#Spiked shield skill-line discussion

1613 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

versed basin
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Need a phone case for SS

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I’m out here raw dogging my phone

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No case

steel wing
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If phone breaks congrats you did a crit irl 👏

steady breach
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the suggestions in this thread look like a way to murder gilga's only viable playstyle 😐

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ngl

crisp nexus
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I don't think CS is the problem

steel wing
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Lmao your pfp is gold

crisp nexus
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It eats 30% of ward

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The problem is all the ward regen

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That allows this nonsense spamming

steel wing
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Cs shouldn't be eating 30% ward

humble reef
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When all classes have OP things of their own, it's cool, just power creep things, but when only 1 thing is wayyy above the rest, then it's a problem

crisp nexus
abstract dirge
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-suggest move 5% static miss rate to gilgamesh, off of spike shield etc,

steel wing
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Only ss3 does

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And cs=ss2 but psuedo aoe

crisp nexus
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It eats double ward if it hits two people tho

steel wing
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Iirc ss2 eats 15% so 30% on a 2 targets

red eagle
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extra cs hit eats ward though

steel wing
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Make ward regen less effective on non gilgas 😈

crisp nexus
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There we go

humble reef
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People, for the last time. Nerfing CS for everyone except gilgas doesn't solve the problem of CS

crisp nexus
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The problem is too many people have their nose in gilga business

abstract dirge
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we have solved that problem and moved on

crisp nexus
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Gilga can do anguish and towers good. It loses in endless and pvp in exchange

abstract dirge
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you fight Oronaut or Big Forg in pvp and win

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gl

crisp nexus
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That's gursa

humble reef
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Gursa is still Gilga

humble reef
polar lodge
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It depends on your definition of problem I suppose. If the problem is "Every class is using CS" then nerfing it for everyone other than Gilga does solve the problem.

humble reef
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The "problem" that I reference there is not that all classes classes are using CS, but that CS is currently overpowered

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The fact that all classes are using CS is just an effect of CS being way better than anything else by some significant margin (Obviously on the cases it's being used)

polar lodge
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I both agree and disagree

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😄

humble reef
crisp nexus
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Whatever happens I think it should impact late game performance but not so much earlier AL CS

polar lodge
crisp nexus
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CS at low AL is not grossly op

steel wing
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Yeah cause every class is using it
If you remove cs 95% hit rate other classes can go their way to have psuedo aoe except realm and melee players but then gilga wouldn't be hitting anything and 95% hit rate doesn't bypass pet blocks,mystic feather or even status effects like blind and rune of eos (though they are the same thing)freeze,stun, paralyze

crisp nexus
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Maybe remove 95% hit rate for all non gilga classes

dense bone
crisp nexus
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Give gilga passive ability called skilled shield or something

humble reef
crisp nexus
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That allows it to have the good hit rate

crisp nexus
steel wing
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And bof

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Don't forget that part

crisp nexus
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But yeah that was celestial class, celestial weapon, and all BiS event exclusives at over 190 quality

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Perfect setup

polar lodge
humble reef
crisp nexus
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None of us normal low level gilgas are even coming CLOSE to that insanity

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That performance is probably closer to 30AL of a normal gilga

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Still very impressive

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And goes to show power of CS in that type of content though

humble reef
polar lodge
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That is an extremely skilled player in the best gear with a spec that is not easy to come by. And he got lucky as hell at least 2 times in that videod run

humble reef
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When defeats overcome easily the other's skills defeats, AND the success is way easier and higher to get, I see a problem with it

crisp nexus
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I think it's possible for a different class to do it killing one enemy at a time. Say dorado BoF

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With a single target skill

polar lodge
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So yes, it CAN be done, it is far from the norm though

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Ohh and he didn't hit a single berserk after Floor 16

soft turtle
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you just called bwubble extremely skilled, bwahahaha

polar lodge
soft turtle
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smoll head might swoll up

humble reef
crisp nexus
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I think it's possible

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But like here you need absolutely perfect gear/spec/class/weapon/experienced player

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Or just go GS 😂

humble reef
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I hope it's possible, but how would you compare CS sucess to that other build's success? Which one is easier? Which one is more consistent, even with the shortcomings?

humble reef
crisp nexus
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GS doesn't need it

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Can use summons

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They have videos of GS in like full orns gear doing Ang 50

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Which no other class can do afaik

humble reef
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I'm sure they can, but even if a class can do ang50 without CS, still doesn't mean CS is overpowered

crisp nexus
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Which suggested change are you advocating for again?

humble reef
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I don't care at all if this gets done or not, but I think that the changes for now should be the following:

  • Reduce miss chance and Fix it upwards (meaning you can't use bbond accuracy, amities, or riftrogue gear to reduce it)
  • Remove quadratic scaling and adjust M1/M2 as needed
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I can't and won't say any numbers because honestly NF would do a better job addressing those

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Obviously, if it becomes underpowered i'd suggest buffing it in other certain aspects

crisp nexus
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Yeah that all makes sense.

abstract dirge
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no man, you missing the point

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scaling is fine for gil, its that there's no trade off between offensive power and defensive power for using CS or SS

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you get both, always, and if you build ward regen, you can have both even without gilga

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the ward consumption hurts gilga SS the most, so it should be a different debuff

polar lodge
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Fluk, what class do you primarily play out of general curiousity?

abstract dirge
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he's RS

humble reef
humble reef
abstract dirge
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at the risk of sounding like a broken record, ive advocated for stuff like

  • t.absorb debuff (50%? 75% non-valor??)
  • gil/valor exclusive 5% miss rate
  • maybe link dmg to another stat, like it was adjusted to require more attack stat; me I'd try experimenting with current-hp-%
polar lodge
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And even then there is a trade off because you have to choose a lower overall damage value to get that ward regen

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So you ARE in fact trading offense for defense

abstract dirge
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Ok, if I have the option of building more ward regen, or another 15% ward

polar lodge
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And honestly you could buff def and res to almost 0 and it doesn't matter since most people are already running Gunnr and Bear's anyway. The ward regen is the problem

abstract dirge
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lets say, i have 10% ward regen, and i gotta choose

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15-20% more ward, or +4% ward regen

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well, if I build 20% more ward, I get 2% ward regen for free

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so obviously im going to do that

stark dragon
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Is drastically nerfing ward regen something the gilga community would even be OK with?

That quickly spirals to far more than just chained shield, and can't easily be done to affect only non gilga classes using CS

abstract dirge
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non gil classes get their power from other-than-current-ward-%

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so the only class that this affects is gil

stark dragon
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No?

polar lodge
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Then again I also don't think Anguish 50 Horde should be an option for anyone in the game at this point

crisp nexus
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If ward Regen gets a hard nerf I'd like to keep cs as it is bc gilga will need everything it can get. Ward Regen extends to and affects all aspects of gameplay, endless , pvp, dungeons, raids, towers

abstract dirge
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ward regen is necessary cause of the amount of dmg high tier stuff can dish

stark dragon
crisp nexus
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Nobody should be able to Ang 50? I guess nerf all classes then 😂

stark dragon
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I just don't want gilga community pitchforks for any change that also spirals to SS3 and the like

polar lodge
stark dragon
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He didn't want anybody clearing anguish 50

abstract dirge
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t.absorb debuff on SS makes sense to me as a first step

crisp nexus
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We will have pitchforks and fire if you guys wreck all of our skills 😂

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Absorb debuff?

stark dragon
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Now it obviously didn't work out that way, but it is a goal the studio is already aligned with, which makes moving towards that goal easier

abstract dirge
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yes

polar lodge
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Even adding some HP scaling to Anguish would make teh difficulty ramp up a great deal

crisp nexus
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Also what wrong with SS?

stark dragon
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I think SS is fine

abstract dirge
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and current HP scaling would follow that cause if you SS, you open to counterplay cause I can lower your hp

stark dragon
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Hence trying to find things that affect CS, but not SS, is hard

crisp nexus
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SS is gilga only pvp/raid option and it's really not op at all compared to stuff like ultima

stark dragon
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I agree - my point was that changing ward regen for the sake of CS also affects SS. I fully expect that to be wildly unpopular. Hence me asking strahd about it

undone magnet
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To all the gilgas who would ever complain about SS3 not hitting as hard on gilga as other classes:

Ultima/strikes arguably hits harder on other classes besides deity
Av2 arguably hits harder on beoh than heretic
You get the point.
There are inherent tradeoffs between classes. Steadfast/last chance/ base stats / etc. etc.

The biggest issue creating literally 0 tradeoffs is the flat miss chance on SS3/CS imo.

abstract dirge
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if youre base gil, and you have 200k ward, and a.morri is about to ult, but your current ward is full, have you ever paused even for a moment before smashing SS2-3?

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i have not

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every time that ward is full im SS'ing

crisp nexus
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The gilga will have pitchforks. You better give them some kind of buff also if you nerf all ward Regen.

undone magnet
abstract dirge
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but if t.absorb debuff on SS, I might go for a bastion or sharpen

deft scaffold
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the pitchforks will miss, nothing to be scared of.

crisp nexus
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Raids will become a nightmare bc you are constantly battling between ward Regen for damage taken, and the now uphill battle to get skills off/compensate.

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Nobody wants to spend three turns casting WoO for every turn attacking

abstract dirge
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yes i agree

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regen feels good

polar lodge
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Best cheapest shards you'll ever spend

stark dragon
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There is a world where chained shield eats more ward than other SS options, to offset any changes to ward regen

undone magnet
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Or 2 turn a DB2 with new gear

crisp nexus
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It kinda kinda already does tho bubble

stark dragon
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Yeah I knkw

crisp nexus
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30% is a lot

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What do you want? 40? 50?

polar lodge
abstract dirge
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is absorb debuff off limits then?

stark dragon
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So if we nerfed ward regen universally for everybody through augment and amity reductions.

Leave current chained shield consumption alone

Reduce current consumption for other SS skills by X%

Or just buff the base gilga recovery amount?

red eagle
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nerfing ward regen will heavily affect gilga more than other classes bc rs can wol3 on their free avid turn and beo has higher ward regen pet act rate

stark dragon
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No idea what X is in this equation, I don't even know what they currently consume

polar lodge
undone magnet
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Again its not the ward regen. Its the flat miss chance that makes everyone and their mom gravitate to this skill for hard content

crisp nexus
polar lodge
undone magnet
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Let me ask you all this. If CS were regular miss chance, not flat 5%, would you all still use it?

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In the same capacity as is now

crisp nexus
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Makes it danger to nerf gilga skills too much, cuz it doesn't have other option. CS gets overnerfed and becomes weak? Now gilga has no AOE whatsoever. Beo deity and hera just plays mage dance and AV2 instead.

stark dragon
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Dorado would 😅
(Which is why I'm not personally going to argue for outright removing the static miss chance. It just ends up hurting every other class while leaving Dorado largely unchanged)

red eagle
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RS and deity will prob still use them though given they have high dex

crisp nexus
abstract dirge
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t.absorb debuff sidesteps the regen problem and directly puts the player in a situation where they might take hp damage next turn

undone magnet
crisp nexus
undone magnet
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In addition to a few other tweaks

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Create tradeoffs

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As they do not currently exist

polar lodge
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I gotta say I think 20% miss rate is a little high

abstract dirge
undone magnet
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For non gilga classes? Why

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Its flat. And can be modified with riftrogue / amity

stark dragon
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It's probably unusable at that point honestly

undone magnet
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Its usable stop all of thst

abstract dirge
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well anyway i made my point

undone magnet
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It just requires effort and tradeoffs

stark dragon
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From a realm who dealt with the 15% miss chance on realmstrikes for years, a skill with 20% ain't worth the hassle

crisp nexus
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I don't think 20% miss rate is unusable

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If it's your only option to horde Anguish 50

undone magnet
sterile lion
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I’d straight up change to AV2 if the miss chance was 20%

stark dragon
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^

sterile lion
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And I play dorado

undone magnet
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Stop that

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You guys are being extreme seriously lol

stark dragon
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I don't miss immortal lords at a 20% clip currently

polar lodge
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I'd have to try and see how it felt, I am not sure I'd say it's unusable. But my gut instinct is that it's high at 20

undone magnet
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So you cant do anguish 50 as easily as before. Boo hoo

crisp nexus
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What is the actual miss chance of AV2 when fighting Ang 50 realms, it's gotta be more then 15%

red eagle
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20% is a lot given that at 50 ang enemy can kill you if you dont kill them

stark dragon
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See, the attitude is unnecessary

undone magnet
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I can do 50 anguish on a 20 al realm solely due to the miss chance

sterile lion
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If I have to go into rift rogue gear then I either lose attack (from getting a ton of defense) or I lose a ton of ward from having to use a broken piece

red eagle
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especially on zerk enermy

undone magnet
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The only thing that makes ang50 possible with CS is 5% flat miss chance

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Straight up

sterile lion
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Those aren’t trade offs. They’re straight up nerfs

undone magnet
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Pick a number other than 20 that makes more sense, fine

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They are nerfs that create tradeoffs

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Damage vs accuracy

crisp nexus
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How about 15% for non gilga, 7% for gilga, but it can't go lower

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No reducing it past that

stark dragon
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Do I need to go clear an anguish 50 with AV2 and record it to prove this point?

15% would be as high as it should reasonably go, and that already locks into a pretty extreme gear/amity requirement for tradeoffs

undone magnet
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Its a step in the right direction

polar lodge
crisp nexus
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What's stupid is that with RR pants you can have 1% miss chance

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And that's just ridiculous

undone magnet
sterile lion
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He’s already done it before 😂

undone magnet
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Im sure you can but no way is it currently as easy as CS

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/ as consistent

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Also you're 100 als everything is possible

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This hardly affects you

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Both of you

crisp nexus
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Saw a heretic the other day zeroing out Ang 50 berserk realms

undone magnet
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Sorry if anything im saying sounds toxic im just shocked at the takes here. Not meant to be

crisp nexus
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Oh btw

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Is there a site where I can see the updated raid drops

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Bc arisen Kevin apparently drops pumpkinless gear and ornaguide shows him dropping some different stuff

undone magnet
red eagle
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playorna is the most accurate since it's maintained by NF

undone magnet
crisp nexus
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I tried searching up PURRLY and it didn't appear

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Is PURRLY a new raid

polar lodge
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no

red eagle
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its not on search, you have to type the name manually

stark dragon
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I don't need hybrid amity or crit to walk through an Ang50 with AV2 as Dorado. It misses 3x, which is probably 3 more misses than I get as chained shield

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The difference is if the miss comes against a zerk immortal lord or realm, I'm probably dead

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A 10% miss chance is already worse than that ^, 15% would be really rough, and 20% is DoA

crisp nexus
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What sort of goofy build is that

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Av2 with a hammer and no crit rate

undone magnet
stark dragon
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The kind I put together in 30 seconds lol

undone magnet
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85?

stark dragon
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89

undone magnet
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You cant do that on realmD 20 AL

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But you can with CS

crisp nexus
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Realmshifter using AV2 with a hammer of all things

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That's like heretic using CS

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With a staff

undone magnet
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Just more selenes

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You get my point though

red eagle
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realm literally has no mag. Even with 89 AL this is impressive

stark dragon
crisp nexus
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Yeah that's insane

stark dragon
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maybe 15%

crisp nexus
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The realm av2 clear is wild

undone magnet
crisp nexus
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Imagine how good a deity would do it

undone magnet
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Let NF decide the number

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But bottom line is a change in that miss chance is required

crisp nexus
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Heck maybe even a al 20 or 30 deity could use AV2 if that dorado can

red eagle
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no avid though XD

soft turtle
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what does it change exactly? nerf cs too much and people will just swap to av2

sterile lion
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You don’t really need avidity for that

soft turtle
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given the two videos

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how big of a gap is it between cs and av2?

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cs is better

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but it's not holy crap miles better

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10-20%?

stark dragon
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It is at al0 😛

sterile lion
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Im already using amadan’s in hordes, nerf CS and I’ll just be a full time mage Dorito

crisp nexus
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I'm amazed by that dorado run

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That's wild to me

soft turtle
stark dragon
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(All I'm going to do in this thread is get Dorado nerfed at this rate)

soft turtle
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then are we back here saying nerf av2?

undone magnet
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You guys are discussing dorado problems

crisp nexus
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Nerf av2 😂

undone magnet
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The CS problem still exists

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Independently of dorado

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Separate the two

soft turtle
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but how overpowered is cs vs. av2 really

sterile lion
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Not really. What signet is saying is that there’ll always be an ideal skill

undone magnet
red eagle
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are we gonna nerf av2 as well?

sterile lion
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And people will always flock to that

stark dragon
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If we were going to nerf the miss rate. I'd say either:

15% and can be reduced by gear/amities
Or
10% and it can't be adjusted

soft turtle
crisp nexus
undone magnet
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Nothing matters

stark dragon
red eagle
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whats your mag in that vid btw

undone magnet
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Also, like i said, separate the realmD problem from CS

sterile lion
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Im not really sold on the 15% number but that’s up to NF to test if they decide to go that route.

stark dragon
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Which I can record, but it will be a short video lol

undone magnet
crisp nexus
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I wanna see like a mid AL deity using AV2

sterile lion
abstract dirge
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still talking about regen or miss rates? secretly clutching your arisen riftfall gear of the win?

undone magnet
abstract dirge
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"hahahaha i will still be powerful"

crisp nexus
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I think the main problem is that the 5% is reducible to 1%

undone magnet
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If perspective helps, i pretty much play all playstyles except GS

crisp nexus
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GS is so broken but nobody talks about it😂

abstract dirge
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let's not start.

there's no tactical consequences for using ss

undone magnet
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The reasons I gravitate to CS are because of the 5% flat miss, ability to sit behind 200k+ ward with no downside, and rather large damage for a 2hitter skill to accomplish what i need to out of it

abstract dirge
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so add some

soft turtle
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yeah, and net effect wise if the adjustment is smaller than 30%, no one will do anything differently

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and i don't think 30% adjustments are on the table

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so everyone will still spam cs

undone magnet
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Creates tradeoffs

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Its the best but not by miles

soft turtle
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so success is what? some people use cs, some people use av2?

undone magnet
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Id say so

soft turtle
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instead of everyone use cs

undone magnet
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Rather than 100% using CS, and having slightly lower success at 50 anguish for lower ALs due to less consistency

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50 anguish at low AL made possible by CS

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Agree?

red eagle
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what if cs consume ward turn on top of ward?

soft turtle
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just make ang50 2x harder, job done?

crisp nexus
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The heck

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Consume ward turn

undone magnet
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Job done

red eagle
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idk just throwing some ideas around

crisp nexus
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I don't want fallen sky leggings meta

soft turtle
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right but that's why i'm asking... what's the goal here

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is it diversity of skills used for ang50

undone magnet
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No

soft turtle
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or ang50 more challenging

undone magnet
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Ease of content with CS

crisp nexus
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It's interesting but idk in practice

soft turtle
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right so it's ok if everyone used cs for ang50, BUT most people died /failed more

abstract dirge
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id like to take less ss3 to the face from deity with divine blessing pet

undone magnet
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Until higher AL or better gear

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Sure

polar lodge
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I think it varies based on the person Signet

soft turtle
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right, so then just make ang50 harder, that's another equally viable route

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(yes changing cs is also equally viable)

crisp nexus
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I agree harder Ang 50

soft turtle
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i'm just saying changing cs is not the only path to "make ang50 harder"

crisp nexus
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Make them scale life 50×

polar lodge
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I'd like to see Hitpoint scaling added as well, similar to how endless scales hp as floors get harder

stuck lichen
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tbh I think cs is still pretty ridiculous outside of anguish. Makes no sense that its the fastest towering option for gs

crisp nexus
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GS is weird

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They don't count

sterile lion
stuck lichen
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its only possible because cs and selene hands are boh completely broken

soft turtle
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the solution to that is.... more.... multi.... hit... skills... that.... are... viable... when... end...game..content...is....mostly....aoe

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when you have 1-2 viable things that are multi hit

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no kidding one is gonna be preferred

abstract dirge
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ya!

soft turtle
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and endgame content is... surprise, more and more horde these days

red eagle
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if cs got nerf, I think gs will start using av2 in tower XD

crisp nexus
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People throw around all these crazy works like completely broken, wildly op, when it's really not. Like a 5% change in miss rate and it's comparable to anything else

undone magnet
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Check OP for the original point here

abstract dirge
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t.absorb debuff of 10%

undone magnet
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Solve this

crisp nexus
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Wildly op? More like mildly op

soft turtle
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fluky's point is different than your point tho s2

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fluky's point is lack of diversity

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yours is ang50 is too easy with cs, and if ang50 is harder, lack of diversity is still ok

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fluky's point is ang50 is fine (maybe), but can we get more diversity in how people clear it

crisp nexus
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What if CS was removed from the game

abstract dirge
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!riot

crisp nexus
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What happens then? Does gilga go Selene hands av2

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Av2 then becomes op

abstract dirge
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gilga does yes

soft turtle
crisp nexus
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Because that's what everyone uses

undone magnet
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Lack of skill diversity? Or CS is used by everyone because its wildly OP and makes hard content easy?

humble reef
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My original point is absolutely nothing, I show there nothing of my thoughts and just present things as they are xD

soft turtle
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rofl, rip

humble reef
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As I've said, I don't care if anything is done

undone magnet
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K then moving to the reason why I think CS is used by every class - because it is wildly OP

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Idc about diversity

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I want anguish 50 to give me anguish

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Until im 100 ALs

soft turtle
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right so if the FAILURE rate of ang50 was higher, you'd be happy

red eagle
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go in naked and you'll feel the anguish mimic

soft turtle
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even if the BEST skill to use, is cs

undone magnet
soft turtle
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let me rephrase, if the BEST PLAYERS only could do ang30

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and all of them used cs

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you're ok with that

undone magnet
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Yeah

soft turtle
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right so increase ang difficulty

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🙂

undone magnet
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CS currently makes hard content possible

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Turns game to easy mode

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I like easy mode for some content but not all

soft turtle
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cool

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that's an ang50 problem, not a cs problem imo

undone magnet
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Or both

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Imo

humble reef
soft turtle
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no but you just said diversity doesn't matter

stark dragon
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I'm not sure we can make anguish scale to a point where endgame players can't rip through it without it being just dumb.

I hit zerks for like 210k damage currently in ang 50. We going to triple the scaling to make it hard?

undone magnet
meager solar
soft turtle
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thanks odie

undone magnet
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What does nerfing CS have to do with diversity

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Yeah saw that odie post and referenced it above

stark dragon
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I'd rather see changes to anguish that aren't just "big numbers get bigger" while also adjusting outliers like CS, and introducing other options

soft turtle
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coz if the only problem is diversity, then nerfing cs would be the correct path

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if the problem is content is too easy

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the answer is change content

undone magnet
humble reef
soft turtle
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like a 10x increase in ang50 stats for example

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would instantly solve this debate

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even if everyone still used cs as the "meta skill" for ang

soft turtle
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and depending on how much

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they COULD be trade offs

undone magnet
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-Diversity problem solved with other 2hit/aoe abilities
-CS being mega outlier solved by some 'tweaks' to mechanics
-anguish easy problem solved by some slightly higher scaling

Done

#

@soft turtle howd i do

soft turtle
#

1 and 3 i buy in a heart beat, 2 is secondary and would only do if 1/3 isn't enough

#

keep in mind 1 may introduce even more op shit than cs 😛

humble reef
crisp nexus
#

How cool would it be with Ang HP scaling

soft turtle
#

MULTI HIT CRIT WITH SPLASH DMG LET'S GOOOOOOO

undone magnet
crisp nexus
#

Go into the Ang 50 and there's enemies with like 50 mil

undone magnet
#

4.8mil hp non zerk realm

soft turtle
#

ok let's get super real here for a hot second and use data

humble reef
crisp nexus
soft turtle
#

the widely established attack min bar for ang 50 is 8k

#

turns out that's doable for people starting at AL50-60 or so

crisp nexus
#

Such little?

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Even outside of gilga

soft turtle
#

well, 8k with 250k ward

#

lol

versed basin
#

Hey guys

soft turtle
#

that crosses the one shot threshold

undone magnet
crisp nexus
#

Can beo do it with 8k or just gilga

versed basin
#

@stark dragon I’ve done the bwubble challenge

crisp nexus
#

Which is

soft turtle
crisp nexus
versed basin
#

I need to upload to YouTube unless I edit the video lol

soft turtle
#

so hp adjustment is pretty straight forward

crisp nexus
#

It's too much power for discord to handle 😂

soft turtle
#

just move whatever ang level we want

humble reef
soft turtle
#

above the one shot threshold

#

the moment players can't one shot

#

is the day that ang level isn't cleared consistently

#

it's as simple as that

crisp nexus
#

Then it becomes about def and res finally

#

Chimera stacatto meta

#

What I've always wanted

soft turtle
#

aaru warrior chest meta

stark dragon
#

Another alternative while we are all here

How do people feel about only letting parting remarks proc from single hit skills?

#

Immediate nerf to the effectiveness of CS

soft turtle
#

dude, leave

crisp nexus
#

Oh yeah that's interesting

soft turtle
#

❤️

#

your dungeon resets are up

crisp nexus
#

Then no fast n pretty clears

soft turtle
#

don't you have some ang50 to clear

stark dragon
#

It creates the tradeoff between killing 2 enemies, and the rest hitting back, or selectively eliminating individuals

stark dragon
soft turtle
#

i hear av2 works just as good

versed basin
#

Here’s the 460mb version

undone magnet
versed basin
crisp nexus
#

197 pumpkin legs is all I have to say

versed basin
#

The real answer is pumpkinless + bof

undone magnet
#

Is it though?

versed basin
#

Ang50 basically unlocked after those two updates

undone magnet
#

Nothing to do with 5% flat miss chance?

versed basin
#

I missed plenty in that video

#

Also

undone magnet
#

Or wild scaling of ss abilities

versed basin
#

That was attempt number 10

#

No AL

#

usually the argument about SS skills is cause quadratic plus AL

#

but you can only achieve ultra high attack with high ward

#

When you have BOF and pumpkinless

undone magnet
#

Right - makes sense

versed basin
#

Anyways I’m not debating for or against SS

undone magnet
#

Made possible by BoF then

versed basin
#

I just wanted to try and do this

undone magnet
#

Technically you dont need pumpkinless though. A deity could do it with mage fomorian

versed basin
#

Potentially but pumpkinless is just perfect gear. Even more so for dorado cause dex

#

It’s like it’s tailor made gear for spike shield dorado play with swash

#

Really weird stats

undone magnet
#

Sure but flat miss chance in combo with parting remark (and high attk from BoF) is the real culprit, right?

crisp nexus
#

BoF not needed for that honestly

#

Dof is fine

#

Your damage was way sufficient

crisp nexus
versed basin
#

Are you saying I didn’t need BOF for that run?

versed basin
#

Pre this shit running anguish sucked cause you had to stack defensively and run exploit

undone magnet
#

But agreed

versed basin
#

The scale of CS is always present. You can argue for nerfing it now that we have gear and a spec that isn’t going to leave the game

undone magnet
#

Do any of these help?

versed basin
#

That run didn’t use selene hands but it prob deserves some balance anyways lol

crisp nexus
versed basin
#

Did you notice I one shot a zerk heretic with chain shield?

#

Dof would halve my attack

#

If you reduce flat miss chance then by how much

undone magnet
#

The number is too controversial so i wont say

versed basin
#

I can always run a miss chance amity and maybe I find one with bb1 as well lol

undone magnet
#

But it forces you to do that

#

At expense of ward regen

#

Introduces a tradeoff, right?

versed basin
#

The lowest least controversial option is a new aoe skill with decent pen

undone magnet
#

How about multiple in conjunction?

#

Dont think any one of those should stand alone

versed basin
#

It’s a trade off but doesn’t really impact performance imo

undone magnet
#

It still matters tho, ya? In conjunction with higher ward consumed

#

Add up all the little tweaks for a much lower outlier

versed basin
#

Most of these sound like nerf Gilga

#

Not nerf CS

#

which is gilgas only option really

#

Which is why I like the idea of new skills that open up more game play options

#

Also cats out the bag cause NF likes this game as a power creep simulator 😆

abstract dirge
#

t.absorb debuff
current hp+current ward scaling

versed basin
#

Course I’m not sure what I would do as a realm

#

I do have more access to miss chance reduction gear

undone magnet
#

Idk. Good discussion all. Feel like maybe we got somewhere

versed basin
#

I think my final opinion is I’d like to just see more skills introduced so we can have build variety and options outside of CS gameplay

#

Sounds more fun to me than smashing CS into the ground and re working it.

undone magnet
#

Never opposed to new stuff

soft turtle
undone magnet
#

Ill sign

#

It was in my original list of ideas too

#

Just think ward based skills are still wildly OP across all classes

dense bone
# crisp nexus Av2 then becomes op

(I know I'm wildly late to the party but I clicked on the message the 'sign here' was replying to and saw this)
Yes AV2 is very comparable /s

image.png
soft turtle
#

Thank you for the math lesson in quadratic scaling

versed basin
steady breach
steady breach
# versed basin

jeez you have the goodest of boys here, so many WoO casts :0

versed basin
#

But I don’t tend to find that it’s needed he’s a good boy

clear spoke
#

Perfect, seems like there's only really going to be only 3 classes in game anyway. Beowulf/Deity for everything and RS for PVP. Sorted.
HoC and that's it. Nice, it was a fun ride guys. Glad to see everything gets worse and worse.

stable pulsar
#

(cc @soft turtle since I know you love graphs)

polar lodge
soft turtle
#

also can both lines please be the same color, with the legend as well

#

then we're in the correct altitude for a chart

unique edge
versed basin
#

looks like a Mondrian

#

@summer basin made a good point that the original graph was flawed given the context of this thread

#

ive revised it to more accurately reflect the state of Orna in 2024

summer basin
#

I legally have no association with this

soft turtle
#

this is some data i can get behind tbh

#

OH WAIT @versed basin both needs to be the same color

#

currently you can still tell what's what

polar lodge
#

I would figure the yellow bar would be slanted up at a perpendicular angle

soft turtle
#

@stable pulsar i hear you like charts, this one's for you boo

#

it's a... um... bifurcated candlestick chart showing 2 different realities occupying the same time space continuum

stable pulsar
#

As an aside, "class" is really a bit strange when we're talking about CS.

My GS uses CS. So do beos, deities, realms, gilgas of course. Even heretics.
Not really a "class" thing, is it?

soft turtle
#

yeah but making it a class thing triggers dorttan

#

but u rite, it's a cs thing... or actually as i squeezed it out of some folks, it's not even a cs thing, it's a ang50 is too easy thing

clear spoke
# polar lodge Do you know something I don't know or are you just gloomposting?

Gloom and doomposting obviously. Anyway things have been extremely pretty clear on the direction of orna for the past 6 months so... I'll leave it at this. Let's see what Odie wants to do with his game because at the end of the day people are spending countless hours and days trying to give millions of good ideas to make some things better but he is the only one that decides what will happen. So we will just wait and see. I guess HoC is always an alternative... and as said previously lots of people are either in break with this game waiting for the ascension revamp or waiting to understand where everything is going.

stable pulsar
inland fern
#

Hello everyone. Recently the discussion also took place on our Kingdom Discord. Then I saw the ORN feedback, but nothing makes me read almost 2000 comments now. I'll also post my point of view and my "solution", if the suggestion has already been made, I'm sorry.

In my opinion the biggest problem:
Scaling: The shield skills are the only ones that make M1 and M2 stronger through AL
How well these abilities work for other classes (cough BeoH) even though they should be very Gilga specific

Solution:
All shield skills get a fixed M2 value (or range) like all other skills/spells. This would eliminate the double scaling caused by AL.
M1 is then not boosted by atk but by Ward! You would then have to think about a conversion that fits the dmg numbers, for example: 100k ward corresponds to 2k atk. This means that classes that have an extremely high atk value (cough BeoH) would no longer be favored as much. Side effect: Selene Hands would be out of the Shield meta and other Titan Augments that have barely/not been used so far could be used.
But now Gilgamesh might not have enough damage output and that shouldn't happen under any circumstances! Now we're adding a passive shield DMG boost to Bastille, 0% DMG boost at 50% Ward, up to 100% DMG boost at 100% Ward. So the starting potential is again similar for everyone, but Gilga can clearly make the most of it.

What would be really cool: We get 1-3 other semi-AOE skills/spells to bring more variety into the game. 😄

polar lodge
inland fern
#

ok 🤔
i am not around long enough to know that, it seems

stable pulsar
#

A few counterpoints:

  • Scaling: BP also scales quadratically with ascension, for GS/A. In general though, any/all instances of quad scaling should go away.
  • Class-locking: That's not the design for any skill, and shouldn't be. It used to be that non-gilgas had a 0.1x damage penalty with SS skills and was changed to the current setup of 0.5x for non-gilga. The goal is that gilga uses them best but others can still use them in some capacity.
  • Ward-only scaling: That's what spiked shield used to be. It was insanely oppressive to have M1 scale only with ward, such that in pvp there was ~no effective defense against an incoming M1=50+. It's also a good thing to require +atk gearing, both for pve and pvp.
red eagle
#

the problem with ward only scaling is that there's no need to invest in atk and still do big dmg

#

quad scaling is not that big of a problem imho. It only benefits ppl with high AL which account for a small number of players

#

at which point, any skill will kill

stable pulsar
inland fern
#

  1. i forgot about bloodpact. and you are 100% right, quad scaling is bad

  2. counterpoint to your counterpoint: call of ..., bloodpact and Hara sigils are all "class locked" and it seems like odie likes to go this route with the addition of Apex locked for Deity

  3. isn't this only a matter of a little number flip is an skill gets an M1 of 50 or 10? and how do we get rid of the quad scaling if we take att an ward to scale the dmg?

undone magnet
#

Plz no ward m1 i beg

#

6.0m1 rend epee already hard enough to tank

crisp nexus
#

Ward scaling 50+ m1

#

Yes

#

I like it

#

Make it happen

red eagle
#

I think the problem is the combo of cs + bof swash that is the problem (along with release of pumpkinless). What if m1 somehow scales off def instead of atk?

#

This will prevent swash + cs combo

#

maybe something like (def+atk)/2

crisp nexus
#

So now gilga can have max def and res and ward and still hit super hard?

#

😂

red eagle
#

at least no swash XD

#

still I think scaling can be adjusted. Instead of atk x 2.4 for cs maybe use def x 1.5?

#

or mix atk and def at some ratio

crisp nexus
#

I'm fine with that. I'll get cataphract going, arisen fey plagued gear. No problem. 10k+ def and res along with the silly damage 😂

stable pulsar
#

@inland fern
The community isn't consistent about wanting or not wanting things to be class locked. Originally the game had no concept of such things, then with T10 classes (early 2020?) things were added that were locked (notably SS). Mages were going to be 'aoe aligned', but NF eventually realized that that's not something good to lock. Over time, the trend is for things to get wider, if niche, access -- and the community is in some sense returning to its early roots when that was the norm.

SS should be used by everyone, just as spells can be used by everyone (e.g. gilgamage). As you say, some things are still locked. My expectation is that everyone would have some (small) ability to use summons in the future, as an example.

isn't this only a matter of a little number flip is an skill gets an M1 of 50 or 10? and how do we get rid of the quad scaling if we take att an ward to scale the dmg?
A "little number flip" is something people have been asking for forever for a number of skills.
Do you want me to concoct a way to fix scaling on the fly...? 😅 Alright, fine.

An option: Keep the same formula, use a logarithm of ward. Now it scales like nlogn which is much much much less egregious (at the high end) than n**2.

red eagle
#

log on ward will hurt gilga more than other classes. Pretty sure at that point, beoh will outdmg. Can we do log on atk instead but with adjusted coefficient?

#

honestly this is a really difficult problem to fix

#

log atk will not penetrate ang 50. It'll likely kill the whole strategy

inland fern
stable pulsar
#

"hurt gilga more than other classes"
How did you come to this conclusion? Note: BeoH has more ward than gilga and starts at full ward...
And my suggestion to take the log of ward isn't the only or best way to make a change. I threw it out there so there'd be some concrete idea of what a scaling fix kind of change could look like, to answer the question of "how is it even possible".

--

Step one is to get NF to care about the issue/recognize it as an issue worth fixing. There are a lot of ways to fix it but it starts from a desire to change anything.

The core complaint is: (mostly at high ascensions) there is extreme centralization on CS for towers and anguish gameplay. Every class including GS and Heretic (the strictly "non-melee" classes) are using it, for reasons already described -- quad scaling, building defensively, fixed hit rate.

red eagle
#

I guess its my misunderstanding. It depends on the new log (ward) formula whether 1/2 factor is inside the log

#

if it's inside then that's just -log(2) on m2 which will be great for other classes but gilga

stuck lichen
#

hmm I wonder if something like this would work, that you take the square root of the ascension multiplier when factoring in attack and ward and multiply the M2 by a scalar to make it better for lower ascension levels. That way it should still depend on both ward and attack

image.png
humble reef
#

I'll work on a summary (with message links) of the 1.6k messages and ask (after I post it) for this thread to be closed, since I think enough things have been said in this topic

polar lodge
humble reef
#

End of Discussion summary

I'll try to be as objective as possible

Main post:

Why Ascension 2.0/Selene Nerf might not fix CS:

Heretics use CS/SS too (even without warrior gear):

#1219728600467771543 message

Sweep is never the answer to CS changes:

Selene Hands Talk:

Endgame content:

#

Miss chance shenanigans:

Contributors to Miss chance overtuning:

#1219728600467771543 message

Powercreep vs Overpowered:

CS being made Gilga only:

ORN Feedback shenanigans (I'm not to to offend anyone, this is taking a long time to make, there is a lot to talk about):

#

Quadratic scaling:

I have to say that a lot of gilgas were scared of a SS skill-line nerf because they had already gone through a brutal one. I don’t have a particular section aligned to it because I’d have to revise the 1.6k messages again and most of them get either a different perspective on the problem (something I really admire of them), or simply get in, say nothing relevant to the conversation/duplicate something that has already been talked and solved, and go out. (again, not trying to offend anyone)

If anyone wants to contact me about this message, feel free to ping me anywhere or dm me

For the last time. I don’t care if any change is done at all, even though I think it should be done