchable content - i do hope that changes eventually.

the nerf of refinery is a step towards actually having to play

[violet robin]

(conq for exemple, and the last halloween event, I really liked it)

[autumn laurel]

which from the current numbers will not be playable in an efficiency sense. the whole point of AL was getting better at farming in a farming game. like you do what you did before better, so more rewardsnper time spent. now al never makes you better, you just can access anguish+1 without ever reaching a point where you smooth sail through content which is supposedly what you want in a farming game. what's the point of progressing if I am never going to do anything better than before anyway? and from the numbers we see, it's going to be more proofs/minute at lower Ang, with some soft cap, because monsters HP scale more than we do and maluses keep stacking up. whatever that soft efficiency cap is, al above that is uniquely for show, instead of a permanent (no matter how small) improvement to efficiency. so you never catch up nor actually progress. which isn't fun for endgamers. some people will try to reach "very hard levels", but will they play hours per day for months there with no progress? suffering more at anguish 43 than 29 no matter what they do? I get the fun "pun" of anguish being a suffering to do, but how many people want to suffer structurally as the main game loop?

[ripe storm]

now al never makes you better

If you want Orna to remain as a farming only game, do not turn on Anguish 2.0.

It may not be a nice answer, but Anguish is just another guild and gameplay modifier, and it is specifically designed not to be just a farming game.

[autumn laurel]

anguish 1.0 got nerfed to dust in dungeons and world by hp scaling. so even with that in mind ("don't use anguish 2.0), then the patch is the biggest nerf ever seen in the game by a huge margin to all gameloops

[ripe storm]

The explicit design of Anguish 2.0 is to prevent mindless farming and create decision making and difficulty.

[tawdry hornet]

Seems like there’s a number somewhere between “hundreds” and 10 that would be reasonable, if it needs a hard cap at all…

[autumn laurel]

except tower I guess where hp scaled anyway already (unless it scales more now)

add raid build nerfs to that, how are people going to feel taking a multiple of the time to achieve what they achieved before? is that healthy?

[ripe storm]

There's a number between 0 and hundreds that seems reasonable, and 10 seems like a fine place imo

[autumn laurel]

the nerfing of world farming alone in HOA is going to be a complete earthquake, maybe people here don't know 90%+ of players never do endless

[ripe storm]

I have exactly 0 things to say about world farming in Aethric, that is a different game

If Anguish 2.0 needs to do something different in HoA I do not care either way, I'm sorry

[autumn laurel]

what about "just don't turn on anguish 2.0" but never mind your mammons now have 4m HP in dungeon anyway?

[ripe storm]

I can barely keep up with all the feedback and balance issues in this game

[autumn laurel]

anguish 1.0 being killed is true for orna as well

you can not click 2.0 but you can't farm anymore as before, gl

[ripe storm]

Regarding what @tawdry hornet pinged me about:

The answer to the math was that the correct way to play Orna was to own as many refineries as possible and do the minimum amount of other gameplay that is required to fund those refineries.

This (hopefully) isn't how anyone actually plays, it's just the mathematically most efficient use of time.

It's also possible that Endless to farm orns probably funds you enough gold to maintain the refineries

[clever stirrup]

Thanks for showing out the whole calculation Thing behind it, really interesting and well documented, i enjoyed it👍. but i miss the rates of normal mats, which i probably melt in more than the rarer ones. Buying only Green or blue mats in grand Market takes a lot more time, or do i missed it somewhere? Or is everybody Else accept me only Melting the rarer mats?

[ripe storm]

Buying only Green or blue mats in grand Market takes a lot more time

Go to the weapons and armor tabs and search "Draconian". You can buy hundreds of items then bulk dismantle them very easily

[clever stirrup]

🙈

[tawdry hornet]

And buying hundreds of materials is the part that enables the whole problem.

[naive widget]

Incorrect

It exacerbates the afk portion, sure

[naive widget]

But we know refineries have been an issue long before grand market

[violet robin]

It was an issue, as rewards was already ⬆️⬆️, you had to farm those mats to refil your refs but it was already something really debatable (it especially became a big thing with people starting alt farming).
Grand market + power boost (in all part but especially in endless for the ref topic) just make this ⬆️⬆️ a ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️

Cf. the huge AL/really low grind characters we've seen

[violet robin]

About the grand market/drac thing, I would say it's duable to buy on average more than 1.5k drac/minute

[grave reef]

Isnt it way better, as the turnouts are right now to just spam horde boss dungeons for orta?

I mean granted grand market is good for low tier and green mats, best you can buy is orichalcum which is green and t8 irrc

[autumn laurel]

in HOA we fill the 5 refineries with ortanite

[wispy heath]

The less refineries, the more quality you should shove into it, yes

But if you have hundreds of refineries, filling them with ortanite isn't feasible.

[autumn laurel]

*the fewer 🫡

[wispy heath]

You just shove the most qualitied "free" material, which is draconite

[grave reef]

But the turnout is ho rri ble, again, the gameplay experience of refilling the refineries is what makes them "untouchable" for me, loading times are just horrendous even for most average gaming phones

[wispy heath]

Fuck, and I knew that, too.
Brb, going to whip myself

[halcyon locust]

do we know how much people are abusing refineries that much?

[wispy heath]

Odie does, and that's probably all that is needed to make the change

[halcyon locust]

would be somehow nice to know a rough %-amount of the higher playerbase

[autumn laurel]

it's not abuse because the game allows is and there is no rule violation or game intent violation we shouldn't mistreat those that used them when it was available

still it's good to nerf that

[violet robin]

Issue is ability to use more than 10, way more than 10 refineries. It's not possible for massive refineries use to maintain enough orta farm, or any other sup mats. So drac is the fastest to buy on gm, that's why gm increased by quite a margin the ref power : you don't have to actively farm to refill your ref = you can push for way more ref, and you basicaly don't have to play the game much, and theoriticaly - as Knight said - if talking about AL farm, it's... better not to play the game and spend as much time as possible using ref 😅

[halcyon locust]

its mostly a nerf because some less people are something "abusing" on a hard way

[autumn laurel]

well you need a lot of orns at least other than mats to Al to the moon

[halcyon locust]

i think mats are much more harder than the orns

[ripe storm]

In Orna, mathematically all you should do is refill your refineries and run endless

[autumn laurel]

that's usually the case unless you mainly do towers as your main game

[ripe storm]

If you run out of refineries to refill, spend that time collecting more

[autumn laurel]

which is the "normal" way to Al a lot

[halcyon locust]

farm 15k cort or realm and the next few AL again,,,,

[grave reef]

If the most efficient way currently is the massively unfun buy-refresh-refill loop of grand market and dozens of refineries...? well if yea thats a massively out of the spirit of the game something im pretty sure has just gone unnoticed for lots of reasons, most of them being not expecting people to actually do such loops i guess

[autumn laurel]

priedieus eve RyOne has been talking about it since "forever"

[halcyon locust]

when someone is only doing this, than he is not even playing and dont hurt with his high AL 🙂

[autumn laurel]

then conq guild happened...

[ripe storm]

Yes, nobody has claimed Brye is hurting anyone 😆

[grave reef]

Sure i wasnt talking balance here nor that they are "bad" for doing it, i think its a loop that was known but it just got "stuck" in the muck of other priorities

[violet robin]

And he didn't do only that*

[violet robin]

Yes

[ripe storm]

Yes, Brye does play the game also. As far as I'm aware nobody has fully gone all-out on efficiency mode

[halcyon locust]

im always thinking its a game, when someone has time to refill his 200 refineries for 1h or whatever per day and its worth for him, than spend the time, i would use it for different things..

[ripe storm]

The simple fact is that even for people who efficiency minded there's a level of un-fun that's too far

[violet robin]

According to some SS long ago, some did 😅

[grave reef]

Yea we seem to agree, if i had the "resilience" to run that loop i would

[ripe storm]

Yeah, I know some people did have wayvessels set up where the only thing they could see were refineries to max VD

[grave reef]

But again i even hate running buff loops for endless so...

[halcyon locust]

the time to farm them all togheter on a place, omg

[ripe storm]

This was pre-grand market even lol

[halcyon locust]

yeah i know...
i made it with a view refineries, not even that much, and its somehow really timeconsuming to build and drag, so a lot of effort is in there

[violet robin]

Overall I think it's a fair change and a win for the game, and tbh the community

Maybe not for my own AL as I will have to remove them again when it will be live, I guess

[halcyon locust]

if they cut it at 10, than they can make a grand refinery, and a lot of people are happy and lucky

[violet robin]

Yes I agree

[halcyon locust]

10 simple buildings make no sence than

[wispy heath]

This is Residence Slander

[grave reef]

Just built a "grand inn" at this point

[thick lichen]

I would much rather have a grand refinery. With no limit to what can be put into it. Or, the bank idea I put out earlier.

[worn dock]

All of this topic is brye fault

[thick lichen]

@silver wigeon !!! Lol
I like Brye, super nice guy.

[thick lichen]

I have to say, we may all have bickering back and forth a lot today, but at a minimum we are passionate about our beliefs etc. I thank you all for your effort in communication, regardless of the outcome.

[dawn ore]

Anyone knows if the refineries will be removed when the update releases ?
Just to know if the few players with 100+ refineries will keep their advantages over fresh players or they'll have to build the max 10 refineries.

[main saffron]

They’re not being removed, but only ten can be active at once

[dawn ore]

Ooh, interesting, so it's like only 10 will be usable no matter the amount of refineries you have

My dear @wispy heath could you pin this, so others doesn't have to scroll to find the answer 😉

[halcyon locust]

And no queuing possible

[wispy heath]

Pinned something a lil more official

[dawn ore]

Perfection

[velvet fable]

Heyo, quick check, what happened to the refinery poll thats in the works? Is it still in the works or did i miss it?

[wispy heath]

Still in the works, stay tuned

[fair parcel]

I think it's worth mentioning that grand market/shop also represents an unfair effort-to-reward ratio, since the cost to refresh is trivial in the late game. It's the best way to farm dayleaf, nightshade, elstone with little to no cost.

With grandmarket remaining as it is, there is no way to suggest an alternative way to dump excess mat, as it will come down to gm and new system loop.

[autumn laurel]

there is one way, but it requires the mat dump to only allow mats you can't buy in the GM

[inner karma]

The difference is that all of these mats generally were always shoppable. The GM decreased extensive menuing by allowed you to do larger purchases. If gm was nerfed we would all just go back to refreshing normal shops. Why is there even a necessity to 'dump' excess mats? Just have a lot of a few mats.

[fair parcel]

Then it will make mat from GM excessive

[fair parcel]

Well i did mention shop alongside gm, but it should not be done infinitely even shop have increasing cost after each refresh, gm should be at least the same
Excess mat was the reason AL exists, to dump it for power, right?

Menuing through shop and gm is unhealthy gameplay though

[naive widget]

10 refineries will be enough for a lot of people's excess mats

[inner karma]

I think it was the initial reason but doesn't mean its the primary motivator at this point. There's literally no downside to having 'too much' of a material. I just don't see the benefit of suddenly assigning much increased value to mats that are considered 'free' right now.

That being said if all you're speaking about is a gold increase I think it would really disproportionately affect lower al players. I can reroll grand market all day I'm still gold capped.

[naive widget]

You don't know how much gold you have! For all you know you could only have 1,000,000,000

[inner karma]

Well considering I just cleared 3 iron blocks by refreshing 1000 times I think I'm at least somewhat safe

[fair parcel]

The game doesnt show u but u can have more than that

[naive widget]

But you don't know

[inner karma]

Odie how much gold do I have

[fair parcel]

gm and shops refresh should share the same fate as refinery, same menuing to get lots of mat with little to no cost

[past birch]

He answered when I asked on an all-caps wednesday, once
https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/905399265784913960/1291104405575303311

[inner karma]

God damn, you got a lot of gm refreshes in you

[fair parcel]

So there is a gold cap then big enough cost should hurt

[dawn ore]

Could I suggest instead of having 10 refineries, to just have 1 with 10 upgrades increasing the storage by 120 per level ?

It's the same thing but instead of clicking 10 different building every 12 hours, you only click on one

[mortal jacinth]

It was suggested before and Odie sounded receptive, but this was probably an easier solution to implement immediately.

[thick lichen]

For the argument that not enough players know about the refinery "abuse", make a Refinery Master Badge that describes how to utilize it. Everyone already has equal access and we don't have to end scaling, but can allow only one shop to be used so it doesn't interfere with "real play." Just bump the cap up and make the refinery once every 24hrs instead of 12hrs.

[naive widget]

Make a badge of shame. A badge with the number of refineries this player has built

[dapper dagger]

Being as the game has gone from something you couldn't really sit and grind (outside of world mobs) when I first started playing to something that has evolved to you can sit and grind for as long as your fortitude let's you, I am not sure just simple capping refineries is an option I could get behind, especially if it's only capped at 10. I'd rather see a more holistic fix.

Being as I have grown to appreciate idle gaming with my limited time, I like that refineries are basically an idle game that allows me some slow progression towards my goal. It only provides part of what I need to and not anything towards Orns. So I can't ascend strictly through idle gaming.

However, having an absurd number of refineries isn't something that I think is great either. So my holistic solution would be to create an idle game system that operates inside studio approved reward levels.

[naive widget]

I think that comes out to about 10 refineries

[dapper dagger]

I was thinking about something that is more of a game system in itself. Not "ohh great you built 10 buildings one time, here's some free stuff."

[thick lichen]

I can get behind that. What about having to actually refine materials yourself through various different actions for different materials?

Like Draconite to Pure Draconite, you have to circle swipe 10x per 1 mat.

Or, X swipe to turn another mat to another mat.

[dapper dagger]

Last I checked Fishing is not an idle system, it does not progress while you are offline

[thick lichen]

And, you fight Cthulu in fishing. Never fought Cthulu in a refinery or in Grand Market.

Ooh, could fight something in them though. Like thieves and bandits.

[hasty chasm]

#1370416842065313852 message

[past birch]

Voted '5' because '0' wasn't an option.

[hasty chasm]

Voted 5 to create parity to hoa

I don't really care if its 5 10 or 15, as long as there's a low cap

[past birch]

That was the happy compromise from the last giant refinery thread, iirc.

The anti-idle hardline opinion of 0 isn't popular (increasingly unpopular as the years go by and people don't know what it's like to not have them); the delta between 0 and 100 isn't much different than between 5 and 100.

[inner karma]

Voted 10 in current iteration. If there's a grand refinery or something I think a value of 15 is fine. I think it has a nice place as a catch-up mechanic but shouldn't be overboard and would prefer less menuing.

[past birch]

It is not a catch-up mechanic 😅

A catch-up mechanic would mean that refineries produce more materials the lower ascension the player is, or the lower their /playtime is.

[inner karma]

Yeah maybe not the right terminology, but I think its okay to have a low/no requirement that gives you resources equivalent to what you would get from doing x amount of high level active work.

Assuming everyone has an even amount it certainly works in favor of those who don't have gear/al to do equivalent high level content.

[past birch]

As it stands: it's the most materials per player time in the game.

Both the AL0 beginner and the AL200 grinder are incentivized to ~only build refineries.
To the extent players don't do that, it's because it's mind-numbingly boring and people would rather turn a blind eye than accept it.

So in a limited scenario:

• beginner builds 10 refineries and fills them, then does AL0 appropriate content (non-anguished pve)
• grinder builds 10 refineries and fills them, then does AL200 appropriate content (well, let's just pretend ang1 requires AL200 and not ~AL20 😅)

The effort to fill 10 refineries takes up about a minute of each player's day -- it's not meaningfully subtracting from their normal gameplay/AL-appropriate pve content.

[inner karma]

Yeah I'm not saying the current state is good. Just that I think something is good to help onboard people into endgame, especially as the endgame pushes later. i don't think the mechanic hurts when its in a limited capacity.

And getting 10 dungeons worth of progress just for logging in can help bridge the gap which is currently pretty daunting.

[past birch]

Seeing it as a login bonus equivalent of dungeon completions is a good framing.
Someone running 10 refineries a day (routinely) is doing ~3.5k "extra" dungeons per year.

[main saffron]

Personally, I'd be okay with "one refinery per area, but as many running as you can feed." As in, you absolutely must move around to have more than one running at a time, but you can probably get 5-10 going just in the vicinity of your OT with minimal walking. More than that, if you're willing to put in the effort to travel, go for it! But you have to travel to each one to feed and to collect; no traveling with them once and then getting passive income forevermore thereafter.

...that was not supposed to be a reply

Sorry

[halcyon locust]

basicly when you build one refinerey in that area, it sticks to its center and cant be moved

[main saffron]

Yeah, essentially

[past birch]

I think if refineries had always worked the way people "expected" them to work (y'know, with the whole 'limit one per area' and all) then it would not be nearly as big of a problem.

It wouldn't be 1 minute to refill them anymore, at which point it is actually taking time away from other more meaningful pve activity.

[halcyon locust]

than the max vd is some kind of problem with 1.5km of view

[main saffron]

That's a valid point

I forget some people can get over double as much VD as me :/

[halcyon locust]

that would be about the limit for max refinerys for you rOT without moving

its not hard, change for it to realm seeker, throw in farsight and torch and there you go with a huge vd

[main saffron]

Issue is that my phone is a weird aspect ratio

It physically can't display more than around 700m

Hopefully this update helps with that!

[halcyon locust]

access developer option and change dpi is the only way

[main saffron]

cries in iPhone

[halcyon locust]

but you have to be carefully, since changing it to some bad ratio it can be really bad ending for your phone

[main saffron]

Yeah, I'm not the least tech-savvy person in the world lol. I know the risks of that. But afaik the iPhone doesn't offer that option anyway.

[violet robin]

It just keep the same issue, just more available for some/others.
Don't get me wrong, I love the gps things, but not this particular one.
Fyi, it has been tested and it's just a blast as long as you travel.

If I understood correctly your suggestion*

[main saffron]

Yeah, sounds like you did

[halcyon locust]

funny would be to find rarly wild refinerys

with a bit better ratio for the one time you fill it and get the mats sent "home"

[main saffron]

I feel like, as I proposed it, it would only ever be not-broken if you had to visit it in-person to feed it and to collect

Maybe not even then, idk

[halcyon locust]

it would depend on the amount again, finding one every 5-10km2 for example would hurt nothing

[violet robin]

Tested, broken 🤷🏻‍♂️

[halcyon locust]

but sure, not really neccesary

[naive widget]

Wdym by this

Who tested it and how was it broken

It's inherently limited by travel ability, in what way is it broken

[violet robin]

@azure sequoia sorry for the ping, if you don't mind sharing what you can regarding this ⬆️

[violet robin]

But I can answer too

When moving on car/public transport, you go though insane amount of circles/areas. Reference for it can be the PvP fights people are able to do/hour in car/public transport (on old system) : hundreds. It would just be the same for ref, and it basicaly means the issue with ability to use hundreds ref would just be available, especially for people using public transport to work/join their work.
When something duable is available, you can be sure it will be done 😅 (and it has been, for this particular thing)

And again, it absolutely doesn't mean I'm against gps things. Just not this one thing that would just create the same issue, and the same thread in 2 years 😥

[rare juniper]

Yeah "gatekeeping" such a heavy hitting resource farm behind GPS seems like a poor direction to take it to

[naive widget]

All of that requires your time and travel, which is significantly better than the existing implementation

[violet robin]

And I m totally fine with adding some other gps things, I love to play while Moving.

[naive widget]

You'd just have to tweak numbers

[violet robin]

It's not that much. It just mean it will remove/lower ability for some people to use it, while keeping it for others

[naive widget]

It doesn't have to be a heavy resource farm anymore because it won't be infinite refineries anymore

[violet robin]

Then what is the suggestion exactly ?

[naive widget]

Implementing it as a true gps aspect inherently limits how many refineries you can use

[rare juniper]

Limit of 10 active AND randomly generated?

[naive widget]

No, this is a rework

[rare juniper]

So no limit, GPS generated, but extremely rare?

[naive widget]

Something like that

Reduced rates if needed

[rare juniper]

I understand what you mean

[naive widget]

No longer is it an idle game

No longer is it infinite

[violet robin]

So, your suggestion is to keep ref as no limit, but you can't move them ?

[naive widget]

Kinda, but probably rarer than one per region

They'd be randomly generated buildings

[violet robin]

It just look like conq but you don't have to do anything. I see no point adding this tbh, but it's maybe me

[naive widget]

Similar to conq; but you'd be encouraged to visit those places multiple times each day

Conq does not accomplish that

Nerf the rates if needed

[rare juniper]

Current iteration encourages it a bit more, with the level requirements needed to unlock stuff

as far as Conq goes

[violet robin]

Would it really be a fun addition ?

[naive widget]

It wouldn't be as unfun as current state

[violet robin]

Not judging, just asking

[naive widget]

The GPS aspect is fun to many

[violet robin]

It's fun to me, a lot

But maybe not for this particular suggestion, unless there's some particular gameplay linked to it idk

I remember Fux talked about gameplay of draging something to OT, not ref obviously, but this may be fun to me*

[naive widget]

Decorations. Let us find wild/rare decorations and drag them back to OT

@thorn ivy ship it

[violet robin]

wow this ping 😅 yes is was part of the idea.

[naive widget]

Haha I didn't actually ping him, just edited it in

[thorn ivy]

[naive widget]

Ok but how great is this idea

If you are the first person to find a randomly spawned decoration, you can claim it and then move it

They spawn sparsely once a week and despawn if unclaimed after that week maybe

Some will be rarer/more unique

[thorn ivy]

i'm not following, can you provide a chart of this?

[naive widget]

Hope that helps

[ripe storm]

I do kind of like seeing decor and always knowing another player cared to put it there

It's one of the few ways you see others in the world

[thorn ivy]

green is still deity right

[naive widget]

Deities have more fun

[hasty chasm]

funny to see my chart in here

[naive widget]

I had reposted it recently so it was handy to use it on mobile

[azure sequoia]

not a problem. I'll share my story with refineries.

i didn't start using refineries until after AL 150.

In February this year, I started to build refineries on all roads I travel to work/home. I travel up to 3 hours a day on weekdays.

Took me 3-4 weeks to get the whole network to be fully functioning with a refinery on every possible spot. More than 1k refineries in the network.

I did not move any to my OT. I'm only able to grab/fill once a day.

On days that I travel a bunch, I gather around 700-800 materials of every type.

Then back at home at the end of the day I spend a half hour at the Grand market buying supplies with my practically infinite gold.

I would have a grand advantage being one who is on the move a lot if uncapped refineries were to only be available to an area and not be able to be moved around still.

[violet robin]

Thanks a lot for your answer 🙏🏻

[azure sequoia]

what I've been doing can be considered grinding. However,it certainly can not be considered difficult or engaging gameplay.

[naive widget]

Sure so I think decreasing rewards from a system like that can be interesting enough

Reworking refineries to be locked locations, more sparse than the example above, and possibly generate less mats

The benefit would be the GPS aspect of finding them and possibly mapping IRL routes around them

[azure sequoia]

got to ask yourself, do we want Orna to be a gps cookie clicker game or something more difficult/engaging?

[naive widget]

Got to ask yourself, why do you think a minor progression system will take over the game if it is heavily contained

There are several problems with refineries as they are. It is infinitely scaling and requires virtually no time investment

Making them impossible to scale infinitely, requiring actual time investment, and then decreasing the rewards to ensure it's aligned with time/reward ratios sounds just fine

And the benefit of including this type of gameplay is encouraging some more GPS play. If there is risk of spoofers abusing this, I'd understand it not being worth it

[azure sequoia]

we do have small amount of random mats popping up in seemingly random spots. Refineries set up like towers and monuments on a weekly thing with smaller mat ratios still gps cookie clicking to me

[naive widget]

Why is that a bad thing to include though

You may not like it and that's fine, but I'm not saying this should be a core gameplay loop

[azure sequoia]

its not inherently bad. i happen to enjoy mindless cookie clicking things

[mortal jacinth]

Could be a potential future-state alternative, but it sounds like a rework of the whole system, which would require additional dev time, and likely has a number of its own problems that would need to be considered first. Seems easier, at least for the time being, to implement the fix that's already been pushed to beta.

[naive widget]

Yup agreed

I am all for the current fix

I am simply fighting against the idea that a reworked implementation would be busted/impossible

[mortal jacinth]

I propose Odie add cats, which can be lured to areas with treats, and then herded back to your OT for... I don't know, stuff and things?

[thorn ivy]

Finally we’re back on topic

[fierce abyss]

I don't like Refineries, and with them being limited to 10, will likely just tear all of mine down. Towns are a cluttered mess, which demotivates me from improving my town.

As for new players not catching up, not every high AL player even uses Refineries. Also, material creep appears to be a thing as it gets easier to get mats with each new update anyway. Earlier advantages are slowly countered by faster farming.

[woven plover]

Limiting refineries (or refinery activity) after years of use by the top players only serves to widen the power gap and ensure there's no catching up for newer players. You could revert their ascensions and delete the materials, but that's a slap in the face to the most dedicated players. What about the alternative of just removing the area restriction? Let everyone build as many refineries as they care to feed. The ROI is a tiny fraction of materials invested anyway.

I say this as an AL 194 player who has done the leg work to build well over 100 refineries and feed them daily for years. This approach just feels like gatekeeping. If there's a plan to replace them with someone, why not develop that first?

[thorn ivy]

That’s sorta the idea here. Unrestricted building but then a limit on how many can be active at once

In terms of the building the replacement first - we did: it’s Guilds

[woven plover]

If I can instantly warp to my OT from anywhere, anytime, why and O can only actually use 10, why would I build more or elsewhere?

[thorn ivy]

Some like having stuff to interact with while out and about, from what I’ve gathered

[woven plover]

Perhaps it's worth revisiting the guild exchange rates, then. Most guilds are not worth the effort when it takes hundreds of proofs of monument to get 6 orichalcum.

Thanks for engaging with me, by the way. I do appreciate you being accessible.

[violet robin]

It's something planed

[woven plover]

A couple examples from today. As you can see, I don't even have the required spelunking guild level because I don't find it to be a worthwhile use of my play time.

[fierce abyss]

I do agree about exchange rates. Especially in regards to how... off some of them are. The Spelunking Guild being the most obvious example.

[mortal jacinth]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that a refinery cap will widen any gaps. The number of players who invest in a ton of refineries is probably reasonably small—most new players are unlikely to be building that many. Instituting a 10-refinery cap inhibits the progress of the high-AL players with established refinery farms, which I'd think would make it at least marginally easier for new players (most of whom were probably never gonna build more than 10, anyway) to "catch up".

[violet robin]

Yes, there are issues with some guilds. You're specificaly showing 2 guilds with low rewards mats/time.
But it can be improved. And I truly think the best for the game is to focus on trying to improve them. While removing ref.

[fierce abyss]

Oh this is v true.

[small hare]

Pair that with making material rolls either:
-Same for everyone

Or

-Roll more high level Mats the higher your Ascension Level gets and I do think people will really catch up to some extent

However, I'm for the cap being 5 to match Aethric so 10 seems fine to me 🤷‍♂️ regardless

[fierce abyss]

Anything that reduces town clutter makes me happy. Make Refineries immovable and add a Grand Bestiary. <_< I wanna make a clean town.

[valid shore]

id argue if mat rolls are tied to client like avarice shop then itd be more thematic and also generally more fun to have it tied to guild level. Having more options open up at certain levels f.e. and like a weekly sale or something at level 85 f.e. where the random mats are cheaper.

[small hare]

I don't quite understand what you mean on the first part

Second part sounds kinda fun!

[pallid crest]

Excellent point

[valid shore]

sorry I mean if material rolls arent the same for everyone. idk if its correct in this scenario but I generally use the terms client side for things tied to the individual user and server side for things that are tied to the server and as such are the same for everyone. prob incorrect terminology here 💀

[valid shore]

Will also add that if people think they are going to "catch up" they are sorely mistaken lol. Those who abuse refineries are already 100s of steps ahead of you and trying to catch up by outrefining them is about the worst possible solution to that problem. By the time you build a couple hundred refineries and dedicate your life to the game to get 100ALs theyll have another 150 under their belt 💀 Refineries are a simple issue of unfun gameplay being too rewarding and not one person who actually refills their refineries with their own hands will genuinely wan to keep gameplay that is akin to tortorous work all in the sake of material gains, doing that when you could be engaging with the numerous new guilds that offer engaging gameplay instead.

[violet robin]

Alright, as an ORN member, time to summarize this thread : Odie, everyone wants a grand bakery, because refineries were such a pain, better to give everyone baguettes

As, technically, those are smaller pains

[wispy heath]

Deceit detected, applying appropriate punishment.

[violet robin]

Holy

[fierce abyss]

I FULLY endorse this message. Replace all Refineries with Bakeries. Add a Baker's Guild.

[mortal jacinth]

pain

au chocolat

[woven plover]

An industrial center in lieu of many refineries does appeal . IC:refinery:: Grand market:shop

[fierce abyss]

Grand Refinery! Viva la revolucion!

[past birch]

can it have Cooking Mama style minigames?

[velvet fable]

The reason refineries are unfair in the first place is because of the existance of the shop system and its materials and dismantable stuff. If the the team would want to nerf the grand market, they would not have touched refineries instead, i assume, cause both options together would miss the mark completely

[humble pecan]

Cats that go out and complete quests and bring back mats is meta gameplay loop and I'm here for it

[velvet fable]

Replace refineries with cat litter boxes, and the more cats you gathered, the more materials you extract from them, that they swallowed.
Also the cats are very gluttenous.

[naive widget]

This is verifiably false. Refineries were an issue before grand market existed

[fair parcel]

Most ppl here know that shop/gm->refinery loop is the problem not ref alone. Why bashing only refinery.

Ppl dont use it bc how unfun it is to feed those refs regardless the reward. I also remove all my refs bc of that and the lag it causes, so it deserves a change to sth better while still keeping its function.

It could promote other part of the game too. Grand refinery scaling with exploration, requiring deepshard to level up, pairing it with town development making my villagers my slav... i mean workers, maintaining moral for higher output, adding some story to it...
Just limiting it is boring

[fair parcel]

Gm is just a big shop
Without infinite mat from shop/gm, u will eventually run out of mat to feed ref without playing the game
100 ref use 12000 mat lol that's a lot

[naive widget]

It's not hard to stockpile those mats

[fair parcel]

By playing the game yes that's the point

Not mindlessly clicking shop/gm

[naive widget]

Do you think playing the game means you get to turn all your trash mats into ALs

[rancid sandal]

I'm not a fan of the update i honestly think at least increase the cap from 120 mats to 200 or more

[naive widget]

Bc mindlessly clicking refineries is also mindless clicking

Refineries are free progression

It's like taking your trash to the curb and the garbage man gives you $100 per bag

[fair parcel]

Everyone should be able to do it that's what i want

Tackle both things not ref alone

[naive widget]

Grand market does nothing alone

[fair parcel]

It's giving elstone, mandrake, dayleaf and other mat for free

[naive widget]

Yeah that's true

But that's not dependent on refinery amassing, and it's not scaleable like refineries

Just means those mats won't be a problem for anyone

[fair parcel]

U technically can buy those infinitely in the late game by mindlessly clicking
That's unfair effort-to-reward ratio

[naive widget]

Kind of, but those mats alone do not equate to progression

It's as if ALs simply don't need those mats

[fair parcel]

Until u unluckly get mat block with 16000 dayleaf and elstone combined

Dayleaf only droped from carman it's not an easy farm

[naive widget]

Yeah so grandmarket basically eliminates some of those harder mats for everyone

[fair parcel]

So do u think ppl should play more, if yes then limit refresh will do it the same as refinery
But why protecting refresh anyway? It's half of the problem that brings us here

[pallid crest]

Before the gm you could just build normal shops and accumulate the exact same mats. Can we please stop excusing refineries when they were already busted way before gm?

[fair parcel]

Refresh is the issue just limit it
Why let it get away? Either that or fix broken gold economy

But why did gm exist when shops->refinery was also a problem back then?

Shops also have its limit after gm

[velvet fable]

Okay, shop system, my bad.

[violet robin]

You can remove shops, ref would still be an issue

[fair parcel]

without shop, u will have to play to maintain it

[violet robin]

Gm enhanced a lot this issue, but it was already a know issue before it

[silver wigeon]

back when gm didnt exist, i cant even run 40 refs reliably iirc

when gm exist, its a free real estate

[fair parcel]

Ok then remove gm problem fixed

[young rampart]

I hate both of them

Menuing sucks gm & refineries are terrible gameplay

[violet robin]

Currently, gm into ref is the best to AL. Is this fine ? I don't think so, for several reasons shared here and before.
Removing shop, and the best would be to massively alts to... ref as much as you can. Is this fine ? I don't think so either.

[violet robin]

It doesn't fix it

[fair parcel]

Well problem is unfair effort-to-rewards ratio
Increase effort and boredom is one way maybe

[young rampart]

I dont think a majority of people want a boring feature though, especially if its meta

[fair parcel]

Yes limit it is also boring as i have mentioned

[violet robin]

We have here a possibility to go into something a bit (way..) more balanced regarding progression, with engaging play, via helping the studio focusing on guilds, mats balance between contents and so on.

[young rampart]

Are you refering to grand marketing becoming over used?

[fair parcel]

U have never refresh 1000 times for elstone and dayleaf blocked? Lucky u

[young rampart]

If so id say grand markets do also have issues which many have pointed out and want changed, but this doesnt mean refineries shouldnt be changed.

The devs are working on one thing at a time which is still a step in the right direction

[violet robin]

As mentioned before, it was probably (and that's my opinion) better to remove ref back then when it started to create balance issues. We can't move back in time. But better now than never, IMHO.

[twin oar]

i ever use gm for buying stone block lol

[fair parcel]

Yes i said both r problens

[twin oar]

many common mats is wild with high mats lock

[fair parcel]

U could balance it by letting everyone use it and dont gatekeep it using boredom

I prefer a more engaging approach and let everyone use it

Dont just consider limiting it the only way

[azure jungle]

Deleting them entirely is another great option

[fair parcel]

Yes it is but i like to keep its function

I need a refinery-like system at least using 5000 mat a day for 100000 baldr

[young rampart]

Sorry if im misunderstanding but the problem with engagement is that refineries are boring and having them unlimited means people who want to play the meta will end up refilling refineries forever which is widely considered unengaging. Adding unlimited refineries for everyone is "fair" but not fun

[azure jungle]

I find it wild this thread is still this active haha

[young rampart]

It had like 4x more messages than the main update thread on the first day xD

[fair parcel]

U should not be able to refil refinery forever as u dont have an endless source of mat without playing

Tackle that source of unfair endless mat is a way

[young rampart]

Even if we ignore the fact that common materials are insanely easy to farm, refilling you refineries every time you get another 120 excess materials is still not entertaining for many.

[fair parcel]

I did suggest grand refinery scaling with exploration, few thounds mat a time a day and done

[fair parcel]

A full version here

I want both to be changed

A more engaging refinery system, it cound not be done without tackling shop/gm

[young rampart]

Could work, if the material amount isnt insanely high it can fix the refineries being op issue while adding more depth to it but the current change to refineries is still a good temporary fix. Most people agree 5-10 refineries is a fair amount of materials to refine /day

[fair parcel]

Yes that's why i speak up since most ppl here just dont talk about a possible change other than limit

And 10 refinery is not enough for me and 2400 mat not enough since i do 5 towers a day

[young rampart]

I think most ppl arguing against the change are saying it shouldnt be nerfed at all so messages may be misinterpreted

[naive widget]

No matter how many mats people have, there will ALWAYS be excess

[worn dock]

Idk but i am ok with 5

[young rampart]

I can get that 10refineries isnt enough to refine all your materials if you play alot but most people still agree that 5-10 is sufficient so it would be more healthy for the game to keep it low

[naive widget]

And refineries turn excess into treasure for no cost

[worn dock]

If u can do 5 tower daily, mats lock isn't that much trouble

[young rampart]

Ascensions are meant to get harder as you get more

[worn dock]

Guess what I nearly hit 250 with only 5 refinery

Ik

[violet robin]

Oh c'mon

[young rampart]

I havent even hit 30 yet but ive seen people get to al 50 in a year without refineries TwT

[naive widget]

20023/20023

[fair parcel]

Well i dont use refinery but i want a more exciting change to it
Limit to 10 after years is bad even for a stepping stone

[naive widget]

Why

[violet robin]

(5 towers a day = around 5k mats froms floors rewards, I don't understand your point here tbh)

[young rampart]

After 3 years of starving id eat stale bread over nothing. Devs have been busy with stuff

[pale pawn]

You're the best, don't let go of kliktu💪

[fair parcel]

I need 5000 at least since most i get is baldr from guardian

[silver wigeon]

wonder if anything's gonna change, judging from the current polls

[naive widget]

Wdym, 53% voted for a 5-10 limit

[young rampart]

Honestly 33% for no limit is more than I thought it would be, still 66% think it needs a limit

[violet robin]

There are biais as usual on this, on both sides

I wish those who left because of this kind of things could vote, but it is what it is 🤷🏻‍♂️

[velvet fable]

Vote? Where?

I blinked, is it gone already? :o

[velvet fable]

In a year is really not that hard to 50 tho

[wispy heath]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370416842065313852

[young rampart]

I play very casually, slowly climbing for the past 5 years. Still havent hit t11 yet xD

50als in 1 year seems like alot to me

[wispy heath]

(Don't forget https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370478253873303653 while you're at it)

[velvet fable]

Suprised there is no 0 on refinery vote :o
Tho im glad it exists

[velvet fable]

Answered to all of them!
May i suggest add an option of "i would to tackle anguish in group content, but i am not content with current party play to do it" cause i think a good chunk of the votes of making it solo is cause party play is so unintuitive?

[azure jungle]

Not my solo vote!

[wispy heath]

Can't really edit the polls but I could make a new one

[velvet fable]

If you could bring it to the ORN it would be really cool! As if the new horde content is solo aimed at groups on higher anguish, current partyplay is the biggest stepping stone i see

[wispy heath]

There, that should be able to figure out what the problem(s) are, and if fixing them would make people more likely to be content with party play in anguish

[main saffron]

Re, option 4: Because lately Ive had to spend large periods away from my OT. Party play is often undoable for those who, for any reason, can’t be at their OTs every day.

[velvet fable]

reactivating your WV from away would be cool, does mean youre not bound to rearranging your origin town if you go somewhere for a while

[wispy heath]

Fair enough - though that's less preferring solo play and more like being forced into solo play, isn't it?

[velvet fable]

Thank you a lot!! That matters a lot to me. The chance of seeing party play shine in the glory it deserves would be so cool :o
Also i dont know if youre allowed to disclose that but i saw adventurer's guild getting flairs and all too.. will we get a secret release with anguish 2.0? :o

[wispy heath]

Heavily doubt it

We also have our own unique traveller's guild flairs

[main saffron]

Yeah, though that’s kind of the same? You could probably phrase it as “I sometimes prefer solo play because wayvessel management is difficult”?

[velvet fable]

shame. I liked the concept, im sad it got put to the side for now, but i also understand why thats not a priority at all

[wispy heath]

You know what fair enough

we should.. probably not be in this channel lol

[autumn laurel]

I am not sure orichalcum and Elstone were sold in normal shops. Platinum as well?

[main saffron]

Platinum is definitely sold in shops

[hasty chasm]

#🍂│late-game-⭐10 message

[thick belfry]

I don't understand, if a player has 50 refineries, after the update he has 10?

[pallid crest]

Still has 50, but can only use 10 at the same time

[thick belfry]

Thanks, that sounds awful, if a playar wanna use 50 at the same time, what's the problem?

[naive widget]

Read the thread

[rancid sandal]

So if we have more then the new maximum what happens when the upgrade date

[young rampart]

You dont have a limit on refineries built its on active refineries

So if you have 50 refineries only 10 can be used at a time

[modern jetty]

Sorry, my English is a bit bad, but I honestly don't understand why so many people are against refineries the way they are. If you don't want to waste time filling them and buying materials to feed them, don't do it. Those who dedicated their time to building more refineries are being harmed because some don't want to do it, it doesn't make sense.

[thorn ivy]

it's less about whether it should be allowed, it's moreso about how much a player should be allowed to earn from not actually playing the game

there needs to be a balance there

[thick belfry]

I agree with you, nobodies oblige players to feed refiners.
I think it's the same for fishing: good for farming, but I don't do it because it is boring

[fair parcel]

Well odie said that because it's an unfair effort-to-ratio.
Shop->refinery is also out of game design and it's not the purpose of refinery.
Refinery is supposed to be where u put excess mat earned by playing the game, which is killing monsters; this is a GPS RPG game btw, not by excessively buying mat from shops/grand market to refill them

[fair parcel]

Fishing is desgined to be a mini game and it also has cap while shop->refinery isn't

And ur not supposed to refresh a 1000 times bc it has a cost, just too small to be impactful, leading to shop>ref loop

[thick belfry]

Yeah, i trust in dev, they always do a good job with updates, so let's do that 💪🏻
Thanks again for all your work, this game is amazing

[modern jetty]

unfair effort? The time that a person wastes in joining several refineries, almost always spending gasoline and their vehicle to try to maximize their cultivation, the time they waste feeding them, the time they spend buying materials and it is still an unfair effort? I think the opposite, I think it is unfair to take this away from those who worked hard to have it.

[fair parcel]

obtaining a few thousands materials via grandmarket in a minute is unfair effort

Especially when the cost to refresh is too low in the late game that it's practically free mat

[modern jetty]

I could be wrong, but in my view, whoever is in favor of this change only benefits from the fact that someone else can't do it. In other words, I don't do it, I don't want anyone else to do it because they'll be stronger than me.

[azure jungle]

Many players that do run them want them changed 😅

This conversation is many years old

[fair parcel]

I want both to change, refinery has its own problems

[azure jungle]

Its not a new thing

[silver wigeon]

for the most part, and the one that doesnt run/have many of them

probably

GM escalates refinery's "problem", personally im perfectly fine with how it is pre-GM

[modern jetty]

Yes, I agree, but this change of limiting it to 10 refineries is not going to solve the problem.
Much less increasing the amount of cultivation in them. I think it's all complicated and the worst part is that nothing I can think of could help this problem in any way. Whatever is done will please some and make others angry. It's complicated. I wouldn't want to be in Odie's shoes. But it's unfair to those who have already made an effort.

[valid shore]

flawed arguement. the majority of people who want to see them change is because of how awful it is to "interact with them". the point of the arguement seemingly everyone in here continues to forget is not about game balance itself but how awful they are to interact with. guilds have increased mat gains exponentially but people arent complaining because the gameplay to coincide witht hem is generally more entertaining then just alt spamming or refineries.

people hate refineries because they are very lucrative and they are closer to a job or chore then it is any fun or any gameplay. its awful for those who dont particiapte because now you fall behind for not wanting to engage in an awful tedious system and those who do participate hate throwing their life away to spamming the same 4 buttons on the UI.

it directly hurts the health of the endgame and if I may speak bluntly for a second, heavily helps people using bots/autoclickers. I refuse to believe that these high 100 into 200 AL players who barely touch the base game are actually sitting spending 1/4-1/2 their day every day just buying from the shop and filling refineries. its inhuman levels of boredom and repetition. I am someone who built 100+ refinieries and can attest to it being one of the downright most awful things Orna can offer. It feels awful to fill, it feels awful to avoid, it feels unrewarding to earn the mats, it feels even worse knowing someone else has gained exponentially more then me while sleeping in bed.

[worn dock]

So u say u dont pay effort for other source of al mats huh

Many one make the math already so i will not mention detail more

But by far doing refine is as good as 5 times tower or 20 times ang....in the time cost to exchange

So just one way to get massive refine and gain passive gaining from it , not fairly play for other one pay time and effort for real game playing content...

To sum up, if someone say they do a. Lot to get mats with refinery, then try to spend time to play real game to see how to get mats from above other source.

[modern jetty]

I disagree, refineries are very good but they alone will not bring many benefits. Those who want to evolve have to do the other ways. No one said that refineries were to be restricted and stop doing all or others. I agree that it is annoying to fill them. I myself go months without filling them, but when I have time, I fill them because it will help me get promoted. My point is that there has to be change, but limiting them is not the ideal change. But that's everyone's point of view.

[valid shore]

They alone do bring lots of benefits. Seeing people in the 100s of ALs without even 1m total kills says it all. Materials are THE biggest bottleneck in the game so this being the most efficient source by its very nature makes it a massive benefit.

I agree that it is annoying to fill them. I myself go months without filling them, but when I have time, I fill them because it will help me get promoted.
this is exactly my point. hate to fill them but feel you need to for progression, awful system.

Sure you can argue its not entirely "ideal" but there isnt an ideal solution to a problem like this. Simply put the game is better off without them then with them and as such this change is for the best for EVERYONE involved, not just one crowd.

[pallid crest]

Won’t bring many benefits? They are mathematically the fastest way to progress in the game, by far. This has already been mathed out by multiple people (and their conclusions are available in this thread for anyone to read).
The only thing wrong with this change is how long it took to make

A system that makes you progress faster by menuing instead of actually playing the game should never be allowed to exist

(And this is coming from someone with a ton of them. I can’t wait to be unable to burn them all down)

[fair parcel]

Are there any reasons to keep shop/gm refresh unlimited?
If not why dont limit it, number of shop has a limit already

[valid shore]

https://youtu.be/-iU9c9Ru8U4?si=jTkno7E_ihtNnK5K

Got a link for anyone who'd like to see this enthralling gameplay. Not seen is: shop buying or collecting mats.

[hasty chasm]

if anyone needs a link to the math

invite link to cade labs:
https://discord.gg/ytBg3jvR
link to the discussion:
https://discord.com/channels/996100509511463012/1326204365983318160

[valid shore]

Are there any reasons to keep Refineries unlimited?

[azure bane]

If we change it now are we just making it harder for people to catch up?

[valid shore]

As of now I havent seen one person defend Refinieries for their gameplay they offer or because they enjoy it. Even those who argue to keep it say it should stay because it already exists essentially.

[valid shore]

#1369697245980786729 message

[pallid crest]

Also this: #1369697245980786729 message

[past birch]

also this: https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/1369697245980786729/1370435969853165691

[azure bane]

This can go back to limit AL's honestly. Another thing that is to late and a bigger problem than this. That is why we are talking about this.

[fair parcel]

Grand ref with no cap is fine by me
There is no way u can sustain without free mat from shop/gm and not playing the game

[valid shore]

That ship sailed ages ago. This problem has remained a static issue and far more of an issue.

[pallid crest]

That’s an argument that the community has already weighted on. The vast majority said they want uncapped ALs. Limiting refineries let’s newer players catch up

[valid shore]

All I will say is this entirely ignores the bot arguement and benefits them even more then it would a normal player and as such is a bad solution.

[pallid crest]

Refineries were a massive problem even before the GM. There’s thousands of messages in this discord attesting to just that

[past birch]

The biggest way that refineries have allowed new players to catch up is that it burned out a whole bunch of endgame players who quit, so new players were gathering materials while their "competition" was playing a better game. 🤷‍♂️

[azure bane]

How can they catch up when you limit the best way to catch up? The high AL players are still doing anguish way faster than any new player for mats.

What about after 100 als you can only have 10 refineries.

[valid shore]

By the time that player gets 100 Brye is now AL500 and you are complaining that you cant catch up despite wasting so much time in refinieries.

[pallid crest]

Read the comment I linked. Even if new players build 300 refineries (which most won’t) they’ll only be on par with the passive gains. If you cap everyone to 10, everyone is getting the benefits from those 10, so the gap doesn’t widen anymore

The screenshots posted by Geppu really paint a picture for me. He and Brye have pretty much similar stats over boss kills, monsters, dungeons etc. But Geppu has 180AL and Brye has 300. Taking scaling into account, that’s about triple the progression while having the same gameplay statistics

[sterile locust]

Leave refineries like they are right now and make them explode after AL100 lol

[valid shore]

The only way Refineries could allow you to catch up to top endgame players would mean youd have to spend likely 4-6 hours a day on refineries alone. If you think UI spamming that much every day for days/weeks/months on end is what would keep people around and playing Orna then you are asking for this game to die.

[azure bane]

lol 4-6 hours a day on refineries haha just a little inflated there id say.

[valid shore]

to catch up? from a new players perspective? Brand new mid T10 id assume everyone is refering to. Averaging out the time to build relocate, time to refill and collect, time to spam shops for the mats to fill them then do that twice a day, then do that for days and weeks and months.

[silver wigeon]

gotta take in account whether or not the grind is efficient or not
ang levels used in towers, materials bought by using guild currencies / farmed through kraids, and others

but yes

||korns are very expensive when used to farm polly/morrigan compared to buying it with guild currencies, for example||

[fair parcel]

Ref is unfun to use -> grand ref
Odie talked about how much a player can earn from not playing the game -> force them to play, limit refresh

[pallid crest]

If there’s someone I know is efficient, it’s Geppu

[pallid crest]

You’ll still have a lot more benefit from the same time invested than someone who doesn’t have hundreds of refineries

[fair parcel]

Hundreds of refineries require u to visit hundreds of areas

That's the effort

[pallid crest]

Once. And then you get those benefits ad eternum

[fair parcel]

Yes i will when i have grand ref with no limit just like everyone else

Hundreds of areas is not that many also

[pallid crest]

That would be the death of Orna lol

Anyway, I don’t know why we all keep talking in circles. Everyone in this thread has already stated what they think and made their case. It’s up to NF to decide now

[worn dock]

Orna now is refinery building chase ,for al pushing

https://tenor.com/view/change-my-mind-gif-11630051

[past birch]

... now? 😅
Here's some chatter from 2022 about how the endgame is just refineries (and alts):
https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/905399265784913960/974565575546249216

I miss Ryzzo. Another long-time player (and former ORNer) that quit.
It's a bit of necromancy, but he said this a few months before he took off for good:
https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/1101540711322619914/1101905928086884373

The mat grind is absolutely brutal and the least engaging part of Orna by a longshot. Alt grinding and multiboxing and refinery dragging and dropping is just awful and not fun.

[worn dock]

Ah i mean it is a meta for long time just not only now but yeah who got higher refine for today always gain more benefit before something chages

Now or never it is general meaning

[past birch]

Oh like people are gonna run out and try to run a bajillion refineries now after this potential change in beta? Yeah maybe.

[worn dock]

I could say player do it as habit will go on their work nothing hurt

Before it has any changes, no one can deny the best method to havest mats and passive income so why not

[violet robin]

Can't agree more. The "the best party play is with your friend" by Dangy seems a bit old too 🥹

[pallid crest]

Super excited for the resurgence of party play with Ang2.0. Hopefully all the latency issues and such can get tackled as well

[azure sequoia]

that's what I did 😅

had a feeling refineries would finally get addressed back in February and wanted to tryout mass refineries like the low metrics/bonkers Ascension players before it's gone.

[fair parcel]

tbh, i'm fine with that as long as u play the game. The only part I dont like about refinery is that it's unfun to manage many refineries I prefer grand refinery with no cap in this case, an QOL improvement.
The real problem to me is that u can buy mat from shop/gm with little to no cost at all to refill refineries. There is a refresh cost, which doesn't have much impact in the late game, leading to unbalanced, unfair part of the game.

[covert roost]

There are guilds, get your c.ort there. 🤷‍♂️

[fair parcel]

yeah I don't really think there is a good way to farm it, even alt kingdom can go bankrupt. Best option is to keep farm dungeons and tower and get it through EOD and floor rewards, then spend guild currency to get it when it shows up in guild.

[covert roost]

You get 13 c.ort per ang50 horde boss dung. Do just simple 10 daily and you have 1000/week.

Or 70 daily to have 1000/day.

Time is only real currency and Rafineries bend that against other content senselessly.

[fair parcel]

or Odie could just up refresh cost to 100 billion gold, with the cap of 2.9 trillion gold, ppl will just have gold bankrupt for the first time in game

[worn dock]

Realm ore is harder

And mats that can get in raid non event or event somewhat lighter your work like dramatically. Some boss mats, the way only to wait for it in shop and have enough to buy

[fair parcel]

Come to think of it, a 30-min endless run at 500-600f gives ~100 billion gold. With 100 billion per refresh, you'd need at least 4 refreshes and 4 endless runs to maintain 12000 ref, around 120 mins.

12000 ref using green mat gives 113 of each material. Over 62 days of 120 min endless runs, 12000 Ref gives 7006 of each type, or 7006/120= ~58.38 each type of mat per min.

For comparison, floor rewards from 5 towers is 5000 random mat. Killing 1 guardian per floor, it will take 40-50 min to complete 5 towers. There are 62 types of mat, so after 62 days of doing 5 towers for floor rewards only, u would have roughly 5000 of each type of materials. That's 5000 for 50 mins per day, or 5000/50= 100 each type of mat per min.

So... Remove shop refresh, impose a 40,000% tariff on gm refresh and Make Orna Great Again.

[covert roost]

Or we could just limit rafineries ....

[violet robin]

Again, ref was already an issue before GM, gm just increased this issue drastically, it doesn't mean it was fine before GM. Hello to all those nice dudes who left the game because of this issue already long before the gm thing. Tbh, I don't really understand why there are so many ideas to keep this thing that is more of an exploit than anything else available, when we could just - a bit late, I know - remove this with limiting ref.

[fair parcel]

After gm, shops is limited to 10
But yeah i'm just bored and hate shop refresh

[dapper dagger]

Whether refineries were an issue before Grand Market is a bit subjective. You may feel they were, others may feel they weren't. People come and go from video games for a number of reasons. Many people quit over wayvessels but that singular patch probably did more to grow the playerbase than any other. Obviously many do not not feel they are an issue, whereas I feel they are.

In the end, the most important factor is trying to find a healthy balance with NF's vision for how they want the game to play and creating an environment to attract a continuous stream of new steady players. From that viewpoint, there's certainly nothing wrong with having a component of the game based on offline progression as evidenced by the popularity of idle games.

[young rampart]

If you are talking about nf vision for the game, odie said refineries arent something they were proud of as a studio in terms of progression. On top of that a majority of players think the limit is needed so it would make sense to nerf it

[ripe storm]

#1370416842065313852 message
It seemed like it was mostly the "no limit" group asking Odie to poll limiting refineries, but then it turns out a huge portion of people feel like 10 is still too many 😆

[young rampart]

Yeah, still good to have more information though

[ripe storm]

For sure, polling it was definitely correct. I just think the outcome is funny

[past birch]

I wish 0 was an option on the poll, just for completeness

[worn dock]

0 and 5 is no diff

Player will forget it if the outcome reward is tiny

Like in hoa 5 refinery and most of us don't know it exist to do

[naive widget]

2x is a diff

[pallid crest]

While I wish it was an option (as I would have voted for it) having one third of the community voting for unlimited means there’s clearly a reason to keep refineries as a system around, though obviously with a cap in place

[past birch]

I'm under no illusion that the hard-liner anti-idle opinion ("0 refineries, delete refineries") is the most common. 😅 But I would like the "0" data point, like I said, for completeness; as a measurement of that percentage of players that don't see refineries as adding any value to the game.

In every refinery thread for years the thought has always been about compromise. The number between 0 and infinity is roughly 5-10.

[dapper dagger]

I think it would have been better to perhaps poll A Simple Eliminate Refineries/Cap Refineries/ Do not cap refineries first.

Then if the majority favored capping, bore down into acceptable cap numbers

Since Discord does not allow complex polls

[past birch]

(Just reading the poll)
As it stands atm with 242 votes, only 1/3rd of the playerbase wants uncapped refineries.

There is an unmeasured, unrevealed preference for 0.

[pallid crest]

The problem with a poll like this is you could have something like a 30/30/40 split. Which would cause the uncapped camp to say they won the poll, despite a majority of players wanting some sort of change.

I’m under no illusion that outright deleting refineries is out of the question (unfortunately), as from a dev perspective it could be seen as too radical/alienating for players

[dapper dagger]

I'm not a huge fan of refineries themselves, though I do like the idle game aspect of them. Just wished it was fleshed out into something a bit...more

[ripe storm]

Your first sentence isn't a hypothetical, it's what's about to happen when the poll ends

However it's pretty easy to read that "some kind of cap" has a lot more votes total than "uncapped"

[main saffron]

I am waiting for someone to try and argue “but the plurality wanted no limits!”

Aaand reading further, I see others had the same thought

Though in this case it’s pretty easy to point out that “10 or fewer” has more votes than “no limit”

[violet robin]

Yes I agree, sorry if it was a bit too much of an emotional answer 🙏🏻

[echo needle]

I only have eight. Does that mean I'll need to drag two more over to my OT? 🤣

[wispy heath]

No, this patch comes with the removal of the one per area restriction

[echo needle]

Gotta Catch 'Em All...

[pallid crest]

Now that two thirds of the community has voted for capping refineries, can we change the discussion from “should we cap them” to “what should the cap be”?

If we want to use the poll has a data point, we could average out all the votes from people that voted for capping them and see what we get.

That would give us (5x65 + 10x69+ 15x8 + 20x16 + 25x10) / 168 = 10.14

[ripe storm]

And suddenly we're back to where we started with that number lol

So maybe Odie just got it right the first time

[pallid crest]

Actually crazy how it gets that exact result

[past birch]

Makes it easy for NF, I guess. Got it right on the money on the first shot, ship it 🚢

[fierce abyss]

If the issue with Refineries is because of the shop to refinery pipeline, why not just remove shop refreshing?

Imo, simultaneously do both. Refinery gameplay is weird, and the fact that anyone would sit in their shop and repeatedly refresh it to advance is weird.

You could also soft cap shop refreshing. Make it go up in price exponentially.

[ripe storm]

The grand market was added to solve the issue of needing dozens of shops to grind for certain materials. It was a 1/2 punch with Guilds for the replacement of refineries

Guilds and the Grand market now comfortably exist, so refineries can fade out

[fierce abyss]

Then remove or limit shop refreshing, add better ways to farm those materials, and limit Refineries.

[ripe storm]

If refineries are limited refreshing the grand market isn't an issue at all

[fierce abyss]

I like the concept of Refineries. You can turn piles of useless stuff into cool stuff.

If the primary way to farm certain materials is to spam refresh the GM, in my opinion you absolutely still have a problem.

That'll be the mat block that ends me. There's no way I'm gonna menu through ALs.

[naive widget]

Atm I just buy it when it refreshes naturally. But that's all just preference

I'm sure over time they will continue to add monsters that help farm certain problem mats

[pallid crest]

And that’s why they’re not getting removed, just capped to not be abusable

NF proposed it, we polled it and the majority of the community agreed. Can we stop going back to things that have been said a thousand times and discuss what the cap should be instead?

[valid shore]

ye tbh these are points made before. this is my own opinion ofc but I feel like the numbers speak for themselves on a 10 cap and I feel the conversation has grown redundant of new people coming along and making repetitive arguments that have already been exhausted. May be genuinely beneficial at this point to lock this thread and direct discussion of the beta to the things that actually need worked out/feedback as this is sort of a lightning rod that is wasting energy at this point.

[fierce abyss]

"Grand Refinery", refines at 10x Refinery speed, can store 30x the current number of mats so it can run longer as a nearly passive mat income, and it can declutter my OT.

[pallid crest]

So 30 refineries that clear out every 72 minutes? Sounds a bit excessive when looking at the poll results 😅

IMO, grand refinery should just be a 10x refinery capacity (assuming NF goes with the 10 refinery cap), no change to work speed or anything else

[valid shore]

Grand Refinery has been mentioned like a million times. If Odie wanted to do that I think he would have heard it by now. Again, this thread has just devolved into repeating itself. Numbers really speak for itself at this point.

[fierce abyss]

Shore. I just wanna have Refineries and not have a cluttered OT.

[median viper]

https://hq.resources-game.ch/en/

this is what you want

[fierce abyss]

If multiple people come in at multiple times, they're going to repeat the same topics. It isn't a problem.

I don't see mention of classes, turn based combat, sprites, adventure, exploration, pvp, or any of the things I want on that page. o.o;

[median viper]

nope, just lots and lots of refining

warehouses for refined goods. a whole plethora of refinery types

it coulda been callled "Refineries"

[fierce abyss]

Looking at those results, almost all recent mentions have been in this thread. And as Refineries are brought up, it becomes a more important topic.

[naive widget]

I'm sure a grand refinery will be implemented if Odie wants to; the idea is there and known

[valid shore]

I dont wish to talk about this anymore this is really nothing left to add on the players side as I said. In the Devs hands as far as I see it.

[fierce abyss]

That's okay. =) I enjoyed the conversation.

Odie does mostly what the people express interest in. For instance, with CG he asked very specifically what people wanted, and we directly got badges out of that conversation as far as Im aware.

[valid shore]

YE its nothing against anyone just over the days I havent seen anymore unique discussion occur so I just feel its run its course and its better for everyone effort to be directed towards things that do need worked out/tested/weighed in on is all <3

[fierce abyss]

Until that loop of feedback doesn't yield fruit, I'll continuously express the things im interested in, why Im interested in them, and why I think those things benefit everyone and the game.

I dropped from this conversation for a couple of days for the same reason and came back to say most of the things I said before.

[ripe storm]

I agree with Higsby and I recommended that this thread get locked. The dead horse has been beaten to a pulp, every possible angle for limiting or not limiting refineries has been discussed, and the poll has concluded with a clear player sentiment.

[fierce abyss]

I selfishly see an opportunity to fix an issue I personally have, while also fixing the issue itself. When I expressed decluttering OT with a Grand Refinery the other day, I get a few lil upvotes. I just want to see my home again. I can't find my house anymore.

[ripe storm]

With how massive this beta is, the more facets of this beta that can be considered 'closed', the better

[naive widget]

All in favor of keeping Ceri homeless say aye

[median viper]

you could always place them far away

[rare juniper]

Aye

[fierce abyss]

Hey Im not homeless I just don't know where my house is :c I have one I swear!

[median viper]

my OT is spread out over like 2 sq km. then the problem will become, tho, that you wont want to move it ever

[fierce abyss]

I move my OT constantly. I'm nomadic. <_<

[median viper]

yea. we need a higher range for building placement & 1-2 aux wayvessels (only one active at a time) imo to fix this kinda issue

[fierce abyss]

But, my point is that if Refineries are being changed, I'd like to see this general change that I feel would both improve Refinery gameplay, and also improve Origin Town quality.

[pallid crest]

I think you’ll be hard pressed to find someone that wouldn’t prefer a grand refinery. It just might take more dev time than NF have right now

[fierce abyss]

Would it? Im not a designer, but removing Refineries in favor of a single large Refinery seems simpler than placing limiters on account wide Refinery usage. Though I guess said limiter has already been made.

Perhaps some difficulty comes in from spriting a new building.

[static blade]

Even it its "only" say 4 hours, its not worth the time spent currently when the proposed system fixes the main pain point

[violet robin]

I'm fine with 10, I'm afraid of a grand refinerie issue, when we ll all be happy until someone figure we can build one per area

Jk

[fierce abyss]

That's fair. I'm gonna lobby for it though. I think for many players, it would be worth the allocation of time vs other tasks of the same effort.

[violet robin]

Tbf, it was exactly the first message sent on the refinerie thread, one and a half year ago I guess 😅

[fierce abyss]

I make jokes, but my inability to organize the absolute cluster $%#@ that is my OT is a bigger pain point than Refinery exploitation. And my autistic mind sees a two birds with one stone efficiency situation and drools about it.

[median viper]

the entire point is, its the most worth it for all players

[fierce abyss]

Given the 140 mentions of "grand refinery", I think a lot of people want it, and again, I think it solves the issue AND makes it very simple for Odie to quickly tweak the numbers of a single building in the future if necessary.

[median viper]

its crazy time efficient

[mortal jacinth]

Odie already effectively acknowledged the concept and implied that it could be a thing down the line: #1369697245980786729 message

No sense rehashing it over and over and over again.

[violet robin]

Don't get me wrong I agree.

But a grand bakery would be clutch

[fierce abyss]

Didn't see that. But also, there is a reason to repeat it. The more it's mentioned, the higher the demand for it goes, the higher priority such a thing becomes.

[fierce abyss]

Grand Bakery skin for the Grand Refinery. 👍

[mortal jacinth]

That's not exactly how productive conversations work.

[median viper]

Grand bakery skin for grand market?

yes..

grand market already looks good tho

can we bakery the smith?

or just add a bakery decoration building

[violet robin]

That being said, thank you for all the talk here ! It hasn't always been easy, but I hope the results will be a + for the game. Sorry for those who for some reasons I can understand are a bit sad about what may happen, it should not stop us from loving this wonderful game ! 💜✌🏻

[fierce abyss]

It often is, though, when you're talking about a "town hall", almost political style of conversation like this. It's how democracy usually works, by drumming up support for what you believe is a better solution to a problem. That support often comes from repetition of an idea, and the ability to push back against scrutiny against it.

Because, I(almost) guarantee you that if every single person who entered this conversation just said "I want a Grand Refinery", Odie would say "okay, they really want a Grand Refinery" and it would become a much higher priority.

[river inlet]

@valid shore did you see the grand refinery idea yet? I think it would solve all our problems @tepid meadow told me about it

can we get a new poll that has grand refinery as option 1, and continue to debate in the thread as option 2

[valid shore]

https://tenor.com/view/nutso-gif-25041218

[fierce abyss]

Agreed!

[dapper dagger]

Not that I love refineries as I think they are way too exploitable the way they are now but placing too low a cap or removing them altogether is one more step in hampering any sort of casual progression that doesn't involve pounding content. For instance, just placing a hard cap of 10 on them actively hurts people who want to use them to grind up excess common mats. If I only get 10 per 12 hour period, it discourages me from grinding up mithril and encourages me to grandmarket grind for greens and let the mithril pile up. if a simple cap is the answer we get, I'd rather see it moved to you can only refine so many points worth of mats per 12 hour period. And yeah just merge it to one OT only building at that point.

[fierce abyss]

Another vote for Grand Refinery!

The cap isn't on the number of Refineries you can build, but on the number you can run at one time.

[dapper dagger]

I understand that, has very little to do with the point I was trying to make.

[desert zephyr]

Imo you absolutely should need to "pound content" in order to progress. You can still do that in a casual way since the base game becomes very easy at a certain point

[dawn ore]

Please yes, just 1 building to recycle materials, I beg

I grow tired of putting materials and retrieving those recycled, 8 times each cycle, twice a day

I just gave up, because I already have to remind myself to collect my mnemonic and settlements rewards

And god I forgot them despite the amount of settlements I captured

Even if I play daily, I don't remind myself to push buttons to collect rewards, because it's not the fun part of the gameplay

Ideally, I dream of an update the game auto-collect when you connect for the first time in your game, like how the old territories reward worked

and where the refinerie(s) auto-recycle your most abundant materials

The real question is not "How much refineries can I build and use ?"
"What is the most balanced amount of materials you can recycle per day ?"

Having an infinite amount of refineries means an infinite amount per day

That means you could buy and recycle as much materials you can as long you keep gold, which you get as much as you breathe air.

Being a material generator doesn't seem to be the intended purpose of refineries

Through your journey in Orna you'll accumulate many, Many, MANY ressources :

That why the refinery was created, to purposely transform your less used materials to more used ones.

One by area, to force the player to explore and build those refineries and playing to other content during the travel.

However, some discovered you could group refineries by using the Origin Town relocation.

With ALs burning tons of mats, you needed a way to get the rarest materials without destroying KOrns or doing specific dungeons tiers by doing it with some specific tiered alts.

Refineries were the best solution at that time.

Then the guilds were introduced, and OT relocation cooldown was reduced from 6 to 3 days

I feel that's where it started to become out of control

You could get way more materials from your contents and you could stack up way faster refineries.

And then Grand Market just gave the infinite material fuel for Refineries.

In my eyes, the best way to balance this is to find/calculate the average material you get from content per day

And/Or force refineries to only recycle the most abundant materials and not let the players choose high quality ones because it will give more mats.

[fair parcel]

If I understand it correctly, the refinery is a net loss.

[fair parcel]

so u dont need to force it, eventually mat will run out if u only use refinery

[wispy heath]

It is a net loss. But you put in useless materials and you get useful materials. It's not that complicated

You eventually run out if you get no materials from anywhere else

[dawn ore]

cough Grand Market cough

[wispy heath]

Which isn't true in a world with grand market - but even that aside, stuff like Roosts and Battlegrounds, or even just normal boss dungeons are rich sources of common sup+ materials

Such as dragonite, draconite, baldur, lyonite and ortanite.

[dawn ore]

At least they have a cooldown you can't bypass

[dawn ore]

Actually this reminded my of the point system behind rarity.
Maybe instead of 120 materials, you should just fill 120 points equivalent of materials

It would refocus Refineries' purpose from Mat generator to Mat recycler

since no matter the Material you choose, you'll get the same amount per cycle

[fair parcel]

doesn't refinery already do that but with less amount?

[dawn ore]

I don't think so, plus it's not what the messaged you transferred says

[fair parcel]

Sorry, English is not my native language, so you mean putting 60 green mat and receive 60 different mat?

[dawn ore]

The formula is : amountStart * matPoints / 2 = amountEnd

so it's 60 * 2 / 2 = 60

yes

A Refinery can hold up to 120 materials

be it quality common (uncolored), uncommon (green), rare (bleu), legendary (purple)

What I suggest was to change 120 materials to 120 value (or points)

You could recycle :

• 120 common materials
• 60 uncommon materials
• 40 rare materials
• 30 legendary materials

in the end, you'll always get 60 points equivalent of materials

[dawn ore]

With this change it will make sense to focus the materials with high amount regardless of their quality, instead of focusing the higher quality and amount.
Better serving the purpose of Refineries as recyclers

[fair parcel]

yeah but ortanite is plenty being able to recycle 30 of it per refinery will be painful i guess

[dawn ore]

Yes with this change it will slow down the recycling of colored materials.
With 10 refineries, you can recycle 120 * 10 * 2 = 2400 materials points per day
So it will be equivalent in materials to :

• 2400 common
• 1200 uncommon
• 800 rare
• 600 legendary

[fair parcel]

I think I prefer the old system bc I have more ortanite than stone

[dawn ore]

If I take my materials for exemple, to completely recycle :

• Wood, it will take 30.82 days
• Baldur, it will take 58.11 days
• Draconite, it will take 67.35 days
• Ortanite, it will take 53.92 days

however with the amount of materials I gather through contents, I think you'll need to increase the number of refineries or efficiency

And I'm not an hardcore player, so yeah

[dawn ore]

How much do you have by curiosity ?

[fair parcel]

86255 ortanite while I only have 50773 stone

I mostly do 5 towers a day and some counchable amity

[dawn ore]

with 10 refineries in the current version, it'll take 35.94 days to recycle

with my version, it rises up to 143.76 days

you have a rough idea of how much ortanite you gain per day ?

[fair parcel]

oh god, pls odie, dont listen to this mad man

[fair parcel]

well no, all I can tell is it's mostly from towers

[dawn ore]

well if he listened to me then he should regroup every refineries in one and instead of equivalent of 10, maybe making the grand refinery equivalent to 20 normal ones.
Wait the return from beta testers and then adjust

Easy no ?

[fair parcel]

ok i change my mind, pls Odie, listen to this brilliant mind
But from what I can see, we wont get anything worth more than 10 of normal refineries

Just want to know, is there a guild system in everyone's mind that outshines the shops-refinery loop, excluding the Grand Market?

[slate ledge]

are the refinery changes fixed or is there a chance it could be increased or balanced by some other way?

[dawn ore]

Maybe Anguish Guild if you have access to enough dungeons to cycle every 2 hours ?

You litteraly farm ortanite and proofs that have a high value of exchange

But first, it feels a little more deserving

Second Anguish will get reworked, and we don't know yet how difficult it will be to farm proofs nor their value of exchange, even if Odie said it will have an even higher value

[dawn ore]

if this thread is not closed, then it is not yet fixed, you can still debate on the changes

[fair parcel]

how many do u think are needed?

[dawn ore]

with Ang50, Horde Boss so 2 hours cd with 2x concord, and perfect build and high ALs to get each dungeon done in 5 min, I would say 24 dungeons

it is an estimation

For my part with BeoA Cactus and AL51, I need 1 hour for 10 dungeons

But I could do better if I had better equipments on my BeoH

[fair parcel]

Brye said he couldnt manage 40 ref reliably before gm, things could be different if Odie hadn't released grand market at the same time as guilds

[dawn ore]

That's an interesting reference

Knowing its insane ALs, we can consider him an hardcore player, and what he needs to stay competitive

[dawn ore]

with 40 refineries you get 9600 materials recycled

it would recycle entire piles of materials in weeks

for me, since I don't play as competitive as him x)

[fair parcel]

Without gm, guilds could have made shop-ref phase out just enough to drop grand ref and some limit to shops, since there was nothing to do more than doing dungeons before guilds, iirc

[dawn ore]

Yeah, maybe Grand Market is the biggest problem with refineries

When some people have free slots in their refineries, they prefer to get materials from GM, instead of doing Dungeons, Towers, etc...

[dapper dagger]

Do you see any place in Orna for an idle baseline progression? I guess in many ways I mourn old Orna where you couldnt just sit in a chair and blow through content. Add to that that the ability to sit and play more time equals an exponential gain in power and not a linear increase in power. If you can only play 1 hour per day you likely only have time to increase 1 or 2 guild currencies. Whereas if you have time to sit and play 8 hours you can progress multiple guilds. Right now the refinery sytem is the only real idle game we have.

Like I said my biggest issue with this current cap is it actively discourages what was the original point of the building. Turning junk mats into other mats. Now you can say that Odie never intended for there to be more than one building. That may be true or not but it was also designed in a time where daily mat income was significamtly lower then.

Let me give an example, I run 21 refineries. I just grind up whatever materials i have the most of which is mostly mithril, wood and steel. It doesnt take much active play at all for me to grow my stockpile. If they put this cap in the way it is it will force me to do grand market for green mats just to produce a similar amount to what i do now. Its not a great solution to the problem imo.

[pallid crest]

Any chance we could get some input from the studio on the poll result and the solutions that will be implemented going forward? This thread is clearly taking a lot of attention from the beta and everything that had to be said has already been repeated time and time again

[river inlet]

🔒

[wise kelp]

We can lock the thread if the discourse is becomming too circular.
The poll gave us good info, as you all did in the chatter.

Thanks for engaging, we'll unlock this again later if there's any additional changes <3

[hasty chasm]

The thread now has ~2k messages, which is way more than I had ever personally anticipated but it seems to have run its course. everything has been said.

If you dont believe me you may go back to the beginning here: https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1369697245980786729

If you wanna check out the refinery poll you'll see that one here: #1370416842065313852 message