#Heart of Change (ascension mat refund) Feedback

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

inland isle
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reminder this is a mostly mobile game, so i can imagine the playerbase are more casual

tame sentinel
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It's very much an opinion and game style/game design difference. Like, counterstrike v. teamfortress, or league v. dota, or orna v. hoa.

ARPGs without respecs play very differently than ARPGs with them. Orna with and without respecs would also play differently. I know which one I prefer personally, and I'm wondering which one NF prefers. Given that the game started without a respec system, it seems like the answer is kinda obvious -- hence all the questions about "what changed" and so forth.

limpid salmon
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If this game is your current obsession and your full life I can see why you would like respec never existing.

But those returning or just been stuck with the same thing a respec system is always helpful and not a determinant. The ones who oppose the respec typically seem to be the ones who go "I played every class 3 times and found the most optimal build! Yet others can respec into freely..." all I got to say is best way to fight respec is not to talk/brag about your super uber secret build and then also wonder why everyone is running it the next week 🤣

upbeat geode
# tame sentinel It's very much an opinion and game style/game design difference. Like, counterst...

Yeah that’s fair. I’m of the camp “everything other than gear grind should be trivialized for a mobile rpg” so leveling once done, never need to do it again. Stat increases to character (asc) once done never need to do it again.

The grind is solely on gear (and I guess pets?) if the difficult is too easy/trivial, increase it via gear.

I’d change my mind if you can allocate stats but you can’t.

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Agreed it’s a more shallow / thin experience overall, but for a mobile game, I think there’s enough grind depth in gear to make stuff really interesting.

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In the big scheme changing ascensions I don’t see as different than changing classes or specs

junior lark
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I agree with this

acoustic sky
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Id rather we just revamp ascensions to apply across the account, not per class, personally. Nip the need for a respec token in the bud.

ebon stump
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I don't think the issue is more or less prohibitive. I think the issue is the respec needs to be appropriately expensive for the effort of ascensions its returning.

If there was an item that existed that cost 1000 tower shards and only worked foe ascensions 1-10, I would have no complaints. Let new folk sample the end game classes, try them all, regrind the small amount of orns, and then eventually commit.

But beyond that, the cost should scale exponentially. If players have made it to ascension 50, there aren't any knowledge or time excuses. The cost for that refund should be waaaaaay higher in 300k shards

acoustic sky
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Are we getting a free respec off the bat or is this a "grind 300k shards or pay $15" only kinda thing?

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I think we should get the option of a freebie if this is going to be a thing going forward.

brazen totem
brazen totem
west stratus
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I would push for 15, partially because of selfish reasons (Im AL 14 currently). Its hard to decide what would be a good limit though because it will always feel like either not enough or too little to someone.

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I said that wrong....

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Either not enough, or too much to someone.

upbeat geode
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I don’t understand why the effort needs to be comparable to the original effort. You don’t need to level another character from 0 if you want to play a different class, the effort you put in to 250 is instantly applicable without any effort. Why must ascensions be different? I disagree with 10-15 at a time. Should just be all or nothing. If it’s 10-15 then lower the unit cost of it so sure for edge case 50-100 it’s more but make it as frictionless as possible for 30 and under

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In the current state of the game gear drives the most performance. Levels and ascensions are a distant second place. Why put all these hoops for ascensions when it’s really just an extension of level?

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249 to 250: your stats grow you are slightly stronger. 250/0 to 250/1: your stats grow you are slightly stronger

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Put in other words you may as well say 250/100 is a level 350 character

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I can swap as 250 realm to heretic to gs to whatever I want whenever I want

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Yet I can’t do that as a level 350 character

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The stronger you get the more locked in you are: claustrophobia, boredom

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Applying this to a different current game mechanic.. then should 250 pay more orns to change specs?

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They know what they’re doing everything they do should have a higher cost? I don’t think that holds

wise vortex
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Just to nitpick a little ,vinegar can act as a disinfectant and wouldn’t be the worst thing to pour on a bullet wound

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But idk how to feel anymore, if players really want to play another class, whats stopping them? They don’t need the 40+ al to enjoy the class do they?

upbeat geode
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Can someone give me a rough orn / cost cost for full 50 asc?

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Ballpark

gentle lava
upbeat geode
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Ok sweet 3b

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And 127b gold (lol whatever)

gentle lava
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average costs obviously, your actual cost might vary based on rng

upbeat geode
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Here’s my point:
1-250 you can change for FREE
250 to 300 you can change for 3 billion orns

gentle lava
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also idk if that is accurate, but it should be

upbeat geode
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And people are arguing it’s too easy

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I argue why isn’t this thing free?

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Gear drives performance

gentle lava
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I think your arguments blends into the "AL should be account bound, not class bound"

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which is another discussion that seems valid

upbeat geode
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No for the purpose of this thread my argument is the cost of heart is too much 🙂

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Account bound would mean no orn gold cost

gentle lava
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fair enough

merry rock
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no one brave enough to start asc system topic in the discussion channel

upbeat geode
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Coz odie said park it

wise vortex
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Idk I think its a bit hard to discuss HoC without touching on ascensions at all

nocturne vessel
merry rock
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that's why i said discussion channel and not beta channel

nocturne vessel
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Well, the thread exists. Feel free to move any ascension related discussions there

gentle lava
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I read above that games like Path of Exile have been better without a way to respec in them and I want to put that in context, as that is a wild argument:
Excuse my short PoE rant that is not entirely offtopic:
||Orb of Regrets, the common respec item, has been ingame since Path 0.9.5 on December 21, 2011. At that point the game had 2 acts, around ~30 skills, about a year into alpha/beta testing.
At the same time PoE offered unconditional full respecs at every decently sized patch, for everybody.
Saying the game got objectively worse after that change is hard to believe.
Finding a item that requires a certain amount of stats would require people to play through the entire game again, forcing them to abandoning their old characters, just to distribute 6 skill points slightly different to use the new item they just found.
This is before considering a sword user just found a great axe and not has to respec or make the same character with axe instead of sword passive skills.
This can also be seen through the changes over the years, making access to Orb of Regrets easier and easier, with talks about "free respec before level X" and similar being near an all time high.||

acoustic sky
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$15 for a respec is super steep

limpid salmon
acoustic sky
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Maybe more like $5 and limit it to once per balance pass.

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I'd still prefer there be no respec tokens at all, and just correct the ascension system.

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But if the tokens are going to exist

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Limit their use, reduce the cost.

tame sentinel
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PoE tangent
||Turns out the game was playable in alpha and closed beta. I played a lot of it then. Regret orbs were one thing; bandit rewards were another. Corrupted items were another change, originally unmodifiable at any point and then changed to using regret in combination with other orbs. Bench crafting, similarly brought in regrets. Ascension trees were originally not regrettable, now the atlas tree. Over and over again, the game introduced respecs.

For people that started playing the game later in its life, and certainly now, it's a vastly different game. The original goal was a better D2, not whatever it has become now. It's fine for games to change, but to say that "it didn't exist before respecs" is misinformed.||

upbeat geode
fallow oxide
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Just spent the last couple hours reading through all this, and I can see valid points on both sides of the argument. To summarize my opinion that I'll elaborate on below, I don't have a problem with Heart of Change, but I don't know that the costs or specific implementation is the right way to go about it, and I don't like it being in the runeshop.

I know some have questioned the timing of introducing this before the actual ascension overhaul and understanding how the current system may be changed, but from the studio's point of view (IMHO), I think this is coming now to help stop a loss of players that have been very vocal about disliking some of the balance changes coming and giving them an option to move their efforts to another class if they feel their effort in their current class is "wasted". Whether or not I agree with that sentiment is irrelevant, as the studio's top priority should be retaining and increasing an active player base.

I like the partial refund of getting back mats but not orns/gold. Some can call the orn/gold grind trivial, but to most of the player base it is not. The mat grind is absolutely brutal and the least engaging part of Orna by a longshot. Alt grinding and multiboxing and refinery dragging and dropping is just awful and not fun. Letting me have some agency in changing how those mats are spent and not having to go through that again is welcome. I really cannot understand the argument against this, as I've never heard anyone say they enjoy either alting or refineries. People do this because they have to, not because they want to. It's literal days of my life that I can't get back and now at least I can move that effort into something that I enjoy more and will want to engage with.

upbeat geode
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ainz you should post that wall on the other thread

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the 6 hour cd thread for opinions

acoustic sky
upbeat geode
acoustic sky
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Somehow I assumed an account reset

upbeat geode
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er

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ok can someone confirm lol

acoustic sky
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Needs to cost way less

upbeat geode
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yoshi's video suggests it's on the class you're ON right now

fallow oxide
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300k tower shards is trivial to some and impossible for others. 15$ is trivial to some and impossible for others. There's a population of people that 300k shards and 15$ is impossible. I don't like people being left out of a feature. I like the ideas floating around of making the cost relative to the number of ascensions actually being refunded, where it's relatively cheap for a few low levels and very expensive for higher level refunds. This values the commitment needed to get those higher levels and will make those decisions relevant and trivial. This system would necessarily mean not having a fixed price runeshop option. For those that don't have tower accessibility, there should be some sort of equivalent in game cost, but determining what is "equal" to a tower shard in other forms of in game currency is something that would need discussion.

gentle lava
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Cost scaling with AL is nice for the ingame currency variant

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but that would not work on the cashshop version

fallow oxide
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I think Bwubble mentioned it in his opinion thread post, but orna is inherently a game of grinding and adding a cash option to remove a significant grind feels against the spirit of the game. Buying shrines for temporary efficiency boost is one thing, but saying hey skipping 15+ hours for instant gratification for those that can afford it doesn't sit well with, to put it extremely mildly.

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As some one with disposable income I would absolutely pay that price every time as my time is worth exponentially more than 1$ an hour.

gentle lava
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The good part about that point is that this does not sell you direct power. It shifts your already earned and self farmed power from point a to b

fallow oxide
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This system rewards the haves and punishes the havenots

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agreed

small raptor
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Can appreciate. The runeshop addition actually came as a result of regular feedback we get, and we expected it would upset some. Getting those numbers right in a way that makes everyone happy is tough, to say the least

gentle lava
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Selling packs of 5 AL directly would be a hard no, using the stuff you already played for and giving it back to you is another (for me)

fallow oxide
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I'd rather see different in game costs to include the whole player base, all requiring some time comittment, but giving agancy on what time the specific player is willing/able to invest.

upbeat geode
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i'm advocating for the item itself to be nominal in cost both in-game as well as in runeshop.

fallow oxide
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That would also be a fair option

upbeat geode
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sticking to my argument of class swaps are free today, why make this exorbitantly expensive? it is already expensive, you lose a lot of orns

fallow oxide
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The time spent in mat grinding is the real currency here

upbeat geode
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15k shards, $0.99 in runeshop

gentle lava
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Yea I can see a world where this would be cheap to buy and the Orns cost being the real kicker

upbeat geode
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i'd also like it to be a shrine that randomly pops up

fallow oxide
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I think Zahar jokingly suggested that using Heart of Change also drain exisitng orns, and TBH I don't hate that idea as a real suggestion.

gentle lava
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There are several ways to stop the "abuse of spam swapping classes" like less return of materials after each change that resets every X months or at balance patches

upbeat geode
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just like exp/orn shrine

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see i don't understand why that's ABUSE

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you can swap class for FREE today

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is that abuse?

gentle lava
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thats why i put it in " "

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i dont think that is a problem

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but some obviously do

upbeat geode
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gear is the driver of performance imo, not class selection

gentle lava
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its an argument i read multiple times yesterday, so i wanted to address it in advance

small raptor
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This was always likely to be divisive. Not sure it's abuse, but not everyone was expected to be thrilled. I can understand the concerns of some, and the excitement of others

upbeat geode
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it's like.. when GS launched, and it's a beast in pvp.... many people swapped to GS for pvp. if you have the gear to pull it off, why not?

gentle lava
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Using ingame mechanics given to you by the game is not abuse

upbeat geode
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gilga can't do endless well with orns. realm can. gilga swap to realm to do endless with the gear

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seems perfectly reasonable

gentle lava
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that is like saying "you just shot the elden ring boss with arrows from the highground"

fallow oxide
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I think the concept is great and will be a welcome addition for the majority of the player base. I think the implementation needs to be carefully considered.

upbeat geode
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FFFFFFFF forgot to turn off ping sorry

small raptor
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Grrrr

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Haha all g, I've been reading here non stop

gentle lava
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didnt turn off ping, your opinions are no longer valid

astral minnow
upbeat geode
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^ i bet that ping wasn't turned off either 😛

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what's interesting here tho is i think people are voicing "what they want to see this game to be"

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and what game vector is the "investment" vector

small raptor
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He pinged in Canadian though, much more polite

upbeat geode
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there's clearly a camp that says, ascensions is an investment vector, you have to be judicious about it

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there's my personal pov which is gear is the only investment vector, ffa on anything else

fallow oxide
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My first thought in using this is to refund the 25al I put into deity because I needed a horde build until I could make an efficient gilga build. I strongly dislike playing deity and never touch the class anymore. Those mats will either go into ascending my realm further or possibly starting a third class in beo hydrus for a real hybrid playstyle. But I've never felt the exisitng 1/3rd refund was worth the time I had to put into those AL's.

gentle lava
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I'd argue Exp is another once of the important ones

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but that is hard capped obv

upbeat geode
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it's funny, coz gear is actually also hard capped

gentle lava
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My first thought wasn't "i want to respec now", it was "if i ever not enjoy Beo anymore i can now take the time i invested in it and use it on the class i enjoy"

upbeat geode
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you can technically farm and get everything you need

fallow oxide
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Gear really is the legit endgame grind

upbeat geode
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it comes back to my dopamine hit argument

gentle lava
upbeat geode
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gear is just more fun because of RNG factor

fallow oxide
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Everything we do, for the most part, is trying to get stronger, to grind faster, to get better gear.

upbeat geode
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hard cap in a moment of time

fallow oxide
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There's a small population of players that mainly play for pvp/areas, but even they need gear

gentle lava
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Numbers growing bigger is the driving factor

upbeat geode
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pvp/areas arguably need gear so much more than anyone else

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and specific gear too

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element, etc.

fallow oxide
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exactly

gentle lava
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Just the thought of being able to change my AL and the time invested into it if I ever wanted to gives me a good feeling

upbeat geode
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moi aussi

acoustic sky
# upbeat geode yeah, coz asc are tied to class...

I saw the $15 price tag and thought, "Ho boy, that's pretty hefty for Orna." From there I was trying to justify the price tag in my mind and then it was a hop and a skip to "must reset the whole account."

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On retrospect it doesn't make much sense.

astral minnow
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Sorry about the ping @oḍie

acoustic sky
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But then neither does a $15 respec token for one class.

upbeat geode
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Exaaaaactly

fallow oxide
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I'm kinda torn on making the cost very low, but I think its a valid opinion. I think that endgame decisions should be meaningful and not made willy nilly. Choosing to invest time and resources should be made with care, and moving those levels should require the same thoughtfulness. I wouldn't want to see a system implemented with so little cost that it would just promote meta chasing.

gentle lava
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Farming up another 800m orns is something that is quite the investment for everybody but the top 0.1%

acoustic sky
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The Orna Bourgeois

fallow oxide
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Honestly that's why I liked z's idea of the heart also costing remaining orns.

nocturne vessel
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Oh, costing all your remaining orns? Hm. That'd force everyone to restart the orn gathering from scratch, rather than stockpile them before swapping

astral minnow
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That's an idea I can get behind

nocturne vessel
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So now you're left with whatever class you reset at AL0, and 0 orns

acoustic sky
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I just wouldn't ever use it.

fallow oxide
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Not just moving everything to GS, farming up billions of orns, and then switching al to the real class you want to play and imneaditely reascending

gentle lava
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that would make the item instantly never used by most players

nocturne vessel
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that would mean that the item would only be used by those who actually really want to swap class, no?

fallow oxide
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Which in all honesty it shouldn't be used by most players

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pretty much

acoustic sky
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Because of alts

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Groups

gentle lava
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It should be used by everybody that doesn't enjoy their class anymore

acoustic sky
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Etc

fallow oxide
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And at the same time, I don't think the majority of the playerbase would use it that way, only the sweatiest of the sweats

nocturne vessel
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Isn't farming orns with alts a lot less worth your time than soloing?

fallow oxide
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So trying to balance between accessibility and limiting "abuse" is always the real balance discussion

gentle lava
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consuming all orns would make it a 0.01% player item instantly

nocturne vessel
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party fights have some pretty gnarly orn reductions

gentle lava
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well for pure orns its worse than solo endless

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but you stockpile mats

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to feed into the refinery

astral minnow
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I'd use it to simply get back mats for classes I don't care to use anymore, maybe especially so if the balance patch alters some form of enjoyment I had with those classes

fallow oxide
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yeah, party/alt farming is much more about materials than orns except for the elite few

nocturne vessel
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won't lose orns if you have none to begin with

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The orn loss would impact those that have billions stockpiled more than anyone else

gentle lava
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I'd much rather address this "problem" by giving you less materials if you use the item again and again

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but 1 time users should not be punished

astral minnow
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Then no one would it

fallow oxide
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I really like the sliding scale system where committing 10al into trying out a class and realizing it isn't for you isn't a massive cost, but saying i want to move 100al is a real hard decision and extremely resource/time intensive

astral minnow
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I have every ☆10 class ascended, that's punishing for me. I'd need to in theory use it at least 4 times to get back my not fun classes.

gentle lava
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imagine some dude comes back to finally swap his AL to the class he wants to enjoy

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and then he has 0 AL and 0 Orns

fallow oxide
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And I can't see any way to implement the system that way when it can be bypassed by real money

gentle lava
nocturne vessel
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diminishing mat returns per use not only punishes players with ascensions spread between various classes, but it also gives people the whole "too good to use right now" fear with consumables
"What if I want to swap to a different class later? I should probably just save the heart for later"

gentle lava
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again, that could be per class based

nocturne vessel
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Okay - first point adressed ahah

gentle lava
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👍

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Its just addressing the "issue" of "some people will swap all the time"

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which for me personally is not even an issue to begin with

floral prairie
nocturne vessel
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"Upon using the Heart of Change, your pets will have a Change of Heart and will no longer follow you"

small raptor
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People swapping all the time is solved by it costing a scarce and valuable material, no?

acoustic sky
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Not if they can just pay for it

small raptor
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Diminished returns on each use just gets us back to a place where people feel boxed in again

gentle lava
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Big Orns banks and runeshop could get around it

astral minnow
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No lolol

nocturne vessel
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Yeah, the constant swapping is a fear of those who expect others to abuse swapping via buying it on the runeshop

gentle lava
small raptor
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How realistic is that? And what's the impact?

gentle lava
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Idk, but that was an argument against this system yesterday

nocturne vessel
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If I remember correctly, it was something among the lines of

gentle lava
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I dont think its a problem

nocturne vessel
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Swapping to big farming classes like GS for massive orn bonuses to overcome the orn loss of ascension swaps, and then swapping to whichever class is best at doing whatever content. Someone's big fear was people swapping to meta classes on pvp defense on downtime and what not

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Don't quote me on that. I don't share the viewpoint, and I might've botched it, sorry

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I'd ping whoever it was if I remembered who it was 😅

astral minnow
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That's pretty accurate iirc ^

gentle lava
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that reflects my memory of it

small raptor
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The PvP thing is to do with Ascensions as a whole, not this change. Again, that'll be later (but soon)

gentle lava
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both of those could be addressed with diminishing returns w/o effecting the average player i think

small raptor
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Diminished returns affects people who want to play over years

astral minnow
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Diminished returns on mats = won't get used, just go use your altar

small raptor
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I don't like that solution, honestly

gentle lava
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reset it once a month

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or something like that

small raptor
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It seems to be aiming to solve a non-problem. Or a problem that will be addressed in our Ascensions patch

gentle lava
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tbh, i am not convinced that its a problem at all

floral prairie
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Yeah a cooldown on it seems more appropriate

nocturne vessel
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A thought crossed my mind

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what if the Heart refunded all classes' ascensions other than the one you currently have selected?

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It'd help people with spread ascensions

small raptor
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This system was designed to account for folks who don't want to descend their main class

nocturne vessel
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And wouldn't make people re-pay for the class they actually want to ascend by having it selected

small raptor
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Oh, other than. Hmm

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What if folks like two classes?

nocturne vessel
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Some people raised concerns that if they had their ascensions spread, and wanted to refund several, they'd have to buy the heart three or four times which is kinda prohibitive

nocturne vessel
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a... checkbox menu?
for which classes to nuke?

small raptor
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One at a time seems fine. Or maybe an additional item for all classes but the one you are on.

From what I've seen though, that's not the larger concerns shared by people.

nocturne vessel
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Just raising some of the concerns I have seen, since I don't see one blaring concern shared by everyone to raise at the moment heh

small raptor
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We're reading it all, don't stress

steep mauve
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Personally I would like a building you use the heart at that has a cool down 6 months.

The quality of the heart(this would be the hardest part on the dev side) would determine how many ALs you got back.

The rune shop would be cheeper like 5$ and then reset 10.

The shard cost is 50k per AL (this is two f50 towers ~1.5 hours for big ALs)

Thoughts?

nocturne vessel
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:)

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@fallow oxide you were gonna post your thoughts on the other thread right?

small raptor
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I believe they said later. Inferring they wanted to collect thoughts and articulate well

nocturne vessel
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Was just making sure I hadn't misinterpreted.

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If they're gonna post, just here to say that, do dm me or ping me if you want to post something that exceeds character limit hah

nocturne vessel
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the current cost would net you a whole 6 ALs

steep mauve
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Again it is two f50 towers

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Which is quick when you are high ALs

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And I think this should be a long term goal.

small raptor
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This being not accessible enough had been argued pretty heavily here - this proposal is the opposite way.

Each to their own, we'll try work out what we think most people align with

upbeat geode
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Also why is meta chasing bad

steep mauve
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Thanks Dangy! Sick video with shabash the other day. Looked fun!

upbeat geode
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If I have the gear to support the class, everyone meta chases today

small raptor
upbeat geode
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It’s called… swap class

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Ahem off topic dangy mightiest_mimic mightiest_mimic mightiest_mimic

steep mauve
steep mauve
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F ping

upbeat geode
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Ya isn’t the whole point of free class swap “use meta for diff content”

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You use realm for endless as gilga - meta chasing

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I’d argue that’s by design and a feature

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That’s my counter to those who argue ascension moving = “abuse” or “meta chasing” - it should be encouraged and freely allowed

floral prairie
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Meta chasing isn't bad itself everyone does to some extent
But abusing the current broken class/mechanic is chessy for sure

upbeat geode
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But that’s why CCR exists and balance patch seeks to address

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We shouldn’t lock players in because unbalance exists

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In fact if players can move more freely the studio can see unbalance faster

steep mauve
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The only reasons I can think of boil down to I don’t like having to feel like I need to play x class to interact with y content to maximize my income

fallow oxide
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A balance patch will change the meta but not get rid of one. There's always going to be an optimal way to do specific content. Hopefully the balance patch will significantly reduce the gap between most efficient and alternative options.

upbeat geode
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But you do with realm for endless Ross

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It’s literally more efficient than gilga

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I do with caster for horde

steep mauve
small raptor
gentle lava
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Meta chasing power gamers will find a way regardless

floral prairie
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I guess it isn't really that bad if players utilise something that's currently overperforming infact might be a good thing
Like with aegir many people did their endless x early which would take them a long grind otherwise

steep mauve
fallow oxide
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There's a big difference though in enabling meta chasing vs acknowledging it can never be fully removed.

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So I think it has to be considered in adding this type of feature

small raptor
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Fwiw, the consideration is a lack of Orns return

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It would be too challenging to repeatedly utilise a Heart, because the Orns are not as simple to recover for most users.

gentle lava
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For me the power gamer argument is one of: should the average game enjoyer take a step back to safeguard a mechanic from the top 0.01%

fallow oxide
#

This is one of those things that I'm always torn on. Working towards my 4th year in Orna and being one of first few dozen players to hit 250, today's game is exponentially easier to progress in than when I did it. Just because someone today can hit 250 in a couple months, where when I did it, doing it in less than a year was very impressive, doesn't invalidate my efforts. So in the same vein, if someone wants to devote money and time to maximizing their output and efficiency to the bleeding edge, still won't invalidate how I choose to the play the game. On the other hand, the thing that has kept me in Orna all these years is that it isn't P2W and someone can't simply bypass my efforts with daddy's credit card. Orna is rewarding because what you put into it is directly proportional to what you get out of it.

upbeat geode
#

The consideration of orns is on apply, not on remove

small raptor
#

Yes

upbeat geode
#

Yes

small raptor
#

I'm lost, was that a question

small raptor
fallow oxide
#

I don't know that I think its p2w either.

small raptor
#

Cool, just wanted to clarify.

#

Folks tend not to talk openly about the desire for more stuff on the Runeshop here on discord, as they often feel it will get shot down or they'll get slammed for it - but we definitely have an audience that desires it.

fallow oxide
#

I think my biggest hangup is that I don't think it should be a static cost.

small raptor
#

We just always try to strike that balance, where it's still acquirable in game

fallow oxide
#

I don't think refunding 10al should be the same as 100al

small raptor
#

Yep, we've noted that desire from a few people

fallow oxide
#

So then having it in the runeshop makes those dollars spent significantly more efficient when refunding more levels

#

But I totally get why players want the option in the rune shop

#

Even changing it to give back a set number of levels back makes the person who gets back levels 90-100 a much better investment than the one who returns levels 1-10

#

Maybe the cost in shards or dollars should be proprtionate to the amount of mats returned

#

Low cost to allow newer players to experiment with different playstyles to find what they like

upbeat geode
#

Counter argument: class swap is free for 250 or 25

#

Why must it be harder for 100 AL

#

Spec swap is fixed cost for 250 or 200, same argument

fallow oxide
#

I think the choice to dedicate the time and resources to get to AL100 should be meaningful

#

Getting from 25-250 is just playing the game

upbeat geode
#

I see your point but disagree so just wanted to offer opposite opinion

#

(Not trying to convince you of my pov either)

fallow oxide
#

Agreed, and I see your point as well

upbeat geode
#

Swapping ascension should be just playing the game as well

fallow oxide
#

I can see that future, and I don't hate it

upbeat geode
#

Because in my mind ascension is just lifting the level cap

#

You’ve paid the price already, it’s the mats

fallow oxide
#

I'm having difficulty expressing what my hangup is on making it too easy, so I'll need to think about that a bit more and see if I can articulate it

upbeat geode
#

You’re now paying the orn price which is proportional to AL btw

#

Putting yet another exponential curve on top of the orn one seems excessive

fallow oxide
#

And that I totally agree with. The real price you've paid here is the mat grinding/refining

upbeat geode
#

Ie I’d even argue the orns come back (as a hypothetical red herring)

small raptor
fallow oxide
#

🥰

upbeat geode
#

But everyone other than my opinion is wrong tho

#

(And off a cliff we gooooooo)

fallow oxide
#

that goes without saying

#

lol

upbeat geode
#

Everyone is just mature and thoughtful and wrong

#

😈

fallow oxide
upbeat geode
#

Jk the debates have been good

fallow oxide
#

Yeah this has been a great discussion

upbeat geode
#

It’s good because it’s legitimately different opinions for what a “fun” game is which is at the essence subjective in nature

fallow oxide
#

A few hiccups at the beginning which is honestly why I waited until today to engage. Really wanted to think about the pro's and cons, and see both sides.

#

One of the most important lessons I learned was that if you only know your own side of an argument, then you don't actually know very much of that either.

small raptor
#

The highest unfiltered passion tends to come at the start of this sort of topic, for sure.

solid pecan
#

I honestly don't know why so much fuss about this, maybe I am too dumb to understand why people are so against,is not like hooo, that's a huge head start from me (hypothetically speaking)who I am AL 30+-, or is going to close the gap between me and the guy who is 100al over me.

Can someone explain in what way shape or form is going to affect if you don't want to use the item?

astral minnow
#

Being able to switch all your ascension level on a whim to the best class for the specific activity you want to do is OP.

upbeat geode
#

You can switch classes today for free

solid pecan
#

Realistically speaking the guy who is 100 al is not going to change(well maybe a few) why because by that many AL I don't care about changing either.

astral minnow
#

A 100% power increase is huge.

upbeat geode
#

Yes it is but they earned it

#

So is leveling to 250, huge

#

And you can swap classes for free

fallow oxide
#

From that standpoint then why not just have AL be classless and simply apply to the player?

upbeat geode
#

Functional difference in it still costs orns to reapply

fallow oxide
#

I think the answer to that question is that the system is designed with the intention of making endgame decisions meaningful and not trivial. So if we accept this as dev intention, then the design of this item should also respect that intention.

upbeat geode
#

Yep and I challenge that

#

Maybe it was but maybe it’s not today

astral minnow
# upbeat geode But why

Imagine you're a lowbie, trying to take your local area from someone with 100 AL in realm.

They notice you taking areas and decide to switch all those AL over to gilga or deity to stop the area takeover, classes with much better stats and passive to hold areas.

upbeat geode
#

They invested the time to get 100 AL they can do whatever they want with that investment

#

I don’t need them to feel handicapped fighting me as a lowbie

astral minnow
#

Many of the highly ascended players are ascended in one or two classes only. Opening that strength to all open classes is just way too much power, moving around.

fallow oxide
#

That's fair, and perhaps this is a point that could be clarified by Dangy or Odie. Because ultimately, if that is no longer the intention, changing the AL system to be cross class would be the easiest solution. But I have to believe that since that isn't what's being done, and an item is being introduced to make there be a real cost to refunding and moving ascension levels it is safe to infer that the decision is still intended to be meaningful.

small raptor
upbeat geode
#

I don’t think anyone is nilly willy moving to defend a territory and then moving back

astral minnow
#

Are you sure?

upbeat geode
#

So mat costs reset

#

So you can actually be mat blocked

nocturne vessel
#

That argument works both ways - you can also be mat unlocked

upbeat geode
#

Am I sure people won’t spend 3 billion orns to defend a territory when they’re under attack and then move back? Yeah.

astral minnow
#

I bet they would/will

upbeat geode
#

If they care that much they’d stay in whatever is best defense 24/7

astral minnow
#

Not if they could swap to Best Class for × on a whim

fallow oxide
#

Yeah, I don't buy the swap to defend territory argument as valid either. While there is a non-zero chance that a couple players might do it, I think it would be a hysterical waste of resources and indicate an obsession borderlining a sickness lol

solid pecan
small raptor
#

To reiterate - this discussion relates to Ascensions as a whole (Ascensions in PvP). We will be reviewing the system in an upcoming patch

west stratus
gentle lava
#

if somebody wants to spend 6b to move al around for a terri defense - honestly - good for them, more power to em

fallow oxide
#

pretty much lol

upbeat geode
#

I’d like to see it live just to see people do that tbh

astral minnow
#

Does the heart cost anything atm?

upbeat geode
#

300k shards

astral minnow
#

Apart from initial shard cost

west stratus
small raptor
upbeat geode
#

Yes the orns you lose

gentle lava
#

if they want to put that much effort into it

#

let them

astral minnow
#

The current iteration of HoC is you lose the gold and orns you previously used to ascend. That's it.

fallow oxide
#

it isn't that you lose them persay, its that they aren't refunded with the mats

#

So the feature as it stands now if it was in live would be pay 300k tower shards or 15$ and get refunded all of the materials you paid for the ascension levels you spent on the currently active class.

#

Class AL would go to zero, mats would be added to inventory

astral minnow
#

The ascension that get reversed , will the ascension materials needed be randomized the next up?

gentle lava
#

Orns are much more fun to farm than materials to be honest

fallow oxide
#

Yes

gentle lava
#

That has to be said

#

you can farm orns with any content

astral minnow
#

Ok then ignore that last stuff

#

Ha

gentle lava
#

getting silk as an example, forces you to farm low tier gauntlets

#

(if we ignore refineries for a second)

#

I dont enjoy farming low tier gauntlets

#

so the idea of farming the orns is much more fun to me

fallow oxide
#

Agreed

astral minnow
#

I assumed the mats would be the same as last ascension, so I figured it was just a free refund on those mats. As orns are easier to farm than mats.

gentle lava
#

Mats required on a new class is random

#

its not the same you refunded

astral minnow
#

It isn't a new class though, you already ascended it ?

fallow oxide
#

Orn farming is the least painful part about endgame because at least you are doing on tier content. Endless can be fun, hard boss can be fun, etc

gentle lava
#

you might refund 2000 cort on your AL30 reset and then run into 7 cort blocks by AL 10 on another

astral minnow
#

The ascension material requirements change after HoC use

fallow oxide
#

Low tier alt farming is about as interesting as watching paint dry

gentle lava
#

i'd rather tie my shoes for 2 hours than farm t3 gauntlets

nocturne vessel
#

Okay you say that, but I genuinely enjoy tying shoes

fallow oxide
#

And just imagine how long it would take to untie lol

astral minnow
#

He'd just do the one tie really really slow

#

Maybe take breaks

#

To hydrate

gentle lava
fallow oxide
#

Need someone to hold this rabbit ear for me for a quick smoke break

gentle lava
#

try it

astral minnow
#

E Z

west stratus
#

I dont have to try it, I have a kid I have been trying to teach how to tie shoes.....

#

I dont even remember being taught myself lol

gentle lava
#

its much easier by showing them but verbally is so damn hard

astral minnow
#

Tie your shoes blindfolded and describe it to yourself

#

Step by painful step

#

My advice: Crocs

#

-suggest Heart of Crocs rename

nocturne vessel
#

Stay on topic please :p

west stratus
#

reminds me of the whole writing intructions to make a pb and j experiment.

solid pecan
#

Farming low tiers is less fun, than Farming high tiers, that's a interesting point of view🤔

To me is equal grinding, just killing different mobs, now with the horde solo is the same like farming high tiers.

west stratus
#

Farming hard to acquire low tiers can be easier than farming high tier raid materials.

solid pecan
#

Raid mats, is a different beast, let not mix oranges with apples.

gentle lava
#

normal mobs that drop raid boss mats when

solid pecan
#

I second this du

small raptor
#

Trialling this on a mirror of my live character (on Beta), refunding all my 33 ascensions in Gilgamesh and 18 ascensions in Deity allowed me to get 17 total ascensions in Beowulf - not because of Orn blocks, but because the material rolls landed on Realm Ore repeatedly, my least acquired material.

I don't think this will be as simple as dump and pump into other classes as some folks fear - there's still randomness to it. The only known quantity is getting your materials back 🙂

gentle lava
#

that would even out at some point with much higher AL but I agree with your point

#

rng spikes will still happen

small raptor
#

Yep, just wanted to run through it as folks seem worried that others will freely change their full ascension levels between classes

steep mauve
#

As now if I got court locked for the third time in a row. I could reset my ALs and get potentially to a higher AL with out grinding more mats. Just from the rng of al mat

gentle lava
#

Buying another one means you pay another 3b Orns, that is only something the top 0.01% would do

silent sandal
#

That would not affect my gameplay in any way

acoustic sky
#

Is chasing the meta a bad thing in a game like Orna? No one's winning a weekly prize pool for being #1

silent sandal
#

Unless people are getting paid to be top100 🧐

gentle lava
silent sandal
acoustic sky
#

It shouldn't.

silent sandal
#

Id be happy you get to change and be happy with a class of your choice

acoustic sky
#

It has absolutely zero effect on you

gentle lava
#

as I said, I agree with you

silent sandal
#

I know eheh just strengthening our point

gentle lava
#

If somebody would swap 7 times to min max their territory defence and farmed 30b Orns for it

#

more power to em

silent sandal
#

Exactly, if they have the ability to farm that much or are willing to

#

Well just accept it

gentle lava
#

But it was a concern for people yesterday, that's why it keeps coming up

small raptor
silent sandal
acoustic sky
#

I mean, I hate the alt play lifestyle the high ascension players are forced into, but I don't fault them for doing it.

#

Same thing here.

silent sandal
#

Realistically, the current system has two bottlenecks for the regular player: tower shards, orn loss

#

If a player does not feel these two are bottlenecks, then you shouldnt be bothered by it. You are wayy at endgame anyway 🙂

small raptor
gentle lava
#

Those darn pings

silent sandal
late hemlock
#

I don't think most of the players in this thread are dissagree with the mat refund. The conflict was burden for HIGH ASCENDED players are relatively low and causing widening the power gap.

We should focus on raising the costs for them not on the casual players.

here's my plan for it.
how about using shard of heart to refund all mat instead of a equalized burden for refund
the higher you ascended, the more shards you needed

for instance, if you have an AL 100, you need to grind 100x shard of heart to refund.(x can base on the times you refund, just a multiplies, can be further discussed)

formal magnet
slim kindle
#

My nemesis is cort here mimic

vague violet
#

Silphium Nemesis yy

still goblet
#

For a long time up until ALs appeared, there was a freedom to change class & use one best adjusted to the content a player was targetting; example: Gilga for pvp, RS for raids, etc.
ALs above a certain level (probably 20+) effectively locked players to that class, due to the time needed to farm the resources for next levels. Sure, no one is prevented from starting to ascend other classes, but why would one invest painstakingly farmed resources in other classes, other than the one with already significant development?
IMO whatever solution NFS comes up with could allow a similar feeling of freedom, with safeguards preventing cheesing.
Still, what difference does it make if one is an AL50 Here or AL50 Gilga? It's not like "refunds" would go from an AL50 Here, bring up a Gilga to AL45 or so, then feed back the Here (now being AL0) to anything more than it was before. At best.
It's nothing more than the freedom player had before the AL mechanism, so I don't really get all the toxicity against giving players back that kind of freedom.

#

One could argue that changing OTs is also unfair? Because why not? Once you've decided on an OT, "stick to it". It's the same difference.

#

Analogically to the freedom of changing OTs, I could see an opportunity of "transferring" ALs for instance, at the soonest once per week. With a minor penalty, or not.

#

Unless I'm not aware of changes to the spirit of Orna...
This is coming from an old timer; going on 5 years of Orna in June/July, I've been there from the start & can relate.

zenith lance
#

I like the idea of being able to refund AL and also really like the fact that you don't get orns back. That makes it a awesome way to take a break from your class after some people have maybe played it for 2/3/4 years. I think that being accessible in cash shop is fair and Okey because it definitely is not p2w, there are maybe only a handful of players who have hundreds of billions of orns to be able to swap classes multiple times and keep the same AL and they would run out real quick if they'd decide to do so. For this reason I think that this feature should not have a big cost associated with it and the 300k shards cost is prohibitive for a big chunk of players who don't have the time or the ability to grind so many tower shards. Just put the item for free and limit to 1 or 2 purchase per year. It being time locked would fix all the concerns that I've read so far tbh.

ebon stump
# small raptor Can appreciate. The runeshop addition actually came as a result of regular feedb...

Pinging because it's relevant to this post (sorry)

I think a happy medium between the heart being in the runeshop and not at all is something akin to a shrine for towers.

Think of a silver coin style item. It doubles all tower shard rewards in the next tower. Make it equally as rare as wisdom/luck shrines, make it $1 in the runshop. People can pay to shorten the grind, but they still have to grind something.

I'd also just like to see this item implemented I'm general, so it feels like a win-win to me

#

And then a non specific reply because I've seen it a fair bit again today.

My fundamental issue isn't with the refund being available. I've long made arguments on behalf of the non-discord, non-alt-farming playerbase. They deserve to have an enjoyable game experience as much as everybody else.

But I also, fundamentally, want player choice to mean something.

Currently when you see a player with 50+ ascensions in a class, it has merit to it. The player picked a class, and dedicated themselves to that class to (often times) an extreme degree. As silly as it sounds, there is prestige to that type of dedication. I know my fellow realmshifters at high ascensions have likely dealt with the pre bloodshift change world, they farmed horde content as ranger because it was what we had. Making refunds widely available removes the choices associated with getting a specific class to that level.

It hurts identity, and it hurts something that I just fundamentally like in my games. Purposeful decision making.

#

I also don't want to ping odie, but in response to his response to me:

The heart returning 10-15 ascension levels at a time would be a start, but I'd much rather see exponential scaling such that early levels are essentially free to refund, while later levels become more and more prohibitive

fallow oxide
#

Not sure about the tower coin/shrine idea, but I don't hate it.

#

The rest of what Bwubble said is spot on. This is what I've been having trouble expressing because I really do see both sides, but I'm firmly in the camp of player decisions need to matter.

west stratus
#

Tower coin idea makes the grind for other tower items too easy at that point I suspect.

fallow oxide
#

I like refunding low level ascensions cheap and increasing the cost, the more levels are being refunded. While I don't like the item at a fixed price in the store, it seems its going to be in the store one way or another, so maybe its a sliding scale cost like the shard idea.

west stratus
#

The only issue then is if there is a runeshop option it's incredibly hard to price.

fallow oxide
#

Not sure about the price point and if it should be linear or on a curve, but I'm sure there's a fair method to implement both with a reasonable increase.

#

Olaf using ascensions own increase curve is probably the most elegant solution

#

Just a matter of determining the starting price to make sure the top end doesn't get insane

west stratus
#

I could see a variable price in runeshop as being an issue for some. You wouldn't be able to scale it like an ingame currency cost I'd suspect. Since it would get out of control fast.

#

Might also be seen as more of a money grab from the top players

#

Even though I think we all know it's really not.

fallow oxide
#

The idea of grinding out 300k tower shards to refund 25al on my deity doesn't appeal to me at all, and I'd happily toss the 15 bucks at it. But not everyone has that option.

#

What's crazy is I have 32k sky shards just sitting because I didn't think I had a use for tower shards anymore lol

#

Ultimately I'm going to unlock another class and build at least one more weapon

ebon stump
#

I'm going to monopolize the chat some more, welcome to the Bwubble show. But I think I have an analogy for what I see as an ideal ascension system in my head. It isn't perfect, but it's close enough.

Imagine you walk into an ice cream store. There are dozens of flavors, and while you know you generally like chocolate, this store might be a different tasting chocolate. So you get a few sample spoons to try the different flavors.

I don't care how many sample spoons people want. 6 flavors? Go for it. 30 flavors? Great. 200 spoons? Clear out the stash. Feel free to sample until you don't want ice cream anymore.

But if you want the waffle cone. With the sprinkles, and the chocolate syrup, and the butterscotch pieces on top, you have to make a choice. Sure, you can buy two cones, but you are paying the exact same price for both.

That is how I envision ascensions. Sample classes to your hearts content, but to get the good stuff, make a choice.

fallow oxide
#

You had me at ice cream

ebon stump
#

(I don't even really like ice cream, I'm weird I know)

fallow oxide
#

😍

#

I won't hold it against you

#

More for me 😛

#

I like the analogy though and agree with the sentiment. Experiment a bit and figure out what you like, then start a real investment towards that. If you really liked something and invested into it, and now you don't and want out, this still solves that but requires a little more investment to make the change. It's balancing the upper and lower bounds to encourage experimentation while still making long-term choices meaningful.

#

I don't think someone with less than 10al should need to be paying up 300k/$15 the same as someone that got bored of their 100AL class and want to switch, but maybe we're in the minority on this one

#

The higher end players that may use this to refund smaller AL commitments in their non-main classes may be fine with the grind, but the newer t10 players trying to figure out who they want to be kinda get hit a little too hard for my tastes with these prices.

#

300k shards for a 225-235 fresh t10 is kinda bonkers

#

And $15 is a ton of money most of the world

ebon stump
#

I guess it's important to add that I have no real perspective outside of realmshifter. But realmshifter at ascension 0 and at ascension 48 is actually a completely different game.

I've changed builds, adorns, and strategies as I gained ascensions and the journey has been great. I've constantly be tailoring and min/maxing as I go, figuring out how far I can push the class at the current level.

Losing that entire journey would be quite sad. The first time I cleared a VOTG and BG wardless were big deals. The first time I cleared Amorri wardless was a big deal. But all of those were things I actively worked towards. Just swapping everything over loses that entire concept

ebon stump
#

I also consider anything under ascension 10 to be a sampling spoon in my ice cream analogy

fallow oxide
#

Exactly

west stratus
#

Im only AL14 and levels like this are why I want to be able to refund if I am going to switch to another class

Screenshot_20220204-174927_Orna.png
fallow oxide
#

Where we are in the game, raising a class to al10 could just be a whim on a random Tuesday, but that's a real commitment for a fresh t10 and that investment should be respected just as much from their point of view.

west stratus
#

That one level took me a couple months to go from 10 to 11.

fallow oxide
#

oof

#

early cort and realm ore block is brutal

west stratus
#

and silphium and scalestone

fallow oxide
#

Cheers on getting past it

west stratus
#

you dont realize how scalestone is rare until you need almost 700

#

3 things drop it.

steep mauve
west stratus
#

Sure lol

steep mauve
#

I didn’t want you to feel like I was going at you 😂 Did you think about leveling other classes before you overcame this block? Sounds like there was some time invested (months)

west stratus
#

At that time I didn't realize just how far behind Beo was from other classes. It was also right around the time of the last "buff" was being discussed. After the updates and the introductions of more and more content I couldn't keep up with the other classes.

steep mauve
steep mauve
west stratus
#

The need case is that the class objectively sucks. There also seems to be a difficulty creep since ascension was introduced. Now that could be in my head, but it definitely feels like event bosses and raid have gotten way more difficult over the last year or 2.

steep mauve
#

And maybe it is a personal failing. I don’t want to make you feel like I am singling you out. I just am very interested.

#

Agreed on the creep. I feel like an event boss has 10mil Hp minimum

steep mauve
west stratus
#

The dragon event made me feel the difficulty creep bad. Those bosses had insane HP and ward compared to anything else.

slim kindle
west stratus
#

Shoot the dragon bosses were still kicking around my area over 6 months after the event lol

steep mauve
#

I have ALs in realm and beo and I eventually maimed gilga. Now I am jumping on the realm train again. I think each AL has enhanced my feel about the game. So maybe I just don’t have the same experience.

steep mauve
#

Not about that comment just your AL side of things

fallow oxide
#

Ross, maybe my reasoning for wanting to refund my al25 on deity might make more sense. I never wanted to play deity, and I don't like playing deity, but all my ascension was in realm and gilga, and at the time horde content was frustrating as a solo player. So I made the choice to ascend deity to make some insane swash arrowstorm build viable to farm content, but it was all to feed my real classes and get one to the point that I could phase deity out. Now being able to get those mats back feels good.

west stratus
#

Really alot of the reason for me to not want to ascend another class is RNG really screws me over on materials needed. The realm ore and cort was easy compared to the silphium and scalestone. Scalestone was the last material I finished collecting.

#

If I were to run into a scalestone block again I don't think I could take it lol

#

DROPPED BY
Lizarr Lord
Giant Basilisk
Giant Red Basilisk
Arisen Lizarr Lord

fallow oxide
#

Low level mat grinding can be really frustrating. You either need low level alts or party members that have them and can play with you, or you just wait and suffer.

stray mural
#

or you just wait and refinery

fallow oxide
#

Refinery = suffering

#

😝ftroll 😝

west stratus
#

Ive been grinding ascensions since level 225, I went into t10 with alot of orns. And I only managed AL14 since Dec of 2021.

#

Material block from RNG have been brutal

steep mauve
west stratus
#

I kind of stopped trying to get any levels for the last 6 months or so though.

#

I think Ascension needs a tier system similar to levels. Then the refund could be per tier. Also would make PVP match ups more fair. Could even possibly ramp up difficulty on things in endgame for higher tiers.

#

but thats another discussion

steep mauve
fallow oxide
#

Godammit now I want ice cream again

#

I'm going to get ice cream now, and I hope you all are happy

#

I know I'll be very happy when I get back lol

upbeat geode
#

If we wanna use the ice cream analogy I see ascensions as the ice cream maker. I bought the freaking machine, if I wanna crank chocolate through it I can do that. If I change my mind and want strawberry it’s my machine let me have at it.

#

Y’all are like no. You bought the ice cream maker for chocolate. If you want strawberry ice cream tough shit, go buy another machine.

#

Heart of change is not a free refund it’s 3B orns for 50 asc. Anyone who’s like yeah 3B isn’t a big deal…. I’m like ?? It’s grindable, but I don’t think it’s not a big deal

limpid salmon
#

I think getting materials back without orns/gold was plenty of fair of having people earn their AL level back but also not a free switch 3 times a day.

upbeat geode
#

If someone can switch 3x a day, I bow down to their powers

#

They can have my ice cream, machine and all

fallow oxide
#

We can use the ice cream machine as the analogy, but you can't just run chocolate and then throw in strawberry all willy nilly. You have to clean and reset the machine first, otherwise you get strawberry ice cream with chocolate in it.

limpid salmon
#

Like you still earn your 50AL like let people change it if they desire. Just because you want it on a new class doesn't mean it's any less earned

fallow oxide
#

I completely agree with this statement. I just think the cost should be scaled to the AL, but I'm all for heart of change exisiting, and look forward to using it.

#

And now I really am getting ice cream

upbeat geode
limpid salmon
#

But I bet if everything is shifted to Beo class with almost no one playing in it and current popular classes become literal bottom tier and unable to do 3/4 of the content except at 10% that beo can I bet they'll want a respec then 🤣 they just oppose it now as they have a class that is functioning for now

upbeat geode
#

Why punish someone who’s put more effort more

steep mauve
# upbeat geode If we wanna use the ice cream analogy I see ascensions as the ice cream maker. I...

I dig the analogy. And also have an answer for the meta chasing. I thought about it all day, and my conclusion is that I just don’t like my choices having less meaning.

That’s the best I could come up with. Just an emotional “I don’t like that.” I wanted to put that out here in front of the 5 other people that will read it cause I think it is important to own up to what you think and it’s fine to take a stance on something that you just feel. But there isn’t a need to be a jerk. Ok I’m off my soap box. Have a great night/day y’all!

west stratus
#

In the past I would have been happy to wait and see how Beo turns out post update. But I remember how they thought what they did in 2021 was a huge buff. It made almost no difference whatsoever.

limpid salmon
upbeat geode
west stratus
#

And if we are all being honest. ALs dont do much until you have a bunch of them. The difference between 0 and 15 is barely anything. It takes like 0 and 25-30 to start noticing a real difference. And a split of 50+ for it to be obvious.

upbeat geode
#

I’d much rather be able to enjoy a choice I can make freely than to be weighed down by meaning and feeling trapped.

#

This is a game after all

fallow oxide
#

I tend to agree with what Bwubble said above regarding the importance of making these decisions meaningful. I completely understand where you are coming from, and if it gets implemented this way, I won't be even a little bit mad. I just really like the idea of making low level ascension refunds cheap to encourage experimentation, and then increasingly more expensive as you've basically made your decision and started your real endgame investment. Maybe I'm just hung up on buyers remorse in relation to meta changes and making that too accessible. In all honesty, I don't think it would really bother me either way, but currently I think the price is too high to encourage early t10 experimentation, so either it needs to come down drastically to your point, or move to a sliding scale which is where I lean towards.

west stratus
#

In my honest opinion the level of investment in ascension isn't even worth the rewards. Its just a material and orn sink. But after a ton of material sinking you finally see a difference. And don't want to go back to nothing again.

west stratus
fallow oxide
#

Car is warming up

#

Gotta let the turbos get to temp

west stratus
fallow oxide
#

And now I'm leaving lol

limpid salmon
upbeat geode
#

Continuing ice cream analogy… gear is the quality of strawberries and chocolate. That should be the focus

#

If people bought the machine let them use it freely with minimal swapping cost

#

3B orns is a hefty cleaning fee

#

You really can’t swap at will

#

And if you don’t have the gear it’s all moot

west stratus
fallow oxide
#

For contextt, I currently have 3 classes ascended. Gilga at 55 and both realm and deity at 25 each.

#

I really like both gilga and realm playstyles, and even more so now with the celestial classes and the changes coming from the balancing patch. Actually super excited to start ascending realm again.

#

And for what it's worth, I never expected to get my investment into deity back. I made the decision thinking it was a sunk cost and something that was just necessary for me to grind at the time.

#

I think though that heart of change can be more than just a way to fix buyer's remorse or boredom, and that if priced appropriately could really encourage t10 experimentation to try out different classes and really get a feel for the playstyle/s that suit you. This should lead to more player engagement and ultimately more long-term player retention. Long term players spend money and that's good for NF. Pricing this in a way to help develop more long-term players that don't feel locked out, IMHO, should be the real strategy here, and I still think a sliding scale is the best option to handle both sides of the argument. Cheap for small ascensions to encourage experimentation, and more in line with NF's current pricing idea to solve boredom/buyer's remorse. This way everyone wins. In the absence of that, I would have to defer to Signet's position of making it always cheap because honestly I think it's more important to continue to grow a healthy and happy player base than to cater to a smaller number of players for a quick but temporary income stream.

#

Also I got my ice cream

#

Hagen Daz Mint Chip

#

One of the best ice cream's on the planet

#

If you disagree you are wrong

#

No further discussion necessary

glass ermine
#

You are clearly wrong. Nothing Hagen Daz is even in the top five.

fallow oxide
#

lol I won't derail anymore tonight

#

🍻

glass ermine
#

I’m also done detailing for the night. I promise.

merry rock
late hemlock
#

anyone would consider ascending non t10 classes if the HoC on live?mimic
I would love to see the restrictions only on t10.

restive plover
#

personally i’d love a bit more options as somebody who doesn’t have a lot of time but i have a few bucks to toss at my favorite gaming studio.

if grinding out things without paying IS a valid option then it’s NOT p2w…. realmy is just miserable in towers. the OP bow made it not too sloggy. but after the update i won’t be using the bow anymore so therefore no more towers if i stay as realm. i’d never be able to de-ascend out 🤷‍♂️ …options are good

sudden willow
#

Man, this is crazy. I see absolutely 0 issue with people refunding at the cost of their orns, like who cares what other people do, don't swap if you like your class. Some people don't like their class anymore, would you rather see them dislike playing or just quit than be able to swap? Is losing millions/billions of orns not enough of a cost? It could make people excited to play and try something new without losing hundreds or thousands (in some cases) of hours worth of mats farming that went into a class they never want to use again. It's not like they can blast to ascension 50+ and then just change again, that's an insane orn investment.
Sure, you could ascend another class but some people either don't have the time or patience to invest in killing Apollyon 1000 more times, let them swap and enjoy farming orns again and doing dungeons, or towers to unlock new classes to try. Making decisions purposeful has its limits.
I've had many friends stop playing cause they don't like their class anymore or invested before a new mechanic or class came out. This additional is going to extend the end game imo. Like, it'll make people want to actually work on farming orns and stuff!

nocturne vessel
#

Honestly I'd be more against a celestial class refund than an AL refund

#

Refunding a class doesn't sit right with me

gentle lava
#

Celestial classes also benefit your entire account, due to unlocking skills. So you get a benefit regardless of actively using that class.

tardy hawk
#

This idea is pure.

#

There's nothing fair about keeping players locked to a class they once liked.

#

It is fair to respect either through grind or in real life money.

Can someone explain why respecting your AL on a class you no longer enjoy is wrong?

severe lion
#

While I still think the current implemantation is the bastard child of two opposed ideas, I don't feel that the respec cost isn't prohibitve enough anymore but that is is TOO prohibitive. If you want to give players freedom of choice, make it accessible to everyone and not (mostly) the already invested crowd. 15$ is a pretty steep price as is 300k shards for many, which probably feel most trapped between AL 10 - 20.

tardy hawk
#

15 dollars seems a bit much but I'm guessing this will be used sparingly and the main objective of allowing respecting AL is to increase enjoyment and game longevity (not meta chasing).

#

300k tower shards seems in line with tower content costs, which IMO are too high. But if a new class costs 200k respecting AL sounds fair at 300k

severe lion
#

With the ability to respec there is also an increasing pressure for the devs to balance classes/abilites/ascension levels, if they want to keep a healthy meta game. It's not making balancing easier. It accelerates the speed at which metas can get "solved" and adopted.

tardy hawk
#

Solving metas fast sounds nice to me. Both for power gamers and for devs to know what needs balancing.

brazen totem
#

Thanks folks, it's clear there is a lot of passion about this. To help us get the best holistic view, i've tossed a few #💡│suggestions up

normal jay
#

I don't think it makes sense to punish people for applying ascension to their favorite class when the meta has changed and will continue to change.
Give it all back and just do away with single class ascensions. Its a frustrating and annoying system that locks people into a system if they dont have 10 hours to grind away at towers+endless gauntlets.
If it comes back, apply it to all classes, but make it more costly.

ebon stump
#

It's early for the suggestions, but based on the broad feedback in this thread (Fuxy and I against the world), the results of the suggestions are suuuuuper confusing.

Do yall want respecs or not?!

gentle lava
#

being able to vote yes or no on every single one makes it hard to read.
Somebody that does not want respecs will just vote no on everything, but somebody thats wants one specific way of respec might just vote yes on one suggestion (and maybe even no on the others)

acoustic sky
#

But that's outside the scope of the balance beta.

#

I can understand people getting frustrated with the balance changes making their classes less powerful, in the case of the crit changes, Ultima rebalancing, etc.

slow basalt
#

I've been mostly staying out of this convo since I've been away/busy, but I'll add my piece:

While I see the arguments that an item like the heart could help reduce people feeling bad and the like, I don't feel like right now is the time to add it in.

I'd much rather the time be spent on fixing the ascension system and then if the heart is something that makes sense adding it in.

#

Overall I really really don't like the ascension system and I never have though, so I might be a bit biased.

acoustic sky
#

I think most of us dislike the current ascension system.

gentle lava
#

i enoy the system on my first character/class, but idk about getting up a second class

brazen totem
#

If a player wants to wait until ascensions changes before making a larger class choice, i think that's mighty fine.

If a player is okay with ascension as-is, but is locked in and wants to make a larger class choice and enjoy the game again now (especially considering balance patch), why would we deny them that?

acoustic sky
#

Like, is that fun?

gentle lava
#

Its a goal to work towards

#

which is fun

#

grinding silk or ancient stone might not be

brazen totem
#

is your personal fun-ness relevant when talking about another player's ability to make the class change that they may want?

gentle lava
#

I honestly think players being able to do what they want is a good thing

acoustic sky
tame sentinel
#

The Heart would affect my gameplay (because it is not solely targeted to "locked in" players and can instead be used for other reasons).
If it was solely targeting "locked in" players then I wouldn't care 😅

acoustic sky
#

I'm not against the release of the HoC, but I think releasing it now is putting the cart before the horse. I think the Ascension system needs revamped first.

tame sentinel
#

^ my long form explainer.

brazen totem
#

If it could be abused as suggested, I would tend to agree. but at this moment, using the Heart makes a player weaker.

it creates and orn and gold grind.

in our tests, getting back to the original AL on another class is not possible due to material cost differences.

using the refund as a form of respec will take days, weeks, to months. i don't think other players being weaker will affect your game as much as suggested

slow basalt
#

My only real concern is that the heart existing and the way it refunds ascension might delay or cause problems if/when ascension as a system is changed, if that's going to happen.

Much in the same way that certain towers items being left a bit overtuned for a while is making a lot of people want to jump ship from whatever class they were rocking while the items were overtuned.

It may very well make certain players happier right now, and that's definitely a good thing. I'm just worried that players might use it now and then regret their decisions later or be upset if the system is changed like it seems it's going to be.

Edit: And I'm sure there are fallacies in this argument, it's just where my head's at thinking about this.

acoustic sky
#

As in limiting Odie's options for where to take the Ascension system?

#

Or creating pain points when doing so for people who used an HoC?

brazen totem
#

An ascension rework, if deemed appropriate, would likely lead to the option of 100% refund. therefore, I'm not sure i see harm in a player using the heart now and an additional option later, so long as they understand the orn and gold aspect

tame sentinel
#

I'm not talking about other players.

Endless and raid rewards go like the square of player power. In my specific case, I could transfer everything from beo to GS and farm endless much, much faster and farther. Making up the ~5b orn loss is a drop in the bucket -- I've already farmed something like 4b orns just for 50F towers in the last month and change, and that's without trying super hard, as an example.

This Heart makes materials cost orns, and materials that took literal years to accrue could be purchased for several weeks or a month of gameplay. At that ratio, it's a no-brainer decision. If I'm playing efficiently, it's obvious what to do because the cost is relatively trivial.

In the short term, I would be stronger (going from mixed ascension to a single bigger ascension).
In the long term, I would be stronger (much faster farming leading to being able to ascend back a second ascension if I wanted to).

solid pecan
alpine pine
#

Im late to the party, and Im guessing this'll be the unpopular opinion, but I would really want to see Gold and Orns refunded as well. I appreciate that Orns are easier than Mats to come across, but people have spent a lot of time and money gathering those Orns. It makes sense in my mind to give players everything back to let them start climbing another tree right away.

brazen totem
brazen totem
alpine pine
acoustic sky
potent frigate
brazen totem
#

i know 😉

potent frigate
#

ah 😄

ebon stump
#

(Before I forget like usual, thank you for all of the conversation today Odie)

gentle lava
#

This brings me back to the point of: Should a system like this be so safeguarded that its not fun to use for everybody, just to safeguard it from abuse of the top 0.01%

tame sentinel
# brazen totem We could try to emulate this in the beta. If the heart is used on a level 50 be...

In my case, I'm mixed ascensions. This would be the beo mats go onto GS mats.

If I instead started GS from zero, even if I went from e.g. asc50 beo to asc40 GS, the orn cost would be easily farmed back in short order due to the sharp gain in endless rewards, and then it would be a permanent orn and raid speed and etc. boost thereafter. In a world where player power didn't turn into expo gains or in a world where the classes weren't intentionally way better or way worse at various contents, then yeah it couldn't be used this way.

If I went back to ascending beo following the switchover, the two timelines would look something like:
Immediate: beo50 gs0 v. beo0 gs40
A month: beo55 gs0 v. beo20 gs40
A year: beo70 gs0 v. beo50+ gs40
Two years: beo85 gs0 v. beo70+ gs40

Numbers are a bit hazy, but something like that.

#

Also the random ascension thing isn't... too big of a deal. Certainly comes out in the wash; no mats are lost.

brazen totem
#

well, that's less respec, more reinvest in what you are already doing. Sounds like a positive, no?

tame sentinel
#

It's not a positive to gain acceleration for nothing/from the ether, for me.

silent sandal
#

You are funelling your resources to a path you chose

alpine pine
brazen totem
brazen totem
astral minnow
#

I voted for full refund - after reading this stuff

#

Why not

#

Gimme lmfao

silent sandal
astral minnow
#

It just seems more fun, and forgiving.

tame sentinel
#

I spent those materials, and reaped their rewards. In spending materials, I increased my material accrual rate by a large factor. As well as pvp, non-material pve (raiding), etc. etc.

To then get those materials back is... an oddity.
Having the cake and eating it, too 😅 Unlike everything else in the game.

upbeat geode
#

fux in your example, i think i understand it. orns doesn't mean a thing and if you're primarily trying to min max you'd 1. invest all your ascensions in the "orn machine goes brrr" class like GS, make all the orns you need for refund AND ascensions, and then refund GS (say you don't need it anymore and then dump everything in to the new class. so in that example yes your "targeted" class would be faster. a few question:

  1. in your case you have the gear to support the new targeted class, gear is still a cap right?
  2. if you do that, how is that hurting others? that's the piece i still don't get
silent sandal
#

Why would I prefer to lock people out of a choice only because another player switches and becomes more efficient than me?

tame sentinel
#

For old players, the Heart has one meaning.

For new players coming up in a Heart-filled world, they should start thinking about ascending good farming classes and farming with them for a while before switching over to what they "actually" want to play. It's already somewhat like that in the current progression, but this is way way beyond the current non-ascensions progression's amount of effort required to cap.

upbeat geode
#

to add to this, i also think single digit people don't think 3B orns is a big deal in this game

a few have made that, and also a few have quit after doing that. quite a few people with 50+ asc have also stated they won't use it because they don't want to grind the orns needed even if they're interested in switching

upbeat geode
gentle lava
#

i think you misjudge the amount of new players that would "invest into the better farming class" for several weeks or months to then switch into the class they like

silent sandal
#

But endless is not the only way to farm though so no one is forced to choose a endless-farming class when starting.

brazen totem
#

if they do, i can moonlight as a financial advisor

tame sentinel
#

That's what I'm saying I disagree on. I never ever saw the materials as being "temporarily invested" -- this is a fundamental ascension system change from what it is now to that.

silent sandal
#

After these examples, I truly feel orns and gold should be refunded as well as materials. It would not change a thing and feels way more fair to the player that farmed

upbeat geode
silent sandal
#

Or at least 50% orns

upbeat geode
#

woohoo ping turned off this time

tame sentinel
#

Ascension is more like spending money on uhh... hiring a trainer, or gym membership. Not investing in a house. 😛

After you've paid the trainer and gotten your muscles, and worked harder and earned more money, now you're going back to the trainer to demand your money back.

upbeat geode
#

put simply, heart of change is saying you'll pay all your orns for more mats back

tame sentinel
upbeat geode
#

right but i'm saying it's not a fundamental change

#

you can disagree with current, but currently refunds is a thing

slow basalt
#

The current ascension refund system may as well not exist, as far as being generally usable.

tame sentinel
#

It is, in terms of degree. It's going from a 30% refund to a... 90%? giant? refund.

upbeat geode
#

that we can debate

#

i don't think 90% is fair

tame sentinel
#

Not 100% but certainly way way way higher than 30%.

upbeat geode
#

3B orns in exchange for mats for asc 50

#

i guess you can math out time invested for mats vs. orns

brazen totem
#

30% is free, fwiw

~90% has a price tag

upbeat geode
#

but i don't think is 90%

#

also plz don't use your orn gain rate 😛

#

use uhh... exp-less's

tame sentinel
#

years of materials vs. weeks/months of orn farm + 300k tower shards. It's dramatically lopsided.

#

It also means that your +orn gear is really +material gear wearing a disguise 😛

celest yacht
#

wut

upbeat geode
#

hey more ways to have currencies interplay is good for the economy

acoustic sky
#

12 years later

upbeat geode
#

a materials liquidity crunch is exactly the problem with this game

#
  • suggest ways to buy cort with orns ❤️
celest yacht
upbeat geode
#

perfect so we go from 30% to

#

2%

#

based on exp-less orn rate

#

i joke, but it's a matter of degree, not a matter of fundamental change

#

this isn't 0 to 1

#

this is 30 to max 100

#

but it's also not 100, because of the orns you lose

tame sentinel
#

I'm pretty comfortable with stating "30% to 90%", due to the ease of orn gain vs. the unease of material gain.

upbeat geode
#

suppose i go with you on that for a second (for the record i don't), i also see nothing wrong with 30% to 90%

tame sentinel
#

Yeah, I do. We've been over this 😛

fringe meteor
#

Will the data from swapping ascensions be tracked so it can possibly be used to point balancing issues that could persist after this balancing pass?

small raptor
#

We view live data on class usage, yes

upbeat geode
#

yeah i'm digging into this because it's an incremental change not a fundamental change... refunds exist today. people can hate refunds as they exist today but they do. this is just moving the scale more on a mechanic that exists

#

branding it as "whole new thing that doesn't exist" is inaccurate

#

the trade off is orns paid in heart of change + 300k tower shards + gold lost (lol) vs. materials lost in 30% refund, put very simply

tame sentinel
#

30% to 90% is not an incremental change 😆 30% to 35-40%, maybe.
30% to 90% is a dramatic, gamechanging change.

#

As in, changes the way you approach the game.

upbeat geode
#

i think it's possible people approach the game differently, i also don't see it playing out the way you'd expect

#

dramatic, sure

#

but the mechanism exists

tame sentinel
#

I'd much much rather see it go 30% to 0% than to ever go up. You'd rather see it go to 100% than ever go down.
Hence -- core disagreement.

upbeat geode
#

yup

#

i'm using words so others can also see my point of view too, less about convincing you... i know exactly where you stand 😄

frank patio
#

What is the worst that can happen? Not a hypothetical. Lay out your worst case scenarios. I'm curious.

gentle lava
#

the approach to the game already changed (just play attuner..) and players will minmax every system anyways. Thats just the world we live in today

upbeat geode
#

(and respect that position, fwiw)

tame sentinel
#

For some people that's a best case scenario, mind you 😛

frank patio
#

That's fair.

gentle lava
#

All of these are happening already

#

just with the option of being able to change AL on the horizon

lucid kestrel
#

sounds like the problem is that there's a "farming class"

frank patio
#

I don't see the connection though. Has it been explained above? I'm happy to scroll up as far as needed. If not, could you please elaborate on the correlation?

tame sentinel
upbeat geode
#

nerf gs

#

solved

#

i'll see myself out now thx

upbeat geode
#

which by the way is what gilga mains do to farm endless as realm ad infinitum

#

which is also why people farm mats as casters

#

so i don't see why switching to one class to get ahead faster is a problem in and of itself

frank patio
#

Thanks Signet. I can see it now

gentle lava
#

its also what i did 15 years ago to farm resources in guildwars 1 because my class was bad at it

brazen totem
#
  • suggest Heart of Change refunds gold, orns, mats, but only 75% of each
upbeat geode
#

ew

#

sorry replied that too fast uhhhh yeah let's see the votes

brazen totem
#
  • suggest Heart of Change refunds gold, orns, mats, but only 1 of each. literally just 1
celest yacht
#

SOLD

brazen totem
#

and it's T4 now

slow basalt
#

Honestly the conversation here has moved me from slightly against the heart to just kind of neutral on the matter, maybe a bit for it for the sake of the people that do want to use it.

I see what Fuximus is saying, but it's not really +materials. You did farm those materials at one point, and someone starting from scratch can't just farm orns instead of materials and hope to accomplish much.

As a tweak to the current system that won't strongly effect many people, I think the heart is fine. If you really really want to min-max using the heart I feel like the overall gain is there but still somewhat minimal.

Considering the sheer amount of orns it costs to ascend the farming class initially I don't think the overall gain in the long run is much of a problem.

frank patio
upbeat geode
#

^ this response is why i still post walls of text each time.... hearts and minds campaign

ebon stump
#

so, here is my fundamental issue right now.

who is the heart, in its current iteration, meant to help? I know, broadly, it is meant to help with the "Bored/Claustrophic" group of players, but that group ranges from the turbo casual to the no lifer hardcore player.

us turbo nerds, while potentially annoyed by the orn grind, aren't fundamentally blocked in a meaningful way from just swapping over. Take a month to farm the orns first, and there isn't a real power loss. This group of players will reap the benefits of this system.

the casual group is either severely limited, or locked out entirely. If people don't even have a celestial class unlocked yet, and they buy a heart instead, that is more than likely a net negative to them. If they can't farm the orns back, they used a heart and are now just weaker, when they would have been better off just farming out the ascensions from 0 anyway.

brazen totem
#

if you will use it as-is, react ✅

gentle lava
#

voting for "i would use it like it is but i am happy with my class atm"

upbeat geode
#

i'd use it ... 5 times over, so runeshop price is a bit much 😛

slow basalt
upbeat geode
#

(also hate towers, so 1.5 mil tower shards is nothx territory)

ebon stump
#

but they need it the most

lucid kestrel
upbeat geode
#

heretic

ebon stump
#

like. the group of people who "literally" can't farm enough to ascend two classes at the same time, is who the heart should be targetting. Not the group that can crank out ascension 25 on any given tuesday

tame sentinel
#

Lots of people were saying that they wanted it for like asc15-30ish, which at least from my perspective is almost a waste 😅 300k tower shards is almost equal to the first 15 ALs of effort anyway.

brazen totem
steep mauve
#

Would an option to buy a heart with ortanite be something that is seen as fair. It is probably the hardest resource to gain quickly and directly ties to playtime.

tame sentinel
upbeat geode
#

definitely missed your calling as a statistician as well on top of the financial advisor path odie

gentle lava
#

i am at least a half person as i would use it in other circumstances

slow basalt
ebon stump
#

(I'd use the heart if I wasn't happy with realm)

upbeat geode
#

folks but the point isn't to tell someone new that the first 10-15 ALs don't matter

tame sentinel
#

The 300k shard cost is static but the benefit isn't. That's been touched on several times.

upbeat geode
#

when you're in that boat, you believe it matters

ebon stump
upbeat geode
#

how many times have most of us no lifers said "don't build ascension altar, it doesn't help you"

#

what do players do

#

they build ascension altar

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why? because they can

ebon stump
#

if we are introducing the heart, I'd prefer the less informed playerbase doesn't get shafted because they don't read discord for optimal farming strategies

potent frigate
#

Would completely disagree on the 15-30AL being a waste being that I'm in that demographic. <1year 247 20 Gilga, 15 Deity. It's far easier for me to farm the tower shards/orns than it is the mats

tame sentinel
#

I mean I definitely don't feel good about adding noobtraps to the game. 😬

upbeat geode
#

this is the anti noob trap

tame sentinel
#

being able to ascend Beowulf was already a bad enough noobtrap for like 2 years

upbeat geode
#

you got trapped into ascending a class you don't like

gentle lava
#

is it a noobtrap if they enjoy using it

upbeat geode
#

now you're stuck

gentle lava
#

isnt that just a game mechanic at that point

ebon stump
#

it can exist and not be a noobtrap

#

that is my point

#

if we are adding the heart, and we are more and more headed in that direction, make it noob friendly at the very least

upbeat geode
tame sentinel
#

Yeah, I'd say scaling the cost relative to the amount it refunds is like... bare minimum change.

frank patio
tame sentinel
#

"Free for all ALs" does technically meet that standard.

upbeat geode
#

❤️

near haven
#

Give everyone 1 and let the second one be optional

ebon stump
near haven
#

300k

tame sentinel
upbeat geode
#

longer term yes, but i'm happy to give that up to raise the debt ceiling

gentle lava
#

free for all with scaling costs for multiple uses if people insist it should have a cost to prevent abuse (even thou i don't see this being necessary)

tame sentinel
#

I'd actually argue that a lot of pro-respec people would probably just prefer ALs be account-wide in total and... problem solved.

upbeat geode
#

work across the aisle, etc. etc.

floral prairie
#

300k tower shards are easy though atleast for full ascension reversal

glass bear
#

somehow I feel there are better ways to help players feeling ""stuck"" than a punishing/maybe-not-punishing/possibly-exploitative refund mechanic, but that'd be a larger ascension change. I think a fundamental ascension change would be better, still

upbeat geode
gentle lava
#

Old Path of Exile just gave every player a full reset each balance patch

tame sentinel
#

PoE was/is league-based and the legacy leagues don't matter to anyone mimic

ebon stump
#

could the refund be such that each ascension refunded is worth 1% less?

Refunding ascension 1 level is 100% returns
Refunding ascension level 11 is 90% returns
...

all the way to ascension level 101 is 0% returns

gentle lava
#

leagues didnt exist at that point

glass bear
#

Releasing this prior to potential ascension changes also feels a bit like a trap. Yes, it's player choice for the balance patch, but if the entire mechanic is subject to change shortly/immediately after then regret is very possible. It's basically giving a chunk of players the choice to make a (potential!) mistake

brazen totem
#

what part is a mistake?

glass bear
#

If ascension were to be fundamentally changed in ways that:

  • changes their decision, wouldn't have refunded with the changes, OR
  • ascension refunds in totality added

If either of those cases happen, then players would have wasted whatever cost is associated with HoC (curr. gold/orns, but may change)

ebon stump
#

refunding, losing your orns, and then having a full 100% refunded come out for everybody else

#

^ is a trap

brazen totem
#

right - so what we covered above

upbeat geode
#

odie is it worthwhile to add a suggestion re: make acquiring the item heart of change actually free / nominally free and not 300k shards? but keep the "you lose orns/gold" part of using?

brazen totem
#

reminder: an ascension rework would most likely include 100% refund

if a player wants to refund now, and understands the orn loss (which we've already determined would only take 3 minutes of endless)

is there really an issue?

upbeat geode
#

damn also a great commentator for cable news

#

really missed so many career paths

ebon stump
#

depends

does the full refund give them back the orns they just decided to lose?

glass bear
#

Isn't this the same point often made for not offering refunds for player investment, though?

"If players understand <mechanic> with its associated <losses> and are okay with that, is there an issue?"

It feels super similar

tame sentinel
#

(3 minutes is only a slight exaggeration, nowadays. Like, haha, but also haha but serious.)

upbeat geode
#

haha fux just made that in between this message and the previous...

gentle lava
#

I can see a problem with "i just paid $15 for this last week and now i get a better refund for free"

ebon stump
#

Also, what Major said

glass bear
#

It very much seems like being okay with players potentially making a mistake, which I suppose is fine.. but this feels rushed given ascension changes are (as far as I know) on the horizon. I'm certain if complete refunds were added, then players would be unhappy with having used HoC in the interim

brazen totem
#

i think that's on us to communicate to the public, and shouldn't be a concern here

tame sentinel
#

Like, clearly orns are (way) easier than materials.

See how many people would take an Inverse Heart that refunds all orns and eats all materials.

formal magnet
#

I'd still just rather ascensions be modified into investible alternate advancement points. Much more character customization seems better that "Just boost me"

upbeat geode
#

i see ascensions as an extension of my character's level. asc 50 after 250 = level 300. if i can swap class why not swap ascensions?

ebon stump
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especially those that aren't ultra active on discord/reddit

alpine pine
brazen totem
#

yes, but we can't use that as a deterrent. if we did, most large changes would not be possible

ebon stump
#

absolutely. But then just have the heart go live with the other ascension changes so the noobs don't get the short end of the refund stick

alpine pine
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I agree. But I think a large part of the casual player base are going to see a new button and want to push it

upbeat geode
#

or make heart free

#

so they don't get the short end of the refund stick

ebon stump
#

or that I guess

brazen totem
#

ascension rework as a whole will need plenty of comms. should we avoid it due to that? should it prevent us from making the best call?

glass bear
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People are going to make the mistake, and be angry about it.

It's that and me not seeing the need to add this mechanic with this patch, rather than a few months-ish out with the ascension changes. Ascension has existed for years now, what's a few more months so that players can make decisions with the full picture

upbeat geode
#

mmm yeah that's my current POV now. heart should be free to acquire, with the cost on use as the orns/gold you lose

glass bear
formal magnet
alpine pine
ebon stump
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If I am going to argue on behalf of the little guy, which is my current PoV, then the best call is to release the heart in the way that is best for them. Such that they don't need to come to discord and ask around so that they don't get shafted

glass bear
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I think I'm focusing on the player emotion part too much. Really I mean the difference in effect, but that'll be shown as player emotion in feedback

#

clearing that up ^

upbeat geode
#

aka free to obtain right bwubble

alpine pine
#

Emotions are important

#

We like to think we make decisions rationally, but emotions play a huge role as well

#

Also, how many Orns is this convo costing?

tame sentinel
#

Emotionally, I dislike respecs/refunds even more than I dislike them rationally.

ebon stump
#

I also think that sending it out right after a balance patch is creating an isntance where a bunch of people are going to go after the heart because they want the cool new thing, before the cool new thing has even settled in.

I see a lot of people refunding to play with avidity (because it is awesome) and then either regretting that decision, or being mad that they didn't wait 6 weeks to get a full refund anyway

glass bear
#

Releasing this now just feels rushed, and it offers a way for players to make a substantial change to their ascensions when ascensions in general are likely going to be changed, potentially in ways that will completely flip their decision-making, or will offer ways to do what HoC does/aims to do except with less friction

upbeat geode
#

which again, if heart is free, they can try avidity, and if they don't like it, farm orns to go back to whatever else

tame sentinel
silent sandal
upbeat geode
#

which i argue is the GOOD thing to do

#

if the studio is launching cool new mechanics

#

why not let people try as much as they want

glass bear
silent sandal
upbeat geode
#

avidity is new, some gilga wants to try it out, but the thing holding the gilga back is their asc in gigla. maybe they don't have the best gear for realm but if they can put 30 asc in realm avidity works better

ebon stump
upbeat geode
#

who are we to preven them from trying it out?

tame sentinel
formal magnet
silent sandal
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Simply put, if you don't like HoC dont use it. What'd the problem with that?

upbeat geode
#

there are thresholds tho as we all know 🙂

tame sentinel
upbeat geode
#

trying vs. trying effectively is very different

glass bear
silent sandal
#

As your arguments have

#

And here we are

tame sentinel
#

You can stop repeating your one argument at any time 🙏

silent sandal
upbeat geode
tame sentinel
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Though I am thankful at least that I'm not being accused of being a hater for no reason. A welcome change from the start of this thread.

glass bear
#

okay. anyways.

if ascensions are a requirement for players to try new classes/new changes, then potentially there's an issue there? If enjoyment is strictly tied to the ascension system, then I think that's the larger issue

upbeat geode
#

heart hater

#

yeah you, fux. heartless ❤️

ebon stump
#

Without calling anybody out.

I saw an individual with more playtime than I have (by several days) that is stuck below ascension 20.

I hesitate to call anybody "bad", but there is a group of people that do not play efficiently at all. And that is fine, they should play how they like. But they exist, and I'm arguing on their behalf

glass bear
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I'm fairly confused as to why offer a partial/punishing refund if it's known that a refund in totality is on the table in the near future. idk, that doesn't sit right with me

upbeat geode
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time value of money

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it's how CDs work too

alpine pine
upbeat geode
#

get it now, pay more price

#

get it later, pay less

ebon stump
alpine pine
upbeat geode
#

danno you also do not have more playtime than bwubble 😛

#

i can guarantee that

alpine pine
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Im feeling so much better now

glass bear
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I suppose, if we're treating ascensions like an investment for gain, it makes sense

ebon stump
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I'm at 68 days of playtime, for reference

upbeat geode
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no gain, it doesn't pay you interest

#

just.. fungible.

#

you can move it around

#

and retains value

#

only for character development, not for gear

tame sentinel
#

yup, that's definitely a change from what it is now.

upbeat geode
#

it still loses value, because you lose orns

#

so, there's an implicit orn to mat trade going on

#

that's RNG based, because depends on what you rolled for asc mats

ebon stump
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new idea:

Heart of Change uses are tracked in player record. Fux and I can point and laugh at the casuals with dozens of heart uses

mighty_mimic

upbeat geode
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so some people will have "pricey cort" others will have "cheap cort"

upbeat geode
#

take my $75

ebon stump
#

I should buy Odie a coffee, he probably needs it after dealing with us degenerates arguing in Discord

formal magnet
#

Up country degens

upbeat geode
#

or a heart

brazen totem
#

I'm going to give this thread a rest for a bit - thanks for the convo.

Before i go, i just want to reiterate:

  • There are players unhappy with where they are. You may not know them - we do
  • A change like this gives them room to enjoy the game again
  • They may not necessarily disagree with the current ascension system as much as you may

Is it fair to deny them this choice right now because ascension may or may not change in the short or distant future? It's their choice, no? What if ascension didn't change?

This is not a rushed change, nor something we see abusable (at least, not under normal player investment circumstances).

With the thought of ascension changes out of the picture. is it okay with you if another player recommits to another class?

upbeat geode
#

tl/dr odie called fux not normal

tame sentinel
#

yes 😔

upbeat geode
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that was clearly targeted

alpine pine
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Thanks Odie 🙏 (for the dialogue, I should hasten to clarify)

glass bear
#

the more and more this is discussed, the more I feel as though HoC's justifications are core ascension issues, and ones that'll continue to crop up. Stuff like..:

  • ascensions are a requirement for enjoyable gameplay / ascension 0/low ascension is unfun, or
  • an orns to materials trade is preferable/desired, because certain materials are overly painful/unfun relative to other mats, or even to orns

If the ascension system isn't fun to do, or ascensions are required for classes to be fun, then those seem like much bigger issues worth fixing, and HoC becomes not "needed", less egregious with meta-investment, and enables future ascension changes with less friction

#

under that lens I still can't quite call HoC a "bandaid fix", but it is much closer to one than I think a mechanic like it should be

upbeat geode
#

being perfectly honest, if i can swap ascensions whenever i want to without cost, i see nothing immediately wrong with the current ascension system. yes we need another more engaging end-game loop, but that's a diff topic

glass bear
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and I'd personally disagree with that, but that is a different topic -- ascension system itself

upbeat geode
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yeah it's not ideal

#

but like... i'd rage less

glass bear
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undoubtedly

upbeat geode
#

so this makes it bearable, with no definitive eta for "new"

#

i'd gladly take it

glass bear
#

if i can swap ascensions whenever i want to without cost, i see nothing immediately wrong with the current ascension system
but this furthers my point of "HoC's justifications are core ascension issues", as far as I can tell

steep mauve
#

I do wonder if the HoC changes the seed of AL progression. For example if you were hit with your 4 court block in a row, used a HoC for the same class just to overcome the court block? Getting the XX billion orns for this might be a more fun grind then getting the 5k court. And could lead to unintended abuse.

upbeat geode
alpine pine
#

I imagine it would change the seeding.

tame sentinel
#

I don't think HoC helps all the people it should help, I think it variously helps and hurts people it shouldn't interact with at all, I think it definitely changes the tenor of the game (for better or worse depending on the player), and I'm definitely worried that it will be a pressure valve to release energy better channeled toward fixing ascension itself.

Increasingly I think it's going to go ahead roughly as it is now, though, and once that happens, it's not going back. So... some of this thread is just an exercise in "prepare to watch it happen" like we all got to do with 1shot aoe and other big fundamental game shifts.

steep mauve
upbeat geode
#

correct

#

it's what odie called "not normal"

ebon stump
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I'd farm 3 billion orns before I farmed 5k ancient stone again, no questions asked

upbeat geode
#

ahem aka some people we know 😛

#

there's one ^ bwubble

#

but would you farm 20B orns

#

because you may be blocked on something else

ebon stump
#

no, I'd farm ancient stone and dungeon keys so that when I get it a second time, I have the keys needed for 20B orns lol

acoustic sky
#

I'd rather eat live ants than farm ancient stone.

glass bear
#

me upgrading serpentslayer legwear =/

upbeat geode
#

excellent source of protein

acoustic sky
#

True, at least I'd be hitting my macros.

warm prawn
#

imagine the sheer amount of cort abyss would get back if he did this

slim kindle
#

Lmao

vocal sentinel
# tame sentinel I don't think HoC helps all the people it should help, I think it variously help...

Increasingly I think it's going to go ahead roughly as it is now, though, and once that happens, it's not going back. So... some of this thread is just an exercise in "prepare to watch it happen" like we all got to do with 1shot aoe and other big fundamental game shifts.

I kinda get that vibe sometimes with certain things in this game. Stuff where NF will say "we think this is fine/we don't foresee the problems being proposed" even though you have dozens of people saying the exact issues they foresee coming up.
But because it's taken from a context of "we think this is fine as is but we'll take your feedback into account" and not "we have not entirely finalized the details of the proposed addition and would like feedback before we do" it kinda skews the way stuff is added... into more of a "we like our current implementation and will fix it later if need be" manner of thinking

#

NF is usually pretty good with this sort of thing. Occasionally however I get the vibe I suggested above

brazen totem
#

Challenging your challenges should be seen as nothing more than debate. If our minds were made up, there wouldn't be threads open for this - simply put

late hemlock
#

I believe in HoC can call some old player back, and earn time to rework the ascension system while active player might feel boring with fixed in one classes.
HoC is a compensation IMO

vocal sentinel
#

To Odie, I understand. It's mostly me and my interpretation of the wording in certain messages/responses given to other people by NF and the people that speak for it

#

Perhaps it's simply me taking some words at face value when they may not have been intended as such

pastel wharf
#

My opinion and just an opinion. I really enjoy the slight cut throatedness that Orna provides, it makes you learn from your choices for better or for worse. I feel that the path to hell is paved with good intentions, the road to hell in this case being a get out of jail card for every situation.

#

Everything good is on the other side of suffering

small raptor
#

For those who missed them, there were a series of suggestions submitted by Odie. Can see them from here onward:

#💡│suggestions message

nocturne vessel
barren anvil
#

I wish there were some orns refunded even 50%. Get your mats back but not orns is kinda rough.

brazen totem
#

There's a suggestion for full refunds 🙂

barren anvil
#

I didn't scroll far enough found it! Thanks for asking for suggestions!

astral minnow
#

Seems like full refunds are in the lead

#

At that point will NFS just hold off and await a big AL change?

formal magnet
#

I find that surprising

gentle lava
#

i dont - people like having the option to hit the big red reset button if they dont enjoy themselves anymore

tame sentinel
#

Is there an ETA/timeline for what NF is going to do about HoC?

Is the goal to tie it into the balance patch and release both at the same time -- or are the two things separated?
Has the community response changed any plans?

brazen totem
#

no concrete plans. as announced, we just wanted to toss it in beta for feedback

slim kindle
#

We only need a "reroll" button who make the Asc 20% more costly but no cort anymore 😭

storm matrix
#

The materials needed for each level are determined by an algorithm.
If the algorithm is fair, it shouldn't reroll

formal magnet
gentle lava
#

no

formal magnet
#

So why not?

#

I really am curious

gentle lava
#

i ain't a dev but my explanation would be: celestial classes dont lock you out of other classes - they even make them better through skill unlocks. Weapons are similar, they can be used by a multitude of classes. Another reason could be time investment, a weapon takes like 5ish 50f towers, so like 10h at most, while something like 20 AL takes much much more time than that

formal magnet
#

So you draw the line based on time investment?

gentle lava
#

as for augments - you can just swap them

#

i wouldnt draw that line between 20 and 25 hours

#

but between 20 and multiple hundred hours

tame sentinel
#

ascending class X doesn't lock you out of class Y.

formal magnet
#

I may not agree but I can see your argument

gentle lava
#

it does not in practice, but playing a AL0 instead of a AL40 class will feel like shit

#

thats like having 2 max level classes in a mmo and you go raiding with your buddies, one of your classes has really good gear and the other has super bad gear - one of them will be much more fun than the other

#

(again, thats just my opinion)

formal magnet
#

Personally I don't view ascension as a time investment

slim kindle
formal magnet
#

It's just something that comes as I played the normal content I would have done anyway. But with alts being the primary way to ascend, I can see how that would be different for others who didn't play that way before

slim kindle
#

Getting 3 cort in a row

storm matrix
slim kindle
#

Odiiiie

storm matrix
#

👀

slim kindle
#

The algorithm want to kill me, why

astral minnow
#

Random = Fair

tame sentinel
astral minnow
#

Pure randomness = fair *

#

-suggest HoC refunds AL levels, but randomly chooses one of three to return in full (gold, orns, or mats) mimic mighty_mimic

#

Or maybe none

#

25% chance lol

slim kindle
#

Let's go x)