#Heretic unique feature?

585 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

blissful roost
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I've seen people who says heretic needs something more unique like other classes, and another ones saying they are "perfect". What are your thougths about this and do you think the class needs something new? I would like to see your opinions

visual pond
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You never know, might be just around the corner!

vestal flare
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For me, the class works. Ara could get some help with it's design. The classeline need some identity passive like every other class. But most of it must be already in the making as there's only deity and heretic left.

agile violet
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Yeah Ara apart from damage cap is pretty useless. My main gripe is that CS is the best way to attempt high anguish, and that heretic is the only class that doesn't have access to a celestial ward regen axe

vivid bone
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Yes, I agree with the point, Heretic base is perfect.

In my opinion, Ara doesn't have much use beyond the damage limit, and I would say that if he had a life siphon it would be more enjoyable to use. But still, Ara wouldn't offer a different gameplay than Heretic Base, I don't need to go beyond the cap in most content, the exception is to take a beautiful print. I think Ara could perhaps be a mix of Heretic + warrior, good giving access to weapons with a good guard percentage.

Heretic Corvus has a good range of possibilities, having access to rogue equipment that is good in statistics and has some ward. I don't really like using him, but he has good combinations and even has a dagger that allows you to accumulate critical, it's a shame it's not celestial.

I would say that the heretic's biggest problem currently is its equipment limitations, for example, for a build with a lot of Mag you will almost always have the same items in the boot and cloak slots, there is just more than one viable option for the head slot , otherwise it's the same as usual, shoes from heaven and the heretic's tunic.
And it bothers me a little that heretic has the best items with no decent physical defense... And the class items that have physical defense have less magic status, and low res.

While Deity, GS and beo are using Heretic items, Heretic can only equip mage items and items that are allowed for all classes, okay that Corvus can equip rogue items, but for me it's still a problem with the other two heretic classes no longer have possibilities

mental granite
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Just to open the discussion slightly wider -- it's not just heretic.
It's the entire mage line that is lacking some identity.

It wasn't only beo that got bestial bonds, it was every valhallan.
It wasn't only realm that got avidity, it was every thief.
It wasn't only gilga that got CD, it was every warrior.
Summoners have summons.
Gods (deity) has some stuff confirmed cooking.

So just something to keep in mind when discussing unique features, identity features. Something that makes sense starting from fairly early on (like, T6) and then continues all the way up and through T10 and its celestials.

vivid bone
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Yes, the pre-T10 classes of the magic line certainly need some attention, I would say that their main “problem” is the spells, the ones we buy from the arcanist are often more useful than those available in the class, speaking of offensive spells.
And looking at this, I would say that we are the class with the most skills to learn.
Personally I don't know if mages need a shared identity for the line, like beo, RS and gilga.
I like that, for example, Omnimancer is the guy with Omnimancy skills, while the necromancer is the guy with spells related to necromancy, I would say that the individuality that each of our classes brings is something more precious than having an identity for the line everything magical.
Let's agree that in terms of possibilities, magic has infinite potential, and perhaps Orna doesn't explore this so well.

 Anyway, I don't know if this assessment is still valid because it's been a while since I went through the early levels using a mage, but I always thought they were good, and most of them have a good combo of passives, and we can easily observe by the name of the class what is your proposal, but if I had to point out some of the problems they would be:

 Lack of mana at the beginning of the game
 Equipment with low magic stats
 Equipment with low guard
 Offensive skills (if they had a different job, or were more useful than the current ones, it would be very good)
agile violet
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Considering how good the shared identity of avidity is I wouldn't decline a newly introduced identity

vivid bone
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I wouldn't be that optimistic that we would get something as good as avidity

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From what I observed, the classes that received a new identity first were precisely the ones that I see have the most dissatisfied players

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I've been playing the magic class for over 2 years and my only dissatisfaction most of the time was equipment and some skills

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Not the class itself, for me they have always worked well, maybe that's why I don't see a NEED for a change in them

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For example, Heretic has a long way to go before he can achieve 1kk damage in 1 hit, and his best skills that do this easier are in prey at level 240. Is that bad? Absolutely not, the walk is very rewarding. And all classes should enjoy progression this good...

But it seems a bit absurd to me that something we will have to fight to have is given to a Beo 225 🤷

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Well... I thought this is another topic, but what I want to point out is that, my feeling is that the studio has balanced the classes by increasing the power of the weaker ones, instead of decreasing the power of the stronger ones, of course they would have to deal with the community's crying, but it seems to me that it would be more accurate

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Following example, Beo having the possibility of taking a pet with the heretic's level 240 skills (which we spent 3 turns to cast) and spamming them takes away a lot of the effort and feeling of "good work" from the long-term investment. term

deft sandal
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I really love omnimancy spells when i was tier 9. I feel the idenity of mage class line can build around exploit enemy weakness elements, also reduce magic resist of enemy or something like that

wind path
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I thought sequencer, blue line, spell turns, and damage cap were heretic things.

twilit rune
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Seq doesn't really count does it? It's not inherent to the mage line, and it requires heretic to give up the option of using any offhand other than staff

deft sandal
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None of those are unique

  • sequencer is a spec that can use by any class
  • blueline is available for Deity
  • spell turns? Wdym on this?
  • Damage cap - locked by tower and available via Augment

Warrior classline has CD, Pet class has valhalla, Thief has Avidity, summoner has summon passive
None of other classes have these => that's unique

vestal flare
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CD was accessible in beta for some days and gilgas almost exploded mimic
So yeah, seeing this, every class line need a passive that bend there playstyle and is completely unique.

wind path
# twilit rune Seq doesn't really count does it? It's not inherent to the mage line, and it req...

that is similar to most classes, however heretic is the only class that benefits from it or the class that mostly benefits from it, plus other classes got normally better choices too

Blue line is not deity because deity stole most things, it also has red line then
Spell turns are reducing turns to cast spells like Ultima although Ultima isn't a Heretic spell it is often used
Damage cap - this shouldn't be a class unique in any way

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if deity gets uniques, then heretic can stick with the rest that already has

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maybe just remove red line from beo auriga so red line is exclusive to RS

twilit rune
# wind path that is similar to most classes, however heretic is the only class that benefits...

that is similar to most classes

It's kind of not. Warriors, thieves, and Valhallan don't have to build a specific way to get collateral damage/avidity/bestial bonds respectively? Those are features they get just by playing the classline. Whereas heretics have to stick to one specialization and have to dualwield staffs to take advantage of seq's quick- and double-casts.

I play staff-and-shield Heretic. Where's my quickcasts? Nowhere :/ I can't get access to those just by playing mage, I would have to give up my shield or my crit chance. Both, if I want to guarantee it.

wind path
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yet sequencer feels like an heretic exclusive

twilit rune
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That's not the point, though?

In the context of classline-unique passives, something is not a "Heretic thing" unless all Heretics have it.

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All beos get bestial bond. All gilgas get collateral damage. All realms get avidity.

wind path
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and they can't get double casts

twilit rune
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So?

wind path
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if a beo hydrus wants double cast he has to give up crit, lute, etc and even then it won't be as good as heretic, because its a staff not a lute

twilit rune
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That's not the point

wind path
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it is my point that heretic has too many things spread that are exclusive to it and other classes can't use it

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it has too many uniques

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and not even all heretics can use them all

twilit rune
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Okay but that's not the point of the thread

wind path
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my point then is that heretic has already blue line and that should be it

twilit rune
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The OP is asking for a feature that all mages can use, like how other classlines have BB, CD, and avidity

wind path
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BB people can use BB1 so BB is not that exclusive

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CC too

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Avidity however

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clearly not all at same level

twilit rune
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Again, beside the point

wind path
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but I would argue that quick casts, double casts etc are as rare as BB1

twilit rune
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Yeah but that doesn't make them analogous

wind path
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I think it does

twilit rune
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Because all valhallans have BB but not all mages have doublecasts

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No it really doesn't

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It's not the same at all

wind path
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that is the problem of heretic it has too many uniques

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remove some, and people would value it more

twilit rune
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Value what, doublecasts?

wind path
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or make them avaiable to all classes

agile violet
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Mages dont have double casts at all

twilit rune
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^^^^^^^^

agile violet
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Mages have as much double casts as gilga

wind path
twilit rune
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Again

I am a staff-and-shield Heretic

My doublecast chance is ZERO

wind path
twilit rune
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Bro

agile violet
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Ultima?

twilit rune
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This is not a discussion about whether every specialization is valuable to every class

wind path
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gilga using ultima is not the same as heretic casting ultima

agile violet
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But it's the same as heretic using CS

twilit rune
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^^like CS

wind path
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but those are fine for those classes why heretic is a issue when it has so many UNIQUE play styles?

agile violet
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If heretic gets sequencer built in then Yes that works

wind path
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how many different heretic viable builds has compared to other classes?

agile violet
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I mean gilga uses mage dance

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Probably the same as every other class

twilit rune
wind path
twilit rune
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This still doesn't change the fact that not all mages get doublecast, so by definition it cannot be a "mage thing"

agile violet
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I've seen an RS uses amadans staff for complete an ang 50 boss horde

wind path
agile violet
wind path
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and you want a unique to buff mage shields style

twilit rune
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I do not want a unique to buff shieldmage.

wind path
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then the other heretics would be unhappy

twilit rune
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No?

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You're still misunderstanding what I'm saying

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Just like how all valhallans get BB
how all warriors get CD
how all thieves get avidity

there should be something that all mages get

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and deities too but that's already in the works

wind path
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by all mages you also mean deity ara?

agile violet
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Why does this always happen with any thread that involves a change to heretic. People just start talking nonsense

twilit rune
agile violet
wind path
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and casting spells isn't what define a mage?

twilit rune
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??????

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bruh

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"using skills is what all mages get, take it or leave it"

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wow, no way??

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we get to use skills?

wind path
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not skills, spells

twilit rune
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Difference being?

wind path
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skills aren't doublecastable

twilit rune
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Yeah but mages can't doublecast anyway so I don't see the relevance

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You need seq or oceanus lungs

wind path
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but they could and a thief can't

twilit rune
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Uh no

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That T3 sorcerer can't doublecast

agile violet
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If they use a spell they can

twilit rune
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The T5 (or is it 6?) druids ain't wielding oceanus lung cstaffs

wind path
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so what you saying is delete sequencer and add the passives to the mages with different % including beo hydrus and deity ara and summoner hydrus etc?

agile violet
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Infact there is more mage classes than cannot double cast than can

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No

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We're correcting you saying heretic already has a unique skill

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In sequence

twilit rune
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I'm not suggesting any specific changes to Heretic

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I am only arguing that you can't call sequencer's passives a "mage thing"

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because they're not

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because most mages don't get them

wind path
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i agree with that its not a mage thing

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its a heretic thing

twilit rune
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Uhhhhhh no it's not

wind path
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its the class that benefits from it the most

twilit rune
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That's not the same thing

wind path
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same thing as a class unique?

twilit rune
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Look, by definition each of the classes' "things" is something anyone of the class can use, even if they had no gear

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As soon as someone picks up the class, they get the "thing"

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That's not the case for doublecasts

wind path
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blue line?

twilit rune
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Sure

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That is more or less a heretic "thing"

wind path
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healing when it deals spell damage?

twilit rune
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If you're just going to list all the passives heretic does get, I mean, sure go for it, I already know them though

wind path
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do you want even more than all those then?

twilit rune
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Not particularly

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Again, I'm not trying to advocate for any changes to heretic

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I just took issue with the incorrect statement that sequencer passives are a "heretic thing"

wind path
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who else it would be?

twilit rune
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A sequencer thing

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Also, it would be nice if the lower tier mage classes also got a "mage thing"

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For the entire mage classline

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It can just be blueline for all I care

agile violet
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Every classline has a thing so far

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Heretic will get one

twilit rune
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I think Heretic doesn't need a strength boost

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I do think the mage classline should get a "thing" just to be consistent with the other classlines

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Also, I personally think quick and doublecast is too strong to be the "mage thing"

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Just as my two cents

agile violet
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Maybe

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Although avidity is similar

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And all theif get it

wind path
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critical damage reduction while using shields

twilit rune
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No

agile violet
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Wtf that's a nerf

twilit rune
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A class "thing" shouldn't be gear dependent

agile violet
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You already get one anyway

wind path
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from damage received

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not from damage done

agile violet
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Oh

twilit rune
agile violet
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It doesn't fit into heretic tho.

wind path
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it makes them less squishy and less prone to one hits out of no where

twilit rune
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I say just something simple like idk 1% mana regen

twilit rune
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The whole point of a class "thing" should be it isn't gear dependent

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It isn't anything dependent except just be the class

wind path
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then a manashield that depletes mana and reduces critical damage taken

agile violet
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Not bad

twilit rune
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I mean yeah sure, I'm not a game dev so I'm not really in a position to assess balance, but that would fit the criteria of a "mage thing"

wind path
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critical damage reduction because its unique and nothing counters critical damage so far

agile violet
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Yep

vestal flare
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please don't give heretics even more defensive tools... If you want a defensive mage, play Deity.

lost rock
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Saying heretic doesn't deserve something unique because Sequencer specialization exist doesn't make sense 👀

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not heretic, the whole mage line ***

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This should be more focused on the whole line and not just Heretic imo

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if blueline or double crit damage is the "Mage thing", then all mage line should have access to some sort of this imo

deft sandal
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Make mage can crit from all spells, even the spells with 0 base crit chance 😄

left vault
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And another Heretic thread is dead 😒

storm gazelle
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Man if we only had something the whole classline could have just to spice it up a tad

vestal flare
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Odie clearly said that it was coming this year. So your best bet is just to wait and give organized ideas.

random thorn
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Konq seems to know something that we dont 🤔

storm gazelle
loud notch
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Let's try to revive this thread 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Heretic/mage have identity issues IMO too, as stated before, so here is one basic idea I would like to share and I hope to have your thoughts about it :

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  • mechanics that change ward into some magic shield, linked to your magic stat (or something like that)
  • passive auto-sigil at the start of each floor, with a AOE/half-AOE ara spell, a kind of elemental ray wich seperate to deal damage on the weakness applied with the auto-sigil
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It could become mage specific ability, and such as Gilga with col dmg and RS with avidity, it let some place for some addorns/gear to increase those abilities (to lower dex issues for exemple)

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And IMO it could help solving some issues : heretic underperforming in anguish + identity issues

agile violet
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I'm really sure what heretic can be given..

But heretic is the only class that cannot use celestial axe which most classes use for high anguish.

It also doesn't have a fixed miss spell

Ara vesta lacks compared to CS

And heretic Ara is pretty useless

loud notch
agile violet
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Yes

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Tbh I'd like some NF involvement. GS Hydrus is confirmed as the next class to be looked at after diety but no mention of heretic

loud notch
vestal flare
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IMO one of the reasons non CS build will never work in higher difficulty is because of how tanky you become on top of your damages. Especially since ward regen is part of the build.

loud notch
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2 solutions :

  • nerf CS (I m not asking for it)
  • give mages some specific MAGES abilities ♥️
agile violet
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@loud notch that's a general thing coming. Doesn't address CS, axe, or ara

jagged plaza
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Buff using scrolls, why a mague has to use a shield

loud notch
deft sandal
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I really like the omnimancy spells, thinking about a way to make it more viable for mage

vestal flare
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be careful with buffing omnimancy as ultima is part of the show

storm gazelle
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There's so many single element skills that don't get love because of Ultima tbh

vestal flare
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all spells become useless once you get ultima. Even one turn spells as you can make ultima a 1t spell also.

twilit rune
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imagine transference with crit chance

jagged plaza
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finally some use to scrolls

vestal flare
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you could have a subclass having
||mana shield : XX% of the damage you received is directed to your mana with a conversion rate of XX damage per mana point.
Then the scrolls are what buffs the convertion rate.

loud notch
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Just need a little adjustement from Covyn 🤣

vestal flare
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I've a 5yo kid in my head explaining the image the he just draw with sound effects mimic

loud notch
jagged plaza
twilit rune
jagged plaza
left vault
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If we speak about all mage and it need to be useful at start to endgame then how about something like ignoring some elemental res and even immunity on enemy's? Like 10-20% or so? 🤔

twilit rune
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Still less optimal than just hitting neutrally, no?

jagged plaza
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mague is based on water fire earth spells or is that deity?

vestal flare
twilit rune
left vault
loud notch
twilit rune
jagged plaza
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what about, every turn magues has a chance to apply a sigil to a enemy, when magues exploit the sigil with the right element, they gain a effect based on the sigil element

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ultima no applies to this

twilit rune
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Ultima is... its own issue

jagged plaza
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fire sigil ( tem magic up)
water sigil ( aoe damage )
something like that

left vault
vestal flare
# loud notch It could help remove some issues mage have to have Access quickly to their bluel...

tbf, there's less issues to obtain blueline than to keep redline. you don't really have quick access to redline too. You can't rely on second chance, berserk do drain hp but kills you (my most death reason in endless). And double edge takes ages (especially when redline starts at 50%). You've quad edge but buying a celestial just for that...
Main reason I use Dara is because blueline > redline. And now with acorn you've infinite low mana setup for "free".

twilit rune
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man the more I think about it the more I want to actually see crit chance transference at least just to know what it would be like

vestal flare
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why transference crit when you can ultima, which is better ?

twilit rune
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15% ward regen

vestal flare
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you've pet for that

jagged plaza
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i dont like that ultima overpass literally all spells

twilit rune
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I use phoenix

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Also yeah Ultima is its own issue

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I don't even have access to Ultima kekw I'm 231

vestal flare
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Odie tried to nerf ultima, but discord almost exploded

jagged plaza
jagged plaza
twilit rune
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I never understood why Ultima ignores resistances but accounts for weaknesses

That just sounds... strange

loud notch
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But it's not the main topic here sorry

twilit rune
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Also, this is something I'm actually not sure on; is two-turn Ultima still better than Fey V?

vestal flare
vestal flare
twilit rune
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Right

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Weakness

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smh

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I was about to add "assuming elementally neutral" but I guess that's just not how it works

left vault
jagged plaza
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What if, when heretis deals basic elements damage, the enemies are marked with a element. When a enemy has 2 elements, the elements are removed and deals an effect based on the combinations.

Fire + Fire ( Deals Extra Damage )
Fire + Water ( 90% stuns )
Fire + Earth ( Gives t. resistances )
Fire + Electricity ( oneshots the target ignoring everythig )

vestal flare
twilit rune
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Bulwark boosts dragon magic only?

left vault
vestal flare
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it's the same because you don't use the items that boost ultima, if you add them then ultima is stronger

left vault
left vault
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If we wana do something for heretic it be beret change ara spec

twilit rune
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Give ara access to c.axe Kappa

left vault
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If something like all mage identity its need be simple. Some passive i suppose...

left vault
loud notch
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Well, let's also rework LOTR movies with Gandalf using an axe and a shield then

vestal flare
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yes uses a sword tho

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sword + 2H staff, bro is staright up cheating

loud notch
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Thank you all, this topic is now closed, we just have to wait for NF to nerf Gandalf and all will be fine 😁🧙‍♂️😱

twilit rune
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true and real

jagged plaza
loud notch
jagged plaza
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but magic shield only protects vs magic spells?

loud notch
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Could fit with some players ideas to revive omnimancy for AOE purpose, and look like more of a mage thing than hoping for us to be able able to use an axe as mage

twilit rune
loud notch
jagged plaza
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I say this because later they will claim that the magicians are broken.

loud notch
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But most likely really hard to balance, and I agree with many players pointing that New abilities have to stay simple

vestal flare
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you could have physical magic shield that's 125% efficient vs physical attacks and 75% against magic
and magical shield the other way

both activated with a stand that changes you ward to this

loud notch
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I have to go but thank you for the nice talk and ideas

loud notch
left vault
vestal flare
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most of the mag stuff barely have any def

jagged plaza
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With a physical shield it would be very op

twilit rune
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cries in berserk fallen realmshifter

vestal flare
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but they have access to very strong all class gear like bulwark or fey surtr cuirass, they just like to complain about their def mimic

jagged plaza
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If the deity rework has a new mechanic, there we could cry so that they give us something similarmimic

vestal flare
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Odie alraedy said he'll had a specific mechanic to every classline, it's deity turn right now but heretic is not forgotten. just be patient.

left vault
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Well. Also its can be something about debuf. Like chance to ignore immunity or so.. 🤔

deft sandal
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Maybe make mage classline an elemental overload, each turn they will deal more damage of an/some elements
This will make heretic bring more element spells - so we can really use all our spell slots
Also, make this passive not working with Ultima - it'd be too broken

random thorn
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Personally i love for heretic to be able to pierce elemental immunity/resistance when casting elemental spell

green spruce
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That sounds pretty cool

unkempt quartz
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  • A passive that increases Mag as Ward turns increase, with a reasonable cap or increment of increase.

  • A stance that increases Mag by burning Ward turns while also depleting Ward at twice the Mana cost of the spell (only the turns expended give power, not the Ward being consumed, and spells still cost Mana as well).

  • Fortify IV & Transference IV as learnable spells (the latter living up to its name by taking 1-3 ward turns from the target and giving them to the caster but has less ward recovery than Transference III)

  • A spell series that consumes 25/50/100% of the caster's ward turns and converts that into more damage. Give it a fixed hit rate and the final version a longer casting time.

  • Some variation of the above.

mental granite
# random thorn Personally i love for heretic to be able to pierce elemental immunity/resistance...

that sounds not good.

as a mage passive, it would show up starting in like T7+.
late-game heretics wouldn't even care about it since MD and ultima ignore immune/resists anyway.

it would improve the ability for low tier mages to... just use one element and ignore the rest? one-button gameplay is the opposite of a good mechanic. if anything, mage classline should get a weakness multiplier to support using more than one element/skill.

random thorn
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Well.. one button gameplay is kind of expected with a passive unique. Look at Bestial bond, avidity and CD, the gameplay for them are still pretty much one button mashing.

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Unless, we shift to an active unique like what NF is doing for diety with the apex gauge

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~~How about this active unique instead?

  • Each time Heretic exploit an enemy weakness, it will gain an elemental token
  • When it reaches 3 token, it can use all 3 token and cast an unique spell that can: 1. pierce enemy status immunity/resistance 2. deal good dmg 3. inflict a number of status (bypass immunity with no. 1)~~
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just some random proof of concept

twilit rune
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imo immunity/resistance bypass isn't really that useful. The mage line gets enough elemental versatility that there's no reason to be hitting a resistance or immunity in the first place.

And of course Ultima exists in lategame

vestal flare
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The only place I could see myself using a passive that removes resist/immune is in endless with double orn weapons (so no ultima) and using dragon affinity. That's extremely limited to say the least.

random thorn
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Fair enough

random thorn
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How about this unique for Heretics?

Elemental master 1/2/3 - Heretic gained an elemental token or point when using **two or less elements** in an attack. These elemental token can be spent on certain exclusive spells. Maximum of 2/3/5 token
Note: spell with more than 2 element (i.e. ultima, omniblast) do not count towards earning the token.

As for those exclusive spells, they are unique in that they can pierce status immunity some examples will be:
Hellfire - Require 1 token. Deal moderate Fire damage. Cannot Crit. Inflict Burn on enemy even if they are immune to the status
Hell Freeze - Require 3 token. Deal heavy Fire and Ice damage. Can Crit. Inflict Burn and Freeze on enemy even if they are immune to the status
TerraVolt Fury - Require 3 token. Deal heavy Earth and Lightning damage. Can Crit. Inflict Rot and Paralyse on enemy even if they are immune to the status
Some OG spells will work differently in this new system too
Fey Inferno/ Galicer/ Catalysm / Fulmination - Use of spell Gain 2 elemental token instead of 1

wild nimbus
random thorn
#

no element, but depending on the feedback, i could tweak it a bit for it to work for physical spells.

wild nimbus
lost rock
#

What about something like this:

  • Every time the mage attacks, it charges elemental proficiency
  • once fully charged, the mage becomes one with the elements, making the attacks with the 4 basic elements to hit multiple enemies for x amount of turns or just once, depends on how fast this is made to charge or something.
clever rune
#

merge heretic mana and hp, life siphon can now recover mana, keep blue line. depending on how merging is implemented, blue line might become purple line.

clever rune
#

there are 2 ways i can see how this will be implemented:

  1. hp can be used for spells, either after all mp or by choice. maybe give extra cost to hp spells but also give more damage (not sure if it should give penetration or damage muliplier). life stays only hp, blue line stays blue. strates around this will be to use as much mana as possible then use life to hit. tldr: blood magic
  2. hp and mana becomes one (let's call purple point (pp) for now). life siphon will be changed to recover pp, blue line turns into purple line that tracks pp (need to be reworked to a bit to work with new life siphon but rs can heal with crits and has redline so i think it's fine). heretic is now less squishy at the start but becomes more dangerous to play the longer they go fight, the meta stay practically the same though, like this less than 1 since one of the main issues with heretic is a lack of viable gear.
deft sandal
#

guys, it should be a unique passive for the whole mage classline, not just heretic
It can't be just to synergy with blue line or depend on life siphon, those 2 things not available on low tier mage class

vivid bone
#

Transform the heretic's Omnimancy into Omnimancy 5. From Omnimancy 1, 2, 3... To all mages, and let Omnimancy be the identity

#

But from my point of view, Heretic and mage classes in general don't NEED changes

#

Also playing the "Ultima exists" card doesn't seem to be helping

#

Let's ignore this ability

#

If you need a nerf or buff later, that's the NF's job 🤷

#

Heretic line mages should focus on elements, and be the best at using spells

#

Just giving a passive to the entire line doesn't seem to solve all equipment problems

#

Or for example the inefficiency we have with some skills, like those of Heretic Ara

#

We also have inefficient skills in the Omnimancer, his skills are good, but they lose when compared to necrosis or surrow

#

Elements may be disadvantageous in some content such as PvP or raids

#

And using skills with physical or non-elemental damage causes us to lose bonuses such as weakness, faction, alignment...

random thorn
#

@storm gazelle Has NF more or less had a set idea for heretic unique, not sure if we are having a futile session here?

clever rune
vivid bone
#

Little detail there

#

Don't put us in the same basket

clever rune
#

it's the same basket, their is just made in china

vivid bone
#

Unstable Ominimancy is practically a disease in divinity

#

Omnimancy in the heretic, speaking of the passive, is the class's main defensive passive and it works very well to the point that I would say it is much stronger than it should be.

#

Omnimancy simply makes you immune to 8 of the 11 damage types I can remember

#

At a rate high enough to be reliable

#

And as far as I remember, it also overlaps with the alignments

deft sandal
#

omnimancy 1 is 50% immune to 4 basic elements, omnimancy 2 is 8 elements iirc

#

haven't try Heretic origin or Ara for a while now, i forgot how strong it is 🥴

unkempt quartz
#

So, I was giving this way too much thought and felt the need to put it somewhere. The first half is my reasoning for the suggestions that follow. It touches on Deity & Heretic/mages, but not the celestials.

Point 5 is my suggestion for mages overall if you (understandably) don't want to read a wall of text:

#

Considering lore and gameplay, it feels like Deity and Heretic should have been the other way around.

Gaia, Ifrit, Leviathan, & Taranis leading up to Deity as master of the primary elements w/Omnimancy while Heretics possess Unstable Omnimancy would make more sense, subjectively speaking.

Heretic could instead be a master of the secondary elements (might need to create some new spells here), perhaps with a focus on Arcane since it seems like a distortion/perversion of the four primaries.

Heretics were also followers of Apollyon, known for unorthodox magic, so abandoning the traditional elements makes far more sense for Heretics than Deities (again, subjectively speaking).

With that said, I would make the following amendments:

  1. Omnimancy II (now a Deity ability) gains a damage bonus to attacks that use the primary elements (stacks with the Faction bonus).

  2. Unstable Omnimancy (now a Heretic ability) no longer causes weakness, but may cause a resistance (from faction, gear, or buffs) to be treated as neutral instead.

  3. [Physical] is removed from both forms of Omnimancy.

  4. Iconoclast now increases the power of secondary elemental attacks and physical spells, while mitigating the damage reduction granted by resistances.

  5. The Mage line takes old Iconoclast/bluelining as its "thing" starting at T6/T7 (this is when Mystic Feather/Bestial Bonds are first available, for comparison). Higher tier versions increase effectiveness sooner and also increase hit rate as mana nears depletion.

I also considered a buff to Def/Res while mana is full/close to max but that seemed excessive. I just don't know what else to give Heretics that's on par with the Ward shenanigans that everyone else can use more effectively.

deft sandal
#

physical was never in any omnimancy

unkempt quartz
deft sandal
#

Heretic doesn't need a good new passive, tbh, it's already in a good state. We just need a simple and interesting passive, no need to a whole rework for current passive of heretic and another class
All of the stuff you said are very hard to implement, kinda confuse and doesn't thought about balancing stuff

Omnimancy is strong, i agree but it's not brokenly OP, it make you immune to elements (50%) chance. So what? Other classe have 100% immune to something, Gilga immune to arcane, Beo immune to dragon, RS immune to holy and dark. We don't really need to rework omnimancy. In PvP, people rarely use elements spell anyway, in raids, all Ultimate spells are non elements

We also don't need something to increase elemental damage. Why? It would make Ultima so broken. I love Ultima but everyone already complaint how OP it is, we don't need to make it more OP

#

I like the idea about make omnimancy 1/2/3/4/5, it could be good, endgame heretic need no more buff, lower mage deserve some love
Or maybe just make a mini The Old Gods passive with only def, res but a bit more chance (like 20% getting t.def+, t.res+)

random thorn
#

Something like old god passive is not unique lol

mental granite
#

We also don't need something to increase elemental damage. Why? It would make Ultima so broken.
For what it's worth, there's ways to increase elemental damage without boosting Ultima.
For instance, a buff to single-element damages.

Also it sucks that there's so many things that "can't change" because of that one silly skill.

deft sandal
#

Yeah, if Odie can make increase single element damage, it'd be great. I miss the old days using water element spells and omnimancy spells 😉

#

How hard to impliment silence and disarm debuff?
Silence = can't use magical spells
disarm = can't use physics skills

storm gazelle
random thorn
#

Personally i will prefer an active unique (apex gauge for diety) than passive one (i.e. avidity)

#

I will prefer to shift away from one button mashing that passive unique dont quite address

twilit rune
#

"This should be about the entire mage line"

conversation returns to being about heretic
lmao

vivid bone
#

Instead of thinking about 14 classes in the wizard line, it is more useful to think about one

#

As it will be something for everyone, it will only need to be adjusted for the tier

twilit rune
#

I'd argue heretic is the wrong one to think about then because it has the most stuff already

vivid bone
#

Heretic is the end of the magical line, any change that makes something of the magicians will interfere with it

twilit rune
#

Unless a heretic passive just gets expanded

agile violet
#

Heretic unique feature?

vivid bone
#

It still seems to affect him

twilit rune
agile violet
#

Honestly what makes heretic unique is it's the only class that can't use celestial axe..that's it's true power.

vivid bone
#

Depending on how we look at it, for example, greed was made for RS and mirrored it for his entire line in a weaker way

twilit rune
vivid bone
#

We can also say that it was made for the initial classes and spread across RS

twilit rune
#

? If the other mage classes get something like idk more effective crits, I don't see how that affects heretic

vivid bone
#

If they get improved critical they will probably gain critical abilities

#

New skills for heretic to use (?)

agile violet
#

Don't worry about a mage only passive

vivid bone
#

But again, this isn't unique, RS has improved crit

agile violet
#

Concentration on Heretic

storm gazelle
#

I agree that it should be mage line and not just Heretic 👀

#

we need more defining of endgame playstyles in early and midgame tbh, we see that a bit more with Collateral Damage in warriors and Avidity to a degree, but you anticipate nothing walking into Heretic

wind path
#

Mana walking 🤡

vestal flare
#

moona walking : your spell generate mana instead of consuming it (because...backward you know 🤡 )

mighty thorn
#

Just to chuck some ideas out there...

#

What's currently common across the mage line?

  • Charge moves. Sorrow, Nekrosis, Fey unstables, Ultima (yoink). There are some melee equivalents, but historically DV's never been asked about as much as Sorrow.
    Idea: Maybe charge moves could get a bonus based on charging duration. More damage, quickcast chance, charging a gauge (think Limit Breaks from FF), reducing incoming damage/statuses, for example.
  • Large mana pools.
    Idea: something that charges with mana spent, and has an effect when you hit some threshold. Distinct from blueline, spending 500 then potioning back up would still count as 500 spent.
    Effect could be to buff your next spell, or use a bonus spell, or go Super Sonic mode for a bit (draining mana each turn and disabling mana regen til you run out?)
#

What other options could we lean into that aren't as unique to mage atm?

  • Multhits. We get the elemental ones, Magic Strikes/Chakram for physical, the worst AV for nonelemental. Melee do have things like WD/WP, Swordplay, Ultimastrikes.
    Idea: something that cares how many hits were done. Additional damage beyond the first hit, a stacking [de]buff, make On Hit stuff proc each hit.
  • Elemental interaction. Up to T8 we get various spells, but melee gets similar skills. T9 gives us 2-element omnimancy, T9 celestials get 4, then T10 forgets about that and goes back to singles. Deity classes get the big ones, and Nyx Hercules gets some too.
    Idea: something to benefit using varied elements. Maybe using a spell gives you a mini Alignment for another element.
    The effect would need to be strong enough to outdo faction bonus, and ideally not just be another Ultima boost. But it also shouldn't overly penalise using non-Ultima omnimancy.
#

I do agree that, like Avidity and CD, it should be something that goes through the whole mage line, not just slapped on Heretic only

#

Super Sonic mode sounds kinda fun tbh.

Mana Conduction
Spending mana in battle gives you stacks of Conduction.
At 100 stacks, changes Attack to Release.
While Released, mana cannot be restored and will drain each turn, but your spells will do additional damage. Conduction stacks cannot be gained.
Effects like Iconoclast will consider you to be 0 mana while Released.
Release ends when at 0 mana.
deft sandal
#

We need a passive that can work at anytime, not all battle last 100 turns like Arisen Waygate 😂

mighty thorn
#

100 stacks is not 100 turns, in that example

#

charges based on mana used

#

could be 1%=1 stack, could be 2%, whatever. Exact numbers aren't important really

#

point just being use mana -> get buffed state for a bit -> burn mana -> repeat

random thorn
#

I really like the idea of limit break from FF. Perhaps mages gain 1 stack per round? maximum stack ranged from 3 -5 depends on the tier of mage.

at 3 stack or 5 stack, you can use unique spells which goes more powerful, the more stack it cost

#

As for how stacks can be gained, it can be from mana used per turn or whatever mechanics imagined

deft sandal
#

It still gonna take a long time to be active, not fit for so many content of the game while other class line passive is helpful in any mode
Like PvP, tower, you're not gonna make it active before battle end

celest bear
#

is this about spirit garm or heratic being lacking?

#

I played hera a lot for *10

deft sandal
celest bear
#

like life siphon, starting at necro?

#

and omnimancy?

random thorn
celest bear
#

or is it not 'needs buffs' but more like 'can we put a bow on this?'

deft sandal
random thorn
deft sandal
#

talking about life siphon, is there any other class line have life siphon now?

celest bear
#

nyx, and ruby gems

deft sandal
mighty thorn
#

and some god classes

#

Nyx does have LS

celest bear
#

oh right, ifrit

#

its a pretty big deal at *8, *9 tho

mighty thorn
#

goals for me would be

  • something interesting
  • that works at lower tiers
  • and with non-Ultima heretic
  • that doesn't powercreep Ultima heretic much if at all vs other options
celest bear
#

I wouldve liked if archdruid, necro had leaned further away from the basic 8 element skills

#

omnimancer and hera have alt classes, and with hints like "stargazer" and "chronomancer" spec, it would be nice to see the alt classes lean into something like that

#

i guess Ara does, but are the rune skills not used at all?

agile violet
#

Never

mighty thorn
#

rarely

#

I've heard they get some use against the pegasi in towers

#

if you can't reliably one-shot them

celest bear
#

or..
what if necro learned all the fey skills, and then Omni, Hera got a passive skill that, like summoner mastery, just boosted dmg for magic spells

jagged plaza
#

we doesnt need More damage

mighty thorn
#

flat damage boost fails the "something interesting" check at least

#

and the "don't powercreep Ultima" one

celest bear
#

but the base dmg of all magic skills would drop a lot

#

would have to*

mighty thorn
#

so... no net difference?

jagged plaza
#

What about " Every third spell, the damage dealt to a unit is splitted aoe" if Is only one enemy "maintain the effect until aoe"

celest bear
#

and the side effect being non magic classes are not gonna be as effective at fey elemental magic

#

(unless it's like a god class of the same element)

#

maybe there should be a Mage guild that you can build after unlocking sorceror, that lets you specialize your mage class with different passives

twilit rune
#

That sounds too uhhhhh involved

celest bear
#

it would be a problem if, like specialization, players felt compelled to pick different things for different content

deft sandal
#

How about a passive that make mage class get bonus when use off-hand scrolls? 2 birds with 1 stone
Off hand scrolls are pretty much useless right now, this will make them usable

#

Furthermore, this can help we create more build for the class, we can also add more scroll type drop for new content

mental granite
#

cool idea. scrolls are free design space since they're ~not used and also show up starting from very early in the game too.

civic creek
#

Feels weird to tie the new classline feature to a single gear type. Seems more like a spec kinda thing to me

wild nimbus
#

i feel like scrolls in general should be reworked

#

like a little mana restore and negative ward isnt exactly very useful, and the ward hurts

vestal flare
#

you could get different types of bonus whether you're using double staffs, staff + scroll, staff + shield, 2H staff.
like double staff gives you a little bump to fastcast, scroll gives you crit chance and or mana related passive, staff shield convert a fraction of your mag to def/res, 2H staff gives you chance to hit multiple targets. Those are just examples.

wild nimbus
#

maybe scrolls could have unique spells on it

#

i mean, it is a scroll after all

deft sandal
wild nimbus
#

if it was unique spell not obtained in any other way it would be cool but technically even having fey spark on it makes it much better than it currently is

left vault
#

Hmm.. ignoring some % elemental res passive if using 1 or 2 element spell?

#

It avoids ultima coz he use more elements and be work on any grade

austere grotto
#

I was about to create a thread to discuss about The Heretic rework and brainstorming over a possible unique feature, but I saw this thread already existed

austere grotto
#

**Heretic **

Iconoclast
✅ +100% all stats when at low Mana

Blue lining, powerful in extended fight after spending much mana

Omnimancy II
✅ 50% to be immune from the element of an incoming attack

Strong survivability passive against elemental foes, not much against physical ones

Steadfast II
✅ +50% status protection

Excellent survivability and comfort passive

Mana Rush
✅ 50% to survive at 1 HP and lose 50% of actual mana

Situational but strong survivability passive as it synergizes well with Iconoclast, giving extra stats for retaliation

Life Siphon
✅ 50% to heal 10% from damage inflicted

Good healing and survivability passive

Weaved Elements II
❌ Use the 8 elements for the next spell to be doublecasted, each distinct element increase damage of the next distinct element by +20% until end of effect

Using 8 turns (or 6 using omnimancy spells) and as much spell slots to increase more and more the damage output doesn't feel very appealing
I don't know how specific mage gear could be made to help mage with this passive ...

The Heretic
❌ -25% mana cost
🛠️ +5% missing mana regeneration

Decreasing mana cost slows down the Iconoclast scaling, you want actually increase and use as much mana possible
Added the missing mana regen to help Heretic to stay at low mana and exploit its main passive better

austere grotto
#

I would recommend using Sigils, Alignments, Quickcast or Doublecast as tools to define Mage's identity

alpine frost
austere grotto
alpine frost
#

Weaving multiple elements increases your damage by 20% multiplicatively

#

Not saying that it's a good passive but people seem to forget about that part

austere grotto
#

each element weaved multiply by 1.2 the damage until you weaved the 8 elements ?

alpine frost
#

Yes

austere grotto
#

Does it reset after the weaved doublecast ?

alpine frost
#

Yes

#

Essentially a full weaved elements combo deals 1,2^7*2 damage should be arround 7,1x

austere grotto
#

Okay, but if you don't complete the weaved elements collection, do you keep all boosts from weaved elements ?

#

Like you are missing 1 element, do you have 1.2^6 damage increase ?

agile violet
alpine frost
#

Each subsequent hit deals 20% more damage than the last

alpine frost
austere grotto
#

And you can spam Ultima with 1.2^6 multiplier ? mimic

alpine frost
#

Weaved elements doesn't work with omnimancy so no

austere grotto
#

When I say Ultima, it's any spells actually

#

Meaning that breaking the weaving spells doesn't remove the damage multiplier

#

so it's more interesting to actually NOT complete the Weaving ritual mightiest_mimic

alpine frost
#

What?

austere grotto
#

Misunderstanding ?

#

Imagine an Heretic that weaved all element but Dark

#

He use Magic Strikes, does it benefits of the Weaved multiplier ?

alpine frost
#

No

#

Physical isn't one of the elements used for weaved elements

austere grotto
#

Ok so it only applies to element weavable

alpine frost
#

It's Fire, Water, Earth, Lightning, Dark, Holy, Dragon, Arcane

#

#811254572042420245 message

austere grotto
alpine frost
#

If you use an element that you've already weaved it resets the chain

austere grotto
#

okay, that's what I wanted to know

#

thanks

#

Corrected the Weaved Elements Passive

flint gazelle
#

I don't know how specific mage gear could be made to help mage with this passive [Weaved Elements]

There is a crapton of low tier 'elemental' scrolls, for example. Equipping them could make an element automatically weaved.

austere grotto
#

Interesting

flint gazelle
#

There is definitely potential to make Weaved Elements less clunkly through gear, both low and high tier ones

austere grotto
#

But I still puzzled on the unique feature being pure damage increase

flint gazelle
#

isn't heretic identity big blue numbers already? mimic

#

It's still meant to be a mid-tier passive though

austere grotto
#

Thief gains extra turn he can use to increase damage, buff, heal or anything else
Warrior deals an extra tick of damage that can hit another enemy than the initial target
Valhallan gains extra stats and even abilities from specific follower, giving more versatility
God collect power to unleash specific abilities with overpowered effects, not just damage

#

I like the idea to use different elements, but using them like a chain just for damage increase is kinda a boring design

#

I would prefer a passive that inflict a random elemental sigil to a monster, using an ability with the corresponding element to this monster will make this ability non-missable and increases the weakness damage bonus

#

I will make my vision of Heretic variants with those ideas, tell me what you think

vivid bone
austere grotto
#

I will see that once I proposed my 2 versions of Heretics

vivid bone
#

Sometimes I just want to use drain 3 and fully recover my HP, and I can't, as I would have to restart from the first element

#

And I'm not even asking for weaving to increase physical/non-elemental damage

#

For me it's more like something focused on QoL

agile violet
#

Id like something that's definitely passive. I don't want to have to check I'm using the right spells in the right order for the passive to work.

#

Cd just procs without having to do any thing. Even works on mage dance

#

Same with avidity

vivid bone
austere grotto
#

Heretic Ara

Iconoclast
✅ +100% all stats when at low Mana

Same as base Heretic

Omnimancy II
✅ 50% to be immune from the element of an incoming attack

Same as base Heretic

Steadfast II
✅ +50% status protection

Same as base Heretic

Mana Rush
✅ 50% to survive at 1 HP and lose 50% of actual mana

Same as base Heretic

Weaved Elements II
❌ Use the 8 elements for the next spell to be doublecasted, each distinct element increase damage of the next distinct element by +20% until end of effect

Same as base Heretic

Scribe of sigils
🛠️ 25% to cast a random sigil ability each turn
🛠️ +50% Assassin
Casting a spell of the same element than the sigil applied on an enemy will never miss

I like the idea of a class dedicated to sigils and exploiting them, but not using elemental ones is a wasted potential.
I propose to add sigil abilities to this class (and pre-t10 ones too) so we can use them more freely and with more flexibility

Ara
✅ +400% damage limit
❌ +15% damage to celestial marked enemies
✅ +25% mana cost
🛠️ +5% missing mana regeneration

With high burst damage, damage limit increase is mandatory
Mana cost increase is helpful for faster Iconoclast scaling

Hidden Passive
❌ +50% critical damage
🛠️ +50% elemental weakness damage

NOTES:

Celestial Sigils and spells related to them are removed and replaced by new sigils that have various elements and effects upon using the right element.
Exemple : an exploding rune that deals AoE damage, a life stealing rune, etc ...```
vivid bone
#

Wouldn't making corvus a class with sigils be a better option here? Corvus has access to rogue items that have the assassin passive

austere grotto
#

I don't know many items that Thief only and with Assassin

#

I know Arisen Genius and Medusa's Head, Nag belt

vivid bone
austere grotto
#

Right

#

but fun fact

#

Assassin bonus on Fomor gear is the same as Autumna mimic

vivid bone
vivid bone
# vivid bone Autumna's entire set

The set also increases the damage of statuses, I don't know, maybe this could work to increase the damage of the ability that would burst the marks?

austere grotto
#

good idea

#

I don't know, because for Heretic Corvus, I was going to focus on Dex and Crit

vivid bone
austere grotto
#

Ah yes, the buff duration and ally effect chance

#

they could have add also Buff Success chance +20%

#

It could have be nice to have 100% Wyvern's Speed, Wyrm's Song, or even making Battle Dance more viable

agile violet
#

Yeah never touched the wintara. Seems useless for heretic

spice zealot
#

Wintara is made for Summoners

austere grotto
#

Heretic Corvus

Iconoclast
✅ +100% all stats when at low Mana

Same as base Heretic

Steadfast II
✅ +50% status protection

Same as base Heretic

Mystic Feather
❌ +60% dodge chance when low HP

Lowering HP doesn't synergize with Iconoclast, you're just gambling with your life for no real gain

Ethereal Feather
🛠️ +60% dodge chance when low mana

Better synergy

Weaved Elements II
❌ Use the 8 elements for the next spell to be doublecasted, each distinct element increase damage of the next distinct element by +20% until end of effect

Same as base Heretic

Inverted Recharge
🛠️ -25% actual mana and +33% max HP regen on crit

Allows a fast Iconoclast scaling and a strong healing factor

Corvus
🛠️ +50% buff duration -> Dexterity increases the Buff Duration, Buff Success chance, Quickcast chance and Doublecast chance

Encourage building Dex to convert it in utility and more firepower

plucky oxide
#

Wouldn't mana nullifier make it quite difficult to blue line in the first place

austere grotto
#

There are many expensive abilities that doesn't crit

plucky oxide
#

What useful abilities are there that are expensive and don't crit

austere grotto
#

"Useful" I don't know

plucky oxide
#

Well then why would I use the ability

austere grotto
#

Spamming Ward of Balor maybe ? mimic

plucky oxide
#

That would take forever to blue line esp on high AL

austere grotto
#

yikes true

plucky oxide
#

Also not sure you need to encourage full crit? Most heretics build for full crit alr

austere grotto
#

I don't want to make another +5% missing mana regen to this class too :x

plucky oxide
#

It's kinda weak otherwise I feel but also I noob so maybe I'm wrong

austere grotto
#

Look for the original Heretic Corvus, you will see the definition of weakness

vivid bone
# austere grotto they could have add also Buff Success chance +20%

It's a possibility, but I'm still a little suspicious about whether I would want to use it or not, going a little off topic... There are 2 points that I don't like about this set, the first is the negative Def, which accentuates one of the Heretic's problems, and the other is the buff that has little use... BUT it may gain some use after the nerf to the corvus passive

plucky oxide
vivid bone
spice zealot
#

Which isn't particularly useful for us :p

#

But I digress, not the point of the thread

austere grotto
#

Nocturna is just "cancel the fun for pet players"

vivid bone
austere grotto
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I correct that

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Hello breadman, I saw you @loud notch

loud notch
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#1251460045078528020 message

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(There have been many different threads about heretic rework. So just sharing what I would love to see as a gameplay for H Ara, with a combination of the weaved and sigil to have a new way to deal with anguish dungeons)

spice zealot
austere grotto
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oh

vivid bone
austere grotto
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This kind of passive ?

loud notch
spice zealot
# austere grotto This kind of passive ?

Yeah, that sort of passive would make getting to passive much easier, but harder to maintain it.
Whereas your proposed suggestion to base heretic made getting to passive harder, but easier to maintain it.

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It'd be a nice mirror effect

vivid bone
austere grotto
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I could add Cost Reduction in Corvus passive

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so it increase ith Dex invested

vivid bone
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It also needs to be 1 turn

austere grotto
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Use Zwei-fencer

loud notch
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A combination of a T mana burn skill (for exemple a skill that doesn't cost a turn and create a +% of mana cost) with a passive that tend to recude mana cost on low mana ? Not sure it's easy again

loud notch
vivid bone
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Even North Star is a bad decision for dps

loud notch
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I m really hoping for this auto-sigil mechanic with a semi ara AOE triggering weaved for a big ara AOE each 2/3 dungeons floors 🤞

austere grotto
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Mana burn turn 1 guarantee +50% all stats from Iconoclast, right ?

wet stag
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not to mention.blue line even harder the way u gain more al

vivid bone
wet stag
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Since spell has fixed mana cost but your manapool grow up

spice zealot
austere grotto
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Iconoclast at 100%

wet stag
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That is why d ara lost their line for another op apex line one

austere grotto
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Also Quad-Edge is -40% HP

spice zealot
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40%*

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Quad Quad Doub Doub puts you at 1hp

wet stag
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No can be 2 3hp too

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Not always 1hp

spice zealot
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"1" hp

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fine

vivid bone
# austere grotto Resurgence start at 50% HP

When they take the second hit they will be at the redline, and without worry, but as mages, we will still need mana to land a hit, we can't spend it all (not yet, not without changing)

wet stag
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Or "normal atk"

vivid bone
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👀 this is easily deductible, but yes we can still use these

wet stag
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Magic thinblade is a choice too nearly 0 mana cost

vivid bone
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While RS will not have limitation while maintaining 100%

vivid bone
wet stag
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But iirc it has low pen anyway so still better use atk in endless for effective

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Yeah i know

vivid bone
spice zealot
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A bluelined Heretic has none of that going on - not to mention it's a steadfast class

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There's no risk to being in blueline - therefore it should be harder to reach/maintain

vivid bone
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The Current Problem: It's Not Difficult to "Fully" Achieve, But It's Impossible to Maintain

wet stag
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Yeah with mana regen per %

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It will mess up if your al gain or gear wise so spell cost and regen not neutral each other

knotty jungle
spice zealot
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This is the case for blueline, redline, bastille, Hydrus' souls, (...)

knotty jungle
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Ok. Thank you for the clarification

austere grotto
spice zealot
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I do not know the answer to that question. It's not an in-combat stat passive, so I have no expectations on if it works like that or otherwise

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I suspect it takes all stats but I could be wrong. The suspicion mainly being from the fact that it is available through selene hands and amities as well, and those are all great at high ascensions as well as low ascensions.

austere grotto
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Brye seems to say yes

loud notch
austere grotto
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I don't like the fact some passive scales and some doesn't

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The fact that lining passive doesn't increase ALs' stats makes the class less interesting to Ascend