Reworked Gods Classline

[stoic harness]

oh i think my problem on beta w/ raids is that Divine Bastion means no apex charge ever

from taking dmg

[proper briar]

I mean, it gets the job done

[stoic harness]

show me an ss at floor 20

[teal kestrel]

I think he might've been referring to the 1000/2000 Blades/Seals skills

[stoic harness]

(how sticky is that buff?)

[austere shuttle]

You know we have the power to set discord into fure sending this into other classes channel right 😈😁

[fringe nacelle]

I believe it is known news by everyone

[austere shuttle]

Cele lute + passive temp buff same as Dursa on Dara and I won't do it 🙏😋

[austere shuttle]

Was kidding. Sorry. Back to deity (re)work ! 🙂

[teal kestrel]

I haven't noticed an increased rate of t. buff application on-kill with Ursa, anyway, so I'm still not convinced that's working properly.

[pallid stump]

Yes but it seems locked to Ursa (which makes me understand why odie tried to switch att buffs to DC)

[hollow reef]

it's a roll on any potential self buffs you or your equipment may have - imagination, mammon sword, etc

[austere shuttle]

Seems nice !

[teal kestrel]

I threw some Ash-Plumed Shoes on and never got the t. mag buff. I guess I'll give it some more rolls.

[finite berry]

I still to this day dont understand the malus of UO, from a community noise standpoint. Its both a buff and malus, ends up only losing out to ultima, which is preventable with rhada souls and amity. Leave as is, its straight up a non issue

Would prefer to focus energy on these issues

Or others that are non UO related

[teal kestrel]

Well, I can't get past the first floor of any dungeon in beta, so I guess I won't be testing the Ursa on-kill passive after all 😅

[stoic harness]

once during this raid I was able to use the apex

[austere shuttle]

If it's a nice pré ultima thing it's cool for lower tier players and that's a nice improvement

[stoic harness]

also like what.. he had blue defense but

it hit for less than h.slash

[subtle anchor]

Oh. Em. Gee.

[subtle anchor]

Is there a way to balance out the roll being higher especially on Ara? Using Apex ability to get just the effect feels bad 😮

[craggy creek]

So, both of the celestial classes are supposed to have staying power? That's it then, the turning point that makes this my new fav class. I think apex is a great concept and done really well (balance wise). I would still love to see another buff from apex, I was thinking that we could get one of the temp. Dmg buffs, maybe just a ++ but if that's not strong enough then a temp. Dmg +++ would make deity a great contender for almost every type of build.

Kind of like a temporary berserk

[subtle anchor]

I'm not sure what content I'll use base for at the moment... I guess if I'm up against a target that spams debuffs?? Or should base have Steadfast instead of Steadfast II as well?

Also would it be unreasonable to have Apex go: Ursa fills quicker for slightly weaker effects, Base fills normal for normal effects, Ara fills slower for amplified effects???

Not that I'm sure how you'd amp AoE and/or tRes and Def ^^^

[craggy creek]

I am more concerned that Apex doesn't give any good buffs for raids. Because you don't want to use the damaging spells if you have something to outclasses it. And the AOE buffs are useless in raids

And you don't want to use the defense buffs because it makes Apex charge slower

[woven kayak]

That's gonna be dope for ang50

Aoe SS

[pallid stump]

Base will be better for builds that already include mag+++ from other sources. Like wolpertinger or aaru chest.

[fringe nacelle]

This is an interesting take on most current builds, for higher AL's it's virtually nothing, but for people in endless/melee horde with lugus it can be very good, even though it overlaps the class' innate passive

[subtle anchor]

As opposed to quickcasting DC or bringing Phoenix? I guess that tracks

[stoic bluff]

I.E. You generate 50 Apex Energy (AE) per attack/taken hit, with a cap of 1000.

Apex ability 1 has a power of, say, 10k, costs 300 energy. Ability 2 has a power of 25k, costs 700 energy. Ability 3 has 50k power, costs 1000 energy.

[austere shuttle]

It's not nothing for higher AL, it's a nice improvement for Tbuff builds, wich is already fun to play but lack some consistancy, so this will help everyone, higher AL too 🙏

[fringe nacelle]

Can you show me an example of T.buff build? I don't have much knowledge of them

[fringe nacelle]

So non 100% consuming skills? I think odie understood that differently tbh

[subtle anchor]

They lack less consistency than people might think if you build out for them

[craggy creek]

Anguish 50 is about to get a whole lot easier if that spell stays the same, but then again, you need a good bit of stuff to make anguish 50 not a suicide mission

[stoic harness]

i like that its one spell per full bar

but,
need a buff or two at T8-9

need to fix ward absorb

[fringe nacelle]

I was thinking more of a Dursa one xD

Since now they get increased % at proccing them

[subtle anchor]

Sure give me a sec

[stoic harness]

your tbuff being lugus and a.imag?

wow. need ohb, lugus, askr

north star mvp farming offhand again

[subtle anchor]

Lugus is fine

Askr STILL falls off rather quickly

[stoic harness]

or beguiled katar

nah. chimera staccato

[fringe nacelle]

What does Cele axe have as adorns?

[stoic harness]

or polly guitar

[subtle anchor]

I have the lungs of oceanus on that one for QC Ultimastrikes

There are better options

[fringe nacelle]

And what pet would you use that for? I see a lot of lasting duration but not many things proccing it

From this build, Dursa would change 0 (only on the new passive proc change)

[subtle anchor]

I'd probably bring Phoenix or Themis for DC

Even with a lot of uptime the buffs that stay up the longest are:
T3 Def/Res, T3 Att/Mag, DC, T2 Def/Res, T.Immunities

T1 and 2 Att/Mag, T Dex, T Crit, and T Power 1 all still fall off in only a handful of turns

Staying Power in addition or Oracle with a second amity might remedy that

[fringe nacelle]

Ohhh, you mean using a skill and have them last a long time

[subtle anchor]

Oh, yeah haha

No point in a rotating door of buffs if you only get the bad ones :p

[fringe nacelle]

I was talking about this lol

[subtle anchor]

Will be hard to test until the rolls are higher

I'd really like Ursa to be able to go ham in endless and keep at least its passive buffs up almost constantly

[fringe nacelle]

Yeah that's what I was thinking, you'd be able to mantain a lot of buffs consistenly if that's the case

[subtle anchor]

I'd bring the aaru thief gear with the tdex and crit or Dynasty boots for 2turn DC
2 Questing weapons with Orichalcum Mortars,
And then go from there

Phoenix or Themis for pet

[fringe nacelle]

What damaging skill would you use? since you would have next to no crit (I think)

[subtle anchor]

I'd still roll with the Strike 3 and or Guarding Strikes IV

[fringe nacelle]

Oh yeah GS4 is very good for that

[subtle anchor]

Heck even Swordplay

If you really want to see the t.buffs

[fringe nacelle]

t.dex and t.crit from thief gear is a really good idea

[subtle anchor]

IF it procs

[fringe nacelle]

Otherwise embla could be used if t.crit is not needed I think

nvm

only robe gives t.all

[subtle anchor]

It's only on the chest and doesn't last long enough

Yeah

[fringe nacelle]

I feel like the main focus is not "how many turns is gonna last", but "how much can I reset it (put it up after it's knocked down)"

[subtle anchor]

That's what I'd like Ursa to be

But it doesn't proc enough to be that yet

[fringe nacelle]

I'm really invested in this rework since it's the deciding factor of me joining deity gang or staying in RS

[craggy creek]

Same here, but Instead I would be coming from gilga. But Odie already said that the celestial classes are supposed to have staying power so I think I'm already sold on Dursa being my main

[stoic harness]

asc 10 lvl 250 and 4250 att..

[austere shuttle]

In high anguish they do 😋

[stoic harness]

why u so weak, beta!?!

[fringe nacelle]

Staying power sounds really cool, but in the end I'm focusing on how Apex feels

[craggy creek]

Like Odie said, apex isn't going to be that good for a damage skill, but the buffs are what they are focusing on, so I hope for a damage buff from an apex skill because the rest of them seem to be almost useless in raids right now.

[fringe nacelle]

Yeah I don't mean about damaging skills on Apex, I have Realmstrikes for that

[craggy creek]

Realmstrikes do go brrr.

But I think I'm gonna go for a ultima strikes, at least for raids

[fringe nacelle]

#1219675348434812998 message This are the main things I'm focusing on with the feedback

(It's a big message)

[craggy creek]

The only change I think I want right now, before we get to test more, is what I outlined here #1219675348434812998 message

[fringe nacelle]

That's my final goal too, but I'm still not at 245 xDD

[craggy creek]

Me too, I'm still at lvl 237

[fringe nacelle]

Yeah, buffs can be very cool

[craggy creek]

I just want SOME type of dmg buff for raids, since the rest of the apex skills we have right now are near useless in raids, except the defense one once you are about to get hit with raid ult at high damage

[craggy creek]

But thanks to you, Odie toned down the mana costs, so if i try an ultima build with Dara I can actually blue line with the apex spell

That's one nice change

[fringe nacelle]

Still, technically Ultima is still more dmg than Apex skill 😅

Apex damaging skill only looks good on Hybrid Monster build

[craggy creek]

Even then, ultima does way more

If you have both builds built all the way

[stoic harness]

is this supposed to hit multiple times? it is right?

[craggy creek]

Well, I think so. It says 2000 blades

[stoic harness]

its really difficult to charge apex in a raid. It seems like it charges to full every time you do 50% of your opponent hp in dmg

of course, waiting for next version, cause i think this has been said many times

[craggy creek]

Once the celestials have staying power, and the apex charge rate is tweaked, I think this will make deity fun. And finally make it feel like it's own class, not just a class for whoever can't decide which one they want to focus.

[fringe nacelle]

Yeah, 13 times lol

[teal kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/disappointment-gif-21343121

Deity has always been fun and felt like its own class.

For shame! For shame!

[fringe nacelle]

Not enough it seems

[craggy creek]

🤨 not really, with the ability to use whatever you wanted seemed to be for those who wanted to test out a different builds without their Al's going to waste. And the ability to equip anything isn't even exclusive to deity.

But don't take that as an insult, I think I'm joining you in the deity legion after this update, apex just seems like too cool of a concept to pass up for me.

[subtle anchor]

It's been encroached on by a lot of content sure but I don't think Deity has ever not been "fun"

[teal kestrel]

Deity has had so many great things going for it over the years that are often undervalued by a lot of players. If your decision to play Deity hinges upon Apex, you're probably gonna be disappointed.

[subtle anchor]

Compared to playing Gilgamesh and Heretic (my experience) where I had fun but the builds weren't as diverse Deity has always been the home for crazy builds and shenanigans and that is definitely fun

[subtle anchor]

I definitely agree with that last part

[stoic harness]

where's that meme w/ beo and deity getting hanged, and deity says "first time?"

[teal kestrel]

(not that I want to discourage anyone from playing it 😅)

[fringe nacelle]

Yeah, I know i'm 99% gonna get hugely disappointed, but I'll still strech that 1% everything I can

[subtle anchor]

I have the Scooby-Doo one where they ask what the Deity celestial are and the mask comes off to reveal BeoH

[subtle anchor]

99%? 🤯

[fringe nacelle]

Exageration, I'd say it's more like 70% realistically

And it hurts that it is that high tbh

[craggy creek]

My decision doesn't rely on apex, it's just the turning point. I was considering diety or gilga for a long time, and now with apex I think it tips the scales just barely in the direction of deity

[untold blade]

I feel some people are doing a lot of effort to keep away our eyes from apex and the fact it is a close to absolute useless identity passive. I dont know why.

[craggy creek]

Useless!? Have you seen what it can do if built right in horde dungeon?

[untold blade]

Of course Apex is supposed to be important in our decision to play deity or not, it is the new deity signature move

[untold blade]

Enlight me, i must have missed something

[fringe nacelle]

I have to disagree here, Apex is not useless, it's more or less situational, and with Dursa, it dounds really cool

[austere shuttle]

It's not against Odie great effort to say that, again thank you very much for working on giving deity something new, but for now I agree with you @untold blade , apex, as it is now, feels more like a gadget to do some youtube short than something usefull I will use in my usual dungeons run

[craggy creek]

It essentially makes you turn into a fey cactus. It allows for any skill or spell to target multiple enemies.

Seen here #1219675348434812998 message

[hollow reef]

Likely important to note that apex is a gear within the engine of changes. Looking at it alone (and likely just for damage sake) will definitely look underwhelming

[austere shuttle]

Again, I m completely sure it will improve.
For now, it seems good for early stage of god classline and it's already a big win.

[fringe nacelle]

I don't care if Apex is weak, just make it have a good feeling using it please

[austere shuttle]

So we will keep waiting for those new things and see 🙂 thanks again

[untold blade]

Those are sweet numbers, but it take to many turns to get there.

[craggy creek]

Will there be an apex skill that gives some sort of damage buff? Because right now not a whole lot of the apex skills seem very useful in raids, except every so often the defense one.

[subtle anchor]

But Odie has already shown an openness to address the charging issues and at least listen to some of the ideas thrown around. Again, like Flukie has stated and many others have said - its not perfect but it's a neat idea. It'll get there

[hollow reef]

When the charge rate is adjusted and just right, I can’t imagine wanting to do a horde run without manyalus, personally speaking

[subtle anchor]

I'm a fan of the overall changes even if they need some ironing out

[untold blade]

Cant wait to see it adjusted then 👍

[fringe nacelle]

Before you magically dip Odie, is the only mag apex on T8/T9 intetional? Or should a att apex be made too?

[austere shuttle]

I agree it could become something 🙂 just not easy to have a clear idea of it without those New Gear and other things. But I trust you and your team ♥️

[hollow reef]

I may add melee in the earlier tiers. They’re all mage classes technically, but understand players like their swords and such

[fringe nacelle]

Thank you ❤️

[subtle anchor]

"Will use your magic or attack Stat whichever is higher"? 😎

[stoic harness]

it only has dmg spell at T8, T9..

[hollow reef]

Yup, it’s all okay. Nobody “got” avidity, bestial bonds, or collateral damage in their betas 😅

[hollow reef]

Oh, that’s good

[fringe nacelle]

Yeah, Sands of Aaru style

[teal kestrel]

Glad that's been solved

now

we just need trading

[subtle anchor]

Wat

[hollow reef]

right. I’m on it

[teal kestrel]

[subtle anchor]

Sam gets an apex move: Trade gear

[fringe nacelle]

I'll trade you 30 als for my Ornate briny pendant

[subtle anchor]

Can only be used when Apex meter is 200% full

Trades your highest percent gear equipped to a random ally in battle

Summons and pets included

[craggy creek]

I'll give Him my godforged Briny pendant for 30 als

[hollow reef]

-suggest add trading but only when two players have equal apex bars

[stoic harness]

i wish that timestamp was 10m earlier

[austere shuttle]

We need 2 pets with 6 summons each on their back with mana shield and col dmg multi-targeting avidity on our summons to proc Tbuff on our bestial bond 5 to ultima-sweep everything instantly

And a shiny hat

[subtle anchor]

Actually you can only trade when dual wielding shields AND having 2x apex bars filled

I think we have some good responses for the next few times a new player asks for trading

Anyone got the screen captures?

[teal kestrel]

Sorry, was still thinking about that shiny hat.

[subtle anchor]

One that floats over your head while your animated sprite dances while fishing?

[teal kestrel]

Coincidentally, that's what I'm doing right now.

[subtle anchor]

No judgements here

Hey! New Apex move idea: Apex Fish toss: picķ a random fish from your inventory and hurl it at your opponent. Deals damage equal to the amount they dislike sushi!

Though a toss skill that throws junk at an opponent would be kind of funny

[hollow reef]

too OP

[subtle anchor]

just think of all the broken gear that would get hurled at opponents

[stoic harness]

T8 and T9 (earth) gods dont seem to have any defensive benefit from apex either

[finite berry]

Agreed

[fringe nacelle]

Just kill the enemy with offensive apex

[finite berry]

My decision to play deity hinges on ara and ursa being different than just magic vs attk actually

[stoic harness]

i like the t.buff-ness. maybe full apex doubles it

[subtle anchor]

Ara being magic + gear focus and Ursa being attack + quick apex + proc on kill?

[subtle anchor]

What would your ideal be with what we have out of curiosity?

[stoic harness]

also does T8 & 9 deity still need bestial bonds?

[finite berry]

Lean harder into the 'hits more enemies' or 'build up to one big hit' playstyle. Or something more unique like dorado passive. Not just 'ursa gets t attk buffs and charges apex fast' vs 'ara gets tmag buffs and charges apex slow'

It sucks that the celestial difference is just based on apex tbh

[winged belfry]

I have an idea when it comes to community feedback on this, especially with the UO thing.

What if there was a "townhouse" sort of stream that maybe Purrly can set up where some ORN members work with Odie to show off the painpoints/benefits of the changes? Odie often cites his data for changes that are made, however I think it would boost a ton of confidence if people could see the communication/gameplay examples directly instead of datapoints.

[finite berry]

Because then i do care about what apex is and does. If difference were independent of apex, i would care less about the apex abilities etc

[fringe nacelle]

And apex looking it alone will look underwhelming, so we kinda have a rough estimate of that

[hollow reef]

Isn’t that what these threads are? while data is important and a great tool, I wouldn’t rely on it alone for anything outside of the pure balance realm

[fringe nacelle]

So... we're here to also talk to how's things like Apex feels like? Because some things have been said about that, like here: #1219675348434812998 message

[craggy creek]

Still curious about what you think of my suggestion, that there could be another apex skill that gives a temp. Dmg + or ++, since the rest of the apex skills seem to not be too useful in raids. Like a temporary berserk almost.

[hollow reef]

Yes, feeling is important

[hollow reef]

There are so many options 🙂

[pure patrol]

Ok, so these are my thoughts about some of the changes and apex:

• Apex is currently not a good thing to be used in short encounters due usually I end the battle before I could use an apex skill/spell
• It charges too slowly every turn if I don't get a hit or I don'r get any damage. Concept of getting damage to fill this passive doesn't match too much with deity stats and also limits playstyles (e.g. with a high-dex build you're less likely to be hitted and this restricts more to play with apex skills and the passive). I suggest this apex passive could charge with the amount of mana you consume per turn, or by the damage dealt to opponent(s) (there could be more ways to fix this but I currently don't know more ideas for this)
• I really would like to see more apex spells like the "AoE maker" of the DAra. Like one that makes temporarily your critical hits stronger, temporal effect that could make any skill/spell give the opponent one of the elemental status effects, etc (these are examples that could be broken but it's just an idea)
• What if we could have some less powerful apex skills/spells that consume a portion of the apex and not all?
• Liked a lot the higher proc chance of celestials temp buffs, but I also would like to see Staying Power passive in celestials, they would complement each other pretty fine.

[torpid burrow]

I do, and it's so broken I am afraid of speaking about it.

[fringe nacelle]

Staying power will be put into celestials, they just forgot to put it there

[pure patrol]

Oh that's nice

[torpid burrow]

How do you do so much damage? I must be doing something completely wrong. I hit for a tenth of this.

[subtle anchor]

Manyalus + Buffs + Guarding Strikes IV

[torpid burrow]

I may end up staying base, then. I'm using Aaru.

[torpid burrow]

Agreed. My build is pure shenanigans.

[torpid burrow]

DAra needs some love on this, but DUrsa seems to be on a sweet spot.

[uneven nexus]

With Staying Power, D.Ara will be good. D.Ursa is gonna be broken af

[torpid burrow]

I still think it's unfair. Ursa has a chance to trigger the passive on every kill. This is far more than Ara once in a lifetime Apex cast.
Ara deserves Staying Power II.

[uneven nexus]

It's unfair between D.Ara and D.Ursa, both are very strong after the update, so your solution is buff the other one so both are going to be broken?

[subtle anchor]

My goodness. Neither of them will be doing 49m spiked Shield hits so let's make sure we define broken instead of complaining unrealistically about unreleased content

[uneven nexus]

I still don't understand how people still want deity to get more buff
This update already make deity super OP

• Staying Power, + increase chance of t.buff proc (t.atk1,2,3. t.mag1,2,3)

Meanwhile, Gilga got 15% to increase 40% dmg

LOL

[subtle anchor]

If you're not here to contribute then don't join the thread 🙂

[uneven nexus]

I am contribute, it mean make thing balance, not whiny to get more buff

[subtle anchor]

So anyone asking for features to be fixed is whining for buffs? Got it. We have a new Abyss

[torpid burrow]

I never said it's broken. Just that having the same proc chance for something on a kill vs on a cast that charges after 20 turns is not fair.

[subtle anchor]

Not directed at you

[uneven nexus]

I'm saying that is whiny? I'm just talking to the other guy and you jump in and talk nonsense

[torpid burrow]

Sure. What do you think of my idea, then?

[subtle anchor]

I'm with ya. I think Ara is missing a little something. I'm mostly waiting to see what they update before commenting too much more though

[torpid burrow]

Yeah. I wanna see how it feels with Staying Power.

[subtle anchor]

Ara's procs on cast feel not great at the moment especially in contrast with proc on kill and extra turn on cast

[torpid burrow]

Right now, I can say I am not unhappy.

But I feel like Ursa got a lot more whoomp.

[subtle anchor]

Yeah I like the current direction overall. Just needs some ironing

[torpid burrow]

Still, the shenanigans I was thinking as Ara. Nobody bothered to ask.

Lacuna II + Fomor King set + Manyalus.

100% Stasis chance, AoE, non-splitting damage.

[subtle anchor]

I mean if you can set it up why not?

[torpid burrow]

Because the Summoners will cry.

[craggy creek]

There is a 0% chance you manage to set that whole thing up against a summoner

If it takes them that long to kill you, you could have killed them before your setup started working

[torpid burrow]

I will, if they make Apex a free turn.

[craggy creek]

If you use apex as D. Ursa it is a free turn...

[torpid burrow]

Yeah. It should be free to everyone.

[craggy creek]

Thats just part of the tradeoff, ursa gets it faster and free turn but weaker ( only weaker for the damage focused ones) while the other 2 it builds slower

[finite berry]

Have you tested?

Your name says a lot lol

Dont see deity

Please test and provide feedback

[craggy creek]

I mean, I was gilga before this and I provided the only test videos for like 12 hours in the beginning... But yeah, I don't think without some feedback w/tests is enough to say it's op

[finite berry]

100% appreciate the time spent

[uneven nexus]

I don't play deity a lot, i did play it for a while and have lv15 asc if that's what u talk about
I'm pretty sure u didn't test it with Staying Power because it's not fix yet so you also don't know how OP it'd be

[finite berry]

I take that as a no, have not tested👍

Please test and provide feedback

[uneven nexus]

And you really think because D.Ursa is stronger than Dara, ara should get a buff?

[uneven nexus]

And you didn't too

[finite berry]

I dont think that. Quote me

Yes, i did

[uneven nexus]

Not with Staying power

[finite berry]

I asked if you did, and you assumed i didnt. Nice troll

Sure

Please test and provide feedback

[craggy creek]

I understand where your coming from, but can you listen to him? He is saying we have no idea if ara need staying power because it's supposed to be on them but Odie didn't have them on, so soon we will test them and see if they are too strong or balanced with staying power.

[valid surge]

Okay guys, let's do a reset. What are each of you trying to say to one another?

So basically, D.Ursa is ridiculously strong now, not just usable. DAra is not, super op, but is still a very strong option, but not as reliable as DUrsa. Correct?

[finite berry]

^

[valid surge]

That's what I've gathered from this, but I think I missed some stuff. Can y'all fill me in on your individual thoughts so we can talk ab it together?

Not against one another

[finite berry]

I asked him to please test and provide feedback

Nothing against one another

Onward

[valid surge]

I understand now. The phrasing was starting to look a bit menacing, so I wanted to make sure we were all good

But basically, I think it'd be good to do some testing with different setups to the classlines.

See how broken we can make them is what the goal is, so we can figure out how to balance them properly

[subtle anchor]

Like the 49,999,999 spiked shield hit a heretic corvus pulled off? 😄

I don't think we're getting to that level no matter what we do

[valid surge]

was the Corvus any AL?

[subtle anchor]

It was using the Weaved Elements passive that Mage is getting

I'm honestly a fan of someone breaking that passive

[valid surge]

Ooooo

[subtle anchor]

But I don't see anything in Deity that even borders that

I've already pointed out the pvp abuse potential that damage taken charging apex does

And a lot of others have pointed out potential issues with things being slow or not great yet

[valid surge]

I think that the Weaved Elements passive is gonna be reworked or changed, specificallyt so it cant be broken, maybe give a cap to it? But Odie'll definitely get at that I think

I'm with you on this, I've tried a good few things with the Deity celestials in the beta, and they seem just good

Slow, but good

Very reliable now

They're consistantly good now instead of consistantly meh as they had been before

[subtle anchor]

Reliable on RNG temp buffs isn't quite the word I'd use but it's closer

[valid surge]

Absolutely

[golden sequoia]

Got a vid of this by chance? O3o

[subtle anchor]

Once the proc rates are tweaked and apex charging/abilities are tweaked I think the class will be really cool

[valid surge]

I think that we should also go based off of the assumption that anything like that SS hit with Corvus will be fixed

[subtle anchor]

I don't, just a screenshot of the damage

[golden sequoia]

Aw

[valid surge]

Do you have any thoughts on the new limit break? I know you mentioned others saying it feels slow earlier

[golden sequoia]

Wait, Weaved Elements is focused on the elements... how did they get 45 mil on a spiked shield attack?

[subtle anchor]

I don't know the gear used just that it was using SS at the end of the weave chain because it counts physical so it made a huge damage increase

[golden sequoia]

Ooohhh

[valid surge]

ohhhh

[golden sequoia]

I'd asked towards Odie in the mageline thread to help explain the intended utility of this spell and if there's some hidden level of effectiveness behind it, cause as it stood it didn't seem that effective or easy to use, and not worth the effort if you kept hitting resistances and immunities along the weaving chain, all for a simple double cast at the end. Buuuuuuut... now I might be starting to see a piece of the puzzle. I wonder how much that buff to damage was

[subtle anchor]

I was not a huge fan of it on paper but trying it out- in PvE content outside of horde it feels too slow and on PvP content I'm actually concerned it will be pretty busted due to the charge rates- especially in Blade of Finesse Guilds

I'd love to see the option to cast the abilities or different abilities without completely emptying the bar to make it more like the limit break. Even just a 50% and 100% would be a good starting point IMO

All said, it's quite a bit cooler than I gave it credit for and I'm interested to see where it ends up

[valid surge]

I like your PoV of it. I think that it WILL be busted in pvp, but odie'll probably put a cap on it for pvp specifically, as he lowered the damage of other spells and limited damage dealt within the first 2 turns, so I'm not too worried

And making it function like the actual limit break would be wonderful, being able to use more specific percentages of the bar

I kinda hope we'll see some adjustments to tower augments to give us some stuff to help charge it faster for pve exclusively

[subtle anchor]

I'm not even worried about the damage spells just that no one will want to hit a Deity activating Second Chance, half of Demogod, AND filling their Apex bar at once.

Or in BoF since they can't do more than half damage, basically not being able to attack the Deity for 2 turns without risking an absolute nuke in return

[valid surge]

ahhhh I understand now

That really is a bit scary

[subtle anchor]

It's like the mystic feather dilemma but worse

A gun for pvp for sure lol

A really big one at that

[valid surge]

Sorry, Im also a bit uninformed on that. What's the dilemma for mystic feather?

[valid surge]

holding up everyone at gunpoint in pvp

[subtle anchor]

If I'm not sure I can kill em in one hit, I don't want to hit em

Since they then get all dodgy

In BoF Guild if your opponent is a mystic feather class you sometimes give them two turns of not taking damage because you don't want to turn the passive on

[valid surge]

Ohhhh I understand now

Thank you for explaining that

[subtle anchor]

But yeah, overall, I think the direction is cool. It just needs some ironing out. And maybe there's a good balance point between less charge on damage and static charge per turn because as many others have pointed out, with ward absorption (currently) or zeroing attacks, the apex bar doesn't really fill

[valid surge]

Do multihits fill it faster, or is it based on per hit/turn? I havent tested it yet

tested specifically multihits like that yet*

[subtle anchor]

Per target hit/damage dealt from my testing so far

But Odie said they meant to have ward absorption count and maybe self damage

[valid surge]

I think self damage would be a bit busted, as berserk exists

but im all for it regardless >:)

[subtle anchor]

I'd like it for PvE content at least

[valid surge]

I definitely am lookin forward to a patch to make it gain on ward at least

FR

[subtle anchor]

It would open up hunting amities down that increase self status damage

[valid surge]

it's gonna bef un

ohhhh youre right

that + hp regen per turn

[subtle anchor]

Which is the kind of weird Deity stuff I love lol

[valid surge]

This is gonna be awesome

Okay, i gotta hit the hay

But thank you for talking with me about this, i'm really excited to see what happens and what we get

[golden sequoia]

This does sound like a lot of fun the more I read about it. I remember trying diety for a bit and it just kinda blowed, especially since I didn't have any gear best suited for it, so it just ended up getting my mage gear and it became a worse Hera

But this sounds extra spicy

[pale zephyr]

Haha, I agree! I don't know if you want ideas, but I can't help thinking of crazy/cool options. Here are some I gathered/thought of.

Many of these would only be worth using if you got a free turn, and some would not be worth losing the whole apex bar.

It would be way too bloated to have a lot of these actually implemented. These are just some ideas for us to explore, especially for t8 and t9.

Temp buff ideas

1. Temp damage ^ or ^^
2. Gain the ability to hit through immunity/resistance, with perhaps some damage reduction
   3. T att/mag or def/res ^ or ^^
   4. All skills/spells have -20% m1 and +50% m2
   5. All skills/spells have +20% m1 and -20% m2
   6. Spells use att buffs, skills use mag buffs
   7. Gives +10% damage for each temp buff
   8. No temp buffs can fade this turn. The next time any temp buff would fade, this fades and none others
   9. Store apex. Reduce apex by 25%. The next time you cast a 100% apex ability, gain 40% apex back.
   10. This ability becomes the last ability used against you until temp buff fades
   11. Change self damage over time to heal over time
   12. All abilities cost 75% less
   13. Hyper alignment - whatever alignment you have now provides an extra boost.
   14. Rotating alignment, casting a matching single element spell adds damage and recharges apex some
   15. All temp buffs are 50% stronger, and will fade at the end of your next turn
   16. Gain temp immunity to all elements you are currently immune to from unstable omnimancy

[stoic harness]

fwiw i just lost a war fight to [[deity ara]] [[spiked shield 3]]

i think its unlikely to change even after this

[valid surge]

Oh acrually Id like if the blade spells could crit, like ultima/ultimastrikes, so we have a variant that's yes much slower, but still viable to raid with

I could just be bad, but I couldnt hit for more than like 500k with it, fully buffed, vs ultimastrikes that consistently hits 800k-1mill

[exotic ruin]

How do you know? 🤪

[pallid stump]

One thing I'd like to try for tower is dursa swash. First turn woo, if enemies hit you enough for apex then hit all + ss3, if not your probably not in danger and can use regular cs.

Or even hit all + C's and maybe everyone is hit twice.

[fringe nacelle]

That is a really good choice, just like other classes are using CS we could try it with target all + SS1 or smth

Since it's not critting, also Hybrid build means more Apex dmg

[sweet jackal]

@fringe nacelle @pallid stump Tbh it would be simpler to just play Gilga at that point and hit everything with CD synergies. Having a buff that gives the "AoE" property to a single target skill/spell should prompt to explore more options than current ward-based skill meta. I agree they do hit way harder than most of the others, but Beast strikes, Sorties, RSs, Rends etc should still be viable options to consider

Would be cool if Neutra Manyalus had integrated quick cast/instant cast too

[untold blade]

Not as reliable as CS build

[fringe nacelle]

Right now skills like CS are busted (more of that on #1219728600467771543 message) so in high anguish territory it becomes almost impossible to use things outside of it without killing your chances at completing the content

Right now, Apex dmg only scales with high att/mag, things that HM builds have. Exactly like SS skill-line, or verse 4 (verse 4 being worse in this scenario)

If we want to consider optimizing our build to use the best we can the Apex skills (any of them) we need:

• Target all: Any skill, usually one that doesn't miss (as much) in most scenarios and has high M1: (SS/CS). Aka: HM build

• t.Def+++/t.res+++: Non-swash builds

• Apex dmg skill: HM build (main dmg spell there is (SS/CS)

So with a CS/Swash build we can optimize 2 out of the 3 possible Apex-line skills, and that's good enough for me

[pallid stump]

What I mean is a regular cs build but if the apex is charged from taking damage, you cast target all and then use CS or guarding strikes on everyone.

[fringe nacelle]

People are currently using Swash in Cs build... It can also be used the same

[torpid burrow]

I did hit for 1 million once with Neutra.

[untold blade]

Except if you're running some anguish in tower, swash CS in tower aint really interesting imo. Loosing one turn to WoO only to hope for some hit that may fill the apex is just a lost of time (and it will probablynot fill it anyway, because of miss or mobs buffing pretty often)
Better CS first turn, even more with DoF/BoF free turn on kill than building anything around apex. Not sure you want to be at 0def against a floor of beo/nidhogg/immortal/etc at higher floors.

[untold blade]

Yeah i agree, for anguish horde run. I was answering for towering as swash.

[pallid stump]

IMO numbers are irrelevant until we get mirrors and a also the event stuff coming after to boost apex.
Only reference we have is Odie saying he don't want it to be ultima-tier

[fringe nacelle]

That could be an interesting idea if you WoO, apex target all, CS

If Dursa, you may have only 2-turn fights this way

[untold blade]

You base your idea on the fact apex will be fully charged at turn 2. I didnt tried in beta how fast incomong damages fill your apex but i highly doubt it will be the case in the current state of apex.

[torpid burrow]

It's very fast.

[untold blade]

Okkk i just did the test

It is fast af indeed 👍

[coral rock]

If you hit more targets with CS it consumes more ward. 15%×4 and your ward is gone in turn 2 and you won't do the dmg anymore.

Would maybe work in towers but never in dungeons.
Is apex really full at turn 2?
Can't play the beta, blackscreen in dungeons and overall bad performance...

[fringe nacelle]

It currently doesn't work because ward DMG doesn't give apex charge, but the same could be do with GS4

[fringe nacelle]

yeah, haven't tried it, but once apex on ward works, you should be able to get it with swash I think

[untold blade]

I keep thinking it is not worth. At lower floor, i take close to 0 damages. At high floor, i dont think having 0 def is a good strategy.
Considering CS tank build + DoF is already performing really really well, the benefits seems low.

But if the charging rate stay the same under DB, it can be really good for anguish runs tho

[fringe nacelle]

I agree that It's worse than simply going Catha, but it's another build that could work

Theoretically, it should give faster times

[fringe nacelle]

With GS4 you lose the innate miss chance of "1%" of CS(won't talk more about it), but you still have a lot of dex because of deity

[untold blade]

That's the neat part : you dont play cata, you go DoF or BoF for the passive that give extra turn on kill ^^

[craggy creek]

Alright guys, Odie has said we are getting the first beta tweaks. No idea how long but we just gotta be patient #1219672026160042118 message

[pallid stump]

It's very fast when you take damage, but you would only really need it when you take damage anyway.

[fringe nacelle]

That's also really true

[valid surge]

I meant specifically the DUrsa
blades moves

[craggy creek]

I feel like this change is very good for deity, the people that already play deity will stay on it, and it gives the edge to push a few people towards deity over other classes

[torpid burrow]

I will play Deity, anyway.

[finite berry]

This should be the general idea of -most- endgame content

Love this

[stoic bluff]

So far, I'm kind of disappointed with D.Ursa performance, especially with the Apex skills. It could also be gear-related.

It's a cool idea, but I was already teetering on the fence with Deity; I don't think this is enough to tip me in either direction.

[neat whale]

Might want to wait on the patch too

[pallid stump]

Keep in mind that 2 know bugs are affecting dursa perf, damage to ward isn't generating apex and celestials are supposed to have staying power.

Nevermind staying power is now present on celestials.

Apex on ward still not a thing tho.

For me apex is just the cherry on top. The meat of the balance patch is improved t.buff procs + new ways to get them and staying power, making deities t.buffs machines.

[neat whale]

All I hear is Deities going to get even more ridiculous before Conq guild 😄

[pallid stump]

I talked about it rapidly because I'm not a PvP enjoyer, and even Odie mimicked my message because of how ridiculous apex + second chance is

But then I saw a picture of someone with 1 million ward so... 💀

[neat whale]

Ward is easily destroyed by Saboteur unlike raw defense which only has a spec ability locked behind live pvp

[torpid burrow]

So far, I got pretty much the hang of the new Deity and I am not unhappy. I am looking forward to the fixes, so I can get a feel for Staying Power passive. Horde is trivial now with Lacuna Manyalus.

I haven't seen any need for Ultima on Horde. With all buffs up, no debuffs on enemies, Lacuna can hit for 250K damage, wiping the entire floor with Manyalus buff.

771K total damage against 3 enemies, using a Fomor King set, only Legendary, only +1. Weapon is Chimera Staff +13 provided on the beta server to everyone, only one adornment (a broken Heretic Jewel).

This was a last floor.

[teal kestrel]

It looks like Staying Power has been added to the Celestials now.

Tangentially, I just ran a horde dungeon as Ursa with Mammon's Sword off-hand and only noticed getting t. def+ and t. res+ twice the entire time—one instance of t. res+ procced off of a WoO cast, too, so it clearly wasn't triggered on-kill. I'll have to do some additional testing, but preliminary results suggest Ursa's "good chance" of effects being applied on-kill might be a little generous 😅

Actually, I ran a normal, non-horde dungeon afterwards and got a few t. res+ procs (again, one off of a WoO cast), but no t. def+ at all.

Maybe I'm incorrectly assuming that all effects from gear are supposed to have a chance on-kill to be applied simultaneously.

[craggy creek]

Oh, I thought that was how it worked too

Maybe you just got REALLY unlucky...

[fringe nacelle]

Odie said it worked like that, or at least we interpreted it that way

[torpid burrow]

I think all of them have an individual chance of being applied. So you can get anything from zero to all of them.

[teal prawn]

The simple explanation is just that the proc chance is very low.

[subtle anchor]

Which is nonsense for Ara's apex on cast :/ zero for that feels bad

I know at the beginning it was a guaranteed proc of everything but that was deemed too much. I think it swung too far in the other direction

I have yet to get a proc on Ara

I feel like at the very least guaranteeing class passives or gear passives would be really nice - especially on Ara since casting for nothing is a farcry from casting to get an extra turn

Could be one more way to differentiate - Ursa gets higher class passive chance and ara gets higher gear? I dunno

I ran a fair bit of arena on beta - I really don't like apex charging on damage the way it does. It's very all or nothing and the all is kind of bonkers while the nothing is like "why do I have this?"

Still confident it'll all get ironed out.

[craggy creek]

The whole point of the proc on kill thing was to make low chance proc have a high nearly every time proc

[finite berry]

Gonna wait for more ironing out to test more

Feels like we are close but the changes are kinda required

[pallid stump]

The on kill proc have an inner chance that is not the base chance on the item ? I though it was just an additional roll on every buff.

[opaque chasm]

"good chance" to me implies it's different from the base chance. Otherwise it would just be "chance".

[teal girder]

Im assuming people have been talking about Apex not doing much for raids or? maybe im just using it wrong, cant seem to ever charge it before the raid is dead

[pallid stump]

Yes ut charges very slowly even with dursa. It's faster when taking damage but currently a bug make it not work on damage to ward.

[soft steeple]

Afaik offense-based apex charge is fairly slow, and depends on enemy max hp. it's easier when taking damage

[soft steeple]

Has that been confirmed as a bug?

Back in closed beta I was under the impression it was a feature

[pallid stump]

Odie looked surprised and knight talked about a bug that was fixed during closed and came back

[prime mountain]

It did work in the beta for me

[soft steeple]

Ah gotcha

Just a bit ootl here then, carry on

[pallid stump]

I'm in phone so I'm too lazy to search but if you look at Odie messages in this thread you may find it

[prime mountain]

.

[pallid stump]

As I see this in raid currently it will be dursa apex as panic button when taking and offensive never used once you're 245.

Even pre 245 rend/dagger may be better for melee

But that still leave us with a panic button and better t.buff uptime

Also full apex remove any weakness, which is a thing I guess.

Could let you use elemental affinity pets instead of berserk pet for example.

(and add beast garb for good measure )

[teal girder]

Its just odd that its requiring us to lower our stats to be able to take damage so we can charge it to do less damage than ultima (obvs the buffs are nice, but not really needed when a raid boss is at 10%)

Does collateral damage hit the same target twice if theres no other targets, or is it also useless for raids? cos if so i kind of get it

but if not, everyone else's passives seem to help them in raids, but apex doesnt. Tis the only weird thing as raids are a big part of gearing

I like neurta Manyalus, but 2 or 3 turns of aoe after 10 floors to charge doesnt seem like a huge gamechanger when we already have things like ara vesta 2?

just making me feel like im being too obtuse to see the obvious, or i just really dont get it 😛

[pallid stump]

Imo the main feature of the rework is staying power. Apex is just a side and even after Ultima is on, it's still useful in harder raids as it will give you def/res +++

[teal girder]

If you can charge it, which is unlikely to me? i guess unless you mean its good for A.Morri

And i guess will be ok for other realms

[pallid stump]

It will charge fast if the raid start to damage you and then it will double your def.

[teal girder]

And the "main" feature being something you can already get from adornments, amity's and specializations seems a bit lackluster. But once again i know this is a difficult iterative process, and not trying to be an asshole at all

[teal girder]

So its useful the weaker you are, kind of strange when every upgrade i get will make my passive weaker :p

avidity scales SO well with everything, its kind of bonkers, do more damage? well now that damage is doubled if you get another turn

[pallid stump]

Sure it scales less than those 2, but they were created because both classes needed more power, which is not deity's case as per Odie.

[teal girder]

wait so the consensus is that classes with Avidity and CD are weaker than deity currently?

if so, then i obviously just dont understand maths at all haha

Unless its just staying power is supposed to be our parity with avidity and CD, and apex is just a sort of sidegrade that isnt supposed to impove power

[pallid stump]

Consensus idk (I also think those 2 passives are very strong maybe too much) but that's for Odie and his data to decide.

[teal girder]

i thought consensus was deity was pretty terrible untill you are max level, with some of the BIS gear, and highish ascensions, seems odd that is kind of required but we are still apparently "stronger" than other classes, surely its skewed by a tonne of deities being high AL and sticking with the class due to them not wanting to switch for whatever flavour of the month is?

well not terible, just nothing special

Think itll just be sad to get this cool Apex bar added to the game, and then never use it except for extremely niche scenarios

[harsh void]

That's cd for me lols

[teal girder]

isnt CD a passive? surely its just an indirect buff to everything you do as you can possibly hit for another 40%?

[harsh void]

It rarely pushes me to the next floor or it get me killed haha

When it does proc something useful, I go neat. And the other end is cursing it for low health realmys or triggering a ca/reflect

[teal girder]

I mean thats the same with any multi hit ability really, sometimes ara vesta 2 will hit a realmshifter when i dont want it to and weaken it requiring a stun, but then really thats my fault for not targeting the FR first. (obvs unless there is 2)

[harsh void]

Well yes it kills you when there are more than 1

But I'd rather cs hit it than cd. Mighty different results

[pallid stump]

At least cd has some downsides, avidity is just pure KEK

[teal girder]

Idd

avidity proccing is the same as double damage 😛

[torpid burrow]

Been complaining about this since day 1.

[teal girder]

Would just be nice to have something thats "oh your class has this super cool thing? we have THIS super cool thing"

make some people actually WANT to play deity and not from sunken cost falalcy

[torpid burrow]

I think the issue, after testing a lot, is not the slow charge. People are approaching this from the wrong angle.

I think the main issue, the real issue, is the low return.

The damage ones are weaker than the spells we already have, so charging the Apex bar just so you can use an attack that's weaker than the attack you used to charge it feels like a waste.

Even the buff ones feel like a low return since t.def/res+++ is not something you can't find anywhere else.

And casting to trigger the temp buffs feels like a waste since the chance is too low.

It gives a strong feeling of pointlessness.

Only the Manyalus feels like "good", but the duration is too short.

I once casted it, and it lasted exactly ONE attack.

Plus, it's useless on raids.

[teal girder]

I would agree, but id say the slow charge is part of it, if it charged faster and you could use it a few times in a raid (maybe bit less than how many times avidity would proc) the less crazy apex skills wouldnt be as big of a deal

for me raids are a massive chunk of how i play the game, having it be literally pointless for them is v sad

[torpid burrow]

I am not sure. Would you really use 2000 seals when Ultima will hit harder?

[pallid stump]

Gear will probably help it charge faster from attacks

[teal girder]

But if we have to completely gimp ourselves to get SOME use of WEAKER abilities, that seems off

Like lose bulwark, your achlys adorns, ultima becomes weak, so you can maybe use apex once a raid instead?

[limber lily]

It will still be waeaker than ultima. 😄

[teal girder]

exactly

[torpid burrow]

That's my point. The return feels too low for the effort.

[pallid stump]

Yes, and that's not going to change from what Odie said. We don't need something stronger than Ultima. On the other hand we'll have double def button when we need it.

[teal girder]

except we wont have it when we need it as it charges so slow 😛

and is defenses really something deity struggles with?

[pallid stump]

Unless you get one shot, you'll have it.

[teal girder]

but i already 0 most enemies 😦

i guess in endless it might be useful to save yourself vs zerkers

[wheat prawn]

Think about it if you take a fatal blow and survive by a margin that guaranteed t.def3 can save you

[teal girder]

then you're dying on the next turn 😛

[limber lily]

ang is what matters, do you zero ang tower, or ang50 horde dungs? 🤷‍♂️

[pallid stump]

Are you really asking for something to clear faster a raid you already need 30s to clear ?

[teal girder]

Its not that i need it, its that itd be nice for the main class identity is useful for more than JUST the hardest stuff in the game

[teal girder]

This is a good point

though i would point out pyschologically, having to charge a bar and then going BOOM and getting temporary +defenses is quite lackluster and not very exciting

psychologically*

[pallid stump]

The only thing I could see damage wise is using all your apex to 100% all your temp buffs.

[teal girder]

gief a fastISH charging blight ability 😛 that makes ultima better for deities like it should be haha

saves me from having to use lotan ALL the time

[limber lily]

i would like some temp "color" buffs on top of regular buffs....aka "red apex" - increase att by % of your matter (like, 100% apex = 50% att... 30% apex = 15% att) 😁 ...and then many other colors, fill your deity slot

[torpid burrow]

This is really how I see Apex for DAra.

[teal girder]

Im conscious im sounding like i just want to be super strong crazy buffs, which isnt the case, just dont want it to be BORING 😛 worst thing would be this comes out and literally make zero difference to how a lot of people play

[gilded shadow]

Ok just from reading alone i screamed of joy and my neighbours punched the walls to inform me they want to sleep

I will test extensively and give feedback! ^~^

[teal girder]

S2iVi come explain why im being an idiot pls 😛 i feel like theres something im missing, or maybe im just too much of a scrub to take advantage of whats coming

[torpid burrow]

It really made Horde a lot easier for me, as DAra.

[teal girder]

ooh interesting, in what way? more temp buffs and neutra manyalus?

[pallid stump]

Even easier as dursa

[torpid burrow]

Manyalus, yes.

Lacuna/Ultima everyone. Although Lacuna is enough, at my current ang (which is low).

Other than that, I throw a few 2000 seals here and there at raids to try to trigger Embla. Which never happens.

[pallid stump]

And you add faster charge from upcoming gear and it's manyalus fiesta all day long

[teal girder]

I feel like once its on live and i can try everything with my actual char rather than an old mirror, ill probably decide i like it

[torpid burrow]

I think Manyalus will be better with Positive Duration gear.

[torpid burrow]

I farmed my own gear back, so I have a decent idea.

[teal girder]

haha! now that is dedication

[pallid stump]

It seem to not be affected rn as per knight feedbak

[torpid burrow]

I only farmed legendary.

The only thing I am missing is the Rift Helm, but I can live without it.

[teal girder]

Ah, does that mean its also not affected by staying power?

[torpid burrow]

Let's hope it's a bug, and not intended.

[pallid stump]

Yes, but idk if bug or not and to my knowledge odie didn't responded on that.

[teal girder]

irrelevant, but just killing some dynasty with my friend, and I LOVE DRAGON ^^

I cant wait for pristine weapon sprites haha

[pallid stump]

@proper briar did you get feedback on manyalus and temp buff duration ?

[teal girder]

@torpid burrow When you say you use Lacuna, is that from Time Mage spec or?

[proper briar]

No, I asked twice and Odie decided not to answer for now I guess 🤷‍♂️

I assume he saw it at least, since he responded to Goudine right after I asked #1219675348434812998 message

[pallid stump]

Maybe he still don't know if he will let us use it on complete dungeon or not

[teal girder]

Full dungeon will be heavy investment in positive status though i feel

[pallid stump]

Not that much, horde charges apex quite fast

[proper briar]

Tbf, for floors without very high HP enemies all the buffs you're getting stacked on you clear them pretty well

Manyalus is really helpful for Arisen gods or zerk T10s

These changes really make Deity an incredibly powerful but not particularly braindead playstyle class,

[teal girder]

my brain not work good

The "make temp buffs proc" thing works on items such as tethra right?

[pallid stump]

But that could one of the very few high ang horde options that are not CS.

[proper briar]

It should

[proper briar]

Definitely, though at the moment it's looking best to balance it between Manyalus and Sweep depending on floor makup

[torpid burrow]

Lacuna II, Chrono. I can hit for 250K with all buffs on, so it's enough to wipe any floor at my current low ang.

[teal girder]

ahh gotcha

[torpid burrow]

Worth it.

I already invest hard anyway.

[teal girder]

I like it but i struggle giving up the +40% crit dmg amity

[gilded shadow]

Makes me wonder if theres a good AoE setup for ang50, especially with the new passive

Im considering switching from deity to ursa for anguish

[torpid burrow]

You're a very strong player. Can I ask your opinion about my intended playstyle? Would it be a bad idea to use Zaltys for the slots and hp regen, since I need more than 6. I intend to reach 100% T.Res-/-- chance by stacking 6 heretic jewels, and then fill the remaining 2 slots with Positive Duration mortar. I believe between 2 mortars, staying power, and a positive amity, I should be able to keep a very high upkeep, right?

[pallid stump]

The free turn after manyalus make it worth

[torpid burrow]

I don't know. My current ang is 5. I could probably push a bit higher, by 1 or 2 points, but I want to see how deity will end up first.

[gilded shadow]

Manyalus?
Is there a list of the skills?

Theres for sure no category

[gilded shadow]

Spiked shield + finesse = basically free ang 50

[proper briar]

You could try it, generally you'd want to aim for higher magic stat though for clearing anguish

[pallid stump]

Manyalus is an apex that give you a temp buff converting every skill to full screen aoe

If we get some weapon adorns that boost apex gain, I may try flail and crook for anguish.

[gilded shadow]

O.o

I really need a list, its hard

[torpid burrow]

There are like... 6? No... 7.

T8 Damage Apex, T9 Damage Apex can be safely ignored, though.

[pallid stump]

Outside forgettable damage dealing, you have manyalus and another one that give t.def/t.res +++

[torpid burrow]

Yeah, I was going to say this. All damage ones can be ignored.

They are only slightly useful on PvP.

I mean, DUrsa can cast Apex without wasting a turn, so being able to nuke an enemy twice in a single turn is nice.

[finite berry]

Oh what can I help with

[finite berry]

I 100% agree

Have not liked apex from the start. What would you consider fun? Use a specific classline/celestial for reference and i can help elaborate

[teal girder]

i think im definitely undervaluing whats coming, so i feel like maybe i should stfu and try it out

[proper briar]

I do wish mirrors were being offered to more people, because I have said that Apex plays a lot better than it reads

[teal girder]

I think if it was something was charged more, so was useable in more fights to give some interesting abilities but with a "cooldown" (the bar) so to speak. But its going to be crazy hard to balance, i just dont know

Ive got a mirror, hes just from a good while ago, so missing gear, missing AL levels 😦

Avidity to me seems like something FUN, having a chance to get another go in a 1 turn each game is so cool, and allows you to buff up faster, or throw out defensives, or use more attacks. But its just flows a lot better as its a proc chance, with Apex, if it charges fast enough to be like avidity itll be OP (as more reliable) but as slow as it is, its just not even going to get used for a lot of content

whereas avidity, though less reliable is ALWAYS useful in EVERYTHING you do

[finite berry]

We have expressed interest in a different way to charge bar rather than taking damage. It was heard

I think that will help.

To Knights point it does play better than seems on paper. Definitely go try it out.

We also suggested abilities that consume different levels of bar charge. For example, a skill at 25% that procs a t+, 50% procs t++, 100% procs t+++ and an added effect, or something of that nature

[teal girder]

Yeah i defo think when im using it for actual day to day stuff, ill see the value way more. As is trying to jump on beta, and see how it makes a difference to a raid for example is hard

[finite berry]

All that being said, these are just thoughts that would make apex better in its current form. I am not a fan of apex, so Im not the right person to ask in terms of hyping you up about it 😅

[teal girder]

But was just doing some 2 person Dynasty scrolls with a friend, and im sure couple times i couldve procced the defensives or another turn or something

[teal girder]

haha gotcha!

[finite berry]

Personally, I like things like Dorado passive, Gursa passive, Herc passive even, HCorvus passive, RCorvus passive, BeoH passive, etc

[teal girder]

tbh, staying power excites me, as ANYTHING that makes me tethra better makes me happy haha

Speaking of which, Does any enchant their celestial weapons? i was thinking of enchanting the lute with dragon, but will it mess me up in endless with immunities etc 😦 just would be nice for my dragon ++ to affect everything i do and not just ultima

does anyone*

woops that shouldve been in deity channel now that i think about it

[finite berry]

It shouldnt mess you up for endless if you use like terrastrike III for the mobs that are drag immune

[teal girder]

ah thats a good point

[finite berry]

Would bump ur drag damage (if you have other drag buffs) but would make orn runs less lazy

Youd have to think

Which i wouldnt do

[teal girder]

you wouldnt think or you wouldnt do it? 😛

[finite berry]

When running something as grindy as endless

Minimize the amount of thinking

So you can watch tv and distract yourself

10 mins later boom u have 20-50m more orns

[teal girder]

this is true, though would a enchanted dragon lute mean tethra's dragon++ would affect things like mages pavane and ara vesta 2? or do the elementless nature of the spells overwrite the weapon?

need to make mysefl a proper ang build, as i feel like im speaking from a noobs position when i discuss stuff like apex etc. only at 15 currently

[finite berry]

No

Only affects things in the 'skills' tab

[teal girder]

OHHH

ok well screw it, no way im doing that then

[finite berry]

Elements attacks not spells

[teal girder]

i thought MAYBE would be worth the thinking if it made my aoe better, but will only affect sweep then? and sweep needs a 2h anyway so tethra is out of the question

[finite berry]

Yup! Just sweep

Which dragon sweep is good against the ymir event

Also affects SS3

But ya anyways go try apex let us know what u think

[neat whale]

I was kinda thinking after this seperate beta to iron out the wrinkles it would probably hit the liver server beta for fine tuning. But I'm not sure really

[teal girder]

Am i the only one that now we have the little carl dude to change our followers, we should just go the full way and make followers part of a loadout?

[torpid burrow]

No. I agree to this.

[proper briar]

Insulting Asmund by calling him Carl, smh

[pallid stump]

dragon sweep with tethra on DUrsa will be terribly good. Unfortunatelly, the Odie is not back this year (which is a shame IMO, as it's the only source of dragon++ and more importantly the all class 20% vd head)

[proper briar]

Why does everyone forget that PAX did not have the NF employee raids?

[teal girder]

my tethra is 198% so i dont need odie again muaha

[prime mountain]

Odie will be back in may

[pallid stump]

wait, it was ornaversary ?

[proper briar]

I swear, so many people are complaining that Dangy and Odie aren't back.

Well, they were never PAX raids in the first place 😂

[teal girder]

wait werent they? i thought last PAX was all the devs

[prime mountain]

Pax last year had covyn and arisen covyn while ornaversary had everyone

[teal girder]

AHH

[proper briar]

The community has gaslit itself into believing PAX was all devs

[teal girder]

glad we have some people with good memory haha

[teal girder]

tbh i didnt even know people were complaining, i just remembered wrong haha

[pallid stump]

just checked my tethra and it's indeed late may... Sad to wait another 2 months to not get my ornate tethra.

[teal girder]

hehhe

its the luckiest ive EVER been

[proper briar]

I can confirm that Deity Ursa + Ornate Tethra is a great combo

[pallid stump]

I've a 150+ so not too bad, and it's already a good weapon

[proper briar]

A little low on ward, but high damage

[teal girder]

What makes it better on Ursa Knight? sorry my brain is broken today

[proper briar]

I was doing Lute mainhand + Tethra offhand

[teal girder]

i havent been able to drag myself away from base deity tbh

[proper briar]

Deity ursa has a chance to proc any temporary statuses when an enemy dies

[teal girder]

ahh on beta?

[proper briar]

Yeah

[teal girder]

sorry thought you meant on live 😄

[proper briar]

Hence also why I was doing it with a celestial lute

[teal girder]

yeah idd

[pallid stump]

yes because knight has mirror AND ornate tethra

[teal girder]

ill try it out in a mo

[proper briar]

I have a mirror because I'm ORN

[teal girder]

i also have mirror and ornate tethra

[proper briar]

Ornate Tethra because I'm that good at the game || ||

[pallid stump]

A shame Dangy can't mirror this beta, he's too busy browsing memes

[teal girder]

i bet yours has some sexy adornments

[proper briar]

(It's only 174% though, tbf)

[proper briar]

6 8 blackened eyes of kerberos or something like that

[prime mountain]

Me with 10 standard quality tethra's

[teal girder]

👀

[pallid stump]

Lower stats, better name. Deal with it.

[teal girder]

Aha much better name

[prime mountain]

Lower stats shitty name

[proper briar]

Oh I guess I was using it for Ultima last

[teal girder]

Yeah mine is ruby + achlys same as yoshi

[proper briar]

I don't need rubies because the enemy is already dead

[teal girder]

😠 im only AL 25

[proper briar]

(or more seriously - because I'm either DB redlining or not, and either way not using zerk)

[pallid stump]

my name ain't yoshi tho, I'm not that powerful

[prime mountain]

How does manyalus work btw? Similar to CD as in ignoring enemy defenses and never missing?

[proper briar]

No, it can miss. It just literally makes any spell work like Sweep

[torpid burrow]

Nope, I refuse to deal with it, until I have one with an even better name.

[proper briar]

So individual damage rolls per enemy, procs per enemy

If you cast Guarding Strikes 4 you get 3xEnemies Ward turns

[pallid stump]

last I tested, I didn't looked if it was burning 5 times the mana

[teal girder]

better name?

[torpid burrow]

No, mana cost is the same.

[teal girder]

oh hot damn i didnt realise that

[pallid stump]

if you cast WoL3 you get more than 100% if your ward

[proper briar]

It's really cool

I've said it already, Manyalus is my favorite skill in Orna

[pallid stump]

and if you cast sword play, boy oh boy

Another point of manyalus that may not come first in mind, easy summoner raids cleanup

[soft steeple]

Begone, Pests

[teal girder]

like purrly and his army of skeletons

[prime mountain]

So that would also (basically) guarantee all of for example swordplay III buffs?

[proper briar]

Yeah

[prime mountain]

Interesting

[teal girder]

Odie should make high anguish make cursed ortanite drop from everything constantly

but just for me

been blocked by 2k cort 2 AL's in a row now 😦

[neat whale]

I pray anyway, need me an Argos

[prime mountain]

Let's make everyone panic again: Covyn has different drops now so maybe there won't be a next argos or tethra

[teal girder]

Wait, covyn has different drops now? 😮

[neat whale]

Wait, this is a beta thread. I need to pay more attention to where I am posting

[teal girder]

yeah woops its turned into a bit of a jack of all discussion

[finite berry]

Glad the level of activity here is high while we wait for changes. Lets make it higher when changes to apex hit

[gilded shadow]

Okay so i tested extensively, i will do my mourning routine and then write a proper review.
So far, i really cant complain im genuenly happy about the changed so far...

[fringe nacelle]

I am not able to test this, but is it possible to do a Horde as non-dursa, charge apex, swap to Dursa, use Apex, and change to that non-Dursa class to still get the free-turn apex from Dursa?

[pallid stump]

ok but dursa still get better t.buffs uptime in theory, and charges apex faster.

[fringe nacelle]

Yeah, my focus on that test if to check if it's possible to get Dursa's free turn apex (and power) with other deities

[teal kestrel]

Yes, you can. Using an Apex skill on Ursa gets you another turn—then you can flee, switch classes, and re-enter, and it'll still be your turn. Seems like too much effort to me, though 😅

[fringe nacelle]

It's a lot of effort, yeah. But that being possible only reinforces my want for free-turn apex for all deities xD

[pallid stump]

dara only having more damage on apex is underwhelming imo. It should be way more damage because it's a trade for dursa both charging faster and getting a free turn.

[teal kestrel]

I mean, I get it, but I also feel like Odie's intention is to make the two Celestials feel like distinct classes—if they both got free procs on Apex use, they could feel a little muddled. I don't know how best to balance the two while still giving them well-defined identities.

[pallid stump]

not saying ara should change, just that the damage needs to be high enough to compensate for what ursa do

[teal kestrel]

I was mostly referring to the free turn thing.

[mystic basin]

So far, i like the APEX implementation, hopefully we get more interesting apex skills in the future 🙂

[teal kestrel]

It'd be nice, but I also want the two classes to feel unique.

[fringe nacelle]

I was speaking more of all Old Gods class-line, instead of only giving it to Celestials. Power vs Speed is noticeable in my opinion

[pallid stump]

doubt it's happening after beta end

[thorn yacht]

The spells aren't useful or distinct enough to cost as much mp as they do. It seems like they should cost 0 mp and just use apex meter for currency

[pallid stump]

Odie already acknoledged the mana cost

[thorn yacht]

Also, aside from gear similar to the new collateral damage gear and amity's, the charge rate doesn't fit for really any content. On ara at least

[pallid stump]

it's mostly charged through taling damage, and currently there's a bug that make damage to ward not work

[teal girder]

I think its defo a mistake to make charging through taking damage the main way it charges

as you shouldnt be pushed towards taking more damage, unless very specific glass cannon things like swash

[thorn yacht]

I think it's fine if it acknowledges different gear paradigms like actually using ward in raids, where rn most raids are cheesed. But to not be able to proactively play into apex gains feels pretty poor

When apex is treated like a background tech, it's fine. But it can't be with the amount of mana it costs

[torpid burrow]

I does well on horde with AoE spells.

[pallid stump]

#1219675348434812998 message
link to a message from Odie teasing a complete mana cost removal eventually

[proper briar]

Something something fix snapshotting

[pallid stump]

we can't fight it anymore we've to embrace the snapshot

imagine if snapshotting is removed, endless depths goes down significantly.

[fringe nacelle]

No need to snapshot if every class has that passive

[proper briar]

#MakeEndlessDifficultAgain

[harsh void]

That's how I lived as warrior in t9 haha purposely taking damage for my mana regain passive

[pallid stump]

I'm most likely for it, but that would be a bit unfair for those who couldn't farm insane orns while it was possible.

[harsh void]

That's not a reason to make positive changes tho

Best fix for something is now

[pallid stump]

then fix ascension, remove all ascension from everyone

[proper briar]

We're kind of derailing this thread, but tbf except for GS most types of Endless running wouldn't be drastically effected.

[teal kestrel]

Whether or not it'd be positive is kinda subjective. It's also kind of a long-established staple of the game at this point. But also almost entirely unrelated to the Deity rework.

[proper briar]

Yeah, we can have this discussion another place, another time

[teal kestrel]

The Apex bar is preserved when swapping to another non-Deity class (and actually remains visible).

[proper briar]

(Deleted my message because it was kind of incoherent. Just see Elendinn's)

[torpid burrow]

Can they use the spells?

[teal kestrel]

Welllll

Apparently they can't do anything

I swapped to Dorado to see if I could use an Apex skill, but I can't act at all.

I was able to buff...

Hm.

[fringe nacelle]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1097574048294260878 then it seems

[teal kestrel]

Might be a "me" issue. One moment.

[proper briar]

Hmm, no it's me too

But only after I swapped out the dungeon twice

[pallid stump]

if people swapping to dursa to snapshot manyalus become a thing, that would feel terrible.

[teal kestrel]

I didn't have a loadout enabled for Dorado. Once I threw some gear on, it started working.

[proper briar]

I was trying to make a dumb meme screenshot with a Grand Summoner using Manyalus to post with no context in GS Chat

[teal kestrel]

And now it's not working again.

[torpid burrow]

True... IF that aspect of a spell being cast as many times as there are enemies, imagine a summoner sending 3x Hydras in a single turn.

[proper briar]

I don't understand this bug enough to write a bug report

But Orna isn't happy

[pallid stump]

TLDR : don't try to cheese the apex meter

[teal kestrel]

I was able to fill the Apex bar on Ara, then cast Manyalus while on Dorado.

I just can't do anything on Dorado 😅

[proper briar]

You can do 1-2 skills on the class you switch to before the game seizes up and you need to switch back to Deity

[fringe nacelle]

What are the differences (at least the ones we know) between Dara Manyalus and Dursa Manyalus?

[proper briar]

Then after you switch to Deity you can swap back to that other class and do another 1-2 actions

[proper briar]

Nothing

[teal kestrel]

I can cast some spells, like WoO, and use items on a non-Deity class to my heart's content.

[proper briar]

Manyalus is a skill learned by Deity Ara

[pallid stump]

ursa can play after casting manyalus, which is nice. And it charges apex faster while dara hit harder but manyalus ain't hitting anyway.

[fringe nacelle]

That sucks (the interaction I mean)

[proper briar]

I don't see a reason you'd be dungeoning on Ara instead of Ursa anyway

[pallid stump]

blueline is easier

[proper briar]

Since Ursa gets the positive status application boost when it kills an enemy

I don't even bother redlining for horde dungeons 😅

[pallid stump]

but we've to acount for everyone, including people with less AL / gear who may need that redline damage to OS mobs

[teal kestrel]

I'll likely be using Ara for horde still.

[proper briar]

But would you swap classes mid-dungeon for a 'free' manyalus?

[fringe nacelle]

Personally, depending on how i'm feeling, most likely yes in case I need it

[teal kestrel]

I don't expect that I'd need that.

[proper briar]

I mean I'm arguing here that the interaction of being able to charge a bar one class and use it on another isn't something that most people will even bother doing

Imo swapping out mid-dungeon feels terrible to do, and is only justifiable for me for setting up endless.

[pallid stump]

being able to do it between deities is fine, but snapshotting the bar or the buffs for other classes, meh

[thorn yacht]

If ursa got high tenacity while at full apex

[teal kestrel]

I have the gear and ascensions to pop Manyalus while on Ara and not worry about taking major hits. But I also don't really need Manyalus on Ara with all the t. buffs (and the ability to run a Lute now).

Yeah, I thought about giving Ursa HT on full apex, too. I kinda dig that.

[pallid stump]

I use base anyway. you can have perma mag+++ with mimic now so why bother proccing dara buff

[fringe nacelle]

I'd argue something on another end. "Oh, my bar is full, but I can't cast any Apex because there's nothing for my situation that could help me at the cost of a turn" is something that I personally would hate. If I had a mechanic, I'd like to use it (this applies to non-Dursa Old Gods classes)

[thorn yacht]

If ursa got a high tenacity while at full apex, and using apex didn't remove the effect before effect damage, I think it would be fitting for the awkwardness of having redline only

[proper briar]

Imo Ursa is currently the most powerful of the 3 deity classes in beta and doesn't need to be buffed

[teal kestrel]

In its current state, that's true. There'd need to be trade-offs.

[proper briar]

Apex itself is a little clunky and can do with tweaking that effects all 3 deities

[fringe nacelle]

I have limited knowledge about Ursa things, but I also agree on this

[pallid stump]

I'll wait the fix for ward before making a final opinion on apex personally

and the mana reduction

[torpid burrow]

Yeah.

[proper briar]

• Fix for ward
• Mana reduction
• Possible self-damage interaction?
• #1219675348434812998 message

[torpid burrow]

At least, they fixed Staying Power already.

[pallid stump]

self damaage being only double edge and quad edge right ? no including zerk ? or else zerk will become mandatory

[fringe nacelle]

I think zerk will also apply (not saying that it should)

[proper briar]

There are other skills with self damage than double and quad edge, but most likely that type of skill

[thorn yacht]

Zerk giving apex would make base the better ara again imo

[proper briar]

Self damage =/= DoT damage

[pallid stump]

other than those 2 and thinblade, I don't see any

[proper briar]

They function differently within the game, so I don't think Zerk effecting it is a given

[pallid stump]

thinblade hits "ok", if it charges apex fast, it could become the meta

[fringe nacelle]

I know, I was just saying that they might implement it on both of those, since currently iirc status don't give apex charge despite dealing dmg to you

[proper briar]

I was thinking of Thinblade and one of the Charge skills, but I think I mixed up Charge's flavor text with the flavor text of "Takedown" in the pokemon games, and it doesn't actually hurt you

[proper briar]

Thinblade is better than Sortie or Sortie II, so it has that going for it

[pallid stump]

I can also see a quadedge + manyalus + guarding strikes 4 (with ruby) build for anguish.
that means I've to go back to the mine and buy dorado

[proper briar]

Quad Edge is so good on Ursa even in the live game, easy 80% redline for raiding

[fringe nacelle]

Would quadedge instantly kill you if you use it alongside manyalus? 🤔

[proper briar]

Yes

[fringe nacelle]

So double edge would be better with manyalus (since you don't die), and quad without(?)

[pallid stump]

IK but farming a celestial class for those 2 turns gained is rough. I wanted to buy a pet but it'll have to wait

[pallid stump]

double edge is 20% hp so you dead vs 5 enemies

[proper briar]

Double Edge is 10%

[fringe nacelle]

It's 10

[proper briar]

For you Rookie

[fringe nacelle]

I'm currently using it for redlining myself, It's not 20% at all

[fringe nacelle]

speedrun.com suicide%

[pallid stump]

what ? my math is mathing wrong for the past 3 years and it makes quadedge twice more important...

[proper briar]

The fun thing is every enemy died so it wasn't suicide

[pallid stump]

so thinblade is 5% ?

[proper briar]

Yes

[fringe nacelle]

shhhhhh, some things are not meant to be told

[proper briar]

Heavy blade is 3%

Which I forgot about until referencing my spreadsheet

[pallid stump]

the more I play with redline, the more I think we do need a 1 turn spell that gives 100% absorption but cost 50% of current ward or something

[proper briar]

Oceanus Lungs + Walls of Aaru

(not efficient)

[pallid stump]

and not even 100% chance

is like 90 with a 2H

[teal girder]

to be fair, you couldve kept defense and used mana potions

[harsh void]

Yeah tg needs to be slowed down for sure

That's all that would have accomplished tbh

[surreal tartan]

Imo manyalus best spell possible so versatile and cool to use pls don't nerf it 🤝 make pos.stat duration work on it (I don't know If It works or not)

[thorn yacht]

Manyalus makes sense if they make harder raiding content, like 4 raid bosses in a fight to promote group content

[gilded shadow]

Best way is to mash them into one class - then lining and proccs are defined by more def then res and more atk then mag or vica versa.

Then give use a different second celestial that differenciates itself.

Like, for example, one that works like the T9 deitys & Beo Hydrus - good turn 1 but falls off later

[subtle anchor]

hypothetical but would a guaranteed doublecast on the turn after an apex be okay? Doublecasting an apex sounds... potentially breakable hence the next ability after? But then not sure where the procs would end up

And for anyone curious, I did try and doublecast Apex abilities on Ursa/Ara on beta - no gas and that might be intended/good?

Though I guess it just doesn't do much for Barrielus and Manyalus

Assuming you could doublecast on Ursa, that would be 2 extra turns as well if I'm not mistaken

[finite berry]

Cool idea

[finite berry]

There's nothing really unique about it other than on Ursa

[gleaming onyx]

Hi, deity ara main here
I've done a bit of testing, some quick feedbacks

• staying power Is really nice, probably the best addition. I favour long fights with Lots of t.buffs and this empower exactly my playstyle
• Apex looks to add fun to some situation, probably not game breaking but quite the fresh air
• i would really like to have a more versatile Apex Meter. For example: spell using only half or a quarter / spell dealing damage based on how much you have (like mana/Ward consuming skills)
• i read a full Apex Meter solve the UO weakness. Dunno if that's true, but that's really a nice Little things
• there's veery few support Apex spell, also those are limited to celestials. T8, T9 and early T10 would have to use Apex only as a damage dealing feature.
  We've got 8 different classes who could get some nice identity through earlier support Apex, and those would stack to give more flexibility to deities later on. I'm not asking for OP spells, but variety and flexibility. For example, something never explored are t.immunities to status (blind, burn, asleep) T8 and T9 Apex seem a good place for that, and would be consistent wit staying Power lore.
• finally, my only concerne Is that dursa looks way more fun and versatile to play than dara. The should be more equal on what their abilities procs. I don't really want to be forced to play dursa and forego magic cause dara Is such a letdown in comparison 😬

[odd quest]

Since DAra needs changes on how it works, maybe letting the passives have chance to procs everytime DAra hits big number / crit will make it more specialize in raids than waiting it procs when using an apex spell/skill.

Adding an apex skill/spell that cause blight is probably a good idea as well

[stoic harness]

wow a D.Ara passive that apex is full = +40% crit dmg

would be crazy good

[thorn yacht]

50% of the reason I'm compelled to use dara is just mag++, which is a strong and rare buff. This rework hasn't gone into playing into that strength aside from unlocking lute imo, and buff duration

The mag procs are still pretty unreliable

[thorn yacht]

Maybe if they procd dependently, so buffs I already have increase relative chance for ones I don't

[lament anchor]

I would be in favor of that tech, and then advocate paethon get the same treatment

[molten jetty]

I actually would like if deity was non crit as I am kinda tired of gearing for crit

[stoic harness]

d.ursa is non crit tho. Chained Shield and Spike Shield cant crit

(/s)

[austere shuttle]

Totally agree with last part 👌🤘

[lunar glade]

Btw, dursa on beta is able to wear grand summoner's robe, while the non-beta dursa I just bought 5 minutes ago can't. Are celestial ursas getting all equipment back?

[opaque chasm]

Yep

[thorn yacht]

This isn't dara specific, but the game has little ability to rush blueline. A gaudy 1000 mp spell is kinda want, or a class based mana burn (which kinda needs a buff or upgraded version)

[untold blade]

Even Hera doesnt have any tool to do it, why dara should have some?

[austere shuttle]

Hera and Dara should 🤷🏻‍♂️

[pure patrol]

Apex and UO idea: If UO is not going to be removed, I've been thinking on this: weak chances of UO depends on how much apex do you have available. If you have no apex, the weak chance is the standard one. If you have full apex, you have 0% chances of being weak to something. If we have, for example, 50% of the total apex, we get like +x% of not being weak

[fringe nacelle]

UO is removed to be immune to any "weak" when you have full apex, even alignment weak

[pure patrol]

yup, but i've been thinking if it also could work partially when you have partial apex too, but idk if it would be broken

[subtle anchor]

Don't forget that the notes say UO already will proc weakness 50% less withOUT apex full which I think is kind of crazy

[opaque chasm]

I think this rework misses the mark, because it's not even aiming for the right targets in my opinion.

I'm a power gamer. I'm interested in optimizing endgame (AL 100+) performance. I'm also interested in endgame balancing. This is what I'll focus my comments on.

10 months ago I was an AL 25 Heretic, and realized that Heretic is very poor at endgame towers, which I thought (and still think) was the primary endgame content. Disregarding GS, I thought Deity looked like the best endgame tower class. So I switched to Deity. Given the state of the game back then, I think that was a good choice.

Since then the game has changed a lot. Deity has now joined Heretic in the gutter of poor endgame tower classes. I was hoping this rework would address that, but alas, it does very little to help Deity in endgame towers. It might be possible to do an efficient AoE build with the improved temp buff proccing + access to Celestial Lute, looking forward to try that, but that will probably take quite a lot more than 100 ALs to beat CS, especially the CS builds of other classes.

There are other endgame activities than towers. I won't comment on Ang50, since Odie has already said he wants to rework that (I hope that happens sooner rather than later), and I'm not keen on that anyway. Endless is the only content where the rework gives Deity a major performance boost endgame. But that wasn't really needed, since Deity was already one of the best endless performers. The good news is that now you can use Deity to farm a big stack of orns before you HoC to Gilga.

Raids. Disregarding duo raiding, Deity is okay at long raids, but poor at short raids (more on this below). Too bad that all raids except Arisen Morrigan are short. Rework doesn't help very much here, except for the increased temp buff proc rate, which is a very welcome change. Maybe they can now proc before the raid dies.

So what does this rework actually achieve? Odie said NF wants to improve Deity performance for horde, long raids, and PvP. I won't comment on PvP, will need to test it live, but I believe the rework actually does something good here.

I'll never understand how Odie reached the conclusion that Deity needs help with long raids, at any AL. Purpleline, temp buffs, high defenses all help Deity with long raids. On the other hand, Deity has nothing that helps it with short raids (unless you start redlined), other than being able to use all gear.

Likewise, horde? What do you mean, "horde"? Low/mid-anguish horde dungeons? That's Deity's forte. Hybrid stats + lute, temp buffs proccing like crazy, class bonus drop rate, #1 dex, all make Deity S tier when it comes to horde, even at low AL. We've got people putting ALs into Deity as their secondary class for the sole sake of improving horde performance. Why does Deity need help here?

TLDR: When this rework hits live, Deity will over the past year have gone from being one of the best endgame classes and worst early game classes to one of the worst endgame classes and I suppose a pretty decent earlygame class. I don't like it.

[limber lily]

The good news is that now you can use Deity to farm a big stack of orns before you HoC to Gilga.

[austere shuttle]

Agree with this 👍 (except for the horde thing, as underperforming in high anguish is quite annoying/other classes IMO)

[pallid stump]

Ang0 horde, deity is one of the strongest.
Ang50 horde is were it starts to fall off

It's not terrible as dursa can still BoF CS tho

And now it will be better with buff duration, buff on kill and manyalus

[austere shuttle]

It's slower than others and then quite boring to be honnest

Better yes, for sure.

[pallid stump]

I don't think that more is needed for anguish. We'll see when able to use our own gear I think.

[austere shuttle]

I red when Odie said he doesn't want it to become OP, and I agree and understand. Still, most other except heretic are OP (faster and or access earlier and or orn gear) and the previous changes improved massively their "endgames" abilities in this important content. But I m fine, will keep playing deity even if it's still harder on this content.
On tower. i totally agree with Bleevoe comment.

[austere shuttle]

I agree. We ll see with the full things available 🙂 We re just sharing our concerns 👌

[pallid stump]

Yes, short hard fight are what is lacking I think. And I don't see any of the modification changing that.

Unless after ward damage is fixed, manyalus may be the play for that.

[opaque chasm]

Agreed, I did not consider Ang50 a part of "horde". It's a different kind of content.

[stoic harness]

"class bonus drop rate"
"all raids but a.morrigan are short"
"deity is .. best endless performer"
what the heck did I just read

[austere shuttle]

Dungeons on high anguish is one (really) important content in endgames, and for now, except with massive AL there s a gap compared to other classes, and it makes a big difference in farming abilities (easy to check looking to anguish guild level from players/classes).

[stoic harness]

okook I dont wanna just make fun tho, I really think that wall of text wanders inconsistently, and just sounds mad

[stoic harness]

what do you want deity variants to s
do better?

consider for a second T8 and T9 deity exist, what do you think of those?

[austere shuttle]

What s wrong with this text ? It points some endgames players concerns, and feels quite clear IMO 🙂

[craggy creek]

From what I can tell from what Odie said, the goal isn't to make deity best at anything, just decent at everything and this update is to give deity it's identifying ability

[quick drum]

any good news this week?

[hollow reef]

tower is horde too, which i believe was established above to be a weak point

i know it can be difficult to predict the meta and total impact of these class changes in beta. We had the exact same discussions about avidity, bestial bonds, and collateral damage while in beta. the full result of these changes will likely need a few weeks live + gear additions for full impact. i'm excited to see the result when we're there

[opaque chasm]

I had guessed you didn't include towers in "horde", thanks for the clarification. So then I suppose Staying Power, Ursa's turn-on-apex, and Manyalus are intended to help in towers.

At AL100+, I don't see Staying Power helping much. Fights are typically over before buffs have time to both proc and fade. If Staying Power affects chest buffs then it helps for sure, but I think it has been established that chest buffs aren't affected by duration extenders, so I wouldn't expect Staying Power to help here either.

It's not clear to me how often Apex will be filled in tower fights. Will need to test on live. I would have guessed that Apex won't be relevant in most tower fights, but I would be happy if I turn out to be wrong here.

[opaque chasm]

Towers and short raids. And Ang50, except Odie said he instead wants to nerf the other classes' Ang50 capabilities instead of significantly buffing Deity. Which I think is a very sound approach.

I have no opinion on T8 and T9 classes. They matter, but I'm not personally interested.

[opaque chasm]

I will be happy if Deity turns out be decent in endgame towers. Right now it's not.

I guess Deity just barely makes it into the "decent" category for short raids.

[soft steeple]

Just for clarification - Does Deity, or any class really, need "help" at AL100 towers..?

[hollow reef]

At AL100+, I don't see Staying Power helping much. Fights are typically over before buffs have time to both proc and fade

would that indicate that the class would even need help in that content?

ah, beat by Johnny

[soft steeple]

Yours is more ✨ Official ✨

[soft steeple]

One could argue some classes can clear faster than others, but with 100 ascensions, I have a hard time believing any class struggles to clear them altogether
Could be wrong though.

[harsh tusk]

one thing i'm not sure about apex is they are hard locked to diety. no other skills, even the call of ..., is like that.

[finite berry]

You arent wrong. 100ALs struggling to do towers means skill issue

No offense to any of those

[opaque chasm]

If I'm doing towers in 18 minutes and everyone else is doing it in 14 minutes, and towers is all I do, then I need help.

[finite berry]

Ur doing it wrong or others are skewing their data

Petless CS DoF. Avidity and CD only speed it up a tad

Can AV2 dof too

[hollow reef]

interesting to see 14 minutes as our new tower baseline

[soft steeple]

I'm not sure most people would agree with that, even moreso with those numbers - 14 to 18 per tower is just shy of a 30% increase.

[hallow yoke]

next update titan boss appears after 15 minutes in towers

[soft steeple]

Not all classes clear all content with the same ease or the same speed

Grand Summoner clears horde dungeons with ease, but it is slower than everyone else.
They definitely don't need help though.

[quick drum]

I hope to see more diverse Apex skills/buff.

[craggy creek]

Odie already said he is excited by the possibilities of what kind of buffs apex can bring, so I think we will get more unique buffs with it

[finite berry]

Also could just be a matter of full clear vs half clear vs 1 per floor clear

[opaque chasm]

I think this is a very fair point, and I agree with it. This is why I provided the backstory on why I play Deity in the first place. That reason has disappeared.

[finite berry]

Or pet vs petless

Or boss distribution of different towers

[opaque chasm]

You're right, the correct KPI is shards/hour.

[finite berry]

Apples to apples or bust for that comparison

[opaque chasm]

I expect that if Odie looks at the data for shards/hour for all classes at AL100+ over the past month, he will find Deity second to last, just above Heretic.

And the distance to #1 will be in the order of 20-30%.

I think that's a problem, but I realize that is subjective.

[hallow yoke]

compare that to every other mmo i know, a 20-30% speed dif at ultra endgame...lol you would get a platinum dev plaque for that.

[odd quest]

The point is, in shorter raid or horde (like towers), the fight usually over without proc-ing the buff. Is there any "official" opinion for that? Because currently seems like Apex doesn't help those contents

[pallid stump]

14 minutes wtf ? I'm up there for more than 40... Me old, me slow.

Odie, while you're here, can you give us a response to an important question we didn't get news about ? Manyalus seem to not be affected by buff duration and keep its 2-3 turns.

Is it intended to be so short ? It's a strong buff indeed but being this shirt will it be able to change to pace of deity ?

[opaque chasm]

Not if all classes are using the same build...

[finite berry]

Honestly its all pretty close with petless DoF AV2/CS. Doesnt matter what class you're on. Dont see how the class matters there

Other than some extra avidity procs or collateral damage

Thats not the reason why Deity needs a rework anyways

[opaque chasm]

Right, it's Avidity, CD, and summons making up the difference.

[prime mountain]

does petless really matter since the changes to animation speed?

[hollow reef]

there is nothing programmed to treat manyalus's buff differently than others

Today's Apex changes are now live. these changes aim to get the apex charging rates up to a "feels good" level.

Additionally, minimum charge per turn was added

[pallid stump]

Did you found the ward issue culprit?

[hollow reef]

i believe so

[pallid stump]

It works. And the small amount of apex per turn feels nice so far. With those changes, I don't think adding self damage would be needed.

[hollow reef]

self damage was added too

but sure, i'll remove it now

[opaque chasm]

I hadn't realized this before, but I think this actually is a big part of the bad feels.

Every class is doing the same CS build. RS gets Avidity. Gilga gets CD. GS gets summons.

Deity and Heretic get... nothing. They're just strictly worse.

Deity at least gets more defenses, which counts for something.

[craggy creek]

WAIT NO please don't 🥺

[pallid stump]

I've a bug the bar filled mega fast to 90% and now it doesn't move at all in dungeon

Even the fix amount is not given

Happened again but not at 90%. I'm at 40% or something. And now it won't go up again.

Idk how to record screen tho.

Restarting app don't help.

[stoic bluff]

iOS or android?

[stoic bluff]

I approve of this guild.

[pallid stump]

Android

[pallid stump]

Should have been clear, old ass android (don't have that option)

The bug is easy to reproduce. Dursa, start boss dungeon, DB2, viperstrike3 > apex is now stuck.

Got it 3 dungeons in a row

[subtle anchor]

Ursa proc on kills still seems really low or not working

Ara's apex meter isn't filling at all for me currently o.o so can't test procs

[pallid stump]

Nevermind found the record option

[finite berry]

10000%. Noticeable difference. Every turn is extra time spent. If ur pet acts between every extra turn proc, thats time lost

Petless is so fast

[pallid stump]

Is that technology I'm too low AL to understand?

[stoic harness]

petless? no. I mean maybe. Its a severely overl-levelled or over-powered thing

like take ortanite golem into a t5 dungeon, then store it and run again

[hollow reef]

can you confirm whether the second battle is the point where it stops growing? seems the be the case in the video

[pallid stump]

I'll try once more to confirm at what point it breaks.

[hollow reef]

i've confirmed. should be fixed shortly

[pallid stump]

Yes it is. Starting at second floor it stop working

[lost orchid]

Yes, significantly so. Especially if using a pet that acts after ~every turn, like stonedog.

Now I go back to lurking

[coral rock]

But with BB1 amity and Titan follower you get 5% shard bonus

[soft steeple]

get a BB1 amity with -20% pet act rate malus

[pallid stump]

Should I keep posting bugs related to apex here or in beta bugs ?

[neat whale]

If you are certain they are bugs I would post them in the beta bugs area

[pallid stump]

The apex bar can be consumed while petrified without producing any effect, that looks like a bug

[finite berry]

5% shard bonus vs like a 20% increase in speed

Shards per hour

[coral rock]

Can do 30 shards/sec with pet 🤷‍♂️

[finite berry]

Just proving a point. Run pet thats ur choice. Not going out of my way to convince you😉

[coral rock]

I'll try later petless 😂
But maybe wrong place for the discussion 😅

[pallid stump]

Apex is charging MEGA fast right now. Like with dursa you do 2000 blades + US and you already can do 2000 blades.

You can also maintain barrialus pretty consistently

[austere shuttle]

Agree 👍

[austere shuttle]

GS being "slow" on horde anguish is more or a legend than the truth. CS when you have no avidity or col dmg IS slow

It's quite easy to take a look at anguish guild level from players with nearly same activity/time spend on this game to see there s an issue with deity and heretic IMO

[soft steeple]

I never mentioned anguish

[austere shuttle]

In the long run, difference is huge

[subtle anchor]

Is that in PvE content?

[austere shuttle]

Then sorry, red it too quickly. But do high AL GSs turn anguish off ? Not sure !

[soft steeple]

I definitely do

[austere shuttle]

And that's a huge gap since july and anguish start.

Then you re not searching for what Bleevoe talked about : endgame player efficiency/content

[stoic harness]

2000 blade skill is only using 50% of the apex bar, manyalus uses 100%;

the 2000 blades skill still only hits once for, idk, somewhere between, paltry and insignificant dmg

[austere shuttle]

Totally agree. Pointed this some month ago on heretic thread.

[pallid stump]

No, 2000blades uses 100% but it generate 50% by itself after consuming the bar

[subtle anchor]

Yikes. I don't think Apex abilities should charge the bar o.o

It seems like poison is damage charging as well from the little I've done so would a triple zerk Ursa be able to spam 2000 Blades indefinitely right now??

[austere shuttle]

When you have less ease to access some endgame contents + when even with high AL you keep being slower than other classes in the most important contents, it turns into players changing classes or just accept to have this kind of issue/frustration. I was an heretic and choose to go deity as I love being a mage character and wanted to have little more "power" and didn't want to go to "meta" classes, but it's not that complicated to see how those things influence the class player choose. Or I m maybe the only one seing massive numbers or Beo/GS in july, then some players joining RS and Gilga after their rework because it's more effective in those contents.
Sorry for this wall. I know it's not everyone concern, and I ll keep playing deity and enjoy it (and this wonderful game), but regarding balance there s still an issue and I m not sure this rework will help a lot. But as some said, we ll see and I ll keep enjoying this game 🙂

[pallid stump]

Most likely not. What you see should be the small fixed amount you're granted for free every turn.

[pallid stump]

With current charging speed, I would agree to that.

[finite berry]

What would really knock these changes out of the park is a unique 'Ara II' and 'Ursa II' while removing some other passives at their expense.

[pallid stump]

Which passive ? None is just ara or Ursa.

[stoic harness]

man, Cerus can 0 my basic attack out, and 2000 blades still hits for 85% dmg

you should just call this class "Deity Swashalicious"

"Deity Swasha"?

[pallid stump]

Dursa be like "if I swash, you are swash too"

[austere shuttle]

Not sure it really answer your question 😅

[finite berry]

After testing i still dont find apex useful in towers, raids, monuments, or even dungeons (unless anguish50 or endless)

[stoic harness]

multiple zerks + 2k blade only charged slightly more than half

[finite berry]

I can see apex being useful for lower t10/t9/t8, but the mechanic isnt very easy to use. It's rather one of the more difficult ones. For this reason, I can see new t10s avoiding this class even though it was meant to help. Apex doesnt really help later t10s. Sure, its an identity... But it's not a fun one if it's not really usable

You can change the fun factor for late t10s with celestials at least, with an 'Ara II' and 'Ursa II'

[stoic harness]

still only the elemental/elementless dmg nukes for T10, 9 and 8 deity

[finite berry]

So as of now, this new class identity somewhat falls short of what is needed for deity, IMO

Avidity- usable everywhere at all levels

CD - usable everywhere at all levels

BB - usable everywhere at all levels

Apex - usable only somewhat at low levels...

It doesnt need to help a ton it just needs to be usable

[stoic harness]

idk what would be good. every 3rd round in PvP? every 5-6th round in PvE? every 4-5th round in a dungeon? maybe its only a little bit too high

[finite berry]

Does it even help though at that point?

[pallid stump]

It's definitely usable in raids currently. You can use 2000 blades every turn.

[finite berry]

Is it worth using at that low rate?

[stoic harness]

a free nuke that clears a dungeon lvl every 4 lvls would be pretty sweet

[hollow reef]

Staying Power should be seen as 50% of the identity as well, imo. Apex is not 100% identity

[finite berry]

Sure, i can get behind that

[finite berry]

I can get behind that

But

[stoic harness]

I guess I am asking too

[pallid stump]

Imo current iteration is good. Especially since you can now permanently use manyalus (it cost a very high amount of mana to do so but it's possible)