Valhallan Changes

[umbral glade]

so investing into tamer brings out the best

[wicked sandal]

Ancient dragons (ymir and friends, though they currently just fall on dragons) could have bond 1: Increased status chance for player and follower, bond 2: idk y et, bond 3 (or 4): Ultima, or a dragon version of ultima if you want to be fancy

but ultima makes sense with blights

and ymir has it as a move

[round shore]

sure, also good

[umbral glade]

i like dragon affinity as a level 2 bond

you being part of the crew

you get the dragon pass

[sick tinsel]

Truly, if Level 3 bond has interesting bonuses, I might play Tamer even on Beo Hydrus !

[blazing hull]

please no more ultima, have mercy for the unstable omnimancy people 😢

[wicked sandal]

ultima always hits weakness when blights are in play

so it would hit everyone for weak, not just the deities

[umbral glade]

a way to make blights AoE would be great

[stoic epoch]

Huge quality of life right there

[umbral glade]

skills and passives being able to be obtained in bonds is such a good step, it opens so much more possibilities besides temp/perm buffs and stat increases

[wicked sandal]

Per turn afaik

[umbral glade]

i could also see some "demon" pet line that start the enemies off with debuffs/sigils

its per turn now

odie said earlier

i like the idea of a pet class being debuff focused, i would love to use Arisen Glashtyn

[stoic epoch]

Yeah, the main issue with the lvl 3 bonds is using them right now drives our damage into the ground. Like, why would I use a mimic for the lvl 3 bond over just a damage pet?

I wouldn't

Maybe on Hydrus

Maybe

[umbral glade]

i think we will need more "families" of pets so you can target a weaker family with bigger bonds buffs

[manic nimbus]

You need to go as tamer for that lvl 3 bond as hydrus right?

[stoic epoch]

No

You won't get the lvl 3

[wicked sandal]

Right now you can't get that lv3 bond as hydrus

[stoic epoch]

As Hydrus

[umbral glade]

having 20 pets in animals and adding a crazy bond at 3 will just make everybody use it on fjalar

[stoic epoch]

You;'d get lvl 2 max

But like, the point stands

[umbral glade]

but having fjalar be "bird" and "giraffe's" get a crazy bond, you gotta make choices

[manic nimbus]

I see, you said maybe on hydrus

So i was wondering

[stoic epoch]

There's no reason to use the pets just for the bonds

At the current time

Except maybe on Hydrus

[wicked sandal]

But is there an issue with fjalar having a crazy bond? Sure it's better than most followers, but it's not like fjalar is particularly strong in the context of the whole game

[manic nimbus]

As auriga/base beo pet-based, there will never be

[umbral glade]

yea but looking at current bonds, they 100% have the potential to be worth choosing a weaker pet over

[manic nimbus]

You wont ever not use cactus for hordes, you wont ever not use fjalar/fey chim/ymir/lind for raids

[stoic epoch]

The potential is there, yeah

[warm finch]

Fingers crossed Phoenix has no family

[manic nimbus]

Phoenix is aninal

Animal*

[warm finch]

I know, it was a joke

[manic nimbus]

Gives dex (lol) and earth res

[umbral glade]

not in context of all of the game, just for pets. You wouldnt use a weaker pet over fjalar if they had the same bond. But if idk, a monkey pet had a better bond but less base dmg

[warm finch]

so long as we're splitting the effects by Family and not per Pet, you will always pick the strongest pet within said family if you want that family's effect

[umbral glade]

thats true

[warm finch]

that's a thing that can be solved later by narrowing the families down further and further

(If that is desired)

[umbral glade]

but "family" could also be "Baldr's chosen" and only include 2 pets and they get parry or something

[warm finch]

I want t1 Slime to have the strongest bond.

[polar locust]

Give some other pet the same skill and dmg as fjalar and different bond for other occasions?

[blazing hull]

why only earth res ? is it temporary ?

[umbral glade]

those are not final

maybe just place holders

this felt more like a "test how this bond that enables a skill / passsive works" patch

than a serious attempt at a balanced patch

[wicked sandal]

70% status protection is balanced idk what you're talking about

[polar locust]

Probably odie still seeing how pets work around with the buffs for player and pet itself

[umbral glade]

go and play with undeads having "raise dead", need to see how it functions before i add more skills

[stoic epoch]

/noddle

[round shore]

I like the variety that BB portends. I don't think BBs currently close the gap between e.g. beo and other classes in raiding. I think BB could be a lever there to be used if needed, though.

---

The gap has shrunk, because gear power has shrunk and thus player damage is smaller in a relative way, outside of beo changes.
Beo on live was something like ~half the raid speed of the other ||non summon-damage summoner|| classes.
I'm testing raid speeds atm but it may be the case that beo isn't particularly behind the others now.

The other big beo pain point was/is endless, for two reasons:

• lack of def/res multiplier (now changed)
• pet swapping pain in the ass esp. in WV/ORs (qol planned for this, I think...?)
  I'll give endless a whirl, even though I'm getting cold sweats just thinking about it again. 😅 Can compare against at least GS endless which I'm familiar with.

PvP I don't really care about; assassin ymir is still a thing there afaik, with debuff play. Not fast but certainly wins often.

[stoic epoch]

Fux reported its not workingh

[round shore]

atm it doesn't do anything that I can see

[arctic marlin]

On an otherwise useless pet why not right? 🤷‍♂️

[umbral glade]

70% at level 1 bonds, so tamer stock 📈

Pet swapping for OR/WV/Towers is confirmed to be in the works

[manic nimbus]

My opinion about this whole bestial bonds thing is that it might spice up things a bit (not with current ones, i know they are placeholders) but the core issue is that only 4 or 5 followers have decent/useful skillsets that a follower-based class needs/desires

[umbral glade]

dangy said something about it yesterday? iirc

[round shore]

it's been whispered a few times. been a wip thing for some time now I believe

[umbral glade]

i am very much interested why the straight number tweaks towards pet based damage are so conservative

even BeoA's 25% double act is a very low starting point

when compared to other classes with the same investment in AL and gear

[warm finch]

to be fair, BeoA shouldn't be that much better at pet play than base beo

since celestial classes are still meant to just be sidegrades

[manic nimbus]

Then buff both ✨

[warm finch]

yeah exactly

[manic nimbus]

Mwahah

[round shore]

1.25x isn't small 😅 my complaint there is that it doesn't change gearing by much, but that's a big number.

[umbral glade]

its in no way big when compared to whats going on when people click the realmstrikes/ultima buttons

[stoic epoch]

Fux, do you remember there ever being plans for pet equipment?

[umbral glade]

in a vacuum, yes

1.25x is big

[round shore]

yes, was planned for a while

[stoic epoch]

Ok, we were talking about it earlier

It's been so long I thought maybe I'd made it up

[warm finch]

I remember I was in Sweden, hyped for it

[stoic epoch]

Like, at least a year or so ago right?

[warm finch]

before I changed homes

[round shore]

pre-summoner at least

[warm finch]

so it's at least 2 years(?)

or well, at least pre-january 2022

[stoic epoch]

I think it was a line in a road map

[warm finch]

t'was

[round shore]

July 2022: #👋│general message
May 2022: #👋│general message

Jan 2022: #👋│general message
"... Pet equipment is on the roadmap."

so at least that old 😅

[blazing hull]

what if beo could equip 2 pets, and get a spell to rotate

[umbral glade]

i think the "2 pets" idea died with summoner being a thing

[round shore]

I like it but only if the player has to yell out the name of their pet into the microphone.
e.g. "Atlas of Olympia, I choose you!"

[fresh mist]

Loool

[stoic epoch]

Maybe Odie doesn't want to buff our damage because the pet equipment will fix us?

[manic nimbus]

Beowulf/A has been behind for a very long time and it seems it will continue to be, unfortunately. Yalala has a point, all the pet stats improvement is very conservative and barely noticeable.

[blazing hull]

giving me some zelda spirit track ptsd

[fresh mist]

There is a skill in WoW that you can temp call out like 3 pets or something, maybe beo can have a 3 turn cast that summons a handful of followers and they do their thing for a few turns, like a DC but for followers

[manic nimbus]

I want beo as it is now but with equal dmg or potential to do as much dmg as the rest if the classes. No need for a complicated new mechanic like two pets, pet control, etc. Just give it more pet damage

[fresh mist]

Imagine though, equipping your chim with a funny top hat. That'd be dope

[round shore]

I think it's worthwhile to get some numbers in here, to the extent that we can get them.
After the changes I think beo/a is somewhat behind but not sure by how much.

I don't think it needs a 2x damage effect, for instance.

[umbral glade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiJbM3HBc60 phoenix got a upgrade

[manic nimbus]

Are you telling me that as beo i can go to a raid, use gunnr and beara might and do similar dmg of an heretic or gilga?

[blazing hull]

want to make fjalar working ? make prometheus hands work on him 🙂

[fresh mist]

That looks hilarious

[manic nimbus]

Or do i need to buff for 20 turns, redline, pray for lugus buff and pray for the correct pet attack?

[warm finch]

Similarly, in octopath, the Hunter can cast a spell that summons 3/4/5/6 of their pets to act all at once. It's a pretty satisfying spell to use, because you can tailor it to many different scenarios. You can even summon the same one 6 times in a row.

Though the main thing I could see working against this system would be how to select pets for Beo. In octopath you can have like 8 pets at once, max. Hunters in wow summon from their first slots in their storage. But in orna followers do very different things, and you can't order them in storage either.

[fresh mist]

Yeah it would require either interaction with follower "storage", maybe a new screen in the loadouts etc on how they interact (also allowing quick change in towers etc). Being able to pre-select 3 of your followers, you can change between the 3, and then they interact with the random summon etc.

Similar to GS's first summons, just in a different spot instead of the Spells list

[umbral glade]

i'd be happy if we get smart AI to include "doesnt use the low damage move that gives a temp buff while the temp buff is already active"

yes i am looking at you evasive strikes

we dont get the pet spamming moves that get immuned anymore

[fresh mist]

"Call of Valhalla: Call forth your three followers to fight for you momentarily. Requires 3 turns in battle" etc

[umbral glade]

so "not use temp buffs even if they are attacks" shouldnt be impossible

can we turn out pet red like in wow as well

[fresh mist]

enrage it

Im here for that too

Some kind of buff that you can cast on your follower specifically, that increases their direct output temporarily

[umbral glade]

"remove the effect of valhallan dissonance from the player while the buff is active. Your pet is enraged and deals more damage"

we throw away the additional player stats to empower the pet

could make it a toggle effect like aegir

[stoic epoch]

I like that

[fresh mist]

true, player more vulnerable while pet is stronger

[stoic epoch]

More vulnerable = as vulnerable as we have been classically

[umbral glade]

slam on a juicy multiplier

[fresh mist]

plays into the ai, pet wants to deal as much damage as possible forcing it to choose attacks etc > buffs or protecting

[round shore]

Having to take turns to setup is still a difference/a problem.
Granted low-setup ultima is drastically reduced in the beta. Low-setup gilga SS is probably still quite high, though; full-hp realmshifter, etc.

lms where I'm at currently on the beta...

[fresh mist]

Could even solve crit bird issue, could make crit bird prioritize critting while "enraged" etc.

[umbral glade]

fjalar spamming evasive strikes should really be handled by smart ai

[fresh mist]

Yeah i'm just spit balling, maybe not a solution

[round shore]

I'm getting something like 12 turns to kill a fey chim wrb from full hp (not even entering at low hp for max passive, which I could do and which would speed it up immensely).

My BeoH on live is something like 5 turns to do the same...? wyrms ultima ultima.
After the aug nerfs, but with the beoh buff, it might be more like 7-8 turns...?

Both setups of course max offense, ~low defense.

I just ran lindworm: gunnr, bear, woo (after taking a few hits), DC, realmshift2, then spammed riposte3 to the finish line.
Also player damage is not insignificant with that cool 1.5x player atk 😅

obv. with zerk(shrooms), brynhild, etc. can kinda keep on buffing but raids don't really require that atm.

the damage is definitely quite high 😅 this is all beoa/tamer of course.
entering at low hp, lindworm is already hitting for 1mil with not a ton of buffs active.

[fresh mist]

Wowsa

On a mirror or beta character?

[round shore]

mirror

[fresh mist]

Ooo okay

[umbral glade]

it just might be the AL then

that will certainly help at least

[manic nimbus]

I really want to test with a mirrored char

[fresh mist]

63 AL certainly might help a tiny bit

[umbral glade]

you know, having 60 AL more than the average joe

[manic nimbus]

Could only get my beta char to al20

[round shore]

... weren't we talking about:

use gunnr and beara might and do similar dmg of an heretic or gilga?
?

what AL should be used for this comparison 😅

[manic nimbus]

Unrelated with ALs

[round shore]

I'm trying to find the baseline. Want to compare like-to-like.
I can compare beo to beoH pretty easily, given that I have same AL on both 😛

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zUv9Jgp6fkk

[manic nimbus]

Per your test, beoA still takes more than the rest of the classes to achieve similar results

[round shore]

here's lindworm blowing up a raid with low buffs (and suboptimal play)

[fresh mist]

sorry bit of a tangent on that lol

[round shore]

looks like 8 turns for >5mil to me. with some rng variance in there of course -- notably no lug procs.

[stoic epoch]

It

[round shore]

scaled down with ascensions that might be something more like 20 turns total? or 15?

that being said, the comparison would be roughly 5 turns for >5mil for other classes.
nowadays they're like: wyrms, ultima, ultima. or bear gunnr SS3 SS3 ...

[umbral glade]

just dbl act mark->execution every turn and we can win

[round shore]

it's all a little bit crazy to me 😅 I remember measuring raids when 100k/turn was like, a high mark.

[umbral glade]

i remember falling asleep hitting the same button in a kingdom raid at t7

[round shore]

in 8 turns I'd expect double-act to happen 2 times (25%) 😛

[stoic epoch]

Nyx lunge spam on Polly

[umbral glade]

yea but imagine 100%! our potential is crazy!

[stoic epoch]

Fux, are you saying our damage isn't our issue?

[round shore]

I'm saying beo raid damage is behind the others and I'm trying to quantify how much behind

[stoic epoch]

Oh

[ivory birch]

and also just, generally, player damage has inflated so much over the yrs

[wicked sandal]

It's worse relative to others, but it's not like beo can't clear raids

[stoic epoch]

No, we clear raids were just slower

[wicked sandal]

I take more issue with that it's both slower and less safe

[umbral glade]

i still consider tanky horde fights the worst for pets

we cant aoe them, we got random selected single target hits

no 2 target cleave

all followers that use blights/sigils are unusable

i just skip floor 45+ fallen heretic fights, not because they could kill me, but because they are so damn slow

[round shore]

yeah, gilga is super fast and is the most safe.
realm/heretic/deity are right up there on speed, and realm is less safe.
gs bp is super fast and super unsafe.
...
beo is a good speed and unsafe.
gs summoner is awful speed and kinda safe.

[fresh mist]

Unrelated to valhallan, but faster combat for horde floors would make this a lot more bearable

[stoic epoch]

Mage's dance on an un ascended deity or heretic clears horde floors real quick

[wicked sandal]

in towers probably not. Maybe selene lute deity

heretic doubt

[stoic epoch]

Oh, thought he was talking dungeons

[fresh mist]

Just for towers reference, semi-unrelated to thread though, sorry to interject lal

[wicked sandal]

I mean hati/skoll, nothrens, macolytes, kektus, trolls could maybe be mage's danced without too ridiculous an investment

kobolds

[umbral glade]

i think he means the fights with 6 griffons using spells

or the odin+4 nothren + 4 yeti fights

taking ages

[wicked sandal]

but stuff like pegasi, griffins, dragons, heretic

[umbral glade]

due to animation bloat

[fresh mist]

Or the pegasus, having to wait for the holy ring to come and go 5 times

[umbral glade]

i would be real happy if they removed the proximity requirement of going up a floor once a guardian is defeated

[round shore]

for horde (dungeons): until we get non-splitting pet-based aoe or until non-splitting aoe gets taken to the woodshed, it's just cactus and it has an upper limit on clearspeed. at which point you should just run sweep/dance on the player, and then the pet is AP and now you're a discount heretic like everyone else. honorable mention to the follower doing better damage where relevant I guess, and acting more often.

for towers: yeah, beo/A not being able to reliably 1shot the things it wants to one shot, and not having non-split nor multi-hit (av2) pet-based aoe is very rough. player damage plus single target follower damage isn't bad though, delving into player damage away from pure follower damage. a pure follower damage tower setup would need something to change to be better.

[umbral glade]

my tower clear speed legit went up a good chunk on beoA after unlocking GilgaH for chained shield (and Balor3/Guardianstrikes4)

[wicked sandal]

it's ok if I get to a100 I might be able to do t11 horde boss with kektus as oracle

[umbral glade]

its like 10-30k dmg per target with fenrir bloodlust and tower atk^ buff

[round shore]

I do wish we had better naked single target followers. The only thing close is uhh... living arsenal? macolyte?

just something that spams relatively damaging single target spells and pops one enemy at a time. doesn't bother with buff/debuffs, just pew pew.

granted such a thing would also become a pvp terror

🤷‍♂️

[umbral glade]

we got pvp/pve split balance now

just nerf it in pvp

if thats the argument

[round shore]

t9 greaper doesn't quite do it, but it's a single targeter as well.

if you get dex^ from a chest you can run fjalar and it's gravy.

[wicked sandal]

feel like all the higher damage pets are coinflip one way or another

[umbral glade]

i enjoy fenrir as it turns off any risk of death when only paying 20% attention

and he does surprisingly well in damage

[wicked sandal]

fenrir is relatively consistent but does on average quite lower dmg than cactus, fjalar, and such

[umbral glade]

but you cant get atk^^ from chests so he will have a dead turn for bloodlust

[wicked sandal]

and yeah the dead turn is an issue

in towers

[umbral glade]

he outperforms other in terms of pure laziness

no need to buff

he provides the atk up

he keeps hp up

i just go WoO -> chained shield or DC if the fight takes a while (pegasus, dragons)

and i dont need to look at the screen after that moment

which is nice when i play with scrncpy on a multi screen setup

[wicked sandal]

I just go AV2 or V4 until everything is dead

maybe woo for high floor nidhogg, if I don't just skip it

[astral juniper]

what gear are you using to do 2.2mil marks?

[wicked sandal]

63 ascension levels do a bit of work

[umbral glade]

its.. in the video my dude

[round shore]

+50 stat celestial axe, +24 stat 12doom finsword.
+2 smartAI pieces

L250, asc63. missing +stat on helm chest boots amity and both accessories

[astral juniper]

didnt show what was augmentednon celestial either way , but i do have to admit i closed then video immediately after the kill and missed that part

asc63 helps a lot too i guess 😄

[errant sigil]

Same with everything. Rng if second chance will activate, rng if battalion protects you, there is definitely an element of rng to the game and I don't think that's a bad thing

With no RNG you know the outcome without even doing anything because there is 0 variance

Since this game is not skill based, it needs that RNG to have some sort of variety to give you more situations to actually react to

[wicked sandal]

other classes don't leave their main attack to chance though, other than summoners but their rng averages out easier cause they have multiple summons that coinflip their moves instead of just one follower

[sick tinsel]

Mmh, we might have a problem with the actual Bestial Bond type attribution
Using Family is forcing a whole bunch of follower into one predetermined bonus list.

Problem : Pheonix, Pegasus, Fjalar are all animals, but their use are different

• Pheonix buff and stack ward turns (secondary damage)
• Pegasus heals, cleanse and revive
• Fjalar damage, buff and crit

In the same family you can have a Physical, Magical or Hybrid attacker / Ward generator / Healer / Buffer / etc ...

We might need a separator to better attribute a role to the Follower

[gentle pier]

I think the real answer to this is that pets bond type needs to be addressed individually rather than as groups. I get it's easier to say if pet=this bond=this, but is it better or adequate?

[sick tinsel]

it's long very long to have specific bond for EACH pet

[wicked sandal]

Alternatively cryptid rarity pets could each have a unique bond that ties into their kit, while standard rarity pets keep family

[gentle pier]

"Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty" -Theodore Roosevelt.

I don't believe they spent years making the game because it was easy.

[sick tinsel]

Say that to Odie

[gentle pier]

Doesn't have to be a specific new bond for each pet. But bonds decided on case by case basis

[gentle pier]

Pretty sure he is of the mindset based on the premise of the grind in Orna.

[hasty knoll]

per-follower bonds would be a nightmare to balance imo. and determine. and maintain - and keep interesting with new content

[gentle pier]

I'm not saying new bonds for every follower, just possibly apply what you have already on a case by case basis. Though to be fair I have no idea how many pets are in the game. I've only ever used maybe 10 different ones.

[sick tinsel]

Doesn't feel right to have exceptions, because when you add new followers with specific bonds, you have to check every previous ones to see if it's balanced or not

[hasty knoll]

is case-by-case not per-follower? am i misunderstanding?

180+ followers, by the way

[sick tinsel]

Well they propose to do specific Bestial Bond on cryptid (masterforge aura) followers

[sage umbra]

Speaking of this number, on aethric there is going to be a way to store more pets? they are limited to 100

[hasty knoll]

yeah, need to do that

[last totem]

I feel either I miss something or something is wrong here with the stats on beta.
I'd expected higher stats except for crit for raid Setup, even dex is considerable lower with bird bond

Or at least the same stats, not sure right now BeoH base stats got also increased or only for beoO

[arctic marlin]

Whats difference between left and right pic?

[last bane]

Hm, how about give BeoH the full power of Gilga's Chain Shield?

[fossil pendant]

how about give it to everyone

[last bane]

Beo's are more close to gilga's than other

[fossil pendant]

realm dorado

deity

[last bane]

RS dorado - idk, maybe
Deity - no

[spring elm]

Bond bonus sets should pair with a follower's skills or "role" rather than an arbitrary factor such as "family", imo.

An example for separation could be "buff support" for pets such as phoenix or Archimedes, and have bond bonuses such as buff duration, temp buffs, player stats, etc...
Other role examples could be "debuff support", "defensive support", "pet damage", "generic" etc...

Not a fan of granting new skills to followers, as it feels it would be more likely to interfere than help. Unless those are very potent skills that fit with the follower's role, and even then there could be an issue with snotra/gunnr for damage based pets.

[last totem]

Left Beta, right live. Exactly same gear, no hybrid conversion other than class passive.
Thats why I'd expect higher stats on beta, because base stats should be increased

Also bond 1 from bird (dex%)

[sonic ravine]

as a non-valhallan user :v I say they should be able to use 2 followers (or one of the specs be able to) on pve only :v and followers be changed to appear in the equipment section so you can use loadouts :B

[last bane]

Odie is working on ability to swap pets inside towers/other realms and portals, but not in battle

[arctic marlin]

Yikes yeah super weird

Something must be different

[wicked sandal]

no party/origin town bonus on beta maybe?

[last totem]

Thats not a thing on HoA 🤔

[wicked sandal]

oh then idk, I never played HoA

[ivory birch]

show gear?

[last bane]

I want mushroom-shield, i want gnaw it in battle and get berserk buff.

[obsidian vector]

Can someone pls recap what's been discussed?

[elfin rampart]

Additional bonus to Bestial Bond.
End.

[stoic epoch]

We like the change to Valhallan Dissonance, like the extra base stats, like the built-in pet ai.

Bestial Bonds, our new passive, was underwhelming on day 1. Odie has made positive changes since then, such as letting the bond levels stack (you get the bonus from all bond levels you qualify for, so if you've got bond lvl 3 you get all 3 bonds).

The bond bonuses are better than they were but they're still lackluster and there's no reason currently that you'd choose a follower for their bonds over one of the normal dps pets.

Odie's working on us.

[lime barn]

What does success look like?

Choosing pets over normal dps pets? Wouldn’t there just be 1 pet that everyone uses as the meta because the bonds are better than Fjalar / Lindworm / whatever is the best dps pet people have access to?

[sick tinsel]

I absolutely validate that
I already said it, but followers can do opposite things in the same family.
Attributing roles will help to get the appropriate Bestial Bond on the right followers.
Not only that, it can be used in the future on Summons and Monsters in general to have tweaked IA : having more unique and interesting interaction in battles

We have to list the categories of followers ... but first : breakfast !

[warm finch]

As odie stated, there are currently almost 200 pets, and giving them all individual bonds would be complicated, and hard to balance.

However, one could always limit the unique bonds to masterforged pets. And if that's still too much, then limit it to t9/t10 pets(?) as well since that is when bonds show up anyhow. Or even limit the unique bonds to Level 3, making it t10 only

[noble stag]

A limited amount of pets could get unique bonds, that'd be cool

Not sure how necessary it is, but cool as a concept

[round shore]

there are currently almost 200 pets, and giving them all individual bonds would be complicated
kinda.

there's a lot of vertical upgrades in followers that could all have the same bond effects.
for instance, {cactus, big cactus, steward cactus, fey cactus} could all have the exact same bond effects.

for the most part it could be a lore exercise, also. A way to add a bit more flavor to things, if not outright power.

if Odie says it's too much, then it's too much. certainly for right now, for sure, but I could see it growing in that direction later.

[umbral glade]

Splitting some families (animals like a birds and mystical animals like pegasus) and grouping some pets for things like events (like ancient dragons) can work. As does grouping them by "lore" (like "Mammons chosen").
This could reduce the amount of different bonds from 180ish to 20?ish

Slot everything that doesnt fit into a filler category (like common) and give that bond generic stats

[warm finch]

Yeah, more specific groupings were also mentioned in the discussion

Titans, Memories, Ancient Dragons, Fey-Cursed, (...)

[umbral glade]

Unique bonds is a nice idea to make some pets FEEL unique, like adding "this pet acts 3 times each turn" for a dual wielding dagger using pet, simulating a 3 hit combo

Or a heavy hitting but very slow pet getting "this pet only acts every second turn" but giving it a juiced damaga mod

This doesnt have to be backtracked to every pet ever, but a select few feeling special would be cool

[warm finch]

I guess that'd be similar to event gear. Not all of them have cool passive effects

And we didn't backtrack to add new passives to old items

[umbral glade]

"this pet mirrors your attacks" to support the battle basebeo+pet thing

[warm finch]

... well we did a tiny bit, but not all

[umbral glade]

I imagine it being reserved for event based pets, not the every day beastiary pet

Ymir getting one makes sense, a random lobster not so much

There is a lot of room for creativity with that idea without it being broken at a random interaction. All animals attacking 3 times would make fjalar broken, a pet that is 3 pinguins with lower base stats would not

[sick tinsel]

At base we have :

• Healer (Use Pray, Cleanse/Dispel, Revive)
• Warden (Use Ward of .../Divine Bastion, Rempart/Fortify, Mend Wall)
• Booster (Use strong and/or many buffs)
• Debuffer (Apply strong and/or many buffs)
• Mage (Deal damage by using spells)
• Warrior (Deal damage by using skills)
• Hybrid (Deal damage by using skills and spells through Hybrid calculation or not)
• Elementalist (Deal elemental damage by using skill or spells and exploit elemental weaknesses)
• Blaster (Deal damage by using AoE skills or spells)
• Summoner (Use summoning spells)

[umbral glade]

Debuffer (like yokai demon thingy)

[sick tinsel]

I forgot this one, thanks

[umbral glade]

But its hard to group them like that as well

[sick tinsel]

Could you give me an example ?

[umbral glade]

Arisen glashtyn debuffs then mage's

[sick tinsel]

Elementalist

[umbral glade]

Ymirs brother, the purple dragon, gory... Uses divine bastion, transference and dark/holy blight and dark/holy strikes

[sick tinsel]

Mmh complicated, but I would say warden, it has more ward based spells

every Draconian Era followers have blights (and so debuffs)

Ymir would be Elementalist

[umbral glade]

I dont think we need just one, very strict, type of grouping

Having one group be "dragonic era" and one group being undead hordes and another one being "Apollyons Followers"

Is not that bad

Grouping them by theme could give them thematically fitting bonds, draconic era could be blight related as an example

I just think we need more than the current 11? Groups

[sick tinsel]

Ah, specific group instead of specific Bond is an interesting idea 👍

Elementalist might be seperated in Sigil user and Blight users

[umbral glade]

There could still be a unique bond for a unique follower later down the line, i don't think thats ruled out

[sick tinsel]

But Draconian Era followers doesn't have the same use, here's the problem

[umbral glade]

But 180 unique bonds is honestly not worth the effort

"blights are less likely to fall of" and "enemies start with a blight"

Could both fit every blight based follower

[sick tinsel]

Why not combinate 2 group maximum ?

[umbral glade]

Arisen glashtyn with enemies starting blighted might just be a good follower

[sick tinsel]

Ymir : Mage & Debuff

A. Glashtyn : Mage & Debuff

it offers more flexibility

[umbral glade]

I mean, yea that could work, some pets could just be the same type 2 times and double the bonuses

I think we need to throw out some of the very lackluster bonuses or juicy up their numbers. No ody is going crazy for 10% more hp on a red lining class

[sick tinsel]

if (followerTypeNumber == 1) {
      followerBondBonus *= 2;
}```

Or we can say Cryptid have 2x Bonds ?

And normal to epic = 1

[obsidian vector]

Wow, that was a nice recap tbh. Thx🍻

[umbral glade]

I think a set of "rules" would be nice for bonds as a mechanic.
The first bonus being kinda generic, since tamer can access it. Level 2 needs to be more powerfull, level 3 should also escalate the power, as that is unique to very few classes, those effects could be more focused on an archetype due to the limited access to them

[sick tinsel]

strongly agree

[umbral glade]

There are also some bonuses that you are never really happy about, like more max hp (yes i know it can be usedull with candy cane to sustain berserks

Idk how i feel about resistances, they can be nice in specific fights, but as a general bonus they might be too niche

[warm finch]

Level 3 should specifically be an additional, powerful source of damage

[umbral glade]

That being said, a defensive follower group having, idk, 20% all resistance as a level 3 bonus could be nice

[warm finch]

Since it is only available to Beo and BeoA

Which are reliant on pet for damage

[sick tinsel]

or BeoH + Tamer

[umbral glade]

No, tamer doesnt stack up

Only highest level counts

[warm finch]

Passives don't stack yeah

[sick tinsel]

wait, that's bad :(

I want to see more interaction between them

[umbral glade]

You might have that mixed up with the thingy i made

[sick tinsel]

If BB3 is interesting, I want to use it with Hydrus

[umbral glade]

Tbh, i would love a way to utilize non tamer

But if feels mandatory for beoA

[warm finch]

If they did stack, you'd need a Level 4 for Beo and BeoA, since they likely want tamer as well.
But if you make them rely on tamer for level 4 then you're spec locking

[umbral glade]

BeoA could honestly use a fixed 100% pet action rate

[sick tinsel]

Would be logical since BeoA and Beo are pet reliant

[warm finch]

Spec locking is never a good thing

[umbral glade]

BeoA should get to level 4 with tamer but base beo should maybe only get to 3 with tamer and not without in that situation

[warm finch]

At that point BeoA becomes too much of an upgrade rather than a sidegrade tbh

[umbral glade]

The problem with 4 levels is that we didnt even figure out good stuff for all level 3s yet

[sick tinsel]

Else it's Raider or Berserker

With the new Valhallan Dissonance, that's like mandatory

both pet and player gain from berzerk

[umbral glade]

The sidegrade should be "sucks at dealing dmg himself but very good pet" compared to "good self damage and good pet" on base

Not "a bit worse at dealing dmg hinself but very good pet" like its now

BeoH on the other side of sidegrades should be "very good at fighting himself but bad pet"

Which it is

[sick tinsel]

sure, but Level 4 is not the priority now

[warm finch]

BeoA cannot use Skills or Spells

[umbral glade]

Heck, reduce my atk and magic to 0 if that what it take

Make me the pokemon master tanking hits and commanding units

[sick tinsel]

Transfer 100% Att and Mag to your Follower's stat

[umbral glade]

1:1 ratio might be a bit much

But sap my atk and magic by 90% and give half of it to the pet

Or something like it

Could also work for crit, so the player could build atk+crit chance to nix up possible item builds

We should brainstorm a list of modifiers for bonds. Nothing too unique, just to replace current placeholders

In a sperate list there could be interesting, existing (passive-) skills since its been confirmed that we can get those through bonds as well

[obsidian vector]

So, for the everyday bestiary pets: basic family grouping,
Masterforge pets: make 'em unique, and if there's a multiple choice for a pet (like kerberos and a.kerberos) just put them in the same family. This could also done with Cerus pets and alikes
Event pets(that isn't MF): their own family grouping

I think this type of categorizing would do the job and also wouldn't take much effort to implement I guess

[sick tinsel]

nah, Pegasus and Fjalar doesn't have the same use, and yet they are in the same family

[sick tinsel]

That's why I prefer using another way to separate followers

[obsidian vector]

So stop using 'em

[sick tinsel]

Bad beowulf, bad !

[umbral glade]

Every pet but the 4 good ones switches you to heretic at the beginning of fights

[obsidian vector]

Yeah that's neat but as others have said, some pets fall into more than one category. And also you have to start categorizing each pet from 0. And it's kinda kills the uniqueness of MF pets

[umbral glade]

Class fixed

I think going for broad categories now and making them more diverse and/or adding unique bonds later on is a good solution

Get the mechanic working now, get the balance to a decent state

Then spend time on a singular pet

[obsidian vector]

Is it?

[umbral glade]

Time is limited

If odie could make 180 unique bonds and still do his normal work

He would i think

But that shit takes a lot of time

And a tier 3 warg having a unique bond doesnt really do anything

I'd much rather have somewhat generic but strong and usefull bonds now

[obsidian vector]

I mean, let's make it at least decent enough and then add on it. So that way, we don't wait for a balance change for another year

[umbral glade]

So what if both a pegasus and a fjalar have chance to inflict temp dbl def fown

Maybe we get a mythical creature family down the line that makes pegasus different

But that should not be the priority now

[obsidian vector]

Yeah I know, that's why I don't want a half baked mechanic which devs would push under the rug each time they see it

[umbral glade]

Balor forces have +20% dark damage and +20% fire resistance for level 2 and 3 atm, changing these placeholders to real things should be what we brainstorm about imo

[obsidian vector]

That's why I'm not asking for unique buffs for each pet. Just enough to make some pets stand out

[umbral glade]

And i agree, having some event type followers with unique bonds is a great idea

Especially with level 3 bonds being very unique to beo(a)

Having a undead event and the special event necromancer pet having the level 3 bond exchange a weak ability to some big d zombie summon

[obsidian vector]

And BeoH right? Right?

[umbral glade]

Sounds great

Beoh cant reach level 3

[obsidian vector]

Wait, what?!

[umbral glade]

Tamer and class bonds dont stack

Only the highest level counts

(currently, maybe that changes at some point, idk)

[obsidian vector]

🥲

[sick tinsel]

Added summoner type

Since it exists

[sick tinsel]

I want also BB to be stackable

[noble stag]

speaking of summoner type, undead followers get summon dead

thats pretty cool

[sick tinsel]

and what's the use ?

[noble stag]

meat shields

[sick tinsel]

Beowulf can tank no problem, especially since we get +50% stats at 1 hp now

you're just launching a passive into garbage

Summoning followers already add meatshields, with 100% stats, instead of 10% if it has been fixed

[noble stag]

but most summoning followers are bad arent they

[sick tinsel]

Why are they, good question

[noble stag]

i mean we all know the answer already

phoenix is broken so no point of using something else

[sick tinsel]

[noble stag]

and for beo you use the highest damage, not utility or buffing

[sick tinsel]

if that was only that

[noble stag]

oh just checked

no t10 undead follower

lol

best one is vss, which is pretty good actually

if phoenix wasnt godlike maybe it could see use for a beoh swash build

70% status protection and summoned meatshields on top of the vss debuff is pretty good for beoh, considering it only gets level 2 bond

[sick tinsel]

they are just placeholder

70% steadfast is a bug btw

[noble stag]

yeah was just going to ask

thats pretty absurd

[umbral glade]

Thats likely 7% next patch

A follower that spawns summons is a cool idea tbh

[sick tinsel]

with a right Bond it can be interesting

[umbral glade]

I imagine a beo hitting stuff and the necromancer pet spawns meatshields

So you can go lower on defense

[sick tinsel]

Imagine Beowulf-Benefactor

[umbral glade]

And more all in on damage

[sick tinsel]

It makes more sense now with 50% stats from Valhallan Dissonance

Trying to see a synergy between summons and Beowulf

[obsidian vector]

BloodBact?

[sick tinsel]

Bestial Bond

[obsidian vector]

Yeah but the other party members can't

[sick tinsel]

Who wants to play summoner with party members ???

[sick tinsel]

Use Provoke and a follower with Provoke II

and party member use Appease II

You can also use a Warden type Follower that can apply ward turns and regen ward

Breathing Armor is incredible for that

[obsidian vector]

That sounds super cool btw. I'd even add summon vss spell into my raid set and waste 50 turns summoning just for the fun of it

[sick tinsel]

use Onryo :
https://playorna.com/codex/followers/onryo/
She can apply permanent Def-- and Res-- and summons Dead

[obsidian vector]

No, you'll be the carry playing BeoH. So you don't actually need those summons, but your tiny little cute fragile friends might need it

[sick tinsel]

Who's "tiny little cute fragile friends" ?

[obsidian vector]

Yeah but it takes ages for her to do her trick

And morrigan raids often cleans

[sick tinsel]

"waste 50 turns summoning just for the fun of it"

[obsidian vector]

Your other party members

[sick tinsel]

Understand that each member added reduce the utility of Summons, since they litteraly replace them

[obsidian vector]

I know

[sick tinsel]

Just use a warden pet

[obsidian vector]

But you're thinking through the empty side of bottle

Think of it as filling the gaps in party with summons

While you or anyone actually carry the game. And you don't have high foresight so you don't interrupt the loop

[sick tinsel]

That's an overcomplicated strategy

plus it will work only in raid

the most efficiently atleast

Cause in dungeons the summons disappear

[noble stag]

Stuff that sounds cool in theory is usually bad in practice lol

[sick tinsel]

Try it in beta before you spend hours to test a build that doesn't work in any content

[obsidian vector]

Right 🤦🏻‍♂️

[elfin rampart]

Bonds are an interesting concept, but lets just not forget that the BeoA main issue (low damage) is still glooming over.

[stoic epoch]

Beo A and Beo Classic

[hasty knoll]

if a bond gives a follower +10% more magic/attack - that is more damage, no? why treat bonds and damage mutually exclusive?

[last bane]

i can't say that RS's Avidity and +10% to pet's mag/att are equivalent

[hasty knoll]

hmm...i don't think that is what i asked

[sick tinsel]

Resuming Bonds to +10% att/mag is not very honest

[hasty knoll]

let's keep in mind the number "10" is an example

my question is:

is giving follower stats through bonds not a direct addition of damage? why treat bonds as something that cannot provide damage?

[sick tinsel]

BeoA is more pet dependant, Bonds is applied to all Beowulf classes
So it doesn't help Beowulf Auriga in terms of damage when compared to other Beowulf.
Which is a waste since this variant should be better in raid

[magic quest]

Bonds do work with pet stats right
So is bonds a multiplicative stat bonus or additional

[hasty knoll]

multiplicative

[magic quest]

Oh than wouldn't that make dragons on of the top performers since their high base stats

Someone pls test Ymir in beta and what bond does it have

[hasty knoll]

ie: 7% magic bond (numbers are examples)

so follower magic X 1.07, which increases damage

Auriga double cast doubles output 1/3 of the time, therefore another X 1.33 bump (situationally)

ergo, Bonds do increase damage, Auriga does have more damage output

[last bane]

Bond are pretty good & interesting way to all Vallhallan's
But BeoA needs some much more "explosive" passive to rise up pet's damage

[magic quest]

Idk before patch i was reaching some high numbers with Ymir and base beo i think pet based damge is going to be in a good place after this patch

I think it's more of some followers that need work like the last patch did with fjallar

[last bane]

RS or Heretic can do stable damage 1-3mil+ every turn, they can annihilate Raids in a seconds
Beo's 1mil+ is more like a holiday
(or, maybe, i do smt wrong)

[magic quest]

Uh i am pretty sure you can not utilise all buffs they do on beo like realm can stack all three zerks and herectic can blueline safely and moreover crit multiplier gives a high bump to these classes

Though you can do your own DMG after patch since beo is getting a self redline passive and can also tank better

[umbral glade]

I think the whole "more damage" thing is not "BeoA does more damage after the patch than before the patch"

its "BeoA does not do as much damage as heretic/gilga/.. "

and the patch closes the gap

but its still a gap

especially when you consider that our "optimal damage" is still behind layers of rng

we need our pet to select the right move

Fjalar using aergial barrage vs evasive strikes

and we need to hit our actual preferred target

as an example, the mammon acolyte in the mimic king tower fight

We feel like we get outperformed quite heavily at that

[manic nimbus]

Sure is a direct addition of damage but I don't think it would solve the problem because beo and most importantly Beo Auriga rely exclusively on pet damage. We do not use pets as support (Auriga mostly). Either all the families get that bond and we see an increase of pet damage across the board or the families that don't get it will be useless as a damage dealer. At this point, might as well increase pet damage without resorting to bonds.

[magic quest]

But aren't herectic and realm dps classes granted herectic has good survivability too but any class can reach survivable amount of ward

[umbral glade]

we are as much as "damage class" as gilga is

and i dont like the term "damage class"

we don't have support or tank classes in this game

[manic nimbus]

Is there really a non-damage class in orna?

Its not like this is a full fledged mmo

[umbral glade]

only self sufficient classes

[manic nimbus]

All classes need to be self-sufficient here

[lime barn]

yeah it's every player for themselves, and only damage per turn matters

[umbral glade]

damage per turn while staying alive

[lime barn]

good point

[umbral glade]

the more dmg per turn, the less you need the "staying alive" part

[lime barn]

cliff at the top end tho, i.e. if you can one shot you don't need defenses 😛

[umbral glade]

as raids cant scale to deal high dmg if they just die

[manic nimbus]

Of course there are "themes" per class but in the end, damage matters

[lime barn]

yeah i think "tank, healer, dps" classes are all just.. flavor text in this game 😄

[umbral glade]

the less damage you do, the longer you need to stay alive

[magic quest]

I just think comparing classes is a bad thing for balance

[lime barn]

can't get away from it though

because of ascensions causing class lock in

[umbral glade]

you need to reach a base level of "every class can do every content" - which we have

now some classes can be better at something than others

just no class should be the best at them all

[manic nimbus]

We dont really compare classes exactly but classes' potential to do deal similar amounts of damage in similar number of turns (weighting cons and pros of each class)

[lime barn]

btw anything new here for beos? bestial bonds buff but still not enough to choose a new pet?

[manic nimbus]

The pros of beo are.. stronger and more reliable pets that do WAY less damage than the rest of the classes

[umbral glade]

mechanics got way more interesting, but tuning is still at placeholder levels

but we got confirmation whats possible (passive and active skills as bond bonus)

[magic quest]

The balance patch is aimed at improving beos situation which it does after this patch beo will be in a better state than then it was before that's all i am saying

[lime barn]

what's the take that if tuning is "enough" 1 pet will be meta because it's about DPT maximization at the end of the day?

[umbral glade]

players will always min max a game to death

[lime barn]

yeah exactly

[umbral glade]

but having options that are similar enough that they feel like OPTIONS

is the goal to aim for

[manic nimbus]

Hmm sure we get stat buffs and a potentially cool passive and isnt the point of beta to discuss these changes in order to improve gameplay with them?

[lime barn]

nice, that sounds like great advice if you have toddlers also

[manic nimbus]

If tou think beos are better now than they were which is technically true, then we can close shop and go home :p

[lime barn]

"carrots are just like chocolate!"

[umbral glade]

"carrots are my favourite but chocolate is also great"

[lime barn]

yeah i just can't ever get out of the mental trap of like.. ok every player will see through the illusion of choice

and 90% of the time use 1 pet with the best combo of bestial bonds

[hasty knoll]

the point of CCS and this patch is really to make sure classes can play with efficacy across the board. cherrypicking another class's performance in an area (say, a raid) can just lead us to grass-is-greener situations

my question was pertaining to why bonds are being discounted as a potential damage solution

[magic quest]

Then why are we comparing classes rather than coming up with ideas to improve what beo can i just think comparing classes will get us nowhere and often turns into arguments rather than discussion

[stoic epoch]

No one's seriously discounting them

They're just not there yet

[umbral glade]

Oh I can see bonds being the solution to damage

[manic nimbus]

You can see it as benchmarking? If we ignore the existence of other classes then beo does fine within the game since we wouldn't have a term of conparison

[stoic epoch]

The mechanic is cool, there's just not enough gas in the tank to get us where we want to go

[umbral glade]

numbers can be tweaked

[stoic epoch]

Exactly

[hasty knoll]

the comment i began this conversation suggested that Bestial Bonds were cool, but Beo's damage was an issue

[umbral glade]

i would just like a mechanical solution that i can influence beyond "having a passive"

as in

i want to gear for my pet being better

and stuff like 7% follower stats feel lacking

compared to options other classes have currently

I like investing into my character to be strong

"beo is great without gear" is cool and all, but being a "beo main" doesnt improve much beyond that

[lime barn]

would 20% follower stats per item be interesting, especially if follower stats scaled with gear quality

[manic nimbus]

What is CCS?
We are not dismissing the potential of bonds and the new ones are definitely more interesting than the initial ones but from a gameplay point of view, beo still needs to do juggle between buffs, staying alive, temporary buffs and follower rng to hopefully do similar damage compared to other t10 classes

[magic quest]

That's what I said in the Beginning followers aren't weak they just don't have the multipliers and builds like other classes do

[umbral glade]

its not about numbers for me

numbers can be tweaked

[manic nimbus]

Since they don't have the multipliers and builds other classes do... They are currently weak

[lime barn]

read about ccs: https://blog.ornarpg.com/state-of-balance-h1-2023/

[manic nimbus]

Ah class content score

Wasnt sure what the term meant

[magic quest]

Yeah as with a follower which has crit spells won't crit 100% every time and there is no way to improve that while other classes can

[umbral glade]

My tldr would be: Bonds can fix "beo lacks damage" without a doubt, but I want to influence "Beo lacks damage" by gearing for damage, like everybody else

[stoic epoch]

Pet gear when?

[manic nimbus]

Even with an hypothetical 100% pet crit gear, you are still subject to follower rng to use the correct skill :/

[stoic epoch]

Cactus footy pajamas, +100% raid damage

[umbral glade]

bonds for me are an addition to the pets skill set, which makes me select pets for content

[magic quest]

I think pet stats should influence followers other stats too like dex crit so the miss less often can reliably crit

[last bane]

Gear for pet, it can be all one grade(no grindable)
To give pet some modifications:
Each piece can provide more doublecast, more act chanse, more protect chance, more crit.dmg/crit.chance, more raw att/mag
and the more Beo powefull - more different pieces pet can hold on

[manic nimbus]

But still you will choose the same old pets for a specific type of content

If you want to be efficient, at least

[umbral glade]

if i was to deep dive some math class and min max there will alwaysbe a best

you cant change that

[manic nimbus]

Im not even thinking about minmaxing at this point but wby choose (for example) a Pegasus with a cool bond if fenrir does way better anyway without bonds in the equation

[umbral glade]

but if i can pick a competitive 2 target cleave pet, a magic based single target pet, a attack single target pet and a full aoe option and they are all close enough

[manic nimbus]

Just an example

[umbral glade]

thats a choice i could make and not feel bad

bonds can make this choice more interesting

and they can no doubt fix damage problems

i am not sure if i want most of my "power budget" from bonds thou
having the source of power being in a class passive and making the bonds a bit more utility focused would feel better in the long run imo

[manic nimbus]

Thats what I was tying to convey but you just did it way better

Exactly this

[umbral glade]

like, choosing a pet with vision distance bonds or a, idk, pet with a bond that drops random herbs on kill is a fun choice

[manic nimbus]

Bonds should be an additional "spice up"

[umbral glade]

having a pet with a bond thats +30% dmg or a +10% dmg bond

is not

and "both have 30%" is not a fun solution either, at that point i would need to ask the question "why a bond and not just 30% dmg"

I honestly think the current bonds with actual balance and no more placeholders is a great step

and once again, we dont doubt that bonds CAN fix any damage issues, I am asking myself if they should

[obsidian vector]

I mean, BeoA shouldn't be superior to BeoH in most situations cuz you literally don't need any gear investment to be powerful.

[umbral glade]

no beo main wants to be the "you dont need geare class"

that was fun from level 225 to 230

[stoic epoch]

Yeah, if the design philosophy is "beoA and beo classic will always do less damage because they're not gear dependent" just let me know now so I can start maining something else.

But that's a terrible design decision, imho

And I don't think that's where odies going with us

[obsidian vector]

I mean, have you tried doing horde dungeons or tower with rs? Only comparing raid dmg isn't fair imo

[stoic epoch]

I stand in solidarity with my downtrodden RS brothers

They need help too

[umbral glade]

to quote odie from 30 minutes ago " cherrypicking another class's performance in an area (say, a raid) can just lead us to grass-is-greener situations"

[obsidian vector]

Seems like the man himself gave the answer before I do

[obsidian vector]

I'm used to getting late to the parties 😅

[last bane]

horde dudg by RS + zemi wosn't so bad as beo+cactus, especially God's mountain & ordinary Boss

[obsidian vector]

What?😂😂😂😂
Just think a bit about what you literally texted. Let's compare the BeoA and BeoH for a moment. In one scenario, you grind a TON to get the BiS gears. And then you theory craft to make your build, pick the right specs and pets to dish out the most damage you can.
And in the next scenario, you just pick the meta pet and tamer spec(how original) and go excel the BeoH on dmg output.
Yeah sure, this is most definitely the right way to design a game

[stoic epoch]

Well now hold on

I have grinded out the best pet gear

I've spent years doing so

[umbral glade]

again

we DO NOT want to be the class that does not need gear

[stoic epoch]

I've filled it with the best pet adorns from rare raids

[umbral glade]

we DO want to get great gear and outperform those that do not have it

yes, beoH needs better gear now, we all know

[stoic epoch]

And despite having nearly perfect pet gear

After years of farming

[summer gulch]

You beomax?

[stoic epoch]

I'm behind

[summer gulch]

I hecking love beo max

Though beo gems stack in mulpicutive and not addition like I thought

[stoic epoch]

You should see my pvp setup. Pure beomax pet damage.

[summer gulch]

Same

[stoic epoch]

Seriously though

It's like you think we don't want to put in the effort

But that's not the case yo

[umbral glade]

as i said, that part was fun at level 225-230

[obsidian vector]

It's like GS dilemma tbh. PetBeo starts off very strong because of the near 0 investment but gets behind because there's not much gear that powers you up

[stoic epoch]

That part was forgiving at 225 - 230

[obsidian vector]

But with the BeoH, to be able to do literally ANYTHING, you need gear

[umbral glade]

you need a celestial lute

and items with atk and or magic

and some adorns with offensive split stats

i was critting in the 200k's with just a prom hand lute on base beo

and my beo A gear

lmao

and that was mostly unbuffed

its not like BeoH is gated behind some early access special edition kayne sneakers

[stoic epoch]

https://tenor.com/view/yee-yeedinasour-dinasour-gif-4930781

[obsidian vector]

I don't want my BeoA brothers to be lesser than me. I just want the design to be fair. And having such a power up right from the start just doesn't feel right. In best situation, it'll make the BeoA new GS. And in worst, it'll become too broken with the right gears

[last bane]

Beo needs good gear, but this gear is ward-based, because without it we can't live against end-game content
so we are between "long life against boss" and "pet's damage" witch works less effective than we expected

[umbral glade]

can you stop ignoring the fact that NOBODY WANTS THAT

why are you making up the argument that we want to be insanely strong with farming gear

NOBODY said that

[obsidian vector]

😦

[stoic epoch]

I mean, I wouldn't say "no"

Lol

[umbral glade]

we are legit complaining that we cant use our gear to improve our pet

and you make it sound like we want to just win without gear

[obsidian vector]

But

[stoic epoch]

Long term Beo's have stuck with the class despite there being easier ways to play the game

[obsidian vector]

But

[polar locust]

I want to be as strong and same type have gear that increases my pet damage, but not as low as fey chimera, needs more gear to work around

[stoic epoch]

We just want some parity

Would it be so bad if my 4 year investment saw me clearing raids 80-90% as fast as a similar investment on another class?

[umbral glade]

if i could build a full ashen pion gear set and put it on my pet i would

[stoic epoch]

Fucking seriously

[umbral glade]

i am LOADED on Ashen Pinion

[summer gulch]

My beomax on live, although stat builds and used to AP+golem diety is all it took to 0 me out.

[umbral glade]

and i dont use them

as i only play beoA

[summer gulch]

Baldr is bc its hp soaking

But when I need more stat I'll just fey chimera

[stoic epoch]

Nice!

[umbral glade]

where is your 57% pet stat lute

[summer gulch]

I went c.axe first then got bored with towers

[umbral glade]

oh right you would need to clear towers witht hat

[summer gulch]

Bc farming towers is boring to me

[umbral glade]

i mean, its just combat like other.. you know, combat encounters

[summer gulch]

Yea it's the beoA and beoprime having trouble with some mob stacks

And facing the same mob stack over and over and over and

[obsidian vector]

No, people complained that BB was underwhelming, I've read this post and haven't seen literally anyone complaining about the gears. And the thing is, if you buff the BeoA, that solves the late game problem but it also creates an early game problem (like summoner). If you buff the gears, that's fine but nobody hasn't specifically talked about it except you.

[summer gulch]

I'm just burnt out is all

(And got sick with something big)

[stoic epoch]

Odie seems pretty focused on Bestial Bonds as the fix he wants to implement

[obsidian vector]

Because gear changes is a general issue. This post is about new changes

Which is mostly about class changes, rather than valhallan gears changes

[arctic marlin]

BB is a great idea. Maybe it needs some fine tuning in the exact numbers and types of boosts that it gives, but this is a great first step

[umbral glade]

yes we are talking about the beta patch

[arctic marlin]

Im not sure why there would be disagreement if any

[umbral glade]

saying "bro stop developing that and make me new gear" would be not only disrespectful but also not likely to succeed

[stoic epoch]

Exactly

Like, if this is how Odie wants to fix us then more power to him

[umbral glade]

going from beta patch 1 to beta patch 2 was a big imrpovement

so we got 100% success rate on improving the state of the class

[arctic marlin]

What pet is being 0d

You using pets with high m1?

You can zero a realm and heretic too if they are using the wrong spells

[summer gulch]

I always cactus lmao

[arctic marlin]

That's why

[summer gulch]

Ymir for dieties

[arctic marlin]

And ymir gets 0d?

[obsidian vector]

Imma rewrite it 😅

[summer gulch]

No but it's blight and spells are unreliable sometimes

[elfin rampart]

If Odie's solution to low BeoA damage is Bonds, can we further push it then?
I was thinking of something like Bond level, but additive.

Everyone has Lv.0 bond per default ( all classes )
<T9 Valhalla has Lv.1
T10 Beo and Hydrus has Lv.2
BeoA has Lv.3

Tamer adds +1 Lv of bond.

That way, we can put a 4th level of bonding that would be accessible exclusively by the BeoA, where we could add a power boost.

[summer gulch]

Medusa was and looks solid when not doing weird spells

Solid event pet ngl

[stoic epoch]

I've got Medusa buyer's remorse

[summer gulch]

I thought it hit weak

Then I beomax and it has like 1 skill specificly that slaps hard

[stoic epoch]

Hits weak and its ahybrid which means no gunnr / snotra

[obsidian vector]

But people's suggestion of buffing the BB creates long term problems. And we don't suggest gear buffs so we don't be disrespectful(?). I mean, for me, making false suggestions would be more disrespectful

[summer gulch]

I was doing 40-50k on MM alone with beomax

I am sad no gunnr though

[umbral glade]

magic chakram and full bend hit hard

but full bend also misses hard

and no gaits make it unviable pretty much

[summer gulch]

Odie just loves hybrid dmg pets and idk why bc it nerfs beo being able to gunnr and sno on a lot of pets that would be interesting.

I say as ymir exists

[umbral glade]

also her petrify does low dmg and she spams it

[arctic marlin]

If a pet can hit through a diety with insane defensive gear, that seems fair for beo no?

[obsidian vector]

+1

[umbral glade]

gear changes have been suggested many times, but its very unlikely we would be able to get them right now. So we try to improve Bonds as thats whats being worked on

but saying stop doing bonds and do what i would prefer

is not good

[obsidian vector]

I get that

[arctic marlin]

Yeah I like this. You can get multiple small boosts out of it. And tamer now usable

[umbral glade]

and if a bond ends up op, cut its numbers, change that 1 stat

[summer gulch]

Yes, and I agree there shouldn't be a catch all pet for every class. But cactus for summoner, summoner goes stonewall diety, okay now I'm ymir cus it counters, diety goes summoner and single hit pet does shite all.

It's exhausting

[umbral glade]

bonds seems to be a mechanic that can be fine tuned very easily with small changes

[arctic marlin]

At least you have options that you can switch! If you play realm you are stuck with attack

[summer gulch]

This is such a non issue though, and I'm not pushing for a catch all. That's just selfish

[arctic marlin]

Every class deals with the headache of fighting area control defenders that swap gear constantly to stop you

If there were no way to stop you, there would be no point

So if you can get thru no matter what he throws, there is no issue with beo there in max

[arctic marlin]

Fair

[summer gulch]

Odie says it's not great to compare classes cus grass greener on other side so I'm in that mindset

Tldr idc what realm does I care what beo does

[umbral glade]

remember that we have pvp and pve split balance now, so "but pvp" is no longer a valid argument

[arctic marlin]

Just wanted to make sure this wasnt actually an issue is all

[summer gulch]

I'm learning this mindset ngl

[arctic marlin]

Not really comparing one class to another, saying its the same for all classes

[summer gulch]

Cus it's new with the split

To me

Anyway I do lay into some or new event pets having both mag and atk, despite being interesting really neuter gunnr and sno use and makes a certain pets go from "this seems cool" to "oh I can't use this pet bc it has both phsy and mag"

Main example: bashe is real nice

But mag and atk

[umbral glade]

yea, i've been asking for a call of "dont use atk or mag based skills"

or make smart AI realize "oh he used gunnr i should not use magic based abilities"

[manic nimbus]

I see bestial bonds potential. And I think it will be interesting to see how it develops.

Other classes get better with farming (main point of this game I'd say) so Beo/BeoA truly needs a way that the farm will reward the follower-based builds equally.

I think this would be solved nore easily if we could access gear with impactful pet stats the same way other classes can access gear foe their own builds (be it crit, max mag, whatever they do)

[summer gulch]

Yalalala pumping out a lot of great suggestions

[manic nimbus]

Or yeah gear for pets seem like an interesting mechanic tbh! But player gear with relevant pet stats could fill that hole

[summer gulch]

They are an approved beo in my books

[umbral glade]

💪

[elfin rampart]

Fallen Beowulf Luted Staff:
+350atk, +350mag, +2% ward, +500 pet atk, +500 pet mag

[summer gulch]

I thought a while back after kerb gear odie had on his timeline plans to include more beo (pet) gear but it simply never happened

And I wonder why

[manic nimbus]

I am sorry but i cannot agree

lute!!

😛

[elfin rampart]

Oh, my bad.

[manic nimbus]

Fallen Beowulf Lute ♥️

Ahah

[summer gulch]

Maybe I should have lute and not c.axe for my first celestial wep lol.

But I figured more ward in pve would be safer

[umbral glade]

"Jewel of Soul Linking"
Weapons do not increase your Atk, Mag, and Crit Chance, but increase your pets by 50% of those value's"

[manic nimbus]

As auriga i use an axe to be fair. As hydrus i use lute

[elfin rampart]

↑

[summer gulch]

Oh yea I'm beoA

I always worship my pet style

[stoic epoch]

Brb, this discussion requires a mighty breakfast

[elfin rampart]

Not at this hours, ty

[stoic epoch]

It's always time for bacon

[last bane]

https://youtu.be/cUYSGojUuAU

[stoic epoch]

I was gonna make okonomiyaki but the kids want bacon and eggs

[summer gulch]

Soft or crispy bacon 🤔

[stoic epoch]

Basically burnt to acrisp

[summer gulch]

I'm into crispy myself

My man

It's how you do it

Less you cook bacon on other things

[sick tinsel]

This ain't Bacon Cripyness channel

[summer gulch]

Bacon transcends all channels

It's bacon

Less youre halala

[stoic epoch]

Speaking of bacon

Pet treats

[summer gulch]

I don't think it'll happen

[summer gulch]

Seems too much odie work

[umbral glade]

thats turning pets into treats

[summer gulch]

Oh LMAO

[stoic epoch]

Seriously though, if I could feed my pet a treat for like a 5 turn damage buff

[elfin rampart]

The only possible way to be useful for BeoA

[stoic epoch]

But give it a cooldown

[elfin rampart]

Why not make it a bond ?

[sick tinsel]

Treat idea for pets, I like it

[stoic epoch]

OK, make it a bond

Give me a bond skill

[sick tinsel]

I have Bond Type ideas :

• Healer (Use Pray, Cleanse/Dispel, Revive)
• Warden (Use Ward of .../Divine Bastion, Rempart/Fortify, Mend Wall)
• Booster (Use strong and/or many buffs)
• Debuffer (Apply strong and/or many buffs)
• Mage (Deal damage by using spells)
• Warrior (Deal damage by using skills)
• Hybrid (Deal damage by using skills and spells through Hybrid calculation or not)
• Elementalist (Deal elemental damage by using skill or spells and exploit elemental weaknesses)
• Blaster (Deal damage by using AoE skills or spells)
• Summoner (Use summoning spells)

[stoic epoch]

I like the concept

[polar locust]

Than that would mean that BeoA wouldn't be a sidegrade, but a upgrade from beo base (at least in pet damage)

[elfin rampart]

And a downgrade in Beo damage on its own

[summer gulch]

I won't lie

[elfin rampart]

Where is the problem?

[summer gulch]

Pets with summoning skills feels weird to me

Like summoner summons, beo does pets
Why beo need to pet with summon

[manic nimbus]

Taking advantage of this beo-related channel, I will summarize my opinions on what beowulf "needs" in order to be improved:

• A boost to Ascension Synergy (to make ALs feel a bit more impactful) and increase damage output
• Across the board pet damage increase (either followers base stats or an upgrade to pet stats gear and adornments)
• A call like snotra and gunnr that improves both PET mag and atk and could potentially give -res and -def, Call of Valhallan)

Tie that with bestial bonds and it would be a very good start to improve our beloved class

I am not going to mention removal of redline and replace with other passive because thats a personal pet-peeve of mine and folks dont seem to dislike it

And since I am here and odie might see this... Questing Lute for Hydrus 👀

[umbral glade]

isnt that the idea? so them being better than base beo at pet stuff should be intended?

[magic quest]

Or just buff those orn and xp augments to scale with quality

[manic nimbus]

Dont give them an option!! :p questing lute or nothing! Ehehe

[polar locust]

Eh, makes senses yeah 😅

[elfin rampart]

Extra points for the accurate graph

Without excel*

[stoic epoch]

That'd make sense once the base numbers are good

[umbral glade]

the gait thats both gunnr and snotra at once is not really needed. it could just be a smart AI restricting atk/mag type moves based on your current gait
or a call that restricts one of them

[stoic epoch]

I'd prefer it to be a function of smart ai

[umbral glade]

you could restrict it to "3 instances of increased AI" if its deemed too strong otherwise

opportunity cost

[manic nimbus]

I agree but in the lack of possibility of that (idk, coding? I understand 0 of that) this could be an alternative

[elfin rampart]

Currently, its like this

[umbral glade]

re: the sidegrades. Look at gilga, one is full hp no ward, other doubles down on ward, while base sits somewhat in the middle

[ivory birch]

oh my god i love the graphic

[stoic epoch]

No, base beo still does like 25% of the pets damage even after the valhallan dissonance change

[umbral glade]

yea but thats a topic that we should be talking about

base beo being split pet and player is my ideal world

[stoic epoch]

I agree Yal's graphic is what it should look life

[umbral glade]

pet is still more important than on other classes

but player can smack stuff too

BeoH downgrades the pet part but gets better at singing? hybrid scaling and dealing dmg all around

while BeoA gives up dealing damage themselves for pet strenght

so your "sidegrades" from the celestials lean into on of the big class strengths

while base class is less focused, can lean into a side to some level but not as much as the side grades

[regal bramble]

I support this with all my might

[ivory birch]

I'd also take this opportunity to ask why the hell do calls fail when used by valhallans 😅

[umbral glade]

questing lute talk needs to stop, we agreed on a questing piano

[umbral glade]

gets better with rank2 calls

[manic nimbus]

Sorry but im on the electric guitar side of this discussion

[umbral glade]

but yea.

[ivory birch]

does it..? is it any significant amount above 50%?

[grim whale]

Are calls supposed to failed a lot even when we play a valhallan class?

[ivory birch]

regardless, any fail chance at all sucks

[ivory birch]

it's intended, yeah. good? debatable

[umbral glade]

i think i've seen skadi2 only fail a handfull of times at mostin a good enough samplesize

[ivory birch]

that is so vague 😅

[regal bramble]

Not to have more discussion, questing drums when?

I would love to play my drum while pet obliterates everything

[grim whale]

Just failed 7 times with Brynhild 1

New record for me

[elfin rampart]

Questing electric triangle

[umbral glade]

talking about rank 2 calls

oh god i wish we had more skills on our auriga celestials

they each come with a rank2 call and nothing else

which is a "1 time use per fight at best" kinda skill

fjalar doesnt even need skadi

[ivory birch]

more celestial skills are coming this beta

hopefully good ones, particularly for Realm/Bro

[umbral glade]

havent seen anything about em

do we know them?

[ivory birch]

existing ones are unexciting beyond.. one on realm

[ivory birch]

no, nothing about them

[sick tinsel]

I think that's enough justified complaining for now.

Understand that Beowulf Hydrus is the fruit of many Beowulf mains ideas and help to guide the devs to the right path.

We need to use our experience as Beowulf to correct and improve the new tools Odie propose us, instead of complaining during hours and filling the channel with unorganized ideas.

And that's actually what's happening, we have a new mechanic called "Bestial Bond" that allows new passive bonuses from Followers.
Not every class has access to all bonuses.

Tamer gives access to Level 1 BB
Beowulf Hydrus gives up to BB Lv.2
Beowulf (Auriga) gives up to BB Lv.3

Meaning that the most Pet dependant classes are the only one to have access to BB Lv.3

We are trying to debate if Tamer should stay giving only BB Lv.1 or adding +1 Lv. to BB, giving access up to BB Lv. 4 to Beowulf (Auriga)

But we diverged too far from this subject.

So PLEASE, keep the priorities STRAIGHT, and first help us to determine Bestial Bond, and then start asking for some tweaks here and there.

[ivory birch]

the only ""confirmed"" ""info"" we have is that nyx celestials are getting unique spells (finally)

[manic nimbus]

In order to discuss bestial bonds further, we need to actually see what NF plans for them are and not only placeholder effects

[umbral glade]

a hunters mark type of skill for auriga would be great.
Mark an enemy, pet focuses it and deals additional damage to it

[manic nimbus]

I think its clear that +30% dmg bestial bonds won't solve the issue but we could always test on beta if they get that on beta build

[umbral glade]

Beastial Bonds stacking with Tamer to level 4 (or 5 for all i care) is a discussion we would need a yes/no from the man from

[elfin rampart]

Although I agree 200% with this, yes, we need the NF words on our Feedback

[regal bramble]

I support that, after so much time "suffering" we are having the chance to receive an improvement, this is the best time to align the ideas and leave them in an organized way.

[elfin rampart]

So far, we have odie saying "Why new stuff when we have Bonds"

And thats that.

[manic nimbus]

Despite our complaints, I think we offer good feedback and, at the very least, our feedback from the gameplay point of view

[rugged glade]

We already had, since they promptly changed how BB works

[ivory birch]

I'm a little wary of oversaturating/over-reliance on bonds (and thus tamer) for appreciable output (again)

[manic nimbus]

Well yes but they gave them "placeholder" effects

So theres nothing we can test to be honest

[ivory birch]

feels a little like overinvesting into one mechanic to solve the class as a whole, when the problems (theme/output) should be solved more generally?

as some vague thoughts

[manic nimbus]

Absolutely agreed and many folks pointed that as well.. not sure if it comes out as complaining? O o

[ivory birch]

in a world where Auriga had +3 BB, and Tamer had +1, and lv. 4 BB effects ""solved"" the class, then Beo would once again be locked to Tamer to be competitive

[elfin rampart]

Just adding +x atk, +y mag for followers in a weapon would be more than enough to call it a day

[umbral glade]

what i would consider productive is making a list of "this could be a bestial bond passive" of:
Passive stat increases, temporary buffs, added 'active' skill and added passive skills
and then seperate them into "we would like this", like elemental exploit damage increase and "we would not like this" like max hp%

[ivory birch]

that seems unideal

[manic nimbus]

We "complain" about low damage, actually offer feedback on the points we think need addressing but all we get so far is "BB exists and have potential"

[sick tinsel]

If you want Pet damage to be more reliant and boosted from Beowulf equipment, we can add a bonus in BB Lv.3 where "You transfer X% of Att/Mag from your stat to your Follower"

[elfin rampart]

Grind a better weapon to get better damage

[manic nimbus]

Why not increase pet stats then lol

[elfin rampart]

Because that would be a hard number from level 1 to 250

[sick tinsel]

because it doesn't depend from an arbitrary percent

[ivory birch]

I wonder if stat conversion from player stats is a good solution, as it feels a little like homogenizing beo's gearing like other classes (stacking att/mag since stacking +per stats is obviously inferior)

[sick tinsel]

It depends of the equipment you use

[manic nimbus]

Exactly

[manic nimbus]

Doesn't it currently?

We have +% pet stats atm

That... Are useless for the most part

[ivory birch]

I feel like improvements to smart AI preferring higher damage including buffs -- thus fixing the gaits issue would be a good start

[umbral glade]

it would have the benefit of "equipping offensive gear" actually being a valid option over "equipping mostly defence focused gear"

[regal bramble]

BB is something totally new and "big", we are right at the beginning of the tests too, I think maybe we should wait and see what skills will bring to the class. Of course we can give them a direction, but perhaps what is planned will serve to complement the new content. But I understood your side.

[ivory birch]

have a follower peek into calculated damage ranges and prefer choices that would deal more damage

which obviously means resistances/immunities/weaks are taken into consideration as well

[regal bramble]

What I mean is that things are happening (finally) and we're going one step at a time

[umbral glade]

doing that too strict would mean a pet like medusa would never try to petrify

which also.. feels kinda wrong

[ivory birch]

rather than building beo/a as a player stat class again like the other two dozen ish classes which player stat conversion would do

[umbral glade]

some petrifies are nice, non stop petrify on a opponent thats immune is the issue

[summer gulch]

I rather Medusa use her dmg skills and not petify ngl

[umbral glade]

well then a MEDUSA themed pet might not be the right pick

[summer gulch]

Same with other pets in some regard

[manic nimbus]

As any follower-based build would

We use pets for DAMAGE and not suport

[ivory birch]

I mean yes, but this isn't black and white. It can be tuned appropriately. An easy solution that comes to mind for your situation is "when using a damaging spell, prefer higher damage spells". debuff spells are counted as both debuffs and damage, so petrify would have an edge in the debuff category

[manic nimbus]

And thats why we are stuck to those same followers always

[umbral glade]

you cant just make a medusa, as in "i look at you and you turn to stone" pet and expect it to never try to turn anything to stone

[manic nimbus]

That is one of the MAIN ISSUES with bonds

[last bane]

can someone make DPS-meter for Orna? X)

[elfin rampart]

Why not adding chance to petrify on medusa attacks itself ?

[manic nimbus]

We will NEVER choose a support pet with a cute bond if it is not a damaging pet

Hence why I am skeptic about bonds solving the issue

[umbral glade]

that could be a bond

[manic nimbus]

What more can we say to be clear

Damn

[umbral glade]

i mean, bonds are not just for the BeoA folk

[manic nimbus]

I know and my hydrus part loves it 🤣

[last bane]

Bonds may be really interesting to BeoH, not BeoA

[umbral glade]

so there is a merit in having supporty pets with bonds

[summer gulch]

And at the same point bonds seem to help support pets and support beoH and then bonds that give pet dmg seems very band-aide to beoA exclusively

[sick tinsel]

I only play support pet if Pheonix is nerfed as Beowulf Hydrus because I am the real damage dealer

[manic nimbus]

Bonds are way more interrsting for hydrus than auriga which... Is weird

Since its supposed to solve pet-based builds problems

[elfin rampart]

Maybe change all non-attack spells/ skills into an autocast chance while the pet attacks

[umbral glade]

i am tooting my own horn again, but give me unique spells at bond3

give me spiked shields, aerial barrages, forbid's, miasma 3'S

[ivory birch]

I wonder what's the design space for bonds. Is it "simple" effects such as stat bumps and a skill here or there? Is it "medium" effects, including unique skills/stats? Is it "complex" effects, including entire passives?

I'm confused on how to approach the feedback with bonds because I'm unsure what the "allowed stuff" is, and what the future of them are 😅

I know it's been stated that BB has a lot of future potential, and yes it does, but what does that mean for the here and now?

[umbral glade]

current version of bonds have a active skill and a passive skill as a bond bonus

so that is an option

[elfin rampart]

You can make a bond that tells you whats the Bonds limitation

[manic nimbus]

Thats why we cant do much currently

[ivory birch]

passive petrify chance on Medusa skills would be cool, but that's an entire passive you'd see on a class/spec

[ivory birch]

what's the passive? life siphon? that's no longer passive only 😅

[umbral glade]

that would just mean "bestial bond is now petrify chance" which is fine

[umbral glade]

high alchemy

[ivory birch]

well, that's a unique passive

[manic nimbus]

Again bonds cannot be follower specific

[stoic epoch]

Easier to apply all debuffs would be nice

[ivory birch]

and yeah, bonds aren't follower specific and follower specific bonds aren't in scope so 😅😅😅

[manic nimbus]

Odie stated follower specific bonds are out of the equation which is a huge headache on how to improve bonds lol

[umbral glade]

that was never said. Odie just said "we wont get unique bonds for all 180 followers"

[manic nimbus]

Then what would be the reasoning

[umbral glade]

he never said that a select few unique bonds couldnt exist

[manic nimbus]

Giving a pet a specific one and not other

[ivory birch]

it was strongly implied that the amount of effort for unique bonds per follower was not in scope for this patch

[manic nimbus]

Indeed

[umbral glade]

one is ymir, the ancient dragon of legends, the main antagonist of the draconic era and one is a t3 warg

[stoic epoch]

https://tenor.com/view/because-implication-just-saying-listen-gif-24693508

[ivory birch]

and if it's just going to be singling out one, two, five followers for unique effects then.. how's that determined? it'd be very clearly picking favourites which is unfortunate for many followers' potential =/

[manic nimbus]

Hmm sure but a common green bird is the most used

[umbral glade]

just put them on the "main characters of events"

not every magic card is a planeswalker

but they do exist

[stoic epoch]

Nothing common about Fjalar. It's majestic.

[elfin rampart]

Right now Odie has to deal with a total of 3x Families number of stuff, which is a headache for balance

[manic nimbus]

Its a pigeon that fell on a green paint bucket. Change my mind

:p

[stoic epoch]

https://tenor.com/view/parrot-noodle-smiths-bird-happy-gif-25637887

[elfin rampart]

Why not make it a 3x3 (atk rol, support rol, hybrid rol)

And add the bonds in these

[umbral glade]

imagine we get a mammon follower, or a madea follower, those are special enough for a unique bond, right? some random horse might not be

[ivory birch]

I'd be pretty happy with unique effects for masterforge rarity, but not all unique/event followers are masterforge (think Ymir)

[summer gulch]

Give beoA 5 pets like summoner

(Big jokes)

[last bane]

There can be Family of pets full of Unique bonds, some sort of "Chimeras" artificial animals

[ivory birch]

sure, as long as you can never buff them, they die and they have awful movesets

approved

[manic nimbus]

I dont really like the idea of giving a special bond to x and not to y

Limiting our already limited options

[elfin rampart]

Let us choose the pet rol (?)

[ivory birch]

if rarity was meaningful for pets in literally any way, then sure, being picky re: "unique bonds" seems more okay, but the pet rarity system is completely arbitrary

[umbral glade]

you are not thinking outside of the box.
A special rogue type follower that has "follower attacks 4 times a turn" but has lower base stats to not make it broken just makes them a different flavor

[ivory birch]

rarity does not portray strength, or even uniqueness. Ymir's not even MF, but like.. a banshee from the balor event is

[umbral glade]

tbh, pets should all be at gold cost now

[elfin rampart]

Getting rid of rarities and earn MF pet by killing stuff ?

[manic nimbus]

How can you be sure NF would implement such a pet? I rather solve the classes' issue without resorting to whacky bonds for specific pets

[umbral glade]

it doesnt matter to me being deeper in t10 now, but that was annoying when orns were sparse

[ivory birch]

if some followers are given a unique effect, but not all, then any follower with a unique effect is most likely better than any without, and is very obviously more favoured dev-wise

[polar locust]

👀

Pet evolves itself?

[ivory birch]

I'm fine with that if there's any clear reason in game for that, but there isn't. it's all arbitrary, so it just looks like picking favourites for ???

[umbral glade]

unique bonds = flavor, not power level

[elfin rampart]

Kinda

[umbral glade]

like, we get a fallen Ra the seer pet and all 3 of his bonds are some vision distance

as thats his thing

[polar locust]

The more you use the pet, the more it would increase stats? 🤔 Or would be just a visual upgrade?

[umbral glade]

or a really armoured guy, getting you -10% def at bond1 and bond2 but giving +50% def at bond3

[ivory birch]

okay, but why ra? what's special about him if other things don't get unique stuff dedicated to them