Archpath Feedback Discussion

[river ferry]

yes

[oak cliff]

okay cool! i was worried i accidentally spent 8 bucks on 20 skelly keys lol

worth it then in my opinion

[hasty cypress]

Yo

Slap the Latchkey in the monument guild; only 500k proofs.

#problemsolved

[mystic wasp]

deal :v

[sturdy hinge]

As per usual, my biggest complaint is having to come here to figure out how the game works. The in-game explanation is.... not sufficient.

[hasty cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitten-handshake-deal-agree-gif-7134721403924803840

[desert lantern]

Yeah there's active work on fixing this

[willow obsidian]

I bought it without knowing what it even did.. which really just speaks to my lack of impulse control.

[thorn sail]

thats concerning

[still plume]

A lot of people did that for some reason

[ashen umbra]

Lesser/scummy game companies bank on that happening (not saying NF is like that)

[eternal stump]

I'd like to know why different prices depending on the country that you're in? 🤔

[ashen umbra]

Exchange rate

[hasty cypress]

Exchange rates and value of your countries dollar

[eternal stump]

Nope

[desert lantern]

Some games alter their prices so that they're more affordable for the standard income for certain countries

[fringe gull]

I think prices in the UK are the same nominal amount as USD prices if Im not mistaken

[glossy shale]

What's your price Danno?

It's $7.99 USD

And Dro, what was it for Canada?

[hasty cypress]

9.19

[eternal stump]

Let's say "a friend" in Colombia bought a sprite pack and converted to USD paid half of what I'm expected to pay in the UK adjusted to USD

[kind wave]

7.99 on my canadian screen
actualy no 10.11$ if I click to buy

[glossy shale]

You'd be using a VPN to bypass giving the studio money but there's no reason that wouldn't work

People buy Steam games, etc. with that method all the time

[eternal stump]

The price is $7.99 and £7.99
So 1 dollar equals 1 pound
I don't think so

[hasty cypress]

If I buy it at the salon (VPN) it's 7.99$ iirc

[kind wave]

@lime oasis sorry for the ping, but this might need to be fixed soon in terms of showing a price and it changing on confirmation (missing price localisation?)
7.99 becomes 10.11 when on the payement hub

[hasty cypress]

I think it converts to Canadian afterwards anyway ?

[eternal stump]

No VPN

[kind wave]

it does, but everywhere else, the conversion is applied and display before you need to click

[fringe gull]

£7.99.

To be fair though, there isn't as much of a gap between $ and £ as there used to be. I think a lot of online vendors price things similarly between the US and UK.

[glossy shale]

Sorry I thought you were implying you were the friend just faking the system

[eternal stump]

Lol no

[kind wave]

click on it, the price most likely changes on click

[fringe gull]

Nope, still £7.99

[kind wave]

Seems like this item's pricing is missing localisation like the rest of the shop items

[eternal stump]

Are you sure that it's pounds and not dollars, I'm in the uk and all prices are shown as dollars until you click to buy

[fringe gull]

Oh, interesting. Tbh, I usually only buy shrines so have never paid attention closely enough. Youre probably right.

[kind wave]

canadian displays 34.19

[fringe gull]

Although actually, I just followed a shrine through. It was £.99 in the rune shop and still seemed to be £.99 in the play store.

[eternal stump]

My 1st display is always in USD

[magic tulip]

Bwubble has pretty much said everything I think but let me try and sum up my feelings about this:

• to preface, let me just say that I appreciate NF participating in the thread and trying to explain their vision. NF has always been one of the best game studios when it comes to taking player feedback and that is very valued. I’m sorry that some people chose to be rude (on both sides of the argument), but I’m choosing to believe that stems from people loving the game and therefore having more emotional reactions to this
• archpaths being pretty much a battlepass is worrisome for me. Battlepasses rely on FOMO and this implementation is no exception.
• there are 2 items that I find especially problematic being included: DMs and the crest of felling. DMs are basically a ton of mats you can outright buy, and the crest of felling is the most P2W item in the game. Have a ton of pumpkinless scrolls? Suddenly they’re worth a lot more because you can guarantee the gear always drops. Changing one of them to the free path is a step in the right direction, but another one being included in the final rewards is still worrying (this has since been changed)
• the release was handled poorly and further intensified FOMO. I know a lot of people who impulse bought the item because they were either afraid of losing day 1 rewards, because they thought they’d be able to fully complete the archpath immediately, or because they didn’t have access to it on the first day and were immediately locked out
• this one is more personal but, as a completionist, I hate having a quest put in front of me and not be able to complete it without paying for it. This was one of the big reasons why I left PoGo and came to Orna

[kind wave]

mind you, regional pricing are not autocalculated and BG often marked as the same as USD

[magic tulip]

This makes sense. If not for the 2 items I mentioned above, I don’t think the content given is that problematic

[eternal stump]

Sorry I've pulled off topic

[fringe gull]

No worries 🙂

[fringe gull]

Well said

[cobalt panther]

Just a thing regarding the third point - the crest of felling has been pulled from the final reward and is currently only available on the free path

[ashen umbra]

Also a +1 on the well said (and I admit I’m a bit in the emotional side of things, but that’s also just me unfortunately… >3< Plus, as you say, I’ve enjoyed this game so much for so long that stuff like this hits a lot harder)

That last point is something that has me so, so mixed. I want to believe NF is as genuine as they say, and I want to believe they’re not slowly turning into something else than I thought they were. But, man… battle passes? In Orna?
I’ve been playing Orna for over 5 years because it avoided the typical mobile game crap like this, and now it’s in this game. That doesn’t feel good to know. I thought Orna was above stuff like that. But as it’s been said… game has to make money somehow. It’s just a shame that means that some less than good things have to come along to do it

[magic tulip]

Great! I wasn’t aware since the final reward is only visible to people that purchased the latchstone now (which is another good change imo)

[cobalt panther]

It's a temporary change - if it's a good one or not is up to debate.

[steady bear]

Next its what all want during SO MANY TIME, more raid drop, Oh wait it's here, P2W and only 1? 2? Its even confuse, next month crest's X4 orns
I still buy it but feels bad man

[desert lantern]

Ah yeah, when the UI generally is more concise I think it'll show

[cobalt panther]

On the one hand it helps deal with the fomo, on the other hand people don't know what they're buying until they do it.
But not worth thinking about it too much, since it's a temporary fix until the UI improvements hit.

[stoic beacon]

Sorry for joining the convo ten minutes too late, but darn, why do I have the biggest price?

yes, I've exposed my email, whatever

[thorn sail]

Wasnt there a sprite in the final day of the archpath or im trippin?

[magic tulip]

8.99€ here (but I have iOS tax on top of that)

[stoic beacon]

mine's without iOS tax

[cobalt panther]

There still is, but it's not on the free path

[thorn sail]

Ah

[eternal stump]

I feel as though you need a PHD

[thorn sail]

Why did they hide it? People might skip the pass if they cant see it

[fringe gull]

If it makes you feel any better 👇

[cobalt panther]

It's a temporary change, to not give people the erroneous idea that they'll get the final reward for free, until the better UI drops

[mystic wasp]

that probably needs more Heretic Rework time :sad_beeps:

[real egret]

Id tend to agree with Bwubbles thoughts. NF had always relied (or allowed) community engagement for large directional shifts, or changes in general. If the motivation behind this was finding new ways to help support the studio, be transparent about that and leverage to community to come up with ideas we all agree with. Or at least can stomach.

We love the game. I don't think anyone would struggle to support it further, as long as those methods are transparent and reasonable.

[eternal stump]

Well said
And lower prices maybe a way to help that

[fringe gull]

Yea some of the sprite packs are super cool, but the price just isnt viable in the UK usually

[eternal stump]

£30 is 3 hours work at UK minimum wage, if you do 30 hrs a week that's 10% of your weekly wage for sprites that are purely aesthetic

[naive surge]

I cant keep up with the discussion in real time, I read when I have time at work. For those of you replying to the dissenting opinions about the paid path. Please keep in mind that some of us support the studio of our own free will(we don't have to get something in return). I pulled my personal bank records and its $242.32 USD since April. I am happy to support NF they do great work and a great game but, I don't want to feel required to support through P2W OR FOMO mechanics.

[steady bear]

Think in the minor players, cuban players, argentina, etc, i can buy, many no, we buy skins etc to friends who can't, but have new content walled if you dont pay its just bad, put for free, if want give extra in pay or paytofast its ok, but full walled i don't know man, feels bad, put cosmetics like many battle pass games

[manic gust]

Even rocket league has a way to participate enough to earn their season pass. This is just a money grab with little to no consideration of the loyal players.

[naive surge]

that is only the second game I have herd of where you can earn enough "paid currency" on the free season path to purchase the premium path. not a common trait so I'm not sure about the choice of the word "even" 🙂 . Unfortunately it would require the creation of an entirely new system inside Orna since it doesn't have a "paid currency" currently.

[steady bear]

I think the problem it's not the pay in fact, it's the ONLY if you pay can obtain new and power things, new drops for free having the crest feel A LOT BETTER, Even if you up the up rewards in pay or put skins its good, i buy the pass and try to support the game as always, wee have voice for the studio and make changes fast tell a lot, maybe many are big afraid of this being the end of free to play but maybe its the opossite

[manic gust]

Do the full archpath and get a latchstone.

[naive surge]

but without pay you can only do 50%

[manic gust]

I agree. I have bought quite a few sprites, but to participate in the full event for a price is just rude.

[naive surge]

I get what you are saying though. Make the previous one pay for the new one. its a decent option.

[manic gust]

The event shouldn't be pay walled at all. In my opinion anyways. We also asked for a poll, and didn't get that.

[tight palm]

Not every player of the Orna playerbase is able to pay for things and really I didn't like to start seeing paywall features every time more and as a player who is currently unable to purchase feels very frustrating and disappointing to see there are still some items of the archpaths that are paywall-locked. Also several players started playing orna because we really dislike the pay-to-win features many other games show.

[naive surge]

the charts NF put out are really good. There are 4 "Paid items" on the free path and 4 "paid items" on the paid path. there is a clear attempt to get paid Items out from behind the pay wall not keep them in. I think the Aru Anvil is a major power item in the game and that item being strictly on the Pay path is rough but not every XXXPass is a winner even in the same game. so maybe next month (if they do it again) it will be on the free path.

looked back. it was a list from them not a chart. someone else did the chart.

[twin salmon]

They won't post the goodbyes here, and I won't share their names.

But I'm watching kingdom mates and other community members drop the game and leave discord altogether over the implementation of archpaths and the responses we got today.

I hope the whole thing gets reverted, but seeing the damage done by this already is rough, and I'm not sure how much of the goodwill can be won back

[ashen umbra]

On the fence about doing the same myself, not going to lie... unfortunate as it is

But after 5 years Orna isn't looking the same as the game I've enjoyed up until now, for one reason or another

[manic gust]

Unfortunately this is better than they could ask for. As a rising business and gaining publicity, they don't want their loyal players anymore to show how they made an amazing game without pay2play. They want the new players that will be willing to just throw money into the game thoughtlessly. I sincerely hoped that together our voices would show NFS that this was a poor choice, and as you warned it seems they're just going to do it anyways. We asked for polls on this 7 hours ago, the fact I haven't seen any other announcements on this makes me worry that you are entirely right in everything you said.

[ashen umbra]

I want to give the benefit of the doubt that they'll do a poll and such after they get out the panic fixed this new system needs, and are waiting for that part first.
And unfortunately, that part about hearing our voices also doesn't make me hopeful... cause we might end up a vocal minority in the grand scheme and they may weigh that very differently compared to those who are all for the Archpath as it is currently. I see so many people saying "I'm fine with battle passes in my games" and that is frankly disheartening to see for those that know how bad these can be for games as a whole.
Odie did say that they've gotten rid of things before thanks to community outcry, but... we'll just have to see how this one plays out

[manic gust]

If a majority of the community is okay with battle passes I'd relinquish my complaints, but I don't believe a majority of players would encourage it.

They could be fighting fires right now to change things for the archpaths but why do half the job? The polls should be underway while construction is happening.

[junior crypt]

It’s a minor part of the game considering all other content and the waves of raids currently going, I’m not sure majority of players have given it half the thought people here have, max level/high activity/ min max players I think will care about this most

But I doubt that they’re the majority

[naive surge]

yeah, knee-jerk reactions wont help. need time to repair fires, work on other tasks/jobs, and even if they did a poll it would not remove this month. there is no way to get a "Here we deleted it" response. waiting and seeing is the only option.

[ashen umbra]

If a majority of the community is okay with battle passes I'd relinquish my complaints, but I don't believe a majority of players would encourage it.

Given how much of a monetization hellscape the gaming world is nowadays, with daily login stuff, loot boxes, season passes, microtransactions of excessive degrees of amount and costs, etc... and we keep getting them in our video games because enough people are ok with it or don't fight it, especially in the mobile gaming space, I am less than hopeful here.
Yes I know F2P is a whole different beast, but that means it has its own kinds of pitfalls when it comes to monetization.

They could be fighting fires right now to change things for the archpaths but why do half the job? The polls should be underway while construction is happening.

I touched upon this with Odie earlier. He said that sometimes you have to take a chance and not let potential early negative feedback hold back change. On one hand I agree. On the other, well... this happens

[naive surge]

I meet none of those statements. 😄 im not the most lax player but 5 years and still not 250. 🙂

[white abyss]

Battle pass type items make money, if it didn't work, then it would have died off.

If NF chooses to go in that direction the profit will far exceed any losses from folks leaving.

Note: I didn't say that's their long-term plan, but if they did, I think the game will keep thriving. Just with less 4-5 year old accounts .

[ashen umbra]

Which would only validate those who feel like this is a bit of a slap in the face of the game they've come to know and love and dedicate so much time towards

[manic gust]

You're also saying exactly what I said.

[manic gust]

I saw that earlier. The fact they're just pushing back the polls kinda makes me side with Bwubble.

[ashen umbra]

Yeah... Again, hopeful benefit of the doubt that they're wanting to put fires out one at a time first. Not hopeful that they probably want to keep this system in place and modify it until enough people stop lighting fires under them

[white abyss]

Actions trending towards profit driven, while statements trend to heart/passion project.

I'll keep trying to give constructive feedback, NF will decide their goals/direction, and actions will tell us which way they'll continue to trend.

[naive surge]

kind of negative outlook though isnt it? hopefully the feedback makes for a better outcome next month. this one is live and people have paid. its not going to be removed that would be a TON of work. I perfer to wait and see, hope for a better future if you will. :).

[cobalt panther]

Don't really want to hammer on the same subjects that have already been touched on, but I suppose I may as well ask, since I haven't seen much discourse on that.
If NF need money, and this style of monetisation is not welcome, then what is?
Because if cosmetics were bringing enough money to expand NF and to keep bringing us cool new event stuff, then this whole thing wouldn't be happening to begin with

Not advocating for either side. I don't know what is going on inside NF, and I don't have a strong opinion on battlepass style monetisation

[white abyss]

What do they need more money for/where are the budget issues?

The servers are fine according to #1267225454180569180

[ashen umbra]

I think Odie themselves said earlier that they're not scraping for cash right now... which only further burns the question in my mind of why the heck they added a battle pass to the game

[naive surge]

I have put in over $200 in the last 8 months. I have 0 problem with paying them. FOMO and P2W are all i have a problem with. Historically speaking I dont think you can find a game with any kind of "pass" that has not had an issue/complaints with FOMO and P2W.

[manic gust]

Odie has clearly stated NF doesn't need the money, they are doing this to expand themselves.

[pliant lotus]

I did like the idea of early access for the key, someone buys it and they could do all 25 days at once
I play HoA, the game is basically a copy of Orna with a static map... Migrate the map into Orna and make it one game and save costs maintaining two.

[cobalt panther]

Not scraping for cash doesn't mean they have plenty for going around. They can afford what they have, but what if they want to hire more programmers, more artists, or buy better servers?

[ashen umbra]

True

[pliant lotus]

And yeah they need better servers, at least for HoA every morning in US time it is slow, it was unusable one day this week that they had to do emergency maintenance

[cobalt panther]

Having more of them means faster patches, more bug fixes, more content, less issues

(Again, I'm not a part of NF, so I'm not really saying that this is what is happening. Kinda just asking, if you were in their shoes, and you need money to afford expanding, and cosmetic stuff ain cutting it, where do you get that extra money from?)

[tight palm]

optional ads that give rewards

[manic gust]

It's deliberately to profit.

[ivory oak]

Clearly ads is the worst option XDDDD

[junior crypt]

I’d rather battle passes than ads

[manic gust]

I honestly said ads. I'd take ads over pay walling an event in a "f2p" game.

[cobalt panther]

I'm also agreeing that this isn't the best implementation, and that it could be improved on; but I think it's not a bad system at its core.
As NF said, this is a compromise with the packs that have been happening for a while. You get half the pack for free

[manic gust]

But the other half of the pack is tied to the event that you can't participate in.

[ashen umbra]

You're not wrong, John.
A decent portion of my response towards this is I'm also just kind of fed up with some of this stuff. Mobile gaming is such an absolute cesspool of over-monetized crap and systems built to create FOMO, keep people logging in every day, and spending more and more money.
Orna pushed against that practice for the longest time. Good intentions on their part or not, they are plain and simply not on that side of things any more, and that's what really hurts

[junior crypt]

To grow? Did you miss that?

[pliant lotus]

Honestly as an HoA player I really do mean migrate to here, the player base is way too small anyways and things like this will shrink it further.

[cobalt panther]

This is an incredibly polarising opinion, as you can imagine. Many, many people will hate ads just as much if not more than they hate battlepasses, so the problem would remain

[manic gust]

I said for profits. Was that not given to the growing part?

[cobalt panther]

And?
You could participate in exactly 0 of the pack in previous months if you didn't pay for it, now you get half of it

[manic gust]

Make a purchase for removing ads.

[tight palm]

I see, but I would rather to have optional ads than seeing lots of paywalls in a game

[manic gust]

The pack wasn't an event. It was buyable content for the month.

[junior crypt]

for profit generally not the same as for growth, but if that’s what you meant my mistake

[naive surge]

I agree with you. growth for the studio is a good thing for everyone. I dont think we are short on events so adding new ones while fun and exciting might take a back seat in my book. Fixing class balance and class identity is a big one. pop a couple headcount in that. messaging might be another investment. Discord is the only place I get good info about How/Why. maybe better help tips/ingame codex? I bought these aru anvils didnt know how crazy they were until today 😄 lol. I also agree that the system of passes is at its core not "bad" proper communication and messaging can go a long way as well. as with everything in the world. taking a step back and communicating rationally makes everything better.

[pliant lotus]

There is no win, some people on our guild group say they would quit if ads. Some hate the battle pass. It is a tricky situation that was created by NF.

[ivory oak]

The "event" is a pack diluyed in form of aditional clicks

[cobalt panther]

This isn't an "event" either. The event is Winter Wild Hunts, the whole stuff going on outside with the three days of events, ten times.
This is a pack that was split apart in an advent calendar style, that you get to interact with half for free.

[naive surge]

right.

[manic gust]

What do you interpret growth as for a business?

@ivory oak the whole game is a form of clicks to begin with. The event for the month shouldn't be pay walled.

@cobalt panther it's funny you paint it like that, because a month ago Odie specifically claimed there'd be extra events, not advent calendars. Odie also didn't split hairs over verbiage.

[white abyss]

There was basically a riot in this server btw when NF added a login popup that you had to dismiss twice, until they scaled it back to the current event button on the map.

Ads would likely go very very poorly here.

[cobalt panther]

Not sure what you are talking about hairs and verbs. And I don't know what Odie message you are referring to. I don't claim to know everything 😅

[naive surge]

I have one thought on "cosmetic stuff aint cutting it" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHZru-6M8BY cosmetics are 1000% the best option in my opinion for microtransactions.

[indigo crow]

That WoW horse.

[naive surge]

yeah... lol.

big sadge for me as well... I LOVED SC2.

[manic gust]

Splitting hairs is an idiom, verbiage is a choice of words.

When Odie was in here we referred to the Archpath as an event and he never said it wasn't an event.

[junior crypt]

Growth being money funneled to departments for better equipment/more personal, for profit generally meaning just more money into personal pockets (usually negative connotation)

[ivory oak]

This is not the event of the month, is a extra feature that they are first time using it, the event of the month is the 3 days of raids, if u think 3 anvils and 3 mmenomic are a event you are wrong, and odie stated that this way of "content" is better for f2p players in general because we have acces to extra items that in other event pack, wouldnt have

[manic gust]

Profit is a part of capital in a business. Unless they're liquidating assets to further progression they'd have to go into profits to expand.

[white abyss]

That url was awful, thanks for fixing it lol.

Odie's claim that cosmetics weren't cutting it. I'm not a shareholder in NF, so I'm stuck taking his word for it. I still say give us mounts lol.

Actual speed boost in HOA, cosmetic for us?

[tight palm]

But still there are some paywall-locked items that are completely not accessible to f2p users, and that's a problem for several players

[junior crypt]

Sure I understand what you’re saying, I was just pointing out that colloquially they don’t mean the same thing

[manic gust]

Like Ceri said, the items are moot. They're mostly in game earnable. The point is it shouldn't be pay walled to complete.

[quick flame]

While I don't necessarily agree with the paywall on the event, at the end of the day NF needs to make money to grow.

The items aren't really that big of a make or break for the game. I was looking forward to the sprite, but meh I guess. The biggest item is the jewel and the raid boost which are on the free path.

[naive surge]

can someone explain what item is Paywall locked that changes the game in a meaningful way respectfully and in a thought out way?

and Wrecked, NF has an investor? thats news to me. I thought it was "employee owned"

[quick flame]

A quick Google will tell ya what you need to know

Or LinkedIn

[regal lynx]

Oh, we're still going? Fuck yeah, pour me a shot.

Throw the items in as rare EoD rewards.

[naive surge]

LMAO. now calm down. reasonable discussion in a calm logical manner please. 😄

[verbal glade]

Whats happening here

[naive surge]

What days are those so I can set a calendar event to not miss it 😄

[manic gust]

Regardless of the items the whole Archpath should be f2p. The final reward should be a buyable item.

[naive surge]

everyone seems to be hot about "Pay to win" features and that the items are pay to win. if they are pay to win how do they alter the game that is not possible to attain for free? I am playing devils advocate here. I don't like passes because they promote FOMO. (hence me setting a calendar reminder so i dont miss out). Looking at the list of items I see a few items that have moved from Pay only to be on the free side now. that should be making the F2P side happy.

[ivory oak]

3 dragon remains, completely unbalanced, time to uninstall orna i cant with the p2w goodbye everyone

[astral scarab]

the biggest p2w complaint was getting a crest of felling, but NF rapidly reversed having that in the paid rewards set.

[manic gust]

I'd take ads over pay walls personally.

[naive surge]

pins has a chart. Pay only items are bold. its split about 50/50 pay items in paid side and free side.

[ashen umbra]

I wonder how many times people can mention the item discussion while completely missing that the issue isn't just about the items

[naive surge]

do not agree. and how is it a pay wall? no one can tell me an item in the paid side that cant be reflected for free.

[ashen umbra]

Because you are paying money in order to access more items, half of the items available in fact

What the items are doesn't matter

[naive surge]

but you had no access to those items before. the free side of this gives you items you used to have to pay for.

[ivory oak]

This xddd

[manic gust]

The fact that you can't do it without paying.

[ashen umbra]

That doesn't make it all good and ok and fine and not an issue

[noble dock]

Please keep in mind that this effort is un-paywalling our previous event packs. It leads F2P players with more access to rewards/content, objectively speaking

[astral scarab]

I don't think the dissatisfaction currently really related to being p2w.

Instead it's more about having quests behind a paywall, and that battle passes are very common in other scummy games. There's certainly something a little bad about getting people to pay for things and then the rewards timing out.

This implementation does avoid the extreme requirement of daily login that some other battle passes have; there is some leeway in being able to complete it for up to two months at own pace.

As for ads -- please stop mentioning that. That's the absolute worst. 😅

[manic gust]

It's un pay walling half of something you designed. It's more than they were getting, but it's still a pay to play feature.

[naive surge]

I dont think it does. but what changes what are you missing out on? is it just the collection of the item itself? If so the items on the pay side might be on the free side next month. we dont know, as stated this is removing items from pay only side.

[noble dock]

i just came back to this thread to thank everyone for the productive conversation earlier and to close the loop

I've explained the motivations behind this, and that we're not interested in operating outside of our moral compass. I'm not sure why there is desire to keep misrepresenting that

at the end of the day, we're not interested in scummy stuff, p2w

[real egret]

If fey jorm finally drops that fing chest I'll watch all of the ads you want

[noble dock]

we may have different definition of pay2play here

[naive surge]

Thank you for coming back to close the loop.

[manic gust]

The fact the calendar is only half accessible means the other half is pay to play.

[indigo crow]

And at the final reward is locked.

[ivory oak]

do u want everything free? Odin gives odie money every 10 days to maintain the game and lauch more updates

[noble dock]

NF does not have any investors - this kind of misinformation is really damaging. please don't

[naive surge]

thats what I found as well...

[verbal glade]

Orna getting ads?

[outer pendant]

Add the "Premium pay-walled" rewards as Ang 2.0 loot drops for higher level of anguish. Gets them in the game so people don't have to have fomo and buy them and gets more people into endgame content for interesting stuff. If people want extras they can get them via the pass but at least it's accessible in the game not cash

[real egret]

Nah that will never happen. I'm just being whiny

[manic gust]

Wrong quote. Sorry Odie.

[manic gust]

No. I personally buy sprit packs and town packs. I don't much care for your demeanor though. Please refrain from accusatory questions like that, or going forward I will block you.

[astral scarab]

The final reward being a paid sprite is not a change. It's been paid sprites for quite some time.
Doing an in-game quest and getting a paid sprite isn't bad.

The only major concern re: battlepasses is just the "timing out", afaict.

[real egret]

Off topic I'm getting a big ol smack of karma this evening. I made my daughter a grilled turkey and cheese and she's spent the last 20 minutes screaming about how disgusting it is. Sorry mom. I get it now.

[naive surge]

LMAO.

[manic gust]

Did she pay for half of it?

[verbal glade]

Real

[ashen umbra]

The collection of the item is one thing, yes. The issue I have with this is just the whole battle pass thing as a concept in general, just because I know what it does elsewhere. I'm not happy seeing it here

[naive surge]

I agree, FOMO seems to be the most defensible position on aversion to the battle pass. not that any position is wrong of course.

[quick flame]

That is probably something that should be cleared up with Google and articles I have read on the game. If the person mentioned is you, that's fine. But it isn't what the articles stated and that is open for the world to see.

[naive surge]

Is it possible that your aversion is more to the FOMO and less to the fact that its paid? would it maybe be more palatable if it was communicated to everyone earlier? or perhaps a preview in the world news page?

[still plume]

Odie can create a website were you only see ads, and everyone of us can see 10 daily

[manic gust]

If that would supply NFS, I'd happily do it every day and twice on Sundays.

[real egret]

She's probably 20k in the hole by now. Kids are expensive man

[naive surge]

I get 2 monthly packs most months. ill pass on ads please. 🙂 they break immersion.

[real egret]

I'm about to start monetizing her squishmellows

[manic gust]

Oh trust me. Baby Bix is almost two now.

[real egret]

Congrats! I have a 6 year old and a 7 mo old

[noble dock]

Perhaps we're at the point of the conversation where we can start talking about solutions to the "FOMO" sentiment.

access to all days of the month? access to 5-7 days prior? obviously it's solved with a latchstone, but this seems to stem from the other side

[manic gust]

Congrats to you as well! Orna family outtings are our favorite pass time.

[manic gust]

I'd like to see a way to earn latchstones in game with in game currency, if we are already on that train.

[noble dock]

that's an option. guild shops were mentioned above. i don't think it's great for low tiers though

[naive surge]

I would say its assisted with the latchstone. For example, The Festive scroll rewards say that they are only usable during the wild hunts. so even though you can earn them afterwards you cant use them afterwards. unless you wait a year. 😄

[manic gust]

You could make it proofs of distance, really dig into the heart and spirit of the game.

[pliant lotus]

Could make them earnable with deep shards then, good for low tier

Proofs of distance don't exist in HoA

[manic gust]

Thank you for that heads up.

[real egret]

I can't imagine it'd be an easy adjustment on your end, but what about if you achieve a 7 day login streak you unlock the latchstone quests as well?

[indigo crow]

I think there are things on the archpath that low tiers won't be able to do anyway.

[manic gust]

Arisen enemies for sure.

[still plume]

Um, nah, that's too much, maybe a way to get items that are from packs in EoD rewards, and legend rarity to make it fair

[ashen umbra]

Good set of questions. Sorry for the delay, dinner needed my attention.

• I take issue with both the FOMO and paid part both. But that is just an aversion to battle passes in general. Having ways to get Latchstones in game would reduce the problem in my mind a good bit, but it would not fully resolve their existence in my mind.
• It absolutely should have been communicated to everyone earlier, and I'm kind of surprised it wasn't. One mention in the monthly video and then it was on our laps, no in-between.
• A preview would have been good as well, yes

[manic gust]

I disagree. In a free to play game this is the remedy this situation needs.

[quartz lance]

Time is beyond monetary value

[real egret]

Id personally be content if you made all quests available to everyone, with the latchstone unlocking all days early

[naive surge]

Hmm... ok earning the latches is not an aspect of FOMO but we can go that direction instead. My suggestion would be that completing every "challenge" (even if you are not on the premium path) could allow you to "earn" a latchkey for the next event. this aleviates the P2P sentiment but increases the FOMO problem. Missing 1 day means no free pass for you. thats rough for everyday people.

[real egret]

Adding that I think that was people's original understanding of how the latchstone worked anyways

[still plume]

Oh, that's what FOMO means, yeah that thing is horrible

[manic gust]

That's why I think an in game currency would be best. Those who ritualistically play will be rewarded for their loyalty, and those newbies that want in on the fun can for a price.

[naive surge]

that's an interesting prospect. you alleviate some of the FOMO by paying, that's reasonable. I feel the rewards would need to be lower on this method but it would be an option for sure.

[naive surge]

adding a currency sounds an aweful lot like a "Proof of xxxx" system. what is your proposed metric for earning the new currency?

[indigo crow]

I don't think he was talking about a new currency but using one that already exists.

[manic gust]

Either Proofs of Distance, Deep Shards, or Proofs of Felling in my opinion.

[indigo crow]

I'd like to trade 2400 fish for a latchkey please.

[manic gust]

Honestly all guilds having a latchkey set at a certain price might be a good way to go.

[naive surge]

no worries, sorry it took me so long to reply to you. Im with you. I hate battlepasses. i dunno if im on the spectrum or what but im a completionist. not having purchased this makes my skin crawl but I know its in my head and I need to think about it rationally thats why Im here talking with yall.

General response to guild coins being used. I agree with this method. it is a good way to track "dedication" for lack of a better term. That being said. there are alot of charts out there about Time involved in getting each kind of token. I live rural area (and land locked) so the easiest/cheepest methods of "paying for things with proofs" are a bit hard.

[manic gust]

Make them half the price as a Heart of Change.

[naive surge]

😄 that is a large time investment.

[ashen umbra]

No worries! And yeah, that alone is a huge FOMO issue here

[manic gust]

Time is money. I think it would be fair.

[naive surge]

I would go so far as to say HUUUGE!! 😄

[naive surge]

I can agree with the method. general investment in the pass via $$ would remain largely unaffected I think as HOC are incredibly expensive.
- Funny enough I think that even lines up in $$ i THINK i remember seeing a HOC for $15 once. 😄

[real egret]

Not feasible this year, but split the key into 3 pieces and give strange gifts a chance to drop them. Combine to get they key.

Encourages play and it's f2p

[naive surge]

and makes another use for the 10K gifts some have sitting around 😄

it would have to be a very very low chance and only while you have the alfar token active or some such hoopy sort of setup.

[manic gust]

I do think a facet of "if I have a latchkey, they should be cheaper to buy" would be good as well

[naive surge]

I think that might step to far into an actual Battlepass instead of a more "advent calendar" situation that they seem to want to call it right now.

[manic gust]

Let's be real. This is the first of many to come.

If this is where we are there should be a coupon of sorts for the loyal players.

[naive surge]

But it would not be out of the relm... "those who pay 15$ a month get items xxx for cheaper" is a very very common game mechanic(ESO, Xboxlive just to name 2)

[naive surge]

I dont disagree BUT we have to treat it as a single until we know otherwise.

[manic gust]

I can almost guarantee it.

[naive surge]

like I said, I dont disagree but we have to treat it that way until we know otherwise.

Borrowing tomorrows problems wont help solve today's issues. I think thats osme wise mans saying or other. 😄

[manic gust]

We should move forward in this with the concept of this as a reoccurring thing.

[pliant lotus]

I think on the newsletter it was clearly stated they wanted to do more of these archpaths

[indigo crow]

I believe Bwubble made a decent argument for this not being the first step.

[manic gust]

If we consider it as reoccurring, we have an idea how much initial push back we need to give.

[naive surge]

OK. I can alter my perspective to consider it a recurring trend.

In which case our reasonable discussion is an asset that they can use for the future.

[noble dock]

As I’ve said in the pins, we’re going to experiment, but we don’t need to run this again if it’s ultimately not successful with the community

[kind wave]

Best would be to make it an advent calandar where you can arrive 10 day late and be fine, latchstone still give the extra rewards. But giving 5-7 days still would be a huge improvement

I was more than happy with your inital suggestion of 3-5 days

[manic gust]

Honestly, you all deserve to make some good money and lining your pockets. As Lamp said earlier you guys deserve a 401k, and expensive hobbies. The happier you are the more that will show in future events, sprites, events, etc.

My only qualm is how this is being executed. I don't like the 50/50 bit of it. Make the full month f2p and have a deluxe month with the latchstone. Or have the latchstone as an earnable resource, via in game currencies, complicated quests, inviting people to the game, etc. The latchstones aren't a bad idea, but they do need to be readdressed. This doesn't favor loyal players in any sort of fashion and the loyal players word of mouth are what got these new players. You said yourself this is for growth and not due to hardships, merely an experiment. But in that experiment you have to realize the test subjects have a right to get up and walk away.

[naive surge]

I want to be very careful engaging Bwubble's comments earlier.
While I understand where he is coming from Change and progress are a fact of life. there are things that I am unhappy with as well (Suggestion post 11a76grc for example) looking at things with an ultimatum in your pocket does not lead to meaningful or constructive discussion. I want to talk about this not "evaluate and judge" it(that might not quite be the way to say it but hopefully you catch my drift). Please share your outlook and i wont judge it. I may ask questions that are hard but think about it and discuss. thats how we get a good solution for everyone.

[pliant lotus]

There needs to be some time leeway considering day 1 not everyone even had the update for the event and coming into day 1 we thought we had 60 days so didn't seem like an issue

[kind wave]

really depends on how much you see giving access to previous days a tug of war with your vision of why previous days should not be accessible

[ashen umbra]

You said yourself this is for growth and not due to hardships, merely an experiment. But in that experiment you have to realize the test subjects have a right to get up and walk away.

Dang that's well put

[kind wave]

as for the 50/50, on my side, you made a seperate one and gave us all this one, and you would..... still end up with a 50/50, but at least this one would mean every day we are getting something, but we would all still be aware of missing out on something if we don't pay. idk

[manic gust]

More so for completionists. I want to see I did everything at least in a f2p sense.

[naive surge]

I agree its 50/50 either way. your option there would allow everyone to get to 100% of the challenges though. so thats a slight change.

[kind wave]

Season passes mentality usualy is about an extra reward track and the only thing is that the season end at a specific date, but you are free to progress at your own speed with the risk of not being able to finish it in time

[naive surge]

true, they also usually run much longer than a month.

[steady bear]

Maybe a arch path 2.0 making along whith the players maybe be a Lot more better and MANY more buying players, take ideas, make many poll then and then drop a nice way to support the game

[manic gust]

At least 60 days in this to complete everything.

[naive surge]

Kind of... some of the items are only usable this month. you would have to hold them for a year if you dont complete by end of wild hunt event.

[manic gust]

Odie stated earlier there's a 60 day period to complete the Archpath for latchkey holders.

[naive surge]

yeah. you can complete it after the event ends but you cant use some of the rewards. Its a technicality almost, I dont care about sitting on something for a year, i did manage to get it atleast.

[steady bear]

And all players are going super happy to get the last, even if you put more in pay side of pass it's ok, You can get sometimes playing, and waiting to SEE what come next pass, mix skin- extra final item, maybe final ítems of another months in pay side, can do pass days etc

[naive surge]

I dont think EoD rewards is a good option. I know its an option but I would support either of Schism's suggestions you linked over dungeon rewards. that loot pool is large enough and hunted enough that diluting it is a tough sell to me.

[steady bear]

Maybe whith adjust this can be a success, but remaking along whith community or talk/poll's whith wee, the players, maybe can help to create a 2.0 arch or a new thing for more money to the studio having all happy

[noble dock]

of course. nothing we create will ever be final here. improvements are to come

[steady bear]

Maybe in other way to obtain playing, many players just cant o don't want play to get, can use the money of time working to get in a fairly amount, just have a way playing, the pool its big yeah, but can reemplace one low/useless item maybe or tweak the % drop a bit to keep the actual % of things like BoG

[manic gust]

Someone earlier mentioned $50 customizable sprites. This is off topic, but that's a fucking idea. Pardon my French. A lot of long time players would fork that cash over, granted that could be the last sprite they buy, which I feel would justify the price.

[naive surge]

yeah, I agree. having a way to earn through gameplay would be good. so far the best Gameplay loops for it I have heard are the Presents with a alfar token to make it harder(though this would be seasonal). and the "must have 7 day streak to have access to the quest, loose streak, start over." both sound promising. detailed things like that are almost impossible for the average person but do provide the "look its earnable" aspect needed. i have seen instances of both in F2P games

[steady bear]

Maybe this can be ending better in the end, maybe not just a good and very success Arch patch, more things like this or make community contest to create skin packs, 10 whith more votes enter, i don't know man, many people its many ideas to make fair content to buy

[manic gust]

That's fair

[naive surge]

while I like the thought $50 is not really enough. 🙂 Im not an artist but anything I try to draw takes much longer than an hour or two and you are talking about 100s of hours of work. 😄 sounds like alot but its not. you might be able to make something like that worth it if you had a general sprite with a few options (mustache/axe/sword...) but I dont think people would fork $50 for it.

[tight palm]

I once suggested to bring to the game some sprites created by community

[manic gust]

That's also fair.

[manic gust]

Shoot me an AR please. I don't think we've met.

[tight palm]

IGN?

[naive surge]

thats an idea.... $50 to import an approved sprite might be doable?

[manic gust]

Bix Shadette

[naive surge]

totally off topic but... 😄

[tight palm]

alr

sent

[old wave]

That would be super cool. Would probably have Covyn quaking in his Dark Leggings though 😂 also hi @naive surge, nice to see a local player!

[naive surge]

😄 I was thinking the same thing watching you "typing..." 😄

[steady bear]

Having many more forms to get income for the studio it's good, Even for the Arch path, quit a Lot of pressure in the new sistem, don't need to get so many money, in the end many forms make people more happy and buy more in total

[naive surge]

That is true.

[steady bear]

Anyone know what happen or if it's the studio working in skins for weapons/gear? Maybe even a revamp sistem where you can alter every part of the PJ? (You can use base or pay skin for every part and this it's not just more for players, but more income for the studio? A toogle for each part or full skin maybe, im sure people's can make better suggestions of this and the studio make a lot better of this u saying

[naive surge]

as far as I have heard there is no work on weapon skins.

[noble dock]

you're not here anymore, but in case someone wants to provide you the answer: Google has to collect VAT for you

[ashen umbra]

Oh jeez, they are gone, huh...

[manic gust]

He was providing false information. I don't believe in silencing critical opposition so I just looked into it. Not only does Google have NFS as privately owned, their LinkedIn does as well. He was lying through his teeth and deserved a removal, but left on their own.
**edited for accuracy. Thanks Odie.

[noble dock]

they left themself. no removal

[ashen umbra]

Was just gonna say, I think you got the person confused

[manic gust]

Well if you would have removed them I would have been on your side brother.

[fallen moss]

This chat was wild lmao

[steady bear]

Or maybe someone hack him, him expose his mail .-.

[fallen moss]

I dont think that's who said that... lols

Unless their messages were deleted entirely about that and there was 2 people who claimed it haha

[unborn gust]

Yo sólo me quedaré observando como si nada. 🐢

[hasty cypress]

[manic gust]

Oh no, you're right!

[noble dock]

they said he was final, then he got adorns 🤷‍♂️

[kind wave]

this is why we don't have centaurs, we already got the final horseman

[quick flame]

That was me. And I'll shoot you a DM.

[manic gust]

You can, but as I said, I looked into it myself.

[quick flame]

Feel free to look again

[manic gust]

I don't want to be rude but I'd advise the same.

[quick flame]

I edited my previous statement on here so it didn't clash and 'misinform', but you can look at the DM or not. Lol.

Anyways. Doesn't belong here, so continue on with whatever was being said. Just clarifying it wasn't 0x that had said it

[manic gust]

I replied.

[marble frost]

Wow. Lots of passionate posts in here.

Nothing in the Advent calendar that you are required pay for actually boosts your gameplay, right? Most is just QoL enhancing items. Except the crest of felling I suppose. Make crest obtainable in game free to play somehow and all of this goes away, yeah?

I understand the sentiment. This trends towards those horrible paywall games, but NF needs to get paid for this awesome game somehow. How is 8$ for 2 sprites and a crest much different than 25$ for a few sprites?

I didn't read the full 1300 messages in here but tried my best to understand. The backlash is a lot for something seemingly menial. If you don't want to pay for it, don't. Theres nothing to miss out on TBH.

This is just offering an alternative perspective, of course.

[umbral haven]

^ This post has completely missed the point of the conversation entirely. its not about what is in the pack, it is about how it was rolled out, how so many people still currently need clarification on how it works, and a good amount people arent sitting in discords reddits and other places to gain this information to begin with. The rewards and stuff could be 1 wood per day, but that still doesnt change how abysmally awful how it was handeled to begin with

[dim thistle]

You can farm up 20-30 dms in an hour easy so that price is insanely steep. And I have no issues spending money on the game. Just putting my 2 cents in because a lot of people complained about being able to buy them but they're easily farmable. Shrines are more p2w imo and I haven't seen a single person mention them

Edit: For context this was a reply to someone asking if we would buy 100 dms for 100$. Not sure what point they were trying to make exactly but they deleted

Edit 2: I could be persuaded to do 500 dms for 100$ but less than that I'd just farm them

[magic tulip]

30 DMs in an hour? I’m going to need that farming method in my life please

[dim thistle]

I farm roughly 24/hour in towers and beo is not the best tower class at all. And monuments are potentially better than that if the events are good

[magic tulip]

120k tower shards/hour is a very endgame stat and not something 99% of the player base can even get close to achieving. Towers are also in limited supply so it’s not something that can be done consistently.

100 DMs would give a low AL player enough mats for a few AL. Purchasing DMs is pretty much buying mat bundles and that’s why I have a problem with it

[dim thistle]

Fortunately you can't buy 100 dms with real money, yet.

[still stratus]

Tbf, some1 asked if ppl are okay with NF offering 100 DM for 100bucks (which is purely hypothetical and never happened before, and hopefully dont happen in future)

That post had since been deleted

[magic tulip]

If you add up all event packs released this year, you can. And they are still pay-only in the archpath, which further adds to that

[dim thistle]

Sure but:

1: It's spread out over many months, not all in one go

2: Really expensive, more than the 100$ amount floated earlier, I think. Honestly if you wanna pay odies mortgage that bad go nuts.

I just don't feel like the current amount is problematic yet. And again why are shrines not considered as p2w? Mostly just curious

[verbal glade]

Thats because shrines are easily found in OW afaik

(I am not disagreeing with your previous arguments tho, a game needs money to strive and to grow, and in the end, all games are "supposed" to bring profit to it's creator[s])

[verbal glade]

But like Bordoadas said, you can quite literally buy more than 100 DMs throughout the year, which is some orns. Im sure the price for it, being monthly, is barely anything to anyone with a steady job/life. If you don't have a steady life tho, why are you playing games in the first place?

[dim thistle]

It really depends on your play style because if you farm while moving a lot they're everywhere but that's not me and not the average player either

[timid idol]

I think Bordoadas is more thinking about the materials because in term of orns, if you take 1 million per DM, doesn't account for anything compared to a single endless run unless we're talking very very low AL new T10 with no stuff.
I'm also not very happy with the direction it takes, but I really can't consider the current shop as P2W.

[verbal glade]

Its the purpose of the game, tho

[verbal glade]

I totally agree with you, mats are truly something important on matters of AL, and giving mats in a paid way is a bit trashy

[magic tulip]

Mats are the bigger issue imo, as they end up being your progression lock sooner or later

[verbal glade]

Still, in DMs, mats are random (afaik) so that's at least a positive point

[regal lynx]

The rate is still tiny. 100 DMs a year? You passively get 365 a year. And someone who's spending $100+ a year is opening the guild every day. That doesn't include the fact that just playing the game without spending currency on them at all is going to give you several per day. Again, a player buying every pack is going to do enough to farm these passively, just as Runeshop rolls, tower rewards, etc.

And that's without ever trying to farm them. You can comfortably farm that several times over per day with only a little bit of farming.

[eternal stump]

Also STILL no answer as to why people in different countries are expected to pay different amounts 🤔

[magic tulip]

That has to do with App Store restrictions and different tax rates I believe

[eternal stump]

I found out that I have to pay DOUBLE what a player in South America

[eternal stump]

This

[magic tulip]

If “you can farm them anyway” means it’s okay to sell them, than should we start selling anguish tokens? Tower shards?

If we assume 250mats per DM (which I think is a low estimate assuming you’re using full boosters), 150 DMs (since you’ll be recycling them continuously for more DMs) would equal around 37.5k mats. This is not a negligible power boost being bought, especially when you consider that you can get through all those DMs in 2 hours.

Comparatively a f2p player would have to farm for substantially more hours to first obtain those DMs to get the same benefit

[gritty jackal]

They also make a lot less money, and most of them can't afford it anyway

#1313871347176177804 message

[eternal stump]

Lol that's very stereotype

[cobalt panther]

This isn't exactly something that is new anywhere in the world; ever.
The entirety of Steam does it, per example

Economies are not the same; what costs as much as a coffee to you can be prohibitively expensive elsewhere

[eternal stump]

Yeah I guess it's just the amount difference that shocking

[cobalt panther]

You can be unhappy about it if you want, but that's just how global prices work

There's a reason some people use VPNs and stuff to change their location while buying steam games or netflix subscriptions or whichever it is

I wouldn't advise doing that with orna since it'll accuse you of spoofing though.

[gritty jackal]

Nah, that's the reality

[gritty jackal]

This

[cobalt panther]

Just in Europe per example, you can have median wages of countries varying wildly, some down as low as 500 euro per month, others as high as 2000 (numbers vaguely grabbed from head, no source provided)

They all use the same currency, yet the buying power of some of those is quadruple of others

And in that case the currency isn't even updated. I pay as much in Portugal as I would in Norway, despite the uh... yeah.

[eternal stump]

Thanks for clarification

Still feels like way too much, £30 for a few moving sprites when I could virtually buy an entire switch game seems..............excessive

I'm of the opinion that if they charged less they would get more sales 🤔

[cobalt panther]

That's something for their marketing people to figure out I'm afraid

They've had cheaper sprites for a long time, so it's not like they don't have points of comparison

Not to mention the moving ones take a lot more effort from covyn

[finite shard]

That's why there's different levels of expenditure available, wouldn't you say? You can't expect S tier sprites without paying S tier money

[eternal stump]

Yep, I have bought some of the cheaper ones to show support of the studio

Wouldn't exactly call em S tier, but each to their own, not here to try and tell others how to spend their money

[half yew]

Buying for "what you get" is not support. Buying just to support is. What you get for it is just bonus.

All of this. This entire mental exercise has all been about supporting the studio and everyone has failed. Everyone.

[hasty cypress]

As someone whom has an entertainment budget a month, I was happy having a new fun engaging way to support the game I'm sweatiest at

[half yew]

When you love someone and they do something that you don't like, you don't drag them through the mud.

[hasty cypress]

No you spank them 😏

I think the missions closer to the end of the month will drive up player engagement and retention.

Historiaclly end of month is slow for orna, and maybe this is partly an attempt to help drive that up in the winter months especially.

[half yew]

Mrs Lamp would agree. But it's still done lovingly.

[regal lynx]

Ballpark estimate, no precision necessary. How many DMs can a typical 250 player farm?

[cobalt panther]

Entirely depends on the individual and how much they play

[regal lynx]

(Per hour, oops)

[hasty cypress]

Depends on monuments. I'd guess between 15 and 20 with those.

I can get 200+/- proofs per thunder monument during the last wild wave (Crimson + balor + xmas).

Each take approx 5 to 10 minutes. So like 60 maybe top end try hard everything spawns situation.

[cobalt panther]

Doing towers is also an alternative; as a f50 tower can give ~25k shards in 15 or so minutes, which nets you 5 mnemonics plus however many end of floor rewards

Though both towers and monuments have limited accessibility

[hasty cypress]

I don't think people farm seer guild as much as publicly believed

[regal lynx]

Ope, was supposed to be a reply.

[regal lynx]

This lacks a few important pieces of context.

Tower Shards and Anguish Tokens have a difficulty curve that limits their farming capability. DMs are only really limited by time.

So how much time are you buying? At a rate of 100 per year, that's around 1 per 3 days. Using the above ballpark minimum number of 15 per hour, and the assumption that a person can only do one hour per day with no other gains, that's 45 per 3 days.

That's an abhorrent waste of money/time, even if we only use the barest minimum of numbers.

The amount of mats for your purchase isn't relevant as an isolated piece of data. It has to be stacked against the alternative, which is in this case, at least 45x more productive. You're buying what is less than a 2% increase in productivity.

[half yew]

I have like 800 DMs. I didn't buy it for the dms. I bought it for the fun. I bought it to support the studio. I didn't buy rewards.

I understand the concern for the slope. I understand their concern for things being changed after a purchase was made. I fell into that camp for a few minutes until I realized that I didn't really care they could take all the rewards away and I pay for the advent. It's a cool feature. With all the feedback they have I'm sure they will find a more universal way to implement it and still benefit the studio.

[regal lynx]

I'd add another potential positive to this:

While it isn't even a drop in the puddle compared to people like Lamp, Dro, etc, it could make a world of difference to players who aren't able to leave their homes often, especially those with accessibility issues. You're able to multiply their DMs(and other such items) drastically, while not affecting anyone within the top 10,000 of players.

[timid idol]

From what I understand, there's only 2 "problematic" items, just change them in paid packs and everyone is happy.
Now they can focus on UX problems.

[regal lynx]

See, this is how I feel. Change the problem items, and add those items that can't be acquired in game at all to EOD or something.

[timid idol]

A cool modification to the pass that could make me buy it is replace the unique sprite with a ticket that let you chose 1 of the event sprite.
It would reduce the work load on covyn + everyone would be happy to have the sprite they wanted instead of buying 10 sprites just to use 1.
you could even go as far as letting people stack like 3 tikets to be able to buy an animated sprite.

[half yew]

Maybe if you won the ability to roll and get a random one. But otherwise 7.99 to be able to get a $30 Sprite diminishes the value of the sprite. I think the sprites that come with this are pretty dang cool.

[hasty cypress]

I hope to see this implemented more in the future. I support and have faith that NFS isn't going to lock any gameplay content behind paywalls now, or in the future.

Initial release could have used a way to grind out the latchkey, ala monument proofs for HoC, to alleviate the p2W concerns and diminish accusations of sinister motives.

I honestly would love to see a challenging version of this; like the Anguish Archpath. For long time supporters and end game whales.

[still stratus]

Part of the difference is due to the VAT collected in each countries

Source: #1313871347176177804 message

[silent cloud]

Kill 250 bosses for day 1 mission

Or double that? Idk

[vapid wedge]

I'm honestly very 50/50 on the idea of this achpath i honestly think this might just be a one time thing for Christmas

[upper escarp]

I'm sorry but Maximum FOMO: The Event is a huge miss for me. The idea that missing a SINGLE day makes the entire month a waste of time unless you pay just feels like the most scummy thing and is making me see NF in a light I normally reserve for companies like Sony and Google.
Preventing you from collecting previous days' rewards that you COMPLETED THE QUEST FOR is by far the most devious and frankly awful decision to me, and speaks to a very bad mindset behind it. This single event is making me question any further support of NF.

[noble dock]

The FOMO part has some good solutions above if you'd like to read up on them. we'll likely go one of the routes

[gritty jackal]

How does missing one day makes the entire month a waste of time?

If you miss one day you miss the reward for that day and that's it, lol

If you complete all the days without getting the key, you won't get the final reward anyway, so it doesn't really matter

And if you get the latchstone, as of now, you have 60 days to complete all the quests, and you can also complete the ones you missed

[upper escarp]

Even worse. Because that's not at all conveyed anywhere. This isn't even a swing and a miss, this is a hard miss that could, and should, have been visible from the next solar system.

[mystic wasp]

surprise, you missed the 25th day (which has jewel of destruction) or one of the rarer items on the free calendar, but it has already been noted and will probably be worked on as odie mentioned above.

[marble frost]

#1313871347176177804 message
This sums things up pretty well tbh

[gritty jackal]

That still doesn't have anything to do with the whole month being a waste of time though

[mystic wasp]

i'll stop responding because it's going to be worked on anyways, no purpose on debating on something that it will be changed anyways

[half yew]

Can we stop with the "devious" and other verbiage? We know the studio did not do anything to be devious and to grand stand with ugly words just enrages the conversation for everyone else. Just share your opinion of like and don't like. Don't accuse anyone of anything or claim to know the intent of the developers heart.

[river ferry]

a step in the right direction

[naive surge]

interesting change of pace#1313871347176177804 message 😄 I agree though lets not claim to know anyone's hearts. lets all stay positive and not attack anyone.

[desert lantern]

Assuming an "underlying intent" (good or bad!) of anything really hurts how you can view something like this holistically 👍

[manic gust]

Addressing FOMO by unlocking the first three days isn't really addressing FOMO. 🤷‍♂️

I don't really how see how it could even be seen as a solution at all, and the fact we pleaded with the devs for literally over 12 hours and that was their choice is a shame to say the least.

[kind wave]

WDYM?
They are unlocking the first 3 days for thoses who just joining now
ANNNNDDD
they are keeping the last current 3 days active

so, first 3 always active
and a rolling 3 days

[noble dock]

The first 3 days addresses the timezone launch issue at the start of the event, which was a huge issue for the Eastern hemisphere

keeping access to the previous 3 days throughout the month addresses FOMO issues of missing a day

[gritty jackal]

Yeah, the changes are really nice

[naive surge]

solving FOMO isn't really possible IMO. This option does ensure that if you have a busy day at work or school you don't automatically lose out. It helps with FOMO.

[manic gust]

So literally nothing was done for the FOMO purchasing of latchkeys?

[nocturne folio]

What?

[noble dock]

hmm...i thought i just explained how the FOMO issues were addressed. perhaps some clarification on what FOMO issue you are referring to will help me answer the question

[river ferry]

You can ask for a refund.

[manic gust]

I was under the impression that the latchkey/FOMO was due to having to buy something to participate and people panic bought the latchstones in a time crunch so they didn't miss out.

[mystic wasp]

they are not going to separate the F2P vs Buy Rewards, if that's your intention dude

[pliant lotus]

It is an improvement, not the 60 days that was described in the event promo video/newsletter, but that was really missing the clarification that 60 days was paid access... but it still creates a letdown from initial expectations.

[noble dock]

FOMO issues were really about missing out on rewards if a day was missed.

if you have purchase regret, that would be something separate and you can request a refund

[mystic wasp]

F2P already gets things in Even Days, just not the "premium" rewards, it's a random Daily gift, the 3 days previous helps with the FOMO

i personally would've gone with 5, but 3 is good

[pliant lotus]

It meets 5%-10% of expectations set before the event depends on how you look at the 3 days and rolling 3 days lol

[gritty jackal]

Yeah, 3 is still pretty good, leaves you with a decent margin if you have 1-2 busy days

Or if you forget or whatever

[lime patrol]

Were the Crest removed from Final rewards? It's really not cool, we already paid for the archpath with that item in mind

[mystic wasp]

maybe a comparison of the previous rewards vs new rewards might be needed @desert lantern

[lime patrol]

Yeah, but there were two of them: Day 25 and Final Reward.

[mystic wasp]

what's the new final reward? i don't have the latchkey

[kind wave]

• Added a final reward for Locked Archpaths
• Improved both the unlocked and locked final rewards

might be comming back

lets see when the patch applies

[desert lantern]

To clairfy, "final reward for Locked Archpaths" means that non-key buyers will get one?

[lime patrol]

I have a key though

[desert lantern]

here's the free one

[kind wave]

funny how final day festive scrolls can only be used on... the final hunt of throne maker, otherwise, wait a year

[willow obsidian]

Do you have a screenshot of the updated paid version, Konq?

[desert lantern]

I believe matuseho's is the updated paid version but not too sure

[river ferry]

[river ferry]

I need Thronemakers anywho lol

[mystic wasp]

Festive scroll 3 vs 2
Galar 3 v 1
QL <- paid only
SGift 25 vs 10
Alfar Trinket 2 vs 1
alfar trinket (2) vs Aaru Anvil (1)
Carving Stone 3 vs 1

Also Paid: Sprites

[desert lantern]

Yeah that's pretty reasonable

[willow obsidian]

I see the updated paid version now, it has more stuff

[noble dock]

both have aaru, fwiw

[river ferry]

This is much better

[desert lantern]

Oh, maybe not updated - someone send ss of updated one?

[twin salmon]

I like how we keep talking about FOMO as though that's the entire crux of the issue,and not that the paid battlepass format literally creates it out of thin air regardless of extra days for completion or anything else

[river ferry]

I think he means over the entire course

[mystic wasp]

in the final reward for paid? or you mean the one that it's in the days ?

[lime patrol]

Is it really reasonable to remove the Crest when it was the biggest reason to pay for the key?

[river ferry]

everyone got angry at it

[desert lantern]

It was most of the negative feedback, but I believe refunds can be requested

[noble dock]

we're considering putting it back into both rewards now

[river ferry]

Can we still get both sets of rewards

[desert lantern]

thoughts on hotswapping these with monumental scrolls?

[desert lantern]

not both sets of final rewards

[river ferry]

oof

sadge

[mystic wasp]

imo, the game can have 1000000 ways of monetizing, while it's not intrusive, affects my already set gameplay negatively, or gives more Power to the people who pay (in the sense of getting for example AL easily) or gives skills/classes w.e

[river ferry]

Can I pick which reward I want if I pay for it

[mystic wasp]

get both >:D

[willow obsidian]

The paid one is better now. It's 5 festive scrolls, 3 galar hammers, 1 questing license, 25 strangers gifts, 2 alfar trinkets, 5 Mnenmoics, 1 Aarul anvil, and 3 carving stones along with the 2 sprites

FWIW I think the change is spot on. Allows everyone to complete it, and offers a bit better rewards at the end for people who want to pay. Seems reasonable.

[desert lantern]

so from free to paid is +3 Festive Scrolls, +2 Galar Hammers, +15 Gifts, +1 Alfar Trinket, +5 Mnemonics, +2 Carving Stones

and of course, +2 sprites

[lime patrol]

I won't refund the pack anyway. But we already expected something. If players think it's not fair and p2w -- perhaps it'll be reasonable to add 1 to the free pool instead of removing it completely

[noble dock]

yup, now that we have a free final, this is an option for us

[magic tulip]

Paying for DMs is still an issue that has not been addressed. The latchstone now gives 15 of them, adding to all the ones that have been sold in packs this year

[mystic wasp]

question, why is DMs acquiring so "scary"? I have like 200 laying in the floor xD

[magic tulip]

Because, with full boosters, they are basically free hundreds of materials

[desert lantern]

Were the rewards for the 25 days updated? Patch notes seem like they do, but don't notice them changed at all (yet?)

Oh, it says final, my bad

[mystic wasp]

only that? ok

[kind wave]

Between them droping in towers, daily reward, daily oracle, and all the guilds that sells them, oh and conquerer guild droping them, yeahhhhhh

[magic tulip]

The people buying them still get all those other DMs as well. They’re literally paying for more mats, which are the main late game limiter for growth

[kind wave]

I would understand the issue if we were... 2 years ago when you barely could earn any

[willow obsidian]

I have 525 DMs, because where I live is like a mobile data deadzone so I have to drive about 5 miles to get to a spot where I can use them. First world problems.

[desert lantern]

I think it's more that they only pay money versus having to do various content to get them

[kind wave]

Technicly galar hammers are worse for that

But yeah, indirect money for mats, you are right on that

[half yew]

P2P in my opinion would be paying money and receiving mats or receiving a god amity or something. You still have to use it and grind it and deal with RNG on it.

[kind wave]

I just think you are over inflating how much impact this quantity has

[twin salmon]

so let me get this straight.

Somebody buying a god tier amity from the shop is bad

Somebody buying over 100 DMs this year, and using those to farm a god tier amity is fine

[magic tulip]

But you can grind through 100 DMs in one hour. That accelerates evolution drastically when compared to people having to first grind them for hours before being able to use them

[half yew]

Who said anything about 100?

[twin salmon]

thats the minimum available from all the packs this year

[half yew]

Ahhh

[mystic wasp]

so what if the guy next door gets 1-2 ALs faster xD?

[naive surge]

but its spread out as well as grinding... they didnt get it in 1 shot? seems pretty similar to the farming method.

[noble dock]

Perhaps a new thread for our individual opinions towards DMs would be best? it might obscure Archpath chatter

[magic tulip]

It’s an issue directly related to Archpaths and the monthly packs, not an issue with DMs themselves

[half yew]

And yes, I agree with this statement.

[marble frost]

It represents a threat to people with high ALs because they farmed the ALs without such an easy method of getting materials

Similar to how monument guild devalues previous gear farming methods with free dice rolls I guess

[noble dock]

sure, but unless we unanimously agree that they are P2W - which i'm not sure we do here, they may not be incredibly helpful to the conversation here

[mystic wasp]

i get what involves getting alot of mats, but at that point is just pure Envy xD and jealousy

[half yew]

No one is climbing the leaderboards with 100 DMs. No one is becoming a powerhouse PvP fighter with 100 DMs.

[naive surge]

im not sure if you are in support of them or not but i do know that wanting someone to suffer because you suffered is not a good look or trend for anything.

[glossy shale]

I will say, selling DMs is the closest Orna gets to having a gacha mechanic.

[marble frost]

I have no stake in the matter. Sell DMs in shop, dont sell em, fine by me. Im not an ascension player

[glossy shale]

DMs are, effectively, loot boxes. At least for any player that doesn't know about influencing them with parties.

[mystic wasp]

seems to be a norm in this community, "if I suffered to get to 250 when the game launched, then new guys should suffer the same 2 years! studio bad for making things easier"

[desert lantern]

One of the strongest gamers at 0AL PvP!

[magic tulip]

What people aren’t accounting for is that these DMs are in addition to all the other farming people do. If you’re grinding 3h/day and your friend is grinding 3h/day but only one of you is buying DMs, one is going to grow much faster than the other

[willow obsidian]

If PvP were some massive aspect of the game, I would agree with it being an issue.. but it's not. The vast majority of the content is PvE, which.. who really cares how fast someone else kills monsters?

[naive surge]

reasonable so you are making an observation. Ok. I can understand their point. but growth of a society or a game is based on making things better and easier for those who come after you. no one can be the strongest/fastest/most experienced forever you will always be passed.

[magic tulip]

I don’t get how the community agrees that power acceleration has been an issue in the past year but then doesn’t see purchasable DMs as an issue. They are literally free mats

[desert lantern]

Lots of grind, effort, and ascension envy simply stems from one tab in the game, the Leaderboard

[mystic wasp]

so WHAT!, congrats your friend for wasting 7.99 x whatever the rate is, you'll catch him or don't if you have more effort, or he lacks more effort, stupid PVP thinking all the time come on!!! not everything has to do with the stupid leaderbords

[glossy shale]

Part of an MMO is comparing yourself to friends (and enemies)

[indigo crow]

The fomo is inherited to the idea of a battle pass system. You can't really address it because it's designed into it.

[marble frost]

It is an issue but you have to accelerate otherwise people playing for 5 years will have a massive gap on people just starting. Its an impossible challenge to catch up.

[manic gust]

I'm going to stop after this;

No, FOMO is directly tied to half of this event is pay walled. Sure there is a f2p content in this event, but that does not address FOMO. When there is a limited time event tied to a purchase for an event, that directly ties to the concept of FOMO. A lot of people are disagreeing with me on what FOMO is, which is fine. Whether it's unintentional or deliberate ignorance is moot, as this is a true example. I don't appreciate the deflective responses and seemingly gas-lighting replies. We offered tons of solutions and begged for a poll, but you went with your own ideas instead.

https://www.mentalhealthgaming.com/pressure-of-fomo/

[magic tulip]

That’s the literal definition of pay2win! People are literally trying to tell me it’s not lol

[naive surge]

Im with Odie on this one.... DMs need to move to another discussion.

in with DM farming/ DM buying the discussion of mats from duplicated refinaries should be included. there is some very very good math out there about "mats from thin air" 😄

[lime patrol]

Do you really see those DMs in packs as a really significant boost for anyone T10+ ?

[willow obsidian]

None of the event is paywalled anymore after the newest patch. Everyone can complete it. The only difference is the paid version gets slightly more rewards.

[manic gust]

So the sprites are earnable?

[naive surge]

I agree. but that sentiment is baked into everything, Monthly events, Time rotational towers, some level of FOMO is required.

[magic tulip]

For sure lol. There’s a reason most AL150+ players have a ton of seers guild levels

[willow obsidian]

Sprites (like they have always been) are part of the paid pack.

[desert lantern]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1314272530902679633

[manic gust]

So it's an event locked behind a paywall?

(Like they always have been? You had to do an event for your previous sprites?)

[indigo crow]

Those other things are free though.

[mystic wasp]

AL 150+ have way higher Dungeon and Fishing levels

even Tower

[twin salmon]

careful, you're arguing with people either past 150 or close

[desert lantern]

I'm confused, are the 12 quests and the sprite what you consider the missed out event?

[willow obsidian]

Sprites aren't an event.. so.. no. They're just part of the final reward for a paid pack. Sprites are part of paid packs - this is nothing new.

[noble dock]

I’m not trying invalidate your definition of the FOMO (I actually asked for it), I’m suggesting that there was a more popular opinion about FOMO, which I believe the changes address

[ashen umbra]

I see a lot of people here saying “it’s not much, so what?” but the quantity of the benefit isn’t the point, the point is that the paid benefit exists in the first place. As soon as you pay money for extra material gain in ANY quantity then that’s creating the issue

[naive surge]

True, The update makes it so there is a full path for both Free and Paid now in the battlepass. there are always items for sale. i dont think that can be used as a firm point anymore but would enjoy exploring the idea.

[desert lantern]

DM discussion is now in another thread, btw

[noble dock]

please use the thread for further DM chatter. thanks folks!

[desert lantern]

While DMs are in Archpaths, the main point is generally "purchasing DMs for money is a point of conflict" which is not an archpath-specific thing

[silent cloud]

I always forget what fomo means

[kind wave]

Fear of Missing Ornates

[desert lantern]

Generally it's a fear of not getting something in time which can encourage someone to engage in content or purchase something

[manic gust]

@desert lantern I initially believed this whole thing was going to be f2p. The latchstone locking half was in my mind ridiculous. Seemingly so since we get a whole version of it now, albeit toned down.

@willow obsidian sprites aren't an event. But they are a reward for the event. They aren't normal sprite packs because you don't have to do the event for them. This isn't rocket science.

@noble dock you chose to address your definition of FOMO and not the fact that this whole Archpath event being set in FOMO with there being a locked version. If someone wants that sprite, they are going to buy the latchstone and participate in the event so they don't miss the sprite. FOMO. The fact there's a 3 day roll in the event makes it FOMO. Archpaths at their core have been geared to monetize through FOMO. Anyone who doesn't see that is choosing not to recognize it for what it is.

[naive surge]

love this translation

[noble dock]

perhaps we can ask the group here? im sure we can find consensus about what the larger piece of FOMO was?

[willow obsidian]

lol. I appreciate your attempt to belittle my intelligence. The end result is the same - you PAY for them. Not rocket science indeed.

[manic gust]

We asked for a poll yesterday.

[indigo crow]

We cannot divorce the concept of a battle pass from NFS battle pass ™️

[kind wave]

AriMorri was my biggest FOMO pain, because I got promoted right before that week and I was too busy. I missed out on not having a life for that week :(

Orna is full of time sensitive events, so my point of FOMO was only the fact that previous days are locked forcing daily gameway to avoid missing out when shit gets busy for someone, or you know, traveling to europe when you are in murica taking your whole day

[noble dock]

hmm...the changes weren't out yet, so i'm not sure a poll yesterday would have been effective

[half yew]

I have logged in and played every single event for the past 1,277 days because of FOMO.

[marble frost]

FOMO is fear of missing out. On anything. But monthly events no matter what have FOMO. I think the community is overemphasizing the missing out part. Not really missing out on much aside from sprites here, which are already pay walled

[half yew]

#3 I have no concern

[marble frost]

I dont think there was much fomo to begin with so voting no here would probably give you the wrong impression

[desert lantern]

I think it's better to see it as "is there enough FOMO with the current iteration of Archpaths to be concerned"

[noble dock]

if you have an understanding about other's opinions towards FOMO, i would say vote that way today's changes address them

[willow obsidian]

I stopped playing the game for about 10 months because I had other things going on - if you have such FOMO that you can't not log in every day that's a you issue you need to address, not a game issue. My opinion, of course.

[half yew]

Oh it's a me issue. 100%

[marble frost]

Mic drop comment. I am not needed here😂

[kind wave]

it is what I love aobut the game, taking 4 month break where I only collect my daily clicks while I recharge my "tryhard" batery"

[desert lantern]

Locking of what is your main concern? Was it the rewards or the ability to complete the quests? (or both) - yesterday you were interested in the "play" aspect which leads me to believe it's the quests - just trying to understand more

[willow obsidian]

lol I wasn't referring to you, I played every day for a year 18 months or so because I enjoyed it.

[formal bay]

I think it needs to clearly show what is free and what is paid. The paid final reward is hidden. Players that aren't in the discord won't see what they're buying the Latchstone for. Usually battle passes have separated tracks for paid free and premium items.

[manic gust]

Yeah. I wanted to be able to do the whole event. Which I know I can now with the new patch, I even suggested initially splitting the whole archpath to a paid and unpaid version. What I am saying now is that the FOMO wasn't addressed, it was just cleaned up to minimize it.

[desert lantern]

I don't think all FOMO will be gone by the inherent nature of Archpaths, with a time limit there will always be FOMO

[willow obsidian]

I appreciate the way the game is set up because I can skip a month or two if the events aren't interesting/useful and jump in for ones that are. Do I "miss out" on things? Sure. Is it an issue? Nope. This is the only mobile game I've quit for an extended period of time and come back to, specifically for those reasons.

[desert lantern]

Likewise with monthly events like Disektor mentioned

[manic gust]

Right, that's what I mentioned to Odie. The way archpaths are designed is directly geared to monetizing FOMO.

[noble dock]

yup, the in-game clarity and messaging is being addressed (per #game-announcements )

i'm moreso looking for feedback about the FOMO sentiment, which to me was the dislike of having to pay when you miss a day, etc

[willow obsidian]

FOMO is going to be different for everyone, I think. I've played games where their monetization strategy is to put a new thing on "Sale" every day and never being able to get it again, or wait for months/years. That is FOMO and is extremely predatory. Orna has never had anything close to that as far as I can tell.

[manic gust]

I supplied a link in my initial comment to explain how it is.

[willow obsidian]

I understand the general idea/psychology behind it - but ultimately it does come down to the individual.

[noble dock]

I think we're all familiar with what FOMO is, what we're trying to disect is whether the problematic piece of FOMO was been addressed. Anything limited time will, of course, come with a little. but that is not a detail that is limited to Archpaths

[manic gust]

Particularly, buy the latchstone to participate for a sprite. Other events have had sprites for participation. I've never felt FOMO with the sprite packs or town packs in the shops. I either get them or I don't.

[glossy shale]

I can personally accept missing out on some minor items without paying if you don't log in for 3 days straight

[willow obsidian]

So if the sprites were guaranteed no matter your participation, you'd be fine with that?

[hasty cypress]

Hey no fomo

It'll be back next year right

[glossy shale]

That is FOMO, 100%. It's incentivizing people who were on breaks or something to pay if they want to fully participate. And I have issues with the UX that both doesn't accurately show that or explain the system, but that is being worked on.

[half yew]

Next year it will be the Arisen Diabolus Archpath.

[timid idol]

if I understand Odie's post, there's now a free final reward. The final reward is only unlocked if you completed all quests so if you miss 3 consecutive days, the final reward become unobtainable.
That's only based on current UI, which may need clarification as this "all quest" was supposed to be exclusive to paid pass which as no time restriction.

[willow obsidian]

Next year it's going to be a sprite of Odie giving everyone the middle finger. I'll pay double for that.

[hasty cypress]

Imagine that eh

Developer wants folks to play everyday lol

[timid idol]

With Sif laughing like Diabolo in the back

[hasty cypress]

How dare he

[timid idol]

https://tenor.com/view/chien-rire-giggle-laugh-gif-16065982

[willow obsidian]

Yes, please!

[marble frost]

Props to Odie and the team for taking this tough feedback pretty well. Always appreciate you guys listening even when the community makes toxic digs and comments. You guys are champs. I could never contain myself like you all

[timid idol]

so of them feedback I swear have been posted by people wearing tin foil hats

[outer pendant]

Now that Archpaths has been fixed, how about we toss in removing refineries to that balance patch?

[willow obsidian]

I wear tin foil because it's fashionable. Keeping alien waves out of my head is just a bonus.

[willow obsidian]

Could limit it to a single mega refinery, similar to how they did with the grand market. One building, upgradeable, and then limited to 1000 (or whatever #) input per day.

[brittle falcon]

Fr fr this is a wild level of grace the studio has

[outer pendant]

I'd be completely down with that, but Odie said there won't be a grand refinery already

[willow obsidian]

Ah, gotcha. I have zero issues with removing them personally, but to be fair it doesn't really impact my gameplay.

[outer pendant]

It doesn't affect me either because I ignore them but it's a landslide of mats later on

[willow obsidian]

Oh yeah, I get that. When you have 100 or more of them going it's crazy.

[river ferry]

I'm getting there

[twin salmon]

I don't know how, but we've missed the entire FOMO problem with the battlepass.

The entire reason this format of purchasable rewards exists is to create a dopamine rush from the free goods, while making sure the premium goods are visible but just ever so slightly out of reach.

You get those free summoning scrolls, summon the raids, get loot, and it feels goooood. Look at those free rewards you got. Maybe you got an ornate and you want another? Or maybe you didn't get the ornate you want, and need more rolls.

In either instance, good news! For just $7.99, more scrolls are right there. Just get this key and boom! More scrolls. More dopamine.

And before somebody decides to argue semantics about the availability of scrolls, the specific item isn't the point. It could be the anvils, the DMs, whatever.

Battlepasses are predatory because they literally create a psychological need from hitting you with free stuff dopamine and teasing the premium goods. The archpath is going to prey on people who don't know better, and its scummy as all hell that it exists in Orna.

If the studio won't get rid of it, fine. But that’s a shit moral compass to claim to have.

anywho, I really am done with this thread now. Best wishes all, sorry to be the ever present scruge

[ashen umbra]

I'll add to this and say that studio good intentions doesn't change the above either. That doesn't suddenly make battle passes not predatory in some manner, large or small, regardless of what fixes are done to make it "better." It is still a battle pass format, and that does not change the inherent FOMO that it creates.
I am sure the NF team are all lovely people and hopefully went into making this with the best of intentions. However, that alone doesn't make a battle pass better

[marble frost]

Man it's gotta be so hard to find ways to monetize this game with a good moral compass and listening to community feedback😅 i for sure empathize with NF here. But agree with said above. Which is why its a really tough pickle to take any sort of stance here.

[ashen umbra]

I don't envy them, that's for sure

[formal bay]

Yeah, they add cool replayable stuff like towers and summoner for free and charge for unnecessary items like sprites and consumables.

[marble frost]

Cosmetics, quality of life, and power. Those are the only 3 areas i can think of to monetize. None of them appeal to me. Now what 😂

[thorn sail]

@cobalt panther are there plans to make a tdlr ORN post?

There are too many messages here (some completely irrelevant) to read

[cobalt panther]

Tlde orn posts are uuuusually to make user feedback easy for NF to read, whereas in this thread NF has been pretty active and responding actively

Most of what is important and has been said from nf has been pinned

[thorn sail]

Ah i see

[cobalt panther]

Though I have been away all of today

So there might be new unpinned stuff

[river ferry]

Just sell orns at that point

[cobalt panther]

I'd recommend doing a good ol from: odie in:discussion-threads on the discord search function if you just want the TL;DR

[river ferry]

They technically already do lol

||You cannot tell me they don't, you can buy pet skins||

[thorn sail]

How they sell orns

[river ferry]

Do you have any phoenix skins?

If you do, trash 'em and watch your orns go up

[river ferry]

Still got the first option but it's much more fair, despite being still annoying

Close this one out too lol

[white abyss]

1.5m Orns per, was it, 8 USD?

Technically true, likely not intended.

[river ferry]

[river ferry]

Definitely not intended, 100% not a good idea

[steady bear]

Scroll can be sold for money in fact xD not intended but perfect to make the gold for portal, for alts xD i love when get 10 scrolls free code time ago jaja

And you can make more than 1M orn using DM, still not the point and i don't think its much in late game, Wee can make 100M orns easy per hour running endless

[kind wave]

No clue if this is wrong, but the extra crest is visible again

and the festive scrolls been changed, which makes sence because festive scrolls on the last day would be kinda useless

[tight palm]

Odie said he had been considering to add an extra crest to paid reward

[glossy shale]

Odie didn't put up a changelog, but I can explain this. It's not "extra", anymore

It has been added to both the free and paid end rewards, and both end rewards cannot be claimed togather

So paid path has 2, and free path has 2

Odie asked the ORN if that would be acceptable, and myself and others agreed that it's fine as long as paying doesn't get you an extra crest. Now everyone has two hours of boosted raid rewards to play with

[kind wave]

yeah that crest is the purest sense of power to gain more, so keeping it free but highly limited, like a big event chain unlock, makes sense

but keeping it equaly fair to unlock

I will close my loop at saying that I wish the battlepass was closer to deep rock galactic completly free and secure what you find more worth as the player chose

could argue with that in mind, the paid version would allow for extra choices or the ability to chose more while free has a total limit of things you can unlock, but at least it would fall in the player's hand to decide what they consider important to go for

throwing ideas around at this point

[desert lantern]

you helped do this! I pointed this out in the ORN based on your comment here

[hasty cypress]

I can state that I'll be avoiding day 1 runeshop purchases moving forward, removing an item that I paid for feels scummy.

Knowing that a small but vocal part the community has the power to change irl money purchases after the fact is not okay by me.

I know it's added to both routes at different points, but why the fuck would I have bought it now, today, if this is the case?

I can get the same end result minus sprites basically 🤣😆 for freeeeeeee

If out of touch or off base, happy to hear why 🙂

[noble dock]

Definitely understand that, and it is not something that we'll see in potential future Archpaths

it was only taken out until the P2W edge was solved

[hasty cypress]

Don't tell Jenn

[noble dock]

i assure you i will not

[hasty cypress]

Lmfao thank you 🙂

Good work on the archpath though, appreciate you and my favourite game

[noble dock]

thanks, favourite player

[devout kestrel]

I will say, the Archpaths remind me of the Login Calendar back when it was a whole month long,
but I especially love the concept of a Quest Calendar with more unique rewards compared to most Town Halls, Inns, or NPCs can provide.
Plus, the ability to mostly plan what I want to do each day, if at all, so that I can work the game into my schedule ahead of time, assuming I like those rewards

[kind wave]

Hey I know I have some impact :) I helped a ton with the conquest guild when I did my big review

[wraith horizon]

My only concern is how long it will take this patch to become available for iPhones. Based on some previous patches, it could take a week or more.

[noble dock]

Today’s patch was a server side patch, not app update. You will get it in negative 6 hours

[wraith horizon]

Did anyone tell you that "you rock" today?

[noble dock]

Not yet, thank you 😊

[wraith horizon]

https://tenor.com/view/whos-awesome-reaction-you-are-you-are-awesome-pointing-gif-15769676

[subtle bear]

Any time someone is angry about the game, it's only because they love it 😉❤️ thanks for your patience

[nocturne sundial]

This would honestly be a great idea. A monthly calendar of quests that have better reward (but no OP) than inns/town halls with a decent reward if you complete all the days. Perhaps a diminishing reward based on how many days completed as to not feel like punishment for missing a few days. Initial dev time may be higher to get it started but if it's something that's randomized at the beginning of the month maybe the monthly upkeep wouldn't be too crazy.

[kind wave]

you don't like the Inn and NPC reward giving you one rock for collecting 7 bear asses?

[nocturne sundial]

I prefer to keep my bear asses

[manic gust]

I have done a lot of complaining lately but I do want to say from the bottom of my heart; This game is truly amazing. I got my best friends and wife into Orna as well. My wife and I recently went to a new small city just to do territories (before CG). This game has encourage us as a family to go to new places, have new experiences, but most importantly adventure together. Thank you. You don't hear it enough. We all truly appreciate this masterpiece of a game.

[quartz lance]

Completed exploration dungeons this morning but the archpath does not show the quest has been completed.

[silent cloud]

It's one of the days that need a latchstone to unlock

You got a random reward from daily runeshop instead

[nocturne sundial]

The quests/rewards that are locked should be hidden if you don't have the key

[quartz lance]

Do we have to buy a stone every other day? Not just once for the month?

[silent cloud]

It's one for all month

[quartz lance]

Bought it days ago

[white abyss]

It was a goblin fort or mystic cave? Did you also unlock the archpath with the key you bought?

-# I don't get why we'd make someone scroll down to hit another button.

[timid idol]

Didn't read for a while. I've 2 questions.

• What's the FOMO modification for the server patch ?
• Do you need to complete every free quests to unlock the free final reward ?

[noble dock]

The FOMO pieces addressed in the patch are:

Eastern hemisphere ending up with less time to do day 1 due to local timezones (as the Archpaths start with event launches, 12pm EST). Now the launch day is always available

Having access to the previous 3 days means it's okay to miss a day on the free track, you've got a few days to do each quest

For the final reward, all blocks in the trial will need to be complete

[white abyss]

You've reduced fomo by granting a free reward to folks that claimed the reward 25 days in a row?

[noble dock]

The final reward for the free track was added as players were expecting it - please note that this was the answer to this persons second question. you may be mixing up the two questions/answers

[hardy oriole]

Imagine gramgram giving you an advent calender and then telling you that you need to pay for half the chocolates

[noble dock]

well, you've still got the same amount of chocolates. but there may be some differing flavours

[timid idol]

So if I understand correctly, the final reward is the big one and to get it you have to do your quests basically every day. That's massive FOMO.

Usually what daily calendar like this do is allow you to unlock 1 more quest every day you connect, with much less calendar quests than available days. That way people do it at there own pace.

With your system, if you miss day 1 for some reason (and reasons that keep you away from games for 3 days exist), then your pass is basically screwed (and by your I mean the player pass, not your as you developed it).

My internet trying to post a message challenge : level impossible

[noble dock]

As far as the free track goes, no, the final reward is not a big thing. you can see it in-game, but picking and choosing some rewards from throughout the month will likely be more fruitful. it was added by player request, and was not considered a big FOMO piece for free track

in terms of Day 1 missing: please re-read my response. Day 1 cannot be missed

[timid idol]

I've to disagree here. Monumental scrolls, anvil, crest are by far the most interesting items and they're the final reward.

[noble dock]

then we can consider reducing it potential future archpaths if it is bad FOMO generating for some. a survey should help get info about how most players feel about it

[noble dock]

weird timing

[white abyss]

Where's my tinfoil hat

-# it's right at the 24 hour mark, so I say legit coincidence lol.

[noble dock]

yeah, that was a bit eerie

[river ferry]

That is very even

[naive surge]

I know that there is FOMO no matter what... the idea of events generates FOMO everything about a game is fomo, Kill this raid or you wont get an item, get exp or you wont level up. Trying to eliminate all of it leads to an incredibly boring situation. that being said I don't think applying a reward for completing something increases FOMO. Reward for task completed is standard in every aspect of life (pay, bonuses, school, every game ever created). I would hate to see the paid items removed from the end of month reward for FREE players. based on a complaint of FOMO. I'm a casual player, I cant expect to get everything that the players who spend 8-36 hours a day playing manage to acquire. I also know that removing every aspect of the game that you can "miss out on" is unreasonable. If you want something you generally have to try for it. if something bad happens and you miss a reward its not the game's fault. next month you will get it. in a cyclical situation like the events in orna you might have to wait 6months or a year but it will come around again.

updated to indicate that its the free track discussed above.

[nocturne sundial]

Only thing I can think is a diminishing final reward based on days completed instead of being completely locked out. Hypothetically if the final reward had 4 Anvils it could be 4 Anvils for all days complete, 3 if you missed up to 5, 2 if you missed up to 10, 1 if you missed up to 15, etc. Just a random example. Players who are unable to complete every day are still rewarded instead of feeling punished so heavily, and the players who complete all days feel rewarded for that.

[naive surge]

thats a decent plan. What about items where putting more than 1 in the monthly path would be "excessive"?

only alteration i would make in order to make the coding easier is instead of doing the reward at the end make it a claim aspect. (upon completing your 5th day you can claim extra reward 1, upon 15th, claim reward 2. This would make the code simpler and put the reward redemption in players hands instead of studio work.

(this would of course be for future. its not really possible (I would think) to alter the current event in this manner.)

[indigo crow]

Yeah, and that's the poll only after they got a round of feedback and changed a bunch of stuff. I feel like the real question should be if players want this kind of battle pass system in the first place, not have we made it less bad so that you can stomach it.

[naive surge]

That's a tough sell to me. you don't have to do anything with the battle pass. no rewards (I am aware of) were removed from the normal event. I suppose I could see an argument that Passes are taking time away from developing a "new" thing that is more popular but even then no way to know if the new thing would be appreciated either.

[noble dock]

It's important to note that this was December's allocated event development time, as there is no real December event. thus, no time from regular scheduled new game content was taken away

[noble dock]

For sure, this is why I've confirmed we'll run an in-game survey at the end of the event. that will get the best representation of whole playerbase opinion

[naive surge]

good to know and further supports that this is an extra part of the game. 😄

[noble dock]

yup

[ashen umbra]

I always hold caution to the argument of "you don't have to participate in X" or "just don't buy Y" because it doesn't make the inherent issues regarding those systems go away, and the problems for those that do are still present

[naive surge]

rephrase.

I agree, treating things as binary (either do or dont) is a poor way to go through life. My intent with the statement was to say that this is extra. We had nothing now we have something. no one lost anything with the addition of this system so while I may not be 100% happy with the system I also want to try and see it in a positive light. I would only want to see the "pass" system removed if there was no way to salvage(appease most) with it.

[ashen umbra]

I do understand the feeling. But there are those like me that do not find battle passes positive and/or salvageable simply due to what they tend to represent and create, and that's outside of studio intention. For me, having nothing (no Archpath in a battle pass format) would have been better than having it. It's a hard stance to take, one that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for suggested improvements, and I recognize that. If it is to stay longer term, then at the very least it should be improved, yes.
Funny enough, I am basically part of the binary you mentioned. But for me (and folk like Bwubble) it is a moral issue

[naive surge]

yeah. i'm seeing quite a few "slippery slope" discussions that are often times based on moral issues. I don't disagree that it is a slippery slope (look at all the rock star games memos about hourly subscription fees for a crazy version of pay2play, fomo, greed). I believe and have faith that as a smaller design studio NF will be able to step on the slope without sliding into garbage due to the lack profit driving forces. How far they are allowed to step down the slope is up to every person's personal comfort level. The fact that they are altering the path based on our concerns(even if we don't get everything we want) and moving some paid only items to free slots leads me to believe that this is a lateral movement, not a movement towards the bottom of the hill.

[slate oracle]

Did the sprites reward get removed from the battle pass?

[naive surge]

they are in the paid version only I believe.

[slate oracle]

That’s dead. U can only see them once you’ve paid for it too? I think

[naive surge]

Um. I know someone put a breakdown of the rewards for both tracs in here somewhere but I dont have it handy.

#1313871347176177804 message and the one after it are the rewards for both paths.

I have not kept up on announcements. I believe there is suppose to be a announcement with more information about the paths and there might be a change to the UI still incoming.

[slate oracle]

Yh so battlepass. The sprites and the jewel of destruction should be taken out. Nothing should be exclusive to this battlepass

[ashen umbra]

To reinforce things Bwubble pointed out earlier on... those of us who believe in the slippery slope see that it had already begun a while ago, and battle passes are just the latest of several steps. Whether or not the studio wishes to see that for what it is based purely on their personal beliefs of why they made the choices they did is up to them

[noble dock]

the jewel is not paid for as-is.

i don't think there has ever been issue with paid cosmestics, so i would say the sprites can stay where they are

[slate oracle]

Oh yh jewel free. But should be available as a drop from something. For me, the main 2 blows is its a battle pass and forcing u to buy it in the menu. Looks rough and forceful especially how its highlighted.

[noble dock]

i would disagree on drop. the stats are based around it not having quality, so an ornate version would be pretty busted.

as a quest reward, it feels right

[slate oracle]

Quest reward or battle pass reward? Quest reward from an npc for the jewel would be class then get it as eod

[noble dock]

the archpath is a series of quests, the jewel is the reward of one of them

[still plume]

Um, so we get only 1 jewel of destruction, How do we get more??

[slate oracle]

U cant

[naive surge]

For now anyways. could be a monthly item we have no way of knowing. 😄

[still plume]

Really? We get only one and that's it?

[thorn sail]

are you all so desperate for a few more stats on a 2% ward jewel 😂

[still plume]

Yes an ornate has 4% ward

[noble dock]

if an ornate existed 🙂

[timid idol]

TBH, the jewel isn't that good. At least in current sandbox it doesn't really have a place.

[kind wave]

it is great for othersoul

[timid idol]

Sure it has some usage but it's not top tier or game breaking.

[kind wave]

it is t3 for a reason
and it would be completly busted as an t3 ornate

[naive surge]

Sorry that my response took so long. Got in a conference call at work.

I understand what you are saying and I can see a few of the steps down the slope you are talking about as negative things. To me being a few steps down the slope is not a huge deal. I felt FOMO and Pressure to purchase in this event/pass. I posted a suggestion that I was worried about the pressure I felt and the direction it implied for the game. Since I posted that there has been a huge amount of effort and discussion put in on everyone's part. the results of these changes remove the  pressure to purchase that I felt. I am overall appeased, not completely placated but happy enough. Change is constant. new charges, new systems, new classes are all going to happen. Working towards the stop of progress is not a solution. instead of blocking the flow of change lets try to direct it.
  The baseline pass was set at the initial release. So far we have gotten the jewel moved to free (removes some of the pay to win), Day 1 always active (no living in a bad place FOMO reduction), a full free path and a full paid path so both sides can "get to 100%" of their chosen path, a rotating 3 days to complete each challenge further reducing FOMO, a change to the scrolls so that if you complete after the event the loot is still usable(reduced FOMO), Aru anvil moved to free reward... that's a lot of wins and changes for the Reduced FOMO and the anti-Pay camps. 
On top of the changes we have secured through constructive conversation and suggestions with NF. The baseline pass(that NF sent blind) made it so that a few Paid only items were available for free to play players. That's a step up the slope in my mind. 🙂  

Without rejecting the idea of a pass completely, what additions or changes would you like to see? I would love to discuss them with you. 😄

[timid idol]

Still, othersouls are a minuscule part of the game, and I don't understand why some people really focus on those when it have really minimal impact on the game.

[naive surge]

(to add to my above but got another work call.... ) The main two items I see the discussion turn to every time are the DMs in paid content (personally 5-10 a month seems fine to me, but ~50 is a bit much this month), And the FOMO from a pass in general. IMO a good idea to furter alleviate FOMO was suggested this morning. rewards broken down into "bonus prize pools" (complete 5 get 33% of main reward, 10 gets 66%, whole thing gets the final items). I dont like to see rewards weighted evenly like this but other do.

**I would like to apologize, that first paragraph could be read as me taking some kind of credit. no such thing was intended. I was trying to show that i also had a problem and felt it should be voiced.

[ashen umbra]

To me being a few steps down the slope is not a huge deal.

I really wish I could agree with you that some steps are not that bad. But like any slope, it's one step, then "it's not that bad"... and then another step, "it's not that bad"... a small fix is made but the system remains, "it's not as bad as it was", and again and again and again until you're halfway down the slope, and things are that bad, but there's juuuust enough people that got comfortable with it over a gradual period of time to make dissenters the minority.
We can keep being told by the people (here or otherwise) that we're exaggerating, that our fears are unfounded, that it's not a big deal. But normalization like that is a large reason why worse game companies get away with the shit that they do, to the point we have to get legislators involved to keep them in check... and even then they make efforts skirt around it or push the boundary on what else they can get away with, and the slow tip-toeing down the slope begins anew. "It's just a small thing, it's not that bad."
Edit: I am not saying that's NF's MO, I am just saying that's where the gaming industry has gotten.

Without rejecting the idea of a pass completely, what additions or changes would you like to see? I would love to discuss them with you.

I wish I could. But it is very hard to do so because of my feelings on the matter. I'm sure I could come up with ideas, but, as said here and in the Diluted Mnemonic topic thread... I just don't find these things something worth fixing through changes and I feel affirmed in that throughout the course of this whole matter

I will say, however, that the steps NF have taken are at least improvements. They are indeed positive changes. I just won't ever be able to hit state of being content with it no matter what they do with the battle pass format

[naive surge]

disclaimer: Im going to break this down into different messages, west cost people just got back from their 9AM to 1 AM lunch break so its time to get everything done before end of week. 😄

i would never say your fears are unfounded. your feelings are valid.

[ashen umbra]

No worries XD We both have a lot to say

[naive surge]

I also wont say you are exaggerating because you are correct about the games industry as a whole. Its gotten to be so sickening I dont even buy the franchises that I litterally love and grew up with.

[noble dock]

My problem with the slippery argument is that we've been having it since 2018 with purchasable shrines. When is the slope actually going to be slippery? is 6 years not enough time to demonstrate intention?

I've shared the true intentions with Archtrials - I think a few folk have convinced themselves that some other intentions/narratives are at play here, and have continued on with those notions

We get event stuff out fast and we fix it with feedback. That's how we've approached nearly every event, and has been something with community has enjoyed just as much as lamented

We're not interested in P2W, as the adjustments thus far should show. We're not interested in artificially creating FOMO. We're trying to make things more accessible and enjoyable for the month

[naive surge]

I will say that NF has not given me any impression of going in those directions.

[ashen umbra]

Frick hit enter too soon. Fingers behave this is important

[naive surge]

😄

(Please take this the right way 😄 ) The fact that you added the edit about "NF MO" and your desire to discuss in a positive light tells me that you know you are Looking at NFs actions based on experience with other gaming companies. 🙂 Not saying its a bad thing to learn from getting screwed over but being aware and not trying to do better and give people/groups a chance is, for lack of a better word, bad. i have faith. you can discuss and come up with new ideas. 🙂

(inflammatory word removed)

[noble dock]

Signing off now, sorry. Have a great weekend 🙂

[naive surge]

you too dude. 🙂

[south iron]

Case in point on getting events out fast: the tragic release of rift breaks. It convinced me that Odie doesn't think stuff out too hard beforehand (sorry Odie) but to give credit where it is due they were iterated on fairly quickly into something that worked well enough.

[icy creek]

Thanks for the dialogue Odie. I'm excited to see what future archpaths have in store.

[ashen umbra]

When is the slope actually going to be slippery?

It's been pointed out many times by several people. You know the reasons why that argument exists, as I've said myself in the post you're replying to. The monetization scheme of the game is dramatically different than it was 6 years ago. By necessity, yes. But different nonetheless, and we have the Diluted Mnemonic discussion for exactly one of those reasons.

is 6 years not enough time to demonstrate intention?

I have been fairly clear in my opinions surrounding this discussion that I am sure your intentions are not for the sole purpose of draining money out of your player base. I believe you. But I have also made it clear that personal intention does not disregard the base facts of what a system built around FOMO (a battle pass) can create. That is inherent by design, especially if there is a paid component to it. However you dress it up and fix it does not remove that aspect. It's baked into the design.

I've shared the true intentions with Archtrials - I think a few folk have convinced themselves that some other intentions/narratives are at play here, and have continued on with those notions.

Can you blame them given the way battle passes are used elsewhere? Some companies use them in the most abhorrent ways they can get away with. Seeing one in Orna is seen as a massive red flag for that reason.

We're not interested in P2W, as the adjustments thus far should show. We're not interested in artificially creating FOMO. We're trying to make things more accessible and enjoyable for the month.

Just as you've asked users here to define FOMO and where they see the limits, the question of what is considered P2W by the team gets posed in return. Some see raid reward boosters and diluted mnemonics you pay for as P2W. I'd agree with them.
The changes you have made are positive, I acknowledge that. My feelings are sadly locked in towards battle passes in general, it's not something you can avoid through updates

[south iron]

It's quite rare for devs to be this visible and to incorporate feedback as fast as NF.

[ashen umbra]

I have to add those clarifiers because if I don't then I am at risk of someone else taking my words in a way I did not intend. Tone and intent with words through text is notoriously hard to get right. I am making sure that my bases are covered so people know exactly how I feel and where I stand

[naive surge]

very true. its nice.

[naive surge]

agree. I do those sorts of clarifications as well.

[noble dock]

Heh, i enjoyed them at release 🙂

but i'm in an area where they just worked

[naive surge]

confirmation bias cough

😄

[south iron]

I still think this whole situation is just a clumsy release combined with people getting bitten by fomo and bullshit in other games. Easy to be weary of anything changing when you put it alongside... Literally any mobile game these days.

[naive surge]

I would say any game. my family and friend group just all jumped to New world aeternum since our pc ppl and console people can play together. paid battle pass complete with max level items baked right in LMAO after i paid the ****s 70$ for the game.

[ashen umbra]

Exactly my argument I've mentioned elsewhere (which is probably buried by now). To me, battle passes are the first real step to something that makes Orna feel like just... everything else, personal good intentions from the team or not, and now I fear that it's only going to go downhill from here. Hell, some would argue it already has been

[south iron]

I have somehow avoided quite a few of the "mobile-ified" PC games. Probably because I waste too much time on Orna

[ashen umbra]

Same, honestly

[naive surge]

blep. pause. your response to Odie and that last one to drel target the concept of a "battlepass" as (words failing me) horrible. You have phrased your argument in such a way that I want to ask "who hurt you" (big teasing here).

If we take a step back from battle passes and look at the login rewards. In your mind/opinion, What makes the login reward different than a 10 day battle pass? If I log in every day i get 1 major reward every 10 days. If you don't and instead log in every 3 days I get 3x the rewards compared to you. I know they are different i just want to see what you think if we change the lense a bit. 🙂 maybe we can figure out what needs to change.

[ashen umbra]

You have phrased your argument in such a way that I want to ask "who hurt you" (big teasing here).

Not teasing, but, the game industry as a whole did. Watching it become what it has hurt me, just like it hurts so many other people, when it doesn't have to be this way. But it is, because of complacency and unchecked corporate greed.

In your mind/opinion, What makes the login reward different than a 10 day battle pass? If I log in every day i get 1 major reward every 10 days. If you don't and instead log in every 3 days I get 3x the rewards compared to you. I know they are different i just want to see what you think if we change the lense a bit.

I'm not a fan of those either for a lot of the same reasons. I wasn't happy when I saw them get added. I know why they get added to games. They exist in order to get people to play every day, even if it's just for 5 minutes, or miss out on stuff

I'm sure anyone could put the spin of "Oh they're just giving loyal players free stuff :3" but that's the incentive to help make people open your game every day

Game devs feel they have to waggle free stuff in front of people just to encourage them to engage with their game every day. It's not usually out of the goodness of their hearts

[naive surge]

ok. I feel much the same about them. very similar but you are "OK" with them. Is it only because you can buy the "loyal players get free stuff" ?

[ashen umbra]

I'm not really ok with them. They've certainly benefitted me, I've gotten several 195-200 spec Ornates from it. But I'd rather they weren't there simply because I know why they get added to some games

[fallen moss]

Changing those from 1 month to 1 week was a huge fomo reduction imo

[ashen umbra]

But it does not remove the FOMO

[fallen moss]

God i hate the term fomo... haha even typing it bothers me

[fallen moss]

Life is fomo... how can you expect to not see it everywhere?

[naive surge]

😄 this is litterally the root of everything. 😄 nothing is done "out of the goodness of someone's heart".... check out some of the ethics philosophers you will feel really terrible about people and things until you "accept" it 😄

[naive surge]

also true, thats the push to get to "whats acceptable" and making people feel "ok" rather than removing it.

if the game had no FOMO the diehard players would farm out everything in a month and move on.

drip feeding and fomo keeps the dreams alive. gives people somethign to chase.

[fallen moss]

Fomo can never be fully removed

Also the last time I'm typing it 😂

[ashen umbra]

Hah, yeah, same, it's a bleh word. But this is what I mean with stuff I've said previously over the course of the past day or two. Making little changes to a system with FOMO inherently baked in does not negate the issue with the system. It makes it better, but all it does is push it within tolerances of enough people for the team to go "Ok it's good enough we can leave it like this." That's the normalization I mentioned earlier. Add in something people don't like, fix it until the dissenters are the minority, and then walk away from it. But now you've taken that one step down that slope, you just normalized it to enough people that they accept it.
That's why I feel Odie is being a little disingenuous when he keeps disregarding the slippery slope. This has been noted to him countless times now

[ashen umbra]

Oh, believe me, I am aware XD But for the sake of my mental health I choose not to, ahahah

[fallen moss]

I normalized something that's extremely apparent in life long before I was around?

[ashen umbra]

On that note, I'm also not ok with the free daily item being stuck in the Runeshop. That is just flat out blatant "look at our paid stuff EVERY day! Isn't it nice looking? Do you waaaant it?" and I'm not going to sit and let someone try and convince me that wasn't wholly intentional for that purpose

[naive surge]

ahh, I am in the acceptance stage LMAO.

[devout kestrel]

Sorry, I'm kinda struggling here with figuring out the boundary here, genuinely.
Wouldn't this also include stuff like, the Oracle Temple/Conq Guild's daily login thing, where if you miss a day, you just don't get em?
Does any time restricted task/activity/reward/etc. count? If not, can you provide an example and why?
I promise I'm not being mean, I'm just stupid and don't understand well enough.

[naive surge]

not stupid. we were discussing that exact thing a bit earlier.

[ashen umbra]

It's a fair question, no worries! Especially since now that one aspect of "is this ok" has been covered but not others.
Yes, I am in general not a fan of daily login/access stuff as a whole

[naive surge]

i laughed about that exact thing when it moved.

[ashen umbra]

For a lot of the reasons stated previously

And that's also one of the reasons why I said I haven't been a fan of Orna's direction for a while now. It's slowly been drip feeding stuff I don't find acceptable into it, stuff the typical mobile game does to get people to keep playing. And they keep saying they do it out of good intentions, but I keep repeating that good intentions do not remove the inherent flaws it creates.
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where we're down the line by 1-2 years. Imagine Orna now has battle passes galore, 6+ monthly packs with gameplay and raid reward boosting items in each, $50 sprite packs and all else. At that point the slope has been stepped down into many times. Is us hearing "we added it with the best of intentions because we're good people and wish to grow" going to be enough for people to keep accepting that? To keep letting it be added in? Is that enough justification for any of it that it makes it all ok?

And are we going to keep hearing "what slippery slope?" by then as well?

[twin salmon]

(I blame work for being dull and giving me time to read this thread, and my own lack of self control to not just stay away)

To answer this question.

The oracle temple isn't nestled in a paid shop.
The oracle temple doesn't give me a Diluted Mnemonic and then offer me another one for $7.99

/back to the lurking

[naive surge]

everyone has their lines in the sand... That being said, you have admitted that you know enough about ethics to understand that nothing is "from the goodness of someone's heart", you know enough about bias and stereotyping to know you are looking at it through the lense of other bad gaming companies, and you understand that FOMO is a fact of all life. with those three things I know you are intelegent, not living in fantasy land, and mature enough to compromise. 😄 so lets wheel and deal, what else can be done to help the situation? 😄 we might find some new sand to get a new line. 😄

[ashen umbra]

Fair!

Still mixed on it for personal reasons regarding daily login-style stuff, but, totally fair

(And totally guilty about not being able to walk away XD)

[naive surge]

same...

Bwubble, you target DM every time. 😄 dependable. i like it.

[indigo crow]

The point of the slope is to exhaust you so you don't fight it any more. You can't come to bat against battle passes with the same energy every time and eventually you don't speak up at all.

[ashen umbra]

Miiiild patronizing tone aside (XD Likely not intentional, don't worry), fair enough, I can try and at least come up with something. Just give me a hot minute to try and come up with what that something is

Unless saying "no paid pass" is good enough?

[naive surge]

sorry for the patronizing tone. was suppose to be funny and up beat. I dont like discussions where people feel like they are being "worn down" genuine desire to discuss is required otherwise points become flat and I dont learn things. 😄 Im not discussing from the goodness of my heart either.

[naive surge]

"No paid pass" isn't a bad argument or not allowed. we could discuss that one. 😄

[ashen umbra]

Then I'll go with that. To elaborate on my feelings regarding it, I don't like battle passes partially because they give you a prize pool for free users (that are usually not as good as the paid one) and let you look at what the paid path gets and say "You coooouuuld get these things for $7.99 you knooowww~" If a pass had to exist, then make it free, and make the only loss that comes from not getting what you can from it it be your lack of participation

Let the timing window to get everything from it be reasonably long as well, not small to the point that the deadline is within only a couple of days and if you miss a few days then you're screwed

If your goal is to give the player the chance to benefit from a system then let them benefit it. If your goal is to make them come back every day then you know exactly why Archpath was designed like it was

[naive surge]

good positions. pretty much my identical issues with battle passes and login rewards. (probably everyone's position)

[indigo crow]

Not only do the free people not get the same reward, could be better or wost thats whatever, they don't get to do the little job. Doing the little job is a part of the appeal that only 8 dollars can buy.

[ashen umbra]

Exactly

[indigo crow]

You think I'd do a goblin fort without a little job telling me to? No.

[naive surge]

🙂 goblin forts are a great fast way to roll for EOD rewards. thats why I do them

[indigo crow]

Do you break the little blocks and get the stuff?

I mean I do one if I have the time but if I'm bringing home things to play it's regular dungeons or towers mostly. Can't hang on to a goblin fort.

[fallen moss]

I like dds 😅

[still plume]

You monster

[naive surge]

LMAO. sorry boss called. ..... let me read

[naive surge]

all of your messages.

• I have never seen a battle pass where free version "doesnt get to do the little job" can you elaborate on that?
• I dont break blocks if i am after fast EOD rewards. but I do if i want the guild currency for mats.
• I dont bring them home either.

[naive surge]

alright Zap 😄 😄 LMAO

[indigo crow]

The free version of THIS battle pass doesn't give player the option to do the quest connected to the day. (Odd days, everyone can do the even days)

[naive surge]

Let me bring 1 Good thing that battlepasses have created into the discussion. Its not always the same in every game BUT most battle passes have an item, or cosmetic that can only be acquired by playing the pass(MAJOR FOMO for me a collector person) (often times you can claim it at any time during the pass(less FOMO)) and normally in the free pass. but they become badges of "I was here for this" I like those from battlepasses. (yes a badge saying 5 years is nice but it isnt proof you were playing. 😄 ) I was sad something like this was missing from this pass.

[indigo crow]

Also I break all the little things, IDK why I just always have. I hate the floors where you have to turn on the little lights to go down, I have a hard time seeing them.

[naive surge]

Wait... I thought that the update put everyone able to do everyday? or is it just that you get to open a reward that day not complete the task?

[naive surge]

me too. tablet helps alot. 😄

[indigo crow]

You just hit a button that says claim reward, you do not have the option to do the objective connected to it.

[naive surge]

Interesting. Hmm.. so you get a task and a given reward on even days and on odd days you open a box and get a random roll?

[ashen umbra]

Guh, I mentioned earlier about the disingenuous feeling from Odie thing and now I need to get the thought out of my head cause it's driving my crazy (I'm making a callout post on my Twitter Dot Com stand back XD)

Several times now the slippery slope argument has been brought up, and each time it keeps getting dismissed as nothing, just unwarranted fears about something Odie feels has not come true. And yet, anyone who has been paying attention sees it. Daily login bonuses and rewards, free daily items being tucked away in the shiny Runeshop to put eyes on the new stuff you can buy, Diluted Mnemonics being included in packs (which are a paid source of materials and orns), multiple packs with those a month, $30 sprite skins, new battle passes of which a paid for raid reward booster incentive (that was only brought to the free side due to backlash) being added...

And yet, each time the slope is brought up, it's dismissed. "We haven't gone down the slope, how many times do we need to say it to convince you that we haven't, and we add these things with good intentions?" cause at this point one has to question what definition of the slippery slope is being used on Odie's/NF's end, and if that's what they're holding true to each time we get told that we're wrong. I'd like to know how and why those definitions on each side differ if they are different

[indigo crow]

Yeah.

[naive surge]

Interesting. add it to the notes. no free items on free pass. 😄 Tasks required for everything. 🙂

[indigo crow]

As much as I want to believe that this is all in good faith I do find that troubling. I said before but I feel like Bwubble laid out a good argument for us already being well down the slope and there hasn't really been any attempt to address it. I also feel like the poll being pushed to the end of the event isn't exactly honest, distancing it as much as possible from the shit show release and hidden under the little changes they've made already. I think it should be judged within the context of it's release, they were okay putting it out that way but not okay with it being judged that way? Also I think most people know this kind of thing is tiring to discuss, it's really exhausting and putting it at the end of the month ensures that people are already fatigued about it before getting the chance to vote.

[naive surge]

I purchased pass after the changes were made yesterday. (prior i had little intention of engaging the latch) so I didnt know that. I would have the same complaint in free pass. I like little tasks to get stuff. (new world has these cards that make me go a bit silly, optimized the farm and rolls out... finished the entire battle pass in under a week 😦 big sad now new pass doesn't happen for 45 days.

Pause... How do you quote excerpts I need to address parts. 😄

[ashen umbra]

Copy the text you wish to reply to and put a > in front of the text at the very start.

Space it out like this for separation

[naive surge]

TY.

[ashen umbra]

"> Test" without the quotations is what that will look like

[naive surge]

yep. 😄

[ashen umbra]

I also feel like the poll being pushed to the end of the event isn't exactly honest, distancing it as much as possible from the shit show release and hidden under the little changes they've made already. I think it should be judged within the context of it's release, they were okay putting it out that way but not okay with it being judged that way?

That really bugs me, it's like they're afraid to get a truly honest opinion of it as it is and don't want to see what the community thinks as it stands now and would rather fix it a little and see if it's good enough to keep (see my Normalization comments). If this were an update with no paid content attached like a balance change I'd be surprised if a very visible poll wasn't out within the first day.

I said before but I feel like Bwubble laid out a good argument for us already being well down the slope and there hasn't really been any attempt to address it.

And whatever attempts there are to address it feel like borderline gaslighting. "How do you keep feeling like a slippery slope exists by now after 6 years?" is what it sounded like when Odie said 'My problem with the slippery argument is that we've been having it since 2018 with purchasable shrines. When is the slope actually going to be slippery? is 6 years not enough time to demonstrate intention?' ... while not addressing the many, MANY examples of such that have been put forward to him, especially in the past year when it felt like this stuff started ramping up. I've said it dozens of times. Good intentions by the team do not magically make these pitfalls fine and problem free. That part is being ignored.

Odie is a smart person. He's not out of touch with this, and I think more people need to remember that. He knows he has a community at his finger tips, and yet the time he launches a paid battle pass just in time for the holidays was when he felt was a good time to "take a chance and not let early negative feedback push back a new addition"?

[naive surge]

I need to go back and re-read Bwubble's post to be sure but from what I remember it targets pretty heavily on the DMs which got their entirely own discussion channel. If the DM portion is removed since its being tackled separate to this discussion I didn't feel there was much oomph left in his points after the changes to the pass, but I will re-read.

I also feel like the poll being pushed to the end of the event isn't exactly honest, distancing it as much as possible from the shit show release and hidden under the little changes they've made already.
This sounds more like you didn't like the launch than that you don't like the pass itself or the idea of a pass. I didn't like the launch either so I understand your feelings. I feel that the idea is to pull the poll away from the time when people are upset and give them some time to engage with the system before they judge it.

they were okay putting it out that way but not okay with it being judged that way
I have been around games, software, and hardware development a long time. I have never seen a clean launch. even when the project has a multi-billion dollar budget. i would say take every launch with a grain of salt and if you have the power(like we do here) let the developers and engineers know what you think.

[brittle falcon]

When does this thread get renamed into NFS conspiracy theories? I feel like that is where we are going and less so staying on the arch path discussion

[naive surge]

Lets pull back a second those last few are getting a bit "attack-y" for me. 🙂

[ashen umbra]

Yeah, sorry, I think I'm getting a bit pissed off. My bad

Just more than a little fed up with this. I know I'm not the only one

[naive surge]

Its ok, reel it in a bit and move back to topic. If you are tired/fed up you dont have to continue. dont want to contribute to frustration. 🙂 just discuss how to improve things.

[ashen umbra]

Mmh...

[naive surge]

(Im a bit of a shut in, this is literally the most human interaction I have had in months. 😄 )

[indigo crow]

Odie is a smart person. He's not out of touch with this, and I think more people need to remember that. He knows he has a community at his finger tips, and yet the time he launches a paid battle pass just in time for the holidays was when he felt was a good time to "take a chance and not let early negative feedback push back a new addition"?

Yeah, it's indistinguishable from what you would expect of someone trying to avoid the harshest criticism. Orna will likely be the furthest thing form many people's minds on those days. Look at how much slower this thread is in just a day, this kind of thing doesn't have a long shelf life in people's minds and it would be better if you were interested in the most feed back to do it sooner than later.

[ashen umbra]

0x8f said it pretty well before they left, and this is probably why I'm as fed up as I am.
"If I'm burning my hand in the hot water for 5, 6, 7 times, I can absolutely assume that it won't cool down for the 8, 9, 10 time"
... but we've also got someone saying "you're not burning your hand" at the same time when very clearly my hand is burning. How many times can we post examples of these little steps of the slope being taken and normalized while hearing "it's not happening" before it hits a breaking point?
While I can't quantify it, I sure as hell can say this time was enough for some people

Anyways, yeah, off topic. Think I need to stop

[indigo crow]

Bwubble's orginal post doesn't even mentioned the DMs if I remember right. It's mostly what I'm referring to when I mention him and what I would have liked to seen pinned for easier access but Konq refused because it was "opinionated" as if this whole discussion isn't based on opinions.

They launch should be part of the discussion, I don't like the battle pass aspect either but ignoring the launch doesn't give you the full picture. Just because lots of devs do poor releases isn't a reason to ignore it.

[fallen moss]

Tbf all these little steps are what made it possible for orna to become a full time gig and not a side project. There's also that side of the argument. Alot of the things said in here sound like the game shouldn't make any money and nf should do it all for free. 100% my opinion

Several people typing.... lols I had considered not posting that

[indigo crow]

Not true at all, many of us talked about how we bought sprite packs and game packs before. The problem is this style of battle pass monetization.

[fallen moss]

30$ sprites were mentioned not long ago as one of those steps 🤷

[ashen umbra]

You're right. And I have said at different points in the past that I agree they deserve more money to do what they want to do. I just haven't been able to approve of the methods used, not just this most recent one, and it's even more frustrating with the ways those who brought up some of their concerns were brushed off

[fallen moss]

What else can possibly be monetized?

[ashen umbra]

That's the bugger of an issue, isn't it?

[naive surge]

😄 its not an invalid opinion of the discussion. that's part of the discussion when working towards a better option.

[fallen moss]

Sure is! Haha

[indigo crow]

I probably wouldn't get a 30 dollar one but I have bought many now.

[naive surge]

😄 same.

hell, back in the day when there was only "buy me a coffee" I bought coffee.

[ashen umbra]

I think that was me, and that's an issue I have with how I value some of my purchases. I can be a bit shrewd in that regard sometimes

Out of all the examples I gave, that maybe wasn't the most fair one

[indigo crow]

Well, they said they were doing fine with what the sold already so I would say stick with the sprites and little reskins of pets? I mean historically those cosmetic things have been the strongest sellers in lots of games.

That world of warcraft horse that made more money than Starcraft 2 for example lol.

[devout kestrel]

That's a terrible example, imo. Both of those are massive games. Orna is nowhere near that scale.

[naive surge]

we need something between "free - and buy me coffee" and "hourly subscription fee" that people are comfortable with. no matter what you want your opinion falls somewhere on the slope.

[fallen moss]

But then there's the want for expansion and raises in this ever worrisome market haha

[naive surge]

thanks for clarifying.

when i posted that I knew someone would make that argument eventually. 😄 and its 1000% true. scale dictates cost and profit.

[ashen umbra]

That about sums up why I don't like the potential direction this game could take from this point forward. We're at battle passes. To me, it all goes downhill from there

[fallen moss]

Fairly bleak

[naive surge]

a lot of these comments are borrowing tomorrows problems. "slipping down the slope" "worrisome market" "it all goes downhill from there"

[naive surge]

indeed.

[ashen umbra]

It's a pessimistic thinking, yeah. You can blame the path the game industry has taken as a whole for the lack of hopefulness. It hasn't given me good enough reason to expect better

[fallen moss]

I'm a parent, tomorrow's problems are today's 😅

[ashen umbra]

I like that wording

[naive surge]

fearing for the future is important but how can the present be changed to make the future not so scary for everyone. us as players and them as developers/a growing company.

[still stratus]

My sympathy for NF, I wonder how they going to maintain server and expand the game.

[naive surge]

see title of discussion board. 😄 😄

EXP must be working on a good one... flickering in there for a good 20-30 mins. 😄

[ivory oak]

i dont know how we want more 《 sprites, balance patchs, updates, new content, bug fixing 》 but when NF start a "battle pass" with no p2w items, and gives a free version with more items than a normal event pack, everyone loses their minds.

The ideal scenario is not sustainable if the company want to grow and offer us new things, battle pass are the best way to make money, and we need to be happy that this "battle pass" consider keeping the game f2p and no extreme advantages to the ones wo pay for it.

[ashen umbra]

That is one hell of a take

[ivory oak]

I think everyone is overracting, thinking odie is gonna be blind for the money

Relax, the guy and the studio know what they are doing

[ashen umbra]

That preeeetty much misses the point of what was being said (at least on my end)

[naive surge]

you point is pretty much how I am taking it. best of a tough situation. the 2-3 things I am still upset about are not huge and wont take away from how I enjoy the game.

[ivory oak]

Monetize idea: skills animations

[ashen umbra]

... Not bad, actually

[naive surge]

intereseting. implementation would be intersting. Goudine is here... I vote for baguette skin for animated swords. 😄

[ashen umbra]

EXP still going too, they're gonna send someone to the shadow realm XD

[still plume]

Anti-speedrun

[naive surge]

I need to go make supper but I want to see this. 😄

[low rover]

As long as there are no more (unfair) accusations about NF, it's nice to share concerns, I have no clear thoughts about all this but there have been some interesting thoughts shared here.
I'm more on the side of "I'm fine with the current archpath and I trust NF for keeping their nice principles" tho.

[naive surge]

true. I have pixel9 pro xl and samsung galaxy s9 tab. Play graphics at min, animations off, sound off.

I would pay 5$ a month for "server priority and less delay" mode. 😄

that one is mostly a joke as i would not pay for it but you make a good point that that would just slow the game down.

[low rover]

If talking about in game animations, "faster animations" is....faster than no animation 🙂 (if they didn't fix it)

[naive surge]

both devices are now changed.

[devout kestrel]

go make supper, Imma be a while

[naive surge]

😵‍💫

[ashen umbra]

concern

[ivory oak]

revolutionary idea:

During each month, one can get 1 new token for free.

Every month, there will be a new animated skin in the store. When one spends this new token on the skin, they have a 0.5% chance of obtaining the skin. The other rewards are random.

The skin is secured to token number 80 Each token costs 1 dollar.

There is no p2w, there are no items, there are only sprites.

The skins are 1 time trial, no patreon uses, or any other methods to obtain that, ig we are generous, with every token, the probability goes up XD

[naive surge]

Um... you would have to flesh that out for me to be 100% but that sounds suspiciously like loot boxes and an in game real money currency.

[ivory oak]

Yes, but no p2w or time reducing items ( dont implement this )

[ashen umbra]

Please, for the love of god, don't advocate for loot boxes of any form...

[naive surge]

The more I think on it the more I think a battle pass is a winning option and drilling into the implementation is the way to go. alleviating the FOMO just a bit more, adding an in game convoluted/dedication based way to Earn an upgrade to premium, and tweaking the Free path activities could tick every box for me. 😦 kind of sad. I don't like battle passes but I'm not seeing a different option that can scale properly.

[naive surge]

order of "OK" battl pass -> ads -> Loot boxes. 😄

[ashen umbra]

And thus normalization continues

[naive surge]

😦 kind of true but progress has to happen. sorry. I keep hoping that someone will come up with something that has a better end solution.

ill run any idea to ground. if it can scale properly, keeps the soul intact and doesn't reward whales or punish those without means it gets a fair shake in my opinion.

[ashen umbra]

"Oh god"

[indigo crow]

Grab your sleigh guys there is some undefined growth at the bottom of this slope.

[ashen umbra]

Seeing all these different names of "X is typing..." flicking in and out is giving me anxiety not gonna lie XD

[naive surge]

Its not bad. think good things.

[ashen umbra]

I dunno, I laid out some pretty hefty finger pointing

[naive surge]

so that was not good i was refering to Coda's comment.

[ashen umbra]

Oh

[naive surge]

I feel this. just the "whats going to happen" and "I dont want to miss it"

[noble dock]

Running a survey while things are broken is a surefire way to get a biased response. You’re going to get negative feedback - it’s broken.

The point of waiting to run a survey when a system is fixed is to get an honest opinion about the system itself. There’s no fear here - it’s just simple bias avoidance. Does that make sense?

I won’t be responding to the other stuff, sorry.

[fallen moss]

Good! It's post 8pm on a Friday night! Be gone with you odie! 😂

Enjoy your weekend!

[ashen umbra]

Gotta say, nothing like a bit of anxiety in your system to have you look back and realize you've been a bit of a dick (Me, I was being the dick, in case there's confusion). Good feeling cough

[low rover]

Become a patreon, it should make you feel even better

[ashen umbra]

Hah, no, I'm good XD

[naive surge]

you have no idea how much I have been toying with that one recently.

[indigo crow]

If it's broken then the feedback that it's broken would not be biased...

[naive surge]

Unproductive. lets not. instead I have a couple things for you guys to pick apart, lets see where my brain messes up at this "normalization" 😄

[noble dock]

If I ask you how you’d enjoy driving this Honda civic, but you realize it’s missing a wheel, could you properly answer the question?

We know a good amount of it didn’t work - it would not be a good use of everyone’s time to ask them. The point of a survey when things are smoother is to understand whether the smoother version is worth keeping around

[low rover]

If you plan to drive on a straight line then yes. Just wanted to be annoying with a stupid comment sorry ! ♥️🥖 Have a nice weekend

[noble dock]

what about a peugeot?

[ivory oak]

Odie sorry for asking this ( off topic ) but the team are happy for the playerbase number? Is it meeting your expectations?

[low rover]

Even with 4 wheels it's clearly not guaranteed 😅

[naive surge]

"this is an 81 Honda how dare you" Just popped in my head LOL. (and I drove civics for many years, just bought a Polestar 2)

[noble dock]

As in, are we satisfied? We are - it’s a big playerbase. But I still want more folk to hear our story, so we’ll keep growing 🙂

[indigo crow]

Pretty dodgy of someone to try to get me into a car with only three wheels.

[ivory oak]

gj man, happy to hear that 🫡

[naive surge]

I really like hearing that its a big player base. you guys put in alot of work to make it happen.

[ivory oak]

If the dev is happy im happy

[ashen umbra]

Yeah. It'd be a whole different story if they were falling behind in users

[low rover]

I personnaly like community feedback thread on new events. The halloween event thread was really nice at some point for exemple, with everyone able to share some ideas wich were added (for some) into the game real quick. It may not be something everyone enjoy, but I personnaly love it

[naive surge]

I feel similar. being part of the molding of the game makes me feel connected to the game. (i wish my job listened half as much LMAO)

[formal bay]

You've been so preoccupied in here that you missed our kingdom war.

[naive surge]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-snap-dave-chappelle-saturday-night-live-oh-no-omg-gif-19226541

[ashen umbra]

https://i.imgur.com/bdfFrUK.gif

[naive surge]

Laughing so hard in my office the wife came to check on me... 🤣

[indigo crow]

Doing my war fight is the highest point of my day.

[ashen umbra]

Usually is a low point for me. "Ah yes, another AL 100 person, good"

[naive surge]

The last few items in the battle pass I would improve revolve around the remaining FOMO, Loot, Tasks, Arch path identity, and a potential free path.

FOMO - not my suggestion but I like it - Break end loot into a few chunks (say 3 for ease) make the 100% a bit larger than 33% and 66%. Same total pool but FOMO of mising a couple days is a bit less. (keep the identity reward at 100% more on this later)

Tasks - also not mine but I like it - both paths should have option to do the tasks. 🙂 its fun to have little scavenger hunts 😄

Loot - With a free and paid path the total loot could use a bump IMO. (summoning scrolls would be good. everyone needs them and a lot of people have thousands but I know I am always wanting more.) keep distribution balanced, I think this is a major part of the negativity surrounding the AAA battle passes when the paid one is packed and the free one is pathetic. (moving aru anvil to free final loot meant a lot to me)

Arch path identity - I'm a collector so for me the biggest thing I look for in a battle pass is a "I was here" "I did it" item. this usually takes the form of a cosmetic. I was sad to see that the cosmetic was paid only. I know it takes effort to create sprites. But a good quality sprite cosmetic, not available to anyone except people who played the event would be a good thing in my mind to give the arch path an identity. (if you do it yearly it could just be something with the year on it)
- make sprites for arch pass easier and allow community sprites. "Next month will be arch pass xx the theme is Bugs, Please create your themed 16-bit sprite and submit voting will be x-x. (see rules and requirements for sprite image)"

potential free path - A way to earn a latch stone. I don't think you should be able to earn every one but maybe every 3rd or 4th (if they continue to be monthly) If you make it quarterly (also a good option for helping FOMO) maybe 1 x per year can be earned.

and chopping motion go, tell me how terrible it is. 😄

[naive surge]

I have been T10 for so long fighting T11 people that I jump for joy when I fight a T10 😄

[indigo crow]

Oh yeah I'm not even 250 yet and get paired up with 100 AL people somewhat regularly.

[ashen umbra]

So fun

[formal bay]

There's always another one. You're up against a DUrsa this time. I was worried this archpath made you not want to play.

[ashen umbra]

Uhhh, about that

Here, lemme PM you Lilytu, I think I've said enough when it comes to my stance on things here as is and more is just being extra

[formal bay]

We should take a break to let Odie enjoy the weekend.

[ashen umbra]

Mmh...

I'm mostly still here because I wanted to see what EXP had to say given they were typing up a storm for a while

[naive surge]

😄 enjoy.

[ashen umbra]

Ultimately though I probably should've left yesterday. Don't think I really did a whole lot of good today in the end besides overstep and say things I don't look back on and say "good job" X3

[naive surge]

I think there's a character limit exp. :D.

(btw this is tablet now, orna phone, new world on computer, and Brooklyn 99 on the TV. LMAO)

[devout kestrel]

I just like thinking carefully about what I am saying, what I am not saying, and why.

[naive surge]

Yeah. I figured. I wish I had done that on some of my posts.

[cobalt panther]

"k"

Pless, after 6 hours of pondering

[naive surge]

Lmfao

[ashen umbra]

Must have been quite the things being said to prompt such a level of care and attention to the to-be post o3o

[devout kestrel]

Foreward

Difficulties in communicating, at the root of it, stem from the fact that not everyone speaks the same language. Words don't all mean the same things to each person.
Not to mention that the same can be said of our individual values. Not everyone values things the same amount or draws the line in the same spots.
I don't care that there are definitions to a word. Our experiences shape our lives, and as such, shape the language we speak.
Working with and around this fact is difficult though, so we all just try our best. 💪

Although I'm just another community member, I appreciate everyone trying to share their thoughts and feelings.
I appreciate the explanations people have provided, even if I did not like the words I read. I do believe that being uncomfortable is a necessity at times.

Initial Thoughts on the Archpath

Upon initial observation, the Archpath looked a lot like an Advent Calendar type thing. Each day, get a reward, just locked behind a requirement.
I felt I understood it well enough. At least, good enough for gut reaction, and hey, the user interface looked pretty nice.
Can entirely understand the commotion with not knowing what the latchkey did prior to buying it.
Upon buying it, and see the "quest" getting updated, it made a lot more sense to me how this operated.

As well established previously, the wording/explanation of the Archpath and Latchstone's uses/mechanics was poor, but that's being resolved, so yay!

Considerations

Archpaths

Personally, I love the Archpath as a concept. I like the NPC quest for the events, but having an Event Quest Calendar Thing is cool to me. I like this concept a lot, and would love to see it returned, if this concept is to be reworked/shelved/whatever. I personally really enjoy the "Daily Quest + Daily Login" type of gameplay. I like having something to do each day.

Its location in the menus, given its new-ness and (personally perceived) relative lack of player's exploration of menus, I understand completely.
Is it where I would put it permanently? No. I think just having in the Event Hub would be fine, but I don't have player interaction metrics to play with here.

The Rewards

I understand that the reward style very similarly matches up with a well known system that people find either perfectly fine or entirely distateful.
I personally like that all participating players can get a fair amount of the rewards out of the Archpath compared to those that buy the Latchstone (Post Reward Editing).
I believe that every player is going to value the items differently, and as such, I will say only two things:
I do not find it too egregious of an offering, assuming a player had completed the Event + Latchstone.
I do not know at what point I would find it too egregious at this time. That I will put my trust into future me, and us.

Battle Pass

I don't love battle passes, but I'm not entirely against them in concept. I like the Archpath more than the monthly packs, as they provide a more interesting monthly paid content. I understand that others do not like it, for various reasons. I may agree or disagree, but my thoughts on others' feelings do not matter.

[ashen umbra]

The promised time came- Time to read :o

EXP's post being as coveted as a new update to the game, snrck-

[naive surge]

Glad I can go to bed after a read. 🤣

Good read.

[zealous oyster]

There is a lot of great discussion here! Appreciate Odie and team for being so receptive to player feedback. There's a novel and a half in here of that.

I wanted to throw in my two cents as well. I think the biggest area for improvement is in the UI surrounding the arch path. To get players to buy something, they should not need to go to discord to figure out what they are buying. Extra clarity around the free vs paid parts of the arch path in-game would help a lot, with the differences being abundantly clear.

I would also maybe recommend cheaper "stepwise" ways to engage with that type of reward. Not sure about others but I can't afford much of a gaming budget and the ability to buy in smaller chunks than 8 USD would make a difference on whether I would spend any money or not.

There is a fine line here between "loot boxes" and "supporting an indie game" that I think is worth paying attention to. This is the closest to a loot box I have seen appear in Orna, and loot boxes are banned in some areas of the world for good reason. I trust the dev teams' intentions, and also, it's worth being extra conscientious around this kind of stuff because the impact of actions can matter more than intentions especially in a global business context.

I like the advent calendar style of this path! Very seasonal and it's nice having different daily objectives once in a while.

Thanks again for the hard work being put into this game.

[ashen umbra]

Foreward

I like this wording quite a bit... cause, yeah, it makes total sense, and is something I started to notice in hindsight after my posts today. There is a very clear difference drawn between both parties. Not everyone will see things the same way simply because some words mean different things to other people. It makes things like this difficult.

Initial thoughts on the Archpath

Its concept isn't... bad on paper. Its implementation was just... poor, and the paid aspect of it has been discussed dozens of times. If it were handled a bit differently, I'm sure it could have been interesting.

Considerations
Archpath

It'd need some serious tweaking if it were to stick around in my opinion, and I don't mean by adjusting rewards and calling it a day. I feel it needs to be re-thought.

Rewards
That's the tricky bugger, isn't it? So much hinges on what people find ok and what others don't.

Battle pass
It does at last provide gameplay compared to simply buying something, I will give it that. The underlining distaste towards the style of system can step aside to say that much at the very least

Very good post

[gray radish]

All "premium" consumables can eventually be reached, one way or the other, but you can pay so it takes less time.

• Dragon remains - event bosses, but you can find them in dungeons or elsewhere anyways
• Great Dowsing rod - luck gear + regular dowsing rod
• Svargan Fishing line - just fish lol and there's 500 daily cap anyway
• Gold mushroom - For early to mid players, gold shouldn't be a problem late game
• Aaru Anvil - insa-smith, but achievable with galar and myrk hammers
• Jewel of Destruction - kinda P2W since it's "exclusive" gear but hey it's on a free day!
• Crest of the Felling - just farm more summoning scrolls/kill more raids.

For new players these are a big help, for late game players also a big help, but we've managed to get where we are with players at 100+ ALs even without these consumables, having them in-game somewhat locked behind a battle pass paywall won't really change much except make much things more convenient. You'd still need to kill raids, do dungeons, do towers, do blacksmithing, but perhaps a lot less compared to before. You'd make more progress, and you still do even without.

Only time I'd start having a bad taste in my mouth is if OP gear gets introduced and locked behind this kind of micro transaction. Like imagine AFC being the final reward, and unobtainable anywhere else, now that would be evil 😂

[ashen umbra]

Well, I think things have run their course for me. I could easily just leave the server without a word, but... that's not usually do things, especially when I feel it's worth saying a goodbye for something that meant a lot to me.

It is too bad that my feelings on the game and its direction no longer align, especially after all this time. It's been nearly 5 1/2 years, with 47 days and 5 hours (1133 total hours) of game time. That's the most any game has ever gotten out of me outside of something like an MMO. It truly had to be something special for that to happen. I am grateful for Orna being a companion game for me during all of that time.

I hold no ill feelings towards the team as I leave. I know I threw around some pretty harsh words (and it's not the first time either), and I know I can't just take those back and pretend it never happened. For that I do apologize. Despite everything I have said, I deeply wish NF the best of luck going forward, and I hope Orna keeps progressing to being the best game they envision it to be.

Maybe I'll come back some day. And if not, well... it's been one hell of a ride. Thanks for making one worth enjoying for this long!

[low rover]

(It may be too early to leave as the feedback is still open, but if you feel so I wish you the best on your next adventure 🤞
Really nice to see some kind words for Odie/NF, especially as you disagree with this new archpath thing.)