Heretic Identity Patch Discussion

[void ridge]

Nerf ||||

[scarlet pawn]

Haha, I'm just trying to add ideas since flasks aren't going anywhere.

Doesn't seem like there is much else we can do beyond this to change the patch, as previously stated by others.

[clear frost]

Usurper, which was just added, does feel overly strong at first blush

[scarlet pawn]

Maybe it can only borrow pre-buff stat values instead? That way the innate boosts from Bastille, etc. aren't completely turned against the target beyond their control.

[clear frost]

Maybe

This is a joke: Just add a % of taming the follower and you have the perfect Beo silver bullet though

[scarlet pawn]

Well, that should probably be part of the Banishment flask (call it Subjugation or something) so that it has a greater niche.

[clear frost]

yeah, I feel like someone had tossed that out there before. In any case, yeah. I also like that idea.

[scarlet pawn]

Right now, it just feels strangely targeted to a class that already suffers in PvP. Someone mentioned the raid bosses before though, so that will still help in those cases for lower tiers.

[clear frost]

yup, fully agree

I feel it is very niche for us as users, and feels-bad for the recipient

If I were to replace it with something else from your list, I would grab inversion and never look back

that is a PvP silver bullet that is way more applicable and then everybody gets to hate us

[inland cloak]

Huge thanks for making some flasks not consume a turn! 👍
This really helps in defeating strong opponents—it works great! 💪

[inland cloak]

To be honest, I don't like all the other flaks. Others are not at all profitable to use to waste charges.

[cedar skiff]

Talk to some Gilga right now and I don’t think there’ll be an agreement on who has the dex issue 🙂

look, classes are going to be different. There are going to be dex classes, there are going to be safe classes, and there are going to be big number risky classes - there just isnt much point to having classes if fundamentals like dex are going to be levelled across them. Embracing the differences and choosing the archetype that appeals to us is what classes in RPGs is all about

[astral inlet]

That particular one Sigil Stormflask is not a guaranteed extra turn.

[inland cloak]

It’s actually very hard to come up with abilities for vials, especially making sure they’re all useful 🥹

Why not give players the option to choose the spell and buffs themselves? 😉

We’re great wizards who’ve learned so many spells and buffs, so why not prepare and fill the vial with that spell before the battle? 🫙👍

[inland cloak]

Weird, it seems to have always worked for me.

[trail marsh]

Gilga has been using a skill with a 5% miss chance, ofc they're going to feel like they have a dex issue now with that being removed.

Heretic is being called a glass cannon yet we can't land a hit which means death and are still being outperformed damage wise by ss and RS while we're supposed to be hitting harder. No point in being a glass cannon if we're going to die before we can even buff up when these other classes don't need to, to achieve the same thing. If we're going to be labeled and treated as a glass cannon with no survivability, why the hell are we hitting less than any other class turn 1?

[astral inlet]

You get the extra turn if you have a full flask

[cedar skiff]

Which content are you referring to? At aggregate, heretic isn’t really in a place where it dies before buffing. Im guessing these sentiments are just PvP?

[hearty bough]

Oh hey dads here

[clear frost]

Not speaking for Wrecked, but "dying before buffing" is the first, usually biggest, obstacle to completing non-themed dungeons. I will trust the numbers in the aggregate, so I will qualify that as "with anguish".

But in my opinion, this is addressed very well by blood loss flask

[cedar skiff]

I would suggest we not use anguish as a baseline. It’s not representative of the majority of experiences, and is going to change drastically

[clear frost]

Sounds good.

[cedar skiff]

(other classes are also dying plenty before buffing when anguished :))

[clear frost]

Finding it hard to phrase this, but I think we might be the wrong focus group to opine on the non anguish experience.

I think everyone here has the current anguish system top of mind

[cedar skiff]

I’m of the mindset that any class having difficulty with high anguish doesnt need adjustment. Those that are not having difficulty are the issue

[clear frost]

I can get behind that, but it implies that tuning certain options down is in order

[cedar skiff]

Or changing anguish 🙂

[clear frost]

Ha! Touché

[terse topaz]

I think dismissing heretic's struggle with current anguish is not productive

Heretic struggles with anguish for a variety of reasons that Wrecked described

And these apply to pvp as well.

• Not enough survivability to buff before dying
• Not as much damage as the other classes

What are we supposed to do in pvp?

These are symptoms of the core issue - Heretic has no defensive prowess and our offensive prowess can be done better and more quickly by other classes

Our "glass cannon" niche isn't ours at all

[unique gull]

Hoping Odie has good things planned for Ang 2.0 in terms of classes being fair just because it would suck for heretic to get a rework before a big game change and things to become ehhhh rough again should I say? Same for RS, Gilga, and Poor Summoner Hydrus (lost but not forgotten)

The glass cannon niche is nice but defensively is rough even at higher ALs for a base mark endgame Ang. Now with possible maluses and such in 2.0 how much more rough would it get?

[terse topaz]

Heretics die more. We have less survivability than the other classes and it feels like we keep on saying this and being dismissed

Brand new (old) Heretic identity: die fast, hit medium

[hearty bough]

Guys give him a second to respond lol

[sudden folio]

whispers ship it

it will be a little disappointing that I won't find flask specific gear useful, if it is in the mix to come. But perhaps gear making Efficacious stronger hmmm

[unique gull]

Might as well, about as far as they are going with the identity update haha

[unique gull]

Deity still waiting on good Apex gear, don't hold your breath unless it's with ang2.0 lol

[hearty bough]

https://tenor.com/view/ohpo-gif-22649006

Odie

[terse topaz]

Our job isn't to wait on Odie to respond to everything, it's to give feedback. I'm not gonna stop giving feedback just to wait

[hearty bough]

Ok bro

[terse topaz]

He's busy and will respond when he can

If he wants to

[hearty bough]

Keep spreading your truth

< ‘ )7

[inland cloak]

The damage must be increased unequivocally. Now the Heretic in the arena can do something only with two-handed weapons, good clothes and critical

[terse topaz]

I feel like efficacious can be the signature ability Heretic needs. Buff the immunity damage, increase damage on resists as well, and I love the idea of increased accuracy on elemental spells

I think a big part of why Heretic dies more is because we are the only classline that has basically no access to gear high on Defense. 0 access to warrior gear and only Corvus gets thief gear... our defense stat is null and physical damage is everywhere

On the other hand, our partial identity of elemental damage runs into resistances and immunities everywhere. Magic is resisted in a way that defense is not and that feels bad

[cedar skiff]

I wouldn’t call it dismissal - it’s just not worth anyone’s time to put it the extra days/weeks to balance something around something that is then going to go

[terse topaz]

That's fair, but the undelying issues are still a problem IMO

I'd love to address those

[jaunty talon]

Just an idea from a non heretic player. Would it be more interesting to have flasks act more like Apex and take up skill slots in exchange for more play being put into efficacious to increase the elemental identity?

[inland cloak]

I will say this... the heretic is not played now, not because of the protection, not because of Ward in the arena. and this normal for this class. You need to assemble the right build and everything is not so bad)

[scarlet pawn]

Aside from them feeling more like Apex if that's done, the flask spells do not cost Mana (unless you're using one that intentionally reduces Mana) which is... congruent with our Iconoclast bonus.

Unless the flasks as spells are reduced to 0 Mana cost, it's preferable that they remain their own thing. Also, there would have to be something in place to prevent other classes from using them (better).

[cedar skiff]

fixed flask choices also promotes identity throughout the classline. And we are here for identity 🙂

[dusk osprey]

Surely the solution is Heretics getting Physical resist

[tight adder]

Physical immunity*

Kekekekek

[scarlet pawn]

New flask ability?

Dematerialization Flask

[dusk osprey]

Part of class, like how Realm gets Dark/Holy immune

but due to the absolutely large amount of Physical things, I think an immunity would be too much

[hearty bough]

Not likely that different flasks get introduced later?

[dusk osprey]

I could see gear that subs out flasks for other ones 👀

much like gear that gives followers abilities, and us abilities

the door is not shut on these being our only and final flasks

[tight adder]

I believe that

[cedar skiff]

Flask spell addition gear would be awesome event gear

[inland cloak]

The idea with the flasks is cool. need to think about useful skills, their effects

[jaunty talon]

I feel like this would make them actually threatening in pvp as well as increase survivability like people are asking.

Maybe a little too scary though lol

[scarlet pawn]

#1331673547210358794 message

Those aside, others have already made suggestions for flasks somewhere in the discussion. Admittedly, mine don't directly address a current issue. Not in the way most would want, at least.

As of now, our most useful flasks are probably the accuracy assist (Mana/Blood Ray) and free Iconoclast boost (Bloodloss).

Does anyone else have ideas there?

[dusk osprey]

inb4 T10 Arisen Fey Trevelyan this April, emphasis on mages and flask gear

[clear frost]

Preach!

[terse topaz]

Can we get a stronger efficacious Odie

[inland cloak]

and when will it be possible to test beta on Aethric?)

[lucid seal]

Damn it…I need to find an ornate arisen morrigan scroll :(.

[clear frost]

I don't think there will be a beta for us. We are probably getting the update when it goes live

[dusk crescent]

Here to hope that any adjustment or buff patch would not take as long as it did in the past.

[tawdry solar]

Here's some of my opinion on some flasks

• Repetition flask: You take at least 2 turns to charge up a flask so you can cast a 3 turns spell in 1 turn in best scenario, this is the worst trade ever.
  Solution to fix: i haven't have a solution for it yet

• Manaseep flask: Burn your MP each turn, from the result of my test, it burn 5% of your max MP each turn, you can recast it to turn it off.
  What's the point of this? To blueline? If you want to reduce your MP, Bloodloss is faster
  To manage your MP at low and can keep using spells? I don't see an option for that. If you regen MP >= your loss MP each turn then it's for nothing
  If your regen is less than the MP burn x%, at some point we will run out of MP, a mage class without MP . Oh, we can turn it off, right? And then we sit at blueline and has x% MP regen which somehow = your MP need to cast your spamming spell => best scenario. Then why not just use bloodloss and go to blueline in 1 turn? and have the same setup with x% regen and your spamming spell?
  Solution to fix: make it burn % of your current MP instead, that way, at some point, we can just cast spell without have to turn off manaseep and maintaining our blueline

• elemental stormflask: You spend a flask charge and cause your opponents a random basic debuff, this take 1 turn. This is just a filler flask, right? because i don't see how we want to spend 1 turn and 1 flask to cause a random basic debuff, we can't even choose the debuff we want to cause
  Solution to fix: Increase the number of debuffs or make this 0 turn cast
  (Limit text characters so i'll send another msg for other flasks)

• Sigil stormflask: You can cause up to 4 sigil to opponents, can take extra turn. Best to combo with AVga in horde mode or AVla to deal huge damage, consume 3/4 sigils except aquila after that
  Take 1-2 turns for an AOE clear? We already can do that in 1 turn
  Deal huge damage with AVla? Maybe but Ultima does it better with correct build and don't need consume flask
  For player who don't have access to Ultima, this seem like a good choice for raiding but if we counting the number of turns to charge flask to do this, this doesn't seem like a good deal anymore since you can only benefit from it once, after cast AVla, the sigil get consumed and you back to almost 0
  Solution: Maybe keep the sigil? They're already has fade chance, you probably can only case 1 AVla with 4 sigil more and maybe 2 more with 3 sigils, not many sigil can last 4 turns

• Bloodloss flask: Reduce your MP by 70%, take 0 turn, I don't have problem with how it work, I know there're many way we can start combat with blueline but a new way that don't have to switch weapon/class is nice, it's alright. It's just the name make it really confusing, at first i thought it deal dmg to your self to redline or smth => suggest to change the name.
  Next is the accessibility, how is heretic Ara, a class that need to burn MP don't have access to it, even in the Ara passive we can see "spell cost more mana" text, why this class doesn't have access to a mana burn spell?
  Suggest: Make it a mana flask

[cedar skiff]

For 1) remember that you can bank flasks in dungeons/towers, so the economy would not be the aforementioned. You can 5x repetition if needed

2. blood loss is not every turn and cannot have sustain built around it. There’s been some cool things shared from the beta with it

3. introduced at t3. Utility may not extend to t10, so could be replaced - remember, this is a mage classline patch so we will want to consider all tiers

Agreed re: 5

[tawdry solar]

2. blood loss is not every turn and cannot have sustain built around it. There’s been some cool things shared from the beta with it
   Sry, i think u misunderstand about my opinion about the manaseep math part
   If you already have a way to sustain built with manaseep, then you'll have a sustain built with bloodloss, bloodloss will help you blueline faster <- this is the main point

[cedar skiff]

Yes, but blood loss needs a full flask

So uses beyond the first won’t be convenient

[tawdry solar]

Sry, i still don't understand, is it: Use manaseep with non full flask is better than bloodloss with non full flask?

[cedar skiff]

I’m just saying manaseep should be better for longer battles/dungeons. No need to charge flasks and burn turns blood lossing after pots. Both spells should have their situations

[scarlet pawn]

For Heretic and Horvus, at least.

[brisk salmon]

Manaseep has its uses for sure

[shell fiber]

im not sure if this has been suggested but how about a flask that can increase the effectiveness of effacious? (that isnt just a sigil)

the sigil is useful in like raids for charging but well in hordes it doesnt get much use

[dusk osprey]

I would suggest, at least, that turning Manaseep off should take 0 turns

[mossy fractal]

What if instead of just losing the mana from bloodloss, or manaseep, it went to a 2nd mana pool.
We can still spend that mana while maintaining our blue line. This would make having low mana less annoying and also lets us use less mana potions.

Alternately, mana lost to those flasks could charge a mana shield based on the amount of mana consumed. (Not ward)

[amber ruin]

Turning off manaseep also consumes battery, could this be changed?

I would feel more comfortable if manaseep had an effect of recovering 5% lost mana, instead of consuming my mana... I've been doing some desperation dungeons and when I still need to use something like Ara Vesta to deal with immune enemies or whatever

[amber ruin]

At least it would save an amity slot in some cases 😔

[dusk osprey]

Did you test this out? It should cost 0

Also as someone that uses 5% missing mana recovery for QC Ultima endless, I would dig a tool like this that I can only really use an amity for (without sacrificing crit or orn gain) - or something like the effect halving all mana costs

[trail marsh]

Anguish even though I see below you suggest not using it as a baseline. That is the baseline we have with it being what we have access to. I can run a 50 anguish horde dungeon almost as effectively on a 10 al g.ursa in beta as I can on a 154 AL heretic. There's no point in even wasting time buffing on gilga once you're 50+ al. Hell, at 10 AL on g.ursa with no manual buffing and only DC from Phoenix which is falling off all the time I'm consistently making it to floor 18 - 22. I'm dying slightly less on heretic, it only requires 15x the amount of AL with more buffing and not even having much use of flasks outside of manaseep in the beginning. T.all ^^^ and t.mag ^^^ are up to hit a whopping 30k more than I'm hitting on g.ursa with t.all^^^ and 144 ALs less.

If the other classes are to be considered the problem because they clear anguish too easy then this balance should have focused heavily on nerfing the other classes rather than giving heretics a lackluster identity/rework where they still seem substantially worse than every other class out there. Maybe heretics will be better suited for anguish 2.0, but we don't have that yet. Didn't really need help in raids which is the only place you'll see our glass cannon identity shine (maybe endless too). Survivability and dex issues were pretty much ignored outside of getting a flask for a stronger bolt spell

[tawdry solar]

For 1) remember that you can bank flasks in dungeons/towers, so the economy would not be the aforementioned. You can 5x repetition if needed
Even in that case, noone would use a multi turns spell in tower, then the result will be we spending 1 turn to case a 1 turn spell and cost us 1 flask
About casting 5 times Ultima 2 in a row, where's the benefit? You already spend 10 turns to charge 5 flasks (with best charge rate possible) so you can cast 5 Ultima 2 - 15 turns in 5 turns now?

[tawdry solar]

this sound like a good fix for manaseep

Idk why some people think manaseep can somehow has usecase that's better than bloodloss. I think they're overrated this, kinda like repetition flask. They're both sound good until you really try them

[tawdry solar]

currently turn off manaseep cost 1 blood flask in beta

[daring sand]

Ectoplasm supposedly gives resistance to physics. But I've never used it...

[scarlet pawn]

It does but it also puts you to sleep and you can't use gear to prevent the effect.

[inland cloak]

It would be ideal to rework manna seep like this: Make it burn 80% of mana at once, and enable 5% regeneration per turn (+ extra turn). And also give this flax to the entire class with the iconoclast passive

[amber ruin]

You can activate or deactivate it with 0 cost if your bloodflask = 0 charge, but if you have any flask with charge it will be consumed both on activation and deactivation.

I did some dungeons after my comment and took the opportunity to reconfirm that it was being spent

[amber ruin]

I was hoping an effect like this would come from a rework of the passive "The Heretic"... I even posted here (#1331673547210358794 message) an idea about what a more comfortable way for the reworked passive to interact with Iconoclast would be, which is kind of similar to this mana regeneration one.

[amber ruin]

I've read some comments and questions about the charges that each spell provides, so:

The only non-elemental skills that charge the flasks are the ones we get in HAra and HCorvus and they charge something close to 12.2% like almost all the others:

Flasks on Heretic B/A:

• Chakram = ~12%
• Vesta 3 = ~12%
• Ultima = ~16%
• Omnimancy (2 elements) = ~18% if it doesn't hit weakness
• Omnimancy (2 elements) = ~31% if it hits weakness
• Supernatural Disaster = ~12%
• Omnimancy (4 elements) = ~18% if it doesn't hit weakness
• Omnimancy (4 elements) = ~31% if it hits weakness

Flasks on Heretic C (30% more charge):

• Chakram = ~16%
• Vesta 3 = ~16%
• Ultima = ~20%
• Omnimancy (2 elements) = ~24% if not hitting weakness
• Omnimancy (2 elements) = ~40% if hitting weakness
• Supernatural Disaster = ~16%
• Omnimancy (4 elements) = ~24% if not hitting weakness
• Omnimancy (4 elements) = ~40% if hitting weakness

All values can be doubled with scrolls

Resistance and immunity do not change the charges, in fact you don't even need to hit the target for the charges to happen.

[tawdry solar]

what's Supernatural Disaster?

[amber ruin]

Using omnimancy (2 and 4 elements) 2x would be a charge of 80%, but the counter shows as 81% which suggests that it is charging more than an exact %.

[amber ruin]

Wow, lol, this was a post I made for my compatriots, so I just put it in the translator to save time, in the game we use "Fey" (Fey Cataclysm, Fey Fulmination...)

I just summarized the 4 for "Supernatural Disasters"

[cedar skiff]

Please do remember we are doing a identity patch here - we want identity and tools to deal and in battle fun for the whole classline. That’s the goal with our identity patch

If the data shows long term that heretic, at aggregate, is performing the worst, then we can pursue conversation about buffs, nerfs, etc. it’s hard to make any decision based on on anguish50 content right now

[acoustic prairie]

An important thing to consider for repetition flask:
You're not "spending" 2 turns charging up a flask - you're dealing damage while a flask is being charged. The 2 turns aren't being wasted, unless you're using super low damage spells to charge your flask up.
Additionally, you can use tools such as Ward Flask Infusion, which drains your ward to fill up to 2 flasks - which then makes it 1 turn to charge 2 flasks, which can be used to cast a 3 turn spell in 1 turn 2 times, which saves you 4 turns

[dusk crescent]

With all due respect, how 'long term' do the players had to wait for such changes.

From my experience and perhaps a few had expressed here, heretic is already performing below par compared to many classes in high anguish and pvp content.

[cedar skiff]

Do you believe the game should get to the state where all classes dont have difficulty in some content?

[dusk crescent]

No, and could you kindly answer my main concern.

Thank you

[cedar skiff]

My answer depended on whether we had consensus. We’ll want live data to determine whether identity solved some of the things we set out to solve here - that’ll take a few millions battles

For PvP defense/high anguish, I’m not going to set a timeline expectation. Anguish has been covered above and we do agree that all heretic doesnt need to be a good performer in every piece of content

Base Beo, base RS, base Heretic, and GS Hydrus are a bit tied for PvP defense. In a world where classes needed to perform in a normalized sense across content, I’d say they’d all need to be prioritized, but I’m not necessarily “there” in a game design sense. You know?

[lilac yacht]

So are we saying heretic will never be on par for high ang ?

[cedar skiff]

To repeat the above: anguish is changing, so classes should not be adjusted to deal with current anguish

[lilac yacht]

So it will be on par in the end?

[cedar skiff]

Anguish 2.0 does not have the same difficulty adjustment, all classes should have more difficulty with it

[lilac yacht]

Stop being mystical bro

That means not on par

[cedar skiff]

I can’t help it, I’m a mystical wizard

On par at aggregate, yes. Heretic will continue to be a better anguish raider while Gilga may be better at anguish dungeons. But they should even out

All classes should have content tradeoffs imo

[lilac yacht]

Ok cool. Ty

[cedar skiff]

It’ll also depend on whether your build can deal with the anguish choices you’ve made, but that’s another jar of pickles

[tawdry solar]

the ward infusion flask make thing interesting, charge flask is one of my main concern tho, i come a bit late for test so i didn't read all the changes and no one mention ward infusion until now (so weird since this spell sound quite strong)
On the other note, i still feel repetition flask is kinda overrated, in normal condition (not build about +flask charge rate), if you use strong spells, you can gain 1 flask every 4-7 turns (normally 7 since there's no good omnimancy spell), to benefit the most you usually want to build up max number of flask (3/5), and then follow by a 3 turns cast. That make the use of repetition very slow, the ward infusion does help but make this very very risky

[lilac yacht]

Yeah. Choose wisely

[dusk crescent]

Thanks for the reply.

[acoustic prairie]

I don't have the beta items to make a good mage build, so the ultima damage numbers you're about to see are pitiful

That being said, here's casting repetition flask 4 times, with only having spent 3 turns earning flasks (wardflask infusion, manaflask infusion, wardflask infusion)

With a scroll (which I also don't have) I'm pretty sure that would've been 5 casts, too - since repetition flask casts of ultima also charge flasks

For a high level high ascension well geared heretic, the raid would've been dead well before all the flasks were spent.
For lower power level heretics, they'd be able to make full use of filling and spending flasks for power spikes

[clear frost]

Adding to this - a full collection of 5 flasks with a scroll on Corvus gives you 7 casts!

[acoustic prairie]

If a person is strong enough to unlock corvus I am sure the raid isn't surviving 8 ultimas / fey unstables lol

[clear frost]

Since I was testing as an al0 with beta gear, I can co fidently say I was able to defeat raids I would not habe been able to otherwise

[clear frost]

Agreed

But there's value there IMHO

Because even someone with Corvus will eventually want to participate in Arisen Waygates

Killing raids like A.Morri is also not neccessarily trivial, even with a moderatr amt. of ALs. Speaking from my own experience

[acoustic prairie]

Fair, it has plenty of AW Potential

[clear frost]

Been discussing in the OL server today RE: Heretic raiding's current state and how it will be improved by flasks (Abyss, I dont know to find you here). Consider the following video for perspective

dang, sorry I lost it

[acoustic prairie]

Abyss is not in this server.

[clear frost]

Gear: Cele with Prom Hands and Kaladanda with Achlys souls, Nag belts for blights to stick a bit longer, 2 40% crit amities
Follower: Lotan
Buffs: MM+Wyvern Speed + Zerk 1 + DC + T.Mag+++ (from Merlin's brew)
ALs: 76
Damage: ~19M

Now think about how the build is impacted by flasks:

• Wear Aaru Robe instead of Fey Surtr's Cuirass
• Use Mightiest Mimic instead of Lotan
• Wear Carl's Rings instead of Nag belts
• Use Fallen Sky Shoes instead of Windtamer Shoes

We get:

• Better mag and defenses due to not needing a t5 follower to act reliably and apply a debuff
• No need to spend an event-only consumable
• No RNG involved with when the blight will be applied
• If debuffs stick, guaranteed follow-up Ultima II cast following turn for the kill

We pay:

• Need to cast Omniblast a few times to fill 1 or 2 flasks. Maybe 3 because AMorri casts dispel frequently

The kicker - my fellow tester did something similar but at AL0, dealing ~9m damage.

They need 4 flasks instead of 2 or 3, but it is doable

[hard bay]

Isn't this inherent imbalance the essence of class-to-class identity?

[hard bay]

What I'm trying to say here is... I'm not going to be upset if I perform slightly worse in certain content than the other classes. I like being a glass cannon and I accept the shortcomings that come with it

[hard bay]

So long as I cam still engage in said content competently

[cedar skiff]

Yup, I’m of the opinion that all classes should be able to have at least minimal success in all content, then good success in some of those areas vs other classes. This is the motivation behind our CCS metric, which looks at classes average across all major content types (granted, anguish does create exceptions).

[hasty heath]

I absolutely agree that every content should be playable with every class, but each should stand out in a certain pve content and have more difficulties in another one. only the pvp content should be balanced in my opinion, so you have a lot of build diversity in pvp and at least for me that's the most fun. (in any case I love your game Odie, but a bit more the Aethric version ;-))
Regarding the heretic update I can say that as a realmshifter player I definitely want to try out the class when it goes live, I find the changes extremely interesting and exciting.

[urban delta]

Sort of related - any chance Gradlon's Archistaff could get a proper 2h AoE move? 🤔

[hearty bough]

That’s the only 2h i have. Unfortunate that the skill isn’t good

[unique gull]

Holy AoE with a ward turn would be neat. Especially since there's no real holy stuff to really build for

[urban delta]

Celestial Arrow would like a word with you. But more holy would be cool

[unique gull]

What that's skill? Never heard of it

[scarlet pawn]

More Holy would be cool if there weren't so many enemies immu-....

!!!

Celestial Arrow will be viable now! Haha

[astral inlet]

Could be interesting to make Celestial Arrow an omnimancy type spell with Dark/Holy or Holy/Dark/Arcane/Dragon.

[astral inlet]

Oh, and give Towerfall to Hera Corvus or GSH since the Valhallans are done with it.

[tawdry solar]

what's the change for it?

[scarlet pawn]

We ignore immunities with Efficacious.

[tawdry solar]

ignore? like fully ignore or 75% reduce or 37.5% reduce (coz it's just half holy)?

[scarlet pawn]

Ignore as in deal damage even if the target is immune. Celestial Arrow is pure Holy, unless something changed.

[tawdry solar]

i remember it was holy + fire

[scarlet pawn]

It has the same icon as most of the Fire spells, for some reason, but it's only Holy

[terse topaz]

I really agree with the sentiment that all classes should have some parity in pvp content. It's fine for classes to have roles/strengths/weaknesses in pve content, but the core of any direct 1v1 fight against another player is that there must be an inherently level playing field.

When a class is noticeably worse than others in that direct 1v1, it becomes a suboptimal choice in a way that isn't fun for a majority of people

And it doesn't just impact you, the player - it impacts your kingdom during kingdom wars

[cedar skiff]

Today's update:

* New Flask: Inflection Flask - instantly grants T.Def and T.Res (duration dependant on Flask charge, replaces Mana-surge on endgame classes)```

[clear frost]

• and mana surge flask was removed from Base Heretic

[brisk salmon]

😦

[clear frost]

I can't remember what stood in place of Inflection Flask for Hera Ara

[brisk salmon]

Now I really need AI to learn these lol

[clear frost]

Maybe nothing? Maybe me not remembering means it doesn't matter to me anyway

I find it odd that Inflection Flask was not added to Hera Corvus

[brisk salmon]

Ugh. I won’t be able to rest until tomorrow. 😩 I’ll read y’all thoughts for now

[clear frost]

Especially considering that Mana Ray Flask is, arguably, redundant

I personally do resent losing Mana Surge in base

[cedar skiff]

only when you have a bloodflask charged, at least

did you find surge useful? i feel like i've only read negative stuff about it in endgame

[clear frost]

Well, that's good ole' human inability for real convergence hahaha

Yes, but I won't pretend my opinion aligns with the majority

[cedar skiff]

the lower tier one, elemental storm

[clear frost]

ah, gotcha. Thank you.

[cedar skiff]

we can likely poll

[brisk salmon]

I do think mana surge wasn’t that useful the later in the end game you are

[clear frost]

For the sake of having a more productive conversation - the combo that I liked was as follows. In towers specifically:

• Turn 1 Bloodloss Flask
• Turn 1+ Mana Surge Flask
• Turn 2 Defeat leftover mobs

The negative feedback I saw is that mana surge flask had relatively low M1, and I do believe that is true

[brisk salmon]

Hmm. I never tried that. Why did you go mana surge instead of a 2 handed or Vesta 4?

That combo didn’t even cross my mind

[clear frost]

Because I was using a scroll to charge the flasks faster

[brisk salmon]

Ahh got ya

[clear frost]

at AL0 it was a consistent way to deal ~15k damage with beta gear. Not bad gear mind you - an Arisen Macha Pillar (not fey)

It's not an overwhelming loss. AV4 is likely closer to optimal in most scenarios

It added some nice versatility and was scroll friendly is the best I have to say about it

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[tight adder]

the one that gave "rot" , "paralyze" etc

[clear frost]

yup, Odie mentioned it above

but thank you!

[tight adder]

ah true, lol i flew over that lol

the added efficacious mean that while casting like ultima / fey catastrophes, you get less damage taken?

[clear frost]

so what happens is that now when you cast a multi-hit spell, efficacious reduces the total damage to 25%, basically EDIT: not at all what the change is about

[tight adder]

• Efficacious now additionally reduces damage taken when casting multi-turn spells
  it says multi-turn tho

[cedar skiff]

yes

[clear frost]

I am at work so I can't do the math. I believe this means the damage of multi-hit skills was normalized because it used to be higher EDIT: Still very wrong about the change

[tight adder]

oh i see the passive says "Spell Casting Damage: -40%" that means that when we use like Fey Cataclysm for 2 Turns we will receive 40% less damage?

that's nice 😮

[clear frost]

I haven't tested enough. It should be tested

[tight adder]

ok i tested in cactus, and i don't have gear,
I was receiving from 1,1k - 1.6k from arrowstorm vs cactus

when i was casting fey cataclysm, i was receiving a maximum of 800-850, and minimums of 600 or something ,

this make fey catastrophes and ultima not being 2T interesting if you want to go full crit, maybe if in the future there's some 2T spells added that are like AoE with high damage, Or if Fey Catas get buffed after the patch to be 2-Turned, the passive will be nice, i don't see the use in Hordes atm tho, but it's a interesting addition for Raids i think, I leave that to the Number Experts

[clear frost]

my goodness, I completely misread

let me edit my posts

[tight adder]

9 turns and my T.Def went away (might've been luck)
I'll check what's the minimum i can get

[clear frost]

Now that I understand, I think efficacious has a lot of PvP potential

won't help vs. turn 1 kills, but what does

[terse topaz]

Interesting efficacious change, still situational but more is more

[clear frost]

yup, no complaints from me

in raids it will also help vs. ults

[terse topaz]

That's not

[clear frost]

or just in general TBH

[terse topaz]

You have it backwards

[clear frost]

entirely possible hahahaha

[tight adder]

7 turns and T.Res fade
6 Turns and T.Res faded
6 Turns and both faded
7 Turns and T.Def faded
5 turns and T.Res Faded
4 turns and T.Res Faded

so it seems that 4 was the least one i was able to get

[clear frost]

I am reading as "when you are charging a spell, you take 40% less damage". Is that incorrect?

[terse topaz]

That's correct

[tight adder]

yes

[cedar skiff]

yes, so it would help with raid ults

[terse topaz]

Maybe I misundertood you then, sorry. Sounded like you thought we would take less damage from multi turn attacks

[tight adder]

i mean, if something hits you for 100k, it will hit you for 60k :x

[clear frost]

No problem!

[tight adder]

i didn't thought about that!

[cedar skiff]

i think they meant if you're caught by an ult while casting

[clear frost]

Good to have clarified it fully though

[terse topaz]

Yeah this seems like what they meant

[clear frost]

can confirm

[tight adder]

if we cast a multi turn against a capped kingdomraid, will we receive 5,999,999-ish :v?

[thorn grove]

simple but wonderful 10/10 This will help with survivability

And corvus get some defense

[terse topaz]

Is there a specific niche this change is targeting? Because raiding wasn't our problem before

[tight adder]

you might die less to morri :v

A.Morri

[terse topaz]

It helps if we are casting non-QC ultima or fey spells or anything of course

[tight adder]

like divine bastion

[clear frost]

let's also remember to try and put ourselves in the shoes of newer players

[terse topaz]

Raiding just isn't something we need help with though

[tight adder]

although wonder if that is included in "spells"

[terse topaz]

Yeah DB would count. Everything is a spell

And/or skill

[tight adder]

mmm i dunno, on waygates, sometimes the only thing that kills us due to our class, is the ultimate abilities

or even in normal raids, you survive fine against the normal skills but the ultimates deals just right above your hp+ward bars

[terse topaz]

Being a little better at raiding surely wasn't the purpose

[tight adder]

unless you are AL 150 xD

[tight adder]

ok, you might win against a CS skill that deals 50-80k damage because now you'll receive 30-52k :x

in pvp (although i don't really care about pvp :x)

[clear frost]

fair. Maybe. It still helps with using multi-turn spells in PvP or even against harder opponents where you need M1 (berserk mobs in anguish anyone?)

or endless, even

[terse topaz]

What multiturn spell are you casting

[tight adder]

dunno... ultima, or w.e comes to your mind xD

divine bastion if you want :v

[cedar skiff]

this should/can be seen as a survivability tool across the content board. Inflection should allow some t1-3 survivability, while Efficacious can happen in anywhere DB/Ultima, feys are used

[terse topaz]

Yeah I can see db being cool with this

[hushed marlin]

Strikes of ursa viable before gta6

[terse topaz]

Inflection doesn't give an extra turn though

[tight adder]

would it be better if it didn't apply first turn, but rather "a turn after casted"? probably not because you kinda want that "shield" when you see the "enemy is casting...."

[terse topaz]

Seems a little weak for a turn

[urban delta]

My mind is spinning at the possibilities here. I've never really thought about using multi-turns. Very interesting

And since HCorvus doesn't have Efficacious it doesn't have anything to conflict with Crit Poise which is also cool

[terse topaz]

Taking a turn to get Barrier 2 that costs a flask does not seem worthwhile

[thorn grove]

this grants more survivability in the buffing phase on anguish

[cedar skiff]

you don't have a full flask on t1

[urban delta]

And since the damage is reduced it doesn't overtune Parry or similar abilities

I look forward to trying this out

[thorn grove]

Finally Celestial Arrow has some potential use here

[tight adder]

Celestial Arrow getting more and more potential 😛

[thorn grove]

good m1 and now this damage reduction:)

[tight adder]

yeh

[terse topaz]

Sorry I don't understand... is Inflection flask supposed to give a turn with a full flask?

[thorn grove]

They are more multi turn spells that can crit?

[tight adder]

ultima 2 :v

[thorn grove]

Im mixing 100 verbal times but whatever

[tight adder]

long forgotten child :v

would inflection be too broken if it actually gave ++ instead of + tho?

[clear frost]

I believe the implication is that, as of right now, all the flasks that give an extra turn do so only when a full flask is consumed. So even if it did give an extra turn it wouldn't change anything in the context of turn 1 setup

[terse topaz]

Sure but what we have now is "temporary Barrier 2 for the cost of a flask"

I don't see the usefulness in that

[clear frost]

Per Odie's answer to your question above for the ability's niche, the primary objective is to improve turn 1 survival rates

[terse topaz]

Why would I cast Barrier 2 turn 1

[tight adder]

but you'll be using an extra turn if you use it to attack or something

[clear frost]

I agree but, just to be devil's advocate, what do you currently cast turn 1? Probably an offensive spell, right? To reduce number of enemies. That is what I do.

Whe the enemy count gets lower, that's when I start setting up but I sometimes need a little boost

[tight adder]

in hordes yes, in raids pure buffs for some turns

[clear frost]

I can see myself using it TBH

[tight adder]

would it help in pvp? i don't really look for long-battles tbh

[terse topaz]

Why would you use up a flask to cast a spell that you already have access to

[clear frost]

Bloodloss into Inflection, then offensive buffs

it's not either or for me. it's all of it.

I don't have a spell that gives me both t.def and t.res in one turn

I will test it. I can see the argument both ways.

[terse topaz]

But you have barrier 2, which is the same effect. You can stack the temp buffs on top of it of course, but in what content is that useful

[tight adder]

would it work with sigils? like Sigil -> inflection -> Vesta (i don't think the sigils should fade)

[cedar skiff]

the feedback this addresses is that of folk dying during the buffing phases. you're just not going to need it in content where offensive t1 is the priority

[terse topaz]

What I'm trying to understand is how it would be useful to use inflection instead of casting barrier 2 if inflection takes a full turn

[clear frost]

I do think that is a fair question

[terse topaz]

There is a long list of buff spells I would cast before using inflection

[tight adder]

maybe making it ++ but less guaranteed turn could be better ???

although that's basically golem, which would fall in the same mentality i guess 🤷

i see it's uses for long battles instead of T1 but that's me

[terse topaz]

If it was ++ at least it might be worth it to stack them

Golems plus inflection++ would give a significant increase compared to just inflection+

[cedar skiff]

++ is an option if they don't stack well enough to get you through the phases. the guarateed duration was what was meant to be the niche over other options (+ no mana cost)

[terse topaz]

No mana cost is a detriment in the buffing phase

Barrier 2 has an infinite duration

[clear frost]

I agree with no mana cost as a benefit comes into play later than turn 1.

[terse topaz]

It also costs a flask

Flasks are more valuable than mana, no?

[cedar skiff]

i don't think it's directly comparable as partial flasks give use

[tight adder]

is each 25% a turn for inflection?

[terse topaz]

That's true but I still don't see a benefit in using it at the moment.

• Takes the same turn as casting golem's or barrier 2
• Duration is limited
• Does not help with Iconoclast
• Does not significantly increase defenses
• Costs a flask

[clear frost]

Unlike with other effects, I think this argument can happen without much testing because we know what the effects do and can compare them with equivalent, permanent spells.
Would t.def/res+++ be out of the question? That is in fact something we don't have access to

[terse topaz]

The only upside I see is that it stacks with Barrier 2

[tight adder]

i wouldn't use it instead of barrier, i would use it AFTER barrier

[clear frost]

That would make inflection into DB a lot more appealing

[terse topaz]

Exactly

But before using inflection, you would at a minimum use:

• Ward of Ortanite
• Golem's Fortitude
• Barrier 2

You would also benefit a lot more from using the mana burn flask than inflection

[hearty bough]

Hi dad and brothers

[tight adder]

HAra doesn't have Mana Burn

not manaseep nor bloodloss

[cedar skiff]

ok let's do ++

[void ridge]

OP, nerf please ||||

[terse topaz]

That would make it more interesting for tanky builds and just generally being tanky in horde content

[tight adder]

nice

[tiny arch]

Whos getting the ++ flak?

Corvus?

[clear frost]

No. Base and Ara

[tiny arch]

Better endless then?

[clear frost]

yeah, I do think that is an application of it

that one I won't be able to test though

[tiny arch]

I forgot most base flaks but im feeling omnimamcy spells + scroll could be sick

For endless that is

[clear frost]

Well, maybe

The current build requires sequencer

I don't think alternatives have been explored yet

[tiny arch]

Some scrolls proc multiple status effects. So heretic seems much tankier at endless

[modest sierra]

Chronomancer + scroll for endless?

[clear frost]

What would you use for damage? We currently use Ultima

so we need Oceanus Lungs + Sequencer

[modest sierra]

Old build spells, Fey V?

[clear frost]

not trying to give sass to anyone. Geniunely curious.

[tight adder]

Fey V aren't as stronk to be very usable in "deep endless" i think

maaaaaybe

idk

[clear frost]

Some Arcane-based builds do exist, though they require ALs and good amities

[hearty bough]

Corrupt ultimate 🥲

[clear frost]

my first instinct is "elemental seals" with Apo X staff

[hearty bough]

New spell pls

[modest sierra]

Fey omnimancy spells?

[clear frost]

Actually, Finesse Epee + Bulwark + Amity for 30% is probably good enough M1 and damage

the latter can probably be sacrificed for accessory effectiveness for farming vs. depth

[brisk salmon]

Wow. I finally get to use they fey spells. Maaaaan I’m pumped

[clear frost]

Elaborate?

(I've been using them plenty with Weaved Elements XD)

[tiny arch]

I enjoyed doing omnimancy endless back then. Good m1. HP regen and weak mobs to an element take extra damage

[clear frost]

Floor 98 of an endless dungeon against a zerk fallen freyja.

Not sure if it is impressive or not, but figured I'd share

Floor 121 Immortal Lord 0'd out

Floor 133 Fallen Realm at 2/3 health 0d out. Interesting

still died to a random berserk mob due to a miss lol. I should have used mana ray. Still, pretty aimless attempt at endless with not-that-great gear (in my opinion), and made it to floor 178

And a lot of it was from knowing I could hit something when I accidentally procc'd mystic feather or was berserk, buff my defenses, or use Ultima without fearing the charge turn as much

I am not fully sold on inflection yet, but I believe it is useful

I am much more excited about the change to Efficacious

The gear in question

flasks were charging faster than I needed them so the scroll was probably overkill

an Arisen Shield would have been more useful

Spec was tamer to get AP to act consistently

[daring sand]

Sooo... Do the Efficacious -40% damage work if 2 turn spel be cast in 1 turn? 😒

[clear frost]

don't know. Probably not?

[terse topaz]

Doubt it

The efficacious change is neat but I don't know how many viable multi-turn spells we'll be using in content where we struggle. 40% reduced damage is great but we aren't really doing that anyway if we risk dying... it will probably be most helpful in non-QC Ultima builds

[clear frost]

what I set out to test with this was "is using Ultima when I face a Fallen Bserker Mob a viable strategy?" I think I discovered the answer is sometimes, but probably not.

[daring sand]

It can be good for early game

[clear frost]

but it does extend the amount of time I don't have to worry about them

and with that I would expect my average endless depth for any given build should improve as well

[terse topaz]

You should run sequencer in endless if you're relying on Ultima, too risky not to

[clear frost]

I'm sure, but that wasn't the point

of this experiment anyways

the idea was to see if, if forced to for some reason I needed to cast a multi-turn spell, would efficacious have a positive effect

or rather, a meaningful positive effect

sample size 2: yes, up to a certain point

[terse topaz]

Yup about 40% positive effect 😎

[clear frost]

The above gear is better than your average fresh t10 or even fresh t11 player, but at AL0

I cannot remember how deep I was able to go in endless before I ascended, and I was already AL 15ish when I reached level 250

[clear frost]

yeah. Adding "meaningful" to that sentence was necessary

Basically, if 60% of the damage the mob deals is still >my HP + remaining ward, then the 40% doesn't matter

Of course the answer with endless will always be that it stops being helpful at some point, so I just wanted to get a feel for how deep I can delve using "basic tools"

[daring sand]

it will be...

[clear frost]

eventually, yes of course

I also wasn't using any zerks. I probably should have been

and I don't have prom hands. I am sure prom hands would have been better here

etcetera. This is not an experiment on build-theory crafting

What other benchmarks of usefulness do you all think could be performed on the changes?

[daring sand]

As I can tell, -40% damage with a long cast is good early game, or early t10. In raids. When you already have 2-3 turn spells, but not enough tools to effectively implement them...

In the late game you can shorten your turns or be more defensive, so it's not as useful anymore, although it can help.

But I don't see any real use outside of raids. 2 turns in PvP are two turns during which you can be killed twice. In normal dungeons it's not needed, in endles - it will only help on the initial floors, etc.

But if it works even if you reduced the cast time to 1 turn... 😏

[terse topaz]

Well, doesn't look like we will lean into the elementalist aspect anymore, and it doesn't look like we will change much regarding pvp - guess that's probably about all the changes we're getting

[urban delta]

Elementalist, maybe, but I think most will be surprised at the effectiveness of 40% damage reduction in PvP - also freeing you to not just do a quickcast if you want to try it out

[scarlet pawn]

Using a Quickcast build helps fill your Ward pretty quick via DB or Mend Wall III/III. Then use Ward Flask Infusion to fill up. Or just start off with that.

If your follower and gear can give you the buffs you need while you're doing that, it might have some potential. Maybe.

[hearty bough]

Dad said he was gonna go out to buy some milk

[dusk osprey]

Important question: will the "guaranteed turns" continue thru a floor change?

[tawdry solar]

It count as steal/gain additional turn so i guess no?

[tight adder]

I found that 4 turns was the minimum, so might as well try and see if you can get 1-3?

[scarlet pawn]

I'm going to guess no, since the Infusion effects reset each floor.

Any idea if this is intentional? I don't really need Bloodflasks once my Mana is low (using base Heretic here).

[clear frost]

It has been mentioned, and I believe it was even reported as a bug

One that is definitely a bug is that you have no flasks when you exit a dungeon with a class, swap to heretic, then enter again

And I don't mean the flasks are 0 charge; the charge is fine. The flask UI is just gone

Fixes itself after clearing the floor

[scarlet pawn]

Yeah, the same happens with Apex currently.

[clear frost]

No, seems not. I've had buffs go away on turn 2 and then turn 3 when advancing floors

[echo kiln]

Remove that flask button and put a 4 or 5 slot space for flask skills along with a button to increase the mana flask and decrease the blood flask, the opposite is also possible. After that, in the blood flask, every time you deal damage and/or recover HP, the blood flask goes up (the mana and blood flask skills can be used by both, but in the blood flask you use a little more than one flask)

sorry for the bad english

[clear frost]

I want to bump this issue. The flask is much more situational if it cannot be reliably expected to last accross dungeon floors.

[cedar skiff]

heh, i'm working on that and the infusions not sticking at this very moment

[clear frost]

the infusions sticking around will also make them a whole lot more interesting. Good to know!

[cedar skiff]

fixes are live now

[terse topaz]

What about flasks charging empty flasks before completing the existing charge on a different flask

Is that really intended?

[clear frost]

that is consistent with the description of how flasks charge that is implied by flask infusions

flasks always charge from the left to the right

[terse topaz]

Why

[clear frost]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[terse topaz]

Yeah hence my question

[clear frost]

I'm just saying the descriptions are consistent

I'm reliably getting 4+ turns on a full flask and can confirm that infusions carry over between dungeon floors

so I am pretty sure the fix works!

[terse topaz]

What description implies this?

[clear frost]

the infusion skills

quick note - the infusion skills also carry over from tower encounters to the next. I don't have a monument near me so I can't test but I imagine the same will be true there

[cedar skiff]

yes, it should be

[clear frost]

That will be something to keep track of. Personally I would consider it a bad move from a player to do this.
I am not opposed to there being "bad moves" to take, but a stumble that can severely reduce the usefulness of flasks in towers might be a tad too harsh.

If there is a way to separate those then it is my opinion that it would be a good idea to do so

other opinions here would be very welcome

[waxen furnace]

clarifying my understanding. flasks should behave like apex in towers now between packs?

[clear frost]

that has always been true

[waxen furnace]

oh okay

[clear frost]

what has changed now is that if you use, say, mana flask infusion, now all your flasks are blue and none of them red for the rest of the tower

[waxen furnace]

interesting

[terse topaz]

I know this has already been brought up before but I can't see a reason for flask charge to behave like this other than it being annoying to recode

[cedar skiff]

i don't know why it would need to be recoded lol

still on the todo

[terse topaz]

Great to hear!

[dusk osprey]

Ooh, ditto for the case of using infusions - if I have half a bloodflask and half a manaflask and use infusion, I should probably have a full flask

Oh, I suppose I should ask - is there an increase in charge speed for Manaflasks & Bloodflasks vs. just Manaflasks or just Bloodflasks?

Might be a point to think of as capacity is less necessary than speed, Heretic Ara with 5 Manaflasks naturally would produce slower than Base/Corvus with Mana & Bloodflasks

[tight adder]

not that i'm aware, % per charge is the same for Ara vs Base/Corvus the difference is that base and corvus have 3/2

[clear frost]

The point that I think Konq is making is that when you have 2 types of flasks, you are charging them both at the same time

[dusk osprey]

oh, so some of the "charge" gained goes to Blood and some to Mana specifically?

[clear frost]

when you have 1, you are only charging 1 flask at any given time

I don't think so. At least it doesn't like it to me

[dusk osprey]

For ease of discussion, say I gain 1 "charge" in a turn - if I have 5 mana flasks, I get 1 charge of manaflask, but with 3 mana/2 blood, I get... 0.6 Mana 0.4 Blood?

if I get 1 Mana 1 Blood, something is wrong

[clear frost]

Bloodshade has done the most testing on charge rate other than Magnus, so I would defer to them

[amber ruin]

I also feel like it's a bit weird/counterintuitive as it currently stands. Why is the priority for filling from left to right? In this screenshot, flask number 1, which clearly has less charge compared to flask number 2, will be the one that fills first. Not prioritizing those closer to the edge makes it slower and less efficient.

[terse topaz]

It just shouldn't ever charge a flask other than the one that currently has some partial charge. You should never have two partially charged flasks of the same type; sounds like Odie will change that behavior at some point

[terse topaz]

Only charges manaflasks I guess

[amber ruin]

I don't know if I really understood after that, but...

If you have Corvus (has bloodflask and manaflask) and a scroll (2x more charge) when hitting a weakness with omniblast, you will receive a charge equivalent to 81% in the blue flask and 81% in the red fkask, a total of 162% charge.

If you use the same skill after a mana/blood infusion, instead of receiving +162% total charge, you will only receive 81%

[dusk osprey]

yeah not my favorite move - Ara, with only 5 Manaflasks, would only get that 81%

[terse topaz]

Oh I think I understand now. Ward flask infusion charges left to right because it intends to charge manaflasks before bloodflasks

[terse topaz]

So this is actually wrong - sometimes you may have partially filed flasks of the same type, if you convert flasks between mana aand blood while having partial charges of both types

In those spots it should fill whatever flask has the most charge, not whatever is leftmost

I wonder if ward infusion should also split between mana and blood in that case

Instead of only filling leftmost

[terse topaz]

I understand this concern as well now. Classes with a mix of the two flasks get more flask charge per move by virtue of charging both at the same time

I assume H.Ara lost bloodflasks at some point? The ability description states they can fill bloodflasks, but the stat lists only manaflasks

[amber ruin]

Mana/blood infusion, visually it's just changing the colors of what's filling each flask with charge

So if it is not changed, we will have to deal with this on a day to day basis, I mean, with incomplete flasks

[dusk osprey]

That is always how it was, going as far back as Alpha, just the flavor text is messy

[terse topaz]

Definitely hurts Ara to not be able to charge two flasks at once

[dusk osprey]

I would simply say - keep the flask charge the same as base/corvus is, just simply double Ara's flask gain

[hearty bough]

🥛

[tight adder]

So if something charges 30% it will charge 30% manaflask + 30% bloodflask

So Ara will only charge "30%" because it only has manaflasks

Sorry just quick hoped in

[clear frost]

Yeah. Ok that was what I had observed.

For the same reason, using blood or mana infusion slows down your charge acquisition

[dusk osprey]

which is not my favorite choice

[tight adder]

Infusion still converts the flasks or fills?

[dusk osprey]

Manaflask and Bloodflask Infusion set all flasks to their respective type, Ward uses your ward bar to fill flasks

[tight adder]

Ok so its still the same, i always thought it was intended to "fill the other one"

[tight adder]

But seems conversion is the way

[terse topaz]

If you wanted to fill 5 manaflasks or 5 bloodflasks the fastest, you'd want to have both mana and bloodflasks to start and only convert after charging them

It's all very finicky tbh

Lots of minmaxing for not a huge payoff

[tight adder]

Yeah, i actually stated that you lost your "advantage" over Ara due to the conversion not being reversible

I shared the info since i saw the infusions working like that, did i fail to share it as common knowledge D:?

[terse topaz]

Not sure but I really just think the easiest solution is to give Ara one bloodflask. If we really don't wanna do that, then infusions should also increase flask charge rate, and Ara should by default have increased charge rate

[tight adder]

That'll trigger ara to be able to use blood infusion

And maaaaaybe have bloodloss or bloodray

I would sacrifice repetition for bloodray or bloodloss

[terse topaz]

What do you mean?

Ara can already use bloodflask infusion

Oh.

That's kinda... not great

[tight adder]

Yeah ara doesn't have use for the infusions

Other than ward ofc

So yeah get rid of repetition , as an Future Ara to be, i want to use the vestas as much as i can

So i have more to look for Vestas than 2T+ spells

Although can be used with the new efficacious passive

Sooooo...

Get rid of repetition > give bloodloss or blood-ray... Or mana-seep , any of those are good imo

[dusk crescent]

Aligned flask also look weird for ara as well. I want to be spamming ara spell not using element spell

[tight adder]

True

[tight adder]

So no one has been checking Ara? xD

Corvus is the fave child :p

[tawdry solar]

Yeah, i tried this a while ago attempting to use manaseep on Hara 😂

[tight adder]

I stood there like " i dont even know what i was expecting" xD

[tawdry solar]

I kinda like the idea we can have a flask setup below the skill setup

it's much better than have a fixed set of flasks you can use, deity can setup their apex so please let us to that 🙏

[dusk crescent]

The most wonderful experience from this beta testing is slapping sigil on all enemy mob and following up by ara vestala.

Pure dopamine spike

[tight adder]

Indeeeed seeing the 5 sigils up there Oof 10/10

[clear frost]

Preposterous!

[tight adder]

how often would you use Repetition as a Heretic Ara xD?

[clear frost]

Well, I am using it as a crucial component of my raiding build to repeat Ultima II.
I am curious to know how others are doing so.

[urban delta]

Not just Ultima II but if you're raiding with Ward up and you get nuked the turn after you divine bastion, you can immediately fix the ward. There are definite uses

[tight adder]

for HAra? I would rather use Sigils -> Vestaga over and over

[tight adder]

oh weird I don't actually look of Repetition flask as something to use with "Ward Regen"

still i see more potential in Sigil->Vesta for HAra

for corvus/Base, sure

[cedar skiff]

Today's updates:

* Flask charging now prioritizes the fuller flasks```

[tight adder]

Byebye Mana-surge tho :p

[tight adder]

intended that bloodflask has no fill?

Seems so (y)

i think it's fair to lose mana-surge, I see more use in Sigil + Vestaga anyways (although it requires 2 ""taps"") and it also crits ,so it's basically our Blood-ray, the no fill for bloodflask I feel it's also a fair trade, 25% would be generous, and 50% would be probably too stronk against base and corvus, but what do you guys think?

and as always, bloodloss and manaseep look interesting, with bloodloss giving you the extra turn as well, you could try bloodloss + sigil + Vestaga/V4 and get more benefit that using spells to get your mana lower bit by bit. you can also go Manaseep, so while you're buffing you get stronk little by little and don't depend really in filling for bloodloss.

[hasty heath]

did ara also loose the alignment flask?

[thorn grove]

In Spanish, the translation to Manaseep flask is Frasco de ""Rezumado"" de mana. This word literally nobody uses it, the context of the spell is lost here in the translation.

It can be: Frasco de Fuga de Mana, or Frasco de Drenaje de Mana.

And, with blodflask is the same, but here the english version is misleading, because it says Blood, but no mentions to the mana loss.

In English it can be:

Mana Hemorrhage Flask

And Spanish:

Frasco de Hemorragia de mana.

Because, Bloodloss Flask sounds more related to losing blood rather than mana. It could make players think of a bleeding effect or something related to health instead of mana.

And since Blood Flasks are used to cast these flasks "Mana Hemorrhage Flask" fits perfectly because it keeps the blood related theme while clearly indicating a massive loss of mana.

Aaand the word Hemorrhage ties back to blood while also conveying a sudden and severe depletion ( in this case, of mana )

[brisk salmon]

No fuera Frasco de Sangre?

Nunca he visto el juego en español.

[thorn grove]

Bloodsloss Flask = Frasco de Perdida de Sangre

Manaseep Flask: Frasco de Rezumado de Mana

[tight adder]

Nunca habia oido la.palabra "Rezumado"

[thorn grove]

La tuve que buscar djdjjdjdjd

No sabia que era

Jajajajaja

[tight adder]

Pero tampoco "manaseep"

[thorn grove]

Eso es lo complicado

Mas que traduccion literal

Hacer que el significado sea el mismo

Para mi Frasco de Drenaje de Mana esta super en ese caso

Porque da a entender que se va drenando

[tight adder]

Cierto

[nova wharf]

Sangriendo no funciona, porque es un adjetivo

Bloody

No significa lo mismo en este caso

[tight adder]

Cierto

Mmm

[thorn grove]

Rezumado de mana pense en un pescado a la plancha no se porque

[tight adder]

Frasco de Drenado de Sangre?

[thorn grove]

Es que no drenamos sangre drenamos mana

Pero eso es mas problema del nombre en ingles

[nova wharf]

Pero eso lo tiene que cambiar Odie el de inglés

Justo

Ahora cambio yo el de rezumado

[thorn grove]

Frasco de Pescado a la plancha

[scarlet pawn]

I was hoping it was a trade with base Heretic, but now none of the T10 mages have the Aligned Sigilflask.

[hasty heath]

@cedar skiff please bring back aligned sigil flask, i liked that very much und wanted to try different Strategies with it 🥺

[tight adder]

ManaBurn flask :v

[jagged bane]

While we're on the subject of reworking, what do you think of changing the look of the heretic?

[cedar skiff]

Covyn's doing them all

#📡│hype for a preview of RS

[tight adder]

so far RS only been hyped, and it looks good, can't wait for Heretic/Hera (y)

[clear frost]

Mostly agree, but Hemo = Blood in latin. Confusion is still there.

Perhaps "Fuga de mana" could do the trick?

"Fuga" for manaseep, "Drenado/Drenaje" for Bloodloss

[nova wharf]

Nah, loss is pérdida, so it's ok for now

And we already corrected the manaseep with drenaje

[clear frost]

BTW: big fan of the spelunker's guild name in spanish. "Espeleología" is so fancy and proper

[jagged bane]

Something along those lines, but obviously adapted to the game.

[terse topaz]

Cool stuff

I am more interested in a tankier build of heretic with more options now. Divine bastion giving damage reduction via efficacious, inflection flask giving solid stat bumps both help that idea

Our defense stat will never be enough since we have 0 access to warrior gear, which makes sense but is unfortunate in pvp when BoF is so prevalent

But there are more options now which is great

[clear frost]

Agreed

[scarlet pawn]

I think Menja's gear covers Def rather well, and Golden Pinions exist, but it does mean giving up a lot of utility like Aaru Robe and still might not be enough, depending if it's live PvP or war/settlement defense.

[urban delta]

Don't forget the now has ward Fey Banshee Gear. Also Ruggerio's Armor and Helmet are okay for defense

[clear frost]

Thief gear is only very slightly less tanky than warrior gear anyhow. IMO

[tight adder]

What else do people think should me modified?

Or are we good :p?

[urban delta]

I'm chomping at the bit for this to drop but I would like to Aligned Flask to go to base for sure, and I certainly wouldn't mind it being returned to DAra if only for one more way to stack weaknesses on raids xD but by that token, Base will be plenty able to utilize that as well so...

Base having it feels like the pinnacle Omnimancy class.

Ara gets Sigils/AV go Boom

Corvus gets Crit Poise, Feather and thief gear

[dusk crescent]

• Base heretic should get aligned flask
• Inflection should give a free turn instead of guranteed duration
• Heretic corvus should get inflection flask too.

I think we are okay then.

[urban delta]

I'll push on the Inflection free turn one a bit - guaranteed duration keeps it up while you need it in long content/pvp situations. If it has a free turn, then you get it, use something else and it's liable to disappear immediately the following turn. Add to that - Blessed Shield into Gods of Aaru while wearing mostly Amorri Gear is actually a lot of defense for the first turn or two of combat. If your pet adds in t1 Def/Res or Barrier II or you berserk, that's a lot more defense than Heretic should probably get across a single turn/free turn combo

I wouldn't mind it on Corvus but I do think that might defeat the point via crit poise of tradeoffs between the classes

Of course just my opinion here

[dusk crescent]

Fair enough, you have a valid point for guaranteed turns.

I think inflection will work really well for corvus especially with crit poise to extend t buff duration. This synergy is solely lacking in the heretic class, compared to the synergy seen in other class (such as diety's staying power and deity t buff amd high tenacity/resurgence for thief)

[urban delta]

I do love the Inflection Flask though. Blessed Shield is one of my favorite pet moves in the game with the Steward Pegasus probably being my most used pet

[terse topaz]

I agree with Base getting aligned sigilflask, makes a massive amount of sense. For Corvus, we could replace Manaray with Inflection since it already has bloodray

[urban delta]

Give Corvus a "Skeleton" flask that summons one of those skeletons that is slightly more likely to block for you xD (yes I'm kidding)

[tight adder]

What if instead of align sigil it gets Align Blight :x?

[urban delta]

Sounds like potential event gear >:D

[tight adder]

Align sigil for base and take out which one?

[dusk crescent]

Oh One more important thing, flask usage by AI in pvp defense!

I have no idea how odie plan for AI usage of flask, but i hope we can choose how flask can be used like deity do for apex.

[urban delta]

Can base just get an extra flask option? that would be one more reason to pick it in lieu of the other two is just to have more flask options overall

[clear frost]

Of the mana flask options that are still there, I would personally take out Inflection flask on base, then repetition flask if push comes to shove. I don't think I'd be willing to part with manaray flask at all.
Of course, I would very eagerly and willingly give up on Banishment Flask without a second thought.

[urban delta]

I think from base I'd be most interested in losing Inflection for the sigils. But I also love the flavor of banishment flask

[dusk crescent]

Yeah, agreed. I dont mind losing inflection for aligned flask

[tight adder]

Then only ara has inflection?

[dusk crescent]

How abt this?
Base heretic - gain alignment, lose inflection
Heretic corvus - gain inflection, lose mana ray

Corvus alrdy have blood ray, which is better than mana ray since it can crit

[hearty bough]

Here’s your daily calcium dad… no need to go to the store 🥲
🥛

[tight adder]

Wouldnt more base heretics get more benefit from inflection tho?

[dusk crescent]

Perhaps... just up for discussion

Honestly imo, inflection is not really useful in most content

It can work with corvus's crit poise for longer content like certain raid and endless, but i fail to see its usefulness otherwise

[lilac yacht]

To me Inflection seems pointless, your going to get Defensive buffs but then you use up a turn which means the whole horde then go next, they'll either do damage to you or be 0 out, either way it would be more efficient just to kill them all

[hasty heath]

i'd like to have aligned sigilflask on ara back, i am not that interested in bloodflasks

[clear frost]

I like Bloodloss a lot, so for me the additin of one bloodflask was pretty good.
I have used inflection a bunch to try to get a feel for where it fits. I think that giving it the potential for an additional turn would make it much more useful. As it stands, it feels like it will see much less use than the other options.

As for Aligned Sigilflask, I echo others' sentiment in that it would be right at home in Base Hera and it would give the class that distinct flavor it currently lacks IMO.

I understand reluctance to put Inflection in Corvus. It would be very powerful indeed

So perhaps we could have two options:

• It remains as a flask that costs a turn. It is given to Corvus.
• It is changed to give an additional turn. Guaranteed duration is reduced or removed and it stays in Ara.

We would then have 3 pretty differentiated flavors of Heretic:

• Base: elementalist jack of all trades. Defensiveness as we know it today, through Mana Rush, Omnimancy, and Life Siphon, improved by flasks through Bloodloss and efficacious.
• Ara: celestial magic focus with a secondary focus on defensive ability through inflection, Omnimancy, and Efficacious.
• Corvus: fast, low setup damage with a focus on crit. Much lower defensive ability that is evasion-based.

[hard bay]

This is really solid.

[hard bay]

You guys think it's worth trying to GF an Arisen Morrigan's scroll before the identity patch drops? +100% manaflask charge rate seems very good.

[tight adder]

yeah why not?

[hard bay]

Large cort investment is the only reason for my hesitation

[nova wharf]

What % is it?

[tight adder]

align doesn't make sense to me for Ara

also isn't ele sigil like... 10%? 20%?

[amber ruin]

Spend 135 materials and put it at level 10, it will already help a lot, until you are comfortable spending 2k for DF (if there is a chance of someone being comfortable with this expense of COrta lol)

[amber ruin]

20% on what?

[tight adder]

the element

so Water sigil, increases damage taken by 20% or something iirc

[amber ruin]

If you have lightning alignment, I believe it increases lightning damage by 50% and decreases your earth resistance by 50%... The same goes for the other elements

Since the flask granted the opponent alignment equal to their faction, they received the elemental resistance debuff and a buff to elemental damage as well

[tight adder]

are we sure that's what it's happening ? xD, my damage is going from 4k to 4.8k xD against the cactus (i'll be checking with fire in a sec)

40k
38k
36k
40k
41l

fire sigil applied

45k
46k
48k
47k

yeah 10-20% damage increase 🤷

[amber ruin]

I just tested it and it's up by 50%, or something very close to it.

[clear frost]

There's a slight confusion here.
The elementa sigil increase damage 1.2 if I'm not mistaken.
Elemental Alignment does increase the corresponding element's damage by 1.5

I believe Bloodshade is talking about the former, and Makarov about the latter

[clear frost]

I didn't even know it was going to be +100%, but I did already GF mine hahaha

[amber ruin]

I used the pet apollyon sigil for the test, it may be that the flask alignment has a different buff/debuff

[clear frost]

Ah, Apollyon does not inflict an elemental sigil. It instead gives you elemental alignment

The flask applies to the enemy a sigil. Like the ones that Anubis casts

So yeah, you are both correct. Just talking about different things.

[amber ruin]

The flask grants alignment to the opponent, it shouldn't be any different 🤔

[clear frost]

"Alignment" is just a misnomer I suppose

I hadn't thought of it, but I guess it could be confusing

[tight adder]

with Lotan
24k, 24k, 22k, -> blight, 36k, 28k, 26k

[clear frost]

But no, the alignment sigilflask applies an elemental sigil to the opponent, which makes the opponent weak to that element.

[tight adder]

elemental alignment (self), and elemental sigil (opponent) are different iirc

[clear frost]

yes

actually, the name is pretty clear I think

It is called "Aligned Sigilflask"

I think the name communicates appropriately that it will apply a sigil, and that the sigil will be one you are aligned with (aka corresponding to your faction)

Makes sense to me.

[tight adder]

yeah

i remember that sigils were "okay"-ish

the good ones where blights and alignment(self)

[clear frost]

It is a lower multiplier but if we get to use it as part of our own toolkit without needing a specific follower I will absolutely take it

[tight adder]

ofc , but i'm falling in the part of "Ara doesn't need it"

[clear frost]

I would very much like to continue to have it, in fact

[clear frost]

I don't think Ara doesn't need it, but we have 6 slots to work with (it seems this is set in stone at the moment)

[tight adder]

with HAra you definitely want to be using your Ara spells not elemental ones

[clear frost]

So it is a balancing act of what can we give up to get it.

oh, sorry I think we are on the same page actually

[clear frost]

Yes I agree with this in part. Ara could certainly also use elemental spells, but having Base Heretic be better at it makes the 2 classes distinct, and I like that personally.

[tight adder]

yes

[hard bay]

176% : (

[clear frost]

Oh, oof. That's a harder sell. Definitely falls within the realm of "fake ornate"

[hard bay]

Yeah I just have no idea when I'm going to get another one tbh.

Maybe I'll make the final decision after the A. Morri event comes back this year in April (I think that's when it does)

[amber ruin]

Yep, I had misunderstood, actually the sigil that HAra had was that of Anubis and not that of Apollyon's Pupil... Therefore, I don't like that Heretic B has this flask either 🤔

[clear frost]

No Heretic classes have it, currently

to be clear

@hard bay , if it is easier to farm then the regular Morrigan Scroll is still pretty solid IMHO

full disclosure though: I godforged a Diabolus Robe because it was 200%. I am known to fall for the "shinies!" syndrome

[hard bay]

I feel that haha.

[amber ruin]

Yep, we got it removed from HAra, and I saw that there are people in favor of adding this flask to the Heretic base, but now I'm against this addition,
My thinking is that the marks aren't that useful these days, and by adding this to the Heretic base, Anubis will be much less attractive.

[clear frost]

well, agree to disagree I suppose.

Anubis' attractiveness has never been high, to put it very generously

[hasty heath]

i liked it on ara with it's build in dmg cap increase to increase dmg with elemental weakness ...

[clear frost]

If anything, it seems that a good chunk of us would like to see it back in some way, shape or form

And it's good to know also that some prefer it the way it is

I don't think that this thread should be assumed to represent all of the community, but it is what we have: an apparent majority of users here preferring to get aligned stormflask back and/or some changes to Inflection Flask to make it more appealing

[tight adder]

mmm i dunno i still don't see the potential of it, in comparison to the other flasks ofc, if it was blight, i could see it, 1.5x vs the 1.2x

[clear frost]

In relation to aligned sigil flask: I am only arguing im favor of it being added to Base Hera.

Needless to say, mine is just one opinion

It is possible my impression of there being a majority in favor of that is inflated.
You tell me.

[hasty heath]

very true

[terse topaz]

Are sigils different than blights??

[tight adder]

less damage

1.2x sigil
1.5x blight

[hard bay]

But, as mentioned above, it would be suuuuper cool to see event gear that changes Aligned Sigilflask to Aligned Blightflask or something along those lines.

[tight adder]

things i could see potential in gear

• flask spells
• charge rate
• charge power
• shenanigans like "less flasks but more power/rate"

[terse topaz]

I don't think that's true..

Are you sure?

[tight adder]

yeh

[terse topaz]

Both instances I dealt about 93k damage

Almost identical iconoclast

With the dark sigil, the phoenix even had DC

This is on live btw

[tight adder]

try more than 1 time, remember there's the min-max values

[terse topaz]

Yeah but you're saying there's a 30% difference

[tight adder]

try with a non iconoclast, like omnimancy

[terse topaz]

Oop hold on, I might have the answer

[tight adder]

Earth+earthblight

Sigil

[terse topaz]

Yeah I figured out my issue - my dark damage was boosted by achlys souls

Crazy that sigils are just bad

[tight adder]

so its 33-35k normal, 41-44k sigil, 51-67k blight

there might've been other things involved tho

[tight adder]

ah yeah

so yep, 20% sigil, 50% blight and 50%+ boost to self-align it seems

[tight adder]

so what do you think Konq? @dusk osprey feeling good about Heretic overall? does anyone else feels that something else should be changed? i feel we are in 90-95% done with the changes needed for the class, how does everyone else feels?

[dusk osprey]

to be honest, I was feeling good about Heretic before these changes, but I dig 'em nonetheless - I haven't been as active in here lately because of work and other stuff

[dusk osprey]

Feel free to @ me any time these changes happen so I can pin them, if they do continue

[tight adder]

odie hasn't appeared as of today, so i'm not sure if there's going to be changes for today but i'll keep in mind 😛

[brisk salmon]

I’m feeling better about it. Inflection was very needed. Some people don’t see the use, but they will eventually. I’d still love to see AI use them, but that’s about it. Other than that, it’s pretty much time

[clear frost]

I think it's great that the discussion has gotten to a point where we are using the building blocks of what is already there and reassembling them in our minds or slightly suggesting tweaks.
I believe most of us feel the update is ready to go. Put it out into the world and tweak it, up or down, based on a larger data set.

[tight adder]

@tawdry solar was one that actually made the beta have big progress with his/her comments, what do you think now of the identity?

[cedar skiff]

Sorry, event launch day 🙂

I must offer nothing today

[tawdry solar]

I haven't have a chance to test the new changes but i read them, we did get some good changes, add the reduce dmg when using multi turn spells for effecacious is nice, Hara getting blood flask is good too. I haven't check the Inflection Flask but i think it's a good replace for mana surge, we already have other AoE options
About balance the flasks and effecacious, this look like we've made some good improvements
About the shipment of the patch, i think we can wait a few more days for people to test the new changes. We waited years for the rework, we can wait few more days to make sure it's good

[tight adder]

Agreed

Looking forward to it (y)

[tight adder]

Oh true! February went so fast xD

[tawdry solar]

Odie is probably busy prepare for his Valentine date, we won't get anything for tmr for sure XD

[jagged bane]

What is the critical chance of A.Trev's archstaff and swasong skills?

[clear frost]

5%

[thorn grove]

New idea to flasks:

Beer ( mystical brew )

Heretic drinks this mysical brew, and gains INMUNITY to damage FOR 1 TURN . But, has a great chance to be aflicted by CONFUSION.

1 Beer ( Flask ) = 25% Chance of confusion
2 Beer = 40% Chance of confusion
3 Beer = 55% Chance of Confusion
4 Beer = 70% Chance of Confusion

Idea brought by this video i made months ago:

https://youtu.be/YV2Wa1RbSQE?si=sEFIiaePS2_7bIsY

[clear frost]

that's not a good idea

[thorn grove]

I see this like a final resource XD like, if you gonna get hit bi a big damage spell, you have the option to drink all yours flask to survive the attack, but youre aflicted with confusion and with 0 flasks afterwards

[thin stone]

it should feature the Ballmer Peak, where the second beer actually makes you more capable (t.mag^)

[terse topaz]

If it was 100% chance of confusion always, it would still be too strong

[marble prairie]

Hey yall, i think read scroll ability is quite useless, what about removing it and adding an unique flask skill for scroll?

[hard bay]

This might be a good final step before the patch goes live 👀

[clear frost]

Yeah, I had that on my list but I was so happy with the added ward that I kinda' forgot hahaha

to be fair - shields mostly just have defend or bastion. I would say that either of those is more useful than read scroll, but most people use neither anyway (save for stalling "The Wall" amity strats)

by which I mean that it is common for us to use offhands for their stats and not focus that much on its offhand ability

[dusk osprey]

Yeah as an Icono-class recovering mana might not be the play

[clear frost]

That aside - yes, I would absolutely love them to have some sort of interesting ability. Read Scroll is not that.

[dusk osprey]

make it Song of Magic!

[clear frost]

I would so use that

[dusk osprey]

and/or Sonata of Magic, but renamed to be less Bard-y

"Merlin's Chant" and "Merlin's Cast", maybe?

[clear frost]

I like this idea because it is a way to give some incentive to using skills that don't see much use otherwise.

[dusk osprey]

and saves on skill slots!

[clear frost]

yeah, it's effectively +1 skill slot

(for a skill you might not have chosen yourself, but hey, a slot is a slot is a slot)

[dusk osprey]

not that we're much struggling for them but hey a win's a win

[clear frost]

• it's really modular. New skills only accessible through scrolls can be created later. Then scrolls might become coveted by other classes without making them more efficient for mages

[scarlet pawn]

Ponder instead of Read Scroll? (Although I would definitely prefer Song of Magic)

[tight adder]

A skill that gives even faster charge rate for temporal turns

Overcharge or something

[marble prairie]

I think it should be elemental spell with a percentage of causing its elemental sigil

And it should only be in elemental scrolls

[scarlet pawn]

Most of those scrolls are low tier. As much as I'd like sigils from scrolls, I don't think sigils at ~T3 would be approved

[marble prairie]

In my opinion, we can make it aoe skill which provides a tool for early dungeoning.
About late game build, we have non elemental scrolls which are more suitable for it

[errant narwhal]

When does heretic forecast rework update to live server

[hasty heath]

i may sound like the same old song again, but i would like to have aligned sigilflask back in a way 🥲

[dusk crescent]

I am seeing a number of opinion expressing their flask preference for each sub class, and wonder if flask's restriction to their subclass can be removed.

That way we can play the way we wanted, players can play ara with alignment or inflection with any sub class etc

If apex can be used across all diety subclass i dont see why this will be an issue for us

[lilac yacht]

Sounds good

[hasty heath]

it really does sound good

[scarlet pawn]

I requested that a few times and it doesn't look like it'll happen, unless I've misinterpreted this comment

#1331673547210358794 message

[dusk crescent]

If so, thats disappointing

[clear frost]

Not sure about how many times I mentioned it, but yeah, same.

I am ok with it, kinda'. Just as long as some flexibility is introduced down the line, as was implied earlier.

#1331673547210358794 message

[daring sand]

I'll be honest. In my opinion, it would be better to "replace" the flasks with scrolls. Using spells from scrolls seems more logical and more in line with magicians than "spells in jars".

But I'm afraid it's too late for that.

[hard bay]

I have had this thought in the back of my mind this whole time.

[clear frost]

Do you mean like visually?

[daring sand]

At least...

[clear frost]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Magic potions are not less witchy/wizardy than scrolls IMHO

And I have always visualized my Hera as more of a witchy person; delving into the occult and forbidden arts.

From a graphic design/UIx perspective, it is probably easier to communicate your flask is filling up than a scroll charging up? IDK

[daring sand]

Preparing spells on magic scrolls sounds more logical to me. With flasks, I constantly have the feeling that this is no longer a magician but an alchemist. In addition, the scrolls will look in the theme if in the future there will be off-hand scrolls with new skills.

It is even possible to explain why they need to be charged in battle - we wrote down the spells on a scroll and during the battle the elemental magic surrounding us imbues them with power

And if (suddenly, someday) they make it possible to choose spells, you will get a "grimoire" with scrolls...

[clear frost]

Yeah, of course a valid opinion

No wrong answers when it comes to flavor

[hearty bough]

Heretics are ex warlocks for apollyon. Warlock is like witch. Witch uses cauldron for potions and stuff

[thorn grove]

we are the bad or good guys?

[hearty bough]

Uh I’m not sure xd

[daring sand]

Is this only for Heretics or all mages in the game? Because it's "mage identity", not only Heretics...

[hearty bough]

Specifically heretic

[dusk osprey]

when people stop complaining about it

[mossy fractal]

When the bottles get replaced with scrolls.

[urban delta]

Sharing this song feels relevant here - it's in good fun and heavily inspired by all of the rework threads.

https://youtu.be/ugPrMxU00-Q

[hearty bough]

Bruh even harry potter used potions more than scrolls

[daring sand]

Well. if people want to play as Harry Potter (by the way, did he graduate from Hogwarts? Otherwise I stopped reading this fairy tale after the Order of the Phoenix) then the flag is in their hands... I just voiced the minimum that will make me think that what will happen to magicians after the patch will be a magician and not an alchemist-potion maker...
🤷

[hearty bough]

Anyone got a raid thing? Video stuff

Wanna see heretic being op

https://tenor.com/view/cat-dance-slow-dance-cat-seductive-dance-cat-gif-18252461188131258451

[tawdry solar]

Flask sound like something for Alchemist or something a witch doctor would cook

[hearty bough]

Please share video of a raid

🥲

[trail marsh]

If we're at the point of going back and forth on whether it should be scrolls or flasks filling maybe it's ready to go live 😅 lol

[tight adder]

I still need to find my "the way"

[trail marsh]

I do agree with the others requests of flask restrictions being removed or at least tweaked in some way. Maybe it's not quite as effective on the base/sub class that it wasn't intended for? Idk

I see flasks as the identity itself as a whole not necessarily each sub class having it's own specific flask identity. A difference in stats and passives takes care of base/subclass identity imo

[jagged bane]

Launch this rework, I never asked you for anything kk it's good as it is.

[clear frost]

Don't ping Odie directly

[jagged bane]

Why?

[paper eagle]

#server-rules 7

[jagged bane]

Ok

[brisk salmon]

Yeah. I’m ready for this patch

[urban delta]

https://tenor.com/view/release-the-kraken-gif-14602611039161448443

[dusk osprey]

Here, let's do this a more formal way

Prioritize your thoughts on the patch itself rather than your want for it to be in production, please!

As much as a lot of you want it in production, it makes no sense if we're just impatient and it still needs cooking

[terse topaz]

There is more that I personally want from the patch, but I don't know how much is too much to ask. We've already mentioned that we want new omnimancy-type spells, to me that's a big one for the identity patch

[brisk salmon]

I think it’s good as is. Except for the AI thing. 🤔

[tiny arch]

Im late to the party but i need to know whats the diference between Mana ray and blood ray. They both seem like the same thing except one crits

[trail marsh]

I'd rather see the AI work with flasks before it gets shipped to live

[lilac yacht]

Is the AI just going to use a random flask if it's full?

[tiny arch]

Could we maybe have some sort of defensive flask for corvus? For example starting 1 mana flask full and 1 mana flasks that allows us to cast a sort of ward or ortanite (or 65% dmg reduction)?

I dont see anything unique about corvus and what i would use it for

[clear frost]

Crit poise, bloodray flask, are both strong differentiators

I was writing a whole thing, but it boils down to:

• The pvp AI needs some way to interact with flasks. It has been mentioned that the AI should use at least offensive flasks when able but I am yet to see it
• I really think allowing for some flask build flexibility would be great. I feel like there is no real need to drop flasks that were accessible along the class' path

[tiny arch]

Crit poise is cool. I think corvus would benefict of dodge chance based on mama loss, not HP

[clear frost]

None of these thoughts are original. I am echoing what has been said above.

[tiny arch]

This would also open the door for better anguish farm. Burn mana to 0 -> 60% Dodge -> despair spam

[cedar skiff]

AI should already be working with flasks, but the usage of each flask is quite situational (except for Rays)

If even the rays aren’t proccing, I’ll need to take a look

[brisk salmon]

Only wisp heal on load out. I’ll try a ward build with only Vesta. But AI doesn’t even have the flasks counter

[trail marsh]

Ran a few mirror fights yesterday and didn't get a single flask proc from the ai. I can change up some things or try to run an alt fight using a different class all together to see if they proc, but if they're that situational and rarely ever get used by the ai it seems kind of useless. The fight will be done with

[cedar skiff]

Will take another look after the holiday

[brisk salmon]

I’ll be honest. I don’t think they’re gonna help much, unless we can actually pick and choose them. And even then, they will never be a strategy. Just a help

[cedar skiff]

Ideally the AI should only use them when it’s guaranteed to help. ie: Rays for pen, banishment for vs many summons, etc

[waxen furnace]

Canadian Presidents’ Day

[jagged bane]

I understand the need to improve the AI but heretic is a Glasscanon, in a pvp he will die in the first turn on def, 1 out of every 100 battles it will be plausible to use the flasks, since heretic's damage will increase significantly after surviving with lastchance

So I think the changes have come and are useful and situational, but it won't change the heretic's game - he's still a Glasscanon, so defense isn't his focus, anywhere.

That's why I think the test is over and we'll only be able to see it in the game.

[terse topaz]

How would the AI know to use ray for penetration? Is it going to run calculations on what will do the most damage at any given time?

How would flask charge play into this? Would it just never use a flask if the charge isn't 100%? None of these options are great and it would be better for us to be able to control which flasks the AI is allowed to use

I'd literally rather disable all flasks than have all flasks enabled. There is very little chance the AI will be good enough to make that worthwhile

[dusk crescent]

Given the current state of AI, i would rather have the one of the following option:

• let us choose which flask can be used in pvp
• disable all the flask as a whole

[brisk salmon]

Disable flasks? On defense?

Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but what would be the point of that if AI doesn’t use them?

[dusk crescent]

Flask are not very helpful in pvp.

And given the current state of the AI, i would not trust them to use the correct spell at the right time.

But thats another matter all together.

[cedar skiff]

AI issues should be resolved now

[hushed marlin]

AGI achieved

[urban delta]

Ran a couple times on Corvus and when Feather activated, the AI was ignoring spells to use no-miss flasks

Neat! pssst @brisk salmon

https://tenor.com/view/bhibatsam-bahubali-prabhas-team-work-gif-22045322

[jagged bane]

It lost in numbers by choice, but won in votes in favor of implementing rework.

[cedar skiff]

21 vs 16 - not quite the margin i would like to see before launch

for the "Disagree" crowd - what is the #1 (quick) item that needs to happen to move to "Agree"?

[jagged bane]

I have to agree that I expected a better margin for the launch, but apparently they still think it needs something more.

[hasty heath]

for me it was the comeback of aligned sigilflask, but i am in no position to give a true opinion, cause overall i am just excited to try heretic on live

[jagged bane]

I voted for the release, but I think that bloodloss winning 1 turn would always be a great help for heretics in towers, and Anguish dungeon

[daring sand]

Minimum for me - replace flasks visual on scrolls and/or make more flasks available at the start of a fight.

[cedar skiff]

hmm..."replace flasks visual on scrolls" - could you help me understand this one?

[waxen furnace]

seems like an aesthetic disagreement rather than a functional one

[daring sand]

I don't like the idea of ​​using potions. It's like we've become alchemists instead of the mage identity. Scrolls are more in line with the idea of ​​the mage identity. My suggestion is to make scroll icons instead of flask icons.

[cedar skiff]

I'll note that, but i don't think that'll be something we would delay launch for

[daring sand]

Well, I was ready for this. I just expressed what most appeals to me about the update...

[urban delta]

Looking at the names of those who voted disagree and contributed in the discussion, I've seen:

-Freedom to use any Flask/customize Flask loadout
-Mystic Feather being off of mana for Corvus
-Inflection Flask on Corvus
-Fey/t10 Omnimancy spells
-Give Alignment Sigil Flask to base Heretic
-Visual scrolls vs Flasks
-More flasks available at start of fight

As the posts from several of them

But I am not them so I can't speak for anyone else

[hasty heath]

nice one

[daring sand]

you missed - more flasks available at the start of a fight.

[tiny arch]

For me the Disagree comes from mana surge being useless on corvus. Inflation suits much better. I feel like starting with 1 flask, casting inflation flak, getting another turn and attacking while having some way to survive a big punch is perfect

[urban delta]

Which one??

Mana-Ray?

[tiny arch]

Yea mana ray

[urban delta]

I wouldn't call it useless because it does decent damage and is a nice emergency button in endless and pvp (albeit you lose crit poise) but by that same token, having to re-inflection Flask on Corvus also makes you lose crit Poise if the Buffs go down 🤷‍♂️

Not opposed to the swap since Corvus also has Bloodray, just don't personally think that's enough to delay er.

[tiny arch]

Im hoping heretic can still be changed after going live. In that case i think its ready for launch

[scenic vale]

I agree with most of those, i'd like to have more freedom on which-flasks-i'd-like-to use-where(especially for pvp defense. meaning ai). Corvus does not have second chance, meaning that we have to survive to activate mystic feathers, which wont happen if i get sent to the moon from a single SS. Alignment flask was niche but nice to finally be able to put lotan away, on the other hand banishment flask is too niche to even be considered useful, considering the actual state of summoner too. If pre t10 classes have issues with that is fine but there's no reason to use them once reached the endgame so i'd rather have something else.

I still think that the 2h rework has done more that this identity will ever do, keep in mind that i'm not really fond of the current iteration of flask as a whole.

[urban delta]

Realmshifter has Mystic Feather already and can still PvP. HeraCorvus doesn't need to be the endless, tower, Horde, Other Realm and PvP master 😅

Per banishment, I understand the niche use but it's exactly the kind of Silver Bullet Heretic wants. And as the "master mage" class, snapping your fingers and dismissing your opponents' weak summons is awesome

I understand the freedom of flasks part... but at that point there is the Deity class with their customizeable Apex Arsenal, gear flexibility, and Staying Power to boot

Alignment I agree I'd like on Base. But I also don't think anything should really hold this back.

We've seen tweaks before post rework and gear added to shore up problems or weaknesses too.

But again, I'm just one me. I really want to be able to use all the Flasks, AVs, and Crit Poise in live. I also like the flask restrictions per class 😅 they're a ton of fun on beta.

Rename Inflection Flask to "Blessed-Shield Booze" jk jk

[scenic vale]

Welp, there's a class that excels at all content without basically any drawbacks, i dont see why we can have some fun too just because last identity patch was too good.

I dont agree on the silver bulled part, is a silver bullet that is never needed really that useful? Love the concept but not the implementation, at least give it some beast taming to give beo some love too . But again, i still wouldn't use it ever, it's easier to just hit the summoner/raid/boss.

You're right on this, currently deity is just a better choice on all fronts ever after all those changes, maybe it will change with cs/ranger patch.

[cedar skiff]

To be frank, the more we look at other classes, more inclined we are to lose identity - to be more like that other class.

This is an identity patch, after all. not a balance patch. If we keep our thoughts focused on the class at hand, we will have a better result

[urban delta]

Have you played Heretic on the beta? It is quite fun. Corvus becomes an Endless monster that can also keep Buffs up for towers or hordes paired with AVs or even a swansong

Ara makes big ol fireworks with AVs and Sigils

And Base will be a solid PvP contender with a decent Flask options for an all rounder.

Like they all feel like they have builds and things to try and work with and each one feels pretty well defined as its own flavor of the same class.

[scenic vale]

I tested some, but didnt really have the time to do a deep dive. I'm not really impressed with flask, i dont think i'll ever use most of them cuz they are too slow(except bloodloss, which isnt even necessary in all contents) or underwhelming. The passive are fine too, love crit poise, efficacious and finally the mana cost reduction is gone.
We still won't be able to do well in what we lacked in, but i guess i just need more als.
I'll just stop here, i'm not really contributing to the discussion with my thoughts.

[tiny arch]

Have you been doing endless the way you did with Dara? Temp buffs and buff duration?

[urban delta]

I ignore the Buff duration and put more pet act and magic on when running it on the beta. Rotating Gullinkambi, the Titan I cant think of the name of, and Themis/Phoenix whenever an important Buff fell off

t.Dex 3 from Gullinkambi
t.Def/Res 1, 2 and 3 from the titan (and some ward recovery)
DC from Themis/Phoenix

But I'd usually go a good ways before one of those fell off. I also used Discouri Mead for t.Crit 2

[tiny arch]

I didnt mirror on beta so now i cant wait to try endless corvus. Bring the update!

[mossy fractal]

Blood is typically associated with Health in video games.
Can we please either rename Bloodloss Flask to something mana related, or make it drain HP too?
HP drain would synergize with Mystic Feather.

[cedar skiff]

it was HP + Mana, but become Mana only as the HP part wasn't jiving

[tiny arch]

How likely is it the update droping by the weekend?

[hearty bough]

Probably 6

Or alligator

[cedar skiff]

Monday launch?

[urban delta]

Today launch? 😁 hahaha

[tiny arch]

Friday would be awsome

[cedar skiff]

Friday launches are not typically seen, as we'll be out for the weekend right after

[brisk salmon]

Yeah. I want it now 😩

[urban delta]

Would today work or even tomorrow so there are still a couple of days you guys can tweak things if needed?

[brisk salmon]

😬😬😬

[cedar skiff]

we've got enough on for this week unfortunately

[tiny arch]

Monday is fine

[cedar skiff]

(and i'd want to give the community sufficient notice)

[hasty heath]

(and 'we' need to give aligned sigilflask a t10 comeback? 😉🤣 [sorry])

[scarlet pawn]

I can't seem to get past the identity argument against flask selection because it would introduce a level of customization that the other classes do not have with their defining abilities.

I don't believe it's merely the same as equipping skills & spells either since the flasks have somewhat specific or situational uses that others don't have an answer for (or don't need an answer for, rather). There's also so much room for new flasks as previously mentioned and it's all contained in this ability. Our ability.

But otherwise... Let the drinking begin!

[trail marsh]

I'm still not seeing the AI select flasks all that often. Mirror fights with av2/chakram and I see mana ray flask get used at most twice during extensive fights but usually just once. Was able to fill the field using summon dead and never once had the banishment flask cast

[clear frost]

You know what. This actually convinces me pretty thoroughly. I think you have a great point: flasks are not the same as skills.

I will test AI in a moment as that was my other, bigger, hold-uo.

If the AI triggers flasks in certain situations frequently then I would change my vote from disagree to agree.

@urban delta has it right. The AI was smart enough to catch me using mystic feather and went for Bloodray

Seems like Mana and Blood ray flasks are likely to be used after the AI misses. This is pretty much what I would do if I was fighting only knowing the outcome of my actions (and not knowing the opponent), so for me this makes a lot of sense.

[cedar skiff]

I see flasks closer to passives - they are somewhat playstyle defining and help promote differences between classes/celestials.

and, as passives are not customizable, neither are flasks

[clear frost]

I see it that way now, too.

My only concern (what would push my now-agree vote to strongly agree) is that I don't see as clearly now how/if gear could interact with the passive.

I lack imagination, maybe XD.

Anyways, I understand that any plans that may or may not exist cannot be shared now on that note, so minor/low priority concern

[dusk crescent]

Would it be too much to ask for some equipment change with our identity flavour?

The god's items are updated with diety flavour along their identity release. Same goes for some non event items along gilga's colleteral dmg release

[scarlet pawn]

I think we'll have to wait on future events for more than the updated scrolls.

A little extra on the Heretic Robe would be appreciated, though 😅

[dusk crescent]

Ah. You are right about the scroll

I forgotten all abt them 😅

[tawdry solar]

My AM scrolls is ready at lv10 :))

[cedar skiff]

scrolls were a pretty massive gear change, for sure

[thorn grove]

Merlin gear is a good candidate

[dusk osprey]

On release, Apex had the god class weapons as well as the fallen T8 class gear for Apex

I think scrolls in themselves are a relatively equal amount, especially since they're spread across tiers vs. Apex all being T8-T10 by nature of god classes

The door is/will be opened for more later down the line imo (Merlin, Trevelyan, Aaru etc.) like there was with Hippogriff

[brisk salmon]

I feel almost like it’s asking too much…oh but how much I’d love that that robe wouldn’t be so punishing.

[clear frost]

It is going to mostly be downside now, too

Since its accelerates bluelining is not as necessary anymore

A small boost to efficacious would make it very interesting

As a wardless piece that increases efficacious' DR and/or damage done to immume foes

[jagged bane]

As I've already said, I just miss the fact that some vials like "bloodloss, sigils" and others always receive an additional turn regardless of the charge, since they already have a chance of failure, this would be very useful and interesting, in addition to some skills like Ultima that I think could exist in the mage class, I miss a skill that really belongs to the Heretic, since the ones we all use are deity, seals, ultima, etc. It will be a lot of fun when mages have their own skill that is useful, like the celestial Arrow, which is a good idea, but the whole omnimancy part was abandoned in the T9 line.

The heretic line in t10 has not received skill support for omnimancy, I would find it interesting to have a Fey celestial fire, mixing sacred and fire, fey dark Thunder... Which are things that are the face of the Heretic but don't exist today

[modest sierra]

I don't think anyone would be against Heretics Robe to not be so punishing since we're losing The Heretic passive

[thin stone]

Heretic's Robe gets tons of use already, why buff it? 🤔
Approximately zero people used scroll offhands so it makes sense to give them some love.

[modest sierra]

Maybe I'm using (or not) it wrong, I agree with scrolls getting a buff is much deserved. I just figured with the removal of The Heretic passive, it would be nice to not get punished as badly for using the robe, but then again, Despair and Brilliant Lights II are AOE now

[cedar skiff]

mana cost aside, it's still probably the best offensive torso slot piece in the game

[terse topaz]

Heretic robe punishes? The increased mana cost is great in a ton of content

It's all upside for iconoclast. I still don't use it often because it has no ward and extremely few slots

The extra offensive power of heretic robe is often not worth losing all those adorn slots and extra survivability

[jagged bane]

In my opinion, its offensive power is what draws the most attention, so much so that the aaru hood, a Full Mag item, is used in dgs. I think it's very fair and I love the increased mana cost passive

But if there were more slots with Lyncus bristle ornaments, it would be a very interesting item for pvp and PvE.

[modest sierra]

I guess I'm still thinking of it in the sense of having to avoid running out of mana while using mages dance instead of one of the AOE staffs

[jagged bane]

Dance of the Mages, for me, has always been more interesting because it spends more mana, because heretics with high AL, their mana is absurd. I already have 7k mana with 45 AL, I can't even clear it using items that consume more mana.

My dream is still a 40% Crit Amity with 50% mana consumption.

[safe gyro]

Any tips for a T8 mage (Nekkro)? I am not necessarily a fan of this flask idea, but I do like my Mage and want to come back to this class. I have some decent gear, but I know my weapons are kinda garbage. I have not been super active in the community outside of my kingdom, but if anyone is willing to help I can send my loadout.

[jagged bane]

#1024037520402558986 #👋│general

[hasty heath]

do you think there will be minor changes till the launch on monday or will it be the state as it is now on the beta?

[brisk salmon]

You know what? I stand corrected. Not punishing. I just really like the speed of mana consumption with it. Consuming the whole mana bar in 4-5 turns

I do disagree that it has tons of uses. It is only a nuke chest piece

It literally doesn’t do anything else. Things go big boom boom

[thin stone]

not tons of use s, tons of use.

It has a thing (giant +mag, no defenses), and when people need that thing, they use it.
It's also used outside of heretic commonly when they also need that thing.

to whit: gilgaxe doesn't have CD effects, realmspikes doesn't have avidity chance, beocharm doesn't have BB effects, and essences don't have apex effects.

||and maybe some day we'll get a fallen grand summoner that will drop a thing, and hopefully that thing will also not have a theoretical GS-only effect booster||

[brisk salmon]

Robe doesn’t have flasks effects. But yeah. That was an empty complaint on my end.

[tiny arch]

But is robe better than bulwark for ultima?

[thin stone]

Depends on your mag stat. Is +~1k magic more than 20%? If so yes, if not no.
Bulwark is (much) more defensive at any rate, which is more of the reason why it's used. Still good Ultima damage and not paper defenses.

Also: theoretically there exist other spells than Ultima. Or so I've been told, I haven't seen it personally.

[clear frost]

Yeah, there's also Viperseal III!

[jagged bane]

Considering how hard it would be to obtain the items again, and the fact that the class, even though it's better and more fun now, is still far from standing out compared to the others, I think it's unlikely anyone would come back. Only those who play for fun and genuinely like the class would.

[thin stone]

Only those who play for fun and genuinely like the class would
The identity reworks are for exactly this reason.

If some players are just optimizing and minmaxing their farming then, well, HoC exists for them nowadays.
Identity reworks are (hopefully) an opportunity for true class lovers to enjoy playing the class they love much more.

Regarding the poll, hopefully it can be compared against the previous run of the poll to see if there's a difference after recent changes.

[tawdry solar]

Only those who play for fun and genuinely like the class would.
I don't think people play for fun would comeback, for me flask is just not fun at all, it's overcomplicated with minimum relate to mage. I would rather have a passive that relate to elemental which mage is famous for, no need to be strong but some how enough make us use element spells or something

I probably won't HoC heretic to another class for now but i also won't use it more often than current

[mossy stratus]

I have only been playing for 1.5 years but I started tier 10 as Heretic because I really enjoy mages in RPGs & I like glass cannons. I was really disappointed in both celestial classes when I unlocked them because neither really had unique game play. In the end with the Diety update I found Ara met my mage needs (and was frankly, a better caster). Both celestial deity classes have unique game play opportunities & normal deity is good too. With heart of change discounted in the store I have already switched over to Heretic because I am very excited about this update.

[urban delta]

I started on Deity at t10 and have been stubbornly glued to it most of my Orna career but this update looks right up my alley so I have hopped over already. 😃

[marble prairie]

-suggest make celes arrow omni spell (:

[west wind]

Hi I am person who comes back for fun. Theme, impact, and Fun are a huge part of why alot of people play games. I think, regardless of the game, that communities often forget that the loudest portion of the player base is more often than not the minority of players

[cedar skiff]

People can have fun playing games?

[west wind]

Nah impossible, everything is a spreadsheet if you try hard enough

[tawdry solar]

Yes, i agree that people play games to have fun, i mean heretic now just isn't fun hence, people would not not comeback to heretic

[west wind]

But Fun is not something that you can objectively define.

You can certainly try but you lose something in translation