Impact of Augment Adjustments(Was needed) for towers on Crit Classes

[tough talon]

I agree that nerf or adjustment to the Prometheus Hands was required. Though I don't agree with the nerf to the Crit Chance too. I think it was a bit harsh.

But the issue here the speed at which the classes can complete these towers after these changes.

Gilga: They will steam roll the towers as they have been doing before
Beo : Not much difference to them with stat boost and the augment change.
Heretic: They will be just as fast as before with Ara Vesta 2, but may slow down on later floors but by not much.
GS : I think we all know they got a buff to PvE so it's clear.
Deity : ? What are they really? If they go with Gilga or Heretic build they can be fast just as not that fast
Realm: They will become even slower. Before it took 1hr+ to do all the guardians after floor 15. Now it will take more time.

So towers will become even much longer and more annoying for some.

[dim rivet]

Reducing crit damage, but keep a high crit chance seemed like the right approach to me.
As is, the damage is still mostly there, but getting the extra crit chance will be a pain.

[slow hull]

Absolutely how I feel too

Like someone else mentioned in another thread, I could do without the crit bonus all together and be fine. But getting my damage reduced and being forced to slot Ashens is a bit too much of a combo

[runic hawk]

I would hope for a middle-ground nerf. Reduce the damage, keep the chance or at least a 10% one per adorn

[slow hull]

For sure

Take the hand, not the whole arm

[rough zinc]

Not sure where to start with this post. 😅

There were other changes in the patch besides prom hands nerf.
There were prior differences between classes before towers existed.
There were people using crit happily before towers existed.

Yeah idk.

A celestial weapon full of prom hands are still better than whatever other weapon you would use, right? Or is that not the case now.

[tough talon]

It's about speed or the amount of time it takes to clear a flloor

RS needed one turn to kill one mob

Now it will need two

The time will increase by 50%

And before we just went with ymir

[undone sigil]

this seems to be a common thought. that being the crit augment nerf was too harsh. am I in the minority that things this is a fine adjustment..?

the changes to (specific prometheus hands) are:
1.2x -> 1.1x crit damage
12 -> 6 crit chance
45 att
-90 res

This is still the ~best damage augment in the game. Slapping 5 (or 6) augments yields 30/36 crit chance. that's the same as 7.5/9 4% crit adorns (eg. ferocious) and it gives a damage multiplier. it's got a relatively minor res penalty, but that's the only downside. Keeping all of that in mind... I can't possibly think that these augments are weak, especially not relative to all the other augments that exist

[tough talon]

Didn't need to use pinions and lose stats

[tough talon]

It's about speed and not damage

[undone sigil]

It seems wrong that one weapon, especially one that >doubled your crit damage, gave you max crit on virtually any skill/spell

[undone sigil]

well, "speed" encompasses more than the augments, no? if problems are class-specific then the solution would lie in that class, not universal augments

[tough talon]

Yeah.

[undone sigil]

so then.. i'm confused at your reply to me

[tough talon]

But it was augments which brought this issue back again

Well I will edit the post

[slow hull]

No one is arguing the damage aspect of it didn't need a nerf, but being forced to slot APs to reach the same crit % you had with a feathers or a labrys feels backwards

[tough talon]

And make it more about adjustment to the class

[undone sigil]

why is it backwards? feathers or labrys don't grant a large damage multiplier

[slow hull]

It's substantially less crit when you kit out a two hander celestial

[undone sigil]

yes, they have more base stats, but not enough to match/exceed 1.61x/1.77x

yes, it is, and it also grants substantially more crit damage than a 2H non-celestial

[slow hull]

When it crits

[undone sigil]

okay..?

[slow hull]

Which is more of a concern now

So, to get to that point I have to reduce my stats with pinions

[undone sigil]

you need to build into crit chance if you're using crit damage augments, rather than having both at the same time with little thought/effort

this seems perfectly fine 😅

[dim rivet]

We dont need so much crit damage.

[undone sigil]

If you want to build damage, you have tradeoffs elsewhere. This is universally true -- augments do not and should not sidestep that rule

[undone sigil]

then don't use a celestial weapon when you don't need as many, or use other augments

there are many ways to build

[dim rivet]

Or leave a high crit chance and just lessen the crit damage.

[undone sigil]

prometheus hands were a one size fits all and surpassed all other options for crit damage and chance prior to this patch. that's poster child levels of overpowered

[slow hull]

And there are ways to address hands issue that doesn't feel so punitive

[runic hawk]

I think the other augments should get buffed instead

I mean, the dmg nerf of hands yes ofc

[undone sigil]

what's punitive about the change? a piece of content is overtuned, so it got tuned to better match the majority of the game. it should be understood that investing into things, especially things that are blatantly overpowered, will likely ""backfire"" later. quotation marks since anyone who used 'em prior to the changes would have still benefitted

[slow hull]

The pendulum swung too far the other way

And besides, what other options did crit builds have as far as adornments go?

[undone sigil]

power creeping the game even further is not the solution. this patch aims to reduce power creep. players have gotten buffed and buffed and buffed, so much so that no challenge exists in the game. if other augments were to be buffed to prom hand levels then celestial weaponry would outshadow everything else

[undone sigil]

adorns, or augments? either way, this would be the time to suggest changes/additions to fill niches that don't exist. what i'm gathering here is some folks want a crit chance augment instead of a crit damage augment

[runic hawk]

I dont get the extreme fear of power creeping... This is a grindy mobile game that should be about getting able to grind faster as you progress

[undone sigil]

that seems perfectly fine to suggest. i'm sure there's an underperforming augment that could be buffed to reasonable levels of crit chance

[slow hull]

Yes

That's what we've all been saying

We don't care about the damage bonus, we care about the crit chance

[runic hawk]

But i repeat, the dmg nerf was needed

No doubt about it

[undone sigil]

Ideally when creating an RPG that isn't solely made for power fantasy (and even if it is), you want the content your team spent hours/days/months/years on to still be relevant. One would hope there are many things in the game worth doing rather than just the latest addition

[slow hull]

And again, I don't think you'd find anyone who would disagree with that

[runic hawk]

Which is the case thankfully

[undone sigil]

no, not exactly. i've seen two folks mention they'd prefer crit chance, but beyond that the conversation has simply been that both chance and damage should coexist on the same augment like it did before

[undone sigil]

not if they were to follow through with common suggestions to simply buff everything else rather than nerfing outliers

[dim rivet]

Naw, split the augment. 1 for crit chance, 1 for damage. Now everyone can be happy.

[undone sigil]

i mean, that's what's been happening over the years and the vast majority of the game poses zero challenge and has nothing worthwhile to chase

[runic hawk]

Ive never enjoyed orna more than these two months. Plenty of stuff to chase, the grind exists

[undone sigil]

sure, it'd be good to propose a solution then. another augment to modify, or a communal stat list for new augment(s)

[undone sigil]

yeah and ironically the past few months (other than this beta patch) has powercrept items of similar caliber before it

If overpowered augments were the only thing keeping Tower times reasonable, then Tower times should be adjusted 😅

[runic hawk]

I cannot disagree :p

[undone sigil]

I don't think that's true, but if it is the case, then the thing to change is the root of the problem rather than expecting all players to do/use the same thing for baseline time investment

[spice flower]

imo, 50% reduction in any stat seems to always feel harsh - even when it's still very relevant

[hot nest]

Imagine that the prom hands didn't have an att boost, they'd still be good. Using an ashen, the prom hand still nets an att boost

[spice flower]

It just shows how high the value was when a 50% reduction still leaves it the best

[undone sigil]

I agree it can feel harsh, but that feeling is largely because it was released too hot and folks have gotten used to it at this point. it's still the augment post-change, so that says a lot about it

idk, i'm not unfamiliar with feeling weaker after a patch, but I prefer healthy games with variety in 'em, even if it means I need to spend some time rethinking and adjusting my build(s)

[hot nest]

Realm's ability to clear horde content is a very different issue than the augment

[undone sigil]

yeah, that's also a whole separate thing. discussion's happening over in #1097566876395118632 about 'em

[slow hull]

It feels even more harsh when you reduce a stat by 50% - and reduce the bonus as well

[undone sigil]

well, it's a 50% reduction in the item overall. it's not more than 50%

arguably less than 50% (though not by much)

[slow hull]

Except the -res

[hot nest]

Is res really relevant for most content because gunnr?

[undone sigil]

yes, the majority of its power comes from the crit chance and crit damage

the +att/-res are relatively minor effects. i wouldn't have been surprised at negatives to att and mag for crit bonuses that good

[rough zinc]

hordes are available from, like, T7 (around when people start getting into them, and the first aoe specs).

if it takes a T10 class, or celestial T10 class, and a celestial weapon with the best augments possible to be "good at horde" for thief -- then that's clearly not a problem with one class, celestial class, or weapon or its augments. 🤷‍♂️ but hey, there's this avidity thing...

anyway. this thread seems ill-formed. If we can see some relevant data about how tower clear times increased for realm more than the others and realm is the absolute worst at towers, then that might be something worth talking about. I don't think the augments are in a bad place in any case.

[undone sigil]

I think the changes to the overperforming augments are a step in the right direction, but I do wish the underperfoming ones got improved to match some sort of middle ground. whatever's an acceptable baseline

[floral linden]

I feel like the bonus damage nerf was not harsh enough ; and the crit chance was too harsh. It -very- badly needed a nerf. I think the bonus portion could go for more of a nerf or even be removed, but I do think halving the crit chance on a low adorn slot weapon was a bit too much.

[undone sigil]

definitely shouldn't be buffed to pre-patch prom hands, but some of 'em need some help

"halving" is a specific way to look at it. yeah, that's the relative change, but even still it's 30% on one item. that's.. pretty high 😅

you don't see that number on items other than specific event items

[hot nest]

I can see that point for the 2h weapons, but I think the crit chance is fine on the 1h's

[modern marten]

Anyone thinking this nerf is going to get reverted is smoking major copium

[undone sigil]

I was surprised 2Hs got another slot rather than other changes (eg. to base stats, offhand skill)

augment slots are hella potent

[modern marten]

Prom hands are still by far and away the outright best titan adorn in most scenarios

[floral linden]

Hmm, maybe 2h not being up to snuff is part of the problem. I prefer 2h weapons but they're basically just doing worse on purpose compared to my usual builds.

[undone sigil]

I don't see how prom hands could be justifiably re-buffed in any way if it's still the best titan augment, and seemingly by quite the margin

[hot nest]

I get what people were saying in the other thread about 2h celestial weapons being a compromise

[slow hull]

As someone suggested above, I think the better and more elegant solution is to just split the augment

[modern marten]

Unique offhand skills for all celestial 2H could be a fun thing to play with

[hot nest]

Looking at stats may be a good start

I like looking at offhand skills as well

[spice flower]

imo, splitting the augment is even harsher. Slots are limited

[slow hull]

As a two hander user, I don't see how it could be more harsh than what we already have

[modern marten]

Splitting the augment would just change it so that instead of all prom hands you'd just go half prom hands half of whatever gets the other part

[dim rivet]

Its all about choice. I want crit chance, not crit damage. The crit damage on these adorns is nerfing my crit chance.

[modern marten]

You're just doubling the number of items to farm rather than meaningfully impacting anything

[spice flower]

I'd suggest these can be added to other augments then - the lesser used ones

[slow hull]

I mean, that's more or less splitting it

[hot nest]

100% crit chance should not be trivial using a 5 slot weapon that doesn't require any real RNG to get

[modern marten]

Odie please no

[floral linden]

You can already get pretty ridiculous numbers without the crit bonus damage. I really wish it was lower, or removed, with the crit chance being hit more gently. Or different/tweaked/better alternative adorns

[modern marten]

Crit is already too much of a focal building point

We dont need even more options pushing Crit as the only viable path

[floral linden]

I'd love to see more mag focused builds, without the crit

[spice flower]

The values as-is are too high. Even with a split, we'd want to take them down a notch. In a split world, you're using all slots on an uneven split, probably leading to a 50% reduction anyway

[radiant fox]

great job

[spice flower]

With conservative values, in case that wasn't safely assumed

[undone sigil]

i kind of agree. augments do lack options to build crit chance primarily, so it would only make sense that a major part of the game offers that option. celestial weapons are meant to be highly customizable, but that can't happen if the options aren't there

crit is all-consuming and outpaces non-crit skills with very few exceptions (eg. SS), but that's a separate topic/issue imo

[dim rivet]

Because of crit damage. So nerf the crit damage.

[undone sigil]

yes, many people have been suggesting that for a while now, and many people have been opposed to doing that. crit multipliers from titan augments are not the single problem-child regarding crit outpacing everything else by a lot

[spice flower]

Fairly certain this thread has had both opinions now? Chance vs damage?

[undone sigil]

regarding the augment specifically, yeah

my statement there was more general

[slow hull]

Not really. The overwhelming majority of us pro-handers were okay with the damage nerf.

[spice flower]

Was responded to the comment above

[runic hawk]

Perhaps a bit harsher nerf on dmg but a bit more chance per augment?

[undone sigil]

what's a bit harsher, and what's a bit more chance?

there's not too much room to play with, they're both small values

10% and 6% respectively atm

small-ish

[runic hawk]

I was thinking 1.05 % dmg (currently 1.1 right?) and 8% chance

[undone sigil]

if the goal is better ways to obtain crit chance through augments then it should probably be a separate augment than prometheus hands

[spice flower]

Easy way to approach it:

What's the highest crit chance we've seen on a single non-celestial weapon?

[runic hawk]

Forgive my incorrect numbers if i got it wrong

[undone sigil]

that'd be 40

10 slots on a kalamari/imagination

[misty dune]

10 but ok

[floral linden]

My 2h arisen mammon weapon has 56% crit

14 x 4%

[undone sigil]

yeah, 10. overestimated godforge point

[slow hull]

Yeah, my OAL has 14 slots

[misty dune]

1h to 1h plz

[runic hawk]

World eater has 12 slots

1 handed

[slow hull]

I'm too Ursa for that

[misty dune]

48 it is

[undone sigil]

right, fair enough

thanks for the correction

48 is so high lol

[spice flower]

Okay, let's use 40 as the baseline, 1H weapon

We don't want celestials to completely outclass base content.

So, 40, or just under, should be the target

That leaves a range of 6-8 crit chance bonus per augment

[runic hawk]

8% 👀

[spice flower]

However, the damage bonus does make up for chance imo

[runic hawk]

And perhaps the slight reduced damage?

[misty dune]

Why are people so allergic to ashen pinions

[slow hull]

Now do 2h

[runic hawk]

They sting!

[undone sigil]

prom hands are probably still too strong at 30% crit, 225 att (quality scaling) and 1.61x crit damage lol. prom hands should not be getting any buffs

[runic hawk]

Perhaps 7% crit chance and the current dmg nerf

[undone sigil]

but without pushing for a harsher nerf atm, i'd say another augment should be made the crit chance one

[runic hawk]

35% cchance seems fair

[spice flower]

This exercise on 2H would probably lead to it needing more than 1 slot...but that has other implications

[runic hawk]

And ashens will still be needed

[floral linden]

another augment wouldn't be a terrible idea at all. Some of them are kind of 'generic' or just clearly overshadowed by similar ones

[undone sigil]

i think a buff to this would be frankly absurd. even more absurd when looking at other augments that were adjusted

[runic hawk]

Perhaps an inbuilt crit chance for the 2h?

[undone sigil]

2Hers could use a unique skill and better base stats

[runic hawk]

Im not a 2h user so take my opinions with a grain of salt

[spice flower]

One of them does have that, no? Scythe?

I can't recall

[undone sigil]

base crit on items are super unexplored/undertuned

scythe has 6 crit, archi has 4

which is.. not much 😅

[runic hawk]

I think so yes, unsure if others have it though

[spice flower]

Yeah, that could come up

[undone sigil]

base crit on items are not at all significant. crit is almost exclusively obtained through adornments and augments

[hot nest]

Thinblade has 4 as well

[undone sigil]

this is universally true 😅

[runic hawk]

The lute could need some cute crit chance too 👀

[misty dune]

Nice job ursas

[undone sigil]

the lute doesn't need improvements 😅

[misty dune]

Job done let’s go home

[runic hawk]

Shh

[undone sigil]

Scythe and Thinblade need buffs pretty badly

[runic hawk]

😛

[undone sigil]

esp. thinblade

thinblade is painfully mediocre

[misty dune]

It’s thin

[spice flower]

How about just cute chance

Cute: +12%

[sharp vigil]

I'm curious why 2 of the classes that have innate crit bonus damage would need more crit damage? Are they not doing enough damage?

[spice flower]

Balance achieved

[runic hawk]

Gah! Would that make me lull arisen morrigans?

[floral linden]

Instead of focusing on just crit, at least for magic, it would be nice if there were some other things to gravitate towards. There are a couple of 'meh'/overshadowed celestial adorns that could be reworked into something interesting.

[runic hawk]

If yes, im in

[misty dune]

Ya that’s not a bad shout… keep prom hands where they are then separately have a crit chance augment (with no dmg), and then a crit dmg augment (with no chance)

[modern marten]

I don't think this is a good idea. Unless those adorns are significantly better as a full set on their own than a full set of prom hands is, no one will slot those over prom hands UNLESS they've not got any prom hands to slot. You've just diluted the drop pool with more things no one wants.

[misty dune]

Let’s not pretend all adorns are useful today tho

[visual solar]

I just don't see the appeal of celestial weapons without great adornments. 1200 base att/mag is nothing to write home about. There are existing weapons that can get 50%+ crit with better stats (Finesse greatsword, YBF, YWE...)

Have we discussed a possibility of keeping these adorns as they are but adjusting rarity? What if only ornate shoulders had 12%, legendary 10, etc.?

[misty dune]

Celestial are way more accessible tho

[visual solar]

In common rarities, yes. But in about 100 titan kills I've gotten two ornate drops and neither is one of the "OP" adorns

[modern marten]

True, but that's a discussion for a different thread

[cunning charm]

I don't have a strong opinion on where the augments land, but regarding ashens, I think the issue lies with how negative ashens are relative to every other crit source in the game.

They aren't really that bad if it only takes 2 or 3 to hit 100%, but they feel exponentially worse than just not using them, or making weird gear choices to avoid them

-40 to a stat compared to ferocious eyes with 60 mana and 12 attack is a really big swing.

Prom hands took that and ran an extra mile with it

[eternal timber]

Umm. The beta is out. Shouldn’t speculation stop now and you guys should start actually trying it out?

Instead of trying to guess which class is going to slow down, speed up or stay the same?

Pretty sure someone will read that and instantly assume realm is 1 hour slower in towers and won’t even try the beta

[deft pier]

Once mirror is done, that's the plan

[eternal timber]

Ofc. That’s what I’m waiting on. Hopefully. But also why I haven’t been saying much. I’m actually gonna put hands on

[deft pier]

Kind of the same aside from stuff that I relay from kingdom mates

My own build doesn't have much to test right now and the stuff I have tested overall feels fine. BP still hits like a truck, I damage capped with BP3 without event gear, hydrus is fine without crit now

[eternal timber]

All these giant reactions with the product right in front of you for testing

[eternal timber]

On the beta?

[deft pier]

Mhm

[eternal timber]

Yeah. That’s one of the things I feel could be a problem.

[deft pier]

I agree, but there's more skills/changes to celestials on the way over the course of this week

I'm holding back my total thoughts until everything's on the table

Overall, the crit changes are fine and celestial weapons feel more inline with everything else. There's definitely some more viable options now, may not be the best options, but at least it's not a massive jump going from regular weapon to celestial weapon

And thus my two coppers and why I agree w/ OP

[mossy sage]

Titan Forge pls like God Forge
Adding 1 slot for 1H and 2 slot for 2H maybe

[mossy sage]

All stat reduction
Except only Def n Res reduction
Maybe consider to used

[wispy quartz]

There's no way I'd justify this request, but can the crit be changed from 6 to 7? It would solve many problems. (Prom hands)

[tough talon]

A. Fey Badb or A Fey Crowsong have almost 2k attack without adorns, with 8 fero, that's 32% crit chance bonus, that's also 55% more bonus to attack compared to celestial weapon so more penetration. While the attack stat for Celestial 1 h is 1200 something with 30% crit chance.

And with using ashen pinions to get that 100% when dual wielding we lose more attack so we lose more penetration.

The extra damage bonus from augments is 66%. Which when compared to A.morri gear is just equal. But it will be worse when the raids have high def/res or in towers.

The only real difference will be that one is easily available compared to the other

[undone sigil]

no, the celestials have much higher relative damage

att/mag is additive with other att/mag sources meanwhile celestial's damage multipliers are multiplicative with everything

[tough talon]

We can only test it in Beta if that's the case

[undone sigil]

...no, this is how multiplying things work 😅

[tough talon]

Because more Att/mag means more penetration too

Especially when the M1 value of skill is 1

[undone sigil]

yeah. my point is saying 55% as a comparison of the att/mag on weapons is not a very robust data point

that number only holds up if you have zero other sources of att/mag

[tough talon]

But buffs are also multiplicative right?

[undone sigil]

it's far less than 55%. Realm alone has almost 1900 attack, making the %difference in ending attack much lower

[tough talon]

I get this

[undone sigil]

okay

but yes, morrigan weapons are higher piercing if you need that

players have long outscaled enemy defences, though

[tough talon]

Towers have brought more high def/res mobs back again

[edgy crane]

Just giving my 2 cents on the initial message that the GS buffs likely won't affect towers at all

[rigid gale]

it may be the best, but it removed all convenience and forces people to severely change their builds just to stay relevant. Especially with the way pinions work, it is not only a direct and severe nerf to damage but also sustain and defenses.

[rigid gale]

for that, you sacrificed a lot of other aspects that could be vital like ward reg, pet act rate etc.
So it wasnt an allaround win which balanced it out.

[undone sigil]

but it removed all convenience
In my eyes, building and using the maximum damage stuff should not be convenient, comfortable or sturdy. There has to be tradeoffs, otherwise what's the point of all this different stuff

forces people to severely change their builds just to stay relevant
well, yes and no. no, you don't need to severely change your build to stay relevant, but it will be weaker than it used to be, but still stronger than most things. yes, you may want to change your build, but that's to be expected with balance changes. there is an expectation and understanding that overtuned/overperforming aspects of the game could/will be balanced

Especially with the way pinions work, it is not only a direct and severe nerf to damage but also sustain and defenses.
yes, because gaining crit chance should not be an easy thing to do. ashens were one of the first crit sources in the game, and back then building crit had tradeoffs (as it should) . ashens have been powercrept indirectly in that augments/adornments not directly competing with them (read: not armour adorns) are much more forgiving to obtain crit chance with.

separately, sure, I agree that it's a direct nerf to sustain and defenses but that seems correct when you're building into the highest damage build in the game -- critical hits.

[edgy crane]

tfw you complain that the nerf nerfed you

[modern marten]

In other news, water is wet. More at 11.

[edgy crane]

I mean basically the only arguement most people have for the nerf being unjustified is "you aren't respecting player investment"

But if the player invested in the class regardless of its power(they like the concept), they wouldn't mind, and if they invested in the class because it was overperforming then it is justified that it gets nerfed

[modern marten]

That's the thing though

Most players don't invest in stuff because they like the concept

They invest in whatever is the strongest at any given time

[edgy crane]

Okay so they acknowledge it is strongest

So they should be expecting the nerfs

[modern marten]

Sunk cost fallacy is a bitch

[edgy crane]

Okay yikes prom hands got a buff

[tough talon]

Yeah, now they are perfect

[edgy crane]

Well initially i thought it also increased crit effectiveness, but going from 30% to 40% only isn't that bad

Still makes it by far the best choice for a weapon but atleast it won't be giga broken

[tough talon]

Yeah

Now we need multi hit physical hit like Ara Vesta 2 and Chained Shield

[edgy crane]

And we need a multi hit pact please and thank you

[cunning charm]

I'm just really curious about the design choice behind the prom augments right now.

If celestial weapons aren't meant to outclass everything else, prom hands needed to be nerfed more, not buffed up to 8%.

Currently 8% chance and the crit multiplier means I'm using my celestial bow for everything if crit is involved. Pretty sure that is the opposite of what celestial weapons were intended to be

[dim rivet]

Right, so if they are too strong, reduce the crit damage. Less crit damage means less player power even with 100% crit chance.
Quite a few sources of crit chance, so reducing that doesn't reduce player power overall.

[tough talon]

If the crit damage is reduced more they wouldn't be usable outside of some niche use. Because of lack of attack on these

[orchid agate]

My preference is definitely to keep the crit chance on Prom hands as high as possible. I just think it makes the game fun and makes Towers so much more enjoyable.

[undone sigil]

prom hands were already outclassing everything else at 6% crit, and definitely outclassed non-celestial weapons

them being buffed is outright confusing

[orchid agate]

Im really happy to see NF and Odie modulating the change according to feedback. I dont expect it to go back to 12% (or even 10%) but Im happy to see theyre dialing it in.

[orchid agate]

I certainly see the case for reducing it from 12% (although I would be in favour of them staying there.) But at 6% I dont see a material difference between that and many other weapons loaded up with fero eyes.

I appreciate the goal is not necessarily for the celestial weapons to be best in class

But I think the game feels more fun when they are at least a bit better.

[undone sigil]

the difference is a very large crit multiplier...

[orchid agate]

I get that, and thats why I always proposed knocking that down rather than just the cc. But at some point, crit multipliers just feel like "look what I can do" rather than allowing players to navigate elements of the game effectively.

[undone sigil]

re-buffing Prometheus hands goes against their stated design of celestials being sidegrades/variety choices. this is just upgrades for virtually anyone that wants to increase their damage. M1/base stats are important, but player power has outpaced enemy defences for a long time now

[cunning charm]

^ that

[undone sigil]

the thing about the titan augments are that they have effects unique/rarely seen elsewhere. making titan augments just.. ferocious eyes seems incorrect

[cunning charm]

If the intent is for celestial weapons to be outright better than every other weapon for crit builds, this change is fine.

But my understanding is that celestial weapons aren't supposed to be the best in every instance, so this buff is, to quote Major, confusing

[orchid agate]

I think thats kind of my point. If you can get nearly the same benefit from Fero eye, what makes it special? Other than a crit multiplier that really only matters for raids?

[undone sigil]

the multiplier does not only matter for raids

[cunning charm]

At 6% it would take pinions, and we were close to a place where the decision would be:

High initial damage with potential penetration issues as raids scaled versus lower initial damage with better sustain

[undone sigil]

I'm not sure why the crit multiplier is being discounted so heavily regarding its strength

it matters a lot in a lot of places. it matters where player damage matters which happens to be a lot of places, particularly given endgame optimisation optimises for speed as consistency is solved (and has been for a long time)

[cunning charm]

The crit damage bonus is also a multiplier with other crit damage bonuses, like the amity, which makes it that much stronger

[undone sigil]

the thing that makes it special is the crit multiplier. ignoring that in a discussion surrounding its strength does not paint a full picture

and we're all well aware of how potent/impactful crit multipliers are, otherwise thwack wouldn't be the go-to amity choice, Heretic wouldn't be preferred over Deity etc.

[orchid agate]

I certainly take your points and Im not trying to ignore the multiplier - it is clearly important. My point is that at a certain point, we are just adding multipliers that mean we are blasting standard mobs into oblivion by hitting way over their effective hp. It seems to me that the environment where these damage totals are most relevant are raids where the raid can actually survive those kinds of hits.

I do recognise though that the multiplier also increases the damage floor which helps in plenty of environments.

So I think the most sensible approach is to reduce both a bit rather than just the cc.

[floral linden]

I still think the multiplier should be 1.05 or removed. I'm fine with the crit chance being high, because there are plenty of high adorn slot weapons that can get a similar or better crit chance.

If there was a crit multiplier adornment, it should be its own adornment entirely.

It's very strong for one adorn to have both

[orchid agate]

Yea thats an interesting thought. Its a real balancing act to try and get it right with both on one adornment.

Bottom line for me is I have tons of fun with Prom hands as they are.

@spice flower, if the nerf stands, can you please give us a week or two's notice so we can properly say good bye by blasting any and all mobs and raids into the ether?

[floral linden]

I like the 8% chance because it gives me some options on 2h weapons. I love 2h but they are a bit under powered, so I can make a decent build work with the change.

[misty dune]

there will be a nerf, just start blasting now

[spice flower]

is this beta not notice enough?

[floral linden]

It's plenty, you're good

[orchid agate]

I think something formal would just help me get closure.

[misty dune]

it's gonna get nerfed, go blast.

i'll give you closure

[orchid agate]

Haha

[undone sigil]

there's an announcement stating that it's going to be nerfed already 😅

[misty dune]

there's zero chance it's NOT nerfed

[undone sigil]

the "official" thing exists

[misty dune]

so idk what you're looking for, some magical nerf where above it's ok below it's not? 😄

YOU WILL BE WEAKER. GO BLAST.

[orchid agate]

Oh Im blasting bro, dont worry about that.

I just thought a bit of ceremony would be appropriate to mark this kind of change.

[undone sigil]

it's just a nerf lol

though, I suppose in the land of Orna nerfs are like unicorns

[cunning charm]

The ceremony will be blasting Amorri a million times with our busted weapons before they get nerfed

[orchid agate]

I feel a bit like Kung Fu Panda when he finds out Kung Fu might die - "Awwww, but I just got Kung Fu!"

[orchid agate]

I can live with that actually.

@undone sigil you asked earlier on whether your views were in the minority or not - my sense from following the threads is that you are safely in the majority (no pun intended.)

[undone sigil]

unsure. see: the nerf being walked back

[orchid agate]

Touche

I feel though like Ive seen more people defending the original nerf than I have seen criticising it.

[kindred nest]

This chat is 4 or 5 people making 50 comments each. Just my two cents.

[orchid agate]

Touche again 😂

Damn, Im like 0 for 2 now

[rough zinc]

Would be nice for NF to drop some of that sweet sweet survey data so that we can get more objective numbers 🙂

That being said, even if 99% of people don't want a nerf, that doesn't mean a nerf isn't warranted.
Similar 99% not wanting a buff and getting a buff anyway, rare as it may be.

[kindred nest]

But it did got nerf

[orchid agate]

Totally agree with that sentiment.

I guess NF is trying to balance their commitment to honouring the customer voice with that of staying true to the game.

[rough zinc]

at some point you have to account for the kind of game NF wants to make. if they want it to be harder or easier, that's ultimately their choice. the player demographic bends behind that choice -- people that wanted a harder game leave when the game gets easier, and people that want an easier game show up when the game is easier.

[kindred nest]

Isnt that normal for every game? Player base recycles.

[rough zinc]

not sure how to comment on "normal" 😅 it happens, but it's not a requirement of game design that games trend only toward becoming easier.

[kindred nest]

One metric that we dont have is how many players have downloaded and played and got to endgame. Discord is not a measure of that since you get the people that commit here. Im pretty sure is a tiny bit of the people that plays the game.

[rough zinc]

The pattern over the years has been pretty clear -- that the earlier game has gotten faster and easier over time. NF also has made strides in getting info from other places outside of Discord (reddit, facebook, even twitter), and as they showed recently, tools for large data scraped from actual gameplay.

The thing we're talking about when we talk about celestial augments is pretty clearly just an endgame concern (also high ascension, and a number of other topics). The people on discord are actually right in line with that, demographic wise.

[kindred nest]

Alot of stuff that gets discussed here is unknown for the majority of players, including dmg formulas.

[rough zinc]

if we were spending all our time talking about the plight of the poor T5s then I might agree that it's a mismatch 😅

[kindred nest]

These kind of thing mather most for the tiny fraction of the player base here. Not for the rest.

I disagree with the whole concept of before was harder you get an easier game now. Perhaps now is a beter game for the people starting.

Alot of QoL changes over the years made the game better. Because its easier or faster in someways doesnt make it unfair or bad.

[rough zinc]

Is your position that endgame doesn't matter because it's a small number of players? Or -- what is your point?

[kindred nest]

No

Thats not my point at all

All i'm saying is that balancing the game when the feedback is based on how hard or simple the game is for geared endgame players doesnt mean is good for the rest of the player base in some cases. Im sure you can balance out crit chance in other ways without the OP augments. But is not something intuitive or simple for 90% of the player base. Thats all im saying.

[rough zinc]

Geared endgame players are the sole people affected by celestial augment changes.

[kindred nest]

You expect effort and reward when you download a game. The question is: how you balance it? Is it really needed to commit 4 years to a game to see a real OP performance? Most people will just cycle to another game at that point.

Thats not true at all taking in consideration Aethric exists now. Endgame is reachable faster there and balance changes so far affect both games equally.

[rough zinc]

If a player is in T10 and has a maxed celestial weapon, they are unequivocally endgame. They're doing the hardest pve challenge in the game with aplomb, enough to farm lots of tower shards, and they're using the last set of gear.

[kindred nest]

This is coming from an Aethric player PoV. The sole reason i have to be in this chat to know what will affect my performance in Aethric should tell you how the other player base feels.

[analog crystal]

Fwiw, Towers of Olympia and as a result, Celestial Augments are very much end game content.
We utilise a lot of information to inform decision making around balance for the game, but it's fair to say that the end game content will be influenced by the success of end game players in that content to a degree, and should be.

Aethric and Orna are looked at separately for class performance, and the collated information is utilised to help decision making. We don't just utilise Orna numbers to decide it all 🙂

Bevvy might be too slang, I'll try and un-Australian what I'm saying ha

[kindred nest]

Thats true but we still get the same balance patches.

[rough zinc]

If your performance in Aethric is affected by changes to celestial augments -- then you are in the endgame.

And yeah, the big blog post showing off NF's tools should imply strongly that balance decisions are not solely determined by Orna Discord posts.

[orchid agate]

We use bevvy Stateside so youre all good 🙂

[analog crystal]

Think it's meant to be one 'v', I just learned that ha

[kindred nest]

Im just stating what at least my kingdom in Aethric feels at some point. And we are number 1 there. So yeah, we are mostly endgame. Difference is it took us 2 months to reach endgame. Not years. So its probable more players in Aethric will get to endgame faster than here.

[analog crystal]

Faster is an interesting one in Aethric, as it's more a product of content accessibility than player drive. GPS has a larger barrier to content access

[orchid agate]

I think Bevy in the UK means a pint though

Sorry, Ill stop interrupting.

[kindred nest]

Lets take in consideration this. You guys had way more cycles of content to replace celestial weapons, like A. Morri event. We didnt. We dont really have a way to replace some stuff we got now. Im not saying nerf was not needed. I think everyone agrees with that.

Im ok personally with the changes made

[analog crystal]

I'm not entirely following what you desire to see done differently than what is in this patch - apologies. I'll go back and re-read your posts to see if it's clearer to me.

[kindred nest]

Im not asking for anything.

Was just expressing my feeling about how some may look for further changes based in how they perceive the game. And they see changes that are not in place with that, like the recent crit buff back to 8%. That doesnt seem fair to some but for most is either good or they wont even realize the change was made since most people dont have a discord account.

[analog crystal]

We have a game updates pop-up upon first load of each day 🙂

[rough zinc]

I think the underlying disagreement lies here:

Is it really needed to commit 4 years to a game to see a real OP performance?
I don't think 100 years of a game should result in "OP performance".

Personally speaking, a game should retain challenge at all times because... that's the game. To solve the pve challenges, make the builds, react to the enemies.

There is a clear and obvious demographic (the so-called "power fantasy" players) that expect to eventually be at a point where all challenges are behind them; where one build defeats everything; for which nerfs that threaten that goal are seen as a purely bad thing.

It is possible to exhaust all the content with extreme amounts of gameplay, in that you overcome each challenge at least once using all the player options at your disposal. But that's a different thing than the challenge itself going away. Especially in the endgame, it's not a good thing to keep dropping power onto the players at least without dropping commensurate power onto enemies -- and that's clearly what happened with the tower patch giving too much endgame power.

The simple question to ask is: would people still farm for prometheus hands, seek them out, and use them if they were 6%? If so, then they absolutely don't need to be 8%.

[kindred nest]

Thats true. But now ask yourself this. Is it gamebreaking for a high AL player? No.
Can it affect the performance of an endgame but not end-end game player? Yes. Most of the people commenting here can clear all content with plain gear. Some just thrive to never die once at pvp with a build. All im saying is that as little as it seems it hurts most a player base that doesnt normally voice out in these chats.

[orchid agate]

Thats very insightful @rough zinc , thank you for that. I think I probably fall into the "power fantasy" demo to some extent. And I see your point that that is probably not good for the game from a longevity point of view.

For me, to be honest, I wouldnt make any investment for Prom hands at 6% - for me it's just not worth it for a weapon locked to 5 slots.

Personally, Prom Hands were super super fun. I will definitely miss them after the nerf. But for now Im going to enjoy blasting...and Im going to look into local regulations regarding building Viking funeral pyres in my back yard to say a proper good bye.

[cunning charm]

Not that this will be addressed in this patch, but calling x5 prom hands and a level 20 celestial weapon as "endgame" feels... not right

There isn't a rarity requirement attached to hands to get their full power, and there isn't a tower height requirement for the shards either. Fresh T10s have access to the full power of the augments with nothing other than a little bit of patience

[rough zinc]

There isn't a rarity requirement attached to hands to get their full power, and there isn't a tower height requirement for the shards either.
Seems like something worth changing 😄

[cunning charm]

And given that current state celestial weapons with prom hands negate every other weapon choice, there is a major incentive to hit as many low height towers as possible to get the weapon ASAP and then never worry about weapon choice again

[rough zinc]

quality could certainly matter more, and height could be required for certain qualities.

[cunning charm]

Oh I absolutely agree, and I've been arguing for that since Beta, but people don't like this idea when I suggest it 😅

[floral linden]

People would seek out any adornment that multiplied crit damage, probably even if it was 6% or lower crit chance. The oomph lies mostly in the multiplier, not the crit chance. The crit chance you can get is comfortably within the boundaries of other endgame items. I really do think the bonuses should be separate, because two very handy, very meta stats on one item is going to be more difficult to properly balance.

If they were separated, you'd have to use up your preciously small 5 slots balancing between one and the other -- or, you'd get the option of going all in and get good crit chance with lower damage or good damage but having to compensate with ash pins and other adorns.

[kindred nest]

I think its a mather of perception. Someone stated here that didnt understand the reason behind the buff. Today the overall feeling from the people i play with, that really dont care that much if its 6 or 8 was: nice! Not why? Different player bases different perceptions.

[rough zinc]

for those that don't care if it's 6 or 8, it should be 6 😅

[floral linden]

If the two bonuses were separate, it could probably get away with being 10% chance and still not be outlandish. It really is the bonus that's the crazy part.

It was wild putting them on and nuking entire raid bosses from orbit even though the crit chance and mag was lower than my aQat

[orchid agate]

wild fun af

[floral linden]

https://tenor.com/view/muttly-laughing-giggle-silent-laugh-laugh-gif-5561789

[modern marten]

I don't think people are giving enough credit where credit is due to Crit multiplier

There's pretty much a reason that - to borrow an example from another game - in Genshin once you're capable of reaching ~70% crit chance you get significantly higher returns out of stacking more crit damage than crit chance

[modern marten]

If the two bonuses were separate then you'd just split your adorns 50/50 between the cc and cd, which changes effectively nothing

[meager jungle]

The difference between Genshin's base 70% crit chance meta and 100% crit chance meta in Orna is that for some classes, they have crit chance related purposes.

Some classes have in-built higher crit dmg, making gain more DPS by increasing the crit chance. Other classes have crit mechanics, where they heal or the do Y and Z. You can be one crit away from life and death, and once that 30% get you, you're fucked.

In Genshin, 1 crit won't change your fate of life and death. But in orna it can, specially with the "low ammounts" of attacks players make compared to genshin's characters. meanwhile 1 enemy can be hit for more than 20 times, in orna that would be way too much, so Genshin goes by DPS, meanwhile Orna goes for bursts of consistency

[modern marten]

And yet on classes that have no inherent crit interactions it's still better to build for crit (except SS gilga) because crits are just... Better. There's literally no reason to try and build for anything but crits at the moment.

[meager jungle]

The end-game places where crit is not there (except in crit classes), show a "perfect balanced skill" (in a perfect world). Being SS or similars for Gilga, Different pet alternatives for Beo, or BP with summoner

Why is that? It's simply because there's absolutely 0 need for crit to be there, since other classes simply have less effectiveness when trying it

Aside from those crits skills there's RS & Heretic, Crit classes. Being the classes that, by design, should be crit fiestas!

I won't touch deity since it's an all-facet class that shouldn't be accounted for in these sort of cases

[modern marten]

You do realize that the strongest skills for GS and Beo are not skills they get from their own class lines but... drum roll please... skills that can crit from other class lines

Because crit is just better

[meager jungle]

I would also place Verse in here, but since Deity is also good at hybrid, sadly it needs crit for it to be "balanced" around with the possibility of other classes

[meager jungle]

So the easy fix would be remove crit for non-crit classes?

I mean, Beo doesn't have recharge anymore, so they don't have to care about crits at all now

[sick crest]

By 100 %

[meager jungle]

If it isn't clear enough, obviously some skills/spells would have to get buffed/reworked

And class-locking would become even a bigger problem

If Orna is about grabbing stuff from all the other classes and smash it together into a build, it makes sense for Beo or GS to grab crit skills since they are the only classes that have skills that can even be remotely suitted for them!

I don't have anything else to add

[pliant mist]

Beoh hydrus is saying hello. We retain recharge and need crit

[meager jungle]

Then Verse is fine with crit since it is part of a semi-crit class

I use is "semi-crit class" since it doesn't get the x2.5 crit dmg but it still uses crit mechanics

Also, I thought recharge was removed for all beo including celestials, mb

[jovial ridge]

Didn't read everything, but got a bit worked up when I saw comments on how they feel a reduction of crit chance on prom hands is bad

Even with the reduction in crit chance, you will still use your celestial weapon with 5 prom hands. That just goes to show that it has already improved on what u had pre-towers

slotting ashen pinions to get crit rate up is just a way of balancing the final dmg output, which imo is fair

[rugged wigeon]

Late to the party but weighing in here - i do not see an issue to these nerfs, and crit is my main go to for melee/mage/and hybrid

Forcing us to think differently and build other things is good imo. Maybe crit isn't always the way forward. Makes for more variety which you'll find me (almost) always promoting

40% crit for mainhand is solid, plus 1.1^5 crit damage boost compared to the competition seems more balanced than before

[orchid agate]

A lot of sensible opinions in here that are trying to lead Orna down the path of righteousness...

[deft pier]

Cap crit at 50% and cut all crit gains in half

[modern marten]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-get-to-work-gif-21630516

[fast roost]

Just add another 25 levels and harder content so the vocal minority can have some challenges….

[deft pier]

Give AL to mobs

[visual solar]

I don't think anyone cares about AL in PvE. In PvP it's a source of imbalance, but so are amities, second chance, mystic feather, and basically anything else left up to they RNG. If you want to really balance the classes in PvP, you're gonna have to strip them down first.

[fast roost]

Amities are a particular area of concern as players can and do share spots. There are no other Places in game that can offer the same benefits correct me if I’m wrong but sharing amities is probably the most op part of this game.

[opal sandal]

No one cares about Al in PvE? Lol I very much do 😂

[visual solar]

I'll rephrase. I don't think AL in PvE needs to be addressed. Your ability to finish PvE content in fewer turns or go farther in endless has no bearing on anyone else's gameplay (other than your ability to run up leaderboard stats, I guess, but that's a comparatively small issue). There's no need to cap or otherwise diminish it. On the other hand, AL in PvP can be completely demoralizing. The same arena pool has players with 170 ALs and players with zero, and that fight is predetermined. Nothing spoils a good colosseum run faster.

Having amassed 76 ascension levels myself, I enjoy that advantage and have put in the time to accrue it. However, I recognize that it's a balance problem which will only get worse over time if not addressed.

If AL did not affect PvP stats, ascension would still be worthwhile for its PvE value but we'd have one less major obstacle to PvP balance.

[opal sandal]

That makes sense!

Im not sure if changing ascension if pvp would change the state too much, people will still just run the strongest builds and complain, I feel like it would just end up the same haha

But I still agree with you

[rough zinc]

I feel exactly the opposite. 🤷‍♂️

PvP is fairly infrequent and unimportant. Wide AL differences matter there, but it's also a place for people to flex their farming muscles and show off.

PvE is the bread and butter, and when it becomes easy to ascend past all challenges, then it reduces too much of the game. Plus, endless and raids scale strongly with AL -- deeper endless runs mean squared rewards; faster raids mean you kill them before they attack which means even faster raids (no more worrying about defense).

also: why is this discussion happening in augment adjustment thread? 😆

[opal sandal]

I wouldn't be using beo in pvp if ascension wasn't in pvp! No idea fux lol just replying 🤣

I agree with both lol

[rough zinc]

I think it just means that neither pvp nor pve are ignorable milieus when it comes to AL-change discussions.

[opal sandal]

Mmhmm!