3.17 General

[viscid bloom]

Pobably separate

Unless the - accuracy applies first and then your + accuracy from whatever sources you have

[fierce island]

They're likely not separate

I don't know if they stack with each other additively or multiplicatively though.

[viscid bloom]

I'd assume the same way the current +accuracy% sources worked so far

[keen timber]

I like the scroll above Samson’s head freaking out. Means players are less likely to miss story quests. I realize it might not be new, but it’s new to me. (Ignore the raids and bosses; idk who dropped them.)

[desert scaffold]

So about anguish, it took me a long time to lvl up through T9
is it conceivable that T9 players will hit an "Ascension req" for anguish before they hit T10?

and do those ascensions get abandoned on tier 10 class promotion?

[keen timber]

Actually, why are my Atk and Mag lower on beta than on live?

I know Selene Hands boost hybrid damage, but my understanding was that they don’t literally raise Atk and Mag, just increase damage. Was that an incorrect assumption?

This suggests that Selene Hands should boost all damage, not just hybrid damage. Like, imagine I were using Tidalseal without a Hybrid amity. Based on this, I’d expect it to do more damage on live compared to beta, because my Mag is higher on live (despite identical set).

[desert scaffold]

should*?

[fierce island]

I know Selene Hands boost hybrid damage, but my understanding was that they don’t literally raise Atk and Mag, just increase damage. Was that an incorrect assumption?

Yes

[uncut rampart]

selene hands have always boosted atk/mag (stats). not "hybrid damage", that's always been a misnomer.

[fierce island]

One sec, I'll copy the explanation

• 'Hybrid damage will be increased by %', Selene Hands/Arms, Hybrid Monster
  • Your attack will be increased by % of your magic, and your magic will be increased by % of your attack
  • This stacks additively
  • This effects all skills and spells, since it increases your raw stats and is visible on the stats screen.

[uncut rampart]

"hybrid damage" amity, and valhallan hybrid monster passive -- all three are the same thing.
they add a portion of atk to mag and vice versa, calculated out of combat.

[fierce island]

This is why Selene hands are OP

[latent karma]

Possibly would hit the requirement but I'd say not likely. Altar of Ascension is locked until t10 so you wouldnt be able to go past that point.

[fierce island]

Having 5 selene hands in live adds 75% of your magic stat to your attack stat and vice versa

On a class like Deity or Beo this is just a 75% stats boost

[keen timber]

So that implies a Hybrid amity is helpful, but not required for non-hybrid skills to benefit from Hands. Non-hybrid skills will get a damage boost even without the amity. Correct?

[desert scaffold]

oh youre right, I cant even build an altar

[fierce island]

The "hybrid damage" boost has literally no specific interactions with actual hybrid damage

[latent karma]

Whether you hit the point where you're AL blocked likely depends on what the Anguish costs are one it goes live

[desert scaffold]

is that good??

[fierce island]

It only boosts hybrid damage as much as it boosts any other type of damage too

[loud yew]

Yes as anguish is meant to be end game content

[keen timber]

Yeah, so. I think the “fix” for Selene Hands is just to make them do what it says on the tin, and not far-and-away more than that?

Like, I can’t be the first person to suggest that, right? Is it simply infeasible to do that within the codebase?

[hybrid void]

That looks like their base stats with no summon stat buffs

[fierce island]

Long time no see, welcome back

-# Oh you've been back you've just only posted in the channel I don't check in Orna Legends

[hybrid void]

Gotta keep that gs channel in OL alive

[hybrid sluice]

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I know this answer: there are four types of hybrid in Orna

At least, the term "hybrid"

[desert scaffold]

also QoL that would be LITERALLY BIG

make these like 2px bigger

[uncut rampart]

Yeah, idk what to say. I'll just be happily surprised if the 1.15x M1 boost of selenehands goes to a 1.1x M1 boost, let alone making celestial weapons on the same power-tier as competing T10 weapons (as originally intended).

[tribal pond]

+15% Hybrid powwa (verse4 hits 1.15 (x5) harder)

[keen timber]

I’m aware. I actually helped (in a very minor way) to develop the definition of the fourth, “dynamic hybrid.” lol.

I painfully misunderstood which type Selene Hands were, lol. But to me the fix is now clear: Just change which type of Hybrid they are. And probably leave them at +10%, because +15% each was indeed kind of ridiculous—but they don’t need a ton of unrelated maluses if they’re not providing blanket boosts.

[desert scaffold]

selene hands deserve the nerf

[tribal pond]

https://tenor.com/view/nariukiyo-dj-khaled-stop-wait-chill-gif-23353785

[desert scaffold]

let it happen!

[hybrid sluice]

Would they give a bigger boost to verse 4 type skills if changed to that type of boost?

[desert scaffold]

who knows

[hybrid sluice]

That would just be a 10% multiplier like prom hands right? Os that better or worse than 10% more offensive stats

[tribal pond]

there's probably a very very low AL threshhold that it would change over lol

[hybrid sluice]

I guess it's just m1 vs m2

[tribal pond]

also depends on if it's additive or multiplicitive

[uncut rampart]

No.

At the very least, it would start being an M2 booster instead of M1 which is a drastic step down. (M1 is always better per-point than M2)

[uncut rampart]

If you're asking a bunch of SS users to give up 1.5x or more player damage, then I wish you luck. 😅

[tribal pond]

Make it 25% more Hybrid Power, multiplicitive 🗣️

[hybrid sluice]

And then delete beoh 🗣

[keen timber]

They’d theoretically give the exact same boost they do now (or could be tuned to do so), while no longer doing anything for skills that aren’t inherently hybrid (at least unless players put in more investment, eg. an amity).

[tribal pond]

The observation would be "All skills and spells are hybrid" amity lel

then we're cooking

[hybrid sluice]

As the others pointed out, the stat boosts they give currently are more impactful than a multiplier. So this wouldn't be a bad change but you might need to then rework the remaining "increased hybrid damage" effects

I'm not opposed to consistency

[viscid bloom]

If you somehow someway get access to anguish 2.0 as a non-t10 class, you'll be able to get ang 1

[keen timber]

I mean, I think a lot of SS users would be loath to give up their amity slot, but they could keep using SS as-is if they were willing to. At the least, it would seem (to me at least) a more relevant change than tacking on arbitrary maluses to things unrelated to hybrid damage.

[viscid bloom]

Maybe up to 5

Because after that you need Al's to get more

[keen timber]

Honestly, I wouldn’t be opposed to simplifying “hybrid” more broadly

As a concept it’s kind of a mess right now

[tribal pond]

I will simplify a formula we can use moving forward

Attk + Mag ^3 = Hybrid skills stat

[hybrid sluice]

Most ss users are already using hybrid amity because of selene hands

At least that's what I hear

Knight (RS main) uses it for his RS ss build

[fierce island]

Fwiw the actual hybrid amity is like a 1.5% damage boost for me on RS

[loud yew]

Here is a full break down of how hybrid works

[fierce island]

Missing dynamic hybrid

Which is a fake hybrid I guess, but it's real in some ways

[loud yew]

I don't consider that hybrid but I can see how it can be

[fierce island]

It uses a hybrid formula for enemy def/res

[tribal pond]

That's the one where it picks the better stat?

compared to enemy def/res?

[fierce island]

Fuximus may be about to say this, but the formula Verse/Beaststrikes uses is different than the hybrid amity

[hybrid sluice]

Anyone know of a reason to keep around the current function of %hybrid damage effects like selene hands?

[tribal pond]

Terminology probably

[loud yew]

Because it's basically BeoH's identity?

[tribal pond]

Like the effects it does? or the literal name?

[gaunt turtle]

Are you trying to say that Sirith's guide isn't perfect?

[uncut rampart]

I keep deleting messages because there's a lot to say and be particular about 😅

Anyway -- I don't predict that NF is willing to change selene arms in a way that would make celestial weapons competitive with other T10 weapons (as was the original celestial weapon design). And that certainly SS benefits the most from selenearms right now, since there's not that many multipliers that apply to it.

[fierce island]

Hybrid skills use 65% of your attack and 65% of your magic stat. Written as a formula, (att*0.65)+(mag*0.65)

Which is uniquely different than (att+mag)/1.65 🙃

[hybrid sluice]

Nah they look the same to me

The vibes are the same

[fierce island]

(1000*0.65)+(1000*0.65) = 1,300
(1000+1000)/1.65 = 1,212

[tribal pond]

Math is too damn picky about its number placement man

[keen timber]

Honestly, let Beo keep it—but if anything this is all the more reason to make it less available to other classes.

Would we accept items that let Gilgs use Avidity? Or let Deities use Flasks? Same thing, in some sense. Let Beo be unique in this way.

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing

[loud yew]

Fair enough, I shall add a new "Dynamic Hybrid" paragraph 🫡

[viscid bloom]

Or Beo use summons?
Glances around nervously

[fierce island]

This isn't even about dynamic hybrid

[hybrid sluice]

Keep HM as is, change all other hybrid damage effects to be an m2 multiplier on hybrid skills only

[gaunt turtle]

Just call it "Not Hybrid" Hybrid

[fierce island]

This is just how Verse differs from The Hybrid amity

[tribal pond]

and triple it

[hybrid sluice]

But give it to the next class

[fierce island]

I guess I'm copy-pasting the whole damn Hybrid definition here so that we're clear lol

[gaunt turtle]

I kind of like this. SS has a higher m2 for gilga IIRC so there is precedent.

[loud yew]

Yee that too 💀

[zealous coral]

Makes sense with most of beos skills and spells being hybrid

[fierce island]

Orna has four definitions of Hybrid:

1. 'All skills and spells cast will use both your Attack and Magic stats'

• All skills and spells will use (Att+Mag)/1.66 instead of just Att or Mag
• This is roughly a 21% damage increase if your attack and magic are equal
• This has no effect at all on skills that are already hybrid, like Beaststrike or Verse
• This is not visible on the stats screen
• This also makes all attacks roll against an average of an enemy's defense and resistance. This is not normally relevant, but can be important if an enemy has certain buffs or during a Fomorian Houses event.

2. 'Hybrid damage will be increased by %', Selene Hands/Arms, Hybrid Monster

• Your attack will be increased by % of your magic, and your magic will be increased by % of your attack
• This stacks additively
• This effects all skills and spells, since it increases your raw stats and is visible on the stats screen.

3. Hybrid Skills

• Hybrid skills use 65% of your attack and 65% of your magic stat. Written as a formula, (att*0.65)+(mag*0.65)

4. 'Dynamic Hybrid' aka skills that use either attack or magic, whichever is higher.

• Sands of Aaru or God classes' Eventualus Apex skills are examples of this
• These skills follow the same def/res rules as the first type of hybrid. See above.

[hybrid sluice]

Wait, 1.66?

[fierce island]

It might be 1.66 or it might be 1.65

[hybrid sluice]

Schrodinger's Hybrid

Add it to the list

[fierce island]

The damage difference is so small that I couldn't get a reliable number due to Orna's normal 0.075% damage variance

[hybrid sluice]

I'd maybe vote for #2 to be turned into an M2 multiplier of #3 (besides beoH HM), and remove the -pet act malus from selene hands?

But that's a bigger chance to the game of course

Do #3 skills hit against average of def/res as well?

[torn trench]

what is an hybrid?

[fierce island]

Yes

[uncut rampart]

Pretty sure it's an ancient Babylonian word meaning "SS does more damage"

[hybrid sluice]

Ah yes I know what this screenshot means

(I believe you)

[fierce island]

0 means yes

Wintara have low resistance and infinite defense

[torn trench]

ahh ty for the translation, hate to bother but could you also tell me where to find wood?

[fierce island]

Low averaged with infinite equals infinite

[tribal pond]

In the woods brother

[fierce island]

This and rarely in PvP are the only times the averaging matters at all

[hybrid sluice]

But when you divide by 0 you get half infinity

How infinite

https://tenor.com/view/not-sure-gif-4692361

[tribal pond]

We gotta make the candles taller

[hybrid sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/birthday-cake-happy-birthday-birthday-cat-gif-11518408082901527602

Here is SS

[desert scaffold]

a wish, while waiting for that proof of melancholy to drop

scanning the list of drops for "proof of" makes my eyes tired af

yea yeah boomer problems

[hybrid sluice]

#1369690605835387040 message

You are not alone

[proper dagger]

I tired, lets see what odie is making

[desert scaffold]

Also, end of dungeon should say "dungeon complete" eevn if i found ornates, imo this is a bug

[viscid bloom]

Tru

Eventually dungeon complete at the top most top and under it if you found ornates/anguished gear

[keen timber]

Oh baby don’t hurt me, don’t hurt me, no more

[keen timber]

If the hotel has countably infinite rooms, but they’re all full, can I get a room?

[edgy minnow]

if each guest is willing to move to next room - yes 🗿

[desert scaffold]

i love that I can slot all adorns as soon as anguished gear drops

and I dont think T8 bosses drop melancholy proofs

[viscid bloom]

Uhhh... It will be an entry fee of 400$... Then 50$ for every minute spent in the hotel... And a very small service fee of 2000$ when you check out

[viscid bloom]

Interesting....

[edgy minnow]

isnt "only on tier bosses drop proofs" rule remains the same?

[desert scaffold]

i went over to melancholy thread for it

we'll see. thats my mirror's tier (8)

also the best tier

[edgy minnow]

average Orna: Classic enjoyer

[keen timber]

t6 best tier

(You can't) Change my mind

[hybrid sluice]

T5 best tier

[tribal pond]

T12 technically best I think

[desert scaffold]

u wot?

[serene bluff]

A Morrigan is T12

or is it 13? I always forget

[hybrid sluice]

This is sexy

[fierce island]

I like that "berserk chance" is a malus for the world farming path.

Like, yes, more zerks is literally something I want 😄

[hybrid sluice]

Time to add berserk chance to raid path

[serene bluff]

See Raid Enraging

[torn trench]

Berserk raids are actually a thing tho

[serene bluff]

I would bet a 100% enraged raid on turn one would be harder than 3x stats

[torn trench]

idk why I dug for so long but I finally dredged this up

make berserk raids an anguish mechanic too easy 😏

[upper meadow]

beoh 97 al with 25ang equipment

I think 2.0 will better for deity

[loud yew]

Fully added 💪
(at least I think that's everything 😅 )

[neat glacier]

The best as always in the beo sheet

[upper meadow]

Since beo nerf on their Towerfall damage, lacuna + towerfall only do 3m dmg on raids.

Ultima still able to works with critical dmg, maybe deity will have more better performance on raids too

[modern saffron]

important: we need a code for hocs in beta, not everyone had some when he got mirrored

I mean I do so I am asking for other people

[upper meadow]

Or just make hoc exchange with towershard cost = 1

[vital path]

I believe the items in the runeshop are free

Skins, all kinds of packs...

You should probably be able to buy the HoC from there

[modern saffron]

Ah ok didn't try

[upper meadow]

It really free from the shop, i just try it

[desert scaffold]

..theres a beo sheet?

[loud yew]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1329576020247974009

(link to sheet in the thread pins)

[neat glacier]

I created one 😋

The one sirith sent

[desert scaffold]

does this mean I do less dmg or They do less dmg?

[fierce island]

I think it means spells that cause self damage deal less damage to you? That's just a guess

That's a new bonus, I haven't seen it before and nothing else uses that wording

[hybrid sluice]

It's the Efficacious bonus

[fierce island]

Huh

What weird wording

[desert scaffold]

good call! that sounds right

this is epic, cant wait to hit 5999999

[fierce island]

"Multi-turn damage reduction" would be more appropriate

[desert scaffold]

999

.. 9

more 9s

[hybrid sluice]

"Multi-Casting Vulnerability Increase: -40%"

That seems clear enough

[desert scaffold]

"channeling" damage reduction

"spell casting" feels like a bad translation

but idk

the end of my T8/T9 anguish journey

these mobs are very killable still

so maybe thats good, itll inform players not on discord what's coming in t10 a little better

are everyone's path maluses the same?

or is there gonna be some seed winner who gets easy +% anguish gear for their raid path?

[upper wren]

Why was perm effect fade added? Is it supposed to fix some cheese or is it just for difficulty

[fierce island]

Yes

[desert scaffold]

easy, because odie's actually a chaos time vampire

[upper wren]

TwT

[desert scaffold]

((actually i like it so shrug))

[keen timber]

Ugh. I didn’t get any beta-ing done today. I was away from my OT at the time I downloaded it, then dealing with an irl crisis for the last 3-4 hours.

Tomorrow

[reef quiver]

Question do we know when the update will happen?

[viscid bloom]

That's the neat part

We don't

Only time will tell

[reef quiver]

I'm farming anguish for scrolls 😂😂😂

Hoping to get at least 5

Will all guild lvls reset (hopefully not)

[reef quiver]

2 turns wide up Dude that's no different then using armour

[modern saffron]

i still see what i hope is a visual bug (but i have no idea if intended or not), anguish 1-4 are supposed to be without shackles, but once you unlock anguish 5, if you don't toggle shackles on, then 1-4 anguish have lowered rewards. Also exp / orn is at 75% reduction while proofs and anguished gear is a t95% reduction, again not sure if intended or not

[neat glacier]

When it goes to live yes

If you mean ang 2.0

[fierce island]

No

Just Anguish, not all guild levels

[neat glacier]

Yeah i said ang 2.0 for that 😅

[reef quiver]

Good

[serene bluff]

We don't know, but it will be a lot closer if they do a live beta - not sure that will be feasible though for such a large change

[reef quiver]

@serene bluff wait we have the beta now don't we?

[serene bluff]

It's an open beta vs live

Meaning that it's on a different server vs live beta being on same server as actual

Sometimes they do a live beta too vs an open beta

[fierce island]

Any major balance/mechanical change can't have a live beta

[serene bluff]

Shouldn't but has happened in the past

[fierce island]

Not since the great themed dungeon fiasco 😆

[serene bluff]

Haha don't read my mind 😄

[fierce island]

That's what killed lived betas for like three years - now Odie basically just does them with UI changes

[serene bluff]

Fair, I guess I am still spiteful from that themed dungeon live beta, and should rewire myself

[fierce island]

We might get one for some of the client changes like the increased zoom limit, idk though

[hybrid sluice]

Conq was live beta

[junior matrix]

conq was okay as there wen't any widespread balance things

[echo night]

The anguish 1.0 was a live beta too no? Correct me if I'm wrong

[tribal pond]

zoom out please come to live soon

[serene bluff]

Isn't the zoom out just the same as changing your dpi?

[dense elk]

No, because changing DPI affects more than just the Map Display

[spring ice]

ios can't change their DPI either can they?

(Unless jail broken?)

[dense elk]

There is that too, yes

[zealous coral]

Thats honestly an easy fix

🚮

[serene bluff]

I mean this game is literally why I have an android device

[zealous coral]

I bought a new cellphone not because i needed one, but because my old one couldnt handle orna very well 🫠

[tribal pond]

i bought a pixel for the exact purpose of changing DPi for Orna

[serene bluff]

Z Folds are awesome for Orna - you can play 3 at once

[desert scaffold]

hey got a question about anguish gear,

if you have anguish lvl 4 gear, and are playing on anguish lvl 1, does it get the full anguish stat boost?

[fierce island]

No

It gets a reduced boost that level 1 gear would have

[neat glacier]

Yes plsss

[desert scaffold]

actually is it broken? ive got an anguish helmet that gives +235 hp, and my hp doesnt change in fight, on status, or with different lvls of anguish

ill put a bug report

[edgy minnow]

let's gooooo 1 turn channelalus
#patch-notes message

what was the trade? crit damage? redline? 3/5 GSH summons?

[cunning pulsar]

No more ss

Probably a bug

or maybe not

[hallow dune]

Same with CS, like it's substationally low. Ooooor not a bug lol

[edgy minnow]

after al 30 each new level reduces spiked shield damage 🗿

[worthy sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/palpatine-good-gewd-star-wars-episode-3-gif-15386400457909814305

[gusty basalt]

I was trying to find a thread on this. But is there economy concerns with anguish gear vs existing gear. I have a ton of raid matts invested in my gear, and anguished gear seems to surpass this investment and demand more. Has this system been talked about somewhere?

[keen timber]

Yes, I have seen it discussed, though I don’t remember precisely where. (It was not a conversation I felt I had anything to contribute, so I didn’t.)

I know this is probably less than helpful as a response, lol. But I can confirm the discussion you’re looking for exists. (IIRC the gist was something like “Requiring more mats is a deliberate design choice, to prolong the grind,” but that some people weren’t happy with that? IDR, I only skimmed it.)

[gusty basalt]

Hmm. I might make a thread and talk about it once I get my beta mirror

[upper meadow]

I had suggest they just make ang equipment upgrade as godforged system

Too many upvote last time when i suggest here

[torn trench]

#1369690605835387040 message

a bit above and below this are relavent discussions aswell as chicks recommendation with 12 positive reactions. seems there is a substantial group of people unhappy with the gearing economy being offered but as of now there hasnt been any real alterations or dicussion on if would be altered

*substantial group being the fact a random post got 12 reactions is quite the statement for the pop of the thread

[serene bluff]

So, we have been told that economic stuff will be discussed later. I don't know when.

They chagned Demon Forge tools from going back down to T10 thankfully though

er Level 10

I still have significant concerns for material gains regarding a 1:4 ratio to have the proofs I need and the material that I am blocked on. On top of the current chances already. That's already hard to figure out the odds on since every day can have a random amount of material available.

I know some of this can be adjusted post-release when more data is given, so I am patient, even if apprehensive.

[gusty basalt]

Thanks Higs.

[serene bluff]

Also I am not sure I mentioned it but some Anguish EoD rewards on top of regular EoD would be really great idea

[viscid bloom]

I have one big question... Because when I killed an anguished raid it didn't give me proofs of felling... Are they getting lostm

[hybrid sluice]

The materials sink is intentional and intense. The anguish guild is not intended to be a short term grind or a reward-driven grind, apparently

[proper dagger]

#1369690605835387040 message

I was already talking about it, but looking like some people really love to grind everything a second time...

Anguish resets every few lvl (idk, 5/10/15) your whole gear if you put it beyond lvl 10, stick at lvl 10 gear or farm every ornate a few anguish lvl again

Give a farmable object which puts gf gear on lvl 14 or lvl anguish (its getting no changed stats) but getting a chance per stat to get anguish stat of current level.

Farming all stats to anguish is slow enough, and once increased ang lvl,.chanche to get new (not anguished stat) to become one or lvl existing up

[serene bluff]

Anguish gear in earlier beta was 25 levels to fully reset and need upgrade

[hushed berry]

Hey uh, have you been able to replicate this since the "rebuffing" of anguish?

I'm curious because I just tried a summoner at 33 and it went... yeesh.
it went yeesh.

[serene bluff]

What was your total maluses etc

[hushed berry]

Doesn't super matter but here you go

[hybrid void]

do you mind recording a bit? I just wat to see how it is as a fellow GS that's still waiting for their mirror

[hushed berry]

I did. It's uploading

Blessed be the random 1 week of nitro

Otherwise I wouldn't be able to upload this half a gigabyte of video

[hybrid void]

oh dear

[loud yew]

Not with swansong as two-handed malus/fade chance malus is no where near as avoidable as it was, I need to actually take the time and go through the choices again and re-make a build

[hushed berry]

Fair enough. Then I suppose comparing my woes to your success yesterday isn't as straight forward

ah there we go

[serene bluff]

Oof 4:44 and defeat

That definitely seems rough

[hushed berry]

Yeah. it was.
And there's not much else I can do to optimise this

Technically I could grab a phaethon or cerunnos to buff the dragons. I probably should do that.

[hybrid void]

why not cele axe btw?

[hushed berry]

Summon stats, trying to squeeze as many as I can. The ward would probably have been better though, you're right.

[serene bluff]

I still stand firm on my statement that difficulty and challenge don't mean just increasing the time to do something, and that seems almost like double/triple the time to still fail at the end.

[hybrid void]

how else would you achieve difficulty in this game? Just curious

maybe not the increased time spent but an incrased chance of failing should be a side effect of higher difficulty

[serene bluff]

I actually ranted on this earlier; Difficulty has a lot of ways to be done - let me see if I can find it again

[uncut rampart]

Right now, most dungeons end without enemies getting a single turn. Also very curious how difficulty can be added in a way other than enemies getting turns (and thus also slowing things down by a lot).

Unless you mean that it's okay when a single dungeon/raid takes 3x as long and gives 3x rewards.

[serene bluff]

Ok, so first the problem with increasing time, and then some alternatives:
Increasing the time it takes to complete fights creates several issues:

Double RNG Punishment: Players already face randomness in obtaining gear; making them endure longer fights adds a second layer of frustration

Artificial Challenge: Longer fights don't test skill - they test patience

Player Respect: Your most dedicated players value their time; making them spend more of it on the same content shows disrespect

Accessibility Concerns: Physical limitations (hand fatigue, attention spans) can make extended fights exclusionary

This is if rewards stayed at the same return - just adding time

[fierce island]

I agree overall, though longer fights do have the potential for adding difficulty due to resource management (mana/HP/ward)

For sure the rewards need to justify the time

[serene bluff]

Things that can make a game harder without adding more time:
I will condense this so not to spam.
Pattern Recognition from the AI
Resource management of some type
Vulnerability windows
Counter systems
Environmental Interactions that have to be paid attention to
Optional Challenges
Escalation mechanics
Sacrifice Systems

We have had some of these through quest like Beastfelled where we can't use weapons etc - could add those challenges to dungeons and the like making it harder without adding time

[hushed berry]

I can't imagine not wearing a weapon wouldn't add time tbh

[serene bluff]

If the fight takes 3X as long and I get 3X the rewards then it for sure balances out

You have to swap to a Pet class to make it not take longer

[hushed berry]

That's not difficulty then, that's just a class swap

[serene bluff]

If you have anguish and you don't have your 100 AL it is difficulty

[hallow dune]

Hordes are starting to get dicey now around ang36-37. Being careful more runs take 5mins or so. Not sure if the rewards are worth an extra couple percent on proofs but more or less the Ang but horde weapons are usually easy to demon forge

[serene bluff]

Not all of those suggestions work well in Orna either, they are just examples of things that don't add time for just adding time's sake

[gray solar]

The argument that longer fights dont add skill only exist if you haven't tested super high anguish fights

[dense elk]

I get how this sounds coming from me of all people, and I don't mean to be that guy, but I do believe that Patience is a skill to a certain degree

[serene bluff]

I mean you are literally that guy though 😄

And I appreciate that

[gray solar]

There are a lot of fights in towers that even at ang 20 will kick your teeth in if you aren't paying attention/strategizing

[hallow dune]

They definitely take more skill and build tinkering and really focusing on what to kill first because of statuses and such now

[serene bluff]

They can kick your teeth in without taking 2 minutes per fight though is what I am saying

[gray solar]

No?

Its a turn based RPG

[hushed berry]

I think that fundamentally, it is very hard to add difficulty to orna right now.
It's nigh impossible to kill a player other than by oneshotting. Due to augments amities and pets, we can easily regenerate nearly half our ward in a turn.
It's night impossible to debuff a player, with infinite access to panaceas, the debuffs come off as soon as they get on.

So what do you do? Do you just oneshot the player? That's not exactly a fun mechanic. People dislike that

We need to play a war of attrition then. Have maluses that lower regeneration and healing. Have the player slowly bleed to death. But then the monsters also need to not get oneshot. They need health and defenses, otherwise they can't bleed a player dry.

There is difficulty and resource management to be had there. Balancing Health, Mana, Ward, and keeping enemies in check with Stuns and Sleeps. But it's not an easy thing to make. Very hard balance to strike.

[serene bluff]

2 minutes per fight makes something that can be 20 minutes be 100 minutes

[gray solar]

The only way to accomplish losing and maintaining the current time commitment is to just have them hit for a bazillion damage

Current orna is everything dies in 1 turn and dungeons take 60 seconds.

That just can't be the status quo for new anguish if we want any mechanics at all

[uncut rampart]

yeah idk, I find the argument of "adding time for no reason" to be pretty hollow.

Enemies taking actions isn't offensive to me, and the point of the game isn't just that I maximize my enemy kills per time. Like if I have to pick "which is a better game" between enemies taking turns and getting slightly faster item drops, I'm going with the former instead of the latter.

And "1shot or be 1shot" is certainly what difficulty turns into if the game is not allowed to be slowed at all.

[serene bluff]

There are options like I said, vulnerability windows, etc

Changes in environment

I am not saying it has to be 1 turn fights

[proper dagger]

Thats true, but we are now in a state where the highest def/res is also worth not really much at the moment

[serene bluff]

The question was asked about what other options there are, I gave a whole bunch

[hushed berry]

Those are battle modifiers that straight up are not orna mechanics. The closest thing we've had to that were the Houses of Fomoria event.
Which, despite having loved it, was a despised event

[gray solar]

If a full player and enemy turn takes 5 seconds
And every floor of a dungeon takes 3 turns
Dungeons now take a minimum of 2.5 minutes

Which is apparently too long?

[serene bluff]

Since I am not NF I can't give exacts on how to work those mechanics

[uncut rampart]

certainly not going to turn my nose up at requiring players to pay attention to the screen (to select targeted enemies, to use different skills).
OG Fomoria was some of the best Orna gameplay in a while (and was much slower, but was delightful)

[hushed berry]

And people don't exactly love Yggdrasil or Cerus.

[serene bluff]

I loved House of Fomoria with all four houses as well

You really had to party and build out a plan and communicate

and at first it was harder/longer

[simple mulch]

oh man, original Fomoria event was easily the best event we've ever had

[serene bluff]

but when you had a great team it became fast again

[edgy minnow]

I know its not about anguish really, but in a GPS game, optimizing for time is kinda better, since it means you can spend less time standing still / cover more dungeons / enemies while going to location, also can't give more attention while "on the go"

I like 2 minute dungeons since it means I can get more of them between buss stops / metro stations or while walking, since rewards are ultra small when it comes to MF/DF'ing gear and AL

[uncut rampart]

imo that would be an argument for shrinking the number of floors in a dungeon.

I know I mentioned the time requirement for (original) towers as being too long. It was awkward sitting around in a WalMart parking lot taking 30+ minutes to walk through a 50-floor tower 😛

[serene bluff]

I have had the cops called on me before in Colorado for this game

[torn trench]

OG Towers were more like an hour+ 😩 The awkward encounters I had back then

[edgy minnow]

I dont mind LONG dungeons, but that would mean that all of them would be played back at home from the queue, and max I can get is 6 in 1 walk

[serene bluff]

Getting a tap on your window when you are out at 10:00 pm doing dungeons was a really awkward conversation

[torn trench]

I had to riftbreak in a cemetary in the middle of the night, no cops called tho lol

[serene bluff]

Thankfully, I was on a public street a cemetary would be trespass lol

[tribal pond]

please, or a continious dungeon option where all the rewards come at the end upon completion

but that's out of the scope of this

[torn trench]

I have absolutely trespassed while playing this game :)

small price to pay

[edgy minnow]

why not go into cemetery, theres free loot 🗿
(joking of course )

[serene bluff]

I used to rob cemeteries (In Ultima Online)

[edgy minnow]

imagine the amount of "my game crashed and all my loot disappeared" messages in discord

[serene bluff]

Allow a continue like there is now and that would go away

But yeah def off topic lol

[hushed berry]

I'm sorry but did you just reinvent Endless?

[serene bluff]

It's been mentioned before a lot

There was that or rewards at x number of floors etc

Horde Endless

Boss Endless

[edgy minnow]

no like game would have to write protected dungeon cache data to phone memory like a maniac to save all drops, if its per floor, people would start to abuse rerolling and also there would be attempts at editing such cache - all in all - pain

[serene bluff]

Horde Boss Endless

[worn pawn]

boss endless sounds like infinite orns

[hushed berry]

Horde Boss Endless would actually make me cry

[tribal pond]

Horde Hard Boss Endless when

[worn pawn]

dont forget anguish!

[edgy minnow]

endless but without "clean your inventory to make your floor changes faster"

[dense elk]

mmm, Horde Boss Endless sounds like fun

[uncut rampart]

I think we're all in agreement that content should have pretty tight time limits/upper bounds (because it's 'on the go'). That can mean the player completing the content or the player dying -- to be clear.

Right now, a lot of players have an expectation that a 25-floor dungeon can be cleared in like 25-30 total player turns (a few buffs then a whole bunch of oneshots, even in horde) with zero player deaths. As a result, enemies take no actions and always die. This isn't... great. It makes gameplay very thin and enemies identical. If it's unacceptable for a single dungeon to take longer, then they need to be less floors/fewer fights. 🤷‍♂️

For raids, the topic of "how much overall time should the average player put in per event/month" has been floating around. Something in the tens of hours seems about right, which in turn becomes something like a few minutes per-each "obtain scroll" and "kill summoned raid". Possibly increasing the raid duration (from 30s to 2minutes, 4x slower?) and raid rewards simultaneously is the right call.

[keen timber]

<-- still takes hours to fully clear a 50f tower

[hushed berry]

2 minutes raiding still sounds depressingly fast. but I'm likely the minority with that opinions

[uncut rampart]

clearly enemies need to be yeeting you out earlier 🙏

[uncut rampart]

I agree, personally.

[edgy minnow]

2 minutes when you need to kill thousands seems about right...khm khm, ofsc..khm khm...

[hushed berry]

It's supposed to be an epic fight with a giant overpowered monstrosity that requires the combined efforts of many heroes over multiple attempts to tackle!
That's how it was from tier 5 to 9.

[tribal pond]

Gone are the days of long raids and big time investments

[keen timber]

Nah, I don't die (much). I just take forever to kill things.

Which...is better than the inverse, I suppose.

[serene bluff]

The point is 2 minute raiding isn't really 2 minutes and you are done, that's where the grind comes in for needing roughly 2,000 raids

[tribal pond]

The instant gratification, loot pinata also has a lot to do with this

[serene bluff]

if you made it 20 minute raiding and needing 200 raids I would be ok with that

[hushed berry]

Even if that age is long gone, the best time I've had raiding was in the earlier iteration of anguish (the one that was brutally difficult), where it took Me Konq and Yoshi a combined 15 or so minutes to kill down the beast

[tribal pond]

It feels not good to spend an hour or two playing a mobile game and not having anything to show from it

[serene bluff]

Try 9+ hours or 24 hours over a year period

[edgy minnow]

thats what otherrealms raids felt like in early T9/10 - spend hours trying to kill those big things for thousands of mats and lots of gear, I didnt mind spending 6 hours straight trying to deal that damage, because rewards were worth time investment, nowadays, spending an hour for a raid that drops like 10 common items, feels like...meh

[tribal pond]

But this is only my opinion, other people have different ideas

[hushed berry]

Other realms are a 15 minute adventure now lol

[serene bluff]

For some, others still struggle, I would think the majority is in that struggle range

but again that's data that NF would have

[tribal pond]

Endless I think has the most "time invested : rewards earned" feeling to me, on a scale of time/rewards

[worn pawn]

yeah, not all players are t11 AL50+

[edgy minnow]

ye...time was increased from 24 hours to 72, but dealing that damage became much MUCH easier

[hushed berry]

Oh yeah I'm aware.

[edgy minnow]

I'm al 26 and it takes me like 20-30 minutes of just pressing ultima over and over again

[serene bluff]

I am all for longer with equal rewards for time btw - longer can be harder - but longer isn't the only way to make harder was my point earlier

[worn pawn]

thats another problem of wanting raids to be longer imo

[hushed berry]

Longer doesn't equal harder, sure

[worn pawn]

its still just pressing ultima over and over again

[hushed berry]

But harder does usually equal longer.

[tribal pond]

In most cases, yes

[hushed berry]

If it's not taking longer, it hasn't gotten harder lol

[tribal pond]

or we've become stronger

[edgy minnow]

imagine the pain of economic rebalance for odie, if you need to make it 100 dungeons -> 5 dungeons while keeping same progression rate

[hushed berry]

If you've become stronger, the game has gotten easier

[serene bluff]

To start, I hate to use other games as an example, but when raids first come out in other games, there is a learning curve. Once you learn it and power up, it becomes faster.

[worn pawn]

with every increase in difficulty, we've gotten new passives, new event gears, buffs to old ones...

[serene bluff]

There is usually different strategy to each fight, placement, skills needed, group makeup etc

[worn pawn]

and even with ang 2.0 we'll now be getting anguished gear

[hushed berry]

True, except for the part where we got an increase in difficulty

[worn pawn]

i meant ang 2.0 which were getting now

[edgy minnow]

if I need to kill a 1000 jorms to get 1 item, yeah, no, I'm gonna bash against a wall and press 1 skill

[serene bluff]

So you can do Anguish 50 now in the 2.0 with the same level of ease as 1.0?

[worn pawn]

maybe increase in difficulty wasn't the right word? new challenges will be more accurate

[serene bluff]

There has definitely been an increase in difficulty

Not as harsh as a week ago of course

[hushed berry]

Nepsus was giving an example of new passives, new event gear, and a buff to old event gear
None of that is happening with anguish 2.0 - meaning they were referring to previous updates
To which I pointed out, previous updates did not introduce difficulty

New challenges is more accurate - Towers, per example

[serene bluff]

Sorry, I get that I was staying on topic for 3.17 beta - didn't follow that.

Mobile and desktop woes

back on desktop now 😄

[hybrid sluice]

Sinply add quick-time events to dungeons that must be completed or you take damage

Still fast dungeons, but harder

[edgy minnow]

"you are moving too fast" ahh button in dungeons

[hushed berry]

Also, killing 1000 jormies to get 1 item is a possibility, though not very statistically likely. That being said, increasing raid drops was a discussed/polled suggestion.

[hybrid sluice]

Some floors are replaced with memory hunt minigames

[worn pawn]

i myself have murdered 600 jorms for a hat

nearly got crucified by my kingdommates for mass surtercide

[edgy minnow]

spending couple tries, developing strategy and dealing beeg damage to raids while receiving meaningful rewards for time spent would make raids feel like RAIDS and not glorified bosses

problem is, reward ↑ for time ↑ would technically change nothing in game, kill 1 raid instead of 10 for 10x rewards, a lot of people would complain

[hushed berry]

Killing 1 raid instead of 10 for 10x rewards, provided you took 10x as long to kill the raid wouldn't "change nothing" in the game - it'd make the game more like a game and less like a farming simulator.

That does also come with the issue of suddenly scrolls are 10x as reward dense

And likely need to be 10x harder to obtain.

[edgy minnow]

no like I meant a lot of people who used to killing raids en masse would see same rewards for illusive "more time" (if balanced right its the same) which means more unnecessary headache for Odie

[echo night]

In the context of super raids I think that's actually a pretty great bonus

[edgy minnow]

I liked the idea of "supercharged raids" with new anguish, beeg raid that needs a party but yields more rewards (which it currently doesnt, sadge)

[serene bluff]

Maybe anguish could scale cost? So a level 10 anguish would be 2 scrolls? Or something like that?

[edgy minnow]

craftable anguished versions of scrolls for proofs 👀

[serene bluff]

oh god not proofs please 😄

But maybe a mix of scrolls and proofs yeah

[hybrid sluice]

I don't feel like this is necessarily true as this is essentially part of the reward of increasing your Anguish

Well. It IS the reward

Anguished raids have bonuses, simple as that

More anguish, more rewards from the raids

[serene bluff]

Right now they are not really giving more rewards, just higher chances of a reward if I am not mistaken

[hybrid sluice]

Right, I think they should give more rewards

[serene bluff]

And not even ornate

just more of a chance in a group to get a higher base rarity

or anguished if an ornate drops

[hybrid sluice]

Increased time spent on a single raid should correlate to increased rewards, essentially multiplying the rewards a single scroll can yield

That's... just math

[uncut rampart]

non-anguished can also have less rewards. math 📈

though the rewards themselves are also not exactly equal. an anguished raid drops anguished items -- they're definitely only used in anguish itself, but they're "at least" as good as non-anguished drops plus they have some additional benefit.

[edgy minnow]

I wanted to say "upgradable", so scroll + proofs 😅

[serene bluff]

Anguishable is still only a percent chance, right, and only ornate? Although we found out today you can use demon tools on any gear to make it anguished - reported it as a bug incase it's a bug.

[edgy minnow]

I wish I could anguish my broken bog ._.

[serene bluff]

Dont we all... that would give us all master forged bogs 😄

well anguished ones but still

[loud yew]

I know raids should take longer than 3-10 seconds but it's just been so long since they have

[serene bluff]

10 seconds, man I am doing it wrong

I raided with someone who has 240 AL, and it was still 3-5 turns 😄 which is like 15-20 seconds.

[edgy minnow]

20 seconds for 5 turns means extremely slow internet / cluttered inventory (or just looooong distance)

[serene bluff]

Long distance with a lot of clutter on the ground in term of raids

[hushed berry]

Or Summoner

[torn trench]

10 vs 20 secs is the same difference for the argument being made. the argument being that raids are a total push over and it takes longer to run your menu dungeon as a T1 hard then it does to kill a raid.

[edgy minnow]

"and you get a turn, and you get a turn, everybody gets a turn"

[serene bluff]

It's volume though

if it takes 2000 raids

a doubling of time is huge

[hushed berry]

In the dungeon's defense, it is hard

I just feel like at some point things have gone wrong if we've reached the point that we're aiming for 2000 raids

[edgy minnow]

I tried to test "how long it takes for 1 turn" and accidentally killed a raid with 0 buffs and just realmstrikes spam in ~30-40 seconds

[hushed berry]

Like, 2000 raids is the realm of "I am fishing for a very specific high ornate item"

Whereas for the most part of the game, getting a legendary does the job just fine

[edgy minnow]

illusive ornate fsc

[hushed berry]

Or sometimes, you don't even get the item at all. It happens. You live with it, and you proceed

it's not a very prevalent mentality, I know

[neat glacier]

https://tenor.com/view/i-wont-stop-until-i-get-it-ciara-chyanne-morgan-making-the-cut-ill-persist-til-i-succeed-im-not-gonna-give-up-gif-26506136

[hushed berry]

I'd be more than fine doing 20 high-difficulty (15m) raids over the course of an event, which drop x4 (as an example) as many items, and making due with whatever I got out of it

[edgy minnow]

I mean, unless you fish, do anguish/monuments like a mad man, you don't get THAT much scrolls in the first place, and getting nothing for 50 killed raids while listening to "yeah I liked 500, yeah I'm at 600" in discord is kinda painful

[hushed berry]

If we go by fux's "tens of hours per event" estimate, and guesstimate 20 hours, that'd be 80 high-difficulty raids for 360 drops.
That is much more than reasonable, imho.

[polar cloak]

To be fair I see everything as a grind simulator as a endgame player, everything is grinding taking AL into account, alongside item target farming for specific builds

[hushed berry]

Out of curiosity - do you happen to be a HoA player?

[serene bluff]

I am already 20 hours into current event

[polar cloak]

I play HOA and orna lol

[serene bluff]

Me? I have 5 years in Orna and about a year in actual playtime in HoA

[polar cloak]

With alts 😭💀

[hushed berry]

Just curious because seeing the game as a farm/grind simulator is a very HoA-centric mentality

Not to say it doesn't exist in orna, ofc

[edgy minnow]

*more like 1 famed and 359 mats that you need 10 000 of in modern orna economy

[hushed berry]

And yeah I know about you Tyrm :p
I'm just not too familiar with Rice over here

[serene bluff]

Sorry I am in and out of convos

[polar cloak]

To be fair I also see pokemon go and monster hunter gps game both as farming/grind simulator at endgame for both of those, it tends to be what happens at endgame for most games honestly

[serene bluff]

Also, the only legendary I use is an FSC personally. Saying they work just fine isn't really true. I only max out at like 250k ward at 43 AL on Deity

People with lower AL walking around with 400K

[hushed berry]

Of course they're going to be weaker than other players wearing the same thing but at a higher quality lol

Though lets be real, legendary FSC vs ornate isn't making a 150k ward difference

[edgy minnow]

I'm using 169% legy and difference with 190% ornate is 7%, that 7% matters a lot

[hushed berry]

But it works for PvE content. You don't need to minmax to beat orna content

It makes a very minimal difference.

[serene bluff]

It's the optimization mentality

[hushed berry]

But we've been stuck at the latest of games for such a long time, that the minimal difference was the only thing we could aim for

[serene bluff]

and that is very much ingrained in this game

[hushed berry]

so I understand

But know it doesn't have to be that way.

[serene bluff]

Telling me something subpar works has a disconnect in my brain 😄

[hushed berry]

Let me tell you a horror story

[serene bluff]

even though I am using a standard Arisen Aaru helmt and chest in some content now

[hushed berry]

I don't check my ornates' qualities

[serene bluff]

i just gf it and don't look at the super low stats 😄

I do check every single ornates stats

[hushed berry]

I mean, I do when I get one. But I don't write it down.
And I won't compare it to any future ones.

And once I have one ornate that I wear, that's it - I'm not hunting for more

[serene bluff]

I will upgrade it 1 time and name it the percent

I forgot to rename this one but it's 199 too

[polar cloak]

Getting ornate is enough for me personally on some pieces, like I'm not crazy enough to grind for a 200% item it will happen when it does, if it does 🤣💀

[serene bluff]

I grind for 190+

[edgy minnow]

let's look at it from different perspective, if aiming for high quality drops doesn't matter, what's the point of hunting items in the first place, I have same problem with new anguished gear, the difference seems miniscule for the mat and time required

[serene bluff]

When anguish drops, to start I am going to use any piece of gear that I anguish just to try it out

eventually it will be back to min/maxing

Also I can accept I am in a minority, but I think its a decently sized one

like 25% at least

It's why I can't play Gacha games

[polar cloak]

Anguish 2.0 atm feels like more of a grind fest lol, might stay vanilla honestly but that's just my opinion

[serene bluff]

It does feel grindier to me as well but that's because I am used to party horde and getting 200+ proofs for 20 dungeons

and we are running 30-35

[hushed berry]

There isn't lol.
There's no point.

People hunt for new items because they're shiny and new, but they're for the most part not going to be changing their game plan.
FSC was a massive improvement to items like FYC, but like, we didn't really need them.
I'm not disproving that they're better, I'm saying they're not needed. Because the base game is not hard. And it's only gotten easier.

Now, with a new source of hard content (ang 2), getting better items is obviously still best. But now you have sizeable increases in item power again (plus some items scale better than others due to how ward doesn't scale).
But you don't need to get a high ornate anguish item to compete with your non anguish item. Any red will do. (Provided the items are even remotely comparable in base stats)

The main thing that doesn't translate well is the "use a legendary", since those can't drop as anguished items.

[serene bluff]

But you can DF them right now 😄

I hope that is a bug

Demontools I mean

[hushed berry]

It probably isn't, and it's probably fine to leave that as is

[serene bluff]

DT them not DF

[hushed berry]

Let the swashies have some fun lol

As long as DTing celestials gets patched

[serene bluff]

I mean they have great gear to do that already with Pumpkinless, X and Y

maybe some others

Well to be fair so far DT Celestials makes it poor quality but I am not sure on the scaling

If I can DT a standard item though that becomes my item to level up my anguish until I am comfortable, depending on the initial cost for Demon Tools of course

[hybrid sluice]

DT a non-MF item bypasses the entire mat grind

[modern saffron]

it was live beta for hoa not for orna iirc

[echo night]

Ahh interesting

[serene bluff]

No it has to be MF but any quality gear - not sure if a bug or not

If not a bug it could actually get really interesting because standard gear dropping anguished could actually out perform current ornate gear

Just would have to figure some way to scale some of the static stats like dex at least

That would also wholly take away the argument for having to re-aquire ornate anguish gear until you hit a spot you are comfortable grinding ornates again

[modern dragon]

If you're looking for a very slowed down version of orna then it seems like ang 2.0 will be perfect for you. I for one do find it offensive when enemies take turns and prefer to nuke them all the second they appear on my screen.

Hopefully this idea that everything needs to be long, difficult, and tedious does not infect every part of the game and I can still enjoy it as the chill but grindy time killer it's always been for me

[hallow dune]

Why even play a turn based RPG at all than? Why not go play tap titans 2 or cookie clicker if you wanna one tap and destroy? Rolling through ang38 and it's a challenge and have use a bit of brain but it's doable and fun. That's just solo. Partying can go way higher and it's a multiplayer game so why not?

Runs have maybe increased by 2 minutes for much harder content imo. Sweeping and clearing is still around the same speed at lower anguish and is just as viable

[eternal drum]

Id love for ang 2.0 to make party play worth it. My brother got me into orna and I would love to smash some 200m raids as a team

[hallow dune]

Same. Honestly if it wasn't as clunky/slow as it was I'd do it immensely more as I enjoy it a lot more. Love big raids and loot pinatas after with friends

Bring back the dopamine!

[rustic escarp]

Im not sure how much NF can do about the lag issues in party play, but fixing those + Ang 2.0 would absolutely revolutionize the game for me

[modern dragon]

"If it wasn't as clunky/slow as it was"

[fierce island]

If party play feels clunky/slow, make sure that everyone in your party has a clean inventory

[hallow dune]

Party play yes (latency etc), not the rest of the game

[fierce island]

It's pretty insane how much people with overfilled inventories slow down party play

[hallow dune]

I don't think inventory matters when I play in the US and buddies play in UK haha. Still some space when we play and inventories are clean

It helps for sure but

[fierce island]

You'd be shocked. I don't want to name and shame, but a French friend and I were playing with another kingdom mate (with a very full inventory) and when it was just the two of us it was near instant but the full inventory person added huge wait times.

(I'm in the US to be clear)

Like it blew me away what the difference was

[loud yew]

I find doing a good restart right before starting helps a lot too

[hallow dune]

Interesting

[fierce island]

Obviously inventory size isn't everything and the game also can get laggy/glitchy for other reasons too

And, uh, HoA is a whole other issue

[hallow dune]

Ang 60 with friends and ornate loot pinatas please

[desert scaffold]

paths of anguish are optional, so no worries there

also i think youre gonna like the agony one

and the despair

... ok i have a complaint, the names of these paths are a bummer

path of contentment
path of joy
..

[keen timber]

It's anguish lol

The names are appropriate

-# I live in Despair, and also I like world farming.

[loud yew]

Trying my best but really struggling with BeoA

[hybrid sluice]

Surely even fenrir would be better than cactus?

Or you could try selene I guess?

[gusty basalt]

is there a patch note channel? I can't find one and assume that it is user error

[junior matrix]

#patch-notes

[modern dragon]

Gear?

[loud yew]

I think there's a bug with follower stats not from anguish gear not applying (same as anguish effects)

Also why that X is there I have no clue

[modern dragon]

That would make sense. Are you at 100% ward protection or just yoloing it?

[loud yew]

I used DB floor 1 after stasising everything

[serene bluff]

What you didn't Demon tool your Offhand?

[desert scaffold]

we already have a "usable" filter

[loud yew]

So close to finishing a horde dungeon...

[brittle viper]

How do you have Anguished 50 gear???

Oh, the code, I couldn't use it

[polar cloak]

Kind of agree with this honestly, orna already feels pretty slow paced getting to the point of 1 tapping anything takes much time and effort especially solo players with no prior experience

I think ang 2.0 might appease some players? But overall it's killing a lot, with how things are right now, it's adding much more tedious grind, it would be different if we could use anguish gear unshackled alongside our AL so we could see our efforts/progression, but honestly without that it feels like anguish gear just barely keeps you at a threshold and it's not fun to invest into, but everything is subtle to change atm it's hard to say what the final result will be

[modern dragon]

I might dabble in it from time to time to challenge myself but I don't think it's content I will grind on a daily basis. I kinda hope it's a success with the people it's aimed at because all this debate about balance is exhausting and I'd love to see Odie get back to making new events and gear

[zenith matrix]

kind of hoping for
shackled on -> ALs and Anguished Gear stats goes down as its intended to be
unshackled -> no ALs / Anguished Gear stats penalized

[gentle grove]

I know its in patch notes, but does beta have follower ascension enabled? Try double checking live vs beta 🤔

[echo night]

From all the discussion I've seen anguish 2.0 definitely isn't for everyone. If in the future there's changes that make it more desirable for people who are looking for a way to grind faster that's great, but there's obviously a different thought process for the devs. Hard to say what the final outcome will look like considering we've had so many patches in the week or so that anguish 2.0's beta been out but I'll at the very least try to have some fun with it

[junior matrix]

Anguish is really a guild about rewarding those who are interested in overcoming challenges - something that both the current Anguish iteration and general endgame are lacking in. This is why the current Anguish guild failed imo

I don’t see it ever being a fast/efficient grind. There’s plenty of that elsewhere in the game

Additionally, it’s a great counterbalance to Ascension for those that want more reason to ascend

[keen timber]

^ This is precisely what I like about Anguish. I like it when world mobs give me a run for my money while I’m world farming.

Am I weird? Maybe. (Well, definitely. But maybe in this way too.)

But that unironically sounds great

[junior matrix]

I don’t think that’s weird. I don’t play games that don’t challenge me, personally

[echo night]

Anguish has been a source of great fun especially in party play, watching your teammates either get picked off like flies or start to recover after an especially dangerous zerk enemy will never get tiring for me personally

[junior matrix]

Anguish 2.0 party play is so good

[echo night]

I'm sure the zerk fallen bosses agree

[eternal drum]

Ugh guess that means I need to clean my inventory 😂

[modern dragon]

Personally ascension shackles make me not want to grind als for this content. There are other things I'll grind als for but 2.0 won't ever be one of them while shackles exist

[junior matrix]

Shackles help keep the difficulty and spirit of the guild, and of difficulty isn’t your thing, that’s okay 🙂

[modern dragon]

I'm just pointing out it's not actually a good motivation for ascension when all it does is unlocks the next level of difficulty. I just want you to understand that

[gray solar]

Its the only reason I'll ever put points into ascensions again

Once I hit whatever the shackles limit is for my current max, ascensions will stop existing all together

[gentle grove]

Odie, you mentioned that you don't ever see it (Anguish, I presume?) as being a fast/efficient grind, and that there are plenty of that (fast and efficient grind?) elsewhere in the game.. I'm just curious, could you cite some examples?

I just feel like different people have different definitions of "fun" and "challenging"

[gray solar]

Full tower clears (50 floors, all guardians past floor 20) take endgame players <12 minutes. Thats both fast and very efficient

[modern dragon]

Then eventually you'll hit a point where you'll never ascend again. Pretty sure I'm already past that point

[zenith matrix]

i understand that ang 2.0 will not be a fast grind, but i disagree if it needs to be an "inefficient grind"

[gentle grove]

Anguish 0 right?

Hmm well anguish increases tower shards, and more tower shards means more resources to spend on mats for ascension so you can do anguished towers faster (and the loop begins) but then it's an AL sink which fine, could be hyper inflated. But that's not as bad as refineries, which granted, is being limited to 10 (but still)

So basically slow down ascensions and spend time engaging in the game huh?

[gray solar]

Yeah, and im looking forward to it

I hate the ascension system, and the sooner I can disengage from it the better 🤷‍♂️

Time will tell if ascensions slow down or not. The reward loop is still very much a work in progress, and we might find ascensions accelerate again

[upper wren]

Was it ever annouced that the there would be 100dungeons at the balor memory teleport

[gray solar]

If history is any indicator, major game updates always speed up ascension progression

[gentle grove]

I mean, doesn't ascension just make things more efficient? You get more stats so you hit harder, tank more, and since efficient means maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort/expense, you get to do more things in less time = being faster

[desert scaffold]

"efficient" or "pointless"?

why bother farming gear, if you have 100 ascensions, you can probably go around swashing everything with no weapon

"raids" become boss fights

ornate raid loot becomes an assumption, because you can kill 400 in a month

[gentle grove]

well gear helps you get to 100 ascensions faster than without, and if you spent that much time and effort then imo you should see some progress/change/improvement in your performance no?

"Raids" by definition are quick attacks, unless you meant "seige" where it takes days to conquer something

[desert scaffold]

solo raids suck

i stopped ascending at 19

thats my POV

[gentle grove]

and you're welcome to it, and so are those that spend time and effort to grind out 100s of als

[proper dagger]

What was the purpose to bring such weaks raids into a such powercreep world that they were "boss" fights is the first question

[desert scaffold]

i dont need to progress anywhere anymore, and i still take territory (and get it taken back from, which imo is fun)

well idk titan took a full few days to kill with everyone in the kingdom attacking it when jt came out

[proper dagger]

Zeus and the 3 arisen titans?

Arisen riftrougue was bit harder, but not tue to the raid itself, more to the summons around him

[gentle grove]

But I think giving multiple options to players is a great move 👍 promotes build diversity, creative thinking, and dedication to builds.

AL shackling kinda feels bad when your "excess" als don't matter anymore, depending on the Anguish level (especially when you ascended for the purpose of being able to do content more efficiently) but... Hehe it's funny.

Al shackles is a challenge cause you lose out on ALs
Unshackled als is also a challenge cause despite the ease due to ALs, you basically gain insignificant rewards, which requires you to do more to get the same as before 🤔 either way a challenge indeed

[upper meadow]

I remember Ang25 = Old Ang50 right.

Just watch the reward bonus compare.

Any logic inside？With extra negative battle modifiers.

And more higher al, the reward will getting more lower.

[proper dagger]

Stat wise not, but with the maluses i think yeah

[modern saffron]

what are the intended numbers /dynamics for anguished raids? is proof of felling intended to be removed and substituted with agony in anguished raid like it currently is on beta? are non t10 raids intended to drop proofs? how many proofs per kill are intended (we currently get 10 all the times it seems)? is anguish xp not intended to come from raids (i guess that's a bug?)? if xp is expected, how much?

[valid raven]

I want to see an anguished ymir brilliant feathers

And swansong

And trevelyan's archistaff and an eastern regalia

If someone could satisfy my curiosity, it would be much appreciated

[modern saffron]

it's just 3% more att-mag-hp-mana per anguish level, + a random passive from the list (if you dropped it, currently not if you use tools to anguish the item)

[valid raven]

Will demon worked ones get passives as well in the future?

[hallow dune]

Supposedly

[edgy minnow]

not even anguish saves trev staff lack of mag

[fierce island]

#DeleteThe2HWeaponPowerMalus

[tribal pond]

#tripleThe2hMalus

[viscid bloom]

#QuadrupleThe2hMalus

[vital path]

It’s the T6 one, though

I mean, not that the T9 one has a lot more mag, but yeah

[hushed berry]

Well it's dodgeable now

So at least that's that

[fierce island]

But there's no 1H weapon malus

Despite 2H weapons often being riskier and less defensive (which is a negative in Anguish anyway), they are the type of weapon hurt by maluses. So why use the riskier option that forces you to take bad other options, when taking the 2h maluses but using a 1h weapon is a win/win situaiton?

[hushed berry]

Because AoE goes brr?

I agree with you fwiw

[proper dagger]

Not so good aeo dmg than 2h skills?

[loud yew]

There comes a point (I think ~ang11? Not 100% with all the changes) where you have to pick between 2H maluse and Permeant Stat fall off, and imo the stat fall off is a big nono and makes Ang Hordes next to impossible

[hushed berry]

Ah, I see

As a summoner, it's hard to notice when that happens

Part of me wonders if you could take the permanent stat falloff in party play, and have your party mates buff you up instead

But party mates can't cast zerks on you

[loud yew]

And you quite often have picks between 2H malus and Crit malus which both kill 90% of 2H weapons, especially -Crit with it being back to multiplying making even -10 crit Dmg a massive decrease (which is why I was advocating for it to stay additive but alas )

[hushed berry]

Or snotra/Gunnr.

[fierce island]

It's funny; additive crit bonuses are better for Anguish

[hushed berry]

Odi "nerf" pls

🥺

[fierce island]

It is actively bad for using crits in anguish that crits are still multiplicative 😆

[hushed berry]

I do think odie still intends on pushing the crit nerf, just not at the same time

[loud yew]

100%! I really wanna try this and use an Asgard summit weapon for free Gunnr and have a party member give the rest of the buffs

[hushed berry]

Which is to say, when the nerf drops, finally crits will be viable

?

[hushed berry]

I meaaaan.
At that point you can take the 2h malus since you're using asgard summit?

[loud yew]

Fair enough hahaha

[fierce island]

I know Odie's data seems to say otherwise, but I feel the slow drip and sword of Damaclese of nerfs hovering above people causes more player anxiety than just getting the nerfs done and moving on to new content

[hushed berry]

I do prefer the big explosion - everyone is scrambling, metas are all dead, and need to be reformed

But that is personal preference.

[fierce island]

Like, crits are gonna get nerfed

No really they will

Eventually they're getting nerfed

Watch out! Nerfs coming soon ™️

[hushed berry]

I hate the new ™️

[fierce island]

me too

[proper dagger]

I would also say 1 big boom and finito

[hushed berry]

Anyway Sirith if you wanna test party anguish at some point, I can

I'll come with support summoner

[loud yew]

I just feel having a bonus damage multiply restricts future item releases, because even the smallest bonus like 10% crit Dmg and result in a 60% Dmg increase or something

[loud yew]

I'm down!! I'm free for the next hour - hour and a half if you wanna test some things

[hushed berry]

Slides

[fierce island]

That is not how math works but I get what you're saying lol

[hexed hedge]

things that have too many multipliers:
BP, SS, Crit
All of which need to be adjusted

[hybrid sluice]

How does crit have too many multipliers? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean

Crit is just crit

Too many sources of crit multipliers is debatable I guess. Mainly just prom hands might be too much

[hexed hedge]

each prom hand is a multiplier, each amity is a multiplier, your equipment can have some mutliplier, some class has another multiplier

and i have not touch on ultima yet

[serene pike]

*Crit is crit buddy

[hybrid sluice]

There's a whole lot of skills that benefit from multipliers like this, but often they have multiple options/even more sources

There's also classes/skills that rely on raw stat gains that crit classes don't have great access to

Those raw stat gains are almost always more important than multipliers in the long run

There's give and take everywhere, and like I said maybe prom hands need tweaks

[edgy minnow]

ultima and towerfall have too many multipliers, but crit doesnt, things like +10% crit damage Is meh, crit chain is VERY specific, so you end up with prom hands and crit amities, which aren't really usable together in every case scenario, yes you can pull out an oracle with prom hands, but most of the times you become glass cannon that just hopes everything dies in 1 hit, with new system this is harder

oracle + prom hands still looses in damage to SS with same AL...

[loud yew]

I just said random numbers but yeah you get what I mean 😅

The most crit bonus Dmg you can get theoretically from items is 4.307x by stacking 5x prom hands, lost art, double crit amity and fallen sky Cowl

[fierce island]

Hmm, is there a bestial bond that boosts crit damage?

Yeah Fenrir

So add 14% to that lol

[loud yew]

Ah so 4.953x

[hybrid sluice]

Do we know if class mult is applied as 1.25x or is built into base crit mult

[fierce island]

The class multipliers are part of the classes and were still multiplicative

[loud yew]

So 6.191x if you're playing RS/Heretic

[keen timber]

I feel like the BeoH I fight near me is doing close to this, lol

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah I meant if we're doing a cross-class comparison

[fierce island]

I'm not sure what you meant by the other option, but they are applied as 1.25x

Or rather the base crit multiplier of 2x damage is replaced by 2.5x, which in essence is the same thing

[echo night]

If we really want to hurt crit I think targeting prom hand's massive crit chance is the better target

[edgy minnow]

bristles bristles its all bristles, this will only hurt early T10 and lower

(since they still use ashen pinions or dont have a lot of them for full crit), T11 are known for being so lazy that even casting wyrm song is "too long" so they run 100% base crit

[dense elk]

Friendly Neighborhood "Doesn't know anything about T11" here. Just here to double check, but RS/Heretic have access to Bestial Bond Lv. 2?
If not, I hope those class mults weren't added onto that 14% you don't have.

[edgy minnow]

now do ultima with old multipliers, where 2 amities can theoretically give x5.597 alone (2 elements + 40% crit)

[loud yew]

Yeahhh I realized that afterwards 😅
Class base crit always likes to screw up my math going between BeoH and RS/Heretic (and my spreadsheets )

[junior matrix]

Remember that your choices matter - if mix the lower EXP/Orn bonuses, that will affect the total bonus

the is ANG25 - enemy stats are at 550% (vs the 1000% in Ang 1.0 / Ang 50). that makes up for the malus

[gray solar]

No ward absorption either? 😮

[junior matrix]

i don't have it

[gray solar]

Guess I gotta look at the malus options again

[junior matrix]

these are despair/melancholy, per the example i'm responding to

[edgy minnow]

-75% 2h power

like the 2h rework never happened

[loud yew]

-30% crit chance / -15% crit Dmg

[junior matrix]

just don't use 2H crit, ez

[loud yew]

You underestimate my dedication to Swansong

[edgy minnow]

so we all can agree sirith using swansong for everything is the sole reason for -2h % existence

[loud yew]

[zealous coral]

Instead of 2h malus, ban sirith 🙌

[fierce island]

I'm more concerned about the viability of Slice/Cleave, which where looking like they might have a great place in Anguish 2.0 but being targeted by maluses on two fronts makes them completely unworkable

Forcing melee to resort to CS

While mages have their pick of Ara Vesta spells to use

[proper dagger]

But also mostly without crit, this could still be doable yeah

[fierce island]

You can try to dodge crit or 2h maluses, but dodging both is difficult

[junior matrix]

3 pathspurs ^

[zealous coral]

Permabuff fade 40%

[junior matrix]

good

[fierce island]

Odie is allergic to permanent statuses

[junior matrix]

permabuffs were a mistake

[proper dagger]

And may not necessarily, except for some less 2h weapons

Its not perma its also temporary

After every content i have to rebuff

[junior matrix]

it shouldn't affect temps, no

[keen timber]

cries in no celestial classes yet

[proper dagger]

But are the basic spells of the game

[zealous coral]

Temp buffs are more reliable than perma in high ang 👀

[fierce island]

Windtamer shield?

[keen timber]

Deities stay winning

[fierce island]

If not, you can get it in June

[zealous coral]

And horvus I think 🤔

[proper dagger]

Deity cs and deity windtamer

[edgy minnow]

mimic + aaru robe meta is even stronger

[keen timber]

Got someone in #👋│general offering me some griffins, which I plan to hit this afternoon. So 🤞

[fierce island]

Odie, does critical poise help maintain permanent (now temporary) statuses?

[proper dagger]

Maybe we can get some more/different buffing pets

[fierce island]

If critical poise helps, maybe Realmshifter Corvus suddenly wants it again 😆

[junior matrix]

it would, yeah

[fierce island]

That's great news for Heretics, very cool

[zealous coral]

Gilga CDpoise next update?

[loud yew]

Agree 100%, it just really feels like lack of options, I understand that full AoE may be a bit too strong, but there is no non-critting "chain-dmg" skills/spells (besides storming tempest, which probably has too little penetration to do anything at Ang 25 anyways)
I get anguish is gonna be slower and harder, but in towers if I have to kill every enemy 1 by 1 and somehow tank every hit that comes in-between that gonna feel a little too dragged out

[zealous coral]

Confirmed?

[proper dagger]

Would or does, 2 pairs of different

[fierce island]

Uh, Storming Tempest has an M1 of 2.5

[loud yew]

[fierce island]

It's going to be one the premier Anguish 2.0 options in this iteration. It's not hit by any maluses

And yet somehow I keep forgetting about it in my examples

[loud yew]

I was always under the impression it had bad pen... Interesting 🤔

[hybrid sluice]

Hnggg I still want critpoise to affect positive buffs only

[loud yew]

It uses magic Dmg correct?

[fierce island]

Magic "wind" damage

which is physical element magic damage

[keen timber]

I do actually want to dig into the beta, but live is conspiring to take all my free time

[loud yew]

Yee so still a non-option for "melee" classes

[hybrid sluice]

Like, corvus?

[fierce island]

Yes, Realmshifter stays losing

[keen timber]

Does this mean Magic Dagger is technically Wind damage?

[fierce island]

No

So magic dagger rolls against enemy defense

Storming tempest and other "wind" magic still roll against res

[keen timber]

Ah, got it

Thanks

[hybrid sluice]

Is wind damage based off both att and def?

[fierce island]

No

It's just magic

Take your heretical self, equip that shield, and go wild in full mage gear

[hybrid sluice]

Pure magic but physical element. I thought that's what corvus spells should have been

If only I had a decent windtamer shield

[zealous coral]

Whats the best mag weapon a pure warrior has access to?

[fierce island]

Fey Menja's Staff? Maybe?

Oh, the Arisen Fey Crowsong, duh

[zealous coral]

Imma keep that in mind ty s2

[keen timber]

To pull from D&D, don’t think of it as physical. Think of it as Force, or whatever. If physical is the “neutral state” of weapon damage, it’s the neutral state of magic. Ignore this. Extremely bad analogy.

Wait. An enemy resistant to Physical would, or would not, resist Wind damage?

Because if they would, my analogy falls apart. lol

[gray solar]

We spend too many turns not attacking for it to be very beneficial 😥

[fierce island]

Would

[keen timber]

RIP

[fierce island]

Physical functions exactly as an element in Orna, like Earth or Dragon

[keen timber]

Okay, ignore that analogy then

[dense elk]

Shoutout to my favourite wacky weapon in T3, Cutlass ||Software 🤍||

which has Physical Element

[fierce island]

The only functionality of a weapon having a physical element is that you're not allowed to enchant it with a different element

All weapons, unless otherwise elemented, are invisibly enchanted with physical

[junior matrix]

[serene bluff]

Can someone give a quick summary of today's log of messages? I feel like there are too many and I would hate to repeat something covered 😄 Feel free to DM if you can Sirith 😄

All these chats on this side have 25+ new messages lol

and that's just this side

[fierce island]

• Anguish hates 2h weapons
• Odie likes buff fade
• Windtamer shield is the item to have for Anguish 2.0

[serene bluff]

Awesome

Also DT tools are not restricted to any quality item

Confirmed by the man himself

[fierce island]

Yeah that one was pretty easy to test in beta lol

[serene bluff]

I thought it was a bug

[fierce island]

I just assumed it was intentional but good to have confirmation

[serene bluff]

Does Anguish Gear only drop ornate?

[fierce island]

Yes

More specifically, only ornates drop anguished

The Anguish gear % chance is the chance any given ornate is anguished

[serene bluff]

Yarp

[manic cave]

I dont like buff fade. I spend too much time at the start of a content piece buffing up already. I dont want to have to rebuff along the way. Just sayin...

[loud yew]

So I've been swapping between path choices a lot recently, I can see myself doing it alot in the future when testing and trying out different builds, I think I would honestly like it more if every anguish level you got to unlock a choice and then need a pathspur to unlock the others, but once unlocked they stay unlocked and then have an option to "save loadout" but for your anguish choices, even if the unlock wasn't permanent and you could just save choices in a "load out" kind of way and it costs the pathspurs every time to swap.
I've already easily used 100-120+ pathspurs trying out different anguish combos and I'm okay paying them to swap things around when things go live, but it's getting a little tedious constantly going in, going through each choice and changing them every time.
Though I may be an outlier here with my obsession of trying out builds and combos...
(Sorry for the wall of text, started typing this when chat was dead 😅)

[gray solar]

Server patch just went out

Permanent fade buff now 1%
2H malus now 3%
Crit chance down to 6%
And crit damage down to 8%
Status protection down to 1%
Accuracy down to 1%
Zerks down to 3% 😦

Shoulda bumped up the zerk chance!

Actually, the values fluctuate level to level somewhat?

[junior matrix]

The gist was fixing the bug where maluses were always offered at their max %

[fierce island]

Zerk chance is my favorite bonus in the Despair path

Er, I mean malus, definitely a malus, need to make it bigger

[gray solar]

Exactly!

Im not anguished enough
Zerks really anguish my gameplay
Need more

[fierce island]

Lol

[gray solar]

Do you want more feedback on the maluses with the bug fix, or are there more malus changes in the works?

[serene bluff]

I am ok with perma buffs having a chance to fade, would like them to be condense a little more so we don't lose them while we are buffing them though

Anguish Horde Endless when?

Also not sure if I like it being a chance to fade per mob, maybe per floor for Dungeons?

[orchid coral]

Dont we have temp buffs just do that?

[serene bluff]

A lot of temp buffs are random though?

Or Pots

[orchid coral]

Whats next random ward resets?

[fierce island]

This incentivizes using gear that grants temp buff skills to followers, or can grant it on it's own, which may be an interesting dynamic to explore if you really wanted to lean into the permanent buffs fading

which mages also have better access to than melee classes

[junior matrix]

no reason to stop now

[gray solar]

Tinkering around with the usual tower set up post malus bug fix, plus other observations

• the reduction to both the 2H malus and the permanent buff fade chance are great. Both are still impactful, but not so much to the point of either killing 2H weapons entirely or making content be permanently buffless. Im masochistic so id argue the buff fade chance could be bumped up to 2%. 🙂
• the reduction to crit malus is cool, but the malus is probably still too harsh. Having to stack pinions is a pretty big malus already, and the lowest I've seen for crit chance is 5%. Maybe remove the damage multiplier part?
• as a realmshifter, the fire/water/earth/lightning malus was already a freebie so the reduction makes it more free. My honest impression was these could have been buffed to be 10%, but the heretics would probably come for me in the night
• the arcane/dragon/holy/dark malus is slightly more impactful since dragon damage is occasionally required, id have left it at 5% static though.
• the damage from x enemy are low key the most troublesome because of very specific mobs, and at least towers required me to not stack too much northern. I liked the static 5% here too, the lower values nerf the overall difficulty too much
• ward fail is still problematic and just not a good malus
• ward absorption still causes major issues for realm raiding and dungeons. Its kills the choice completely for raids, and is disproportionately worse in dungeons than for any other class. I know we can avoid it now, but i dont love only getting 2 or 3 options while other classes get four
• id have left accuracy and status protection at 2% as well

[compact rover]

Oh, I'm curious on why Odie likes Buff fade (I suppose more than other maluses)

[gray solar]

Cause its a really good malus

[serene bluff]

He said it today earlier that Permanent buffs were a mistake

I just don't like that it's per mob hit

for the fade chance

[compact rover]

A mistake ?! 😰

[serene bluff]

2% would be 10.4% chance per group of 5 mobs

[compact rover]

The whole game kinda depends on it now

[tribal pond]

I feel like it was a joke lol

[compact rover]

Yeah, I wonder if he's trolling us

[tribal pond]

context; wow 40% perm buff fade chance?
perm buffs were a mistake

[compact rover]

There are RPG games with only temporary buffs

But it means enemies ALSO have fading chance

[compact rover]

feels weird, I thought it was per turn

The worst is, the malus ignore temporary buffs, in the end temp buffs will last longer than permanent ones, the irony

[serene bluff]

Unless it was a bug, when it was higher, it was almost a 24% chance per floor loss

working similar to how Avidity or CD works I think they are per boss no?

[zealous coral]

Im under the impression that the game was balanced with permabuffs in mind. I can see tmm being king with fade chance unless some more pets can become efficient buff providers too 🤔

This is not a criticism on how odie views orna, but on how pets might be seen in ang 2.0

[gray solar]

Permanent buff fade chance solves a "problem" in that people can't spend 40 turns getting every buff under the sun on floor 1 of a dungeon, and then steamroll the rest of it

It forces some degree of interaction with what is otherwise static player power, and forces continuous strategy around when its safe to buff/recover beyond just the start of the dungeon

It also stops people from doing 3 or 4 gear swaps to get otherwise not available buffs and then keeping those the whole dungeon as well

[compact rover]

Aah, snapshoting, yes the bane of challenge

I understand better the idea

It would be interesting if the Positive buff duration could work to slow down the fading chance

[gray solar]

I dont think anybody would enjoy a meta where we queued 5 dungeons, did 3 spec swaps, two gear swaps, and then blasted away

[gray solar]

Yeah i agree. Which in theory it should(?) If crit poise affects it which Odie confirmed

[desert scaffold]

2x 40% crit amities and possibly Prometheus is the most theyre doing, but even that is a little sweaty

[junior matrix]

yes, the game was build around it and it's not something i could take out

but if i could go back in time...

[hybrid sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/back-to-the-future-disappearance-time-travel-gif-4584294

[compact rover]

If only there was a game teased to comeback to the old days ... mmmh 🤔

[junior matrix]

heh, it still has perma statuses

[tribal pond]

maybe not a joke then!

[compact rover]

Well it wouldn't be THAT late to correct that "recent" error like the multiplicative ward

[junior matrix]

🙊

[orchid coral]

Im not sure if im on board with the perma fade, i like to play fragile high dps setups already and we gonna get locks on ang lv pve content already so no switches for me (knly have deity at 70AL) i just pop mimic+snotra/gunnr and go brr.

[gusty basalt]

Anguish will probably make you change that strategy then

And that is totally ok

[hushed berry]

This explains some Aidle decisions...

[manic cave]

I just dont quite understand how we went from permabuffs being literally non-issue forever to them now being persona non grata.

[hushed berry]

If I had to guess, Odie probably hasn't liked them ever since snapshotting cheese

[upper meadow]

If you choose all the highest orn boost will be 225%, and the luck bonus giving by battle modifiers is fix, it will be only 100% about.

[manic cave]

That's a sensible guess.

[upper meadow]

Compare to 1.0 luck bonus, it is 200%

And 2.0 didnt giving any gold bonus too.

Ang 2.0 is lot harder with battle modifiers, I think reward should suit the challenge.

Another problem i saw on battle modifiers, if you planning to changing between teamplay & solo, you required a lot token to change your battle modifiers.

[gray solar]

Regarding the pathspurs, I think Sirith had a great idea that the first unlock each level is free, and then we can permanently unlock the other options using a pathspur

Having to pay everytime we want to experiment/change parties/whatever is probably going to be not enjoyable

[upper meadow]

Yes when i wish to experiment other playstyle, it will required another cost for token.

[junior matrix]

it's likely fruitless to look at luck bonus fwiw, we're often capping luck before anguish bonus

[upper meadow]

And something about shackles, do shackles got a decrease limited for the ang reward？

[junior matrix]

luck bonus in anguish is only useful for raids, which didn't exist in anguish 1.0

[upper meadow]

I wonder if someone like byre 300al, how his reward on 25ang

[upper meadow]

We still need basic 200% luck to using a rod

[fallen zenith]

Endless meta already a thing

[upper meadow]

I had experience high ang, we are unable to maxing luck if using a rod.

[edgy minnow]

what about key return in dungeons? old anguish allowed us to swap luck gear and still cap luck using anguish bonus, with new, harder anguish, we won't cap luck and loose keys rapidly

[upper meadow]

With shackles + we are unable to equip luck equipment because those monster almost 1-2 shot us.

[junior matrix]

i have a 135% luck bonus an ANG25 meloncholy. this means i am already hitting cap for underworld, chaos, battleground, and valleys by only using a dowsing rod (1.35 x 1.5 x 2.0 = 4.05)

cap is 4.0

[hushed berry]

Wait, those dungeons have built in luck bonus??

[junior matrix]

yes

[tribal pond]

https://tenor.com/view/the-universe-tim-and-eric-mind-blown-mind-blown-meme-mind-explosion-mind-explosion-meme-gif-18002878

[hushed berry]

I.. I thought they had extra End of Gauntlet rewards

[uncut rampart]

a fire was just called in at cade labs

[edgy minnow]

valleys are a key sinkhole even with 800% luck

[junior matrix]

it's what this means ^

[hushed berry]

Upon completion doesn't mean End of Dungeon rewards, and it means just Luck?

[edgy minnow]

it doesnt mean EOD rewards but luck bonus???

[hushed berry]

Slightly confusing

[junior matrix]

obviously you should read "upon completion" as "after every battle"

[tribal pond]

Obvs!

[hushed berry]

As opposed to "Upon completion of the dungeon" yep

[junior matrix]

but also

replace that dungeon with shrine of luck

and you conveniently have (1.35 x 1.5 x 2.0 = 4.05) again

[smoky raven]

fortunately if that makes you mad you can take your anger out on the odie raid soon

[edgy minnow]

I'm just worried that with less luck, new anguish would make alt key farm abuse even worse

[dense elk]

I ain't never heard of these dungeon types, so clearly they don't matter at all

thanks for the info though 👍

[fierce island]

I mean it does mean extra EoD rewards

Like, that is very easy to show and prove lol

[upper meadow]

It means 2.0 dungeon got extra x2 luck now？

[hushed berry]

So it's both yeah, gotcha.

[edgy minnow]

can we buy shrines with anguish proofs then? 👉 👈 please?

[upper meadow]

Sorry im not good in english, sometime may be confuse

[fierce island]

Shrines are really easy to get other places and you probably have more important things to buy with anguish proofs lol

[edgy minnow]

that is true yes, I have travelers guild for that

[upper meadow]

Because the rod just 1.5

[hushed berry]

~6 deep dungeons fuel a shrine

[junior matrix]

no, you already have that luck running those dungeons. you likely don't need half that luck gear you're already using, and the anguish bonus is useless

[gray solar]

Keys also dont require max luck

T11 dungeons are key positive with just dowsing rod iirc

[upper meadow]

So a rod with 1.5 will just max 400% luck right？Okie i get it

[edgy minnow]

wdym, im doing max luck + anguish and they still going down

[fierce island]

Bad RNG ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[desert scaffold]

what bwubble said, max luck in dungeon is overrated. it used to be 2.0 iirc

[gray solar]

Small sample sizes can skew the results

If you clear 100 dungeons you'll have more keys

[fierce island]

They are just barely key positive iirc

[gray solar]

But a single death can mess that up pretty bad

[upper meadow]

And about the ang proof drops, it is pretty low compare to old 50

[junior matrix]

because they are worth more.

dropping less quarters is better than dropping more pennies

[upper meadow]

Im able to get 70+ with 5 x no theme dungeon

[gentle grove]

Anguish 2.0 is meant to be more challenging now so don't expect the same gains as before with similar difficulty

[upper meadow]

I need to wait the Ang shop update

So i will know new proof worth or not

[upper meadow]

Well everyone will compare before do a challenge

[edgy minnow]

words about mat cost rebalance been said at the start of beta, dont look at them right now

[upper meadow]

If the reward dont suit it, it become a suffer

[gentle grove]

Exactly. Anguish haha

[upper meadow]

If real Anguish should remove all reward lol

So the guild still build on reward system

[desert scaffold]

isnt the point to add difficulty lvls beyond anguish 50?

[junior matrix]

we're redoing Anguish because it was too easy. suggesting 2.0 should be the same difficulty as 1.0 invalidates this whole effort and is not a reasonable argument

[upper meadow]

Thats the way to encourage player doing it

[edgy minnow]

my only problem with less rewards is that new anguish has AL requirements, and they are pretty high, only those who ran refineries / anguish dungeons like crazy can afford such AL's

[upper meadow]

I think everyone accept the challange, but the reward need to scale more

[desert scaffold]

herbalism guild when

[upper meadow]

Unlucky my al cap at 97, im only able to do 37ang / 38ang

If i got more al i will able to do more test.

[desert scaffold]

are you on a schedule to meet ascension lvl 100?

[junior matrix]

i hear this a lot but i'm not certain we've been keen on suggesting what those rewards are