Valhallan Changes

[summer gulch]

Nah I was saying that bc beoA passive gives 2 bond stacks and beos had a passive that gave 2 stacks

So of that stacked then that's 4 lvls of bond (at the time)

[summer gulch]

You beos think odie might make specific gear for beos under the "valhallan" class tag and remove our equip all for valhallan only?

Bv the fomorian now has a valhallan class tag on gear and that precedent scares me

[umbral glade]

removing that tag now would brick so many players

but valhallan only gear is a thing

[wicked sandal]

that'd be one heck of a drastic change and not one they can easily make without introducing metric loads of valhallan gear first

[umbral glade]

like, my only shoes are baldr boots, if tmrw i cant use mage gear anymore i legit dont gave shoes

[wicked sandal]

as it stands now that'd be a massive nerf

[umbral glade]

only way i could see that change going is if every item until that point gets "legacy" tag, as in can be equipped by you forever or something and then going forward with a new system

[summer gulch]

This is how I feel it'll be, but I'm anxious

Worrying for no reason but to worry

😭

[gentle pier]

Not to mention Beo/Valhallan specific gear is all very similar. No variation beyond some resistances and slight Stat differences.

[noble stag]

Not to mention beo and summoner share the same pieces of gear for some reason

Even though we can't even use followers we get a buff

[wicked sandal]

Even though we essentially can't use summons we get a buff

[last bane]

it can be, but the same for All pets, smt like +50% to pet stats

and i more than sure that it feasible

[sick tinsel]

at the base, we had 3 equipment category :

• Warrior (Att, Def, Ward)
• Thief (Dex, Crit, Status)
• Mage (Mag, Res, Mana)

Each one representing a fighting style and a stat category
And then you have God classes that represent the mix of all.

Valhallan can only wear Warrior and Mage gear ... except the Final class Beowulf that can wear also Thief class !

For me, God classes' ability to wear an gear is just showing they are the polyvalent classes and the ultimate being.

Valhallan are warrior and mage from Northren, explaining their affinity with Hybrid.
Beowulf gaining access to Thief shows the achivement of freedom at the end of the journey to become the ultimate monster.

Valhallan gear started existing with Draconian Era gear, that increases Follower IA.
Odie surely wanted to avoid other classes to exploit an equipment that can boost a certain pet spamming a certain ability ...

And then you have Summoner, that can use Mage gear only.
They gained soon after Summoner gear, to avoid other classes to use summons more efficiently (With -90% stats, that's not a very good choice even with full stat boosting gear).

Restraining Valhallan to only Valhallan gear will :

• Reduce drastically choices of gear
• Force devs to create new gear at each tier where valhallan exist
• Restrain the number of build possible and force player in boring gameplay

However, even If i'm not pleased with it, you can remove Thief gear from BeoO and BeoA, and let BeoH the gear ... but Beowulf has low dex ... removing the few Dex gear that Beowulf can have access and use will be painful.

Conclusion : If Beowulf has access to all class gear, it's to compensate its low stats.

[noble stag]

Yeah it seems neither of the classes likes this

Separate gear with more distinct abilities that help the class it's made for will be way better

[elfin rampart]

Ironically, is one of the features that barely affects pets.

[sick tinsel]

My critical damage bonus being useless for Fjalar ... comical.

[summer gulch]

WHAT

Damnit

I use crit does 40% more dmg for my fjalalalr

Back to 15% more pet dmg :<

[umbral glade]

more pet stats*

that does not equal dmg

a 57% pet stat weapon on beoA with tamer is a ~20% dmg increase

[tulip tundra]

Wish that more amities would affect pets

[stoic epoch]

Even that wouldn't fix us.

It'd be nice

[tulip tundra]

It would be a nice QoL

[umbral glade]

crit amnity isnt even good for fjalar

aerial barrage has like 30% chance to be used

and has a realistic chance to crit of like 40-60ish %

so very rough maths, 15% chance to deal 40% more dmg

so like.. a 6% dmg increase

the classes that use the 40% crit dmg have 100% crit chance and use the move in 100% of their dmg turns

so its like a 35% dmg increase at least, when we say we want to regen ward or use a buff/debuff sometimes

[stoic epoch]

I like the concept of Bestial Bonds, but I'd take it a step further and treat it like Warlock Pacts in D&D. Each one completely changed the flavor of the class.

[ivory birch]

amities really should affect followers and summons. without that the outcomes are (as far as i can see..):

• followers/summons fall behind player damage, since that has more options for boosting damage (current)
  or
• followers/summons require much more effort in implementing things that serve as alternatives to player damage boosts, and may not be balanced comparatively

i can see the case for gear not affecting it, but amities definitely should

[umbral glade]

you are right

but honestly

[stoic epoch]

And faction element damage bonuses

[ivory birch]

yes, that too should affect it

[umbral glade]

why stop at amnities, you could say that for all gear

[ivory birch]

easy thing to forget about, but makes such a big difference

[umbral glade]

we are the "you dont need gear" class but also the "gear wont help you deal dmg" class

and it sucks honestly

[ivory birch]

amities are different than gear, to me. val/summ gearing differently than eg. thief/mage/war is cool

[umbral glade]

having options is cool

[ivory birch]

ideally the gear for val/summ wouldn't suck

[umbral glade]

having non is not cool

i would like to see my dmg get bigger when equipping a crazy weapon

not a 20% dmg increase going from no weapon to THE BEST option

imagine RS getting a 20% dmg increase by going from a carls dagger to a max ornamented high ornate arisen fey morrigan bow

[summer gulch]

Give my pet defense

Become summoner

I get you though yalalalalla and agree

[stoic epoch]

Hmm, no changes for bonds yet today.

[last bane]

They're still disappointing now

[stoic epoch]

Well, they haven't changed since Thursday or Friday.

Maybe we're getting one big change to test out this week.

[umbral glade]

last update was commented with "expect them all to change, those are just placeholders at this point"

[last bane]

Sounds great, but high expectations will only make things worse.

[umbral glade]

it will not be "here is the third iteration of bestial bonds, i will not change it ever again, bye"

and i dont think the beta will end in the next few days, so there is most likely conversation to be had

[stoic epoch]

See, I disagree.

If I was working on something and I knew it was highly anticipated I'd be more likely to put in the effort to make it special.

[last bane]

If Odie is currently changing bonuses between 3-7% in these bonds on beta, it's very hard to expect anything really amazing.

[stoic epoch]

He's already said the values are just placeholders

[last bane]

Then what's the point of changing them in such a tiny range?

[stoic epoch]

I think he's checking to make sure the different bonds do what he wants before he starts tweaking the numbers like crazy.

But that's just my 10 cents based on what makes sense to me.

He may also be trying to figure out how to code in more complex bonds.

[wicked sandal]

Never forget 70% status resist

[stoic epoch]

https://tenor.com/view/ill-never-forget-it-its-all-in-my-head-i-wont-forget-it-remarkable-exceptional-gif-15789456

[last bane]

We'll see in the future
But what I see now makes me sad

[umbral glade]

70% status resist as tamer*

[stoic epoch]

What I see now makes me hopeful.

I understand how you feel though, Beo has languished for a very long time in sort of an underpowered balance limbo.

Anything other than knee-jerk massive buffs feels like the changes are too tepid.

[umbral glade]

i think the "making pet based builds deal damage like the top end of player based damage with just bestial bond" idea is not realistic

[last bane]

This still doesn't solve the problem of Beo hitting his head against the pet's damage ceiling.

[stoic epoch]

I'm right there with you, but if that turns out to be the case Odie needs to arrive there naturally.

[umbral glade]

yea i think its a combination of bonds, base class buffs and item changes

last few days of conversation made me realize that beo gearing is more of a problem I always thought

this whole "you dont need gear" thing

is just, eww.

who wants that from their favorite class

that felt great from 225-230

[stoic epoch]

It'd be fine if there were other ways to make up for it

[umbral glade]

no, i want to improve my gear

and make meaningful progress

on the offensive side

yes, having more and more ward is nice

but it lacks oomf

like when you found that nice staff when playing mage

we dont actually have that for offense, only for defence

i said earlier that going from no weapon to a 5x pet stat celestial lute, the highest pet stat weapon possible

is just a 20% increase

imagine playing any other class and saying that

[stoic epoch]

They'd mutiny

[umbral glade]

"i went from no weapon to a fully enchanted celestial weapon and now i deal 20% more dmg!"

[last bane]

There are almost no difference between Beo with +130% pet stats and without, really .-.
It's too much survivability sacrifice for...nothing

[umbral glade]

i said before, i hope for bonds to be a utility focused mechanic and our damage problems to be improved by a QoL passive and mainly our gearing choices

you know, like other classes but through a pet

[last bane]

Just compare yourself to this lute for +57% pet stats
And some mage-shifter with 5 prometheus gems

[umbral glade]

we shouldnt be the highest damage due to our playstyle

since we can do most of our offense while still playing very defensive

[last bane]

+8% pet stats at cactus's 2nd bond?
Ha-ha.

[umbral glade]

but bonds being a damage bandaid will lead to 90% of bonds being not used since there will be a definite "best" damage pet

[stoic epoch]

But pet gear isn't going to be done "soon"

[umbral glade]

bonds being a utility thing can make the availability for different pet choices skyrocket

[stoic epoch]

So we need something else to tide us over

[umbral glade]

not pet gear, as in give your bird a sword and shield

[stoic epoch]

Oh

[umbral glade]

i mean, a passive that makes atk from your items influence your pet

(or something like that)

so i can make meaning full item choices instead of defaulting to the most ward

[last bane]

Yes, just make the gear on the stats of the pet work as it should!
(Until the pet's gear is introduced)

I'd agree to play "Glass Sword" if it even worked.

[umbral glade]

i said this before as well: pet A having +20% dmg and pet B having +40% dmg will still mean A or B is better, thats just how math works.
But lets explore my utility thought:
Pet A brings 20% view distance
Pet B brings a chance for mobs to drop an additional item
Pet C improves Orns gained by 20%

Pet D does 30% more damage than the other 3 options

but maybe i need view distance

or I want to focus on Orns so i take the dmg loss for more Orns

Now you are making a trade off based on the things you want

not on what some spreadsheet told you is the highest damage per turn

I still like the idea of (max level) bonds adding skills to the class line of pets, i love that

but "just damage" will make everything a "just look at the spreadsheet" or "pick the cactus for AoE"

[stoic epoch]

Adding cool utility would give us a reason to pick up holiday pets.

[umbral glade]

imagine a xmas themed pets having a chance to drop presents like the xmas goblin fortress

[stoic epoch]

For example, if the Scruug pets utility was centered around getting more orns / xp / gold, like a Treasure Hunter type buff.

Or presents

That'd work too

[umbral glade]

anyways, thats just my current thought about bonds now that some time passed

[last bane]

Too weak position
It can be usefull for other classes through Tamer
But not for Beo, not in that way

[umbral glade]

the thing is

you could just say "base beo pets deal 2x damage, BeoA does 3x pet damage"

but that just reinforces the whole "beo doesn need gear"

yes it would fix the damage problems

but would that really be a good chance?

wouldnt it be better to transfer that increase in damage to something related to items or something

believe me, being the "class that doesnt need gear and gets handed stuff for free" with full farming items is not what you want to be

[last bane]

Yes, it would
Because beo's low damage that you can't even disperse - is a real problem of Beo's class
Even BeoH can do better

[umbral glade]

idk, just being given 3x damage would mean you would clear all dungeons naked

by pure power of the passive skills

that shouldnt happen

[quaint maple]

The inference was the follower equipment was going to be designed to offer additional unique playstyles, which is what Amities offer. Affecting the follower is irrelevant in that case

Hopefully saving Odie a response!

[umbral glade]

anyways, i think bestial bonds are an interesting mechanic for many things, but idk if it Is or SHOULD be the bandage to fix all damage troubles

[last bane]

his beta, this patch is designed to solve the problems of shifters and beo
And as I see now with these bonds - yes, the mechanics are interesting, potentially a solution ... but at the moment I don’t even see close that they would really solve the class problem

[umbral glade]

saying that is easy, finding a good solution for it is not

that takes time

[stoic epoch]

Again, the numbers will be tweaked . . . And we've anyway been told this isn't a short beta, so if Bonds don't fix us I'm sure he'll try another tack.

[umbral glade]

just giving 3x damage is not a good change, thats how you end up like diablo 3 having 80000% damage multipliers

[stoic epoch]

The numbers are satisfying though.

120 bill crits.

[umbral glade]

120b is like 2018 stuff

its in the trillions now

[stoic epoch]

Jaysis

My point is, he's taken time to develope Bonds, he realizes we're deeply unhappy with the performance of the class we love, I think he's got a vested interest in trying to make it right.

Look what he did with the Realmies and Avidity. They seem stoked.

[last bane]

it can be solved through mechanic who already have
The same gear for pet stats, why can't it work better? (especially since for the most part it will require huge sacrifices of the ward)
Why are pets not affected by these amities?
Why do crit/elemental damage modifiers in gear not affect pets?
Why spec of Sequencer not affect the doublecast of pet?(and so on)
Such ordinary things could fix the problem, why introduce new problems like the same bonds?

[umbral glade]

those are much different points than what you said before. What you said earlier sounded like "bonds bad, give me more dmg"

Saying "all damage based amnities should effect pets" is a good change

[last bane]

I almost always whine that gear with pet stats does not work
In the last post, I just put it all together

[umbral glade]

posts like your lasts are much more helpful

[stoic epoch]

I saw him start typing and went to check the beta for bond changes.

[hasty knoll]

I almost always whine that gear with pet stats does not work

what doesn't work about it?

pet amity access unfortunately just doesn't work. I wouldn't think players would want to be locked into an amity that potentially only works for their follower

given bonds can provide the same effects, why would you want to lose your amity slot?

even if sequencer doublecast works, would you give up tamer?

these are definitely topics that have been explored. unfortunately, they often don't solve too much

[umbral glade]

honestly, i dont think using the amnity slot for my pet is "losing it"

its me using my equipment slots to increase my main source of damage

[hasty knoll]

only works for their follower

[umbral glade]

yes

i know

[hasty knoll]

you would give up an amity slot that benefitted you?

[umbral glade]

100%

if i could use my aminity slot to make my pet deal more dmg

i would LOVE to

[wicked sandal]

Well 15% follower stat amity is a thing

[umbral glade]

its literally the thing i WANT to do

[wicked sandal]

It just feels kind of bad compared to people using 40% crit dmg

[hasty knoll]

was just about to say this

[sick tinsel]

if it is for 50% pet stat that are additive and only adds +10ish % in total ... that might be in consideration

[umbral glade]

15% is sadly useless

[wicked sandal]

Even if you consider follower stat being m1 and most dmg amities being m2, the value of a follower dmg amity just pales in comparison

[umbral glade]

swapping from a 0% pet stat weapon to a 57% pet stat weapon on BeoA tamer increases my pets atk by 20%

[stoic epoch]

Yeah, but that's not a good comparison because if how little damage that gets you

[hasty knoll]

i'm more-so referring to amities that may make your build. to me, stacking those useful effects with a bond is more significant

[umbral glade]

i dont think a 15% amnity will do much for me

what amnity "makes" a build?

"do 40% more dmg on crits" isn't something i would consider "my build"

[stoic epoch]

Ward regen is pretty big qol for Beo

I always run that one

[hasty knoll]

i'm not sure i suggested crit. Ward is a great example

[umbral glade]

QoL yes, "make your build" is not

[sick tinsel]

I like it too, but doesn't help offensively

[stoic epoch]

No, but I rarely have to recast db2 before the raid just naturally nukes me dead in 1 turn anyway

[umbral glade]

i think you might be misjudging the thought players put into amnities

its very hard to ever pass up 40% crit dmg

the pet based people just cant use that so we default to positive status duration or ward (regen/turns)

if i could delete my amnity slot for 30% more dmg i wouldnt think twice

[sick tinsel]

Mana/Health regen are cool too

[umbral glade]

as i said, quality of live, yes.

sow ward is also cool for mana

[sick tinsel]

Amity would be extra defensive bonuses
Bestial Bond extra follower/offensive bonuses

[umbral glade]

and re: "what doesn't work about it?" gear with pet stats WORKS, but comparing the impact of Fallen Sky Shoes and Fey Chimera Greaves is not much of a comparison

[hasty knoll]

I feel like you're really suggesting the amity is too low a value. You're asking for an amity that increases follower damage, and it definitely exists, albeit low.

Knowing that, my question is (numbers ignored).

a) Would you prefer a stronger amity?
b) Or would you prefer a stronger bond to pair with an amity useful to the player?

b just sounds like a more diverse option

[umbral glade]

can i ask you a question. In the current state of pet based builds, do you think its damage is comparable to player based builds

[hasty knoll]

i think the fact that we're doing all this answers that question 🙂

[umbral glade]

i personally would like Amnities to be more QoL / utility focused, not a stat stick to pump dmg

[stoic epoch]

I'd prefer that too

[sick tinsel]

it's more unique, not direct output damage

Or direct stat buff

it increase elemental damage, critical damage

[stoic epoch]

But if you take away the 40% crit amity it's going to adversely slow down everyone that loves it

[sick tinsel]

double cast chance also

[hasty knoll]

these would be great answers if I asked how we all feel about amities in general 🙂

[stoic epoch]

B

[umbral glade]

is bestial bonds THE solution for all damage worries we have? I feel like this sets up the mechanic as a thing that is solved by maths and reduces the choices to a singular answer

[stoic epoch]

I'd prefer b

[sick tinsel]

b too

Making it stronger doesn't help

[quaint maple]

Having seen some of the internal notes and discussions on bonds, I'd say letting them evolve will be greatly appreciated by Valhallans and others alike. More iterations and additions to Amities can be another thing - both can exist!

[sick tinsel]

Two sides of the same coin

[umbral glade]

I cant answer with A OR B. I think a better pure damage option for pets should be available, but i also think bonds can help with that

[sick tinsel]

you replace pet stats to pet damage ?

[umbral glade]

But I honestly think the "gear to power level value" (on the offensive side) for our class is very lacking

[hasty knoll]

everything we're talking here can boost damage - the greater conversation is which is the best place to boost damage

[umbral glade]

i want to be like other classes

i want to find a great item

and i want that item to translate into damage

a 57% pet stat lute being 20% stat increase compared to NO weapon

just doesnt feel great

if you compare no weapon to a t10 ornate weapon on any other class

(idk much about summoner)

[wicked sandal]

Summoner stat has a similar problem, but summoners also have blood pact, so they can gain raid dmg from getting good magic gear

[umbral glade]

but if a ornate t10 weapon would increase a heretics dmg by 20% compared to no weapon at all, they wouldnt be happy

[stoic epoch]

I don't necessarily care about gear, as long as the power level comes out in the wash. I think grinding gear for power makes the most sense classically.

[umbral glade]

and yes i know, there are multipliers added on top of the base stats

[hasty knoll]

it seems like you have a larger problem with the core designspace of the class. unfortunately, that wouldn't really be something we could consider in scope for a balance patch

[umbral glade]

TLDR; i want to influnce my damage more with my item choices and less with my passive skills

is something like a passive that saps your weapons offensive power and adds it to your pet for BeoA a possibility

[stoic epoch]

And Beo Classic

Don't forget Beo Classic

[umbral glade]

the class is, in my opinion, designed around giving up your own stats to empower your pet

[hasty knoll]

Auriga, yes. design space of base is moreso fighting alongside your follower. hence a continued focus on your own ability, to a degree

[umbral glade]

yea I agree with that, i was talking about auriga specifically

i argued before that putting the entire "power budget" into bonds feels like a setup that will lead to one pet being the highest damage per turn, making other options less interesting

[wicked sandal]

At least when it comes to straight dealing damage, that's just how it is. The only way you could make people not choose that highest dmg option is by making them niche or adding downsides (like fey chim who comes with zerk which is hard for us to manage as a no high tenacity redline class)

[umbral glade]

my argument was bonds being a utility based bonds mechanic with a damage increase coming from a baseline increase and gear being more of an influnce

that will make a pet still THE highest dpm, but the utility would make other pets situational good

[stoic epoch]

Then base needs additional player damage throughput so that design space translates.

[umbral glade]

hybrid reimagined - player stats increase pet stats, pet stats increase player stats

BeoH leans into one half, pet stats decreased for more player stats, BeoA decreasing player stat for more pet stats

[last bane]

i have my gear with +130% pet stats, this was achieved by sacrificing half my ward, reduced pet action chance, 0 immunities and very few defenses
In return, I received a barely 40% increase in pet damage, during the battle this maximum reduced my actions by 1 turn, and then if I suddenly get lucky and the pet does not miss
My losses are incommensurable with what I gained

Аmity could work with the pet not only through the growth of their stats (which gives negligible)
For example, that additional chance of a double cast for BeoA would be relevant
Or +40% crit damage for fjarl would also look good
Or maybe +20-30% elemental damage to Mimic's Ultima or Ymir?

Increasing the pet's doublecast chance would at least make me think about an alternative specialization option, and this is not limited to the sequencer
Pet casts bard dreams?
Does Pet put opponents in stasis?
Sounds good, I don't know how it would actually be..

[umbral glade]

(crit damage aminity for fjalar would only be a <6-10% damage increase, it would not be worth it)

[stoic epoch]

Yeah, we need consistency not just extra damage

[umbral glade]

Pet AI recognizing Gunnr/Snotra and making pets less likely to use skills that have their stat decreased would be a nice beginning

for the QoL/consistency part

same for not using Evasive strikes as much when the temp crit buff is already active

[last bane]

The best way out for BeoO/BeoA would be to be able to personally set the priority of pet skills

And I mean not the priority of skill types through "Calls"
I mean the priority of specific skills of the pet itself
Leave "Calls" for BeoH

[stoic epoch]

We talked about something like the Gambit system from Final Fantasy 12, the concern with something like that seemed to be potential pvp cheese.

[umbral glade]

pvp/pve split, could disable it in pvp

[stoic epoch]

I know, turn it off in pvp.

[umbral glade]

[stoic epoch]

I'm just saying, that was the concern

[umbral glade]

i think that would just make everybody use TMM and put in ultima 100%, other spells 0%

[last bane]

1. I am not familiar with the system from FF
2. I care a lot more about PvE, it doesn't have to work in PvP

[stoic epoch]

In short, the Gambit system was a player created priority list for using items, skills, etc.

[umbral glade]

idk if that system can exist with 3 turn spells being cast in 1 turn

[stoic epoch]

For example, using Fjalar:

Priority 1 - If no Dex buff, cast Speed.

Priority 2 - If no T. Crit buff cast Evasive Strikes.

Priority 3 - cast a main damaging ability, with player preference being Aerial Barrage.

You could work pet ai into the above so that with 3 levels of pet ai or so it always follows the player provided priority list.

[sick tinsel]

basically scripted preferences

[stoic epoch]

Exactly

With Odie's pet ai system determining how often it "listens" to you

[umbral glade]

this "only use magic based skills when i have Snotra" thing would be cool thou,
i would legit use medusa on bosses that are weak to petrify

anyways, i am looking forward to the next iteration of bonds

[stoic epoch]

Me too.

[umbral glade]

or powerlevel goes up and this whole valhallan dissonance thing is still happening

cant say much more about it w/o seeing the next update

oh the "no longer uses spells that opponents are immune to" thing is also nice

[stoic epoch]

I'm cool with the way Base Beo plays, even with Odie desiring to shake up the base beo meta by making me smack things. It just needs more oomph so I'm not so far behind everyone else.

[umbral glade]

i mean, thats beo's space

half pet, half smacking

[last bane]

Too hard
It's easier like this:
You have a 100% pull
You cannot bet less than 10% chance
You can put a maximum chance of 10% + 10 * Number of active Bonds

[umbral glade]

dont make me pull out my graph again

[stoic epoch]

That's the way it is now, as of this beta.

And I'm cool with that change.

Honestly it's finally making me want to go ahead and unlock Beo A.

[umbral glade]

yea it reminds me of bunny thumpers from guild wars 1

they were rangers with pets and they used a hammer

with permanent attack and movespeed buffs

[stoic epoch]

Especially if he tosses Beo A a stat bestowing / absorbing passive

[umbral glade]

like a player+pet tag team on speed

rushing things down

[elfin rampart]

It feels like we get casted to oblivion in every balance to the class.
Every time that NF plans a buff to Beo (pets) it turns 180° and does something else.
• Beo lacks pets damage, so NF proposes to create pets gear. Turned into Amities, which affects to everything but the pet damage (exception for 2~3 that are neglectable buffs)
• Beo pets lacks damage, so NF proposes to call pets into battle. Turned into a whole new class.
• Beo pets lacks damage, so NF proposes to create a new core mechanic. Turned into a +Dex +res passive buff.
At this point, we, the Valhallan pet community, have stated what we lack, what we need, what we propose and what we would like to solve these problems. Nonetheless, it gets overviewed and then we get neglected In discord feedback.
If there are no intentions/ plans to do something, please so estate it clearly, so we can just stop requesting in vain.

[last bane]

And what about class immunities?
I mean Dragon for BeoA/BeoH
Light & Dark for RS's

[stoic epoch]

Wait, how have we been gaslit?

Pet gear is still in the works.

[elfin rampart]

Where is this?

[stoic epoch]

I'm glad Summoner is a thing now, it's made progress easier for new people and fresh t10's.

[elfin rampart]

Multiple patches after years and we still at the same issue

[stoic epoch]

Oh, we've been neglected, I just don't think we've been gaslit.

[elfin rampart]

Allow me to change it, then

[stoic epoch]

And the bonds thing is being worked on.

[elfin rampart]

It will give a flat increase without effort from the plauer

[stoic epoch]

This balance pass has been a long time coming.

[stoic epoch]

Well now we don't know that for sure.

He's still working on it.

[elfin rampart]

Which part of your hard earned gear boosts your damage as BeoA?

You can run a broken -300 atk&mag fey chimera and get the same output

[stoic epoch]

I'm just as frustrated as every other Beo player, but I'm willing to wait and see what he does .

[elfin rampart]

As a Ornated Fey chimera +500atk&mag

[stoic epoch]

Getting mad about it isn't constructive.

Well, getting mad is fine as long as you're also constructive.

Is a better way of saying it.

[last bane]

Sorry, but you sure that if we don't show up our position right now - it wouldn't be too late after open beta ends?

[stoic epoch]

You need to give feedback.

Sure.

[last bane]

no one hears our feedback until we start crying

[elfin rampart]

Havent we been constructive enough over the pasts years?

And yet, we still at the same place

[umbral glade]

idk, bonds have to have HUGE numbers if we ever want to reach the numbers of other classes

thats whats scaring me a bit

and honestly, having all my powers come from passive skills

is kinda..

lame

power from passives sure

but all of it?

idk

"hey gilga player, you no longer need a shield or a weapon, you got this new passive that makes you deal dmg instead"

thats just kinda weird

[stoic epoch]

Again, if that's what he wants to dedicate development hours towards more power to him.

I still laugh about that day 1 beta reveal

We were all like "+dex? Really?"

[umbral glade]

i am bringing this up to ask the question "should it be this way"

[stoic epoch]

And Dangy was all like, "it'll be fine guys, go test it"

[elfin rampart]

Unless there is a bond that says "Your gear stats is transferred to your pet", no. I'm not ok with passives doing it all

[stoic epoch]

And we were all like, "lolwut?"

[umbral glade]

tbh, i'd much rather take the improved AI and the Valhallan Dissonance on player now
and then wait another month or two for a bigger rework

[last bane]

dex is quite good, your pet'll miss less
And you'll evade more

[umbral glade]

ad 25% pet act to base beo and beoA as a bandaid if need be

[stoic epoch]

Yeah, but in Phoenix?

[umbral glade]

yea having one 40% chance per fight to get A (one) temp buff

[last bane]

best support pet, BeoH is happy

[stoic epoch]

OK, you're right, BeoH would benefit.

[umbral glade]

25% based off of BeroH's super low base dex

as in, still less than base line deity

[last bane]

it...strange when me, BeoA+Tamer, pass 1-3 moves a row without my Cactus act .-.

[umbral glade]

well with skadi he has 100%

[last bane]

agree, but in towers it too much time to cast id, i'll die faster

[umbral glade]

oh, i would never use cactus in towers

its horrible

[last bane]

so who instead? fjarl?

[umbral glade]

fjalar when you have dex^ and or crit

i personally just use fenrir for the most part

i swap to lindworm on endboss

if the middle boss is weak i stay on fenrir, if its tanky and i have dex, i swap to fjalar at that point

[last bane]

Fenrir? why?

[umbral glade]

i never die from having now ward, i can only die from my hp dropping to 0 through ward of ortanite

fenerir heals you

also i use spiked shield as my main skill

fenrir buffs atk^^

so i do like 20k dmg per hit, 50% chance to do it on 2 enemies

fjalars damage outside of aerial barrage also isnt great, especially when you dont use mimics to buff atk^^

[last bane]

looks like non-beo way of cleaning towers..

[umbral glade]

i am so tanky that i dont need to play around defensives

and i dont have anything better to do

So i either use defic channel when i know fights are long (pegasus, fallen deity, 5 dragons, fallen heretic)

or i just do Ward of Ortanite -> Chained Shield until combat is over

[last bane]

i wanna see it, what about make some video for youtube?

[umbral glade]

if i had a magic "pet does more dmg" channel i woulda do it

https://youtu.be/p-LCU6pZgi8

this is before i unlocked chained shield

and i have like 40k more ward now

(on live, not beta)

i dont have a tower besides a 10f atm

[last bane]

BeoA?

[umbral glade]

yea

[last bane]

ooff

[umbral glade]

again, damage is much higher with chained shield now

those hydras are floor 41

[last bane]

i see, but...deity a bit more difficult & long mob

[umbral glade]

ehh

fenrir 1 shots the small dudes

i do too when i have deific channel and temp atk^^

but using fenrir is me optimizing for safety and "dont pay attention while watching youtube"

i am sure there are better dmg options

let me see if i find a deity on a low floor

[last bane]

Okay
btw, Chain Shield can crit?

[umbral glade]

no

its the gilga hercules 2 target spiked shield

[last bane]

Okay, than Ara-vesta-2 only my way(

There is a strong lack of a quick swap of at least 2-3 different pets in the tower(

[umbral glade]

i'm uploading a random floor 1 fight for comparison

just takes a few min, stupid high quality screen recording

https://youtu.be/7ViCuZ9fnNs but this is moving offtopic now so lets keep it at that

[hasty knoll]

I'm a little speechless on this one -

For point 1, no, amities did not start as a Beo buff. Follower gear was not intended to be class specific.

For point 2, it sounds like you are suggesting the summoner started as a Beo buff? Where did that come from?

For point 3, again, this is an active beta. If seeing the work-in-progress is making you nervous, I'd recommend waiting until the end result. Remember, we've got a number of classlines and projects to balance equally, so we won't have an update here daily.

You've got a studio that reads every line you write. To say we're neglecting (or gaslighting?) will do nothing but add friction to the valhallan community/studio relationship. We're working darn hard here.

[umbral glade]

Every line? Damn i am sorry for writing so much nonsense 😟

[rugged glade]

Many of us are very grateful for all the work you are willing to accomplish on our class. Sadly, discussions here can become a bit passionate. Heated up between comparison with other classes, emotional load and people tending to assert things based on their opinions alone seen as everyone's

[manic nimbus]

To answer odies question (i wanted to reply directly but i cant seem to find it again) I believe adding "pet power" to bonds is more beneficial in the long run than amities

We never know which amities can arise in the future and it would be a pity if we could not take advantage of them

[hasty knoll]

Thanks - heated discussion and emotions are fine (and certainly not unique to this classline)

[manic nimbus]

Perhaps we could be awarded a new passive called Valhallan Roar 👀

[hasty knoll]

I'd say the suggestions above are a little beyond heated up

[hasty knoll]

Will settle on Valhallan Rawr

For the scene kids

[manic nimbus]

I will take it right away 🤣

[stoic epoch]

Valhallan UwU

[rugged glade]

It's a little off-topic since it's not directly about Valhallan changes, but the dedication of the team it's what convince me to make you one of the two Patreon I can pay for, so yeah. Please keep going, I'm sure many of us will find future Valhallan's steps very interesting and enjoyable

[hasty knoll]

Appreciate your support!

[quaint maple]

Hi guys - just reading through a little - let's remember to aim for productivity and constructive conversation. Odie is currently spending a lot of time on things for Valhallans in this patch, and spent some time here yesterday trying to discuss it with people.

When we respond with strong negativity it really takes the wind out of the sails when folks are working really hard.

Let's try do a little better. Slamming efforts isn't the solution - providing clear and constructive options that the other users can get on board with and the studio can read through, is.

[stoic epoch]

We appreciate the efforts to make things better going forward.

While the comments you're referencing are negative in nature, please try to see them for what they are: frustration.

Beo hasn't been in a great place for a long time, and I think it's understandable that a few of us have become disillusioned with the state of the class.

I think things have been kept mostly positive throughout.

[quaint maple]

We wouldn't be trying here if not for an active acknowledgement of frustrations 🙂

I'll have to hold strong on us trying to collectively aim for more constructive language than some of the sentiments shared above

Not all, but definitely some

[last bane]

Sorry for our (my) expression, it's just here was already so many suggestions, ideas, examples, options...without an answer, we just don't know what to expect
But everyone is united by one thought that the Beowulfs are outsiders among the other classes.
And we don't want to miss the chance to make the Beowulfs great again.

[quaint maple]

There's active efforts still ongoing, the beta is not finished. Let's just try to avoid unnecessary harsh language that only adds to friction - will make this whole process unfun for everyone involved 🙂

To reiterate, we would not be here right now, discussing and dedicating valuable development time to working on this stuff if we did not hear you guys or care. We do, I promise 🙂

I'll give you all an example of something the realmshifter crowd did that was a really clear way to provide clear, direct and followable feedback. Have a look at this post:
#1097566876395118632 message

Maybe collectively you guys could do similar. It would be a nicer experience on both ends, I'd say!

Regardless, the devs are still working. Let's not belt them around during 😉

Thanks all!

[lime barn]

Outsider on beo but one of the people who started that in realm, suggest a few 5-6 beos get together separately and model out different vectors and then get the broader beo community to buy-in, and then present it to NF so it’s way more linear in nature

Unfortunately the free for all nature of this channel is great for ad hoc comments but full on analysis and presentation of ideas is really hard

[stoic epoch]

He wants a Beo manifesto.

[lime barn]

Food for thought, no cat in this fight

[quaint maple]

No, not asking for a manifesto. Just encouraging cooperation and collective thoughts when folks think the mark has been missed

[hasty knoll]

Just to add two more points:

• There are only 2 of us at the studio participating here. We can't set the expectation that we'll respond to all ideas shared here - that just isn't feasible
• This is a balance patch - suggesting reworks to the core of the class is weeks to months of work. We understand there may be qualms with how the class is designed, but core reworks would be out of scope for this balance patch

Frustration is understood - all classlines have felt it plenty over the years, at different intervals

But we can always be productive

[umbral glade]

(BeoAuriga perspective ahead)

Currently it does not feel good if I get a shiny new weapon in a progression based RPG and it is.. a small change in my damage output. And its not a small increase compared to my old weapon, it is a small increase compared to not using a weapon.
Yes defensive weapons are great, I like using them, but I would like good offensive options like other classes.

The class is lacking damage, but the idea of adding a new passive that fixes the classes damage problems on its own leaves a bad taste in my mouth, before it even makes it to a playable beta state.
Does it increase my damage to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O42rT9f4v0Y) level? (yes, some of the damage here will be nerfed by the same patch and its very heavy on the usage of consumables, its just a recent BeoH example)

That would require seemingly absurd numbers, but those numbers can't really rely on my gear, given that gear in its current state barely has any influence on my pet's damage output and you said BIG gear changes are not coming for now.
So all this power would be from Bestial Bonds?

At this point I think we would need to ask if one passive should triple my damage output. Should the class be able to output that amount of damage in our defensive gear or even boosting gear? (AMorri on live takes me around ~7 minutes, this video is ~1min, but he has ~30 AL on me, so i think a 3x increase for this example is fair)
Based on the first blueprints for Beastial Bonds, does every pet family triple my damage output?

I am not sure, but that just sounds unrealistic.

And that exact conundrum is what many of us are voicing our concerns about.

Yes, our damage output should not be as high as purely offensive classes, especially since we can do offense through our pet and defence through our player character, at the same time. But that still leaves the gap wide open.
And this is based on raw potential output, before mentioning the pet based playstyles RNG hurdles, like the seemingly random skill selection of pets.
Current users of the pet playstyle see the difference in power levels between the playstyles and we are not sure if this current approach will bring us on the level of player damage classes.

And I say that as somebody that LIKES the idea behind Bonds and the unique things it can allow. I am just not sure it will or should "fix" our lack of damage.

[summer gulch]

This round of OR feels very friendly to beo 🙂

I'm 3 down ez, and 3 left that arnt difficult or tedious to me

(On topic? >beo?)

[umbral glade]

sir, this is a beta talk

[summer gulch]

Soz

[umbral glade]

but that just happens, some classes dont like certain bosses (parry 🥲)

[last bane]

(tamer has Stop-Call for pet)

[summer gulch]

Idk if I experience parry in its true form. Like I sometime fight pvprs that have CA but my pet never triggers it? Same with baldr (maybe bc low hp?)

Then balin exist and I'm like nice, 99999 dmg

[umbral glade]

i've been hit by a 140k dmg parry from Baldr in a tower, so it does work

[summer gulch]

I avoid high baldr bc the ads hurt through my unoptimized gear >all purple hp, no def 😦

[sick tinsel]

The problem of Beowulf (Auriga) is the underwhelming damage compared to other classes.
The closest class with that problem is Summoner, but they have tool called Pact that allows to interact with its summons.
Should we propose and "Bond" type skill and spell ?
Like you can inflict damage from player by using the Follower stats ?

Another problem, if Bestial Bond should compensate for the damage gap between Beo and others in late game, I'm afraid that Beo will become an absurd stat monster in early t10.
So a fixed +X% dmg is a no go.
But I'm working on adding a Converting stat passive : "Convert X% Att to your follower"

I didn't have much feedback from people, it's hard to know if I'm in the right path ...

[sage umbra]

For now you have my support in everything you said on this channel

[rugged glade]

Another problem, if Bestial Bond should compensate for the damage gap between Beo and others in late game, I'm afraid that Beo will become an absurd stat monster in early t10.

Thus far, we have try to keep Bestial Bond bonus in a linear growth. But if only BeoA can have BB at the third lvl, it could bring a huge bonus on what the class is missing.
It should avoid to break early T10 experience since it's difficult to gain a T10 Celestial Class in early T10

That being say, the point made by @umbral glade on not be rewarded for finding cool stuff is very true. Since farming items is such a bid deal in this game, it should have impact on BeoA as well.

What people think of replacing the double act chance of Auriga passive with "taking X% of player's Att and Mag" ? It would be an offense capability less random and more connected to player's growth ?

[sick tinsel]

and doublecast become a Bestial Bond for magical follower

[rugged glade]

Sounds good to me

[sick tinsel]

But only for BeoA ?

[rugged glade]

In fact, I just realized something. Maybe Auriga passive isn't the right one to change here.

Maybe Ascension Synergy should change ? I mean, it exists only for scaling up pet damage with player's general lvl in the game. The "scaling value" here is player's ascension, but player's Att/Mag could do the job just fine.
Both of them make pet grow stronger, both of them are rewarding ascending (since it gives more Att/Mag to player, so more Att/Mag transferred to the pet). Could be balanced by the % of Att/Mag transferred

Both normal Beowulf and BeoA have it. And if it's not enough for BeoA, this reworked passive could have a second lvl, like the lvl 1 is 30% Att/Mag, the second one 50% (totaly placeholder numbers)

Only problem with that, it makes the early Beowulf better

[noble stag]

So far what I'm seeing is beos want more ways to progress and get more powerful as they play more outside of ascension, but the current solution is bonds which are a passive you get when you unlock beo, so that's not happening

[last bane]

Guys, we have a wonderful gear with a bonus to pet stats
All we need is to bring it to mind, so that the increase in damage would be worth the loss of ward and defenses

[rugged glade]

I'm not sure to understand what you said 🤔
Actually stuff with stats bonus on pet isn't satisfying to raise up the amount of pet damage.
So unless a rework on stuff bringing pet bonus (and it would be cool + Fomorian event started to do it), we should aiming to gain power of normal stuff, don't we ?

[blazing hull]

new tab for beo, allowing you to gear up your pet

[rugged glade]

Would be cool, but already said as out of scope for a balance patch, so ... x)
But we can move forward to other solutions like some proposed above (or way above, this thread is huge)

[last bane]

I mean that we already have pet stat gear, it just need some rework or upgrade, to make these pet stat more...significant
when +15% on these gear gives really +15% to pet's damage
right now it gives even less than half or third than expected

[rugged glade]

Thanks, I see your point more clearly now n_n Sorry for the need of explanations

I would say a more powerful pet stats gear would also do the job, yes. It's not what I prefer, because we don't have a lot of gear granting such bonus, and it could means that NF will have to create more of them in the future.
But it's definitely a way to solve the damage issue on normal Beo and BeoA I think

[blazing hull]

ths is because pet/summon stats bonus are additive, stacking them have less impact at high values (which is the case at base for GS or Beo) meaning those stats are more valuable when play a non-pet class which don't have other bonus like that.

So it's not really about the gear, it's about the calculation of it.

One way to chance this would be to make it so gear pet stat is still additive, but then you multiply it to base class pet stat (which would be higher for beo).

exemple (with random false number) with 3 items 15% pet stats

fully additive (current) :
any : (1 +.15 + .15 + .15) * pet stats = 1.45 * pet stats
beo : (2 +.15 + .15 + .15) * pet stats = 2.45 * pet stats

fully multiplicative :
any : 1 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * pet stats = 1.52 * pet stats
beo : 2 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * pet stats = 3.04 * pet stats

hybrid :
any : 1 * (1 + .15 + .15 + .15) * pet stats = 1.45 * pet stats
beo : 2 * (1 + .15 + .15 + .15) * pet stats = 2.90 * pet stats

[last bane]

I would rather take the current value (Beo+tamer+ascensions) as the pet's base stat value and then influence it with equipment

[rugged glade]

Side note to the debate, but I think we could start to have pin messages listing issues/ideas of solution ?

Like :

[quick explaination]

*Ideas*
**A)** [text]

**B)** [text]
...```

[blazing hull]

especially since pinned comments are all old iteration of bond passives

[rugged glade]

I'll try with one about what we talked about this morning, don't hesitate to correct me '^^

Damage on BeoO and BeoA

Damage on those classes relying heavily on pet is first very good without much invest (early T10) then blocked by a glass ceiling

Ideas
A) Stuff adding pet bonus. Not enough as it is today, we could change the bonus formula : #1097570738086621295 message and ~1 beyond

B) Transfer some of the player Att/Mag to the pet. Three main proposals : the new Bestial Bond passive bringing enough firepower to solve this issue, a rework of Auriga passive or a rework of Ascension Synergy passive : #1097570738086621295 message and ~10 posts beyond

C) BeoO : Adding a better firepower on Valhallan Dissonnance, for it increase both pet's and player's damage (see post just below)

Updates
26/04 : Stats transfer exploited with BB. #1097570738086621295 message

It would be edited to keep trace of debate, but if it's okay for you we can ask to pin it

[stoic epoch]

For BeoO, with regard to your comment, Odie wants us doing damage in addition to the pet. The Valhallan Dissonance change helps in this regard but doesn't provide enough throughput.

My suggestion is increasing the bonus stats from VD redlining to players to help close the gap.

That, hopefully coupled with Bonds, should get us started fixing BeoO.

[rugged glade]

You are right, proposals above do not include more firepower for the player on BeoO. Maybe I should have make separate posts for better solutions splitting ? 🤔

What do we do with VD II ? I think BeoA have it. Is it ok to give it to BeoO ? Should we give BeoA something in return ?

[stoic epoch]

I'd just add another bullet point.

[stoic epoch]

VD 2 gives the player the same stats as VD, at least I think that's what Inarin said. So no benefit to player damage over VD 1.

[rugged glade]

Oh ? What's the difference between the two then ? 😮

[umbral glade]

VD is 1.5x on the olayer at max and more than that on the pet (iirc 2.25x ?)

The player stats should be the sam on 1&2 iirc

[quaint maple]

Thank you - solid effort, and productive way to hold these conversations 🙂

[umbral glade]

Another topic for your list: how much power should a singular passive hold? Is Bestial Bonds alone something that should fix pet based builds damage from underwhelming to competetive. Does that much power make sense? And if yes, why does a passive have much much more impact on our damage than equipment.
(Please feel free to rewrite this, you are much better with words than me)

[stoic epoch]

Yalalala summed it up. Basically, the VD 1 is 2x pet stats, 1.5 player stats. VD 2 is 2.25 pet stats, but still 1.5 player stats.

So if the goal is increasing player damage on BeoO, giving us VD 2 will only give us more pet damage.

Which helps with our damage issues overall, but Odie seems to want the extra BeoO damage to come from the player, not the pet.

[umbral glade]

Base Beob could really use a signature attack skill. They have hybrid scaling attacks and gaits/calls but nothing screams "fight with your pet" unless you lean into hybrid. A skill going "deals bonus damage if both you and your pet attacked" or something could be nice

[last bane]

I just compared BeoH and BeoA in the other world ... and it's strange, initially it seems that BeoA is a marathon runner, and BeoH is a sprinter: The first one can buff for a long time, but at the same time, DPS is stable and survivability is maximum, and as a result, every 7-10 Fjarl can crit for 1kk+ when BeoH crits 1-1.5k every turn. Every. Turn.
I don’t have the best build for BeoH, I know that it possible squeeze much more damage out of it

[polar locust]

What is VD in this context?

[stoic epoch]

It's been suggested many times before in various incarnations. My guess is a bespoke skill is too much development time and therefore outside the scope of a balance patch.

[stoic epoch]

Valhallan Dissonance

[rugged glade]

I think I'll do another pin post about Bestial Bound, then link the two. It makes more sense to me, since BB is a whole new "core feature" and the main star of the Valhallan balance patch. Is that good for you ?

(Also more practical for listing all issues/proposals around BB)

[umbral glade]

Sure

I just question the raw numbers bonds would need to close the gap between pet and player based damage, especially since our gear only plays a minimal part in our pwts offensive power
(Scroll up some for a wall of text regarding that)

From the sound of it, i am afraid it will make Beo the "lol just play beo to deal the same damage as me but with farming gear" class

[wicked sandal]

Vd1 is 90% stats, vd2 is 110% stats. Both give 2.25x stats to pet and 1.5x stats to beo himself when at 1hp

[rugged glade]

Bestial Bound

The new core feature of the Valhallan patch. It is wildely well-received, but there is questions about what it should do, not do, and how.
Bestial Bound is often wrote "BB" in this post or related

Ideas
A) About pet variety. Until now, bonus added by BB are not enough for bringing more variety in pet used by Beo in combat. That being said, even if we would appreciate more diversity on that topic, it's not a feature as mandatory as others.
Adding non-combat utily in BB (like view distance) is a good step.
You can find more proposals on BB bonus in pinned posts

B) What BB should resolve ? ||Since Valhallan Dissonance grants Def and Res to the player, the main issue is damage dealt. See here : #1097570738086621295 message
As we appreciate the bonus bring by BB, it's static and not scaling with player's growth so far. Thus we would say that BB alone should not solve this issue. That way, early player will not be OP and more mature players could be more fierce in their dealt damage||
B) seems to be checked by linking BB potential to player potential, see first update

Updates
26/04 : Exploring stats transfer for BB. #1097570738086621295 message

C) BeoO / BeoA balance. Since BeoO has much more Att/Mag than BeoA due to Hybrid Monster II and less base stats, the same % of stats transferred to the pet bring very different values, the weaker one being on the BeoA side. We are concerned about this being too weak on BeoA at the end, yet further tests should be conducted on this (BB transfer not being included on beta yet)
One possible way to resolve this would be a fourth level of BB, for BeoA (BeoA passives + Tamer?), with a higher % of transferred stats to roughly give the same final amount than BeoO
Comparaison BeoO / BeoA : #1097570738086621295 message

[rugged glade]

I tried to resume your point in B), feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[umbral glade]

I'd like to hear some other opinions on this without the "i want to be strong" bias.

Should a singular passive skill, that as far as we know needs NO building around (unlike something like The Dorado, which wants to stack Dex), hold so much raw power that it makes pet based Beo competetive with other gear reliant classes, while gear has little to no offensive impact on Beo's pet.

[hasty knoll]

BB Level 3: Physical channeling. Your attack stat influences your follower's attack stat

[last bane]

How much? 100%? :)

[hasty knoll]

100% if you'd like a nerf shortly after 😉

[umbral glade]

That sounds great.

[last bane]

swaaash, i'm coming!

[umbral glade]

Does this work on something like crit? As in can i tune my gear for crit chance to make my bird crit more?

[sage umbra]

BB level 3 could add a abilities

[hasty knoll]

BB Level 3 currently does add abilities (not all live in beta yet)

[last bane]

Looking forward to the test +__+

[umbral glade]

I think it's very important for gear to play a big part of your damage output in this style of game, so thats great to hear

[rugged glade]

It was proposed a bit ago (in the last 24h I think) but it would lock all BB lvl 3 to one/few bonus. The point wasn't to have one bonus by pets family ?

[umbral glade]

That cant be all since Mag based pets exists

[sage umbra]

I think we can aim more precisely for more diversity

[umbral glade]

I am certainly looking forward to a less placeholdy version of bonds to discuss that more, we are kinda echo chambering on a old version

[sage umbra]

I dare not ask when we will see the next adjustments

[umbral glade]

Is this the correct time to ask for wyvern speed 3 (and 4?) on the baha/beo celestials

[sage umbra]

Ho yes

[umbral glade]

But that "your atk -> pet attack" thing sounds great. Happy to see more of my item choices having an impact

[sick tinsel]

That allows new Spec synergies

[sick tinsel]

That's a solid YES.

[umbral glade]

If base beo can access it in the final iteration it also means being abble to go hybrid and pet at the same time with it

[sick tinsel]

Imagine Beowulf Sequencer, using Ymir and casting Ultimas

+15% mag being relevant for the pet through stat boosting Beowulf magic

[umbral glade]

So the beo beaststriking while the pet fights with him -> good class identity

[sage umbra]

I visually use SS3 in raid,I feel that we will be able to discover many new styles of play

[rugged glade]

Welp

[sick tinsel]

Stat conversion might be the solution

[rugged glade]

I'll update both pinned-post to incorporate Odie's message. It should help to step forward on this two topics I think ?

[umbral glade]

It sounds like a new version is live or eill be soon

[stoic epoch]

Hype

[stoic epoch]

Laughs in 70% status immunity.

[spring elm]

Adding skills to pets is very likely to be a demerit in a lot of cases if not done properly.

People already complain about Fjalar using a less appealing skill too often, now imagine every pet getting random skills to dilute their move-set, possibly completely unrelated to their purpose because of arbitrary "family".

Even adding insane stuff like Ultima or DC could be a demerit to a pet chosen only for it's physical attacks like Fjalar on BeoA.

[umbral glade]

its already been tuned to 7% haha

[umbral glade]

giving fjalar another move on the power level of aerial barrage means its less likely to use evasive strikes, so thats just a win

if the moves are bad, its of course not good, but i think this is a good thing overall

things like very scary skeleton with another hard hitting move could be a very valid pet

[warm finch]

Yeah I know, but it's such a good screencap and I lost the opportunity to use it ahah

[umbral glade]

[stoic epoch]

It was retuned within 24 hours.

[stoic epoch]

The lead up made it even funnier. Someone was like, "what if we find problems?"

And Odie was like, "No problems"

And I was like, "Oh hey, 70% status resist as a lvl 1 Bond!"

And Odie's like, "That's a problem."

[umbral glade]

petition to implement VD changes to live now, i wanna exp farm with it :(

[last bane]

it would be nice, but you sure its final decision?

[hushed helm]

Beo hydrus raider here. With berserk 2,3 and dc and double dmg buffs it crits 700k every turn. But its highly gear dependent

[umbral glade]

i think the VD changes are good as they are, 1.5x for players seems fair since we redline but our pets also get a big boost compared to RS as an example

with the whole "channel your atk stats to increase your pet stats" thing odie teased, VD giving us offensive stats doesnt feel out of place anymore

so that and "smart ai helps pets chose skills that don't get immune'd feel good as they are

[last bane]

If it releasable - start asking, i'll support with vote

[umbral glade]

(i would still hope for a Smart Ai <--> Snotra/Gunnr interaction down the line)

i dont think we will getting stuff already, it was more of a joke than a serious ask

[last bane]

i was BeoH - Cataphract, but with hat +20% crit.dmg & amity +40% crit.dmg

[stoic epoch]

I think Hydrus is in a pretty good place, even after the crit adorn nerfs.

It's BeoO and BeoA that need tweaks.

[last bane]

he needs kind of "Valhalla's rage", to have higher chance to move under stun/frozen(And so on) debuffs

[umbral glade]

that teased BB is great for Base Beo tbh. Going full hybrid stats with a lute and beast striking with it sounds really nice

combine that with Gorynych, Son of Mountains

he holy/dark blights and maintains your ward

you use a holy/dark enchanted weapon and verse and/or a hybrid scaling amnity

[blazing hull]

what about beoA/swash with fjalar

[umbral glade]

thats the fun part, it seems to be a option

options are nice

[wicked sandal]

Verse is an elementless spell and as such does not benefit from blights/weapon enchant

[wicked sandal]

Base beo would probably do this better cause it has better base stats and hybrid monster, unlike A

if the attack conversion is good enough then swash can be played yeah

[umbral glade]

ah, thats just my BeoA brain thinking too far ahead lmao

[wicked sandal]

you can even use mage gear like baldr and keep pretty good ward

[umbral glade]

ymir with heretic robe and fallen sky shoes lets go

i really hope arisen glashtyn gets something juicy

i want that thing to be good

its like my favorite follower by concept

but idk how that would work - AoE debuff would still make it require 2 turns instead of 1 from cactus
dark damage still runs into immunity troubles frequently
debuff application at start of combat could work maybe?

[stoic epoch]

If we're not so dependent on the pets for all our damage it would open up some builds, maybe.

Hybrid lute with a dragon book offhand and beast strikes crit build could be fun.

[rugged glade]

I think @sick tinsel have one like that, pretty strong on the videos. BeoH

[stoic epoch]

I'm thinking BeoO.

BeoH is pretty much fine as is, minus some wishlisty stuff like Steadfast, which I don't know if Odie would give us.

[wicked sandal]

You can make your own steadfast with gorgon eyes and ymir vritra charm

[stoic epoch]

True.

[umbral glade]

especially with baldr and phoenix gear being good items as well

[stoic epoch]

Toss up Bryn and just let the Lindwurm go ham in the background

Maintain DC throughout

DC and Bloodshift

Maybe give base beo a passive like saboteur, but instead of a defense debuff it has a chance to apply and outgoing damage multiplier for us and the pet.

If combined player + pet dps is the shtick

[sick tinsel]

Beaststrikes sucks.
Beaststrike IV is the true damaging hybrid skill

[stoic epoch]

What gives Beaststrike IV?

[umbral glade]

baha H

[summer gulch]

Not really suggesting this but

Chain buffing

I use MM it pops gunnr or other buff etc etc

Same turn

[arctic marlin]

In fairness of amity Convo earlier - 15% follower stats vs 30% summon stats vs 40% crit damage. That definitely does not scream balance, as this is a conversation about balancing

And I'm unbiased here as I dont use pets for damage

[sick tinsel]

especially when follower stat are additionnal and crit damage are multiplier

stronger and more impactful

[hasty knoll]

If referring to yesterday's convo, it was not about whether the amity offerings were balanced. It was about whether amities should take the place of bonds. My argument was that having access to both was better

[arctic marlin]

So the focus would be: given the imbalance in amity options for follower focused damage, make up for it with built in buffs to the class

Seems fine👍 allows you to use different amities and not lock in to one

[umbral glade]

I don't think he is disagreeing with that, i think he was arguing for them to be on a similar power level instead of their current power levels (15% follower stats vs 40% crit dmg / 30% element damage / basic attack dmg / more than one of those stats)

[arctic marlin]

Basically yeah. People seem to think BeoO/BeoA underperform. I dont play either rn so i cant attest. I just see amities as an obvious area where other playstyles jump way ahead. So if keeping follower stat amity at 15% is the move, need to make up for it somrwhere

[hasty knoll]

To sum up the convo:

• Yes, we could could buff the amity to provide the needed power. This would reduce amity option to the player and potentially create another Tamer/Beastmaster situation. Ultimately, this reduces options for the player
• We could give the needed power via a new means, retaining the Amity options available to the player

[umbral glade]

Are there good damage options for the play style right now? I just auto equip positive status effect every time I dont need Ward turns at combat start

the thought of using pet stats never crossed my mind

We have utility and defence options, no doubt. Other build types also have offensive options - pet based builds thou, i am not sure

I should say "good options"

[hasty knoll]

no, there are not good damage options for the play style right now. That would be why we're doing what we're doing

[umbral glade]

I am talking about just the aminity slot right now

[arctic marlin]

I will always vote in favor of more variety👍

[umbral glade]

I am more than happy with the latest BB infos - its literally what I asked for

[hasty knoll]

do you want to give up the ability to utilize all current and future amity effects to fill the damage gap?

or would you like the damage gap filled elsewhere and retain the ability to utilize any current and future amity effects?

[umbral glade]

I am not talking in absolutes. I want a damage option for the slots, not a "must include or lose half your damage" situation

If i had to pick an option, i would 100% agree with option 2

but I don't think this has to be a black or white thing

[hasty knoll]

current damage options available to followers in amities:

1. follower stats (albeit low situationally)
2. faction damage bonus
3. follower act rate (albeit indirect)
4. elemental damage boosters

in a bestial bond world, these can then be stacked with bestial bond offerings.

if we solved the damage gap via an amity, availability to the above is lost

[umbral glade]

This is the difference between not a utility amnity and our best damage option (15% pet stats)

[hasty knoll]

yes, it is well documented that the amity slot is low. we are weighing solutions

[umbral glade]

Do you think that number is worth the investment of the slot?

That was all the comment above was about

Bringing it to attention - if its on your radar, that's fine by me

[hasty knoll]

all of my points above were inferring the damage gap could be solved by buffing that amity

the question is whether that's the best approach

[umbral glade]

I still represent the mindset that investing my item slots in damage should be an option.
This has been addressed by the Bond you teased earlier, for now it feels like that Slot is still lacking, at least when delving into the "grass is greener on the other side" thought.
But if you are saying you intent to handle it in other ways I will trust the process

[arctic marlin]

@umbral glade the question is, would you rather have another area get the damage buff or be locked to one amity getting the buff. I think most would prefer ability to choose different amities

[umbral glade]

I just think that question is not a simple yes or no question

I do not want all my power to be locked behind a amnity slot

But I would like an option to invest that slot and get returns from it that feel worth the effort

[arctic marlin]

You already do though with the plethora of amity options

Id rather have the missing %stat follower boost in that amity just be flat added to the class

Knowing that our stat amity is lower

[umbral glade]

Maybe I am to invested in that thought, as I said, I trust the process enough to change my opinion as we go further down that road.

[arctic marlin]

That way we can pick other OP stuff like Parapet / positive status duration etc

[umbral glade]

This would be better for the power level of the class, but would it feel better for a "class main" that wants to dedicate all his resources to archive something?

[polar locust]

I would like it be more around the new bestial bonds, then you can use other amities

[umbral glade]

I like the thought of gear having more influence over my performance for a class that was always carried by its class passives power

Again, this has been addressed by the teaser earlier, so I get my wish

Maybe I am having a "wants his cake and eat it too" thing

[spring elm]

Feels weird to reinforce the "issue" of completevlack of dependance on gear and drops to increase damage.

[umbral glade]

I also do not intent to be the only person speaking on this, having more people give their opinions would be great

[noble stag]

"Amity slots should provide variety"

Meanwhile 40% crit

If amity slots were for a slight boost and for some qol, they wouldn't give that insane of increase

[umbral glade]

That could be another discussion - is the power level of other amnity rolls too high instead of ours being too low.

[hushed helm]

And amitys are random af. You can Use 100 memnonics and dont get the desired one.

[noble stag]

Well I'd say 40% crit amity sets the bar way too high, if it was gone you wouldnt complain about amities not providing damage options

[noble stag]

The community figured out ways to get amities you want, and while it's also random atleast you don't have to use 100 amities

[hushed helm]

True

[umbral glade]

I mean, this thing exists somewhere https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/811270018661613627/1063938002121936967/IMG_8687.jpg

Its hard to default to a defensive or utility options when people can use those (yes, its a ultra rare outlier)

[summer gulch]

Wouldn't amity allowing to pet dmg be the same as how Ultima get a big buff from amity and gem and bulwark buffing?

[umbral glade]

Ultima will be changes for that

Bulwark and similar effects will buff it less

[noble stag]

No, it would literally just make amities give the same amount of buffs to beo as it does other classes

[summer gulch]

Fair

[arctic marlin]

Or, to odies point, buff elsewhere

[lime barn]

uhhhh the answer to odie's question seems like a obvious "no let's not use amity to solve this damage problem" because that literally pigeon holes every beo into a very specific hole that requires you to hunt at 3AM in the dark for a high roll amity, not to mention the thousands who don't actually know a discord for this game exists unofficially

[arctic marlin]

Do you want to be amity locked?

[hasty knoll]

Again, yes, great amities exist. The conversation is about whether amities are the right place to bridge the power gap of Beo

[summer gulch]

I'm def pro amity for pets

[umbral glade]

Again, that is not a yes or no question.

[noble stag]

Not at all, beo and GS need proper scaling with gear

[hasty knoll]

here is what we'll be testing next

[hushed helm]

No

[summer gulch]

WHOA

[noble stag]

Also about amity locking, literally everyone is amity locked

[hasty knoll]

it is very much a yes or no question

[lime barn]

it's literally a yes/no question lol... because that's how binary questions work......

[summer gulch]

I like it, I feel 15 might be low but balance I don't understand as a player vs you as a dev

[hasty knoll]

40% crit is of course popular - especially with crit builds, which of course are very popular. but they are not as rampant outside of the meta

[arctic marlin]

Would you stop hitting people with the truth all the time dang man 😂

[umbral glade]

More complex answers exist. No it should not force every player into the slot, but a option on the power level of, lets say, positive status duration, could exist in the same space

[lime barn]

woop woop truth police

so then that answer is NO?

because if it exists, that DOES force player into the slot

you have a circular reference situation in your argument

[umbral glade]

are you forced into status effect duration amnities because it is powerful atm?

[noble stag]

Ofc noone wants to be locked into one option, but how the game works is everyone is already locked into a best option

[lime barn]

in certain builds 100% i am

i'm forced into duration, crit, or accessory

[noble stag]

Yes there are different best option for different stuff, but that's besides the point

[umbral glade]

Okay, then drop it down a level

[noble stag]

Nothing wrong with that and what odie is testing rn seems to be a really cool fix, amities are a different thing

[umbral glade]

Again, I will just wait for the process - its okay, I can be convinced that my train of thought it wrong here

[noble stag]

I think we all got what you mean

[arctic marlin]

The bb3 idea is cool lets roll with it

[hasty knoll]

It is being suggested that additonal damage/power is needed

If this need were to be addressed with an Amity, then it would be needed to wear it. Amity locked.

If this need were to be resolved elsewhere, then player is free to use other amities. Not amity locked.

If it is not a need, then it is not a yes/no question. But it seems to be a need, hence the balance effort.

[summer gulch]

So beoA can get new bond 3 and not beoH, but beoH would benefit from new bond 3 more?

[umbral glade]

The next iteration of bonds seems to be something we can base the next discussions upon

[regal bramble]

I agree, what my eyes just saw brightened my day

[lime barn]

tbh i think when any game dev is like "do you want us to fix it THIS ONE AND ONLY WAY or via a bunch of other ways" i feel like that's a rhetorical question that you choose B so there's bigger flexibility around the solution space

beos already won the big fight, which is something is NEEDED

[noble stag]

BeoH wouldn't benefit more, since beoH doesn't care about it's pets output

[summer gulch]

Oh okay yea

I forgor

[umbral glade]

Those things are a boon for Base Beo thou

the forgotten hero

[noble stag]

No clue what your stance on this is, but the issue if I can even call it that is that beo gets too much power with no gear investment and too little power difference with the best in slot gear

Probably the entire beo community can agreee

[hasty knoll]

scroll up? ^

[umbral glade]

That part is being addressed with the new bonds being influenced by gear

Which is 💯

[sick tinsel]

Interesting, 15% stats conversion with my best weapon would theoratically increase 1/6 of my Cactus Att.

We can increase the number up for a BB Lv.3

Also, pet stat bonus is applied before or after the conversion ?

[umbral glade]

Have the "families" for bonds changed? Reptile strikes seems to be something very specific

[summer gulch]

Just making sure, tamer adds 1.54x stats?

[manic nimbus]

Lovely!

[summer gulch]

I forget all the stat multipliers

[sick tinsel]

Well physical BB, so Lizarr family

[wicked sandal]

+55%, which isn't x1.55

[umbral glade]

Items like Balin drops with Jewels of Creations are another big atk increase

[manic nimbus]

I wonder what Sif's passive skill will be 🧐

[wicked sandal]

cause it's additive with dissonance and stat increases from gear

[wicked sandal]

All of them

[summer gulch]

Wait how do you write this then? Not 1.55x?

Numbers hard

[wicked sandal]

if you have no other sources of pet stats, it's x1.55

[summer gulch]

Oh

[wicked sandal]

beo + tamer would be 90 + 55 = 145, or x2.45

[wicked sandal]

not x1.55 x1.9

[summer gulch]

Oh?

[sick tinsel]

Hands of Selene do their jobs

Fortunately, they have just a -5% nerf att to mag and vice versa

[summer gulch]

Would VD change application to player stays stack with new bond 3?

Probably not

[umbral glade]

Keep in mind the 15% conversion is the first draft - we gotta test it
If its too low it can still be tweaked up

Also we don't know what Reptile Strikes will contribute to the average damage per turn

But that direction of the passive skill is very nice 💪

[arctic marlin]

Yeah i like the ideas and look forward to seeing the eventual damage compete with other classes. Fun factor looks like its back here

[umbral glade]

My fun factor is maxed out atm, feels great suggesting "bonds could add skills" and "your stats could influence your pets stat to open up gear options" and then seeing that screenshot

[stoic epoch]

Sounds like you're advocating an increase to more than 15% shared stat?

[umbral glade]

needs to be tested

hard to say that based on a screenshot

we dont even know what the skill does

[stoic epoch]

Oh, it's not in the beta yet?

My bad, missed that context.

[umbral glade]

he said that its the next build (or something like it)

[stoic epoch]

I thought you guys had already messed with it

[polar locust]

Reptile strikes 🤔

[umbral glade]

we are popping off due to a screesnhot

"reptile strikes" makes me question the follower families we had until now

[stoic epoch]

It's just a name

[umbral glade]

yea

[magic quest]

It's beaststrike but more toxic

[polar locust]

I wonder what pet it is

[stoic epoch]

Almost have to be all of them

If we're being honest

To not limit the options

[umbral glade]

doesnt need to be

defensive pets like golems dont need that

[stoic epoch]

Well, no.

[umbral glade]

keep in mind Base Beo is a thing

so not all pets need to be damage based

[stoic epoch]

I'm very cognizant.

[polar locust]

It would interfere a lot with fjalar aerial barrage?

More skills to use

[umbral glade]

yes but it would also interfere with evasive strikes

which is a upside

if its on the power level of aerial barrage

[stoic epoch]

Is it a skill the pet grants to us, or a skill the pet uses itself?

[umbral glade]

having a more diluted skill pool is good

[polar locust]

It depends if reptile strikes is strong enough and can crit of course

Then i would look at it with other eyes

[umbral glade]

i dont think it will be worse than not having it

and if it is

test it

report "hey this is not cool"

look at how far we have come from the first bestial bonds draft to that screenshot

[polar locust]

Its in the beta already?

[stoic epoch]

Again, are the bond skills used by the pet or the Beo?

Do we know?

[polar locust]

Good question

[umbral glade]

that looks like a pet thing

[polar locust]

I think is more of pet

[umbral glade]

that what I had in my mind all the time

could also be a "why not both" situation

[stoic epoch]

Honestly I'd prefer more control over when it gets used.

[polar locust]

Pokemon intesifies

[umbral glade]

at that point we need to ask, when does "its a pet class" and "its a direct damage class" crosses lines

[stoic epoch]

I mean, Base Beo is apparently being 50/50 as of this beta

[umbral glade]

is selecting your pets move still a pet class or is it just a player damage class by proxy with a pet instead of a skill loadout

[stoic epoch]

I'm fine with the current pet mechanics, but bond skills seem like something the Beo should get.

[umbral glade]

"more control" as in, you select the move or "i can restrict certain moves due to calls/gaits/ai"

[stoic epoch]

"More control" as in Reptile Strikes gets added to the Players' move list and we can use it. The pet will acts on its own.

I understand why you don't want that, you're a BeoA main and you want the pet doing all the heavy lifting.

[umbral glade]

having the pet and the player get the skill could be a thing

[polar locust]

I would like to use more realmstrikes as a beo base, never did the thing of attacking myself in beo, always buffed

[umbral glade]

or sortie or chained shield or spiked shield or mage style with a ymir

many optiosn

[polar locust]

yeah, maybe ultimastrikes when i unlock any celestial class

[elfin rampart]

Thanks a lot for this.
It is the exactly what I tried to mean, before having a bad day.
Thanks a lot Odie for the work, I'm aware of how painful it can be to code additional features, balance these, and then write down the long texts that will be displayed to the player. I sincerely apologize and appreciate the effort from NF.
Shout out to @rugged glade for the clean recompiled data pinned.

[gentle pier]

Here's a suggestion. Make pet stat boosts on items scale with quality.

[last bane]

I was thinking about it, and now have question:
Wouldn't be that Base Beo through this Bound give to pet more Att stat than Beo Auriga only because he have the Hybrid Monster II?

[wicked sandal]

Yes. Though Auriga might still end up with a stronger follower than base overall cause of Auriga's higher follower stat % and the double act chance

Besides, hybrid monster only gives you a good amount of stats if you properly invest into both attack and magic

If you use a pure attack weapon that'll give the same amount of attack to your follower, no matter if you're base or auriga

[last bane]

Doublecast is overrated, too situational and does not always live up to expectations
And the characteristics of the pet (and his final damage) are almost on the same level as the Base Beo

[rugged glade]

The double act chance should not be so easily discarded. On paper, it makes the pet dealing 30% more damage (acting twice 1 turn / 3) 🤔

[umbral glade]

25% but yea

[rugged glade]

25% ? My bad

[last bane]

Just compare the difference

[umbral glade]

25% at 100% dmg can feel bad indeed. I thought about it being a higher % chance but the second hit dealing less dmg

that would suck on lindworm

but feel better for general non raid gameplay

in raids you get enough turns to equal out the 25%

[last bane]

agree, Aerial Barrage & then evasive strikes
nice doudlecast

[rugged glade]

I'm sorry, I forgot if Hydrid Monster already is calculated on this stats summary ?

[last bane]

i mean..pet's doublecast is cooll, i like it
But simple calculating can show that BaseBeo's pet would be more stable & Deal more damage

[last bane]

BeoA hasn't HM2, BaseBao have
The result on screen in same sets

[rugged glade]

Yeah, I mean, are the stats of your BaseBeo already including Hybrid Monster bonus, or should we adding 30% more of Att/Mag displayed ?

[last bane]

already include i guess

[rugged glade]

If a <@&448920498387288094> could pin this one also, please ! n_n

[rugged glade]

I'll update the post about BB to include that issue

[umbral glade]

if it turns out to be an issue, a possible fix would be to increase max level of bonds to 4, give it only to BeoA and only increase the conversion rate

[last bane]

Base beo also have 4 bonds though Tamer

[umbral glade]

they dont stack

it only takes the highest level

[last bane]

Okay

U sure that they don't stack?

[umbral glade]

they didnt so far

test level 1 from god class

and level 1 from tamer

if its level 2 it stacks, if its level 1 it does not

[last bane]

would be better really make 4th bound with convertation for Auriga and decrease amount to 3 max at base Beo

[umbral glade]

we couldnt even test it yetz

we should hold judgement until then

[rugged glade]

Yeah I includedthat too

I'm running out of characters on the post, but does it suits you @last bane ? It's the C)

[last bane]

There was no mention of Hybrid Monster 2 it will cause more fear
My screenshots show stats from regular guns with Vision from Hel

[rugged glade]

I'm sorry I don't understand, could you reformulate ? Since English is not my first language I'm sometimes a bit lost '^^ and I want to be sure to properly transcribe your thoughts on the topic

[summer gulch]

Is veoA thought no HM2

?

[last bane]

BeoO have passive Hybrid Monster 2 that rises stats of att & mag by each other
BeoA haven't this passive, so his stats would be much more lower
That's why if both of them can use Bestial Bond of "Att or Mag conversion to pet" - pet of BeoO will have much more stats than BeoA

[rugged glade]

"BeoO / BeoA balance. Since BeoO has much more Att/Mag than BeoA because of Hybrid Monster II, the same % of stats transferred to the pet bring very different values"

Better ?

[umbral glade]

hybrid monster and due to giving up base stats

[last bane]

Yeap

[umbral glade]

which in return makes hybrid monster even more impactful

[rugged glade]

BeoO / BeoA balance. Since BeoO has much more Att/Mag than BeoA due to Hybrid Monster II and less base stats, the same % of stats transferred to the pet bring very different values,

[summer gulch]

Does beoA also just have bond3?

I though beoH had to work for it

[umbral glade]

base and beoA have 3

beoH cant get it

[summer gulch]

Ooh that pic was beoO

I see now

[last bane]

If the base Beo's pet is stronger than Auriga's pet, no one will take the second one just because of the doublecast
And if you add that the base beo also has immunity to the dragon ...

By the way, the Dissonance of Valhalla in both BeoO/BeoA will still give the same increase in the player's offensive stats...

[summer gulch]

Which adds to bond3 giving bonus to pet?

^testing not in beta yet

I think

[coarse vapor]

hey guys, does anyone know what status changes are active in the updated beta? I have a BeoH on the live server and I couldn't make an accurate comparison of the status changes...

[umbral glade]

status changes?

[rugged glade]

In theory, here : #game-announcements message

And as said here : #game-announcements message , the post linked above will be updated

[coarse vapor]

I had access to this one, but I think it's super out.

[obsidian vector]

I'm with you %100 on this one

I've been trying to say the same thing before

Beo and BeoA aren't powerless, they have a power scaling issue

[coarse vapor]

Improving...

[umbral glade]

have you seen the recent teased images?

[obsidian vector]

Nah

I'm talking about the live

[umbral glade]

well then you are going off of old info

you are in the beta thread talking about the current state of live balance

when one of the main things in the beta is addressing the lack of power in live?

[obsidian vector]

So?

[umbral glade]

its.. pointless? the thing you are complaining about has already been adressed

its the reason this beta exists

[obsidian vector]

There's updates and beta testing because the live has problems.

And I'm talking about the core issue

[umbral glade]

yes, but we are already past that state, talk about the current state of it in the beta

[obsidian vector]

This issue will still be here after beta if no one adresses it?

[umbral glade]

it is --> already <-- addressed

thats the point

[obsidian vector]

Well

[rugged glade]

If you check the pinned messages, you can see Odie teaser about new version of Bestial Bound, transferring stats from the player to the pet for a better damage output ^^

[obsidian vector]

Seems like you haven't past

[umbral glade]

scroll up some, odie posted quite a bunch of things

that was yesterday, before odies new infos

and a write up on the talks of the current state of beta

you are talking about live stuff

consider joining the beta, testing stuff and commenting on that

[rugged glade]

Well actually the transfer of stats is not on beta, I think ? So it is confusing a bit. But we try our best to keep fresh states of progress on main Beo issues, @obsidian vector , you'll find that on pinned messages. one about BB, the other about lack of damage

[obsidian vector]

Dude. You were suggesting dozens of things since the day one. And non of them were solving the core issue of the classline

[umbral glade]

its most likely in the next beta iteration

[obsidian vector]

Even if you follow the state of the beta. If you can't see the core issue no change will fix the issue

That's what I was trying to say

Keep suggesting 1000 new ideas

[umbral glade]

i asked you if you looked at the latest infos, to which you said that you are talking about live, to which i said that you should read about it

[obsidian vector]

I mean, isn't this an ongoing issue even on beta?

As Thelos said, new leaks aren't even added to beta yet

[last bane]

Odie knows that Beo's have problems with pet's damage and trying to solve it by Bestial Bonds

[obsidian vector]

Yeah, it's my mistake to write something that was already confirmed by the officials. But I didn't know they if they were aware or not. Theres like 5000 or so messages here

[hasty knoll]

This has been covered quite a bit, with regards to all non-scaling items. Ultimately, it can be considered a bit destructive as broken/poor would need to be nerfed

[sick tinsel]

but would mean Ornate could get twice stats of the Normal amount

[warm finch]

Depends on the scaling.
Exp giving items aren't x2 on Ornate

Though I think nerfing broken and poor items is fair.

Only swashes use broken and poor gear anyhow

[umbral glade]

besides things like mimic heads and some adornments

[stoic epoch]

Make pet items synergistic, then. Two items with pet stats get a 20% bonus, 3 gets 30%, etc.

[umbral glade]

"this item has better conversion rate for bestial bond"

coulkd balance it with negative def/res/lower ward

[gentle pier]

I don't see an issue with broke and poor being worse than normal. As we almost all immediately dismantle those qualities anyways. Unless you are swashing, which you wouldn't be using pet gear then.

As of right now there's really not a whole lot of reward for getting an ornate pet stat item. As you get basically the same effect as a normal one. Since stats on items mean nothing to pet damage.

[umbral glade]

remember that swash pet builds might be a thing with the new conversions

[sick tinsel]

Mmh, Symbol of Doom only decrease HP and Mana (with increase of Pet act and Pet stat)

[umbral glade]

red pinion chimera gear comes to mind

that might be a lot of power per item slot

[gentle pier]

I'm not sure that's an issue. As a swash would be looking for specific low Def gear, of which pet stat gear usually isn't included.

[umbral glade]

yea idk how it would play out

[sick tinsel]

Scale like ward : add +1 when it has quality over 100

Extra grinding Final Horseman, Kerberos eyes, Bestial Eyes

From
+1% Follower Act
+2% Follower Stat

To
+2% Follower Act
+3% Follower Stat

Happy Cactus noises

[gentle pier]

All my adornment slots are used for ward since most of the pet stat gear has 0 ward.

[sick tinsel]

Offense or Defense, choose

[gentle pier]

Other classes don't have to choose between the two when it comes to armor

Well Summoner kind of does but they get defense from summons

Two helmets, one has to be filled with high ward adornments the other you can play with.

Same goes for all the other slots. I have pieces that work better for damage but I can't use them because without ward you are doomed.

[umbral glade]

but that goes for.. every class?

maybe not to that extent

[gentle pier]

Look at baldr battlerobe major ward and HP. None of the pet stat armor has any ward or HP that I have seen. I may have missed some special event gear though.

[umbral glade]

baldr also has no damage stats

a better comparison would be a heretic robe

[gentle pier]

But other classes don't depend on armor boosting damage

Not as much anyways

[umbral glade]

we gain so little damage from armors, its hard to say that we depend on it

i use 0 pieces of follower stat gear

[gentle pier]

I use godforged fey chimera armor and the feral helm

[umbral glade]

and i clear amorri in a single run, clear 50f towers w/o danger

[gentle pier]

Paired with a 200 percent fallen shield

[umbral glade]

the trade off damage<-->defense is good and intended, the numbers could be a bit better for sure, but that concept of not having both at the same time is valid

[gentle pier]

The tradeoff isn't a tradeoff currently though. It's not worthwhile

[last bane]

Heretic has Mana Rush & Omnimancy 2
RS has Feather
Gilga & Deity high defensive & Second Chance
Summoners has Battalions

And Beo's Valhallan Protection almost not working at all, and rising it's chance is not possible by gear, only Call & amity

[umbral glade]

we were talking about items

but to your point, our defensive mechanism, besides protection, is that we are free to actively defend ourself as a player

while still doing most of our damage

for items

https://orna.guide/items?show=1334

that is commonly used

[gentle pier]

Yea but our damage is low as is our defense.

[umbral glade]

its not really a defensive powerhouse, isnt it

We are getting 1.5x stat multipliers in the balance update, giving us a big defence boost

and we are getting damage buffs

don't get me wrong, I agree with your points regarding our live state

but items not being loaded on offensive and defensive stats is intended (in every game pretty much)

(besides some, looking at you fallen sky shoes)

there is certainly a need for "offensive boosts and defensive stats" on a item in which both stats arent super high

a hybrid item pretty much

but looking at the teased stat conversion, we can now use defensive items with offensive augments

or the Balin Items, the provide very high ward and suitable atk stats

that will become a offensive item for us

[rugged glade]

Don't forget that the new Valhallan Dissonance will boost our defenses too

[umbral glade]

i didnt, i listed it :p

[rugged glade]

Arf, sorry, missed it x)

[umbral glade]

[last bane]

Does the pet's AI affect block selection, or is it just random block?
It would be nice if the pet would assess the future damage to the owner, and block when it really matters

[umbral glade]

random chance

having AI block only the highest hits would be incredibly op

[hasty knoll]

there are definitely builds that rely on poor/broken 🙂

it's just important to consider everything

[elfin rampart]

Votation request:
Please use ✅ for those Beo using broken/ poor gear.
Please use ❌ for those using/ aiming for Ornate gear

[sick tinsel]

I'm curious to discover which one

[umbral glade]

can i vote for "i can understand that some classes use broken"

also i use a broken ectoplasm and ornaments

but ornate gear

what do i vote

[elfin rampart]

Does ectoplasm grant pet status?

[umbral glade]

its not about 1 item

its about all items in the game

[elfin rampart]

Which items granting +pet stats are being used in poor quality in other classes?

[sick tinsel]

Because litterally, only the amount of health change between broken and normal.
And only affect Symbol of Doom.
If the whole stat isn't quality scalable because of 1 single adorn, it meand the adorn is broken not the scaling idea ...
So I don't really get you PoV

[umbral glade]

its is about all items not pet stat items if i understand odie correctly

[elfin rampart]

Then one of us is getting a not so correct idea :/

Let's wait and see if Odie could clear it.

[sick tinsel]

yes but Odie is using this argument to convince us to not follow the idea of Follower Stat/Act scaling with quality

[elfin rampart]

Following this response thread, we are talking about items that affect pet stats and/ or action rate and these stats scaling on quality

I, personally, dont mind that my Fey Chimera gear gives +4% pet stats on broken, if I can get a +20% on God forged

And none of these stats matter on a RS swashbuckler or an Heretic sequencer

[sick tinsel]

Oh wait, I'm starting to understand
People are using poor/broken equipments
And some use Pet Armor for some obscure reasons (probably pet acting)
And if we used scaling pet stats, those players could see their build destroyed or unusable

But first, it depends the min-max of scaling, and it's few very specific broken equipment users against whole class pet

[elfin rampart]

You can still GF broken gear.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but swash GF their gears for extra adorn slots.

[sick tinsel]

And you can still gf broken gear

so I really don't get your point Odie ...

[summer gulch]

I saything mainly farming ornate pet gear when I can

Having broken, to my knowledge, is much much cheaper to upgrade, and things like pet stats and luck and exp all become the same at gf anyway?

[lime barn]

Broken is same as normal

[summer gulch]

I was told cheaper

I've been wrong b4 🤷‍♂️

[lime barn]

Was, fixed in a patch a while ago

[summer gulch]

Oooh

Damn