Mage Rework Feedback Thread

[raven path]

Macha scroll from t8, dragon's scroll from t8 or arisen witch's scroll from t9 will probably be the most likely options while entering t10 and mid t10 the easiest to get will probably be fey scroll from arena

[robust nebula]

I'm still Nekromancer, but after trying the flasks, they just aren't worth it in most cases unless I'm playing it wrong. I don't need them for regular enemies. Most raids and many bosses don't even have elemental weakness, so if I were to charge the flasks I'd have to (in most cases) use a less powerful spell than I generally would, and even then the effects aren't great. Sure, my blood-ray flask can crit, but that barely makes up for the loss in damage from the weaker spells I just used to get there. The Nekromancer Flask is just trash because the summons can't damage most raids/bosses. The inflection flask is fine, but again to use it I'd have to use weaker spells, meaning I'd take less damage anyway than if I was able to kill the boss quicker. The banishment flask is similar, it's cool I can banish all summons, but it's a massive trade off in terms of the length of the battle. I again recognize that I'm still on the grind, but my main complaint with the mage class line is how long boss fights and raids take, and this didn't help at all. In fact if I actually use the flasks the fights can take much longer. Also they took away my mana siphon...

I haven't experimented with the scrolls yet to see how the update affected them so maybe I need to look into that

[chilly timber]

Which weaker spells are you referring to? You’ll just need any spell with an element

[robust nebula]

I'm still purchasing some of the elemental spells, but essentially every elemental spell I have is weaker than fully charged Nekrosis. Multi-flare can do similar damage, but doesn't work well against bosses (per the description). I'm still experimenting, but yeah. I will admit I haven't tried any of the "unstable" elemental spells with the flasks cause I don't proc my life siphon enough to balance the recoil damage

[unreal flume]

Filling Flasks

Flasks can be charged faster if you have a scroll equipped.
The scrolls currently available have different charge rates (50%, 60%, 75% or 100%).
-# Can receive up to 2x more charge with a Scroll.
-# Fills even if you miss the target
-# Hitting multiple enemies doesn't fill faster

Flasks on Heretic B/A:

-# Approximate values

• Chakram/Vesta = 12.5%

• 8x element (Omnimancy) = 16%

• 1x element = 12.5% if it doesn't hit weakness

• 1x element = 25% if it hits weakness

• 2x element (Omnimancy) = 18.63% if it doesn't hit weakness

• 2x element (Omnimancy) = 37.27% if it hits weakness

---

Beta:

• 3x element (Omnimancy) = 28% if it doesn't hit weakness
• 3x element (Omnimancy) = 56% if it hits weakness

---

• 4x element (Omnimancy) = 37.5% if it doesn't hit weakness
• 4x element (Omnimancy) = 75% if it hits weakness

Flasks on Heretic C (+30% filling):

-# Approximate values

• Chakram/Vesta = 16%

• 8x element (Omnimancy) = 20.5%

• 1x element = 16% if it doesn't hit weakness

• 1x element = 32.5% if it hits weakness

• 2x element (Omnimancy) = 24.25% if it doesn't hit weakness

• 2x element (Omnimancy) = 48.5% if it hits weakness

---

Beta:

• 3x element (Omnimancy) = 36.5% if it doesn't hit weakness
• 3x element (Omnimancy) = 73% if it hits weakness

---

• 4x element (Omnimancy) = 48.5% if it doesn't hit weakness
• 4x element (Omnimancy) = 97.5% if it hits weakness

If you use a weaker scroll that increases the charge rate by 50%, with omniblast(a) you can have enough charge to be sustainable

So you can get it before A.Morrigan's scroll

[lean rampart]

Ha-ha. 😑

[coarse chasm]

Ok, so not likely a great solution for lower tier 10. Feel more like a mid tier 10 if you require specific drops. I am guessing that Arisen Morrigan is a event raid boss, since I haven't seen it since I have been playing.

[chilly timber]

Fully charged Nekrosis will already be among the best DPS offerings in T8. Flasks weren’t really meant to outclass it - more of an identity toolset.

Over time, you should be finding yourself using them more situationally, but T8 damage was already adequate imo

[robust nebula]

I'm still curious about removing mana siphon then. If the blood flasks are meant to "replace" it but then are hyper situational, why remove the mana siphon at all? I'd even be okay with a nerf, as long as I had it but I may be alone in that

Should I maybe look at scrolls with + mana instead?

[unreal flume]

It's a good option. But there are already some ornaments and items with mana regeneration that I believe are available before the necro

Necromancer has Repetition Flask too, so it looks good to me.

[grave verge]

I hate the changes. Hate them. Thematically, mechanically...I could not be more disappointed.

I had a build I liked and worked hard and long on that is no longer viable. It feels like starting from zero on something I wouldn't have chose in the first place.

I'm not sure it matters that you'll lose one player over this, but you might. It's the dog days of winter here and it's already tough to play a GPS game and this is killing whatever motivation I might have had.

[burnt tangle]

At least for T11 with 34 ascension levels, the new flasks are situationally useful, and after a couple days of using them the situations are not all too many. When it works (e.g., raids with Heretic Ara + Sigil Stormflask + all offensive buffs active), it's pretty satisfying. Otherwise it basically just doesn't exist.

I think I miss the mana saver on Heretic a lot though, especially since we finally have a non-Ebon Star or Mana Rush method of killing our mana pool to activate Iconoclast; managing mana is harder now overall. Base Heretic Endless was somewhat easy to get set up and managed, but I have to retool for mana regen, and I haven't figured out Heretic Corvus (though I didn't have it figured it out before either).

Thematically it feels odd as the line up to this point was all about having enough skills to exploit elemental weaknesses and easier time casting spells with reduced costs built-in (not to mention flasks/potions feeling odd as an identify focus in general at this point in time). Base Heretic's flask options don't interact with elemental weaknesses at all which is very odd when adding/enhancing the classline's identity. HAra finally gets a method to more-or-less autoapply sigils which is amazing. A small defensive bonus during channeling makes using multi-turn spells (even 3-turns like Divine Bastion, Ultima II with the full quickcast setup as 2-turns with a defensive buff for incoming big damage) interesting. HCorvus maintaining buffs through crits is also interesting and seems to give it a bit more of a differentiating factor imo. But still, not having a way ourselves to easily manage mana (without adorns or playing with diffuse ward) with relatively increased costs feels odd, as does the classline essentially ignoring elemental weaknesses post-Ultima with Ultima+Ara spells.

[robust nebula]

Makes sense. It's possible I just passed them over for some other reason, but I'm always looking at new gear

[robust nebula]

This is kinda the vibe I'm getting from most of this thread. Imo it's not exactly an "identity" when the use case is so limited

[unreal flume]

It has a T8 armor, I believe the event is active at the moment, which recovers mana when it receives damage in the ward

[robust nebula]

Nice. I'll try to grind some of the raids then. I have plenty of the scrolls for it

[worn wolf]

Kind of a Mage and UI thing here,

Can we get a display in Towers of our current flask charges? Likely coupled into the same screen showing the Tower buffs?

I frequently do a tower over multiple sessions and it's easy to forget my charges after an hour, but also flasks really impactful on what encounters I choose to do when

[robust nebula]

I haven't read the whole thread yet so I don't know if someone brought it up, and I highly doubt this would be viable, but one thing that would make me like flasks a tiny bit more is if they would maintain charge. Obviously this wouldn't work in PvP or kingdom raids where every encounter is a reset, but if I could charge my flasks against weak enemies in PvE and then jump on a boss or overworld raid with fully charged flasks it might be neat.

[shut temple]

Odie, tri-elementals still have the strong penalty, in case you updated something and it isn't reflecting or something

[coarse chasm]

I understand, and I was feeling the same way for the first couple days. There are options, but they still don't feel good yet. The new builds seem to be more gear driven so far, and I haven't been T10 long enough to get those items or have access to most of them. What build were you running? Maybe someone here can help brain storm a new way of playing. Many have already helped me, and while not perfect, it gives me something to work towards.

[coarse chasm]

For me finding a 4% missing mana regen Amity has been all i need with bloodloss to stay in the right zone for blue lining. I might need to step down to a 2% missing mana regen instead to get deeper down or change out of Maji later when I have gear for a different base build.

[worn wolf]

At 244 al 18 I've found solid use of most every flask with the exceptions of Mana-Seep, and Inflection. Inflection is barely useful but has saved me maybe once raiding, but not outside of raids. Otherwise liking the flasks thus far

[coarse chasm]

Tri-elementals?

[coarse chasm]

At 230, Inflection is basically the only reason I ascend about 20 floors in a tower... It has saved me more than once against hordes of heavy melee enemies while trying to buff myself to withstand the onslaught. I just do not have good enough DEF to survive most encounters in the tower. Outside of the tower, I have never really used it.

In PVP, not being able to target a main threat, the banishment flask has cost me more than a few matches against summoners. It is a toss up if it is worth trying or not. About the same amount of the time, it is faster to throw a fey spell and pray.

[shut temple]

T10 has tri elementals

Water, fire, lightning for example

They charge better than dual

But currently getting penaltied by immunities

[raven path]

This is still in the beta build right?

[shut temple]

At anguish 23 al 27, i have used mana seep on turn 1-2 or when full, while i buff i keep getting 5% less.mana and ASG is buffing my ward by the floor 10 i have 0 mana and just keep spamming qatvanga

I could also use bloodloss ofc but i feel manaseep helps More my purpose of getting to 0 while progressing through the floors faster

[shut temple]

It is yes

[raven path]

Omniflask and lower tier counterparts could be nice for the earlier classes getting a nuke

[raven path]

Earlier tier classes don't really have many options to quickly charge flasks so I think it might be balanced

How about a flask that lets you get the WE final spell cast effect? 🤔

[shut temple]

Good thing is that omniblast and Tri-elemental charge alot

[raven path]

Yeah, I don't expect that to be in t10 versions but could be nice on t7-t9

[shut temple]

well omnimancy introduces dual I and dual II, so T10 introduces tri, and t9 celestials have quad (omniblast/a) so you have your choices to have nice-ish damage, good m1 and nice charge rate

for WE, i can only think an easier version that is, instead of each elemental once until 8th cast, make it 8 casts and then reset

[coarse chasm]

Double cast your next spell?

[shut temple]

so you can use like the same elemental spell, seal or w.e and on the 8th you don't crit/dual, but you ramp-up your damage from each cast

[raven path]

Yeah

Could be nice

[shut temple]

in that sense you weave the elements, but not necessarily of each element

[raven path]

For lower tiers

[shut temple]

and in the visuals instead of having "Arcane, Earth, Fire, Water" etc.etc. you get "Weaved: 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4" and after having "8th" you go back to 1, losing your % ramp-up and starting the loop again

i feel it unecessary to have WE back, but i'm not Low Heretic so I can only have the testimony of other heretics that their damage just got super worse xD

[brittle birch]

TBH atm i just feel ass about here, in all aspects

all low lvl heretics say its ass, and high level heretics which mods said were the balance point, feel underhwelming. idk if odie also changed some resistance values, but on some mobs i no longer do damage... which is really not a good thing to see as a t10... my multi spark went from 11k dmg to ortanite golem to... 2 thousand... i do more damage to morrigan than to ortanite golems...

[coarse chasm]

Use water attacks on Ortanite golems. 🙂 They now have a vulnerability to it.

[brittle birch]

also flasks are really not it... all blood flasks just dont do anything outside of pvp, because we already run out of mana fast without heretic passive. also the banishment flask does not work... i think odie said half filled flask should banish 2 summons, it banishes one... and its not even banishing them actually, cause some summons just... SURVIVE. dark pegasus summon is i guess too big of a task to remove with a full blood flask

[brittle birch]

thats good to hear, but... why does my factions elemental attack, with 0 changes to my stats, go from 11-13k to... 2?

[shut temple]

my damage didn't got lower, so maybe some build changed? another enemy? you had other buffs? if anything my damage just went up xD

[brittle birch]

nope, same exact build, same exact ortanite golem, no buffs full mana

arcanus still does same damage to it, but multi spark does 80% ish less damage

[coarse chasm]

I haven't noticed much difference for my faction damage against most enemies. I don't use multi attack much though anymore. I tend to use Fey elemental spells though because the crit makes up for the steady damage lost most of the time.

[atomic cypress]

In the recent patch many monsters were given immunities/resistances to elements

Ortanite golem now has lightning immunity

You are doing 25% damage compared to before because you are bypassing the immunity, but only doing 25% damage as a result.

This is achievable at all because of the new passive Odie gave heretics that let's them bypass immunities

[brittle birch]

... why the hell are numbers not red at least, like he has a damn resistance

ok, guess i need to check every single codex again... mb on that one

[coarse chasm]

Ahh I missed the lightning immunity. It would be very nice if when efficacious was invoked the damage was a different color!

[shut temple]

yeah it has been discussed if we can have a different color for efficacious

[brittle birch]

exactly... and if we did not have the codex buton still yellow even tho codex changed

[shut temple]

it's up to Odie to add it or nott

[brittle birch]

damage numbers would be nice... but we got some bigger issues... like banishing flask not... banishing... at all.. and flasks that eat mana being kind of useless since heretic passive is gone. and recast flask being the only actually usable flask in raids...

[worn wolf]

@coarse chasm thats awesome bro, I hope it continues to net you gains. I'll have to try it out in some more situations I suppose.

@shut temple appreciate the context on how Mana Seep is useful for you. I'm not engaged in Anguish Gameplay quite yet so I'm looking forward to that. Your use case is really solid and I could see myself using it that way Aswell.

[brittle birch]

which class? i dont see it

[unreal flume]

It's on Heretic, in beta version

[unreal flume]

I haven't tested this in a few days, but the flask should hit the summon with damage equal to its total hp (summons with ward or other things like that still stay alive)

[brittle birch]

herege? a celestial version of here or a new class in the magic tree?

[raven path]

Base heretic

The 3 element omnimancy spells and the omniflask are being tested in beta

[brittle birch]

thats nice to hear, something new

[unreal flume]

Fixed 😂

[brittle birch]

?

[raven path]

Herege edited to Heretic

The mistake in the message has been fixed

[brittle birch]

if only they could fix the banishment flask that fast...

[pseudo turtle]

Heretic edited to alchemist

[raven path]

I'll have to do some testing for t8/t9 mague in my alt soon

More likely t9 than t8

That alt has no orns for classes tho

[main granite]

Someone needs to test early t10 omniflask damage

[raven path]

Gimme 6 months and it'll be done

[shut temple]

Heretic at Lvl 230

Beta

[unreal flume]

We made numerous complaints before coming to live, how did it get here, I believe it is a planned design

[brittle birch]

i mean 2 days ago odie said it was supposed to banish 2 summons with half flask...

after it went live

[shut temple]

odie said that it's 25% per summon, but he'll look on why it wasn't working on 50% bloodflask = didn't banish 2 summons

[brittle birch]

yeah that

[shut temple]

so it might still be in the works, i'm not odie's servant to know if he's having a rough or productive day xD

[feral token]

I would delete it completely ||I swear I'm not a summoner main, pls believe me 😔 ||

[raven path]

Just turn weaved elements into a flask, ez solution

[brittle birch]

nah its all good, im not talking trash, i know orna is not a triple A title with 75 developers

on the other hand, i am salty AF that flasks feel bad and my mana pots are suffering

[raven path]

It's 12.5% flask per single element hit right, basically 8 turns (until omnimancy and scrolls come into play)

[shut temple]

which is fun because at lvl 230 you use a tri-elemental (which most likely hit weakness, and you'll get ... checking...

56%

[coarse chasm]

If the tri-elements get out of beta...

[shut temple]

why they wouldn't xD?

[raven path]

Is omniblasta/blast better or worse than tri element?

[shut temple]

and if they not, you get blast

[shut temple]

damage wise i think omni is worse, but fills faster

my omni dealt 11k , my gale volcanis dealt 45k

same % iconoclast

[raven path]

Damn

[shut temple]

omni recovers 75%, tri recovers 56

without scrolls ofc

[brittle birch]

75% of flask?

[raven path]

Yeah

[shut temple]

indeed my friend

[brittle birch]

i mean thats dope... if only we had more than 1 useful flask XD

[raven path]

With amorri scroll that's 150% flask

Btw, is only t10 base getting a nuke flask or multiple tiers?

[shut temple]

with corvus+ morri that's like 197% btw

Ik it's not a real battle tho, but im also not buffed and have only staff+scroll

some have already tested that a good fun way, is buff -> sigil -> Vesta 3 a couple of times and basically all 15m mobs are dead :v

[coarse chasm]

How often does the event come around for Arisen Morrigon?

[worn wolf]

Event is 2 or 3 times a year I think but A Morrigan is always summonable

[raven path]

3 times I think? April is regular run, almost always in December waves and forgetting the last month

[worn wolf]

Plus NF said they aren't as stuck to the old event schedule anymore, so we could see more smaller runs of the event

[raven path]

Nvm, just April and December. But yeah, a.morri spawn year round albeit much more rarely

[worn wolf]

IIRC we got fed up with month long Morrigan and it was reduced in length but increased frequency to quell sentiment

[raven path]

Month long morrigan is basically a free break from the game

[shut temple]

it breaks your mind i agree :v

you can still get like fey scroll which gives 75% i think?

[raven path]

Okay, I'm blind. It's April, November and December

[shut temple]

or the normal morri as well

[raven path]

A.Morri and sisters

[shut temple]

there's plenty of options, a.morri is just the one that gives 100%

[raven path]

Fey scroll gives 80% I think

Might be wrong, lemme check yaco

Nvm, 50% on fey

[coarse chasm]

With a basic summoning scroll? Sorry, I have never seen one, but I am new so...

[raven path]

Yeah, kinda rare but she can spawn all year round

[shut temple]

fey gives 50%,
arisen witch gives 60%,
dragon gives also 50%,
Merlin gives 75%,
Macha gives 100%

macha is a t8

and you're immune to T.Mag -, -- and ---

[raven path]

Macha also from morrigan event though

[worn wolf]

Yep, that's correct. She's a very very low chance to summon. If you want to get her, I'd turn off event content when summoning.

[raven path]

Pure stats wise, I'd probably go for fey or dragon

[shut temple]

yes, but it's WAY easier to beat Macha than A.Morri xD

[raven path]

Outside of just manaflask charge

[raven path]

That is true

[raven path]

(unless I get morri ofcourse)

[worn wolf]

Total side tangent but have we seen AMorri in any Arisen Waygate events?

[shut temple]

morri is 75% btw

and that is from kingdom

[shut temple]

thankfully no

or maybe once now that i think of it

[worn wolf]

Maybe during the initial runs of Other Realms

[shut temple]

maybe

[raven path]

Very rare, since t10 ones are usually super raids

[worn wolf]

This is prolly for the best anyway hahaha

[shut temple]

it is

i can't imagine fighting for 400m a.morri xD

i would be like Buff -> dead :v

dammit -> try again

lol

[shut temple]

i think Anguish 2.0 was planned to be on March's Beta btw

[onyx anvil]

Scroll club?

[astral moth]

Nice!

[onyx anvil]

I would upgrade it if i knew what i would use it for

The mag stat seems crazy

[grave verge]

I was running a magus/standard Heretic. I had largely figured it out myself. I am not sure it was optimal, but it worked for me.

I don't doubt there are those who could help me optimize for the new class, but that's never really been how I like to play (following guides or meta-builds). I like to figure out my own way. I'm not sure I have the desire to do that, though.

[unreal flume]

Note: Several scrolls still have descriptions that mention the negative ward.

[onyx anvil]

Does anyone have a common quality morrigan scroll? Just to compare

[shut temple]

Use the codex from orna ?

Website

[shut temple]

Magic: 77
Mana: 143
Ward: 20%
Foresight: 40
Manaflask Charge: +100%

you have a 194% dayum

[onyx anvil]

Holy shit

[chilly timber]

I get it, really. These identity changes will invalidate builds and that can be frustrating. there's simply no way around that

This was a long time coming, and well requested, so I would say it needed to happen. Whether it was flasks - or something else entirely - the chances of your build being invalidated is likely guaranteed

I can say that flasks are the result of weeks of research. However, if you're in the early T10 camp that is suffering due to the weaved element loss - know that the Omniflask developements above are 100% for you

[worthy grove]

I’m just looking at the fact that there are quite a few changes and I’m trying to figure it out. I’m not frustrated. I just don’t have a clue what I’m doing anymore.

I’m not sure from what I’m reading that there is boost to spells as a heretic because they don’t use their flask or whether or not you use your flask to get boost to spells. It’s not very clear and that is frustrating.

[lusty nimbus]

I'll add a bit of feedback as I keep playing this more

-for a potential future flask idea maybe on a piece of gear: "Squelching Flask": remove all temp buffs from an enemy

Corvus' flasks options do feel a little off in Towers and it does seem to be the best at them so far if only by a little (but all 3 Heretics can do them so that is cool). I'm curious if Mana Ray could be swapped for the AoE flask and that would help 🤔

On that vein of thought, I still haven't found a place where I'd rather manaseep than bloodloss flask

I think my favorite part about the rework right now is that none of the 3 Heretics feel locked into a single spec, build or set of gear in the same way. I still have a lot of testing to do as Endless runs and Anguish are my next projects to tackle but I'm still really liking what we've got and look forward to the additional beta changes/potential flask swaps.

[storm viper]

I don't see the use for Manaseep over Bloodloss, either. Especially without the innate Mana discount we had (but I don't mind losing that).

Agreed on towers. Anguish is more comfortable at ~45 but 50 doesn't feel impossible anymore; It can't be blitzed though, or I haven't figured out how to do that yet (although I've only run Anguish dungeons as base Hera).

Endless experimentation is pending for me as well.

[lusty nimbus]

I did a lot of endless work in the beta and Corvus shined pretty brightly there - I almost tied my unascended Deity Ara clearing 400 in farming gear in the trial runs (AL0) so that is promising

But I want to do more runs on live now and see how far I can take it in farming gear

Chakram, Viperseal III, Magic Scythe and of course Ultima were very nice in beta and cycling Gullinkambi for t.Dex 3, Phoenix for DC, and Archimedes/Steward Gwyg for t.Mag 3 was working pretty well

[storm viper]

This seems like such a hassle but I'll give it a try, eventually 😅

[shut temple]

so you cycle between those three pets each time the buff goes away!?

[lusty nimbus]

yeah but I rarely had to in my testing

[shut temple]

i say i'll give it a shot one of these days buuuuuuut

[main granite]

I did some omniflask testing in the last hour. Results are interesting but here's an unrelated issue with flask loadout not being customizable

Confusion is even more annoying

As for the results... building towards omniflask yields identical results as building towards crit ultima.

Here are results building towards crit ultima. I posted the stats screenshot further down

This was the loadout, except that the aaru robe had mostly ashen pinions. Amity is 40% crit

These were the buffs and the final iconoclast percentage for ultima.

---

Now as for Omniflask... here's the loadout and stats. Amity has 30% arcane and 20% earthen

This was with a lesser Iconoclast buff, 3 flasks into 1 flask.

This was with roughly 50% iconoclast, 3 flasks.

There were definitely differences in the testing: Ara was used for Ultima (more mag), Fallen Sky Shoes were used for Omniflask (more mag), the amity for omniflask technically gives 10% more damage than the Ultima amity.

But this was... kind of what I had guessed before. Building towards omniflask is very strong and trading ashen pinions for azure pinions gives a lot of extra mag; but does require setup, flask charging, and isn't as big of a finish as WE.

Here are the ultima loadout stats, messed up the original post

[main granite]

I think omniflask is in a good state? From testing, here are my best guesses for current stats:

1 flask = 64% base Ultima power
2 flasks = 1.4x increase (~90% base Ultima)
3 flasks = 1.65x additional increase, 2.31x total (~147% base Ultima)

There's an argument for buffing its base power for pve and ensuring pvp doesn't become a problem

[unreal flume]

Celestial weapon + event gear + event adornments + godforged items + ASC → this is closer to early T11 than early T10 🤔

[lean rampart]

things should improve mechanics, not make them work 😒

[unreal flume]

By the way, it's good to have some numbers for comparison, thanks for the work in providing them.

I'm just thinking that while it looks good with more endgame-aligned gear, Omni-flask probably isn't ideal for early T10 and my feeling is that Fumination 3 is filling the gap left by WE in a better way.

[astral moth]

Been testing trielement spells in towers. I like them quite a bit as a turn 1 blast for early on as a t10 player. They deal very decent dage turn 1, lessening the need for setup.

It seems like hitting a weakness lessens or removes damage penalty from hitting an immunity, which I really appreciate

[worthy grove]

Noob question: where is this omniflask spell

[raven path]

Beta version of the game on base heretic, this is all in testing phase

[worthy grove]

I like the sound of all this then

[idle tendon]

Okay so a few days of playing update.
Level 232 Heretic no Ascention, no Celestial Classes. Only in game element I've not played since the update is Endless Dungeons.

• Still think that my character overall feels weaker.
  -- Some raids I could run in one try now take multiple tries.
  -- High ward enemies such, as Madea Arisen Queen, are a slog to beat if I can beat them at all. Weaved Elements allowed for me to chew through their ward, no flask helps close the gap between Weaved Elements damage and the flasks.

• Loss of mana savings
  -- I didn't note this before because I didn't notice until I switched from Maji Specialization (then back). I can argue either for or against this change.
  --- For mana savings loss: It makes sense to lose mana savings because mana saving worked against the Iconoclast buff.
  --- Against mana savings loss: I'm now using a lot more potions/bigger potions and am more reliant on weapon/sidearm abilities than ever.
  --- Unless I run out of mana potions, I'm indifferent on this being either way.

• Efficacious
  -- Still love it, being any bit more tanky even if it's just during Multi turn spells is nice
  -- I still argue the 'still does damage to immune enemies' would work best with Weave Elements.
  --- Maybe add this to mages that still have Weaved Elements?
  --- I have not found an instance where I would use this immune, but not, damage outside PvP with other Heretics. Spells opponents wouldn't normally be immune to are just better if I don't have reason to hit them with immune type spells.

Then to flasks:

• Still would like to have the option to use preT10 flasks as some still look cool.

• Repetition Flask
  -- Rarely used, and only when I'm entirely out of mana to maximize Iconoclast buff. Then it's onto using sidearm ability slot/basic attack.

• Inflection Flask
  -- Haven't used, but can see it's use cases. The other manaflasks just use up my manaflasks

• Mana Ray Flask
  -- This flask has saved my hide from many high dex enemies. It's damage is lower than my spells, but guaranteed hits make this flask worth while.

• Bloodloss Flask
  -- Used often. Gets Iconoclast buff moving if I feel it'll be a short fight.

-Banishment Flask
-- Situationally used. I think it being situational means it's good where it's at, but I mostly only use it turn one or at 100% charge

• ManaSeep Flask
  -- Never used. This flask just asks too much. Either you build around the mana decay or you use too many potions. If I had a way to remove manaseep from myself, this could be useful, but until then I think it just needs replaced.

[main granite]

100%, this was a test to push it

To compare how good it is vs Ultima. Turns out, 3 flasks is about as good as crit ultima with somewhat similar setups

I don't really have gear from early t10 since my storage didn't get mirrored lol

[left coyote]

I think mana seep could definitely be replaced with something better

[unreal flume]

Opening parentheses here: The beta system needs a lot of improvements to make testing easier, from level/xp selector to stat selector could be great additions and would even encourage more tests

[coarse chasm]

Dual, Tri, and above elemental spells are only filling flasks faster in Beta correct?

[coarse chasm]

Thank you for putting numbers to the in development content. It sounds like will scale pretty well. It also sounds like it will allow for an easy on ramp ultima style play. It sounds like this should bridge the gap from early T10 going into late T10 and keep play style fairly constant. This reduces the learning curve and in my opinion is good design.

[lime leaf]

I am so ready to use spells that’s not ultima (don’t have enough levels yet xd)

[main granite]

The only annoying thing about having another Ultima option is that it still requires a lot of building around

It's not really variety, but it fulfills its purpose. RIP easy meme damage screenshots though

[shut temple]

Tri has higher damage output

Not sure if only in beta the charge rate is faster (might be)

[shut temple]

If you build around omniflask you do get better damage on your other omnimancy spells i guess

[coarse chasm]

I have been trying in the current release (not beta) dual don't charge any different than single element spells (quakestorm 2 verse fey spark 5. I hope quicker charging for multi elements is added to the base class.

[shut temple]

25, 31, 31 for single+dual+omni LIVE
25, 37, 56, 75 for single, dual, tri, omni BETA

Tried with
Fey flame V
Heat lightning 2
Gale Volcanis
Omniblast

[astral moth]

Nope. Dual element and omniblasta(a) fill it about twice as fast

Ah, sorry for the repeat reply

[shut temple]

Tri still hurt from penalty , in case something was worked on

[lusty nimbus]

Editing my previous posts a bit:

I'm now seeing mana-seep's use in Endless on Corvus

So the Flasks I'd be interested to see different options for are:

Base:
-I'm pretty okay with the options here though wouldn't mind Manaseep being swapped with something else. I'd still enjoy seeing Elemental Sigilflask here but it isn't a must-have. Base feels like a solid middle ground mage with just solid options for a lot of content. Omniflask feels excellent here on the beta as well.

Ara:
-Again maybe lose mana seep but I really really like the options here. I don't know what I'd replace it with here. Maybe there is a crazy Ara endless build to discover hahaha. This class feels great pretty much as is IMO and I look forward to having tri elementals to help charge flasks! (Magic Bow Sprite for Ara when? 😁)

Corvus:
-I don't feel like Mana-ray Flask fits here. I'd enjoy seeing it replaced with the AoE Flask myself but open to other options

Overall still very very much having fun.

[lime leaf]

I like this guys brain

[coarse chasm]

Interesting. Is there a method to get it to show up? It takes 8 casts of any spell I have currently with my base heretic to charge a flask for both mana and blood flasks. It doesn't matter if I cast a single element, dual element, or Omniblast.

[coarse chasm]

Your numbers don't match my experience. Through experimentation: Fey Spark V = 12.5 at most - It is taking me 8 casts to fill an empty flask every time. Heat Lightning II - It takes 6 to fill an empty flask (first). Second and third empty flasks takes 5. My guess is regen is 19 or so. Omniblast: It take me 6 casts to fill an empty flask (first), Second and Third both take 6. My guess is regen is 19 or so. So there is some increase by using multi elements, but not nearly as nice as being reported from the beta.

[shut temple]

The numbers are from weakness tho

So fey spark for a normal. hit will fill less that a weakness fey spark

See, fey spark fill 12% but heatlightning fills like 38

[coarse chasm]

Sure, but you can't rely on weakness always being available. Most raids, don't tend to have elemental weaknesses.

[shut temple]

True, but your omni/tri will fill more than your single non-weakness.... I think lol let me double check

[coarse chasm]

That would match my experimentation against a raid boss from a numbers standpoint. And would indicate that hitting a weakness doubles the effective charge rate.

[shut temple]

terra stormtide (resisted) fills 28%

[coarse chasm]

I don't have access to the beta yet, so I can't experiment with that content. I am looking forward to it coming live though.

[shut temple]

i also don't feel use for mana-ray, I've been using Mana-seep more in dungeon hordes than bloodloss, bloodloss i use it for raids tho

[shut temple]

yeah seems the fill rates changed for 3 and 4

which is nice

you can also do some towers and get omniblast, your damage will be super low, but at least i think your fill rate would be somewhat better

[coarse chasm]

I like the sound of that. It will be nice to experiment when it comes out.

[shut temple]

yep also look forward to unlocking Heretic Ara, Sigil with Vestaga/Vesta 3 is super nice

[lusty nimbus]

Roger that! So maybe I just need to keep experimenting with Manaseep!

Or are you also doing hordes on Corvus?

[shut temple]

pure Base or Ara, i don't have good items for corvus, I use Base because of life siphon, and HAra because i like to use my sigils from time to time, but so far, Ara is my goto for Raids, Base for Hordes, I guess Endless would be corvus, and Towers would be any, i Like my chances more on Ara as it can go nuts with vestaga xD

@lusty nimbus i guess it can work with bloodloss again but the 5% iconoclast is nice to keep getting each turn

i think manaseep needs a "something" to make it appealing as bloodloss (y)

granting something extra, like ward regen as stated a bit ago, or higher ward cover rate :V

[dim sluice]

I like mana seep on heretic base. For endless. Corvus will probably take that endless spot though

[shut temple]

Using qatvanga on endless? Or what are you using to be manaless and not going Quickcast ultima :o?

[lean rampart]

There is a proposal to replace the mana loss flask with a mana regen. Considering that there is no passive to reduce mana consumption, a situation arises more often when you need to replenish mana than when there is too much of it. A flask that gives regen, say, for several rounds can smooth out this situation. More expensive spells and two flasks for mana loss are too much. 😒
By the way, you can also give the regen flask a temporary bonus to magic damage or something else.

I would also suggest increasing the charge of flasks from spells and reducing the bonus from items. This will reduce the dependence on equipment and provide easier access to the mechanics in situations where there is no opportunity/desire to implement the conditions for increased efficiency of flask charge.

Ara Vesta 3 charging one flask in 8 casts is too much.

And I still think that flasks should be replaced with scrolls or something else. 😑

[unreal flume]

In the content I've played so far, I've only used scrolls in raids, and since I wanted to save a few turns at the start of the battle and extend the use of the repeating flask at the end of the loop, I was still able to live without the scrolls.

I always reach the end of a dungeon with flasks left over (it's not a dungeon with anguish)... Monuments and Towers with anguish too, there are flasks left over

[astral moth]

I don't think the objective is to keeo the flask bar empty

[lean rampart]

Since everyone is sharing their impressions and experience, here are my two cents.
I ran dungeons and RB and if you don't use obviously weaker spells but with better charging efficiency, the situation looks like this:

RB Hyperion. And not only him.
Heretic Sequencer 42 AL.
By the time of death from a one-move ultima, 2 mana and 1 blood flask are charged. During the battle, you need to replenish mana at least 2 times, without using flasks to lose mana.

Ara Heretic through a sigil flask, without using an ultima (omniblast instead) and a scroll.
The battle lasts twice as long because the flask charging is still quite slow and there is almost no damage in the process.
Perhaps new spells will simplify this issue in terms of collateral damage, but the speed of collecting flasks without a scroll is unlikely to change dramatically.
Unfortunately, I can't say about the charging speed, because I was evaluating the feasibility of flasks on RB and how to use them effectively, but, by my feeling, the ultima charged the flask in about 6 turns.

Conclusion - as I wrote above, it is advisable to increase the efficiency of charging flasks with spells and compensate for this by reducing the bonus from items. Perhaps at low tiers, when the speed of killing RB is not high, this will work as is, but this update is for everyone, not just beginner alchemists.

Horde dungeon through Ara Vesta 3 without scrolls + 5% mana regen shard.
As I already wrote - 8 casts per 1 flask. Somewhere in the middle of the dungeon, I began to periodically spend flasks on killing agile enemies. Not all of them. If they did not die from Ara Vesta and there were no other targets left on the field. This also helped to replenish mana from the shard. By the end of the dungeon, there was a lack of flasks for killing agile enemies because I did not have time to replenish the flasks + they could not always kill the mob because I was in farm equipment.
Conclusion - for the effective use of flasks, the charging speed without scrolls is not enough. Flasks had to be either saved or used simply to let the mana regen work.

Result.
After thinking a little, I would suggest replacing the mana expenditure flask with a mana regen flask and impoverish it with a flask for temporary protection + perhaps give it other temporary bonuses. It also makes sense to make the mana regen effect temporary.
As for the charging speed of flasks from spells, I think that the minimum charging time, without "crutches", should not be longer than 4, maximum 5 spells.

This is a subjective estimate, but I think that if the mechanic is introduced, it should be accessible and work sufficiently, even if a person does not use special equipment and special spells. Things should improve, not make the mechanic work.

This is a somewhat chaotic opus, written through Google Translate, but I hope I was able to convey my thoughts sufficiently.

And yes. I still think that the flasks should be replaced with something else. Magic and alchemy are different after all... 😒

[lean rampart]

Interesting idea.

Perhaps it makes sense to charge flasks from spent mana?

Maybe as a bonus charge from the cost of the spell...
Spent mana faster. Charged the flask for regen. Balance.
And the heretic's robe will play with flasks... 🤔

... That moment when you're alone in a chat and ideas are pouring out of you ... 😌

[unreal flume]

Some numbers about filling flasks

[unreal flume]

You're right, Ara spells and Corvus spells take 8 turns to charge.
And single element spells also take 8 turns if you're not looking at a weakness (hitting weaknesses doubles the charge rate).

I've been running dungeons with an A. Qatvanga, so I have extra flasks because I have no use for them during the dungeon, I just felt like I needed more charge at Ang40+, but if you're running dungeons with Vesta, it makes sense that it would take longer, her charge rate is low and she doesn't take advantage of elemental weaknesses as far as I know

[unreal flume]

It's good to see more people looking at mana regen as something useful in the utility belt.

[lean rampart]

That's why I thought - what if in addition to the vulnerability bonus, we give another bonus? In my opinion, the bonus from the cost of the spell complements the existing mechanics quite well. This is combined with the loss of the reduction in the cost of spells. It will speed up the charging as such and especially on "slow-charging" spells. Strong, 2-3-move spells are also more expensive, so it's two birds with one stone - flask charge + synergy with a passive to reduce damage. Also, for this, ALREADY, there are things in the game - for example, the heretic's robe, and others.

[astral moth]

I am a bit confused by the logic behind arguing for faster charge.
The idea seems to be that if one doesn't use a scroll or ward flask infusion then the charge rate is too slow.
Then that mana regen is needed.
But if you care about these things amd they are fixable with gear, why not use the gear that fixes these issues?

For perspective: do you think it would make sense for arguing for higher collateral chance and damage, ignoring that there are skills and gear that do just that?
How about Avidity? Or pet action rate? Or summon stats?

[chilly timber]

Flasks were really meant to fill the gaps with some content that mages may have been having particular trouble with.

Nuking raids with ultima, etc, wasn’t really one of those gaps, and thus you won’t see much use in flasks there.

[lean rampart]

The point is that even in such a situation there would be at least some benefit from the flasks...

As a sequencer, Flasks are practically useless to me now....

By the way, I have already described my thoughts. Twice.
No means no.
Someone somewhere mentioned that soon the alchemists will be deprived of the ultima anyway. Then I will look at the flasks.

[mossy gust]

I'm having a hard time using manaseep flask when bloodloss exists. I'd really love to see mana regen flask, even if it is for a finite amount of turns based on the charge of the flask.

[left coyote]

Manaseep for mana regen sounds good

[shut temple]

There was also the possibilities of having event gear that get flask charge so I'm not sure why 8 turns sounds bad for a build that is not focused on flask charge/use :v

That's like complaining about ultima not doing damage and you dont have crit amities, ashen pinions and achlys souls xD

A corvus with a scroll fills everything in 3 casts with an omniblast 🤷

Can't really speak about mana , as i dont struggle with it :v even using sky shoes... Sure i will deplete my mana bar, but that's what im looking for in my build if i want sustain, ill put some acorns or just use a mana pot :v

[chilly timber]

I believe you are still looking at this from strictly an endgame ultima perspective, while this was a patch that affects the mage classline as a whole. There are many situations across the 9 tiers that flasks will help with

Where did you read that ultima would be taken away?

[chilly timber]

I was thinking the same

[shut temple]

Odie is there some thought on giving future/existing books some sort of passive regarding flasks?

[chilly timber]

Books?

Id love to do more identity boosting gear for class glasses (less-so Gilga, as I think they currently have the most)

[shut temple]

Yes like i dunno 25% flask power to say something for books at cost of ward

or gear that trigger new flask spells like gods of aaru does

[lean rampart]

I look at this from the perspective of a sequencer who played as a sequencer and plans to play as a sequencer in the future.
I don't know what spells will come next, whether they will crit or charge flasks faster. What items will come next (I have already suggested an option that will involve existing items in the mechanics), whether they will worsen my gameplay or not... It doesn't matter. On RB, there are no really useful flasks for me. Repeat a one-move ultima without mana? How many flasks will I have time to charge by this point? Right now this number is 2. Not very useful, considering that I can just drink a can of mana and kill RB anyway.
I'm not even sure that I'll use the regen flask I suggested on RB, but at least it can be useful to anyone in the dungeon, and if you give it temporary buffs, it will also synergize with Corvus's passive (Which I also don't play. Yes. That's what I am, in every sense, a Heretic.).
And the option I suggested - to speed up the charging of flasks at the expense of the cost of spells is also useful for many, including for low levels, because it will additionally synergize with 2-3-move spells, as more expensive, a passive to reduce damage with a long cast, which is useful on RB at low levels, and will also synergize with items available in the game, to increase the cost of spells.
This will also help to use flasks on bilds that can't/won't be able to/won't want to use scrolls and/or future items more freely and can be compensated by reducing the bonus on scrolls...
Yes, I can't estimate how it is for t7-8-9 and even t10 since I've been t11 for a long time, but I tried to take into account their needs as much as I can.

[chilly timber]

That does reinforce what I said, yeah. Heretic/Sequencer was already one of the best raiders, so they won't be needing flask usage in that area. Having them charge flasks at a faster rate in all content just to have a proc or two in raids wouldn't be ideal

If the raid is currently done before any flasks are charged, then you did not need flasks to defeat that raid

[lean rampart]

But this is not right. If there is a mechanic, it should be used. And not in situations where a crayfish on a mountain whistles. And this is another reason for a regen flask with temporary buffs. It can be useful both for mana control and for self-buff.

No need for a permanent effect. Let there be an incentive to accumulate flask and use.

The cycle.

[chilly timber]

We'll agree to disagree. Personally, I don't think there needs to be the requirement that every one of a class's abilities needs to be used in all content types. That's not true for other classes, and therefore does not need to be true with Flasks

[astral moth]

Not at all related, but I think I will be stealing that expression. "When a crayfish in a mountain whistles" sounds whimsical!

[chilly timber]

appears to be another version of "when pigs fly", I like it

[lean rampart]

This is a old Russian proverb, which essentially means: someday (never). "Когда рак на горе свистнит". 🫡

[lean rampart]

But it can also be used in dungeons. Maybe somewhere else, I can't say for sure since at the moment I only run raids and dungeons. But I think in an endless dungeon such a flask will also be relevant. Especially for Corvus, as an additional opportunity to reapply temporary buffs in case of their loss.

[trail sphinx]

Inflection Flask to replace Mana-Ray on Corvus perhaps?

[main granite]

This, and/or mana regen flask, and/or Omniflask, and/or AoE flask

[raven path]

Mana regen flask on corvus (benefits crit poise, don't need to chug pot and risk losing buff)

[shut temple]

Aren't we falling in the area of all classes having basically the same flask then xD?

Repetition
Inflection
Bloodloss
A Ray
Banishment/Sigil
Manaseep/Manaregen if changed

[fickle lake]

For corvus, what about a flask that reduces health, and grants 1 extra turn? Because we have mystic feather

[shut temple]

So its
3x Rep/Inflection/Bloodloss/Manaseep

The unique:
Banishment vs Sigil

The rays:
Mana for the Ara and base, blood for corvus

No omni for corvus

[main granite]

I'd say Ara doesn't need Omniflask, especially because originally Ara only had manaflasks

[lean rampart]

I think so too. Ara is focused on the sigils, the omniflask will "distract"

[median frost]

The alignment books from the Apollyon event. Thematically works with magues studying to further their power and knowledge. Think I mentioned then ages ago in the Magues rework thread. There might be some pinned summaries over there that mentions them. Potential for new offhand skills for books in the future. Elemental sigils perhaps? Could be an interesting root to answer the Ultima "issue" some folk talk about.

Been loving the new flask mechanic. Still managing the big numbers in raids so loosing WE, although it does sadden me, is not a huge issue. For me at least. You can't please everyone huh?

[main granite]

We should make polls to see what the core flasks should be, the ones that all 3 classes have; and make sure each class has their own unique set of flasks also

[main granite]

From what I remember, Odie said this was what Bloodloss Flask originally did, but it didn't jive well. Maybe if Corvus had a redline boost in addition to feather...

[raven path]

There's 0 chance corvus will get high tenacity so redline might be useless where many people are looking forward to use it (endless)

[main granite]

Core flasks:

• Repetition
• Ray (mana/blood)
• Bloodloss (should this be renamed to clarify that it's a mana burn??)

Debatable core flasks:

• Manaseep (should this be removed from Ara bc Ara has built-in 25% extra mana cost?)
• Inflection (should this be added to Corvus and made into a core flask?)

Other possible changes:

• Omniflask: remove from Ara, who has sigil nukes? Add to Corvus?
• Mana regen flask: Should this be created for Corvus (doesn't want to use pots and lose Crit Poise buffs) and/or Ara (has built-in extra mana cost)?
• Elemental Sigilflask: Should this be added to base Heretic, considering Omniflask will exist?
• Manaray: everyone wants this removed from Corvus since Bloodray exists

[main granite]

Redline would still be a buff of course, and it could be a compromise: corvus gets 50% redline and 50% blueline for example

Reminder that Corvus is the only heretic to lose mana rush, only one to lose omnimancy, and only one to lose efficacious

[raven path]

Hmm, you'll have to ask others for their opinion on that. I'd think most people would want something other than splitting it into such a terrible purple line

[main granite]

I really like the idea of a mana regen flask, especially for corvus

[coarse chasm]

Manaseep would be better as a finite number of turns if it is kept or allow it to be triggered again to remove it. Same with a Regen version.

[unreal flume]

I'm not sure, I didn't quite understand it when I read it, but based on the message below, I think it could be something complicated.

I think we're moving closer to Deity?🤔 I may be very confused by the message

But I agree that manaseep deserves changes, I've been commenting since the beta that giving "Mangue"s a "lost mana regeneration" would be much more advantageous... In T1 one of my headaches was not having mana for anything, I always equipped enchanted weapons and went for basic attack 😂

[unreal flume]

Manaseep seemed like a cool option to me, but as you test it, the feeling doesn't seem legitimate.

Being able to use this flask even without a charge is interesting, but since it's not guaranteed, it becomes a risk for the low survival of the Mage's. Another problem is that it doesn't deactivate itself when there's about 25% of mana left... It eats up every last drop, and I don't trust the staff's abilities enough to play with mana = 0

Getting a mana regeneration would be very nice for Corvus, but also for Ara while he's executing Ang

[unreal flume]

Regeneration of lost Mana please, it would make the balance easier 🤤

[mossy gust]

Yes missing mana instead of maximum mana pls

[coarse chasm]

I am sitting at level 230 with ASC 4. I have been playing since November. I am very much figuring things out as I go. Here are my experiences thus far after playing it daily since release.

Raids - My damage is lower after losing WE and my Raid game play is less interactive. Hoping for the rumored Omniflask to see a fix for that.

Repetition Flask - Struggling to find a good spell to repeat. There is not enough pay off at my current level for my multi turn spells. I pretty much have to run a mana regen amity to keep up with increased mana costs (and avoid losing turns to popping potions). During casts, the regen causes me to have to pop another bloodloss (thankfully it is turn free). What spells are actually worth using here that isn't Ultima or another spell found at level 240+? I am likely months away from those.

Inflection Flask - Used once a long while during setup (raid specific). To extend world raids longer.

Mana-Ray flask - Not used in raids. But not every flask needs to be useable in every content type.

Bloodloss flask - Good for getting into or back into iconoclast range when mana regen Amity takes me out.

Banishment flask - Not that useful. I have mis-clicked on this more often that I have actually cast it intentionally.

Manaseep flask - ... Dont know why I would want it.

Monuments - Flasks have resulted in little to no change. What was working before thanks to 2h Update, is working now. I might try with Anguish but that is going away soon, so might not bother.
Repetition Flask - Not meant for this as far as I can see. Maybe situational for Divine bastion casting enemies like Arisen Medea

Inflection Flask - Used once a long while during setup if 2h isn't enough or to cover when RNG takes a bad turn. Other option is to flee.

Mana-Ray flask - Useful for enemies that evade after being hit. 

Bloodloss flask - occasionally useful to instantly boost damage.

Banishment flask - Rarely useful, but occasionally it helps.

Manaseep flask - ... Dont know why I would want it.

Towers - No change. The enemies scale much faster than monuments. 2h patch doesn't help here much. Due to scaling differences, I tend to turtle first then attack. The dense melee damage is nearly impossible to overcome at a certain point (around floor 12+ for me). My runs normally end around floor 20 when I either get bad RNG, or I simply get blocks at the only door by an enemy I know I couldn't defeat on floor 12. A good tower run for me results in about 5000 - 6000 shards (no death but blocked). It will be a while before I can get the celestial classes.

Repetition Flask - Not meant for this as far as I can see. Maybe situational for bulky enemies, but I don't know. If I live long enough to use this, the enemies are about dead, so why? If want to use it, I haven't charged enough flasks to do so.

Inflection Flask - Used during setup. Ward of Ortanite -> Golem Strength -> Inflection Flask -> Barrier II... Mostly need this against Melee enemies. It normally lasts long enough to allow me to start taking enemies down. My base damage is ~4K to 6k depending on enemies. It is a drop in the bucket compared to the melee sides HP pools. 

Mana-Ray flask - Useful for enemies that evade after being hit. I am very unlikely to take a lot of these enemies out in one hit, given my low damage, unless I get a crit.

Bloodloss flask - Useful for instant boost damage. Seems to fall short in towers though.

Banishment flask - Rarely can be used, but it can be used to reduce incoming damage.

Manaseep flask - ... Dont know why I would want it.

Endless (short as they were ~135) are only a little better 145ish. Hard to ascertain currently, since this is heavily RNG based. One berserk Gilgamesh, berserk Beowulf, or Berserk Realmshifter will can take me out at lvl 75 on bad RNG, but sometimes I get lucky an get to 190? Both extremes are pretty rare.

Repetition Flask - Can be useful, if you can get your big cast off... efficacious please keep me alive. Other flasks, please leave me one free cast!  Problem here is, what is a useful multiturn spell that is worth the casting time in terms of damage and being locked out of any sort of control?

Inflection Flask - Needed to stay alive long enough to get a big cast off to use with Repetition.  That is one flask down that wont be useable with Repetition Flask...

Mana-Ray flask - Useful for enemies that evade after being hit. I am very unlikely to take a lot of problematic enemies out in one hit. So this gets used more frequently in my runs as I get into the 100s...

Bloodloss flask - Useful for getting into iconoclast range. Useful if I have to use an item to some other mechanism to heal in a pinch.

Banishment flask - Basically doesn't exist in endless.

Manaseep flask - ... Dont know why I would want it.

PVP - I don't know. I only do this when I have to to meet quests. It honestly hasn't been a fun experience.

Repetition Flask - Maybe against a Gilgamesh late in the match...

Inflection Flask - unlikely to use it.

Mana-Ray flask - Useful if my first strike on Deities and Realmshifts doesnt take them out.

Bloodloss flask - Probably wont use it, I dont want to run out of mana here.

Banishment flask - Coin flip. This has cost me as many battle against summoners as it has won. Seeing a shift in the meta that basically blocks the efficitivess of this as well as my previous goto of just shoot them in the head first. Things were easier pre 230.  After 230? I dont know, I just don't do enough damage fast enough.

Manaseep flask - ... Dont know why I would want it.

[main granite]

Omniflask is in the beta client atm. As for manaseep, the content you are missing here is horde dungeons, which are particularly relevant with anguish

[coarse chasm]

Ok, I haven't gotten far into Anguish. I was playing it around T9 for a while, but I was told it wasn't worth it for me then so I stopped.

[main granite]

Anguish is easiest before t9 tbh

But you wouldn't get too far

50 anguish is more of a t11 thing

[lusty nimbus]

Manaseep for regen on at least Corvus would be a Godsend lol. I could see it being relevant on Ara at early t10 as well 🤔

Yes please!

[coarse chasm]

How does manaseep, as currently implemented, work with Anguish dungeons?

[lean rampart]

Main idea is give second mechanic to recharge flask - bonus % from spel mana cost. and compensate this by reducing the bonus on scrolls and other future things. Thus, the efficiency of charging flasks from spells will slightly increase while remaining at the same level when using scrolls. This will also allow you to play from increasing the cost of spells. will make expensive multi-turn spells more attractive, which will help implement a passive to reduce damage. and will also make the game less dependent on equipment. Ideally, there should be an improvement for the existing gameplay and the possibility of specialized games through flasks using scrolls and other future things. Of course, all this requires in a rather idealized way, but it seems to me quite an interesting and complex solution. I apologize if again something is unclear. The translator does not always correctly translate what I would like to say. There are also typos... but I hope this helps clarify the basis of my idea.

[lean rampart]

Sorry. Answer from phone and it not attached. ☝️

[main granite]

Manaseep is intended to be a turn-efficient way to set yourself up for high iconoclast bonus, and can be turned off later if desired. I will admit it may be more clunky than I realize, I have to test it at some point

It does work well with the 2h weapon skills, which don't use mana

[main granite]

Anyone have more thoughts on this? Maybe we should try to vote a little to see if these changes are popular

[storm sigil]

This mage identity change just make me feel like we lose more identity. As dumb as it sounds, it might just be because of naming issue, “flask” 😂😂

Just putting it out there

[astral moth]

@coarse chasm - WRT to your tower assessment of flasks and I know this is a huge investment, but try to build towards using Ara Vestaga, or at least Vestala, with Hera Ara. It is an absolute game changer

Even if you (very understandably) don't want to invest in a t9 class unlock, I would still highly encourage you to unlock Hera Ara ASAP. Ara Vesta II with Sigilflask alone makes runs a lot faster and smoother as you effectively get a "skip" button for difficult fights

[shut temple]

i don't see why :v there's no other class that can be a Magechemist :v

[main granite]

I think flasks are just a much less popular theme when it comes to magic

Mage = spells, wands, staves, pointy hats, robes, scrolls, spellbooks. Potions/flasks are an uncommon subtheme

[crisp trout]

Is everyone that is against manaseep or would rather see a mana regen flask happen to be a lower lvl/low AL? I see one of the players requesting it are indeed low. Mana can be a bit of an issue at the lower level/ ALs for heretic, but as you gain more you are going to appreciate mana seep a lot more. Personally, I see it's main use in endless. It allows you to perfectly control your mana and stay blue lined using acorns or amities. While I primarily use bloodloss, I don't see manaseep being horrible even if it's limited content. I'm usually at 9k-11k mana on builds and manaseep can wipe it pretty quick

[main granite]

Which classes do you like it on the most

All 3, or do you think it makes less sense on any of them

[lusty nimbus]

Counterpoint to that - a mana regen Flask would eliminate the need for acorns >:D

Of course that is assuming we know how much it regens

Both?

Both could be fun

[shut temple]

at some point you'll only need 1 acorn to fill 700 mana :v

[crisp trout]

I haven't tried ara at all still so I have no opinion there even though that is likely the one I would choose. I prefer it on base so I can endless mindless with Viper seal and putting efficacious to use. I see a lot of hype around corvus endless but critical poise can be a double edged sword imo. I feel corvus would be more for depth using manaseep and critical poise but too annoying swapping for my liking lol I liked corvus passive a tad more even if there wasn't long lasting temp buffs on crits

[raven path]

Which Heretic has 140,000 mana?

[shut temple]

an AL 140,000 might have UvUr

[main granite]

Do you think corvus should have effiacious? I'd love your input on changes you still want from this patch, since we're definitely getting a second pass on heretic with omniflask and the tri elemental spells

[native karma]

Imo, bloodloss flask can do everything manaseep do but better, faster, i just don't see the reason to use manaseep over bloodloss

Btw, i don't know how it interact with regen MP stuff, is the mana burn happen 1st or is it calc the positive MP regen - negative MP regen and give you the net MP? Or the regen happen 1st then you burn your MP?

[crisp trout]

Honestly, I would love to see efficacious on corvus. A little disappointed it's not on there tbh, but I'm guessing it had to do with it potentially being too strong paired with critical poise? That's my only guess other than just trying to diversify the subclasses

[crisp trout]

I definitely prefer bloodloss in horde dungeons since we're just using despair now (and I can leave some mana for mana rush). This isn't my screenshot, I stole it from @astral moth but as you can see he managed a perfect 220 mana regen for viperseal

[native karma]

Can't we just use 2 bloodloss to 0 MP and then regen 220MP like in the screenshots with some acorns?

[crisp trout]

You could, but I'm guessing it saves some adornment slots. Like some ppl need an amity + acorns while I only needed a 2% mana regen amity to maintain almost a perfect mana regen, but was never able to get it so precise. It does have a niche use and is likely aimed more at the higher ALs. It would be nice to have an extra flask or two to swap out with one that isn't as beneficial. That goes with the toolbelt and situational use of flasks imo. They can be different flask choices than what the other classes have too of course to keep the flask identity

[lean rampart]

Also, it can help recharge flasks then you miss. You still de take some %

[bleak swallow]

I’m using trev staff with oracle and for tower is the fastest way… for horde dungeon seems always work well with crit poise but i don’t know over 30 anguish ( i m upping thr circle).

So, for my playing, the only difference between pre and post identity patch is mana ray or blood ray flask when i find immortal lord or berserk… it really seems like little an improvement.
2h patch was the real improvement

[mossy gust]

It sounds like the tools we were given (MR and BR flasks) are working in that specific content then, tbh. IMO, the patch does seem to be an improvement, even if it is only small improvements across a variety of content. Also, Odie has mentioned that identity and balance are two separate issues, so if something feels underpowered it could still be adjusted in the future.

And speaking of identity, I feel that magic potions/flasks fit right in with our spellcasting witch/warlock theme. It's cool to imagine a witch/warlock crafting potions to be able to harness magic they normally couldn't.

[bleak swallow]

My point was that flask are too much situational, i made the same content pre-identity patch…sometimes i forgot to have flask fully charged because you are doing content also without it and faster.

[lean rampart]

What you describe, brewing potions and so on, is more associated with witchcraft and closer to a witch and a witcher, while a warlock is essentially a magician who uses dark magic/has entered into a contract with dark forces/sold his soul.
If we are talking about powerful potions that can literally stand on par with the strongest magic (repeatflask, sigilflask and future omniflask), then this is already alchemy.

Learning alchemy takes time and resources. Learning magic also takes time. So you're either an alchemist and a weak mage, or a mage and a weak alchemist, or you can do everything but nothing in particular.

[astral moth]

I think not. This because it is always consuming a % of missing mana. It is ye good ole' Zeno Paradox.

"Achilles and the tortoise"

[native karma]

u mean % of current MP? yeah, then blood loss can't get u to 0

but there's other way to spend your MP tho, can't get to 0 but close. And if we talking about endless, there's asteria stance can help u reach 0

[astral moth]

Sure, though Asteria Stance cannot be turned off. It is inconvenient.

That said, I am for replacing Mana Seep

As cool as it was to perfectly get to 100%, I think there are other effects that I would be happy to see in its stead. In Corvus most of all.
With the future addition of Omniflask to Base Hera, it would be cool to see another flask that synergizes well with Crit Poise. Elsewhere I suggested Swordplay in a flask. A small non-crit damaging spell that can give a variety of temporary buffs. Making it non-crit makes it a risk reward proposition to use it repeatedly to get the perfect buffs.

Riffing off of @lean rampart 's idea to have mana seep give a bonus of some sort while in play, what if mana seep game a %chance to proc t.buffs? Then it could be left on every class but Corvus would be a stronger user of it.

All of the above said, I wouldn't consider as a huge problem leaving mana seep as is. It just stays as a much more situational flask than others, ala Banishment Flask.

[unreal flume]

This made it clearer to me. While I was reading, I even leaned a little towards this idea, lol

I confess that while on the one hand this identity gets us back on track with the use of elements, on the other hand, it is actually very restrictive, and forces you to give up good skills that don't have the capacity to fill flasks... Having something to plug this hole would be interesting.

[lean rampart]

In fact, having encountered the repetition flask misses (which is typical, during the entire time of its testing only the flask missed) I also came to the conclusion that this mechanic can also help in the case of misses. Yes, the charge will be extremely small, but it will be there.

[native karma]

It can be turn off freely like aegir

[astral moth]

Ah, I stand corrected then

[chilly timber]

It seems we're beginning to find use for Manaseep as-is? So we likely don't need to change.

I have the following patch releasing shortly to the beta servers. imo, it is already ready to go to live if the community agrees with it:

* Heretic Corvus: Replaced the "Manaseep Flask" with "Inflection Flask"
* Introduced the "Elementalist" Tier 7 Specialization, providing access to the "Weaved Elements" passive
* Introduced the "Grand Elementalist" Tier 9 Specialization, providing access to the "Weaved Elements II" passive
* New multi-element spells: "Infernus Mire", "Tidal Stormflare", "Terra Stormtide", "Gale Volcanis", providing 3 elements each and charging Flasks more effectively
-- These spells were added to the Heretic class
-- "Magic Hammer IV", "Magic Sword IV", "Magic Dagger IV", and "Magic Arrow IV" were moved to the Heretic Corvus celestial class```

[astral moth]

Ah, adding as a spec is clever.

[umbral musk]

other than the passive, are there any changes that Elementalist and Grand Elementalist bring along?

The changes look good

[chilly timber]

they do not, no. i think that is a good tradeoff for getting access to both WE + Flasks

[fickle lake]

I didnt think about that, thats really interesting tbh

10/10

[raven path]

Wait, this means deity and beoH can also use weaved elements soon (maybe even the physical dmg classes? Unless it's spells only)

[shut temple]

were any changes made to WE like if you use dual/tri they don't help for the 8th charge etc.?

also odie, last time i checked tri were penaltied, did you made modification for this version? so i can double check again

[main granite]

Thoughts on giving omniflask to Corvus instead of Ara? Corvus doesn't need manaray since it has bloodray

And yeah, was the immunity penalty fixed for trielemental spells

[chilly timber]

penalties were removed

[vast jasper]

Definitely a really great idea throwing weaved onto a spec! On “mana-ray” i think its a great idea to keep both on corvus, but thats entirely out of my personal experience using Blood-Ray on enemies with Second Chance. I would be interested to see thoughts on that aswell

[shut temple]

if anything for ara i would give up bloodloss or manaseep for blood-ray but i'm fine with the current set for the 3, it would be dumb that the 3 have almost the same flasks and then being angry that they don't have their "uniqueness" amongst them, which was one of the complaints :x

nice (y)

[lusty nimbus]

I do think that on Corvus a mana regen Flask would be very good but I don't have 150+ ALs to make it so 2 Acorns is enough

But since we do have acorns and amities it is a wish more than something I think HCorvus needs

[whole lion]

Would it be beneficial if elementalists had a bonus on multi elemental spells?

Because multi elemental are pretty weak rn (ultima is a problem on its own hehehe)

[chilly timber]

I would want to see the power of Flasks + WE together before introducing more buffs

the new multis have some pretty good damage

[fickle lake]

Good adddition the patch notes channel 😄

[whole lion]

Fair. Im not versed in the arts of hereticcing

[shut temple]

what's the expected behaviour ? , if you cast the same cast it resets i guess, but can you use like omniblast + the other 4 elements separetely and still work?

[shut temple]

i feel the beauty of multi to be in filling flask, sure, they don't do 10m damage, but it's crazy how much flask they fill :v

[main granite]

Before the rework, it would boost the damage but no doublecast

WE was always a bit buggy

[shut temple]

yeah i know :P, wondering if it's still the same

[chilly timber]

yeah, you will won't be able to shortcut it

[shut temple]

@coarse chasm rejoice, you get your beloved WE in form of a spec

[fickle lake]

Inflection flask gives t1 o t2 defenses or resistsnces?

[umbral musk]

t2

[fickle lake]

Omg

[unreal flume]

I'm still going to test the changes, but I have the following thoughts:

• We'll need to change the oracle and then we won't have 2x Amitys (Legendary Amity+ could provide even more buff)
• Prom's Hands receive a reduction in damage output

[shut temple]

give HAra x1.2 or 1.3 mag >:D

i can't break the damage cap UvU

[whole lion]

So it takes 8 turns for the full rotation? 😰
With shortcutting theyd be able to do it in 5 (but they wouldnt be able to use their facction element - im thinking about omniblasta). It would be shorter but not nuts i think 🤔

[chilly timber]

ultima would make it 1 turn

[shut temple]

can you make Weaved Element "Cast based" instead :o? or too much work for this rework?

instead of 8 individual elements, make it 8 casts

with the 8th being dual casted

and repeating the whole process again

or take out the dual, and just give the ramp-up damage

on 8th cast you get max damage ramp-up and you start from 0 again

i think it sounds too much dev work tho....

but at the end, you are "Weaving" elements

[trail sphinx]

I think the whole feel is that you're weaving differing elements together

I could see changing it to "don't use the same element twice in a row"

[coarse chasm]

Thank you. I have T9 today, but Hera Ara is T10 correct? I am working towards it. But grinding is slow for the reasons I listed. How does sigil with vestila or vestaga work?

[lusty nimbus]

Curiosity- is there a way to make Repetition Flask only store an offensive spell?

So say I cast Ultima II then DC fades and I need to Recast DC but once it is up I can then use Repetition for Ultima II?

Or was the decision we would rather it store whatever the last spell was?

[shut temple]

yeah i guess

[trail sphinx]

The spec itself just has the passive, so it should function as before

[shut temple]

there was a thought of "offensive only" but it stayed as "every spell" , so no you cant U2 -> DC -> repeat U2

[main granite]

Mostly to keep it open for nonoffensive spells like divine bastion

We did suggest a way of storing a spell

[median frost]

WE returns 🥲 can't wait to test this!

[unreal flume]

Ok, my first thought when reading #1343998744961745050 message, was that any class could get WE

Then I saw that it wasn't like that when I read the new passive description, but I remembered this dialogue
#1313871347176177804 message, and I thought that I could perform the weaving on other classes, as long as they were using mage equipment...

I think either the passive description needs some change, or the new quests will need more explanation, since I needed to spend orns to test it on DAra and Heretic... New players don't have as many orns to test

[midnight mulch]

Is there a trick to get WE to trigger? I'm on Dara with the new t9 spec and I can't get them to start popping up

either using the 3 element spells or seals

[unreal flume]

Does not work with Omnimancy skills

Only works on classes in the Omnimancy tree (I haven't tested it on all classes in all trees yet)

[midnight mulch]

Weird, it worked when it first popped out. So spec only works for Omni classes?

Or skills?

[unreal flume]

You have to use 8 single element spells to get dual casting

Doesn't work on Deity B/A/U because they are not from the mage tree

[midnight mulch]

When I originally tried, the 2 element ones got the ball rolling.

Now, my latest attempt, nothing got the ball rolling on D.ara - Multi or single element

okay

[unreal flume]

It also shouldn't work on Beo Hydrus, GS and others.

[midnight mulch]

So spec is omni line only then?

[unreal flume]

Only Heretic and its pre-classes

[unreal flume]

Apparently, from the new WE description

[midnight mulch]

Dang it

There it is, I see it noooow

Ty ty

[midnight mulch]

it was fun while it lasted!

[astral moth]

Not seeing the updates yet. I assume it is still rolling out?

[unreal flume]

It's in beta.

But this information does not cancel out the fact that it may still be being sent slowly.

[chilly timber]

beta server patch, so no update necessary

[astral moth]

Ah, my bad. Got it.

[coarse chasm]

WE still has the issue of not completing the weave if multi element spells are used as part of the sequence?

[chilly timber]

yes, that is still intended

[shut temple]

can we make as my last request Ara change, that the sigil stormflask applies the 5 sigils if 100% :x?

or the "missing 4 flasks" i've been using Aquila + Sigil flask and it only applies 3 more

[coarse chasm]

I will have to play it. Still lots of change to account for... A new spec introduces lots of questions. I am lukewarm to this solution currently.

[coarse chasm]

Which spec?

[trail sphinx]

New ones, Elementalist and Grand Elementalist, give Efficacious (I/II)

[shut temple]

Weaved**

[astral moth]

Inflection Flask is awesome in Corvus. Even better if you don't shoit yourself in the foot by using Bloodflask infusion mid run lol

[dim sluice]

There’s a “bug” in PvP that Vestaga hits for 1s. Is it a bug? Looks like one.

And

Blood loss consumes all my mana after first turn. Wasn’t it 80% of current or is it 80% of total?

[storm viper]

I've had the same problem, although it works perfectly fine against the NPCs. I'm guessing it has a terrible M1 because it does the same thing in high Anguish boss hordes.

[dim sluice]

Nah. It was hitting even BoF people for 1s

It was random

[storm viper]

Weird. Hopefully someone has insight on that because it made me look silly a few times against an actual player lol

[dim sluice]

I really hope that is fixed if it’s a bug. Cause that is a very unique style

[chilly timber]

Vestaga is very low pen (sigils only contribute to m2), so it won't be great against high res

[dim sluice]

That solves that.

[trail sphinx]

Something something Vestaga has an M2 of 0 unless it has sigils also, meaning low/no damage

[main granite]

Is omniflask intended to be able to be cast but deal 0 damage without a full flask

I'd much rather it be grayed out without a full flask (mana or blood)

[chilly timber]

Beta client doesn’t have that UI improvement yet, live does

[lean rampart]

Now in the fight with A.Pumpinkless, because of his debuff, the character used a flask for mana loss. And now I lose mana while I'm buffing...
Unpleasant.
Another stone in the garden of the need to remove this flask...

😒

The character also spent other flasks under the debuff...

I'm currently standing under RB, trying to cast Brunhilde's Call, without a single flask, and constantly losing mana...

Laughter through tears. 😑

[crisp trout]

Use the manaseep flask again and it stops the effect...

[lean rampart]

I can't. Not only does the ultima take a loooong time to charge the flasks, but the character continues to spend them while under the debuff. 🤣

This is probably my most "epic" fight... 😆

[crisp trout]

2 ultimas fill up the manaseep flask beyond 25% without any other item speeding up flask usage. All you need is 25% to hit it again after the first time to disable the effect

[lean rampart]

I'm already finished.
5 minutes of buffs, a dozen cans drunk, and five minutes of combat.

It was funny, but I don't want to repeat it again. 🤣

But seriously, I was left without flasks, without buffs and with constantly wasting mana literally from the start of the fight. This is not an experience I want to repeat.

[median frost]

A whole 5mins...

[storm viper]

It did the same after Sigilstorm, so it was odd because damage would just be zero in other scenarios if I didn't have enough M1 for the Dmg multiplier to matter, right? Rather than a bunch of 1s

[lean rampart]

Capricious Brunhilde + constant lack of mana.🤷🏻

[astral moth]

The horror!

[tawny aurora]

Elementalist and Grand Elementalist, give Weaved Elements (I/II), is there any sort of % buff given / thought about for running that spec? Or is the bonus that we have both flasks and WE?

[shut temple]

Ultima charges less anyways :v should've done gloomseal :x

[coarse chasm]

Seems to be 80% of current in the live server content released so far.

[dim sluice]

Then mine was definitely not working like that. I’ll take a video or something today

[coarse chasm]

Are you playing the Beta? It could be a test to see what the affects should be. I personally like 75% to 80% of current max Mana.A

[coarse chasm]

Currently it the bonus of having both. I am not sure the total spell slots you have if you take it, though I would like to know if you try. I tend to play Maji, because I like to have options open to me. I dont have the gear to run other specs currently. But we will see if WE + Flasks is over powered as Odie fears. I don't see it personally. WE is penalized for using multi element spells. The better spells seem to be multi element in nature. If you cast the same elements more than once in a sequence the sequence ends with little pay off. You can't speed it up by using multi elements and still get the double cast. I suppose if you have mana regen + Blood loss you can get your damage up a bit sooner, but that seems small compared to some of the other specs and classes.

[dim sluice]

Yeah. I tried blood loss more. On live. It’s 70%. But it seems there is a bug on live. Unless it was fixed this week.

Ugh. Maybe only on 2 v 2 and 3 v 3?

[idle tendon]

New addition to comments because of the waygate raids.
Confusion really sucks. Flasks are a resource management update and confusion hitting the manaseep flask is rough. Not saying confusion shouldn't be able to hit flasks, just saying confusion can really hurt this way

[left coyote]

what are people using manaseep for?

[chilly timber]

keeping blueline with offhand aoe

[main granite]

Can we make Omniflask usable with a single bloodflask

And could we rename Bloodloss to Manaloss 😂

[raven path]

No hope for us non mage mains

This is the first ever spec that is locked to a single class line (usability wise), maybe we'll see more later?

[shut temple]

it's a manaflask spell, the bloodflask and 2nd manaflask are "boosts"

[main granite]

Yeah but it's also a mixed flask, could be neat to have that flexibility

[shut temple]

i disagree but that's me :x

[unreal flume]

The precedent was set by adding it in beta, but I think it could be an interesting change to give even more individuality if explored well.

And maybe specialization-locked equipment will come 😯

[raven path]

Hopefully we'll see some interesting stuff for other classes in the future as well

But that discussion is to be had later, nf needs to work on Heretic stuff first

[unreal flume]

Yep, I agree

[lusty nimbus]

I mean does anyone other than Summoners use Benefactor??

[raven path]

@minor spade sometimes

But that can at least work on other classes in a Janky way, this has 0 interaction with other classes

[astral moth]

That is a technicality in the strict sense of the word

[lusty nimbus]

I mean I suppose it could be changed to just not work with classes with Unstable Omnimancy rather than those of the Omnimancy line but 🤷‍♂️

[main granite]

"Spells" are equivalent to skills

So weaved elements could be done by melee classes using melee skills without this restriction

Us mages can use melee skills to trigger weaved elements too

[lusty nimbus]

I think the worry is Deity and maybe Beo making use of it

[main granite]

Maybe, but without restricting the spec every class would have the ability to weave for millions

[astral moth]

I would laugh so hard if other classes were given it, were happy using it, and then the hera community went "hey, that's my toy!"

[shut temple]

because towerfall doesn't already :v

[main granite]

Not as a t9 spec

[astral moth]

To be fair - Omni Antlia is plenty capable of hitting for damage cap XD (at level 250 with t10 gear)

[minor spade]

Why on earth there is a spec that has 0 use for other classes

Specs should not be for 1 class only.

[chilly timber]

Benefactor? Tamer? Sequencer? While the restriction isn’t as prohibitive, it’s effectively the same

[minor spade]

I mean tamer has synergy for other classes as extra act%, pet stats & bb1.

Benefactor has synergy with summoner pets and any class can use those.( not gs tho)

Sequencer just requires 2x staffs to work.

This new spec works only on omnimancy passive. And only heretic line has it.

It could be something like its 50% less effective on non omnimancy class or smthing like that

But imo it should not be like you have to be heretic to use the spec

I joined orna bc it had so many options and build variety. But if the game keeps going towards that i think it loses build variety.

[waxen sinew]

Tamer used to get decent non-beo usage when follower-act was a lot harder to come by.
Sequencer still gets lots of usage across all the magical classes (beo, deity, heretic, gs).

Benefactor was/is far too constrained to one class, with only summoner-followers existing as a non-summoner way to use it. Not sure these are design highlights to follow compared to other specs that are more widely used. 😅

[lean rampart]

Theoretically, it is possible to make a restriction on working only with spells of one element.
This will both limit and expand the range of the specialty.

[chilly timber]

imo, there are two options:

1. limit it to mages, as it is a very potent passive and DAra, for instance, would be insane with it

2. restrict it’s power/use, so that it isn’t an optimal choice for other classes

Same outcome, different presentation. I’m fine with either if the community wants it, but imo it’s likely more work with worth

[minor spade]

I would go with 2 bc not always we want to go the most optimal play

Ehm ive been eos replica main for a year and that is not optimal

[waxen sinew]

I didn't think it was a radical suggestion, but it would be nice if every spec "worked" on every class. That there is some world where a player might want to use any spec, regardless of the class they're using, so that it's a full multiplication of the two vectors for total variety. (Alongside follower, gear, and skill choices.)

Using this spec as a lever to make one caster class better than another (heretic o/a/c vs. dara) implies that there is a class imbalance that should be addressed with class changes alone.

Conceptually it's a damage spec not unlike sequencer, and sequencer is already used on any caster that wants it. Giving WE (in some form) to ~anyone should be a damage effect that is within the scope of a single spec (compare against zerks, sequencer, oracle), and heretic gets additional benefit from flask charge rate.

[chilly timber]

I think it’s okay to concerned about combination of effects - it’s less so about balance landscape, more so about passive interaction.

Heretic doesn’t get Apex, which will interact with Weaved. Sequencer, for instance, doesn’t have the same power boost to Apex

[lusty nimbus]

Hot take: Weaved Elements is an older passive the allows for inherently unbalanced shenanigans and maybe should just be removed from the game 😅😅

I thought it was said when it released that I was a temporary band aid not a permanent passive

But I also don't mind specs that are more less class locked 🤷‍♂️

Would there be a world where "can't be used by classes with unstable omnimancy" or "can't be used by classes with gear flexibility" were plausible as a potential middle ground??

[chilly timber]

Im okay with that take, too, but imo keeping it on T6 Spellweaver is just as good

[waxen sinew]

"Class-locked specs" seems like what celestials should be doing.
That, reiterating, every spec should see "some" use/make some sense to use on every class.

That being said: we have had class-locked gear since forever, and class-locked gear and adorns (in the form of +avidity/+cd/+apex/+bond) for a while now too.

[minor spade]

I dont mind the gear tho. But specs are where i would draw the line

Specs add variety and they add possibility to play your way.

[storm viper]

Avidity potentially allowing RS to set up a full Weave while you can only sit there and watch is not something I'd like to experience 😅

All I can think of at the moment is to put some skills/spells on the Elementalists that other classes could find useful but keep WE restricted to Omnimancy/Path of the Mage, maybe?

Or...add a few other "this classline only" specs but that's probably going to cause a larger issue.

[lean rampart]

Do physical classes have enough slots for 8 spells + buffs and everything else? 🤔

essentially, the requirement to use all elements in a row is a limitation in itself for non-magical classes.

[storm viper]

Not a concern for Deity but yeah, that might be an issue for RS & Gilga.

[lean rampart]

Exclude multi-elemental spells and elemental attacks from mechanics and all matters.

[crisp trout]

This is why it's restricted

[lean rampart]

In the future, by the way, it will be possible to create a specialty for physicists. Elemental warrior or something like that.
In theory, it is even possible to make a single-element variant where the boost is given not for a sequence of different elements, but for a fractional element.
But these are just thoughts.

[cyan geyser]

why is that bad?

[uncut shoal]

0 AL and 100% cd chance..
1.4m dmg, 60% cd dmg..

Only good with raid and dmg flex in cactus, I guess..

[median frost]

Take WE and cut it in half? 4 elements, half the ramp up, half the power but still double casts?

[storm viper]

T7 Elementalist could be unrestricted but keep the limitation on T9 Grand Elementalist, maybe?

The difference is Weaved I vs Weaved II, so that would technically include Ovlin's proposal as well.

Although I'm perfectly fine with the spec as-is. It seems to be an issue that could snowball beyond the scope of our rework, though.

[astral moth]

Do other classes need the early raiding help that WE provides? Else, why is this being discussed?

I think I am seeing some theorycrafting for t10/11 raiding here, which is probably a bad sign

[lean rampart]

coz? - #1343998744961745050 message

[storm viper]

It might need to happen in a different thread, but discussion on the matter is a certainty once the Elementalist goes live, based on the input here so far.

[mossy gust]

Weaving the 4 basic elements could be cool 👀

[unreal flume]

Mage Rework ❌
Specialization Discussion ✅

We are getting lost in this topic 🫠

[waxen sinew]

A mage-only spec was added as part of the mage rework. That is being discussed.

[unreal flume]

It doesn't convince me that we are not growing apart

[tawny aurora]

mayhaps add 2 skill slots to WE spec hmmmm?

[unreal flume]

This should be addressed separately, especially since the Omni-flask was the choice to solve the problem we were having with the damage from new Heretics.

[lean rampart]

and spells of all elements, to be sure. 😆

[shut temple]

I don't see the potential for other clases to use it, so idc if its omni only

[tawny aurora]

with the new spec i’m 1 skill slot off of all 8 elements

[main granite]

Including your weapon enchantment?

Or possibly an offhand skill

[median frost]

WE1 4 elements for lower tiers - WE2 8 elements Omnimancer. Give Heretic WE1

[tawny aurora]

would hitting a twin attack with a fire enchant proc WE?

[main granite]

Yes

80% sure. A simple attack would anyway

[tawny aurora]

interesting, I never knew that since both my weapons are element less

[main granite]

You could do a 2h weapon with an elemental skill, like Envy for example

That's arcane, and then you have the weapon's enchantment itself

I'd bet that's 2 elements right there just from your weapon

I could be wrong and twin blast is elementless always

[tawny aurora]

I have a AF Macha Pillar and A Imagination that are pretty nicely set up. So i would assume i just enchant those to one of the elements

[main granite]

Give it a try in the beta

But we're talking about non-mage classes abusing WE

[tawny aurora]

oh yeah i know but this is also great info : )

[tawny aurora]

double enchant, twin blast does not proc weapon enchant but simple attacking does.

[lean rampart]

My opinion is that the number of required spell slots in itself limits the use of the specialty by non-magical classes. If you further limit the mechanics to spells with only one element, excluding elemental attacks, then this is already enough. If desired/necessary, you can add specialties spells with "missing" elements and/or balance the number of slots.

This way we will simultaneously limit the specialty for physical classes, due to the small number of slots, and not lock it into one class.

[astral moth]

Well put. This is the point I tried (and failed) to make

[storm viper]

Deity isn't restricted by any of that, though.

[lean rampart]

Personally, I don't see a problem with this, especially since they have the best (in my opinion) spells for the spec anyway. But if we don't want to let the specialty go beyond the class, then there's nothing to discuss.

Personally, I see Elementalist as a good foundation for future specialties. #1343998744961745050 message

[storm viper]

I'm just pointing out that your solution was not an issue for Deity. Given this was a mage identity patch, having them run amok with our erstwhile abilities... Doesn't feel good, to say the least.

Class specific specs would have to continue beyond Elementalist, I think, because the idea of it already seems unsavory to some players. Other classes would need/want that as well. I don't personally mind it but this game isn't designed solely for my preferences.

[lean rampart]

I see the problem in that on the one hand mages want to keep this ability, on the other hand a completely exclusive specialization does not correspond to the spirit of the game.

Personally, any option will suit me, but if we are "letting the genie out of the bottle" then it makes sense to make the result closer to the existing criteria - to make the specialty a little more accessible, but not for everyone.

I think my option is quite limiting for other classes, I would call it a Solomon's decision.

[lime leaf]

Split the baby in half

V:

[lean rampart]

yes.
half - problems with the number of slots
half - a working system
and the need to use spells as a cherry on the cake

😌

and yes - no official restrictions on use 😏

[raven path]

#1343998744961745050 message I really did make this thread de-rail off topic

[shut temple]

So anyone can update me on whats happening? Can i use my tri-ele yet :v?

[chilly timber]

i think i'd like to release Omniflask and the tri-elements (and Corvus tweak)

The Weaved element spec can wait until we see where we're at with Omni

[shut temple]

I think i see more use in omniflask than WE but it has been so long that i was a early heretic that I'm not sure unu

[shut temple]

Neat looking forward to ir

[astral moth]

I agree. Especially looking at the storm the specs whipped up here.

[main granite]

I'm fine with losing WE outside of the specific classes we have. Omniflask was intended to fill that void

[coarse chasm]

I agree with being ok with losing WE, despite the fact that I enjoyed it for a little while. New toys are coming though.

[minor spade]

Its not that bad. It still reguires quite long setup.

[main granite]

Release the Flasken

[chilly timber]

today's notes, going out shortly:

* Heretic Corvus: Replaced the "Manaseep Flask" with "Inflection Flask"
* New multi-element spells: "Infernus Mire", "Tidal Stormflare", "Terra Stormtide", "Gale Volcanis", providing 3 elements each and charging Flasks more effectively
-- These spells were added to the Heretic class
-- "Magic Hammer IV", "Magic Sword IV", "Magic Dagger IV", and "Magic Arrow IV" were moved to the Heretic Corvus celestial class
* Slightly decreased the maximum celestial Sigils that the Sigil Stormflask will give```

[shut temple]

Whats the current behavior of sigil stormflask now?

[chilly timber]

a full charge gives all sigils to all opponents

[shut temple]

Oh i meant the today's notes

Before patch it only gave 4 of 5 tho

[chilly timber]

oh, it'll give 2-3 to all opponents

[shut temple]

i see, does it works the same as current (not today's) where if you have like aquila it'll only give 3 more instead of the 4 rest?

[lyric hazel]

Yikes, will see how stormflask does after but potentially losing half the sigils feels like a huge nerf. And based on how I read Ara vestagas description it will not really perform without at least 3 sigils?

[shut temple]

i guess you'll need 2 flasks to deal the 5 sigils, we will need to test this thoroughfully tho

[umbral musk]

yikes

i can accept the nerf if it reduced to 3 sigil

[lyric hazel]

So two full flasks to land enough sigils for an effective vestaga

[umbral musk]

but 2-3

[lyric hazel]

I guess this is to cut down on tower bombing

[umbral musk]

hmm

[chilly timber]

2-3 average: it's done so with RNG, so 4 is still possible

[worn wolf]

~~If we pre apply sigils will the flask attempt to apply the same ones? ~~ guess not

[lyric hazel]

I never saw all 5 land previously

[chilly timber]

we're seeing some undenibly OP stuff, so we'll definitely need to do something

[lyric hazel]

It was always 4

[fluid sky]

Btw what was the reason for the sigil nerf? Too much 1 turn damage?

[worn wolf]

I've never seen 5 sigils personally

[shut temple]

with 2 flasks you get 5 sigils

but no matter what you have set you won't get 5 sigils

[lyric hazel]

If you can layer flasks for more sigils that doesn't feel quite as bad

[shut temple]

like having draco and aquila and then flask will only give you 2 more

[fluid sky]

If you need multiple flasks to get all sigils it was fine imo, you still have to charge the flask to use them

[umbral musk]

can i presume that on the 2nd time, sigil flask is used. It will apply the sigil we are missing? or will it overlap?

[lyric hazel]

Still a nerf but depending on how tri element does with flask economy it may still be manageable

Getting on a plane, will fiddle with it later on

[worn wolf]

Based on Odie 2nd last message its RNG. No knock out list of sigils

[umbral musk]

so there is a chance we get screwed by rng

well.. how abt 2 mana flask for the original pre nerf sigil flask?

just some random idea

[worn wolf]

I wanna doomer post about this one but I'll just hold off I guess

[unreal flume]

Using 2 flasks in a row should give the missing sigils like it did before?

[shut temple]

i think it was bugged and odie didn't know

because he said it should've applied all sigils... so 5 :v

[onyx anvil]

Sigilstorm op? Nhaa they weak..make them aply -5% res per sigil

[trail sphinx]

The combo of Sigilflask + Ara Vestaga for easy and quick massive damage was definitely a little overpowered, I'll have to see if it's a nerf that still makes the skill viable

[worn wolf]

As low AL I had tower waves that survived 4 sigil vestaga hits as low as floor 20

[trail sphinx]

I will say - doing damage with 0 sigils on Vestaga is still possible, so it leads me to believe the "3" threshold is arbitrary? Maybe

[storm viper]

Still have to fill the flasks, though. I've been killed enough times while raiding and in PvP for taking the risk with Ward Flask Infusion... Felt like a fine trade, to me.

[trail sphinx]

Yeah, mainly a towers thing methinks

[storm viper]

Glass cannon, and all.

[main granite]

That's an infusion risk, not a flask risk

[storm viper]

Not even going to ask on that one

[trail sphinx]

I think a better way to nerf it would be to nerf the boost given to Vestaga, maybe?

[onyx anvil]

Agree

[umbral musk]

Agree

[unreal flume]

I was missing my enemies a lot of times, I think I was balanced 😂

[onyx anvil]

Heretic ara with ward flask is imo the best lazy raid class

[main granite]

Ward flask infusion is risky. Charging flasks is not

[worn wolf]

If I hit sigil flask and only get 2 I'm just not hitting it again lmao

[trail sphinx]

Vestaga seems to be the main concern wrt Sigilflask so I think focusing that instead of sigil-giving as a whole might be the better step

[onyx anvil]

Ride or die. I dont give a shi

[lyric hazel]

Yeah, the prior issue with sigil play was access to the sigils above all else

The skills were neat you just couldn't get them to apply and stay

[shut temple]

yes i rather have vestaga getting re-balanced than sigil flask getting this nerf

[trail sphinx]

unfortunately I don't have an updated mirror to try it in beta yet so I can't judge the feel of towers before vs after

[shut temple]

or make them stay longer, or not get consumed immediately

[lyric hazel]

I just tried it a moment ago and the 4 sigils on all still happened so I don't know if it's even hit yet

[shut temple]

the update seems that it will be going directly to live

[lyric hazel]

Oh?

[shut temple]

the patch notes have the tri and omni and those are already in beta

[main granite]

Hotfix nerf already

Quick, climb as many 50f towers as you can

[trail sphinx]

I'll at least see if we can get some Odie response on this discussion before the patch

[worn wolf]

Right in the middle of towers event. I don't even have a 2nd cele class or weapon Odie have mercy

[onyx anvil]

Its ok. I ll find another way to make heretic look broken and get us nerfed again

[trail sphinx]

Vestaga boost per sigil: 1 --> 0.6 perhaps? Sort of mimics the 4 -> 2.5 average for sigil change

[main granite]

Honestly I didn't even play with Vestaga much. It having low m1 wasn't enough to keep it in check at high tower floors?

[trail sphinx]

This was a NUKE for even slightly high AL, free win button for low/no anguish

I was repeatedly killing everything (that I hit, of courae )

[main granite]

So YOU got it nerfed

😂

[onyx anvil]

I think sigil nerf is ok but we should have some sort of sigil buff gear

[main granite]

How did vestaga perform in anguish hordes

[trail sphinx]

imo, Vestaga and Flasks are too slow of a flask gain to be reliable there - didn't actually try it though

[lyric hazel]

I was using it in anguish towers, I will say that the vestaga bombs were powerful for sure but don't have super high penetration

At Ang0 I agree with Konq that it was an encounter delete button

[trail sphinx]

but I was repeatedly hitting even floor 49 mobs for 500k+ each at sigilspam

[main granite]

Yeah that's kinda what I imagined. Good for low res mobs, weak at higher anguish/towers

[trail sphinx]

sometimes much higher on turn 1.5

[lyric hazel]

I did not play with it at Ang0 to see huge numbers

[trail sphinx]

Most of these just have T. Mag and Mag as starting buffs, some also T. All

and I'm AL68, what some consider to be a little middling

[lyric hazel]

I'm pretty high AL so for me to say the penetration wasn't there should be an indication

[trail sphinx]

imo - it should still hold its place as a nuke option, but not as dominant

[lyric hazel]

I mean

[main granite]

I feel like AL68 shouldn't have issues with 0 ang towers regardless

[trail sphinx]

I did indeed not struggle with just AV4

[lyric hazel]

I think I'd even be okay with 2 flasks consumed for the full effect

[trail sphinx]

but it was literally a free win

not struggling =/= free wins imo

[chilly timber]

per discussion with Konq, we'll go with a reduction in Vestaga damage instead right now

[onyx anvil]

Awsome

[fluid sky]

On another note, can we finally get quick access to flask just like spells? Its annoying to have to open another menu every time

[main granite]

UI nightmare

Unless it shared quick access with spells

[trail sphinx]

if it shared quick access that'd be a happy middle ground but I doubt that's a quick implementation

[onyx anvil]

I actually prefer flasks to not be quick acess

[fluid sky]

Maybe not quick but would be very welcome if possible

[main granite]

I'm ok without it since flasks aren't always available due to charge, but I could see it being useful

[shut temple]

yeah same

[fluid sky]

When i gave to use repetition 4 time in a row its pretty annoying, same when using flask+vestaga on multiple floors in tower

[umbral musk]

thats good to hear, would you share the number on the reduction?

[trail sphinx]

My guess is somewhere around the DW number (1 --> 0.65, either 0.6 or 0.7 or 0.75)

Now's a better time to ask as well - does Vestaga get a raw damage boost at specifically 3+ sigils?

[chilly timber]

i reduced the m2 multiplier by 1.5 when >=4 sigils were at play

[onyx anvil]

What was the multiplier before?

[trail sphinx]

So about a -33%, for those interested

[shut temple]

if the damage went from op to weak i think that then 5 sigils should actually apply , so take that bug out of our hearts :v

[trail sphinx]

-33% to the BOOST*, you will hopefully not see a -33% to damage

[onyx anvil]

Fair enough

Heretic remains the best lazy raider

[trail sphinx]

depending on the initial M2 my guess is it'll be roughly 25-30% damage reduction

but a good shout that 5 sigils will still do a nuke if wanted!

I think that's a reasonable middle ground, since that'll take more than 1 enemy turn to setup

[umbral musk]

I think the reduction is fair

[shut temple]

i don't deal breaking damage, but i'm low level so it's fine

low AL*

[main granite]

Is getting 4 sigils instead of 5 intended or not

[trail sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/problem-solved-charlie-wilson-tyler-perrys-young-dylan-fixed-it-no-more-problems-gif-22611761

[trail sphinx]

Methinks intended? Should be now if it wasn't, so it takes an extra turn to apply 5 sigils

[main granite]

But if you apply a sigil first and then use the flask, you still only get 4 total

[trail sphinx]

did you apply the one it doesn't give?

[shut temple]

#1343998744961745050 message seems like it should've applied the 5 with full flasks, but it only applies 4, and if you have like 1,2 set already, it will apply 3-2 more only

[trail sphinx]

Maybe the order of operations should be the opposite

Sigilflask -> last sigil, enemy moves and then you nuke

[shut temple]

then you get no sigils due to the time the short sigils last

so you lose like 1 or 2

[main granite]

And also, why

[shut temple]

i tried aquila/draco/crux/carina/Lyra -> flask , and it always apply 3 more

so you actually lose by applying a sigil -> flask

i also tried aquila+carina which are the longest and flask and it only applies 2 more

the only way i've gotten 5 is by using 2 flasks in a row

so flask+flask

if i try flask+missing sigil, at least 1 goes away xD

[trail sphinx]

good on the folks here for being vigilant about what wasn't working for them

[coarse chasm]

I like the charge on the tri elementals....

[lyric hazel]

I do also, the adjustment to vestaga definitely hit hard though, at least at anguish:

[lusty nimbus]

Probably intended for Anguish at least since its m1 is so low.

[raven path]

How is vestala vs current vestaga in raid scenarios?

[lusty nimbus]

Yeah you can definitely feel the damage amplification nerf in raiding o.o

But sounds like it wasn't intended to be quite so good haha

I am still able to get 4m hits with the sigils on Vestaga albeit that is with Mag 1/2, DC, GM and 80% iconoclast.

If you add in berserks and such it should still be plenty of damage for the sniper raiding style

(For anyone who needs the 10m of Beo for instance)

Added zerk 1 and zerk 3 and Snotra and hit Morri for 9m with Vestaga 4 Sigils and then for 11m with AV4 on 4 Sigils 🤔 makes me curious how much the m1 boost of Banshee gear/Macha pillars will matter

Also Bloodloss while on Maji spec is wonderful.

[shut temple]

i think Vestaga being the "AoE but not too strong" and Vesta 3 and 4 being the ST stronger, is good

[raven path]

4 is a worse ST I think

[shut temple]

yeah 3 is better ST but less enemies, 4 is worse ST but more enemies

they both deal nice damage tho

[raven path]

4 is same as st with number of enemies but less dmg

[shut temple]

@raven path - V3 deals 2 opp but stronger, V4 deals up to 3 opp but weaker (also less crit)

[raven path]

Yeah, AV3 is good. But imo AV4 is still overshadowed pure damage wise by ST

[shut temple]

yeah, maybe AV3 has more usage than AV4

[astral moth]

Been slowly shifting over to using AV3 myself, so I concurr. It is nice however to have the option to use AV4 when its damage is enough

[worn wolf]

Was Omni flask intended to be accessible on HAra?

[worthy grove]

Question: this is still on the bet server correct?

[lusty nimbus]

Yeah it was on beta and no reason not to I guess

[unreal flume]

The last changes were for live

[worthy grove]

The change in spells and the changing in location of certain spells to who what specialty class or heretics is now alive?

And I’m talking about the ones that Odie mentioned at 8:32 CST

In this channel

[storm viper]

Yes, they are live. Base Heretic has the Tri-elemental spells and Horvus has Magic Arrow, etc IV.

You might need to swap to base Heretic to learn the new spells if you haven't already.

[coarse chasm]

So with a bit of past testing. I mostly like the changes, especially the new spells.

I am currently sitting at 231 and only have access to base Hera.

New flask charging mechanics are nice. Gives me a good reason to use more than the fey spells. They have been helpful in towers and raid.

I don't think Omniflask quite fills the gap left by WE + fey spells. Damage isn't anywhere close. (About 100k (3 flask)) After 2 turns. It is nice to have the option, but feels a bot weak. Omniflask doesn't feel like a crescendo or an exclamation point. Not a complaint just a note on the feeling. I am working on a analysis to try to put some numbers to the feeling.

[storm viper]

I haven't tested it much but it seems like you would need to build for it like Ultima, meaning it won't look like much unless you stack up elemental damage bonuses.

Which might actually be harder to do for Omniflask if it's only the 4 primary elements (not certain about that though).

[shut temple]

remember that you might need to rework your build, what before was strong was the idea of critical hitting, now it should be more focused in elemental damage

[shut temple]

could be, but there's also the apo X weapons which MIGHT be a nice go-to

unfortunately it's event weapon

[coarse chasm]

What do you mean elemental damage bonuses? This is more education for me. I am playing it like I was with WE. I didn't do anything specific to boost specific element damage.

[storm viper]

I think you're correct about that but it's not very accessible haha

Nothing like Bulwark or Achlys Souls for the 4 primaries, either.

[shut temple]

achlys is event as well iirc

[storm viper]

The best example would be an Amity that increases X damage type by Y amount.

[shut temple]

tri-eles and omni do not crit, so you need items that "increase fire damage" to say an example

[coarse chasm]

Omniflask is all elements (8)

[storm viper]

Oh! That's good then. So you'll get a nice bonus from Achlys Soul adorns (currently available, +2% dark & holy damage, each) and the Bulwark armor from Nidhogg (+20% dragon damage)

[shut temple]

(y) also you won't need to build around crit

which uses like ashen pinions

so that's good also

[coarse chasm]

Okay. Fair points all.

[storm viper]

I was toying with Anubis in BoF and noticed his BB1 boosts the 4 primaries' damage by 5%... Not sure if there's any real potential there, though.

But he applies elemental sigils as well 🤷🏾‍♂️

[shut temple]

maybe use Lotan as a pet

[coarse chasm]

I still don't quite know what I don't know... I will and I am updating my play style. Just don't know what my options are either....

What is the consequence of elemental sigils?

[lusty nimbus]

Elemental sigils will amplify damage of the element - most prominently boosting the omnimancy and ultima like spells

[storm viper]

We don't have direct access to them, only through followers. They increase the damage of the corresponding element on the afflicted target.

[lusty nimbus]

I can vouch for Anubis's boost being solid

[shut temple]

elemental sigil are a debuff that amplifies damage to those enemies, by 20% iirc by the element they are "sigiled"

[lusty nimbus]

I am using it with amities stacked to some decent effect at the moment

[shut temple]

there's also something called Elemental BLIGHT, that increases by 50%, Lotan (dragon event) and i think Ymir apply them

but ymir blight rate is so bad :v that it doesn't count

[storm viper]

I believe all of the dragons have at least 1 elemental blight with Ymir using Prismablight.

There's also (Arisen) Glashtyn with Dark Sigil; Smallest spell list I've seen for a follower with a sigil/blight.

Steward Llamrai gives +20% Holy damage via BB1 but that's definitely not as accessible as others.

[coarse chasm]

Thank you for the suggestions to test with.

[storm viper]

All of the above are event-locked though, but yeah; Give them a try if you happen to have any.

[coarse chasm]

I like collecting pets, so it is a matter of time.

[tawny aurora]

it may not be Weaved Elements but the omniflasks and tri element skills feel pretty good!

[jagged sage]

It's possible I missed something in the release notes, but how do we get the manaflask spells?

[main granite]

They are not spells, they are abilities with their own menu

Unless you mean the new tri-elemental spells. If that's the case, swap off and back onto Heretic

[astral moth]

It is all 8 elements

Woops. Had already been clarified. Sorry for the ping

[idle tendon]

Another comment. Repetition flask has to be my favorite flask. However in dungeons I find myself constantly wasting filled flasks trying to use Repetition flask because I went up a floor. Is it intended to not pull the last spell from the last floor in a dungeon? Is there a way we can make Repetition flask work between dungeon floors?

[astral moth]

The description does say (paraphrasing) that it repeats the last spell cast in this battle. It sounds like it is intended.

[coarse chasm]

I agree. While i hoped to love Omniflask, I think its thunder was stolen a bit by the Tri elemental spells so far for me. I am sure Omni will grow on me as I align my build to take advantage of it. I think Omniflask lost a bit by being 2 turns & 3 flasks, especially since it can't crit. It doesn't really stand out among options with my current setup. Its damage per turn is roughly the same as a few other spells, I just can't use it as freely as those spells. I will give it time, seems pretty ok without being built around it.

[tawny aurora]

my tri element has a higher tooltip then ultima but the omni flask is a little less then the tri element which is kinda either or but was dealing consistent 300-600k tics

it’s not horrible. hopefully will get better over time!

[coarse chasm]

What level are you currently?

[raven path]

He is level 247

[tawny aurora]

OKAY woah

[tawny aurora]

yes 247, but with WE i was easily doing 20mil turns which was nice

[lean rampart]

apo X do +25 for 1 element and -50% to all another so no, he not good for omnimancy

[native karma]

Apoll X weapons give +25% faction dmg and -50% for secondary elements. And omnimancy spells don't have any secondary elements so it's still great, just not good for Ultima and omniflask

[lean rampart]

I meant spells with multiple elements, like the new three elemental ones, or do they count as one - faction? Never heard of that.

[native karma]

i meant it too, 3/4 basic elements? Good chance it include your faction

[lean rampart]

So there won't be -50% for the other two elements, only +25%? But on the ultima and flask there will be -50%? 🤔

[native karma]

-50% is for advance elements like holy, dark, dragon, arcane
3 elements omnimancy don't have those

[lean rampart]

Indeed. I checked now and there are only "additional" elements. Apparently some update that I missed because I clearly remember that during the first event there were other elements. Then yes. A good option. +25% from weapons, up to two +30% from fragments.

If only the new spells could crit... it would be awesome

[native karma]

And u can dual wield weapons so that is 2 +25%

[lean rampart]

If this was changed too. There dual wield modifier of 0.75 or so.

But need to see if it works for this bonus, because it works for some bonuses and not for others.

[lean rampart]

Also, it might be more beneficial, if we focus on new spells, to take a scroll to maximize the bonus to flask charge speed + survivability due to a larger ward.

[storm viper]

Bloodflask Infusion is learned by Nekromancer and Manaflask Infusion is learned by Omnimancer.

Swap to those classes to learn the spells that were added.

[shut temple]

Apo X helps all the Factions, so you'll get +25% damage on fire, earth, thunder and water , which are the new tri-elemental, but yeah your omniflask will hurt

[trail sphinx]

It's only on your own faction, not all 4 factions

[raven path]

They aren't as busted as epees with achlys souls

[shut temple]

ah, well it was worth the mention :v

[lusty nimbus]

Alternatively what if we can find a 2x 30% faction element amity

Then pair that with 2 sticks

🤔

I'm liking the option of potential non-crit element builds on Base Heretic

[lean rampart]

It seems to me that the crit build will be stronger, because, as far as I know, the Heretic has a high crit damage modifier...

[shut temple]

there's only one way to know :v

[lusty nimbus]

I'm sure you are correct... but I have a couple builds that don't always need the highest damage >:D

So if I can get those working better because of the faction elements I have to at least try it

[storm viper]

Crit builds also need precious Bristles or crippling Pinions, besides. You can only get so much out of Prom Hands and Ferocious Bull's Eyes depending on what your whole build needs.

[shut temple]

elemental builds sounds funner 😛

new tri-elementals makes you want to at least try building around them even if they don't deal as much damage as crit ones

[uncut shoal]

Actually, it's fun..
Try Celestial staff with 5 steady hand of selene, offhand af crowsong, windtamer shoes and arisen aaru robe..

[shut temple]

what does hands of selene gives?

[uncut shoal]

Hybrid damage +15%

[main granite]

And a ton of att/mag

[lusty nimbus]

Omniflask and Tri Elementals not being able to crit is so cool.

Beguiled sticks and Selene Hands Cele Staff all feel like they're decent options to try out. I know it won't match Ultima in damage but not building for crit feels like I have a lot more adornment/gear flexibility

[uncut shoal]

Apart from hybrid, sequencer for quickcast Gods of Aaru is decent enough..
Dynasty head with heretic robe and sky shoes or just throw, Azure Pinions..

[main granite]

No crit build is probably solid without relying on corvus spells/ultima/critseals. You get to nuke using sigils or omniflask or manaray

There is definitely a lot of potential with those builds

I'm not sure omniflask does too much for said builds though

[median frost]

What specialisation are folk running with Ara?

[lusty nimbus]

Exactly!

I'm enjoying:
-Sequencer for classic feel
-D/BoF for towers
-Maji for just feeling great
-Assassin for extra Sigil duration
-Chronomancer for Sigil shenanigans in Blades of Finesse Guild
-Tamer for a more active pet
-Oracle for double crit amities

Ranger for accuracy on beta

I was unimpressed with Raider

[shut temple]

to me it's base + dof = dungeons and towers
Ara + oracle = raiding

so far it has been working great, i like it, maybe there's some hidden builds that are yet to be found 😛

[mossy gust]

I've always been curious if the devs have had certain builds in mind that we haven't found yet

[shut temple]

how are the early heretics feeling btw? lategame heretic is feeeling great but i can't test early gameplay

[median frost]

I keep forgetting about the DoF spec, might give it a bash in a tower tonight. Decent offset to the recent sigil storm adjustments.

[brittle ridge]

In t7 I've been loving the nature call flask for drawing aggro on bosses and raids and taking a few hits

[mossy gust]

If you happen to hit t8 soon, you'll have to let us know how the summon flask is on nekromancer

[shut temple]

definitely a goto for towers

[shut temple]

ohhh interesting seeing a ... uhhh was it ... druid 2.0 i think

nice that archdruids get a Summon flask

[lusty nimbus]

I'm curious if Mana Ray on corvus can be replaced with something they would use 🤔

Would an "unlife flask" work? You can't heal above 50% Health, take damage each turn?

Or the Mana regen one previously suggested?

Temp accuracy? Or even just a Flask for dex/crit temp Buffs? hmm

Could also add those flasks on shoes or future mage gear though

[raven path]

Doubt the shoes thing will happen since thief aaru boots already exist

[lusty nimbus]

Yeah, I meant the Flasks 😅

[main granite]

My guess for why corvus has both is more flexibility

Manaray does charge faster after all

[coarse chasm]

So which Heretic Celestial class would be best for running towers (to unlock celestial weapons and other classes)? I have finally managed to get enough shards, that I should be able to unlock one celestial class. I am currently level 131, ASC 5. Secondary goals will be farming for Orns and mats for unlocking the base classes, getting pets, and increasing my Ascension levels.

[astral moth]

Wait for others to chime in, but I think HAra is currently the best towering class we have access to

[coarse chasm]

I appreciate the input. Is there particular gear that pairs well for towering?

[coarse chasm]

What is D/BoF?

[trail sphinx]

Disciple of Finesse / Blade of Finesse, the two specs from the Blades of Finesse Guild

[shut temple]

HAra i would say, vestas are good overall, corvus requieres lots of other classes and gear for endless i think

[umbral musk]

I think HAra is in a good place now, I am still struggling to get Corvus and base to work though

[storm viper]

I prefer base with Anguish active mostly for Life Siphon and also the proficiency bonus with either kind of staff, since Hara only gets it with an Archistaff.

[umbral musk]

thats a good point

ya, life siphon does help a lot for anguish

[lusty nimbus]

I'm enjoying stacking elemental damage on Base and just pew pewing with the tri elementals in PvP. I've also gently poked Anguish with it to some decent success.

Corvus I haven't quite figured crit poise out yet but I'm hitting around floor 350ish in endless pretty consistently with so that's not bad. It's a great speed Raider with the mimic too!

Ara is an absolute Rockstar of a class and I like everything about it.

[uncut shoal]

How about giving accuracy when manaseep is active?

[coarse chasm]

Thematically, allowing our mana to seep out to the environment to guide a strike true? I like the idea. Would give a good reason to use it.

[coarse chasm]

What are you using to stack elemental damage currently? I think I miss Life Siphon, but I find myself wanting to use flasks more and considering using scrolls for the first time since the update. Just wish I had the 100% variety.

[lusty nimbus]

Some combination of:

-Beguiled Staff
-Amities
-Tamer spec + Anubis pet for bestial bond

I'm getting pretty decent damage with the elemental moves doing different combinations thereof though 2 Beguiled Staves seems to be the biggest contributor so far

[mossy gust]

With anubis, does each sigil of an element contained in the tri-elemental spell of your choice on the enemy increase damage by 25%? Or is it flat 25%

[minor spade]

The mage rework made heretic broken in live pvp.... allowing them to cheat around bof rules with skills that deal heavy dmg and also never misses with high penetration...

[lusty nimbus]

Before you get too far on that train, Chronomancer is what let's them do that.

And you can do it even worse on GUrsa by going second casting Metronomus and then killing your opponent in one hit with Collateral Damage.

Or Realm and getting your Avidity train going

Or Beo Auriga and getting 4 pet actions

[minor spade]

Correct but i have no issues vs gilgas, beos or rs.

[lusty nimbus]

😮‍💨 so if you have an issue with something it is broken? That seems like a flimsy definition

[minor spade]

The ray deals grazy dmg and crits and has good penetration and is a perfect hit

That is my issue

[lusty nimbus]

MANARAY?

[minor spade]

Blood

[lusty nimbus]

How exactly are you losing to Heretic Corvus? - genuine question

Ara is the PvP monster so I'm surprised

[minor spade]

By dying on metro bloodray combo thing

[lusty nimbus]

Then sounds like you should adapt your build

[minor spade]

I tried to counter it in many ways

[lusty nimbus]

I've had my bloodray zero'd be a couple gilgas the other day

[minor spade]

But the pen is just sick and statuses wont help

I saw a guy hit 150k on me turn 2

[lusty nimbus]

Great. Sounds like try harder is in order 😮‍💨

Live PvP especially is a decent rock paper scissors. If what you're doing isn't working, do something else. If that doesn't work, something else. If that still doesn't work, repeat. Change class, etc

[minor spade]

Bloodray has no counterplay

[lusty nimbus]

Why does everything that beats your setup have no counterplay?

[minor spade]

Bc i actually test differend stuff?

[storm viper]

I think what you need to counter here is Metronomus because that's what is allowing them to do this.

[minor spade]

I dont want to abuse that

[lusty nimbus]

Now if Bloodray is actually killing you in one shot on turn 2 (not turn 3), then that sounds like a bug and not a bloodray problem

[minor spade]

Its not a bug bc metro allows that

[storm viper]

I think it's fair to say that it isn't abuse if the foe is using it and it's the only (?) counter play. But that's up to you.

[minor spade]

I mean it is abusing if its breaking the rules of bof?

[storm viper]

Otherwise you'd have to use other, actual loopholes to kill before they get their back-to-back turns

[lusty nimbus]

Are we going to also remove Pets and Collateral damage breaking the damage rules?

Also just tried this build and it absolutely is not turn 2

[minor spade]

It is not breaking bc it is 2 differend actions

[lusty nimbus]

My Bloodray still got damage capped when I used Pendulus or Metronomus to skip to turn 3

So... you're letting them charge up and get to turn 4?

[storm viper]

Metronomus is literally two different turns

[minor spade]

I dont like the combination of high dmg perfect shot.

[lusty nimbus]

"I don't like" is pretty subjective, yeah?

[minor spade]

With also high pen

[dim sluice]

Bro.

What?

How hard is blood ray hitting?

[lusty nimbus]

He said 150k

On turn 2

Voiding the damage cap

[dim sluice]

I need to see that video

[lusty nimbus]

Me too

Or battle log

[minor spade]

I dont have video sry

Or log

[lusty nimbus]

Best go get it because I don't see it happening and I'm literally running it right now

[dim sluice]

Mine has never made it to 100k

In fact

I’ll go try right now

[storm viper]

I usually can't kill with it, though I don't have the best Horvus build. It's only been handy to finish someone off, subjectively speaking.

Not killing any Gilgas or Deities or anyone that has Ward with either of the Rays

[minor spade]

I think chrono made it to hit around 130k

Bc it oneshotted my ward

[lusty nimbus]

Yeah, I'm going to call bologna on this without seeing a video. I've got all my crit amps on and best mag/crit gear and barely hitting for 45k with bloodray

[dim sluice]

I use it on 1 hp opponents

[lusty nimbus]

And still getting damage capped on turn 3

[dim sluice]

Ok….

So…

I did it…

Almost double casted 500k turn 2

🫢

Against a BoF lmfao

[lusty nimbus]

Eyo! Vids!

Or PM me your setup:P

[dim sluice]

Against someone actually defending….78k without all his buffs.

Btw, 2nd guy will probably either zero me out or wreck me next turn

Sooooo….where we at? Broken?

[lusty nimbus]

Still need that battle log!

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here but Heretic Robe on, crit, the works, 66k tops against no defense target and getting damaged capped

[main granite]

To be clear - if heretic goes second and survives 2 turns, yes it's very easy to kill on our 2nd turn

[dim sluice]

Oh wait. Sorry. Btw 500k is with double cast

Lemme fix that

[lusty nimbus]

66k on Son of Odin

Also was absolutely my 4th turn

Metronomus going 2nd shoves your opponents' 2nd/3rd turn back so you go 3 and 4

[dim sluice]

Yeah. My build is pretty min maxed for PvP. Straight from the bowls of hell. Idk.

[lusty nimbus]

80k turn 3

[main granite]

Whose turn 2 - yours or theirs

What was their turn at, I should say

[lusty nimbus]

But like... why is the Heretic Corvus allowed to get to turn 3 with 4 pet actions?

[dim sluice]

My turn 2. So basically on turn 4 if we’re talking BoF