Titan Followers + Adjustments

[wooden onyx]

That was something discussed at length in the original BB thread.

[hallow musk]

Who would even want that though? Going by the track record, anything summoner isn't really favored here

[marsh steppe]

Anti summoner gps rpg

[hallow musk]

Best answer you'd get is "there's better stuff for them to spend time on than that" or something along those lines

[fleet valley]

I wonder what if phaethon is replaced with AD? Would that make it better?

[twilit crescent]

Uhhhh

[fierce basin]

Looks random AF ngl

[hallow musk]

T10 Cernunnos at the very least if we're going by their buffing behavior

[rustic sky]

4 turn summon tho lol

Oh nvm lol

[marsh steppe]

Pet doesn't care

🫠

[wooden onyx]

Phaethon is the thing the titan... summons. It's the horses that pull her chariot.
Seems like the best changes would be around improving Phaethon (which needs to be improved anyway).

[fierce basin]

Or summon another horse

[runic tangle]

Replace summon Phaeton with Summon Phaetons

[fleet valley]

I would pay for a chariot pulling dragon.

[hallow musk]

Yeah, and asking for those change in here isn't going off-topic since if you tackle that Titan to the point of making a follower out of it, then you need to bring ALL its issues to light.

[marsh steppe]

I would pay just for an in game chariot

[wooden onyx]

I never said that was off-topic? 🤔

[hallow musk]

Well, no, but I'm preemptively stating it just in case someone does call it out

Basically, what I'm saying is

Eos follower is terrible, in terms of both usability and availability

Issues:

1.) [Summon Phaethon] respects its identity, sure, but the summon itself doesn't have a good base skill set, with [Eos' Blessing] having abysmal rates.

2.) With respect to Summoners, the class the original Titan and the replica follower is based on, its identity doesn't justify it being 300k shards since that specific usage is painfully niche, and if you're bringing it on for anything 'Titan', then you're better off with the other followers.

3.) Its summoned Phaethon is easily killed and with its tendency to summon, it'll get stuck on just summoning, resulting in a loop that has no value for the player.....for 300k shards.

[fierce basin]

After more testings of Themis without pet act on none beo, it is very strong. Feels like more DC than phoenix with added weaknesses application not so much weaker than lotan. I would say the DC proc is good enough for raids as is, not for endless. If you're a fast cast Ultima user, it may not be the best pet tho as using DC yourself is enough. For me, it's a must on deity Ursa for example.

[hallow musk]

Selfishly asking, if Eos is to remain like this, just give it to us summoners😩

As a follower.

Not a summon.

[fleet valley]

Low AL RS cov without celestial weapon can damage cap with ultimastrikes is tell me it's pretty overtuned.

[hallow musk]

It legit wouldn't even be that broken as a follower on Summoners (after you get rid of some of the Titan skills); imagine having to contest with your own 'ally' for summon slots, and your competition wants to put Phaethons, of all things, in there

[rustic sky]

fux typing up a wall of text

[wooden onyx]

I'll also do a sum up of my positions.

Eos follower is weaker than the others, and has usability issues
Issues:

• summoner followers (of which eos is one, but not the only one) effectively can't be used in dungeons without some kind of (limited) guidelight. I don't expect this change in this patch, but at some point it would be a good change.
• phaethons are weak, so summoning them isn't particularly useful. phaethon is also not a generally useful skill even for summoners. eos' blessing is very weak. overall, Phaethon being improved helps it and Eos and both need help.

Sigils that grant elemental weaknesses are far too strong
We don't need nor should we want a phoenix+lotan in one package. Ultima (and US) remains too strong relative to other player damage options, so boosting them seems counterproductive. There are other status effects that could be used instead of holy/dark weakness.

~~The atk/mag alignments of the followers seems off
Currently: Oceanus Eos and Selene have magic ults, Prometheus and Themis have physical ults.
Instead: Oceanus and Eos should be magic, Prometheus and Selene should be physical, and Themis is a utility follower whose ult doesn't matter.
Selene seems just incorrect.

Similarly, Prometheus has a hybrid kit (fey flame/towerfall magic, cleave/ultimate attack). It could just be an attacker, with firestrike and something else in place of towerfall. Selene has a partially hybrid kit (as2/lunarstrikes attack, ult magic) which the aforementioned ult change fixes.~~
Selene with mag ult works, in discussion below.
Prometheus is still odd.

Oceanus seems well placed... in a world without Spiritgarm
It's a good offensive valhallan follower similar in some ways to Ymir (stick a persistent sigil, execute on the sigil). It also has some protect%. It has DC, and spends some turns on less powerful spells (feyfrost5/frost6/towerfall) than ult. If garm is the baseline then it's very underpowered; if lind/ymir are baseline it's good.

[rustic sky]

I mean drakeblight would have produced the same result

but having dc there would more than make up for zerk 2 + 3

[fleet valley]

Auto cleanse helps a lot too.

[marsh steppe]

Imo Selene shouldn't be physical based because it's the hybrid moon titan originally and should act like a hybrid pet

Prometheus should focus on physical crit/fire build etc

As the thief titan

Even still i disagree with titans focusing on elemental spells they should use faction neutral/elementaless or physical spell

[wooden onyx]

We don't have a kind of hybrid that works in a world of gaits. It could use hybrid atk/mag for its base offense but battle buffs (atk^, snotra, etc.) don't work on that level -- everything is either an attack or a spell ultimately.

Given that it has arrowstorm and lunarstrikes as attacks, its ult should also be an attack so that you can run gaits. If it was a more ignorable skill, then it wouldn't matter as much, but it's the ult.

[marsh steppe]

What I meant was that it should have a mix of both att and mag based spells

Pet seem to use opposite att/mag spell way less if you use a gait

So it might work out

Selene should do something hybrid like being the hybrid titan after all

[wooden onyx]

I could kinda see that.

Selene: attacks {as2/lunarstrikes, both aoe}, spells {towerfall/ult, big single targets}
In horde dungeons, run Gunnr and it mostly just aoes. In raids, run Snotra and it mostly single targets.

[lethal topaz]

@wooden onyx a follow-up on your remarks following the alignments and labelling of the followers – what do you think, personally speaking, would make more sense here:

• have the followers have some sort of mini-class archetype focus (e.g., have each titan be partially representative of a t10 class in some way, with deity being the jack of all trades. Like prometheus being a strong offense showcasing RS, Oceanus being a strong mage showcasing Heretic, Selene being hybrid showcasing Deity, among others. you get the idea; Beo would likely not be fully represented here since they would be the only class that could uniquely make use of all titan BBs up to BB3)
  or
• simply divide them into different brackets of offensive/defensive/utility (e.g. physical/magic/hybrid offense, buff/utility/defensive, summon-focused, etc.)?

apologies for the massive text earlier, mobile formatting sometimes isn't the best without markdown preview

[fleet valley]

I can totally see that will play pretty well against different type of raids like using aoe against summoner type WRBs and single target every other WRBs just by switching between gunnr/snotra.

[wooden onyx]

I don't think they map onto classes very well, least of all that there are 6 classes and 5 titans.

Core identity feels like:
(All have a DC equivalent, so compare them to Phoenix to start with)

• Oceanus is big single target mage for raids and wherever. This is fine.
• Themis has defensive utility with cleanse/ward turns. This is fine.
• Eos is the summoner-follower, but summoner-followers aren't really a thing yet. Also the summon is kinda bad. But overall identity is fine.
• Selene has physical aoe and magic single target. Kinda weird, but it works...ish? A cactus, but it spends some turns buffing and not aoeing? Mostly okay.
• Prometheus is has attacks, spells, some aoe. Kinda steps on selene's toes, kinda like a physical Oceanus except for the spells? Bit weird.

[arctic trellis]

#1163927355178369185 message i tried it, and odie did give some response

[fiery cypress]

Non-ironically, I would like to see it in Beta testing

[hallow musk]

To make it a bit more balanced but also not step on its signature skill, BP, by nerfing summon amount/HP, I propose giving it negative summon AI instead. Summons will be dumb as rocks and usually cannot progress content on their own

Faced against a low HP mob? Spams defend

[wooden onyx]

the opposite of smartAI (as in, make the scalar a fraction instead of greater than 1) would be a hilarious malus 😆 dumbAI

[marsh steppe]

Give gsh some more health/def and res, render summons unable to attack or make them attack 50% of the time (somehow) and nerf battalion by a bit make the celestial classes work more like how beoa and beoh do basically

But this warrents a different discussion tab 🥜

[fiery cypress]

I advise you to create a new thread to discuss this without polluting this thread 👌

[fierce basin]

more like dumberAI

[solid sundial]

fear me

[fleet valley]

Sorry for calling you an oddball. #notsorry

I would need players to verify if lunarstrikes have high m1 against summons, especially against high AL GS. I suspect it function like Beastslayer skill.

[fickle pebble]

I agree with you that adding some sort of bandaid fix like a unique guidelight is not the solution, but this is a weird take. The titan followers all cost the same currency, so yeah, they probably should be at least pretty close in how desirable they are.

[wooden onyx]

I'm not sure how they ever could be equally desirable. As an example, if 60% of the playerbase wants a follower that does aoe damage, then the Titan that does that is going to be much more desirable than the others.

[fickle pebble]

Shard tax on Selene then. The taxes go to GS players, who can then spend them on a class line that gets new toys each patch.

[wooden onyx]

That was just an example. 😅 Maybe 90% of the playerbase secretly wants to just play around with summoner-followers, in which case only Eos is interesting and the other four are keep fodder.

[marsh steppe]

The point is not the want to play

It is if it's worth to play with

[fierce basin]

the thing is, even if you want to play summoner-pet, pheaton ? really ?

[marsh steppe]

As of now eos doesn't seem very desirable

[little oyster]

Like Fuximus stated, maybe correct Phaeton is a first step more easy to take rather than change right now Summoner BB. I would gladly see some BB improvements overall, but the 3 or 4 pets able to summons are not the top priority

(Yeah sorry @solid sundial , I do like your builds, you are incredible with them x) )

[fierce basin]

fixing phaeton will not fix eos as a buffing summon only is not what you're looking for when playing a summoner-pet.

[little oyster]

Finishing the work on pets and BB sure is on NF list of things to do. Sooner rather than later, I pray. I don't think the whole pet titans fix have to wait until then

[stable mango]

The only reason I’d see myself use Eos is if summons persisted through dungeon floors, they might make good punching bags for high anguish dungeons

[fickle pebble]

I don’t think the expectation should be that each ends equally purchased, but striving to make them equally desired by the people who want them is a good goal I think. Throwing up hands and saying “well we can’t get this right” isn’t ideal.

Regarding summons for other classes, the fact that they are punished in both stats and duration directly or indirectly causes less emphasis on getting new summon mechanics right

Perhaps a world where everyone is interested in new summons is a world where more interesting summons are worth spending time designing

#deleteguidelight

[hallow musk]

Imo, the more beneficial route to take is give a pseudo-guidelight to all the others with Benefactor

Similar to how Tamer gives BB

My bad if this was meant to be a joke though

[fickle pebble]

I haven’t thought about this enough to be fully sure what my preferred solution is, but my gut response is that I would want to see summons “decay” as the energies that pulled them in to your world weaken. And the summon classline prevents this decay either entirely or extremely well comparatively. So summons are strong but ephemeral

Not a joke

One could add a series of spells to refresh these summons, so a non summoner class could poach ways to play more summon focused. That would make them more like their brethren, while also ensuring summons aren’t just a fire and forget ability for everyone else

[hallow musk]

That's..actually a refreshing spin on that

[wooden onyx]

'Equally desirable by the people who want them' is very different from 'equally desirable'. At no point were hands thrown up to say the former can't be done.

[fickle pebble]

Not an attempt to straw man you, more a statement about good design goals for dear readers.

[fickle pebble]

My current design project came to me in a dream, I am at my most powerful in the middle of the night apparently

Or at least most delusional

[solid sundial]

i see a huge potential on eos. pros= follower has decent dmg and debuffs to help out in new builds, follower has ability to summon some meatshields ( phateon has chance to be summoned twice) follower has decent buffs aswell if i remember it right. cons= the follower can be used in raids/pvp? effectively and basicvcly not viable at all in other content. the summons are cool, but they are not very usefull. why? well the summon has very low stats and it has low chance to summon 2 phatheons. which gets oneshotted by anything basicly, so even onryo does better at summoning bc summon dead has high chance to summon multiple entities, even if the larrys dont deal any dmg. (summon phatheon<summon dead) the dmg that phatheon deals is so minimal that i would prefer summon dead any day.

even if the cost is not worth it im going to buy eos so i can try out how he performs truly in time

[hallow musk]

Wait no-

[hallow musk]

You can just try it out on Beta

[solid sundial]

i know

[hallow musk]

No need to waste your hard-earned shards

[solid sundial]

well i can always grind more shards if i want any other reblica

my hearth beats to eos even if its trash xD

[marsh steppe]

Odin has fallen to the hype side

Nothing can stop his curiosity

He will use his shards even if he gets nothing

[hallow musk]

Currently, you can't even test it out on Training Cactus cuz it just wipes the floor with them horses

[solid sundial]

this is why i prefer summon dead XD bc atleast skellies have second chance xD

[marsh steppe]

Leave the horsies alone 😭

[rustic sky]

nefr training cactus

[tight stump]

Well one or them useful for rs ?

Phoenix will still be a good chicken

[twilit crescent]

Themis

[runic tangle]

themis is best for Rs/Heretic/Gilga/Deity/Beo Hydrus

[tight stump]

Well

Keeping phoenix

Come Here true lord

[marsh steppe]

In hoa open beta I don't think Themis mark is doing anything

The number is still raid and the damage increase is unnoticeable

Does anyone know what's the percentage increase for that mark?

[twilit crescent]

50% for regular holy damage

Utlima should be 140%

[acoustic sage]

Updated replica followers should be hitting beta shortly, including the recent changes of removal of Holy/Dark weaknesses, plus adding some new summons to Eos

[marsh steppe]

Mhm I'll do some more testing

[twilit crescent]

Thanks boss man

[marsh steppe]

Damn i couldn't even get the taste of dc plus weakness

[twilit crescent]

Well you can still do that you'll just have to cast DC yourself

[marsh steppe]

Yeah

[marsh steppe]

Would be funny to see the pet do both though but that was indeed a bit overpowered so its fine

[dim sluice]

I'll throw my hat in the ring. I'd love to see a replica improve hit chance. Perhaps by improving dex or through rune debuff.

[lilac hollow]

may i ask if the rune for themis and selene do anything else after the removal of weakness or just act as a rune for ult without additional effect?

[dim sluice]

Themis losing holy weakness maybe can bring back titan protection. I definitely enjoy that buff in towers

And in endless

[solid sundial]

Now this looks good

[twilit crescent]

It feels as useless as before

but i dont really care for summoner followers ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[solid sundial]

Would it be op if followers had somekind "starting" stat for summon stat%

50-100%?

[twilit crescent]

Oh i thought that was the case

[solid sundial]

Followers have summon stat based on your summonstat%(let me know if im wrong with this one)

So 0%

Atleast it feels like it if it is not the case.

[fickle pebble]

I acually thought there was a penalty for summons not summoner summoned

say it 10x fast

[solid sundial]

I would not be suprised if other classes had negative summon stat

[fickle pebble]

#1149069359646519428 message

konq's list has it. no summoner passive, -90%

maybe followers get around that

[solid sundial]

Its even worse than I thought

I would be happy if summon followers had +90% summon stat To make it 0%

[fickle pebble]

truly an elegant solution

[solid sundial]

Ik right

[dusk lodge]

I've been trying Selene on BeoA/Tamer and I notice she uses lunarstrikes on enemies that are immune to it. Is that intended? I thought pet AI would try to avoid this scenario

[rustic sky]

that doesnt work for aoe moves

[twilit crescent]

Apparently lunarstrikes consists of multiple elements and i guess the ai has trouble with that (same thing can be seen with ancient jinn summon)

[dusk lodge]

I see, thanks

[placid lion]

New Eos is nice for fighting businessmage flax in the AW I suppose

Don't suppose mighty griffin procs windswept too often either?

[cold hazel]

Figured I would offer my 2 cents for Thief. If Titans are meant to coincide with their classline itd be interesting if Prometheus had one of the T. Crit++ skills. Any follower that could offer crit use before has always been negated by the fact that it is all it can do and since that can be built into gear it becomes pointless. If on Prom then it could give interesting potential to not gearing crit so not needing to reduce stats via Ashens at all and instead work around the RNG of it casting. Not meta breakign but a fun diff way of playing. As well as another Rune effect that I think would be really good and could be on any Titan is doing maybe % Health damage per hit. Skills like Hexacut, Swordplay, WP are a nonfactor in current gameplay. A rune now giving a substantial damage boost to these multihit skills could be a fun way to give the follower a niche and buff a mostly untouched route of gameplay in the endgame.

[gaunt gale]

It has DC and blight - yet both at a slower rate.
I find it very balanced and good!

[weary arrow]

With Eos follower you get the benefit of AI not targetting you. Probably good to cheese raids with since with no guidelight passive no good in gauntlets

Or could have it in kingdom gauntlets/better ways to attack territories in their current state

[runic tangle]

The bad part of the T.Crit^^ idea is that Prometheus would choose every time between that skill and Titan's Power, if he gave another crit buff it should be one that is not temporary so that he does not always use it again

btw, I don't know if I wrote everything correctly

[cold hazel]

yeah thought of this but figured it would be fun enough to be worth building some pet act and banking on the constant skill use to keep them up. Then can run temp boosts like the new nuts to keep it live f.e.

[ocean wadi]

With the removal of holy and dark weakness on themis and selene sigil, I am hoping if we can get a replacement secondary effect on them

[wooden onyx]

t.crit^^ alongside t.all^^^ honestly might make promo too strong, as far as utility followers go. I do like giving it some kind of crit identity though.

[cold hazel]

ehh I think the fact itd need to be juggled is the balancing factor to it. I cant imagine a world where you are seeing them both with consistent uptime.

When they are itd feel amazing but there would be plenty of times you are just seeing one or the other

ofc could be balanced with T. Crit+ but then i am more inline with Jaoks where it sort of just feels like its diluting DC casts then helping

[runic tangle]

with T.crit ^^ many changes could be made to various Builds

I don't see it so bad now

[cold hazel]

i like it as trading consistency for damage. The damage boost isnt massive like weakness applications f.e. but dropping ashens boosts your base damage and allows you to run some diff adorns. But like I said now you cant have 100% crit all the time. Realistically I cant imagine itd be better then running 100% crit but I think itd be lots of fun to play with. Having 100% crit with base DC I can only imagine would remain the meta play.

[hallow musk]

Maybe reworking Eos' BB into scaling summon stats based on ALs could work?

Considering how the other titans already cover the attack/mag part of BBs and skills anyway, Eos doesn't really need to go in that direction as well

[solid sundial]

Or just remove the - 90% summon stat from player when using eos/other summoner follower.

[hallow musk]

No, definitely scale it with AL for a GS-like sense of progression

[solid sundial]

Imo that could end badly, bc there could be bad scenarios where beos could outperform gs at their own game

[hallow musk]

1% of additive summon stat per AL, meaning if you want to go anywhere competitive as a Beo parading as GS, you'd 330 ALs minimum

~200 if you run Bene

Also, I'm trying out your own playstyle on Eos

[solid sundial]

Dont forget that beos base stats are much higher than gs, + pet

[hallow musk]

It's garbage, but it's fun garbage lmao

[solid sundial]

Lol

[hallow musk]

Actually considering HoC-ing to Beo solely cuz of Eos

[hallow musk]

IF this change goes through

[hallow musk]

True but being Beo, they're more or less limited to what their followers could summon; no doubt they'd limit it to the lesser summons instead of the endgame ones

I'll gladly eat my words though if "lesser summons" here included Buggane of all things lmao

[solid sundial]

I fear that beo would not need 200-300 als To outperform gs. 1 followers ignore summoning turns. 2.redline +follower dmg can be huge... 3. If Summons scale with Al. They could deal decent dmg+ added protection. 4. Base stats+acces To all gears can end up super annoying tank with alot protection and dmg In general

[hallow musk]

Yeah but baseline is that they'll, at the very least, need a hundred to outperform GS and even then, are limited in their selection of summons

[solid sundial]

Yea if we look it from only summon dmg perspective. But adding it To the "Big" picture. I think it would be bad idea. But my fears can be wrong tho.
I have seen what beoA+Oracle+onryo can do already and Im not sure if it would be balanced To have Al scaling for summon stat

[hallow musk]

Oracle? What's it for?

[solid sundial]

2x protection

[hallow musk]

Ahhh, I see, I see

[solid sundial]

I have only 2x2% and still its very annoying

[hallow musk]

Summoning Followers should come with a lower protect chance since it can summon meatshields then

[solid sundial]

Onryo has no protection chance

If used with beoO

BeoA adds a bit for every follower

[hallow musk]

Damage-wise, how does it perform?

[solid sundial]

Onryo is working only in pvp tho. Nekrosis2 has nice Pen and deals 80-100k dmg with few buffs. Same for the wind spell

And if you go full on protection, its enough dmg To win

But for examble ophion. Imagine if fafnir would scale with Al? You could do crazy BP builds

[hallow musk]

Yeah, but you're gonna need a lot more ALs to pull off any crazy BP builds

[rustic sky]

You can have ascended summons if gsh can use followers

[solid sundial]

Ascended Summons would be a dream for beo summoner like me

[solid sundial]

150k hp bethirs are enough To make deitys hit a dmg cap

[hallow musk]

That's cuz those are Beithirs (and Deity); if you want to reach those kinds of numbers as a Summoner-Beo bringing your own summons to the field, you'll need to allot way more ALs to get them up to that kind of chunk

[solid sundial]

Not sure if I calculated this right, but without the - 90% summon stat reduction.

With 3x ophion gear+ 2x forest staffs

But that is not the case atm bc non summoners have - 90% summon stat.

[rustic sky]

where does the 1.8 come from?

I think the -90% malus means your summons only have 10% of their normal base stats. That would mean with their normal stats they'd have 10x as much

assuming you dont have summon stats from other sources

[solid sundial]

1,8 is the 80% that comes from gear

[rustic sky]

it doesnt stack multiplicatively

[solid sundial]

Ah

[rustic sky]

I think at least

I think you start with 10% summon stats, and then the rest is additive like normal

how much hp do your beithirs have then?

[solid sundial]

On beta

But i do have some summon stat

3x chimera gear + staffs

[rustic sky]

yeah I cant do anything with that because I cant summon fafnir as gs lol

[solid sundial]

Yea

[rustic sky]

how much hp do your own summoned beithirs have?

and pls show the gear

trying to find out how that -90% malus works

and the gear?

[rustic sky]

seems like it indeed works like this. Beithir has 75625 base hp. You had 43% summon stats from gear. Your beithirs had 40081 hp and thats what you get when you do (0.1+0.43)*75625. So you have the base 10% stats, and then 43% from gear, so 10+43=53% the stats of a normal beithir

[static patio]

Since Selene/Themis Runes lost their Weakness what will they do now as extra effect?

Since others have Blind/Freeze/Damage dot

[hallow musk]

I propose changing Eos' Blind effect to Poison/Burn/Paralyze and give the Blind to Themis while Selene gets Starstruck

Honestly, I'm not sure what kind of ailment fits a summon build, but for the latter two though, Themis is already wearing a blindfold while Selene takes from the Moon image which reflects a star's light

[marsh steppe]

Starstruck seems a bit underwhelming in comparison to paralysis/blind tbh

At least the other two has some uses

Any effect that can make the enemy loose a turn will be much appreciated

[hallow musk]

Starstruck's fine since Selene's already got two useful AoEs, one physical and the other reportedly being stronger against beasts/summons

She can take the lesser, but more thematically accurate effect

[marsh steppe]

I highly disagree with that starstruck is borderline useless

And it isn't even thematic

A moon isn't a star

[hallow musk]

.....

Where does a moon's light come from?

[marsh steppe]

Give it to Prometheus since he burns like a sun 🌞

[marsh steppe]

It reflects of the sun obviously

[hallow musk]

What is the sun?

[marsh steppe]

What is this elementary school?

Maybe if starstruck was more useful then it would be fine

[hallow musk]

Yeah well, I didn't expect you to actually state this lmao

[marsh steppe]

Well yeah

According to the game Selene is the titan of moon and hybrid

[hallow musk]

What would you suggest replacing it with?

Moonstruck?

[marsh steppe]

If we are going to be thematic

Startruck is nowhere close

Maybe a mark that increases hybrid spell damage

Would be more appropriate

[hallow musk]

...I mean, all the others' effect has a status ailment along with them

Giving it a hybrid boost on that effect seems unfair to the others, no?

[marsh steppe]

Prom gets damage at end of turn no?

Ultima isn't hybrid so it isn't easy to exploit either

[hallow musk]

I'm not saying anything about Ultima, that's a different issue

[marsh steppe]

Indeed

My point is Selene is a hybrid titan

[hallow musk]

Damage on turn checks out since Burn functions the same in that regard

[marsh steppe]

But it says "damage is added at the end of turn"

Not to mention that increases damage of those type of spells

In the description

[hallow musk]

Yeah? That's what burn does, both in-game and irl

[marsh steppe]

• Rune of Prometheus functions as a sigil for Titan's Destruction, and adds damage on turn

From what odie posted earlier

Unless ofcourse this part was removed from the beta in the recent update?

[runic tangle]

it's like a normal status effect, I don't think Prometheus has to lose that

[marsh steppe]

I don't either

But I think Selene and Themis should gain something similar but unique

Too

[lilac hollow]

the easiest for Odie to do is just give selene -def and res to fit the hybrid theme, Themis -atk and mag for all the defensive augment it have

[marsh steppe]

Is that supposed to be opposite?

[lilac hollow]

the debuff applies to enemy so you do slightly more damage with selene and tank slightly better with Themis rune

never typing on mobile again

[marsh steppe]

Eh very cliche

Themis rune i mean

Better to have defensive buffs affect player imo

[lilac hollow]

yea it's not unique at all but better than nothing

I'm pretty sure Odie will figure something more creative to add to it

[marsh steppe]

Hopefully

[fiery cypress]

When your follower is acting Dumbr but you didn't use a call :

[fleet valley]

That's always the case for AoE skills for summons/followers.

[fiery cypress]

Yeah I know but having a Follower AI that can count the immunities on each enemy would be nice so they use the best AoE attack

[fleet valley]

SmartAI only function for single target skills but never AoE it seems.

[fiery cypress]

For Prometheus, he needs a crit buff, also maybe a stronger crit skill than Sortie

[bitter nebula]

Should also add a T. Atk 1/2/3 on it

[fiery cypress]

Don't know, but for a follower dedicated to Thief a mix of crit and att would be appreciated

Like an Evasive Strikes II ?
Giving Att, Dex, Crit temporary

[runic tangle]

T.Crit ^^ please

[fiery cypress]

Give us a buff with t.Crit(100%), t.Crit(50%), t.Crit(5%)

[timber gorge]

What if titan protection or bonds gave crit protection? Like lowering the damage that we take from crits by X %?

[fiery cypress]

I was afraid that Oceanus was too water focused, but actually he only lacks damage :

[worn quest]

Yeah.. I was saving up shards to buy all 5 of them since I enjoy collecting followers, but right now it doesn't look like any of them are all that great for BeoA unfortunately. Ah well.

[runic tangle]

Selene

[arctic trellis]

i have no firsthand experience on her but even Selene looks lukewarm at best. For pet based beo you want them to be a consistent damage dealer and Selene doesnt look like it could achieve that

[hallow musk]

Better get some first hand experience then, she's decent at the very least

[arctic trellis]

For towers/dungeons ? enlighten me

because if she is designed as a follower to compete with kektus (aoe), having the rune (debuff) skill is sligthly weird design i feel.

btw is lunarstrikes a dark elemental spell? since the rune applies darkness weakness

[fiery cypress]

I would have said Light, but actually many monsters share Light and Dark immunities/resistances

[static canyon]

The dark weakness has been removed.

[static canyon]

Let Selene's mark give dragonblight?

[arctic trellis]

wait so then what is selene rune specialty? just aoe marking?

[fiery cypress]

Selene is the closest Titan to achieve a satisfactory state
She needs some spells to become Physical, and she'll be good
Titanseal -> Titanstrike
Rune damage magical -> physical

And Towerfall is a signature move, but I would have liked a physical variant

NF is quite stubborn to make every cool / unique abilities as magical

[static canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/lets-get-physical-olivia-newton-john-working-out-gym-zumba-gif-18904174

[arctic trellis]

Towerfall should be physical, you drop bricks on your opponent

how physical can one get if not that

granted its magical enchanted bricks, but its still bricks

[fiery cypress]

Because those aren't normal bricks ! They are ... magical !

[static canyon]

I 100% agree. But it still cracks me up to bring up physics for a fantasy land with magic. ;p

[static canyon]

The light and dark weakness was removed due to it aiding ultimas. There's discussion further up about what to replace it with.

[fiery cypress]

Odie : "Okay, let's make their damage physical"
Me : "Excellent !"
Odie : "But I didn't say they would use attack stat"
Me : ...

[acoustic sage]

As physical is an element, it may be better to use the Spell / Skill language used in-game

[fiery cypress]

Well Selene needs to replace her spells by skills

And Titans that use mostly skills would benefit greatly of a skill variant of the spell "Towerfall"

[wooden onyx]

fwiw, we had discussed leaving her with a hybrid moveset and it kinda works out.

In horde dungeons, run Gunnr and she mostly uses arrowstorm/lunarstrikes.
In raids, run Snotra and she mostly uses towerfall/magical ult.

[fiery cypress]

At my knowledge, I don't remember a single follower who had both skills and spells and where used efficiently in different contents

[wooden onyx]

It was consciously avoided in design for a while afaict, but ever since we've gotten the change where AI respects battle buffs (atk^, atk-, etc.) we could make more use of wider kits where parts of it get disabled based on dynamic in-battle choices.

Medusa is the only other one that comes to mind as a recent valhallan design with a hybrid kit. It's quite similar to Selene, in fact.

[fiery cypress]

And what follower did she outperform ?

[wooden onyx]

Well nothing, because she was competing with Cactus and any of the big raid followers (now Garm, previously Lindy/Ymir and maybe Fjalar/FeyChim).

[fiery cypress]

I don't count event follower, they are design to be stronger or different from the regular bestiary

But yeah, by splitting the design you weaken it too

unless you create OP abilities for the follower, so they can outperform from both skills and spells

EHM Stonefire

(Not too crazy, but it does the magic)

Actually, Medusa can have a very interesting place in Anguish, but I will have to do some testing

I'm checking again the movepool of Medusa, but I don't see anything very interesting in her skills ...

Arrowstorm is good, but compared to Stonefire ...

[wooden onyx]

From a purely valhallan (damaging follower) perspective:

• All 5 are worse at raiding than blue dog. Good luck competing with that. 😅
• Eos compares against Ophion in a somewhat interesting way, for the non-meta summoner-follower thing.
• Selene (with Gunnr, requires Gunnr) is kinda like a cactus sidegrade in horde. Ultimately it's going to spend turns on things that aren't aoe damage, which slows down horde clear.
• Oceanus and Selene (with Snotra) are kinda like an ymir sidegrade in raids. But again, no competition for raid speed when dog exists.
• Prometheus and Themis (with Gunnr) are kinda like a lindy sidegrade in raids. But again, no competition for raid speed when dog exists.

[fiery cypress]

I see Selene as an upgrade of Cactus
access of Lunarstrikes get rid of Physical immunity which is extra annoying in normal horde
combined with Titans Power, you can wipe effortlessly Bosses, even with Anguish
She can perform well in Tower too
The best is that she can be bought anytime for 300k tower shard (with enough Guild level)

Arisen Spiritgarm outperforms in a lot of content, it has be tuning down in PvP, and I don't think the nerf will end soon

But for its defense, you can only buy him 2-3 times in the year and has some counterparts

[wooden onyx]

I definitely would not consider Selene a straight upgrade over Cactus.

Notably:

• Lunarstrikes hits against immunes and AI doesn't account for individual immunity when using aoe. So you have something to hit phys immune, but now you've introduced a new element/immunity.
• It's going to give DC on some turns which is not needed if you're just clearing weak enemies (low-tier/low-anguish).
• You ~have to run Gunnr to direct the AI to spam the aoe skills, but Gunnr is a weakness in places where enemies can hit your Resistance and defenses matter.

[fiery cypress]

• AI has a lot to improve in horde fight / teamplay, it is a fact
• True, but we have access to equipment to elongate the buff duration
• True, but using Gait doesn't guarantee to use at 100% skills or spells, but increase greatly their respective usage

[worn quest]

If the titan followers had some sort of ability to offset the negative reductions from calls, would that be too overpowered? I haven't messed around with them much in beta.

[fiery cypress]

I just don't see what an hybrid Selene has more than other Titans ...

I can understand that thanks to Calls combined with Gaits you can control well you follower, but every Titans have Runes + Seal/Strikes

[wooden onyx]

Selene could just be full attack. Ult attack, get rid of or replace Towerfall, job done. I don't think it's necessary to make her that way and the hybrid moveset is mostly an homage to her being emblematic of hybrid gameplay (to the extent that it exists).

[fiery cypress]

mmh, I see, unfortunately she won't be any use for Beowulf Hydrus because the BBs aren't custom for each titans

[wooden onyx]

Hydrus (like all player damage classes, heretic realm gilga deity) is likely just going to want Themis as a Phoenix sidegrade that has Cleanse and maybe enjoy the shard drop rate increase from BB1.

[fiery cypress]

If you really want to have an hybrid Selene, then we need a spell that will give an identity to its Magical Part, since the Physical is AoE oriented

[worn quest]

I like the idea of the runes system, but in my limited testing they didn't apply quick enough or last long enough most of the time. Altering that through BB would probably make it more appealing for Beo, as far as damage goes.

[outer spade]

Be cool for prometheus to have blood shift. Be nice to have a pet that auto casts it, and leaned into the thief identity

[runic tangle]

luckily bloodshift is no longer necessary thanks to Rs(Corvus/Dorado) so Crit is better i think

[outer spade]

Be cool thematically and I think other classes won’t be that interested in using it

Thus more identity then anything else

[fiery cypress]

Bloodshift prevent healing, it's quite a burden in some cases
Plus it's another buff combined with Titan's power

[outer spade]

I think the buff having a burden case is more interesting then temp crit

[runic tangle]

Although it makes it "interesting", it would only work for Base Rs, and by the time you buy a Titan replica you should already have a celestial class of Rs (Corvus/Dorado)
and it wouldn't work for other classes, bloodshift would only make Titan's Power be used less often

[outer spade]

Interesting. It would be sad to never use realm again

[fleet valley]

Can we have a mini-vote if Eos follower in beta in a decent spot? ✅ for yes and ❌ for no. Also if possible, the reason for the vote. Thanks

[hallow musk]

Don't think it's the direction summoner followers should be heading to, the whole thing plays out like it's imitating the summoning part only in form, none of the substance; it doesn't help that 2/3 summons are muddled with AI problems so there's that to consider as well.

Personally, I'd give it a check since Eos looks so cute in her mini-chariot cuz there is a niche to be had in her kind of follower, but looking at it objectively, it still doesn't quite know what it wants to be

[fierce basin]

Summoner-pet are already barely useful, now if the summon itself is not useful it ends up in being double useless (or useless² idk)

[solid sundial]

Summoner followers should have atleast normal summon stat To be usefull. (Not the - 90%)

[smoky fern]

Just tried out the New Titan in game, and loving it so far.

Is Selene 's Lunar Strikes meant to hit every enemy? If so, that is SO AWESOME!

[hallow musk]

It's now an AoE but gets immuned by dark/light

[smoky fern]

Ohhhhh!!! That's an awesome way to balance that, love it!

[gaunt gale]

Is themis & selene rune bugged?

Ultima wont get weakpoint dmg

[runic tangle]

Odie: Updated replica followers should be hitting beta shortly, including the recent changes of removal of Holy/Dark weaknesses, plus adding some new summons to Eos

[gaunt gale]

So... The themis/selene seals are basically dead weight now?^^"

Damn i really thought we were over the refunding demands :'(

I mean in all honestly, theres not much that changed about themis - she still has a lot of useless skills - but now its half of em :'(

Well i think cleanse is that good to justify that somehow

We were so close... Now it got taken away so close from a full victory.
Damn...

[acoustic sage]

You can scroll up to see the hesitations about making another ultima abuse tool, and some suggestions for the Runes' secondary effects. As of right now, they still function for the primary purpose of Titan's Seal/Titan's Strike

imo, all followers are better than they were before today. gloomposting won't get us anywhere 🙂

[gaunt gale]

I agree to that they are in a way better place now - just to clarify, they will get a replacement effect?

If yes, then i didnt say anything. Just was worried.
Thank you for explaining ^~^

Looking at beowulf raid speed, i gladly take another ultima abuser tho

But im fine with having another effect on the rune ^~^

Also sorry, i got a bit overwhelmed and scared

[gaunt gale]

Forwarded from the general chat in Regards to Selene/Themis having no rune effect atm:

If the rune has no effect, its 2 dead slots on selene/themis for the fact that those are 2 skills that do nothing in relation to the others - no class will benefit (in relativity to the other skills) from the small bonus damage except beowulf and for beowulf the pets have too much skills.

If we look for rune effects... For selene i can see a simple defense reduction and for themis an attack reduction, or vica versa

[runic tangle]

Replica Themis/Selene(Selene is the Best for Beowulf) are the best of all the Titan replicas, Eos is still 3rd since it fulfills its function of giving meatshields for PvP while it has Titan's Power (Deific Channel), the last ones are Prometheus and Oceanus yes, but they are better than before at least

[gaunt gale]

I fully agree! I may have overreacted earlier.
Yet i still think they need seal effect replacement or a very high chance to proc other titans seals

Cause i'll take basically stunlocking the enemy once themis decides to press the rune

[fleet valley]

I think others disagree on Eos.

[runic tangle]

Summoner followers may not be that good for offensive purposes after all, but it still works

[little oyster]

They are indeed in a better state than before. And I prefer going step by step in buffing pets rater than giving them big buffs and then nerf them because they would be seen as too op

But from what I saw here and with other players in beta, a bit of work and love are required to make all the 5 of them shine as they should

[fleet valley]

So in what content would you use Eos for? Since you think Eos is in a better state?

[runic tangle]

PvP or raids to have Deific Channel and some meatshields, but I prefer Chimera for raids and Themis for PvP

[fleet valley]

You said it youself. You would prefer to use the other 2 followers rather than Eos for said content. That pretty sum up why people think Eos are not useful. Don't forgot that Eos also cost you 300k shards to purchase. Others would rather spend that 300k shards on something that is better than Eos.

[runic tangle]

Now that I think about it, Eos is better for PvP than Themis, for all non-Valhallan classes of course, if you get enough pet act

[runic tangle]

I would prefer eos if I wasn't Realmshifter

For raids

[fleet valley]

Let's say you have enough act rate for Eos, you still don't get any summon to be your meatshield until after turn 1. Most pvp usually ends within 5 turns and anything more than that usually points towards inefficient offense/defense.

[fleet valley]

Even for raids, some followers like lindwurm would do more damage over the same period of time than Eos with summons. I do understand that some players would prefer to take it slow but more often people would choose efficiency.

[runic tangle]

then it is no longer the followers problem i think

[runic tangle]

ah, I was referring to non-valhallan classes, Beowulf obviously has better options

[fleet valley]

Even as non-valhallan classes, you probably would choose a follower that give the player boost than relying on Eos and her summons?

[runic tangle]

Titan's Power (Deific Channel) is the best boost that followers give (except berserk maybe), so yes

[fleet valley]

Wait. Are you telling me that playing as a non-valhallan class, you would rhada Titan's power to boost your summons?

[runic tangle]

no, I meant that it is a follower that gives Titan's Power and also summons meatshields, so I would use it, it is the best summoner follower possibly

[lilac hollow]

being the best summoner follower is like being the best in 1st grade class when you're going up against uni graduates

that architype is just really bad to begin with if you look at the other options

I also don't see how summon meatshield is a thing considering without summon protection passive, most AI will just directly target the players

when I did gsh in live PvP even blue doggo will go for me directly all the time unless the non-existent summon protection chance happened

[runic tangle]

Again, for non-valhallans

[lilac hollow]

exactly for non-valhallans

[dim sluice]

Heretic perspective:

Was really excited with the old Themis replica and was using it heavily in towers and endless. Mainly ward turns and titans protection.

Current version of themis will probably no longer be used by me in its current form.

😢

[lilac hollow]

why would you even use summon meatshield when you can just straight up tank the hit and use a better follower

[lilac hollow]

yea I heard it lost t. def / res ++ or something

[runic tangle]

I think there is a 5% chance that they will protect you, but it is better than using Ashen Phoenix which only gives you Deific Channel.

[lilac hollow]

DC with 100% consistency compared to 75% on Titan's power though

also don't forget other titans exist which give the same Titan's power but also with better perks

[runic tangle]

75% on Titan's Power with summon meatshields

[dim sluice]

Yeah. Odie doesn't want it to be a replacement of the Burd. But I would love other options besides Burd.

[lilac hollow]

yea and summon meatshield isn't worth making up for the 25% loss compared to ashen / loss of other niches provided by other titans like themis

[runic tangle]

themis is still the best for most content among all Titan Replicas

[dim sluice]

Odie said Oceanusis supposed to the one to look at for casters. What abilities does Oceanus have?

[runic tangle]

Themis is no better than eos for PvP

[lilac hollow]

yea that's because you don't use Themis in PvP to begin with

[runic tangle]

oceanus and Prometheus are the lowest performing among titan replicas sadly

[dim sluice]

Sad to hear.

[lilac hollow]

why would you when you can run something like VSS / greater yokai for debuff, arisen nagg to kill second chance, or ashen for consistent tank build in live pvp

[runic tangle]

Possibly yes, it is a good replacement for Ashen Phoenix if you have a good amount of pec act

[lilac hollow]

it is not it falls off when you use pet act if you compare the success rate

and if you're using ashen to begin with you're probably running a tank build which the lack of consistency can get you killed

it should break even at 6 blackened eye (8 + 12) * 0.75 = 15% on titan vs 3+12 =15% on phoenix

it get worse the more act rate you have

[runic tangle]

Likewise, Eos performs well, it fulfills its function, I see Eos better despite Titan's Power failing than Ashen Phoenix

[acoustic sage]

Hi there 🙂

I said after we make more improvements:)

[lilac hollow]

I disagree with this since most players (and even AI like blue doggo) will just be targetting the player and it is very rare to get to a point where there are enough summon on the field if eos is the only one summoning

as I said I was trying gsh in live PvP for ~1 hour and despite having summon protection passive + a VSS on the map at all time, follower like blue doggo that I faced will always hit the player if the summon protection doesn't proc

most players also won't target your summon straight up because it take effort to do when they could've just directly go for you and end the battle

[fleet valley]

In short if you don't have Battalions passive, the summons won't be protecting you.

[runic tangle]

Likewise, 5% protection works, it is not a high amount but it still works

• Titan's Power it's not bad at all

[dim sluice]

Ah, gotcha. I'll try to stay tuned and give my input.ty

For me my largest concern in endless as a heretic is being able to hit high level mobs. That was a suggestion I posed a while back.

And my feedback is that i use arisen phoenix for almost everything except high level anguish (I use Steward Golem or arisen Stonewarg). Then I bought Themis and was very happy with that follower as it was. It's definitely a feel sad now. I was able to push further into endless on corvus because of the increased buff durations of titan's protection and the corvus passive.

I'm also trying analyze the phrasenot a direct replacement for arisen phoenix. From my perspective, for anything to compete with phoenix it will have to be be able to replace it.

If that means situationally, that would be cool:

A follower for anguish.
For towers
For AOE
For endless
Etc.

[hallow musk]

As was to be expected from the Follower, Selene makes the floor squeaky clean everywhere as she mops it with anyone unfortunate enough to face her

[mighty nebula]

How is Selene compare to Fey cactus?

[hallow musk]

I'd say she hits harder, although Cactus is more consistent

[mighty nebula]

Is the runes of ... spells deal magical or physics damage?

[hallow musk]

Magical

[mighty nebula]

Then Selene has 2 physics spells and 2 magical spells 🤔
Can't use gait without downside

[hallow musk]

Yeah, that's fine; she's supposed to be based on Hybrid anyway and it's more the gaits' fault for the downsides, not hers

[ocean wadi]

imo, other than selene (competitive as a sidegrade for cactus), the rest of the followers are just not worth the price

[twilit crescent]

What about themis?

[ocean wadi]

There is an argument that themis will be as good as phoenix. but I disagree and heres why:

• Themis might have higher act rate than phoenix, but titan's power only have 75% success rate. I will consider it even with phoenix as a DC caster.
• 3 of the spell in its skillset (Rune of Themis, Titan's Strike, Towerfall) are unlikely to cause any meaningful dmg if used by a non-beo. At least the spell used by phoenix have good secondary effect for building ward. Both phoenix and themis do not have exceptional act rate, so you will want each pet action to be as useful as possible and not wasting it on useless spell

[twilit crescent]

Rune of themis is a blind and towerfall has a chance to stun so they aren't totally useless

[ocean wadi]

thats rune of eos for blind? is it?

[twilit crescent]

I think so?

[ocean wadi]

cos rune of themis dont have any additional effect afaik

[mighty nebula]

What? Runes cause effect too? I thought they just for increase tower seal/strikes damage?

[twilit crescent]

Oh rune of eos is the blind

@mighty nebula

Weaknesses have been removed since

[ocean wadi]

Personally, I hated that wyvern's song 2 only have a 75% success rate, so you can imagine my feeling about titan's power

[mighty nebula]

So they got replace with debuff? Holy weakness into blind, Dark weakness into sleep?

[ocean wadi]

there is no replacement

[twilit crescent]

They got removed, no replacement

[mighty nebula]

Oh 😦

[twilit crescent]

I just thought themis was blind because well

She blind

[mighty nebula]

Then rune of Themis is the worst then, other runes either have additional effect or is AoE effect

[fiery cypress]

We should discuss about effects applied by runes, we don't want another elemental exploit

But I don't want it to be another status renamed and can't be immuned

it should align with the follower's design

[static canyon]

I can get behind the holy blindness and dark sleepiness.

[gaunt gale]

What we should all consider with the Tower pets, for the fact they are endgame pets:

• Gaits
• Nobody except beo's want raw damage moves on their pets
• No overcrowded moveset

And i think that it doesn't matter if phoenix is better or worse... Phoenix is old and wants rest :(

I do think the pets are in a better state now tho.
But we're not quite there yet.
We should try to solve the overcrowd problem / fix selene so beo's can really use her

[fiery cypress]

Pheonix should still the best DC user + ward keeper

[ocean wadi]

Second this. Realistically, nobody want raw dmg move on their pet unless they are a beo

[arctic trellis]

no gaits pls
can you imagine running tower with them and suddenly you are under snotra while fighting immo lords?

[gritty iron]

but need lots of act rate

[arctic trellis]

or anguish

[fiery cypress]

Gaits are a bad idea, in some hard contents you want to keep all you def/res

Plus for Beo, Gaits are a tool to control better your follower if they have both skills and spells

However, there are other signature moves from Titans :

• Titan's Protection
• Titan's Lesser Wall
• Build Tower

We could try to add / replace existing abilities by more interesting

[fiery cypress]

Themis :

• replace Towerfall by Titan's Protection or Build Tower

Prometheus :

• replace Towerfall by Titan's Protection or Titan's Lesser Wall

Oceanus : is a magical follower and should keep Towerfall

Selene : needs a spell that will complete her hybrid skill/spell set

Eos : first needs love before deciding what she needs

[mighty nebula]

I prefer current Themis, thank to Titan protection remove, now she cast Titan power much more often, i don't want an additional buff spell that will reduce chance of Titan power

[outer spade]

Yah i agree. More easy access to buffs always good

[static meteor]

Thanks for this thread and all this nice work !
It was IMO better to keep themis with Tdef/res++ to help some classes in anguish dungeons. It was a nice bonus compared to phénix 🙂

[static meteor]

It helped Hera/deity to avoid going for some more turtle build and it was fun to play on T boost

[gaunt gale]

build tower would create more problems and complications then it would solve problems - if berserk mushrooms would grow in my garden i wouldnt complain

[gaunt gale]

it was great i agree! I miss it.

[static meteor]

I miss it a lot too 😅

[dim sluice]

Titans protection was why I got Themis in the first place (heretic corvus). Was it removed because it made tankier classes unkillable?

[outer spade]

Or made squish classes tanky

The world my never know

[gaunt gale]

i got it cause it was the lovechild of pegasus + phoenix

[gaunt gale]

and made tank classes even tankier!

[outer spade]

Are you saying players need nerfs

Or just classes you dont play 😶‍🌫️

[gaunt gale]

im deity, im the embodiment of a tank

i dont think players need nerfs!
B U F F S

[outer spade]

You could have stopped that sentence at embodiment lol

[outer spade]

I think that is were we differ in opinions

[gaunt gale]

sadly, deity is only a tank, and a worse version of everything else
But a deity buff is what we try to push for a while now, looking at every other class but heretic getting a broken mechanic

[runic tangle]

Define broken

[gaunt gale]

Colleteral is amazing damage
avidity is just plain cheating
Beastial Bonds and spirit garm are very powerful

its kinda depressing if any other class does better what your class brought to the game, ultima

[runic tangle]

avidity 3 is:
10% when attacking
15% when using boost
20% when you drink potions

but if you want to continue the conversation it should be in #👋│general

[outer spade]

I would love to see a source on Cd being amazing damage outside of the already meta US/SS builds lol

[gaunt gale]

its a flat damage buff to gilgamesh that you can make really, ridiculously strong - adding to the normal SS damage!

[outer spade]

Source showing CD as the damage driver please 🙏

[gaunt gale]

..?
Its free additional damage for a class that already did a lot of damage?
I dont know what source you need but 40% chance to do X% more damage?

[outer spade]

Lol. You are going to put the claim that it is super strong, then put the burden of proof on me. All without understanding how the new system works.

Cheers bro. Hope your class gets the buffs to make the game playable or something 😂

Im out

[somber scroll]

Heya folks, this isn't a collateral damage thread. Also lets not be needlessly angry with each other, thanks

[gaunt gale]

Was no need to attack me but as you please.

[gaunt gale]

true, youre right.

[outer spade]

Definitely not angry. Just shocked at some sentiment of folks take of the general state of player power.

Never attacked only asked for evidence and summarized intent

[outer spade]

Hey Just chatted with a kingdom mate and he dropped some knowledge bombs on me. I was off base here and sorry about that.

Hope you have a good rest of your day 🍻

[gaunt gale]

Its ok, nobody's perfect, i dont know everything either. That would be weird^^"

[static meteor]

I hope themis will have Tdef/res++ back 🙏

[fiery cypress]

So one likes Build Tower on any titans ?
It's like the only Regen HP ability of the game, I though it would have some success on at least one titan ...

[hallow musk]

Most of the classes that could use followers are reliant on redlining anyway, and some that are free of that have better picks

.....now if Summoners were to be allowed followers, then problem solved!

[fiery cypress]

Sharing Build Tower to all summons

Actually, why not adding Mana regen, and adding the buff to Oceanus ? Heretic will be pleased

[smoky fern]

They are indeed better!

I was thoroughly impressed by the imaginative rework of Selene! The runes and titan seal is cool, and Lunar strikes AOE is a joy to see go off!

I still dislike that using the Gait spells is a strict DPS loss, regardless of how many AI enhancing bonuses you have on (Or don't).

At first I was disappointed overall, but after figuring out to not use the Gait spells, she's pretty freaking good!

[worn quest]

I felt the same way about them. They're better for sure, but I just can't justify spending 300k shards on one when it's a side grade at the very best. Oh well.

[smoky fern]

So I just tested her WITHOUT using any Gait spells, and she's honestly pretty good!

I hate not being able to use one of my classes signature spells, but I'm still fairly satisfied.

[worn quest]

Good to know! You using her strictly for AoE type situations, or single target also?

[smoky fern]

I use her mostly for Towers, PvP, and raids with Summons (Like Ophion)

She's really good in towers because she DCs turn 1 often, with a mimic's mischief she will often clear out the mob before your own DC could go off. She's slightly faster than Fey Cactus in that regard + she can much better single target damage. Though you have to swap her out for Meliodus mobs. She's just about useless vs them (immune to light dark, and the AI is broken ATM, and priorities using Lunar Strikes on mobs that are immune to it for some reason).

In PvP, I've found this bitch to be UNBEATABLE! She's better than Spirit Garm ever was in PvP imo. For real, I'm at 100% win rate for about ~75 matches currently. Her kit is just perfect for PvP Beowulf. High peirce, self buff, AoE, high single target, crits. Selene is Queen of PvP haha. And I want to add, 100% win rate! I didn't even have that with Spirit Garm.

She's not as good as Fey Cactus for horde dungeons, but she's good enough that I don't feel like I HAVE to use the Cactus if I don't want to.

But all of this only holds true if you DON'T use any Gait spell.

[worn quest]

Good to know! Thank you! What weapon/adornments and spec are you using if you don't mind me asking.

[smoky fern]

This is my basic setup for towers and PvP.

My Spec is Tamer for everything. The extra action and stats is just too good to pass up. I could try some stasis shenanigans in PvP, but I haven't needing anything more than just stats.

In PvP, I replace the Baldur boots with Gerd's for the extra defense.

My Axe is mostly for Ward Regeneration.

I use a 5% extra ward amity. With the augment that recovers HP/Mana when you get hit, you basically double your effective HP before Divine Bastion goes off. It's pretty sick.

[worn quest]

Thanks! That is super helpful. For towers - do you ever have issues with the mobs that get to act before you do? I'm currently cataphract spec for that reason.

Oh nevermind, looks like lungs more or less takes care of that

Thanks again!

[smoky fern]

Yep!!
An Amite that let's you start with ward is optimal though, unless you have an extremely good one like extra ward absorption, just because the augment on the axe is kind of a waste in dungeons and raids.

Though it's also pretty good in PvP, to help get through Verse crit builds that like to two shot people haha

[kind smelt]

So with all these changes would any help heretics yet?

[runic tangle]

that's what oceanus is supposed to be for

Oceanus(Mage)
Prometheus(Thief)
Themis(Warrior)
Selene (Beowulf)
Eos(Summoner(but summoner cannot use pets))

[kind smelt]

Is there a pinned post for the new stats

I’m looking at wanting more details on the Oceanus replica

[kind smelt]

Ty. Now anyone now what the rune of Oceanus does? Or titans seal or titans power?

[runic tangle]

Every rune increases the dmg of Titan's Seal/Strike
Rune of Oceanus has the frozen effect(cannot be prevented i think)
Rune of Eos the Blind effect
Rune of Prometheus has DoT(999 per turn)
Rune of Selene/Themis has no effect at this time

Titan's Power is Deific channel (75%)

[static canyon]

I'm kinda excited at the idea of some gigantic mega HP raid where you need a party with 4 of these replica pets all joining in to all cast theirs runes and pound the ever loving stuffing out of the raid quickly. Else it takes forever.

[restive perch]

The so called warrior pet (themis) felt so flat for the class.
Arisen stonewarg/steward golem/ or ortanite golem, are better for ward up keep.
Fey chimera/chimera better for dmg boost.
You definitely need some pet boosters(gear,items,adorns,etc,etc) to make themis viable for warriors but if you are going to invest all of that for the pet to make worth it, the Phoenix is just straight better.
I hope we can get the shards back because 300k shards are a lot for the pet.

[hallow musk]

Themis is the Warrior one? This is legit the first I've heard of this.

Cuz her kit doesn't seem Warrior, more "general" usage

[open wedge]

Pretty sure themis is warrior

Or Prometheus, since it drops most ward augs

[restive perch]

Exactly warrior line don't have a especific pet per see, so is that or none.🤷

[hallow musk]

You can take Eos
Summoners can't use it anyway

[restive perch]

Good for memes🙃

[solid sundial]

How dare you call eos a meme

[static meteor]

Thanks again for all the New contents on the game 🙂
After some days using Themis as a Deity, this Tdef/res++ loss feels like a nerf to me. I was happy to use it to keep opportunity to do other thing than CS/Ara to run with mid/high anguish. 🙂

[runic tangle]

Are ideas still accepted for rework of the Titan Replicas??

[static canyon]

I think ideas are technically always accepted but may not be implemented? ;p Maybe if enough people asked for Themis to have titan protection again it could be changed. Maybe put it to a vote in the suggestion channel?

[static meteor]

Thank you for your Idea, I just wrote one #💡│suggestions message

[runic tangle]

I don't think Themis should have Titan Protection back, but she should get Ward of Ortanite to help more in Endgame and keep her warrior identity

[late stream]

putting the titans with offensive moves only helps beos. no other end gamer in another class even wants our pets to attack. we want effects. effects that improve time management such as ward turn upkeep or damage modifiers. all other skills are completely useless for a non beo end game player.

i purchased themis, she is cool, and we appreciate the time invested in a rework…and accept that there might be a couple more reworks if we’re lucky.

who is really the player who invests 300k into a follower? more likely end game players.

cleanse and all^^^ being the only useful skills on themis. her ai is woefully bad casting cleanse instead of all^^^ even when i don’t have a negative status effect on. am i supposed to wear low tier hellfire boots just to get pet ai as a thief class to get her to function?

i was thinking that a more thematic approach to these pets could be class based. such as themis giving X amount ward absorb as a passive or oceanus giving a 10% boost to elemental damage as a passive. maybe even allowing the player to disable offensive moves entirely from these pets. or maybe even having a voltron pet that allows players to choose skills that they find useful. so for example, you get a 100pts cap….terrastrike 3 is 20pts, berserk 2 is 55pts, dc is 75pts ect.

[fossil perch]

I'll generally echo the above sentiment. I don't expect most (if any) followers to be tailored to the slim majority endgame crowd, but I was hoping at least 1 of these pets would be an improvement to tower runs in some way (beyond extra shards)

But currently they sit in an unfortunate space where I need to bring them to maximize tower shards but all they do is waste time and slow the runs down. The best amity for tower farming is bestial bond 1 with negative act rate, which I find to be unfortunate.

A passive(s) that only activates in towers could be cool. A chance to grant a random chest buff per floor, or a chance to automatically solve puzzles or something. Just anything to justify bringing them other than the shard boost

And while it's to broad a topic for this thread, I don't think the problem is strictly limited to tower followers. Currently if pets don't provide utility, they are DoA for endgame players/content like towers and anguish where pet damage drops into the gutter for everything but Beo

[hallow musk]

Ngl, I'm reading all of this more as 'non-valhallan, non-summoner classes should get a completely new "follower system" that isn't followers', maybe a familiar or stuff like that?

[fossil perch]

I'd be game for that - not sure the studio wants an entire follower system overhaul though

[hallow musk]

Whereas followers function as separate units that can do things equal or even better than the player unit, Familiars would, first and foremost, have the intent of putting the player it's with at center stage

Basically having the landscape be:
Beo-Follower
Summoner-Summons
Realms/Heretic/Gilga-Familiars
Deity-???

[fossil perch]

I also saw fuxy lurking, and he has a great write up somewhere from ages ago about how much damage should be expected from a follower compared to a player, and what that could/should mean for balance

Might go find it as it feels super relevant for this topic

[runic tangle]

I think it was because each Titan Replica was supposed to serve each class, and everyone apart from Beowulf is not Valhallan

[hallow musk]

It already falls off at "supposed to serve each class"

Since, y'know, what would Eos serve?

[runic tangle]

Eos would be the best pet for summoners, but they can't use it

Eos also works for any class I think, it can summon meatshields, it uses Titan's Power, and the Eos rune has the effect of blindness, so I think it would serve a lot as a defense for PvP (because it has 5% protect chance each summon and Rune of Eos (blind) with good pet act

[fleet valley]

With the current Titan follower adjustments, which titan(s) would you most likely to purchase? Use the following emotes ( , , , , ) for the poll. If possible, your reasoning as well.

[runic tangle]

Eos could be a good support in PvP for my Rs Dorado, 60% dodge + 5% protect chance each summon +Rune of Eos (Blind) + Titan's Power is very good, the problem is that I will have less crit for the build I plan to do, but 64 pet act is not bad

[fiery cypress]

Selene because AoE for Valhallan
Themis because DC, Cleanse, Ward turn

[hallow musk]

If Summoners could have followers, even if rates from ANY source is nuked, I'd buy Eos in a heartbeat.

I want my fellow mounted sprite, damn it😭

[runic tangle]

summoner would only make Eos usable as an attacker, btw, she would fight with the summoner over who uses the summons first

[solid sundial]

Eos for sure! My fallen mind cannot be changed anymore. Beo summoner till the end

[wooden onyx]

I've bought them all a while ago ||and I'm playing summoner anyway||, but selene seems the most usable of the lot. Cactus sidegrade and Ymir sidegrade in one package, can horde + raid as beo with it without having to swap pets.

[fierce basin]

And for none beo ? Themis still an ok phoenix side grade with cleanse ?

[mighty nebula]

On the topic of Eos, do the summon that EoS summon go with you to next floor on gauntlet? I never use pet with summon spell

[ebon rapids]

They do not

[mighty nebula]

Thanks

[solid sundial]

They also have much lower stats than a normal monster - 90% summon stat penalty for not being a summoner

[dim sluice]

From my experience (heretic) it's no longer useful (to me) in its current form. It was good pre nerf. Now it can't maintain ward upkeep. So I lose time management having to keep my ward turns up

Lost titan's protection as well.

A phoenix simply is smoother and more reliable.

[hallow musk]

Whoever thought of giving Selene AoE, status, element, and critical in just one skill, thank you so much😭

[fleet valley]

It seems like there is no love for Oceanus and Prometheus. Eos at least have some love but not exactly the useful way. Themis is wanted for the support role and Selene for her AoE capability.

[hallow musk]

To be fair, the classes those two are based off of are so fast they see followers as dragging them down

[static canyon]

I really feel like Prometheus should have crit up or temp crit up. Maybe both? Maybe triple attack up? Maybe Oceanus has triple magic up like spirit doggo. Let them keep titan power up? Themis gets back titan protection and maybe loses towerfall? Maybe gets divine bastion? And I am still stumped on Eos.

[hallow musk]

Give Prom the very first skill that gives T. Atk ↑↑↑

And then give Eos and only Eos to Summoners

[hallow musk]

This is what we're missing out on

With your help, we can change that

[little oyster]

A stronger Prometheus would be really nice yeah

[solid sundial]

NO.

[hallow musk]

YES.

[solid sundial]

if beos get rid off the -90% summon penalty

[hallow musk]

That's not a Beo

[stable mango]

https://tenor.com/view/bonk-gif-26414884

[solid sundial]

i know

[open wedge]

[solid sundial]

summoners can have eos if beos summon stat get normalized xD

[hallow musk]

Anyways, please have Eos' BB be AL-dependent summon stat

[rustic sky]

will you hoc to beo if that happens

[hallow musk]

Without a doubt.

This is mad cute.

It's basically Eos piggybacking off the summoner piggybacking off the golem in a combination that amounts to an average-sized person

All that effort for a normal height, I can't😭

[solid sundial]

Imagine what I can do with eos if summon stat malus gets taken out

Its basicly the only thing that drags me down 😭

Or ophion 👀

[fierce basin]

Maybe not that dragon. Some other mob without elemental blight may be fine tho.

[tight stump]

So one of them is suitable for endless as physical or raids ? Or ITS just not good atm

[lofty shuttle]

I dont necessarily think these pets need to represent the meta, they should just be unique and usable

Which I believe has been achieved. Maybe just some fine tuning on the skill selection (i.e. is selene aoe or na?)

DC Lite + Runes represents usable and unique imo

[worn quest]

Selene is pretty decent for BeoA, but there are a few issues. The biggest one is by far the chance to fail for DC. Since she mostly acts as just a buffer for other classes I understand why the fail chance was added, but when it fails two or three times in a row and she doesn't perform any other actions it's super frustrating for a class that relies entirely on a follower. I wish there were something available as a BB 2 or 3 that eliminates that fail chance entirely. Her AI is also a bit hit or miss. Spamming Lunarstrikes on holy immune mobs is pretty annoying. I know the holy weakness was removed from her rune power due to its interaction with Ultima, but I would like to see something added in replacement. Maybe an expose weakness type skill that applies -Def, -Res to the mobs.

[runic tangle]

"Prometheus Replica
-Cleave
-Rune of Prometheus
-Sortie->Wallop
-Titan's Power
-Titan's Strike
-Towerfall->Fright
+30 Debuff rate

Prometheus Replica would only use debuff (Fright) when Titan's Power is active, it would serve a lot for Anguish/Towers/Monuments (Endgame) helping with Wallop and Fright for better damage ouput/defense through debuffs

Yes, I know it's a combination of Ashen Fenix and Very Scary Skeleton but it's very useful while maintaining the Thief Class identity"

That's what I was going to put as a suggestion for Prometheus, but the update just came out at that moment

[static canyon]

I love this all except for fright. I can see it spamming fright on someone stunimmune throughout the entire fight.

[timber gorge]

I see nothing wrong in helping beos with follower variety and uniqueness and since it's their mechanic.

[late stream]

i see nothing wrong with it either. i’m absolutely elated in the new power level and build diversity…. also other hand, see how it looks from other classes perspective a bit too

[hallow musk]

They never really promised anything about having the Titan followers helpful like that for other classes, did they?

[hallow musk]

Gee, you should see how summoners feel.

[timber gorge]

From other classes perspective I see loosing bonds and the exclusive bond unique boosts to everyone. While beo getting nothing unique.

[late stream]

the ultimate…step into my shoes lol

[hallow musk]

Bro, at least you have shoes

Jokes aside

[late stream]

you might be barefoot, but dem beefy, hydras got some Jordans

[hallow musk]

They based the followers off the Titans themselves

How that plays into their respective classes is entirely dependent on how those Titans act/perform themselves

Hell, instead of giving one for the other classes that can use followers and need it more, they made one based off of summoners despite their inability to use it

[late stream]

might sound kind of crazy but I do think that the thief titan should be something they want and so forth. selene could be something beo wants

then what if there was a titan summon?

[hallow musk]

Imo, if the desire is to have them act as support for non-Valhallan classes, maybe aim from the point of view of the Augments they drop; what effects do they have that the respective classes use and are there any corresponding in-game skills that have the same effect? If so, then ask for those

[hallow musk]

I kid you not, it'll get stuck at [Titan's Power] for most of its turns

[runic tangle]

Well that's the downside

[late stream]

well, I’m not gonna say what things other people should or shouldn’t ask for…. Ultimately that is out of all of our hands. But I do think a little bit of good dialogue could help nf know our desires

[hallow musk]

Agreed

[hallow musk]

Without any kind of smartAI, that follower's gonna make sure you feel that downside all the time

[runic tangle]

"Prometheus Replica would only use debuff (Fright) when Titan's Power is active"

that's why I said that, so that at least before he starts spamming fright, he would give us Titan's Power first

[late stream]

titans power is cool but locked behind ai. what if the titans came stock with pet ai but narrowed the effects such as oceanus gives mag^ mag^^ mag^^^ and prom the attk versions ect

[static canyon]

I still feel like one of the titan replica's should've been named Erin Yaeger...

[runic tangle]

You can change the name of any follower if you wish

[runic tangle]

there's no need

[kind smelt]

Has anyone played with Oceanus and whether it does help heretics?

[fiery cypress]

Seems not

Anyway, I just got my hand on Selene and I have done some testing

She's a very good PvP follower, perfect answer against Summoners

However, follower AI doesn't do her any favor because she has many AoE attacks

When I want to play the AoE Skills, even with full Att+++, it doesn't prevent her to spam her Rune spell

Same goes in Raid, when I want to play with the Burst spell, full mag+++, but still spamming Lunarstrikes / Arrowstorm

And even with a good setup, Raid Selene is just worst than a classic Fjalar :

Solution proposed :

Right now, the solution would be to switch Selene's rune spell attack in skill attack, Titan's Seal into Titan's Strike temporary
The time to fix AoE IA interactions
In community side, we will have to brainstorm how to upgrade the magical side of Selene.

[solid sundial]

Have you tested the rune spell combo with brynd

[fiery cypress]

You mean the second record with Selene ?

[solid sundial]

Oh I didint see it lol

Mb

[timber gorge]

One thing I notice from my point of view is that Selene is most picked and then possibly Themis 2nd, other than that they are rarely picked probably due their cost, so they don't seem worth their own cost for what they bring to the table.

[worn quest]

I really wanted to like the PvP aspect but man.. I had multiple times where she would fail when casting DC 2 or 3 times in a row and did nothing else and it was super frustrating. I really wanted to like her, but in her current iteration she's worse than cactus for horde, and worse than multiple followers for raiding. As you also alluded to her AI AoE needs work too. Definitely potential there, but with ability bloat it makes it tough.

[static canyon]

I am fairly happy with Selene for horde over cactus. At least until I get something that's dark immune. Her DC procs enough for me when combined with her AOE stuff I'm happy. I wish her rune also did a DOT like prometheus at least. That's the lowest damage AOE. So at least when she pops them all with a rune and then starts single shotting them with her seal, all the others are at least taking a little damage? Or maybe lulled/slept to keep with the moon theme?

I may get oceanus next just as my dark immune alternative pet in towers? As it is I go back to my spirit doggo for that.

[fiery cypress]

It's not dark immune, it's light immune that stops Lunarstrikes

Selene is a stronger but slower Cactus

I'm trying to use her in High Anguish farm, but she misses ... misses ... and misses ... again ... and again

That plus trying to cast DC (if she doesn't fail) and also not using a spell

I have more chances to die with Selene

With Cactus, I usually die against a Berserk Realmshifter

With Selene, just a regular one suffice with enough bad rolls ...

Solution : Replace Bonded Ward from Replica's BB by Bonded Dex or Accuracy

In High Anguish / Tower, or any High Difficulty content, it's killed or be killed

Selene waste already many turns by setup or using wrong abilities, we shouldn't suffer from misses also

[tight stump]

Thémis is nice but need some adjustement too. Suggest dont Make Titan power fail (why really ) and less Cleanse. Actually Thémis spam Cleanse too often . What about the Runes ? Seems useless atm

[kind smelt]

Anyone play with Oceanus? Wanting to know if worth getting for heretic

[lone plover]

They need more work for sure

[kind smelt]

Ok, im going to hold off and just let the shard accumulate then

[kind smelt]

Thanks

[worn quest]

Yep. That's my biggest issue with her. I'd like a BB 2 or 3 that prevents DC from failing and wasting 2 or 3 turns trying to cast it in a row, and combine or change some abilities so she's more consistent with her AoE attacks. I know there's still issues with follower AI with multiple mobs so that probably doesn't help things either. Lots of potential there, but right now cactus just is more consistent and quicker.

[timber gorge]

ability bloat & ability fail could be countered by BBs

[fierce basin]

I don't really like the idea of linking so much things to BB. Pet options are already really scarce outside of valhallan class, just make some useful one for other classes.

[wooden onyx]

just make some useful one for other classes
like, what?

[fierce basin]

Idk, but outside phoenix / lotan / Chimera, everything else feels underwhelming. Mostly because of low act or too much spells without access to calls.

[wooden onyx]

Not against it. Just not sure what a follower can do that it can't already do in that slot.

Instant DB? Yeah, some followers do that. DC? Zerk? Statuses? You name it, they all exist.
Unless the goal is to create followers that don't just double player damage but triple or more (which... seems wrong).

[fierce basin]

You could imagine some pets that are very front loaded, like giving DB first turn but never again, or golem fortitude 100% like we have for mimic. You could also get pet that help on other things, like a pet that drain your mana/health until a certain point to help with blue/red line, pets that give you turn avidity like. Even passives, like a pet that gives you high tenacity with a counterpart.

[lone plover]

That's edging into a pseudo spec with pet buffs

Avidity procs from a pet would be ridiculously broken

What I think would be cool, is some sort of doppelganger pet, and it copies your entire spell list but at 50% value

(yes it's a shit idea, but it sounds cool)

[lone plover]

This would lead to some interesting skill choices and builds tho, let's be real

[fierce basin]

How is that more broken than a pet that multiply all your stats by 2 ?

[lone plover]

With a class like diety who gets free dc, with bof spec and avidity lmao

You wouldn't ever need to stop attacking

Ever

[fierce basin]

Deity getting DC consistently outside horde is a legend. Even us have to rely on phoenix for things like endless.

[timber gorge]

well I think they should be at least be more useful for Valhallan classes, since its their thing

and ability bloat and ability fail could be countered by BBs which could and should be a Valhallan thing

[fierce basin]

And I'm not a fan of just "some" things, sometimes even core mechanics, being locked to a class. It's like saying that spells that regen ward will now only regen half on none warrior classes, or Ultima is now 50% power on none deity classes. IMO the difference in pet utility is too big when you don't really have disadvantages like summoner does.

[gentle swan]

Ss cs is 1/2-ed on non gilgas 😔

[open wedge]

You really wanna see 1mil unbuffed cs on beoH 💀

[gentle swan]

I mean.. 😅

||its definitely possible rn with 100+ ish ALs + optimal build||

[open wedge]

It is? 💀

Now that's terrifying news to me

[little oyster]

I feel this topic goes off the tracks. Maybe we can go back to Titans pets, those who aren't good enough, explain why and state some proposals. Then leave a pin behind to summarize our work and let Odie come back to us with toughts

[fierce basin]

Eos, because lmao Phaethon and -90% summon stats

Everything else feels worthless on non valhallan so I can't tell.

[timber gorge]

why the non vallhallan? are they worth on valhallan and which ones?

[gentle swan]

Not even worth on valhallan for me tbh

[fierce basin]

Some have decent kit for a pet that gives DC

Like the AOE one or the cleanse one

I just swap Selene and thermis all the time.

[timber gorge]

on vallhallan?

[gentle swan]

Ah yes selene, the inconsistent AP + kektus offspring

[timber gorge]

I can be wrong, but the only thing they have is the +5% tower shards passive for towers

[gentle swan]

The only sought after passive, yes

Well, the DC cosplay too i guess.. 25% chance to fail + gives 0 ward turns

[fierce basin]

Having DC already make them useful by itself. But they may be to all rounder for beoa. Very fine for beoh tho.

[timber gorge]

can Themis give consistent ward turns?

can any replica be the best at any role?

[timber gorge]

how is it very fine?

[fierce basin]

DC + cleanse on a class that don't have steadfast, it doesn't look to bad

[timber gorge]

for what content? I suppose cleanse for PvP?

[fierce basin]

Or raid

[timber gorge]

because if its just about DC I don't see it ever beating Phoenix, and just cleanse I don't see that being very useful but at least it is something

[fierce basin]

Still does more thing, even if it's less potent. What are you asking for ? Perma DC + aoe ? Or perma DC + infinite ward turns ? That just won't even happen.

Pets don't need more powercreep, they need more variety

[gentle swan]

As much as i agree with you, we dont need pets that is not worth to spend 300k shards on

300k shards isnt cheap for most of the playerbase

[runic tangle]

Rune of Oceanus => Frozen
Rune of Eos => Blind
Rune of Prometheus => DoT(999 per turn)

eos and oceanus are good supports for any raid, with good pet act, Prometheus for PvP

[open wedge]

Oceanus and eos are also blind/frozen that can't be immuned

[runic tangle]

Yes, I think no one has talked about the runes and their effectiveness.

[open wedge]

You can build some niche sets around them, for pvp

I've died my fair share of times to oceanus freeze

[timber gorge]

I dont think having cleanse is worth 25% dc fail + ward loss though

• ability bloat

[fierce basin]

Pretty sure guarding strike get your ward turn covered

[fierce basin]

Then maybe the problem is not the pets but the price

[timber gorge]

or phoenix is just too strong

[fierce basin]

Always as been. Imo DC from pets was a terrible idea which both destroyed pet variety and the deity passive usefulness.

[gentle swan]

I guess thats another way to look at it 👍

[timber gorge]

ultima is also on pets, but that does not seem to be an issue, in fact it looks quite weak on pets

[solid sundial]

Its strong If you focuse on buffing ultima

[timber gorge]

which you can't because of the ability bloat on those pets having different things

[gaunt gale]

i think thats by design, only selene got spared from it cause beo pet

[timber gorge]

I use sele as beo and i think she has ability bloat, too many things at once

[dim sluice]

Heretic Themis owner here (with 21% pet action). The before Themis kept ward up in raids and dungeons the new version slowly loses ward turns. So have to manually reapply. With the titans protection removal, I stopped using Themis as a result.

Odie is saying to watch for oceanus to be the mage version to watch for. So I'll be watching there.

I would love a follower that focuses on synergizes with my class. This means ward upkeep. Buffs (could be defensive, offensive or both). I like the idea of being able to get a buff that increases my ability to hit a target. An increased hit chance plus maybe t.a.++, ? Maybe asking too much but that's the dream.

I am not a huge fan of the pet applying runes on the target. Mainly because I'm looking at it from the perspective of late endless or in dungeons where a turn is wasted applying and won't carry over to the next floor.

I like the Steward Golem. It rarely attacks and simply does what I need it to do. Steward Golem shines in high anguish for me . I could see Themis being a similar but better version of the Steward Golem.

[wooden onyx]

Making all the titans similar (shared DC/sigil/ult base kits) definitely restricts where they can be used and which classes can use (any of) them.
But that decision came very early on.

[dim sluice]

Things change. As we know. Just have to provide thoughts. Non beos seem under represented in input here.

[wooden onyx]

Things already changed 😅

idk if I agree that non-beos are underrepresented here. This is a very big thread and the concerns about all the followers being kinda samey for non-beo (aside from Themis who has extra cleanse utility) were raised very early on. And Odie said that's just how the titans are going to be, by saying they'd have shared kits (because they're expensive and the expectation is that players buy one but not all of them). 🤷‍♂️

[dim sluice]

Yep, I bought one early on (Themis) they got changed for the worse. So if that can happen then they can also change for the better.

I even gave input. Early on.

[acoustic sage]

Themis is She

[dim sluice]

Sorry. She

[open wedge]

You dare assume someone's gender

||this is, for all legal reasons, a joke||

[dim sluice]

Anyways. Oceanus and I believe Themis is still being cooked. Still time there. The Themis rune is a place holder that doesn't do anything currently. I prefer the old version. (as a biased owner who bought Themis with the intention of using the old kit)

I changed to "they" in edit (for those who are confused)

[runic tangle]

If you want ward turns in Themis (warrior), Ward of Balor III may be the best option, since it not only gives ward turns but also gives elemental defenses, ignoring the fact that as soon as any follower puts an elemental defense stops using that ability (I don't know if it's intentional or a bug )

[fiery cypress]

what about the runes works like Stun and Frozen statuses ?
The enemy affected will never dodge attacks

[runic tangle]

Rune of Oceanus -> frozen(it already works like this)

[static canyon]

For non beos, is the pet act ok for the Titans? Maybe that's something that could be tweaked for non-beos? I know some people add addorns to get the ashen phoenix to act more. What if the titan's acted every turn, but you have only a 75% chance of the power proccing? Would that be a more fair balance?

[restive perch]

with enough act rate, why use other pet if phoenix is just straight better?

[static canyon]

If you didn't need to use additional addorns to get phoenix to act enough, and could instead use those slots for more damage/crit, that could be a build changer?

[restive perch]

Yes.

And that's why this pets are not really useful, have to invest on them but getting so little at return.
You invested enough on making this pets somehow more intelligent and all(at least themis)they do is spam the cleanse skill, and the runes option, we don't need that.

You invest enough at Phoenix and he is going to keep up your dc going, plus giving wards turns also, so🤷

I am not asking for a better Phoenix but something useful at return, just take out tower fall, runes, and titan strike, and then we have interesting pet.

That's why chimera, fey chimera, are so good no invested needed, give a huge boss to your dmg, then finish out any second chancers left.

[static canyon]

Personally that's why I think Oceanus should give triple magic up and Prometheus should give triple attack or crit up. Maybe let selene do the crit? This along with what they already do, but make it a random chance base proc like spiritgarm has for it's single and double magic ups for BeoA bond or like deity's random DC. Make this a random proc for just having the pet, no bond requirement, but keep everything else. This would maybe make them end game AND useful to everyone that's not beo?

[ebon rapids]

I feel like 4x damage boost all in one pet is a bit much, unreliable as it may be.

[runic tangle]

Prometheus Replica only needs wallop instead of sortie and fright instead of towerfall, Rs needs a pet that spams Fright in Endless/Anguish/Towers, and combining that with Titan's Power would be very good, plus with those two abilities it would be very attached to the Thief class (Debuffs), adding T.Att ↑↑↑ would not be so beneficial(except for dmg), much less T.Crit ↑↑

[solid sundial]

That would make prometheus a better scary skeleton. And skary skellies would lose their usage

[runic tangle]

That's the point , or without wallop maybe

[solid sundial]

I dont think the idea of titan replicas is To replace some of the popular followers

[runic tangle]

That's the bad thing, thanks to that the skill build of the Titans is very limited, although it is understandable

[restive perch]

not to replace but somehow make more useful, rater than only useful for 5% buffs to shards

[fiery cypress]

BeoA AL 42 with Selene
VS
BeoA AL 4 with Fey Cactus

[solid sundial]

Dex diff

[remote thicket]

Can someone give me a summary of how the Titans replicas are nowdays?

[fiery cypress]

Themis very good
Selene good but AoE IA is non-existant
Eos may be good in beosummoning ?
other are irrelevant

[solid sundial]

eos will be good at beomonning

i will deepdive into it once i find enough towers for that :I

[little oyster]

This "will" is bold, even from our Archbishop of the Beomonning way

[solid sundial]

hey i cant do anything to the fact that towers just run away from me xD

[left sinew]

Only things I see is that someone isn’t trying hard enough

[solid sundial]

shhhhhhh

[remote thicket]

Thx

I was in doubt between Prometheus and Themis

[mighty nebula]

With the Beastfelled garb and manticore/monoceros gear, is there any new use/ combo for Titan pet?

[solid sundial]

for eos

yes

[solid sundial]

Which titan replica is your most used? (react with the emote) Do you have all of the titans?👍 or 👎

if you chose how does it perform in general for you? 1️⃣ - 🔟 (react with any number between 1-10)

if you chose how does it perform in general for you? 1️⃣ - 🔟 (react with any number between 1-10)

if you chose how does it perform in general for you? 1️⃣ - 🔟 (react with any number between 1-10)

if you chose how does it perform in general for you? 1️⃣ - 🔟 (react with any number between 1-10)

if you chose how does it perform in general for you? 1️⃣ - 🔟 (react with any number between 1-10)

[solid sundial]

Eos replica and its lack of "home"

Currently eos replica performs terribly in most of the games content that makes question. What was the content that eos was supposed to perform decently?

Current problems on eos from valhallan auriga perspective

1.Player summon stat malus affects eos so her summons are super weak.

2.Lack of guided light mechanic

Now i will list all the games content and my experience on those with eos.

Dungeon (normal/boss)= very slow but can finish it if you have time.

Dungeon(horde)= not recommended bc it takes even more time than the non horde.

Dungeon(endless)= gets slower and slower the deeper you get due weak summons and you have to resummon each floor.

Towers/monuments= slow bc the lack of summon stat to make summons stay alive for a turn.

World= it is niche viewdistance pet due bb1. Not recommended at farming in world tho.

Raids= this is the place where eos finds the most use but its still not that great. You can utilize the summons to take some hits for you, but the lack of stats makes them die to any decent raid very fast which makes things slow unless you do towerfalling to speed run the raid before your summons die. But again tf is getting nerfed. Enough of that tho.

Fishing= this is imo the best place where i dont feel that im shooting at my leg

HOW I WOULD FIX THE PROBLEM. I will list a few ideas. These ideas are mainly directed to spesific weakness of the pet. I dont want to have all of them. Just 1 would give the pet a home.

1. Giving eos a 5% summon stat as base stat. And allow follower stat bonus affect the pets summonstat. This would add extra scaling and would buff towerlike and raid content. This would also make gear that has both pet and summon stat have a intresting synergy for the playstyle/pet.

2. Somekind of valhallan guided light for bb 1 or 3 which allows the pet to guide summons that it has summoned. This would buff dungeon contents.

It would be nice if odie gave a comment when he has time. Just bc i would like to know how he sees things from his perspective 🤔

If i had to choose which buff i would take. I would take buff 1. Bc i feel like thats the best way to buff eos atm.

Also i would like to have a serious discussion about how others would fix the problem

[solid sundial]

Fix nr 1. Would also slightly buff dungeon content bc your summons are not made of paper anymore.

[golden wraith]

So much text, but is Titan's destruction also aoe similar to ara vestala (or whatever that sigil blasting skill is?) or is it single target?

[solid sundial]

Single target.

[static canyon]

Imagine if eos was T9 and you could put her on your T9 othersoul?

[solid sundial]

Eh it would be worse than now

Would have even less use

I would not grind 300k shards for a pet that i give to othersoul that gets destroyed by any t9 clasa

Class*

[static canyon]

I'm pretty sure othersouls don't have the summon malus? My othersouls summon and use them just fine without summoner gear.

[finite ermine]

What if they give something different and useful in BB?
Maybe something from their adorns
Prometheus + crit dmg and/or chance
Selene hybrid %
The other ward regen

[solid sundial]

Yea you can use summons on os, but you cant compete vs classes with them.

[solid sundial]

Should we do a poll about the titans that need a buff/rework?

[static canyon]

I feel like everyone's been wanting Prometheus to do crit something for a year now. :/

I personally like status effects and wish all of their sigils had effects instead of only 3 of the replicas

[solid sundial]

Currently
Eos=blind
Prom=burn
Oceanus=frozen

Ideas to the last two
Themis= windswept? Stun?paralyze?
Selene = rot/bleed?

[static canyon]

I kinda always felt like blind should be on Themis since she's blindfolded or Selene since she does light damage mostly. But I can see it maybe being a shitshow to move a status from one titan to another.

[static canyon]

Bleed for Selene could be fun since she kinda sorta has piercing attacks? Or sleep for the night theme? What if Themis did Stasis? (lay down your weapons and prepare to be judged!!!)

If we moved blind from Eos, I could see her using rot or blight.

[solid sundial]

Eos does need her blind atm.

Most of my wins in pvp comes bc i can stack 2x blind

If it wasnt blind idk how i could win anyone with eos lol

Blind helps to keep my summons alive aswell

Eos cant survive without her blind at the current state she is at

[civic fjord]

I mean... to anyone who uses them it is obvious which ones need a rework.

Selene is the most useful for inconsistent AoE. Prometheus is the Towerfall god until element stacking gets nerfed. Themis has defensive value with cleanse.

Then Oceanus is in the corner with a weird freeze status and Eos is crying because 2 people in the world care enough to try and make her work.

[solid sundial]

does odie know this

[civic fjord]

That depends on how effective you are at sliding into his DMs

Seriously though, I can't see how to fix Eos. Oceanus is probably not hard to make something out of but I have no clue with Eos.

[left sinew]

Guidelight or more summon stats, easy 🗿

[solid sundial]

yea

any of those basicly

eos does not need both, either one of those would give her a home

guidedlight would allow eos to do dungeons more effectively. More summon stat would allow her to do towers, raids, pvp etc more effectively

[civic fjord]

Guidelight is a good idea, but my god I can already see the abuse case. Go full summoner, Charon Grimoire out 5 Arisen Gazers and buff them as though you're going to GS endless. Swap to Beo with Eos.

Beo now has one of the safest endless strats in the game

[left sinew]

It doesn't have battalions, though

Not that safe

[civic fjord]

Unless it is restricted to Eos's minions or something very similar.

That's the summon protect right?

I can see someone filling a celstial weapon with summon protect titan adorns to get around that

It probably won't be as strong as when GS does it for sure, I'd have to see the limits @solid sundial pushes with it and how he lives with the constraints

[solid sundial]

i tried to suggest some "valhallan guidedlight" for eos to guide her summons but that havent been very popular

i mean i already did 412 floors with eos in endless

it just took fkn long bc resummoning each floor

[civic fjord]

I don't know if the suggestion wasn't popular on its own merits or because you are seen as the Crazy Eos Person, but it's honestly not a bad idea with some guard rails.

[solid sundial]

yea i decided that i stop doing suggestions bc i can clearly see that ppl dont like to see my suggestions.

[civic fjord]

There's also the fact that it's a suggestion about a ridiculously niche follower that requires 300k tower shards to obtain - most just don't understand or care about Eos when there are obviously better alternatives.

It reminds me of people who played Feral Druid in early World of Warcraft - they worked 5 times as hard as other damage dealer classes to perform 90% as well.

[solid sundial]

anything eos related gets downvoted into oblivion

[solid sundial]

this is the issue imo.

community does not want it to be viable

[civic fjord]

That's understandable tbh. Summoner line is already somewhat seen as annoying/turn brain off/no effort cheese because of how safe it is compared to every other class until you get noticeably into T10. Any suggesstion to make use of summons, even if they are weak, is going to get caught in the crossfire with that attitude.

The reality though is that once you get established in T10, those summoners take 10x as long to set everything up and it isn't even that strong.

[solid sundial]

Indeed. And now if you are strong enough and have decent 2h you can butcher summoners & eos 100%

[civic fjord]

Man I didn't even think of that downside from the 2H buff.

[solid sundial]

I have felt that shit so hard during the few days

[civic fjord]

I mean luckily it only affects you in PvP. But still, it's like taking Eos out of the garbage to toss her into the dumpster.

[solid sundial]

Eos cant do anything vs 2h weapon bc summons are so weak that you dont even need bis gear to sweep the summons out

[solid sundial]

Cleave<3

[civic fjord]

Avidity is so utterly wretched in PvP.

But what is more wretched is that he didn't just straight up kill you with 4 free turns.

Also shout out to Titan's power failing right before that.

[stable mango]

That’s probably BoF passive when killing summons, not avidity

That’s Metasys’ GUrsa sprite I believe

[civic fjord]

Oh you right, I'm just having blades arena flashbacks

[solid sundial]

Yea not avidity

[solid sundial]

He did try. He just didint do enough dmg . He lost this bc i got redlined and eos did random towerfall

[civic fjord]

Eos won there? Balanced.

[solid sundial]

Yes

[runic tangle]

Wrong, is OP

[oak sandal]

Selene's feet should be adjusted

https://tenor.com/view/random-guitar-feet-skills-gif-19192317

Except her bow

[plain obsidian]

BL2 feels amazing in horde. Anyone tested it in towers? Is it viable or is CS still the way to go even after the nerf?

[gentle swan]

bl2 should be best in towers since enemies does not have a lot of res (or def) in general

i havent tested it, but i did test swansong

it should be way better than swansong

also arent we off-topic here?

[plain obsidian]

Oh snap, I confused it with the other thread. I'll continue it there. But thank you for your input.

[civic fjord]

Reviving this from the dead again to say that I was completely wrong about replica Oceanus.

His rune ability being the same as a freeze/stun and having an almost non-existent immune condition makes it way better than expected for BeoH - it either potentially prevents enemies from hitting you or dodging.