GS PVP

[subtle edge]

I tried taking a few back just with summon damage and got a bunch of like 10-20 turn fights. Swapped to BP afterward which is like the god hand of infinite damage 😅

After the M1=3 cap I wonder what it'll be.

Regarding damage -- you wouldn't see your Warden (passive) defense boost nor influence on offense which'd be there on defense.

I agree that people being able to go T9 summoner + benefactor and suddenly getting summons with like 10k atk/mag stats right out of the gate with no gear is a problem. Benefactor is when the conversation drastically changed; before then it was just BP which itself was kind of a later-T10 concern (required at least being T10, and also having some gear like heretic's robe, nekrostaves, etc.).

The current beta changes (BP M1 pvp cap, battalions protect% halving)... don't change the summon-damage-based offense side of things at all.

[rich token]

So offensively gs is going to have m1 blood pact, but defensively it will be m3? Or am I misunderstanding that? If that's the case it doesn't seem like anything will change except making things even worse for other classes since Phoenix is getting nerfed too lol

[subtle edge]

the Phoenix change is:

[PvE/PvP] Corrected an issue that caused spells like Deific Channel to be overprioritized by the follower AI due to it being both a ward upkeep and buffing spell
but I doubt it changes much of anything. My BeoH/Phoenix setup on beta is still 100% DC uptime with +8 act from passive and +1 smartAI gear equipped. 🤷‍♂️

Offensively:

• BP will be limited to M1=3, instead of the current M1=20??? 50??? it is now.

Defensively:

• AI never used BP anyway, so no changes on that front
• protect% goes from 50% to 25% base, something like that
• Bolt4 is added which autohits, and both it and Pshot/CDG ("never miss skills") all will bypass protect%

[gray prism]

You still die to summons with DC or not, it barely helps.

[rich token]

I assume bolt4 will hit like pshot does and be minimal damage? I still don't feel like battalion block chance is the biggest issue and would actually prefer that to be a last ditch effort in balance since there are actually viable workarounds to it. Having a no miss spell for magic will be nice regardless, but depending on how the balance plays out I can see more issues or essentially no change in the current state of pvp. May have to bring DB back into builds.. lol

[mint saddle]

bolt 4 deals about 4k dmg with glasscanon equip

[gray prism]

Yeah perfect shot does like 6-8k damage with 18k in attack stat. They're not viable options.

[mint saddle]

at least he can crit or?

[gray prism]

My buddy tried it and did like 4k damage so with a crit still not viable.

[mint saddle]

only when the survive first hit and have really low hp

[fringe gazelle]

When we're talking about area defense and summons, how much has the players influence dropped?

If a players defense is dropped enough, then yes players will have an easier time taking lands.

I wouldn't rely on dukedom defense as a good judge of player defense stats.

[rotund quail]

Fyi I was not showing weak builds at all. You can see the stats on them, thats fully maxed summon stats

[radiant moth]

Yeah this is quite puzzling

Some people say summons kill them really easily but pie literally sent a clip with 500k hp summons which is like full summon stat gear and he took 20 turns or something

But overall I agree that bene should get nerfed big time, it invalidated summon stat gear because of the additive nature of summon stats and gives noob GS a huge advantage

I really want to see a video of someone killing mobile wonder with just summon dmg though

[rotund quail]

I think the safety is the problem tbh

The fact that you're probably not getting hit while attacking someone way stronger than you

Dejct are you running chained shield in that build?

[vague blade]

Oh, hey
Isn't that the class' tagline or something?
"Safe but slow"?

[gray prism]

I just recorded my shit alt with no celestial items whatsoever destroying things 70+ ascension with ease

Safe and slow my ass

[umbral pine]

So is the entry level GS defeating high def/res deity terribly fast? Are those players losing lands in matter of seconds? How can the player be sure that it isn't BP build? Unless the player simultaneously counter back the same player to verify the build?

[rotund quail]

idk but I would not consider an alt with 40+ al to be shit

send the recording tho

[gray prism]

Recordings, there's many. I'm trying to find wrecked in the arena but didn't get him

It has just standard gear, it's so easy to get, no celestial stuff at all and safely murders everything. I was still doing damage to bigGg at al170

[dim shale]

show them the sauce

[gray prism]

He's a higher ascension than me and has more stats apparently, he knows the sauce

[fringe gazelle]

40% bonus stats to summons does sound nice.

Is that added or multiplied to the gear/benefactor bonus?

[dim nacelle]

Asc is multiplicative. The only source of stats that work like that

[tulip shale]

Auriga is how I know they’re not using BP. When it’s an unknown summoner I usually throw 3 builds at him: dex build, 400k ward and then my anti summon build. That’s how I “test” which build the opponent is using. Depending on the times and which build I have I can guess if he’s using summons or BP or if he’s switching between them

For some reason, BP is rare. So is hydrus.

Regular GS with BP is easy to stop. GS/ Bene is much more difficult to stop

[dim shale]

bp is so rare, especially if it's pre hydra/anubis levels

heck i never met a non alt bp account from fresh t10

[umbral pine]

Difficult to stop as in no loss of territories or losing them at a fast rate? How fast are you losing if you are against such player you mentioned?

[raw knot]

I don't have much problems with GS at level 240, I use mage's pavane. But once I'll face better GS with actual gear... doesn't sound good. Hopefully the battalion nerf will help.

[radiant moth]

well yeah it seems both non summoners and summoners dont like the insane 0 cost power boost benefactor gives, i hope nf can adress it so both are satisfied

i honestly think summons being that op on defense wont be an issue at all without benefactor

[rich token]

He used the attack button. That clip is just bait. Had he used bp like 99% summoner, he would have annihilated his opponent.

Also likely not using benefactor because his summons would have destroyed the opponent in one or two turns as well. GS is pretty much impossible to stop.

[rich token]

I have full influence throughout the entire city I live in and a t9 summoner is able to grab it. Do your regular stats drop lower than when your influence isn't full? As far as I can tell, they don't when I check my territories using an alt. The only thing I see is bonuses when full influence. Build shows 250k+ ward on the status page and on the territory I'm sitting over 400k ward.

[rotund quail]

the point was to show the power of summons

that was full summon stats

btw on auriga and bene you have a total a 0.35x multiplier to pact damage

at that point it's not going to do anything

[rotund quail]

it was literally benefactor

I'm like the only one bringing evidence to the table as well

the rest of yall are saying it's literally impossible to zero out summons without bringing evidence

just wanted to prove it's possible

nobody else has sent videos of their setups defending against GS

show me some actual recordings

[rich token]

Can't get defense videos in territory besides screenshots of timestamps.

Arena is a joke let's be real. I'll get you some live pvp in a while.

[radiant moth]

If he used BP the summons wouldn't deal damage

[charred roost]

GS isn't that oppressive in pvp pre 240

In the 230s, I had like a 50/50 chance to win a coli. After reaching 240, I've only won 1 and have died to summoners way more than anything else.

[slim ibex]

Let's try against me

[rotund quail]

alright, dont kill me then tho

[slim ibex]

Kk

[rotund quail]

lmk when ready

even with max stats they cant get through tho

[slim ibex]

Sadly the defensive bot don't play like that

Was with 13/12k

[tulip shale]

Agreed.

[tulip shale]

Nah. At first it was BAAAAAD. Instant loses, no way to stop it. It was horrible. I personally started getting better. Now I only have 3 that still hit at fast rate, 2 hydrus and 2 auriga (1 of them plays both). There are still maybe…7-8 that I can’t stop but I can slow down or bore.

[charred roost]

Mobile how long are you staying the South East area? I want my top 100 regional spot back 😭

[tulip shale]

Haha. 3 days.

[charred roost]

Okie dokie, enjoy your March to the sea

[tulip shale]

Hey. I’m honest. I have gotten really good at fighting them in areas. In kingdom war though….different story. My defense win % is pretty bad against GS. My Vesta build seems to be more of an rng type counter that doesn’t seem to favor me 😢

And btw….I just came here to say….

Today is the day😆😂😂

Final day of this….doo doo. And good lord, tomorrow night Chicago GS will feel my fury😂

[gray prism]

Sorry man, I tried to find a worthy opponent in the arena and I killed AL70-90 easily, but it's no use if I don't know what they're running that's why I tried to find wrecked but couldn't! I posted that screenshot and video that showed my alt smashing my main that had over 13k defenses with ease. It must be only deities that are 30 Al higher than you with 15k defenses that can actually 0 you, only when they're at super low HP. Good to know!

[rotund quail]

also did testing with abyss

summons couldnt kill him either

fyi that deity was not 30 al above me

1 al below me

[gray prism]

Wrecked? Oops

[rotund quail]

havent seen him

[gray prism]

I stand corrected! My bad

[rotund quail]

really dont know what your probem with GS is though. All I know is that you're screaming it's OP in fucking everything while you dont bring evidence whatsoever

Im done with your shit lol

[gray prism]

I did I posted that video of my alt

[rotund quail]

and please dont ping me in replies

[gray prism]

Killing 66 Al higher with 13k res in 1 shot

[gray prism]

Lol whatever man

I literally posted a video

[rotund quail]

where

[gray prism]

In this thread

And you responded

I don't just say shit without testing

[rotund quail]

how come I cant kill abyss then

he has less al asswell

@slim ibex

[gray prism]

So it's deities running max tank you can't kill and I said I stand corrected

[rotund quail]

I mean every class oneshots every class

[gray prism]

Keep saying that

[rotund quail]

but when GS does it with summons its a big deal?

dont get it

[charred roost]

I think the issue is tier crossing

[slim ibex]

Because i'm Abyss

[charred roost]

People have an issue with t8/9 summoner class lines being able to easily take their territories due to how hard it is to hit them

And with low ascension GS players being able to easily abuse this mechanic to take territories of people with far higher ALs as well

[gray prism]

He won't understand even after all this time

[rotund quail]

well that is literally getting nerfed

protect chance is getting nerfed in pvp

[gray prism]

People have been very clear about the problem

It's not a fn mystery

[rotund quail]

you havent even tested the beta changes and you are still screaming for more nerfs

[gray prism]

How do you know I haven't lol

Cool assumption

[rotund quail]

who is taking territoires from you in beta?

[gray prism]

I don't care about that lol

I used that as an example but I'm talking about pvp in general

[charred roost]

Arena farm is annoying when I'm dying every 3 battles to a GS player

[gray prism]

I don't mention territories much cause I'm not in that game

[gray prism]

This happens to me in beta

[charred roost]

Fun!

[slender mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-oh-my-cat-shocked-paw-gif-12461088

[gray prism]

It's so fun

[rotund quail]

at al100? Dont believe that at all

[charred roost]

Months later and I still am not sure how GS made it into live

[gray prism]

Theres not many good mirrors in beta, you fight like 20 mages/warriors before you even fight a t11 class. Before I got my mirror I lost to EVERY single summoner in the beta. Let alone a proper mirror. But the summon damage hasnt changed, I only win if I spam chain shield. I showed a vid of the damage going through max tank. you believe what you wanna believe,

[tulip shale]

Yeah. I don’t understand where the issue is. I’ve been able to stop GS auriga, and have also been wrecked by them. There’s something that is not being communicated correctly or truthfully here. I’ve also seen GS take down easily players with 50+ ALs on them

It’s not a reason to get heated in my opinion. But yes. The GS class is complete madness right now. I also wonder about the other builds that I haven’t seen. Either the GS on offense or the defender, whoever it is.

[slender mulch]

lots of misinformation spread by certain GS mains. class still OP in PVP defense/offense post balance patch

[subtle edge]

Where's the misinformation?

[charred roost]

That GS is balanced in pvp 😂

[rotund quail]

dont think anyone claimed anything yet. I know the protect chance is about halved and that my bp damage is more than halved

what the consequences of that will be in practice idk yet

[radiant moth]

Noone says it's balanced, it's just not as op as you guys make it out to be

I'd say it's only op on the defensive side since now that blood pact is gutted, it's not better than other classes at turn one oneshots

[heady owl]

GS Auriga bp build

[rotund quail]

Try it in the beta

[heady owl]

Don’t have beta access and I don’t want to bother

[tulip shale]

It kinda is. Lemme check something. I’m gonna look for screenshots 😆

Since we are posting proof lol. I should have tons😂

[tulip shale]

What the hell.

I’m speechless. That’s like 200k damage turn 1 with zero chance to proc second chance

And even with the immortal ring just to really piss people off 😂

But yeah. Beta should take care of that. But we really still wondering why all the uproar? That’s just not playing fair at all

And everytime I asked here people told me “auriga kills BP”. Bro…

I doubt GS mains didn’t know that was possible

[subtle edge]

I use BP as GSA/bene and also get like ~85/90k turn1. Because BP was broken as hell, which has been a constant statement since literally day1. 😅

I made this statement like 2.5 months ago.
I still agree with all of those changes; NF has only touched on BP and then changed battalions which wasn't even on this list.

So... 🤷‍♂️

[plush bobcat]

I think the battalions nerf will have a positive impact. Even the playing field a bit.

[subtle edge]

Yeah, I don't mind it. After towers-introduced protect% augments, protect% kinda went nuts; cutting down GS defenses isn't the worst idea at all (though it's probably more the fault of the augments than anything).

The "low level GS can go benefactor and kill my ascended T11 territory defense" complaint was not/is not addressed by the current changes, though.
And that's not because those filthy GS mains are lying, misinforming, or arguing in their own interests.

[tulip shale]

I didn’t say all that. I simply said that I’ve asked here and have been told that no way auriga works with BP, which is true.

Don’t ask me who. I have no idea who it was lol. And I have zero interest in looking for that exchange that prolly happened months ago

[rotund quail]

Batallions nerf might also slightly improve on that. Part of the problem is that its very safe to take territories with a summon build. Those early T10 players probably will not spec into protect chance well so at least they'd get hit more oftne

Probably wont solve it completely tho

[tulip shale]

But during all beta that didn’t come up. People only talked about BP. I was saying from the start that summons needed a look at because of how aurigas were hitting. And in here I would see that summons could be controlled, so it was a mystery. Turns out, auriga has been able to use BP all this time. But that was never stated. Gonna get addressed regardless because of BP. But it explains a lot.

[rotund quail]

Yeah well auriga+bene is still a 0.35x multiplier to bp damage. Its just that the summon health sort of compensates for it. When the patch lands summon health will have effectively no effect on BP because of the cap

Hydrus is the only viable option

[subtle edge]

I'm looking forward to the BP reduction because it means that I have to think about pvp while playing GS on offense. Because up until now (meaning, release of summoner until now, 8 months) I haven't at all. I could use GSA, Benefactor, could use suboptimal/defensive gear and still just BP everything to death because that's how absurdly strong it is pre-change.

Summons are super strong in pvp, but they're not infinitely strong. They can be slowed down, which is the goal of territory defense. I'm not against reducing summon strength in pvp in general (especially since Benefactor came and massively powered them up) -- though that being said, how are non-BP summoners supposed to take territory? I'd rather they just be able to get that strong, but it should require actual farmed gear and should nerf defenses just like how swash works.

[rotund quail]

For bp at least

Sunmon stat gear scaling when

[charred roost]

Get a load of this guy

[tulip shale]

I’m kinda bothered by this tbh. Like damn…and we can’t say people are trying to mislead people…but DAAAAAMN….

[plush bobcat]

I definitely wasn’t trying to mislead anyone with my comments the other day. I don’t have any video evidence to support my claims currently. I’ll definitely try to screen record some next chance I get.

[tulip shale]

Jesus guys…the tiniest search…for “auriga bp”….😔

For months people claiming it’s impossible to use…pfft

[rotund quail]

To be fair, before celestial weapons it was

[tulip shale]

Celestial weapons been out for months. In fact I specifically asked about it. Straight up. I just assumed that the high hp pool would make it work. And I got told to my face that it’s not possible.

[rotund quail]

Possible but why would you ever do it?

No reason to not use hydrus in that case

[tulip shale]

Because it’s the strongest build of all.

[slender mulch]

Nf: we will nerf gs based on our class analysis. Also NF: infinite M1 BP! BP boosting augments, etc etc

[tulip shale]

Oh yeah. It destroys hydrus. Because you can’t zero out the summons in one turn with auriga

It’s by far the best BP. It’s not hydrus, it’s auriga

[rotund quail]

I dont think you can zero out ancient dragon on gsh bene

But idk

Not on turn 1 at least

[tulip shale]

Maybe not. Possibly not. But I know for sure I won’t zero out an auriga on turn 1

Hydrus only gets the benefit of thief gear. But if you see an auriga, you don’t counter with dex right?

Well tbf you don’t counter a hydrus with dex gear either

[rotund quail]

In the beta you will have to make a choice between bp or summon stats thats for sure. Hydrus loses ascendant summons so your summons will be very weak, but its the only viable bp option. Auriga and bene will only decrease bp damage because of the M1 cap, so your bp damage will take a really big hit. Base gs is somewhere in between , but its still quite far behind hydrus in terms of turn 1 damage

[subtle edge]

Tober's comment in that "state of balance" post was accurate:

Between benefactor and auriga it's down to like, 30% effectiveness

What's 30% of 2million damage on turn1?

(Searching for 'auriga bp', Pie's response in summoner beta changes looks to be pve (raid) focused, not pvp.)

---

Also, the BP pvp change is going through so I'm not entirely sure why we're talking about it.
My current GSA/bene BP on live is something around 90k, on beta it's like 12k and enemy res matters.

[tulip shale]

That’s been the answer for months now. “It’s going to be addressed”

But my question was not if it was going to be addressed. My question was if auriga could use BP, and the answer was only a yes. But it wasn’t the answer I got.

The problem is now. 3 months ago I could care less about the balance patch because it was 3 months away.

Either way. It’s water under the bridge. It’s too late now. No point in discussing in when tomorrow it’ll be fixed.

[rotund quail]

To be fair, I may have said something like that at some point because I never really tried it ever since getting a celestial weapon. All I know is that it sucked with nekro + ithra. Then I just never saw a reason to use it over hydrus + bene which still has enough summon damage but way more Bp damage and riftrogue

[subtle edge]

[11:51 AM]Mobile Wonder: Doesn’t auriga use BP too? Actually asking. I was under the impression they can use it because of high hp pool
[11:51 AM]Solonawarian Auriga: Auriga passive greatly reduces effectiveness of all pacts
[11:51 AM]ToberDam: Between benefactor and auriga it's down to like, 30% effectiveness
[11:52 AM]Mobile Wonder: Got it

This is what you were told.
Maybe you just didn't fully understand how broken BP is and has been, or why I've been so loud about the topic. 😅

I don't blame you for thinking that taking 70% away from something kills it, but that's only true if it's in the ballpark of correct damage instead of 10x where it should be in pvp.

[tulip shale]

Yeah bro. I get what you’re trying to do, but don’t even think that’s the only time I’ve seen someone say that auriga kills BP. 2m turn 1 is just you. The norm is 120k for a single hit. Strings is not hitting 30% of 120k.

Well. Was the norm. Pretty sure it’s much higher now

[rotund quail]

Its because the extra summon health also resulrs in more bp damage so the pact effectiveness multiplier doesnt tell the whole story

Anyway, that wont be the case anymore in the coming patch

You already reach the bp ceiling with 1 dragon and a weak summon

So like 140k hp and anything more than that just doesnt get used

[tulip shale]

Looks fair

100k plus 2 more hits after

Yeah. I guess y’all right. Balance patch will fix everything.

[subtle edge]

my BeoH in the beta is only turn1 200k plus 1 hit after
I'm sure that's more fair.

[rotund quail]

Bp without any celestial class or weapon is pretty bad though. You need to actually invest in a build now

Most gs will also not have 40+ al

[tulip shale]

At least I’ll get second chance 1/10 matches.

Pfft.

But let’s focus on Ultima and phoenix. They’re OP

[subtle edge]

Turns out they still are, yeah.

[tulip shale]

Argh. Ok. I’m pissed 😂😂

[rotund quail]

@slim ibex is still doing over 200k with spiked shield but he doesnt want to tell us

[slim ibex]

Why always using me like a shield

[subtle edge]

Because you're mimic reacting to every message, probably 😛

[tulip shale]

Abyss does 200k but if he leaves my second chance up, he’s really really really dead

[slim ibex]

Spike shield I

After my second chance

[tulip shale]

Can’t ss if you have no ward 😂

[slim ibex]

Will you hit me for 400k?

[tulip shale]

Yes?

[slim ibex]

Is your glass Canon

I can do this too if you want x)

[rotund quail]

Wait so why do you think 100k is a lot lol

[tulip shale]

I know. You’re sexy😍

[slim ibex]

Grrrr

[tulip shale]

I don’t. It’s the 3 hits.

[rotund quail]

Did you see the stats of those summons

[fringe gazelle]

Because hydra/dragon bully's the poor guy.

He's missing Abyss secret on zeroing the summons.

[rotund quail]

Ascension levels dont affsct hydrus summons anymore

[slim ibex]

Nah

Everyone know spike shield M1

[rotund quail]

So dragon and hydra now have piss poor stats on hydrus. For sure not enough to kill second chance on high def/res enemies

[slim ibex]

(and chained shield)

[tulip shale]

Good enough for 3 hits. Lol.

Abyss is swash, and I used Chakram on a glass cannon, it was a double hit, and my phoenix prolly used DC after

If he uses defense I’m prolly zeroed on turn 1

[slim ibex]

Pew

[tulip shale]

You said earlier you doubt hydrus summons get zeroed on turn 1.

[rotund quail]

With bene and ascended summons they dont. With sequencer and no ascended summons they have like half the stats

But bene is a 50% bp reduction now

[tulip shale]

I have a feeling the war on GS won’t be over after the patch😂

[slim ibex]

They are tanky I need to admit that

[rotund quail]

Stat comparison

[tulip shale]

Good. And I hope they nerf them again to 5k hp😆

Kiddiiiiiing………….

[rotund quail]

We all know you want them to remove the class from the game

[slim ibex]

At least chained shield exist

But summons have too much stats imo

[rotund quail]

You dont die in 1 hit either

[slim ibex]

gl to kill me without a glass canon build

[rotund quail]

I cant even kill you with a glass cannon build lol

Not in the beta at least

[slim ibex]

Because you weak

[rotund quail]

I could probably kill you with a higher damage loadout but then hitting you is rng

[slim ibex]

You know

I can have 80k hp

With real SS dmg

[rotund quail]

Yeah then I cant kill you

Nerf deity

[slim ibex]

I was only playing with food

[slim ibex]

That's why BeoH have more hp

[rotund quail]

I dont think gs pvp offense will be that amazing compared to other options tbh

I think hydrus summon stats are too low to bypass second chance and that was the only advantage gs still has. In terms of damage it does less than other classes now correct me if I'm wrong

[slim ibex]

You wrong

[tulip shale]

I think so too

It’ll still be extremely oppressive

[rotund quail]

Beoh does more damage, deity and gilga with ss. Idk about heretic

[dim shale]

don't know about heretic? ask zipper
oh wait

[plush bobcat]

I’ll test it Thursday. Gimme your best.

with base GS

[slender mulch]

it's never gonna end until NF actually plays their own game (actively)

until now, NF's balance patch was pretty much a result of who had the loudest voice

or campaigned the best, not necessarily what needed to change

sometimes those 2 coincided

but for many things they didnt

[radiant moth]

Adding separate PvP balancing is a really good step in the right direction, and with the upcoming ORN thing I'm guessing it's only going to get better

So I'm sure eventually PvP can be fun for everyone, but yeah it sucks that development is taking long

[mighty wadi]

what exactly do you mean by this..?

I'm wondering out of curiosity given so many things, for all classes, was outright reverted/decided against in this patch

[north shell]

Heh, Purrly, Covyn and myself play daily

Odie and Havel trying to code the game! Only so many hours 😅

[radiant moth]

Coyn unfriended me after joining you guys...

feelsbadman

[rotund quail]

is that really GS specific though? Why does it have to be a war on GS specifically

[radiant moth]

Cause GS is unbalanced in PvP and everyone is being emotional

[rotund quail]

I just hope the negativity surrounding the class will diminish when this patch drops. I feel like I can't really discuss the class or suggest anything for the class without getting bombarded with negativity

[rain gust]

When you're constantly having your territories fiercely taken over by GS players who are under level 250, it's difficult to remain calm and rational about it all. Especially when this extreme imbalance has persisted for months without any improvement, and instead, it keeps getting reinforced.

[rotund quail]

how do you think the patch will impact it?

[rain gust]

Today, I conducted some simple experiments in the beta version, and it seems that the threshold for GS players in PvP has been raised. A GS with around AL15 was able to deal approximately 90,000 damage to my AL70 res:10000 Deity in the first round.

This may not be completely accurate because I am currently working and cannot do extensive testing.🤣

[slender mulch]

Extensive campaigning done by certain classes. Just look at beta feedback for examples. While it's not a bad thing that community feedback is valued, it feels like that sometimes takes precedent over actual balance concerns

[timid hound]

I'd have a read of https://blog.ornarpg.com/state-of-balance-h1-2023/

We tried to make it glaringly clear that data was the main driver for this balance patch, but I understand that may have missed some folk - just letting you see it now 🙂

By campaigning, are you referring to the studio working with the two classlines to nail down the adjustments? If so, we can safely consider that collaboration, not campaigning. The changes came from studio vision, after all

[slender mulch]

State of balance was the one thing that reignited some hope that things would change.

Yet even when it was acknowledged that GS was exceedingly strong in multiple areas of the game, my guild mates and I were surprised to see multiple further "buffs" and power creep added to the class.

[timid hound]

What buffs? Happy to clarify. I'm not aware of any buffs that would affect pvp

[radiant moth]

There are no buffs for GS PvP

[slender mulch]

30% summon amity, creation of new followers such as ancient dragon, buggane. An entire Specialization class benefactor, celestial adornments that give almost 100% follower protection rates. All of these replaced what was previously best in slot in GS pvp loadouts

[radiant moth]

Oh that's not from the current beta

Benefactor was a flop though, I agree it further added to the issue of GS being too strong with too little gear investment

[worn basin]

30% summon amity is now useless in pvp cause of the m1 cap, buggane is easily zeroed cause of low m1, protect chance is halved and can be now bypassed

[timid hound]

Not sure I can agree there. Titan content gave all classes significant power options equally, and the data does not suggest that those things had a larger holistic impact on summoner pvp

[worn basin]

imo there are a lot of steps in the right direction

[timid hound]

But as far as PvP goes, we're 2 hours away from a significant PvP survivability adjustment. A 0 HP summoner won't be making much use of an Amity 🙂

[radiant moth]

Also the current beta is really obviously targeted towards beo and realm more than summoner, the changes seem like touch-ups at best

[dim nacelle]

The summoner pvp changes include a hit to BP damage, so that they have a much harder time oneshotting in pvp offense, and a batallions protect chance halving, so that they have a much harder time in pvp defense

batallions going from 50% to 25% making it be in line with second chance

[radiant moth]

People have been complaining about summon damage on offense though, and it's not getting changed

Cause apparently summons have insanely high stats as GSA benefactor

[slender mulch]

Yes I am looking forward to it. All this being said, we mean no disrespect to the studio at all when we complain about stuff. In the end, I always remember how you made the game f2p with a small studio and am making steps in right directions. Thank you for even responding and reading these discussion posts Odie. It means a lot

[timid hound]

And re: the Titan augment. It's not 100% protect chance, it's a 100% bonus. This means 2x protect chance, which does not mean 100% chance to block an attack

This means it will not be an effective PvP option

[worn locust]

Well, that become true once you reach 50% block chance

[worn basin]

well a 100% bonus on 25% base is 50% at max

[timid hound]

Which is then diminished in PvP in the beta

[timid hound]

Thanks, but a quick scrollback shows me quite a few comments that could be seen as disrespectful to the studio, others players, and more.

These conversations are important - let's all work on ensuring they are more productive, fueled by facts, and approachable by the studio ❤️

[rain gust]

Friendly question 😀 : Six Aems of Eos providing nearly triple the damage boost, is that not considered too strong?

[slender mulch]

agreed!! it's a discussion post on a contentious topic. while I may not agree with certain players, there's never any ad homin attacks

[timid hound]

i'm assuming this is rhetorical?

things like this would be a great candidate for the titan lookover mentioned in https://www.reddit.com/r/OrnaRPG/comments/13k1pyl/updates_on_the_h1_balance_mechanics_patch/

[dim shale]

i think one of the reasons some peeps missed some stuff is because there was a few posts in #game-announcements that were never been published to other servers

[rain gust]

I'm sorry the translation software hasn't been able to accurately convey my thoughts. But I can understand your reply to some extent. Thank you.

[dim shale]

#game-announcements message
like this one, the post never came to our country server

[slender mulch]

was it in OL legends, my bird brain cannot remember if I've seen it before

[dim shale]

don't think so, because if OL received it, then our server should also have it

just checked OL, it's not there

and i also asked here too if they intentionally did not publish that but no replies

[timid hound]

i can't guarantee that'll we'll remember to publish each and every post, and i believe discord has a timeout on the amount of time you have to do it unfortunately

[rotund quail]

If arms of eos go to 1.1x my damage would be about 60k. Atm there is a very big difference between no celestial weapon and a celestial weapon. However I feel like my damage would be very low if they do get nerfed

Im dealing like 100k now with the changes and thats at al38 in the beta

Meanwhile spiked shield users can hit 150-200k and beoH can also do 150-200k I believe

Base gs no celestial weapon, gsh no celestial weapon and gsh with celestial weapon in that order

[slender mulch]

penetration still infinite?

[rotund quail]

No

[rain gust]

gs AL16

[rain gust]

The example here is that the DEITY has AL70 and +10,000 Magic Defense. beta

[dim nacelle]

That deity has no resistance buffs, as opposed to the previous post

which make quite the difference

Regardless, BP being strong turn 1 offense is not as problematic since ~every class strives for a one turn kill, and considering that penetration is no longer infinite, if you survive one blood pact, you can then survive future ones

[ocean pumice]

golems fort+dc was the difference between me oneshotting/second chancing themjolnir and doing 0 dmg

so yeah, with bp no longer being infinite penetration you can survive it just like you can survive everything else that doesn't oneshot you (and it's honestly not very difficult for a lot of classes to oneshot you)

[rain gust]

This is just a GS at AL16, even with a basic setup.

[rotund quail]

abyss had more res than you

[ocean pumice]

as far as dmg numbers in pvp goes this seems pretty normal?

other than like pet based beo

plenty of people easily doing 50-100k with basic setups

some ascended peeps hitting 200k crits

[rotund quail]

you have no dex investment though so how often are you missing

100k damage is still possible to survive I'm pretty sure

50k hp shouldnt be that hard to get as a deity.

my problem with BP right now is that you absolutely need the 20% eos arms

[ocean pumice]

I have almost 50k hp with beoH in pvp with my only investment in hp beign jocs

[rotund quail]

if they go to 10% BP would just not deal enough damage compared to other options

[ocean pumice]

[rain gust]

I can survive, but if he were to increase his level to AL26 or upgrade his equipment, I might not stand a chance.
Even if I were to increase my Ascension level to 80🤪

[rotund quail]

how does it compare to other options though?

I just dont believe that setup is able to consistently kill your main

if it has 0 dex investment it'd be constantly missing

does your AI not attack back or something?

[rain gust]

Similar to an AL26 Gilga, but Gilga has significantly better equipment.

[rotund quail]

at least that gilga would have a static miss chance

how does chained shield perform against the GS?

on defense

[rain gust]

Yes, but Gilga's shield is also more susceptible to being damaged.

[rotund quail]

idk but I think that gilga would at least survive an attack back

GS is full glass cannon and will not be able to take a hit

[rain gust]

I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what this sentence means.

[rotund quail]

I mean if you have your AI on defense with chained shield, how well does it perform if it's attacked by the GS

[rain gust]

This depends on the AI's choice of who to target for the attack.🤔

[rotund quail]

I dont know the exact numbers for batallions 2, but suppose it's 20% now because batallions 3 is 25% from my testing. Then I think you should have about a 50% chance to kill the GS with chained shield. 1/3 to target the GS directly in which case you have a 80% chance to kill it, then a 2/3 chance to hit either summon, in that case you have a 2/3 chance to get the second hit which has a 50% chance of connecting to the GS

[rain gust]

Sorry, I have to go out for a while. I'll be back later.

[rotund quail]

probably closer to 46% in reality because of the 5% miss chance

[tulip shale]

We keep circling back to the same thing people. The problem is not the damage. It’s the follow up damage of the summons

Comparing BP damage to other classes damage is pointless, because other classes don’t have follow up damage like GS does

Seeing those numbers, I’m pretty sure it would be next to impossible to fully buff and zero BP. Before that happens the summoner will have hit 9 times at the most.

8 of those hits with 1 HP

[rotund quail]

sure, although do keep in mind that hydrus summons are very weak now

[tulip shale]

I can’t wait to see how the patch does, but not sure

[rotund quail]

they no longer have increased stats from ascensions

[tulip shale]

Mjum. That’s a plus

[trim thunder]

How about the base GS? Since there are some arguments that base GS can have both BP and Summons damage

🤔

[tulip shale]

Don’t worry. I’ll bring in loads on info today 😂 By tomorrow I’ll be saturated

[trim thunder]

Good luck sweeping those 🤣

[rotund quail]

thing is, you're losing like 50% pact damage

I think the BP M1 cap is already reached with 140k hp or so.

arcane troll + ancient dragon gives me the same damage as hydra because the hydra's hp is pretty much not being used because of the M1 cap

for similar reasons, the higher health provided by base GS summons will not benefit BP

[trim thunder]

I think what Mobile said is that even if in case base GS's BP don't have enough damage, the summons' damage are enough to take out the rest of enemy's HP.

[tulip shale]

Of course it’s enough 😆 140k damage means 70k hp/ward at minimum. Not too many peeps can get there. And even then, you’d need maybe 90/90 to take BP and the summons

[rotund quail]

140k damage?

where are you getting that number from

[tulip shale]

From this

[rotund quail]

they dont seem to be doing that much damage

15k in that screenshot

oh he has freeze resist or something

[rain gust]

I'm sorry for leaving the discussion midway.

[rain gust]

I see your detailed calculations, but the premise for being able to counterattack is that I can survive. I already have an AL that is 54 levels higher than the GS, and my equipment is much better, but the GS can still easily inflict nearly 100,000 damage on me.
And I want to continue improving, but the difficulty in progressing will be many times higher than an AL16 GS.😢

[tulip shale]

140k I was talking about BP. The reason why I went up to 180k is if both summons can do 40k extra. They pretty close in your ss

[mint saddle]

have the sumons lost 3/4 of their hp?

[tulip shale]

Well

[rotund quail]

hydrus no longer has ascendant summons

[tulip shale]

Close enough that it could be optimized to get there

[trim thunder]

Isn't this talking about the penetration value, not the damage itself? 🤔

[radiant moth]

Penetration is fixed

[rotund quail]

yeah but that impacts the total damage

[mint saddle]

yeah heared, but that are 250-300k hp?

[rotund quail]

you could never get 250-300k on hydrus

[radiant moth]

Summons with benefactor are still op af, but with hydrus PvP seems to be as fair as it gets now after the patch honestly

[rotund quail]

only on base or auriga with benefactor

but if you use benefactor now your bp damage is shit

My damage with benefactor

oh wait thats not celestial weapon

[tulip shale]

😆

[radiant moth]

I don't know how to take the laughing emoji reaction lol

[mint saddle]

than most are maybe base in pvp im meeting

[rotund quail]

you cant have thicc summons and good BP damage now

need to make a choice

[radiant moth]

A benefactor PvP nerf will probably address all of these concerns

[trim thunder]

oh btw sorry if I'm a bit out of touch with the discussion, since I'm still at T9 myself

[tulip shale]

I’ve been saying it forever…I just have a feeling it won’t be enough

[trim thunder]

Is the recent patch gonna nerf the benefactor PvP?

[radiant moth]

I mean we can't know for sure but it looks pretty balanced on the hydrus side of things honestly, but if summon dmg was an issue before it still will

[tulip shale]

It’s gonna nerf all of you 😂

https://tenor.com/view/david-meece-who-farted-its-you-its-always-you-it-was-you-i-know-it-was-you-gif-25860516

[ocean pumice]

Defensively yes, with battalions nerf

[tulip shale]

Patch is underway right? Can’t log in

Damn it. Akintunde is safe 💀

[trim thunder]

Well, I'm asking specifically about the Benefactor spec itself, sir

[tulip shale]

I know. I’m playing. If you used benefactor to power up your BP, you’re in trouble. If you used it for your summons, you’ll be ok

[trim thunder]

I'm through and through a summon-based Summoner '-')7

But gotcha, thank you '-')/

[unique kelp]

Got this great pvp, love the changes, GS OP now ( the only thing op is my salt e.e )

Wet noodles and prey to gods to see of you can proc your omega rift otherwise your 90k hp+ward and 6k+ defence are useless

[rotund quail]

I dont know what they did but batallions got nerfed WAY more than initially. After the initial nerf in the beta I was getting 64% protect chance with a max protect setup, sample size of 50. Now I'm getting 16% witht he same setup

talking about pvp here

I honestly think the nerf is too much

2 handed weapon with arisen rift summoner plate, the max possible protect chance

GS defense is dead

[radiant moth]

awesome

[rotund quail]

this nerf is too much though

[umbral pine]

The nerf was supposing from 50% to 25%?

[rotund quail]

yeah that was from my initial testing in the beta

but they nerfed it way more

[radiant moth]

honestly i like it

now we just need pvp offense killed

and then the gs hate can stop maybe possibly

[umbral pine]

Tbf, if your own mirror can smack you to death in a turn or 2, what kind of defense is that?

[grim drift]

i think its fine.

[rotund quail]

my problem is that GS doesnt have any defensive passives like second chance. It also has lower stats than other classes and no stuff like phoenix dc

batallions is the only defensive passive

[grim drift]

if you dont kill summoner fast enough, his summon will smash u in next turn or the following

[rotund quail]

its trivial to oneshot a GS though

[rotund quail]

pvp offense took a massive nosedive as well though

[umbral pine]

Pre-patch = Very challenging to take on GS without specific skill/spell
Post-patch = Minimum effort needed to take out the summoner.

[rotund quail]

try it for yourself

[slender mulch]

sample size 50... seems kinda small

unless there's actual numbers from Odie or a much more considerable sample size, lets not jump the gun here

[rotund quail]

Im not the only one who tested this

akabane got like 12%

[slender mulch]

what sample size?

[rotund quail]

idk

what sample size would be enough for you?

[slender mulch]

idk lol. im just commenting that 50 is kinda small. do u major in stats cuz i didnt

[heavy sky]

Taste of your own medicine lads

[rotund quail]

go in arena and count how many times summons protect

[slender mulch]

no thanks i have better stuff to do with my time

[heavy sky]

In a turn based game I don't see how it's possible to make everyone happy with the GS class.

[errant nova]

Delete it (Joke)

[brazen grove]

I quess they want us To play other classes than gs...

[radiant moth]

please tell me you are trolling with these comments man lol

[brazen grove]

Well gs got nerfed way too much imo

The Only defencive passive that gs has got nerfed To the ground.

[radiant moth]

for pvp only

and if you played gs for pvp only then the nerf did its job

[brazen grove]

Well i do care about my territories...

[radiant moth]

yeah if you care about territory defense gilga or deity is probably the go-to

[brazen grove]

Yes but imo gs should have decent defence To protect his territory aswell

Like any other class

[errant nova]

The only prob i hâve with gs is defense pvp . Before.patch it was juste Insane . Now idk

[rotund quail]

protect chance is much much lower now

close to 10%

[errant nova]

Idk If ITS to low

Anyway they want Os méta pvp

[sleek lake]

What did everyone expect? A balancing update is never balanced. This is an overcorrection and I'm seeing it in my PVP battles too. GS hate will never stop. It used to be PVP defense is too much and now the goal posts have moved to PVP offense through summons is too much.

My PVP matches are just a matter of if RNG is on my side or not now and we all know RNG is pure skill lads.

I'll wait a few more days and see but I hope NF would publish another update with graphs on all class performances in 2 weeks. That should give us a clearer idea.

[brazen grove]

Well if we keep the low protect chance then atleast give us some defencive Stats To compensate a little

[radiant moth]

other classes didnt have as much defense as gs did

maybe the nerf was too hard, but we will see

[brazen grove]

Gs loses - 30% def res and hp

[radiant moth]

thats with benefactor

[brazen grove]

Sorry "benefactor

[radiant moth]

and it only affects the base stats

its literally not noticable

[ocean pumice]

it doesn't affect gear stats so yeah

your base def is 70 instead of 100

huge nerf

[brazen grove]

But the point Is that gs has defencive passive which was nerfed way too much

[radiant moth]

you sure its too much?

[brazen grove]

It kills buildvariety

[radiant moth]

elaborate

[brazen grove]

For example build that i used was having max temp buff procs which usually reduces ward so much that you wont survive if you get Hit many times In a row

[radiant moth]

you used a max temp buff procs build for pvp defense?

the only viable build for pvp defense is full tank

[brazen grove]

For raids

[radiant moth]

this is for pvp only...

[brazen grove]

And batallions seems like it got nerfed In pve too

Idk if it was meant To be Or Is it a bug

[radiant moth]

if it is, its a bug

so dont worry about it

[brazen grove]

I hope so

[ocean pumice]

that's more for bug reports, or a different discussion thread if it isn't a bug

since this thread is about gs pvp

[rotund quail]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1113722571968487444

[rotund quail]

or a stealth nerf

[brazen grove]

But i still think that the pvp nerf was too much. It might be me Only tho

[rotund quail]

we got from about 95% chance with max investment which was OP, to like 16% with max investment. With no investment it's probably closer to 10%

it's a very significant nerf yes

pretty much 50%->10% with no investment

I also think it's a bit too much

GS doesnt have high stats, doesnt have a stat increasing passive, doesnt have second chance

and our defensive mechanism is now way way worse than second chance. I would say in terms of defense we are worse than any class that has second chance

offense also took a significant hit. You need a really good build now to do well

endless also took a big hit because apparently batallions is also nerfed in pve

not looking good rn ngl

[brazen grove]

I hope it is abug🙏

[rotund quail]

GS might very well be the new beo now lol

[brazen grove]

😭

[rotund quail]

AI still doesnt use blood pacton defense

somewhere in the beta there must have been a point where Odie nerfed batallions again

after the initial batallions nerf I was getting about 60% with max protect

now 16%

I really dont like how this stuff isnt communicated clearly at all

tell us the actual numbers instead of letting us test everything for the love of god

[tulip shale]

Y’all really complaining 😐

After GS have been messing with people for almost a year. Y’all didn’t even take 24 hours.

This is exactly what everyone else has been feeling

Even the dude that said “I like my territories”. How did you get them? 🥲😂

Don’t worry. Everyone seems to be too lazy to do 100 matches. I will in a bit. Have to deliver in 2 hours. I’ll see if I can set it up with a slime.

Don’t throw around stats. What I can say from yesterday is that the nerf seems strong. BUT I can also interpret it as people having extremely weak builds. Which is another very real truth.

[rotund quail]

I tested the max possible protect chance, that's all I wanted to test

and for me it was 16%

looking forward to your testing

[tulip shale]

Many of the GS I fought yesterday we’re basically making fun of the game. And they got what they deserved. What I believe the goal should be, at least in pvp, is to choose between pact build, summon builds or block builds. Can’t have a build that does all 3 anymore. And that is perfect. That’s the goal, let’s see if they hit the mark

[tulip shale]

100 matches?

[rotund quail]

50 hits

dont have much time to test today

[tulip shale]

I do

I don’t see how that could be messed up so much if in beta it’s been working correctly all the time though

What skill were you using?

[rotund quail]

basic attack

[tulip shale]

Hmmm. I’ll use a spell. Not sure which yet

First turn hits only. Misses won’t count.

[umbral pine]

Actually misses do count if it attempt to land the hit on GS.

[tulip shale]

Idk if that’s true, so I eliminate it. Only hits

[dim nacelle]

Don't have the time to read the whole thread, but tbh, we're now comparable to realmshifter on defense

But we're still better.

Realmshifter doesn't even have second chance

[rotund quail]

at least we survive about 10% of the time

[dim nacelle]

Yeah.

[rotund quail]

I think there was second nerf in the beta

but I didnt know about it

[dim nacelle]

So honestly, I think it's an okay place to be at?

[rotund quail]

because current beta also has way lower protect chance

[tulip shale]

And today I probably do get to test another GS. Al 50 one. And it was the best defense pre nerf I’ve seen on a GS

That will also be interesting. And hopefully painful lol

But. Before all that. Breakfast. Be back in a bit. Lol

[rotund quail]

well at least they still have their dex lol

[umbral pine]

And follower to block as well.

[rotund quail]

my hypothesis is that eos shoulders got nerfed somehow

because pve is also affected

even though it wasnt mentioned in the patch

[tulip shale]

I like it for pve too. Floor 300 seems…like every other class? 😂

[rotund quail]

yeah but you dont have 100 floors of setup

[tulip shale]

Then don’t do 100 floor set ups

[rotund quail]

thats the only way to do gs endless lol

[hallow parrot]

there's the buff horse now

it can do your dirty work

[rotund quail]

not with those garbage rates

[dim nacelle]

Buff horse is a terrible idea for endless

It will buff itself, which is a wasted turn since you gotta kill it later, and you gotta summon it on your first slot, otherwise it will never have a turn

[slim ibex]

Wyvern speed 2 in a nutshell

[dim nacelle]

Furthermore, if it buffs you on accident you will lose out on the ability to Ophion your Jinns and Golems, which is potentially more of a time loss than a time save.

Also, 100 floor setups? My last setup was 270 floors

[rotund quail]

I dont bother with full setups anymore

[slim ibex]

Let's everyone HoC to deity, everything will be good

[rotund quail]

the floor 1183 run was close to 300 setup floors tho Im pretty sure

[rotund quail]

Im personally not a meta player tbh. GS is still the class I want to main but the nerfs have been quite rough ngl

the hydrus buff ultimately felt like a sidegrade as well

[tulip shale]

What are the ways to increase protect chance? Rift chest piece and augments only?

[ocean pumice]

idk if there's a summon protect amity, but there is a follower one so maybe

mainly augs and rift chest

[rotund quail]

6 augments and rift plate is the best you can do

[tulip shale]

Ok. Just making sure I’m not missing anything.

My slimes prolly won’t have that though.

[umbral pine]

You probably only need to test the default Battalions 3 protect chance.

[spring basin]

Personal test between my 250al26 RS and 250al26 GSA with full protect axe and rift summoner plate: 22 protects out of 100 attacks (with two summons)

[tulip shale]

Did missed count? Which attack?

[spring basin]

sortie 2. did not count miss

[rich token]

What's your overall level and AL in GS? GS was a joke in pvp to the point you needed NO investment or skill to acquire said territories while many of us have invested a year+ to compete for territory only to have it taken away in seconds over the past few months by a no skill, no grind for gear class by people who have played for 2 months because the class could not be stopped.

Offensively, they are still doing just fine grabbing territories. Just not as fast. Defensively wasn't an issue for us high AL multi hit spell players, but it was for people at a comparable level of a no AL GS

[tulip shale]

https://tenor.com/view/the-soul-man-niecy-nash-you-tell-em-baby-tell-them-encouragement-gif-5323473

[slender mulch]

This!

[rich token]

GS also isn't the only one to take a hit. DC almost never procs on my builds now, AV2 damage was halved, it's comparable to magic dagger only it can chain. Ultima can be shut down completely and has been able to for a long time. Only difference now is I can transference spam a gs on defense and actually stand a chance of winning

[slender mulch]

In case no one remembers, GS was the class that was top tier in PVP offense and defense. Low grind threshold, infinite M1, near 100% protection. Low tier players had no way to counter them unless they slaved thru 200k shards

I think a lot of the orna discord community is composed of t11s and high tier t10s who may not remember what it was like to struggle at the beginning

[tulip shale]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1113818756242739222

Y’all should be talking here too

[rotund quail]

and now it's below average at defense I guess

luckily everyone in my region is trash

[rough rover]

Agreed, GS was massively overpowered in PvP. Patch fixed that, may have been a little harsh on defence because it's bad now but I really don't mind it being bad because it was way too good before

[tulip shale]

I’m still having areas taken. But I’m not complaining. Feels more fair. But I think pve is where we have to take a look at now. To make sure it’s where everyone wants it to be and going forward what it’s going to become

[stark saffron]

I can confirm that I properly have 0 chance against the guy 100+ ALs over me in my area. Everything from BP to Summons 0.

If I ever move out of my area maybe I'll look into territories again.

[slender mulch]

100+ AL? where that at

only a few have that

[stark saffron]

SoCal

[slender mulch]

llrnil

i cant spell

dude's a beast. faced him when i came to visit and he 0'd me 2nd turn

[stark saffron]

I used to be able to face him with summons to an extent and then wittle him down but nop

[slender mulch]

is he sleep immune?

[stark saffron]

It's not like I can whip 100 ALs out of thin air

All he needs is DC to 0 my summons once his passives kick in

And I don't have Hydrus so I can't maximumer bp

[slender mulch]

geez louise. dude's on charmer too

[stark saffron]

Yop

[rotund quail]

how much hp does he have?

[slender mulch]

like 75k or something

[rotund quail]

oh lol I cant even oneshot that

[stark saffron]

75-80k when full territory boosted

And he blankets everything, difficult to find safe spots to be at in the areas that I play

I haven't seen someone as thorough with territories as he is

[worn basin]

Stasys + Doom him

[slender mulch]

maybe if AL gets softcapped next patch it'll be easier

[stark saffron]

I could. I tried starstruck build but starstruck is complete garbage

[worn basin]

Starstruck last too few turns for the long build up it has

[stark saffron]

It usually lasts 1 even with fomor debuff set

1 damage turn that is

[worn basin]

Once it lasted 3 turns for me

Never again lol

[stark saffron]

Hax

[charred roost]

Icloud?

[worn basin]

Imo it should have 2 turns build up and then at least 3 turns of damage

[stark saffron]

Nope

[charred roost]

😂

[stark saffron]

Icloud still rocks

I'll have to take time out of my d4 vacation to grind out hydrus so I can have 400k hp summons for people to want to nerf

[charred roost]

I wonder if I can beat cloud

[stark saffron]

Nop

Icloud too strong for you

[charred roost]

Ultma

[stark saffron]

Fake icloud

[fringe gazelle]

Yeah that's icioud

[stark saffron]

Totes fake

[brazen grove]

So if summoner was op In pvp

What Is this then

[rough rover]

Exactly, it's not anymore

That's good

We don't need to complain

[brazen grove]

Yea indeed summoner is not op anymore 😄 its useless now In pvp xD

[slender mulch]

or just that avidity is OP

don't be salty. GS had the time of their lives the past year taking territories here and there without much investment

now the class is brought down to earth with the rest of us mortals

feels like a big change cuz the class was way too strong in the past. expectations way beyond bounds

[radiant moth]

Yeah my blood pacts kinda feel like shit now, but using other classes for oneshots in PvP I get about the same results so I can't complain

As long as the real dedicated PvP players are happy I'm happy

[spring basin]

Repeated the test replacing the parry axe with the parry hammer (1 more parry adornment)...
... 19 protects out of 100 😂 it actually went down! Now that's more than bad rng

[rotund quail]

Its not worth investing into block chance anymore

The difference between max and min block chance is so small that it just isnt worth it

[spring basin]

Realized that. It became the ward game as for all other classes, which is boring. Bit sad for my chest piece and celestial weapon too, will miss them.

Wanted to leave a trace of the actual impact of the nerf, if by chance it gets revisited in the future updates.

[rotund quail]

With gs low base hp it's difficult to even prevent oneshots

This update pretty much destroyed gs pvp defense, but I guess there's nothing we can do about it

[trim thunder]

So, even if we gonna build full ward, we're gonna just get one-shotted in the end?

[errant nova]

If you can handle 150k DMG

[rotund quail]

Yeah I cant

Gs defense is shit now

Not even worth speccing into protect chance because it doesnt do shit anymore

I cant even do 150k damage as gs

Guess we're shit at everything now except endless

[slim ibex]

Keep lying

[rotund quail]

I cant

[slim ibex]

Double cast

[rotund quail]

Lmao

[slim ibex]

Now tell "I can't"

[rotund quail]

Hoc when

[slim ibex]

Deity less useless when

[dim nacelle]

Wrong thread for that

[slim ibex]

They closed the celestials deity chan

[dim nacelle]

In beta feedback, because it wasn't being touched on in beta,

You're free to open your own discussion thread

[slim ibex]

One day maybe

[rotund quail]

probably wont lead to anything useful tho

iirc Odie said in the orna legends GS channel that discussion threads is just a place for players to vent

I hope ORN is going to be the thing that'll help the studio make balancing decisions

[errant nova]

Thats Not true

Kek

WE all know the true

[slim ibex]

pat pat

[errant nova]

Well Welcome to rs life

[rotund quail]

maybe I can but then I have 500 dex or so

[rotund quail]

just did some testing regarding protect chance. With the max possible protect chance setup (rift summoner plate + 6 eos shoulders), I was protected 22 out of 100 times with 2 summons on the field

[tulip shale]

Has anybody done the protect chance with all summons on field?

My GS is too weak to do it

[rotund quail]

Tested base batallions 3 with @rough rover with this setup. We got 10 protects out of 100

its looking like 10% protect chance with no investment and about 20% with max investment

with 2 summons that is

[rotund quail]

With this setup we got 18 protects out of 100, max protect but this time with 5 summons

it's still very close to that 20%

overall, it looks like protect chance is ~5 times lower than it was before. When I tested this before with Short Asian Grandpa we got ~50% for base batallions 3 with 2 summons on the field and ~95% with max protect (which was 5 eos shoulders + rift plate)

[tulip shale]

Pre nerf was 50 and 95 with 2 summons?

And now with 5 summons it’s 18%?

[rotund quail]

apparently

although when I tested it solo I got 22% with 2 summons, also with a sample size of 100

[tulip shale]

Hmm

That’s different from my hits from last 2 days. Not sure what % to put it at, but I was skipping quite a bit. Even saw some double protects

Well…scratch that

2 of the guys had really bad builds

[rotund quail]

I still dont know what Odie meant with this tho

whether the 100% bonus is for 5 or 6 augments

and how much would rift plate be

from the testing it seems like riftplate + 6 augments is roughly double the protect chance

[mint saddle]

i understand it like this, when you have f.e. 25% chance, with the 100% boni its 50% protect chance

[rotund quail]

yeah that makes sense, but how do you get the 100% bonus exactly? Is that with 5 or 6 augments

[thorny crest]

Yeah, he's everywhere. And once his DC activates I just start doing 0s

[timid hound]

imo, context is important. you can scroll down after that screenshot for more info:

[stark saffron]

...wanna vent about it?

[rotund quail]

you are back?

[stark saffron]

Ye

Anything I miss here you want me to two copper?

[rotund quail]

just a few derailed discussion threads dw

nah jk it wasnt that bad

[tulip shale]

Yoooo😂

[dim shale]

have you ever heard of that thing called player discovery?

[clear gale]

BP is broken now. Benefactor has reduced BP damage, but with 5 summons on the field before I was hitting 26k with BP3 on other summoners with some pact items, then 16k after one patch, and now it's 918 damage as Benefactor with 5 summons and no pact gear. You broke it. GG

It needs to get fixed based on items. You changed the base skill so much that Benefactors are screwed, and people without said pact items are pretty screwed, too.

[tulip shale]

You forgot to say “like every other class”…

If they don’t have the gear, they don’t have the power.

😇😇Thanks

[clear gale]

I was correct. You can jump into RS with a weapon that's 1200 attack, have some attack gear with low crit overall, and do great damage with your skills. You don't need possibly 6 rounds of setup to do 1k damage with one of your base skills

Do you really think that GS is so special that you need to get gear that specifically increases pact abilities to make BP viable? No other class works that way. "like every other class" my ass

[radiant moth]

Blood pact should arguably be useless with benefactor

[dim shale]

if you need to setup for 6 turns you're most likely playing the bp game wrong

[rotund quail]

Bp3 doesnt do more damage than bp2 now in pvp, because of the M1 cap

But if you're dealing 900 with benefactor, then you'd still only do 1800 without

What is your build?

[dim shale]

how's the bp game nowadays? do people really not press bp2 turn 1 anymore?

[rotund quail]

You can still do that but you really need a celestial weapon and hydrus

If I use nekro + ithra on base GS I'm also only dealing like 35k

[worn basin]

Lvl 10 nekro + a kaladanda with hydrus, I wouldn't say it's bad damage

You can probably reache 80k with % higher ornates

[rotund quail]

yeah you need hydrus and/or a celestial weapon with eos arms to make BP usable

[worn basin]

I wouldn't say it's mandatory the cele weapon but it does help pushing higher dmg numbers faster

[rotund quail]

you only need ward turns + 25k hp to survive that damage tho, that's pretty easy to get

[worn basin]

True but I was looking from the point of view of someone without cele weapon

[raw knot]

took me a good 3s to understand why I never saw your white summons...

[worn basin]

Phantom hydra and phantom dragon new summons confirmed

[tulip shale]

His build is horrible. He said he has zero gear but complains of the hit

Realm can do big damage with 1,200 weapon. As swash, sacrificing every single defense.

But it’s fine. Squirm. He’s the best example of why GS got nerfed. His arguments

Hope he says more

[stark saffron]

Yes. Absolutely. Actual math and build dedication would reveal this to you. As for no other class working that way, please see the more popular Ultima builds as exhibit A.

[heavy sky]

Damn this turning into a Chuck roast thread

[stark saffron]

BP needed the pen nerf at minimum. That removed the lack of investiments required to punch above your weight class.

Summons just need a pen reduction and they fine. That way RSes can continue to crit you, gilgas can ss3, mage builds can ultima/av2 you for 6 digits on turn one.

Also that item is technically weaker than Charon staves

[rich token]

6 digits turn one with them require a lot of AL. GS requires no AL lol

[stark saffron]

So that won't make things worse

[rich token]

I'm 78 AL and don't get a 6 digit AV2 hit a lot of the time tbh

[timid hound]

Please ensure unreleased/incomplete gear is not brought into debates - thank you

[worn basin]

I don't think that was supposed to be here

[rich token]

Will do

[stark saffron]

Sounds like a gear issue.

[rich token]

Nah... definitely not lol

[stark saffron]

Totally is. You lack crit multipliers. I've seen heretics with less AL easily break 6 digits. Heck, GS builds focusing on Ultima were able to do it pre promo hands nerf

[rich token]

With AV2? We're talking turn 1. Not buffing

[stark saffron]

Correct

[rich token]

Yeah no, I have plenty of crit multipliers as well as magic lol

[stark saffron]

Isn't zypper AL 50 something?

[tulip shale]

Ultima builds at least are 245 at minimum

And never too OP

[rich token]

He also buffs like crazy and does it on raids... we're talking pvp here

[stark saffron]

So am I

[tulip shale]

Oh. You didn’t see me “zero” his 50m ultima build?

[stark saffron]

I didn't!

[tulip shale]

Ultima is never too OP in pvp

[stark saffron]

Lemme see lmao

I want that on my favorites bar asap

[tulip shale]

Yeah. Had him at 4k. He was fully buffed and I think I had only golem and DC

[rich token]

Arena and territory is very different. I've seen zippers gear. Ultima isn't hitting 50m in pvp unless you're hitting a deity and the person using Ultima is buffed 😆

[stark saffron]

Also I genuinely feel this is incorrect

But that's another discussion topic lol

[rich token]

Ultima has been shut down since the release of 80% element amities. Throw souls of rhada in there and Ultima is hitting 0

[grim drift]

Once u knew some1 is using ultima build, it can be hard countered by + elemental resistance amity and certain gear

[stark saffron]

Back to the summon build thing though. Yeah, they need less pen imo. But even then, there is already gear that significantly slaps down the damage from fomor event. Clearly this means the issue was resolved given development practices.(thisisajoke)

[tulip shale]

Not.

The gear is valhallan/summoner class only

[rich token]

^^

[stark saffron]

Not the fomorian king sets?

Which have part of those passives?

(Granted weaker yes but should still help)

[tulip shale]

Also. I really don’t like that counter. It’s almost like amities. I’ve never liked counters that can shut a build down completely with only investing in 1-2 slots

[tulip shale]

I’ve never heard of this.

[stark saffron]

Fair nuff

[grim drift]

well.. farming a good set of fomor king set is REALLY hard

[stark saffron]

Like I legit forgot that the dedicated set was class locked but, fomorian king set maybe. I'll test later

[stark saffron]

Phone some friends, share your crests, should help

[worn basin]

summon builds problem in pvp could be solved by turning benefactor bonus in a m2 bonus instead of a summon stat, that goes directly into m1

[rich token]

Are you talking about this?

[stark saffron]

Ye

[worn basin]

theoretically they give all 4 houses passive but with lesser effect

[stark saffron]

Kingdom buddy was testing the dedicated set but my dumbface forgot he was Beo

[clear gale]

Yeah, so as a benefactor and without pact specific gear I don't think BP3 should be useless in PvP.

No other class has a base skill that ends up being 100% useless "without specific gear"

[worn basin]

benefactor is made to be anti-BP specifically

[stark saffron]

Benefactor shouldn't be used for BP to begin with

You're shooting yourself in the foot and telling me it hurts dude.

[clear gale]

No, anti-pact. Read the description

[worn basin]

BP is a pact

[clear gale]

It doesn't mean it should do nothing

Much less effective

[stark saffron]

It's a 30% drop on bene spec iirc?

[worn basin]

doing 6 digit with a 70% less pact dmg wasn't supposed to be a thing

[stark saffron]

Yup

[worn basin]

30 on auriga 40 on bene iirc

[stark saffron]

Got'cha

[clear gale]

And why is that? Because it works off of the summons HP. Benefactor increases the summon HP, and other stats, so by not nerfing packs you'd make that the only specialization anyone would use.

[tulip shale]

Post your build. So people have context

[clear gale]

The problem is with M1 now

[worn basin]

there is no problem now, just change spec

don't use a spec that goes against pact

if you want to use pact

[stark saffron]

I need to make a sticker of nanomachines son that says multipliers instead

[worn basin]

this is without cele weapon fyi

it's not 6 digit but is not bad damage

[clear gale]

No other class has a specialization that makes their base skills garbage

Not one

[stark saffron]

That's with bp2 as well

[clear gale]

It should do less damage, absolutely. It's wasted space now

[tulip shale]

😂

[stark saffron]

Okay. Run seq on RS please

How about tamer on GS?

[worn basin]

don't blame other classes if you don't use the right spec for the right spell

[tulip shale]

He’s trolling guys. His issue is gear. Not the spec

[stark saffron]

He's gotta be lol

[tulip shale]

That’s why he doesn’t post it. I think he had a typhon staff last time

[stark saffron]

[clear gale]

I can still do damage with RS as sequencer. My Sortie and realmstrikes aren't under 1k damage against an enemy with low def

To have 5 pets out and have BP3 do the same damage as BP2, and it's under 1k damage, is a joke

[stark saffron]

Then gear up buttercup

[worn basin]

specialization, as name says, specialize you in a certain playstyle: benefactor boosts summon play, sequencer/maji boost mage play

[stark saffron]

Because literally no one else is pulling your numbers

[clear gale]

You are missing the point

[heavy sky]

Chuck enjoying the roast

[stark saffron]

Chuck too busy upchuckin' this chat.

[tulip shale]

We’ve told him how to get his numbers up lots of times. He’s said that farming for a nekro is difficult. Well…can’t help ya then

[stark saffron]

Celestial stick easier to farm anyway

Ithra staff off hand to help with low dex issues

[tulip shale]

Well if he’s using BP on towers…..🥲

[worn basin]

he should just use another spec to raise BP damage

[stark saffron]

GS zerker

[worn basin]

[timid hound]

Auriga/Benefactor are both player options designed to get away from the Pact gameplay. Trying to maximize Pact damage while using them will definitely lead to suboptimal results.

[stark saffron]

Odie coming in with the steel chair

[tulip shale]

Auriga? He don’t grind. Jeez. Can’t imagine him being too happy about the damage then 😆

[stark saffron]

(That being said would love life pact to be useful to Auriga but 400k fat dragons... hrmmmmm.....)

[dim shale]

just some random guy with 20 ALs less than you hitting 6 digits turn 1 no buffs
tober is right, definitely an issue on your side

https://youtu.be/UlBIAiFAeng

[stark saffron]

[clear gale]

I'm talking about base GS. The damage is very very low. BP3 don't the same damage as BP2 in PvP seems wrong. I understand celestial classes are different, but the base class shouldn't be nerfed to Mordor

Benefactor says "significantly decrease the effectiveness of pacts". I completely understand the logic and reasoning behind that, but now the damage is so low that you have to have a celestial class and have to have the most specific gear for the spell that GS comes with the be of any use

[dim shale]

wow he really ignored odie specifically saying benefactor

[clear gale]

I don't think I did

[stark saffron]

You did on the second half but I want to touch on the first half

You're saying BP3 does less than BP2?

[timid hound]

i used a slash (/) - so referring to either Auriga or Benefector

[stark saffron]

Or that BP2 does way less than bp3?

[rotund quail]

I think bene us -50%

[clear gale]

Same damage in PVP

[rotund quail]

But benefactor should be a 0.5x M2 multiplier, so if you hit 1k with bene you'd still only hit 2k without

[rotund quail]

It does exactly the same damage since the M1 cap

Bp2=bp3 in pvp unless you have really low hp summons

[worn basin]

BP3 in pvp just needs less hp from summons to reach m1=3

the base point for chuck is, don't use a spec that decreases BP damage if you want to use BP

don't expect to be doing high damage with a spec that is meant for something opposite

[rotund quail]

Gsh bene used to work before the nerf

[dim shale]

but he wants bene to specifically boost all summoner related stuff by 999x without caps and penalties

[rotund quail]

But now that summon hp doesnt really affect bp damage in pvp anymore, bene is just a big damage reduction

[worn basin]

gsh and bene passive nullify each other tho

[clear gale]

BP3 and BP2 do the same damage in PVP. Why should the base class, GS, be so polarized? You either rely on your pets completely with benefactor or all on BP with sequencer? That seems wrong. It would be fine if celestial classes worked that way and we're stronger on the side they focused on, but not base GS

[mint saddle]

spec has nothing to do with cele classes

and sequenzer can give you a double cast -> double dmg!!

[clear gale]

It would be fine if benefactor increased the summon HP by 30%, reduced BP effectiveness by half, and you could still do damage as Benefactor with BP, but nothing crazy. Doing sub 1k is a joke

[worn basin]

if benefactor could do everything it wouldn't be a specialization

[rotund quail]

Idk if this calculation is correct but it may even have been a damage boost lol

[dim shale]

told you he wants his bp to deal 1bil with bene without spec swapping

[clear gale]

Your not listening

[worn basin]

some commas are missing there I think

[clear gale]

Good luck keeping the game balanced 😁

[dim shale]

who's the one that didn't listen to odie lmao

[stark saffron]

Sorry Chuck but you're the one not picking up what everyone else is trying to tell you.

[worn basin]

also if you are doing 1k with bene it means you were doing 2k without

since it is a x0.5 on m2

[stark saffron]

Yeah.

[dim shale]

if you're the only person saying otherwise, 99% of the time you're the wrong one

maybe time to drop that ego or pride a little bit

[mint saddle]

lol, 0AL with only crowsong equiped and with bene, i deal already 3,3k in arena

[worn basin]

exactly

[mint saddle]

dont know what you are doing

[worn basin]

he must be using t1 weapons

[stark saffron]

Not trying to harp on you, Chuck, but really. Everything you're saying points to the stuff we have been, repeatedly, trying to tell you

I legit do not know how else to stress the points being made

[dim shale]

nah he's using common balor crown and fyc like the typical stereotype GS players

[mint saddle]

and no weapon..

[dim shale]

[worn basin]

auriga + benefactor

[heavy sky]

Isn't chuck saying BP 3 and BP 2 hit the same? Irrelevant of gear or spec or anything?

[mint saddle]

my t6 nolans staff deal more dmg than he

[worn basin]

set up

Another try without cele weapon

i see gear/skill issue

[dim shale]

yep pie already said it, but that's not what chuck complains about

[heavy sky]

Oh ok

Continue roast

[dim shale]

he's complaining his bp isn't doing 1bil while using bene spec

[worn basin]

also nerfing myself more than chuck since auriga is an extra 30% reduction on pacts

[worn basin]

and should be so

benefactor is made to boost summon play

maji/sequencer are for player damage

now the argument could be if benefactor should be a 130% straight boost to summon stats or something else

[dim shale]

i think i forgot to turn off tag on reply, mb

[worn basin]

imo should give a m2 boost

and if you want to increase summon stats you gear into it

[dim shale]

i agree to that one, bene m2 boost for summons

[worn basin]

pvp wise there would be no more complaints about summons having to much penetration

[stark saffron]

Agreed

That or swap Benefactor stat boost into group buff ATK/MAG 1 and 2

[rotund quail]

that would also nerf summon raiding even more tho lol

[stark saffron]

Would it though?

[rotund quail]

yes

[stark saffron]

Would it reaaaaaally?

[rotund quail]

yes

[stark saffron]

[rotund quail]

M1 > M2

[stark saffron]

Oh no I guess VSS remains just as important as before

[rotund quail]

also if bene is just a M2 boost they'd have less hp as well

buggane would be too squishy for a lot of raids I imagine

but summon raiding is already dead so idk if we can kill it at this point

[stark saffron]

Clearly we need a summon w/ bloodpact 3

[rotund quail]

clearly we need ultima summons

[buoyant kestrel]

Just have swash summons

[stark saffron]

Nah. What was that t9 discount ultima spell from celestials?

[rotund quail]

omniblast or smth?

[stark saffron]

Something like that

[rich token]

Tell me you don't do territories without telling me. I can do it too. Doesn't mean it's optimal in territories and you don't hit the same depending on influence. Way more factors go into territory than arena which is meant to be easily farmable.

Territories is still easy mode for no AL GS. They just struggle to hold territories with the battalion nerf.

[pearl mica]

arena isn't meant to be easily farmable, it's meant to match you up against similar level/AL/gear opponents.

where territory is a free for all,

[rotund quail]

ara vesta > blood pact atm

[rich token]

Actually yes it is. I'm not going to search for the post where they state that they want to patch the pvp side without making arena unfarmable. Pretty sure it was in the patch notes?

Av2 is zeroed out so easily lol

If you miss, it's zeroed

[rotund quail]

I think BP is fine right now though. I'm only worried if the pact augments get nerfed in the future

if that happens then BP will become complete shit

[rich token]

I'm guessing that's a big reason why they waited on adjusting augments. Had too many nerfs in one patch

Well the larger adjustments they plan on doing. They still pushed out the ones they mentioned

[rotund quail]

the pact augments are still 20% rn, and my damage is 110-120k. If the pact augments go to 10% I'd be dealing like 70k

[stark saffron]

70k on turn one is complete shit?

[rotund quail]

yeah it is

thats not enough to hit treshold consistently

and thats with a full glass cannon build so if I get hit I die

it's also important to look at what other classes capable of

[stark saffron]

That's like, 35k in one shot guaranteed if they're running wards up passive/amity, isn't it?

[rotund quail]

yeah and people of similar asc level have a lot more than 35k hp

[stark saffron]

Soooooo

[rotund quail]

even my GS has nearly 50k hp

[stark saffron]

That would kill one shot meta is what you're saying?

[rotund quail]

if we kill oneshot meta we shouldn't do it for GS only

[stark saffron]

Why not? Clearly GS was the only problem with pvp

[radiant moth]

I think overall GS PvP is pretty similar to other classes', the only weird thing is how the formula works and how that impacts the power level of bp2 and bp3

[stark saffron]

Ye

[radiant moth]

Other than that I think it's pretty fair on offense now, not entirely sure about defense but it should be way more fun to fight against now

[rotund quail]

I still think batallions was nerfed too much

protect chance is like 5 times lower than before