#Grand Summoner Hydrus Update

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

safe wyvern
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Why the hydrus pact passive then?

wispy phoenix
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if this is really meant to be a spell to build around, when pseudo aoe hydrus pact lol

past jolt
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yes but achlys pact definetly wasnt made to be a hydrus passive stacking thing

cold crag
past jolt
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it feels like this is

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although current version doesnt deliver imo

cold crag
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it's "sacpact2 but you deal some damage instead of heal some hp"

safe wyvern
past jolt
safe wyvern
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Get more pact damage and less summon status to just use Heretic and Deity skill

past jolt
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wouldnt that just make the passive charging slower?

cold crag
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it's a lean, not a requirement.

wispy phoenix
cold crag
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it's "maybe you should use hpact for damage" not "you must use hpact for all your damage"

cold crag
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like I said, artifact of the old way of thinking. before GSH identity was well-defined

wispy phoenix
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and yet bp is still better than this spell currently

safe wyvern
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I really dont think ANOTHER CLASSES DAMAGING SKILLS should be used
All other classes at least inside their path (warrior, thief, mage, beo, deity) uses THEIR CLASSES AS MAIN SKILLS so.... Pacts should be the focus

cold crag
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disagree^

past jolt
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orna is all about using all classes for their skills

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gaits

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divine bastion

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deific

safe wyvern
past jolt
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ultima

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spiked shield

safe wyvern
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But they have less effectiveness in most cases because status or the built in inside the skill

past jolt
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not really lol thats only for spiked shield

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cause otherwise its completely op

safe wyvern
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Beo have hybrid damage

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New passive for heretic have buffs for multiple elements

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Deity have limit breaks now

past jolt
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do you even know how the heretic passive works

safe wyvern
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Realm strikes are best used as RS

past jolt
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convo is getting out of topic

cold crag
past jolt
cold crag
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but also: no, there is no desire or requirement that "a class's skill should be best used by that class".

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especially in a world of celestial classes, which are intended to be weird versions of classes.

safe wyvern
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But you are just saying dump pact in the class with the pact passive

cold crag
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I'm saying BP specifically is not the best thing for GSH to be doing.

past jolt
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fux literally said like 5 messages ago just because you have a passive that boosts something it doesnt mean you have to use only that thing

safe wyvern
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Cant you it is kinda agaist the point of the class today?

cold crag
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HPact is. And GSH can/should use magic spells because it is a mage.
It can equip "mage-only" equipment 😛

past jolt
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the point of gsh is that its gs, but based on player damage instead of summons

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pacts are just a way to make it stand out more so its not just budget heretic

safe wyvern
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You have the best summon for the other classes inside it and a kill pact inside it with high damage and a passive to boost pact and a passive related to killing summons

cold crag
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Unlike other mages, it has access to summons that other mages don't. You get the benefit of utility summons, meatshields... while you are Ultimaing.
And then you have this HPact option either as a build-around skill for all your damage, or as a utility tool to just max your passive while dealing some damage.

past jolt
cold crag
safe wyvern
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So hydrus is the just flavour class because you use only batallion and the passive to stack damage

past jolt
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look there is literally no point of this convo odie is just going to have to go through 100 of messages that dont give any feedback lol

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i never said that

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im out, gave my 2 cents on hydrus pact already, maybe kaine can include it in the next pinned message #1219672026160042118 message

cold crag
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the feedback is "there is at least some community desire that GSH remain good at BP, somehow", I think.
but it has to be done in such a way that it doesn't force GSH to start needing/caring about summonHP.
or something.

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or rather, GSH has to be the best(?) at BP. its current BP is okay because it has that pact passive, but certainly after even a few ascensions base GS does it strictly better.

wispy phoenix
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all it probably needs to be good at bp is pe4: #1219672026160042118 message

past jolt
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that would break endless, no?

coral pawn
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#1219672026160042118 message
As per Odie it's not about minmaxing exisiting builds but adding diversity.
I read it as it's not meant to speed up the BP setup, which it still can be used to, but to become its own style

wispy phoenix
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rn the gap between ultima and bp in beta gsh endless is massive

coral pawn
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and that BP shouldn't be the baseline for HP

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So the way i see it is

  • HP is ment as its own standalone thing/style
  • it's to be compared to Ultima
  • HP can support the Hydrus setup
wispy phoenix
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I think the main question atm is: what is the goal of hydrus pact? Is it just a tool to speed up the setup for bp (which seems to be my impression given its lackluster performance as a standalone skill), or is it meant to be a spell to build around (like ultima, bp, chakram)

coral pawn
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Imo the latter, with the first being a possibility

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We just gotta get the numbers right

wispy phoenix
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the latter would definitely be more exciting

cold crag
wispy phoenix
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too many letters to type smh

coral pawn
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We call it HyPa now

sinful sluice
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After reading back to this and mulling it over a bit, a bit of an oddball idea came to mind: What if Hydrus had a passive that inherently boosted and/or guaranteed the success rate of summoning spells of themselves and their summons, at the cost of their stats.

Part of the hurt currently is the summon-summon-HPact cycle, which can be mitigated by using summon dead, which summons plenty of very frail skeletons in one turn, or by having pets that summon for fuel.

The cycle of summoning fodder to explode at an enemy's face does feel satisfying, and if the damage numbers are pumped a bit, plus the whole sacrificing three rather than five, it will likely feel like a good raiding tool.

So why the success rate increaser? Well, first of all, scarecrow would be nice to have. But that's not the only thing, actually. There are a couple of spells that summon several monsters on a chance. Summon harpy can actually summon 3 harpies. Summon Dead can actually summon up to 4 skeletons. And if you feel like gambling with riftlocks, Grand Summon can actually fill the entire board all at once. And with Eos, Summon Phaethon can actually summon 2 horsies.

wispy phoenix
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I like it

sinful sluice
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Possible counterargument: Goes against the "returning the power to the player" theme of Hydrus by having Hydrus doing summoning all over again

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Possible counterargument: Adding another passive at this point is unnecessary considering how much of a change Hydrus has already gotten, and a simple number tweak is likely to be enough to bring HyPa (mimic) to a useable state

cold crag
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assuming gsh needs something -- improving quantity (via success percentage, via number summoned, via turn reduction on summons, at the cost of hp/other stats) isn't a bad idea. the open question is how much help it needs if any.

and for hpact itself, damage numbers. I don't see how it's competitive with ultima despite that being thrown out there. lack of many multiplying scalers, plus turns spent in prep for each are different.

sinful sluice
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Personally it'd be more of a passive for the "Feel™️" than the power, but I'm not quite sure how worthwhile that is in terms of development

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the comparison with ultima is being made by Odie fyi, he said he based the numbers on it

cold crag
wispy phoenix
sinful sluice
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we've already ran comparisons. They're similar in a vaccum, but fall apart once other stuff starts interefering

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ah okay

robust turtle
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What if HyPa turns in to a defensive pact instead? Idk if it was already suggested, but could bypass the problem as it doesn't really looks like Hydrus needs another offensive spell

wispy phoenix
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what do you mean with a defensive pact?

robust turtle
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Like you sacrifice X summons and in return you gain some form of ward/extra hp/defensive t.buffs

wispy phoenix
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also doesnt feel in line with the current direction gsh is heading ngl. It seems to be heading towards glass cannon mage. GSA seems more like the kind of class that would care about safety

spark plover
spark plover
wispy phoenix
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yes but then we need MOAR PACTS

robust turtle
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I'm suggesting this because if Hydrus goes HyPa(HyPa, for the men of culture) and there are no more summons around I'm just a worse kind of mage with same ward buffer

spark plover
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And then on the other side of the coin, you've got a GSA that's versatile but with quality summons

spark plover
# wispy phoenix yes but then we need MOAR PACTS

Nah, just rework the existing pacts
That or make a GSH passive (which is most likely not on this rework's scope) that changes how pacts operate EXCLUSIVELY for GSH, kinda like how ward can do CD shenanigans but only for Gilga

wispy phoenix
wispy phoenix
spark plover
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I don't see how that's an argument for this ngl

wispy phoenix
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you expect too much from the average player mimic

spark plover
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Honestly, should be the other way around; I don't get why you're fine with having existing, unused pacts be niche/obsolete and then piling more pacts to solve the problems when you've complained previously of that practice for other matters regarding this game

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What use is there for Rhada Pact 1, Sac Pact 1, Achlys, Charon, etc. in terms of actually being competitive/viable? You'll ultimately spend more turns on a really specific situation that won't happen usually which would be fine if not for the fact that much more optimal solutions exist

cold crag
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"other way around" being that GSH should be the one that gets max summonHP for bloodpact, and gs/gsa get low summonhp and care about quantity and killing them? 😅 No, clearly BP just didn't fit a "low summon HP damage dealing summoner" identity.

as for all the other pacts, probably worth touching them up but not really a thing for a GSH patch. those others as listed are used more for GS/A. or adding new pacts to do other utility if changing old things isn't allowed.

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I could see a GSH utility pact that's like "kill a summon(s), get mag^ mag^^". like magboost+jinn+panacea all in one, but costs a summon which takes its own turn(s) to produce. That'd be a little more in line. Also probably not needed for now but y'know cool future planning stuff.

spark plover
# cold crag "other way around" being that GSH should be the one that gets max summonHP for b...

No, other way around as in why should the pact exclusive class (or at least, leading up to the creation and identity of this variant) should have a fuck ton of spells when it uses less than half of them? Even GS in its optimal state doesn't bat an eye on any of the aforementioned pacts unless they gut their efficiency of their own volition

What was the ideology for this rework again? "Rethink, Replace, Remove" or something along those lines?

cold crag
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GSH was never the pact exclusive class. That whole line of "it should be the best at pacts" wasn't true prior to this beta and is still not true. It's like "it can kinda do stuff with pacts, and does HPact really well compared to the others. it has nice little bonus passive for it. once ascension is changed maybe that changes".

spark plover
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Don't get me wrong, the new Hydrus Pact skill is a great addition for a much more realized GSH but all the pitches regarding adding new pacts when we could simply just rework the existing ones for a wider encompassing use case is right there

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Lmaoioo

wispy phoenix
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I dont disagree with that idea, as long as no existing functionality is lost

cold crag
spark plover
cold crag
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thought process goes like this:

  • GS is a brand new thing. it has summons, and there are pact skills which interact with summons/their hp
  • celestials are added, I guess just maximize the two things it does (summons, pacts) in different ways
  • could just wait to add celestials for them later but nah just ship it now
  • a year passes
  • okay now we actually have better ideas for what the celestials are and how they could/should work
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the emergent thing is that GSH should probably be "quantity over quality", that's a way cooler identity and actually causes new designs. GSA's warrior equip arguably matters more than any other part of it, too.

spark plover
cold crag
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I was on team "wait on GS celestials until they have better identities because 'more summon stats' and 'more pact effect' aren't interesting" 🤷‍♂️
It's exciting to see that being partially rectified as we speak. At least I think it's exciting and not lmaoworthy 😛

robust turtle
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What about buffing GSH pact multiplier too when soul counter hits max capacity? This way summonHP would matter even less

sinful sluice
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I do find Quality vs Quantity to be an interesting dichtomy for the celestials

spark plover
sinful sluice
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Maybe GSA will end up getting much stronger summons but have a hard cap on summons like one or two

spark plover
cold crag
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GSH can become the best BPer in the future, but that's gated behind ascension stuff. as Odie says.
it can still have crap summon hp but there's a number of +pacteffect that can theoretically outscale that, assuming ascension scaling goes away in some form.
but waiting on ascension changes has historically been a bad idea. like, the worst idea.

sinful sluice
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Paired Essence 2 --> Plentiful Essence (All 1-turn summons start on the field)

safe wyvern
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Idk how kuch weight we get in the slot department for balancing

sinful sluice
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I was just spitballing ideas. We're probably too late into the rework patch to be making changes that big anyway

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The realistic change is the HyPa number / sacrifice count change and that's that

cold crag
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GSH currently, in the beta right now, gets more quantity of summons than GS/A solely based on the ability to use a summoner-follower.
If you think it needs more, please do make the argument that it needs more. Because it's weak otherwise, because it's more flavorful, etc.

sinful sluice
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The "argument" was simply flavour, and partly because it feels odd that they start with 1 strong summon and then summon a bunch of weak ones. Which is fine, it just strikes me as odd.
It could also have some flavour of bringing a bunch of weaklings into dungeons due to the fact of how the essence passive works there, but again, it was a spitball idea, not a real, serious suggestion for the matter at hand

spark plover
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"HyPa" seems like it's such an awful name that'll stick with you...

sinful sluice
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Sounds like a chemical compound, or a disease

cold crag
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poor Odie probably wanted us to be talking about "hyp(e)" and instead we're all nerds calling it HPact HP and HyPa

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reminds me of the inventor of SCSI who wanted people to pronounce it "sexy" and instead everyone pronounced it "scuzzy"

sinful sluice
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TL;DR, from me:

  • Reasonable requests:

    • HyPa sacrifice count from 5 to 3 (hinted at by Odie)
    • HyPa damage boosted by around the 50% to 75% mark, for closer parity with ultima, considering the lack of quickcast/critboosters/eleweakness/eledamageboosters

  • Personal Dreamland Unrealistic requests:

    • Higher Summon Chance for Hydrus and their summons, at the cost of summon strength, to go deeper into the Quantity over Quality fantasy
    • Paired Essence 2 --> Plentiful Essence (All 1-turn summons start on the field), to go deeper into the Quantity over Quality fantasy
cold crag
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also worth writing down:

  • GSH should probably be the best BPer, can we put a hustle up on that ascension rework thingy thanks 🙏
  • There's still a lot of useless/bad pacts that need looked at but not necessarily for GSH rework
  • Could probably use one other source of +smartAI outside of event/augment, if there's some otherwise unused gear that could use a lovetap somewhere (for g/sh hpact, also noob beoas, also all-class summoner-follower setups)
safe wyvern
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It would be counter intuitive, but a "Call of Charon" would be nice for summoners

cold crag
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has anyone tested T9 summoner hydrus hpact1 yet? for damage comparison to other T9 spell options?

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I'm assuming not but hey might as well ask

sinful sluice
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There are tiers below 10?

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No, I have not, apologies

cold crag
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what... even is a good T9 baseline comparison? sorrow3 I guess?

sinful sluice
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Though if HyPa2 is suposed to be compared to Ultima, what is HyPa1 supposed to be compared to?

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I'd imagine people would be doing Nekrosis 2 rather than sorrow 3?

cold crag
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pretty sure sorrow3 > summondead2 still. of course I'm going back to 2019 memories for that, but the numbers haven't changed on those skills. only the spell was renamed.

sinful sluice
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Damage wise yeah

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it's the ease of charging

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plus yknow

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2 turner vs 3 turner

cold crag
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||we have beast dens now 😛 ease is maximal nowadays. and damage comparison already accounted for turn diff||

sinful sluice
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On the one hand yes, but on the other, they're t9s, probably don't run horde with any ease, and might not have easy access to dungeons. And definitely don't have concords

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But you might be right

fluid girder
cold crag
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best t9 mage comp is either sorrow3 or multi-elem2 I think.
or compared to summon damage, though buying summhydrus and going rhada pact seems silly when t9 summ/summaur exist

fluid girder
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i wanted to remove embed but discord doesn't have options

cold crag
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I kinda wish hpact1 was like T7 attuner, hpact2 was T9 summhyd, and hpact3 was T10 gsh.
Because T7-9 summoners certainly aren't using blood pact afaik.

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(1->2->3 just being damage scaling with same mechanics, which was already talked about as potentially needing change)

fluid girder
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they aren't because they don't bother learning about it, i'm sure whichever the tier that gets hydra unlocked can do decent BP at their tier

cold crag
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because they don't bother learning about it
it's not just ignorance. BP at low tiers does less damage than attack button because of low summon hp (base, and low +stat).

spark plover
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And I'm stretching it, including T9 on that

safe wyvern
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BP is not a skill designed for lower tiers, we even use it with Celestial weapons to boost it up to make it viable, a lower tier without the celestial weapon boost is useless, the only way to make it viable is to move the celestial weapon power to the BP (not wishing for it, just saying)

coral pawn
safe wyvern
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Can we ask a change in the celestial weapon department? XD
Adding the Eos parts to BP, and freeing us to use it to BP? There isnt much scale outside mag up in the celestial weapons (maybe quick cast only I think) and it would free us to use Belthir too and maybe other 2h staffs on the future, of if you wanna use Sequencer it would be a boost too because it would free the main hand slot (or changing its titan parts)
And would make BP better at start when you get it
Because BP damage is based on all eos parts to boost BP anyway right?

wispy phoenix
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jsyk, thats a 150% damage boost

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then you could use qc bp3 and it'd be comically strong

coral pawn
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My ORNacle tells me that Titan augments will be looked at at some point in the future so no reason to discuss them here.

violet drum
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the sun will also burn out "at some point in the future" and we'll get AL 2.0 "at some point in the future" and quadratic scaling will get changed again " at some point in the future" till then, and while we're still playing the game seems like plenty reason to discuss relevant solutions
AL affects summons for GS/A. so all discussion on summons and pacts should be shelved till AL 2.0
mag/atk/def/res/hp/ward scales off AL? and skills/spells scale off mag/atk? welp guess we shouldn't discuss anything based on those factors till AL 2.0 either then.

cold crag
coral pawn
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Makes more sense to me yes👍
However adding a new pact with the Celestials makes sense too.
I don't mind when it's added personally if it's after t7.

safe wyvern
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If we wanna focus on HyPa, maybe the coupled essence we had before should add a "summons costs no turn" line like the apex from D.ursa?
If we use 1 turn skills we could spam them at least before kill them or john idea for summon 1 turn stuff

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The turn cost would be associated to just the summon turn not the summoning turn ( "player is summoning..." part should still be there for multiple turns summons)

coral pawn
coral pawn
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Personally with dmg adjustments to HyPa and 3 sacced summons instead of 5, i don't know about a class inherited passive that provides mass summoning.
Sounds like the whole package.
I mean if we add mass summoning to the class it'd boil down to mass summon passive + Summon Dead > Hypa, Hypa repeat.
https://youtu.be/7Twnmhe948A?si=XTOhvBlvINjIu5QY

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No need to try other things, no need to chase additional gear, explore followers etc.

sinful sluice
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That's an entirely reasonable perspective

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Though, still, optimally you'd want to not have to summon the summons between Hypas, meaning you'd still want to explore followers

wispy phoenix
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there is always going to be a meta, doesnt mean that people cant use other builds

coral pawn
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Yes but imo the meta should not come with the class but with chaseable gear/ rewards.

wispy phoenix
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well you still need the correct gear to do optimal damage with hypa

coral pawn
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Yes and it's the same you need for optimal dmg with BP. When establishing a different style it should be visible in the loadout.

past jolt
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My 2 cents is that hydrus pact needs a huge damage increase in order to make it even close to blood pact level

coral pawn
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*Ultima Lvl

past jolt
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if it takes 5 summons for maximum power, it needs 4 turns on average (from a blank field with no summons) for maximum damage, and if takes 3 summons it needs 3 turns

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Assuming you're using skeletons which summon 2 on average+ the spell cast turn

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hydrus pact can't get quickcasted which I think is good because you need turns summoning which basically counts as charging up a multi turn(but cooler), but deals damage like a single turn spell imo

safe wyvern
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What is considered as Summon spell in Follower AI?

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Is there a way for us to force a summon spell? Like with Call of Brynhild or Skadi?

coral pawn
# past jolt hydrus pact can't get quickcasted which I think is good because you need turns s...

But we start with 1 summon on the field.
Summon Dead(min2)×2 + 1HyPa= 3turns, 2 summons left (if we go with 3 sacced summons).
From there it's always three turns with worst luck (Summon Dead summoning 2).
Atm this can be influenced by summoning followers and duplicating summons.
So either work with those or push future content like, dunno since we got free acc slots now
Hydrus Charm

  • every turn a skelli is summoned
coral pawn
safe wyvern
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Well... we could check with onryo

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It has summon dead xD

coral pawn
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Yes but unfortunately no DC like Eos and you kinda give up all your dmging gear for smart AI

past jolt
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and self replicating summons suck

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a damage increase would be nice and could make hydrus pact an alternate playstyle to blood pact for hydrus raiding imo

coral pawn
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Ab so lutely

past jolt
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this is my current damage on the beta and damn is it low lol

Screenshot_2024-04-10-20-26-19-683_orna.com.ornatest.jpg
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I don't think I have ascensions on this character

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But this is atleast 3 times lower damage than blood pact+ blood pact doesn't outright kill your summons so you can keep spamming

wispy phoenix
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gsh ad has about 100k hp. That means bp2 has an m1 of 10.5 with 5 dragons, that is twice as much as HyPa at 5 (if my estimate for hypa is correct)

haughty fern
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Just wanted to throw this out - what about Eos as pet and book of Charon in off hand? Will that fill the field enough to increase damage and decrease summoning turns?

The missed damage in off hand might offset any increase from additional summons tho.

coral pawn
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Why not just use Summon Dead and guarantee atleast 2 summons in a 1 turn spell instead of the RNG of Charon's Grimoire.

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Edit 2

Post Hydrus Pact Update

Overall Feedback

The addition of Hydrus Pact is highly appreciated.
Over the course of the conversation it was viewed as a standalone pact being worth building and strategizing around while also being able to support other builds by giving a more useful way to charge the Hydrus passive.
Its damage was compared to Ultima without multipliers applied by blights or weaknesses and 40-30-30 amities.

Ppl are most concerned about its low dmg and comparably long setup and high summon costs, clearing the field and leaving the summoner defenseless.
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Suggestions

  • increase the dmg 🕒🗣️
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  • reduce needed summons🗣️
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Odie's statement about a future iteration capping at 3 summons
#1219672026160042118 message
This is highly anticipated by all conversation participants as it solves many setup concerns and raised another suggestion concerning it sacrificing random summons.
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  • future HyPa sacrificing a defined group of summons (strongest/weakest/last three)
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Repeating Topic

Ways to summon weak summons faster
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The topic of a class inherited passive giving GSH more possibilities to fill the field fast glimpsed throughout the conversation.
No clear consens or much supported suggestion was found yet nevertheless the topic persists.

Bonus

  • John's summary
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  • Fux's addition
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Original summary post
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Edit 0.5
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Edit 1
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Edit 2.5
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This is very early feedback and will be edited over the course of the conversation.
Previous summaries and tackled concerns got edited and crossed out.

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@pulsar steppe ☝️
@sinful sluice pin pls

pulsar steppe
sinful sluice
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My pinning job

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Stolen

spark plover
distant estuary
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I don't know if this kind of thing has been brought cuz ive been sporadically reading, but what if you split the ascension scaling between Auriga and Hydrus? Like Auriga got a 1% atk/mag increase per ascension and Hydrus gets 1% hp per ascension. It would keep auriga summons getting stronger as you do, but hydrus summons getting the hp they would need to properly benefit BP

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Been messing around a bit between auriga and hydrus and it kind of hurts thay the non pact class gets 300k hp AD while Hydrus cant even pull out 100k hp AD

spark plover
# distant estuary I don't know if this kind of thing has been brought cuz ive been sporadically re...

Issue with that is that Auriga also needs the tankier summons
If they're relegated to summoning duties due to not having sufficient summon health resulting in summons getting killed before they can do their roles, not only would the "move next turn" for summons catch up to that, it'd also drastically reduce the amount of stuff that the summons can do (Phoenix Rituals in mind) and other additions leaning towards multi-turn/cross-summon gimmicks

distant estuary
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Ahh I see. I'm only just getting into summoner myself so this is something I hadn't overly looked into quite yet. That does make sense though. No point in having high offense if it's dead

sinful sluice
# distant estuary I don't know if this kind of thing has been brought cuz ive been sporadically re...

It has been mentioned yes, but there are a couple of reasons against it:

  1. Flavour: Hydrus is meant to be player-power focused, and giving them ascended summons goes against that idea.
  2. Power: Blood pact currently scales quadratically from ascensions on base summoner, meaning it is very powerful with ascensions. This is something that the team wants to remedy, and not create more of. Base summoner is likely going to be seeing a reduction in blood pact power in the future.
lyric flicker
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Id like to see a way that if you change classes to changes the summons stats to match that classes. Only allowing things like gsa with summon gear to stay if you stay on gsa

#

But if you swap to gsh or base gs your summons power changes to match that. Something like stats from gear are permanent but stat max changes to respect the class your on. That would allow gsh the ability to still do dungeons but not utilize class swapping mechanics

sinful sluice
#

Semi-snapshot-removal?

#

That somehow sounds more controversial than snapshot removal

lyric flicker
#

I mean it would allow people to use another class to summon for safety. But would counter people by passing the asc synergy from another classes

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Without completely ruining a part of the classes ability to complete pve

#

Every class can do all pve with it's designated skills and abilities. This rework would completely stop gsh from doing endless and horde boss with it's own unique skills

coral pawn
#

So to get this right,
you suggest to make summon stats like a base stat thus changing on a summon uppon changing gear/classes by reentering a dungeon?
While being a plausible concept the way summons work now is that of an independent entity thus once summoned its stats cannot be changed.
So to implement your idea a massive overhaul would be needed and i fear this is out if reach for this beta🤔

brisk surge
#

Why not just put the dark and light damage passive from gs to gsh

#

Would that not do something? It'd remove some of the silly scaling of gs and make gsh stronger right?

#

Or does blood pact not do dark or anything

coral pawn
#

No BP does eleless dmg.
You'd only transfer a massive 2.25x Ultima multiplier to a class with access to sigils and blights via followes and summons.

brisk surge
#

Big oof

coral pawn
#

Here a short summary of the BP problem on GSH.
#1219672026160042118 message
However with Hydrus Pact we have a summon stat independent pact, which is nice👌

lyric flicker
coral pawn
#

Yes, basically removing snapshotting from summons which is an opinion but would massively influence the whole classline and arguably demand an equivalent exchange in power or it'd be a flat nerf, a tremendous one.
What i'm saying is that it might be out of scope for this beta.

sinful sluice
#

It'd also lead to a movement of people desiring removal of snapshotting as a whole between classes

plain niche
#

Im fully down for removing snapshot so it would make endless harder+ maybe at somepoint my eos gets quidelight ❤️

past jolt
#

has anyone checked if we got any tweaks to hydrus pact damage?

sinful sluice
#

I have not, no. Though usually Odie posts here whenever he updates something

lyric flicker
#

the intended way that hydrus works was suppose to be that id didnt have incredibly strong summons so why would they allow summons to stay after using gsa to summon for them. its disapointing to loose guidelight and 2 summons for me because how i used the class was just to save me some orns from changing so much. id get everything set up on gsa and then swap to hydrus and treat it the same way i treated gsa just with slightly less ward and a darkest garb

#

and a simple change for dungeons would stop them from having to change everything else

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simply because the change occuring is to prevent asc summons and bp together on a class that makes it stronger and the only place you can summon and then change classes is dungeons currently

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and as it currently stands with the beta the only class to have less than 5 passives in t10 is gsh every other class has 6+ and even most of the t9 celstials have more than 4

coral pawn
#

This is indeed an interesting topic. What holds it back is that summons once summoned are individual entities whose stats cannot be changed afterwards.
So a deeper change would be necessary which again is out of scope of this beta.
If you want to further explore your suggestion, please go ahead in
https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1189642458108276766

coral pawn
sinful sluice
#

Oh hey

#

wonder how long that has been there for haha

#

Damage seems to be slightly higher than before?

#

same loadout and setup as last time

#

saccing all 5 netted me 1.25m damage

#

now saccing 3 nets me 1.5m damage

coral pawn
cunning marlin
coral pawn
#

80

cunning marlin
#

I see

wispy phoenix
#

nvm my dumbass forgot about gsh passive

#

its looking like M1=1.5 * number of summons sacrificed

coral pawn
#

Well cectus ain't that good of a test dummy due to AoE

wispy phoenix
#

well its an improvement for sure

coral pawn
#

And a 100% scarecrow would be so good there

wispy phoenix
#

numbers wise it seems like it could still lose to bp

coral pawn
#

For now

wispy phoenix
#

with 2 ADs you have roughly the same power as a full hypa with bp2, and the ADs dont die immediately

#

sustaining it seems likethe main issue atm

#

because if you have to summon dead -> hypa -> summon dead etc, that means its essentially 2 turn

#

and then bp is going to win by a landslide

coral pawn
#

Summon Scarecrow 100%
#💡│suggestions message

distant estuary
#

If not beithir may work in thatbsituation. It sacrifices your weapon and offhand though so maybe not that great

coral pawn
#

You'd lose a whopping 2,2x dmg multiplicator on pacts and sequenzing plus the HP on Beithir would not make up for it.

past jolt
#

ill be trying this out later to see how it performs on 10 ascenscions

#

doesnt look that great though tbh, compared to blood pact

#

i cant see myself using it

#

probably just to charge passive lol

pulsar steppe
#

Remember, blood pact will likely see adjustments given the interactions with it and ascensions.

This beta will be most effective without comparison to blood pact

coral pawn
#

Thus i compare it to Ultima (no blights/weaknesses/40-30-30 amities) and it looks solid dmg wise only held back by the absence of a fluent summon sustain.
Like i wrote earlier that's smth i would like to work towards throughout gear or additional summons imo.

#

Also with a BP adjustment the pact amity might be checked too further bolstering HyPa.

wispy phoenix
#

if bp is nerfed the meta is going to be mostly ultima I guess

#

it already is

#

right now its ultima > bp > hypa

#

are we going to see any adjustment to ultima as well then? Right now ultima is so ridiculous that it still matches quadratic bp at al100

brisk surge
#

We could start with all 5 summons? But they can't do anything for X amounts of turns, that could speed up sacrificing for extra damage

#

Especially if getting rid of battalions

#

Or they die immediately from a sickness or something

#

But lessen the amount of summons

#

Or once we've summoned, we could cast a ritual to bring them all back on low health to be sacrificed again to speed up damage gain

#

And again they cannot attack etc

#

Or a ritual that could work with hypa, complete summoning, sacrifice with hypa, ritual to resummon on next to no health and cannot attack etc - hypa and repeat

safe wyvern
#

Yeah we still need something summon related, we are still using summon dead as a bandaid solution, we should just slap some replicates and/or multiple summons property on hydrus passive or on some summons to help out, golems could have it since they are not the best thing in town to be used and they already have some problems using wards and stuff like that instead of attacking for purpose of damage to the other summoners

coral pawn
#

After the warding AI changes Golems are lit👀

safe wyvern
#

Didnt checked it since after i got AD but... we still need some quantity power, even at the dummy, its arrowrain can mess up with tests and bosses/raids most likely will mess up with you with summon dead, you can expect 4 summons before Hypa, and 1 or 0 after it

coral pawn
#

Just going through the options we have rn.

Mass summoning, active

  • Summon Dead
  • Charon's Grimoire off-hand, Grand Summon

Replica Summons, semi passive

  • Scarecrow
  • 2H Beithir's Staff, Beithir

Summoning Followers, passive

  • Eos
  • Ophion
  • Onryo
safe wyvern
#

The problem is that if you spend 20k for class, 17 or 18k for celestial weapon, and 30k for eos, you would still only have Eos and summon dead outside spooky month or reruns of the titan and giants event

#

And it is a 70k investment in skyshards, its just "oh just farm it" but most ppl with not tons of AL and gear dont have access to high amounts of shards which makes the pact even more gated

#

And if we compare outside the vacuum of 2 turn spamming, Blood Pact have a 1 turn delay after X amount of uses to use Life Pact II that can easy heals 100% of summon HP, ultima doesnt need setup between casts like summon and Hypa have a 2 turn spam only

wispy phoenix
# coral pawn Just going through the options we have rn. **Mass summoning, active** - Summon ...

scarecrow could be interesting yeah, not sure if the summoned scarecrows already count for hypa tho. But eos, ophion and onryo come with massive opportunity costs since you'd be giving up tmm or any other buff follower. It's still just going to be objectively worse than ultima and bp as far as I can tell. Hypa could be fun to experiment with but its not going to be meta in its current state

#

maybe if scarecrow works properly

safe wyvern
#

Its kinda funny to think GSA have a multiple summon skill and GSH have the best non event summon for summon damage

coral pawn
#

The man hinted 2 times that BP will be changed so i'd not insist on it being strictly better than HyPa
#1219672026160042118 message

safe wyvern
#

And Im comparing the situation that what if you didnt kill it in 2 turns

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If you count it survived each turn you need to summon more to use the skill again is turns you need to pray to rngsus for your T.buffs to stays and for your news summons not to die because we he a 800 hp summon to do the trick, you can do 4 BP3 and 9 BP2 and have a 1 turn lifepact cast

#

Ultima can just spam until your buffs fall off, so BP is a way generous comparison

coral pawn
#

I get that, Hypa's downside atm is that atm there is no reliable way to sustain a consistent stream of summons to
sacrifice to the elder gods!
However my personal standpoint is still this
#1219672026160042118 message
Instead of giving me the flawless bundle i'd like to chase different pieces be it gear, followers or summons to complement HyPa.

safe wyvern
#

It is already a class that usually uses 2 slots to deal damage in the helmet and main hand, and if you summon a more than one turn summon you will use both acessories with omega rift.... a 4 slot locked and specific summon reliant class is kinda meh

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And if you give an auto-ress piece, auriga and normal GS would have a way better time than GSH with it

brisk surge
#

Could be gear that gives summon disease and kills summons on turn one or whatever turn would be best, but increases pact damage

#

But makes the summon weaker in return, or unable to attack

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For x amount of turns

#

That way gs and gsa wouldn't benefit fully

#

Maybe the summon gets a countdown like doom, and cannot attack for that many turns etc

safe wyvern
#

And there is the fact that hydrus passive is not a 60% buff in a full setup you already have way more than 200% so it is less than 30% buff compared to summoner

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There is promisses of nerfs to AL and BP, but in the end they are just widening the gap between ultima and the rest

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And in the end it will be a fluff class that you will be heretic at home with more possibility to apply vulns to ultima

coral pawn
coral pawn
coral pawn
safe wyvern
#

It adds with other pact power %

#

So its 120% from weapon and 50% from helmet right?

#

So its a 2,7x to 3,3x with hydrus

#

It's a 22,222...%

coral pawn
#

It's a 2.2x multiplier from weapons, 1.4x from the helmet and 1.6x from the passive.
They're multiplicative so
2.2x 1.4x 1.6x = 4.9
So 60% are indeed 60%

safe wyvern
#

So its aditive between gems and mult between sources...

coral pawn
#

You got me there.
No gems are multiplicative too.
So for weapons it's
1.2× 1.2x 1.2x 1.2x 1.2x 1.2x = 2.99x
(5 times Eos Arms and a Nekro staff)
Isn't it mathmagician @wispy phoenix

#

However your point was that the Grand Summoner Hydrus passive becomes less effective the more multipliers you stack.
It does not.

safe wyvern
#

I think it is the HP inside the BP formula that gives this impression them

coral pawn
#

Ab so lutely

safe wyvern
#

Anyway, we need better summons than skellys, at Tq0 they can easy be killed and it feels wrong to use a T8 class for damage in a T10 class and counter intuitive

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The passive point was wrong but i think we deserve an at least 10k HP summon to survive a hit

coral pawn
#

I agree that we could use smth that's not an inherited passive of GSH

violet drum
#

hydrus pact be basically like:

dg17er5-3836ae7a-ca19-432d-b0b4-bbfd2d284f62.jpg
#

add some of those guys, and it will be perfect 👌

safe wyvern
#

We need yugioh's anime castle of illusion, cause the enemies dont have gaia, the champion to throw it in the castle's orbital ring it just revived all the summoned monsters destroyed by battle

brisk surge
#

It would tie in very well with using summons life energy to cast also

lethal totem
#

I think HyPa was meant to be a speed upgrade to summoners. Would be cool if it was a pseudo-aoe like AV2 and CS

coral pawn
lethal totem
past jolt
#

testing out right now on a 0 ascenscion character and i know odie said not to compare to blood pact, but im assuming thats because of scaling issues at higher AL's right?

#

at 0 al, blood pact 3 dealt 700k with no passive stacks and hydrus pact dealt 400k at max passive

#

damage seems too low honestly, or im doing something wrong

#

at max passive, blood pact 3 with dragons is hitting for 1.3mil and hydrus pact is hitting for 400k, character is really weak and at 0 AL

coral pawn
lethal totem
#

oh that's right, summons won't follow u in dungeons anymore

coral pawn
coral pawn
#

Btw i figured that Battalions does not go well with HyPa

past jolt
#

i think you had a high AL mirror yes?

safe wyvern
coral pawn
safe wyvern
#

Can we get a mix of PE?
PE4 during first turn and PE2 during pass floors?

#

We can just duplicate the pre change PE4 and change our PE2 to coupled essence xD

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If we are going to get BP changes I not even Know if PE4 can keep the PE2 property of ressumoning each floor

safe wyvern
#

And if we get 2 duplicatable summons they can help with the speed of duplication

plain ledge
#

What's the general consesus about endless? Went myself to the beta, curious about the idea of fafnir+full of ancient drag summons and to my surprise the summons didnt follow me to the next floor. Then i checked and there was no elysian guidelight.

How does this affect endless viability of gsh? Cant find any way to make it work in that content

wispy phoenix
#

its going to be worse than the current gsh for endless for that reason yeah

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I dont think that many people were doing gsh endless tho

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as for the best build, it's probably ultima endless? Bp and hypa wont work as well

coral pawn
#

It's never been as satisfying for me as cruising through floors with summons in full orn gear even tho the GSH setup was much more convenient.

coral pawn
#

GSH Edit 2.5

Post Hydrus Pact adjustments

Overall Feedback

Ppl seemingly accepted the spell as is as there were no suggestions to further change it besides from adding slightly more dmg.
The discussion evolved around Hydrus Pact's environment.
Folks are mostly looking for ways to provide a constant and/or passive stream of summons to fuel the spell.
Some are concerned about how Hydrus Pact compares to the behemoth that is Ultima and fear Ultima will take over once BP is adjusted.
Battalions does not pair well with Hydrus Pact.

Sources
Sustain summons
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message
Power of Ultima
#1219672026160042118 message
Battalions and Hydrus Pact
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message

#

(Repeating) Suggestions

Summon Scarecrow 100% chance
#💡│suggestions message
#1097574048294260878 message
HyPa supporting gear/followers/passive/summons
#1219672026160042118 message

Sidenote

The discussion shifts away from the class and Hydrus Pact to their surroundings like Ultima and seems to come to a conclusion about the spell and eventually the current version of the class.

Original summary post
#1219672026160042118 message
Edit 0.5
#1219672026160042118 message
Edit 1
#1219672026160042118 message
Edit 2
#1219672026160042118 message

past jolt
#

I'm still under the impression that the damage is too low, with 5k magic I deal 400k every two turns using hydrus pact

coral pawn
#

Added it.
However this is more of a balancing concern that can easily be adjusted when tested in a real environment thus live if needed.

past jolt
#

that's true

sinful sluice
sinful sluice
coral pawn
#

Thx @sinful sluice you got your job back❤️

sinful sluice
#

Yippee

#

Thanks for the information conglomeration

coral pawn
pulsar steppe
#

Quick pulse check: how close are we to shippable? if this is still needing significant work, we may need to hold off until next class updates

violet drum
#

idk if this is relevant to others much, I'm not a main GS/A/H. I used GSH as an easy way to do BP(with some investment!) endlesss for: quests( mostly kingdom) and a couple of scrolls. this change ruins this options, q_q, but overall i do think it is better for the class

sinful sluice
#

Personally (and I don't use GSH much, so take this with a grain of salt), this gives GSH a breath of fresh air in terms of gameplay, gives more power in the form of quick dungeon passive buildup, as well as the presence of a pet, which allows it to be competitive with other mages for AoE clearing, and gives it an interesting new niche with the potential of using summoner pets to their full power, combining it with Hydrus pact. It will be in a better shape when the overall quadratic BP scaling gets looked at for SS/BP, as the unhealthy comparisons to such a power level will diminish.
In the end, the only thing that probably still needs adjustment is numbers for Hydrus Pact, but those are likely easier to refine in a public release

#

With the addition of some more supportive gear (such as some piece of equipment that passively summons a skeleton every turn, per example), Hydrus could be in a very unique place that distinguishes it both from other classes and from main summoner; while remaining viable in dungeons and Raids. But again, that is stuff we won't be seeing in beta

past jolt
#

really brief input from me is: current rework of gsh is cool, and id be happy as is if it gets shipped, but i still think it needs more stuff in the future

coral pawn
# pulsar steppe Quick pulse check: how close are we to shippable? if this is still needing signi...

Since the feedback here on this channel dried out i feel that there's not much to be added by the community.

However many ppl are showing their concerns with emotes but aren't actively taking part in the discussion which is sad.
From what i've heard it's mainly about GSH's lowered endless prowess.

Personally i like the variety of options GSH has now and i agree with John that it opens up and could make good use of many (future) gearing options.
Some chinks may require adjustment after the broad community tested it like various dmg numbers or the interaction between Battalions and HyPa but i feel like it has a solid base.

past jolt
#

and i dont wanna repeat myself, im sure some others feel the same

wispy phoenix
#

I still think hypa is underwhelming ngl

#

We really need some input from the people who reacted with a trash emote on this thread

pulsar steppe
#

The focus of this patch was the Old Gods - some classes, such as Hydrus, received some non-primary attention.

If the community feels Hydrus deserves more than non-primary, then we can delay. many ideas here were outside of the scope of this update and would require more attention from the studio

If the changes here are sufficient for now, then it's another story

past jolt
#

i think i can speak on behalf most of the summoner and especially GSH mains, that yes we would like more than a non-primary rework

#

other players were concerned that this feels like a band-aid patch

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i do not entirely agree, but a larger scale rework would certainly be much appreciated

pulsar steppe
#

follower access is far from a bandaid imo

wispy phoenix
#

I'm wondering tho, do we really have to choose between those 2 options only? Is there not a world where current gsh can ship, and then get refined down the line or something (Im assuming summoner classline as a whole might get reworked too at some point)

past jolt
past jolt
coral pawn
#

Like i said, i love the sheer amount of possibilities this GSH has cause more options equal more content to tackle n stuff to gather, means more fun to me
but as ORN i'll get behind the community if they voice their opinion
... anywhere i can reach.

pulsar steppe
past jolt
#

my 2 cents is i would much rather choose a full rework than a "non-primary" one, and im sure a lot of people feel that way

pulsar steppe
#

what does the current iteration lack that a full rework would address?

pine topaz
#

In my opinion it might just be trying a few different types of say new pacts or passives over a few corrections in the beta until we can mostly all agree on something which feels like an upgrade but not too unbalanced, so mabye a lot of trial and error but then in the end most summoners should be happy with the changes

wispy phoenix
#

I would personally still like to see some new interesting pacts, better synergy options with hydrus pact (an improved scarecrow or similar summon, potentailly synergetic gear).

Earlier in this chat I also said I wanted to test PE4 on current beta hydrus, to see if it would address some of the current issues it has. I think it could make BP a more competitive raiding option again (probably roughly on par with an optimized ultima build) and PE4 should be a decent upgrade for pact endless builds, should make it on par with qc ultima or maybe a bit better. I'm personally not a fan of elysian guidelight on gsh just because of how incredibly cheesy it feels to smuggle GSA summons with it, although Im guessing that's where most of the downvotes are coming from

pine topaz
#

I don't mind losing elysium guidelight but only if i can make it more viable to do stuff like endless but with pe2 that doesn't feel likely

past jolt
keen walrus
coral pawn
#

Following a discussion outside of you native language can be a pain i experience myself on a daily basis.

I write summaries that should be possible to translate by anyone with the right tools and some time to spare.
We have a pretty diverse ORN roster so reaching out to an ORN or another engaged member of the community of your language so he can translate those summaries and summarize your feedback to be presented here too could be a good step👍

somber parrot
#

Discord is completely banned in China. So it’s not just language barrier for them.

keen walrus
#

Indeed

unborn timber
#

What service is used in China then?

keen walrus
#

Wechat/ telegram/QQ etc.

coral pawn
#

I'm pretty sure there is a way a text or screenshot will reach this thread.

safe wyvern
#

im kinda late for it XD
but i think the new iteration just needs more summons, IDK if we can get some auto summon gear like Kaine sugested or some new summon (please give grand summon to replica Eos 😜 )
but I enjoyed the new skill, the only problem IMO we need in the future a way to avoid to fall to the trap of a "Heretic at home", i know it's normal for ppl to do i, but for me it just feels wrong to have 3 classes that spams the same to be optimal, but I think with this new alleway we can explore in the future with gear or things like that this new playstyle, maybe using some eos parts that today just gives raw status to us in the celestial IDK, im sure the team will figure things out

distant estuary
#

I'm a beo/gilg player myself and with the way it is set in beta, the new hydrus pact actually synergises with the way I play my beo right now and has actually made me excited to pick up GSH before I even get a celestial class for my Beo. I would love to see this version of GSH brought to live servers even if things need adjusting or reworking later on down the road

#

Feels kind of sad that the community seems to only advocate GSH for AD and then throw it to the wayside, but this seems like actually giving it life

past jolt
distant estuary
#

I've been skimming here and there but I may have missed some things

#

That was more based off what I've been told on live servers

sinful sluice
#

Thread has over 2k messages, it's easy to miss stuff

rocky acorn
#

I use gsh - maji (al30)
Usally for high hp raids and BoF.
(gsa -benef used for pvp def, tower, endless, and farming.
Gs-sequencer used for raids that are susceptible for ultima)

Quick question.
Maybe I missed something, but
as it is now in the beta.
How is it address the long setup?

Adding the follower is a dream and hydrus pact looks like a way to do some damage while charging the passive for a big bp.

But you still need to summon at least 4 AD for bp
Which, even with 2 omega riftlocks, take between 4 to 16 turns (luck based)

Will it be addressed?
Thanks, and sorry if this was answered already 🙂

past jolt
coral pawn
#

...and stated that BPs scaling will likely be tackled in the future.

wispy phoenix
#

then ultima will just continue to reign supreme

sinful sluice
wispy phoenix
#

maybe that is the intention, but we're not there yet

rocky acorn
rocky acorn
#

Thanks!
You guys are champs 🙂

So. As I see it, we don't need to adresss the long setup until the bp change, then we will see if these complainta are still relevant.

Hy.pact should address the ultima dominated playstyle. And give some alternative summoner related playstyle.

Anyway, really excited for this change 🙂

plain niche
#

does summons hp affect hypa?

cunning marlin
plain niche
#

Cool

#

Just mag+, ++ & snotra

#

sadly i dont have any pact+ gear on beta

cunning marlin
#

Although we are still missing a few more things

past jolt
#

the guy was saying its like a power-up to blood pact, and its supposed to be the main spell, not a spell to stack passive

plain niche
#

i was just using lutes

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for mag

rocky acorn
#

Well... I guess we'll see.
I doubt that I can reach the ultima damage output, but I guess It's more of a balance thing then issues with the new mechanism.

Exciting times ahead!

plain niche
#

that actually could make beomonner a thing for me again

safe wyvern
#

I dont think it makes a difference between blood and HyPa in terms of how to use summons, but HyPa lacks scaling, if the HyPa scaling weighted it could be a very useful skill, a swing in the Damage X turn or Summon X turn would be ideal (it could be fixed with gear or news spells in the witch building I forgot the name since summon would gain a gear scaling stuff for ppl that dislike the fact that summoner can deal damage with no gear required and HyPa would become a more fluid gameplay)

safe wyvern
plain niche
#

i like keith more

rocky acorn
rocky acorn
plain niche
#

But beo has acces To the pact bonus gears so it could do wonders

rocky acorn
#

Well! Hope it works!
Non cookie cutter builds are very interesting in this game 🙂

somber parrot
wispy phoenix
#

regarding hypa vs ultima:

4 month old post at this point but the point still holds:

the sheer number of multipliers ultima has.

8285: mag stat
4: ultima m1
2: crit multiplier
1.25: faction bonus
1.1^5: 5 prom hands
1.02^20: 10 achlys souls
1.2: bulwark
1.4^2*1.2^2: 2 40% crit 20% holy amities
1.5^2: elysian balance
1.2: anubis sigil
2.4: drakeblight

result: 4.3M damage, no buffs

a max hypa has 4.5 M1. Then you have gsh 1.6x pact bonus, 1.4x pact helmet, 1.2^5x pact stick and 1.2x nekro. That's still nowhere near the number you can achieve with ultima multipliers, and hypa is even harder to sustain than ultima which has essentially no cost.

this is why I believe that in practice atm in the beta it's ultima > bp > hypa (even without EB). Nefring bp would still not make hypa the best option for gsh (kind of stating the obvious here).

image.png
sinful sluice
somber parrot
past jolt
#

It's under settings

sinful sluice
past jolt
#

Damn discord mobile UI sucks lmao

sinful sluice
wispy phoenix
somber parrot
#

Ok

sinful sluice
#

The biggest gap is likely the amities

somber parrot
#

But it's too long.

sinful sluice
sinful sluice
#

Noncrit does open the possibility of not having pinions/wyrms, which is an added bonus if the base makes up for it

wispy phoenix
#

ngl the pact amities are a bit of a joke rn

#

5% bonus, are you kidding me?

sinful sluice
#

The optimal strength of HyPa would be approximately the power of a boosted ultima, in one turn, but with the downside of having to resummon the next turn

#

And then give the opportunity for gearing and pets to fix the resummon downside

#

Then again, Ultima is 2 turns

#

If you want to consider lung'd ultima, you need to drop the prom hands

#

Which loses you a lot of crit and power

#

Getting those 40% crit from other places in gear will hurt your stats, too. Including mag

wispy phoenix
#

true, but lungs do ahve some mag

#

and faster dc is a nice benefit too

sinful sluice
#

So I suppose the optimal power of a HyPa should be slightly higher than that of a Lung'd Ultima

#

So that when given the gearing options to sacrifice gear power for consistent summons, if that ever happens, it becomes similar in power

wispy phoenix
#

how would we even define a boosted ultima? In theory someone could have 40% crit, 2x30% element amities mimic

somber parrot
#

Have you try anguish horde?

#

It's impossible now

sinful sluice
#

Was it possible before..?

wispy phoenix
#

ngl I've always used gsa for that

sinful sluice
#

Because amities, while not contributing to HyPa power, will contribute to player power

#

Be it damage at full hp, ward regen, mana regen, etc

#

If you just counted them in, then HyPa would be strictly better than ultima since they'd have free amity slots

somber parrot
sinful sluice
#

With what?

#

As an AL80, it never crossed my mind to try hydrus horde anguish

somber parrot
#

But with GSA summons.

sinful sluice
#

..

#

What's the point then?

#

You're clearing with GSA at that point

somber parrot
#

It's can't do anguish with any methods.

sinful sluice
#

Hydrus is there for moral support

#

Not all classes have to be able to do all things - even less so celestials

#

Hydrus does non anguish dungeons much better than the other two summoners now

#

Like, SO much better

somber parrot
#

So its just change GSH to raid class.

#

No other benefit.

#

Other class like beo can do all.

wispy phoenix
#

benefits:
better non anguish dungeons with aoe build imo
better live pvp
better raiding than current gsh

downsides:
worse endless
worse anguish dungeon
(anything else that involves snapshotting gsa summons)

somber parrot
#

Anything Beo can do better.

sinful sluice
#

Oh yeah, GSH duo raiding is going to be INSANE after this rework

wispy phoenix
#

I do think it addresses some of the main weaknesses gs had. Gs could never carry party dungeons but now it can. Gs was also bad at live pvp but now it might be a bit better

sinful sluice
#

Pretty sure 3-turn morri OHKO is not only possible, but easy

somber parrot
#

You can't without cap break.

sinful sluice
sinful sluice
#

2 damage cap augments and a doublecast will do it.
Or 1 damage cap augment and a damage cap amity or a damage at full hp amity

somber parrot
#

And GSH have to spend many turns setting up for dmg.

#

It's impossible to do in 3 turns

sinful sluice
somber parrot
#

Duo raiding god is GSA+ Mage.

wispy phoenix
sinful sluice
#

That, but add a mimic pet with GMM gear

somber parrot
#

With mage cap break, why need another GSH?

#

Better mag.

sinful sluice
#

Mage can't wear pact hat, doesn't have innate pact passive

wispy phoenix
#

gsh still has 1.6x pact bonus and 1.4x pact helmet which heretic cant use

sinful sluice
#

Anyhow, I feel like it's also important to ask

somber parrot
#

Mage+GS without ALs can do this. GSH don't even have cap break.

Screenshot_2023-09-19-16-27-52-58_965bbf4d18d205f782c6b8409c5773a4.jpg
sinful sluice
#

What would you like to see out of GSH

somber parrot
#

And you are 100 AL. Any mage with that high don't need duo play to do yhe dmg.

#

So raid is not good after the change now.

#

Than what GSH can do?

#

Or just play back to GSA or consider HoC.

sinful sluice
#

Keep in mind that you keep picking the examples of other classes that do it best.
Compare current GSH to beta GSH in duo raids, and you will find that beta GSH is, at the very least, twice as good as it was before

#

In solo raids, it's literally just about adjusting HyPa numbers

#

Not that complicated

somber parrot
#

Giving up too many things.

sinful sluice
#

And it has already been discussed

wispy phoenix
sinful sluice
#

I understand your concerns, but you also need to understand that this here has been a proccess that has gone back and forth between the people discussing here and the NF team - and not having been here both means that your voice was not heard during the proccess, and that you didn't hear others' voices as well

#

Feel free to voice your concerns, and we'll note them down, but unless you also come up with proposed solutions, all you're saying is "this is bad", which is not constructive and doesn't help anyone, here nor at NF

plain niche
pulsar steppe
#

re: Ultima - I think we do need to remember that Ultima II is the final spell of the game and is unlocked at 250. Hydrus Pact is not something that we'll be using to outclass it - GSH is not to be an entity that power creeps ultima.

That said, base damage of ultima (non-crit, non-elemental boosted) can be used as a goto baseline. it's something already achievable and introduces a source of player damage that does not outclass other game's offerings

tldr: if they argument is "why use this over Ultima", you may not be looking at the T10 population as a whole, and may be past the point where a celestial class offering can improve your build

Ultimately, we want to know:

  1. is GSH in this form introducing a new playstyle that players would enjoy playing?
  2. is the output of pacts enough damage to consume content at a pace comparable to Auriga?
wispy phoenix
#
  1. I would say so yes, but I don't think HyPa will be effective in the majority of the game's content. I think it's only going to be useful in raids and pvp. This is one of the reasons it would've been nice to have aoe pacts in my opinion, just because a very large portion of the game is horde content at the moment. Of course ara vesta or chained shield could work too instead, but then it's a different playstyle.
  2. Depends on the content in my opinion. If you're trying to do horde or endless with pacts the answer would be no, but in raids and pvp pacts are probably better.
pine topaz
#
  1. yes but a significant amount of effort and gear is needed and hydrus pact wont be enough to entice new gsh players over the traditional bp big hit damage, as people would rather get damage and not lose summons over losing 3 in most situations (not all i do acknowledge it has its uses). In my opinion would still need paired essence 4 to be more enticing.
  2. Absolutely not. I only ever use hydrus now as a backup. I always use gsa for things its a lot bulkier and can provide safer dungeons towers pvp. The only thing hydrus has its mabye raiding (and pvp but you're a one hit wonder you either kill or die). However in regards to raiding, after forming your perfect auriga build that can be transferred over to beowulf (or beo auriga but for the sake of the argument pretend we dont have it) and you can do raiding safely with some of the high damage output pets without the risks involved with hydrus. I only really ever use it in cases where spiritgarm are useless e.g. sphinx and murk. Pact damage is all well and good but balancing with can i live one hit isnt a fun way to play. Id rather see mabye a detraction from pact damage but it scales further with acension and buffing the base stats then in a weigh up i would choose it over auriga, but on top i would need an aoe pact for horde.
somber parrot
#

Our (two) community had some discussions, I sorted them out and posted them here. You only need to look at the first two.

coral pawn
somber parrot
#

Can't use warrior equipment.

coral pawn
#

Aengus Og Lute

somber parrot
#

Then why gsh

#

Normal or GSA better

image.png
coral pawn
#

Higher stats + Hydrus passive, you can tank hits at Ang50

wispy phoenix
#

what are the solutions you'd propose for the problems yu describe though?

somber parrot
#

#1219672026160042118 message

wispy phoenix
#

oh missed the improve part

somber parrot
#

They are still discussing.

#

But it's my conclusion now.

pulsar steppe
wispy phoenix
pine topaz
#

I meant that bp drains health but the summons are still there for a good few pacts but hydrus gets rid of them so im more vulnerable

pine topaz
coral pawn
# pulsar steppe re: Ultima - I think we do need to remember that Ultima II is the final spell of...
  1. It certainly is a unique class now having access to followers and summons opening up many possibilities. The style mostly remains the same, buff up and use your dmg spell. We 'gain' content like horde dungeons, CS content (towers, horde anguish) and 'lose' content like endless. HyPa in it's current form adds the necessity to restock on summons and with the tools currently available i'm afraid it may seen as inferior to more convenient ways of dealing dmg.

Tldr:

  • Summoner with follower is great
  • Styles stay the same, some content better, some worse
  • HyPa inconvenient
  1. Pacts are kinda limited to raids, PvP/AI and normal dungeons so content where they've been strong before. They do outpace Auriga at said content but are way less valuable at anything else.
latent pumice
#

I dont doubt the change will improve raiding ability of summoners, but personally i think this just make GSH a niche endless class into a raiding celestial class, while overlapping with the use of base GS, and thus i would consider the change a nerf since GSH in endless is completely ruined.

sinful sluice
#

I still don't see it as a nerf to GSH endless, because that was never GSH's power. It was borrowed power from the other GS variants. You'd summon with them, and then put on a GSH disguise.

#

If you were doing GSH endless before, you can still do it, you just skip the last step of switching to GSH

somber parrot
#

Try in beta? Very useless in endless now. No build suitable. And you can't summon every floor. Dangerous and slow.

sinful sluice
#

I know it doesn't work well currently in beta. I'm just saying it didn't work on live either, if you're not relying on borrowed power from the other summoners

somber parrot
#

You can't even tank dmg

sinful sluice
#

Currently in beta it's similar to endless with heretic, minus the second chance

somber parrot
#

Without enough passive boost, No heretic mag

somber parrot
#

That's why beither

#

They copy themselves.

#

For only 150000

#

But still enough

#

I don't use GSA to summon. All GSH.

#

Totally bp build.

sinful sluice
sinful sluice
somber parrot
#

Because it's too deep.

#

I don't want that to be an example.

sinful sluice
#

Lmao okay

#

Anyway, how do you get your beithirs to replicate in the dungeon?

#

They take 3 floors to replicate

somber parrot
#

Sleep enemy

#

And not all copy, I heal them.

sinful sluice
#

Alright, that checks out I suppose

somber parrot
#

Combined with some changes now, it's may be a interesting and playable class.

sinful sluice
# somber parrot Aoe pact: Aoe for only GSH Preferred weapon: some boost for pact Bring low dmg s...

Odie has already voiced his dislike for the ALs affecting summon HP - hydrus is not meant to increase summon power in any way, plus BP's quadratic scaling will be dealt with at a later date.

We have talked about the possibility of an AoE Pact before, but horde dungeons isn't necessarily where hydrus struggles.

Bringing summons floor to floor is problematic, but if they're disabled that could work, it's something that wasn't explored.

Preferred weapon was also not mentioned. I'm not sure they really need it, since you can get staff preferred weapon from picking sequencer, but thematically hydrus could have a preferred weapon

#

TL;DR

AoE pact: Maybe, not likely
Preferred weapon: Maybe
Bring no dmg summon: Maybe
ALs affect summons: No

#

Oh, and fyi, if hydrus brings summons with it on floors, it becomes a worse Horde class

#

Because not bringing summons charges its passive

#

Which makes it pretty good at clearing hordes

somber parrot
#

Ok, just my opinion. How to do it is decided by NF.

sinful sluice
#

Of course, of course. Same goes for me

somber parrot
#

I still think bring summons is better, and there's a pact to kill all summons.

sinful sluice
#

People didn't like that iteration, because setting up for clearing horde dungeons was taking much longer than for all other classes

somber parrot
#

Can deal with much situation.

sinful sluice
#

People with red/blueline passives just had to wait a bit

#

We had to actively spend turns on turning passive on

sinful sluice
# somber parrot

In fact, people can still do this in Live GSH.
But they'd rather just do horde on a different class

coral pawn
sinful sluice
coral pawn
#

And did not resonate that much

coral pawn
#

For me important especially is if the points mentioned here were met
#1179718548185157652 message
Beta GSH

  • has an edge over base GS in terms of versatility due to having a follower
  • very fluent passive setup in dungeons
  • in raids HyPa does benefit passive setup but is inconvenient to maintain
  • GSH has it's own individual setup however after the setup it plays similar to other classes

So all in all imo all points were met except the post setup individuality.

wispy phoenix
#

yeah, but I think that's true for most classes in the game at the moment. Ultima and cs (and I guess MD for horde) are just so dominant that there's not much room for individual class variety

coral pawn
#

When rereading everthing after the latest update most concerns boil down to

  • HyPa being inconvenient to maintain
  • GSH endless taking a huge hit
  • the question if follower + HyPa + fluent dungeon setup is enough or are ppl looking for smth deeper later down the line e.g. the souls system
safe wyvern
#

Idk if that is possible since the rework was madez is there a way to flag the summons as Hydrus or not?

#

So hydrus can have a Hydrus Elisian Guidelight?

#

I dare to say Hydrus with HyPa needs it more than other summoners

coral pawn
pine topaz
#

When i was doing speedruns for endless i managed to get to floor 200 quite comfortably with 2 summons up no swapping to Auriga however there were some near misses where the damage from bp wasn't quite good enough, but if we do change to 1 summon doing gsh only runs isn't likely to be viable even with a pet if we drop to 1 summon, thus endless i feel is the biggest issue. Hydrus pact was a step in the right direction but i do think it needs to be tabled for the future otherwise a change could be implemented and it could put people of hydrus and thats the last thing we want.

sinful sluice
thorn rapids
#

What about the possibility of a passive that makes an extra summon? if they're not coming floor to floor and you're sacrificing them anyways what if there was a passive that made single summon spells summon a second monster

latent pumice
#

eh just keep the guidelight

#

without that it still performs terribly in endless or even nornal horde tho

#

perhaps worst among all classes

#

due to the lack of stats and battle passives, unless you are spending an extra turn summoning things every floor

past jolt
#

I saw a hydrus only floor 1600

plain niche
plain niche
past jolt
#

yeah horde is like the biggest improvement it got lol

#

Closing thoughts are that in practice I feel like these changes are really cool and I personally love them, with a few that could use adjustment(hydrus pact mainly), so honestly I wouldn't mind them hitting live, Although I would appreciate more unique stuff added, be it new reworked pacts(seriously some of the pacts are so useless), summons or mechanics uniquely tied to hydrus.

rocky acorn
past jolt
#

Status effects ofc, that's how late endless is for every class basically

#

Ofc that's with hit Als and everything but yeah current hydrus does have endless capability, although I do think that honestly endless is so broken that maybe it shouldn't even be a balance concern

latent pumice
#

people are saying hydrus endless is so broken while what they dont know is that all you are missing is the correct technique

#

do note that there are people reaching post 1k floors as under 40AL GS

#

my suggestion is you can always try to do it and see the difficulty, and then judge whether its OP or not

past jolt
#

It being difficult doesn't mean it's not op

safe wyvern
#

The snapshot is the OP part, the problem with the rework, it is hard to think on something to make it feels good taking off the Snapshot capability, and with HyPa we dont have a high enough influx of summons.

#

We should just get Deity ready and Heretic new passive, and GS needs a Overall imo

#

We had summoner problems since its inception because of BP

low fiber
#

thats crazy 😮

coral pawn
#

Yes but it takes hours and patience to pull off and personally i don't see any reason to dedicate half a day or more to endlessing besides flexing ofc if one or two 600+ floor dungeons in full orn gear and boosters already net you billions of orns and exp

rocky acorn
somber parrot
#

Remove your Unfell, prepare a 23 hour endless. Slowly push.

low fiber
latent pumice
#

just personally speaking, the reason i disliked the rework is that although originally GSH is not a very good celestial class, it at least has its own niche use(endless). The update, however, is making it mediocre in all aspects. I appreciate all the ideas proposed during the discussion but ig maybe its just better to add a new celestial class instead of killing the old GSH.

pulsar steppe
#

Is a single use case (endless) worth holding back an update to the class? Have we been actively exploring followers synergies, bestial bonds, etc?

Perhaps we’re trying to hold on to endless a little too much?

cunning marlin
#

For me it is mostly the raiding part

#

I mean, getting a follower is nice

#

But the rest is kinda meh

#

Losing Battalions 2…

#

But I still haven’t unlocked Ultima, and when I start raiding with it I’ll probably stop using the class at all

somber parrot
#

Normal GS is better for Ultima.

cunning marlin
#

Doing gauntlets with GSA is safer, and even with no AL on my Beo, using Fey Cactus will probably still be faster than using GSH

cunning marlin
#

I’ll stop using GSH because I’ll use base GS with Ultima

cunning marlin
coral pawn
#

The endless faction aside there's been many buts regarding this GSH version.

  • 'I like HyPa but it's hard to maintain'
  • 'I like this version but i'm getting hit too often'
  • 'I like followers but i need PE4 in my life'
    etc

However most of these buts can and i think will be payed attention when it hits live since their mostly numbers games.
In the end it's still on a positive note with some buts.

So what do we need here to make a descission? A poll? Ship or skip?

#

My vote goes to ✅ cuz i rly like this version. My buts go to Steadfast instead of Battalions and HyPa supplementing gear/summons in the future.

cunning marlin
coral pawn
#

Yes.
Battalions 1 isn't reliable at all even with 5 summons so you will get hit.
Also Battalions doesn't pair well with HyPa and the Hydrus passive.

cunning marlin
#

Why isn’t it supposed to pair well with those two?

coral pawn
#

HyPa kills your summons that are meant to protect you so Battalions is less effective.
For the Hydrus passive you need to get rid of your summons that are meant to protect you making Battalions less effective during the setup.

cunning marlin
#

I get it with HyPa

#

But in long raids, Battalions is really useful

#

Since you are going to have 5 summons again, after charging the passive

#

From a raiding perspective, which is what I at least use GSH for

#

Even if Battalions 1 doesn’t do that much

coral pawn
#

Well during my beta testings i got hit way too often in raids so i had to play like a hit is certain.
If i have to play like this i'd personally rather have a passive helping me take a hit than a coinflip.

cunning marlin
#

Steadfast is just for status effects though

#

Not for tanking a raid ultimate or a decent hit

#

So don’t really see how it could be that useful there

#

Replacing Battalions for the survivability part

coral pawn
#

Oh GSH with its beta stats and a stacked passive can take hits fairly well.
It's the statusses during the setup or resulting consecutive hits that made it ugly for me.

cunning marlin
#

You tested it with low AL?

#

Or only with your mirror?

coral pawn
#

Only with the mirror.
I had way more trouble beating a fey chimera with AL80 due to it statussing me to death than on live.

cunning marlin
#

I still have to test it

#

But with low AL, getting hit is probably more scary than status effects

#

Plus you can always place immunities in the accessory slots

#

But for the getting hit issue, you only have the legs and torso slots, if you don’t want to have your damage reduced by quite a bit

#

And it won’t be enough most of the time

cunning marlin
safe wyvern
cunning marlin
#

And for tankiness you only have the torso and legs slots as I mentioned before

#

And you are still pretty fragile

coral pawn
#

Menja's and FSS aren't halfbad statwise.
Also AI is still targetting summons on the field without Battalions.

#

And SF will be most benefitial in dungeon setups due to only PE2 and not Guildelight.
But that's just my personal opinion.

safe wyvern
#

yeah... especially vs some BS things that loves to use miasma, 11 out of 10 times they hit you and you get both

latent pumice
sinful sluice
coral pawn
#

Delicious👀

lament panther
#

for some input, if we decide to launch gsh like this, a full rework will not be likely, meaning this is the new gsh playstyle for better or for worse. now here is the question, is gsh in beta fun rn

past jolt
#

If shipping this means gsh wont get a larger scale rework in the future, I think it's a delay angle

#

if what kaine said is true though, that it will get monitored even after hitting live, I'm fine with shipping

coral pawn
wispy phoenix
#

I dont know but when I think of refinement I think of tweaking numbers

#

I still think gsh needs something more, new pacts and/or something with the soul system

past jolt
#

yeah NGL a couple new summons and pacts are literally all we need

#

But they need to actually fill a niche, not be filler like 90% of recent event summons

#

In fact maybe the team can look at reworking past event summons, since some of them are so cool in theory but useless(or suboptimal) in practice

coral pawn
warm oasis
#

90% of summoned beasts are garbage

#

real

lament panther
coral pawn
#

You're absolutely fine with old builds

#

In fact you simply have more options than before. Nothing is lost gear/buildwise.

lament panther
#

except for endless

coral pawn
#

But please go ahead, play the beta and build your own opinion🙂

coral pawn
lament panther
#

well if a build loses it's use, it has the same effect as it not working

past jolt
#

Endless is an outlier and is in fact so broken mechanically I don't think it should be considered

latent pumice
#

there will be trim and cut around the shipped GSH

#

but unlikely to have large scale changes

past jolt
#

thats my concern too

latent pumice
sinful sluice
#

Might as well pin it if there's chatter anyhow

wispy phoenix
sinful sluice
#

I am suddenly not surprised it was hard to reach a coherent opinion

mint sluice
#

If gsh is going to be more classic offense and defense, maybe it can have better base stats. Currently they look very low.
It's not looking good compared to heretic for example (especially mag and ward).
If i get it correctly, you'll not be hidden behind meat walls anymore so you'll need other ways to defend. And mag being 600 less is self explanatory. (could use some dex too)

WLRN5eQ.png
past jolt
#

it is getting increased defensive stats

#

not by a lot but still appreciated

sinful sluice
#

This is the GS/GSH difference

Screenshot_20240503_103601_Orna_BETA.jpg
safe wyvern
#

I think it is still undercooked, if you look to T8 Gran attuner and GSH today you need to read the fine print to locate the upgrade, all T8 compared to All other T10 you can see the class progression, it still needs something

#

We trade elisian guidelight and Batallion II for more pact damage and a scale to dead summons comparing to a T8 class.....

sinful sluice
#

Should be (?)

#

Though that mag looks weird

mint sluice
#

looks better (with some selene hands potential) but that's still very low imo

sinful sluice
#

Anyhow, reminder that once hydrus' passive is on, it's always on at full power

#

Versus Iconoclast that juggles around in efficiency

#

(And dies instantly if you panacea)

wispy phoenix
sinful sluice
#

Health is a defensive stat. Arguably the most important one

coral pawn
coral pawn
#

Thus towers and Anguish horde become manageable as GSH

mint sluice
#

Previous screen was with BoF this is with tamer (stat neutral)

Screenshot_2024-05-03-11-42-38-954_orna.com.ornatest.jpg
#

And this is compared to omnimancer.

Screenshot_2024-05-03-11-45-05-831_orna.com.ornatest.jpg
#

I get that GS have less stats but less than a T9 looks a bit too less

safe wyvern
# coral pawn And a follower

The main thing to the update was to give a new playstyle and this beta we searchee for a way to fix the problem of the class with gear, and after HyPa was introduced it just gave us a new problem

sinful sluice
#

Omnimancer does not have a stat passive

safe wyvern
#

Without ultima BP is still better and more confortable and the only thing said is that we will get a nerf to BP

sinful sluice
past jolt
#

It is playable now and that's why I would be fine with shipping it, but there is so much potential for cooler stuff hydrus could get with it's concept that we would be locked out of if it releases as is I feel like

mint sluice
# sinful sluice Also that's just less mana and mag, the rest is higher

ok but omni still has school of avalon, and it's T9. GSH has weak summons and cycle them frequently so you can assume that he'll tank a lot more than regular GS, that's why I think it should have more stats overall (like a GS that gave up on its summon and saying "fine, I'll do it myself").

sinful sluice
#

Personally, moreso than playable, giving it a proper identity was also a major point

safe wyvern
#

The today point of GSH is
Endless - nerfed (justified)
Raid - "buffed" but with only 1 summon and you get a free buff with follower
Horde - nerfed

Literally everything except raid is just " use GS or GSA" they will end the fight before and using ward of ortanite

past jolt
sinful sluice
past jolt
#

Yeah horde is like the biggest buff lol

wispy phoenix
#

only non anguish horde

#

anguish horde is still nerfed

safe wyvern
#

Idk at hogh end Im with like 40 AL and doesnt feel

#

If you need 100 AL to feel good we have another problem

sinful sluice
# past jolt What is it's identity now compared to before?

The ultimate quantity over quality, raising and immediately killing cheap fodder to increase its own stats and deal damage doing so.

The loop was present in Live, but much more painful to successfully pull off - so the main identity is just "big pact"

past jolt
#

Your setup might be bad idk, non anguish horde is not bad with new hydrus cause you get deific/greater meditation uptime with follower

past jolt
sinful sluice
safe wyvern
#

Then you will be playing as a knockoff heretic, is this the new identity desired?

past jolt
#

Hydrus already had the stacking passive so you could say we had the quantity over quality aspect before, we only got hypa now and I don't think that's enough to solidify it as it's identity idk

sinful sluice
past jolt
#

And I agree and think it's a really cool concept, I just want to lean more into it

sinful sluice
past jolt
wispy phoenix
#

although for me, the power of the class is not the main concern. I just want a better identity, and I think that's not going to happen if it ships now. Imo it's still crazy that hydrus claims to be a pact class while it barely has any new pacts. Even what we got so far, HyPa, needs to be fleshed out a lot more in my opinion, atm it's just cumbersome to use because of how difficult it is to maintain it. If you have to use a follower to maintain it, then you're also giving up a lot of damage that you could have got if you went with phoenix of tmm

sinful sluice
past jolt
#

I meant the stacking the passive part is exactly the same

sinful sluice
#

Ah right

mint sluice
past jolt
#

And I'm more in the camp that the soul stacking passive and quantity over quality is a really cool concept, not to mention hydrus has buffed pacts and we barely have variety in that, I feel like the follower is just there to boost the numbers honestly

sinful sluice
#

It's slightly different since you can deal damage while stacking it, similar to other classes that setup while damaging (gilga, heretic), as opposed to currently having to sac pact your board.
But in essence the time to setup is the same yes.

past jolt
#

So I'm not really talking about it when I talk about identity

wispy phoenix
#

yeha, but in practice eos still falls short. Atm you have to use summon dead a lot to maintain HyPa. Not sure if scarecrow works with hypa now, but it was never consistent at summoning copies of itself

past jolt
safe wyvern
#

And self replicate summons are uncontrolable, they can just attack and not self replicate even if the problem if they not counting was fixed

past jolt
#

Unless you are raiding with hydrus pact only but that feels so inefficient

wispy phoenix
mint sluice
#

would it be too strong to have X coins summoned (a summon with no attack and low health) at every end of turn ? so you can use them next turn with the need to rely on pet luck or only attacking every other turn ?

safe wyvern
wispy phoenix
#

in practice hydrus is just another ultima class

past jolt
#

I mean in practice everyone is an Ultima class

#

Or a spiked shield class

#

So you can just put that aside for discussions sake

safe wyvern
#

So we cant ask for a non ultima optuon that we dont have a hopper to play?

sinful sluice
#

The non ultima option is supposed to be HyPa with better numbers

safe wyvern
#

And a better way to summon

past jolt
safe wyvern
#

It is a cannon that can have its cannomball killed

#

Because they dont have 1k hp

past jolt
#

I mean summon dead does the job technically but it feels so cringe having to use a low tier summon

safe wyvern
#

Imagine casting ultima and a single AoE make you deal 0 damage

wispy phoenix
safe wyvern
#

"FUN"

past jolt
mint sluice
#

when a summon dies, it leaves behind its soul to be used for pacts.

sinful sluice
past jolt
#

Depends on your AL

#

I'm pretty low, so for me it's pretty good ngl

sinful sluice
#

Not sure what the crossover point is

wispy phoenix
#

atm the meta is looking like this:
raid: ultima
endless: qc ultima
horde dungeons: mage's dance
pvp offense: either bp or qc ultima
live pvp: I guess bp?

it's almost like a heretic copy if it's put like that

past jolt
#

you can say the same thing for literally all classes

sinful sluice
#

Replace bp with ss and yeah

past jolt
#

Yeah

safe wyvern
#

This is not an excuse

wispy phoenix
#

here's the thing, with PE4 bp was actually competitive with ultima in raiding and endless to some extent (qc ultima would be rouhgly as strong as a bp2)

#

and current gsh can use bp in endless

safe wyvern
#

So we can skip this update with GSH

#

It is the same thing today guys

#

The difference is that you have the QoL of seeing your passive

past jolt
#

No what

#

You have a goddamn follower that's like a 50% boost for so much stuff lol

#

Pies talking from his 100al perspective

safe wyvern
#

So for you the update is just the follower

sinful sluice
#

I'm okay with gsh losing its endless prowess exclusively because the other variants do that better. That being said, it does need to improve on others' strengthd as well

past jolt
safe wyvern
#

We nerfed hydrus for a follower to make it more like all the other classes

past jolt
#

I mean do you want it to keep everything it had and get a follower

safe wyvern
#

We need a better rework

sinful sluice
#

Plus HyPa

#

The only nerf hydrus got was the loss of guidelight but that's a necessity

wispy phoenix
#

ngl if this is what we get Ima be disappointed

#

because of the massive waste of potential

safe wyvern
sinful sluice
#

If people want guidelight back, the pet has to go

past jolt
sinful sluice
#

Or the summons have to somehow be turned off

past jolt
#

Personally the pet will be an absolutely crazy increase in raid and dungeon clear speed for me

safe wyvern
#

If the guidelight is back it is a stright need

past jolt
#

I just want a more unique buff, not just getting a follower

safe wyvern
past jolt
#

It is a mage

safe wyvern
#

We should advocate for it NOT TO BE A MAGE

wispy phoenix
#

I don't necessarily care about guidelight tbh. I think PE4 would be enough already to make bp on par with ultima in raiding, and competitive with qc ultima in endless

safe wyvern
#

Not just another mage

past jolt
safe wyvern
#

Variety???

past jolt
#

The point of hydrus is that it's supposed to be more player damage oriented

#

What do you want that player damage to be? Physical?

safe wyvern
#

Play heretic or deity then

#

Have more status and more mechanics

past jolt
#

i want more mechanics for hydrus that's literally what I'm saying all this time

mint sluice
#

Soul binder : your dead summons leave their soul behind. Additionally, you summon 2 souls at the end of your turn.

This + the pet looks to cover the concerns about filling the board to use HyPa no ?

past jolt
#

I'm just pointing out how the somewhat lazy addition of a follower is still an insane buff and you can't say it isnt

wispy phoenix
#

true

safe wyvern
#

It isnt and thats why is a downgrade for me

past jolt
#

tell me how it isnt

safe wyvern
#

We more away from summoner to become a better mage

#

Not a better hydrus

past jolt
#

What's a "hydrus"

#

Gsa is summon focused, gsh is player focused

safe wyvern
#

Pacts?

#

It has a pact passive

past jolt
#

Pets are an insane buff to pact raiding

wispy phoenix
safe wyvern
#

It has a stacking buff with summons death that pacts can do

somber parrot
#

GSH pact focus, don't make another mage. QC Ultima? No

past jolt
safe wyvern
#

You kust took off the pact part to kill summon and added a follower

#

So ppl that dont use pacts have a buff

past jolt
#

They give you a basically permanent 100% damage increase how is that a nerf to pact raiding

mint sluice
sinful sluice
#

1 skeleton alive?
-1 skeleton -2 souls

past jolt
#

The discussion is derailing into theoretical suggestions like it always does boys, and we have so much cool ideas we proposed but it's so unrealistic for odie to add them

latent pumice
#

One idea is to have a battle passive that charges everytime you use pact

wispy phoenix
#

this particular suggestion doesnt seem hard to implement at all

sinful sluice
#

The current discussion is Ship or Shipn't

#

But people can just vote

#

You're not changing anyone's mind here

#

And considering the vote seems to be leaning towards Shipn't

mint sluice
sinful sluice
#

Might as well discuss the following steps

past jolt
#

fair enough it's just that in prior betas it doesn't lead to any action

sinful sluice
#

Ultimately the direction of Hydrus is in NF's hands

#

People just want it in the oven for longer

wispy phoenix
#

a delayed gsh is eventually good, a rushed gsh is bad forever

past jolt
#

I just want some quirky fun mechanics bro D :

somber parrot
#

GSH now: bring summons, Blood pact deal dmg, Life pact reload, rhada pact +provoke extend defend, Charon pact replace summons and recharge passive. Yes, it's a Summoner, battle with summons, use pact.
GSH beta: I'm a Mage.

#

Not funny at all.

past jolt
somber parrot
#

Than you can try.

past jolt
#

I stack up passive at the start with achlys pact and summons, and the spam blood pact with ancient dragons

#

Don't use provoke and Charon at all

sinful sluice
#

Neither person's way to play Hydrus is correct - playing the game is subjective

past jolt
#

And in the beta, I do the exact same thing I do now, but I have deific channel/greater meditation passively

#

I don't play it like a mage in raids atleast

sinful sluice
#

It's only fair that some people are happier than others with a change in a class; if that class is played in different ways

past jolt
#

Oh you mean endless?

somber parrot
#

Yes

safe wyvern
wispy phoenix
safe wyvern
#

You have weaved elements or limit breaks that makes you stronger with other mages

sinful sluice
past jolt
safe wyvern
#

GSH in beta is a flavoured mage that have a summon per floor

warm oasis
#

If fair means making GHS unplayable, then you're right

safe wyvern
#

We need something better

safe wyvern
somber parrot
#

Savant syndrome turns into a jack of all trades.

safe wyvern
#

So they can focus on GS and not on 3 classes at the same time

sinful sluice
latent pumice
#

"flavoured", i dont think so tbh

safe wyvern
#

We got the shot end of the stick

wispy phoenix
latent pumice
#

given that how weak GSH summons are

sinful sluice
#

Though, again, Hydrus is not in our hands - it's in NFs'

latent pumice
#

they are just bullet supply for pacts

sinful sluice
#

We can suggest all we want, if they don't like the idea, it doesn't happen

safe wyvern
coral pawn
#

Post Poll Discussion

Overall Feedback

The beta version needs further adjustments and additions to work properly.
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message

Ppl wish for a unique mechanic e.g. a fleshed out 'souls system' as current beta GSH leans towards a 'standart' mage playstyle.
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message

Some are concerned that when this beta GSH hits live a change to a later date will be unlikely.
#1219672026160042118 message
#1219672026160042118 message

A poll was started asking the community if they're leaning towards releasing beta GSH as is or delaying it.
#1219672026160042118 message

#

@pulsar steppe👆

plain niche
#

i personally like this new hydrus bc it means that more follower+summoner gear/synergies comes in future

sinful sluice
#

Kyle.

brisk surge
#

Regardless of what everyone thinks, it's current state in beta is already far better than what we have now

wispy phoenix
#

That's not a particularly high bar imo

latent pumice
#

far better? more like far worse lol

sinful sluice
safe wyvern
#

If an analogy is fit for the rework right now I think we have a beef that someone still not fliped on the frying pan, one side is well cooked and the other is rather raw or not as well cooked as ppl want it to be since it is just cooked by the heat from the other side

sinful sluice
#

Rare meat enjoyers:

pulsar steppe
safe wyvern
#

And one thing I just realized, T9 and T10 are the same class except for main status and skill

sinful sluice
tacit shoal
#

Small question from an outsider, would it maybe be better to run this on the live beta for a test run to see how it feels with broader participation and live gear?

sinful sluice
#

Oop, sorry, forgot to unreply

#

Some fear that Hydrus won't be getting anything spicier or more flavourful if it launches now, too

pulsar steppe
faint remnant
sinful sluice
#

Overall there's a lot of disagreeing, and it's hard to find one thing that everyone agrees with

#

Some find endless to be irrelevant, others find it to be the most important part.
Some love the idea of pets, others abhor it.
Some prefer this iteration for horde, some say it's worse than before

safe wyvern
#

Just saying hydrus os the only class in game without a upgrade from T9 to T10 passivewyse and T9 from T10 generally is when you get your powercreep and GH is not a good class

sinful sluice
#

It's... been a rough morning

pulsar steppe
pulsar steppe
sinful sluice
#

Perhaps another poll to decide direction lol

brisk surge
#

More of a necromancer feel would definitely separate it from just feeling magey

pulsar steppe
brisk surge
#

Like summons come back to be sacrificed again but can't attack etc

safe wyvern
#

But the nekro style wouldnt mess with mage-y style since they just use 1 passive basically

brisk surge
#

Would give it more of an identity also

#

As a ritualistic sacrificer

#

Whilst also speeding up the passive

sinful sluice
pulsar steppe
limpid walrus
#

The best way to do that imo is make it do something that ultima cant do / or make it better without raising top end damage, surely?

#

Sadly ultima can do everything mighty_mimic

astral cargo
limpid walrus
sinful sluice
#

But my voice doesn't equal the community's

coral pawn
mighty garden
#

Giving my thoughts for what it’s worth.

I don’t think most of the high Als GS care about anything else than mats and orns. If the class isn’t performing better in ang50, tower and endless, it will remain unused imo. Does it need to be even better than the current GS/GSA for these contents? Probably not. The GS classline is already performing super well in endgame.

I can see the potential of this new GSH for horde boss non anguish, but I’m not even sure it will perform better than a 0 al deity.

For raiding, nothing beats GS ultima in most of the cases (Some OR raids and amorri might be exceptions).

As for pvp, this new GSH might be interesting and fun to use, especially in live pvp.

Anyway, it will be definitely fun to have a pet, like the TMM, to complete the meme build.

wispy phoenix
# sinful sluice That's definitely a good chunk of the complaints that have happened here (mostly...

This is currently one of my issues with hydrus pact yes, but that's not the only issue with it. I suppose the damage output can just be fixed by tweaking the numbers. However it's imo still the case that there is not a lot of other synergies to enable hydrus pact. It just feels clunky to constantly have to summon dead > hydrus pact idk.

My other issue is that this is still the only new pact that we got on a class that is supposed to be pact oriented. Partially due to the fact that there is not much pact variety, it just ends up playing a lot like a budget heretic. I would like to see more new pacts and potential a more interesting soul system for this reason.

wispy phoenix
limpid walrus
#

Odie said it's reasonable to expect tweaks for balance.
I would probably agree with the summon dead/hydrus pact clunkiness but the rest feels fun & unique barring tweaks after initial launch

sinful garnet
#

Another point is the uncertainty if GSH is looked into again after the beta patch is going live. Maybe you can take the fear out of that, @pulsar steppe?

ad current changes: Let's deploy the changes and then gradually increase the power output if necessary (instead of the other way round) 👍

safe wyvern
#

I think at least PE 2 to PE4 is the bare minimum to GSH and PE4 working as PS2 today (resummon everything each floor) and work it as it is, it is already taxing min/max but pact would not be as taxed if you are not with high AL/gear

#

The less AL you have the worse is to play this new GSH

#

Qnd if you have high AL the others outshine GSH

#

A summon less affect BP and not ultima spam ans things like that

safe wyvern
#

idk if it is still like this but remember that GSH is the least used Celetial by the last metric we had before all the buffs to RS/Beo/Deity/Heretic that we have now, just wondering in the end how much thrown into the dirt itwill be

granite hornet
#

Been only following this thread||, but I see RS Corvus below it||

safe wyvern
granite hornet
#

Well yes, but your comment was about the last metric before the buffs. According to the metric RS Corvus is the least used.
But I dont want to start any argument here and gonna go back to just reading

pulsar steppe
#

That chart is showing dungeon clearing success rates, not class usage

safe wyvern
#

And all other metric were still subpar except for raiding and ofensive pvp, ofensive pvp usong bp will take a hit and raiding wull keep the same

#

The overall im sure it will go down because of some high al

granite hornet
#

Is there any possibility to ship the Reworks seperatly?
On the one hand GS players are not pressured to come up with some ideas and NF can take it's time to handle all the upcomming concerns.
On the other hand Deity players dont have to wait for GS and dont urge them to make a decision.

unborn gale
pulsar steppe
lament panther
#

food for thought, have we played around with max summon limits?

coral pawn
#

Okay this is my final trumpcard.
I originally intended to reveal it after the beta but it seems to drag out if i don't use it now.
#🎨│game-art-and-memes message

lament panther
#

changing my vote

obtuse dagger
#

HYDRUS WITH A PET. SHIP IT

#

Come on ywll now it needs that pet. <3, more hydrus's in the world! Atm I see literally 0.

#

I would totally go Hydrus woth these changes and use magic abilities with Blood pact emoji_21

pine topaz
#

As now woth pe2 it feels like the only option for horde would be to run mage dance to fast clear, therefore what about giving hydrus an aoe pact. I know it doesn't solve the endless problem however if at least if i can dungeon in a unique way id feel more inclined to accept the change.

somber parrot
#

I’ll accept all change if give the guidelight back.

cold crag
grand steeple
#

what is guidelight？

cold crag
grand steeple
#

endless dungeon

cold crag
#

Yeah, that's most of the discussion.

If GSH has guidelight: summon and buff your summons as GSA, then swap to GSH and keep all of the benefits with none of the drawbacks. It's an especially abusive case of the long-standing snapshotting/re-entry bug for dungeons.

grand steeple
#

gsh just play this.

#

make damage have beo， rs and so on

#

if gsh want to make same damage，need spend more time.

#

even if you have high level.

#

but the update not enhance it.

cold crag
#

Question (for all, please react with all appropriate emotes)

Is the purpose of a GSH rework to give it more power? 📈
Is the purpose of a GSH rework to enable wider gear/follower/skill variety? 🗺️
Is the purpose of a GSH rework to give it a unique flair, or unique identity? 🌠
Is there another purpose? ❓ (please comment with this goal)

.

#

||I had thought from the outset that the answer was pretty clearly 🌠 and secondarily 🗺️, but this has been going on for a long time now (to the point of being a delay) and I'm not sure why it hasn't coalesced into one clear and unified goal.||

grand steeple
#

why not more power？

somber parrot
#

Shouldn't make a Savant syndrome to be a jack of all trades.

cold crag
# grand steeple why not more power？

Personally, it's just not a goal imo.

GSH could gain or lose power, it's of secondary importance. Better to nail down the identity in one pass and then come back again with a balance patch if it needs more power or needs power taken away. 🤷‍♂️

somber parrot
#

Seen my record? I don't even change class. ( But change spec). That's the GSH work now. BP do dmg, life pact reload, provide+ rhada extra defend, sacrifice or charon replace summon.

#

I don't think you play GSH.

warm oasis