#A lack of skill variety is the largest problem in T10/T11 Orna.

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long tusk
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A lack of skill variety is the largest problem in T10/T11 Orna.

A recurring problem for a long time now is the lack of skill variety in tier 10 and tier 11 of Orna. I think Odie and the Northern Forge team have done a great job of diversifying armor, and I know they are working on diversifying weapons again after Celestials caused everything outside of farming to become homogenous.

In this post I'd like to break down why I think skill usage has become so homogenous for each piece of content, and I'll also point out places where variety does manage to have room to shine since I want to be clear that it does exist and has room to exist in Orna.

Towers

One of the clearest examples of the current staleness in skills is towers. Melee players use Chained Shield. Magic players use Ara Vesta 2. That is basically the fully story; if you're not using one of those skills it's likely because you either haven't unlocked them or can't get your ward high enough for CS to be effective.

Chained Shield has been a common offender in multiple of these discussion threads, but for this one I'm looking at a different angle. Unlike most skills, Chained Shield requires a very specific loadout to be good; one with very high ward and reasonable attack. This leaves Chained Shield builds to be very inflexible, without room to let gear variety shine. You exclusively need high ward equipment to use CS and other equipment just won't cut it without a silly amount of ascension.

(I will shout out Omnus for creating a highly effective build based around Collateral damage, which is an excellent way to create variety! However it's only relevant for Gilgamesh since other classes don't have built-in 'chained' damage passives)

Horde Dungeons

This one is honestly nothing new. In horde dungeons players will either use Mage's Dance or Sweep depending on if they're mages or melee users. An honorable mention can go to Amadan's Staff and Bricriu's Bow for creating some variety in this space, but most of the other AoE skills see little to no use.

Raiding

Credit where credit is due, if we ignore Ultima and Ultima strikes then raiding has a lot of 2nd tier skills that make fun raiding builds. Unfortunately it's no mystery to anyone that Ultima and Ultimastrikes are strictly the highest damage skills to use if you build into them. The Ultima discussion has been beaten into the ground, so I won't go into it more, but it warranted mentioning.

The key for raiding is that a bunch of skills nearly as good as the top skills, which means players are comfortable not following the meta and experimenting to have fun.

High Anguish

Our old friend Chained Shield rears it's ugly head again. Like mentioned earlier, Chained Shield's strict build requirements leave little room for creativity on top of being stuck using a single skill. In Anguish this is additionally compounded by Chained Shield's low static miss chance bypassing the boosted dexterity of Anguished enemies.

I know quadratic ascension scaling is being addressed in Anguish 2.0, but that's only one of Chained Shield's detrimental effects on the meta by being the sole melee 'chained damage' skill.

I will be honest, I don't know how non-summoner mages run Anguish 50 so I can't comment on variety there 😅

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A lack of skill variety is the largest problem in T10/T11 Orna.

wintry rivet
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I made a suggestion a long time ago about Multi-hit skills actually hitting multiple times instead of being flavor.

As a revision of that, what if say...the Tri-Cut skill family actually hit [X] amount of times but if the target is killed by the first hit, then subsequent hits will be dealt to the next weakest foe?

long tusk
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Proposed Solutions

I'll collect proposed solutions here, to show ideas that people have had for helping increase skill variety. Hopefully they can help inspire change.

  • Introduce mutli-hit overflow to some skills
  • Basically, if the first hits of certain multi-hit skills kill an enemy, additional hits would go onto another enemy
  • Credit: #1239997470285627495 message
  • More Aoe/Chained skills with build-around downsides
  • Things like a powerful skill always being Arcane damage, causing recoil damage, or having a negative crit multiplier.
  • Gear that better enables strategy variety
  • I'm aware the team already does this, but it could be explored further toward creating skill variety
  • The fomorian Sumner items that can chain damage are a good example, but they're only a 5% chance per piece - too low to actually build around that aspect of them.
  • Balance existing AoE skills/spells with better upsides and downsides
  • The lack of skill variety is often coming from one or two skills being better in **every **way, rather than better in **some **ways with tradeoffs.
  • #1239997470285627495 message
tardy abyss
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T11 versions of the honorable mention offhands, shameful that doesn't exist yet.

long tusk
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I'd argue the versions that exist now are T11 versions, since T11 is how powerful you need to be for them to clear dungeon floors

raw temple
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More than skills, it's the gameplay loop that is repetitive. Top tier gear is always the same, gameplay loop is always buff -> spam the same attack until everything is dead. Most of the skills available can be read as "deal damage".
I like what NF did with Beo because they've 3 classes that plays differently and multiple gameplay options and gear.
Worst classes being probably heretic which is spam ultima since a billion years.
RS is quite the same but avidity opened some paths. Deity too if we take apex into account (even if it's still in a rough shape).
Gilga and GS are somewhere in the middle.

Potential solutions :

  • More gear/spell interaction with some of them really changing your gameplay (like legendaries from diablo).
  • Skills combo.
  • Making sure that celestials aren't played the same (which is currently being addressed but not to the extend of beo in most cases)
delicate sandal
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Sure but if we want to scope this discussion thread to just skills and not have it spill over to “the entire game needs work”

raw temple
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This is the same issue. You can remove ultima from the game and it wouldn't change much. Player will chose the next best damage skill and spam it.
You can't add skill variety by just adding more skills. You need to change the reason why player's are only playing a few of them.

novel anchor
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I was voicing my doubt on SS/CS rework today: my main concern is that the quadratic scaling, even if unfair, is the lesser problem.

Fixed hit chance is what makes it almost essential, given how crazy dex scaling is with anguish

novel anchor
raw temple
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that's just talking ultima, not the skill varity. There're 2 clear outliers in the game rn but that's not the only issue IMO

novel anchor
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And probably is the main offender

long tusk
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I don't know mage stuff, but for raiding on melee these are all viable just technically worse than Ultimastrikes with comparable DPS to each other:

  • Spiked Shield
  • Rend / Daggers
  • Realm Strikes (2)
  • Horizontal Slash 3
novel anchor
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Does US ignore immunities as ultima?

raw temple
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for me "choose one and spam without specifically invert in it" is not a solution to skill variety. maybe I'm just not understanding the topic which sounds to be yet another rant about ultima and CS.

long tusk
novel anchor
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That's a more interesting skill than ultima then, anyway maybe adding quirk to op skills so you have to play around them might be a solution?

raw temple
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The only thing I will say is that in an ideal world, when you ask yourself "which skill should I pick" the answer should be "because it does that or I've this item that make it does this" and not just "because it has more damage". Then you've variety.

night ibex
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I tried using the shadowed strikes from Nyx Hercules, but they get completely negated by any 1 of 3 immunities -- dark, physical, or basic matching element.

twilit jacinth
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Ok I do disagree. You unlock more & more until you've unlocked it all at T11 + towers.

the "lack of variety" is I think an illusion. No stats or counter to boast for time spent petrifying mobs, for using time or fire magic, for spending time building a dream T6 gear set on a T11 toon.

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no pvp advantage to be gained by getting lvl 100 angler's guild. etc

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I think it would be amazing to be able to select a personal Tier restriction, as well as increase or decrease Ascension at the Alter of Ascension

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  • comprehensive stats tracking, even if I have to visit a special building to view them
twilit jacinth
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  • kindgom matchmaking based on chosen tiers! + stats and ladders for each tier
analog yoke
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For towers I think we definitely need another multi target skill like Cleave for Melee.

For raids i think if they buffed the beguiled X weapons that could open up more builds.

Horde dungeons is a strange beast that seems very intentionally tied to specializations so i am not sure what would match the NF goals.

sly cloak
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Horde dungeons are to some extent optional, but it can be a bit frustrating to not be able to run monuments effectively without a specific spec. There’s whole guild dedicated to monuments that can only be leveled by killing things in monuments, and that guild is much easier to level for certain specs than others. (Especially at tiers less than 10, it’s basically “ZF” or “Summoner”; there’s not too much else that can reliably level the monumental guild.)

next matrix
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As a Heretic, after I started using HCorvus' magical Chakram, it became my main skill for raids, since I don't worry about immunity or resistance with it, and it has greater damage than vesta 2... But I use Chakram, Vesta 2 and Gale Seal 3 mainly to invade

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I think that in raids, there's a good variety, and I'd rather use the Heretic's 240 skills than use Ultima

twilit jacinth
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i am having no problem w monument as necro/tamer T8, and only sometimes problem as blademaster/beastmaster T6

sly cloak
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They’re a headache for me as a mage. I can take out most mobs in 1 spell. A few take more. But at best that means in a horde of 3 monsters you’re getting hit 3-4 times if you take out enemies one at a time. That’s not always survivable. (And if you take a turn to buff at the start, add 3 additional attacks taken.)

To bring it back to the topic of this thread, AoE spells are absolutely not worth using. I can do 2-4k damage per turn with ST spells, but when spread among multiple targets my best AoE spells do 350 damage per target.

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Not the best-timed shot, and it’s from a memory hunt not a monument—but it’s what I have handy and it’s clear enough to be understandable.

This…isn’t useful.

IMG_2638.png
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(That shot was taken Sunday afternoon. Level 184, Mag stat around 1150 before T.Mag⬆️⬆️⬆️.)

light hawk
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Yeah, it is incredibly hard to find a niche for a split-damage elemental AoE when non-split non-elemental Mage's Dance exists

dense robin
queen charm
long tusk
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Players at lower tiers have completely different concerns, and at tier 10 and especially 11, I can promise you there are zero issues killing every enemy with a mage's dance.

sly cloak
# long tusk I apologize, but you may want a different discussion if you were looking to disc...

My intent was to agree with @analog yoke’ statement about horde-clearing being tied to specs. Mage’s Dance is a t7 skill, after all, not a t10 skill; it’s just one tied to a specific spec, and not accessible without that spec. That reduces skill variety by essentially requiring a specific skill (and thus a specific spec)—which I’d thought was the point of this discussion. But I do apologize if I’ve misunderstood. I’ll step out.

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I feel like @light hawk seems to have understood my point, and it wasn’t a point “about mid tiers” to the exclusion of t10 and t11. But I acknowledge I may not have made that point well.

long tusk
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Ah, that's not what I really got out of your message, sorry. In Orna's lategame horde dungeons are definitely not optional, and many players would consider monuments to be the thing that's completely optional. You had said AoE spells are "absolutely not worth using" as a blanket statement, which is just a midgame thing.

I don't personally have an issue with true AoE always being locked to either specs or offhands - there are a ton of almost good AoE skills locked to a wide variety of specs. My only issue would be what 0x8f said - those skills are all significantly worse than Mage's Dance and Sweep because they both split damage and have additional elemental downsides.

I think the other spec locked AoE spells would be better contenders if they had smaller downsides or at least some sort of upside to balance their elemental/splitting downsides.

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The lack of skill variety is often coming from one or two skills being better in every way, rather than better in some ways with tradeoffs.

sly cloak
light hawk
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To be fair I'd like to experiment with spec-less AoE from Maji (and specfically only this one) a bit. If you are sacrificing a spec for an AoE, there is no reason to do that for Maji when Bard and even Chronomancer (which also has split-damage AoE, but not elemental and having a chance to lock down an opponent) exist.

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A precedent had already been set with Dynasty Gear granting access to skills, perhaps trading a gear slot for access to those skills could be suitable?

sly cloak
# light hawk A precedent had already been set with Dynasty Gear granting access to skills, pe...

Honestly, I feel like this is a good idea. I feel like the design philosophy seems to have been that equipment will be swapped around to suit the content but that classes and to a lesser degree specs (and, I’m told according to a previous statement from Odie himself, followers) are not equipment.

Obviously that ideal is malleable and will never be fully achieved—nor, probably, should it be. (See: Swapping to Warden whenever not doing content that requires a certain other spec, to better protect one’s territory.) And other than Odie’s apparent statement about followers, this is all sort of my intuition from having spent years freelancing in game-design-adjacent roles; I don’t actually know any of this, and I don’t presume to speak for the devs when they’re fully capable of speaking for themselves if they choose to. But to me, if a certain skill is required (or “required”) for certain content, having it be tied to equipment would certainly seem preferable to having it tied to a spec.

Or maybe I’m just barking up the wrong tree again. That’s always likely.

trail latch
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Moving the skills you use away from specs doesn't open up variety imo. It just moves your spec to oracle (for more damage or farming boosts). And just shifts the lack of variety else where

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Then there's also no trade off to the more damage/farming boosts. Since you get both those and the skill(s) you want

long tusk
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In a perfect world, I think something like the following could be true:

For mages:

  • Charmer
  • Non-splitting, non-elemental AoE with wild damage variance
  • [Basically the current state, though it's powerful enough that non-splitting makes it better]
  • Maji
  • High damage elemental AoE, which is an upside and downside
  • [Currently middling damage]
  • Chronomancer
  • Medium damage non-elemental AoE with time magic shenanigans
  • [Currently middling to low damage]
  • Amadan's Staff
  • Low/mid damage non-elemental splitting AoE that frees up the spec slot
  • [Current state. Fairly balanced]
  • Ara Vesta II
  • High damage 'chained' AoE that isn't spec locked
  • [Current state. Balanced by not always hitting extra enemies and only hitting two enemies max.]
  • Potential additional options?
  • I think mage has a good array of AoE options, they just don't come in at similar power levels. If they did it's easy to see a lot more variety in this space.

For melee:

  • Zweifencer
  • Non-splitting melee AoE that will inherit weapon elements
  • [Current state, sweep is already weaker than Mage's dance]
  • Ranger
  • Splitting melee AoE that will inherit weapon elements.
  • [Could likely use some kind of improvement. Right now Arrowstorm both splits damage and has high damage variance, making it all around worse than sweep.]
  • Bricriu's Bow
  • Low/mid damage splitting melee AoE that will inherit weapon element.
  • [Current state. Fairly balanced]
  • Chained Shield
  • High damage 'chained' AoE that isn't spec locked, but is locked to ward builds.
  • [This does have a tradeoff, but one skill with a big tradeoff without alternatives is what kills variety. And it also has the upside of low static miss chance brought up earlier that causes homogeny.]
  • Alternative 'chained' or unique multi-hit attack?
  • Moderate to high damage, likely inherits weapon element like other melee attacks. Alternatively could be forced Physical element for the sake of a downside.
  • Allows something other than narrow chained shield builds to be used
  • Potential other splitting or unique AoE attacks on specs?

I also want to be clear - I absolutely am not asking for power creep. I want things that are currently much worse than the status quo to instead be either on par or only slightly worse but more interesting than the status quo.

nimble bloom
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cleave when

light hawk
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cleave when

raw temple
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Hope we don't get a period of time where CS is nerfed on none gilga and cleave does not exists.

sly cloak
# long tusk In a perfect world, I think something like the following could be true: For mag...

I like this! Particularly, my favorite style of play is "elementalist," so I lean toward Maji-style specs. Elemental attacks should have drawbacks; some things resist certain elements, so choosing the proper element is important. It's a style of play that, in its ideal form, rewards experimentation, planning, codexing, and "knowing thy enemy." I know it may not be the most popular style of play but I also know I'm not the only person who finds it fun and rewarding.

In practice, right now it just kinda sucks compared to non-ele options. I'd love to see that be improved, and I think this breakdown is a really good way of giving the different styles of play their own identities!

light hawk
sly cloak
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I haven't been able to try any of the beta stuff, so I'm reliant on reports from others in that regard. :(

dense robin
shadow lagoon
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Orna has, in my humble opinion, shifted gradually towards horde based content over the last few years. Which I think is great. However, I dont think the available skill pool to help us undertake the content has necessarily kept up with that. So i would totally be in favor of some kind of rework to add a bit more variety.

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Also, Knight411 for Orna President.

Also also, please dont nerf CS. I have found one of the great small pleasures in life is making double barreled comic books sounds when using CS.

Ker-Thwack!
Pa-Pow!
Su-Blam!

delicate sandal
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Cleave when

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Hopefully not off track from pure skill discussion but we continue to see gear utilized to fill some design space for skill access and affecting skills,

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I’d like to see an aoe gear set more buff than our current formor one that (perhaps) only works with single target skills and when wearing 3 pieces maybe you are up to something like 30-40 chance for aoe proc to an additional target

nimble bloom
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who called

twilit jacinth
twilit jacinth
long tusk
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Because, quite simply, they are not.

In the current game multi-hit skills stack with both of those passives, just as multi-hit skills stack with collateral damage.

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I didn't bring class passives into this intentionally, aside from shouting out Omnus's cool build

twilit jacinth
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I definitely think they need to revisit skills from T1+ and redistribute which can do horde dmg and which are solo, two target, etc.

but the lack of variety? is still, IMO, just from lack of goal like "ascend"

for me anguish has been totally optional, so far anyway. maybe Im not endgame enough?

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Fuximus did a whole thing on his Beo "T" wave clearing in dungeons where you have the player kill low hp mobs and pet hit the high hp one, or the other way around

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but idk i still enjoy single mob dungeon

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am i doing it wrong?

long tusk
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There's nothing wrong with single mob dungeons, and they're not mentioned in my post because you can use whatever skills you want to build around in there

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I listed T10/T11 activities that lack variety at T10/T11, which is largely the variety of the game's horde content that's very valuable to progression.

twilit jacinth
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but the (enormous) title is "in orna"

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and "valuable to progression" is the metric we're using?

long tusk
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Valuable to progression, done by the most amount of players, most commonly talked about

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This discussion post didn't come out of nowhere

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Yes, the title is a little provocative, but I don't believe it's wrong. Just ask the multiple other locked discussion threads on Chained Shield

twilit jacinth
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i think pursuing ascension and horde dungeons is a choice tho, "progression" becomes voluntary at lvl 250

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and I think ascension, and horde mode are reinforced by the ladder formula, but i think there's an easy way to fix that -- add a ladder for each guild

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suddenly you have multiple measured progression metrics

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maybe they need to add incentive too, cause right now the biggest incentive for progress is kingdom war and territory control -- which give you orns for k raid and status on the map that only GRPG can provide.

so something like special temples, war buffs, k.raid buffs, boons for kingdom based on member activity might be necessary, but not like, more skills that we get to pick one of to deal dmg, cause all the other skill slots have buffs

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what about a k.raid that unlocks not with Orn but with # of fish caught by members

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and gives gear that increases strength of your fishing line

next matrix
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Going from "how some skills monopolize some content" to "fishing line and kingdom" seems like a sudden change, I missed some messages, but what happened here?😅

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Orna is constantly changing, month by month we have new or reworked things and often we have an increase in the difficulty of super raids or missions, I would say that all of this is only completed by us, because we have ascension, and it has filled a gap that was created between the difficulty of the content and the efficiency/usefulness of the skills

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We will have changes in the guild of anguish and in the asc soon, so I imagine that many skills, like those listed before as medium and low power, will lose even more space

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So perhaps, items like Amadam's staff will lose the small space they have in horde content

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These skills would need to be improved to the point where they remain an option close to the best skills like Mage's Dance, or else Mage's Dance would need a Nerf

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And here when I say buff or Nerf, I'm not just referring to the numbers of the skill itself, but also its restrictions regarding class, specialization and equipment.

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I think this would also apply to other content... As an example, if Ultima was linked to equipment, the best ability for invasion would have an additional requirement to be used, for me that would be a nerf

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Perhaps this will become the means by which other skills can compete

analog yoke
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I think the main point that Knight is trying to make is that as you ascend and as you collect the best gear and great amities etc....The more you get into the end game, the less variety there are in skills that you use and how similar builds look for different players doing content like Towers and Horde dungeons in particular.

I think its a perfectly reasonable request to ask for some more options.

twilit jacinth
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@next matrix your solution to "the optimal solution space for doing damage to hordes lacks variety" seems to be "add a restriction to some of the solutions in this space, so that they become less optimal"

whereas, with fishing and etc, my solution was "increase the areas in which players feel compelled to optimize, from horde and ascension, to include at least all the guilds, and possibly more"

next matrix
next matrix
twilit jacinth
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well if we're all only trying to solve horde dungeon so we get mats for ascension, it's very reasonable to see a small optimal solution set develop

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cause orna players are smart n all

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but if we have (hypothetically) k.raid which drop items that are good for a specific guild activity, like Arisen Manannon dropping a bait accessory, and you need to unlock it not by orns from k.war but coral, donated from members

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and a ladder that shows kingdom rank by best fisherman stats and # of manannon killed

next matrix
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More options would only be something that would solve, but any of the other 2 points would as well

twilit jacinth
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then well have some kingdoms which do kraid for manannon, and its members may safely ignore ascension

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but maybe thats too crazy. i am somewhat crazy

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i feel like orna has a tiger by the tail, tho

next matrix
twilit jacinth
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global or regional individual guild ranking ladders would also go a long way to diversify player actions I think, without any other change, but maybe theres data to prove that wrong

next matrix
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If you already have a group or relationship with other players, a kingdom is unnecessary, so you don't get stuck

analog yoke
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By realms do you mean kingdoms?

next matrix
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Yep

analog yoke
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I was incredibly confused for awhile thinking you meant Other Realms

next matrix
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Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to, error on my part when translating

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Realms actually seem to be used often for RealmShifter and Other Realms... In my mother tongue we usually use abbreviations for these

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Sometimes even English abbreviations, like AW or OR. OR "Outros Reinos" This is more common because it is more similar to the original

analog yoke
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its all good man : )

sly cloak
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Off topic but I've been a part of a lot of gaming communities and this one is really great in how misunderstandings can almost always be talked out and corrected without anyone becoming...well, for lack of a better term, butthurt.

next matrix
sly cloak
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I was just saying in the global chat today: I can count on one hand the number of people I've met who I'd classify as "toxic," and I'd have a couple fingers left over

wintry rivet
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I remembered this suggestion that was posted a little while ago and thought it should be shared here:

#💡│suggestions message

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Basically, it suggests giving some skills/spells an effect that temporarily disables passive abilities.

cold steeple
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i think some skills that are obtained at 245-250 would be nice they don't have to be Damage Skills, but rather Active Skills that give passives, or even just unlocked passive skills, kinda sad that all classes except deity and GS stop getting skills at 240 (and gilga at 235).

at the moment my experience as heretic was reach 240 to use the Fey Elementals in the Raids, and then work my way to 245 to ultima and never hear of Ele skills again. I just recently unlocked Corvus so i haven't tried Chakram or Celestial Arrow.

The beguilled X weapon gave me some hope to use the Faction Spells instead of only ultima. and I did some tests from Ultima Vs. Fey -ele- V and it was going a nice direction but i haven't got an Ornate Weapon to test it better :p. (i would reduce Fey Recoil Elemental to 2-turns).

Also now that Heretic identity is on the way, i think the class could receive some AoE either passive or spells, but that's just my fanatism for Mages and AoEs :p.

zinc spruce
urban wolf
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The spiked shield line, Ultima, and AoE options represent the biggest issues to me. All for different reasons.

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Without having read previous opinion here

solid dragon
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Can we learn cleave as realmies ?

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When my blood dog does it it's pretty nifty

cold steeple
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actually Ara Sigils could make a lit of variaty to Heretic playstyle, they just suck because they worn-off and the "strong" skill take a lot of time for build-up, guess it make sense for being a side-grade class and a lvl 230 spells.