(C/K)onqueror's Guild Live Beta Discussion

[warm wigeon]

Ok will add that to the list haha

[pulsar spear]

There can be a lag

but I think you are right

[red obsidian]

But maybe 170 crowns isn't enough for exp?

[pulsar spear]

We aren't getting for collection confirmed

[warm wigeon]

It should be when claimed

[pulsar spear]

my mini has 4 xp and has 3 spots and has collected 5 days in a row

[warm wigeon]

It also maybe shouldnt be 1:1 same as duels

Like maybe 2 for crown 1 for duel

[pulsar spear]

the 4 xp I have is from duel

on my mini

My sandbox toon als has 3 crownship and only 1 xp with 0 duels

and I just collected rewards now

all 3 spots on sandbox were vs player

and not npc

[red obsidian]

Without materials in the shop or anything guild level locked currently it wouldn't be an issue, but having items generally more accessible currently because Beta and guild level limits possibly being added to items in shop, that would make quite a difference

[pulsar spear]

There were limits for like guild level 25 etc

I think they took em out for open

[warm wigeon]

Just a leaderboard thing

[pulsar spear]

or no they are still there

[red obsidian]

Can you imagine needing to rock paper scissors 1 exp at a time to level 25 to be able to unlock an item?

[warm wigeon]

Guild level limits are redundant to proofs gathered honestly

[pulsar spear]

I do hope they adjust those points but look at Memory Hunts 😄

[red obsidian]

Yeah, but if it was 25 levels then even if the experience per level stayed at 20 per level you'd need to win RPS 500 times to buy the item

[pulsar spear]

So a 3 hour tour?

[red obsidian]

Wait.... I'm forgetting my rule... Trust that Odie knows what he is doing

[pulsar spear]

https://tenor.com/view/gilligans-island-gilligan-gif-11171837

[warm wigeon]

#1275487953480712324 message
Anything Im missing here or should remove?

[pulsar spear]

I think the Settlement Management Option may be a good one. Like from Home base be able to see what's owned and be allowed to change the reward being received from them?

[warm wigeon]

I think it was already addressed that revisitation was intended

[pulsar spear]

It is but there are other mechanics to make that happen and we can't always change the reward after a win

but /meh

[warm wigeon]

Maybe an option for defaulted priority of rewards, since each reward set of options is different

Like in guild you can order which reward you want a settlement to give by default

If you ever want to change that reward you would have to revisit. Something like that?

[pulsar spear]

yeah that would work

The persitance when in the instance could also help resolve it

So you win your duel, you can change the reward but can't fight more if too far away

sorry not duel

You conquer the crown and then change reward

[buoyant falcon]

I think it would be a nice QoL for a long press to instantly bring you into the fight your for your highest crown.

[warm wigeon]

Id love that yeah

Will add both of these suggestions to the list

[rapid fossil]

Sure, you're welcome! I was also thinking that it would keep weaker players engaged and desiring to get stronger because they have reason to keep interacting with the settlements, reminding themselves they should be getting strong enough to win. I was just thinking it would dilute my message xD

[karmic nymph]

66 crownships

[warm wigeon]

9 crownships

[eager perch]

To dip into your analogy. Yes that 5 year player in any game will beat a new player. And they should. FPS players know maps, guns, and respon systems to sweep. MMO players have the highest level gear and game knowledge that lets them sweep new players. And games like Mobas reward long time players based on their game knowledge. To your point that each system hands out end of match rewards sure, but these games need to to keep players playing the pvp only game. Orna is much much more than a pvp game.

I respect your opinion that there should be some gain by playing. But I just disagree with that philosophy with This Aspect of Orna. If you really wanted to be competitive in orna you would build ALs. Which is and should be much more effective to get from the pve aspect of the game.

Imo this system should not reward anything on a loss. It should only reward wins in the mini game, at your tier of fights, and for owning land. At each level there is some avenue for ANY player to get a win. Which is very amazing for this system.

[opaque glade]

I'd love to have a status tab for the othersouls, so we can see their stats with different gear equipped

[warm wigeon]

100% agree with this. Participation trophies are lame in pvp

[warm wigeon]

Nice one. Will add this to the pin

[eager perch]

I think there are perfectly great systems that say you are not good enough yet. “Get good elsewhere”

This aspect of pvp in this one guild in orna. That is ok to say

[warm wigeon]

This is a great way to put it. ' you cannot defeat this player of relatively equal tier, go get more gear and try again later'

[eager perch]

Agreed

[warm wigeon]

One of the biggest reasons i enjoyed this game early on was the challenge of fighting t10s areas as a t9. Thats an extreme scenario, but i know from many others stories that challenge is what kept us around.

ALs being a different story, but tiers and normal progression/gear disparity is a good level playing field for pvp competition

No (or at least very minor) participation trophies

[eager perch]

I feel like I am kinda ganging up agains you Tyrm. I do want to hear your opinion and am happy to listen to what you have to say

[pulsar spear]

I will agree to disagree - pvp only games often get new maps, new characters to play, new gear, new seasons. They also have better tiering systems and the like. MMO's often split PVP from PVE entirely and reward you for playing one or the other - not both. The reward of time for knoweldge and being better than others because of that gained experience is valid. The use of a purely PVE system to reward PVP is what invalidates all pvp in this game imo.

[eager perch]

I think other people probably have a similar opinion as you

[warm wigeon]

Same thought here^ not tryna gang up. Always respect the other side

Need more opinions. This is just a few of us

[eager perch]

^ big facts

[pulsar spear]

If we had a system that gave pvp only rewards and allowed me to excel in only pvp I would probably go all in on that 🙂

[sacred spade]

I have no real preference either way, but I think keeping in mind player retention is important.

BoF is a dead guild, and it is an even playing territory (mostly). If people want wide spread engagement, there probably has to be some form of incentive to keep playing while new players get curbstomped repeatedly

[pulsar spear]

Basically that ^

[warm wigeon]

Leaderboards / good reward system is a good incentive. Fwiw im proposing keeping the Duel system with a small reduced reward. Doesnt bother me

[pulsar spear]

and the argument of well then get gud doesn't really help and I know you all aren't saying that

[eager perch]

I think that bof is dead for a number of reasons. Mostly cause it takes so long to get any rewards. Not necessarily the meta on how players play

[pulsar spear]

It's not an incentive when you can't get rewards and incentives though

[warm wigeon]

BoF is dead for different reasons. Exactly.

Do not compare conq to bof

[buoyant falcon]

Honestly BoF tokens should just be worth much more and probably have some other rollable drops.

[pulsar spear]

If they treated BoF with seasons and changed up house rules maybe

[sacred spade]

The leaderboards and good rewards are going to be locked behind end game players anywhere even semi competitive.

They can't be the only reward, otherwise your expecting new players to engage for the ability to maybe take a territory, maybe hold it for more than a few hours, and maybe get the rewards they want from the RNG reward wheel

[warm wigeon]

If the non-intrinsic incentives are high enough then players will be motivated to get better outside of pvp and bring their gained knowledge / gear to the next settlement fights

[eager perch]

I think that we could type for a billion years about how/what should be done about bof. But for now is it fair to say we should focus on beta, knowing that having players be rewarded to play this new control system?

[warm wigeon]

Which i believe this conq guild iteration already accomplished

Yes no more BoF talk or comparisons. Different chat

[sacred spade]

I'm not proposing any changes to fixing or altering BoF, but pretending that it doesn't have some of the same underlying issues is naive at best

[warm wigeon]

Not when the crowns are tiered. If Othersouls represent 50% power of your outputted gear even, that represents a fair fight between a newbie at that othersoul tier. Everyone wins

[sacred spade]

People don't play because even at 0AL, they get wrecked by people who know what their doing and get no rewards as a result.

Avoiding that problem in conq guild is probably a good idea if people want more engagement than you and the other 2 T11s that might exist around you

[warm wigeon]

Nobody wants a cakewalk in pvp

Challenge is what keeps us around

PVP is not for everyone

[sacred spade]

It's going to creep into othersouls as well. T3 and T5 especially 🤷‍♂️

[pulsar spear]

It all goes back to my original statement. A 5 year veteran that is super active - lets say Top 20 global. Will not be dethroned through normal human means even with a full year + of play. The best they can do is maybe cheese them but never dethrone them.

This is a game that rewards too much PVE play for PVP where is the challenge?

[eager perch]

I like what you said here and I think I will think about it a bit more before responding. What I think we both agree on is that we want players to want to win in the conq guild. Your argument (at risk of being reductionary) is that players need bread crumbs to get to the win screen. My argument is that the win screen should be dopamine enough to validate the chase. Which as you have said might just be two different philosophies to model game loops

[warm wigeon]

The lower tiered othersouls of that 5 year veteran absolutely can be dethroned in current construction. Which is a huge success for this iteration.

[pulsar spear]

Sure if I am a T5

[warm wigeon]

A t9 othersoul nerfed to 50% power can easily be taken by a crimson gazer eyes closed new player

Just saying

[karmic nymph]

buggane has entered the chat

[pulsar spear]

Sure if I was a T9

[sacred spade]

And then they hit T10, and are fighting with their undergeared OS against a fully godforged, celestial weapon equipped OS

[pulsar spear]

with 100+ levels of AL and 15% defense amity and and and

[warm wigeon]

By t10 they should understand the game

[warm wigeon]

ALs different conversation

[karmic nymph]

I will say from personal experience, even with ALs in play the individual player's build does matter quite a bit

I'm sure s2's ascensions are one reason I can't touch him in territory, but there's another guy in my area at similar ascension who I can consistently take from

[warm wigeon]

At t10, no ALs here, if my strategy /gear is better then I should win in pvp. The loser here should go collect gear, learn from the loss, and come back stronger.

Pvp is not an 'i just entered this tier and expect to succeed' type of thing. And should never be.

[warm wigeon]

Hence why a t9 took an ascended t10 areas

[rapid fossil]

The ingenious thing about the new system (seriously, very high praise for this aspect of it) is that players still have to get good, they still have those imposing challenges of Big Bad™ conquerors, except that now they can focus on getting stronger while being fully capable of conquering the earlier tiers. All without having any unfair power advantage over people who earned it rightfully. (That last statement depends on how the Material Equalizer ends up being balanced out, but yeah.)

[karmic nymph]

:(

[sacred spade]

You know very well they don't though.

We can pretend and say "players should just know! It's endgame!" But that's a bad argument and far removed from reality.

Read the T10 channel here or the discussion in OL. You'll see T11s that don't understand what ward is.

We can ignore that demographic and tell them to get good, and most of them won't, or you incentive the behavior so they at least participate even if they almost always lose

That's the problem

People want to pretend like the minority here on discord are the average orna player.

They aren't even close

[rapid fossil]

Rewards at 2149. Materials finally shot up, florens + proofs + crownguards + items + shrines still seem hardcapped.

[sacred spade]

So again, it comes down to you can have a system with widespread engagement, because you give them breadcrumbs for participating

Or we can have an fun little endgame guild where the handful of us on discord are the main players

[serene dirge]

does the most competitive guild in the game need to cater to every knowledge level of player? i would say no - especially at the Emperor tier. imo, the players that struggle with the game mechanics most are not the ones who are going to opt-in to the competitive PvP aspect

[warm wigeon]

We are talking about roughly 10-20% of the content in this game. There is still 80+% of this game to enjoy. Guilds are a 'play your way ' game. Im not saying curb stomping is a good thing whatsoever.

[karmic nymph]

You'll see T11s that don't understand what ward is.
On the other hand if a T11 doesn't understand what ward is, they shouldn't be able to touch a T11 who does

[warm wigeon]

Preach. Odie nailed it here. And the rock paper scissors gives the low knowledge level an interaction and interest outlet with small reward.

[karmic nymph]

All due respect that's a whole new level of skill issue compared to just "I didn't kill enough jorms to get a good FSC"

[sacred spade]

I'm not saying they should.

I'm saying their should be an incentive to try

[zenith scarab]

1. Most Orna 'pvp' is not pvp.
2. I am really looking forward to see what the Exploration inclusion will end up looking like 🙂

[karmic nymph]

Granted I don't actually play many PVP centric games, but in my experience in MMOs at least if you lose in PVP you just die and that's it

[warm wigeon]

If we start rewarding losses we are playing something more like club penguin out here

[serene dirge]

tfw exploration is pvp

[karmic nymph]

Take with a grain of salt though, the only MMOs I play are STO and runescape

[zenith scarab]

Exploration just kicks you into a live pvp battle where the defender plays an Elite Goblin Lord

[karmic nymph]

pls no I've had enough of playing monsters glares at traveler's guild

[serene dirge]

exploration is just 1v5 against Gilga Ursa and if you lose, you lose an equiment set slot

[warm wigeon]

Straight fire. Odie mentioning Gursa being a final boss OP makes my day

[serene dirge]

just counter it, what's the big issue

[swift flame]

While we're tweaking things, could we change the timer on the collect rewards button from every 23 hours to just once within a 24 hour period please? The cooldown timers sometimes get frustrating when life happens and then your timer is off untill you just miss a day completely. With the once in a 24 hour period that won't happens as much.

[warm wigeon]

Hey I did counter it in March😂
Still crazy OP

[sacred spade]

I'm not even saying it should cater to them

But again, do you want widespread participation, or a niche endgame thing? Caus the current iteration for most new players in an area with endgame T11 is:

• you lose to OS at T3
• you almost always lose to OS at T5
• you finally start to win at T7
• you should always win at T9
• then you hit T11 and you go back to always losing both with main character, and all your OS as well

And now you've got a player who gets no rewards from the system, and just stops engaging

I'm going to body everybody around me, so it's whatever.

But I imagine I'll have more fun if players feel like there is a reason to slowly eat away at my settlements

[karmic nymph]

Reset at midnight like the current territory rewards screen would be nice

[warm wigeon]

Point taken but Its been acknowledged OS will be balanced better

Hard to get that right on first try

Near impossible actually lol

[zenith scarab]

People really HATED my idea of having players get loot off your OS when they beat it. They didn't want to take a chance of losing that 200% GF gear

[karmic nymph]

I think the intended progression when fighting OS is that players new to the tier group should be losing and players near the top of the tier group should be winning

Which is kinda just the same as it is right now in T10-11, except T10-11 has a way way higher ceiling

[serene dirge]

i'm not quite getting the "always lose at T3/T5" - why do i not have a shot in lower leagues in this hypothetical?

[sacred spade]

I don't like the idea of losing it, but this is actually a cool idea

Let othersouls drop the gear they are wearing

[warm wigeon]

I can suggest it but dont think its necessary. Kind of like the diluted pnemonic mechanic maybe?

[swift flame]

Or even go one further and let you choose when your daily reset time is?

[karmic nymph]

ooh yeah

[serene dirge]

hey it's trading

[zenith scarab]

The biggest thing I would see is players not having enough attack or magic power to get through the defenses at low tiers since you go through them so fast you might not have great weapons

[sacred spade]

I didn't have time to upgrade gear beyond level 3 or 4 before I was out of those tiers back in 2019.

At the current pace, it is maybe an ornate or two from the tier, compared to othersouls running full BiS with a bunch of ornate immo jewels

[zenith scarab]

And T5 is Dagda level

Well not now I guess

[pulsar spear]

So I think a straight fresh T3 vs a T11 with T3 gear is going to lose b/c the T3 OS will have the ability to GF ornate gear at that level and would lose more

[karmic nymph]

oh no

[warm wigeon]

Legit that would be trading

Interesting

[pulsar spear]

Same for T5/T7 and T8/T9 you may start to get into Level 10 gear but still not vs my best in slot GF gear

[zenith scarab]

I forgot that got fixed

[warm wigeon]

Imagine an economy in orna

Off topic sorry

[swift flame]

Oh, can you use the proofs to buy materials also, like you can with other guilds?

[karmic nymph]

It does seem like just a way for t10s to pass gear down to their alts for free lol

[serene dirge]

but i still have the opporunity to work on older gear, right? the comment made me think you were saying i'm doomed to always lose

[zenith scarab]

Sleep dart going to be workinn overtime in those low tier battles since OS don't get accessories though

[karmic nymph]

Have there been tests of an actual T3 player against a T3 othersoul yet

[serene dirge]

i suppose the example is solely just a very fresh T10 who hasn't put work into any league yet, and isn't quite ready for Emperor. it's a player cohort, yes, but one that is changeable

[sacred spade]

You effectively are for a really long time

A T5 player that just left the T3 othersoul now needs:

An ornate dudley hammer
An ornate salah/dala head
Ornate monocerous gear that is event locked
And ornate immo jewels that aren't even available en mass until T9

[pulsar spear]

Yes with a fresh mini

My T3 run 75% of the time against the OS at T5 it was more like 50% only because I was missing gear

[serene dirge]

keep in mind the adorn thing will likely be fixed due to how OP it'd be

[sacred spade]

I feel like that is new information?

[rapid fossil]

Godforging the gear in those tiers matters way less than people think it actually does, especially when you have no accessories, amities, classes, or passives.

[sacred spade]

Cause it definitely does change the current lamdscape

[pulsar spear]

At T5 when I get my main gear back in I iwll have T5 Ornate Surtr and Hel and Dagda I think? If not T4 Fomorian so I would expect the OS would lose more

Gf gives an extra adornment slot

[crisp condor]

I have a full set of surtr

[pulsar spear]

stats meh

[sacred spade]

T5 can run a +60% assassin stasis build. Good luck newbies

[rapid fossil]

My statement still stands

[zenith scarab]

It's slightly over a 10% increase in stats from a level 10 in most of the items I checked last night

Boss items a lil better

[crisp condor]

I AM GOING TO PUT TURUL FEATHERS IN THEM HAHAHAHAHHA
BEHOLD MY ONESHOT BUILD

Yea me getting oneshoted

[pulsar spear]

5 slots is not insignicant if you gf weapon, offhand, boots, chest and helm

[rapid fossil]

Getting your gear to level 10 is the bulk of the stats. It'll be a challenge, but the advantage is still in the court of the player of that tier. The godforged gear just makes it less likely they'll win once they get good gear.

[warm wigeon]

Balancing OS has been acknowledged not sure what you're getting at here

[indigo flume]

Also, there's AI, which is by default beatable

[warm wigeon]

It is known already

[sacred spade]

Balanced for players on tier, so a tier 5 against an othersoul

But that is much different than othersoul versus othersoul, where endgame players again have a huge advantage, limiting rewards for new players

[eager perch]

I do wish that you “looted” resources when you captured a settlement and not just quick warp to the OT after grinding out some settlements within 2 hours cause it is the optimal route

[orchid meadow]

Currently othersouls don't have access to accessories, amities or class passives. Those are fairly sizeable differences between on tier players and othersouls, no?

[eager perch]

Like you booted the crown and had an option to pillage (get loot now) or resettle and get more loot later. But that also seems v complicated in the final hour

[karmic nymph]

I think Bwubble is referring to once a player graduates to T10

their ability to compete would suddenly drop off

[sacred spade]

At T7 and T9 absolutely

But my point wasn't what happens on tier.

It's what happens after they leave, and are now getting curbstomped everywhere

A fresh T10 won't be competitive at a single crown level

[orchid meadow]

Not really. They can continue to fight in othersoul battles for the rewards, and power up over time.

There's been a few comments already in this thread that stronger players with more investment should be respected

[serene dirge]

that is fairly aligned with the rest of the game too, though. correct? Orna is currently designed with a difficulty spike every uptier. Conq will align with that, yes

[sacred spade]

I just want participation, and if that means there needs to be a "participation trophy" while players get repeatedly wrecked for a few weeks or months, then I think it is a good idea

[orchid meadow]

And as I mentioned, they can engage in othersouls battles for the rewards

[buoyant falcon]

I'm not sure how a low tier othersoul controlled by a player, that can use status abiltiies, would have any trouble dealing with an NPC othersoul even if they have good gear

[wary pulsar]

RIP the T3 Boots that can grant +2000 hp

This is definitely for the best, and I'm glad it's being fixed.

[sacred spade]

None of this is about having these new players win.

It's about encouraging them to play the game when all they will be doing is losing. A lot.

[serene dirge]

Explore + Othersouls + SAS should give them something to do while working up the tier

[orchid meadow]

They can compete using othersouls, no?

[rapid fossil]

I don't think it's understood how difficult, maybe even impossible, it will be to both get ridiculously high stats and status immunity onto your Othersoul. It will not be impossible to compete.

[orchid meadow]

That's why othersouls exist

[warm wigeon]

I think participation will always be more limited to just player density in general here if you're worried about participation @sacred spade . Lets see how it shakes out live and we can take suggestions from there?

[karmic nymph]

stronger players with more investment should be respected
While I generally do agree with this, I wouldn't be opposed to splitting T10-11 into two brackets simply because of how much higher the ceiling is in T10

[warm wigeon]

Dont compare to BoF of course

[karmic nymph]

I mean just for example, 245 is unequivocally a major breakpoint for any mage player

cough ultima

[orchid meadow]

We've covered this quite a few times in this thread.

There isn't the player population to have that be feasible

*in the top end in all areas

[rapid fossil]

I am definitely trying it while I can, just because I want to see it

[sacred spade]

Not effectively

If that is the opinion of the studio, so be it

But we are underestimating the othersoul advantage T11s are going to have versus the othersouls of new players

[karmic nymph]

Ah I haven't read everything

[zenith scarab]

Let's dream of a world where that is the case though!

Orna with 4 million players ❤️

[wary pulsar]

I do think you are somewhat underestimating the strategies/stubborness that can be applied by lower tier players

[karmic nymph]

if player population levels are that prohibitive I'll take your word for it since I don't have access to such data

[orchid meadow]

When you say "not effectively", care to elaborate?

[wary pulsar]

Just, straight up, it is very difficult to make an Othersoul sleep immune.

[rapid fossil]

I don't think it's understood how difficult, maybe even impossible, it will be to both get ridiculously high stats and status immunity onto your Othersoul. It will not be nearly impossible to compete. It will just mean those needing to kill with the aid of status effects and debuffs will be conquering those specific spots slower. Which does not seem unfair.

[warm wigeon]

What if when a t11 player takes a territory, there is no othersoul battle? It takes everything below it.

When a t5 takes a territory, it takes t5 and t3

It still keeps involvement of all tiers. Othersouls fighting each other seems off

[sacred spade]

Given that I can immune everything except sleep/stasis/drenched by T5, it ain't that difficult

[zenith scarab]

Other Souls are really a bit of an unknown atm, their stat scaling is kinda wonky atm and we aren't in a situation to test them out vs players of the appropriate tier in different gear set ups. I think it's one of those things it's just gonna require some tuning once it goes wide.

[pulsar spear]

I have been testing using a fresh T3 vs my Mirror but the mirror was missing some of the best gear overall

the change to prohibit gems will help

[karmic nymph]

I was under the impression sleep is one of the strongest statuses in pvp though

[pulsar spear]

as I said above somewhere T3 I was winning as a fresh T3 with junk gear 75% of the time vs the T11 OS

[sacred spade]

We also have pets with cleanse available by T5, and woppletinger that heals for 250 available at T3.

Sleep also breaks on hit, so you gotta one tap, or the OS hits back

[pulsar spear]

Pets

[wary pulsar]

Pet damage, turns to buff, or DoT statuses. There are definitely ways to take advantage of Sleep

[karmic nymph]

They said they managed to immune all the DoTs

[serene dirge]

i think we're talking a lot in hypotheticals/assumptions. much of this can be addressed over time if we see major guild accessibility issues. we'll likely want to focus our time on base mechanics and fundamentals in this beta

[pulsar spear]

My biggest issue was pimpoing out the Souls with End Game Gems as Knight said 2000 HP added to the T3 would have been game over

[sacred spade]

I also think we need to remember that spending 15+ turns to take a single crown is... like thr most optimal thing for the defender ever

If I want 1000+ territories, offensive statuses ain't gonna get me there

[wary pulsar]

If a T7 wants to take 1000+ territories they may need to reign in those ambitions

Generally, they usually just want to own their hometown

Which in the current Othersoul climate, is easily doable for anyone with a little determination.

[pulsar spear]

So my issue still goes back to knowing what the caps are, how much are the diminishing returns, what is the falloff for distance is and when do we get actually attacked by NPC's for mechanic relates stuff

[wary pulsar]

The goal is not to let EXP-Less rival Mobile Wonder (although - given his stats he could), as far as I know it's for newer players not to be discouraged when their OT is owned by a brick wall.

[orchid meadow]

This is very important ^

It'll be great to hear constructive ideas based in actual testing, which can happen over the course of this beta and an open live beta, and even as it goes live tweaking can happen.

Definitely want to aim for keeping our ideas based in tests over hypothesis if we can

[zenith scarab]

Pless is more like a terracotta wall

[frozen wasp]

Of note with this though, I'm a major outlier.
Baron Othersoul can equip up to T3 stuff. I (well, any T3) can equip T4 stuff.

[karmic nymph]

Damn that just breaks the balance entirely smh

[wary pulsar]

It was more just a joke regarding T3 players shouldn't be trying to own thousands of settlements

[zenith scarab]

I get the concern regarding OS, I have a lot of the same thoughts. But that's on like step V when we are still on C

[rapid fossil]

Without accessories and having "unbeatable" stats?

[rapid fossil]

And it's true, but a 15 turn victory is still a victory and isn't considered shutting someone out.

[pulsar spear]

So speaking specifically on the mechanics since we still don't know. Can we confirm Caps/Diminishing returns for Number of Settlments and Crowns VS distance and activity? Do we have a way to test this or a hint to help us?

[orchid meadow]

Have seen the question asked multiple times, and am not ignoring you but simply don't know the answer.

I think the economy stuff though is already noted and may be adjusted so I'm unsure if sharing figures (which is an Odie thing) would be very beneficial until he can have another look at them among some other things

[frozen wasp]

Had a mirror of my main from a while ago reach T4, equipped an Othersoul with whatever stuff he had, and had him fight a "fresher" mirror of my main.
First fight went horribly. Second fight went better, but not great. Third fight went fantastic.
I defended for a few turns, to let the PvP Turn Stat Decay kick in, and was doing really solid damage. Took a few turns, and I did eventually lose, but it went really well.
Especially considering the territory is right in my OT on both, and both had recently logged in. No crazy adornments, just good equipment.

[rapid fossil]

One day I will say something so good, John will pin it.

[pulsar spear]

lol

One day maybe 🤞🏻

[swift flame]

So can you use proofs to buy materials like you can in other guilds?

[pulsar spear]

Sorry yeah this is a point that is sticking for me. Second part was asking others here if there any ways we could to try test this. I know you aren't ignoring me 😄

[pulsar spear]

nope but you can select materials as a reward daily

[swift flame]

Boo

Thankyou for the answer though.

Could we maybe get it so that we can buy materials with proofs like all the other guilds please?

[pulsar spear]

I am not sure it makes sense for that but NF could do it, I would rather use them for fighting and defending you can get a lot daily in the new system. 429 is highest we have seen so far and that is daily

[eager perch]

Please dont offer me a menu one more time to try for matts

Im happy with the hold to get mats

[swift flame]

429 random materials versus being able to spend the proofs to get a specific material I need would be nice. I remember the guilds were supposed to help the refinery bloat right?

[pulsar spear]

They already do, you have many options already and its 3-5 sets of mats not individual random

And proofs are needed for attack/defense buffs etc

And the returns per proof would probably be really horrible on top of that

[swift flame]

One of my biggest complaints about PVP is when I need a particular resource, I'm wasting my time with PVP when I could be grinding one of the other guilds to get that resource. 😦 So one of my biggest hopes with the conquerors guild was that PVP won't be so much wasted time when it comes to this. :/

[pulsar spear]

So you bof all the time then?

b/c you can mats there

70 CO only 294 proofs

[swift flame]

I go mobile, so travellers guild or anguish mostly now.

[warm wigeon]

The bulk resources per day based on settlements is cool though and should help. And it's something different than just another guild menu to buy mats

[pulsar spear]

This Guild will give you Materials daily in sets of 3-5 which are random yeah but it's more passive and will add up super nicely. You may not get what you want dialy but I think it's better than trying to use the proofs to get materials because the cost would probably be more than that and each proof means 1 conq or 1 duel per.

[warm wigeon]

Agree with tyrm

[rapid fossil]

To be fair, holding enough land to get a significant amount of random materials in daily income may be comparable to the RNG of a guild shop.

[warm wigeon]

Imagine holding 1000 settlements. Youd get something like 100 of each mat daily or something

(will change im sure but based on current numbers)

[zenith scarab]

It's definitely not that high right now

[pulsar spear]

It varies, and that is ok I am at a meager 346 Settlements

and I just got 56 x 5

[warm wigeon]

Yeah thats solid

Keep the way it is plz

[rapid fossil]

Though it seems different per settlement per day, I did 2149 and got 429 total materials.

Florens definitely hardcapped at 125

[pulsar spear]

lol yeah was going to say something about that

There goes my alt dreams of getting free temples

[zenith scarab]

Ahh those early days when I was getting over 1000 florens per day. RIP my temple dreams

[rapid fossil]

Well, hopefully it changes. Again, I am in full favor of no cap on the rewards, even if it means they need to be somewhat reduced. It feels more sensible and motivates me to actually keep going for what I want.

[rapid fossil]

Wait what?

[pulsar spear]

Yeah first day or so I had one too that was 400 or so

[pulsar spear]

after that day I went around and fixed the preferred rewards and didn't pay attention

[zenith scarab]

That was a very early days reward lmao

[pulsar spear]

oh that was like closed private alpha there lol

vs patreon alpha

[zenith scarab]

Which gives some context when we are taking feedback on Step C and not something on Step G. Things can and do change as the studio works from the base up!

[warm wigeon]

100% agree with you on that

[pulsar spear]

I was wrong my first one was 45 not 400

[rapid fossil]

Oh snap. I didn't know that happened. That must have been fixed real quick because I took quite a few and got the reward the first evening and didn't see that

[pulsar spear]

Def seems like shrine is 1h cap

And it appears to only be wisdom which is useless to 250s (unless building up them t10 alts)

[zenith scarab]

I have gotten luck

[rapid fossil]

Oh wait, right, ORN got even earlier access.

[pulsar spear]

yeah

Private Closed Alpha

[zenith scarab]

Just call us the Bug-A-Salt 3.0

[pulsar spear]

Private Closed in House
Private Closed Alpha
Patreon Alpha and/or Beta
Private Open Beta
Live Open Beta
Live

soemthing like that

or Free Labor 3.0

[zenith scarab]

Alright enough loafing at the end of my work day, time to take 4 minutes to close up shop and head on the drive home. Peace

[rapid fossil]

Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life nor get paid for it.

[rapid fossil]

Oooh what sort of shop do you run? If you don't mind.

[clever scroll]

What's corrupted plunders??

[wary pulsar]

Nobody knows

[karmic nymph]

counterpoint: "I've never gone to work, I've only gone to fly" - Capt. Dennis Fitch

[red obsidian]

So... Side observation, I know I mentioned SAS being the only current way to gain guild exp, but it seems like reputation for the guild leaderboard is still showing the number of areas from old system and not crowns for other players, so the leaderboard is ranked purely on guild level which is just SAS... So, I doubt it will stay in the current configuration for guild exp

[tepid zodiac]

Who named the NPc conquerers

[red obsidian]

Petition to change them to Konquerers

[spark glade]

Honestly, this is why I'm already enjoying this system from just an outside view. I feel bad owning half my town, I'm sure many other players would've liked to have some involvement somewhere. But if it wasn't me taking control of it it was the other 250 30AL player doing it

[crisp condor]

So we will not be able to use t10 adorns for OS?

Time to remove them 😔

Rip my t5 crit OS

[wary pulsar]

At least you can still give a T9 OS a Brilliant Feathers full of Ferocious Bull's Eyes

[tepid zodiac]

These spawn too close and far too many

[crisp condor]

Good point

The build will live!

[supple violet]

it's beta

[crisp condor]

Sadly with so many restrictions made for balance purposes, the build variety is going to take a big hit

By the looks of it... Most people will go crit

[supple violet]

We should get one accessory slot

[tepid zodiac]

I'm gonna use mortars

[supple violet]

I will sleep dart you

[tepid zodiac]

Pump up a Brilliant feathers with solarite mortars

[supple violet]

I will sleep dart you

[analog dew]

Specifically, the spawn rate is bumped up for beta

[supple violet]

hm

[analog dew]

It's been 24 hours and I haven't had a single crown contested yet despite a jag into London

Beta over, time to ship it

[supple violet]

Offhand skills don't work

[pulsar spear]

Yeah bug known issue

[pulsar spear]

I put Amadan's on my T9 Other Souls

[supple violet]

I will sleep dart you

[pulsar spear]

and couldn't use the skill

[supple violet]

I will sleepdart you

[analog dew]

I'm actually excited for the T5 ornate coiled shield I picked up today

[pulsar spear]

I feel like we need Some T3/T5 gear with sleep immunity on it

T7 and T9 too?

[supple violet]

the t3 othersouls are kinda weak

[crisp condor]

All of them are

[supple violet]

No

the

uh

[crisp condor]

Nuh buh

[supple violet]

conquest people are weak

that's ungeared

[crisp condor]

My hype lvls got cooled down quite a bit, nearly freezing
I was mainly looking for the building builds aspect of OS. Sadly it looks like that is not a main concern

[supple violet]

yeeee...

I was hoping for some cool stuff from builds

I'm still going to obliterate all of the t9 othersouls with Cactus.

[crisp condor]

Rip, another part of the game that I will most likely ignore

Tho I might be talking too fast, it is just in beta rn

[supple violet]

I want to see more playstyles

[crisp condor]

Same
Maybe they will add more items with cool abilities

Or rework the existing ones

[supple violet]

:v There's a ton of funny combos that could come around

And IDK why half of them are so blatantly ignored

[clever scroll]

What do you think is missing in Conquerors Guild? For me it is fine right now and just needs to polish some things

[crisp condor]

Like?

[crisp condor]

Actually, I just want more cool items to make builds with

The guild is fine

Oh and a pet slot for loadouts lol

[red obsidian]

stasis build with assassin stats on gear?

[vital bolt]

Cool items as in +% area defense?

[crisp condor]

Not really

[clever scroll]

No please

[vital bolt]

What's a cool item? this is the space to suggest these

[red obsidian]

I mean, if they added scrolls for a guild raid boss, I would expect the gear from that boss to have +% area defense

[supple violet]

Cactus is funny.

[red obsidian]

Maybe a conquest guild offense + damage% stat?

[karmic nymph]

moar sprites

[vital bolt]

I personally don't think we'll lack on the offensive side due to how there's intentionally less gearing options to make defense weaker

[red obsidian]

For OS sure, could be interesting for T10 gear for Top level pvp

[clever scroll]

So, people say "I want more cool items to make builds and that the hype gets down", but they don't know what they want??

[red obsidian]

I didn't say that... I'm just throwing spaghetti at the wall

[clever scroll]

OS without passives is great because the others T9 or any tier can compete with their passives(and accessories and amitys), but the t7 and t9 othersoul are pretty weak right now

[supple violet]

Here's what I say: Let me pick an singular class passive for the OS.

That isn't... Mystic...

Actually maybe Mystic Feather wouldn't be too bad, stun dart.

[clever scroll]

Stun immunity

[supple violet]

Freeze

[clever scroll]

Freeze immunity too

[supple violet]

Sleep

[clever scroll]

We can get that too, in a T5 OtherSoul

[supple violet]

Can't immune all 3 without accessory slots

lol

[clever scroll]

You can

[supple violet]

I would like to see this combo

[clever scroll]

Hel's Garb, Mystic Katar, imona's slippers

[vital bolt]

Top of my head for a t8/9 OS. Bedsheet / Fey Yeti Coat / Yggdrasil legs

[clever scroll]

You can get those immunities in T5

[red obsidian]

Blight, blind

Paralyze

[supple violet]

Well then my initial suggestion stands

[clever scroll]

Hel's Garb prevents stun and blind, mystic katar prevents paralyze, blight doesn't interfere with mystic feather

[vital bolt]

weren't we just talking about mystic feather counters?

[supple violet]

Hunting for the only 5 counters

[red obsidian]

Oh yeah... LOL

Is Paralyze another?

[supple violet]

no

[clever scroll]

What's your initial suggestion?

[supple violet]

Every OTHER class passive but Mystic Feather

[clever scroll]

No

[supple violet]

lol

Why not

If you had just one class passive from the classes below it's not THAT bad.

||No apex either||

[clever scroll]

Players should have and advantage over Othersouls

[supple violet]

We have 2-4 class passives

And specs

and the spec skills

[clever scroll]

We can get godforge items easy for any tier, new players can't do that

[karmic nymph]

it would be nice to be able to do pet builds on othersouls though

summoners, uh... maybe not so much... glares at buggane

[supple violet]

The funniest part of a low tier godforge: Absolutely nothing can be done to stop this.

[supple violet]

Aight toss summoner too LOL

There's no redlines at t9 and below, so the only real issues are Recharge, Mystic Feather, Apex, and anything that has to do with summoner at all

Other than that, we should be allowed one class passive on an OS for build variation

[rapid fossil]

Petition to change the weakest one to Conqueror Kevin.

Seriously. Please.

[rapid fossil]

The T3 ones are absurdly weak, yes.

[clever scroll]

How are the lower tier players going to defeat us then??? OtherSouls are made so that you can compete in lower tiers without having too much of an advantage, they are not made for long battles.

[karmic nymph]

Would a single class passive be that impactful?

I mean

summoner maybe

[crisp condor]

I do have some written down somewhere but I might overflow this chat with them if I just copy-paste

[karmic nymph]

But I don't think adding mana saver or pet AI to an othersoul would be broken or anything

[crisp condor]

Maybe I should DM you and choose to post only the ones that we both like

[clever scroll]

Othersouls dont have mana btw

[karmic nymph]

Ah didn't notice

[supple violet]

How are they meant to defeat us anywho?

Have you seen some of the stats people put out?

[clever scroll]

I didn't understand that

[supple violet]

We have godforged gear

[clever scroll]

Oh, but we don't have passives with othersouls, and low hp

[supple violet]

But we have insane defensive stats

[clever scroll]

Also, your justification is that if they can't beat us with what we have, it doesn't matter if we get passives too?

[supple violet]

I'm just saying your "smaller people can't defeat us if we can use an passive" is rather pointless. So I guess yeah.

[clever scroll]

maybe you're right, which means we should nerf the Othersouls more

[supple violet]

And I would be fine with this

It's already been noted that the Conquestadors are already overtuned lol

[clever scroll]

Yes, I think they can beat us, especially in T3, and a little in T5 because there are people who don't know how to get a good set of DoT immunities. In T7 and T9 it will possibly be more complicated, but that would explain the low HP. So in summary, everything is perfect(??, I don't know, we would need to test that)

But in short, you got an argument against your request to get passives

[supple violet]

It balances out towards t7

A better geared player in t3 and t5 will always zero out attacks of the people around them

And this is just how it is

[clever scroll]

I don't think so, a T3 godforge doesn't have a lot of stats, in a T7 you get a good amount of stats in godforge, the T9 is way worse

[supple violet]

The equipment system as IS, is very new player unfriendly

[supple violet]

I don't think you've played a lot of t3 then...

[clever scroll]

I did, lunge is the best skill

[supple violet]

And it still can get zeroed by high ornate level 10 gear

[clever scroll]

I'll have to try that, but I'm sure T3 is more balanced than T7 and T9, maybe reducing 100 HP would be good.

[supple violet]

HAHAHAH

No, no.

Trust me, t3 is not balanced at all

And I don't think it ever will be

It's a rather funny exponential curve for tiers

If you get good gear in t1-4, you're SET for those tiers

[clever scroll]

But back to the point, instead of looking to get passives in the othersouls that would give us even more advantage against a new player, we should look for balance

[supple violet]

If you get good gear in t5-8 it's handy but otherwise just exists, you need it to survive and it's weak

t10 is "Specialize your equipment finally"

[clever scroll]

Nvm, I remember now, the T3 would'nt even even upgrade their equipment

[supple violet]

t7 and t9 othersouls will be rather easier to defeat, t3 and t5 will be chaotic

[supple violet]

lol.

They don't in t5 either

[clever scroll]

So maybe we need a penalty in T3 and T5 othersouls

[supple violet]

Its unlikely to fix anything, you can make all the stats for t3 0 and gear will still supplement enough stats to obliterate

Its just a flaw on how the equipment system works

And it only occurs on the first sets of tiers, which are left the fastest

||well, the first main tier, t3 is fast||

[opaque glade]

Gear stats won't get t3 OS's any immunities

[supple violet]

Poison is indeed the insidious killer

[clever scroll]

I am more in favor of making othersouls glass canons, since the new system gives more rewards for settlements where there is more activity, it makes no sense to want to stay like the crown (with othersouls of course) in lower tiers.

[supple violet]

I am not

[rapid fossil]

Which can be dodged with status effects if someone is really trying. And the only one it has even a chance of being a problem in is the two lowest leagues. Especially in T9 and maybe the T7 guild, I feel like those will have an easy time, even if the HP gets balanced out.

[supple violet]

That's exactly what I have said lol

[rapid fossil]

Do not force everyone into glass canons, please.

[supple violet]

Lets not go glass cannon

[rapid fossil]

I must have missed that, my apologies.

[rapid fossil]

Let me add grammar to make sure it wasn't misunderstood.

[supple violet]

lol

[clever scroll]

The DoT thing makes sense, but you forgot something, T3 and T5 don't know anything else but attack we have an abysmal advantage

Although, that advantage does make sense so it can't be taken away.

[karmic nymph]

Nah you underestimate T5s

[supple violet]

I will continue to do so lol

[karmic nymph]

I figured out how to take territories from the T11 on my OT in T6 with dot

[clever scroll]

T5 maybe, T3 no

[supple violet]

I will not be responding to this in any other way other than "How long ago was this"

[rapid fossil]

As a T3, I was taking stuff from a T8 with DOT. Just because not everyone does it at this time, doesn't mean we should act like it doesn't exist and give people status effects and a big advantage.

[karmic nymph]

Last september I think

[supple violet]

So we can only pray people have enough rememberance

[opaque glade]

Poison, burn, freeze, paralyze, rot, sleep, bleed, blind I believe cannot be immuned at t3. And all are available to be used that early

[supple violet]

Either way, I still don't think an singular class passive is a bad idea

[clever scroll]

Funny that stun is not on the list

[supple violet]

Stun can be immuned at t3, just not by OS

[opaque glade]

I said that cannot be immuned at t3

[clever scroll]

Aldon hat

[supple violet]

I have literally never used that

Huh

[clever scroll]

[rapid fossil]

Also, I think a big misconception is that it's not godforged gear that is the big decider. The difference between godforged and level 10 gear in T3 is ... 15 def/res in most cases? On all three gear pieces that's 45. If someone doesn't get a weapon to combat that when they're in T2/3, they'll probably get it shortly after.

[warm wigeon]

We are definitely overanalyzing this early in the stages for Conq guild. Might be a better suited discussion for when it hits public beta after a week or so

Once we have some serious testing and after the current tweaks list

[clever scroll]

That's true

[warm wigeon]

While I have your attention though, do you have any input for this compiled list of feedback?
#1275487953480712324 message
@opaque glade @clever scroll @supple violet @rapid fossil ?

Anything to add. Trying to keep this streamlined

[supple violet]

Class Passive (an singular)
Unique scroll I disagree with
Always a good idea
So... Cataphract?

[rapid fossil]

Let me think about it. Thanks for asking!

[warm wigeon]

The scroll is just an idea of something to add to the shop. Id focus more on 'adding to the shop' than the specifics

NF will do as they do on specifics

[warm wigeon]

Class passive?

[supple violet]

This is unlikely unless they finally upgrade t3 gear months down the road. Again though, Poison, Burn, and Rot all exist.

[supple violet]

yeah like Arcane Mastery on euhhhhhh... The one dude

Arcanic

Like... An singular.

[warm wigeon]

Oh like one singular passive per othersoul?

[supple violet]

yes

[warm wigeon]

Unlockable in the shop

And different othersouls per tier to choose

?

[clever scroll]

Avidity 3 in a T3 Othersoul

[supple violet]

I'd be fine with this lol

[supple violet]

Avidity 3 is t10 though lol

[warm wigeon]

Itd be a realistic but impactful passive for each

[supple violet]

Avidity is the only thing accessable from Shadowmancy that's handy at t5, else Critical Hits

[opaque glade]

Personally I'd like one of the pets as magic based, in regards to the pet variety. Imo, othersouls don't really need passives, opinion pending change upon actually playing against other players in live. Also don't want an even better warden spec personally. Everything else seems fine to me, and thats just my opinion on em

[supple violet]

Like, Weaved Elements is RIGHT THERE

That would be COOL to see some actual build stuff go into

Mana Siphon

like

[warm wigeon]

Imagine a -different- warden

Instead of a stronger warden

[karmic nymph]

Daily reset time instead of 23 hour timer

[opaque glade]

Status menu idea was the only thing I noticed with the time I played

[karmic nymph]

for collecting rewards

[supple violet]

We have a LOT of Class Passives that add nothing to OS

Like, yeah I understand not giving it a class but an singular passive would be neat

[warm wigeon]

Added to the warden t9 spec idea so as to not make anything stronger

Again the shop purchaseables are just ideas for the overarching feedback of expanding the shop

[opaque glade]

Different maybe. From my experience, warden pvp is enough of a pita that I def don't want a stronger one 😂

[warm wigeon]

Yes agree 1000%

Like not looking for a BoF spec to add to swash

Way too OP

Just a -different- area control boost spec for t9

[warm wigeon]

Added

Ping me if you have more feedback that you think should be added

[clever scroll]

My answer is too long

[warm wigeon]

Break it up lol

Note we cant have 10000 things on the list. Maybe pick some major points of feedback

[remote onyx]

My alternate suggestion for collecting rewards is to just make it automatic at 00h local, just like with the current system

(Yes, I’m lazy )

[warm wigeon]

But if you roll 1000 areas in a run like some people then you couldnt cash those in right away and might lose them by the time 00h rolls around. That would probably be the argument against it

[remote onyx]

That’s fair

[supple violet]

make the button reset ar 00h

but allow them to press it any time of the day

This is something I've wanted to see for ages

[karmic nymph]

this is also what I want

[supple violet]

Like

yes you can get two back to back rolls

so?

[warm wigeon]

Shouldnt matter its the same over long term yeah

[supple violet]

exactly

[warm wigeon]

Could be cool to strategically run endless around 00h and time your two shrine drops

[supple violet]

lol

[warm wigeon]

Waiting for this @clever scroll bomb to drop

[rapid fossil]

So I can't have 100% instead of 25%? ):

Oh, @warm wigeon, add concerns about Material Equalizer to the list. There's a lot of history about it here and in https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1271132843094839408.

It's been somewhat addressed, but it's still part of the conversation.

[warm wigeon]

Could you summarize for me to copy pasta into the compiled post

I remember the chatter but some consensus summary would be great

[rapid fossil]

Some say Material Equalizer's existing at all is a way to tip the scales too much in the attacker's favor if they have low ascensions, others say the proof cost will justify it, others say it's justified regardless of whether or not the cost is high enough to be less desirable.

The dev's stance on it so far is the cooldown + cost will keep players from using it in routinely contested areas and will be a tradeoff because they can't afford other ramparts if they buy it with any regularity.

[rapid fossil]

Well, I forgot to put it into copypaste format.

[warm wigeon]

Ill add it in a bit haha

[rapid fossil]

I made it a bit more copypaste friendly.

[clever scroll]

Great Oslo:

Buff Rate:10%/ Spell Rate: 20%/ Protect Chance:5%

Skill:
-Bear's Might
-Tempering Strike II
-CrownFeller II
-Wallop(added)
-Ward of Ortanite

Bestial Bond(I don't know , maybe Area Offense instead of Area Defense)

Great Amarok:

Buff Rate:20%/ Spell Rate:10%/ Protect Chance:5%

Skills:
-Inquest(there was something else here but I realized it's my idea for the rework of Realmshift, it was a buff called "Wolf Hunt")
-Tempering Strike II
-CrownFeller II
-Cleave
-Ward of Ortanite
Bestial Bond: Area Defense

New Spec T9: Conqueror
Spec stats:+5% Att +5%Mag +7% Def +7%Res

Passives:
-The Conqueror: You have a 25% stat increase when attacking settlements

-Pride of Conqueror: You deal more damage when attacking multiple opponents, additionally skills or spells have a greater chance of attacking multiple opponents.

+30% Multi-Target chance(not the same as chain dmg)(+30% chance of Multi-Target to semi-AoE skills(Ara Vesta II/Chained Shield/Storming Tempest/Cleave too please ))
+25% Multi-Target Dmg

Skills: well the only thing that comes to my mind is sweep II

Apart of that;
-increase the cap of the shrines to 3 hours max
-Add galar and myrkheim hammer to the pool of items
-Add Kingdom Orns as reward with a cap of 100 per day

Although the only thing that makes sense from what I've written is that the conquerors spec should give stats when attacking settlements, not when defending them.

[supple violet]

not wallop

[clever scroll]

Why it's an offensive pet

[warm wigeon]

I like all of the ideas

Trying to keep the feedback post high level and not super detailed

NF usually handles the details

[warm wigeon]

I ran out of characters so summarized it even more

But noted

Why are ALs always the most polarizing debate

[supple violet]

Because they're the only thing that makes 2 classes good

And are just kind of annoying.

not being able to catch up to people with 100 ALs is dumb

[warm wigeon]

I dont disagree haha but we can argue that for weeks in a separate thread

[supple violet]

And because the people who already have them like them

It's a big contention point

[warm wigeon]

#1275487953480712324 message
Latest compilation. Can be found in pins.

[unreal lily]

Great summary 🙏

[warm wigeon]

Thanks Fux 💯

[pulsar spear]

I think Odie addressed the Polarizing debate pretty well about the Material Equalizer but people are unwilling to listen to it and keep bringing it back up. I think Odie summed it up best here #1275487953480712324 message

[warm wigeon]

Perfect. Thanks!

Will add link to that in summary

[pulsar spear]

woohoo I did a thing 🙂

Also did they change it? 23 Hour Cd not 24 hour - maybe a little off on that?

now I am not 100% sure will check tomorrow

[rapid fossil]

Regardless of whether it's been addressed or not, it still warrants it being brought up, and that's not refusing to listen. For example, I had mentioned that, given the manner in which the cost (as far as I understand it now) scales with crowns owned, one who just had many spots taken could exploit its temporarily cheap price by not taking back the Othersoul spots before they go for the top crown, using the equalizer every two hours at a very cheap cost. Things like this are worth bringing up regardless of whether or not the item itself has been addressed, because anytime you give players a tool designed to give them a foot, they'll take it a mile. Whether that's considered "too unlikely" or not, you need a devil's advocate in these kinds of topics.

Translated to "give players a tool designed to give them about .3 meters, they'll take it 1.6km"

For my metric pals.

/s

[pulsar spear]

I feel it is ignoring what was said about the tool itself. What you are addressing is different than what was linked. You are addressing an possible exploit of the tool and not the existence of the tool itself.

It's also only theory right? Which we would need to test. It should be tested though

[rapid fossil]

The scaling cost has been tested already, if that's what you mean.

[pulsar spear]

Have you used an equalizer and gone against a live opponent? Have you seen what else they lose when that is active?

[rapid fossil]

"What else they lose"?

[pulsar spear]

There are so many unkowns about this that should be tested before we jump to the omg disable AL bad

Yes they lose the ability to use ramparts, to use the stat buffs - their territories are able to be attacked with them being AL 0

Has anyone tested to see if its a static 2h cd or if it increase after each use in a day?

[rapid fossil]

As far as I've been told, it does not disable ascensions when you're defending. You also don't lose the ability to use stat buffs in your ramparts, you're just using tokens on the Equalizer that you could have used on the ramparts.

[pulsar spear]

30 minute use and 2 hour cd where they lose ramparts and buffs for it

Odie said it disables buffs

I don't know about the AL defense, no one does it's not clearly worded

[rapid fossil]

He also said that it didn't, then 🤷

[pulsar spear]

It also appears to not even work at all currently

[tepid zodiac]

If you give an OS a follower derived from a consumable, are you then able to use that item to acquire another follower ?

[pulsar spear]

ooo yes I believe so - because that follower is gone from the castle

[pulsar spear]

Again they aren't even working

I just used one

and attacked my main

it's stil full AL on it

and whooped my sandbox

[rapid fossil]

Them not currently working doesn't have much to do with how it's supposed to work when it is /:

[pulsar spear]

I am saying you can't test it

So we are complaining purely on theory

and words

and we know that words literally don't say what they mean like the crownship proofs

saying they are given period, instead of a chance or a cap

[rapid fossil]

This isn't about something you can test. I'm saying that the developer of it stated that it does not disable any other rampart, it gets in the way of your budget of other rampart purchases.

As in, that's the way it is intended to function.

[pulsar spear]

Ah may have just been lag too - because now the thing is working and it took off my al

[rapid fossil]

Ahhh all right

[pulsar spear]

That one focal point is besides my other points though

let me try to test the one I can here real quick

[jolly sable]

Oh wait it does work?

Last I tried it didn't, I even bug reported it

[pulsar spear]

Yeah it's working now it was like a 5 minute lag

[jolly sable]

So it's just a delay thing?

[pulsar spear]

I will show you a screenshot in a seck trying to get a buff up

Timer not even going down it

I have 37 AL on the mirror currently

My sandbox didn't have any crownships to try on

I will try ascending it though and see if theirs is gone

erm if I can win 😦

[clever scroll]

Are the crown crownguards working in alpha??

[pulsar spear]

So of someone takes your spot you can't go take it back? It's on a CD?

That means 2h hour CD - that's a little concerning but blocks alt farming them so it makes sense

Ok confirmed your AL doesn't go down on Defense

Crown Crownguard working? The buff?

There is a delay but it comes up

if you mean Settler's Crownguard

Not sure how much added power it gives when defending

[clever scroll]

Jajaja, it works very well, the settler one at least

The emperor crownguard failed for me I think

[pulsar spear]

yeah it made it harder to kill my Mirror with the sandbox but I just don't know the details

trying to get sandbox boy up to level 2 to see if he can use crown while using the equalizer

i'm getting 0 xp though from Dueling

or SAS as we are so determined to call it

[clever scroll]

Can't you set your mirror with 1 single skill, no buffs, and see how much dmg it does before and after a crownguard??

[clever scroll]

Eh, you get like 5K crownguards in the sandbox

[pulsar spear]

oh good point

So you can wear both the equalizer and settlers crownguard so there is that

[rapid fossil]

I'll more directly address one of the main focal points then, I guess.
Whether the justification to come out and say "omg disable AL bad" is there will likely primarily depend on how good all three crownguards at once are. Those of us controlling tons of territory know that once someone gets to (depending on the class) maybe a third of your ascension level, they start having an easier time taking from you. So, if using all 3 crownguards is the equivalent of the boost that the territory influence bar gives you, it'll be an extremely easy fight. You can easily predict it without testing it because, outside of the factor boosting that boosts Emperor's/Duke's stats, the the settlement/territory fight functions exactly the same. Thus, we should be vocal about possible exploitations because those of us that are going to have it used on us will be getting the very short end of a stick.

Succinctly: If the Crownguards are more powerful than Influence, we can't know how well it will go, but it won't be as bad as we think.
If the crownguards are equally or less powerful than influence, we can make a quality prediction without thorough testing that possible exploitations will utterly shaft powerful players and "omg disable AL bad" is justifiable to say.

An aside, I'm like AL 40. I'm not even high up there.

[pulsar spear]

I think though that we are worring about prices that haven't been set to what is even going to go into the open beta

[clever scroll]

Crownguards are just for defense btw

[pulsar spear]

Right

but there is 3 and they stack

how much yet to test

[clever scroll]

Maybe 5% per crownguard

[pulsar spear]

I would like to believe if Odie says there will be a viable tradeoff, then we shold expect a real tradeoff

I don't think we can test that right now - I also agree that they need to worry about and address possible abuse ahead of time

Having a change in mindset of AL not being the end all be all and more of a utility as Odie states gives a better viewpoint - again just my opinion I am only AL 45 ish now myself

There needs to be a balance between level of engagement, reward for past effort and challenge for current efforts. Holding onto the good 'ol glory days, or the "back in my day" type of attitude can't be healthy for the community as a whole. We also can't have the other side of the spectrum and have a "move over gramps" attitude either.

[rapid fossil]

This is true, which is the primary reason I bring it up. When a studio listens, you have the chance to highlight issues they might not have thought of while it's evolving and getting worked on. To avoid getting shafted myself, I'll happily bring it up when any possible exploits or unthought of issues can be killed ahead of time. I thought of one situational exploit in about five minutes, and other players will too when there's someone everywhere who wants any easy way to get me out of settlements that are far away from my home.

[rapid fossil]

Well, each one has different stat boosts apparently ^~^

[clever scroll]

From 43k ward to 73k ward, im going to do the maths later

With the 3 crownguards

[pulsar spear]

One possible situational exploit -for me this is like CVE's that come out for systems. They can be marked as a critical and need to be remediated immediately until you then read they have haven't even reproduced the bug and its only in theory.

[rapid fossil]

Did the beta give you the crownguards when you started?

[clever scroll]

In sandbox yes

[pulsar spear]

With a sandbox yeah

5k of each

[rapid fossil]

I figured

[pulsar spear]

I totally forgot about it playing our mirrors lol

[clever scroll]

A bit low

[rapid fossil]

A bit low.

The current system looks to be about 50%, though. 103k ward to 144k, give or take the variance factor. The three crownguards looks more like 60%, actually.

If ward is a direct correlation to the stat percentage boost

[clever scroll]

10% 15% and 20% maybe? If is multiplicative

[rapid fossil]

Oh well of course. It's accepted that the competition in this system will be much higher and you won't hold onto as much. That's why ME isn't the end of the world, but long distance settlement play won't be worth it if it's too easy to get. Which I trust it will be addressed if it's too easy to get, because that's the vision for it. Exploits are just harder to predict.

Maybe 10, 20, 30 if they are 60 combined.

I would have liked to see a little more than 60, considering that if you're not monitoring 3 crownships at all times, you get no boosts, but we'll see if 60% sticks.

[pulsar spear]

(hp + mp ) / 2 x ward bonuses from gear so the buff itself may be like ~40% to stats

Took me forever to reverse it and my math is probably wrong

Starting ward: 103,000 = (hp + mp) / 2 × 1 (assuming no initial bonuses)
Ending ward: 144,000 = (hp + mp) / 2 × (1 + x), where x is the total bonus from the 3 buffs
Step 2: Set up an equation using the ratio of ending ward to starting ward.
144,000 / 103,000 = (1 + x) / 1
Step 3: Simplify the ratio.
1.3980582524 = 1 + x
Step 4: Solve for x.
x = 1.3980582524 - 1
x = 0.3980582524
Step 5: Convert to a percentage.
0.3980582524 × 100 = 39.81%

[rapid fossil]

It's too late for me to reliably check your work (x I'll trust you for now

Oh something to note it's that I did that in Orna, not the beta. I was talking about the Influence buff.

[supple violet]

so basically 4-

[warm wigeon]

Tldr concerns about the balancing of the shop purchaseable buffs?

[supple violet]

yes

[warm wigeon]

Added

[pulsar spear]

Other than my questions about mechanics I think that you have addressed all the concerns I can think of. I know that my questions may not be answerable easily so last time I bring them up until release at least 😄

[crisp condor]

With the introduction of Conquest Guild and OS not having passives.. I feel like it's the perfect time to introduce more items that have their own abilities or passives
Maybe something like these:
"if the enemy is frozen and on fire, deal massive dmg to them"
"When your pet acts there is a chance that it will use a spell from the opponent's follower/loadout"
"Failing to cast a spell damages both participants of the duel" (maybe some items that increase the fail chance)
"If the enemy uses the same action 2 times in a row, 3rd time counter it and cast it yourself (will not skip your turn)"
"You don't lose your crit chain if you don't crit for a turn, but you lose a huge amount of mana"
"There is a chance the collateral dmg you will do to yourself will instead heal you"
"If the user doesn't have a follower equipped at the start of the battle, equip a random one of their tier"
"Sacrifice 3 random spells from your loadout to create a random "ultimate" skill from raids"
"While equipt, your offhand ability gets upgraded by 1 lvl"
"Debuffs and buffs will not last more than 2 turns on yourself ("perma" buffs are included)"
"Your mana and health get combined into a single "HMP"(health-mana-points) bar but you use it as a resource for your spells"
"You have a chance to call for reinforcements when you are under 30% hp, calling for one of your lower tier OS"
"Hits while using this weapon might make the enemy unable to buff themselves"
"Kill one of your summons to deal a % of its health to everything on the battlefield, including yourself"
"At the start of the battle, summon a barricade that has a higher chance to take agro, for each hit tanked by it you get debuffed"
"Force your follower and the opponent's one to fight, the winner gives their owner extra orns at the end of the battle. Valhallians are immune to this since they swore to respect their followers/pets"

Yes I am that nerd that played hearthstone, got the high ranks using meta and the switched to whatever build I could make.. to terrorise the others

[rapid fossil]

More passive gear is a good idea, but that would cut both ways. OS would still be behind because they have a gateway to more passives, but their opponents have access to their normal passives and all the ones the OS do

[crisp condor]

It is ok for them to be behind

Maybe not by much

But I feel like more items with interesting passives would help with the variety of builds

Even for players, not only OS

[orchid meadow]

The ideas are cool!
At this stage more looking for feedback on the mechanics in the beta, rather than additional things to add at a later date :)

[vast fox]

Interesting how gear can have higher tier adorns while only the gear is limited

Can the lower tiers have AL too?

[pulsar spear]

They can't have AL don't think there would be a way to AL them up. Odie mentioned addressing the adorns and believe that is going to be adjusted.

[remote onyx]

Odie has stated this will likely change

[vast fox]

ah ok

[remote onyx]

Just wanted to say it’s been great reading so many good discussions, I’m glad a PvP feature has the community so hyped. Can’t wait to join you guys as soon as Apple gets off their lazy butts

[vast fox]

Seems like the new system will reward less mats, and places will flip a lot more frequently with npc attackers

[remote onyx]

Less mats? From what I’ve seen there’s a ton more mats to be gained compared to the current system

[vast fox]

I tested with 1 and gave me 4 mats and 2 others near me don't even offer mats

plus need to have enough xp to lvl to get the reward daily

[clever scroll]

??

[vast fox]

oh my bad thought that was a lvl up button. the reward collection is manual I see

material equalization man I don't like that X.X

(I'm 80 AL XD)

[pulsar spear]

You don't like the idea of it, go read up through all the things said about it

[vast fox]

where?

[pulsar spear]

Especially what Odie said in the pins

In this chat there has been a ton of discussion about it already

[jolly sable]

One settlement gave you 4 mats per day. An area may give you 1 material per month. And much like settlements, areas didn't always have materials. They also had items and gold/orns

I don't see how that could ever be a reduction, that's nearly x240 more materials

[vast fox]

Assuming you can actively hold a lot of settlements that offer mats

Sounds like they'll flip a lot more often that the old ones

with npc attackers

[pulsar spear]

NPC attackers are only near your OT and personally I have yet to see any

[vast fox]

oh

Interesting

[warm wigeon]

The high ALs tend not to like the feature, the low ALs do. Read odies message in pins. ALs have no counterplay. Material Equalizer gives one method at an expense

[crisp condor]

Will keep it in mind! I didn't think of it but it actually makes sense. Hope we will get an "Item Rework" update this autumn 🍁

I don't know how the Canada symbol got there

[vast fox]

I was a tier 8 taking down tier 10s with ALs. It's possible to counter

[warm wigeon]

I can think of a million reasons why that was possible for you, but not one of them is counterplay

[eager perch]

Can there be a “offer of strength” If I get a notification that someone is taking over a bunch of my settlements. Can and Item I buy reinforce my ALs. I am happy if someone wants to buy and get a few. I am not happy to lose 100 cause of the way the no AL meta is. Think of pogo where you can golden berry a pokemon that is getting attacked at a gym

[pulsar spear]

You can use 3 defensive buffing items

[eager perch]

But none of them reactivate my als?

[pulsar spear]

Stat wise so far it's looking 40% increase in stats and you have defensive amities plus a pet that can increase that percent

[eager perch]

But none of them reactivate my als?

[serene dirge]

Gilga Ursa + Warden + Area Defense Amity + Bestial Bond Amity + Great Amarok + Ramparts

[eager perch]

Ultima

Gsa

GSH

At no al these systems are dominant ^

[pulsar spear]

All things that AL doesn't matter against no?

[serene dirge]

the above will give you 50-100 ALs worth of defensive stats. if that's not enough for well optimized one shot builds, ALs may not be saving you anyway

[crisp condor]

Oracle with 2 of these

[pulsar spear]

I iwsh I had that ty vm

[crisp condor]

I wanted o reply to this

[pulsar spear]

I just have this weird one

[eager perch]

Maybe I need to get my hands dirty with the beta once apple get through the update to test it.

But I would like to note that ALs would always help in the scenarios given.

[jolly sable]

If all of those combined cannot make an offensive, ohko build have a harder time, then it's the to rethink the offensive tools players have access to

Which is already going to get revisited

[serene dirge]

this is the real deal

• Great Amarok/Oslo

[jolly sable]

Oh that is a good one

[pulsar spear]

Yup that is what I am going to do

[eager perch]

I think that it is important to note that the ones with an amnity like this are already the highly ascended and are very lucky

[crisp condor]

I have something prepared for my defense

[jolly sable]

Celestial weapons / augments are getting a revisit Soon™️, and they're the main offenders of oneshotting.
Blood Pact is very strong, but it mainly scales with ascensions

[pulsar spear]

Yeah I am trepid at best for the revisit heh

[jolly sable]

Might need to google that adjective

[eager perch]

To be frank pvp has been the bottom of the list for balance in a long time. The common answer has been and will be ALs going forward

Soon tm is cope

[crisp condor]

John, give me a weapon that deals no dmg compared to the big guys but goes through ward with 85% of the dmg dealt to that opponent

[pulsar spear]

quaking, trembling? don't see issue there

[jolly sable]

I don't even understand what you're asking me

[jolly sable]

I was speaking for myself, not for you haha

[pulsar spear]

OH hah

[crisp condor]

🪿

[pulsar spear]

It means apprehensive, fearful

I have some excitement and some worry

To go from a God at something to then be just ok or struggling isn't always fun

[jolly sable]

You better. They should be hit somewhat hard. Celestials have dominated for too long.
But this is the wrong time and place to talk about that

[eager perch]

Looks like we are moving on. But I would like some item that can reinstall my ALs. It can be costly

[red obsidian]

Has anybody done the math for what % bonus the Crownguards give yet?

[jolly sable]

The ramparts, as Odie said, give you AL-Equivalent boosts, which cannot be turned off by the equaliser

[pulsar spear]

all 3 seem to give about 40% stats

[pulsar spear]

This maths is going off the ward gain going from 103 to 144k

[jolly sable]

Having ~40ALs on someone with 0ALs is already a huge bump

[pulsar spear]

It 0's out both attacker and defender al and you pop 3 crowns and git back 40 al worth of stats

and I am not sure how much the other thigns give but its pretty high

[jolly sable]

Which they can't personally buy to get 40 over you either*

[rapid fossil]

That was in Orna, not Beta

[eager perch]

I seem to be getting nowhere with my communication with you. I understand that there is ramparts in the game.

I understand meta pvp defense builds.

What I would like to push forward is an item I can buy as a defender to replace my als for a time.

[red obsidian]

Honestly between the options for territory control bonus stats and Crownguards....even additive that's like 90ALs even if equalized....

[pulsar spear]

? it was popping 3 crownguards they aren't in Orna?

I will do it again when all 3 are expired

the Emp one lasts 24 hours

[rapid fossil]

At least from what I could tell, all three ramparts were a higher boost than the influence meter gives you. Not by a whole lot, though. So it's not a tremendously advantageous thing vs what we had before, but it does look better.

[vast fox]

Depends on your definition of counterplay, but I did need to make a specific build to counter it.

[jolly sable]

An item that does nothing except for undo other's purchases?
Like the kingdom's anti-hex blessing?

[rapid fossil]

No, I tested it in live Orna on territory defense so it could be compared with the person that posted their before-and-after with the Crownguards

[red obsidian]

So 90ALs of difference in counterplay being available isn't enough?

[eager perch]

Yes

[pulsar spear]

I am not sure how you tested their before and after of crownguards in live when they aren't in live...

[rapid fossil]

I will say, if someone uses it on me, I hope they do it while I'm available because I'll switch to some kind of (hopefully) one-hit ko build.

[jolly sable]

Gotcha. Can't say I like the idea, but putting it forward doesn't hurt.

[pulsar spear]

Again I will fully retest it

actually I will go ahead adn do it now with another sandbox

[rapid fossil]

No, someone else tested Crownguards. I tested it in live Orna on territory defense to compare it.

[eager perch]

Please explain 😃

[red obsidian]

Guess I have to go buy GUrsa then

[pulsar spear]

I am not sure what that has to do at all with any of my statement? Super confused, the test in Beta with crownguards went from 103k to 144k or was that from influence and the other person didn't post anything?

There was a lot going on

[rapid fossil]

Jaoks handled the Crownguard teating. Their ward went from 43k to 73k

[pulsar spear]

also unironically I think buffs are pausing when we log off right now

I just logged in and have 16 minutes still on my equalizer

[eager perch]

This is prodominantly why I think having an item where I can reinstall my defensive als is important

Everyone that cares about pvp will be funneled into one class

[pulsar spear]

right so my 40% was off that is almost 60% increase

[rapid fossil]

I never tested the Crownguards, that's the relevance. I'm telling you that so you can relabel the data you made. I tested the territory influence meter in the main game so we could compare it to Jaoks's testing of the Crownguards in the beta.

[eager perch]

Until the meta shifts and then a different class. Without ALs the meta is very defined as a def/aggressive set up. But with Als I think there is a better diversity in the meta.

[pulsar spear]

Are buffs meant to pause when we log off now?

[eager perch]

While it is important to have counter builds, it is also important to not have one system built

[rapid fossil]

So here, where it says "the test in Beta with Crownguards went from 103k to 144k" should read "the test in live Orna with the territory control influence meter went from 103k to 144k".

[pulsar spear]

Yes and the test for crownguards was 43 to 73

Thasnk for the correction and for keeping me honest

[red obsidian]

Okay... If the Crownguards are a 60% increase... Thats potentially 110AL equivalent that can't be removed for defenders... And even without GUrsa class bonus that's huge

[rapid fossil]

Perfecto! :D

[rapid fossil]

You're welcome! Also, I'm going to use "correctino" from now on xD

[pulsar spear]

Lots of different points we have been testing together I love it

[red obsidian]

I see enough counterplay potential... Idk

[jolly sable]

I'm not fond of the idea of an item that has a niche effect like that, which in the best case scenario "unpurchases" someone else's proof purchase, but realistically, it will just do.. nothing.
How do you know that whoever is taking your areas is nullifying your ascensions? Are you going to pop one of those any time you start losing settlements?
What about the person who bought ascension nullification? Will they now be at AL0 while you're at max AL, making it harder than it was to begin with?
And what if they weren't nullifying your ascensions, and you just dumped a bunch of currency to do literally nothing?

But yknow, this is personal opinion, and not objective opinion

[pulsar spear]

I could argue that equalizers are in fact adding another system #1275487953480712324 message

[jolly sable]

hence "I don't like it" instead of "It's not a good idea"

[red obsidian]

Honestly this almost makes the idea of gear that increases damage on Territory offense a more interesting idea too

[pulsar spear]

There is a pet for that

[red obsidian]

Konquerers guild raid when?

[lean swift]

is me

[crisp condor]

Make boss settlements where you fight the devs for it

[red obsidian]

Super small chance of dropping unfelled Konqord

[crisp condor]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-belly-drum-smacking-gif-23335986

[rapid fossil]

If I may make a devil's advocate suggestion that doesn't fully reflect my own opinions... What if the Material Equalizer cut each player's Ascensions by a percentage? If each player loses 50% it narrows the power gap a lot (because one player loses more than the other) while not being an "unfair", "this person loses 100% ... which is 10 and this person loses 100%, which is 120." One person now has 5, the other person has 60. The gap is now 55 instead of 110.

I don't suggest this because I don't like the way the devs have justified The Equalizer in its current state or anything. Just a potential compromise that people can contemplate.

[pulsar spear]

To be the other side advocate on this. The person that paid is still penalized with a 2 hour CD and loss of crowns to do the thing while the defender won't necessarily feel the need to invest at all in defense.

[rapid fossil]

Can you elaborate further on that last statement?

[pulsar spear]

If there is a 55 level gap between you and the attacker you are less likely going to use defensive measures against them

[red obsidian]

So even if the territory defense bonuses and the crownguard buffs are additive and not multiplicative, if you had all those, and 100ALs, that could be 210ALs worth of defense... The equalizer would make it 110ALs, this proposal would make it 160ALs

[rapid fossil]

55 AL gap, not level gap. You still very much have to use defensive measures on somebody who is 55 ascensions away from you.

[pulsar spear]

I think the problem with most viewpoints that are anti the equalizer is that in a vacumn feels like a loss of say 100% stat boosts - it isn't taking into account any defensive measures at all that can greatly increase defense at an expanse as well. If the Equalizer wasn't in play AND you could use all these defenses it would basically render opposition to a territory null

[red obsidian]

We can see in other parts of the game how multipliers can really get numbers to go crazy, and an option to remove 1 multiplier from a player for 30 minutes every 2 hours that's very cost prohibitive doesn't seem too crazy

[rapid fossil]

The crownguards aren't literal ascensions, and they certainly do not give 110 percent

[pulsar spear]

I think the price should increase at base and scale up for every territory you take (not own) during that 30 minutes

So if you have ~60% stat increase on top of 55 AL what would that equate to in ascensions? Lets say 1000 HP 1000 MP and 2000 Ward for use in the equation. 60% stat increase would be before or after the AL was applied?

[rapid fossil]

Not necessarily, though. But I'm not saying that in relation to the equalizer. All three Crown guards do not provide much more of a boost than the reputation meter currently does. With the fight being identical to territory fights otherwise, Crown guards are not going to make opposition null when people 100 AL below you can still take from you in the current system.

[pulsar spear]

Lets say AL applied first that would be 1,550 hp 1,550 mp and 3100 ward right?

and then you add in 60% stat increase

2,480 HP and MP and 4,960 ward

The person coming at you would have 0 al and 0 bonuses so would only have the 1,000, 1,000 hp/mp and 2,000 ward right?

[red obsidian]

Warden: 25%
Amity: 15%
Crownguard: 60%
Great Conq pets: 5% for only BB1, 10% for BB3
... Isn't that 105% if it's additive?

[rapid fossil]

Oh, one thing I forgot to say. Well yes it's still a lot, narrowing the gap does more than people think. With one person not losing much power, but the other person losing a lot of defense capability, it's easier than you think. I'm not saying that simply narrowing the power Gap instead of eliminating the Gap entirely is the best idea, but it is an idea I thought worth presenting just in case. Being percentage based, it would still work just not quite as completely.

[pulsar spear]

I do hope mechanic wise we can get a conqueror slot (like dungeon/pvp/tower/raid)

besides our current convo 😄

A sliding scale may not be a bad idea

to be fair

[rapid fossil]

If you're using Warden, if you're using an incredibly rare dominion + bestial bond amity, if you are using one of the new followers which are still not the most effective ones, if you are monitoring your Crownsguards to get the max boost. Aside from the slightly higher boost of the crown's guard versus influence meter, it will be no different than what is currently in play with Territory fights at least so far. Narrowing the Gap would not be suddenly ineffective with this new system.

[pulsar spear]

maybe also have 3 levels of equalizer with varying cost too?

level 1 cheapest 25% drop then 50% and then 75% ? or go lower like 15 35 55?

Increase the cost and the cd per

But also increase time up to an hour to use

[rapid fossil]

That certainly an idea. Maybe only two levels, though, so one isn't ridiculously cheap.

[warm wigeon]

Are we still on about the High AL players not liking Material Equalizer and purchased buffs while low ALs want it? Its too polarizing 😂

[pulsar spear]

That would be the one with the highest coold down though?

So say 15% reduction of AL and 8 hour CD for 30 minutes of play

[rapid fossil]

Nah, I think the explanation provided by Odie is great for its forecast, I just wanted to bring up a devil's advocate kind of idea that may be a compromise

[pulsar spear]

35% with 4 hour cd for 45 minutes play and 55 with 2 hour cd for 60 minutes of play AND they would have an increase price each day until daily reset so say 50, 75, 100 and price increases 2X each time used in a day?

[rapid fossil]

The question then would be.. do they stack?

[pulsar spear]

That would be a lot of proofs to have to use

no way

no stackie

[rapid fossil]

Okay Kuzco

Hey, if the most expensive one is 100%> stacking may actually be fine.

[pulsar spear]

I agree but but I think Sora and I may have actually come up with a pretty decent compromise

[rapid fossil]

If I could high-five you I would

[pulsar spear]

Equalizer should have 2-3 levels with increasing cost that only gives a percentage of AL reduction while also having exponentially higher costs to buy per day.

Ok summary? ^

[rapid fossil]

That sure is an idea. It would narrow the gap.

[pulsar spear]

I also like the idea of cost increasing based on use + number of places you have conquered.

[rapid fossil]

I do want to restate though, I'm not trying to undermine the devs's explanation & justification with this, but it is an idea worth bringing up.

[red obsidian]

Ok, so we go with
Crownguards: 60%
Warden if you care: 25%
Amity: 15% if you tried at amities at all, Parapet if you didn't try.
Better protect chance pet
That's still 100% if you care and have tried at amities
And 85% if you care with a larger protect chance and Parapet if you haven't
If you don't care then why spend money on Crownguards or Warden... Because you don't care

[spark glade]

This honestly sounds like an overcomplication if you ask me. Maybe having 3 different levels of varying degrees of length of time and effect is a bit much in my opinion

[pulsar spear]

It's how the Crownguards are setup

There are 3 with varying levels of buff and time

[spark glade]

But I also agree with the dev’s decision enough that more than one already sounds unnecessary

[red obsidian]

It's 6 hours, 24 hours, 24 hours, it's not too hard to manage, it is expensive but most people will likely use them reactive when getting hitz not just keep them up 24/7

[spark glade]

That so? Wish I was in the beta so I could see this stuff myself x.x

[rapid fossil]

The main point I was making was that with the current system, if the numbers are right, you have.. the potential to get 25% more stats than the current system if you get really lucky with an Amity and sacrifice a follower with deific channel? It's not going to outclass a percentage-based AL reduction I guarantee you. That's not my way of saying that this percentage idea is just hands down the way to go, I'm just telling you that the boost from this new system, at least as it stands so far, isn't much better than the current system so it's not just going to make a percentage reduction null.

[rapid fossil]

I do agree that three is probably a bit much.

[pulsar spear]

Guees it's 2 CD now could have sworn it was like 4, 8, 24

[rapid fossil]

I believe it was for 12 and 24. I didn't know they got boosted. I think that is a good move.

[rapid fossil]

Oh wait no I read the description wrong

[pulsar spear]

We are not fully sure what percent these also helping us as well

It just says helps protect from players

[rapid fossil]

The Crownsguards?

[pulsar spear]

The 2nd picture the ramparts

[rapid fossil]

Oh, the barricades only work against NPCs based on the description.

The rest technically protect against players, they're just not passive

[warm wigeon]

Maybe we need to see all of this stuff in public beta before we try to fine tune the numbers?

In concept are these tools to counter AL ok?

Assuming they will be balanced better in the future

[red obsidian]

200 crowns today

[crisp condor]

How many settlements?

[red obsidian]

Well, most of my crowns are just top crown, but I do have like 12 or so where I grabbed all 5 crowns

[crisp condor]

So a decent time investment

Looks about right in rewards

[supple violet]

Give me like a thousand of these and my cactus will kill everyone

[rapid fossil]

Suddenly I can't do any damage with my youngest other soul

At least just testing it against one NPC

I was also doing horrible damage with the tier 7 one, I couldn't do enough before I ran out of mana.

[clever scroll]

Othersouls have mana now?

[serene dirge]

Scaling adjustments and a ton of bug fixes are now out. Be sure to also update your clients to 3.15.6beta

[analog dew]

Just came to say this. Massive nerf

Gone from winning 80% of NPC battles to about 20%

[clever scroll]

The T5 is way strong than before

[rapid fossil]

Nice statue of Dagger Rattata in front of the guild

[warm wigeon]

Sadly this is what most fights look for me right now

We cant test the balance of low tiers in beta

Mana is super low too one skill and im pretty much out

[clever scroll]

How are the lower.tiers going to defeat an npc?

[warm wigeon]

Need better gear of course

The issue is, aside from exp-less, tiers 3-7 dont actually have 200% masterforged gear

And i certainly dont have it in sandbox or mirror

That would be my biggest feedback here at the moment ( see vid above)

[serene dirge]

will definitely need a bit of tweaking yet

[warm wigeon]

Try to strike a balance where a t3-7 can fight with an ornate armor set of their tier upgraded to level 6-7ish lets say (or legendary upgraded to lv8-10). For t8 and above it's reasonable to expect lvl10 / masterforged gear of tier required to fight. Realizing that might be tough to scale but thats the advice Ive got right now

Unfortunately we probably wont be able to test that type of stuff until public beta though with any accurate feedback

[karmic nymph]

Are people typically upgrading gear to level 6-7 in T3? T5/7 I can see it but idk about 3

At that level just farming world mobs can easily push someone out of the tier unless they restraint

Granted I barely play my alts but my alts do seem to be levelling faster than they can get the materials for upgrades

[warm wigeon]

For competitive PVP im not sure what the threshold is at those tiers honestly

Im just throwing an example of the type of things to think about when balancing

[karmic nymph]

Fair enough, I doubt there's really a major competitive scheme in the low tiers rn anyway

I'm just speaking from my experience of how quickly the levels come

Meanwhile my t6 is stuck with a level 3 weapon because no scalestone lmao

[pulsar spear]

So... I think... Maybe something is off withe the scaling of the conq pets...

A series of pictures using fresh sandbox vs mirror - Gilga + warden + pet no amity b/c sandbox - 0 Buff - the series then goes through all three buffs and then swapping to Beo

Gigla with max buff got up to 68k ward - swap to Beo with same exact gear and jump to 142k ward

Beo/warden

this is also with updated client

[remote onyx]

Proofs of conquering are only obtainable from conquering new settlements, correct?

[pulsar spear]

Conq are the SAS and Take over one - the other are only as a reward daily Proof of Crownship

[remote onyx]

And are those prices changing with how many settlements you have at the moment?

[pulsar spear]

The rampart ones do I am unsure about the equalizer atm

If @rapid fossil posts his ramparts I think he has like 5x my places

or more

[remote onyx]

The upkeep ones seem fairly priced in the picture, mostly asking because the equalizer at 20 proofs seems a bit cheap considering you’ll probably easily take more than 20 settlements in 30min (+ whatever you get from SAS)

[pulsar spear]

If you are going freeway speeds you may hit a lot but you aren't going to get double much especially with a chance to draw or fail

I had to choose to concentrate on conquering and that was about it

sometimes I did get lucky though and got the sas win but most times it was gone

400 max VD in vehicle doesn't give you a lot of time to goof around

[remote onyx]

Still, if you even get 1 settlement conquered/min (which I assume is a low estimate), you’d get 30 proofs right?

If they scale with settlements I can see how they could reach prohibitive costs, mostly asking since Odie said they’d be more of a Hail Mary and not something you’d be able to use on cooldown

[rapid fossil]

Jinn's Talent/Bear's Might works, but it becomes a wack fest until you run out of mana or die because of the defense loss. Most fights are waaaaaaaaay too hard for the amount of mana you get.

[red obsidian]

200 crowns costs

[warm wigeon]

Those dont help since those are m2 multipliers

Im also not in amazing gear but still

I cant test accurately until public beta. No good stuff to test in mirror /sandbox at t3/t5/t7

[rapid fossil]

What do you mean?

I know what the M's are, I just don't understand what it has to do with the buff because I thought it was just the moves that have m multipliers

[pulsar spear]

I have some ok gear I tried to empty all my castle before getting mirror

[warm wigeon]

Jinns multiplies 0 damage by 1.5

Which is still 0