3.17 Balance patch

[timid nest]

Use this thread to adress balance patch issues

[slim gorge]

3.17 Balance patch

Just changed the title - trying to keep all the 3.17 related stuff in a format that is easily trackable for now and future!
Thanks for starting another thread <3

[bronze isle]

Suggest: remove auto CA from Gursa and give him something great in PvE , like more 2 hands bonus

[rough nebula]

that is essentially what we had in the last balance patch beta, and the community was not happy with it

[loud sedge]

Suggest: add SF1 back to gherc.

[ebon mulch]

Sucks that prom hands are getting nerfed.

[topaz drum]

Ok, I see odies message about anguish being the main topic of general and go here for balance. Why aren't the pvp scaling changes addressed?

[rough nebula]

there shouldn't be any pvp changes - what would like to see addressed?

[topaz drum]

Pvp used to be 2x hp, its not the case anymore

[rough nebula]

smells like a bug. is it the same in battle?

[topaz drum]

Yes. Want me to put it in beta bugs, or no since you're seeing this lol

[rough nebula]

already got it fixed, dont worry about it

will patch later

[topaz drum]

Thanks

[floral drift]

Was the community really not happy with it? I saw a ton of people celebrating that it should have been done a long time ago. Only really saw GUrsa players complaining. We’ve all seen how CA can be frustrating, a free, random one is just that much more (and this is coming from someone who recently HoC’d to gilga and has been using GUrsa on PvP defense)

[loud sedge]

yeah im actually surprised to see that the community was not happy with ca removal. my impression was the opposite

that community was happy to see it removed

[rough nebula]

imo, the community has happy about the whole package - including reduced rates of CA in PVP (which did happen)

Auto-CA on Ursa was voted no-go

[steep scaffold]

I mean if auto ca is really that annoying just make a debuff/beoa build

[loud sedge]

huh

can it have counterattack rules applied to it

if under status. CA doesnt proc

[safe heart]

From what I remember, the dissatisfaction wasn't with autoCA removal but the replacement buff GUrsa got instead no?

[rough nebula]

that should currently be the case

[loud sedge]

even in live?

[rough nebula]

i think so, yeah

[steep scaffold]

Gursa doesn't really have much going for it without auto ca

[loud sedge]

ill test, thanks

[rough nebula]

#game-announcements message

[steep scaffold]

So anything that doesn't really seem equivalent to it's effectiveness would probably get negative feedback

[rough nebula]

last section in there ^

[loud sedge]

any particular reason gherc didnt make it with steadfast 1?

[safe heart]

Debuff build not very effective since GUrsa has sf2

[steep scaffold]

They hate gercules clearly 🥸

[steep scaffold]

True but either way it's a strategy

[loud sedge]

i would just run assassin

[visual granite]

Will need to test main game with people at different dex to fully evaluate the homing shield /ranger implications with warriors being able to hit. Looks good on paper, could be OP, will do more research then.

One thing im still very concerned about is tanky ward builds out damaging the glass ones with SS3 scaling still way out of wack. Out of scope for this beta, maybe, but still a real problem.

[safe heart]

I'll have to do some testing, is ca disabled for any debuffs or only turn skipping ones?

[steep scaffold]

Hopefully only the turn skipping ones

If I can't auto counter caus I'm drenched I'm throwing something

[floral drift]

Doesn’t this mean people were happy to see Ursa (the passive that gives autoCA) be replaced? I’m not finding another pool that touches on AutoCA

[steep scaffold]

Oh wait drenched is already miss turn

Uhh

[safe heart]

Drenched does skip turns

[steep scaffold]

Cursed I mean

I keep forgetting drenched isn't just a cosmetic debuff

[topaz drum]

Gilgas can spam ca with katar still. As can realms and beos. Please remove the auto ca 🫠

[safe heart]

I'm still hoping GUrsa gets a replacement and autoCA is deleted

Or at the least, disable it for the first turn on defense

[tawdry rampart]

Why Gursa does not have Titan Grip that allows to equip two two handed weapons?

[rough nebula]

I’ll only be entertaining balance changes that we’ll want to see aligned with Anguish 2.0

PvP motivated stuff can wait

[steep scaffold]

Oh hey I suggested that a long time ago

Everybody hated it for some reason

[topaz drum]

That would be ridiculously OP and massive ward on a class that isn't meant to have massive ward

[steep scaffold]

Yeah at a reduced effectiveness

Of course they aren't gonna give you full stats for double two handers

[rough nebula]

It would need to be pretty reduced lol

[loud sedge]

hmm. autoCA was removed .some people argued it was good for pve because of damage reduction. at the same time pommel of ursa (edit i forgot the name of the passive additional two hand damage) ,we could make the argument of it being aligned with 2.0

[fallow patrol]

Because that would be broken even with each being 66% effective

[steep scaffold]

Any more "broken" than auto ca already is?

[loud sedge]

anyways ill let other argue on merits of autoCA 😄 my main focus this time around is getting steadfast 1 back on gherc

[oak orbit]

I doubt that, just let it happen my man im not joking DO IT

[tawdry rampart]

if you remore autoCA and something else like all defensive passives why not?

i.e.: no auto CA, no second chance, no steadfast

[loud sedge]

at least some gilga players i was talking to were looking forward to playing herc without nerfing its ward passive by needing to absolutely run immunty accessories

it also felt balanced based on having less accuracy and no mana siphon

so i am disappointed to see it not carry over into this patch

also means ill likely continue to only use base gilga in anguish 2.0 instead of working with herc

[steep scaffold]

Yeah towers are annoying as hell (especially floors like Pegasus where they always span sacrestrike) with all the debuffs

[warped terrace]

It's only a 5% miss-turn chance and a 5% fade chance, so in most fights it doesn't do much. It's annoying when you lose 4 turns in a row to it, lmao.

[steep scaffold]

Give us some way to not get destroyed by any random sack of potatoes able to inflict a debuff

[loud sedge]

its a bit difficult to get on the soap box for any and all changes so ill stand of sf1 for gherc as my main priority

[rough nebula]

From napkin math, they would need to both be reduced by at least 50% to not make it one of the biggest ward inflators i can think of

But then, you’ve got the adornment number issue

Imo, it just isn’t worth the balance headache

[warped terrace]

Plus side to Drenched, almost nothing resists it

[oak orbit]

Agreed, it feels like herc got severely nerfed, which is not cool since i see very few ppl using it

[steep scaffold]

Yeah I agree the amount of balance you'd have to do to make it acceptable isn't reasonable

[steep scaffold]

Just wait till they start nerfing second chance for some reason

Caus LOTS of people hate second chance

[loud sedge]

herc in general outside of some niches doesnt see play (i dont have player data) in the circles i am familar with

[oak orbit]

Id give up second chance in herc for stead 2 😬

[topaz drum]

It would still be an absolute tank of a class especially at high AL. It would create the same problem that already exists with SS. Tank everything while smacking insanely hard and having like 800k ward lol

[loud sedge]

sf1 opens it back up to all content as a standard class to play

[rough nebula]

I’ll double check later, but I believe herc is already the #1 class for survivability across all content. It’s hard to justify a defensive buff when that is the case

[steep scaffold]

Beoh already does the stupidly tanky thing at high als

They are able to minmax to their hearts content with no drawbacks

Nerf beoh

[loud sedge]

what convinced you add it in the first place? was it the ward scaling nerf?

[oak orbit]

Better than base deity? 😳

[steep scaffold]

Meanwhile we get restricted to warrior gear only and start at half ward

[rough nebula]

Yeah, there was a trade off there

[rough nebula]

Yes

[loud sedge]

that trade off was for all classes though

and herc got it regardless

[junior compass]

Gotta say, dual wielding 2h weapons sounds like an amazing power fantasy

[oak orbit]

Damn that doesnt feel like it

[rough nebula]

Fair point - but it’s not currently in this build, so likely little to debate there

[topaz drum]

Meanwhile I need 173 AL to do this to get through people with much less AL than me lol

See how squishy?

[errant stag]

this update does nerf beoh kek gonna miss for days (disclaimer: haven't actually played the beta yet lmao)

[loud sedge]

if possible i would like to understand this data point better. I have seen the class balance charts in the past. I can only go off gameplay experience at my AL and people i play with but it doesnt pass the sniff test for me

[steep scaffold]

I can barely compete with people without als as gilga

It's just not an equal playing field in pvp

[topaz drum]

My 10 al G.ursa defends better than my heretic

[steep scaffold]

We can't act like it is

[steep scaffold]

Well yeah it's literally from the classline about survivability

[tawdry rampart]

kinda random question, but how fun was doing this patch compared to other updates?

[topaz drum]

Then it can compete lol

[loud sedge]

different way to frame the question. in anguish 2.0.

[cold grove]

Auto CA should completely go in pvp, tbh

[loud sedge]

what does gherc offer me vs base gilga

it cant take full advantage of its offhand ward passive by needing to run immunity accessories

and with fixed miss chance removal i am inclined to run base gilga

once i get into the beta ill try both out to get a better feel

[steep scaffold]

Just caus it can defend better than heretic doesn't make it easily viable

[steep scaffold]

That's comparing something specialized in a strategy against something that isn't

[loud sedge]

should we have a separate thread for pvp chat

or just avoid it entirely

as it seems unaligned with Odie's goal for this thread

[steep scaffold]

Yeah I'll stop there

[loud sedge]

you can argue that autoCa has a place in pve but everything in this chat so far is about pvp

[topaz drum]

Maybe a different thread? Idk I only posted here because general was said to be for ang 2.0 primarily and everything else goes here

[fiery maple]

I wouldn't make a beta thread about it, since it's outside the scope of this beta.
But some (good effort, respectful) pvp discussion in a #1084643200725164062 discussion would not be bad.

[rough nebula]

anguish or the balance stuff?

[topaz drum]

And I just wanted to point out the HP not being 2x. Also def/res is out of whack. 17k/18k def/res with pumpkinless 😬 😂

[rough nebula]

some snippets:

overall:

[junior compass]

Wtf nerf creator

[floral drift]

Creator t12 class confirmed

[tawdry rampart]

I suppose balance is not fun and anguish was fun? but more like compared to past content, how fun was it?

[rough nebula]

raiding:

[oak orbit]

Well its clear which class should get the most severe nerfs 👀

[rough nebula]

nefr creator

[topaz drum]

No heretics 😅

[tawdry rampart]

creator outclassed

[topaz drum]

Is konq on the bottom lol

[warped terrace]

No gods, no creators

[livid lynx]

I’m not a fan of channelalus taking additional turn. Why? Deific channels takes 3 turns

The chest piece takes 2 turns

Why would I use channelalus now over the other options?

[warped terrace]

wait

[loud sedge]

okay so those are some bars

[warped terrace]

I take that back

[floral drift]

Because you get a free turn afterwards

[livid lynx]

For deity ursa

[strong badger]

QC Gods of Aaru reigns supreme

[livid lynx]

But Ara uses up their turn for it

[floral drift]

Which was abusing it to clear very high Ang towers at low AL

Which was problematic

[rough nebula]

anguish was loads of fun. hooking something into our existing progression system to meet the desire for infinite ascension was really engaging

[livid lynx]

New Anguish isn’t out yet to determine if still impactful

[steep scaffold]

Just make a quick cast build 🤓☝️

[oak orbit]

This might have to do with the ppl that arent on discord so we dont know much about the experience overall. Kinda lika how odie said heretics are widely used but ppl complain about its current state in here 🤔

[loud sedge]

i dont think i can win an arguement here for this. that bar just surprises me. I wonder, at what AL ranges is that completed with - what completion times look like for content where its surviving. class competency is a big component of it

my little bubble on discord == no one plays gherc

[livid lynx]

Lol so just use Quick cast to solve all issues? Really diverse gameplay

[loud sedge]

I only see endgame gilga use base and gursa

[steep scaffold]

Wait what exactly is this saying

[cold grove]

GSA for the win 🗣️

||Glad it’s not a chart about speed||

[steep scaffold]

Hercules is most used?

[loud sedge]

all this data says to Odie is that players die the least on gherc across the playerbase

[oak orbit]

I dont see use for herc, but if thats the scenario i cant do much about it heheheh

[steep scaffold]

Oh

Yeah that's to be expected tbh

I don't think I've died unintentionally in pve in at least 4 months

[loud sedge]

which i worry whether or not that is actually a good benchmark....

deaths in orna can be controlled to a high degree

[cold grove]

Yeah, not dying doesn’t mean it’s efficient, like GSA being up there, which is incredibly slow, even if it doesn’t die

[rough nebula]

you're not wrong, in that it's not a wildly used class.

if we look at occurance over effectiveness (in dungeons, this is just dungeon data), we do see herc second last

[errant stag]

holy summoners

[rough nebula]

the margins between those bars is effectiveness - how much the gap between usage and survivability is

bigger difference in bars: bad

[steep scaffold]

You're surprised the easiest class to play is the most played class?

[loud sedge]

right so this small group of people never dies on herc. if you add SF1 i guess you would expect it to grow and continue to perform better relative to other classes in terms of survivability

[errant stag]

when you put it that way I guess I really shouldn't be surprised kekw

[rough nebula]

any balance change needs to be justified with data

[loud sedge]

is there any way of considering a trade off?

[steep scaffold]

I'm kinda surprised gsh gets more activity than rs courvus though

[loud sedge]

and involving gilga community on opinions?

[steep scaffold]

I feel like I've seen more rsc than gsh

[loud sedge]

i think there is a conversation to be had with gaining SF1 while losing something else

[timid nest]

gladly take my second chance for sf1

[steep scaffold]

Yeah especially on gercules

[loud sedge]

i would trade second chance + guardian

[steep scaffold]

If we have sf1 then second chance wouldn't be as necessary due to the whole ward thing

[loud sedge]

sort of

[rough nebula]

let's revisit when we've all played the beta, and it's shown that SF1 is needed for Anguish 2.0/Herc

[visual granite]

Does SS3 damage scaling constitute a balance worth visiting related to anguish? I already envision gilga CS being king since you can build super tanky, get CD damage, accuracy all over, etc etc

[loud sedge]

anguish scenarios in 1.0 even at my AL involved second chance

[warped terrace]

More people who play base GS than play base RS, so it's not surprising to me. People are more likely to buy and play celestial classes for base classes they already play. Even if both those were the exact same percent of players, GSH would still be ahead in raw numbers.

[loud sedge]

thank you im good with this. just wanted to start the convo today

[steep scaffold]

Yeah true

[loud sedge]

once im in the beta i will try out herc vs base

[steep scaffold]

Just gotta wait for the beta to stop blackscreening 😆

[floral drift]

Just wanted to say that I really enjoy seeing data like this and wish there was someway we could get access to more of it

[loud sedge]

same

[cold grove]

Sorry for the ping, but is that orna, HoA or both, maybe?

[rough nebula]

orna

[river briar]

This is so cool! Thanks for sharing!

[keen charm]

That heratic rework. Successful?

[jade robin]

I'm doing roughly the same dmg with Ultima in beta as i do in live (on cactus) is that correct?

[junior compass]

Depends on what multipliers you are using

For this build, there is a large difference.

[rough nebula]

damage should be the same if less than 2 elemental boosters are used

[fallow patrol]

I've made a google sheet to calc new ultima dmg if anyone was interested
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIoWrZiHcXcLXD9J8hS1w3AImxIiK5HTEuFhO6TJ4WQ/edit?usp=sharing

(Still working on adding the old calc to do a comparison)

[jade robin]

EB2, 1.4x crit, 1.3x Arcane, 9 achlys, faction bonus

EB2 is 1,5x dark and 1,5x holy

So there are some boosters

Left is beta

[fallow patrol]

whats the build look like

[fallow patrol]

whats the amity?

[jade robin]

1.4x crit, 1.3x dragon

[junior compass]

Those all look like different boosters

The only overlap is achlys with your class

[jade robin]

So only overlapping boosters are additive?

[junior compass]

Yes

So very minor decrease in this case, all the 2% achlys souls

[jade robin]

I see

[junior compass]

4% difference, ish

[fallow patrol]

Yeah your build only loses like 70% (though this was was done very rushed and may be slightly wrong)

[junior compass]

The achlys souls give 2% to each element separately, no?

So it wouldn't be ^18

[jade robin]

1.02x holy and 1.02x dark per soul

[fallow patrol]

top is how it's currently calced, bottom is new beta

[jade robin]

So 1.02^18 is fine

[junior compass]

Yeah my mistake. 0.18?

[jade robin]

Anyway thx for clarifying i thought about every elemental multiplier being additive instead of only overlaps

[fallow patrol]

yee, if we're just talking about A.souls, 9 of them currently would give an ultima boost of 1.02^18 = 1.42x, in beta it should give (1 + (0.02 * 9))(1 + (0.02 * 9)) = 1.39x

[junior compass]

Right

How does that translate to 70%

[jade robin]

From 584% to 513%

[fallow patrol]

Because now the holy/dark from the A.souls will no longer multiply with the holy/dark bonus from grand summoner, it will add

[bitter crypt]

This is why I hate percentages, especially when trying to bring up percentage increases/decreases in value.

The value went from 5.848 to 5.136, which is a change of -0.712, which is an approximate 12% decrease in value.

[cold grove]

[junior compass]

Does faction boost apply to ultima?

[warm oasis]

wow, what a very gentle nudge to ultima balance

[junior compass]

How is the heretic crit multiplier calculated in live vs in beta

1.25x or 1.5x? Compared to +0.5x

[fallow patrol]

If you have nothing else that gives bonus crit damage it'll be the exact same, 1.5x in both
But if you have a Celestial weapon with 5 prom hands for example:
Live: (1.5)(1.1^5) = 2.42x
Beta: (1 + (0.5 + (0.1 * 5))) = 2.0x

[kindred cave]

Again? :o How hard?

[kindred cave]

nvm

[kindred cave]

so its back to selene for deity, or did selene get nerfed too? :o

[junior compass]

1.5x in live would equal to 3x crit damage, no?

The default crit multiplier is already 2x

[kindred cave]

Is there like a summary post of all the balance changes somewhere in beta 3.17?

[timid nest]

#game-announcements message

also ingame event hub > game updates

[kindred cave]

The 2 turn chanalalus will make ursa more fair and cripple ara, oof. Cant wait to test it later in public beta.^^

[severe vector]

Why cripple ara

[fallow patrol]

I never really incorporated extra damage from the base crit as it was something all classes had and everything was always multiplied, but thinking about it more, I'm curious if it's considered "crit damage" and is additive with crit amities or in its own category making it multiply 🤔🤔

[junior compass]

I think the class passive is its own category

[viral tangle]

Where can I see who complained about gursa auto CA getting nerfed? There is no place for that. You do nothing and win for no reason.

[loud sedge]

my theory is that the feedback from gilgas about what replaced CA was poor and was mistaken as the community not wanting CA to be removed.

i think 1) majority community does want to see CA removed 2) gilga players wanted something more interesting than flat two hand damage increase (which is nerfed by anguish 2.0 as we can now see) and some additional CD damage.

[severe vector]

Titan's Grip when 🗣️

[loud sedge]

yeah thats the passive i also dont want 😄

but if i had to then whatever

[junior compass]

I think the math is:
Live: (1.25)(1.1^5) = 2.013x
Beta: (1.25)(1+ (0.1 * 5))) = 1.875x

[river briar]

Yeah. I think most gilga mains were chill with losing CA for something more based in the class theme

[loud sedge]

we could put a poll up right now and my bet would be that CA removal is popular

[river briar]

Personally I would like to see the passive lost as it just is not interesting to build into

[tawdry rampart]

if anyone does a pull please include Titan Grip

[fallow patrol]

Yeah that makes sense (will make sure I got the Google sheet calculating that correctly when I work on adding the calc stuff later 👍)

[junior compass]

The example doesn't fully match but it's close

Kind of a shame that keeping the class passive as a multiplier actually decreases the damage compared to a flat +0.5

[ornate prawn]

So according to your sheet I can get New Bonus with crit up to 888.5% if I get two Beyone Godly Amity with No maluses and 40% Crit/Dragon/Arc on one and Fire/lightning/earth 20% on the other

and go Heretic

If I go with a more reasonable but still godly set of amity with say 40 Crit and 20% of elemental and a 30 dragon/30 arcane it drops down to half that

[viral tangle]

Can we talk about the risk reward balance of Gilgas ward and SS? SS needs to do way less damage IMO. PVP vs PVE ultima changes.

GIlgas will still be able to use SS and now they wont miss. Why is the tankiest class able to be safe and hit for more than any glass cannon class? Does this make sense to anyone else?

[visual granite]

#1369695388432334878 message

[floral drift]

SS is technically Ang2.0 relevant since it’s currently poised to be extremely dominant in its meta

[visual granite]

^ i dont disagree

[weary oriole]

While that is likely, I'd rather that gets tested rather than assumed

[warm oasis]

and since, once we reach anguish tier, we all have 150k+ ward

isnt there a max scaling for pet health for blood pact? like your fat dragons can only be so fat and then it doesnt matter for dmg?

[weary oriole]

Pvp exclusive

[warm oasis]

guess ill be building ward for anguish, too

[floral drift]

Right now it seems to be the only way to clear towers with even low Ang levels on. The 2h debuff is huge and there’s no reason to use riskier builds like crit/dmg etc when SS outdamages it and is safer

[warm oasis]

well you need ward to be safe, but by the time you have enough, SS is stronger than any melee skill

[weary oriole]

Both the damage output and your safety lower when you use SS though - and considering you are unlikely to oneshot opponents, those might both be issues

This is coming from someone who doesn't SS though.

[warm oasis]

do they though? ward regen is % and ss doesnt cost that much

[floral drift]

Little bit of perspective from someone that played thief from the start until 1 week ago, when I HoC’d to gilga:

• Ang50 boss horde: went from taking 2min+ to consistently under 2min (no need to buff, just click chained shield)
• raiding: much faster with GilgaH than anything realm can do, while being so so much safer (no need to redline, worry about debuffs, etc)
• PvP is literally hitting people for 400k turn 1 with SS while having more EHP turn 1 than what I had on dorado + autoCA + second chance

SS and the adjacent skills are just that dominant. (And I have 15 less ALs than what I had on realm if that matters)

[warm oasis]

maybe ward shouldnt regen on turns you use it to attack or heal?

[topaz drum]

I raided faster on base gilga even than I could on heretic at the same AL

[weary oriole]

I'm very much not trying to say you're wrong or convince you otherwise. I'm just asking you test it, get evidence, record/log it, and then suggest it.
ie #1369743447082139738 message

After all, there are things you can do other than nerf CS

like new Anguish Maluses.

[floral drift]

As soon as the beta gets its iOS release I’ll be all over it

[weary oriole]

Ah right, the classic

[loud sedge]

see you when 2.0 goes live

[floral drift]

Funnily enough, the only post in that thread is pointing out this exact same problem after testing it 😅

[weary oriole]

Well that's exactly why I linked it

Because they tested it

[visual granite]

While I fully support testing these types of things and getting actual data, It really doesn't need more data than we've gathered over the last 2 years of ss3 / CS being busted

[normal pagoda]

In PvE (especially anguish) it's well positioned to be more broken than before currently. Anguish gear with ward recovery of 3% per piece makes it that much better

I've got more feedback to write later for anguish towers where I'll get into it more

[warped terrace]

Same. Though you and I are likely going to have very different experiences.

[river briar]

I agree so deeply on this point.

Nothing about 2.0 changes the gear, stats, AL combo that has dominated the SS issue

(Also waiting for IOS beta for testing myself. But I don’t think I will be suprised with what I will find)

I was actually going to note a damage outlier here with augments. I see a note about stacking crit augments, but nothing about stacking stat augments. For instance selean hands are not noted as an issue, but as a gilga main it was my main source for high damage plays

[fiery maple]

fwiw, those already stack additively (in live).

[river briar]

Interesting. They just unga boonga the stats that hard?

[ornate prawn]

Super curious what your Ascension level and gear will be hitting this hard so quickly. I agree that Anguish punishes 2H and Ultima/Towerfall players multiplicatively with the balance patch and the maluses that shrink their damage. But maybe it's just time to join the Gilga train.

[floral drift]

I was on 145 or 146 on realm, HoCd to 131 on gilga. Gear is pretty much optimal since there’s a lot of overlap between Dorado and Gilga

[ornate prawn]

Thanks. From what I am seeing, those close to 150 AL are going to have a cakewalk in Anguish 2.0 if they have a CS/SS build. I do wonder if the nerf to non-Gilga will make it less desirable for other classes to continue with CS/SS builds, though. Sirith was doing BeoH without problems at over 50 anguish for some content.

[floral drift]

I’ll let you know once I’m able to access the beta 😅

[sharp robin]

Did only base gilga get increased dex?

[warm oasis]

depending on the nerf to token drop chance w/o using shackles, everyone might be leveling up pretty evenly

[ornate prawn]

Not sure what you mean by that? I think if you don't use shackles, it's like 10 levels max before the rewards drop to 0, but High level Ascension will be able to ignore needing stats as they level up much quicker than someone lower

[steep scaffold]

Yet another high al player throwing blanket statements 😔

Just caus you hit 400k first turn doesn't mean that's static across every gilga player ever

I'm al 15 and I barely hit over 50k in turn 1 pvp and I've spent a good year building specifically for ss3

I just don't see ss3 being broken on turn 1 outside of beoh

[river briar]

I think your experience is the exact reason it is a bad skill, and bad for game health

[fallow patrol]

I mean I can hit for 100k as base Gilga 0 ALs with SS3 (200k+ if I have full ward) so I don't understand how you're only hitting 50k?
But what makes it so strong is ALs and how it scales with them

[steep scaffold]

With full ward it's 200k

[fallow patrol]

0ALs

[steep scaffold]

In pvp I happen to run into ALOT of people with high def builds

I'm also not using selene hands

Hybrid is for wimps 🗿

[river briar]

Welp

Can’t help you there then bro, T1 damage is going to need selene hands

[strong badger]

Saying you can't hit hard, then saying that the way to do damage is for wimps? Makes sense

[steep scaffold]

Using magic stat to do damage with a physical skill just doesn't make sense

Hence I don't use it

If you wanna do hybrid stuff just use beo anyways

They do it better

[strong badger]

Way to make number big no make sense, so me keep number small, big happy, but class bad

[river briar]

Let’s refocus on balance all

If you dont want to play the meta that is fine. But that has nothing to do with balance

[steep scaffold]

Just saying meta isn't something that is representative of the whole

You can't take the extremes (400k turn one ss3) and apply it to the average

[strong badger]

With that logic, endgame pvp will never be fixed and will always feel terrible

[steep scaffold]

Turn off als or something idk

[strong badger]

doesn't matter

[steep scaffold]

You can do that now I believe

[steep scaffold]

I mean yeah it really does; if there's no als it's just a gear fight so just get better gear rather than worrying about "quadscaling" or whatever the excuse is to nerf gilga

High al pvp is just a race to see who's one shot build is better anyways

[strong badger]

Spending obscene amounts of resources for a small temperary relief does not a solution make

[steep scaffold]

Basically a cutscene

[steep scaffold]

What's this supposed to mean

[strong badger]

150 proofs, for 30 minutes you can use once ever 2 hours doesn't "fix" pvp balance... it's still unbalanced, and some classes were basically unviable in PVP

[steep scaffold]

Oh you're caught up on conq guild people

I figured you were talking about arena

[steep scaffold]

Most classes aren't viable in pvp because they need further setup tbh. Stuff like gsh, gsa, Dara I think, gursa

Classes are gonna have ups and downs in effectiveness

And anyways counterattack always exists if you're really having that much trouble with ss3

[rotund lagoon]

What a 180 😂

[glossy badger]

I am quite surprised there is no change to the dmg formula of SS (and their sub variants), we have years of complaint abt its performance on high AL and there is no change.

[river briar]

This ^

[junior compass]

That'll be in the balance patch

[ornate prawn]

This is the balance patch feedback

[junior compass]

Yes but not the balance patch beta

This beta is focused on ang2.0. These are a few of the upcoming balance patch changes

Some changes had been part of the previous beta and are no longer here for example

[ornate prawn]

This patch has a whole section on balance that's almost bigger in notes than the ang2.0 stuff 😄

[junior compass]

Bigger in notes because it's a lot of little changes to existing things, yeah

[ornate prawn]

In fact technically I think the balance patch has been over 3 patches

[junior compass]

Ang 2.0 is a whole new system

And the balance patch will be partly based on ang 2.0 feedback

[balmy folio]

So where is the balance patch for t9 conqueror, someone t9 alts grind 1 year for all godforged event build

[glossy badger]

My feedback on SS is still valid for anguish because it has the power to surpass ultima for anguish raiding

[junior compass]

Feedback is valid, of course

[balmy folio]

Whos t9 othersoul got 60k hp？

[junior compass]

I'm just saying ss isn't being changed in this beta or patch

[ornate prawn]

I don't even get the argument either, I haven't seen plans for after Anguish, although I am sure they will have adjustments. I haven't heard of a new balance patch since the last ongoing one, which was broken into several parts.

SS is defintely going to be the meta with the way malus is setup

[river briar]

But making clear the meta before the beta goes live is also the point of the beta

[junior compass]

Ss has long been identified as an issue

[ornate prawn]

2H and Ultima both have malus for the majority of the Anguish content

[river briar]

If we go to a world where all viable options are one single option. What is the resolution?

[ornate prawn]

We go back to Heretic SS builds of course

[fiery maple]

there are some balance changes in this anguish patch.
I believe this thread exists to discuss the (pve-only) balance changes, mostly as it pertains to anguish.

For SS specifically, this patch does take away SS auto-hit/fixed accuracy.

Odie has hinted at a later balance (only) patch.

[warped terrace]

Honestly, the "problem" I see here is what appears to be an advertisement for some sort of for-hire service (either GPS spoofing or "I'll log into your account for you and capture a bunch of towns for you").

Used to see the same thing in Pokemon GO.

[ornate prawn]

hard to tell intent

[balmy folio]

Well it is from Hoa, but i think they should add the balance in patch

[ornate prawn]

Well that takes spoofing out rofl

[warped terrace]

Okay, if it's in HoA then it's probably not lol

[ornate prawn]

Probably means they will take everythign then get naked and allow you to take it back

[warped terrace]

Ah, you may be right

[ornate prawn]

All my OS used to be named something like Get Naked after Winning before we had weekly rotations

[balmy folio]

This guy make t9 conqueror die, he got about 5 + t9 alts for kingdom war

[ornate prawn]

Yeah Conq guild is insane in HoA right now - not somoething they are going to address in the balance patch though

[balmy folio]

Yeah most of our player do the same

[ornate prawn]

They made us super pvp competative and people have gone to insane lengths to hold everything possible - hopefully after 2.0 release it can be addressed

[balmy folio]

I hope 2.0 dont getting more bad🤡 Specially the ang equipment upgrading process

[ornate prawn]

They haven't addressed anguish bonus ability rerolling yet but right now it's going to be rough - Godworking Tools will help some and depending on your AL will depend on how much re-upgrading you will end up having to do

[balmy folio]

Most of our 199 equipment gonna throw away, im 90 al about

Every level we need to masterforged again, If 50 ang going be a huge work & mats

[junior compass]

Lvl50 ang is like 130ALs

This isn't your mom's anguish guild

[ornate prawn]

25 ang in 2.0 is similar to 50 in 1.0

[junior compass]

Tbh I'm not sure how much anguish I'll be grinding, remains to be seen

[ornate prawn]

Sirith got the furtherst in Beta so far that I know of with 50 something that was like 3000% harder

[rotund lagoon]

Are there any screenshots of enemy hp lol

[glossy badger]

Take away fixed accuracy for SS and taking away dex scaling for anguished enemy

[fiery maple]

Sure. Maybe a bad example, since SS is getting a mixed bag of nerfs and buffs at the same time/in the same patch.

Better example would be the change to multiplicative bonus stacking?

[fallow patrol]

💀

Here's the bonuses/maluses

Honestly raiding may need its own special HP scaling as even with 143ALs + Ang50 gear I can't see this being possible with all these maluses

[upper whale]

So we're def not using Ultima on high ang raids?

[warped terrace]

I see it says “screw everyone, but screw elemental builds in particular”

[warped terrace]

We’re not even using Tidalseal lmfao

[upper whale]

SS mage 😂

[warped terrace]

Despite all my rage, I’m still just a Spiked Shield mage

[fallow patrol]

I don't even think SS is gonna save us in this scenario

[warped terrace]

We need to upgrade to SOS

[upper whale]

What else might even do decent there. Crit stuff is taking a huge hit there, elemental too

Maybe good anguish gear could make up for some of the maluses?

[warped terrace]

Nonele and pray
-# The much less fun version of Netflix and chill

[fallow patrol]

I see dragon damage as an option but without crit I can't see it being reasonable

[warped terrace]

Bad jokes aside, I feel like this may be where party play comes in?

[junior compass]

Dw guys there's a huge luck bonus attached

[fallow patrol]

Though as much as I love party play, I feel it should definitely still be made possible as a solo

Alright just gimme 30mins, I got this

[ionic saddle]

seeing some of this malus makes me not want to experiment w it on the beta, lol

[fallow patrol]

It's called fun Brye, we're having fun

[ionic saddle]

i dont have a nitro, so here you go:

[eternal jackal]

Is Spike shield 1 better for the pen in these situations

[junior compass]

Assassin's Jewel

[fallow patrol]

(I did not have SS1 equipped as I was expecting to be zeroed out with att++ and Gunnr LOL)

[fallow patrol]

Legit is going to become a meta adornment LOL

Wow I really am getting zeroed out with everything...

I'm ~30ALs under the recommend but I'm using Anguish 48/50 gear here

[rotund lagoon]

Muahaha where is your savior now towerfall heathens

[ionic saddle]

does gear mean much for follower's stats?

[fallow patrol]

Follower Stats scale with Ang level

But I think it's bugged/not working rn

(at least I hope LOL)

[ionic saddle]

oh that's pretty nice, though we know that those amount of stat doesnt mean much additively, especially against a +2611478146912784681% enemy stats

[ionic saddle]

luckily, fee can proc double t.res down
can you damage it if it has double t.res down?

[fallow patrol]

Brb, will check

Never mind... Fey Jorm said no...

[ionic saddle]

lmao

[rotund lagoon]

That -accuracy must hurt

[fallow patrol]

Uhhh I'm like 40 turns in and T.res down has not proc'd 🤔

[ionic saddle]

i proc it pretty often, especially w the assassin gear for stasis too

[fallow patrol]

Okay weird it's not procing using lacuna II it seems

Had to use a basic attack

[ionic saddle]

it procs when i use lacuna 2 , on live ofc

[warped terrace]

If they stealthily made raid bosses resistant to status, I’m gonna laugh

[fallow patrol]

Anyways added heretic jewels and I can actually do some damage

(note having just "T.res-" I was still getting zeroed out, and having just the double down I was hitting for ~800k it seems)

[ionic saddle]

(2611+100 = 2711%)

you're fighting a 542.2% of normal f.jorm's res even with double t.res down, i think that's to be expected
(double downs are -80% iirc, cmiiw)

[fallow patrol]

So Towerfall + Stasis is technically viable, just is gonna take ages. But overall I have no clue what would be a reasonable way to approach this/a build to take on these level of raids (that isn't stasis cheese/not party play)

[junior compass]

It's called "nerfs"

[glossy badger]

Its literally called anguish, agony for this reason. To make your gaming experience miserable

🤣

[ionic saddle]

time to do chip damage -> die > refight the raid
like 6 years ago (for me)

[severe vector]

Imagine doing this Ang 50 and only getting mats

(gonna be me)

[fallow patrol]

I just realized that the game is setting me to AL143 for some reason, so it's even worse than I originally thought

[ionic saddle]

it sets you up to a higher AL (than you originally were) because of the shackles?

[fallow patrol]

Yes though it's not supposed to, seems to be a bug with the shackles being higher than my base AL

[ionic saddle]

that's an insane bug ||free sneak peek to your possible stats||

[fallow patrol]

You should have seen when Odie accidently quadruple applied ALs like 2 weeks ago

[warped terrace]

Casual 2 million Ward

[fallow patrol]

I think this is exactly what we need

[severe vector]

After some serious testing, it's actually quite an easy fix;

We need 2m+ ward

That is all

[warped terrace]

The funniest thing is, that’s only around 200 more Dex than my AL 10, level 232 Deity right now

[severe vector]

BeoH problems :/

AL99x4 has less dex than al10 deity

[warped terrace]

Not less, but not much more lmao

[river briar]

With reduced ward coverage value. Will it be possible to redline for realm classes? As DB will not work

[severe vector]

In it's current state, no

But it's beta and things change

[rancid surge]

Hey urm... is crit damage functioning correctly? I know it's going to be less but uh...

Depending on the content I'm doing between 50-90% less damage o.o

[lunar cosmos]

do you have crit malus in your anguish?

[steep scaffold]

Hehe all I see is issues for classes that aren't gilga 😎

[junior compass]

This is like 33% less damage

But it depends on your build and what multipliers you are using

[orchid pendant]

unironically looks very fun

[fallow patrol]

It's genuinely impossible I believe

[cold grove]

Plus it becomes enraged

[fallow patrol]

I have been trying to come up with builds on how to tackle these Ang50 raids but I have had 0 success

[orchid pendant]

I'd love to chip away at it slowly for a month or 5

[past latch]

Do some damage, wait 15 minutes, repeat 😆
(I'm not saying this is maybe good gameplay. But it does mean any raid is eventually killable)

[fallow patrol]

it zero's me out at AL143 with full Ang49 gear, full buffs and def/res -

[past latch]

Rend/Epee?

[fallow patrol]

Crit dmg is decreased by 53%...

[past latch]

That's just an M2 decrease

[orchid pendant]

tried sands of aaru? /deity spells ||/s||

[past latch]

I'm not saying Epee is good or sustainable, but it should deal damage

A teeny tiny amount of damage

[fallow patrol]

I actually did try aaru, and it also gets zero'd out LOL

[orchid pendant]

ok then it's impossible

wait are we losing and getting 4 new emos?

[past latch]

Keep in mind buffs do not impact penetration in any way aside from for basic attack

[orchid pendant]

[past latch]

Sands of Aaru only has an M1 of 2.3(?) iirc

[ornate prawn]

Time to get a increase to basic attacks amity with crit and faction - no biggy

[past latch]

Epee is 5

[fallow patrol]

Faction dmg is decreased

(well the 4 main elements)

[severe vector]

if you can somehow do 25k damage a round, assuming 1 minute set up / 15 minute timer, it would take you almost a year to kill it if played non stop

[ornate prawn]

Holy dark or dragon then 😄

[orchid pendant]

i assume you tried towerfall and it falled

[ornate prawn]

And you still only get current rewards for that, totally worth our time and effort

[warped terrace]

That’s still higher than anything in my kit at level 232 lmao. (Yes, I wouldn’t be doing an ang50 raid at level 232.)

[orchid pendant]

it's tied to Al i don't think you're getting to 50 anytime soon

I'm not getting close to 50 anytime soon

[warped terrace]

I know, lol

I’m 95% sure the highest m1 skill I own is Tidalseal II, which is 2.2.

Excluding Apex, of course

Neutra has an M1 of, I’m pretty sure, 9

[fallow patrol]

Okay wow Epee is the first thing I've had actually do damage to it (and surprisingly more than I was expecting), still completely unreasonable but I do take back my statement about it being impossible

And even though the gear for this build has far lower anguish levels I can't see that making enough of a difference to matter

[warped terrace]

That’s actually another reason we need a Mage equivalent to the BoF spec

No, Sequencer does not fulfill this niche

[past latch]

Ultima 2 has an M1 of 6

[cold grove]

Try a fat pact next 🗿

[warped terrace]

Frankly, it kind of sucks that there are so many specs in the game yet so few are viable for endgame content. But that’s a different topic.

[warped terrace]

I do tend to forget that Ultima II exists. Nobody uses it. Lol

[cold grove]

It started being used a bit with repetition flasks

Since you can just spam it that way

[warped terrace]

Ah, that makes sense

[cold grove]

But yeah, that's just niche and very recent

[warped terrace]

I haven’t seen that but fair

(Also, lol that we’re back to the pre-rework days where endgame players buy Deity for the spells but actually use them on a different class.)

[past latch]

That is how Orna works and has always worked lol

Every class buys other classes to use their skills/spells

It's a unique feature of the game

I'm not saying raids shouldn't be turned down btw 😆

I just wanted to prove it wasn't technically impossible

[fallow patrol]

Me and 7ALs in grand summoner got this 😎

But yeah, raids defiantly need to be toned down, but I am quite enjoying trying to theory craft new anguish strategies!
(if anyone has any suggestions of what to try lmk)

[warped terrace]

I mean, yeah, I know. But certain classes are bought only for spells, and rarely if ever played. Currently that includes GSH and t9 SA. But in the past it’s also included Hara and, notably, Deity—which was what I was joking about.

[cold grove]

0 M1 🗣️

[past latch]

(For anyone not in the loop, Blood Pact M1 is based on summon HP)

[cold grove]

Yeah, sad they capped it in pvp

[warm oasis]

this is almost exactly what kingdom raids were like in 2019

[oak orbit]

Looking like high ang content is something for party play atm. Im super fine with it but there should be a way to speed turns up but i have absolutely zero ideas for solutions here

[junior compass]

I have a solution: complain to Odie

[warm oasis]

maybe thats the point, multiple players being required?

[oak orbit]

Quick question:
When i ress a beoH that 2nd chance'd what happens to the pet?

Any1 knows?

[junior compass]

4 x 0 = 0

[pastel sequoia]

I wonder how the anguish bonuses/maluses behave when in group if everyone pick different paths

[cold grove]

Yep

[pastel sequoia]

🤔

[past latch]

If it's on that same floor my guess is the pet is still dead. It'll be back on the next floor

In raiding, goodbye pet

[oak orbit]

Pretty sure its based on Who summons the raid

"Pretty sure" is a strong feeling lol id say "likely" instead

[warm oasis]

do anguish raids end when the leader dies, like now?

[weary oriole]

Last I checked yes, but I'd like to push for that not to be the case

Not anguish 50, since that's a bit ridiculous, but here's Me Konq and Yoshi tackling a 29 raid

(Only last bit, but it shows we ran it in one attempt)

Only yoshi was allowed to be party leader because he had the tankiness.

[pastel sequoia]

this can open some builds for party play

hope they update that whole party leader piece

[warm oasis]

if party is gonna be necessary for high anguish then wayvessels are gonna also be necessary

tl;dr itd be nice to build more of them, and just have one active at a time

[junior compass]

Can you explain why you want more than 1 wv?

[warped terrace]

Honestly, that’s probably not an intended mechanic but it would be a nice nod to Orna’s source material. Thinking about FF1, where you always had your Warrior as the party leader because characters higher up in the party list were more likely to be attacked, so you ordered by descending tankiness.

[pastel sequoia]

The problem is if you have a healer/reviver, it can't revive the leader because the run ends as soon as it dies 🙈

unless the leader is the tank and the one that can revive

[warm oasis]

expanded tl dr includes stuff like

• dont waste a party slot on wv alt
• other wv alt issues (Tim's Mom, you can stay)
• use WV on a break at lunch when not in OT

[balmy folio]

They should fixed their potato server before release those co-op playstyle

Feels funny if stuck when you guys done buff & prepare to kill the raid.

[past latch]

Do you play Orna or Aethric?

[balmy folio]

2700% hp boost on raid, might take a hour if keep stuck.

[past latch]

That's a relevant question because most of the time Orna's servers are fine

[balmy folio]

I playing hoa, orna dont have lagging problem ？

Omg

[past latch]

There are certain people with self-infliced lagging problems due to inventory issues, but generally the game is pretty smooth even in party play

[keen charm]

Did someone mention wayvessels?

😂

[past latch]

RRR said multiple wayvessels, not reactivating your home WV from the return to OT function lmao

I'm not against multiple wayvessels, like as an upgrade to an Outpost (with only the most recently activated one 'working')

[keen charm]

He just said use wayvessel on lunch when not in ot

[eternal jackal]

I dont see any issue with having multiple wayvessels, provided you could not OT to them, and you stil lhad to reactivate daily. Its the same as making a WV alt with less alts and more party space.

[junior compass]

Multiple open wayvessels?

[past latch]

For me, no

[junior compass]

Why not

[past latch]

Eh, I don't like the feel of it but I guess it wouldn't be super unbalanced either.

[eternal jackal]

I would cap at something like 3, but really dont see any issue as long as you go out and open them.

[junior compass]

So we rework outposts to function like wayvessels

[past latch]

I was only thinking of it as a way for you to travel to other players' OTs when you're at work/somewhere else - not a way to travel between your own WVs

[severe vector]

Bring the GPS aspect back, have to physically be there in a party like pogo raids

[eternal jackal]

Let people wv to dungeons once a day or buy a 3 dollar remote dungeon pass

[junior compass]

$5 for 3x wayvessel keys, they open wayvessels remotely

[rough nebula]

Aethric's servers performance appears to be historically stable under our target of <100ms response time

if you're experiencing any issues, it would be local

[junior compass]

Uh-oh

[rough nebula]

do i smell a tos violation

[junior compass]

The faintest whiff

Just suggesting monetization for Orna 😎

[keen charm]

The game has lost the multiplayer aspect along the way. Some of my best memories are from party play.

[rough nebula]

what is different now? i see people playing multiplayer just as much

[past latch]

I'm definitely not against some way to travel to other players' OTs when away from home.

I'm only against being able to open up the WV at your OT through the return to OT feature because it enables massive alting exploits

[junior compass]

But you can already do that if your wv is open

Do you mean if your wv is closed

[keen charm]

Try to manage a kingdom and discord server and the current state of the game doesn’t really promote the camaraderie it once did.

[past latch]

Grumbuck was suggesting letting people re-open their WVs remotely

To assist with party play (iirc)

[junior compass]

I don't know your experience but my kingdom does alright

We chat a lot in-game and in discord

We do party play, raids, etc

[keen charm]

I mean I still drive my route and open wayvessels. It’s not a huge deal.

[rough nebula]

i understand you're having a different experience, but could you help me understand what changed in the game to cause it?

[keen charm]

So this is pre summoner

There was a time that party play dungeons were a super fun aspect of the game imo

There were multiple discord servers that promoted this particular activity

They are all but ghost towns now

[rough nebula]

and you are saying that the summoner class existing changed the fun you are having in party play? i'm not sure i'm following

[keen charm]

I’m just adding that as a time reference

[junior compass]

What did party play dungeons look like

[severe vector]

A lot of this has moved to kingdom channels (for reference, my kingdom group almost always has party dungeons going)

[keen charm]

There is so much to do solo that doesn’t really promote making the time or spending the energy to find a party or gather kingdom mates

[eternal jackal]

Personally, I think a lot of the issue is that people outgrew the content, hoping that gets somewhat resolved with Anguish 2.0. Why take time getting together partying up and waiting for other peoples turns when you can do the same content by yourself?

[junior compass]

Alt play probably ruined that

[severe vector]

a little, yes

[junior compass]

We get together for party dungeons because we get 4x the runs

[past latch]

I think a number of things impacted party play:

1. Players generally getting stronger and no longer needing to run with other people - running in a party is slower/less efficient than solo
2. The Unfelled Concord letting people run dungeons on a 1-2 hour cooldown means party play no longer helps you get more runs in as much
3. General community sentiment change over time, for no specific reason

[junior compass]

There's an inherent benefit to organizing party dungeons, that benefit disappears if people use alts to run the same dungeons over and over again

[keen charm]

With some of the anguish raiding that has been posted it gives a little excitement for a party style play

[eternal jackal]

One thing I'll add about when I used to do party play is that I always felt like a passenger leeching. I didnt have an active role to take, which A) Isnt that engaging and B) when you have a 4 person party with 3 leeches, people start to lose attention and it gets slower for everyone.

[keen charm]

I absolutely loved carrying

[eternal jackal]

I still routinely use party play to split raids etc.

[warped terrace]

I definitely got a bunch of dungeon carries with the Slimes. Would’ve gotten even more if I weren’t averse to being carried too much, especially at pre-t10.

Now, “real” party dungeons (without a carry) are rarer imo, but they do still happen. Hopefully they’ll happen more with 2.0!

[keen charm]

For sure to help lower levels in kingdom but end game it’s non existent unless you are 50/50 raids

[junior compass]

I feel like nobody should feel like a leech in party play. Everyone is contributing their keys and time, and everyone is benefitting in rewards. One person is just pressing more buttons

I have definitely fallen asleep being carried though

[keen charm]

I would run a Fafnir with a revive spec occasionally. Coming up with new ways to play seemed interesting.

[past latch]

We are wildly off the rails for the "Balance Patch" part of this, but in Anguish 2.0 dungeons so far there isn't really as much of a problem with players sitting back and having a free ride

[eternal jackal]

I wouldnt feel like I was a leech if I had the reliable ability (or even the need to) to block, draw aggro. As a gilga my role was, if I happened to get a turn throw a stun dart at Realmshifter

[past latch]

It doesn't fix that feeling for outside of Anguish, but I don't know if you really could fix it. Or how

[junior compass]

Give gilga a native Provoke passive

[eternal jackal]

IMO even if they wanted to keep it as a ability they could, just make it not fall off, and more reliable

[keen charm]

Teaming up to tackle difficult content just seems fun to me

[eternal jackal]

I just stopped using it because 99% of the time It would fall off before the enemy got an attack and that 1% of the time, good chance the attack would still hit the carry

[junior compass]

Little abilities like that would definitely help provide a role to players in party play, and would help in ang2.0

[errant loom]

Does the damage cut goes for dragon damage as well or only the four elements?

[junior compass]

What damage cut

[errant loom]

The Additive Stack up

Instead of multiple

[junior compass]

Applies to all elements yes

[errant loom]

Ufff Cuts my damage in half than

[junior compass]

And to crit multipliers, though idk how it interacts with the class crit multipliers

It is intended to nerf towerfall a good bit, as well as other stuff

[past latch]

idk how it interacts with the class crit multipliers
It does not fyi

[keen charm]

One more thing and I’ll stop but the idea of gearing for anguish seems like a perfect opportunity to share in the misery with friends.

[errant loom]

This Patch will be my end

[past latch]

Heretic & RS internal multipliers are still multiplied

[junior compass]

Ok so I think my math was right

[past latch]

I tested this very extensively back when this balance patch was in beta the first time lol

[junior compass]

I went from 16mil to 10mil in one instance

[past latch]

The theme of this patch is adapting to the new challenges in front of you and the tweaked rules of the game

[junior compass]

Wait. Is -50% crit damage just additive as well then

[past latch]

Si

[junior compass]

That's nice then

[past latch]

It goes both ways

[rancid surge]

I'm currently getting 17-20 on live and a flat 10 on beta

Is Spiked Shield 3 similarly losing almost 50% damage here? 😬

I did check for maluses just to make sure and not currently running any anguish

[errant loom]

I m exactly on 52.3% of the original damage, what a cut, can t see anything good one that, rs are getting Hit the hardest

[past latch]

Prom hands bow + 2x 40% Crit amity
Live: 3.16x Damage
Beta: 2.3x Damage

That is the worst case scenario and it's a 37% damage reduction

For Realmshifter, that is

And that is without building for one or more elemental modifiers to boost damage and regard some of that lost %

[errant loom]

Live: 3.16x1.1

My head from quetzel

3.47 vs 2.4

On my dragon damage: 3.04 vs 2.3

[junior compass]

1.4×1.4×1.1^6 = 3.472
Vs
1+0.4+0.4+0.6 = 2.4

For a 2h, crit multipliers only

[past latch]

I forgot about the Fallen Sky Cowl to be honest 😅

[errant loom]

1000 basic damage: old: 1000x 3.04 dragon x 3.47x2.5 krit= 26372
New: 1000x 2.3 dragon x 2.4x2.5 krit= 13800

Is that right calculated? 2.5 cause i m rs

[junior compass]

Where are your dragon multipliers coming from

[rancid surge]

I see the math but my numbers aren't lining up with it. I'm still taking an almost 50% damage reduction on AVs which also means I can't one shot some of the mid-hp Tower mobs 🤔

Ultima, I have amities and such that I don't notice the damage difference much at all which I find a bit amusing since I thought that was the primary target

Again, I'm curious if there is a bug in the calculation somewhere

[viral tangle]

Why are we ravaging crit but SS is untouched? I dont get it?

[junior compass]

I don't think Ultima was the primary target

[errant loom]

Two amities with 30, 50 from book of dragon, 20 from armor

[junior compass]

What content, what's the build

No way to say anything without more info

[river briar]

I would like to start again noting that Selean hands will be equipped by all and as much as possible as they are still an outlier

[junior compass]

Yeah math checks out. 52.3% of previous damage

Stacking up on dragon and on crit

[bold wigeon]

That is wildly low.

[junior compass]

The update hits multiple instances of the same multiplier hard

For ultima, there's a lot of ways to buff it - crit and a bunch of elements

Towerfall has 4x elements to be buffed

Plus pet stats

Ara vesta build are crit only, they get hit hard. So does elemental melee crit

[warped terrace]

Well, yes and no.

They’re an outlier in the sense they’re probably the strongest option right now. But in terms of calculation they’re actually less outlying now, since they’ve always been additive.

[rancid surge]

Testing on aMorri to get numbers that are relevant:

-DC
-GM
-Mag 2
-Snotra
-Iconoclast to 70%
-Sigilstorm
-AV3 is 17-19m on live
-AV3 is 9-10.5m on beta

[junior compass]

Made sure your stats are identical between beta and live?

[rancid surge]

Yep. First thing I did was check Anguish and stats

[rotund lagoon]

I don't mean to discredit the numbers you're getting but testing on the training cactus with minimal set up could provide more accurate results

[junior compass]

What about amorri buffs

And yeah no need to get all buffed up, but should still be working

[rancid surge]

Waiting for her channel to fall off - also tested on Fey Chimera, Sphinx and Horsemen, similar results for all of them

[junior compass]

This is the math it should be

[rancid surge]

Testing my PvP builds on beta vs cactus and disciples of Finesse and Spiked Shield/Ward will definitely beat sigilstorm builds with these changes

If the H.Ara even survives to turn 2/3 in the first place

If the numbers are all working as intended, that's all fine and dandy, I'm mostly trying to understand if I'm missing something or there is a bugged calculation somewhere

[junior compass]

I mean, there might be

[visual granite]

SS3 laughing in the corner

This has nothing to do with PVP at this point, something really has to change with SS3 damage scaling at higher ALs. The gap is just getting bigger here

[river briar]

I am once again noting the stats the sele hands are unmatched. Additionally they are vital to the large damage numbers seen on SS3 (as well as ALs)

[visual granite]

I ran a test without selene hands to really compare apples to apples. The rest is full juice. AL 49. Best amities possible (40crit/30dragon on hs3, 30dragon on ss3)

Both oracle spec on RealmD

Im not even maximizing crit chance here. With ashen pinions or bristles im hitting even lower with hs3

[normal pagoda]

Spiked shield setup is the only reliable way I've found to clear anguish towers in the beta as well

It isn't really affected by any of the maluses, and still has all of its other perks (and some new ones)

[visual granite]

Let me know if this isnt a based comparison im happy to test other things

The winner is clear too. Im not even on gilga this is realmD

And no selene hands

Imagine how much worse this is at 100 ALs 😅 and with selene hands

[river briar]

This all the way ^ thanks for the side by side S2iVi

[kindred cave]

Yeah so far with all the modifiers, already meta strats tend to be more meta, and the rest kinda falls off quickly. But i also imagine this really hard to balance out. For now i would love the see the "you have an X% chance to instantly lose" like ward failure to go byebye.

[oak orbit]

Ward fail and buff fade are definitely a bit too annoying.
Meta might lean a bunch over to TMM + autobuff gear

Im sure things will change, im talking about the present state only

[warped terrace]

Buff fade can likely be offset by Deity's or Dorito's passive

Ward fail, I have yet to see any viable counterplay

Which doesn't mean none exists

But it's definitely a bit tougher to find

[ornate prawn]

Buff fade is a flat % and Deity/Dorado passive doesn't affect it if I recall - may be hard to test overall due to low percent

[warped terrace]

Deity's Staying Power is -40% Buff Fade, and I think at max Dorado's is -50%

That's big enough that it should be testable

[oak orbit]

I think those dont apply to permabuffs

Source: none actually lol

[warped terrace]

I might've been wrong about Dorado. Dorado's increases the fade rate of negative statuses, but idk if it does anything for positive statuses?

Deity's definitely does both

[oak orbit]

I was about to ask that 😂

I feel like shackling AND buff fade are too 💀 💀 💀 💀

[ornate prawn]

As a deity I defintely lost buffs regularly

[past latch]

Dorado only makes debuffs go away faster, nothing stays longer

[ornate prawn]

and stays longer was for temp buffs no?

[past latch]

All buffs become temp buffs lol

[oak orbit]

Cant argue with that lol

[ornate prawn]

well has a chance to fall off doesn't seem to make it be temp but I don't know the code lol

[warped terrace]

Many sad. But thanks for the clarificaiton!

[past latch]

Yeah, from a backend perspective I don't know

From a player perspective they're all temporary

I don't know if Odie hooked into the same debuff fade/stay code or not

[warped terrace]

It'll be interesting if Anguish causes t.buffs to be preferable over "perma" buffs, if the former can have their fade rate reduced but the latter cannot

But idk if that's actually how it's going to work

[warped terrace]

From a human perspective, everything is temporary

[ornate prawn]

The real meta ^

[rancid surge]

I don't know either but I did test crit poise and Staying Power a fair bit in beta and they seemed to be helping the fade rates 🤷‍♂️

I can run some more tests and get numbers up when off work

[dusky radish]

Buff RS as a whole and make base RS playable again 👍

[warped terrace]

I trust you know better than me because I don't play it, but I'd thought base RS was perfectly playable? I'd thought Corvus was the one nobody liked.

[dusky radish]

lol im just trying to troll as I dont think anytime soon we will see real RS changes but....

base suffers the same as Corvus in real endgame. Ang2 is to be seen how influential it may be in terms of providing an enviroment that the base/corvus kit could be viable for but in general their kits are very slow/long winded and high risk middling reward when compared to most modern forms of classes now. Its all in on redline mechanics and even when it achieves it now its often outperformed by every class when ones survivability is considered. They really have no place and havent had a place in modern Orna since Dorados introduction tbh. Dorado plays more like the rest of the classlines and as such shows how little RS and Corv can offer in nearly every aspect of gameplay.

I suspect with dex changes and listed stats we can liably assume Dorado may contine to outperform them going forward to as the massive stat and survivability loss for base 400 Att and tons of frustrations is almost always a terrible trade. Likely to only have viablity when you want to setup 3x zerk strats but from little reading I am thinking this is being hit byt certain Ang effects so, my point again.

The classes offer too little, too flimsy and take way too much time to setup and have real effective results for said time to setup. The simplest comparison can be something like Ara who gets the SAME stat buff with BETTER stats, BETTER abilities and gains this stat line by BUFFING itself.

[warped terrace]

RIP.

I appreciate the writeup, at least

[past latch]

Forwarding this everywhere for maximum spread. Get testing!

[ornate prawn]

Apparently only for orna

[past latch]

We are in the Orna discord

[ornate prawn]

yeah HoA feedback channels are only 3 and it's only been 3 of us talking

[slim gorge]

There was a code posted in Aethric before the Orna code

#1369695088975806626 message

[ornate prawn]

Oh we are up to 7 now

[slim gorge]

There's 44 mirrors been done for Aethric

Not chatting in there doesn't help solve the problem of chat not happening there 😅

[ornate prawn]

Most of us were over here chatting since no ORN presence and there are more specific chats created here

[cold grove]

There are no Aethric ORN?

[weary oriole]

We do have HoA ORN members... where are they? :o

[cold grove]

Just 1?

Dang

[weary oriole]

Well to be fair it is a volunteer job, and this is a work day

[past latch]

There are 2-3

[ornate prawn]

I know dangy is working on it but last we heard was 1

[slim gorge]

Warren, Pip, Baard are all active. One more I want to bring on soon

Warren joined recently

[cold grove]

Become an ORN yourself

[weary oriole]

Warrecently.

[past latch]

Warren goes by a different name on the official Aethric discord

I can never remember what it is

[ornate prawn]

They wouldn't have me I am too argumentative

[slim gorge]

It's tough to remember

[ornate prawn]

lol Warren is warren on there

[slim gorge]

on account of sameness lol

[ornate prawn]

He has another one on the Amity Project though

[weary oriole]

Is it Warren perchance?

[ornate prawn]

lol no

Actually not sure I should call it out

[past latch]

Yeah that's his actual in game name

It was his name on the official discord too iirc

[ornate prawn]

and I thought Pip was a mod for the Discord who is really an Orna Main

[past latch]

Pip plays both as far as I know

[ornate prawn]

But Mods weren't supposed to be both ORN and MOD /shrug not my rules and probably just hearsay

Pip is a great person too

[past latch]

Someone tell @weary oriole

And Big Yoshi

And Konq

[slim gorge]

But Mods weren't supposed to be both ORN and MOD
Who made that rule?
Often there's great crossover - hyper engaged in community, really level headed and already geared towards productivity!

[ornate prawn]

I thought it was something you said once upon a time a long time ago

[weary oriole]

Wait, I'm a mod?

[past latch]

I think almost all of the mods were on the original ORN team

Only a few missing

[weary oriole]

rip hood and stack

[ornate prawn]

https://tenor.com/view/pour-drink-pouring-alcohol-respect-gif-5359107

[weary oriole]

(This is simba erasure)

[past latch]

Simba was not a mod when the ORN was founded

[ornate prawn]

Wasn't ORN founded before HoA?

[past latch]

ORN was founded in June 2023

[ornate prawn]

I know I get timelines all messed up, also we probably should bring this back around to Balance Patch sorry for hijacking

[past latch]

Other groups may or may not predated the ORN, it has been lost to history

[twin rivet]

can we have Dara's increased effect chance when using an apex skill on Dursa too ? To compensate a little for making him useless at almost every contents compared to Dara 🥹

[ornate prawn]

I mean, they aren't exactly useless. They just aren't as effective as other options now. Still viable though

D. Ursa is back to basically being a jack of all trades and 2nd to everyone else

[twin rivet]

Na i didnt said Dursa was a bad class. i'm saying i got almost 0 use for it as a deity player if i own Dara.
Dursa apex damage skill are nerfed compared to base and Dara, his lines are hard to use/manage, t.att buff proc rarely compared to what happen on Dara when you're raiding

and yes, t.att buff proc pretty well for horde dungy... But why would i do horde as Dursa if i have Dara ? or even base

[rancid surge]

Why isn't DUrsa continuing its Anguish Towers and Ang50 Hordes at AL0?

These aren't little things 😅 not to mention PvP stuff

[twin rivet]

?

[past latch]

Because people would rather do those on DAra of course

[rancid surge]

Which I understand if you're ascended, maybe but... DAra in Towers????

[twin rivet]

Hey i'm pro nerfing chanelalus eh

[past latch]

Yeah, Windtamer or Qatvanga

[twin rivet]

Windtamer work well indeed, and you got a huge nuke AoE that actually work well, which is not the case for Dursa

[severe vector]

On that, windtamer might be a lot more viable again at anguish towers with the 2h malus and elemental/crit nerfs

I think base deity did it better tho iirc

[rancid surge]

Storming Tempest shouldn't be strong enough even with a Hybrid Lute for DAra to get into Anguish Towers unless you're super duper ascended?

Looks like I must be missing something afterall

[ornate prawn]

Swansong* Qatv gets a lot of resists and immunities in Tower

[past latch]

AL 0

[severe vector]

Swan has lower pen, and a 2h malus and crit change will kick it in the shins lol

[rancid surge]

Still not convinced Deity needs Buffs just changes and maybe nerfs depending - adding one celestials passive to the other just makes them seem even more same-y IMO and is more identity than balance

Wheras DAra passive to 100 and Channelalus being a t9 skill make sense to me

[past latch]

Erdr1ck specifically said AL 0 and I just responded to that lol. AL 0 Qatvanga is stronger

[ornate prawn]

Deity is back to where I was arguing about the pre-class ID update. Dara is great, and Dursa is again subpar

I am actually exploring Beo atm because of this

Fair btw Knight

[past latch]

Both are better than many other classes, DUrsa just potentially lacks whenever compared to DAra

So I'm not exactly crying for Deity right now

[rancid surge]

I feel like the data Odie shared a ways back showed that Deity(s) is anything but subpar unless maybe compared to each other haha

[ornate prawn]

It's not just Dara - its BeoA, BeoH, Gilga etc

[river briar]

Right back to other classes have it greener

[ornate prawn]

I can't lie with data, but I haven't seen it

[twin rivet]

didnt see the charts, but i think you mostly focus on anguished towers

[rancid surge]

I'll see if I can dig through and find it when I'm on break

[river briar]

Its up top. You can search odie and image in this channel I think

[twin rivet]

and i fully agree that chanelalus need a nerf

[rancid surge]

Oh the one I was thinking was from an old thread

Unless I missed it being re shared

[ornate prawn]

No, like I said, it's still viable, more viable than some of the celestials, it just doesn't have a niche that isn't better suited by others

[river briar]

Can you explain further?

[ornate prawn]

Threads aren't searchable

separately

[river briar]

So sad

[river briar]

This graph

[ornate prawn]

I think Dursa can do a lot of stuff and has flexibility to do content, other classes including Dara can just do it better

[rancid surge]

I dunno if I'd go quite so far as it say it doesn't have a niche better served elsewhere

But bland and less than DAra, oh yeah

So a really small niche if you will

But Ang1.0 50 dungeons and Ang10 Towers while AL0 aren't nothing

[river briar]

Yeah it is like DAra is over powered or something

As though it can do everything much easier then all other options

[ornate prawn]

I think that data actually supports what I just said honestly

And that's just dungeons

Not the worst, not the best

The 1 turn chan gave it an advantage in Towers for sure

[river briar]

Dursa has the best success rate of any other option with that graph

[ornate prawn]

2h weapons and windtamer shield I think beat that out

[twin rivet]

Agree, and thus, following the only thing that he was doing better than dara being nerfed to the ground, i cant really see a usecase where i'll think "i need to switch to Dursa for this"

[ornate prawn]

Huh? are we looking at the same graph? The higher the blue and red the better right?

[rancid surge]

Will check back in later next classes starting

[river briar]

The closer they are together means they complete content without fail

[ornate prawn]

Deity, Dara, Gilga, GSA, BEOH, BeoA, Heretic, Realm, GS and Beo were all higher

[fiery maple]

Blue bar is usage, red bar is "successful" usage.
So for overall success rate you need to look at the ratio of blue to red.

[river briar]

Thanks Fuximus. That is a better way to explain it

[ornate prawn]

So that is tricker to determine just off that graph then but I see your point

[glad shard]

The game chat won't load messages

[ornate prawn]

Sounds like something for the bug thread if it's beta game chat

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1369693286994018396

[glad shard]

Yeah

[twin rivet]

also not related to balance

[glad shard]

And I don't know my device and other parts of it

[ornate prawn]

Hrm, I think that data is missing a lot of data points. For instance, GS is often the starter class for many, while Deity is usually seen as a more mature class. So I could see higher failure rates for GS, next would be Beo as the gradual switch at least for HoA

[glad shard]

I was also wondering what balance is. I'm shocked I don't know it

[river briar]

I haven’t started this game in a long time. And I dont know the new player experience. What I see is a graph that shows how people like to play, and how successful they are at it

If the question is, CAN Dursa compete content. That graph answers Yes, and it can do it well.

If the question is: Are the diety cele class options equal in power. It gets really complicated trying to use that graph.

My counter point to your statement on dursa vs dara is both can do the content. If efficiency is in question, dara probably needs many nerfs to be inline with other options. Or other classes need a ton of nerfs to catch up

The cat is definitely out of the bag on that fact

[ornate prawn]

I disagree with nerfing one, why not raise up the other?

Why not raise up all the others to make them do better

why do we always go to nerf

I do know, though, that the data in those graphs should probably include a few more data points, like the age of the account, gear acquired, if possible.

My Orna toon was probably 5 years old, and my HoA toon is almost 2 years old. I have had multiple alts at various stages, too. I try to keep a feel for leveling and lower ascension, as there are a lot more players at those stages than in the late game.

[dusky radish]

Buffing is better then nerfing 90% of the time. One of those exclusions is when something is generally a strong outlier or when something is performing too well in content. If youhave these 2 situationss then raising all ships means youll entirely disrupt all balance by everyone becoming busted and/or youll now have to adjust everything else to make it competitive again when you could just reduce that outlier/overperformer and achieve good balance again. This game has been heavy handed on buffs for years now. Player power is not low and challenges are non existent, gaps between classes/performances are absurdly high. See: Dara performance, even with a 100% passive its going to likely massively outperform any other class in endless as it has before. trying to raise all ships to being able to F1000 endless watching a movie and half asleep would require insane buffs.

[ornate prawn]

I would argue that other classes already did the F1000 thing before Dara ever did

[dusky radish]

F1000 farm is different from F1000 sweat

[ornate prawn]

I personally am doing 300-350 farm not F1000 farm

[dusky radish]

RS was previous best endlesser and getting F500ish was a real accomplishment and had tons of RNG attached to it. F500 Dara is a given with the right gearing and spec swapping at the right time to semi farm

[ornate prawn]

I can do 300-350 on RS too, Will be trying beo soon as well to see if I can't do that

[dusky radish]

My first Dara run on beta before it was shipped was a F900 run semi farm. My first Attempt. Dara endless is singlehandedly the most broken thing this game has. There is a reason most any endgame sweat just HoCs to Deity for easy content then goes back to main if they want.

[ornate prawn]

There are always exceptions to the rule, and you are definitely one of them 😄

I don't see any Deity in the HoA community hitting 1k floors

[dusky radish]

You run full farm(Terrors mean its still better then RS anyways) untill stat diffs come in then you swap semi farm. Results in a fast run that mostly plays itself its so easy and next to no risk.

[ornate prawn]

like at all

If that was true they would have been nerfed by now because its been almost a year right?

Towerfall took a year

[dusky radish]

There are examples of legit AL0s or AL50 and lower going to F500+ iirc

[twin rivet]

if it is only about "being able to do the content", we could just go back to 2023 deity too.
In beta state, there is only ONE spell i really want to use with my dursa now, Baryalus for some really niche scenarios.
that's sad since apex spells are deity's identity/core now

[past latch]

To be fair that's probably because many fewer HoA players consistantly run Endless

[dusky radish]

No, often broken things sit in the game for a long time. I believe 100% stat passive on Dara is still busted and not addressing the issue at all too 🤷‍♂️ Will still easily outperform all competition by a large margin.

[ornate prawn]

I mean that is fair, I also don't see more than a very small percent in Orna running 1000f farms either

Most people run 3-5 Dungeons an hour for Farming and 1000f would make it 1-2 an hour

I am not saying impossible just saying seems improbable

[twin rivet]

AL 100 "no sweat" farm in endless is more around floor 400/600. which is already huge i concede

[dusky radish]

1000 is just an example number of how ludicrous it gets. Simply put a well geared AL 30 ish range RS will often F300-350 and runs the risk of dropping the run on every floor with a 40% hit chance and dying to every DoT in the game. I mildly geard Dara with no AL investment can push F500 easily. 6-700 with swap to semi farm and some ALs. F800+ with good gearing and ALs. This all while having next to no real risk until the very end, no complex gameplay and relatively low gear requirements

[ornate prawn]

I mean if we were talking AL0 I would be in the group crying for a nerf but AL 100 isn't exactly a walk in the park right?

I am a well geared 43ish AL Deity and def not hitting 6-700 in farm, again I think the D. Ursa 1 turn removal was ok just saying they are meh but some of the data is defintely showing that as a perception issue

[dusky radish]

To further the disaprity compare it to the worst endlesser and not the 2nd best and gilga like cant even play endless

[oak orbit]

I feel attacked

[rough nebula]

You have 100 candles. One of them is too tall

Your job is to make them all the same height (balanced)

You could take a knife and cut the tall one back a little

Or you could try to add molten wax to each of the other 99, knowing that the hot wax could break any of them or put them further out of balance

That is why nerfing one thing is more stable than buffing 99

[twin rivet]

i definitly not agree with higsby either, floor 600/700 with no AL is just pure RNG combined with god tier loadout that some people have recorded and posted. Then people think is the new standard

[viral tangle]

Can we look at SS the tallest candle lol

[oak orbit]

Is odi philosof?

[glad shard]

I don't know what balance is, but I have a question

[dusky radish]

I said 6-700 requires more effort AL and some better gearing if you reread

[rough nebula]

Additionally, the “buff everything else” argument only works if the counterbalance - monsters, etc - are also buffed. Now we’re changing nearly everything in the game at once, rather than one thing. It’s slow lane to balance

Gamers need to understand that nerfs just as healthy as buffs - or generally healthier

[ornate prawn]

But this isn't 100, it's 18 candles, and this one candle just barely got wax added to it while it's already been cut 4-5 times since that wax was added

[glad shard]

What is the best floor anyone reached and what class did they use

[dusky radish]

Sweat Durse iirce somewhere in the 1000s

[strong badger]

I like the analogy, but if all that ever happened was the cutting of the candles eventually there wouldn't be enough left to light the room. I know this is why we have reworks.

[rough nebula]

The numbers were part of an analogy. The lesson remains

[twin rivet]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/905399210575294484 go here bro ^^

[glad shard]

Okay

[ornate prawn]

There is a hall of fame somewhere with each classes highest for stuff

[rough nebula]

If one candle is too short, then you carefully add wax. There is little risk given you are only working on one candle

There’s generally no need to continue cutting candles when you’re close to balance

[glad shard]

Thank you tyrm

And why are we talking about useless candles

[ornate prawn]

Odie is waxing philisophical today

[junior compass]

The candles are developers, odie is deciding who to fire

Keep up

[twin rivet]

indeed,misread sorry. But i keep my statement for floor 500 with an AL0 "mildly geared"

[strong badger]

That's what I meant normally you seem to have been doing reworks when a class is underperforming and it has been working well

[ornate prawn]

no pun intended

[visual granite]

Since there are a lot of active participants here now, would love to get more input on this - pertaining to SS3 balance
#1369695388432334878 message

[strong badger]

lol

[dusky radish]

The Shields return in all their glory 🎉

[viral tangle]

Im glad SS is having miss chance removed so its just like everything else! but why does it still need to hit harder than every other skill???

[rough nebula]

I was told in the last balance beta that SS would now miss 40% of the time, so damage doesn’t matter, right?

[dusky radish]

Nerf SS, Nerf Deity statlines and make dara like 90% stat, buff RS stat lines, dont let Gilga be useless with SSs tho, make better RS passive thats interactable and fun, make Dorado part of the new RS passive and remove MF from the game and nerf GS because. GG game fixed I am off to touch grass

[viral tangle]

We cut crits by 50%? SS stays the same?

[ornate prawn]

40% miss rate?

[river briar]

Just the short list and manageable right?

[ornate prawn]

I thought SS didn't crit either, I haven't kept up with SS honestly

[glad shard]

Wow that's not good

[ornate prawn]

is that just CS?

[junior compass]

It joke

[glad shard]

Okay

[ornate prawn]

I don't believe that SS is missing 40%

[viral tangle]

Its not missing 40% of the time with ranger spec and added accuracy gilga gets tho. Its just going to make everyone have to go gilga

[ornate prawn]

that would be higher than old realmstrikes

Going to go cactus testing now

[rough nebula]

It was tongue in cheek

[ornate prawn]

lol man

I was about to waste an hour hitting cactus, thanks for saving me

[visual granite]

Honest feedback appreciated 🙏 would hate for this to get lost in the shuffle again. To me this represents one of the biggest balance issues in the game from a skill and class perspective.

[rough nebula]

If it’s that big - there should probably be a dedicated thread

[visual granite]

We have a lot of them

[timid nest]

reintroduce the AL based nerfs to ward

[visual granite]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1219728600467771543
Heres one for example

[visual granite]

That would be a good start for sure

[rough nebula]

Specifically a thread for changing it in the context of this beta

I’m aware of the concerns holistically, of course

[visual granite]

So like a 3.17 Spiked Shield beta feedback thread?

I can start that

[rough nebula]

Like, do we feel it needs to change beyond the miss chance change, in the context of Anguish? Or are we free to see where the meta will go first?

[ornate prawn]

I think at this point a lot of folks have pointed out SS/CS is going to be the meta on release of this patch from the data provided

[visual granite]

The meta already is there yeah

[twin rivet]

from all we seen, meta will be SS

[junior compass]

Spiked shield is basically the only thing not nerfed by current maluses

[visual granite]

Maluses aside

[junior compass]

Anguished gear provides bonuses to hp/ward

[visual granite]

It is outdamaging non ward builds. That is not balanced

[past latch]

It's the classic SS issue of the safest tankiest build also being the best at dealing damage

[twin rivet]

Ultima will be unusable and other crit skill barely playable considering the maluses

[ornate prawn]

Redline also unusable

[past latch]

Yeah, the maluses target elemental and crit skills extremely hard, with a topping of 2H nerfs for good measure.

I think there should be a focus on malus choices being between elements and crits

[ornate prawn]

I may actually be in shock right now

I think most of us actually agree on this

[twin rivet]

so ATM, high anguish is only playable with SS skills.
Hera must be so joyfull

[ornate prawn]

SS Hera being dusted off by some folks now

[past latch]

Dangy better hold tight to his laptop

[visual granite]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370141629444395028

[timid nest]

tbf metas evolve over actual play testing not just discussion threads

[visual granite]

New thread

[visual granite]

100% agreed, but in this case we have so much time of data (1-2 yrs) of ss3 being a severe outlier in balance

And other crit stuff being nerfed furthers the gap in this patch

[jaunty basin]

my GS loses "only" 15% in beta for ultima

[past latch]

SS/CS are barely not the best for all content in live, so nerfing other things will cement them being the best

[jaunty basin]

and if I change build I think I can recoup most of that

[past latch]

(From a Realmshifter persective, to be clear)

[jaunty basin]

quickcast ultima is affected less, oracle is nerfed more

[twin rivet]

tbf, i dint need to play it to know that -40% elem damage AND -30% crit chance AND - 20% crit damages from ang maluses will kill ultima build