#State of Balance: H1 2023 Discussion

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spark beacon
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Where Leviathan is mixed

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stiff relic
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basically in orna lore, when you level up as a monster from regular mob to boss, you freeze your ass off

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that's what i take away from this

serene hill
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Will steal John's work here but "State of Balance:H1 2023 Discussion"

spark beacon
spark beacon
stiff relic
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^

serene hill
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no you're talking on how elements makes no sense, and also who care about element, just use ultima

spark beacon
obsidian pulsar
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Still don't get how the earth god is weak to lightning. Shouldn't she be like...perfectly grounded? šŸ˜…

spark beacon
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Well Legionnaire is weak to Fire, not Lightning

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Fallen Gaia is not weak at all

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Maybe Demeter is more rock/metal like and can conduct electricity ... well, maybe we should ask Odie for this one. mimic

austere apex
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All the t8 fallen god classes aren't weak to anything, right?

spark beacon
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just immune to their own element

uncut mortar
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The elemental mob weaknesses are the most inconsistent things I've seen tbf

spark beacon
uncut mortar
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You are correct, I never did

stiff relic
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@ anyone from NF, would love some direction guidance on balance patch: reason being with a morri event coming towards the end of this month that's the specific time window folks will do a big scroll drop for a morri. with augments/celestial weapons where they are, there's currently zero incentive/reason to hunt weapons from a morri due to how overpowered celestials are. the concern of a morri weapons being rendered useless was flagged prior to towers and beta but still here we are... so question is, is a morri weapons going to be worthwhile after patch? would suck to drop 1k scrolls on a morri and then have the best item still be worse than celestials.

north urchin
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100% echo this

shadow moat
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A. Morri 2.0 weapons: +3.0x crit mod, +3.0x weakness multiplier. TomatoDevious

zenith oar
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maybe it's just me but i dont think a.morri weapons are useless

timid glen
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Me neither

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You can still dual wield celestial + amorri weapon

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at the very least

stiff relic
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if you don't dual wield (most of melee doesn't), most non-sequencer don't either, a morri is useless

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gilga now defaults to celestial axe, realm defaults to celestial bows, melee deity same

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heretics default to 1 celestial 1 a morri / feral / a.imag / a.kala (so yeah a morri still usable there)

zenith oar
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they already said they're looking into titan augments

stiff relic
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  1. looking into is different than "yeah we want a.morri to be relevant and not clearly subpar"
  2. a little bit salty, but last time before towers was launched it was literally said "dont worry these won't be better than a morri" and look where we are
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if a morri isn't / wasn't that valuable i wouldn't ask. also if hundreds/thousands of scrolls aren't at stake, i also wouldnt ask. also if a.morri was available more than just twice a year in an efficient way (via greater spawn %) i also wouldn't ask.

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no one has to answer, but between not asking vs. blindly spamming 1k scrolls (tbf the ux for scroll usage is excellent now), asking seems like a sensible thing to do

long swallow
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A. Morri weapons were never gilga meta

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Dungeon drop axe is super easy to get so not a great example

untold lichen
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I would've much preferred if Celestial Weapons were made by taking an existing godforged item and making it Celestial. Retaining some of its original properties and opening them up to Titan Augments. Then you'd actually want several. Buuuut 2l8.

long swallow
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AF staff and bow are really the only meta weapons getting outclassed by the crit multiplier

untold lichen
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Outclassed is putting it very lightly

long swallow
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But we know that augment is getting adjusted, so this seems a little doom and gloom to me

raw mantle
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Amorri bow is outclassed by lost art right now as well because of the 25% crit multiplier it got, and celestial weapons make it that much better

zenith oar
untold lichen
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At least Lost Art has an opportunity cost. 4 slots is rough.

raw mantle
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Fixed, still better šŸ˜…

long swallow
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very rough

untold lichen
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4 ashens costing you ~160 from most stats.

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  • the loss of the effects you would've had
raw mantle
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Yeah, once the crit augments are adjusted it won't be nearly as strong. Just figured it was worth including in the conversation since it is tied directly to celestial bow

untold lichen
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Give Dorado 500 base mag and you can hurt my augments šŸ˜¦

waxen oar
gleaming sluice
dapper kraken
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I hope as NF nerf those OP celestial augment, they will also make the rest of the augment more useful

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Cos in totality, the majority of the augments are trash

full barn
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I don't think nerfing prom/selene hands are going to make the others more useful...

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Obviously it depends on what exactly they change.

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Most of the scenarios I can imagine just result in one of two possibilities.

  1. People keep using them
  2. People switch back to other weapons.
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The one way I can Invision people (the classes that use them today) using other adorns is if there was some change like; only 1 of each aug per weapon.

dapper kraken
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Read what i wrote: nerf OP augment, buff trash augment

full barn
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But that probably just results in 2*

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Right like I said, it depends on what exactly the changes are. I just don't think minor tweaks to others will change much.

waxen oar
cedar dock
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It kinda does, if the other "trash" is the next best thing

waxen oar
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Currently

cedar dock
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There's always something best. It's a ranking, first place isn't empty

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It could have lots of competition, or none at all

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But something is objectively the best

waxen oar
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Yes that's the thing

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Something will always be best

cedar dock
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But it should be a close competition

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Not a very visible outlier

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Factions are a good example of this

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They are so close together in efficiency that there's no real reason to tell someone to pick one over the other

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There is an objectively better faction, but it's so insignificant that.. eh

waxen oar
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It doesn't matter

cedar dock
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Then why are you stormforce?

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Objectively the worst faction

waxen oar
cedar dock
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Why are you stormforce on discord lol

waxen oar
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My alts are stormforce

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And most of the people who are stormforce or any faction are because they didn't know what to choose

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Just like how my first faction was stormforce

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That's why my Alts were too

cedar dock
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I seee

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Well, I can say for a fact that not everyone is like you. And that sure, people will always aim for the best. But if the second best is basically as good as the best, some people might use second best

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Be it for convenience, or flavour

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Or anything, really

waxen oar
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If they don't have a choice they will use the second best

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I used Steward golem for first 4 months in endless

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As a realm

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Because I didn't have phoenix

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But if they have a choice then only those people who want to do something different and not efficient will choose the second best

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And everything is situational

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Like briny pendant is the best for realms against chimera, Horseman etc

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But it's trash or redundant when fighting against hel, surtr, achlys etc

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Same with Hels chest vs Riftrogue chest for RS

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Bulwark vs Heretic Robe for Mage builds

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So instead of nerfing things first we need to bring diversity and situations or circumstances which make the use of that certain thing irrelevant or inefficient for that content.

cedar dock
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I don't entirely disagree

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I agree that there need to be situational circumstances that lead to different things being used in different times

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But I still think outliers should be nipped in the bud

waxen oar
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It's because of the content we have

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Like last month

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I used Fey cactus with heretic tamer and amadan staff

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To clear the chaos

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Phoenix wasn't the best in that situation

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So change the content and you will get variety

worn pulsar
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Talking about the difference between magical weapons and physical weapons would be about this topic? Or should there be another separate discussion?

waxen oar
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It would be better for there to be a new thread I think

north urchin
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i remember farming so many ymir and being so happy when feathers dropped

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now i dont even use the gear with celestial weapons. took a lot of fun away from the game

waxen oar
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True celestial weapons are OP

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They shouldn't be usable outside towers

uneven canyon
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Please dont take my celes away šŸ„ŗ

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To reiterate Signets point earlier though, Id love some timely advice on the future of AMorri gear before the event.

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#MakeAmorriRelevantAgain

cedar dock
cedar nexus
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Yes, faction is relevant, but not as much as items. You get summoner gear frequently from the arena, moreso than gear for other classes I'd suspect. That, plus the versatility of GS, plus the fact that GS benefits just as much from most gear as other classes do is what makes it very easy to play. Beo and Diety are also easy to play in those aspects, though Beo being the least versatile of the three.

Niche classes will always be played less than the more versatile classes. That's just how things go. If you want to try to encourage how many people play the less versatile classes, make the armor slightly more attainable or slightly stronger. Please don't make those classes now versatile. I always play rogues. I love rogues. I got to T10 as a thief as got GS before the other T10 classes. I love how strong they are in raids, wish they were stronger in raids, but also don't want to see the class lose that strength in order to have better sustain.

shadow moat
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The summoner gear from arena isn't really worth it to the summoner, especially with fomo event gear being egregiously stronger than base game items for summoner.

wise bramble
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Came by to say, 2 of my areas were taken today by a t7 attuner šŸ˜†

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Just showing how messed up their balance in the game currently is

split temple
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I've had territories taken by majistrate swashes in the past. šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø A T7 being able to whittle down an early T10 isn't a new thing.

wise bramble
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Whittle down is an understatement seeing as this was on a highway

split temple
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low level players can also dot kill people that don't run steadfast/dot immunity gear.

wise bramble
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It's all possible, but very difficult šŸ˜•

split temple
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there are a lot of concerns about T7-9 summoners being overpowered in pve esp. during raiding -- I don't think "an attuner took two territories from an early T10" is one of them.

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(also shoutout to #1084971196749201454 thread)

wise bramble
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I wouldn't call anyone 235+ early, but everyone has their own category ig.
I believe that attuner had a little easier time with the fact I still have my swash load out up, while not running swash.

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But when it comes down to It currently it's best to just switch to GS when you're closing the game for a while

untold lichen
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Early T10 is more a description of your equipment, not level. The stat difference is trivial, but if a 249 was running around with bad gear they're still early T10.

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Especially since RS learns their best skills at 225

fleet locust
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Especially cause stats deteriorate over time as well

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Not sure this is really worth chatting when talking about the entire meta hereā€¦

wise bramble
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Yeah it was merely a note on summoner pvp, which I believe is getting addressed anyway

split temple
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and the counterpoint that "T7 took territories" isn't really a new thing, summoner-specific, or particularly considered erroneous.

fleet locust
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Additionally it is an unrelated non issue if they only took two spots lol

wise bramble
shadow moat
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When I was t7 Archdruid I made it a point to take territory from heavily geared t9s and t10s at the time

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It's very easy to do when the higher tiers fail to address immunities properly

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Attuner may be easier, but if I can spam miasma, sleep dart, and bleed, having summons doesn't matter if the defender cannot take a turn and their follower doesn't have follower stats/buffs to deal damage with

wise bramble
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That could be the case, guess I'll just equip the immunity gear and keep watch it does happen again.
This view of mine does come based from my friend who couldn't do much to me even with DoTs because I'd just heal (nyx at the time), until he changed to a summoner class and managed to consistently take my areas ever since.

shadow moat
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Just have sleep and stun immune, maybe petrify

untold lichen
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Is that new shield Stun+Petrify?

wise bramble
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Ymir + waking then
And maybe smelly shoes?

untold lichen
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Might as well use Ankou

wise bramble
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Anyway let's not derail this one

harsh pivot
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Pile on them! Letā€™s gooooo

serene hill
ruby vector
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We need a melee better sweep not specialisation locked . That s all

serene hill
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no, all screen AOE are tied to spec. what's missing is an equivalent to ara vesta and chained shield, a single target skill that have a chance to hit another enemy.

harsh pivot
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Someone please let me know of a game that adds something ā€œunintentionallyā€ to the game and doesnā€™t fix it for 7 months. Thatā€™s not a mistake or a miscalculation. Itā€™s a whole ass meta. Iā€™m so sick of GS and the delay trying to fix it. Itā€™s a NEW class. Well, was. Nobody has we playing it. As soon as it was unbalanced it shouldā€™ve been dealt with and then taken 7 months to do it right. Or whatever the case may be. 7 months!!! I canā€™t believe it. Even got buffs. Iā€™m having a really difficult time understanding the thought process behind these decisions. I really am.

A huge problem I also think contributed heavily to these type of things is alpha and beta not being 100% mirrored. No point in trying something out if people canā€™t actually see what they could do with it.

If this patch is gonna take longer..please do something quick in the mean time. Counterattack was the fastest nerf Iā€™ve ever seen implemented. Was done terribly imo, but was done quick. Why would CA builds been taken out the game like that if they had a very clear counter? But GS just kept getting buffs instead of being fixed, even with no clear counters.

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Itā€™s just taking waaaaay too long. Some might be less tired, due to less exposure. But trust me, the more exposure you have to it, the more tired you are about it. 7 months is WAY TOO LONG!

serene hill
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it's only a problem in PvP, and it's not that easy to fix. Also remember, NF is a very small team which make it hard to add balancing patch in roadmap as fast as you expect it to be.

dull crown
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Probably because GS' player base is the noisiest, hence, they are heard the most šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø

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Yeah, it has been a problem for quite a while, and i think they just recently tried to take actions regarding to that..

harsh pivot
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Thatā€™s the problem. I donā€™t want a gd full patch. I want that issue taken care of quick. Like CA was. I honestly donā€™t think itā€™s asking too much. On the balance patch, it shouldā€™ve been to get GS balanced properly.

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But

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We are waaaay past that point. The mistakes are adding up. A quick patch shouldā€™ve been done early. Now they have a player base. Too many of them are in it just to abuse, but enough of them arenā€™t. So canā€™t do that now can we?

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7 months is insane!! For a new class!! Itā€™s not like ss3. Odie was alone back then and Gilga had a huge player base when everything went down.

dull crown
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Most people on my guild also switches to GS to just simply try them, after sometime later, they stick with GS both for PVP and PVE (endless, horde boss)

Seems like something is wrong here.

Aaand yeah, they havent take any actions at all (up until the last week or so, which also havent been implemented)

waxen oar
dull crown
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I dont want to point fingers but.. that seems the case for now

harsh pivot
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No matter what, I believe itā€™s very clear. The time itā€™s taken to fix is unacceptable. Pvp is certainly not the most important aspect, but itā€™s the only one that is player to player. The amount of toxicity that has come out of this is crazy.

serene hill
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if it's unacceptable just don't play, no one is forcing you to do so.

harsh pivot
serene hill
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wait for the balance patch then you can enjoy the pvp more

harsh pivot
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Amazing insight. Now everything is clear to me. Lemme just quit

serene hill
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saying unacceptable means NF owe you something, which is not the case.

dull crown
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Lmfao

harsh pivot
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So NF doesnā€™t owe anything to itā€™s players???

waxen oar
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I have invested my time and money to the game.

harsh pivot
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We have been supporting them way longer than you. I love what theyā€™ve done. I feel like my voice can be heard here too, which is truly special.

waxen oar
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I have also tried to make this game more famous by the ways I can.

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So I do think the game also owes us something

serene hill
dull crown
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Have you played the game for 4 years? Idk

harsh pivot
lethal sequoia
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I think the reason why it's taking so long is because they did not want to consider separate pve pvp balancing

harsh pivot
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Ofc I wouldnā€™t like to see the true summoners for through a bad time either. But there werenā€™t any when it came out. This is just a problem that has been allowed to get this out of control.

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Even the celestial weapons are gonna be dealt with in what? 2 months? Ultima augments? Weeks?

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Classes? 2 months?

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GSā€¦.over half a year. šŸ™„

silent topaz
waxen oar
lethal sequoia
waxen oar
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Phoenix? Ban
Critic? Ban
They are still using other classes? Ban

lethal sequoia
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The threads about endless snapshotting and ultima were made by GS mains

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Even though GS uses both of those

harsh pivot
silent topaz
waxen oar
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And they will be least affected by this

lethal sequoia
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True that. BP and ultima kinda feels like budget heretic but summons are just hella slow for raiding so those are your only options

waxen oar
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They can still wear orn gear and get to 200 easily

lethal sequoia
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Snapshotting will definitely hit GS very hard

harsh pivot
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Yup. Endless is definitely impossible without phoenix.

lethal sequoia
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Its the class that gains by far the most from Snapshotting I think

harsh pivot
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GS is the only protected of it

waxen oar
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Nope

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Every class gains from Snapshotting

lethal sequoia
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Without snapshotting you cant use gazers and cant use buffs on them.

silent topaz
waxen oar
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Especially RS.

raw mantle
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Let's calm down the entitlement folks. Believe it or not NF doesn't owe anybody anything - that's a pretty shit way to view the game and the dev team

waxen oar
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There are so many things which needs to be prepare for it

hard kestrel
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Hey y'all
I do very much understand that we all love orna a lot, and we all want what we believe is best for it.
This can sometimes lead to heated debates and arguments over what we believe is best for the game.
But that doesn't mean we need to be hateful towards eachothers ideas or worse, the people themselves.
Just please, keep things on topic, and much more importantly, an open discussion.
Give as much detail on why you think your ideas are valid or invalid.

waxen oar
lethal sequoia
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I just don't like how this is turning into a blame the GS community thread

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Yes we are aware of the unbalanced things

waxen oar
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I don't hate anyone

fleet locust
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Also worth noting they rolled out their largest content and game in the last 7 months in addition to a new class. Itā€™s probably fine it is still going through a rough patch. I mean just look at Beo. It is still not meta after years. It takes time to get things right and some grace is needed.

waxen oar
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But the problem with all these balance talks starts, like this

This thing is very strong I think we need to look into this and then everyone says okay let's nerf it. And they don't say nerf and just use balance because they don't think it's a nerf.

shadow moat
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I do agree the pace is slow, but ultimately it's happening

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Isn't any need to run anyone through the coals at this point

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Go vent in your kingdom chat

harsh pivot
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No. Youā€™re just fine with it taking this long. šŸ™„

silent topaz
shadow moat
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I'm constantly asking on patreon discord for that official survey that's supposed to come first

waxen oar
harsh pivot
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One can only hope. Seems the louder people complain the faster the fix. So yes. I am holding out hope.

shadow moat
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But ultimately I do not decide the pace and neither do you

fleet locust
# harsh pivot No. Youā€™re just fine with it taking this long. šŸ™„

As far as outliers go, we just got solo horde (after a year of chatting), we are just looking at bulwark and adornment with ultima, we are just looking at crit stacking issues, it takes time my guy.

Worth pointing out here that CA cheese started almost a year ago (May) and it was fixed with towers. And was a documented cheese strat. As a long supporter you should know how long it takes NF to balance. There is no need for you to bruise other players just cause you are frustrated.

hard kestrel
# waxen oar I don't hate anyone

Intent and feelings are very difficult to portray accurately through just text.
There's no tonality, cadence, or non-verbal language to help guide your message.
Accurately expressing youe thoughts is hard, especially for a Discord spanning the whole world.
Even if you don't hate anyone in particular, it may not look that way to others.

harsh pivot
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Nothing that I said was wrong regarding CA

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It was cheese. With a very easy workaround

fleet locust
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Gas light my guy. Good stuff

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Peace out āœŒļø

waxen oar
wheat robin
# silent topaz Because some summoners (not you) are exagerating in the nerf stuff department. A...

Um, I wouldn't say GS playerbase wants other classes to get nerfed. I personaly never met such a person but i believe some exist.

As a GS fan since day one I am totally okay with big nerfs to pvp, bloodpact, etc. I just want my summons-doing-damage playstyle (which is what a summoner should be) to be adjusted at t11 level, and nerfed at lower tiers, as this classline really is overpowered there.

shadow moat
waxen oar
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How about this

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Low hp high damage summons for pve

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And vice versa for pvp

rain dust
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Yeah it's kinda unfair to assume that GS people are unaware and ignorant towards the issues that clearly face the class

harsh pivot
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Thatā€™s not what this thread is about. The solutions are probably already thought out.

shadow moat
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Hard to be unaware when it's thrown in our faces whenever we speak up

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Lol

harsh pivot
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And the toxic GS player thing..itā€™s not everyone. But then again, every class has someone like that

wheat robin
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Well sure, that's why I don't see a point of bringing the GS ones up here

harsh pivot
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My issue is the time. Why fix everything? Why delay the GS thing to balance every single detail in the game? I donā€™t think other issues are as prevalent or gane changing as GS unbalance right now. The augments are another really gigantic problem. But so many of those problems are pve related. But augments and GS are pvp. And thatā€™s why theyā€™re such toxic, emotional topics

wheat robin
# waxen oar How about this

What we need is a more reliable way to buff our summons (and heal them up as auriga - who can't use life pacts right now). If this happens - they may be much more squishy for all I care, if i can reactively and reliably buff and heal them

harsh pivot
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Itā€™s always on those conversations that the people ā€œswoop inā€ to insult others. šŸ’€

wooden herald
harsh pivot
shadow moat
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Because to fix GS in pvp, they would need to nuke what we can do in PvE, thus seperation is required. Seperation means that other things must be addressed

wheat robin
shadow moat
harsh pivot
harsh pivot
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All the other pve thingsā€¦people complaining at raid times or damage amountsā€¦that can be dealt at a different pace. Because what ever I do, doesnā€™t affect anyone else.

shadow moat
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That's the problem right now though dude

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PvE and PvP are tied together atm

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So if you nuke PvP while PvE isn't the problem, now you have more problems and no change

wooden herald
wheat robin
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And if we're speaking about age ... Phoenix is way way older than GS

harsh pivot
shadow moat
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In terms of how fast things get fixed?

surreal crest
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is there any interesting discussion in this thread or is it all just summoner talk

shadow moat
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Pretty sure Beos and Gilgas would love to disagree there

silent topaz
lethal sequoia
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I feel that blood pact is only really a problem in pvp

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its really not that strong in pve

harsh pivot
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I donā€™t understand how any of that have anything to do with it. Phoenix is a completely different topic. Pre summoner, all classes use it, except beo and gs

wooden herald
wheat robin
wheat robin
harsh pivot
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And stronger summons open up another box of pandora. The second chance being shot down in every fight

wooden herald
silent topaz
lethal sequoia
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BP penetration is the issue really. Maybe a M1 nerf with a M2 buff could help to nerf it in pvp without shafting it in pve

wheat robin
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Which means they could be weaker at the beginning

surreal crest
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phoenix has a somewhat easy fix tbh
Make Defic Channel 1 and 2 and 3.
There are 3 god classes already.
Red Phoenix could use DC1 with All stat ^
Black Phoenix uses DC2 with All stat ^^
DC3 is self cast only and gives ^^^

wheat robin
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Thus - positively affecting pvp

wooden herald
lethal sequoia
wheat robin
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Have you seen anyone in t10 using fafnir?

silent topaz
wheat robin
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Or Cthulhu?

surreal crest
harsh pivot
surreal crest
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idk if there should be a skill that doubles all your stats to begin with

silent topaz
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Because if the ornate chance is tge exact same as is right now, why should we take longer to farm them than we already do?

harsh pivot
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Other pets?

wooden herald
silent topaz
surreal crest
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challenging content is the reward. Make fights challenging, increase their rewards

harsh pivot
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There will always be a pet used more than the others

lethal sequoia
wheat robin
surreal crest
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I dont want this combat system to turn into an autoclicker

wheat robin
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Yea, meant pets

wooden herald
silent topaz
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Is bp op in pve? I don't think so

wheat robin
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With the pacts enhancing adornments - it is

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In raids especially

surreal crest
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does anybody enjoy clicking 10 buffs then click realmstrikes/ultima 5 times as a combat system?

silent topaz
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Yes

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Very much so

wooden herald
surreal crest
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there are better idle games for sure, melvor idle is very enjoyable

silent topaz
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I'm not asling for buffs (except realm and beo)

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I'm asking for less/no nerfs to stapples that have been a part of the game for a long time

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Bit different.

wooden herald
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I asking for nerfs. If we just buff everything for same level it cause powercreep and even more fomo

surreal crest
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its like an MMO with auto questing and auto combat, if i am not challenged AT ALL i am not enjoying myself
there is no doubt place for content that is ez pz but there SHOULD be content that is hard

harsh pivot
#

What other options do summoners have in pve though? I feel that goes under the radar a lot. Even pvp. There are more options that donā€™t get used a lot because of how broken summons and BP are

silent topaz
#

Ultima

surreal crest
#

clicking the same 10 buffs and the same 1 attack skill in every fight is not hard or challenging

harsh pivot
#

How about Vesta?

lethal sequoia
#

it can work in towers

#

but GS lacks the magic stat and crit multilier to really make it work for raids

#

the only reason why ultima works is because of elysian balance

silent topaz
harsh pivot
#

Then I donā€™t get why are we trying to be so considerate with the BP nerf not affecting pve.

wheat robin
#

Also, summons are only broken in pvp

grand ridge
wheat robin
lethal sequoia
silent topaz
#

Because nerfing phoenix or ultima doesn't make the game "harder". It makes it longer.

wooden herald
surreal crest
hard kestrel
harsh pivot
#

That pisses me off more man. 7 months without a nerf while there are other options.

wooden herald
harsh pivot
silent topaz
#

I could kill arisen morigan at lv 230, just took an ungodly amount of time considering how many times I need to kill her

surreal crest
#

do you not see a problem with "use aphoenix or take twice as long to kill content"

silent topaz
#

I could do horde dungeons effectivelly at lv 230 and fast too. But I couldn't use farming set

surreal crest
#

why have a phoenix in the first place, just half the hp of everything

grand ridge
harsh pivot
surreal crest
#

yea thats the point

#

if everybody has double stats

#

and it sucks if you dont

#

is it really neccessary to force everybody into having double stats

silent topaz
#

So? Then people will use chim or titan

surreal crest
#

why not just give it to everybody

#

the idea is you want to chose WHICH buff you want

#

not there being ONE answer

silent topaz
#

I think more pets should give dc and I think a new pet should give all up2 (raud focus)

harsh pivot
surreal crest
#

i think there should be a viable defensive option, a viable offensive option, a viable utility option

#

like right now

grand ridge
#

vesta is not very good on gs

surreal crest
#

offensive option? phoenix

harsh pivot
#

It wonā€™t be useless. And more likely than not, itā€™ll still be very good

surreal crest
#

defensive? phonix

#

utility? phoenix

silent topaz
#

Could be, I've seem some ideas about ultima that would make it inferior to other spells most of the time

grand ridge
#

vesta is only ok in towers becuase you can do chip damage to things to speed it up

harsh pivot
silent topaz
#

Could also be balanced appropriatly and reduce it to pre-bullwark/achlys lvs

grand ridge
#

itā€™s not an actual option for most gs content

harsh pivot
#

Pretty sure I could make a good Vesta build on summoner. Donā€™t think itā€™s that weak actually.

wheat robin
silent topaz
harsh pivot
#

5k magic is more than enough.

harsh pivot
hard kestrel
# harsh pivot Gold comment. Lol

I'm not sure I understand.
Alting allows you to explore and see the world from a different angle.
Trying different builds that might work in places people don't often spend the time to stay and explore.
Seeing just how strong a certain tier can be. Pushing the limits of what content was thought to be possible for a given player.
Has anyone really tried to make a T5 alt that attempted to push the limits of Endless recently?

lethal sequoia
surreal crest
wheat robin
#

We want it to be summon centred

grand ridge
harsh pivot
surreal crest
#

theres like a million ways to make fights hard beyond increasing their hp pool

surreal crest
grand ridge
#

but also Vesta is under the nerf radar too becuase lol Prometheus

surreal crest
#

prom hands do make vesta more op than it would be w/o

grand ridge
#

ultima is just gonna get hit twice by balance patch

surreal crest
#

path of exile triple dipping nerfs

#

lets go

shadow moat
#

I'd be shocked if Ara Vesta gets personal attention with promo hands already on the chopping block

lethal sequoia
harsh pivot
#

So many useless things under the radar. The big meta-warping stuff stays until we do those useless things. Like phoenix

silent topaz
surreal crest
#

their blogpost implies they that they want a "specific value" of power for all classes and they intent to chop of the top and the bottom and put them back in the middle

wheat robin
surreal crest
wheat robin
#

And what celestials should be about

#

So I agree totally šŸ˜›

silent topaz
surreal crest
#

they have both

#

farmable, easy raids with rng drops

#

and harder, coordinated, effort required content that has guaranteed drops

#

as an example, that boss i linked has a mechanic that puts 12 buffs on himself

#

each buff needs to be cleared by meeting a certain requirement

#

one of them is "deal X dmg in a single turn"

#

one of them is "hit y times in a single turn"

#

one of them could be to "tank a attack dealing N damage"

#

if you fulfill the requirement

#

the buff goes away

#

if you dont clear buffs by a certain turn limit he turns those buffs into "i will end your entire existance" type buffs

#

now you and your party need to coordinate

#

the heretic can ultima off the X damage buff

#

the beo can take the y hits in a turn buff

#

the gilga can tank the hit

#

it needs coordination of a party to clear it

#

in other words, just punch harder while the boss has higher hp than the other raids doesnt work

#

the gacha whales found ways to use 4 instead of 6 players, then 3 then 2 and then they figured out ways to solo it through the strict time limit

#

but that shit was a real raid fight, not just "click realm strike 20 times" fight

#

and again, this is very much an endgame fight, i dont want all the game to be like this. I dont want every fight to be more puzzle than fight, I dont want all fights to be ruthless.
But i also dont want all fights to be UNGA BUNGA realmstrikes/ultima, I do want SOME hard, coordination requiring, effort taking, preparation rewarding hard fight

waxen oar
surreal crest
#

again

#

said boss has a achievement linked to it that unlocked a NPC trade for a guaranteed reward

split temple
#

pandora's box was already opened with the year(s) of power creep -- now a significant part of the playerbase expects raids to be over in less than a minute. šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø
and it goes without saying, the longer it takes the harder this expectation becomes.

surreal crest
#

he dropped a item needed for said npc trade with 100% drop, another chance to drop it at 89% (with the 11% being BETTER) and another 35% chance with the other rewards being usefull but worse

waxen oar
surreal crest
#

no he has all those buffs, if one person of the party does it, the buff drops

waxen oar
#

So you want party play in raids?

surreal crest
#

you dont need different classes necessarily, you just needed different people fulfilling different requirements

waxen oar
#

Hmm, interesting šŸ¤”

surreal crest
#

in that case he was designed for party play

waxen oar
#

So more alting

surreal crest
#

but people solo'd him later

#

or 2 manned him

#

but that required max items and level and classes

waxen oar
#

But it can also work

#

With sharing of raids

surreal crest
#

you could make it "he has 10 buffs that require certain things to dispel" but you only need to hit 5 of them for his 1 shot mechanic to not go off

#

it was just an example of mechanics that could be happening in a game like this

#

other bosses in GBF dont have that mechanic

#

also the reward structure is interesting, which 1 fully guaranteed drop, one high chance drop with alternatives being lower and a low chance drop with alternatives being worse

#

not item drops but materials required to build a item of your choosing, like skyshards

waxen oar
surreal crest
#

not until you got all the items you want

#

as i just said, he drops materials

waxen oar
#

Hmm

surreal crest
#

you needed 10? (iirc) to completely upgrade 1 weapon of his

wooden herald
#

If it drops stuff like realmore, solarire, curse ort it will always to hitā€¦

surreal crest
#

there were 12? iirc weapons in total

waxen oar
#

That's an interesting mechanics you are talking about.

surreal crest
#

later on they added some prestige items that required his drops as well

#

like a skin but you needed to solo him on all classes

waxen oar
#

If it's better than now, everyone will cry powercreep(true)

surreal crest
#

oh at the point he was released it was like celestial weapons right now

#

they are still a stable of weapons (GBF only has weapons, no other slots, so think about it like a generic piece of equipment) to this day

wooden herald
surreal crest
#

people farmed it because it was FUN to figure out the fight

#

it wasnt like you clicked 200 summon scrolls and had to fight him 60 times

waxen oar
#

This will also help with variety

surreal crest
#

this would be more of a guild raid you cleared once a week

#

again, this was just to show "how do you make this game hard w/o the boss just having more atk and hp"

#

there are mechanics that can make a boss hard and fun
AND
that boss loot can be more than "hope the one item i want rolls 190% or higher"

silent topaz
#

That would be alt play up to eleveb

cedar nexus
#

If you want to balance something, balance this. 15min stalemate with a diety in the arena. If it was a player he would have crushed me, but instead of attacking often he kept restoring 75k ward even though he didn't need to. His attacks were doing 60k each to my chimeras

Screenshot_20230407-133439.png Screenshot_20230407-133733.png Screenshot_20230407-134351.png
#

My chimera normally hit between 7k-22k depending on armor. They were hitting him for 7k at most, he resisted blight/poison/frozen a lot, was one to every other status effect, resisted the elements seen there, was immune to stats šŸ”½ and T. stats šŸ”½, and his buffs stayed up longer than normal. Not sure how he could have that high attack/def/magic/res/HP/ward AND have all of those status immunities PLUS status protection, but it seems broken. Items make the class, and that proves it.

uncut mortar
#

That's just a well-built Deity to me

#

Also you gave the guy enough time to buff up defenses

stiff relic
#

Perfect territory defenses

cedar dock
#

I mean, you're doing a coliseum. Floor 12 stat boosts, plus a decently chonky deity

#

Deities have steadfast

uncut mortar
#

Also yeah Coli isn't really a great metric to base things on since enemies get raw stat boosts per Floor

#

I didn't notice this was a Coli until you mentioned it

cedar nexus
#

It's the best metric. If you want to bring balance you should look at the extremes and see how far off they are of where they should be. I've completed 12 coliseums before and failed plenty of others as RS, and I've never come across anyone so tanky. It's broken

silent topaz
#

The fact that you beat 12 coliseums is the problem with balance wink wink

#

And failed plenty with RS

cedar nexus
#

Nah, that's not it. Versatility of the class vs niche.

silent topaz
#

It's almost like a certain class is unbalanced at lower lvs in pvp

cedar nexus
#

There are people who have played the game less than a year and have gotten above floor 350 in endless

uncut mortar
#

You let a defensively built Deity on Floor 12 buff Defenses and get Deific

It's perfectly normal for any Deity to 0 out attacks from most Summoners with those buffs alone

shadow moat
#

Eeeeeyup

cedar nexus
#

Which is why it's concerning that he could be so tanky and immune while also dealing 60k damage with a single turn attack

#

I've been up against many celestial dieties that were easier than him. He has the items, and items are what breaks the game

uncut mortar
#

Again, you're in a Coli run where players get stat boosts. You shouldn't judge the state of a class because of one encounter where your opponent was clearly at an advantage from a mechanical standpoint.

cedar dock
#

Each tool has its own uses.
Summon based damage is very prone to getting zero'd out

#

Bloodpact is the play if dealing with high defenses

shadow moat
#

Summons are easy to 0, especially in coli, and even more especially from deities.

cedar dock
#

Just because you hadn't encountered a counter to your build before, doesn't mean they don't exist

cedar nexus
#

He's immune to most status effects. That's how I stop them from buffing up

#

You have to make sacrifices to be versatile. He didn't have to sacrifice much

silent topaz
#

That awkward moment when chat realizes gs is so good in pvp it runs coliseum without bp šŸ˜œ

uncut mortar
#

This guy had a 60% raw stat boost from being a Floor 12 encounter

#

Those are stats comparative to an AL60 Deity

cedar nexus
#

I've been against Ara on floor 18 and a tanky Gilgamesh on floor 19

#

Neither of them were anywhere nearly as strong or well rounded as this guy

uncut mortar
#

Gilgameshes build Ward, not Defenses, that's a solid difference

shadow moat
#

All running prism wall, DC, and full ups?

uncut mortar
#

Most high-Ward options for Gilga don't offer much in terms of Defense or Resistance

cedar dock
#

Prism is probably from FYeti

uncut mortar
#

Yup

cedar nexus
#

The Gilgamesh yes. Over 100k ward and hit like a tank, but he took damage and wasn't immune to much

uncut mortar
#

Prism is most certainly FYeti

shadow moat
#

Yeeeee

#

You're running chimeras

uncut mortar
#

100k Ward at Floor19?

shadow moat
#

So prism wall halving your damage there

#

And that's pretty low for Gilga

uncut mortar
#

That must've been a weak af Gilga lmao

cedar nexus
#

I switched to full chimera because they deal more damage. Started out with 2 kelpie 3 chimera

cedar dock
#

My AL0 gilga has almost double that

#

That's pitiful

uncut mortar
#

I have 210k as AL19

shadow moat
#

I have had more than that as GS

uncut mortar
#

Man imagine me at 390k on Floor19

#

Probably still would be destroyed by a GSum

cedar nexus
#

It's not a measuring contest. It's about balance

cedar dock
#

Ahem. Anyhow.
If the deity truly was immune to all statuses, it'd have to be wielding a crystals to be immune to stat downs as well

shadow moat
#

And we're telling you that you've been properly balanced against.

uncut mortar
#

Again, Colis are not a proper balance measure IMO

cedar nexus
cedar dock
#

If it wasn't wielding a crystalis, then an ONC + Gadget. But that'd be one less accessory for immunities

#

Which would lead to not being immune to everything

#

Just maybe everything you had

uncut mortar
#

In one screenshot Blight clearly works

cedar dock
#

So briny ain being worn

silent topaz
#

Does the gorgon protection work on stat debuffs?

cedar nexus
#

Sleep, stun, paralyzed, toxic

uncut mortar
#

Not the best one, but then Poison could probably be applied as well

cedar dock
#

If blight and poisoned work, so would toxic

uncut mortar
#

You absolutely sure Toxic is in the list?

cedar dock
#

Chimeras can apply toxic

cedar nexus
#

Rarely got poisoned, blighted, rot, and frozen

silent topaz
#

Steadfast is a thing though

cedar dock
#

But they have low chance

uncut mortar
#

Steadfast my boy

cedar dock
#

That's just steadfast, which half the classes have

#

Gilgas and heretics too

silent topaz
uncut mortar
#

Unless it clearly says in the log that they are immune, they are not

silent topaz
#

Rarely

cedar dock
#

Not even a gearing thing. They're just built different

silent topaz
#

For all we know he was wearing full phoenix and 20 gorgon eyes

uncut mortar
#

I'm genuinely not barring that possibility

cedar nexus
#

3 years ago I started playing this game. The entire time a diety has held control of 90% or more of my city, and now I'm taking lots of territory from him. It's a good daily fight back and forth, and I can apply status effects to him much more easily than this guy. He and I constantly change our items trying to outplay the other

#

I was taking territories as RS because he had more res in his build probably trying to fight off someone else. As GS he's gotta have def and res to defend against me, which gives me more of an edge. That guy in coli though could solo a kingdom taking on 10 T10 players at a time. You can't call that balanced

#

Items are what unbalances the game

#

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it. Classes don't need to be touched. Items a need to be

uncut mortar
#

Out of curiosity, can I see your loadout?

cedar nexus
#

It's high res and summon stats. That's what helps me keep my territories around here. 2% health Regen amity

waxen oar
#

There's no other class which is capable of doing it regularly as you stated.

#

GS clearly outclasses every class in PvP and that's a fact

cedar nexus
#

Because of items, or the lack thereof. How many T10 thief, warrior, mage, or Beo gear can you farm from the arena? What about summoner?

#

I'm not saying that's my gear for coli, but because of the versatility of the class you can mix and match what you need with gear that's available for all classes and have a well-rounded defensive set. The other classes just need a slight buff to their strengths through items, whether the items are slightly buffed or slightly easier to obtain, and you'll see more people changing their class for different parts of the game

silent topaz
#

I don't follow: "The other classes just need a slight buff to their strengths through items, whether the items are slightly buffed or slightly easier to obtain"

#

Are you saying the game is fine? The items need a buff? They need a nerf?

#

As Sore pointed out, altough gs loses at raids and hordes, it is very good at pvp. No other class can do coliseums with the ease at t10 as gs can. It is super fair that deity (the tankiest class) can be built and buffed to zero any unbuffed summon damage. And even then (for now) you can use blood pact with a nekro staff and riftsummoner helmet and one shot at lot of high defensive deities.

gleaming sluice
north urchin
#

People complaining deity is too broken really have no idea how much effort it takes to build a strong defense build

#

You need high stat 190+ amorri gear plus synergizing amities and weaponry

#

At this point of the game, it should be fairly easy for BP to kill a deity especially if u get first turn

#

If it doesn't kill, just use BP again. And again. And again

cedar nexus
#

You guys keep acknowledging that the gear makes the diety and GS strong. You like a class and have a biased view towards the other classes. I like RS. I wish it was stronger, but I know I need better gear. It's easier to use Beo, Diety, or GS with pretty good gear, but it didn't need the best to do well. Thanks for time and again proving my point even with your biases

dull crown
#

gear makes GS strong? interesting

split temple
#

yeah I must be playing a different game

cedar dock
split temple
#

GS doesn't need gear to be strong in pvp.
#1084971196749201454 has already covered ~everything brought up already so idk why it's being repeated here.

obsidian pulsar
#

Does gear make GS strong? Seems like the get most of their power from gear through passives or non-quality driven stat boosts, without enough options to really make them a gear driven class.

split temple
#

Also sad to see people are still accusing others of being self-interested, again and again. No point in discussing anything when there are people that don't want to discuss things in good faith.

zenith oar
lethal sequoia
#

That'd be nice

split temple
# zenith oar sounds like summon stats bonus should depend on item quality to make them a gear...

the ratio of class/spec power to gear power could lean a bit more toward gear.
additionally, the hp/def/res/ward on the armor pieces should probably matter more than they do now.

max summon stats rn is:

  • GSA +220 (class)
  • Bene +130 (spec)
  • Amity +30 (gear)
  • Celstaff +68 (gear)
  • Offcharstaff +42 (gear)
  • Goathat +12 (gear)
  • Atepo/Olymp +10 (gear)
  • Riftboots +15 (gear)
    class 220, spec 130, total from maxed out gear 177

realistically people would probably not have the amity (because they need something more important like autoward), and would probably run a shield instead of double weapons.

follower stats has a somewhat similar pattern.

#

On pvp offense you don't need anything like that anyway. Offense you just press BP and go next.
On pvp defense you probably just run max protect% to drag out territory fights, or ward gear with autoward to try and survive aoes/chains.

north urchin
#

It's a discussion. Ppl have different opinions and that's ok

silent topaz
# cedar nexus You guys keep acknowledging that the gear makes the diety and GS strong. You lik...

Several people who main/like gs told you wrong. They were not biased. The fact that you take issue with a well geared diety zeroing summons (not summoners) in a balance thread is weird. What do you wish for? For unbuffed summons to run completly unchecked? For poorly gearely gs (or any other class for that matter) to be able to do coliseums consistently?
The problem with early t10 gs, and much more so with attuner and t9 summoner is that players without knowledge or good gear can curbstomp other classes. You should not be able to win 12 coliseums with your gs (when you couldn't win 1 with rs). But to be fair, coliseums are too hard to do without alts and we could probably do without the stat buffs by floor lv.

surreal crest
#

If a well geared, full defensive character can't 0 out badly geared/underleveled characters or at least heavily reduce their damage then defensives are not worth taking at all and we should be talking about buffing defensives.

#

at that point you may as well give every character a "congrats you won" button

silent topaz
#

Agreed. Defensive playstyle should be viable and not just in pvp.

wise bramble
#

The big issue is the summon protect chance and their unchecked damage. I've never seen my or anyone else's summons 0'd
You either 1 tap the summoner turn 1 or you die 96% of the time.

#

Well, you'd maybe have a turn or 2 extra if you went full on ward and defenses.

silent topaz
#

But I'd also like to point out that offensive risky playstyle should obviously be faster than defensive playstyle.

lethal sequoia
#

in pvp

surreal crest
#

here is the problem for me. Never once have i entered a summoner pvp fight and thought "yea let me just quickly kill his hydra and then i'll kill the summoner". Its always "i hope this goes through on the summoner / AoE the summoner

#

unless you are going in unbuffed and hit 200k ara vesta's turn one

#

you never consider killing the summons

silent topaz
#

You can kill the hydra first in 1-2 turns if you have good defenses and then kill the other summons or the summoner.

#

Sure ara vesta 2 as long as it crits is a better choice, but those that don't have it can focus on killing the hydra first

surreal crest
#

(i should say that i play beo) do you really go in, see a 300k hydra and think "its a viable option to kill that thing first"

silent topaz
#

Yeah, before ara vesta I used to ultima the summoner and when the hydra protected she went down

#

(You could also go for a 1 turn spell/skill 2 times)

surreal crest
#

okay i guess thats just a "lmao your class cant pick a target it wants to attack" problem then

wise bramble
cedar nexus
cedar nexus
# silent topaz Several people who main/like gs told you wrong. They were not biased. The fact t...

I did complete it once as RS. The thing that stopped me from doing more was the amity that helps someone survive a 1shot. Beo surviving a 1shot with that RS build usually means you're going to die on his turn to his pet.

Like I've already said, for classes like RS some things are heavily dependent on gear. Switching to GS I could run some tanky gear that's pretty great, but it doesn't have to be specific pieces of gear for specific buffs to work on GS or diety.

#

@cedar dock seems like you missed my first post.

cedar dock
#

I did in fact miss your first post

wise bramble
#

Simply because GS is 1 million orns more expensive (which turns into pocket change in comparison later, and is pretty easy to get even at early t10) doesn't mean it should be able to topple most other classes

untold lichen
#

I'll play an extra 100m orns to unlock RS if it got to be the undisputed king

wise bramble
#

I think people would pay real money just so their preferred class can be the best

cedar nexus
#

Again, I don't think it topples other classes by design. I think the lack of items are to blame.

20 years ago I played a top-down MMORPG that was insanely fun, Dransik. It was bought, changed over the years, and is now Ashen Empires. I only bring this up because it's game balance. At first, daggers were king because of how many times you could attack per second. You'd run by your enemy, get 1-2 stabs, then run out of his range so he couldn't attack, and repeat. It wasn't ideal for PvE because the bigger bosses had greater range so you'd still get hit. Each time they changed something small a different weapon class became king: pole arms, blunt weapons, axes, bows, magic. Each time there was a shift was because new, slightly more powerful items were introduced. Each time there was an expansion with new items, the max level was also slightly increased to being about newer and stronger monsters for those already at max level to struggle with. Eventually the gap between the previous lvl cap to the new gap (10 lvls higher) grew exponentially each time it was raised, much like in WoW.

I don't want to see that happen to Orna. This game is amazing and by far the most fun mobile game I've ever played, and more balanced than a lot of PC games I've played.

I haven't played through T7 with summoners, but at T10 they appear balanced to me. Again, I think balancing them against other classes in T10 comes down to gear. I'm only lvl 234 and I've been beating a lvl 250 GS who's defending territories because of gear. If this effect was available on gear for other classes I'm 100% sure you'd see the Diety and Heretic quickly go to the top of the PvP leaderboards. This gear might be too strong against a T7 summoner, so why not limit their summons? T7 could be restricted to 2 summons on the field, T8 could have 3, and T9 could have 4.

Screenshot_20230408-100438.png
surreal crest
#

here is my counter point: the game dev's said they are not, based on objective data

cedar nexus
#

Again, I firmly believe that new gear with unique effects like this for weaker classes, like RS, aimed at fortifying their strengths would help bring them up in PvP. You could have thief gear that gave a chance to increase the crit damage to an enemy who had full health, or to negate an enemy staying alive with 1hp on a critical hit

surreal crest
#

if its just "gear can fix it" are you still playing a class or are you playing a gear set

#

you need a little bit of option A and a little bit of option B

#

or you end up with "hey how can I do this content on RS" and we gotta answer "just get the sword of RS balance from the event 3 months ago"

cedar nexus
#

The class is utilizing the gear, not a gear set. You don't use the same gear in endless as you do for raids or PVP

surreal crest
#

gear can do some nice things, its great to have something to look forward to farming besides exp, thats why AL works as a goal for players

#

but that can't just fix everything

cedar nexus
#

It can help fix the 5 tiny daggers of the GS

surreal crest
#

for me, gear should do 1 of 2 things: Fix a flaw of a class, like: help make the glass cannon not die OR amplify the strengths of a class, like: make the glass cannon deal more damage

#

afterwards we can get into things like build enabling items, like a staff with a special summon or a sword that ignores defense or something

#

but it should never be "equip this and your class is balanced, if you dont have it you kinda fucked"

cedar nexus
#

Having 5 pets that you get to choose is hard to balance. The only way you can do that without unbalancing the PvE aspect is items

surreal crest
#

but.. thats not true lmao

#

its not like this is the only game with pets or summons

#

June 18 2009: Split of spirits and chants to PvE and PvP versions. PvE versions buffed to increase usage.

#

thats when guild wars 1 split balance

#

between pvp and pve skills

#

thats nearly 14 years ago

#

the blue print to handle this has been around for 14 years, NF is considering a split of pvp and pve balance, which will make this much easier

#

and thats me not talking about the guild wars 1 "Smiter's Boon Incident"

uncut mortar
#

I'm not going to say that items are the issue. The power creep is there, yes but it's not due to gear. They haven't been powercrept since Blackeneds were introduced (although I'm likely missing something)

#

And even then, it's not about the equipment itself but the Adornments. Then the Celestials came but we know something is going to be done about it since they're not meant to be upgrades to existing gear options

surreal crest
#

okay, i want to talk about the Smiter's Boon Incident.
It was a skill that made certain set of support skills, that also deal damage ALSO heal players for a big amount. They tried to balance it but it was op regardless.
So they eviscerated the skill. They gave it 5x the mana cost, 9x the cooldown and reduced the buffs duration from 30 to 5 seconds.
So the skill costed 70% of your max mana, had 90 seconds CD instead of 10, and only lasted 5 seconds.
They said they dont know how to balance this single skill, so they ultra turbo nerfed it so bad it would never be used again.
Anyways, doesn't really matter but it's a core memory of game balance for me ever since mighty_mimic

fleet locust
#

Please donā€™t fix class issues with gear. I only have so many gear slotsā€¦

silent topaz
# cedar nexus Again, I firmly believe that new gear with unique effects like this for weaker c...

That already exists. Queltz helmet for thief increases crit multiplier. Status effects more or less already take care of opponent surviving steadfast. Not many people use parapeet amity (most I've seen were realms because no SECOND CHANCE - not steafast). Imo, realm needs a thief skill with high m1 and crit (if I had my way it would be a 2 turn skill called amitlu with all elements damage and 2.4 weakness multiplier) and sweep needs a small buff.

gleaming sluice
#

I think sweeps in a good place right now

waxen oar
#

Nope

shadow moat
#

I disagree. Sweep needs help

gleaming sluice
#

Ok but hear me out 3 attack buffs and it kills everything in one hit at Al 10

surreal crest
#

which what gear

#

orn/exp boosts or damage

rain dust
#

It definitely requires much more effort than heretic mages dance spam

harsh pivot
#

As it should

shadow moat
north urchin
#

i think the argument was that sweep could be increased by elemental boosts

#

though i don't understand why but dancing always feels like more dmg

shadow moat
#

Cuz non-elemental damage

#

No immunes or res

mortal summit
#

better damage multipliers too, and the additional status effects help a lot too

zenith oar
#

what are those better multipliers?

#

and what status effects?

split temple
# zenith oar and what status effects?

Lull at least (from bard spec), though stun from Zwei spec competes favorably there.

Elemental enchanted staves giving status procs, whereas elemental enchant on weapons is fixed based on enemy res/immunes.

#

Idk. Dance/pavane and sweep aren't... good. Stuff like AV2/CS is the way forward.

'hits all enemies' aoe without some massive downside that prevents it from clearing 1shot threshold is and has always been a mistake. A black mark worth scrubbing.

#

Odds of NF changing it seem extremely low. It's such a shame.

zenith oar
#

i too enjoy hitting 25*4 enemies 1 by 1 mimic

raw mantle
#

The only place the difference is really felt is in T10/T11 dungeons where everything and its brother has an elemental resist of some kind

#

Not being able to use an affinity effectively cuts into the effectiveness of Sweep quite a bit

waxen oar
north urchin
#

why can't sweep just be made like dance except using atk

#

i don't understand

#

make this nonelemental dmg and similar M1/M2, problem solved

surreal crest
#

if every skill exists in atk and mag, why even have atk and mag

#

there should be a difference, but it atleast needs to be similar

#

but if everything is the same its just boring

waxen oar
surreal crest
#

agreed

waxen oar
#

Casters are just better in almost everything compared to their counterparts.

surreal crest
#

nbut just saying make the skill for both atk and mag

#

isnt the solution

north urchin
#

what is the solution then

waxen oar
#

But melee class have suffered from lack of aoe for very long

north urchin
#

what if AOE could crit šŸ¤”

waxen oar
#

If melee class also had good aoe, we wouldn't have been having this conversation

#

And why is the mana required for melee aoe skills many times more than mage skills?

waxen oar
surreal crest
#

players dont have much tools for horde's, our options barely grew since horde fights have become THE content

#

we just recently got 2 target cleave

waxen oar
zenith oar
#

arrowstorm is 80 :)

waxen oar
waxen oar
surreal crest
#

melee could get something like "single target hit, overkill damage on the first target gets redirected to the second, then third and so on"

waxen oar
#

It doesn't even have good damage

north urchin
#

ranger would be cool if the arrowstorm dmg wasn't divided in horde

zenith oar
#

it actually does if you wanna try it

surreal crest
#

like hexacut, what would you say if its like, "once a single blow kills the enemy, the remaining hits get transferred to another target"

waxen oar
#

Smellies and berserk mushroom + zerk 2

#

While my heretic 14al does much more damage than my 44 al RS

zenith oar
#

yeah yeah, you use every buff and it still sucks compared to 0 al heretic

#

i've heard it before

waxen oar
waxen oar
zenith oar
#

this is besides the point tho

waxen oar
surreal crest
waxen oar
#

Why does one class needs just basic gear to do more damage than someone 30+ al and using every buff to get the same damage?

zenith oar
#

your point was that is doesnt do good damage since it splits
but when i tried it it's enough to kill bosses

surreal crest
#

ara vesta is a celestial class skill, so hexacut could be the melee version

waxen oar
#

Vog or dragon events

zenith oar
#

sure T11 or vog have too many res/imm, i agree

north urchin
#

separate discussion, but what if NF intended for melee to be inherently inferior at AOE? traditionally, mages in folklore were better at field, AOE spells

lethal finch
#

they did

#

originally

waxen oar
#

And why does it even need to be 80 mana for arrowstorm 2 and sweep 140?

lethal finch
#

that got walked back somewhat

#

hence Sweep getting added

waxen oar
#

But a 30al+ more buff should make that equal

#

That's why balance

gleaming sluice
gleaming sluice
gleaming sluice
mortal summit
surreal crest
#

they lost focus on balance as player got better gear and more skilled at the game while they developed towers and everything with it

#

now they focus on balancing for a while

#

they arent a 50 man team with dedicated balance teams

mortal summit
#

there are 5 classes. why do you need an entire TEAM to balance that?

surreal crest
#

5 classes x 400 skills x 100 pets x 4000 items x ascension levels x amount of players

#

there are a lot of possibilities

cedar dock
#

First of all, let's calm down with the tone here, thank you.

#

Secondly, the team is small, and most of them aren't dedicated to gameplay. Covyn works on the art, Dangy works on the community, Purrley works on marketting

#

With that in mind, the one-or-two people working on the balance are also the people working on future content, and it is hard to be doing both at once

surreal crest
#

dota and league and overwatch and wow and so many more are billion dollar games/companies and they also struggle with balance

mortal summit
#

league balance has been "release overpowered hero -> 3 months later nerf hero and add to regular pool that can be bought with in-game currency" for almost a decade.

surreal crest
#

and its made them the biggest game in the world

mortal summit
#

clash of clans is like 100x bigger dude

surreal crest
#

also if you are implying that league is p2w due to that

#

you are not being serious

#

and how does that argument work for dota

#

which is f2p

#

no heros can be bought

surreal crest
waxen oar
mortal summit
#

I never said anything about fast or slow.

surreal crest
#

right, you said why is the game unbalanced, there are just 5 classes

waxen oar
#

Then it must be because they literally didn't know how bad the situation was?

surreal crest
#

which is hilarious

mortal summit
#

I implied that they didn't need an entire dedicated balance team.

north urchin
waxen oar
#

I mean since the towers came they have worked with the community and conversed with us about the problems faced by different classes in different content.

north urchin
#

like a counsel to make it easier on the dev teams

mortal summit
#

half the challenge is getting to step 1 of the Alcoholics Anonymous problem -- admitting that there is a problem.

surreal crest
#

we just had 2 blog posts and a survey to help them with that

waxen oar
mortal summit
#

steps in the right direction, yes.

surreal crest
#

i also never seen odie or somebody else say "this is perfectly balanced, you are wrong"

waxen oar
#

As most of the games don't have any channel where players can directly convey their problems to Devs

surreal crest
#

they are likely the first to admit there are problems

waxen oar
#

This is the first game I saw where they asked us directly

waxen oar
mortal summit
#

devs interacting with the player base is a normal thing in most games with devs who care.

waxen oar
surreal crest
#

game balance is hard, even if YOU dont think it is

mortal summit
#

I never said it was easy

surreal crest
#

you made it sound like it is

mortal summit
#

you keep putting words in my mouth and treating it as a strawman

waxen oar
#

I would be willing to wait patiently and calmly if we get weekly or bi-weekly updates on the balance issue.

mortal summit
#

I don't believe they are far enough for that sort of approach to be helpful. there's still some philosophic stuff to be straightened out.

waxen oar
mortal summit
#

we have information on what is too strong, but very little into "why" and "how did we get here"

#

from the blog posts and feedback

surreal crest
#

bi-weekly updates on balance sadly dont pay bills

#

new content does

waxen oar
mortal summit
#

those are the really hard ones, an excel spread sheet can balance the numbers

surreal crest
waxen oar
#

Ooh

mortal summit
#

again, alcoholics anonymous process is 10 steps, because it's a hard thing and there isn't a perfect answer -- it's not a math problem with a clear solution

north urchin
mortal summit
#

first is admitting that you have a problem...second...uh, sec I need to look that one up. never made it that far

#

oh boy they've changed it to 12 steps

#

used to be 10

north urchin
#

šŸ˜®

mortal summit
#

step 2 is belief that the problem can be fixed

cedar dock
#

NF are aware of a lot of the reasons that lead to the current state of things. They're discussed often in the discussion threads, and they're not blind to them either.

#

It is obviously a mixture of many different things, including but not limited to, overtuned augments, abused multipliers that were not meant to be used together, asymmetrical ascension advantages, (...)

mortal summit
#

and time spent working vice time spent shitposting on reddit/discord

north urchin
#

towers came out not long ago. balancing is just a part of the game. and with each patch comes another challenge

surreal crest
#

if you could work and have fun at the same time, would you?

mortal summit
#

depends on the pay

surreal crest
#

how entitled is it to blame people for enjoying themselfs lmao

#

how dare you have fun instead of buffing my class

mortal summit
#

90% of what I see is calling for nerfs, and the one guy who posts that everybody else should get buffed gets ratio'd to hell m8

#

also the ashen phoenix discussion thread

surreal crest
#

a healthy medium would be nice, bring up the bottom performers, chop down those who overperform

#

that is what the blog post about data gatherin was about btw

#

that system to objectify stats

#

lets them fine tune things

#

guild wars 1 had a similar system: Every skill had a certain power budget, lets say 100. Some skills had very high values in mana cost and cooldown, taking up most of their budget, so their dmg sucked

mortal summit
#

that is fine to identify what clas/specs are overperforming or underperforming, yes, and we are there -- but it doesn't get to "why" they are overperforming, and how did we get to this situation where they overperform when they weren't a year ago.

surreal crest
#

it could also be a very high dmg skill, but its mana cost sucked

#

their new metric does something similar

#

the stats they showed are not all the stats they can gather and objectify with it

#

i am sure they have a "damage done per skill to raid bosses" stat

#

that shows ultima is crazy

#

they just showed a new way they will gather info now

#

which they said they didnt have

mortal summit
#

there's more to it though, there's a lot more complex interactions between the mechanics than a single skill

surreal crest
#

which in return means they have an easier time balancing now

#

yea but you need to, objectively, determine where the problem is before looking into what makes it a problem

mortal summit
#

would ultima still be "too damaging" if blue lining was toned down? if it had reduced damage if non-god classes used it? the list goes on

surreal crest
#

the eye test says phoenix is too good, yes, but you cant justify smaller things with eye tests alone

harsh pivot
surreal crest
#

they just showed a way to collect data, they didnt release their spreadsheets of "everything regarding game balance"

mortal summit
#

the problem isn't necesarrily one thing, there are a lot of mechanics that come together to create that. if ultima 1-shotting people in pvp is a problem, but ara vesta 1-shotting people in pvp isn't, then one has to ask if that is missing the mark entirely.

harsh pivot
#

Game is wonky currently. Hoping for the best with patch

lethal sequoia
surreal crest
#

be honest, you want toll roads, everybody who runs into your areas has to pay you gold/ornn/mats

mortal summit
#

sounds like an invitation for spoofers to take over and get even more rewards for doing so

waxen oar
harsh pivot
#

Disagree big on that one.

waxen oar
#

Sweep should be 80 mana

harsh pivot
#

Oh

#

Talking about sweep. Yeah. That one is expensive

waxen oar
#

Yeah

#

140 mana is just crazy

harsh pivot
#

Wellā€¦dance is 120 tbh

mortal summit
#

that's a mage skill though

waxen oar
#

Who the hell have 3k+ mana in orn gear?

harsh pivot
#

So?

waxen oar
harsh pivot
#

Oh crap

#

Youā€™re right.

#

I had sky shoes. Nvm

#

Brain fart

surreal crest
#

sky shoes is another thing that is crazy unbalanced btw

harsh pivot
surreal crest
#

in the discussion of "mage vs melee"

#

what are melees answer to sky shoes

harsh pivot
#

Riftrogue. Lol. Best feet in the game

#

That mage vs melee thing would tire anyone out

waxen oar
harsh pivot
waxen oar
#

Since every melee uses gunnr

#

Res is irrelevant

mortal summit
waxen oar
#

That 500magic is too much

surreal crest
waxen oar
#

Which gear gives 500 attack?

#

And helps you redline faster?

surreal crest
#

500 atk and a way to get to activate your stat passive faster

harsh pivot
harsh pivot
surreal crest
#

riftrogues are nice for consistency for sure

harsh pivot
#

Yā€™all forget swash exists

#

Jeez. But what is the deal? Just want to have everything be exactly the same?

waxen oar
#

And who goes swash in endless?

harsh pivot
#

No one mentioned endless

waxen oar
#

Or hardmode?

#

Or dungeons?

#

Or raids?

surreal crest
#

no worries i am still sitting with my pet in a corner eating sand

#

just BeoA enjoyer life

waxen oar
#

Everyone either goes oracle or raider or Cataphract

waxen oar
harsh pivot
#

Yeah man. Heretic and realm are different. Enjoy the game.

#

Wonā€™t have the same mirrored gear

#

Thatā€™s just silly.

waxen oar
#

They clearly are.

harsh pivot
#

Yes. Ok. Obviously I wonā€™t try to argue that because everything mage is overpowered to you. So ok.

#

Donā€™t have a counter to that

surreal crest
#

where is my pet version of it, i want equal items as well

harsh pivot
#

Warrior needs one too

surreal crest
#

shield shoes

harsh pivot
#

Such a nice thing. Have classes be different

surreal crest
#

just equip a shield in every slot

harsh pivot
#

Yeah. I want high tenacity. Was literally doing dungeons today thinking how much Iā€™d like it

surreal crest
#

haha i want a defensive passives besides 12% protect chance

#

anything

harsh pivot
#

Every class having their own thing is pretty much one of the things I like most in the game. Having classes be similar would be šŸ¤®

mortal summit
#

similar in scope what they can accomplish (raids, dungeons, etc.), different in how they accomplish it, and what options there are to accomplish things (Zwei, raider, charmer, etc.)

raw mantle
#

Balance =/= everything being the same.

There are plenty of ways to create gear that is equal in power across classes without the gear being identical. And until very recently this was not the case, with Thief gear regularly being borderline useless.

Even riftrogue, for as good as it is now, was trash when the event first launched. It took the community complaining in mass to get them to their current state

#

Arguing that people want everything to be the same is a bad faith argument and can be left in the dumpster.

People can and should expect each class to occasionally get cool new toys, without those toys being disproportionately better than everything else (sky shoes)

lethal finch
#

Worth noting that Odie's already talked about Fallen Sky Shoes before
#šŸ‘‹ā”‚general message

surreal crest
#

yea and I disagreed with him back then as well

waxen oar
#

#šŸ‘‹ā”‚general message

surreal crest
#

comparing 500 mag with burn immunity and some ward is weird

waxen oar
#

And FSS has more res compared to def on the other gear

surreal crest
#

and, if what that post states for stats is correct, 1 additional adornment

waxen oar
#

Since the other relevant classes will use gunnr/snotra the other stat doesn't matter

surreal crest
#

which could be everything, even 2% ward

waxen oar
#

Yep

surreal crest
#

thinking about all items that are beo focused and i cant think of anything similar

waxen oar
surreal crest
#

yea but those 25% are in reality like 16

#

well, we getting buffed, i will restrain myself from ranting until then

stiff relic
#

Nice same arguments again for 300 lines

dapper kraken
#

X class main: Y class's gear skill/class is OP, but dont touch my class gear cos its all 'fine and balanced'

split temple
# zenith oar i too enjoy hitting 25*4 enemies 1 by 1 <:mimic:565607716094214174>

Unironically.

Granted most people don't have any experience with aoe-less horde modes that have been T10 since 3.0 launched. It was really fun for like... a week. And then dance/pavane was added in its current form and nobody has ever looked back. Arrowstorm and the other splitting aoes were added shortly after, and they're a distant second since they need insane amounts of investment to 1shot the floor.

If people are totally sold on "one button clear floor, no enemy survives" then yeah all other aoe is gonna be pointless. No need to add stuff like AV2/CS, no need to add neighbor targeting, random targeting, overkill splash, etc etc. The only reason AV2 gets used in towers is because people can't buff up like they can in gauntlets šŸ˜› (and even then, with selene hands and ascensions you can get sweep/dance to clear 1shot in towers too).

#

-suggest 20% fixed miss chance for dance/pavane/sweep šŸ¤”

dapper kraken
#

Maybe the problem lies with mob too easy to kill

split temple
#

^ also true. A lot could be done with enemy design that doesn't directly change any skills but still results in more interesting situations.

#

Second chance mobs are a thing but... adding second chance all over the place is kinda lame.

#

An AoE-shield mob would be neat. something that needs to be targeted before you can use aoe on the rest of the floor

north urchin
#

if mobs are gonna be buffed, the rewards better be buffed too. i aint wracking my brain 5 min a mob for 1 hide

dapper kraken
#

5min is too much

#

How abt 2- 3 turn for a mob

#

Instead of 1

#

Maybe more

split temple
#

2-turn per floor instead of 1-turn per floor is something like 3x slower. šŸ˜¬

#

It's gonna be really fucking hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube NF squeezed over a year ago. No doubt.

stiff relic
#

Iā€™m unapologetically ok with a mobile game that offers great bite sized content (doable in a single shit session without constipation) and yet you need to grind a lot over time. So mashing 1 button to clear shit x25 is perfect toothpaste.

harsh pivot
#

That makes a lot of sense

stiff relic
#

Not sure 3x slower vs today is an ok trade off under the guise of ā€œmore interesting combatā€

#

One way I can see is offer a new tube of toothpaste and donā€™t squeeze it

#

4x harder mob

#

2x better gear

#

Naturally the power creep gets halved

#

Everything people have today is worthless and depreciated

#

Thatā€™s cool

harsh pivot
#

Ballsy

stiff relic
#

Iā€™m also unapologetically ok with raid bosses being loot pinatas

split temple
#

"guise"? šŸ™ƒ

I can understand wanting a simple game but it's not a guise to want something more.
Less auto-clicker/mobile-gamey.

stiff relic
#

Have you ever beaten a piƱata? Itā€™s fun

#

Super fun

#

10/10 would piƱata again

stiff relic
#

The trade off I wasnā€™t ok with (just my own opinion)

#

It seems like a lot of convo is around 1) interesting combat and 2) one turn clear

#

To me those can be mutually exclusive

#

1 does not automatically mean not 2

#

2-2.35 mins per content chunk is a good bar imo

#

Towers is causing burnout and smash and grab behavior because it requires you to sit and play for 30-45 mins

split temple
#

3-5 minutes is a dungeon w/o 1-turn clear, fwiw.
1min is with.

stiff relic
#

Fixed

#

2 mins is ok lol

#

5 starts to feel draggy tbh

#

So far point

#

Like currently with Medusa

#

Doing aoe as caster

#

That seems ok with boost gear

#

Itā€™s like a 3 min ish run

raw mantle
#

With ascensions (possibly) getting a hard/soft cap now is a good a time as any to slow down clear speeds.

Farming 100,000 hide for refineries becomes less important if you don't need refineries any longer.

north urchin
#

easy

raw mantle
#

If dungeons were slowed down and horde mode became something other than a raw material farm, having them take 2-3 minutes each would go over a lot better

north urchin
#

it'll solve all the asc problem

#

just spend 8 hrs farming 10k refineries XD

raw mantle
#

My point was more that refineries die when you get to the ascension cap, unless you want the trickle for gear upgrades

#

Like, if ascensions get capped at 50 I'm not ever touching a refinery again after getting realm and beo there.

Which in turn means I don't need to run horde just to get refineries burning

Which means I can run horde for gear or EoD rewards, both of which could be tuned to compensate for an increase in dungeon clear time of AoE skills were adjusted

native shore
# gleaming sluice Ok but hear me out 3 attack buffs and it kills everything in one hit at Al 10

what like tier 7-9 alt hordes? id honestly like to see that. clear a tier 11 dungeon hard mode using sweep and i will be impressed. i have bis gear/adorns/ect and itā€™s still a challenge after countless hours of preparationā€¦..to balance attack power/mana/dots

iā€™m just tired of trying to make something work that isnā€™t meant to. itā€™s great with alts for low energy stuff ofc šŸ‘Œ

north urchin
#

AL cap 50

#

and maybe a 20% soft cap afterwards

gleaming sluice
tall atlas
timid glen
#

Sternstunden der Menschheit

alpine rose
#

Only thing wrong with Sweep is it's exorbitant mana cost.

#

Otherwise it's fine

naive stratus
#

sweep 140mp

#

RS: this is not good

waxen oar
#

Even Gilgas don't have that much mana to do t11 dungeons in one go

#

Even at 160 ascensions

alpine rose
#

Yeah Sweep fine for Deity

#

Just too much mana for anythign else

#

Arrowstorm 2 is 80. So why not move Sweep to 110

#

or even 120

naive stratus
#

šŸ¤£

alpine rose
#

I can't even do a 20 floor all the way through on a carry with Ornate JoD in all my stuff

#

And I'm 50 Asc

#

I have just enough to get to floor 20 after I buff what I need to buff, and that's assuming I have no misses (haha Gilga)

long swallow
#

Gilga Ursa zwei for horde carry is decent with endgame gear and 50+ al

#

Not enough mana to finish a dungeon though

#

But the syphon ward passive helps

#

If you take any incoming damage

spark beacon
waxen oar
#

So Gilga with dungeon gear.

dapper kraken
#

hopefully melee class can get a good aoe soon

long swallow
uncut mortar
#

I have a 3% mana regen amity and it kinda works, but I still need to refill Mana

long swallow
#

So I could sacrifice the little ward I have to boost mana enough but not really worth the cost

#

And even with 55al and that big att it is completely reliant on temp buffs to do any real sweep damage

alpine rose
uncut mortar
#

Yeah I'm talking about carrying specifically

alpine rose
alpine rose
long swallow
#

Pretty much

waxen oar
gleaming sluice
untold lichen
#

I need an Ashen Sapphire that absorbs mana when I hit things

onyx scroll
#

Oof yeah

gleaming sluice
#

Hereā€™s the stat screen and took 2 minutes

329E970A-78FF-4DA9-A854-96A6F01B670F.png
naive stratus
#

We'll be sharing a ton of details about the Balance Patch later this week.
Today?

surreal crest
#

we don't know

gleaming sluice
full barn
#

Where are the full boosters?

split temple
#

#game-announcements aww shiiii šŸ‘€ šŸ‘€ šŸ‘€

surreal crest
#
  • Buffs and a completely new core mechanic to the Thief classline
  • Buffs and a completely new core mechanic to the Valhallan classline
#

are we gettin our second pet

hallow edge
#

Now to wait for beta

surreal crest
#

i hope this includes the npc that lets you switch pets inside towers/OR that odie talked about before

alpine rose
#

Valhallan and Rogue, classline core mechanics...interesting, this implies more than just t10 changes, at least to me

waxen oar
#

Odie once said to message someone about getting their account mirrored for Beta testing.