Ranger

[barren stream]

I've been forced to create a dedicated thread for a small change with big implications

Context

[stark sparrow]

Further context:
Max Miss chance(Dex Diffe):40%
Homing Shield: 5% accuracy
Max miss chance: 35%

Ranger grants 50% accuracy, immediately lowering any dex differential to the minimum 1% miss chance

[barren stream]

Dorado grants: Higher than 40

[stark sparrow]

Dorado widens the 40% gap, though we don’t know by how much

[barren stream]

Maybe higher than 50, implied by Odie

[stark sparrow]

Assume so, since Odie stated ranger wouldn’t outright deny it

[barren stream]

Maybe Dorado has just granted the full mystic feather bonus of 60% this entire time

[stark sparrow]

Still, a 50% reduction in dodge chance is a very punishing change imo, especially for classes that rely on dodging because they don’t have second chance

Even assuming a 60% dodge chance if the Dorado passive is active and maxed, ranger will lower that to 10%. This is especially game changing in PvP, where thief classes depend upon dodging to be able to survive incoming one shots

[vocal magnet]

This is above my paygrade

[barren stream]

No offense, but then why send a message in the channel?

[barren stream]

Yeah, if it's just flat 60%-50% = 10% then that is definitely worth talking about

I do honestly think Ranger's 50% is pretty balanced in PvE. Trading a spec is a big ask

[vocal magnet]

Maybe one day i will understand hah

[quasi jacinth]

10% dodge is still a lot. Couple that with 8% block from stonewarg and 20% from parapet and the fact you forced your opponent to swap specs seems fine to me. Very often missing an attack means instant death on the backswing

[stark sparrow]

In PvE sure. But trading a spec in PvP is easy, especially when you’re trying to counter someone in particular

[barren stream]

I guess the question is whether an opponent using whatever on Ranger is more powerful than an opponent using SS against you before

Since SS also bypasses Dorado in live

[stark sparrow]

Dorado doesn’t have second chance though, almost all other classes have a 50% innate chance to make you “miss” a kill shot that can’t be countered by any spec

[quasi jacinth]

Well clearly we need a spec that gives a chance to bypass 2nd chance too 😄

[stark sparrow]

Any BeoH will probably love Ranger in its current iteration for example, they go from missing a ton against Dorado to getting easy turn 1 kills

If anything, ranger extends what was one of SS’s issues (fixed miss chance) to any skill in the game

[quasi jacinth]

As a beo can confirm, literally impossible to hit a dorito without ss, even a low al one

[barren stream]

All of the Beos I knew used SS

But yes, now they can use Verse 4 to almost guarantee a hit

[quasi jacinth]

Is 62% almost guaranteed to you?

[stark sparrow]

62? It’s 90% chance to hit if we’re assuming dorado at max passive grants the same 60% as MF

90% chance to hit a dorado is 90% to kill it. 99% chance to hit a second chance class though is 44.5% chance to kill it

I’m not factoring protect and parapet into the equation because every class can and does run it equally, there’s no difference between classes there

[barren stream]

Any class other than Realmshifter or Beo/BeoA has a 50% chance of just not dying the first time they'd die (and I won't pretend to understand how the GS protect works)

RS balances that by dodging. Beo balances that with dying increased pet block chance

So the concern would be that Ranger bypasses the dodging, but there's no way to bypass the second chancing

I don't think this as a big a deal as Bord does, but Bord is much more into kingdom war and territory PvP

[vast socket]

Generally, I think soft counters are preferable to hard counters. Id consider something that turns a 40-60 W/L into a 90/10 W/L a pretty hard counter.

[quasi jacinth]

True. Dodging is a lot trickier to balance than 2nd chance because it can very easily go from useless to obnoxiously op with a slight change

[deft meadow]

second chance can proc twice. in case this was not accounted for

[stark sparrow]

Yea, I was just using turn 1 example, not even accounting for that.

[deft meadow]

50% chance, then another...25%?

btw i dont think SC is a bad passive, and this is an aside to the conversation but i dont think it should trigger twice

context is that id imagine ranger would be my go to pvp spec

for territory at least.

in war i think i would consider as well...but outside of dorado (maybe diety...?) im not sure how these base dex changes behave vs other players

i think realm players have been excited for SS to lose its fixed miss chance for a long time because it meant that their passive is relevant

(cd also go through parapet so its not really an option to "second chance it)

ranger spec with its accuracy feels like it voids this expectation

so what is a more "balanced" number where a geared dorado can still expect to dodge SS some amount of the time

[stark sparrow]

And extends the SS issue to other skills as well

[deft meadow]

right my brain is ruined by SS game play so its obviously much broader impact

[barren stream]

I wonder how unreasonable making Ranger have a smaller number in PvP is

[quasi jacinth]

Trying to fight realmshifters without ss as a low dex class is hands down the worst pvp experience I've ever had. There has to be a happy medium

[barren stream]

Idk what that number should be

40%? 35%?

[stark sparrow]

I’d say maybe 25% accuracy boost for ranger? Assuming the 60% for dorado passive, it would bring you from 60% to 35%. Less than second chance, but doesn’t reduce in a second attack

[deft meadow]

right. given the state of our basically 1 shot pvp at end game, Second chance is still greater rng. i think where it extends is you can roll much worse and miss multiple times in arow

realm can nicely punish this with avidity as well

which maybe thats how it should be?

the sweet spot is finding how much "dodge" are we comfortable with lol

[stark sparrow]

We’ve seen skills can have different values in pvp, so I’m assuming specs can as well

[barren stream]

I think 35% or 40% is reasonable

[smoky swift]

I still don't think it's terrible to have a counter to Dex dodginess besides just more dex

[deft meadow]

yeah for pve idc what the value is (though we can consider something reasonable) so this is really a pvp convo

[barren stream]

Nobody does (as far as I know)

[smoky swift]

And 10% miss chance is syil better than the old 5% miss chance

[stark sparrow]

It isn’t. It just shouldn’t be a 50% reduction imo. That’s a massive power shift

[smoky swift]

And assuming you don't get one shotted, which happens to me alot with Dorados, good luck hitting them that second time

[stark sparrow]

But it’s extended to every skill in the game now. Verse 4, Epee, etc

[smoky swift]

Not Epee

Epee is BoF

[stark sparrow]

How so? Dorado doesn’t have MF

[smoky swift]

Can't be ranger and use the epee

[stark sparrow]

Correct, my bad

Still, the point stands

[barren stream]

Verse 4, Ultima, SS, HS3

I think that would be the standard coverage

Celestial Arrow if someone is feeling spicy

[smoky swift]

Bottom line I am trading a spec that really has nothing else going for it, no useful skills, no other passives just for a decent chance to hit you

[stark sparrow]

If you’re matched in a war, you’re paying 25k orns for a 90% chance to one shot. I’ll pay that any day if I have that chance

[smoky swift]

Maybe 50% IS too much but the only way to see that for sure is to test it and nto theorizing based on numbers in my opinion

[stark sparrow]

Same thing for settlements

[smoky swift]

And all that person has to do is swap defense builds to something that doesn't rely on Dex and Ranger just got countered

[stark sparrow]

We have the numbers, so there’s not much testing can do. Math is math. If you hit dorado 90% of the time in a one shot meta, you kill dorado 90% of the time. Most other classes have an innate 50% chance to survive and slap back

[smoky swift]

It's counter, move, match

[barren stream]

You just said that to a Realmshifter, that's not a thing

[stark sparrow]

They literally need to change classes to something with second chance to do that, negating all their ALs

[hybrid flare]

Does the Dorado passive really widen that 40%? I've been using a build with under 700 dex in BoF and with a Nolan's staff I never miss against them, and that one gives 40% accuracy

[barren stream]

Realmshifter's two defense options are either:

1. Dex
2. Take the settlement back later

[smoky swift]

This is why I hate HoC

[stark sparrow]

Only if they have max passive

[hybrid flare]

I see

[stark sparrow]

And you don’t get option 2 in wars

[barren stream]

In BoF it's harder to hit max passive, and a lot of people don't realize their in-battle dex is lower than their PvP screen dex

Since the PvP screen obviously shows with AL

[smoky swift]

Also, besides maybe Ursa, I don't think you can say Gilga or Herc's second chance matter much

It's do you have enough ward to take a hit to the face and still damage back?

Or more likely stall

[stark sparrow]

There are also other classes than gilga in the game

[smoky swift]

As there are other than Realm

[deft meadow]

its actually quite hard to hit 3k in bof, and without proper gear evem when ascended

dorado suffers from often being locked into just using pumpkinless to achieve its max passive

[stark sparrow]

That’s not the point. Any class has at least one class with second chance besides realm. Ranger hard counters realm only chance at surviving in a one shot meta. Changing specs is much less impactful than telling someone to just change classes

[smoky swift]

I just think saying 50% accuracy is OP because Realm has no other defense in PVP when we really havebn't had any decent testing on it, may be a bit premature

[small solar]

I'll test more later, but yesterday on beta

A naked, 0AL gilga with ranger hit a Dorado with 3.7k dex 88/100 times

So Dorado does not exist outside of ranger in the same way mystic feather does

[stark sparrow]

That would match the observation that dorado probably widens the gap to 60%

[barren stream]

I suspect Dorado stretches what Dex can do by 50%
(hence the original -50% Dorado)

[deft meadow]

how much does that even widen when dex is added

like if you had 4.5k dex or 5..

[small solar]

So this message is not accurate unless it was patched today

[deft meadow]

not that that is even reasonable to achieve

[small solar]

I'll throw dex adorns into everything later and test again with even more dex

[stark sparrow]

Max dorado is 3k, so it should be the same

[deft meadow]

ah right. dorado passive just sort of takes over the equation

[small solar]

Maybe

[deft meadow]

its maybe because its just text on a passive screen that says nothing

[stark sparrow]

I think dorado at 3k dex just adds a flat 20% to the equation

[small solar]

My best theory is it multiplies dex stuff in some way

A 3k dex Dorado against a 4k dex diety is probably not just a "Dorado wins the dex battle"

[barren stream]

@proud elbow do you have the answer to this?

(Sorry for the ping, I know you're an expert on that kind of thing though)

[slate talon]

40% chance of 99% accuracy if I'm not wrong

Same with 50% accuracy

[stark sparrow]

We can test this out once I have a mirror as well. regardless, whatever the answer is, I don’t see any where the 50% of ranger doesn’t outright destroy dorado’s entire pvp schtick

[stark sparrow]

Further backed by this test

[slate talon]

But, we are nerfing Rs Corvus if we nerf Ranger

[barren stream]

The current proposal is keeping Ranger at 50% for PvE but giving it a lower value in PvP

It's designed for PvE, and that 50% is both needed and a tradeoff to use there

[barren stream]

I'm also not sure what you're saying here, all miss chance reduction is additive

[slate talon]

Btw, the mirrors are for all classes or only mages??

[barren stream]

Mages and people who lie about their identity

[slate talon]

Realmshifter can shift realms, it must be magic

[slate talon]

I didn't know that

[barren stream]

We suspected this, but Odie also fully confirmed it. The cap from missing due to dex is still 40%, so 39% miss chance reduction puts you at the 99% accuracy cap

[deft meadow]

idk what you mean. I am a magic man

[barren stream]

Ah, I see that you switched because Gilga is dead

I understand

[deft meadow]

gigla dead

[austere oak]

I’ll bring it to 30%. We can buff later if not enough

/thread

[deft meadow]

sick

glad we could come to a consensus

[slate talon]

That's why I thought there were 2 types of accuracy, some like ARR and others like fail-not(50% is bigger than the max miss chance)

[barren stream]

I guess 50% is just cooler than putting 39% on a weapon

[stark sparrow]

Is making it distinct between pve and pvp not an option?

[deft meadow]

30% for pve and pvp lets go

Odie just wants to sleep

[slate talon]

Dont be fooled, He's trying to keep us from finding out how the Dorado passive works

[deft meadow]

his fault for making orna

[stark sparrow]

It’s 2am here, I get it lol

[barren stream]

Worth trying in PvE, tbh Gilga might not even have a 40% miss chance against immortal lords given how much dex they have at the moment

[austere oak]

Technically, yes, sure

30% is still a lot, so I’m unsure if it’d be needed

[deft meadow]

in current anguish its...pretty good

[barren stream]

If Dangy is able to do more mirrors overnight people could be able to test tomorrow, maybe 🤞

I can test a bit but I don't Anguish

[austere oak]

I don’t know, I still like immlords as a big bad wild card threat

[stark sparrow]

It’s more that I think 30 is maybe still too strong in pvp, while not wanting to nerf it further in pve. But I guess, if splitting it is an option, we can reevaluate that later anyway

[deft meadow]

i will accept the hate of idle clicker enjoyers but please never remove immlords

[barren stream]

At 30% you have a 90% chance to hit Immortal lords I think (at least)

[deft meadow]

or the last threat is gone

only other one is zerk ymir during current event

[slate talon]

Just out of curiosity, any idea how we can test Accuracy 50%? I feel like we are missing a very important piece of information.

[stark sparrow]

Something similar to this: #1332147193842499658 message

[slate talon]

Maybe we need the lowest amount of dex("X" Class) against the highest amount of dex possible, test the miss chance, and then use ranger to see the diff

[austere oak]

i don't know what the fuss is, dex has always been the easiest stat in Orna to understand

[slate talon]

Prove it

[fast summit]

ranger good 💪 ranger help smash miss man

[smoky swift]

I've always felt Dex is a difficult stat to put a value on

Is 1 point of dex equivalent in value to 1 point of atk/mag or def/res?

[austere oak]

sure

[smoky swift]

Then we're definitely going to have to have a talk about lower tier gear values at some point 😉

[slate talon]

Any Rs Dorado in beta that has 3015 Dex?

[proud elbow]

Sorry just saw this

I think odie answered it already today

Lines up with what we tested

3k dex dorado roughly 40% miss chance, additive to dex difference miss chance

If that answers it

#1331674036513538078 message

Dorado is definitely additive to dex difference miss chance. Just dont know the exact number of dorado miss chance at 3k dex. Our testing yielded 40% ish

[proud elbow]

Ranger and all the huge accuracy items are clearly built in as a counter to dorado though. Without them, Dorado would be a runaway OP class

[opal creek]

Is 50% confirmed to go down to 30% or is that still up in the air?

[barren stream]

Confirmed as far as anyone knows

[slate talon]

30% accuracy

[opal creek]

Are numbers for spec passives still not visible like for class passives?

Though I do assume it's 30% now

[barren stream]

Equip the spec and it's visible

It is currently 30% in beta, can confirm

[quasi jacinth]

Anyone know if ranger will affect pets?

[barren stream]

Does Riftrogue effect pets?

Whatever the answer to that question is is probably the same answer for ranger.

[unreal atlas]

I think we miss a crucial data point which is "what's the hit chance with equal dex"?

[stark sparrow]

1%

[marble ridge]

most likely will, because accuracy +% gears does affects followers

[quasi jacinth]

If crit and spiked shield are getting nerfed and beoH has to rely on ranger to hit high dex classes then our stat passive should work in pvp. It's a measly 20% but it would be something

[bronze trout]

T9 ranger version with higher accuracy. Unlockable only via BoF for nostalgia.

[quasi jacinth]

The more I think about it the more I don't like these changes for low dex classes. We're already losing a bunch of damage on the next best pvp build(verse 4 crit) and in addition we'll need an entire spec just to hit high dex classes which will cost even more damage. There should be some more viable non crit options for pvp because right now the only options will be oracle crit, or lower damage ranger crit

[austere oak]

do we have a good example of damage loss on verse?

[bronze trout]

I think we don't use verse on pvp

at least not against dorado

[stark sparrow]

I think they’re probably comparing vs the meta of running oracle with 2x 40% crit amities. IMO, that’s a trade off that makes sense to me. BeoH has low dex, so being able to opt for a spec that has more dex at the cost of some power is a net positive alternative to have

[stark sparrow]

You will after the SS nerfs

[bronze trout]

what other spell we could use?

[quasi jacinth]

Not 100% sure how much damage I'd lose but I think I'd struggle vs a realmshifter of equal als.

For example my normal verse build does around 230k in oracle. With just one 40% crit amity I'm doing around 150k turn 1.

So if the changes go through I'm doing less than 150k because the build uses prom hands and I have to use ranger spec, which means my opponent only needs to get over 75k hp to survive one hit, easy to do at my al. I would need to sacrifice nearly all my ward to dual wield for a more reliable kill.

All beoH has in pvp is damage and it's not that much more than other classes. We have the worst second chance, horrible dex, no status effect resistance and no real stat passive. We should at least get to have our 20% dragon passive in pvp 🙏

[bronze trout]

I don't think 20% would matter much against Dex targets like Dorado anyway, and even if you hit they won't die.

[stark sparrow]

Actually, realmshifter has the worst second chance

[bronze trout]

And you probably don't have highest chance to crit either since you can't buff up . So you need to somehow hit more than once for sure. Meanwhile you are making resurgence stronger Vs your no stats. Also you are more susceptible to negative status than Dorado. All this not even counting Avidity.

Plus if you don't hit you don't recharge either.

[austere oak]

I don’t think the damage reduction could be that severe - the prom example is a 20% difference in the bonus multiple (not 20% difference in final damage)

So, I’m not sure you’ll see much change here. But now you have Ranger as a tool to help with the dex difference

[quasi jacinth]

If I have to depend on ranger that is an indirect nerf to damage. BeoH is the only class that doesn't get to use it's stat passive in pvp too

[marble ridge]

does GUrsa's crest of lyonesse work in pvp?

[barren stream]

No

[quasi jacinth]

Gursa was one of the best classes in the game for pvp

It didn't need stat passive. BeoH needs something

[austere oak]

What has this patch changed that is requiring Ranger for Verse damage?

[quasi jacinth]

Spiked shield changes

[barren stream]

Fwiw BeoH's Hybrid Monster 3 ensures it has some of the highest turn 1 attack & magic in the game, even without a stat passive

Having your stat passive or not, if you connect you can likely 1-shot in most cases

[quasi jacinth]

It's really not that amazing. Heretic and realmshifter hit just as hard with bonus crit damage

If these changes go through I guarantee I won't be oneshotting a competent realmshifter with equal amonts of als

If I don't get the one shot then I'm probably screwed because then I get one shot, or woo comes out, or they start getting extra turns

If being the best turn one class in the game is supposed to be my main advantage then it needs to be a more noticeable one

[austere oak]

testing these theories/build performance in the beta might be the best next step

[quasi jacinth]

No need to test when I already have numbers on live that illustrate my point. Again: without the additional 40% crit amity I'm doing 150k with verse 4. A realmshifter at my al could have 100k hp and 200k ward. They only need 75k and starting ward to guarantee I won't kill them turn 1. If I can't kill turn 1 the odds of me winning drop off a cliff

Previously ss was a crutch for beoH's lack of dex, it's not really an option anymore. Not without ranger at least. BeoH won't be great in pvp even if we get our stat passive, but it sure would sting a lot less if we get a little attention

[austere oak]

SS/CS was indeed a crutch and dex did suffer as a stat in PvP with it's existence

[quasi jacinth]

Quick showcase of what I mean, tested against an 85 al dorito. 2 wins 4 losses vs a player with about half my als. Showing: 1. I'm not lying about or exaggerating damage. 2. What happens if I don't get a turn 1 win. 3. That ranger will absolutely be required vs rs

[hybrid flare]

Would you actually have more damage with oracle and 2 40% crit amities but swapping the non-celestial weapon for a weapon with accuracy?

Like, not saying you would, just curious if it would be the case, since I can test it on my mirror, but the results will be a lot different when comparing yours to mine, due to class/AL difference

[quasi jacinth]

Also if I miss turn 1 I'm almost certainly dead

Shout out to @digital shell for being my test dummy

Keep in mind going first is the biggest advantage you can have in pvp

I'm not asking for dex to be invalidated again, I just want a little something to make us feel better about the upcoming kick to the nuts

[bronze trout]

when you can't beat them, join them

[opal tide]

I'm kinda just jumping in here trying to catch up with some of the discussions. I haven't tested anything personally. Has Ranger's accuracy and Full Bend II been discussed at all. I didn't see it mentioned which was surprising. Especially when the accuracy buff was 50% which would give it a 99% to hit. It has an M1 of 3.0, the highest of any melee skill besides rend / epee.

[quaint fable]

Accuracy is now 30%

[opal tide]

80% chance to hit, could be to DW'd a celestial and Arisen Reinbow.

[barren stream]

Needs a decent amount of investment but it could be a viable PvP setup

You give up quite a bit of potential power by choosing ranger rather than another spec, but maybe the accuracy and M1 can make up for that to some degree

[opal tide]

I had made a BoF arena build DWing a celestial w/ prom hands and a failnot. It did surprisingly well. Not the best but far from the worst.