Grand Summoner Hydrus Update

[somber parrot]

GSH use pacts. GSA use summons. That's the goal. Both battle with summons, like a Grand Summoner.

Beta just destroyed this, that's why so many dislikes.

[coral pawn]

❓smoothen the setup and especially the interaction with the Hydrus passive

[warm oasis]

More reasons are that there is more preparatory work for buff time

[coral pawn]

Also due to the poll i'm happy that we had 103 ppl playing the beta and tested beta GSH to its fullest.

[cold crag]

in endless*

You're correct, I don't use GSH for endless. GSA with stacked summons is way more +orn gear and I only do endless for orns (and even then, rarely).

It is unfortunate that the BP endless build suffers with a lack of guidelight. I don't particularly want to see that go away, but at the same time, I'm not sure you're aware of- or are imagining what GSH endless looks like with 1turn ultima, 2x stat passive, a follower, and prebuffed (GSA) summons. And it's hard to make the former exist without also making the latter exist (which outstrips the former by a lot).

[somber parrot]

Any test results will show up in out community.

Not many players in the beta though.

[warm oasis]

I know. The damage is low.

[coral pawn]

I'm happy that you share your results in your community.
I hope you shared every aspect and every content possible🙂

[somber parrot]

All about GSH are shared.

[coral pawn]

Gj then👍

[somber parrot]

(But Diety beta not shared. Many people use this class and focus on any changes.)

English community just don't use and try to leading changes.

[coral pawn]

I would love to take a step back from suggesting someone ain't playing GSH any way or ain't pushing changes, for the sake of a healthy discussion.
Ty🙂

[warm oasis]

[somber parrot]

👍

[latent pumice]

if it doesn't matter at all, why remove it?😂

[cold crag]

I'm saying it is a problem that it exists alongside the other changes, and it should be removed to solve that problem.
Also, that guidelight doesn't fit the class thematically now that the identity is more about "numerous, suicidal summons that don't stick around"

[latent pumice]

by saying that you are already assigning a class identity to the new GSH instead of discussing to shape it tho

i also wonder why it doesn't fit, i mean you dont throw your half-full bullet sack away when using a machines gun

[cold crag]

Yes, that's my opinion on what the identity should be.
Happy to hear your/other thoughts on the identity.

[past jolt]

A follow up on fux's question is what do you guys think the current changes are

Imo it feels more like a power increase than a identity change ngl

The only place where gsh is worse is endless but it was so strong then I feel that's justified

[plain niche]

not with a follower aswell

[past jolt]

Shane is upset because endless was probably his main use of gsh considering how far he is pushing it

And a follower isn't nearly as useful for endless as guidelight

[stone barn]

I'm so surprised that so many people want to keep gsh as it is right now for God only knows how many more months

[past jolt]

If it means we get a full fletched rework in the future I can wait lol

I'm guessing that's how a lot of people feel

[stone barn]

Odie said we can't have both?

Or that if we keep it as it is we get a full rework down the line?

[lyric flicker]

Him and others in his kg have gotten past 2000 using bloodpact at anguish 50

[plain niche]

i doubt that they used anguish 50 all the time in those runs

[past jolt]

Yes it's absurd and broken and Im fine with removing that strategy ngl

[plain niche]

same

[lyric flicker]

I really think the biggest way to fix the current state of both blood pact and gsh would be to make summons update live. So every floor you do it checks your class and makes the stats appropriate for the max stats possible on class. Eg. If your on gsa you get al synergy and gsa passive bonus. If your on grand summoner you get al synergy and gs passive and then if you use hydrus you only get pact damage increase. If stat gear was used to summon that stays permanent. If you didn't you only get max class passive stats. Instead of removing guidelight this would allow bloodpact endless but it won't be as effective

[lyric flicker]

And no I've seen parts of the vid in the 2000s with anguish 50 on and he stopped to heal them to continue going

[plain niche]

if thats so. i think the endless nerf is needed

[lyric flicker]

No that's a bloodpact issue

He was like 100+ als

The state of bloodpact does need a nerf as I've stated summoning with gsa and the going to gsh you get beat of both classes

[plain niche]

if hydrus gets follower and guidelight it just becomes the most broken class in endless

[lyric flicker]

Max summon stats. 800k+ beither

[sinful sluice]

Follower + Guidelight is not happening

The endless people as such are happy ditching the follower

[plain niche]

thank god

[sinful sluice]

But everyone else is happy ditching guidelight

[plain niche]

i almost had heartattack

[past jolt]

in curious @somber parrot do you not think that current gsh is really overpowered in terms of endless compared to other classes?

[lyric flicker]

No it would actually give it a unique view to the class allowing DC and other things like ward upkeep. I think the best way to introduce that is make their pet act rate and stats as close to 1% as possible

So that players have to choose between pet acting and making summon stats

Or pet act rate

[plain niche]

did you just tell me that follower+ gl is not broken

[lyric flicker]

Are you able to read

[somber parrot]

In fact, don't need to use GSA summons, only copies beithir is enough and easy to use.

[past jolt]

He proposed that summon stats update live, in which case it wouldn't be nearly as broken as it is right now

[past jolt]

Ok but do you think it's overpowered?

[lyric flicker]

Shane your using gsa beithir summons

[somber parrot]

I do the endless without change the class and post that at orna legend.

[past jolt]

Ok, that needs a nerf then, why are you against it

[lyric flicker]

Cuz he wants ascending orn gains to be brainded easy

[somber parrot]

It's impossible to re summon them if change to GSA.

[lyric flicker]

No it's not

You use gsa summon them

[past jolt]

I mean I suppose but I just want him to say it lol

[lyric flicker]

And life pact them up

[plain niche]

heavily reduced act AND stats is fine

so you have to build alot act%

[lyric flicker]

Hmm almost as if I offered a solution to the issue that would allow voth

[past jolt]

I mean sure it offers both but the only people that want both are the people playing endless, and endless is really broken regardless

So ngl I don't think it's necessary I'm leaning towards just removing guidelight with the current iteration of gsh

[lyric flicker]

Shane I've seen the vid of your friend I've also seen parts of the vids you do. You already proved that you can get far and you just summon 4 beither on gsa with 1 ancient dragon and life pact hp back. So you have no need to resummon just blast til they almost die then build them up again with a 1.1m life pact 2

[plain niche]

if gsh gets follower and gl then im spamming suggestions " guidedlight bb for summoner followers " xD

[somber parrot]

They will die quickly, if you use Provoke + Rhada

[lyric flicker]

I personally as gsh for orns in dungeons summon with gsa buff with gsa then swap to gsh for a thief chest orns and to save orns

[somber parrot]

So copy summons are better.

[lyric flicker]

Cuz I don't do pvp with my summoner

[past jolt]

Ok, even if that's true you can still get to insanely high floor and it's not balanced

Other classes can't do that

[lyric flicker]

So I don't have a cjo

Well they can it's just a lot harder and takes a lot more specific gear

[past jolt]

Yeah sure I meant at the same gear/Al level

[plain niche]

and a bit of luck lol

[lyric flicker]

At 100 als aka Shane and his whole kg

[lyric flicker]

Yah lucks a factor for all classes tho

I get smacked on gsa and gsh around 300

Reguardless of gear

You can sleep stun stasis on other classes same a gsh

[plain niche]

my highest score is 302 with beoa tmm

[past jolt]

At AL10 without celestials I got floor 400, summoner endless is just so broken

[lyric flicker]

Thief can act multiple times before the enemy does

[wispy phoenix]

Besides, gsa/gs can still get ridiculously deep in endless. Do we really need gsh to be able to do that as well?

[lyric flicker]

Did you swap gear?

[past jolt]

Ofc lol the setup si like an hour long

[lyric flicker]

Cuz I run orn gear only

No I'm talking like after buffing

And it's 20 mins for me

[past jolt]

Oh no I didn't orn gear only

[lyric flicker]

I get done about floor 120-140

Then from there to orn gear only til I get smacked hard enough to pop

[somber parrot]

#864030194779291658 message

Some try?

Just the method difference.

[lyric flicker]

That's cuz no matter how you look at it beo was not built for endless

Beo was never designed with endless in mind

[plain niche]

i dont want to abuse that broken status

[somber parrot]

Beo good enough.

Can do everything.

[past jolt]

I mean that's kinda on you though

[faint remnant]

2000 > 600

[somber parrot]

AL 100-30

[lyric flicker]

It's not

[past jolt]

True but he is al30

[somber parrot]

Oh. 150 -30

[wispy phoenix]

Beo record is still 1400+ iirc

[lyric flicker]

Beo is not a class for endless

[somber parrot]

1st record Als 152

[lyric flicker]

Wonder what gear was used haha

[faint remnant]

And what AL

[lyric flicker]

I feel like it's using beoh

With a stun stasis sleep repeat build

[somber parrot]

Bastion. The beo 1400 record

[plain niche]

yea true. + i dont have enough als to get high enough

[past jolt]

Probably not ngl, bastion spam can get to really high floors with high al

[somber parrot]

With 75% defend amity

[faint remnant]

2000 > 1400 🙃

[wispy phoenix]

Al66 but pre bastion nerf

[somber parrot]

What about AL. I don't know the beo ALs

[past jolt]

Dude all this discussion is proving is that endless needs a rework cause it's absurdly broken, why should it be such a factor for a class rework?

[lyric flicker]

True and with proper amity's the wall x2 you can spam bastion

[somber parrot]

But I can tell you GS is 150+

[plain niche]

i tried to suggest this like a month ago xD

[lyric flicker]

No it's not broken for multiple classes. Most classes have to swap off or gear to keep going.

[somber parrot]

Still waiting for your 1000+ mage record. @lyric flicker

You don't tell me you fogot.

[plain niche]

lmao

[past jolt]

I didn't mean broken as in overpowered, I meant it literally

[wispy phoenix]

The entire game is lol. At endgame everyone and their grandma is using ultima and cs and it's so broken. The meta is soo stale atm

[lyric flicker]

Never spoke to you about 1000+ mage record. Your smoking sumthing

[wispy phoenix]

It's one of the reasons Ive lost interest in the game

[past jolt]

It's literally broken you have to cheese the game and abuse the most broken mechanics to get high, it shouldn't be a factor for a rework imo

[plain niche]

suggestion" remove endless"

[wispy phoenix]

There already is one

Zahar reached f1000+ ages ago

[faint remnant]

That's a combination of an infinite scaling system, crazy scaling abilities and power creeping gear though not just any single class

[lyric flicker]

Yes that's been one of the biggest things me and a few others talked about in DMS. Using chained shield and Ultima for pve. Use chained shield and magic chakram for pvp

[somber parrot]

Not SpikeShield. That's not mage.

[wispy phoenix]

It was not spiked shield iirc

[lyric flicker]

It's the only reason they are reworking passives on gsh

[plain niche]

is stasis a beo skill

[somber parrot]

So. Spec can't use?

Then remove the spec.

[past jolt]

Ok so shouldn't we consider what is fun and cool at low ascenscions instead of what is most effective for the meta in 100+ ascenscions?

[lyric flicker]

That is mage wrecked used sweep for anguish lmfao on heretic

[plain niche]

you can.

[lyric flicker]

Uh the issue is you don't need much Al and 0 gear to make bp and issue

[somber parrot]

Why 0 gear.

You need full gear.

[lyric flicker]

No you don't

[somber parrot]

You played?

[lyric flicker]

You just need 2 celestial classes

Gsa and gsh

[somber parrot]

The cele lute is definitely necessary.

[plain niche]

• if you start the argument with " thats spiked shield " then we should lock all spells to their classes. buffs etc.

[lyric flicker]

From there you can make bp do 2-3 mil a turn

With like 5 als

[somber parrot]

Who 5 als.

[lyric flicker]

Pleanty of player

[plain niche]

i have like 0 als xD

on gs

[lyric flicker]

I was damage capping Ultima on base grand summoner with 16 als

[somber parrot]

Not so exaggerate guys. I know you hate me and GS very much.

[lyric flicker]

Most people don't play gs

[somber parrot]

Like you see it by yourself.

[lyric flicker]

Because it's such a funky class

No it's not that we hate you

[plain niche]

i dont hate gs tho. i used to play that before i went for beo

[lyric flicker]

It's you have enough of the player base who are grand summoners who agree it's an issue

[past jolt]

We don't hate you, you're just speaking only on behalf of like less that 1% of players, when the rework isn't targeted at you

[somber parrot]

Not you. The nonsense guys.

[lyric flicker]

But 5 als grand summoner you can make blood pact do a shit ton with minimal gear reqs

[latent pumice]

i believe its not on behalf of the minority

[somber parrot]

I don’t want to deal with it anymore.

[latent pumice]

given that most ppl want the rework to delay

[past jolt]

I want it delayed but not for the reasons Shane does

[lyric flicker]

You aren't required to keep responding Shane you can leave when you'd like

[latent pumice]

at the very least this is what i see from the vote

[lyric flicker]

Yah I'd say there's a lot of people who would prefer the rework wait and get more attention

[pine topaz]

Gsh and gsa pairing does need to be somewhat corrected as you can set up the hydrus passive, switch to auriga get out the bulky summons and switch back and the passive is still charged, which is a little too unfair.

[past jolt]

Shane wants it delayed because it breaks his strategy, I want it delayed because I want a full rework like deity got

[latent pumice]

that does not contradict my point tho

[lyric flicker]

How do you charge the gsh passive lol I actually don't know

Like I'm dead summons

[pine topaz]

Kill up to 10 summons

[lyric flicker]

But like does it max out does it go on forever

[past jolt]

It does, because he is still speaking on behalf the minority(high AL gsh endless mains)

[latent pumice]

i know a lot of ppl aiming the same as Shane, and lots of them aims the same with you as well

[somber parrot]

It's like delete a class and make a new. I already reach my goal so I'll not do endless in some months.

[faint remnant]

Maxes at 100

Each floor you appear to get the summon deaths of the previous floor since they go away as well at least on beta

[somber parrot]

It's just not playable enough.

[past jolt]

thats so not true, the only thing deleted is guidelight lol

[somber parrot]

The beta GSH.

[latent pumice]

depends on your definition of majority and minority

[pine topaz]

We could rework auriga as well as intelligent summons needs looking at, because in comparison to beoa intelligent followers it is really bad

[latent pumice]

imo for those who dont even play GSH they shouldn't be counted into the majority

[somber parrot]

What GSH can do in beta is too little and far from good.

[lyric flicker]

So Shane the mane issue right now and the points you've made are less than 1% of grand summoners. It's like 15-20% of the player base have more than 50 als and of that % I'd say probably about 5-10% are alts for the 15-20%

[somber parrot]

AoE pact?

[past jolt]

extremely high AL players are absolutely the minority

[latent pumice]

but that might be an inappropriate claim

[somber parrot]

Preferred weapon?

[pine topaz]

Already suggested multiple times

[latent pumice]

even himself is not extremely high AL players

[somber parrot]

A little high states?

[past jolt]

150ALs isnt extremely high?

thats so far off of casual play

[latent pumice]

what you talking about?

[past jolt]

shane said he is 150al, didnt he

[latent pumice]

never have i heard Shane being 150AL

[pine topaz]

Compared to the majority of gs mains which are 10-40

[somber parrot]

150 is N1XXX.

[past jolt]

and he does the same strategy im guessing?

[lyric flicker]

Hey that's me al23

[latent pumice]

in fact quite a few people ranging from 30-150ALs use similar strats

[somber parrot]

Yes. Our community do research about endless. So everyone can get high floors.

Low ALs GSH only do little dmg with BP.

[lyric flicker]

You gatekept the build used when I asked bro

[pine topaz]

Im 31 and with a bit of setting up got 20 mil with no buffs so....

[lyric flicker]

Said not telling you because it's gonna be removed soon

That was 2 weeks ago

[somber parrot]

20m but facing high res enemy, that's not enough.

You may hit 0 at zerk heretic.

[past jolt]

doesnt blood pact have like one of the highest penetrations in the game?

[pine topaz]

Yup

[lyric flicker]

Yah it currently rivals Ultima 1

[pine topaz]

Never happened, usually with minimal setup i can get up to 400k easily and against a zerk fallen that only drops to about 360k

[latent pumice]

blood pact is very good only in high ALs

given the quad scale

in low ALs its useable

[past jolt]

but gsh doesnt have quad scale

does it?

[cold crag]

it does in this case

[lyric flicker]

No it's rather strong early too

[cold crag]

you get AL +stats during summoning, and AL +mag during BPing

[past jolt]

ah cause gsa summons, right

[somber parrot]

If you use GSA summons, it dose.

[faint remnant]

To me this conversation sounds like GSH should have the rework go through to slightly scale it back in line with other classes

And then perhaps a more significant rework down the road??

[somber parrot]

If you use GSH, it's not.

[past jolt]

wait shane so you are saying you dont use gsa summons?

[somber parrot]

Yes

[lyric flicker]

100% backwards

[somber parrot]

I told you.

The copy summons are better.

[past jolt]

you got to floor 1400 without using gsa summons, how is that balanced?

[lyric flicker]

It's not a class for anything but endless

[past jolt]

that seems absurd to me sorry

[plain niche]

trust me it is

[pine topaz]

Pvp and raiding

[somber parrot]

You can control enemies and do it carefully.

[lyric flicker]

Yah places that any char with 10 als. An hit damage cap

[somber parrot]

Prepare a 23 hour endless.

It's a goal run not a orn run..

[lyric flicker]

Like if we are talking early and casual player gsh is not a class because you can't summon with gsa prior

Pvp it's only an issue if you can't hit the gsh. But gsh is already worst live pvp class

[pine topaz]

Not an issue you can get by with minimal gear investment

[pine topaz]

Live pvp yes but farming arena and coliseum is great

[past jolt]

all of this discussion just comes back to endless being absolutely unbalanced, we arent even proposing or discussing what could be done to gsh for everyone to be happy

[lyric flicker]

Even then it takes investment to make it worth using

[faint remnant]

^^^ this is definitely different than the Deity discussion where people were throwing ideas out and discussing them right and left

(Might be part of why 3 classes are pretty much ready for live)

[latent pumice]

accusing GSH being imba while ignoring the efforts spent is just as absurd

[past jolt]

i mean yeah because the deity changes were like a full-blown rework but i agree we need more of that and less of whatever is currently going on

[faint remnant]

Okay so what if Hydrus had something like "when killing an enemy with a pact, you have a small chance of summoning a shade of that enemy"??

Really make it the suicide bomber class

[pine topaz]

With only the staff with investment (couldn't find an unupgraded cowl) currently

[cold crag]

This whole subthread is exceptionally weird.

Does endless depth matter? Not really, beyond the achievement.
Endless orns is the main progression concern, and I'm pretty sure that GSH BP endless isn't even the best at endless orns, even for GS.
Endless is also a very small fraction of playtime in the endgame, since you get all the orns you need to ascend for a year in a few days at most.

Beyond that: gauntlet re-entry for the purposes of snapshotting is a super-long-term bug (used to be considered an exploit), and quad-scaling BP is itself described in this very thread as a thing that will be fixed in the future.

[somber parrot]

Every class has something good at. Heretic kill raid quickly, then keep it. Beo good at everything, no one mentioned the nerf now. Gilga SS op, make it better. GSH only BP.

[lyric flicker]

It 100% is not in a state that is ready for live especially because the only reason it's getting reworked is endless. It's raiding skills and PVP skills are equal to other classes. If you Wana talk about over powered pvp classes your looking at gilga. And raids every class can damage cap. Some faster than others

[somber parrot]

Want to kill a Savant syndrome, at least make it good at something.

[past jolt]

wait endless is for sure not the reason gsh is getting reworked?

[somber parrot]

Being a jack of all trades is not playable.

[pine topaz]

If we remove the endless issue, i think we should also find a way to make raiding a nicer experience because efficienct bp raiding takes a long time to set up compared to other classes

[lyric flicker]

How much magic you got

[plain niche]

what if hydrus gets own "guided light" something like when a enemy dies you cast summon dead before the next battle starts

more focused on hypa^^

[pine topaz]

5563 but that was me shoving on random gear i had in my inventory, i get an extra 3000 with investment.

[somber parrot]

GSH is not good enough for everything, it's just a little copy of heretic. Bad and no special features. Some just want Ultima again.

[faint remnant]

@lyric flicker My point being: where are the ideas?

Deity has 3 classes pretty much ready to go.

There is one being discussed here that isn't even really being discussed

Throw out some ideas! 😀

[pine topaz]

Believe me we've been throwing ideas for weeks

[lyric flicker]

I've given it 3 times in this thread alone. And every time I've stated it someone says that's gonna take a lot longer than the deity rework will or more players will be mad about it than nf is willing to make the change

I've given multiple ideas

[somber parrot]

There used to be a special bug like that, if GSH kill all summons at one floor, the 1 and 2 summons will resummon next floor.

[lyric flicker]

I think to rework one part of a class line you need to look at how it performs compared to others at the same content and understand specific classes are better for specific things.

[pine topaz]

Because each dungeon floor counts as a new fight hence paired essence starts

[pine topaz]

And is still a thing

[cold crag]

the Paired Essence bug was reinstated, wasn't it?

[lyric flicker]

Your also using a staff for pact damage.

[somber parrot]

I think it fixed.

[cold crag]

It was fixed, then it was unfixed.

[lyric flicker]

With the current rework stuff. Yah

[faint remnant]

Okay but like people did in the Deity thread, link back to the ideas- keep discussions going.

People were gathering in the OL chat for Deity and woodshedding all kinds of stuff and then presenting basically a community consensus of ideas in a big thread for Odie/the team to see. If discussion started to wander or people started to just argue, they took it to OL again and relinked to the big idea posts

[pine topaz]

Yeah but most people trying to go down the gsh route will probably get that first as the easiest fix for damage rather than hunting ornates

[faint remnant]

I admit I'm coming to this one a bit late but I've read through almost everything from the past week and it feels like a lot fewer ideas being posted

So apologies if I'm just ignorant 😅

[pine topaz]

fknkain keeps doing that, most of the discussion points are pinned

[faint remnant]

So what can we work with from the pins? Can people come up with an add or takeaway or set of them that a general consensus could gather on?

[pine topaz]

Well we've given the ideas but not much we can do after that as in the end its up to odie what changes happen

Discussion now is mostly: can we reach a consensus where the majority of gsh players are happy

[somber parrot]

Beta GSH still too many turns at raid.

[plain niche]

less turns at buffing

or warding

[pine topaz]

We also suggested exploding summons

[faint remnant]

Isn't that sort of Hydrus Pact?

[somber parrot]

About raid. A little better than GSH now. But giving up too many things.

Hydrus low dmg now, very very low.

[cold crag]

Your findings, rewritten tabular:

hard raid: slow -> normal
duo raid: no change
horde boss: no change
horde ang: good -> impossible (req. snapshot)
party: no change
tower: no change
endless: perfect -> bad (req. snapshot, quad-AL BP)
territory off: no change
territory def: no change
live pvp: impossible -> bad```
\+ on easy/hard raids and on live pvp
\- on horde ang and endless

[coral pawn]

Horde Ang and towers can be done with CS BoF as beta GSH

[somber parrot]

The said AL affect summons is impossible.

[cold crag]

I disagree that GSH endless is "perfect", certainly. Depth doesn't matter; what orn rate are you pulling? 200mil/hr, 300, 400?

[somber parrot]

So ignore the suggestion.

[faint remnant]

I don't think there's really a way to assess live PvP on beta

[cold crag]

GS, GSA, GSH live pvp is very bad but that's a GS-wide problem and probably something worth fixing in a more dedicated live pvp changeset not this patch imo. 🤷‍♂️

[faint remnant]

Fair! I'm guessing the house rules don't help a ton there either

[somber parrot]

#1009229920087593000 message if pure orns run, gsa better.

[cold crag]

... So GSH endless isn't perfect 😅 Or arguably even good.

[pine topaz]

They can help actually but you need to go first not miss and guarantee hitting 50%

[faint remnant]

Sounds like Live PvP for every non-Collateral Damage or Avidity class haha

[somber parrot]

You have to change some equipment to pact boost. But can still change back to orns with Delicious enemies.

GSH can reach high but GSA is more relax.

[faint remnant]

So working from Shane's post-

What would improve Hord Ang or Tower? I'm guessing those are two areas where Hydrus could be made more relevant?

[coral pawn]

#1219672026160042118 message

[somber parrot]

GSA can do CS better

[faint remnant]

Whoops! You are correct!

[cold crag]

I think the current changeset does actually improve horde boss/horde ang.

For the former, follower and stat passive (unreliable, but still there) lets you mass aoe which is faster than summons or non-1-shot aoe.
For the latter, follower and stat passive greatly improves CS, which is "the anguish solver" until that issue gets addressed.

[somber parrot]

With SpikeShield and warrior equipment.

[faint remnant]

Sorry it is 4am here and I should be asleep lol

[faint remnant]

Would a Bestial Bond 1 help or hinder anything too much? If GSH is supposed to be the Pet/Summon guy?

[somber parrot]

And GSH CS don't have enough ward recovery if play CS. And not enough states.

[cold crag]

Not sure it's needed.

[coral pawn]

Ward follower

[faint remnant]

What would you add or take away from GSH on beta?

If anything?

[cold crag]

Zero, honestly. I voted ship it. 🤷‍♂️ Can improve HPact more later, and a lot of smaller changes instead of a big bang change that takes multiple months of dev.

[faint remnant]

Totally valid

[somber parrot]

Still.3 GS can use SpikeShield in no anguish tower it because no need to recovery ward. Warrior no mention, beo good followers.

Ultima and SS...

#1219672026160042118 message

[cold crag]

Fixing Ultima and CS are my number one game change request 😅
But -- that's not really a GSH patch.

[somber parrot]

Build here. We tried. Even with followers it's far from enough in anguish horde.

A good AoE pact and some states boost may fix.

Pact. The change should in this direction. Not Ultima or SS.

(beo can do 50 Anguish horde with 19 ALs, if you want to see video I can dm you.)

[plain niche]

with full ward yes

it can

[somber parrot]

Fast and stable.

But that's how beo work, good at everything.

[plain niche]

but beo with those als cant go for orn+

[somber parrot]

Why not? The old play style still work.

[coral pawn]

I dunno, worked like a charm at AL80

[plain niche]

that looked easy

[coral pawn]

Also i never said it's better than GSA at towers it's just able to do it now. So saying nothing changed for towers and Anguish horde is impossible ain't true.

[somber parrot]

Ok , try at AL 50.

[plain niche]

is al 50 supposed to do the same as al80

[somber parrot]

And if it's allowed,dm me the full video

Start at 1 floor with 50 anguish.

[plain niche]

who uses ang 50 at buffing turns

[gentle quarry]

min maxers

[somber parrot]

Why not?

You cant change at WV.
( hope anguish can be changed everywhere)

[coral pawn]

Don't have a full vid but can set one up over the course of the day.

[plain niche]

i think its still possible to do ang 50 from 1-25 with beta gsh chained

with 80 als

you just need enough ward and a pet that recovers ward while you buff up( i think)

[wispy phoenix]

I have no idea anymore what's being discussed in this thread ngl

[plain niche]

what beta gsh can and can not do xD

[cold crag]

evaluating beta v. live gsh in different areas, such as ang50 horde boss ||which as we all know, is a baseline expectation for players above like AL10 or something||

[sinful sluice]

Just to make it clear for everyone:
There have been plenty of different suggestions thrown around at various different points throughout the beta.
There is currently not a big suggestion talk since the main conversation topic is Ship It vs Don't Ship it.

The main "factions" of this discussions are mainly the GSH Endless people vs the GSH Everywhere Else people, with a dash of Power Level faction (HyPa vs Ultima vs BP) with a small portion of people wanting something else (More flavour, More identity, etc)

• For the most part, those that defend GSH Endless should remain unharmed stand firm on that ground, which harms the ability for the class to flourish elsewhere. As has been stated, Guidelight is needed for Endless, but it is also unreasonable to keep Guidelight with Pets.

• It has been noted from Odie that GSH Endless is overtuned, and that it is not a priority to keep alive #1219672026160042118 message , so there's only so much weight that the GSH Endless faction can pull. Odie believes people might be holding onto endless too much #1219672026160042118 message Moreso when they're a minority - who craves it only for records, and actively kept their achievements secret 😅

• From the Power Level faction, it is important to note that Odie has also mentioned that he has no intentions to make any other spell that is comparable nor outclassing Ultima #1219672026160042118 message , as fixing powercreep with powercreep isn't exactly a smart idea.

• For the Flavour/Identity faction, Odie is okay with delaying the release of GSH to give it more flavour (first odie link), but those that fear that GSH feels too close to a mage will, unsurprisingly, be met with something that is close to a mage #1219672026160042118 message

[mint sluice]

When talking about shipping it, idk if this update will be live directly or live beta for some time. If it's live beta, doesn't cost anything to ship it and try it and if you really hate it, you still have the option to opt out of beta.

[somber parrot]

No need to vote if it's live beta.

[cunning marlin]

Yeah

[past jolt]

ideally id like the current gsh to get shipped but only if that means it still will get a large identity change like the deity rework in the future

live beta would be cool for more practical tests though

[somber parrot]

Can try to make it overpower then fix. Like Diety before https://youtu.be/-kwaqON0aMs?si=xG_D8Lpn89_MZs_K

[safe wyvern]

If you like BP cause it is an easy to use and follow the fantasy of the pact class hydrus was suposed to be ( Read Grand summoner Hydrus passive for more info), the rework right now is a nerf for tematic dungeon, and fights that you need to resummon pets every fight, High floor became a gamble because one summon makes you feel miserable and now you need to follow the idiotic meta of a Ultima spam because you just take off part of the sauce from the class in favor of a pet, i really dont give a shit for elisian, but GSH needs to be viable to use Pacts and Pacts were nerfed in the first turn, all defenders to ship it dont use BP like this and it is the "expected way to play it" based on its passive and even have the highest HP Summon and now a Pact of its own

TL; DR Give at least PE4 Before Shipping it

[wispy phoenix]

not sure if this is meant as an objective overview of the discussion but it seems very biased to me

[sinful sluice]

I try to be objective, but I'm only human, I can't pretend not to be biased

[somber parrot]

Why slowmode, i don't think too many people here.

[sinful sluice]

I was mainly trying to convey the repeated discussion topics and official answers that have been given to them thus far

[sinful sluice]

Going forward, Slow mode is the default for every feedback thread - it lets people think more about what they are writing, and flood the channel less, which increases valuable output and makes it easier for people to read it looking back.

[wispy phoenix]

it does seem like most people who voted to delay the class did it because of endless tho

[sinful sluice]

Oh, for the record, I did not mean to make it seem that Delay vs Ship equals Endless vs Everywhere Else

While the Endless people are definitely on the Delay pile, there are people on the Everywhere Else group that also have valid reasons for voting Delay

[safe wyvern]

I voted for delay because this rework just make me wanna say, fuck it, GSA is now faster anywhere except for raids FOR ME

[wispy phoenix]

inb4 poll on why we voted the way we did

[safe wyvern]

I need to summon an Extra Summon each fight in tower to make the HP mark to kill things and its idiotic to be nerfed because of snapshotting, I thought we would have some changed to help out PE4> PE2 and now its just a nerf, and I wont even start that HyPa Depends on a T8 skill and a 1000- summon to survive

[wispy phoenix]

honestly I would still like to test if PE4 is balanced on the current iteration of gsh. I think it would be able to solve the current issues to some degree, such as:

• faster raid setup, whether you use BP or hypa
• better tower capability
• pact endless (still not on guidelight level but probably similar to qc ultima)
• better live pvp

[sinful sluice]

PE4 = PE2 in live pvp.
agreed on the other topics though

[somber parrot]

If it allow, pact better than Ultima（just for emotion)

[safe wyvern]

PE2 is already the rule in live pvp

[wispy phoenix]

you dont reach the pact m1 cap with 1 summon pretty sure

[sinful sluice]

Live pvp forces PE4 to act like PE2

[safe wyvern]

yes... so no changes there if we have PE4

[wispy phoenix]

oh yeah house rules, forgot about that

[safe wyvern]

if house rule changes they can mess with that there

[somber parrot]

You don't have methods to deal with avidity/mana rush/bastion/second chance. And only one weak summon in Bof means low pact dmg. With low class states. Beta didn't fix that.

[wispy phoenix]

yeah, but I guess the addition of a pet is still going to make live pvp better

[safe wyvern]

this is a stuff to be tackled latter, all summoners have the same problem at live pvp and its kinda hard to test live pvp at beta

[somber parrot]

A little better then not playable live pvp now. Just a little.

[wispy phoenix]

I think summoners will always be at a disadvantage as long as that house rule remains

[safe wyvern]

I think most ppl defending BP/HyPa would be fine with
PE4 > Hydrus PE4 - Summons 2 summons every floor (just like pe2 in beta but 2 summons)
Elisian Guidelight - Gone
future summon with 3+/self replicate capabilities for HyPa ( just a wish, it could have only self replicate for the HyPa Fantasy )
No Follower - Follower

it would make ultima happy, pact happy and cheesers sad, so it is a win win win

[plain niche]

hey i did use summons at live pvp at somepoint

[pine topaz]

This should help see how far we have to go

[wispy phoenix]

I would say I like most of the changes, I just want there to be more changes

[brisk surge]

I still think it should feel like a necromancer of you're sacrifice your summons and not caring about their lives, replace them with skeletons or resummon them after death but don't let them attack or defend etc

Would speed up blood pact

Like sure, gsh hates their summons, but we still NEED the summons to do damage with pacts, so it would make sense that we have a steady stream of summons rather than this awkward however many turn summon, then sacrifice, summons, sacrifice, summon, THEN buff, then pact or whatever

Could really just let us have more than 1 summon at the start, but make them unable to attack or defend us. Could even give us 3 or more summons but make them useless and die on turn 1

Even just 2, then make them useless

Or just make it so we can 1 turn summon regardless and make the summon stupid and unable to attack and defend again. It would speed it up, you could call it "unstable summoning" as a passive, making it so the summon is hastily prepared, and unable to do anything.

Or it dies after X turns.

Because it all takes SO long to set up, the addition of the follower is great, but everything is still so clunky, you basically HAVE to use riftlocks or you will spend 20 or more turns doing setup.

Which ruins build diversity.

[sinful garnet]

Interesting thought. Lorewise GSA would use the summons to fight for him, while GSA uses the summons to enhance his own powers, by using their lifeforce or even kill them at once.
In the future GSA should suck certain aspects out of the summons and apply them as temp buff to himself - e.g. like the bonds work, only temporary.
Maximum use of the summons, without mercy.

[lament panther]

if necro, what if gsh gets a passive that is guidelight but summons gets weaker each floor so that it will eventually have to be replaced by fresh summons.

[brisk surge]

You mean GSH?

[thorn rapids]

This is why I think GSH should get a passive that just makes any summon summon a second (or third) copy, your summons are weaker anyways and don't benefit from ascension so if you use a one turn spell like say summon garm and are guaranteed to get 3 garms from one cast you've cut the amount of setup turns substantially, even a multi turn summon like mighty griffin getting a second or third off of a single cast would also drastically cut setup time, and with an already multi summon spell like scary skeletons you could have the potential to fill the field with 5 on one cast with the right gear to make it a single turn cast, this makes the lack of guide light not so bad while keeping the flavor of GSH being about the summoners power and pacts rather than thr summons

[cold crag]

If GSH needs more power:

• passive that increases count of summons
• passive that decreases turn cost of summons
• autosummons something weak every turn/floor/randomly/on-enemy kill
  ... would all be in line with a vision of GSH having "lots of unimportant summons that only die".

For completeness, GSA could have corollary changes to distance it from GS/H, also if needed:

• passive that increases summon power the longer they stay on the field
• autohealing of summons
• second chance for summons
  ... though atm I don't think GSA needs much/any more power.

||Fun random idea -- GSA passive that makes summons even more important/stronger/durable, but if all your summons die you die. That would be a very fun drawback.||

[safe wyvern]

generally you die before them

[latent pumice]

it looks fun but i had never met such situation in my entire summoner life😂

AD and hydras are chonky

btw here is an idea for GSH rework: what if we have a passive that transfer part of the dmg we taken into summons?

[cold crag]

That would be good, if GSH needs (thematic) defenses. Though it lost Battalions precisely because it doesn't need such defenses, and that works similarly.

[cold crag]

Certainly wouldn't mind more pve threats that use doom and Lunar strikes. And would matter in pvp, were it to exist.

[hidden zealot]

I just want a well design soul system that GSH can utilize that synergize well with most of the beta change + more interesting soul interacting pacts.

[sinful garnet]

'Lifelink'

If GSH needs to be adjusted by adding unique features and not just increasing stats: Give all summons a unique temp stat that can be consumed by sacrificing them. E.g. Spiritgarm has T mag+++ and you get it for one turn per SG sacrificed. Or a Golem has 5 Ward turns you get., basilisk petr. immunity, and so on

[pulsar steppe]

Necro is live.

Let’s give this a test and ship the winner of the 2 variants

[coral pawn]

Fkn Madlad👀

[pulsar steppe]

aye

[coral pawn]

Charon Ritual can summon multiple

[mint sluice]

does someone has a screenshot of the previous passives set ? I can remember the PE2 and that charon is new, but I can't remember the rest

[coral pawn]

PE2
Battalions 1
Grand Summoner of Hydrus
Hydrus

and a follower

[mint sluice]

ok so that's battalion that left the boat

[sinful sluice]

In dungeons: feels similar to the last iteration, minus the pet, so it's power is a bit decreased.
However it does have guidelight back

Despite having guidelight, Hydrus is still gaining souls per floor based on summons

Which is nice but counterintuitive hah

[violet drum]

great for bp endless.

[sinful sluice]

I think(?) summons are even weaker than before, so BP damage might be decreased

Could just be my impression though

HyPa endless though? 🤔

[mint sluice]

the auto casted are weaker (like arcarne troll has half the hp)

[somber parrot]

So summons 1&2 summons every floor if all summons die is not a bug in live sever now.

I think it fixed and returned.

[sinful sluice]

That was only removed from beta for a couple of days

[violet drum]

they're great for getting you out of a sticky situation for low AL content/weaker builds

[mint sluice]

can you get any multi summon in beta without an arcanic nearby ?

[coral pawn]

Phaeton

[coral pawn]

1. Live
2. Beta
   Tho i have 2 asc more on live

[sinful sluice]

Summon Dead

Asc doesn't matter for Hydrus and you know it ;p

[coral pawn]

SD is arcanist now and you know it ;p
Also i totally forgott asc don' matter😅

[somber parrot]

Summon dead is a purchased skill

[sinful sluice]

I... I did not ._.

Wow

[unborn timber]

It was a skill from T8 earlier, understandable

[sinful sluice]

Wait hold on

I just failed to SD

[mint sluice]

summon animal is gone too, arcanist is loaded now

[sinful sluice]

Does new hydrus have decreased summon chance

It does say "summoning is less effective" on the hydrus tooltip

[somber parrot]

Maybe it's like T8 Nekromancer, sometimes fail to summon.

[plain niche]

Wait what is live atm?

[sinful sluice]

Okay so comparing hydrus BP3 with HyPa, it's roughly 2.5m damage vs 500k damage

BP3 needing a board of 5 dragons, hypa needing a board of 3 random garbage summons

Comparing it to hydrus' BP because then it has no ascension quadratic scaling

Getting 5 dragons, especially after killing 10 summons, is time consuming, whereas killing 3 random things is not, even moreso when you get random garbage summons for free

[coral pawn]

Charon Ritual kicks in at the and of your and your opponents turns

[sinful sluice]

That looked like it was just visual. If it had happened at the end of cactus' turn, skellies would have been full hp

[somber parrot]

But it's different skeleton.

[gentle quarry]

Looks cool

[mint sluice]

I like the way it goes, but it's like summon dead / summon animal / summon VSS are required

[somber parrot]

Summon dead also needed before.

[gentle quarry]

2/3 of those are non event, you likely have both by the time you hit t9

[sinful sluice]

Oh huh

Summon's summons are not HyPable

Neither are they blood pactable?

I think that's new

[mint sluice]

not saying that's impossible, but that you don't have all included in the class to play it. You'll need to know of and find other external spells. If you're a regular player outside Discord talks, using summon dead doesn't sound that obvious.

[somber parrot]

They are blood pactable live and last beta. Maybe it's changed to the player's summons.
How about duel raid?

[mint sluice]

sounds more like a bug to me

[somber parrot]

Can only use what the player summon? So GSH+GSA or Mage+ GSA may be very bad.

[mint sluice]

Will it be ok in term of survivability with no battalion / no pet / no second chance / no warrior gear / weak summons (sometimes only 2) ?

[somber parrot]

Full weak summons do divert attention of enemies.

[mint sluice]

Ok but if you attack, 3 of them die so more than half the time you don't have 5 summons

[somber parrot]

Last beta don't have that too.
They boost some states this time, especially HP.
It's better now.

[sinful sluice]

The HP is not better than last beta iteration

[mint sluice]

It had battalion

[somber parrot]

Oh my fault

And the Summoner summons can't use now?

Seems reasonable

[pine topaz]

We got pe4 and guidelight back

So im happier amd charon thing is nice as well

[somber parrot]

It's really like a Nekromancer now, skeletons rise and die again and again. Interesting.

[pine topaz]

Makes me feel more powerful than i am and is great for hydrus pact amd charging passive

[sinful sluice]

Okay so, personal opinion regarding new Necromancer Hydrus, comparing to its previous beta iteration:

Ranked from ✅ 🟨 ❌

• It has more flavour than the Pet Hydrus ✅
• It fills the board faster and more passively with less powerful summons ✅
• Has PE4 and Elysian Guidelight back ✅
• Leaves Summon Pets homeless once again 🟨
• Is better at Endless but worse at horde 🟨 (I actually died in a non-boss non-anguish dungeon, despite 50ALs)
• Worse survivability, with the complete removal of batallions and pet ❌
• Worse damage output, with the removal of pets and worse summon health (blood pact) ❌
• Can no longer use Pacts with summons that come from other sources ❌
• • This both hurts co-op raiding with summoners, and makes self-replicating summons VERY undesirable, which is a shame since they were finally appealing due to hydrus pact's nature. Unless this is a bug, I'd vote to revert this change

Overall, it's a different, spicier flavour of summoner, but feels weaker than the previous iteration, and potentially even weaker than live hydrus.
Potential suggestions to aid the necromancer playstyle:

• HyPa 3, a 1-turn spell that sacrifices every summon to deal damage (same damage per dead summon as HyPa 2, its sole existence is to sacrifice more summons at a time, should a person be summoning more than 3 per turn)
• A pact that deals damage regardless of summons on the field, and had a higher chance of proccing Charon Ritual (to use when the field is empty, dealing damage, and semi-reliably filling the board, despite being less reliable than simply casting a summon spell)

Personally I prefer the previous iteration, as I see more use cases for it than this one.
Current one has more flavour but less use

Could be wrong though, and that is just my opinion.

[pine topaz]

If there were a way to mix the two i feel like we'd probably have a perfect hydrus but thats unlikely to happen

[coral pawn]

That won't happen 💯

[sinful sluice]

Player-focused Power and Necromancy Power are two fairly distinct identities

Maybe someday with a third celestial class there will be a chance for both to coexist, but for now, it's likely one or the other

[pine topaz]

I do think a real quick fix to make it a lot better is to up the damage from hpact

[mint sluice]

would this + pet be really to OP ? imo it's not but I'm not optimized in GS strats

[plain niche]

It would

[sinful sluice]

Pet comes in, guidelight goes out

You can't have both, period

[somber parrot]

Blood pact still can't trigger weapon additional effects. So this is official settings.

[sinful sluice]

[pine topaz]

But having a petrifyimg bp would be a little too good

[sinful sluice]

[leaden gust]

Mirror requests up for folks to test properly: https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1237096853405831189

[pulsar steppe]

I'm not incredibly fond of mixing this + followers as a result of the conversations here. that would be a pretty muddy identity imo

To me, it's either we lean into the necro thing, or lean into the pet thing

[leaden gust]

I'll be sleeping for a couple of hours (sorry!) and pump out the mirrors when I wake

[plain niche]

Hypa has so much potential for gsh and for Keith aswell

[sinful sluice]

Good luck and Good night

[pine topaz]

If anything i prefer the nekro thing more as feel more unique than the pet

[sinful sluice]

Can we have confirmation if the lack of pact interactability with other summon sources is Intentional or a Bug?

[somber parrot]

I like nekro more.

[pulsar steppe]

intentional

[sinful sluice]

I see. Personally, that's a shame, but I can see why that decision would be made

[pulsar steppe]

you're seeing better results at endless?

[sinful sluice]

That's the one thing I haven't personally tested yet - it's extrapolated from the fact that it has guidelight again. There's no reason Shane's live blood pact build wouldn't work with the beta version of hydrus

[pine topaz]

Haven't tested yet as will wait to see if i can try a mirror. But can probably safety say it will be a massive bonus as pe4 and guidelight are good but the nekro thing will allow for passive extra summoning so we can focus on bping the enemy

[sinful sluice]

though then again, if he relied on Beithir's autosummons, then it might actually be quite a bit worse than before

I am by no means an expert in hydrus endless, so I'll leave that to the ones that know better

[somber parrot]

I use Beithir copy, so it's useless.

[pine topaz]

It will allow us to get to floor 200 faster especially if your a new hydrus

[sinful sluice]

It's worse than live hydrus at it though

[sinful sluice]

Oh, to make it clear, I meant better than the pet version - not better than live. I heavily doubt it's better than live
(But again, that's the one thing i haven't tested)

[plain niche]

but isnt that basicly a buff to shanes bc autosummon can proc chunkier summons than 150k

[somber parrot]

Other summons may be better for endless, but you need to take good care of them.

I'll take that.

[pine topaz]

Not really if you're purely doing hydrus no snapshotting to auriga this is a massive improvement

[coral pawn]

Hydrus Pact missing still kills of the summons, seems a bit harsh. I suggest summons stay alive upon misses.

[pulsar steppe]

ok, excellent

[pine topaz]

Only problem is we may need a new skill slot to accommodate for the extra summon thats needed

[sinful sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/excellent-happy-mr-burns-simpsons-satisfied-gif-16091269

[pulsar steppe]

isn't this in parity with spiked shield consuming ward, etc?

[sinful sluice]

Huh, never really struggled with skill slots on summoners

[pulsar steppe]

generally resources are always spent on misses in orna

[sinful sluice]

I do agree with this. Blood pact still consumes health, spells still consume mana

The evillest one is definitely Life Pact Doublecast costing double health but not healing double though.

[mint sluice]

it's easier (and automatic) to regenerate your ward, while summoning 3 goons take some investment

[sinful sluice]

It's actually easy and automatic to summon 3 goons with the new passive

especially with some future gear that boosts that passive

[coral pawn]

Charon Ritual.... doesn't seem to summon multiple anymore?

[pine topaz]

Would chained shield do well in horde?

[sinful sluice]

(in a similar way that ward regen is boosted by augments)

[mint sluice]

if you can get anything close to 100% maybe, but in current sandbox spiked shield is as good as not costing ward so killing 3 summons is more impactful

[somber parrot]

Ward boost by ALs, summons hp not boost by ALs. Just different.

[pine topaz]

Would ascended summons on hydrus be too good? With all the summon debuffing a feel like it wouldn't be too excessive now

[sinful sluice]

Quadratic scaling on both BP and SS is within NF's sight for adjustments. Comparing other sources of damage to them isn't productive

[sinful sluice]

Ascended summons are out of the question both in terms of power and in terms of flavour

If the point is to give a necromancer, quantity over quality feeling, buffing the summons feels counterproductive

[coral pawn]

Can anyone confirm?
Also the chances feel like 25%ish?
Which felt great when it was able to summon multiple but a bit low if it's only able to summon one.

[sinful sluice]

Phone ran out of battery so my testing is taking a bit of a break heh

[plain niche]

auto summon gear in the future that works with keith aswell?

[sinful sluice]

at 25% with no multiple summons, that's one HyPa per 12 turns, which is a bit of a yike

[pine topaz]

Thats not good especially with the meh damage

[plain niche]

i think hypa worked better with onryo follower tbh

[sinful sluice]

Right, that's the one piece of feedback I forgot to mention in my wall of text

this new passive is less efficient than a pet at autosummoning

and it comes with the downsides of not having a pet attached to it

plus even weaker summons and no batallions

[pine topaz]

Vss as a charon ritual summon would be good as does give the def res down for hypact

[coral pawn]

I'd say as the kinks of the previous version things are adjustable if needed.

[sinful sluice]

Of course of course

I don't mean to say "this is bad, revert pls"

just saying that in terms of power, this is probably an overall downgrade with the current numbers 👍

[coral pawn]

I agree that atm it's less powerful than the follower summoner but i've to admit that it has a certain unique feel to it.

[sinful sluice]

That it does

[plain niche]

Beoa is funny with hypact bc onryo reloads My gun

[pine topaz]

Upgrade with idea and endless downgrade in power so with some tweaks and extra feedback should be a lot closer to a great hydrus

[somber parrot]

Any buff?

[pine topaz]

A lot he's fully buffed

[sinful sluice]

t.mag+++
mag+
mag++
zerk 2 and 3
Snotra

[plain niche]

oh yea basic mag ups+ snotra+ 2x zerk + tmag+++

[somber parrot]

lol, so much

[plain niche]

well with gsh i did similar dmg

[somber parrot]

That's low

[plain niche]

it is low bc hypa does not scale much

[coral pawn]

Not anymore since you have no ward upkeep w/o a follower.

[coral pawn]

Plus we miss out on certain gear options again like Aaru Robe

[plain niche]

Hydrus vs beoa

[pine topaz]

At that point you know something's wrong if beo.is nearly beating hydrus at its own game

[mint sluice]

just a monday for beo

[somber parrot]

What about beoH?

[plain niche]

nah keith just got a new toy

[plain niche]

Lmao hydrus beats gsh at pacts

[somber parrot]

lol. With higher mag, indeed.

[mint sluice]

"I am you, but better" -Beowulf to literally every other class

[plain niche]

but imo hypa needs dmg buff

i like the idea that it is basicly only summoner spell that actually works with other classes without trolling

[past jolt]

this is definetly a step in the direction i wanted gsh to take personally and i love it

it just needs a couple of buffs imo to feel better, hydrus pact damage being the main part, and maybe providing some extra defences

ideally id like an semi-aoe pact too, so horde is more enjoyable cause as is, its not possible again due to the lack of pet

maybe the semi-aoe pact could cost your own life, simmilar to life pact, so not all pacts require your summons to function, maybe it could even require souls from your passive, just throwing ideas but i really think it would be much appreciated

[wispy phoenix]

Hmm this iteration feels pretty great

not gonna lie, in the current state I think I still prefer the pet version. This iteration could have potential but it needs to be developed a bit further I think. The autosummon passive feels a little underwhelming ngl

I think my preferred version would have pet + autosummon passive but without guidelight, don't think thats on the table tho

[past jolt]

autosummon way cooler that getting a pet imo, just need more power cause yeah pets are really op

[safe wyvern]

If we have a more chance to summon summons with charon we could erase the elisian passive, sometimes it takes almost 10 turns to summon something, but the way it is right now it is kinda nice, get your most 3 hp summons and keep pacting and when they have low hp, finish them, can we have charon pact HP priority on HyPa? Sacrifice 3 of your lowerest hp summon?

[past jolt]

another suggestion i just thought of is maybe, the autosummon has an increased chance depending on how much turns your summons take to summon

so for example, summon dead will have a really high proc chance every since its a 1 turn cast, but ancient dragon will have a low one

[safe wyvern]

If we have a high all around we could sacrifice them after we drained their blood with blood pact 🧛

Or maybe having the properties of the summon spell, at least I never got more than 1 skelly from the passive

And for ultima there 3 summons with weakness inducing skills so it is still helpful for them too

[wispy phoenix]

wtfff why was it changed that you cant use pacts on other summons anymore

[safe wyvern]

On multiplayer?

[wispy phoenix]

I guess that means beithir duo strat is dead?

I havent tried in duo yet, but the fact that I can't use blood pact on scarecrow-summoned scarecrows seems to suggest it's not possible anymore with other player summons either

[lucid trellis]

But thats not good, is jt ? Because coop play is such a cool thing.

And live means on beta servers or ?

[coral pawn]

Yes and yes

[wispy phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-dies-gif-21956120

[gentle quarry]

Summoner Hydrus with the 100% stat scaling passive - lol

[coral pawn]

Fun fact the scarecrow replica is stronger than the starter of GSH.
13kHP is the starter.

[safe wyvern]

With the BP/HyPa is a nice way to play, we need a way to get mp with amity of a gem, but its well duable its just kinda sad BP2 is stronger then HyPa when you dispose of summons for more

[wispy phoenix]

iirc scarecrow has +100% summon stats built in

[past jolt]

yeah charon ritual should 100% summon multiple and pacts should 100% work with duplicated summons though lol

[safe wyvern]

in the newupdate we could have 3 main core setup for summons being AD/Hydra/Anubis for BP/Hypa, AD/Anubis/Glashtyn for Ultima and SD, Spooky ghost/Scary Skelly and summon dead of Phaethon for HyPa spam if we have the summon spell and not the single summon only

[past jolt]

gameplay wise the pet variant is far stronger overall, nekro variant has more potential and is cooler thematically

[rocky acorn]

This autosummon... Bad...
I like to control on what summons are out...
Especially if I want to set up a big bp.

[lyric flicker]

ok someone catch me up
is gsh getting a pet or guidelight

also i need an arcanist for the ability to grab all the summoner skills

[past jolt]

one of them, not both, and community is torn between the two

[lyric flicker]

so the beta has both rn then?

[past jolt]

the beta currently has the guidelight version, which has a passive where you randomly use your summon spells, but you dont have a follower

[lyric flicker]

what if it gets both but its something like after so many floors/ turns summons start to decay. lose hp and stats til the die from that something that allows gsh to be capable of running endless but also limits thier power when the reach a specific point or requires the player to resummon at that point

[mint sluice]

note that the update didn't remove followers from those who already had one equiped

[lyric flicker]

no it has guidelight and charon
also ty orion cuz i was slightly confused when i had one on still

[brisk surge]

Very happy with necro feel

[lyric flicker]

wym by necro

[brisk surge]

Feels like a necromancer ish

[lyric flicker]

uh like with the passive summoning

[brisk surge]

Yuh

Discarding summons with by using life force and resummoning

Also speedier in general, not as strong as follower version though

[lyric flicker]

id maybe like to see it something we can guarnetee will be. like will always be x summon or x of non first summons

like guarnetee its 3rd sloted summon or maybe make it like 75% hp of the normal summs stuff so that you can still also use blood pact

[brisk surge]

At least this version feels like it has a bit more identity

[lyric flicker]

yah 100% i didnt like the idea of pet because then its just another class that plays one of like 5 pets and 1 of 3 summons

[brisk surge]

Hydrus pact might need a buff, but I like it

[lyric flicker]

so is hydrus pact supose to be the skill that rivals ultima/ the summoner equal

[brisk surge]

Odie said Its to be compared to ultima I think?

Not rivals, you can't really rival ultima unfortunately, with all the crit and ele weaknesses

[pine topaz]

Yeah even with my real gear this ain't good at all

[somber parrot]

Can you sacrifice any small beithir now?

[coral pawn]

No looks like pre summoned Beithirs with summon stats.
I'd rather test and compare it with summons summoned by GSH.

[somber parrot]

I can't build or set original town in beta now.

[wispy phoenix]

hydrus pact is not meant for endless

[rocky acorn]

The follower version looks so flexible and interesting...
This autosummon just force you to just us HyPa. Which imo is underwhelming.

As it is now... It feels like an Alibaba version of an hydrus that trys to look cool and edgy....

[somber parrot]

Player can't sacrifice summon's summon. They just waste you summon seat.

Can't even do anything about it.

[past jolt]

yeah this hydrus is cooler thematically but so much weaker, we need some buffs to make it on par with the power a pet gives lol

[somber parrot]

Even GS or GSA can't either. Not s bug?

[faint remnant]

What if instead of auto-summoning you had a chance to summon a shade of whatever you killed with a pact?

Rewards the suicide play and let's you theoretically trade weaker summons for a stronger shade?

[pine topaz]

I know it was just the best way to set up for the best possible damage with summons and passive

Also theres currently a bug which charges the hydrus pact off summon damage so you can charge it by blood pacting

[coral pawn]

#1219672026160042118 message
No GS variant can interact with others summons now

[pine topaz]

Version with only using gsh autosummons no buffs

Doesn't show but slightly higher damage than bp1 but a lot lower than bp2

The move here in hydrus only runs is as follows for me. Bp 1 for floors 1-200 but when summon hp is very low hp instead as damage seems the samish compared to bp where the damage is slightly diminuished

[somber parrot]

GS GSH

First one is GS

BeoH

[somber parrot]

Rhada(X Chraon(X

[mint sluice]

how many turns to not fail the summon tho ?

[somber parrot]

Around 50% ?

Just try for the Keith guys.

[mint sluice]

he'd probably use onryo, but if the time to get the 3 summons is long I don't see it has unbalanced

[somber parrot]

GSH has around 80% success summon rate

[somber parrot]

GSA. It's intentional too?

[mint sluice]

I tried summon dead on deity , it's like 20%. but the summons are so weak they die to the cactus arrowstorm
Also it seems like using summon dead on deity almost never summon multiple skeletons. I think the 20% is applied to every chances of summons, not just the spell in itself, so you were really lucky to get 3.

[somber parrot]

GS

So all summon's summon is hardly nerf.

[wispy phoenix]

it means you can't use the blood pact duo strat anymore with gsa + gsh

[somber parrot]

Yes. Can't even kill the summon

[mint sluice]

I don't understand this change honestly. Very odd.

[wispy phoenix]

for me at least that's a really big nerf because I used to do that a lot for mirroring

I don't understand the point of that change tbh. What was it meant to do? Even for gsh it wouldve been nice to be able to use scarecrow summons for HyPa

[mint sluice]

I could understand a change where you can't use summons that come from an other player (to avoid some sort of cheese strat), but sub summons not being usable just break many summons

[somber parrot]

Heretic can't use GSA summons to BP too.

[somber parrot]

Agree. The summons from your summons still from you.

(Your interest is also your deposit)

[short aspen]

Killing gsa- gsh or mage bp duos is a bit weird.

It's like not letting beoA quetzalcoatl blights work for 2nd player ultima...
Seems a bit unfair

[lyric flicker]

No this is a lot different. Using another players summons should never have been allowed. There's a difference between debuffs and another players stats

You can use another players summons to give debuffs

That would be the equivalent to taking other players debuffs away.

[safe wyvern]

The only problem with this is that even with the cheese of using summon power from another class... but duo summon at at the same time since we have a 6 slot limit

[lyric flicker]

Heh?

[safe wyvern]

It should compensate for the lack of slots to summon, 2 summoners with PE IV already used 6 slots and you have 2 summons instead of 5 alone

[lyric flicker]

Right but the cheese was heretics

They'd put on pact gear with incredibly high magic and 1 shot any raid with another players summons

[safe wyvern]

Welp didnt think on them xD its hard to not have summoner enjoyers with my group

[lyric flicker]

Lol yah if we gave it a -% effectiveness for non summoners then it wouldn't be an issue

[safe wyvern]

In endless I checked something strange, Charon and PE4 conflicts

If charon summons something and your field is empty before the floor PE4 wont activate

[lyric flicker]

Also you have the issue of gsh coming in with 0 summons and gsa coming in with full stat gear and allowing the gsh to get 4 gsa strength summons. While using max pact damage

[wispy phoenix]

why is that a problem? Its a form of synergy that can only be pulled of in duo

[lyric flicker]

This is intended I think to not allow grand summoners the ability to take advantage of the pe4 (starter summons) as a reliable way to do endless

[lyric flicker]

An issue because its not how hydrus was intended to be used along with quad scaling blood pacts

[safe wyvern]

The problem as never PEIV, it was elisian guidelight

[wispy phoenix]

thats a moot point when you consider it's still possible to have quad scaling on hydrus in endless because we have guidelight back

[lyric flicker]

Yes and no. You didn't have to stop to heal summons via this. And guidelight is there hense why charon stoped that

[mint sluice]

I think the idea is to prevent a high mag class to abuse pacts like ward skills are worst on non gilga. If it's really that, maybe the solution could be similar to SS and just reduce pact damage on no GS/GSH.

[safe wyvern]

PeIV is 2 reliable summons for HyPa, if the charon procs you have a 100% HyPa charge, Im saying if you kill all your summons and charon proced on the next floor

[lyric flicker]

I think the majority of the player base has accepted that reworking a class just because of 1 game play area isn't on

[lyric flicker]

Yah and again it's because you have access to guidelight. More than likely a left like that to hinder gsh from doing bigger things than quick cast Ultima endless.

[safe wyvern]

You are already killing all your summons, why it would be something problematic if PEIV procs with Charon?

[wispy phoenix]

when you think about it? How many duo builds are there that really synergize with each other well? I can think of blight pet stasis + full dmg ultima, but other than that? The beithir duo strat was one of the few builds in the game that had this kind of duo synergy

[lyric flicker]

Cuz it makes the bp 2 spam for orns able to go further/faster that's why

[mint sluice]

also tbh, this duo strat doesn't require 2 players, only 2 characters iykwim

[lyric flicker]

More than likely because nf didn't intend for players to use starts like this but rather work together as both chars do damage

[wispy phoenix]

so they want there to be less possible strategies?

[lyric flicker]

Yah that's my point it's a way to cheese getting raids done you can kill off the alt right after getting all the summons down and get max rewards without having to think

[safe wyvern]

IF you wanna BP2 Spam just use lifepact to heal them all instead of using the PE4 passive to do it 🤷 it is way more effective since you can now still used GSA summon on endless, Im already killing summons which is counterintuitive

[lyric flicker]

They want players to work together instead of 1 player does the work while the other cheese a way through

[wispy phoenix]

where did they say that? Or are you just making this up

[lyric flicker]

The bp2 strat utilizing pe4 was a quick easy 0 thought process build you hit 1 button til you die quick orns

[lyric flicker]

Not sure it's been said directly but I'm it's been brought up by other players when discussing party play dungeons

[safe wyvern]

And it is still possible.... and what you said only affects if you charon proced, then you just use HyPa and get rid of it or use summon dead + HyPa, and if charon can proc any turn, if you dont use HyPa is Kinda Difficult to kill All your Summon with just BP2

[lyric flicker]

Also this process is best done with gsa summons at that point it's better and easier to get a lot deeper and hense the quad bp scaling. But I'd your only looking to do like 100-200 floor endless bp2 pe4 was just as fast if not faster than quick cast Ultima

[lyric flicker]

So yes part of the strat was using your highest 2 summons hp and keep going if one survived you normally died once you get to later floors. But normally speaking it's 10% of summon hp so should die about the same time unless they get hit by something.

[safe wyvern]

Let me explain better the interraction:
Floor 2
You have 3 summons, and use HyPa, the enemy iskilled
Floor 3
You can have 2 summons with PEIV or Charon proced and you have 1 summon

[lyric flicker]

Yes I'm aware

[safe wyvern]

The BP2 spam you mentioned, Charon needs to not proc for 10 turns to be true

[lyric flicker]

And It is more than likely intentional to hinder the cheese you can do that's stronger than quick cast Ultima spam

[wispy phoenix]

mate you are contradicting yourself a lot lol

[lyric flicker]

No im not

If charons procs it gives you a bigger chance to die because your damage is cut by a lot. Bp2 spam using pe4 was faster and stronger for quick endless and you don't need to invest gear to it

You can do full orn gear and not need celestial staff to get further using 1 button than you can using a celestial staff quick cast Ultima build for endless

[wispy phoenix]

its not better than qc ultima without a celestial weapon. Without eos arms bp is going to be worse than a critting ultima still

[lyric flicker]

Not when it comes to running endless with minimal effort.

[safe wyvern]

If you want minimal effort use GSA + AD and spam shield

[lyric flicker]

It's better and faster to get 100 floors via pe4 because the majority of your damage is from the stats of your summons. And can be done prior to 245

[safe wyvern]

So Why you cant have PEIV and Charon proc AFTER YOU KILLED ALL YOUR SUMMONS?

[lyric flicker]

Nah because if your using gsa your needing to buff your summons and continue spamming that. Not only that but you also need to sacrifice a orn weapon for this

[lyric flicker]

Because it was a faster and larger damage endless for quick orns

[safe wyvern]

Minimal effort you dont need to

[lyric flicker]

Minimal effort is pushing 1 button post buffing self

[safe wyvern]

Summon 5 AD, buff self, spam shield

[lyric flicker]

Yah that's 5 summons

[safe wyvern]

Omega rift then change to full orn

If you use all your gear to summon power you can like get a 1/3 extra HP on AD

[lyric flicker]

Instead of mimics wyvern speed 2 snotra and bp2

[wispy phoenix]

not gonna lie, I think for the fast spam endless strat the pet version of gsh might have been better. Because right now, pact endless still doesnt seem to work well because charon and pe4 conflict with each other. That means you'd probably want to use qc ultima instead. However with the pet version of the class you would have the ability to run dc pets which means more dex + 2x damage to make your build work. The only added value of guidelight for qc ultima is more meatshields

[winter chasm]

so we went from "let's rework GSH to add playability to the class" to MASSIVE NERF TO THE MAIN GS STRATEGY IN RAIDS

[somber parrot]

Three GS

[lyric flicker]

It would have been for that. Personally I was against pets the entire time because it's not a summoner thing. However they needed to nerf the easiblilty of endless because it's a large complaint. Personally I don't want a rework I'm happy where it is

[winter chasm]

pets get buffed almost every patch / event, everyone has access to them except GS, solution: nerf GS raids. Is this a joke? everyone went from 1.2x damage multiplier (bulwark) to 2x with ultima, we lose our main fast raiding chance in duo?

[safe wyvern]

The endless stuff is still there right now my friend

[somber parrot]

And GSA+Mage, but Mage can duel with Ymir Amphiptere Beo. Even faster.

[lyric flicker]

Also no we went from gsh not being worth in raids to gsh having cool features to use through out raids. The biggest thing that's been said is hypa needs a damage buff to match Ultima. But other than that it's decent.

[safe wyvern]

You can do the GSA setup and swith to GSH in beta now and im against it too

[winter chasm]

lol at decent the only thing that matters is how long it takes to kill the raid, we have to kill hundreds per month , sometimes thousands, outside pure casuals, anyone actually playing the game a lot will always do whatever is fastest, anything that isn't faster than the already available alternatives is purely unplayable for any committed player

[wispy phoenix]

jsyk, some people are playing this game to have fun. The main goal of this rework I think is to make the class have a good identity and make it fun to play, not just as OP as possible

[lyric flicker]

I'm aware I have no issue with that strat. Don't even use it myself actually cuz I haven't taken the time to figure out the class not gotten pact gear. I personally don't think the class needs updated but rather some new skills. But for the sake of the rework that I'ma have to like reguardless I'm playing devil's advocate and understanding other stuff

[winter chasm]

pie they are nerfing GS raiding to the ground lol, i would rather GSH isn't a class than this

[lyric flicker]

Also most players don't play the game with gs so the fastest method would be gilga and heretic and realmshifter

[wispy phoenix]

tbh I have no idea why they changed pacts not working on other summons, that doesnt even seem related to this gsh rework

[winter chasm]

in HoA GS is by far the most used class

[somber parrot]

Unexpected disaster for other 2 GS.

[lyric flicker]

Good thing this is a orna server instead of a HOA server

[winter chasm]

this is a rework intended for orna AND hoa, and hoa players are allowed to vote on it as well, what do you mean?

and most of all why nerf GS when all the new content literally helped all other classes more than us already, being going on since bestial bonds

[lyric flicker]

That they are both separate games with similar origins this server here is orna and the majority of it's player base played heretic til towers got released

[somber parrot]

I don't think they know the vote
Their maincord is different.

[winter chasm]

it's incredile GS is getting nerfed, just incredible

[safe wyvern]

You needed to see the first iteration of the rework

[winter chasm]

we can't BP duo raid lol, what else do i need to see? that's how i killed the last like 4k raids

[lyric flicker]

This isn't a nerf for gs it's a rework for gsh and giving it new abilities and other strats then using gsa for summon damage build and gs for ultima spam and out classing gsh with bp after so many als

[safe wyvern]

PE4, no guidelight, a passive to make the first summon instant cast, that one was way worse

[winter chasm]

eliminating bp duo raid is a monstruois nerf, huge nerf, why do you lie about it

[wispy phoenix]

the duo strat not working anymore is definitely a nerf to duo raiding tho, just saying

[lyric flicker]

Because it's not a strat that should have been used

[winter chasm]

and btw if you don't play gs why are you commenting on this, unclear even why you should be allowed a vote not playing the class

[wispy phoenix]

according to whom? It worked this way since pacts were pretty much introduced, why change it so randomly?

[lyric flicker]

I don't use gsh I play gsa and gs along with gilga and beo and deity

I have an account specifically for gs and gsa and an account that's 2 years older and uses other classes to figure out cool strats.

[winter chasm]

non summoner classes duo can kill a morri in 4-5 turns at good gear/al

[lyric flicker]

Because gsh was never intended for gsa summons nor heretic nor beo nor any class that's not gsa.

[winter chasm]

now GS can't duo at all it's like by far the worst duo class, in all it's variants, like completly unplayable

[lyric flicker]

A good summoner + any other class can do the same have you seen the guy named Pat on the legends server with 100 als using Ultima 2 and damage limiting off 1 button push

[winter chasm]

you could summon as GS-benefactor since the day benefactor come out and a magic user cast bp with those summons since day 1

[unborn timber]

the same Pat that is gilga now?

[winter chasm]

i am AL 130 in GS

[wispy phoenix]

I dont get whats wrong with the idea of 2 summoners working together to slay a raid together, both doing the things that they are best at (summoning big summons and casting strong pacts)

[solid oracle]

It's like saying heretic ultima + beo quetz casting blights shouldn't be a thing

[safe wyvern]

We should have a % buff based on the amount of summons you can have in the battle, since synergies is not allowed, we could get a buff to summon HP
1 summoner 100%
2 summoner 250%
3 summoner 500%
It should keep ar least BP intact this way 🤷
And it is still a nerf but at with at least 2 can BP without the nerf of having less summons slots

[winter chasm]

i think people don't realize in endgame you need to clear so much content for so little gain, strategies that they think are "overpowered" actually aren't: when you need to kill 600 a morri to overcome A SINGLE MAT BLOCK, even if you were able to one click them that wouldn't be overpowered

[lyric flicker]

And he did that in a kingdom raid and recorded the whole thing. And yah it was an unintended use for that. They only intended for grand summoners to use pacts and further more only intended gsa to use gsa summons and gsh use pact damage with nerfed summons along with gs being able to do both. Fact of the mater is it's a strat that shouldn't be doable. And when we talk about other classes using pets for debuffs it's a different story a heretic using Ultima and another character debuffing the raid. It's one thing for you to be debuffing as any character can debuff a character. It's another to give them your stats. Hense why they are trying to remove it

[winter chasm]

in kingdom raid you can't duo, do you even play this game?

[safe wyvern]

I dont play a lot and I understand the pain to have to farm 6k+ Cursed Ortanite in the same month, i cant imagine in AL100+

[unborn timber]

This is what I call Zipper's Syndrome. You see a single oneshot, but not the thousands of tries that required RNG to align in a specific way

[wispy phoenix]

btw, you're never going to do that reliably as gs. GS ultima is only that strong if you get weakness proc, which you rarely get since he ancient dragon blight proc is so low. Super lucky runs like that are not the baseline

[lyric flicker]

So let's compare apples to apples and oranges oranges another player debuffing the enemy in a raid is something you can do without another person. You can not give someone your magic power or your attention power via stats. You can't make someone else's pet act more or less. So instead of saying not letting another summoner use my summons is equal to not letting another player debuff a raid with a pet let's talk about the ability to debuff and if it can be done solo or not. And would you look at that any solo player with a pet can give blight debuff. Any player can not give a player base magic and attack.

[winter chasm]

having active blight is 2.4x multiplier for ultima: immense advantage. You are supposed to either have a buffing pet or a blight pet in raid, when solo. In duo, you get the buffing pet, your dam cap break as hera ara (or amity, or celestial augment), the other guy gives you 2.4x multiplier

[lyric flicker]

Also it's not reliable but it's doable funny part is right before he posted that I posted a vid of me damage capping with Ultima 1 with 17 als

[winter chasm]

overcoming the necessity to pick EITHER blight OR pet buffs

[wispy phoenix]

the thing is, the person not using the blight pet gets to use another pet instead, like phoenix or aaru robe TMM, so in practice it's much more effective when duoing

[winter chasm]

now pet buff is 2x to ultima (t+++mag) because of huge buff to pets from Ptah robe (a GS nerf obviously, as GS is the only class that can't benefit from it), and the solution is nerf duo blood pact?

[lyric flicker]

Lol most the dragons can buff you via wyvern speed. Another thing is any buff a pet can apply the player themselves can apply. Via gear or skills

[solid oracle]

Exactly, one summoner giving you BP batteries to use is the same as another player giving you blights to exploit

[winter chasm]

blues you have no idea about how this game is played at optimal levels sorry, pet buff is the pet casting mag++ then t+++mag in 2 turns, guaranteed

[lyric flicker]

No it's not

[solid oracle]

Comparing wyvern speed to 1turn dc

[winter chasm]

100% of endgamers play with the mightiest mimic + ptah robe

[lyric flicker]

You cannot compare the 2 because it's not recreateable in a solo environment

[unborn timber]

excuse me what

[wispy phoenix]

its also not possible to recreate blight pet + aaru robe tmm solo

[lyric flicker]

You don't need tmm for the robe. Nor do you need the robe for t.mag 3

[winter chasm]

you need for GUARANTEED mag++, t+++mag turn 2, one shot turn 3 with partner blight

[lyric flicker]

Hell there's a consumable for t.mag.3 and a consumable for mag 2

[winter chasm]

you have snotra (cast yourself), mag++, t+++mag, DC (one turn cast yourself) , x2.4 blight which is impossible solo by turn 3 when you cast one turn ultima

[safe wyvern]

Good luck having enough from event to event to farm t.mag3 pots

[unborn timber]

And how exactly are you going to use consumable while your Ultima 2 is charging?

[lyric flicker]

And a consumable for zerk 2. The only buff you can't do yourself via consumable is zerk one

[winter chasm]

guaranteed, every raid, hundreds of times per day, turn 3 ultima for gabazillion damage

[mighty garden]

Took me hundreds of attempts, lol

[lyric flicker]

You can lugus or maji doesn't require a pot

[winter chasm]

you have to replicate that 500 times, fast, do you realize that's the game? not a single raid buffing for 6 turns lol

[lyric flicker]

Yah ik I was mad at you because you stole my spotlight of being al17 and damage capping Ultima 2 with meh gear on and I did that 3 months into being t10 at lvl 248 or so

[solid oracle]

Self casting mag 3 and dc and charging ulti 2 hoping blight stays on, obviously do it in 3 turns

[lyric flicker]

Do you realize that the game is a play your way that you enjoy not a kill every single thing in the game within .05 seconds

[winter chasm]

anyway all classes except GS got a huge buff, duo especially, so let's nerf BP DUO, very reasonable

[unborn timber]

Again, comparing a 3% (or 6% with two) and a three-turn charge spell vs a setup that throws a Ultima 3 on a third turn guaranteed

[safe wyvern]

do you have a timespam to remember messages here? Mimic and do it it in 2 turns and another person give blight... where the fuck is your logic in using and unreliable stuff to have it of use 3 turns in a 2 turn setup?

[solid oracle]

Even more reason to not remove a way of playing the game

[winter chasm]

yes and i enjoy killing BP duo instead of having to use ultima like everyone else, why do you want to nerf me? i don't want to nerf you, can you leave the strategy i use alone instead of claiming it wasn't intended even if it was in the game since day 1?

i mean at the end i would just hoc, it's only 500k shards anyway, but why kill a class completly at end game, why the hate, especially the only class that did NOT get buffs in the last months

[safe wyvern]

Blood pact should have a SS tag on it, 10% of summon HP used as base damage for BP to non Summoner and problem solved

[wispy phoenix]

kaine reading this: wtf

[winter chasm]

no BP DUO means 100% of endgame raids being ultima raid instead of 70-80%

[solid oracle]

This makes more sense to me than killing of the playstyle completely

[lyric flicker]

Look who's getting angry I'd suggest taking a step back before you get yourself introuble

[coral pawn]

Ab so lutely not no.
I see that the lack of pacts to 'summons from other sources' interaction is a major concern to us and i'll make 110% sure it's heard.
Furthermore it shifts away attention from the NekroGSH intsel which is very unfortunate

[leaden gust]

Not necessary at all.
Let's be kinder to each other please 😉

[safe wyvern]

Im not angry, its just kinda counterproductive to repeat stuff and you use an invalid argument

[winter chasm]

dangy can you confirm BP being able to use other summons until now was an intended game mode?

[lyric flicker]

You more than likely use an alt for this process this is a strat that cannot be recreated solo.

[winter chasm]

i don't alt, i have partners in kingdom, far better than alt as they have AL as well

[lyric flicker]

They are making hydrus pact for a reason

[leaden gust]

I cannot, no. Odie has made quite a few updates for this patch. I do believe a change in that regard was intended. Whether it is a bug fix or a change, I do not know.

[lyric flicker]

So there's other sources and other players. A slight difference between the W

[winter chasm]

no i mean up until this event dangy, it wasn't a bug right?

[solid oracle]

Doesn't really shift too much, hypa gets also affected by it since you can't kill off summon's summon making summons like scarecrow useless

[leaden gust]

I do know that we should be kind to each other or the mods and I can use timeouts etc for those concerned. Don't bite at each other, never needed!

[winter chasm]

it was intended till today that i could use other ppl summon to BP

[leaden gust]

#1219672026160042118 message

That'd be my answer 🙂

[safe wyvern]

If im not mistaken, since the first iteration of the rework it was this way right? I think I saw someone said it about Scarecrow summons in the beggining

[coral pawn]

Other sources as in 'not summoned by yourself' includes other players.

[lyric flicker]

Thank you so very much

[coral pawn]

For we got plenty of feedback on the topic. Thank you for that.
I'll set smth up make sure everything is getting attention👍

[winter chasm]

kaine think about it: if they nerf BP duo that way, AT LEAST give us pet, not giving us pet whilke nerfing bp duo is overall an incredible nerf to GS to the point all endgamers have to HOC because raiding becomes the worst in the game by a large margin

[lyric flicker]

But is an unintended source. When Odie gets around to reading this we will hear more on what Intended sources and unintended sources are until then we can take a step back and enjoy our day rather than spending near 40 mins arguing about how a class is/was prior to update and why this is gonna be bad or good

[wispy phoenix]

ngl, I don't see the point of that change (or bug fix?). For the nekro gsh it would have been nice if scarecrow summons worked for HyPa, and the change kills the BP duo strat. What does it solve then?

[winter chasm]

blues i am farming towers right now while we discuss

[coral pawn]

I'm pretty sure i know how much worth the previous interaction had for us. Thanks for the reminder🙂

[lyric flicker]

Pie I believe the intended nerf was for using other player summons but in the coding it's all coded together and would take them a few hrs to separate that coding.

[safe wyvern]

Having Elisian vs Having a pet with this much summon volume, having a pet is way better

[coral pawn]

And i want to make sure the man can make smth out of this discussion.

I don't know if continuing with it is benefitial.
It may make a read through very tedious.

---

So like i said.
We have the feedback.
We'll make it heard.
Thank you.
🙂

[leaden gust]

The ORN are summarising well, and keeping things tight.
Not super necessary to continue on a point that has already been raised to them, the studio will hear about it 🙂
For now, I might increase the slowmode on this channel. It's getting harder and harder to track

[lyric flicker]

Sorry about that dangy

[winter chasm]

dangy given these changes will apply to HoA as well, and i have the feeling many players in HoA have no idea about this incoming stuff, can we have this discussion on HoA maincord as well?

[leaden gust]

You're always welcome to open discussion threads, of course. That's why the section exists

[lyric flicker]

Dangy could you check your message request as I have a question not regarding this topic nor any gameplay stuff

[leaden gust]

I'll check my DMs tomorrow morning during my normal work hours 🙂
It's 9pm for me currently, will be shutting down my work day for now

[coral pawn]

NekroGSH Summary

Post Nekro GSH update

Overall Feedback

Many ppl welcome the Nekro flavour despite aknowledging that it's way less powerful than the pet GSH. It feels unique to them giving GSH more identity than a pet would. Main concerns were Charon's Ritual arguably low chance to procc and the overall lower dmg potential and options compared to the pet version.
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message

• lower overall dmg
  #1219672026160042118 message
  #1219672026160042118 message
• Charon's Ritual chances to procc are too low
  #1219672026160042118 message

Odd bevahiour

• GSH gains souls when continuing through floors, per summon despite them not dying.
  #1219672026160042118 message
• Charon's Ritual and PE4 interaction
  #1219672026160042118 message

Suggestions

• simple dmg pact, increasing chances of Charon Ritual to procc when used
  #1219672026160042118 message
• either increase Charon's Ritual chances to procc or let it summon multiple again
  #1219672026160042118 message
  #1219672026160042118 message
• Semi AoE pact (repeating suggestion)
  #1219672026160042118 message

Biggest concern🗣️

Many ppl are upset about losing the ability of pacts to interact with summons that are summoned by another source e.g. replicas or other players summons.

• certain duo raid strategies aren't possible anymore

• GS's coop potential with eachother lessened

• no use for replicas anymore, can't get rid of them either

• 200+ messages about pacts not affecting summons from other sources. Starting here
  #1219672026160042118 message
  #1219672026160042118 message
  #1219672026160042118 message
  #1219672026160042118 message
  ending with this summary.

[coral pawn]

@pulsar steppe ☝️

[fluid girder]

i remember odie saying intended some hours ago just today

[winter chasm]

the change yes, i was asking about if the 18 months where we were able to use other ppl summons were intended or not

[somber parrot]

#1219672026160042118 message

[raven python]

this is a very honest and in a way brutal spot on statement, as there's another game by NFS that is going to be at the receiving end of whatever comes from all of this (which I'm now turbo reading through) and it perhaps would be a good point to consider if said game should have a separate beta server / feedback channel etc instead of just awaiting an update based on a playerbase from a separate product
imagine how abstract it would be if it was the other way around ;)

[safe wyvern]

Can we add the Charon Ritual II and and Paired Essence IV doesnt work together? IG: IF charon summons one summon in a field with no summons, PEIV doesn't proc and if charon ritual doesnt proc, PEIV procs, idk if it was intended or not

[coral pawn]

It's on one Server mainly to keep intel tied to one place for better rereadability.

I tried including players of said other game
https://discord.com/channels/1002558846222471248/1235842582215524372

Please feel free to state your opinion here🙂

[plain niche]

did they just kill my bloodpact beo build(bc bloodpact beo relies hard on beithirs summons)

[somber parrot]

Of course

[wispy phoenix]

can we get an F for keith

[pulsar steppe]

Hey there - I’m just going to ask you to leave this thread. If testing and experiments are difficult to handle, it may be best to stray away from betas, as live betas such as this will contain experimental changes.

To everyone: we’ve enabled slowmode on this thread to keep players’ messages thoughtful and constructive. Unproductive banter only makes useful feedback harder for the studio to find, and just makes this process longer, more difficult, and more drawn out than it already is.

Going forward, I will need to start removing players who continue to derail this thread. Thanks!

[spark plover]

It's kinda amazing how much downwards new GSH seems to be going

[pulsar steppe]

Please read the message above

[spark plover]

The guy had a point though, airing out grievances regarding how it actually would be for the class on the endgame side of things. I'm more surprised your message was directed towards him despite all of that rather than the other guy spreading misinfo

[pulsar steppe]

Please keep messages in here on-topic to the current state of GSH in the beta, per my message above

[spark plover]

• Pact-summon interactions being removed was a bad move, what was even the point of that?

• That combined with loss of follower along with yielding to Guidelight demands when you've already got Soul mechanic working with lost summons is just wasting your already established work for yet another hellhole that you'd need to work yourselves out of.

GS and GSA already have Guidelight, you missed out having the GSH be its own thing by placing it back near the other two instead of expanding on what possibilities it could have with Guidelight out of the question.

You were literally on the verge of balancing out the lacks of amity perks in relation to follower by having the follower mechanic available for GSH but you hit off the mark

[leaden gust]

I think a point is being missed a little:
That feedback has been provided and the ORN did a solid write up (see above and in pinned messages).
You current messages are in response to Odie simply trying to keep the thread on track, productive and less focused on complaining without solution.

The studio, and the ORN find it much easier to filter through feedback that is well thought through and provides insightful suggestions. This is what Kaine (and John) has been trying to do 🙂

Let's not get into back and forths when the dev is trying to make this work for everyone please!

[pulsar steppe]

Additionally, just to keep everyone in the loop: the pact interactions referred to here have existed in the majority of this beta, far beyond yesterday’s changes.

I believe we can all agree that there has been plenty enough said about it at this point

[latent pumice]

i do think Odie wants feedbacks not more and more complaints atm
Just to say that imo mechanics are as imporr as raw stats---for the GSH now, the mechanics is too mediocre given the low stats of it, maybe consider boosting it on either aspects

[cosmic knot]

Like What?

[latent pumice]

in a nutshell im just saying it needs an urgent boost

[leaden gust]

Heya folks - I'm locking the thread for now.
ORN did a great job summarising the concerns and providing some solutions.
We may reopen if further adjustments are made 🙂

[pulsar steppe]

Updates to Summoner/Hydrus are now live in the beta client:

* Increased Charon's Ritual proc chance
* Souls are no longer collected from summons at the end of battle```

Huge thanks to @coral pawn for continuing to provide great summaries of community sentiment.

I'm reopening this thread so that the changes can be discussed. Please ensure any messages here are _thoughtful_ and _constructive_. We want to get the right changes released just as much as anyone - please help us in doing that!

[cosmic knot]

What is the pact dmg reduction gonna be on the foreign summons?

[pulsar steppe]

There is no reduction - the bonus just isn't applied

[pine topaz]

Very limited testing but charons ritual now seems to be 25% chance of activating

[mint sluice]

wasn't it already around 25 ?
is it 30% then it chose a summon or is it 30% per summon equiped limited to 1 ? (like omre summon equiped = more chance) ?

[pulsar steppe]

it's 30%

[pulsar steppe]

30% for a proc, then summon is selected

[pine topaz]

Ah thanks, was just seeing a pretty much constant 1 every 4 turns but i may habe just been slightly unlucky

[mint sluice]

That's how random is randoming.
If you wanted more reliability and predictability, we could imagine a bar, charging at every summon death and once it's full it is consumed to cast 1 random summon skill (yes it looks like apex, but that's what I like about it, it's not random)
You could then double down on it with potential gear / adorns that boost the charge rate.

However the game is heavily random by design so I don't think that it's a move NF is going to make because that's just not how they see the game.

[brisk sentinel]

It may just be me, but using Hydrus Pact 2 fails. It says "reconnecting" in the top right for a split second and nothing happens.
I checked for updates in the store.
I force stopped the app and tried it again.
I unequipped the spell and reequipped it.

[brisk sentinel]

Update: the free summon from Charons Ritual is what is breaking Hydrus Pact. Works fine with starting summons, but as soon as you get a free one, stops working.
Double update: now working fine!

[twilit flame]

hydrus pact works fine for me

[rocky acorn]

Still think the pet is more interesting.
And that charon ritual is more annoying for bp setup than helpful (I know it's going to change.... But it still hasn't.)
When the first thing I think about a passive is "I wish I could turn it off"... That's bad...

And yeah.... I know the hydrus bp build is rubbish in high AL...

But I need to get there first....
I will try whatever will be out in the end because I love this game. But as it is now.
I dont know if I'll keep enjoying gsh.

[pulsar steppe]

Hey there,

"When the first thing I think about a passive is "I wish I could turn it off"... That's bad..."

These are the comments we'd like to see stay out of this thread as we look towards a solution. Let's consider offering more constructive solutions, perhaps akin to:

"There are situations where Charon's Ritual may not be advantageous. Perhaps adding in a stance that temporarily disables the passive could be ideal? Or perhaps it is less likely to proc when there are few to no summons out?"

[brisk surge]

I like the concept of stances that affect your summons, that could even be explored further at a later date

[pine topaz]

I think we were pondering that in the benefactor adjustment thread calling them rituals. Toggling it would be cool but i don't see the issue (but that might just be me), it is basically free fodder and damage.

[brisk surge]

Rituals would definitely give all iterations of summoner a buff if done properly, eg, damage buff but lower hp

[rocky acorn]

sorry if I misunderstood you, but I thought you asked for our opinion regarding the nekro and follower versions.
so I gave my answer, I liked the follower version over the nekro.
not that the follower version was prefect, but it looked much more fun (for me)
if you ask me for what will fix the nekro? yes, a stance will do fine, at least I wont have to deal with "charon pact"ing unasked low HP summons for BP setup that are summoned while I summon AD...
Also
you can choose using charon ritual for other activities.

and as many said here before me - it would be cool if HyPa damage will be boosted so it will be worth it to lose 3 summons.

I have more ideas that are not related to the nekro version.
I can share some of them if you'd like me to.

[safe wyvern]

Can we have the summon spell selected? Could bring more HyPa potencial with more potential summons in raids since we have multiples summon spells and they all are low power/hp and high HP/power summons have already only once per spell and a priority for hydrus pacts that kill the weakest summon for the HyPa, to cycle while using BP

[wispy phoenix]

is it true that the gsh pact bonus is only 30% now? My formulas for HyPa and BP seem to work normally for base gs so I don't think that's the issue

[coral pawn]

Coming from the HoA server
#1235842582215524372 message

Mainly HoAs feedback evolves around the changes to pacts interacting with summons from other sources.

• GS coop raiding is a very huge part of their early t10 to late t11 cooperation making it possible for early t10s to support late game players while also benefiting from that interaction
• this type of multiplayer is a big part of their gameplay even incentivising guides on how to be a good summoner support

While changed to what it is now, working without pact multipliers, they mainly want to highlight that this changes will heavily affect their meta and they want to know:
Why was it changed?

[wispy phoenix]

I would also like to know what is meant with 'your pact bonus will only apply to your own summons'. Is that the class passive pact bonus only that we miss out on, or also including all gear like nekro staff, rift summoner helmet etc?

[coral pawn]

As for the changes:

A pact interaction with summons from other sources is possible again, nice. Further testing will be needed to check

• how much it affects the overall dmg
• how does it affect summoners doing the dmg vs mages doing the dmg

A proc rate buff, nice. It's still not able to maintain a fluent stream of summons for HyPa but i guess its rate might either be increased by

• gear, adorns etc
• the mentioned stances we also scratched back then #1179718548185157652 message are imo a great opportunity.
  Personally i can not see NekroGSH as a BP class since it's lower summon stats and due to Pie maybe lower pact multiplier just doesn't compete to base GS anymore even with a stacked Hydrus passive so i don't mind Charon Ritual being active all the time.
  So going all in on HyPa i'd give Charon Ritual a base chance that can be inhanced by either stance similar to how Collateral Damage stances work
• a stance to buff the proc rate
• a stance to enable multiple summons

Yes, no souls gain per battle is inconvenient but absolutely understandable as it was a weird interaction with guidelight intact.

[safe wyvern]

Even with the lower summon HP, with the 3 high HP summons, HyPa still loses for BP2 with hydrus solo, but the nice thing is that it seems Berserk extra defence during dungeon is neglected using HyPa, but Charon ritual and PEIV are still conflicting if all summons are killed in the floor before i saw during the fadeout Charon ritual summoned before the floor ended, idk if it is possible to negate it

[distant estuary]

In regards to turning the passive off, what if the ritual was instead the stance kind of thing? You turn on the stance to enable X% chance to summon an equipped summon at a weaker strength per turn to enable HyPa and soul stacking, but you can turn it off again with reuse to go back towards a BP setup? I do like the concept of Charon ritual giving the summon but as mentioned with its reduced stats on already weaker summons, it pushes the class more to HyPa only playstyles and takes away BP availability

[safe wyvern]

Comparing live raid vs beta raid is kinda difficult if you use BP with prep (getting it to 100%) and with 0% it is more or less equal because sometimes the rngsus hates you and you need to sit 12 to 16 turns to summon them all, you definitely have less damage but at the time you dont need to summon them all and now with 6 or 7 raids after all damage buffs i had 5 summons, I think live raid with ultima got buffed since now I have more summons to try to give blight/sigil, i didnt test the duo stuff so i cant say it
What is the % of summon power we have from charon ritual?

[safe wyvern]

If Charon Ritual was a skill like a Call from Beos, we could have a passsive in hydrus that gives us the first ritual on the spell list when we start yhe battle and we add a spell slot to accomodate for it, for the ones that doesnt want to use it and we can still turn it off by not having a ritual spell with you and you can have multiple rituals to swap between, and other classes could use it but they would suffer from failling the rituals

[wispy phoenix]

Havent tested extensively but I think the charon summons get summoned without any stat bonuses, so just the stats the monster would have in the wild

[safe wyvern]

Yeah, its half of the normal summon, i forgot anubis had a fixed level 🤦

[coral pawn]

When thinking about the lack of raw power of this version and the potential of stances:

• a stance increasing your dmg/pact multiplier at the cost of souls/Hydrus charges per turn

Easy to maintain with HyPa not useful with current pact interaction with summons from other sources, hard to maintain in endless or soley with BP in general.

Imo souls/Hydrus charges as a resource in exchange for power or utility are still a great concept.

[somber parrot]

What about give GS "Commands" instead of stance? Also other GS can use, like: Command: Attack

[coral pawn]

I do like the fact that other GS versions such as base GS would not be able to use soul stances cause we won't run into problems concerning BP later down the line.
However i agree that commands for baseGS and GSA would be benefitial in terms of micromanagment.

Also when talking to @rocky acorn we figured that early AL folks might have a survivability problem when taking the HyPa route as NekroGSH since CR is too RNG to reliably fill the field after you cleared it with HyPa thus you'll stand there alone at some point.
Maybe a little bump in defensive stats (further increased by Hydrus) is enough?
Or is there smth else we can come up with?

[lyric flicker]

Something else I'd like to see is something that makes amity hunting as rewardable as beo with bonds 1 for memories. Weather it be a summoner only pair of boots or chest or head that gives the same amount the bonds does or maybe something that allows summoner to have a pet for passive effects but doesn't do anything. Like a little buddy you link with for bonds

[coral pawn]

Like... a GSH version with a pet?

[lyric flicker]

Not with a pet I'm very anti pet. But bonds. As it currently stands gs/a/h is the only classes without access to 20% memory hunt that comes with bonds. So something similar that gives the ability to use bonds from a pet but the pet is frozen unable to do anything it's kinda like carrying around a stuffed totem so to say that's only usable for grand summoner and the celestials. Along with maybe the lower summoner classes

[rocky acorn]

Hi guys.

What are your thoughts regarding
"Optional follower"?
make the follower optional.

You can already choose not to take a follower with other classes or to use an item to lose the followr and you get stronger (Eastern regalia)

if you have follower - no guidlight, battlelions 3>2, pe4>2 etc
if you choose to not have one - nekro/something else...

Maybe it can be treated as an ability called "familiar"... like a "permanent summon (that can be chosen among your available followers) that you sacrifice some of your abilities for" and Hydrus is all about sacrificing things so it kinda fits. I think it could be cool,
everybody wins.

[brisk surge]

That's an interesting take, not sure how easy it would be to implement aha

[coral pawn]

So the bonus of bestial bonds without a follower. Non Beo classes usually have to invest amities or gear to tap into BBs so it'd be simply a straight upgrade for the whole classline and not only GSH.
Considering BBs have some powerful stuff what would you take away to balance it?

[latent pumice]

i do think it is a very interesting idea
we could make some passive of GSH more powerful without the presence of a pet, but becomes weaker or even unavailable with one

[coral pawn]

Kinda like the Eastern Regalia mechanic.

[lyric flicker]

Yes and summoners would still have to via amity

And you can achieve the buff via spec as well for tamer

[plain niche]

Whats the point of chosing the "follower" if it does not give you anything? And if you want To use bb1 you need To use the "follower" + aminity To get a Bond bonus(ngl but it sounds kinda bad and I would prefer a normal follower that actually does something )

[coral pawn]

Ye i think the option of additional gear effects blues mentioned sounds way more intuitive to me if you're looking for an additional bonus w/o a follower.

[lyric flicker]

It would allow users to get bestial bonds 1 memory effect. While still allowing the player be a grand summoner you don't get the follower to act cuz that's gonna change how the class works and is a no go. Also in every single instance out side of memories you'd be better off taking a 1 of a few amity's that's not beastial bonds 1

[rocky acorn]

"Optional follower" will give you that (for a price)

How substantial is this amity bonus?
Is it 20% for better amities? Or rewards?

What other bb would you like to be available for summoners,

And if it's only the amity bonus,

Why not just switching for beo?you dont need high al for memory hunting..) or is it just misses the point in your opinion?

[lyric flicker]

no als on beo so it makes clearing fights difficult. again its just a 0ed follower for beastial bonds 1 personally id like to see them remove it from a follower and make it something for gear that you can grab similar to a fishing hat. ive always found it weird that they lock specific game concepts behind a class or specific time of year (talking about argos and tethra) along with amity hunting being the biggest class wall making it to where everyone is required to play beo or use a specific amity with the 100% memory rewards. as for bonds you can get. none of them out class a 40% crit 30% dragon or max pact damage/max summon stats for about every single class in game its not til 2 and 3 that things actually become worth using for anything but amity hunting

[gentle quarry]

I do get the point about amity hunting but i don't think it's an actual problem, it's not like we're currently swimming in BB1/100% memory rewards amities

[rocky acorn]

A gear could be cool, but is it really that important?

The activity is not locked, just the bonus.. and if i understand you correctly, it's for the rewards (mats. Orns. Gold.), not the actual amity (no?)

Also, what fights are you talking about?
You only have one memory activity with a fight, and usually it's not that hard... Even for low al beo, unless I'm missing something?

[lyric flicker]

when your using a pet that doesnt do damage and your not using a beo celestial things that have about 20k hp tend to 1 shot alot of things or they are alot more tanky with decent damage and base beo doesnt do damage its self without gearing for it but gearing for damage means not gearing for max rewards

[coral pawn]

Just to take a step back. Is that a suggestion concerning the whole classline or NekroGSH thus the main topic we're trying to follow rn?

[lyric flicker]

it could do both potentially be something for just gsh would give it a unique idea specifically for hunting as gs would allow als for those who use summoner to still be accounted for in all parts of the game. i think gsh having a unique reason to be used for memory hunts along with pact ideas would be really interesting

[coral pawn]

Noted, thank you🙂

[safe wyvern]

Idk how much early is early, im near 40 AL and Im having problems too xD

[rocky acorn]

Im 31

[coral pawn]

Dunno i'd say AL20ish is early? However that's important to know. Do you have an idea on what to improve to give you a propper fighting chance?

[safe wyvern]

Im not saying we need followers, I'm still thinking on something assides battalion, but with the other classes we can have T.All^^^ for most of the time with Phoenix so the lack of main status may be the problem, if we need tons of ward we can have a golem that can give 15% ward a turn, and an extra 100% def/res with phoenix (not taking account the damage, just defences here) I think the main problem is that we dont have anything to remedy gap between ward regen or 100% defences for a period of battle and we have less status naturally against other T10

[coral pawn]

So we're looking for ways to either generate ward or defensive buffs passively w/o a follower🤔

[rocky acorn]

Like more supportive summons?

Like the sphinx with it's cleanse?
I take it as my first summon on activities with alot of debuffs..love this guy

[safe wyvern]

Maybe during the soul absorption? Recover X% ward or X% of summon HP as ward? Since its not a fisical thing, HP would be inappropriate, but it would have to work after 100% cap the soul gauge

[safe wyvern]

I think the problem would be deeper because it is a selfcast skill, just like most ward skills, they would have to code special skills variants for each summon the wanna cast it on us, and the summon would have 6 targets to cast it, that would make it unviable

[rocky acorn]

Gotcha.
Regarding non self cast ward spells

Mend wall can work.
Also fortify.

6 targets are an issue indeed, although... (Not related to the subject)
It could work pretty good with an auriga
Especially in low Al

[coral pawn]

Ye that would be my main concern, the RNG. Also base GS and GSA have no survivability problem with Battalions 3.

I thought about smth like

• gaining a soul/a summon dying grants you 1-2%HP and Ward
  or if that's too strong
• overcharging your Hydrus passive grants you 1-2%HP and Ward per surplus soul/dead summon

Doesn't sound much but considering we're handing out summons like they're out of fashion it should stack up.

[rocky acorn]

I don't think it's op
I even think a recharge ability (like beo hydrus) and give HyPa the option to crit (of course to balance it so it won't be too strong) could be reasonable (as a mechanisem, I undestand that atm it will be too much and need to be balanced)

[safe wyvern]

Considering the actual influx of the summons I think it is kinda low, a HyPa would give 5.5k for me
A ward of ortanite is like 12k, and we became more squishy altomatically after HyPa cause it is 3 targets in the field If you had 5 summons before HyPa (best scenario), and with the influx of summons today that is capped for a 30% chance of an extra summon per turn, it is a 30% of gaining an extra 1800 heals

[brisk surge]

I like the idea of rituals still, being like stances that affect how you summon, like things you summon do more damage but have hp cut, or summons have more health but won't attack/have less attack

[lyric flicker]

maybe something like when you sacrifice a summon it treats it similar to a ruby

[brisk surge]

I also like this idea, or something similar. It adds more of an identity to the class, doesn't sound too overpowered and could be an interesting mechanic, especially with a hypa playstyle

[safe wyvern]

And we if we compare to other classes defences and possible defences without taking the damage out it is kinda low too
Gilga can recorver the SS3 ward cost with gear and benefit it with damage
Heretic have heal based on damage and elemental imunity
RS have a flat chance to dodge
Beo have recharge (10% on crit) and protect chance, and I remember abusing it to recover HP and mana before summoner entered the game
Deity have the raw status, it is like almost 1k def and 4k extra HP

** and they have followers to help

[coral pawn]

It's not meant to be your main source of survival, rubies, adorns and amities should still be a thing.
It's more like a constant stream, a supportive passive if you will.

[rocky acorn]

and GSH is the embodiment of "best defense is a good offense"
so we literally kill our "meatshield" to do damage 🙂

[coral pawn]

We still have up to 5 summons for the AI to target. Keeping them when cornered is an option too.

[safe wyvern]

So we need to not do damage to have a chance to survive? In case pf HyPa, I personally am ignoring it during raids and in endless on beta it is useful just to use as serk Killer and Im still having problems to kill not low tier raids like Ashen Phoenix, someone like Linx or Morrigan makes it way more difficult with 50% power summons to survive and to do damage, I cant test on Morrigan, but Linx is 1 tapping my AD and dealing like 50k damage to me

[rocky acorn]

we can also sac pact for HP
but I think Illuseon was referring to a way to play aggressively while passively deal with HP\ward loss, or extra defense\ damage avoiding mechanism (please correct me if I'm wrong)

[safe wyvern]

Yes, and just to make sure generally I just stack the passive for hard raids before starting so Im with the buff stacked just to not having the confusion of not having the buff or editing again the comment

[coral pawn]

Yes that's what my suggestion is targetting. Killing 3 summons with HyPa granting 6% ward and HP leaning further into HyPa. Numbers are changeable ofc.

It working like rubies is possible too ofc.
A summon dying gives a chance to heal x% ward is possible too.
Personal preference i'd say.
I like less RNG more.

[safe wyvern]

Bastallions makes a good difference with between beta and live (with battalion II)

Im ignoring pet GSH just to clean it up

[twilit flame]

NecroGSH
the concept is refreshing with the autosummon.. however, I can't see myself playing necroGSH over base GS or GSA

a. Hypa sacrifice 3 summon but damage is low and once the summon are gone, i feel "naked".
suggestion : increase hypa damage and tweak hydrus passive, our defense also get stronger as passive is charged

b. for raiding, necroGSH locked to hypa playstyle and currently hypa not rewarding and slow
maybe ultima? (autosummon Ancient dragon,anubis, glasthyn). not tested yet but it seems the damage will be lower than base GS and much slower if we need to charge passive 1st
suggestion : no idea 🙂

if we have to choose between current necroGSH and previous GSH, I'll choose previous GSH (with pet) but pe4 instead of pe2 🙂

[coral pawn]

It really does. However it ain't pairing well with HyPa unfortunately.

[safe wyvern]

Can we have a Pettify pact?
A pact thar forces all the summon skills affects us? So we can have like golem casting ward on us of phoenix casting divine bastion? There is some summons with passive buffs and we can have skill based gear to have more stuff too like the "Swordplay" gear

Just one summon

[somber parrot]

1. Auto summon after kill enemy (No need if auto summon chance is enough)
2. Heal HP/Ward when summons dies, heal more after passive full charge (% adjustable）
3. Stances or commands to close the auto summon passive and boost your dmg
4. Hypa sacrifice 3 weakness summons, not random

[safe wyvern]

A third Idea
Passive: Meatshield
The last (or first ) summon equipped is summoned in front of you in battle, all battle damage is damaged on it until it is killed, HyPa cant sacrifice it but BP can sacrifice its HP (maybe doesnt count PEIV passive)