#About AL in the remaining forms on AI PvP

589 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

misty lion
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So far, the only argument I've heard is "omg but mah time grinding noooo". This does not promote accessibility to PvP content for new progressing players at all. As long as Orna remains a love service game, and here's to hoping it does, we can't expect to see much of the elite player base retiring any time soon. That is only going to create a more and more isolated PvP environment in the end Tiers.

Typo... but I'm leaving it. It's a love service game baby.

topaz sphinx
misty lion
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I know that, I already saw it. What I'm saying is I don't think the new system is going to involve the current form of AI PvP

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If that's true, it removes the issue from there entirely.

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I only have the information from the blog post last year, but to my interpretation, that is going to be something akin to the traveller's trial things.

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I could be wrong about that tho, and if so, my opinion would still apply to area control AI PvP.

whole zenith
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so, what's your point?

crisp granite
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people already voted that they want turn 1 meta waaaaay more than turn 1000 attrition/status war

wild cairn
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The only thing in the current ai pvp that gives me mininal defensive wins is my small amount of AL (37) haha I think removing it entirely will just create guaranteed wins for everyone participating

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Player offensive power is bonkers

misty lion
misty lion
crisp granite
misty lion
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Adding ascension levels, for instance, to a 1 turn ultima build just makes an already OP kit even more ridiculous, and even harder to contend with for a progressing T10 or fresh T11.

crisp granite
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but yeah, turn 1 meta will not change anytime soon, since people hate grinding 1k turns just to get 1 win

misty lion
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Live PvP has no ascensions, and the 1 turn meta turned into... 2-4 turn meta?

crisp granite
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everyone and their dogs would rather finish it in 5 secs and move on regardless of the results

misty lion
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Orna had 1 turn meta before ascension levels, addition of certain things created the turtle meta that was indeed lame as shit.

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But as seen in BoF, house rules can address that.

crisp granite
misty lion
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That's literally my point

crisp granite
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which is just turn 1 meta with extra steps

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not much difference

misty lion
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Like that is exactly what I'm saying.

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It is still basically 1 turn meta WITHOUT ascension.

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Ascension just turns the 100k ward gilga into a 300k ward gilga, further promoting busted SS3 1 turn meta

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Number bloat in its purest form, that only serves to provide an even more skewed playing field for new and progressing end game players.

crisp granite
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good luck finding people that will rally for this cause though

misty lion
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I am a fairly fresh 250. Also a pretty casual player, far from a min/max kinda guy. I have 17 AL on my best.

When I get a daily quest to defeat arena opponents, I now have to struggle for wins against other T11s with 10-s to literal 100-s more AL than me.

crisp granite
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it's mostly the lazy asses that always calls for asc removal in area control

misty lion
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Area control, to my understanding, is losing the traditional arena style pvp we have now.

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For the exact reason why I think AL should be removed. Current end game "elites" have too drastic an advantage over new T10/11 players.

crisp granite
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you should check out those less than 1yr profiles that have double the asc amount over the average 3/4yr players

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asc is hella faster nowadays

misty lion
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Publicly, there is not much info available in the final release, but it sounds like "make a team of dudes, give those dudes some of your gear, send em out to take territory". Odie says AL will still play a role but I don't see how.

misty lion
crisp granite
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you can't really see how, the guild isn't even in the beta yet, it's not even june yet

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this thread is too early for conq guild

misty lion
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The blog post from last year explains it like I just did, to my interpretation

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And again, there is no other public information that I know of so I have to assume it is something that resembles what I said

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June is literally in less than 2 weeks

wild cairn
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I regularly beat guys with over 100 als, some even 100 more than my own

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Removing the ALs won't change that, it'll just remove the matches I don't win haha

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The defensive ai is where all the discussion breaks down to anything else being moot imo

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I'm also about as casual as they come if you average my intensity over the years. I also don't have any horse in the pvp race ||4728 kills in 4.75years😅🤣||. Just my basic opinion on it

misty lion
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You say you regularly beat guys with high AL, and then say you don't really PvP much and have about 1k PvP kills a year in your time here. That doesn't jive, my guy

wild cairn
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Regularly, as in the fights I do. Not a time frame of any kind

misty lion
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I am still finding that hard to believe, but ok.

wild cairn
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Alright then haha

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I'll leave ya be

misty lion
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I'm just being honest. Provide proof of your "regularly beating people 100+ AL" I guess cuz I simply don't believe you.

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To put your PvP experience into perspective.. I also do not regularly PvP, I basically just do it for the dailies. I have 8k wins. So, yeah I find your claim hard to believe.

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So the arguments now for why AL should remain in PvP consist of "eh, it works for me, git gud" and "but my time in the game! my participation trophy!"

wild cairn
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I never said they should stay tbh, I just said it would make it easier for me if they were gone

misty lion
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I didn't mean to imply you specifically said anything ¯_(ツ)_/¯

dark stag
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I think my win rate against +100 ALs is about 40-50%. And I'm confident in my ability to make a build that greatly increases that number.

topaz sphinx
crisp granite
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there should be vids of the previous pvp tourney (the last one with AL) with some people pulling off some wins against the eventual winner that's like a hundred ALs above the rest of the pool

whole zenith
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I stopped my ascension at 19 for all classes, and i think my kingdom is on a 40+ win streak

i still am confused what this discussion thread is about...

you want no ascension in arena pvp? kingdom wars? area control?

because it's just a metric of who played more???? isnt that what video game pvp is?????

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I dont get it. youre mad that ascending is a thing? you went up a tier and all the T11 people are harder?

personally I don't ever want to match up w/ anyone 10+ ascension higher than me either, so I just dont do arena or coliseum anymore. the game wants to make it inaccessible for everyone except the most dedicated people per tier, so what?

proud prairie
misty lion
proud prairie
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Ignoring AL is the most literal example of expecting a participation trophy. Its not training time spent based, it removes all the effort behind it. It's literally time not spent in game.

misty lion
misty lion
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Literally just time spent grinding. Zero skill involved.

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This does not equate to skill.

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Point to any MMO RPG that has a system similar to ascension, that works in PvP

proud prairie
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" i took no time to grind efficiently, please give me my participation trophy"

misty lion
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Grind efficiently? OK so make a new character and catch up to the guys in 100+ AL

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Let me know how long it takes you to catch up, and what AL those same people are at when you get there.

topaz sphinx
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Bro this is a grinding game

misty lion
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Yes, I realize that. And that kind of system is great for PvE.

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In PvP it does not in any way promote a fair playing field. It makes PvP cater to the guys who get to spend all day grinding.

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It's not sustainable. If Orna carries on for several more years, what is the T11 roster going to look like?

Do you really think it's fair for a new T11 to have to fight with people who have 4+ years of ascending?

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AL in PvP are only going to serve to further isolate pvp.

Responses like "personally I don't ever want to match up w/ anyone 10+ ascension higher than me either, so I just dont do arena or coliseum anymore. the game wants to make it inaccessible for everyone except the most dedicated people per tier, so what?" Are examples of that.

quasi light
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I don't understand why there would need to be full removal when there is already an outlet for no AL pvp in BoF. If anything removing from everything would be diluting options.

This game is a game about grinding, by doing the grind whether it's unskilled or not, you're participating in the game. I think if it was taken away from pvp a lot of the core players would stop playing because why grind ascension in the first place? You our scale most PvE content by the time you're at 50 or so.

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And just for kicks I played arena on my rs (0 ascensions, very unoptimized, didn't switch off seeker) and was able to do a defeat 30 opponents quest in like 10 mins. So I really think the issue overstated here.

misty lion
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Another "eh it works for me so why change it"

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Grinding for scaling stats is great for PvE. For PvP, it only promotes an isolated PvP environment.

AL should be bracketed, or removed entirely, before this becomes a serious issue.

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What reason is there for BoF house rules to not apply to all PvP? Why were AL removed in the first place?

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Could it be because they are imbalanced in a PvP environment?

quasi light
# misty lion Another "eh it works for me so why change it"

I just said I played on a completely non-ascended class at t11 and was fine. And even if we take your conclusion at face value, what do players lose access to? Arena, Colliseum and potentially Territory? Two non-meta farming methods at t11 and something that is being reworked so not really worth commenting on at this stage.

misty lion
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And I'll again point to the studios reasons for reworking Area Control. Currently, area control is essentially locked from new players.

quasi light
misty lion
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Intentionally imbalanced is a joke in itself.

quasi light
misty lion
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Which only adds to my argument?

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Also, I don't believe the new area control is even going to resemble the current pvp format.

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Sounds like basically Pokémon battles at this point

quasi light
misty lion
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Based on the info we have right now, I don't see it being the same issue there.

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And I still don't understand how AL is supposed to play a role.

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But I guess we aren't going to know that for some time yet.

quasi light
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Its hard to say because they've seemingly iterated on it since the initial post, but I think a lot of players would be disappointed if they werent using their own character in their own tier.

misty lion
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I'm just going off the blog post from last year. It does not sound at all like there is going to be traditional turn based PvP.

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Something like "assemble a team of npcs, give them some of your gear to fight with, send them out to conquer"

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Unless there's been some drastic change to the info we've been provided so far, it doesn't sound like Arena PvP is going to be involved in area control.

quasi light
# misty lion Intentionally imbalanced is a joke in itself.

I really don't think so, in a game about powering up and utilzing the strength you've gained, it does not make sense to fully equalize that grinding. Could'nt the same arguments be applied to leveling 1-250, acquiring gear with higher quality? It's just more time spent for power increases.

misty lion
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Levels are bracketed tho.

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Why don't we just remove the tier brackets then, and let T1s fight T11s?

quasi light
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Why not just make everyone level 1 with the same gear set? I don't think its unreasonable to ask someone be ascended at t11, I was AL 30 before I even hit 250.,

misty lion
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Gear is obtainable to all, within a specific tier, just relying on RNG.

AL are largely based purely on time spent in the game grinding. Time spent grinding does not guarantee high level Gear, but it does eventually guarantee AL.

quasi light
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The more time you put in the better gear you'll have, sure its RNG based but you increase the statistical probability immensely with killcount.

misty lion
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Yes, but still RNG based.

silk prairie
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That sounds like an argument to normalise gear more than ascensions 😅

misty lion
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RNG is about the only fairness we have in gaming. RNG does not consider how much time you have to play, it's still the same regardless. Of course, more time to grind does increase your chance at an ornate item, but still does not guarantee it.

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I'm 250 and never once received an ornate Arisen Tome

quasi light
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Personally, I think rewarding time, commitment and efficiency is more desirable than rewarding random chance, but ok.

misty lion
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I agree, for PvE.

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I never thought I would be playing a mobile game for 5 years, but here we are. Supposing and hoping Orna carries on for another 5 years.... what are the veteran player AL going to look like?

silk prairie
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I bet if you looked at who has the uber high ascensions, it's relatively newer players

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I agree that the bracketing could be improved

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I don't agree AL should be removed entirely

misty lion
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I think bracketing should happen first. Barring that, removal.

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If players are so concerned about their bloated numbers fighting other bloated numbers, we have a private PvP system do we not?

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Organize in house tournaments if you want to pit AL against AL for the sake of a pissing contest.

silk prairie
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Could turn that right around 😛
If players are so concerned about fighting on an even field, we have a place for that do we not?

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Organise in-house tournaments if you want to pit non-AL against non-AL for the sake of an OL contest

misty lion
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But that private system does not contribute to kill counts for dailies or quests.

quasi light
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Pretty sure BoF matchmaking does

misty lion
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BoF does, but the NPC fights do not.

silk prairie
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is that the real request we're drilling down into? Seems a simple suggestion to make

misty lion
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I get maybe... 1/10 actual PvP there

misty lion
silk prairie
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Fixing bracketing shoooould solve that, correct?

misty lion
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My first recommendation on a fix, yes.

topaz sphinx
misty lion
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But as it hasn't happened yet, I assume there's some difficulty.

silk prairie
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Maybe, but probably more that it's just not a priority

misty lion
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But as AL are already gone from BoF I imagine it's easier to do that than bracket AL.

misty lion
silk prairie
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And I would disagree, as a fellow casual I haven't really touched arena in years

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But I'm not against rebracketing

misty lion
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I would point to NF's reason for, and decision to, rework area control.

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I think that atleast indicates that the idea is on their mind

silk prairie
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Area control ties into the GPS aspect of the game, does make sense to adjust that since GPS is meant to be one of the major points of the game

misty lion
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Ties into it, yes, but realistically how many players are interacting with each other for Area Control?

quasi light
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and I think theres a pretty big difference between bracketing area control so that t4 doesnt fight t11 vs low AL vs high AL t11.

misty lion
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It may be a game wide feature, but I imagine the activity is largely isolated to a handful of people per area.

silk prairie
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which is why it's being targeted for change, no?

misty lion
silk prairie
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(ignoring that the handful of people per area is the entire population of Orna players mimic )

quasi light
misty lion
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I would also argue that the number of players likely participating in the arena is much much higher

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I don't believe the decision to rework Area Control was based on the experience of people participating, but rather the lack of players participating at all.

wild cairn
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It was also requested heavily to be touched on for more accessibility for all tiers

misty lion
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Because they were not participating. Due to the extremely imbalanced and isolated environment that consisted of veteran players owning the majority of high traffic areas.

wild cairn
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Were not or wanted to participate more? Sounds like a lot of diffinitive answers based on personal opinion

misty lion
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Sounds like the same answer.

wild cairn
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Lols this thread has no room for discussion, not sure why I came back

misty lion
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Then see your way out?

wild cairn
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Lols

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Have fun

silk prairie
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Not much of a discussion if you're not interested in other viewpoints 😅

misty lion
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I'm simply providing my argument against your viewpoint.

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As of now, the only argument for why AL make sense in PvP is

"I've been here longer than you! I deserve this!"

wild cairn
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Vs the "I just got here, I deserve it too" 🤣

misty lion
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Vs the "wow it's gunna take me ages to ever catch up to these guys" and that is an issue that will only be exasperated as the game goes on

wild cairn
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Current ai can't support any serious ai pvp

quasi light
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vs the "wow those guys are strong I can't wait to beat them" thats the whole reason I ascended in the first place

misty lion
misty lion
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Which, imo, adds to my point that yall are grasping at a pissing contest with the only loser being the actual player

proud prairie
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I wonder if anyone here has checked the top 20 competative, and seen him many non 250s are in it atm..hmm hmm..

quasi light
misty lion
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Do you consider those top 20 casual players?

wild cairn
misty lion
quasi light
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First attack and AL being easier to grind early on still stand.

wild cairn
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So this thread could be solely about wars/arena with broke ai? So pointless from the start?

misty lion
proud prairie
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top 20 competitive currently has TWO people with over 100 AL, end of discussion.

misty lion
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But do you consider them casual players?

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Also, what is the formula for competitive leaderboard?

proud prairie
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100% troll shifting goalposts and topic everytime arguement is dismantled, lol.

misty lion
misty lion
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I am speaking from the PoV of a casual player. Not a top 20 competitive player, that is not a casual lmao

misty lion
quasi light
misty lion
quasi light
modest turret
# misty lion That's a poor argument. I have zero chance vs. These players with 100s of AL. I ...

You really don't. I have 136 AL and I've lost to T9s before. The issue you're having is your own personal skill issue and inability to work on builds until you find one that works for you against higher AL players. You should want to thrive to get better if you're interested in pvp. Not wah, wah, wah these guys are so strong cause they invested time! My ALs were literally for the pvp aspect of the game. Every game that has a competitive pvp requires grinding for the better gear/ levels whatever it is. Unless it's a p2p or had trading then ppl just spend real money.

misty lion
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As long as that higher AL player stays active... the gap cannot close

misty lion
quasi light
misty lion
modest turret
misty lion
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I don't believe that.

modest turret
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GS isn't even the cheese anymore with manticore eyes

misty lion
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Unless you are talking about area control, where the player may have spent weeks working you down

fickle sleet
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Very Scary Skeleton summon:

modest turret
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Oh they don't spend weeks. It's local and I'm constantly claiming the areas. It's done in a day

misty lion
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I'm 250 with AL and I hit zeros on some players.

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Even done in a day, that's not done in one fight

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And that's still referring to an aspect that's being reworked

modest turret
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And I hit zeros on players even at 136 al... it's builds man. You gotta have a variety of them lol. Every slot I have with the exception of a VD build is pvp based

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Arena is meant to just farm shit... idk how you're losing to the AI there tbh lol. Liek others have said, you want no AL, hit bof 🤷🏻‍♂️

misty lion
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Do you consider yourself, with 136 AL, a casual player? Are you hitting zeros on a player on the same field as you? I know you aren't hitting 0s on t9s.

modest turret
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Oh I know I'm above casual. But as others have pointed out there's players with less than a year with way more AL than me lol.

misty lion
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Additionally, arena PvP is locked to tier. You cannot have a T9 vs a T11 in arena.

modest turret
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Not zeroes on t9, no. But I have hit zeroes on players with next to no AL

wild cairn
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You can in wars

misty lion
modest turret
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Def/res builds can actually do wonders if you're not getting smacked by rend epee

misty lion
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And what does that Def/Res build do for you on offense? Defense does not win a PvP fight. Unless you are relying on the status/DoT game. Which I've been told the majority of players have voted against.

modest turret
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Makes the fight a lot more than 1 turn.

misty lion
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But you still die.

modest turret
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Nope, you're fighting ai you have the upperhand

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Spam transference and you're good lmao

misty lion
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That's a farce

modest turret
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No it's not 🤦🏻‍♂️

misty lion
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I can't deal damage to someone 100 AL over rme

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And I am calling BS on your claims that people regularly do.

modest turret
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There's def/res decay as the battle goes on

misty lion
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I'm also heavily questioning what you all consider a casual player...

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Def/Res decay does nothing when you are fighting player with 300k ward.

wild cairn
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I think your the pvp try hard comparatively lols

misty lion
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I literally only PvP for dailies.

wild cairn
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(Just a joke😜)

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I did try to add merit to my offensive claims yesterday. Only found 2 over 60AL, did 20 arena tho and remembered I don't like pvp and stopped haha

misty lion
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With my 0AL gilga

whole zenith
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you want to win pvp with 0AL gil?

misty lion
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You do not read.

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Go away if you aren't going to contribute.

whole zenith
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what else is going on in this troll thread?

modest turret
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I've never heard anyone complain about ALs in arena tbh lol. What's your class? I'll go do some runs on your AL

quasi light
whole zenith
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ive got 19 ascension, is that cheating? it cost about as much as a couple demonforges

misty lion
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You really are adding nothing here. Go away.

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Can you even read?

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Well... I think NF reworking area control is at least a step towards some kind of balance. Hopefully they apply the same logic to the remaining AI pvp.

whole zenith
quasi light
misty lion
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You dealt damage, did you kill them?

quasi light
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1 of em

misty lion
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Maybe you have more luck than me in matchmaking but I consistently fight people close to 100

whole zenith
quasi light
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Again shifting goalposts though, was literally impossible to deal damage 10 mins ago.

misty lion
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For me it is.

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And again, casual player.

modest turret
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Then change your build...

quasi light
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What moves are you using? Hard to not deal damage if you use Rend/Epee or HS3

misty lion
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Hard to not deal damage if you've already grinded out these high level abilities.

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And again, casual player.

whole zenith
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that first ss i posted has 103 asc on me

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i even agree with you, arthur, about wanting a strategic PvP system, but you are flying against windmills

quasi light
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Guarding Strikes 3? HS2? The argument went from: AL has no skill to gather and shouldnt be rewarded in PvP, to: PVP should cater to completely ungrinded unknowledgeable players (Despite t11 likely taking months to get to for a 'casual player')

whole zenith
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took 4 years for me to get t11

misty lion
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And now you are moving goal posts. Hundred of AL in less than a year, but months for T11?

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What is HS2 btw

quasi light
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Horizontal Slash 2

fickle sleet
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If you do a 'casual' effort, you can only expect 'casual' results. Just like in real life.

modest turret
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Yeah he's just complaining he's a casual and doesn't wanna grind anything out even casually. This thread is pointless lol

uncut herald
misty lion
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Then daily boosts for casual players should not be locked behind pvp

modest turret
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Make the game easier for me because I'm a casual

uncut herald
fickle sleet
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Daily Quests? How many people are really grinding them for a miniscule bonus?

whole zenith
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a casual player doesnt care about daily boosts XD

misty lion
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Uh.... you don't do your dailies for the bonuses?

fickle sleet
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Nope.

misty lion
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Whack.

uncut herald
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Only ever the orn one for endless

quasi light
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Personally I only do the orn one (which I believe cannot have arena opponents as a requirement).

fickle sleet
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Only an Orn booster for endless. Other ones are useless

whole zenith
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no, i don't

its ok youre mad, and want to vent about al or pvp rngesus pwning you over and over agaib

misty lion
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I disagree that they're useless but that's another discussion I guess

uncut herald
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The luck one gives 10% luck, which isn't a lot and luck cap can be easily reached through gear anyways

misty lion
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As for Odie's statement, that hurts my heart. I respect the end game PvE grind, that's fun as hell. But having those bloated stats in PvP is antithetical to a fair and accessible PvP environment.

fickle sleet
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So, let's get over them then:

  • exp bonus: as a T11 WHICH YOU STATED YOU ARE is no use for you.
  • gold bonus: do you need more gold you're not going to use?
  • orn bonus: this one, as stated before, is used for endless sessions.
  • luck bonus: easily capped at 400% with just gear, luck bonus from quest doesn't help there to go above the cap
  • discovery bonus: yay more crap on the floor
misty lion
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Just because you don't like the bonuses does not mean others don't. I like my dailies.

uncut herald
misty lion
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Of topic question, can T11 share xp to T10?

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Cuz that's kinda been my reason for doing the XP daily.

fickle sleet
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Yes, it can

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Do you allow your T10 friends to leech XP off you? If yes, it's good for you. 2/5

misty lion
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Uhh yes I do lol

quasi light
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Please don't put those players in your backpack, they will get to t11 without enough ascension levels and will quit because it is hard to get the discovery bonus from arena

misty lion
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I don't need xp at T11, as you said. Why wouldn't I let friends leach?

fickle sleet
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Because they'll ultimately have worse gear when they hit T11 by doing nothing

whole zenith
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i dont need ascension lvls at t11, why would i?

misty lion
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You think passing a couple billion to an already T10 player is going to break their game?

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It's not like back in the day when you could blast your new friend up to T5 on accident

fickle sleet
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I mean they can get powerleveled to T11, then argue that Arena is too hard or something

misty lion
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You can't get power levelled to T11 unless both players partied at T1 lol

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And even then, it's not really power leveling... it's just leveling

fickle sleet
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We were talking about leveling up a T10 char to T11, not a single word was written about T1 chars

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So this argument is completely irrevelant

misty lion
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Still think AL should be bracket at the least, if not that then removed from PvP. It's still essentially a participation trophy for time spent in the game that translates to infinitely scaling stats. I still think that's going to create a very isolated pvp environment eventually.

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Looking forward to the new area control and hoping that will count as "pvp opponents defeated"

exotic lagoon
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this whole post seems like someone who doesn't know the territory game. very achievable taking territory from peeps dozens of AL above you. try counterattack, or assassin gs and rely on summons seemingly infinite m1

misty lion
#

Territory control is not relevant to this discussion as it's already being reworked and... see above

#

And it's being reworked for the same reasons I think AL should be removed from pvp

modest turret
#

AL isn't being removed from territory

misty lion
#

I know that

#

But I don't believe territory control is going to consist of arena pvp we have now. Please... read

modest turret
#

And hopefully they changed their horrific stance of having a "team" of mercenaries

misty lion
#

I already spoke about that multiple times.

misty lion
exotic lagoon
#

Then... If not centered around territory, why is it such a big deal? there are no rewards from pvp 😆 even blades ceases to be useful after 2k proofs

misty lion
#

BoF also irrelevant, no AL there.

#

Also, spend too much time fighting NPCs that don't count towards dailies or quests

modest turret
exotic lagoon
#

I don't know anyone that engages with pvp outside of area, so I'm unsure what the thread is trying to accomplish. just run alt colis like even lategame high ascension players do

modest turret
#

That screams removal of GPS and let me send a team out to conquer territory. Whether that was going to be the case or not

misty lion
#

But we still don't know

modest turret
misty lion
#

And what we do know implies that is still the case

#

Either way, area control was targeted for a rework for the same reason I think AL should be bracketed or removed from all PvP. End game veterans owning everything made it inaccessible to most players.

In time I expect the same thing will happen to AI pvp for T10s and 11s as well.

exotic lagoon
#

I could see an argument to be made if arena grinding offered anything outside of greater souls but... even the useful arena drops are easily cheesed with alt colis

misty lion
#

Now you are using game work around to alleviate an issue.

#

Cheese coli with alts is not an answer, it's another issue arising from the problem with AI pvp

exotic lagoon
#

I mean if nf have given no indication that they want to fix it then 🤷‍♂️

whole zenith
#

its cause its not broken

#

arena gates nothing. its a showcase for players w/ the highest stats

misty lion
#

I hope that the area control rework is an indication that it is at least on their radar

hidden quail
#

I was 0ing out a AL 100 deity and taking a few of his territories

#

I was definitely losing to him more often than I was winning, but if I got all three defensive buffs up he did no damage to me

misty lion
#

Man... that's still not relevant to the discussion. Again, area control being reworked, and there's outside factors in area control stats. Namely, influence

hidden quail
#

Lol it's just not that hard to kill highly ascended people, and to make it easier to kill someone with 100 AL's is dumb

misty lion
#

"It works for me, your idea is dumb"

#

Noted

hidden quail
#

IDK man if you are spending time in the PvP menu you are just wasting time as far as I'm concerned. And if you look at the top 100 players on the worldwide leaderboard #100 is 90 AL? Of course there are a bunch of people lower on the board with more AL but I don't think staggeringly high AL's are all that common either

misty lion
#

Are you 250?

#

You know 250s only fight 250s in the arena? Outside of kingdom wars and cheesing coliseum with alts.

hidden quail
#

The arena is totally irrelevant really. The only pvp that matters at all is territory control, or live PVP if you are actually good at it or care

misty lion
#

Soooo it doesn't matter that I like to do arenas for my dailies, and my idea is dumb because you think pvp is pointless.

#

Got it

hidden quail
#

I haven't used the arena other than testing some wacky builds for 5 minutes at all really. Doing it for dailies is fine, but you already have non-al pvp in the live PVP arena

#

And if you get smacked once or twice by some high Al guys in arena, just kill other people lol.

misty lion
#

So because you don't use the arena, my idea is dumb.

#

Again, 250s only fight 250s. It takes me roughly 10 fights before I find someone with a relatively similar AL. Someone that doesn't drop 100k on first turn.

fickle sleet
misty lion
#

Scroll up

delicate trout
#

There's not really any reward other than berserk mushrooms in the arena or territory control. People just do it for fun.

misty lion
#

Stop with territory control

hidden quail
misty lion
#

Until we know what the rework contains, area control is irrelevant.

fickle sleet
#

I'm sorry, but all you are doing right now is antagonising everyone that decides to talk with you. Do you really want to talk to a wall?

misty lion
#

How so?

#

Antagonizing by providing my argument based on my opinion and experience in the arena?

#

I'm sorry that... antagonizes you?

hidden quail
#

Removing ALs from arena would be fine I guess? But I think it's probably a very very small group of people who really care about it

misty lion
#

I've not attacked a single person here. I've simply provided my point of view. I've been told "git gud" "grind moar" and "thats dumb"

hidden quail
#

It's just not content people engage with all that much, so probably it wouldn't matter a whole lot to remove ALs, but again you have live PVP for that

misty lion
#

Then answer me this

#

Why remove AL from live?

hidden quail
#

Because it actually matters lol, arena doesn't matter

misty lion
#

.... again, my enjoyment does not matter.

#

Me wanting to complete my npc quests and my dailies doesn't matter.

delicate trout
#

Gear acquistion is also very grind heavy and extremely random. It takes time to get to level 250. If you'd take away ascension levels, then take away levels and gear as well.

hidden quail
#

I would personally enjoy DMs much more if they only had the one where you spam click on the rocks at the center of your screen

misty lion
#

Gear is still available to everyone. Me catching up to these 100+ AL players is a time gate.

hidden quail
#

I think some kind of bracketing system would be fine or even good for arena, but I doubt that system is going to be prioritized

misty lion
#

Also what I said above.

#

Bracket first. Barring that, remove AL from pvp

hidden quail
#

I am agreeing with you

#

I think you might get a better reception to bracketing rather than taking away ALs

misty lion
#

I assume, since AL were removed from live pvp, that it's difficult to bracket for some reason

hidden quail
#

I would like diluted mnemonics much more if they made every step the simplest one

misty lion
#

Otherwise, why wouldn't they have been bracketed in the first place

hidden quail
#

Because taking a small population playing live PVP at any time and splitting the playerbase even more wouldn't make any sense. Arena pvp is just matching against any orna character so they could just find you a match no matter what

misty lion
#

You still lean towards this "most people don't so it doesn't matter" tho guy

#

But... given how few people are participating in the BoF arena, and that the NPCs there do not count towards quests or dailies for pvp, I prefer to spam some arenas for my count.

Or I did until I hit 250 and now only fight high AL players.

hidden quail
#

? I directly addressed why bracketing wouldn't work for live PVP and why it would work perfectly fine for arena pvp

misty lion
#

I maybe misunderstood

#

If BoF was a consistent PvP fight and not mostly NPCs, I would just go there and be happy with it. I prefer the live pvp anyway. But trying to get any dailies/quests done in there would usually spend most of my available orna time 😆

hidden quail
#

Well that's exactly why they went with no AL in live instead of bracketing. It would be dramatically harder to find a match if the 3 people playing live at any time also were bracketed by 10AL bands or whatever.

But since arena pvp is asynchronous, they could always find you a match with someone roughly your AL, because they can use all players

misty lion
#

And no reason not to.

#

I would also be open to amending this discussion to "Apply BoF house rules to all PvP"

proud prairie
hidden quail
#

Sure other than the time it would take away from developing other content which is the main problem. It's probably not just a switch they can flick to make the change

misty lion
#

That's why I made a discussion about it. Some people seem to be like... offended I guess.

hidden quail
#

It's just that I would say this is a fairly niche request, and while it could probably get done they could probably make more people happy by making updates to territory control or other guilds that they are working on now

misty lion
#

If territory control ends up being reworked the way they said back in Oct or Nov, half the argument for why AL should stay in PvP is gone anyway

hidden quail
#

For a lot of people most of the point of a high AL is to dominate in PVP, so taking that away is probably going to go over poorly

#

They are handling it the same way every game handles new players which is making AL easier to come by over time

misty lion
#

It appears to me that the biggest argument for AL in PvP is mostly territory control. If territory control ends up with this mercenary thing they talked about, that leaves just AI PvP. Who is hurt if you remove AL from both sides of that?

#

It's such a backwards thing. People arguing "Oh but my competitive place in the arena" while also arguing "Oh but arena doesn't matter"

hidden quail
#

The first response in this thread is that AL matters for the reworked terries according to Odie. And bracketing Al for arena makes sense but your original post was pretty hostile

misty lion
#

How so?

misty lion
hidden quail
#

I'll leave that one up to you bud

misty lion
#

And it's going to be bracketed

#

So how is my original post "pretty hostile"?

modest turret
#

Most gear that matters at least

#

I still want to know what class you're playing and you're like 20 AL yeah? Lowest I can do is 10 since I ascended every class to that regardless of if I have ever played it

#

Damage against 100+ al confirmed. I currently have 20 on heretic.

Screenshot_20240520_144041_Orna.jpg Screenshot_20240520_144108_Orna.jpg
#

Didn't run across a single 100+ al opponent in arena so I had to resort to the kingdom

misty lion
#

Then you have better luck in matchmaking than I do.

#

I disagree that gear is time gated like ascensions are. Gear is available the moment you enter your tier. Some gear even before you enter your tier. Accessibility to event gear has been drastically improved with the addition if mini events. Drastically over powered event gear doesn't seem to be as big as issue nowadays either.

misty lion
modest turret
#

Well just have to keep disagreeing I guess. Some of the newest gear is the most OP gear there is with allowing of buffs by pets etc

misty lion
#

Are people using that gear for PvP?

modest turret
#

1 turn DB on warrior classes. 1 turn DC for mages. Any pet cast berserk

#

Yes lol

misty lion
#

Cuz I still only see a handful of builds in PvP

modest turret
#

I 100% 1 turn db on my pvp.

wild cairn
#

I dont have a fey surtr chest... that's very drastic imo

modest turret
#

Then spam db with a pet on top of it

misty lion
wild cairn
#

30% jump is drastic lmao

modest turret
#

He's not talking FYC

#

He's talking FSC

misty lion
#

Yeah I get that

#

And?

modest turret
#

Fsc isn't 3 yrs old...

#

It's like.. not even 1 yr old lol

misty lion
#

Lol really?

#

Surtrs pieces been around for a minute

wild cairn
#

To say a 30% jump isn't massive is wild haha

modest turret
misty lion
#

And the latest one is not a drastic jump over other available chest pjeces.

modest turret
#

50% vs 85% ward

misty lion
#

Tbh I don't know what we are even discussing at this point.

I don't think farming RNG based gear is the same as catching up to high AL players.

modest turret
#

Make a glass cannon build on the classes you enjoy and you can rip through 100 AL. Make a turtle build when you're not pvping

topaz sphinx
#

Probably Mod time to close this thread

misty lion
#

You don't agree with me so... shut my discussion down? Mad respect homie. Solid approach.

sly mauve
#

simple checkbox , easy mode for casual players

timid mason
# misty lion AL are the most literal example of a participation trophy. It's not a skill base...

This is completely false, in the sense that with the same time spent you can do a lot of Al or a few, depending how you play. Gear is more participation trophy actually, at least since even a Morri became a joke to beat fast. I am AL 133 and started christmast 2022, HoA not orna, among the highest in the server. That said I would be ok with no AL in arena, or AL brackets (0-25, 26-49 and so on maybe?). But pvp is bad anyway for the defense AI, as already mentioned, but mostly because it's rewards suck lol. I play the game to minimax efficiency in time spent, IE achieving more than others who put in the same effort. And pvp basically never qualifies. I still have my 25k kills

timid mason
misty lion
#

While AL can be obtained pretty passively from almost any activity

timid mason
#

Took me 1k Rhada kills to get a spiked shield over 190. Which I got from monument.

#

You don't get Al passively already at 35-40. If you don't farm anguish or tower a lot you stop getting the free Al with the inevitable rore/cort block

#

And later you need baseline mat generations which means either a lot of refineries daily (orna) or towers in general

misty lion
#

I probably would have received a lot less flak had I started with "Bracket AL in all PvP" but here we are

timid mason
#

I had my 5 personal towers at 50 in June to give the idea

#

Tower guild lvl 85 currently

#

That's not a participatiom trophy lol

misty lion
#

But at the same time, a player who has just been casually farming, for instance, the fishing guild for the past 3 years

timid mason
misty lion
#

Can amass quite a bit of materials, with relatively little effort

timid mason
#

I am not sure you have an idea how many hours you have to fish to get 10k Cort from that

#

That's for reference is 3 weeks of towers (without accounting for end of floor mats)

misty lion
#

Discord noob - dunno how to do the quoty thing

#

"Daily concious effort"

#

And for real I am not trying to be offensive I just don't know how to word it

timid mason
#

Let me use your fishing example and needing 10k cort

#

That would be 33-34 hours of fishing approx at 6k coral/hour

#

Imagining you have infinite lines from dungeons

misty lion
#

Ok being serious again, you don't think people do that in a week?

timid mason
#

In tower that's 25 hours

#

Except in towers you get 4000 (yes 4000) end of floor rewards as well which is 20 mats each (random)

#

So you fish all year I tower all year

#

I gain say 80 Al you gain maybe 25

#

Same hours spent

#

That's why saying Al is participation alone is silly

#

Now should I autowin in pvp forever because of that? No I am ok with Al just making it faster for me to farm

#

But pvp problems are different

modest turret
timid mason
#

Pvp defense is a joke among many things because you can't set a class/spec/pet/build for it

misty lion
#

Please now, hear me out.

Take either one of those examples. Doesn't matter. Apply it to three years of "Orna"ing. You now have.... 75- 240 AL? Now I know its slightly diminishing over time, but again we have people already in the 200s so its not unfathomable. I am a new (hypothetical-3 years from now) 250. Made it there in a year. I want to do arena, and now have to contend with people at those AL.

timid mason
#

Yes and j said I am ok with bracketing or removing al

#

From arena

misty lion
#

I know I know

#

I'm not arguing with you on that

#

I'm trying to explain the whole reason for this post cuz you just gave like the best example to do it with

timid mason
#

I don't think tiering should happen in T10 though

#

Not by Al at least

#

But in t11 yes

misty lion
#

Because either of those methods, whether fishing quite passively, or actively "try harding" (again not trying to be rude) you right off the bat have a jump on me in the arena

#

And that can and does prohibit me from doing things like dailies and npc quests

timid mason
#

Anyway what wrecked said

misty lion
#

That last bit is from my own actual experience

timid mason
#

Although I think he extremized it

#

Is still true

#

IE in the current silly state of arena you can build to win vs higher Al quite consistently

#

Especially with some classes

#

All you need is to be able to one shot penetrating enough, there are various ways

misty lion
#

I don't disagree, but I also don't agree that that is an accessible or fair PvP environment

#

I know I can go to summoner, throw on my tankiest of tanky whatnot, and hope for a little more success than my other kits

timid mason
#

Anyway to end my contribution, just make an official suggestion only mentioning bracketing by Al range in t11, no whining about Al gaps, and I think it will get a lot of upvotes

#

Beoh would be my suggestion if you have it actually

misty lion
#

I do appreciate you

timid mason
#

As it's easy to get to high enough att/mag with it even at low al

misty lion
#

I do not have BeoH yet, but thats off topic

#

Another thing I thought of... most games have a PvP season that resets in some way or another. That intends to reset the unfair field the long time players have. The playing field needs some kind of maintenance occasionally. Otherwise in the long-term PvP becomes stagnant and isolated. You can't have an infinitely stacking stat boost system without somekind of maintenance or bracketing, its not sustainable.

crisp granite
#

pvp already stagnated for 5yrs, someone is out of the loop it seems like

#

not like it will ever change

plucky hull
#

Heya folks - just a little reminder as I read through this thread:

Discussion threads are a space where it is ok for people to share opinions.
It's not an invitation to be rude to each other, or shut down opposing views.

If you open a discussion thread, you should be ok with folks disagreeing. If you partake in a discussion thread, you should be ok with folks disagreeing. We have to not take offence or bite back sarcastically if people do disagree, lets be kind to each other please.

We'll be happy to lock a thread should it seem to be producing more conflict than productive conversation. Thanks all!

sage coyote
#

As someone who loves pvp but is a "hardcore casual" who has been playing 4 years but still has fewer than 40 ALs in my main class and 20 each in my secondary classes, and who has debated the balance of pvp extensively over the years, I can sympathize with a few points of frustration but I also don't think ALs should go away or even be eliminated in arena. I got what I asked for in BoF arena for a live pvp experience where ALs don't matter. I was initially mixed on the house rules but I came to see the value as they can be changed over time to favor different classes and metas or to nerf OP metas and skills in a limited and controlled way.

#

There will always be players who have the time and learn how to play so efficiently that they rocket to 250 and stack ALs like mad. There are also long time players who have a steady grind and have reach huge ALs. There are resources to explain how to reach those milestones more quickly and efficiently if one is willing to put in the time. The players who do, should be rewarded for that investment, and not just in PvE, or why would any of the senior players keep playing? One doesn't have to do every quest, coliseum is not required, arena is useful for farming greater souls but there are other ways and arena can still be farmed efficiently with no ALs with the right build, BoF exists to provide a more fair PVP live experience, and area control is getting reworked so not worth debating now

#

The suggestion I agree with most is implementing pvp seasons, which is something I've suggested in the past. With seasons, NF could alter the house rules every 3 months to favor certain types of builds and provide a challenge to create a successful build within that framework. It could have a separate seasonal leaderboard with the prizes being a custom title or sprite, a prize pool of proofs, or even unique gear. I've suggested this in the past and it mixed but positive votes IIRC

misty lion
# sage coyote There will always be players who have the time and learn how to play so efficien...

I get the idea, you want to be able to grind and flaunt it, but that is not conducive to a fair PvP environment on the long term. If AL are not bracketed, at the very least, new T11s are eventually just going to give up on the arena because 9/10 opponents have been playing for years and have an obscene number of AL.

Also, just because you think an aspect of the game is not worth playing, that does not invalidate that aspect for others. I use my dailies as a kind of guide for what I'm going to do that day. I also like to do NPC quests... because I do.

The idea that "Oh arena is pointless so who cares" is just a terrible way to approach development and discussion.

PvP seasons don't mean a thing if nothing gets reset but the win counter. The whole point of resets is to level the field. Look at things like WoW pvp seasons. Every season, full reset, new gear.

misty lion
#

I will say, I do really like your idea on rotating house rules to promote different metas. Could be a cool thing. But some might feel like the Devs are dictating playstyle that way.

modest turret
#

You really need to stop exaggerating the amount of high AL players in arena man. It's not as big deal that you're making it out to be. Not a single 100+ al player in 11 opponents. Also, I'm 136 AL and that 18 AL beo tanked me.

sage coyote
#

No one has asked for pvp seasons to be like WoW. Orna doesn't have to copy other games to be good and enjoyable. BoF arena already levels the playing field by not using ALs. The point of seasons would then be to reset the seasonal LB and house rules to provide a different challenge that favors different play styles. If you want a pvp experience where every player is the same level, with no ALs, same gear, pet, etc, set up a private tournament in BoF arena. ABS is doing that where the class is rolled randomly, to include lower tier classes, and we will have to put together a build for it

misty lion
modest turret
#

Yep, but you keep repeating majority of players are over 100 al and it's just not a fact at all lol. It's very, very few that you actually stumble across. Most are 60 or less AL. That's probably being generous

misty lion
# sage coyote No one has asked for pvp seasons to be like WoW. Orna doesn't have to copy other...

I'm not asking for Orna to be like WoW it's an example.

BoF is great but you spend most of the time fighting NPCs. I don't want a PvP where everyone is gray blob. I do want a PvP that goes back to the old purely gear and skill based style we had years ago. That totally would be BoF, but that is just not as active.

And I am still talking about the future. Look at the numbers now. I already encounter people with 100s of AL. What is that going to look like a year from now? 3 years from now? I get that it gets more difficult to AL up as you go, but conversely, the game gets easier as you go as well.

When the casual player gets to 250 a year from now, and they try to do an arena fight, what are they going to fight against?

modest turret
#

Here this one has a 205 AL player. I'm on a purely def build, and he infact has me zeroed out for a long time. Still won 🤷🏻‍♂️. This is also using warden which gives me no benefit in arena. It's coming down to your builds dude. Ppl tell you what to use and you say "but I'm a casual." It's a grinding game and if you don't want to grind you get left behind

misty lion
#

You still haven't read.

modest turret
#

20 seconds in you'll see the 205 AL.

#

I've read. You've been on repeat the entire thread

#

Casual that doesn't wanna grind anything out

misty lion
#

Oh I didn't know right now was a year from now.

modest turret
#

AL will be even easier to get in a year probably. And many of the high AL players will quit the game

#

As most that grind intensely don't last 'cause of burnout

sage coyote
#

I see your point that in the future the number of 100+ and even 200+ AL players will be much bigger. That is a given. It isn't impossible though as Wrecked said, and comes down to builds.

misty lion
#

But is it reasonable? Does it make sense that a fresh T11 should jump in the arena for whatever reason to face 200+ AL? Or a year from now 300+?

sage coyote
#

It was much harder before the release of BoF spec, pumpkinless gear, and rend/epee, HS3, and GS4. Now any decent swash build is almost impossible to zero. That was NF evening the playing field

misty lion
#

Like yeah, this is a grinding game, but it can also be very casually grinded. I have a friend who is approaching 250 and he hardly knows a thing about the game.

hidden quail
#

Bracketing isnt a bad idea, its just that its probably not a priority brother. Removing ALs entirely is a bad idea

misty lion
#

When he does reach 250, and he tries to do arena, he's cooked right off the bat.

hidden quail
#

And I dont know what else you could say about the matter

fickle sleet
#

He's cooked right off because, as you wrote, he hardly knows a thing about the game.

#

Not because he has no ALs.

modest turret
#

You can see low lvl players tank my hits on those videos. You can see me beat someone that has 205 ALs while im using a defensive build and i have no offensive buff besides DC while hes stacked defensively with DC. Tell ppl your class and ask for help on the build, if you don't want to grind out what is useful then there's really nothing else this thread has to offer. The game isn't going to be made easier. BoF is the no AL version of pvp. The number of 100+ al players or higher stumbled across are not detrimental to your 19 wins for the day. You lose to a few players you have to spam attack a few more times 🤷🏻‍♂️

fickle sleet
#

What you are asking for is equalising the results, not the effort.

sage coyote
#

What isn't fair is expecting a fresh t11 to beat a long standing hardcore player that has been grinding for years before they have even put in any work in the endgame. I get making it approachable for newer players but they still have to put in the work and should not expect to beat everyone they come across

misty lion
hidden quail
fickle sleet
#

Let's reverse that argument for a second: why someone that put the effort and time should lose on principle to someone that doesn't put the effort?

misty lion
#

I can't scroll up to the original post, but I do believe I said bracket them first

#

And barring bracketing, remove them.

hidden quail
#

I dont think anyone is going to argue with you on bracketing, but you are being really weirdly aggressive against people who have played the game a lot, and this discord is full of people who have played the game a lot

misty lion
#

I'm sorry, I'm a discord noob I don't know how to get to the top on mobile

#

But I'm pretty sure I said bracketing first

lean siren
#

I think if a fresh 250 goes into the arena a year from now, they will still find other fresh 250s to fight. There's still going to be other new players to fill the pool, along with the dead accounts with low ascensions or no ascensions. There may be more highly ascended players filling the pool by that time, and by that time it might be a reasonable to install a bracket system strictly for ascension. But I don't think removing ascensions would be the right answer. I also think there are major inherent flaws with an ascension bracket system that would need to be addressed

misty lion
#

And I strongly disagree with the idea that any number of high AL players will quit any time soon. I've been here for almost 5 years now just kinda diddling along and I never played a mobile game before.

#

Someone above had also mocked up a toggle on arena screen for AL

modest turret
#

That's the thing. You've been casually diddling along. Most high AL players aren't casual and burnout is going to catch up and in turn they quit. I could pick out 10 ppl on the global 100 that have dropped the game the past few months

misty lion
#

You are 100% focused on me. I'm going to block you soon.

modest turret
#

I mean, it's your thread no?

#

And you've been a brick wall to the majority

misty lion
#

No. You have taken this entire thing like it's my personal complaint. It's my sole issue with arena that's it. I am not talking about me. I am talking about the future of a game that is now around for 6 years.

modest turret
#

But you're ignoring several points lol. But whatever man. Keep hoping it gets easier for the casual

misty lion
#

I am talking about an issue I already see, and I see getting worse in the future. Especially with how the Devs are making it easier and easier to achieve those AL, while also adding new content geared towards those AL.

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But you have just focused on me the entire time and I'm just about done with it.

modest turret
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The easier and easier AL applies across the board though. Not just the high AL players. There is also supposed to be AL 2.0 unless that was dropped with anguish 2.0 reworks, but I doubt it.

misty lion
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Omg how do I go to the top

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Like the top of the thread

modest turret
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Just scroll fast is what I do lmao

misty lion
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Fuuuuuuuuck

modest turret
misty lion
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Nah not doing it. I am pretty damn sure I said bracket first, and barring that, remove them. I gave my reasons. Some of yall just jumped on me cuz I said remove them and you are focused solely on my own experience.

Yes, my experience is part of the idea, but it's something I only see getting worse from here on.

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How the hell did you do that

modest turret
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Scrolled fast. Lol

misty lion
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I think my connection makes loading the msg take too long cuz it was so slow for me

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I should have said bracket em first I suppose.

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But whatever, I still means what's i sais

lean siren
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I don't think most people would be opposed to a bracket system for ascensions if the kinks were worked out. I don't know if some of them can be, though

misty lion
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I don't know what they could be either. Imo, if they couldn't be bracketed ATM, remove them or provide a separate environment for them.

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Probably should have put that idea up there too

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Like... I like to do arena. Sometimes I just do it just to see what I see. Since hitting 250 I constantly encounter guys that just negate anything I'm doing. It sucks, and forces me to have to use some specific build just to beat some high AL player. Something you can't expect every casual to do, or be able to do for that matter

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BoF us great, but it's kinda dead for me, and the NPCs don't count for nadda.

modest turret
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You did mention bracketing there, but when removal of AL is mentioned that becomes the target because most people are not in favor. One day they may bracket it, but who knows. Guess it depends on how big of a rework that is. It could be implemented into the conquerors guild. But expecting fresh t11 players/casual to be on the same level as people who have invested a lot of time causes an uproar. Why do you think summoners are so hated? Nearly no investment needed especially when it was first released and murdered pvp. Shot a lot of ppl in the foot that invested a lot of time in it and it was shit

misty lion
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And most importantly, what are your expectations for AL in the future? If I have already encountered arena opponents close to or at 200, what is that going to be in the future?

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I don't expect them to be on the same level, just to have a fair environment to play in, one that enables them to engage with other aspects of the game.

modest turret
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Well there's supposed to be an AL rework. Maybe we won't get a full 1% for every level. Or maybe it'll be 1% and taper off the higher you get and flatline at some point of a percentage

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They haven't brought up AL 2.0 in like... idk over 6 months. So I don't know where that sits or if it's even on the table anymore

misty lion
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Well I'm glad we could come to some kind of understanding

modest turret
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The way pvp sits, you really need a glass cannon build. It doesn't even have to be the best and it'll improve your wins against higher AL players. Ask for some help on builds for whatever class it is you're using and people will be willing to help you out and work with the gear you have if you show it to them. If you're not on orna legends discord I would recommend it. You'll get lots of build help there

misty lion
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Oh personally I know what I could do I just don't like doing it, and I don't think it's fair to expect random casuals reaching 250 to just go look all this stuff up.

modest turret
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Fair, but if you don't want to look it up and you don't want to try out different stuff yourself either that just leads to this frustration of not being able to beat certain people. I might smack 200k on a player with x amount of AL and zero on the next player that's the exact same class and AL. Builds do unfortunately have to be changed to see results on different players lol

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At least the addition of all passives/stats % in game should help making builds be a bit less tedious

hidden quail
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And chosing to not run a meta build against strong players is just asking for trouble

quasi light
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Tbf is 250 really a random casual unless you're in someone's backpack

misty lion
misty lion
# hidden quail And chosing to not run a meta build against strong players is just asking for tr...

Two issues I see with that

You can't just expect players hitting 250, or even 225 for that matter, to just have gear and classes available to build specific things to beat specific people.

Going into the arena and encountering players with that kind of power is only going to push people away from the arena. Answers like "eh arena doesn't really matter anyway" and "you don't HAVE to do arena" don't promote any engagement to begin with.

quasi light
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There's only 3100 t11 if the arena opponents number is accurate. That's a very small subset of players who likely have well over 100 hours of playtime.

misty lion
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Idk I think it's much easier to level now, and I like to tell myself orna is growing. I like to think we will see more players grow and reach T11 more frequently.

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And I still don't think, regardless of how fast we're growing or how many people are there, that's it's fair for players reaching T10/11 to have to contend with those high AL

hidden quail
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Doing good at pvp takes an investment, it's not reasonable to expect to do great as soon as you enter a tier

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It's not required at all

misty lion
sly mauve
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I usually give my respect to these high AL players, who have spent far more time than me to being powerful.

But at the same time, I will try my best to make a build that can take them down. That's the moment when my skill overcomes their time invested.

crisp granite
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is the tldr of the thread now just someone having a massive pvp skill issue