Summoner Nerf is good. Why?

[floral belfry]

I think summoner nerfs are spot on. This is what should’ve been done from the start. The way it was released it would allow for a summoner to be able to NOT choose between play styles. They could just use BP, max summons and protect chance all in one build, no matter which of the 3 classes they used. Now they have to choose between styles. I think it brings them in line with other classes and allows for new gear to build on this more “normal” baseline for the class. It’s important that a glass cannon be easy to defeat, or a tanky build not being able to hit hard. On the pve end of things, endless should never be this easy. It affects the ascension race whether they ascending the summoner or feeding another class. And for other content, with this new baseline we can look into how well it should perform while other content remains fair. Remember, stay on topic.

So I like this patch

[hybrid dragon]

oh gosh, i can foresee the direction this thread is going

saltiness, mud slinging and personal attack

[floral belfry]

Nah. Gotta keep it clean

Only nerf and why is it good

[rugged sand]

my problem is that it's atm not even possible to build into protect chance well. Going full protect chance is barely better than not speccing into it at all from my testing

did you already test protect chance?

what rates are you getting for it

[floral belfry]

Haven’t gotten someone suitable yet. The numbers are low. But my point is that with the baseline being low, now gear can come out that addresses it. Instead of having a high baseline and adding gear that works for other things

There are 10 slots for customization on a build, NOT counting slots on gear, not counting augments

[rugged sand]

atm I'll just get the highest hp I can because I really feel like protect chance isnt worth it atm. High HP is probably the best I can do

[floral belfry]

Stats are low too, but with these new baselines, stats could be looked into too

My problem with the pre nerf class was the ability to mix it all together to make those extremely oppressive builds. The nerf addressed that perfectly. Obviously the gear is not addressing the current block chance or other issues because the gear was released pre nerf. But just thinking about it from a perspective of builds, I like it a lot. Gives variety

[timber cove]

Id honestly really like it if with this low protect chance alteast we get normal defensive stats, but as that would * technically * be a buff I don't think anyone will back me up on it lol

I think that would be way healthier than squishy but rng like it was before the nerf

[lethal atlas]

I agree. I swapped from heretic main to GS on release because it was cool. The play style was different and it brought new mix/match gear opportunities. That quickly melded into a class with naturally high evade/defense (due to summon count and block chance) and insane offense due to pacts. I think your statement of different play styles in each class is apt. Yes there will always be a meta, but now there are viable comparable options. I personally have loved the Rhada pact play style. It’s slower and more consistent than insane high damage, but even the BP build were “tanky” with the protection of battalions and protect gear.

[floral belfry]

Maybe not normal. But higher, yes

[timber cove]

But honestly, I don't even mind the nerf as long as it's PvP only, everyone oneshots everyone so it's only fair you guys get to oneshot GS

[floral belfry]

Pre patch Auriga/ Benefactor build. For the ones that say that it doesn’t exist. Now with this patch, things like this can’t happen

@prisma copper

[prisma copper]

That IS PvP though, no??

[floral belfry]

So what? My title says nothing about PVE 🤡

[timber cove]

Yes the whole thread is about PvP, the lower battalions in pve is a bug

[floral belfry]

It applies to everything anyways

[prisma copper]

Yeah, I'm not really interested then.

[timber cove]

No it doesn't really, since pve didn't get changed

[floral belfry]

Doesn’t say anything about pvp either. 🥲

I’m just talking about the patch. You guys and your “topics”. 😂 And the patch includes the block chance. Whether intended or not, it’s fair

[timber cove]

Pve is still Ultima above all and the cool actual summoner themed builds like pacts or rhada are lackluster, but that's a different can of worms I really don't want to open in this thread lol

[floral belfry]

No. You can’t. Stay on topic

[prisma copper]

The patch includes Block chance FOR PVP, no mentions of it on GS in PvE

[vast bronze]

Is it definitely a bug?

[floral belfry]

I hope not.

It’s great

[errant glacier]

Nerf is working as expected. Definitely get hit more now as GS. 👍

[timber cove]

How do you know lol do you pve as GS?

[floral belfry]

Don’t have to. I only see the builds and the slots and the %. And it is good if NF decides to supplement the lower baseline with gear

[timber cove]

Well if battalions got hit as hard in pve as it does in PvP (I'm actually not sure, just listening to what the others are saying) that's definitely not a good nerf

[prisma copper]

"Don't have to" he says...

[floral belfry]

You’re really telling me that that block chance is not good enough if NF releases a block chance gear set?

[vapid yew]

IF

[rugged sand]

I dont think so

[prisma copper]

Big IF there, buddy

[floral belfry]

😂

[rugged sand]

because atm there barely is a difference between base and 6 augments + rift plate

[timber cove]

If they do, that's great lol

[floral belfry]

Ok

[prisma copper]

IF they do, then the nerf is justified, but that's IF they do

[floral belfry]

It’s not an if man. It’s a must.

[rugged sand]

IF

honestly we havent been getting that much new gear recently though

[floral belfry]

But the lower baseline is fair. Y’all literally asking to have high block chance with no investment at all

[rugged sand]

idk if its a reasonable assumption

[floral belfry]

Ofc you haven’t. Class was broken

[rugged sand]

I still dont think its intended

[floral belfry]

What gear were you expecting to get with the class the way it was?

[prisma copper]

Following this logic, who's to say it isn't just as likely that they release FSS gears for all slots?

[timber cove]

Yeah it for sure will if you could build to a high level of block, currently you cant lol

[floral belfry]

I don’t think it was intended. I think it was a mistake that should be implemented.

[timber cove]

By the way, I actually want the same thing to happen to summon damage. Lower base but higher scaling when you get top gear

If will make the class progress normally and not just be a noob no gear class

[prisma copper]

Yeah, and that's coming from someone that "doesn't have to" play PvE as summoner so take it with a grain of salt, basically

[floral belfry]

Every class follows the logic of low baseline and customize with gear

[floral belfry]

No personal attacks. Stay on topic.

[prisma copper]

Passives exist, man

[timber cove]

Yeah except beo and GS, which are arguably the most historically controversial classes lol

I don't like it, but it's how it works

[floral belfry]

Gilga is the one I look at as historically being able to defend and attack with the same build. Pve and pvp

No other class can

You have to choose

Except GS

[timber cove]

Yeah I don't think anyone disagrees with that

GS PvP both offense and defense was absurd

Pve is a different story, as I said

And it's supposedly not touched in the patch, except the bug for lower protect chance which mind you is pretty crucial in Pve with how fragile GS is

[rugged sand]

I think atm GS defense is below average

[floral belfry]

Nah. I have to choose to in pve. Do I want to clear gauntlets in one tap and have an immortal lord wreck me? Do I want to clear raids fast? Do I want to go for depth in endless?

[rugged sand]

definitely worse than any second chance class

[timber cove]

Again, if we got new armor so you could spec into protect just like you used to , I'd be fine with it

[floral belfry]

I agree it is atm. But I see it as a naked class right now. The gear that is currently out wasn’t intended for a lower baseline (which I think is the correct baseline for future gear options)

[timber cove]

By the way, that's kinda how it goes with GS too

[floral belfry]

And this should be the goal. If it happened, wouldn’t that literally be the best thing possible?

To have the options in your gear to customize as you desire?

[timber cove]

Yes lol that's literally what I'm asking for for months

[floral belfry]

But noooooo. Some people want it all

[timber cove]

Especially regarding summon stats, because with benefactor they are soooo high baseline

That the gear feels useless

[floral belfry]

Exactly

I don’t need to pve to understand that. Pfft. Ridiculous. I’ve been customizing builds like a madman for years. GS doesn’t have that option to customize heavily. The should and it’s what I wanted that class to be.

[timber cove]

Based

[floral belfry]

With the different summons that can do different things, customization should’ve been the biggest thing on the class

[timber cove]

But regarding the doing pve, I meant how crucial battalions feels for GS in raiding especially

[timber cove]

Yeah but as long as they keep making summons clones of existing monsters, we probably won't get cool customisation and synergy, cause enemies aren't designed to work as a team unfortunately

Maybe in the future

[floral belfry]

Agree. It is crucial. Y’all got the rug taken from under your feet. Ofc it feels like that. The class was handled wrong for 8 months.

Umm. “Handled wrong”

[timber cove]

yeah that's also true

I don't care thoug, they could nerf it into oblivion its just a cool power fantasy that's why I play it

[floral belfry]

But either gear with block chance or higher stats on the summoner. Both address this while keeping low baselines so the class can be customized with gear and slots and amity like everyone else

[errant glacier]

Higher summon stats? 👀

[timber cove]

Exactly, beo got a similar thing now with the bonded stats bonds, giving beos a way to actually viably scale their followers, so it was a bit of s bummer we didn't get it this patch, but balancing 3 classes in one beta might be too much

[timber cove]

Lower base, higher ceiling with proper investment

That would be the dream

[floral belfry]

No. 😂 Summoner lol

[errant glacier]

Oh. My MS public education failed me on the reading comprehension there 🤣

[timber cove]

MW I hope you get into ORN you are one of the few people who don't just brainlessly bash on the class and act emotional

Thanks bro

[floral belfry]

Idk if you’re being sarcastic…😐 but thanks. People say I’m a summoner hater. No. I hate the version that was.

[prisma copper]

Bit late of a reply since I was mulling over what words to convey my message in an understandable way

I'm saying that the "don't have to" part is basically admitting you don't have first-hand experience/knowledge on the matter to say anything of substance about the issue.

It's equivalent to me saying Deities shouldn't get buffed/fixed for all content since they have high base stats and with ALs, they can just bulldoze through any content

[floral belfry]

But summoner is a great idea and I’ve loved it since it was announced. I got everything summoner related that first event it was released. But didn’t play it cause it was broken.

[timber cove]

Nah not being sarcastic dw lol

You are a g

[floral belfry]

I have PLENTY of experience making builds. That’s all I need to know. Like I said, I’m looking at it from a very black and white pov. Numbers and that’s it. It would still be a slow class, but supposedly that’s intended, per Odie

[timber cove]

Nah he was saying it was broken fundamentally from a design stand point so you don't really have to play to know that

[floral belfry]

But it would be safe, with decent customizable block chance and higher stats on the summoner

[timber cove]

Also you don't have to play a class to know about it, it was pretty obvious to me beo was struggling even when I didn't play it

[rugged sand]

what's the point of higher stats on the summoner if you use summons to do content?

[floral belfry]

The point is to take a hit

[timber cove]

The point is to not get onetapped cause that feels really cringe

[floral belfry]

If the summon stats are X, and the slots are limited and you have to choose, then summoner stats can go up a bit

[timber cove]

Oops, randomly went through battalions, you die!

[frozen canopy]

So in pvp i've the choice
-to be randomly protected by summon and hit at 0
-to not be protect and summons hit at 1 (if they touch)
or not be protect and hit at 0.5 if i 've time to BP

[gloomy jackal]

I find even with the pvp nerf I still have a hard time breaking through for the g's in my area

I recommend gilga zwei

[floral belfry]

Yup. I still see the protect go up.

I just want Odie to consider what this would look like if he leaves it as is. I really think it benefits summoners and non summoners. And there is already gear out. Needs block chance (which there is only 1 piece out) and maybe more stats depending on how much block chance gear comes out

But if I want to spec into something and be good at that, something else should suffer.

(Except Gilga….cause….Gilga)

That’s just what balance is

[upbeat finch]

Loves the gear justification to keep stealth nerfs btw

[timber cove]

It's supposedly a bug, not a stealth nerf

[upbeat finch]

OP said it should leave as it is so im taking it as face value

But im kinda trollish as half of OP arguments are bait worthy intentionally or not

[fickle crypt]

Let's not assume ill intent from the poster please

[timber cove]

They aren't imo but you do you

Also if gets left on but we get compensation in better gear I'd be down

That's also what OP meant

[upbeat finch]

The problem now is the economy of turns to summon and lack of defences, the damage nerf was ok but... you are now still a glass but without a cannon and the second chance gamble the other classes have to keep them alive is your gamble + the gamble to try to summon something, you are already without acessories to keep yourself afloat against debuffs and need 2 pieces of the rest of the gear to not hit 0 with BP, now to kill something in pvp you need to summon 3 (pray 3 times) buff yourself, buff yourself cause if second wind procs you will hit Zero cause next turn enemy will have def ^^ and all ^^^ most of the time

Cant say about raid and endless cause bug, but hydrus feels taxed in this buffed state

[floral belfry]

Imo all parts of the nerf were deserving. Including pve block chance. The way it was led to ridiculous endless averages. Pretty much I’m repeating myself time and time again. But I’ll do it again so new eyes don’t have to read everything. If new gear comes out, these new lower baselines will be very fun to customize.

Pretty sure it’s not a finished product.

[upbeat finch]

Well.. by that we need to nerf all second winds type thing and similars to accomodare new baseline defense gear because it will be fun to customize

[floral belfry]

That makes no sense my good sir.

You do get to customize it. No one else does

But believe me….you think I would care if they lowered second chances proc chance if they give me another way to raise it past what it currently is?😂😂😂

Lemme answer just so you’re sure. Hell yeah I would take that in a heartbeat

They lower it from max twice to max 1 but I can raise it with gear to max 5?

I’ll tell you how much they’ll hate me

[upbeat finch]

Just change the chance to proc it and not give more procs, in deep endless if you get hit by something you will die in farm gear, if that is the problem, I had less random death with my time as deity than summoner

And the problem of deep endless with farm gear it is still there cause GS auriga and GS power in endless wasnt nerfed, but now it feels like being an press bastion III and dont look at the cellphone isnthe only way to go

[floral belfry]

Not give more? I’d be fine with that too. But I’ll bet my account y’all will start complaining about that later. Because it is restrictive. But my pov offers options and alternatives to spec into it

[upbeat finch]

The last update looked like a positive affirmative for those who were using the summoner to abuse of summons for the lack of the gear, then they just nerfed the geared part of the class and auriga playstyle is now more powerful than hydrus comparing them both (if you split both as summon power vs pact power) and Hydrus is the only job with a power boost in the game that is lost between endless floors, so it was nerfed as well there, but this part only affects the raids because you can switch to auriga to summon the summons to make hydrus better at endless

[night kindle]

Nefr endless so you cant leave Or change the class 🙏

[floral belfry]

That’s out of topic 🤡

[cerulean dock]

I think every summoner that is complaining needs to post their level, AL, and how long they have been playing the game. Y'all really have no idea how good/ easy you had or have it lol. Y'all don't want to work towards being a strong player, it's just expected immediately because that's how it has been for you since the class was released. There hasn't been a need to grind or work towards anything. I'm coming up on 2 years in the next week or so with like 179 days played (inflated because I do always fall asleep with the game open or just have it open because), but regardless. As a heretic I've had to grind raids (on top of waiting for the month the raid would be) like no other to get event locked gear to grow. Had to invest tons of time improving everything to get stronger. At lvl 225 I was happy with 30k - 50k hits on raids where I would get dropped in a few turns. It took over a year to start hitting decently hard. Here you guys are playing the game for 2 months and excelling in everything that every other class has had to work for. Yes new stuff has been added, the game has gotten easier and everyone can hit harder quicker than when I started. But to have a class where you can have normal gear not even max level and powerhouse through everything is an absolute problem. I'm glad it's tough for fresh t10s. You absolutely should be getting dropped quickly in raids and everything else until you grind out the gear through RNG like every other class has to do

It's still a new class. More gear does need to be added for it, I don't disagree. But the patch was 100% needed and time will tell if more needs to be done

[upbeat finch]

well.. I have the 2 years tag, idk when is the 3 years tag comming up but I have 76 days played and I dont sleep with orna on XD lvl 248/ AL 24 didnt level up much since got summoner but the charon mob i killed like 800+ times and the titan stuff I opened like 1k of them my endless record got 100ish better compared to my RS BP before GSH. if you want me to do a TL; DR of the complains,

• Summon turn cost compared to a normal PVP now seems kinda ODD considering normal defenses but idk what to do compared to it.
• Hydrus feels like nerfed and more dependent on the other subclasses from summoner for endless
• didnt adress the problem of "lack of gear" that people complain about summoner in the pve and kind of at pvp ( because if you have gear now you as just as powerless as the one without it)

the everage gear I use generally is 192%+ and most of them are 196%+ except for my 2 omegarifts that are normal

[floral belfry]

Question:

Why should hydrus be good at endless? Isn’t it a raiding/pvp type?

Gear should be coming soon enough, especially since it was in a way “held up” because the class was OP.

At least, that’s what I think. Not sure if that was really happening. But sure felt that way

[fickle crypt]

Hydrus kinda lost its home in pvp, at least. The fact that it lost Ascended Summons means it lost BP power compared to previous, and the stat that it got to compensate is based on the amount of dead summons, so it has even worse turn 1

[upbeat finch]

the raid aspect my normal summoner have like 10% less damage with buffed pets and more defenses in batallion III instead of II from Hydrus and the more pet damage compensates for this 10%, and you need to kill 5 summons and resummon them to feel the buff

[rugged sand]

ascended summons would not have made a difference anyway

[floral belfry]

Oh really? I haven’t seen a hydrus hit after the patch went live

[rugged sand]

the max BP damage is reached with like 140k hp and any more does not increase it because of the M1 cap

[upbeat finch]

if you kill a 10kk raid today it is faster to do as GS using pact than Hydrus

[fickle crypt]

does BP still hit the M1 cap?

gotcha

[floral belfry]

Thought it was working like it worked in beta

[rugged sand]

with ancient dragon and arcane troll Im doing max BP damage

[fickle crypt]

well, if it hits the cap then it is just base GS, but with Batallions 2 instead of 3

pvp-wise

well, and more base stats

[graceful pagoda]

May I ask where you have the information from that GS equip is "held up" due to class OP? First time I read this.

[rugged sand]

I think I'll make a post about hydrus

[floral belfry]

I’m just assuming here. That after GS feats started going out of control, NF got a bit more timid with releasing gear. It’s not a fact, it’s a theory, and it really felt that way

[floral belfry]

Go. I’ll downvote 😂😂

I think we will see them be a lot less timid with the gear now

[upbeat finch]

and you dont need to sacrifice summons to power up

since AL dont affect summons for Hydrus but this is a nerf for BP

[fickle crypt]

the powerup is ~irrelevant. Neither GS or GSH are going to get the powerup in pvp.

[floral belfry]

Actually. I agree. If the hydrus passive is activated when summons die, it will be a bad pvp passive.

[hasty silo]

Fewer annoying Summoner territories will be nice

[floral belfry]

As long as hydrus can do enough damage WITHOUT the passive, I feel it’s mostly a pve thing

[graceful pagoda]

Thanks. To contribute to this thread: I see a problem doing a GS pve class nerf without having the equipment available at the same time.
So when changes are introduced you need to show a way to reach the power level of the other classes

[floral belfry]

I see. I kind of agree with you. But I also think they wanted to see first where it would land. And then they can be more accurate with the gear design

[graceful pagoda]

then I see a lot of frustration. the main goal should be to have happy (tm) players - bringing a class down and invalidate all efforts put into it is rather a bad move.
I thought that is what an closed/open beta is for.

[floral belfry]

😆

Salty answers? Anyone? No? Just me?

Yeah. That’s what has been happening for 8 months for everyone else. It’s been 24 hours only for GS

God. I gotta stay on topic

I think it’ll be fine man. NF has done things like this before and they’ve made it work out. They won’t stop here. Reminds me of the ss3 nerf

At first it was horrible. They fixed it

Now it’s much more balanced.

I think same thing will happen here. GS was way waaaaaay stronger than ss3 Gilga. It had to happen. People shouldn’t have gotten used to something that was clearly broken either.

[graceful pagoda]

The difference between the discussion of SS3 and GS is now a far more emotional discussion (just my opinion).

[floral belfry]

Lol. Back then that one was so bad. Even top players quitting.

[elfin creek]

Oh yesss those discussions were fun to read haha

[quaint mantle]

out of the loop - what changed with ss3?

[elfin creek]

Spike shield use to crit and was solely based on ward

[quaint mantle]

gotcha, ty

[elfin creek]

Didn't take att stat into account at all

[vestal relic]

You had me at the first half, but when you mentioned max summons, bp focus, and protect chance all in one go you kind of faceplanted on the argument. You've been in these conversations throughout the months, I thiiiiiink you can stretch less.

That being said. Nerfs were good, but a tad much in terms of battalions but oh well. Now we just need things to actually allow choices to be rewarded to actually be able to take the stage. Despite things, BP and ultima builds are still the go to for summoners when it comes to raids/pvp, especially with fomor set able to easy 0 summons with a couple pieces.

Hoping that stuff like Rhada Pact gets the nudge it needs otherwise.

[floral belfry]

You’re actually right. I did say “max”. It’s not maxed. Just really freaking strong. Lol. Maybe 70-80% of their actual max? Whatever auriga and benefactor and boots end up being.

Then celestial weapon and chest for block and head and nekro for BP. That would’ve been really tough to deal with. Pre nerf ofc

Wouldn’t be a 150k hit BP, but would be strong enough to start shutting down second chance

[vestal relic]

Auriga / benefactor gains quite a bit of summon stats but ultimately go down to about 30% pact effectivess. Means bp would tickle but due to infinite pen it was semi usable

Summons were a bit much after benefactor came out. Fomor set helped a lot against it but that set was rough to use against others

[timber cove]

MW, just show the clip

lol

[upbeat finch]

One of the moderators said I shouldnt assume ill intention from OP but i think when he lies isnt ill intent xD

With pre nerf Hydrus with full damage setup you should hit like 90k with shield

But maybe he has the sauce with auriga benefactor hitting 2 times a Hydrus Majin

[timber cove]

There is a clip of a benefactor pre patch hitting hard with blood pact and hard again wth summons after

Op hasn't lied about anything, and when he has only assumed stuff he pointed it out

I just don't know where to look at the clip, otherwise I'd show you

[upbeat finch]

With celestial weapon focused on block? Doubt

[floral belfry]

That wasn’t me describing the build. That was me saying what I would do

I don’t need to deal 300k in turn one. That’s not efficient. I only need to deal enough that my summons can shut down second chance

[rugged sand]

I like my 2k dex tho

[floral belfry]

He is FAR from optimized. You wouldn’t catch me dead using that build. It’s terrible. And he can still do that

[rugged sand]

Even on pre nerf sequencer hydrus I dont think my summons zeroed out

May be different now because RIP ascended summons

[floral belfry]

Yeah. Sadly I’m 100% against the train of thought most summoners have, which is that anything about pre nerf was all right.

I think making a choice for your build is important. I would do the same thing with heretic. I don’t want a build that can give me 60k hp ward, max Crit and action or whatever may be. Can’t even imagine something as overpowered as pre nerf GS

Making choices and optimizing our builds is important

[rugged sand]

Although I dont think the build strings was using was that good

He's lacking dex

[floral belfry]

Oh we agree there. 😂

[rugged sand]

I want my build to be extremely consistent

[floral belfry]

He’s lazy

Yup

But I wanna hear from the dude that calls me a liar every other day

[errant glacier]

pre nerf gear I was using for PvP 🤣

[floral belfry]

God💀

That’s just disrespectful 😂

[errant glacier]

didn’t use rhada 2 don’t know why I still had lugus equipped

[timber cove]

Bro...

[cedar swift]

A little bit of context:
After 1y and a half of game I have T11 a26 GS, with high ornate rift summoner stuff, 200% charon staff, celestial qstaff and both celestial classes unlocked. Clearly I have spent quite some time on getting that gear.
I also have T11 a26 RS in a similar condition

Considerations on fighting GSs:
Pre patch, as RS I did not have that much difficulty to take down other GS besides my own one and maybe a few others I've ever faced. Other players, most without decent equip and strategy were actually not so often protected or couldn't benefit from being protected. However a full protect Auriga build was nearly untouchable. Is that OK? Probably not. Was the nerf exaggerated? Probably yes since now the protect rate in full protect gear is ~22% based on my tests. Effectively GSs are now the easiest class for me to KO, tied with RS.

Considerations on fighting as GS:
Pre patch, Hydrus was fast but unreliable. I could kill GSs, Gilgas and Her*s but Deities and RSs were a nightmare, even with dex gear. Without the protect celestial weapon it was actually quite risky. Now the damage is lower, it can 0 on some deities after the first turn, but all in all I can still KO the same classes I could before at round 1, but now death on second chance or miss is near-inevitable.
However it seems to me that ill-equipped GSH can still do decent BP2 damage at turn 1 without problems (my RS can). So did the nerf solve this problem? I think not.
Auriga was actually more reasonable as the attack class for me. The summons did good damage and I was almost untouchable. It was fair to nerf this, but now as Auriga I am protected roughly the same as Hydrus which makes no sense.

To sum up, a well equipped char now performs as a badly equipped char. I think this goes in the opposite direction of what you suggested.

[timber cove]

The issue with summoner has always been that well equipped characters perform close to the same as badly equipped characters, and this patch basically did nothing about that, it just nerfed summoner PvP

[cedar swift]

I understand why NF made the summoner less equip-dependant - you're introducing a new class with no equip yet present, you can't make it as equip-dependant as other classes because it would not be competitive. However I would've made a trade off in making summon boosts, pact damage, protect scale with item quality and level

[timber cove]

Yeah we all want that

[floral belfry]

My summoner didn’t perform anywhere near to what the usual GS performed. It’s just a testament to how bad their builds were. They just expected to go to GS and win.

For the block chance, it is a hit, but it also scales off the amount of summons on the field. There are ways to work with this, so I still think even the gear that is currently out is still decent enough to build around, even if it could be improved.

I disagree they released the patch with “no gear” to back it up

And which dex gear are we talking about on GSH? 😅 There are different kinds of dex gear…but I’ve had 4K dex builds abused by GSH

[timber cove]

Rift rogue probably

[cedar swift]

You start with 2 summons, there is no way around this in defence.

In attack you could call skeletons, hoping that 3 pop out. but again, attack is not a problem, defence is

[floral belfry]

😐

Do you have a block chance celestial weapon?

I just took off my augments last night 😅😂

Can I have a GS auriga pop in here?

(With a block chance weapon)

[cedar swift]

I do, wanna test?

[rugged sand]

theres just not really a way to mae your AI consistently cast something like summon dead

and it would affect your starting summons

[floral belfry]

No. I’m talking about offense for now.

Do you lose a lot if you equip your block chance weapon?

[cedar swift]

on BP?

[floral belfry]

No. Auriga. Summon play

[floral belfry]

We can test. I’ll just test a regular solid defense build and will go through the normal rotation

[cedar swift]

On a full summon GSA benefactor setup (celestial+charon) my G hydra does 55k dmg.
With protect celestial axe and shield it drops to 45k damage (but more frequent misses)

quadstrikes vs local deity @ round 1

[floral belfry]

What are you testing?

[cedar swift]

you asked do I loose a lot on offence if I equip a block weapon

[floral belfry]

I didn’t ask that. What I want to see is if you can win

Can you?

Win against a regular opponent?

[deep nacelle]

The build was really just to illustrate a point and because Benefactor Auriga bloodpact is funny, not really something I use, I always pvp offense with GSH and have Auriga on a defensive build usually

[floral belfry]

Yes. Your GSH….is 🤢

[floral belfry]

Well. Couple days post nerf. From PvP pov still think it’s good. It’s easier to defend. Sadly, they’re not broken how I wanted, so they can still hit. Definitely easier to remove. Some are harder to remove than others. I think it’s a step in the right direction.

I do have a problem with the MASSIVE move set pool the summons have. I counted 133 spells/skills only on t9/10 summons. I didn’t check if some summons have the same move. But it wouldn’t bring it down much anyways. That’s without t8 summons which are very used. 11 skills slots for base GS, prolly 11 for GSA and GSH too. That’s….a LOT of moves. An absurd number.

[rugged sand]

I mean you could say the same thing for all the pets nobody uses

[floral belfry]

We can only equip one. 😅 Not 11

Let’s be honest. I’m not asking for a nerf….but that’s a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of spells.

[turbid socket]

I will agree with this. I find the turn 1 advantage of summons vs any other class much higher than the turn 1 advantage of anyone else.

[floral belfry]

Yeah. I’m gonna hold off on saying the nerf is perfect. But after 700 or so matches already, I think it’s at least in the ballpark.

[turbid socket]

You can't hide your follower on your profile, however, like you can with summons. It's anyone's guess, whereas with Beowulf, you can pretty much wager they're using a physical, multi-hit follower.

[rugged sand]

realistically, there's only a couple viable summons at tier 10 though

[turbid socket]

Right. I've been getting hit significantly less and have more easily slowed people down, I will give it that.

[rugged sand]

one week after the nerf and I immediately lost a couple hundred territories lol. Still have no idea how to make my defense work now that protect chance is 5 times lower

I have almost 50k hp but its not enough apparently

[floral belfry]

Nah. I disagree. Haiti and the golems are the only ones I think are pretty useless

[vast bronze]

Welcome to the real world son

[turbid socket]

I've seen such a variety used successfully, so I'll have to disagree with that. Arcane Troll, Buggane, Ancient Dragon, Great Hydra, Chimera, Buggane, Anubis, Buggane, Buggane, Buggane.

[floral belfry]

That’s one of the builds I saw have some success. He holds well against everyone else, except me. But if I miss or he blocks I skip like 5

[turbid socket]

Buggane at T9 is a crime, honestly. Watching m'lady struggle in kingdom wars against T9 bugganes makes me so sad 😂

[floral belfry]

The dude I’m talking about has a starting “hp pool” of over 100k. That’s decent enough to hold against a lot of people

[rugged sand]

I mean protect chance is like 10% now, just kill the summoner

you dont really need to focus summons anymore

[floral belfry]

Isn’t buggane t8?

[turbid socket]

o_o

[floral belfry]

Yeah. It’s more about focusing on stats now. Like everyone else. The summons still hit well enough even with less summon stats.

But….

I should open a thread to talk about the gigantic variety of summons. 😆

[rugged sand]

what's your proposed solution, remove all the sumons?

[turbid socket]

We could leave them with slime summons as a replacement

[floral belfry]

Nah. Still don’t know. Maybe summons not having exactly the same moves as the mobs.

Summons with 4-6 moves are a bit overwhelming to prepare against.

And in most cases those moves are useless.

Reduces the chance of the summon using the attacks you want to be used

It’s just pointless to me. For both offense and defense

Wonder what @errant glacier thinks about that…💀

[errant glacier]

86 the ward moves so I can hit more 🤣

[floral belfry]

😆 I think I’ll get some support

[nova zinc]

Spot on

Pre patch i couldnt even hit summoners

The block chance legit nullified av2s second hit chance it was almost bugged

Can't speak for PVE but it feels at least fair now, even though can still steamroll territories

[nova zinc]

Turn 1 beo hydrus is pretty nasty

Can go for 200k+ low ascensions turn 1

With seemingly infinite m1

Biting my tongue for bringing it up but back to the point i think GS is balanced for now in comparison to prepatch

[floral belfry]

Oh that one is next. I’m just waiting to see how Selene hands affects damage. 💀

[nova zinc]

U wanna see?

[floral belfry]

Nah. I’m good 😂😂😂😂

[nova zinc]

Its a Verse / Hybrid monster thing not really an augment thing at this point

[turbid socket]

I just started hearing about that! Considering the stories I've been told, I have to agree :P

[turbid socket]

So you're saying it's less about the hybrid augments and more about its passive ability?