General 3.16 Beta Discussion

[lusty cove]

these 5 polls are now up
#1331674127261630508 message

[plain bison]

Btw Bloodflask old sprite had a Red color not sure if new has

Reference :B

Welll more like brown vs white of manaflask

[fleet ember]

For clarity, In regards to accessing Flasks outside of battle, is that from the class screen?

Personally I'd like to see the button move down a line and centered.

[plain bison]

To me it can replace basic attack hahah

[meager compass]

I also have this doubt

[lusty cove]

Any/all outside of battle stuff regarding looking at flasks - class screen being weird, not being able to see your flasks outside of that menu, anything

👍 everything with it is hunky dory, 👎 everything with it is not hunky nor dory

[meager compass]

I voted down because I didn't even know you can access them outsidw of battle hahaha

[hidden basalt]

I need to try the gallias to vote on many of these.

[civic thistle]

Long but definitely incomplete list of new weaknesses on beta

• Arisen Great Gazer Water
• Lyonesse Forces lightning
• Dark Pegasus earth
• Chimera fire/earth
• Arisen Typhon/Tiamat water/earth
• Kelpie lightning
• Ortanite Golem weak to Water immune to fire/lightning/earth
• Fenrir lightning
• Crimson Gazer lightning
• Nin-kilim earth
• Mighty Griffin water
• Anubis lightning
• Cockatrice fire
• Guivre water
• Ankou fire
• Dark Basilisk got a weakness unsure which
• Minotaur Earth
• Bandit Lord Fire
• Arachne Fire

most early game summons now have a weakness 🎉

[hidden basalt]

Really cool to see Omnimagus Ara getting the HAra kit.

[solar widget]

OMAra potentially the best t9 raiding class now?

[fleet ember]

So OMAnt gets...? Bloodflasks, and the Necromancer Flasks always seems to fail.

[meager compass]

I've gotten it to work but yes, it fails a lot

I mentioned it in the mage topic. Probably got buried already

I think it just counts as using Summon Dead and thus gets the "non-summoner" chance to fail with summon spells

I don't know if it is intended; it feels like a bug

[meager compass]

reported it just in case

[storm elbow]

Nekromancer thematically should be able to cast this spell/use the flask with high success rate tbh

[meager compass]

I have not tested Nekromancer

The above is only true of Omnimancer and Omnimancer Antla

as far as I know, that is

[fleet ember]

It seems to work every time on Nekro

[void river]

Can we get a poll for the ward changes that only includes al 100 and up? Including a bunch of players with low stakes in the feedback for changes dilutes it too much imo

[solar widget]

Has anybody tested Storming Tempest vs Ara Vesta 4?

[rich vigil]

Well, I did some testing, but it uses ara Vesta 4 in a wrong way kinda
Basically I have my typical hybrid amity + hybrid lute Mage Dance build on dara, its possible to slap wind tamer on it
I tried it with BoF and wind tamer - damage is enough to kill anything on anguish 19, but, if you hit 1 opponent instead of 3 and BoF doesn't trigger - you can die, classic non whole field aoe, wind tamer shield is a bit annoying in a way that you cant get HP regen from ashen ruby (coz celestial weapon)

Then, without changing anything, I swap windtamer to another lute (blackened eyes for peeoenix and 1 ashen ruby), without crit, raw ara Vesta damage is about the same as Storming Tempest, which is surprising, and when it actually crits - it just annihilates anything, but 400 mana per use is problematic, can be kinda countered with acorns since daras pool is massive, but still, 2-3 uses per floor for 22-25 floors - you can't fit that much acorns on a dungeon farm gear build, but works completely fine with terra's bracer, so Critless Ara Vesta 4 is kinda viable...but I still prefer whole field damage aoe, because hitting 1 opponent per press 5 turns in a row is...sad

[rich vigil]

crit less Ara Vesta 4 (I hate the single hits)

also, bruh, WHY, on the goddamn beta server

[solar widget]

Hmm, does seem like storming tempest might be slightly safer though? You could also use the reduced dot damage gear for not needing a ruby

And anyways, I have a hybrid + 5% hp regen amity so I'm good either way

[hidden basalt]

Here's a clip from same anguish level as HCorvus. No hybrid. Showing both.

[solar widget]

My issue in the end as beoH will definitely be dex though, I hope I can get enough dex without ranger of just get enough als to use cactus for ang 2.0

[rich vigil]

IF you have a good shield, which isn't a thing for most, and if you do, 60-70k ward not gonna help you

[solar widget]

For me, I want to decide on this for towers tbh, I'd much rather use kektus for anguish dgs

[rich vigil]

I use dara mage dance, so same thing

[solar widget]

On ang 50??

[rich vigil]

never unlocked ang 50 🤷‍♂️

19 is my max

[solar widget]

Ah, I somehow can do ang 43 with kektus if I'm lucky (need to set up with zerk first though)

[hidden basalt]

I looked at the flasks and wasn't really sure how they would help me.

[solar widget]

I do think problem for HCorvus would be lack of hybrid boost from lute, making crit build with av4 better

Especially pairing with crit poise now

[hidden basalt]

I would normally red and blue line HCorvus, but I put an ashen ruby in it since it was mentioned.

[hidden basalt]

Yeah, that's why I wanted to do it as Hera.

[rich vigil]

also rember incoming hybrid lute nerf

so crit av4 might be the only option ._.

soon™

[rich vigil]

I do not appreciate kektus horde, because it requires too much setup, unless you have lots of asc levels

[solar widget]

Not yet though

[rich vigil]

but I swear, if itll be a plain stat cut that says do another 50asc to get your dungeon time back in 5minute range, I'm not gonna play

[hidden basalt]

I was trying to compare Ultimastrikes crit effectiveness raiding in live and beta but it's so hard to get the exact same buffs lined up on DUrsa. Got this nice 44 million crit though in live. Best I got was 17 million in beta.

[weak canyon]

Careful of the m2 variation on US, i dont think it should be that worse compared to live

[rich vigil]

if you rely on same element weakness and crit stack - the damage will drop down a lot

my ultima setup received nearly 40% damage hit, meanwhile swash realm strikes received only 12% reduction

[hidden basalt]

Okay this is better. I got a 27 million on beta

[rich vigil]

used different elements?

[hidden basalt]

US has a wide range. I think the red and blue lines made up for misisng the t.att++

[solar widget]

There's also redline/blueline stat difference in effect. Overall maybe US is one of the less affected skills? 🤔

[rich vigil]

wasn't they the main nerf target? people hit 65 mil with them

[solar widget]

Doesn't ultima have a higher weakness multiplier than US? I thought that might be the reason

[hidden basalt]

It's probably easier to try ultima. I can do that.

[rich vigil]

65 with ultima strikes, not ultima

[rich vigil]

for me ultima went from 20mil damage cap to ~7-13 mil

[solar widget]

Isn't that just because us has a higher m2? I'm not sure but I thought it's weakness multiplier is less than Ultima

And that's probably paired with the already crazy live multipliers system

[rich vigil]

well, I never messsed much with US, so I can't really answer this

every time I tried US it was just a shadow of what ultima can do

probably a gear issue

[hidden basalt]

Ultima was much easier to compare with quickcast on HAra

Oh shoot missing the tmag+

[rich vigil]

that was my difference, not as much as in your case

[hidden basalt]

Here it is. It doublecasted this time but you can see it did 5.6 million

[hidden basalt]

We're getting about the same results

[rich vigil]

ye

but I can't test properly on live since im hitting the double 9.999.999 ceiling

[hidden basalt]

HAra naturally breaks the damage limit

You might need a heart of oceanus on DAra

[rich vigil]

ye, thats why I said I don't know the full number on live

I have HAra, but I'm too lazy to test again XD

(coz I'm cleaning the apartment right now)

[hidden basalt]

Yeah, I had enough testing for now. I should do some cleaning, too.

[verbal forge]

requires a full meter to use
needs to wait two more turns after that

[finite pulsar]

So, what is this thingy

Sorry if already asked

[white axle]

That means someone used a Carving Stone on the settlement

That's not beta specific

[finite pulsar]

Ahhhh, okay 👍

Thanks, never seen one before

[fading aurora]

The larger UI makes me feel like a boomer with reading glasses. Will there be an option for the normal size UI?

[rocky flame]

So in testing out new ways to maximize US and doing out the math again I'm coming to realize that US raiding is much more accessible to new T11s/people without crazy amity's,
Double 40% crit/30% Drag is actually not optimal anymore
Double 30%/20% (off different elements) are actually only ~30% behind what I've found to be the most optimal build so far, which is significantly more accessible

(not sure if this has already been determined, been busy and a little out of touch with beta info the past few days)

[white axle]

So we know that Ultima's weakness multiplier in live is 2.4, and Odie said Ultimastrikes' is 2.5, but bother were reduced in the beta.

Is there any chance Odie could please tell us the new weakness multipliers for each?

[green dagger]

Huh, I always thought Ultimastrikes was lower, learn something new everyday!

[civic thistle]

Unlike ultima ultimastrikes is affected by resistances/immunities of the target

[rocky flame]

If we can learn the new weakness multipliers I'd be interested to see if bulwark or fallen sky robes performs better
(I'm gonna assume bulwark but mostly curious by just how much)

[half moon]

Is the consensus still to try and get this beta out to live before the end of the month? Feels like it won't be lol

[vernal walrus]

Getting it into beta before end of month was the goal. we don't want to rush getting it live

[plain bison]

live beta or open beta (current)?

[vernal walrus]

we can't do live betas of balance things, so current is as far as betas will go

[half moon]

Gotcha, misunderstood the announcement from before. Makes sense lol

[solar widget]

Selene arms shadow buffed?

For context, arms are 10% on live

[willow patrol]

interesting find

[plain bison]

augments shadow changed?

[marsh rock]

Hey guys, is it me or the 'seed' between mirrored char and live are now different? I tried to HOC back to all other previous classes I had before being Deity and I am stuck at like AL17 on Gilga for example when I was actually much higher before?? Strange! Feels like it's different because last beta I could go back to what I had ascended on other classes... not this time.

[white axle]

They are different

Beta ALs have never been the same as main game AL costs

[marsh rock]

ok thank you, I'm not crazy then

Well, very very strange then because I remember like one or 2 years ago I HoC live from Gilga to Beowulf and then to Deity more recently and I could do the same in Beta

I don't know

Maybe I dreamt it and it was not the same AL

[eager cipher]

I'm quite late to talk about this, since the 2h update is already live, but I still think it's worth suggesting...

The two staves belong to the mages of Lyonesse: a T9 staff, and the other, a T10. After trying out the Arisen Trevelyan's Archistaff, I thought it would be great if the Gradlon's Archistaff, a more accessible option for new T10s, also received that same ability. I think it would be a good change.

[solar widget]

I think it should receive brilliant lights 1, since brilliant lights 2 is very strong (idk if there's much of a difference between the two though)

The t6 staff also has brilliant lights 2 so it could remain an event exclusive weapon skill at the least

[lusty cove]

Brilliant Lights is also currently a Trevelyan-flavored spell, not necessarily a Lyonesse one

[eager cipher]

I hadn't thought about giving it a weaker skill 🤔 but I took a look and saw that the only users of «Brilliant Lights» are Trevelyan T6 and T9 raids and currently this skill only hits 1 target, it seems like it needs more work than just adding «Brilliant Lights ii», but anyway, I really think it would be good for Gradlon Archistaff to have some shine/highlight, I've always considered it a good staff, it's not the kind of excellent item that I would go after, but if it came I would definitely level it up because it's more defensive compared to A.Qatvanga

That said, my thinking was more along the lines of this:

1. «Brilliant Lights ii» is a good spell, but it's completely locked behind an event
2. Would it be bad if it wasn't just a seasonal item?
3. The Arisen Trevelyan's Archistaff is T9. Would it be bad to have a T10 version?
4. When adorning the staff, we'll need to decide between crit adornments and adornments with a 2h bonus. If you choose the latter, you'll need to have some Phoenix feathers to reduce your stats... If you choose the former, you'll need to wait for Cerus or use adornments with 2% crit rate, which will lead you to need crit feathers on your armor
   • • 👉: I'm not sure, but I think «Brilliant Lights ii» has 20~25% crit rate? That's what it seemed to me when I tested it
     • 👉 Having your stats decreased while using a T9 staff is a bit more painful than when using a T10 staff (T10 has higher base stats)
5. You could take advantage of the link between Trevelyan and Gradlon and give Gradlon's Archistaff a good use, which has been lacking in shine, making it a desired option for some time
6. It would be a good staff for early T10, compared to A.Qatvanga it has less Mag, but it has more ward, but thanks to that it tends to be safer for those who are still starting T10
7. And compared to Arisen Trevelyan's Archistaff, because it is T10, it has some higher stats like Mag and Ward, with these two it would make completing hordes a bit easier

Even if the studio leaves «Brilliant Lights» and «Brilliant Lights ii» as Trevelyan-exclusive spells, I think Gradlon's Archistaff could also get something AoE 🫶

[storm elbow]

An updated Gradlon's Archistaff would be a good intro to 2H AoE for fresh T10's IMO

[white axle]

Gradlon's Archistaff does already have a completely unique offhand spell

And it's not bad either

This variant of Ward of Light uses magic rather than attack

[fallow sundial]

Not every 2h needs aoe as its 2h ability 😅 We got a lot of good 2h aoe for sure, but there's room in the game for 2h other stuff like utility skills (lay spikes comes to mind) or single target damage.

[split tiger]

Trialing weapons def need some Love though

[fallow sundial]

Trialing weapons get use already -- if they need anything it's probably not much.

[white axle]

Do they really? They're great

They need more love from the playerbase if anything. If you want to use a boosting weapon Trialing weapons sit in a nice middle ground between one boosting weapon + shield and 2x boosting weapons

[hidden basalt]

The trialing bow felt pretty good as a Realmshifter. The trialing staff feels very weak as DAra.

[split tiger]

Ive never seen ppl use it

Its always 2 questing or terror

Venin

[fallow sundial]

BiS for amity hunts, and then it does get some use (especially in lower ascension) pve as a more defensive farming setup than dual-wielding.

[split tiger]

Maybe in theory, but in reality its not something ppl use (outside of amity hunts youre right)

[white axle]

I run all my endless with a trialing bow

[split tiger]

Im not asking for a pseudo aoe or anything, but blightstrike 1 for a t10 weapon is a bit eeeh

[fallow sundial]

I leave it to NF to provide actual usage numbers, but I'm generally of the opinion that things that already see use shouldn't get buffs for no reason.

[eager cipher]

It's quite unique, but I've never used it for this skill 😔 using Transfer 3 (I don't know what the name is in English lol) ends up being my first option

[frigid crest]

Is elysian balance treated as additive in beta just like everything else that stacks elements?

[fallow sundial]

yes

[frigid crest]

Thanks!

[fading aurora]

Where do we sit outside of two handed patch?

[plain bison]

Heretic identity is slowly but surely getting done i believe, can't tell for the other changes

[fading aurora]

Nice

[void river]

Mages don't seem too impressed with definitely-not-apex

[plain bison]

as a mage i'm ok with it, it has its good potentials, but nothing ground-breaking like DAra

I would probably push for some balance changes if live feels like it, the dual-mancy and omni-mancy spells are in urge need of update, and HAra feels like could get a bit higher Stat for MAG (1.1 currently)

[meager compass]

Feels like it would be best for the studio to comminicate time tables

[plain bison]

i think i will delete my message actually xD, it feels like i'm talking for everyone

should be better

[meager compass]

Not disagreeing with the sentiment that Hera rework is looking good and near completion

[plain bison]

yeah, i feel like just some loose ends right?

[white axle]

Was the M2 of Rend/Epee increased to balance out the nerf to M1?

[fallow sundial]

(if not, it should be.)

[vernal walrus]

Let’s test the damage and see if it needs it

[white axle]

Well in the live game often Rend/Epee's damage is a little on the low side already

It's the penetration that carries it

[hidden basalt]

I used to do ang boss horde (and towers) as dorado with rend epee.

[white axle]

So a 20% damage hit is pretty rough

[white axle]

Why?

I'm also mainly concerned about it for PvP

[vernal walrus]

nm, i double checked, and the m2 floor was increased 33%

[white axle]

Ok thanks, that sounds fair then

[vernal walrus]

i'll update the note

[hidden basalt]

Good penetration. I didn't enjoy ward-based attacks. We have slice and envy now though so it doesn't matter as much.

[white axle]

So Rend/Epee is:

Live:
M1: 5
M2: 0.3 - 0.6

Beta:
M1: 4
M2: 0.4 - 0.6

?

[vernal walrus]

yes

[white axle]

Thanks!

[hidden basalt]

I thought it might get a separate adjustment for pvp and pve like Ultima.

[white axle]

So to put it another way for people to visualize, damage power is going from:

1500-3000
to
1600-2400

[split tiger]

I dont understand these numbers
I only understand pain

[white axle]

Old epee ignore defense
New epee still mostly ignore defense

New epee still does around the same minimum damage as old epee as long as you have high attack

[lime hornet]

Odie really trolled that discussion thread

masterful gambit

[solar canopy]

Not sure it needed the buff against non def targets... That's not what the spell is for. I'm going to need to try to get my character ported and see how easy it is to zero rend now at 4 m1

Even at 5 m1 in bof it was easy to zero as long as you didn't have it super juiced. Ie. https://www.youtube.com/live/niRLXmSWwcU?si=RkxAncPtFyLK-gfg&t=6982

But it all comes down to who are we balancing the game for. Even match ups 250vs250 or high al players 🤷 this is all up to Odie tho I would love to hear thoughts from him on why it needs to be changed.

[wispy cove]

Im happy now

Rend epee was brain dead in non al pvp aswell. It needed to be tuned down. Ca was popular choice bc ss and re were popular. And ca was nerfed so the other 2 should be too. Simple as that

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-perfectlybalanced-gif-18301221

[teal python]

My hopes as well since it's my main attack for endless.

[teal python]

For equal stat classes wouldn't verse 4 essentially have an M1 of 3.5?

[white axle]

Yes

[teal python]

I see, I see just making sure I understand where epee falls.

[white axle]

New epee will be:

• ~14% better than Verse 4
• 25% better than Ultima in PvP
• Equal to Celestial Arrow

[teal python]

Where does Celestial Arrow come from?

[white axle]

Heretic Corvus

[teal python]

Gotcha, so mage is getting an epee.

[white axle]

It's two turn

[teal python]

Ew

[white axle]

And has existed since towers were introduced

[teal python]

🤣

I see

[white axle]

Well so is Ultima so I had to add it for comparison

[teal python]

Yeah, but just the possibility of 80% res seems to have made Ultima vanish from PvP.

Maybe that's just defensively.

[white axle]

As long as you know your opponents in territory control aren't resistant to it it's still good

I used it during one of my brief stints as Deity

[teal python]

I see, I mainly think of wars regarding PvP as I don't focus much on territory.

[dusty osprey]

I haven't seen if there's anything about it yet, but the nerfs to crit and elemental damage and SS3 changing to dex seem to me to have been a bit extreme in relation to the BeoH's damage, since basically all the nerfs affect it directly.

[white axle]

All the nerfs effect everyone directly aside from basically just Grand Summoner

[raw zodiac]

Nah, it also affects GS quite a bit, being Ultima our fastest raiding method and the changes affecting Elysian Balance directly

Plus CS is also the fastest way we have to complete towers

[dusty osprey]

Yes, but the class that I think has been affected in every respect is Beo.

[shell otter]

Counterpoint: blood pact is completely untouched

So maybe summoners will actually be using summoner spells for once

[raw zodiac]

Could be, but even in the AW, which was the only place where charging the passive made some kind of sense, Ultima was still faster and safer

[raw zodiac]

I'm just saying GS isn't as unaffected as it was mentioned

[woven steeple]

Technically the most affected classes by crit and element stacking are RS and Heretics as their innate crit damage buff should have as much impact as it used to.
As for SS3, having a fixed accuracy was far too strong to begin with. And despite that BeoH really don't have it too hard as you've access to every gear in the game so you can easily find dex + accuracy from riftrogue. Not to mention phoenix bestial bond is another layer of accuracy and bonded dex.
Maybe you'll have to modify some of your loadout, but you're being a bit overdramatic here.

[dusty osprey]

I don't play and Beo so I don't really care but analyzing the potential of the class as it is now and the items to be nerfed, I feel that in pvp only it will suffer a little more now, maybe it's not as I'm thinking but in my view it was market the Critical of verse 4, Beo's accuracy in ss3 / damage if adapted to dex build since Beo is "blind", Raid item was nerfed as promised but I think it's very fair.

[woven steeple]

they still have hybrid monster for their damage so now they'll have to focus a bit more on accuracy, sounds more balanced to me.

[weak canyon]

we got ranger to help with that
although being "locked" to a certain follower / spec sucks for sure

[fading aurora]

Womp womp

[azure dagger]

Unless the build was pretty juiced, we were able to zero rend / epee in BoF tourneys. Thats equal AL. Feel like we just nerfed an important tool for area control here preventing lower ALs to even hit at all. Not even considering the fact that rend epee doesnt hit that high to begin with. Not sure why this nerf was needed

I would have liked to see the M2 be slightly reduced instead honestly if any change were forced here

The general direction this game keeps trending with these kinds of balances is kind of worrying. Hoping the overall balance patch aims to trend the other direction

[vernal walrus]

At this time, Rend / Epee has the highest pen of any one turn skill in the game. the question i would ask is: is BoF the appropriate place to house the highest one turn pen in the game?

From the quick math, damage should still be pretty consistent with what you already have in BoF, given the m2 increase. I'm really only looking at defense disparity with the change

If that proves to be untrue in low-AL situations, then m2 can be adjusted more

[azure dagger]

Working out the math here i now basically need one less single + defense buff to tank it in BoF

And again thats equal ALs. What happens when someone is 100 ALs above me with full defense gear? Am i supposed to be able to hit them at all? Hypothetical

Thats a built in DC, on top of it being really easy to stack multiple other buffs in a single turn on defense

[white axle]

What I saw in the epee thread was that some people seemed to believe someone 100 ALs below should never be able to take territory from them, while others thought they should. And Epee is one of the ways that a player with so many fewer ALs is able to damage someone highly ascended

[azure dagger]

Exactly so if the direction of the game is 100 ALs above you should never give you a chance, thats worrying to me

[white axle]

However, with an M1 of 4 I still think Rend/Epee will be extremely effective when used by someone who actually builds into their attack stat.

[azure dagger]

Its just a tool too. Having m1 of 5 doesnt guarantee you are killing someone 100ALs above you if they know what they are doing

[vernal walrus]

We do have Material Equalization as the tool for 100 AL gaps. Personally, I don't think one skill should be as effective as the Rampart in the Conq scenario

[fallow sundial]

Should one skill be the lever by which all of mismatched AL pvp is balanced? Clearly no, that's insufficient. That's why ramparts and ghosting exist, among other holistic solutions.

oh, jinx.

[vernal walrus]

🙂

[azure dagger]

Should material equal now be the one lever now then with the same logic?

There should exist a few levers

Rend was barely even one of them in my experience

[vernal walrus]

happy to make it 2 turn to balance against other skills

[white axle]

With 7500 attack (extremely doable with no ALs on BoF), you still need an effective 25,000 defense to zero out Rend/Epee with M1=4

[azure dagger]

Thats so easy

Cmon now

You can get that in a single turn

This is my point

Im advocating against some of my own builds here

Does that not speak for itself?

[white axle]

I don't believe it's 'so easy' given the game's PvP AI

I'm only talking territory here

PvAI

[azure dagger]

I can guarantee you a golems + DC in turn 1

Also with AL disparity thats another DC on top of that

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad change here? Very worried

[white axle]

I don't think a 20% M1 reduction is that bad, no.

But also I have literally no way to do extensive testing on it

[vernal walrus]

have you played with it?

[white axle]

In beta there's almost no way to re-create the scenarios where it makes it a difference

[azure dagger]

Ive played without it, and it already doesnt punch as much as it needs to penetrate defenses at equal al

Probably more testing than anyone not a flex but have spent lots of time running tests for tanking

[vernal walrus]

equal AL is defintiely half the story though - we'll want to make sure it is balanced against other offerings holistically

[white axle]

It's easy to say the HS3 with an M1 of 2.6 isn't enough penetration, and that Rend/Epee with M1 of 5 is potentially too much, but testing any middle ground is a challenge.

[azure dagger]

Feel free to release it to public beta and we can test it further but based on my testing with m1 of 5 this is not a good change imo

Its just math though theres not much to test right?

[white axle]

You can't public beta an M1 change, it would have to be full release

[azure dagger]

Ok cool full release. Can always tune it back later

Just my 2 cents ofc. Felt obligated to chime in here

[woven steeple]

it'd be nice to be able to parameter the cactus to test things like that. Like giving him a set amount of hp/def/res/ward. Plus chosing your loadout for the fight instead of using the overworld loadout by default.

[white axle]

To be specific:

Outside of highly ascended territory fights Rend/Epee should do generally the same damage (with a higher minimum damage and lower max damage), it's really difficult to test scenarios where defense grows to the point where M1=4 vs M1=5 makes a sizable damage difference based on enemy defense.

I can plug numbers into a spreadsheet but that obviously doesn't tell the full story of a PvP battle

[azure dagger]

We can run through the specifics right now if you want to do the math right here

[woven steeple]

And speak of epee, I'd rather keep it strong. In the end it deals damage but you've to build 96% crit which is a lot, and you probably have extremely low def for swash.

[azure dagger]

In addition to that, there are so many other ways to counter rend epee. It doesnt even deal high damage. --- It only penetrates defenses---

Like it already has its downsides to build around

[woven steeple]

at AL 41 with epee I ccan't 100% kill Goudine, and I can't defend against him at all.

[azure dagger]

Thats assuming Goudine is trying to counter your epee too he prob isnt even full tank

[woven steeple]

considering he plays Deity Ara Chained shield, I don't think he's trying to hard counter me

[azure dagger]

Thanks for the anecdote definitely helps the point I'm trying to prove here

Anyways. Hopefully it has been heard! Ill see myself out

[woven steeple]

Rend/epee is not auto-win. This is live server.

[azure dagger]

Here I ran the calcs for a not even extreme case:

With 15k def BeoA at 65 ALs on Warden with 15% area control stat amity

Thats 21k defense on turn 1.

DC and Golems can go off almost 100% of time on turn 1. Thats now like 53k def.

If rend epee has an m1 of 5, you still need almost 11k stat screen attack just to hit on turn 2

[vernal walrus]

how did we deal with that before Rend / Epee? what are the comparables? Is Rend / Epee still more effective t1 than the comparables?

[woven steeple]

I assume you've the % usage of rend/epee in pvp fights, and its win rate. Could you share if possible ?

[vernal walrus]

(i have no horse in this race, just need to understand the full picture)

[fervent oyster]

how do ppl even get 15k def on beoA 65AL?

[azure dagger]

We didnt

Well. Verse 4 came before it

Thats how i dealt with it

Before BoF we had tourneys with AL involved. I ran a 13 AL beoH. It was literally the only way to deal with 75 AL and 140 AL deity that inevitably won the tourney

BeoH is a huge menace for getting thru defenses without rend epee in the picture. But that is a specific class and build

Rend epee is also spec locked. Gotta remember that

[white axle]

If we rewind time prior to Rend/Epee, it was also prior to quite this much bloated ascensions

[azure dagger]

It also was easy to tank people back then in amorri gear

[unkempt rune]

The M2 adjustment seems fair to me. A turn 1 M1=5 absolutely disregards so much investment made by the high AL player. I know this discussion is a matter of ALs and how they interact with PvP, but a skill that makes a AL100 easily killable by an AL10 is definitely unbalanced and negates a ton of the effort the high AL player invested

[white axle]

^ This is honestly the difficulty with this argument

Should the AL 100+ be able to stonewall the low/no AL player or not?

[woven steeple]

and also, people are speaking of epee as a free win, which is far from being the truth

[vernal walrus]

There should be tools. Ascension should not complete negately skill and strategy

My argument is more about appropriateness - is BoF the place to have the best pen in the game, and is the pen difference too far of a margin from the other offerings

Or does there need to be more offerings?

[white axle]

Yeah this is why I didn't interact with that that thread, I felt like people on both sides may not have been arguing genuinely.

[fallow sundial]

It's certainly what the other thread was all about: only ALs.

Should a tool exist to break the defense stat? Is the defense stat still interesting? Honestly surprised to hear that S2's opinion is that pvp is hopelessly defense-favored, that anyone can slap together 10s of thousands of defense on a moments notice.

Did defense start becoming oppressive before Rend/Epee, and if so when?

Only comparing like-to-like ALs here

[vernal walrus]

Have we reached the point where the Def/Res stats are mattering again? 🙂

[split tiger]

Well well if it isnt AL a problem once again lol

[white axle]

is BoF the place to have the best pen in the game
I think so, it's a PvP oriented spec that is quite challenging to obtain.

Or does there need to be more offerings?
Yes, I think there could/should be a middle ground of skills between HS3 and Epee

[azure dagger]

Mobile wonder and I used to have defense wars all the time. We both had some huge tank sets that could zero each other until beoH stepped around

Again its just math here guys no testing is needed

Its not opinion either

The facts are all here

[woven steeple]

IMO the problem with def/res and the damage formula is either they're useless or they're too oppressive. It's hard to see a middle ground.

[azure dagger]

Once the def is out of reach in the m1 part of the calc, there is absolutely nothing you can do to penetrate except redline/blueline

Nailed it

[white axle]

In an unequal playing field (ascension differences) defense and res have mattered significantly for a while now

[azure dagger]

Sokam and i have abused this for 2 tourneys now

And are asking our own build not to be helped here

And again thats equal ALs

AL disparity amplifies it

[vernal walrus]

solution: release Anguish 2.0 so that there is some ascension counterbalance
disable AL in PvP

Got it, done 😛

[white axle]

I'm still in favor of Epee being nerfed to M1=4 to be clear, but I do think some players have massively exaggerated it's effectiveness.

[green dagger]

I am still in the "Al's should not exist in pvp" camp

[vernal walrus]

we could meet at 4.5, while increasing some pen on some less utlized skills so that it is less dominant

[azure dagger]

But since we will never disable ALs across all pvp, please lets not nerf some tools that help bridge the gap

[willow patrol]

The real monday hype

[split tiger]

I like this 👀

[azure dagger]

Thats a decent compromise ill take it. Just know that even with 5.0 it isnt overpowered whatsoever

[split tiger]

The part about making more skills relevant

[white axle]

As a point of reference, in a fairly optimized AL 69 build with 9k attack and 2.25x crit multipliers, my Rend/Epee does not always oneshot defensive builds and they can kill me back.

[azure dagger]

Again guys its just math here. The only opinion that you can have is on the math itself whether you think a change is needed

[fallow sundial]

Your argument is that players can get such insane defense stats (on a build? on a set of builds?) that only one epee build cracks it, but quoting you in this thread, epee "already has its downsides" and rend was "barely even [a lever]".

So... help me out here 😅
Is it absolutely vital that it exist at M1=5 (or higher)?
Is it acceptable for that to be the only solution?
Is your argument really that defense is too high overall (that only one build can do anything about it)?

These aren't math questions, but are very relevant.

[azure dagger]

Do you want me to list all of the current methods to breaking a defense?

[woven steeple]

I've posted about some screenshots of me being Higsbyed and another dude winning with same al. Took me about 5 pvp matches to lose both of them.

[azure dagger]

They are all counterable, by the way

Nerfs are only needed where there is 0 counterplay. Ss3 for example

Imo

Im saying that epee represents a massive tool available to all melee classes with some effort grinding it. And when you build it, you basically have no defenses.

A strong tool with its own downsides is balanced

And as orion pointed out, it doesnt magically delete everyone in its path

[fallow sundial]

Unlike SS and BP pre-nerf where they had M1=100+, it "only" has M1=5.

And your argument here (quoted) is that there is counterplay at M1=5.

[azure dagger]

Selene hand v4 beoH

Has been my bread and butter for years

But that is class restricted

And is super low dex

Downsides!

[vernal walrus]

This may not be the best way to box the situations in which nerfs are needed. It is one metric, for sure, but balance is wider than this

[azure dagger]

Fair i usually use extreme cases to prove points 😅

There is plenty of counterplay to rend epee at m1 is 5

And again its all math

Multiplication addition type of stuff no integrals or derivatives

[fallow sundial]

It just brings me to:

Is it absolutely vital that it exist at M1=5 (or higher)?
Is it acceptable for that to be the only solution?
Is your argument really that defense is too high overall (that only one build can do anything about it)?

Your stated concern is that defense is going to win too much if epee goes from M1=5 to M1=4. So that's a soft yes on the first question.
You said there's a lot of ways to crack defense (without specifics), so that's a rebuke of the second question; that the premise that epee is the only solution is wrong.

Leaving just the third -- is defense in a good place in pvp? Or is it too high overall? (Or more generally -- what's your take on the state of pvp at current?)

[woven steeple]

I can't even one shot myself with epee, 50k HP + some ward at 50% is enough to survive at least 1 hit.

[azure dagger]

Good question give me a sec to directly answer

[green dagger]

I've always thought that defense stacking of buffs on the front end while attack stacking buffs on the back end was problematic

[woven steeple]

Mirror match on beta and live, same build. There's definitely a significant difference, even on low def enemies.

[azure dagger]

Is it absolutely vital that it exist at M1=5 (or higher)?

The counterplay to rend epee has nothing to even do with stacking defenses. The fact that you even can stack defenses and zero this already should say volumes though. M1 being 5 isnt a magic number, but reducing it just eliminates its purpose imo. Hence why i suggested m2 reduction instead. Lower damage output but the ability to penetrate defenses better than most other options with a very specific spec and build for which there exists counterplay.

Is it acceptable for that to be the only solution?

Everyone and their moms currently use SS1 selene hands eyes closed to get through everything. There are maybe two or 3 other ways, some of which are class specific. With incoming selene hand nerfs and ss3 nerfs i can see the next question becoming more relevant--->

Is your argument really that defense is too high overall (that only one build can do anything about it)?

With the upcoming nerfs to selene hands, there is legit concern that defense will be completely out of hand for some classes altogether

@fallow sundial sorry for dancing around the questions hopefully this answers?

My ultimate point here is if rend epee wasnt really a problem to begin with, and represented one of few tools to get through a thick wall, why make it worse?

Also sincerely appreciate everyone hearing me out here

Oh I forgot my take on state of pvp currently. Loaded question. My take on Pvp with ALs or non ALs?

[fallow sundial]

No, it's good. It gets to the actual thing instead of getting lost in ALs and personal territory grievances like some other threads.

I think the core argument is about how much defense (the stat) should matter.

Clearly there is a curve where M1 goes from "not enough" to "too much" -- examples being SS/BP on the high end. Everyone was unhappy with defense not mattering, so those were changed; we have good precedent there. Epee isn't at the tier where it completely ignores defense ("only" M1=5), but it does minimize it significantly and all the exact same arguments from before apply.

Can there exist a fun, desirable pvp skill that significantly or completely ignores defense if it has enough downsides? Note that you don't need to swash to use the skill; the downside of epee is supposedly the low M2 in the hopes of having it not be a one-shot machine. How much would change if epee was prevented from ever killing someone in one attack? Would nothing change or would it become unusable?

[azure dagger]

Unusable. We live in a one shot meta type of world

You dont need to swash correct but without swashing you miss out on (60%?) attack which is massive in what makes rend epee tick

Counterplay includes:
High dex
High hp/ward

Dont build def simple as that

That being said, m1=4 i can probably stack def and zero a good amount of people using it. Which completely ruins the point of rend epee in the first place. 20% is a lot

We can look at the numbers specifically if youd like and you can decide what is fair m1 based on those numbers

[azure dagger]

Example

[woven steeple]

Mirror matchup with CS in beta. I deal 40% more damage than epee. And I can't even win against myself unlike with epee.

[fallow sundial]

Right -- how much should the defense stat matter? 😅 Because high dex, hp/ward, parapet, summon/follower protect%, and second chance all work at the same time against all other attacks too. So it's just the defense (stat) and how much weight it should have.

Or the argument is that defense itself is simply too high (from gearing changes), or gets too high too fast (t.buffs) in pvp. 🤷‍♂️

[azure dagger]

Ok but the moment we start tuning m1 down is the moment we can start building Def

Now there exists a full slate of counterplay

And ruins the point for all the downsides that exist for building glass swash rend epee

And again, we already can build def and zero rend epee at equal AL

With just one turn of buffing

[woven steeple]

Now that I've tested it more, it looks like the people complaining are mostly people with dumb build no hp no ward turn who thought that just the fact that they out AL you should make them stronger.

[azure dagger]

Are we saying the same thing i cant tell? @fallow sundial are you saying keep rend epee at m1 4 or go back to 5?

I still dont know how this got changed in the first place

[lime hornet]

its funny because the whole "knowledge" of the thread was that m1 was 6, but then this just appeared the other day

which means it was never 6?

[azure dagger]

Makes sense based on some of the stuff i had tested in the past

Always seemed to get zeroed sooner than intended

[fallow sundial]

My strongest opinion is that I want data from NF around its usage. Just from personal experience I think M1=4 is better (because I remember highM1 pvp days and they were boring and sucked; because M1=4 is still an incredibly high value; because if one skill is holding up the AL-pvp house of cards then it should come down).

On pvp topics generally, ever since I switched from beo to GS I basically took myself out of the field. I'm certainly never going to be worrying about 25k defense stat on turn1.

[woven steeple]

If M1 is really down to 4 to prevent overly powerful penetration, the M2 will have to be buffed accordingly. Currently, epee on beta deals significantly less damage against no armor (and it's be even worse on higher armor).

[fallow sundial]

My suggestion in this thread and the other one was to lower M1 and raise M2 accordingly. Treat it in the same class as every other attack that on-paper should care about enemy defense or lack thereof, as opposed to a separate, unique class of skills that ignore defense and have downsides to prevent abuse.

Albeit still at the top end of that class.

[azure dagger]

Its no skin on my back. Then my argument would be that defenses and ALs are indeed too strong as there are now less counterplay options

[vernal walrus]

m2 was increased by 33% fwiw

[azure dagger]

Im making my m1 = 5 argument based on the state of ALs remaining the same, which is based on previous discussions I've led

And always seem to go nowhere

[woven steeple]

I've posted some images here #1331673427056132126 message of the comparaison. Sure there's some variation in damage but it's overall much lower currently, even with 33% better M2.

(characters are identical btw)

[fallow sundial]

If the goal is for people to overcome 100+ AL differences reliably, then we need to be talking about M1=10 or something 😅 Because that's a gap wider than the Grand Canyon.

I don't think AL-pvp is or should be solved by one skill (Epee) at all. Really only considering equal AL pvp.

[woven steeple]

At some point high AL players have so much HP that you could have infinite M1 and you'd still lose

[azure dagger]

It isnt currently solved by rend epee at m1 =5 though

And it's not the only thing available. It's a tool not a solution

Hence why nerf it

Makes no sense to me. I have no actual proof for the argument to take m1 to 4

[wispy cove]

By going full defence /low res

[azure dagger]

Orion with a different approach is hitting the nail on the head here

I think rend epee was actually in a good spot before. Strong, niche, not OP

Also when I tested rend epee on a t9 it got counterplayed so hard by dex and hp

As an extreme example

[wispy cove]

I can sometimes 0 ss3 but not rend eepee.

[tepid fjord]

This was m1 = 4 beta. A 50 al beo was the highest I could get

[woven steeple]

3 turns to kill someone 40 AL higher than you, including 50% more damage from collateral (which is ridiculously strong if you ask me). Epee is definitely not strong on beta.

[azure dagger]

The AL part doesnt matter if the guy is wearing rags though. I appreciate the test but thats not showing much

[white axle]

In this specific example you likely would've done more damage with HS3

[tepid fjord]

Well if we're taking in to consideration orions beta pics that's just for comparison. Do with it what you want

[azure dagger]

Orion is showing that the damage is overall lower

@woven steeple which btw

So before it was
M1 = 5
M2 = .3-.6
Total multiplier 1.5-3

Now it is
M1 = 4
M2 = .4-.6
Total multiplier 1.6-2.4

Against 0 defense targets

If my math is correct

So yes the math works out to prove your point that the damage is lower now

[white axle]

Higher minimum damage, lower average damage

[wispy cove]

I bet orion cant stack tons of def and att on a mirror match in the same time.

[vernal walrus]

reverse psych. i like it

[azure dagger]

I already showed some math as to how rend epee can be zeroed.

I also tried to explain that stacking defense isnt the true counterplay to rend epee

🤷‍♂️

Without outright telling high AL players how to be str8 OP

[dusty osprey]

Rand/eepe with magic damage :3 dream? Maybe.

[wispy cove]

No but while rend epee exists. Theres no point to build def. Hp and ward is effective enough vs all

[azure dagger]

Thats not true at all either

I get ur logic though

[green dagger]

Here we go, swirling around the bowl once more. 😆

[woven steeple]

but building to counter epee might not be optimal against other build. While epee may be better vs armor stacking but put you in a weaker position against other builds. For me it's all balanced.

[azure dagger]

I can turn 2 hit 500k on a t9

So better build defense

[wispy cove]

Correct but building around rend epee works 90% of the time

Only second chance or any other dmg prevention will be effective

Atleast thats how i see it bc im a beoA player

[azure dagger]

So after all of this discussion. What is consensus ?

M1 of 5?

M1 of 4?

React please!

[woven steeple]

as a deity I've both an epee build and a CS build, guess which one is the strongest (even on live).

[wispy cove]

Prolly cs bc high ward

But the thing is cs can be 0

[woven steeple]

on beta, my CS deal 40% more damage than my epee in mirror matchup, while also having far better defensive stats.

[wispy cove]

The current meta is low def bc bof and swash ss3 exists

[azure dagger]

Guys please

Math

[wispy cove]

Unless you are hybrid user^

[azure dagger]

It has absolutely all of the answers

We dont need to debate with thoughts and feelings here

Orna damage calc is PEMDAS

Dang did that actually derail the debate ^ nice

[fallow sundial]

I think you'd be surprised.

Wanting a 1-shot pvp meta versus not is purely thoughts-and-feelings based.
As is the "bad feelings" of being zeroed out.
As is the "bad feelings" of defense investment not mattering.
And so on.

It's very much feely, not that mathy. There is a math component though (specifically on that M1 curve where we can talk about at what point it inverts and optimal defense stops caring entirely about the defense stat).

[lucid bronze]

Personally I'd say keep Rend / Epee at 5. However if there is a desire to continue to balance Ascensions in PvP with a rework or a cap or even removal at some point even if that is in the far flung future, and Rend / Epee having an m1 of 5 is actually holding that possibility back then I don't mind it being turned down. 🤷‍♂️ Everyone around me uses 400-900k ward depending and so I don't really use Rend / Epee anyway because it can't punch through enough ward to matter before I just get walloped

[azure dagger]

Rend epee does not one shot idk where that is coming from

[fallow sundial]

[11:02 AM]Fuximus (GS114): ... How much would change if epee was prevented from ever killing someone in one attack? Would nothing change or would it become unusable?
[11:03 AM]S2iVi: Unusable. We live in a one shot meta type of world

C'mon man you're killing me

[azure dagger]

I dont use rend epee for a reason

Because it doesnt one shot

And i live in a one shot world

Ur killing me😂

Now its nerfed

So i definitely wont be using it

!!

[echo vector]

I missed a lot of the conversation, but I think it would make more sense if the damage of rend was nerfed and not the penetration. So it can still serve it's role as an armor pierce but not deal quite as much. So you certainly could chip down a pure tank but would struggle if it was your main move vs someone going damage.

But I'm not an expert on orna damage equation so not sure how that shakes out.

[azure dagger]

This is exactly what i suggested earlier. Thank you!

[woven steeple]

the damage is already low, I can't even OS myself in mirror match. All you need is HP and ward turns.

[azure dagger]

Which is why i dont use rend

But it has its use case as a tool to take down defenses

Now that tool is weakened

🤷‍♂️

[woven steeple]

it's like rend/epee is strong because people refuse to build against it. If it was so much of a problem that 90% of the PvP was rend/epee the meta would have long ago shifted toward a rend/epee counter.

[echo vector]

Yeah I think that's good. The use case should be vs high armour, why would it be good again high effective hp? My two cents is that I've seen rend hit higher than I think it should.

[white axle]

Rend/Epee is quite bad against Spiked Shield ward builds

That is from my own personal experience when I do daily quests for arena farming

[lucid bronze]

Yeeeeeeeup. Can 110% confirm from local settlement fights. Which I'm referencing since those were what started the discussion.

Arena is just rotten to farm though I know we are getting an AL removal button for Arena and Coliseum so that will help there a lot

[azure dagger]

Reasons to keep rend epee m1 5:

• represents a good tool to take down defenses
• does not do a great job at one shotting as is
• has counterplay
• locked behind a spec

Reasons to take m1 to 4:

• no other single turn ability has an m1 higher than 4

Did i miss anything?

I really feel like im missing something here

Id like for this to be a legit list this isnt sarcasm or anything

[green dagger]

Give it non elemental damage too, so Melee can have fun with non resistable damage.

[unkempt rune]

And make it AoE

[green dagger]

Woah now, that's a step too far. Just make it so it never misses like perfect shot

[azure dagger]

No seriously did i miss anything on that list?

[unkempt rune]

• invalidates building into defense unless you go all in on defense

[white axle]

This is my current view of Rend/Epee:

• Rend/Epee is very good, but also turned into a bit of a boogeyman for high AL players to explain why they were losing territory to low AL players.
• In most non-high defense scenarios, rend/epee will do less damage than HS3
• However because M1=5, M2=0.3-0.6 can produce a power number higher than 2.6, Rend/Epee also can hit higher than HS3

Therefore, I think it's entirely fair for Epee to be downtuned in some way so that it's maximum power can't exceed other melee 1-turn options.

[woven steeple]

defense > ward > epee > defense

[azure dagger]

Exactly why my original suggestion was to just tune the m2 down a bit

[white axle]

The counterargument is that it invalidates building into defense against BoF melee players. Which are only a subset of the playerbase.

[azure dagger]

And you can literally change your build live

[white axle]

It's a separate problem that BoF is the best spec to be on all the time, so that subset is disproportionately large.

[unkempt rune]

What melee class isn’t on BoF though?

[echo vector]

Con - might slow down my ang 50 goblin forts

[white axle]

If BoF wasn't the best spec for almost all content on melee classes we wouldn't have such a huge issue with Epee being overused

[green dagger]

Least it's no longer Oracle

[azure dagger]

Im always on oracle

🤷‍♂️

[unkempt rune]

Even when not on BoF, was everyone really stacking defense to the point where Epee would have issues?

[white axle]

I am perfectly OK with epee going to M1=4, M2=0.4-0.6

[unkempt rune]

Because that was not my experience at all

[white axle]

No, not many were. Should they be? Maybe

Meta isn't always strictly correct

[woven steeple]

why should stacking defenses be a counter to every damage build ?

[echo vector]

My experience is that tank deity used to be a lot more popular defense build. And I rarely see it anymore

[unkempt rune]

I’m not against the change proposed by S2iVi though, keeping the M1 and changing the M2 instead

[azure dagger]

Im surprised to hear that given all of the discussion. I truly think rend being 20% less penetrating will make it so much less usable

I already don't use it

Now i really wont

[white axle]

I do use it, it's great when you stack multipliers... which I'm realizing I wasn't accounting for, and mulitpliers are being nerfed 🤔

[unkempt rune]

I don’t think I’ll use it with either change, so I’m not using that to factor into my opinion 😅

[azure dagger]

Multipliers are m2 and also that implies not a one shot

[white axle]

Indeed

[azure dagger]

I have plenty of other options to one shot and not stack multipliers

So i dont use it

[white axle]

I stack a lot of numbers for one shots 🙂

[azure dagger]

Hence why it needs no nerfs

Other than maybe tuning down m2

[white axle]

But anyway, yes

[azure dagger]

0.3-0.5

Would be so appropriate

[white axle]

So maybe the better proposal is making it:
M1: 5
M2: 0.3-0.5 ?

[azure dagger]

Yes

Ship it

[white axle]

Is 0.5 enough?

[azure dagger]

Its a high end number

On average thats 2.0

[white axle]

I mean low enough. That still maths out to power of 2.5

Hmm. yeah, it's probably fine when compared to options like HS3

[azure dagger]

Low end is 1.5

Thats shit

[white axle]

Yeah that's already the case

[azure dagger]

And ur spec locked

Dont forget

[white axle]

What about other people, does reducing M2 max from 0.6 to 0.5 solve concerns?

I could see an argument for it still being too high

[azure dagger]

For you anguish junkies out there i can see keeping the m1 being useful in the near future btw

Pvp aside

[woven steeple]

that would make epee deal less damage than CS, with a glass cannon build.

[white axle]

CS and Epee shouldn't be compared at all since they use totally different numbers for their damage calcs

[unkempt rune]

1.6-2.4 vs 1.5-2.5, basically?

[white axle]

Live:
1.5 - 3

Beta:
1.6 - 2.6

Proposal
1.5 - 2.5

Notably "beta" here has M1=4 and "proposal" has M1=5

[unkempt rune]

2.5 with high pen might still be too high damage wise, but 0.4 would be too low. Unsure, I’d have to see how it translates damage wise

But I’d be open to testing that out in the beta

[azure dagger]

But thats just a high roll scenario

I get the point for sure

Remember ur spec locked

Avg 2.0 is pretty crap tbh

[white axle]

The average roll is going from 2.25 to 2 in my proposal

[azure dagger]

Thats like omnistrike 3 crap

[echo vector]

I'm haven't tested it at all, but is there any build that runs rend without crit stacking? Just keep in mind these builds are already prob losing like 20% damage

[white axle]

No

And that is something that needs to be considered, however crit stacking hurts other skills like HS3 just as much

[unkempt rune]

Fair. I’d definitely be open to testing this proposal in the beta

[unkempt rune]

Buff HS3 while we’re at it

[white axle]

Odie did say this before

"increasing some pen some some less utilized skills"

[azure dagger]

The point of the skill is to delete defenses. Keep m1 high but at expense of a lower overall multiplier

Why don't we get rid of the range altogether

Just make m2 0.4

Its such a cool tool

Man id even be happy with m1 of 6 and m2 of 0.3

[echo vector]

Rend low true damage buff other skills pen

[tepid fjord]

If we're taking everything into consideration then we need to take into consideration stat decay and every other variable in the settlement world, no? Lol. This is more from a live pvp stance

[white axle]

By the time stat decay happens the battle should be decided

[azure dagger]

I know that is directed at me so ill respond with i do not use rend epee in area control because its not good. Hard stop

[white axle]

And it's already been a while

[woven steeple]

low true damage is useless, it's not like the enemies will wait while you use epee 5 times to down his 200k ward

[white axle]

Should I present this to Odie?

Rend / epee

• Decrease the high end of the M2 from 0.6 to 0.5
• Keep M1 at 5

Epee's effectiveness is already being somewhat nerfed by the changes to crit stacking, and reducing the high end of M2 ensures that HS3 always deals more damage against lower defenses, and some other melee skills often deal more damage.

And please consider buffing penetration on some less used skills, like you had previously proposed.

[azure dagger]

@tepid fjord i used to be top 100 area control too. My stance comes from everywhere

[tepid fjord]

Not sure how that's aimed at you? It's a general statement that it's not nearly the same in an ai pvp stance.

[white axle]

I had to check; stat decay doesn't take effect until your attack on turn 4

[tepid fjord]

Overall settlement stat decay? Or battle ?

[white axle]

In-battle, sorry

[azure dagger]

Stat decay is the problem then not rend epee ?

[white axle]

For settlements you should typically be using upkeep often for max rewards, right?

So decay should be semi-minimal?

[azure dagger]

Yes

[woven steeple]

what are you all considering "too high damage" with rend/epee no buff first round that you've witnessed ?

[azure dagger]

Old rend epee

[woven steeple]

how am I supposed to get 27k attack as a deity ? also 28% crit

[white axle]

If people wanted the numbers, thanks to the Ethiraric for doing the legwork and finding the proper speed of decay

[tepid fjord]

I like Odies suggestion. If it stays m1 of 5 make it a 2 turn to keep it in line

[white axle]

I don't think that was a real suggestion lol

[tepid fjord]

I know lol

[azure dagger]

@fallow sundial thats hilarious didnt even notice

[azure dagger]

Exactly

This skill does not need a nerf

On contrary im trucking out way higher with v4

[white axle]

V4 is not a melee skill

[azure dagger]

Again why i dont use rend epee

Why does that matter

[white axle]

V4 has an average power of 3.5

[azure dagger]

Yet we are talking about rend nerfs

[white axle]

The highest 1-turn high pen melee skill is HS3 with 2.6

(non-ss)

[azure dagger]

V4 isnt spec locked, hs3 isnt spec locked

[lime hornet]

time for rend buffs

[azure dagger]

The spec that locks rend epee forces you to basically fight naked

[lime hornet]

not sure thats true. my dummy thick hp and 0 defense is still good

tho im not likely to run bof on defense

unless i go to bed with it on

[azure dagger]

All im saying is

@lime hornet i know you can survive a 150k rend epee

Thats from a super juiced build too at al 65 beoH

[lime hornet]

wait how do you know

[azure dagger]

Because u play gursa warden

[lime hornet]

what have you been doing to my ai

[fallow sundial]

This is the core disagreement.
As I said earlier:

Treat it in the same class as every other attack that on-paper should care about enemy defense or lack thereof, as opposed to a separate, unique class of skills that ignore defense and have downsides to prevent abuse.

Let's probe this a bit.
If M1=5, M2=0.5 is acceptable, then:

• Is M1=10, M2=0.25 acceptable?
• Is M1=100, M2=0.025 acceptable?
• What are the limiting principles here, if any?

Imagine it was mechanically changed to actually ignore defense. Such that for Epee, enemy defense doesn't even enter the equation, so the damage formula is just (atk * M) instead of (atk*M1 - def)*M2. In that world, what is the correct value for M to still be interesting and balanced in pvp?

[lime hornet]

take me off your excel spreadsheet please

[azure dagger]

You mean leaderboard?

[lime hornet]

ive got 3 hocs lined up you have no idea what im about to do

[azure dagger]

My leaderboard is ready

Spend away

[lime hornet]

if i could delete my boss kills i would so i could drop off global

[azure dagger]

Nice perk of intentionally staying above rank 100 in things

🧠

[azure dagger]

If you always ignore defenses but hit sands of aaru damage i dont see a problem with infinite m1

There exists a middle ground for sure

But detuning m1 is not the answer

It would be a shame to remove such a cool tool honestly

[azure dagger]

Man in this case im barely killing t3s

But infinite m1!

Nerf to the ground

[fallow sundial]

I only have a problem with infinite M1 and one-shots, but you told me that it never one-shots anything.
I suggested adding a "cannot kill in one-turn" clause to it but you said it'd be unusable 😅

We have M1=6 on a two turn but nobody cares about that. In modern orna pvp, if someone gets a 3-turn skill off then they should probably just autowin tbh. Rework Annwn Fury or Strikes of Ursa to instantly lower enemy HP to 0; it probably wouldn't affect much.

[white axle]

Magic's 2-turn spells are only relevant in PvP because mages have access to 1-turn quickcast

[azure dagger]

Exactly so you agree that m1 = 5 isnt a problem?

I just showed an image of 28k attk at 65 ALs hitting 150k

All you gursa wardens need 300k for a 1 shot not including all the RNG cheese u need to get thru

[unkempt rune]

Fine, nerf V4 as well

[fallow sundial]

As long as it has Sands of Aaru damage (read: M2=0.175-0.375), I guess.

I wonder if NF has an answer to that M question I asked before, where enemy defense is removed from the equation. Or even more simply, imagine a skill that does fixed, flat damage and doesn't care about player attack or enemy defense. I wonder what value that skill would need in order to be seen as balanced in pvp.

[white axle]

It's balanced by BeoH's inability to hit things

On BeoH

[azure dagger]

Show em something else to complain about and the original argument disappears amirite 😂

[white axle]

On Deity it's strictly the wrong choice to use Epee over V4

[unkempt rune]

And it’s about to be unbalanced by ranger existing, but that’s another discussion

[white axle]

Ranger neuters stats compared to other options, but yeah

At 30% I have no issue with ranger

[azure dagger]

Damage gets a sizable nerf at least picking ranger

50% damage for 30% accuracy

[unkempt rune]

Okay, okay. Just buff HS3 and we’re all good then

Pretty please?

[white axle]

Buff things that aren't HS3

Lets get some options rolling

[lime hornet]

TREE

[unkempt rune]

Buff HS4 into existence

[lime hornet]

TRUNK

[azure dagger]

Hs3 m1 of 2.7, m2 of 1.0

Rend m1 5.0, m2 of 0.3-0.5

?

[white axle]

HS3 gives a ward turn and reduces defense, we could get skills that don't give the ward turn and do something else

[white axle]

HS3 is 2.6

[azure dagger]

Yes slight tune up

[fallow sundial]

Spellbreaker my beloved

[woven steeple]

higher version of swordplay

[white axle]

Buff Tree Trunk to be M1=1

Unleash it's true potential

[fallow sundial]

Plant the seed

[azure dagger]

Ok so where are we at

Have i convinced anyone yet

That rend is indeed not in need of nerfs

[white axle]

I am still here

[fallow sundial]

Rend Epee -> M1 = 5, M2 = 0.25 (like sands of aaru)
Because it ignores defense

[azure dagger]

Or at least in the m1 department

[lime hornet]

so rend stays the same and Hs3 gets a buff? melee eats well?

[unkempt rune]

Ship it

[azure dagger]

Thats a sizable nerf

[lime hornet]

isnt this like taking off the other guy's armor and then tickling them instead of a nice stab?

[white axle]

Decrease Rend's upper M2 slightly, add variety to melee high penetration skills

[azure dagger]

Ship

[fallow sundial]

I have been convinced by this thread that Rend/Epee is actually a tickle attack and doesn't one-shot anyone ever 👍

[azure dagger]

Honestly that helps higher al players more too

[fallow sundial]

Might as well make it honest, y'know

[lime hornet]

true got it

in live pvp i like an hs3 opener into rend/epee anyways

[azure dagger]

If ur being serious then hell yeah mission accomplished

RIP if not 😂

[fallow sundial]

I am kinda liking this idea of an attack (that you have to grind for in BoF!) that just does 10k damage.
Attack? Doesn't care.
Enemy def? Doesn't care.

Scales with multipliers of course, but base 10k damage. Still has to deal with dex, second chance, parapet, protect%, just like every other attack in the game.

[lime hornet]

Now you just need to get Odie out of a local snow drift or the nerf will ship as is

[azure dagger]

Itd be cool to add that as an ability elsewhere

Rend epee with a slight reduction in m2 for now i feel like is good for variety

And usability

I like that idea though for another ability

[azure dagger]

Do you still own i80? Im taking it back tomorrow

Prepare now

[lime hornet]

ive showed Sokam that video. I dumped 30k+ territory when swapping over to new conq system

enjoy free spots or w/e is there now

[azure dagger]

Ah thats no fun. Im sure someone has it

[lime hornet]

that means you are going to jackson?

[azure dagger]

Yessir

[lime hornet]

enjoy!

[tepid fjord]

Maybe it should be polled on a wider scale with different options. 'Cause as it sits most ppl still wanted the m1 nerf

[white axle]

Who is most people?

[tepid fjord]

I mean from votes

[unkempt rune]

Changing it in beta isn’t really a guarantee that it hits live like that. I’ve tested the current iteration enough in beta, I’d like to test the proposal before committing to either

[white axle]

I hesitate on anything with votes regarding the damage formula, because people vote without actually understanding how the formula works

[tepid fjord]

It took days for anyone to come in here and talk about rend/ epee i don't think a majoirty of people are looking in here lol

[azure dagger]

I was told to check this area out to see what was being done to rend epee so yeah. Thats why im here

Fighting the good fight

[white axle]

And I don't look in that thread because it's been exceedingly unproductive and circular from people on both sides of the argument.

And that's the same for some others too

The conclusion in this discussion has been reducing Epee's damage, not keeping it the same

[azure dagger]

Just not in the form of m1^

Reduced 1 shot potential, not tank penetrating potential

[white axle]

Skills should be able to penetrate defense, but those same skills shouldn't deal enough damage to kill someone with high ward. And vice-versa, and things in the middle.

[woven steeple]

this is already the case. live epee is negative matchup against ward. if its damage is reduced so you can't one shot unprepared enemies, then I don't see a reason to spec into it. if you need 2 turns to kill with a glass cannon build and 2 turns to kill with a ward stacking build, there's no reason using the glass cannon build.

[white axle]

From the bit that I read in that thread, some players struggle to create a build that can defend against rend/epee despite having exceedingly high AL. I'm sure some of that is a build issue, but also it's damage is kind of high for what it is.

Rend/Epee's current damage range means that it has a fairly solid chance of out-damaging melee's second best option of HS3, which it probably shouldn't be doing.

Given the M1 differences, I'd guess against the average opponent Epee will do more damage than HS3 at least 1/3rd of the time. That ratio raises against high defense opponents

[wispy cove]

This would actually make the skill more balanced lol

[azure dagger]

Because nobody will use it? Cmon

With one DC the m1 on turn 2 effectively becomes half, or 2.5

Math guys

And thats just DC. Not adding player using golems there too

Buff stacking very quickly kills any multi turn abilities from an m1 standpoint

[woven steeple]

btw we still still have no actual data on how strong epee is in different areas of pvp on live.

[white axle]

It's probably skewed because only really dedicated players tend to grind out epee

And dedicated players would only use it when it's good

[azure dagger]

I provided some

Reposted

This is live

[white axle]

Oh I was thinking Orion meant Odie data

[azure dagger]

Oh gotcha

Well this is a good benchmark i think?

It ofc can get some more juice

[woven steeple]

that's exactly what I ment

[azure dagger]

What data do we need though ?

What do u mean how strong

[woven steeple]

usage / winrate

[azure dagger]

Thats not a good metric

[wispy cove]

There is?

[azure dagger]

What i mean by that is orna pvp is a lot of rock paper scissors. If everyone is throwing paper at scissors, of course you're gonna lose

That full juiced image i posted could not even beat myself in my regular war setup

[woven steeple]

swordplay3 hit like wet noodle.

[wispy cove]

This. Currently epee penetrates and deals too much dmg ( unless using ectoplasm)

[wispy cove]

I might miss remember but cele gilgas might have swordplay

[azure dagger]

Is this too much damage?

What would be an appropriate damage amount based on this build/image

Im in rags no hp no ward almost full juice

65 al

BeoH too mind you. THE glass cannon class

[woven steeple]

sure, I wonder what's the problem here. Epee having too much penetration or the 27000 attack. mmmmm tough choice.

[white axle]

To reverse engineer this; epee rolled for around 0.5 on the M2, which was on the higher end

[wispy cove]

My opinion comes from auriga lines. They have less hp to begin with. Focusing on hp wont help if epee penetrates and deals triple of your hp.

[white axle]

Your Auriga dies much more easily to HS3 than epee

[wispy cove]

Not if i have enough def.

[azure dagger]

So you basically want nothing to kill you? Got it

[wispy cove]

No.

I want less oneshot meta.

[azure dagger]

@wispy cove hoping for an answer to this

[white axle]

This might be a hot take, but defense is too powerful for anything other than a oneshot meta

[solar widget]

Then only nerfing rend/epee will not help

[lime hornet]

game has infinite scaling. i want infinitely long pvp battles for balance

blood for the skull god

[void river]

Lmao no

[woven steeple]

litterally what I said earlier, defense in orna and its damage formula is either useless or op.

[azure dagger]

Na i think its actually pretty good for how simple it is honestly

[white axle]

Against a defensive opponent the only two options are:

1. Kill in the first two turns, or have a very high attack stat and epee
2. Kill ten+ turns later if you somehow haven't died

[solar widget]

With ranger, won't spiked shield just become the meta again? 🤔

[azure dagger]

This is exactly what Sokam and I abused. That was with epee at its current level too

So please feel free to nerf it 😂

[white axle]

Some people say they want #2, however I think generally most people who actually engage in combat with that kind of setup would agree it's not exactly fun

[lime hornet]

i do think nerfing the 1 shot meta into the ground for longer pvp battles would be okay if 'rewards' were better

right now other players are basically world mobs

1-2 greater souls here or there

[azure dagger]

Ur al 150 though

[unkempt rune]

The lower stats should help lower the damage from non-gilga classes

[lime hornet]

this isnt much better at low AL or no AL with good gear

[azure dagger]

True

[lime hornet]

one shot meta existed before AL

[azure dagger]

But still

[lime hornet]

BACK IN MY DAY

[woven steeple]

defense converted to damage reduction with diminishing returns is far more simple to balance. More complex to understand but simpler so balance. And personnally I'd rather have a balanced game than a game where average Joe can calculate his damage.

[solar widget]

People will enjoy 2 if pvp rewards scale to counter the length tbh

[white axle]

Back in my day the oneshot meta used Realm Strikes because nobody had high enough defense to beat a swashbuckler with Realm Strikes

[solar widget]

But as long as gps pvp exists, not an option

[lime hornet]

peppridge farm remembers when swash on defense was scary

[unkempt rune]

Gandring was meta back then. We’ve come full circle

[azure dagger]

Thats cuz u never rolled thru Denver 🔥

[void river]

One shot meta will always be infinitely better than stall meta

[white axle]

Correct, when I rolled through Denver I still played PoGo

[woven steeple]

here's a real hot take : PvP in Orna is not balanced at all and will never be.

[azure dagger]

@wispy cove did u come up with a number yet? Hoping to work backwards to an m2 value for you

Noting that auriga classes are glassy in nature and low hp

[wispy cove]

This so much!

[azure dagger]

By the way, this is what v4 does in comparison

Guarantee whatever nerfs we do to rend epee you arent gonna get what you want here

[solar widget]

Not 100% sure how that'll affect damage too much. My hybrid ss3 does 120-140k turn and I'm expecting less than 10k dmg decrease from spec stats only since I use bof (without utilising the passive at all). And I'm also under al 50

[willow patrol]

gimme a few weeks pal

[azure dagger]

Dont wait too long. I have some pretty busted stuff planned for post ss3 nerf balance

[willow patrol]

march 14th i think is vacay date but subject to change

sorry to derail lal

[azure dagger]

Ok here are 3 images

Which ability needs nerfing the most?

Pretty interesting when you actually show some real numbers

[echo vector]

Can you post 3 more pictures with the targets in reverse order? But yeah ss is eating a sizeable nerf. I think the specter of Selenes hands hangs over all these discussions too.

[white axle]

For S2 SS3 isn't being nerfed almost at all, being only 65 AL

However I don't think the targets are exactly fair, given the AL differences between them and us not knowing their loadouts

[azure dagger]

What?

600k ss3?

You cant be serious😂

[white axle]

?

[raw zodiac]

It's mostly about comparing the three in equal conditions

[azure dagger]

BeoH attk is so high ss1 gets thru everything turn 1 with the upside

[raw zodiac]

Same person with balanced def and res if possible

[azure dagger]

Sure. Please hold

[white axle]

Against Fuximus I doubt it would've been 600k. It probably would still be insanely high, but not as high as your comparison makes it look

That is also SS3, not SS1

[azure dagger]

Ill gladly get you guys specifics glad you're interested

[raw zodiac]

Thanks for that

[green dagger]

That 600k SS3 with that paltry amount of ward hurts my soul as a Gilga

[white axle]

The game is allowed to have multiple problems (and does)

[gloomy elm]

👀

[white axle]

I don't think we should direct entirely away from epee because SS exists

[echo vector]

It's rough to measure for this beta phase but anything using Selenes hands is almost certainly going to get nerfed with the augment patch.

[gloomy elm]

Why doesn’t heretic always have one of THOSE problems?😩

[solar widget]

I'm actually curious how those numbers are even possible. I may be half his als but I top out at 140k dmg with ss3. (no sgs though) I'll assume very high quality Selene hands, spiked greatshield and maybe some amity working together for that

[echo vector]

Beo + lute + Selene hands + hybrid amity is my guess

[gloomy elm]

Not surprising. I can do similar damage. Maybe just a tick under. And it was during a 3 week stint as Beo. First time ever. With no optimized gear.

Pfft. I can do similar damage as heretic too.

[white axle]

Hybrid amity makes SS scale with attack, magic, and ward with ascension. Not quite cubic scaling but higher than quadratic on a hybrid class

[solar widget]

So I just need 30 als more and my ss3 damage will quadruple? Doesn't make sense

[green dagger]

I am not sure I could do anywhere near that amount of Damage as a Gilgamesh without some buffing involved and my target deciding to be squishy

[gloomy elm]

Don’t believe ya

[echo vector]

The hybrid amity are disgusting youd be surprised.

[white axle]

You also need whatever else he's using

[azure dagger]

Sokam has around 18k defense here

Which one needs the nerf?

Ill give you a hint. Not rend epee

[gloomy elm]

😂

[azure dagger]

Sorry for the snark

Im just tired of this discussion

[echo vector]

Tbf spiked shield is eating a nerf

[azure dagger]

Not for me im not whale al

[gloomy elm]

That’s an illusion. His epee had 3k attack

[white axle]

It's not this patch

Not for BeoH

[gloomy elm]

No it’s not lol

[azure dagger]

If i get beoH converts after those nasty hits its bonus win for me 😂

[white axle]

It's going to miss exactly as much as those other 3 skills, but it will do about the same damage

[echo vector]

It's being nerfed and the builds that use it are getting nerfed, might not be enough in your opinion but it still is.

[white axle]

It's being nerfed for people with a lot of ALs

But in S2's example it is not

[echo vector]

Doesn't the nerf start at al 50?

[solar widget]

Maybe, still the damage difference is huge so I'll assume it's a broken amity like hybrid+full hp+ward skill dmg

[white axle]

It reduces the ward S2 gains from AL 50 to 65 by 25%

That is... not a lot of ward

[solar widget]

And that sgs 😢

[azure dagger]

Are we done here with the m1 nerfs for rend epee? I rest my case

[unkempt rune]

BeoH

[white axle]

It's the difference between S2 being 65 AL or 62 AL, roughly

To put it into perspective

[azure dagger]

Ur realmD relax ill never hit you anyways

[solar widget]

I got distracted, I'm too tired to understand numbers now. Will reread the thread when i wake up

[unkempt rune]

You’re not likely to be fighting any of my settlements anyway 😅

[azure dagger]

Where are we at with this guys are we still debating or we done

Happy to provide more evidence if needed

[gloomy elm]

Gilga nerf is 25%. Of the gained ward after AL 50 right?

[echo vector]

I dunno what beo dex is like but you'll prob have to squeeze more in your build to be as consistent. Not saying that isnt the case for rend or verse but you can't just run full ward/attack in the same way

[raw zodiac]

That's interesting, thanks a lot for the ss

[gloomy elm]

So if you gain 4 ward per AL…you would gain 3 now?

Is that correct?

[white axle]

For AL 50-100, yes

[echo vector]

From 50 to 75 then post 75 it's half

[gloomy elm]

😂😂massive nerf

[white axle]

Oh, 75?

Sorry, had my numbers wrong

[azure dagger]

The only part i care about is the flat miss chance removal. Which is HUGE nerf

[gloomy elm]

Doubt it

[azure dagger]

Brings it back to at least a discussion

Ill prove it to u in alpine chat

[gloomy elm]

I can hit max dex dorado

[white axle]

No it is 100

I think? Unless the patch notes are wrong

[unkempt rune]

Patch notes say 10 yea

100

[echo vector]

I might be wrong

Did it change at some point? Haven't been on beta in a couple weeks

[white axle]

I was thinking:
50-100: 25%
100-150: 50%
150+: 75%

But now the patch notes only mention 50 and 100 as breakpoints

[unkempt rune]

Wasn’t it:
50-100: 50%, and 75% after 100?

[white axle]

No it did start at 25% from AL 50

At least in the beginning

[solar widget]

It's 25% decrease after 50 and 50% decrease after 100 no?

Or was that changed?

[echo vector]

Yeah that was it.

[azure dagger]

@white axle what are your thoughts having seen the screenshots i posted vs 18k def target

[white axle]

BeoH can deal extremely high damage and all of those are one shots?

I don't really have a good answer

[azure dagger]

Note rend epee was the worst

[solar widget]

Base beoH dex is 326

[azure dagger]

Of all of them

[azure dagger]

I just mean pertaining to rend epee m1

[lime hornet]

[azure dagger]

Does that influence anyones opinion

For that matter

I can't imagine thinking it needs any nerfs after that but idk thats just me

[lime hornet]

with AL all things are possible

im a fan of this DM

[azure dagger]

Im going to go start a buff rend epee thread brb

[echo vector]

Packing the good ol' June 2024 hybrid and inability?

[lime hornet]

surprisingly circumstance and attrition

which means that can be higher i guess

[echo vector]

I know when I pulled a hybrid amity my SS damage went up astronomically

[azure dagger]

Oh yeah definitely higher

[lime hornet]

is that the ward turns + skills use both attack + magic amity

[echo vector]

It's skills uses both attack and magic bonus hybrid damage

[lime hornet]

oh i dont think i have the double hybird one

( i know im mish mashing terms here)

[echo vector]

The ornate had additional ward skill damage too but I couldn't pull it

[lime hornet]

oh no

[fading aurora]

In general if SS needs to see an additional nerf, i would push to have it in pvp. I am not sure if that is possible in the game but with a T1 damage being that high I would prefer to have it nerfed again

[lime hornet]

i should really use this one

id like to see where SS lands after round 1 nerfs, and selene hands get changed

[azure dagger]

Glad this discussion is no longer about rend epee

Odie please change it back

[lime hornet]

man 2m ward in territory is a dead goal. 2m turn 1 dmg is the new hot thing

help i need a better amity

[white axle]

Thanks, I hate it

[unkempt rune]

Patch notes: SS skills have been removed from the game

[white axle]

Because apparently I should've been using SS this entire time and not using the hybrid amity on my realmshifter is why it wasn't doing enough

[echo vector]

How you get so much ward on ursa? Crown guards?

[lime hornet]

yeah this is running all 3

[vernal walrus]

investment is a little different Rend vs SS though, no? part of Rend / Epee's issue is that it is there, should a 1 turn skill

[lime hornet]

we have gone off the rails

[white axle]

Yes, SS does need some investment

[vernal walrus]

ah, good to know. i'll see myself out

[unkempt rune]

I’m not sure anyone is taking the epee vs SS comparison seriously, they’re obviously different circumstances

[white axle]

Not a lot of investment, as S2iVi is a 65 AL BeoH

But investment

[azure dagger]

See v4

[vernal walrus]

Rend / Epee -> m1 of 3, m2 of 6

[azure dagger]

Ignore ss3 please

[unkempt rune]

We did get a nice proposal for epee before fully derailing though

[echo vector]

I think hybrid is something that prob needs to be addressed

[fallow sundial]

Only if it also costs 10% of your current ward, to balance it.

[azure dagger]

See skill comparison for reference against an 18k def target

If you missed

[vernal walrus]

sure. no mana cost though

[white axle]

I did forward a link to that proposal in the ORN chat for Odie

[unkempt rune]

That’s why you’re the prettiest ORN member

[fallow sundial]

https://tenor.com/view/pakistan-cricket-fan-pakistan-fan-cricket-angry-fan-angry-fan-angry-man-gif-19825067

[echo vector]

Gilga has a surprisingly good magic stat

[lime hornet]

pettiest. ftfy

[wispy cove]

I saw you in bof today

[white axle]

I know, Realmshifter should be the absolute worst class to do this on

And yet it massively increased my damage 😐

[azure dagger]

Welcome to the meta

Glad to finally have you join us knight 😂

[green dagger]

After some testing, I can hit over 600k with no buffs on Herc, provided I can get near full ward and go full Selenes and hybrid. Definitely not Turn 1 damage still though

[echo vector]

Oh lol I misunderstood

[fading aurora]

Yeah that was fun 💀

[lime hornet]

[green dagger]

That's utterly ridiculous, you must have some massive attack in that build to go with your fat stacks of ward.

[azure dagger]

Much better😂

[lime hornet]

I figured the puzzle out

[azure dagger]

man was talkin 2mil earlier and Im sittin here like why not more

[split tiger]

Gilga full diabolus build viable

[fallow sundial]

Did you win

[unkempt rune]

Nah, the other dude had rend epee

[lime hornet]

Yes dad

[azure dagger]

Glad we can joke about Rend epee now. Makes me feel a bit better. Had me worried

[frigid crest]

after review of the thread, nerf it

[azure dagger]

Why

Whats the reasoning

[teal python]

Has the change for crit damage multipliers going from multiplicative to additive gone live yet?

[white axle]

Yes

From the patch notes I don't believe it was supposed to, but it has

[wispy cove]

Also tf nerf is live i think

My dmg has dropped quite alot

[white axle]

tf?

[plain bison]

towerfall i guess

[white axle]

Oh, elemental damage nerf

Not sure. Testing that is kind of annoying so I don't want to do it. If someone else does the community would be grateful 😆

[wispy cove]

Actually im not sure, bc i have been fighting vs rift raids so they are resistant vs tf

Vs cactus i can do around 10m without zerks

[unkempt rune]

Well, can we get the SS changes live as well then? 😂

[wispy cove]

Elemental nerf is live

[teal python]

What damage were you going before?

[teal python]

What were you using previously? Did you try Selene Hands + 15% at full HP amity instead.

[lime hornet]

this is a very contrived set up that eventually got to 3.1m turn 1 - in territory

[teal python]

Dang, as a Realm running Selene Hands and all skills are hybrid amity?

I just figured there'd be a better option for realm not because with 5×Selen Hands a realm's mag is gonna be very close to 75% of their attack. So using all skills hybrid you're only gaining like 5% stats.

0.6 × (100+75) = 105.

I thought it might've just been the raw att being added that increased @white axle's SS damage because Selene Hands are very good at doing that.

[white axle]

No, unfortunately I am using a 15% Hybrid + All skills hybrid amity and that's the biggest damage boost amity I have

It's dirty and I hate it. But it seems to be the highest damage SS at my disposal

[teal python]

Excuse me, I just threw up a little in my mouth. Alright, good to know. Carry on.

[teal python]

Just gonna go back to my Swansong dungeons.

[lime hornet]

1. run all conq guild buffs and warden spec. 2) selene hands + BB1 amity with hybrid and faction element on weapon 3) follower that has 15% dmg at full hp as its BB1 4) use an alt at t1 with no defenses

[teal python]

Lmao, ridiculous

[lime hornet]

5 be gilga

[teal python]

Do conq guild buffs increase ward and att?

[lime hornet]

all 3 stack and they definitely increase all stats - including those

[teal python]

So ALs, buff 1, buff 2, buff 3...
Quad Quadratic Scaling? smh

Quadratic⁴

[wispy cove]

Around 15m with those buffs

My max with zerks was around 23m

[teal python]

Are elemental multipliers of all the different elements all grouped together and additive with each other or only additive with multipliers of the same element?

[solar widget]

Should be additive with the same element but multiplicative with others

[azure dagger]

Yes please

Make realm great again

Also any word on the m1 rend epee changes

[teal python]

Easier to share format to help the cause.

[tepid fjord]

Comparing a quadratic scaling skill that we all know needs a nerf is not really a fair or accurate comparison. Also, rend is being used with selene hands in the pic vs typical prom hand usage. Notice how selene hands SS1 is on par with rend epee damage and it's losing it's 5% static miss chance and does not have m1 of 5