GS PVP

[worn basin]

it's definetly on topic

[stark saffron]

What are you using?

[clear gale]

We're talking about how BP is broken, and I've argued every point of it "being broken". The fact that it's failed me a few times, though I hardly use it, is not relevant

[stark saffron]

No, this is relevent. If you're putting your own personal experiences into your argument, that's gonna get disputed.

BP has been considered broken by a lot of people since pretty much release. You are saying you have a situation where despite your efforts, a heretic/deity barely took any damage

I want to see that

Provide the evidence. Loadout please.

Cuz we got a whoooooooole lot of it suggesting that BP builds can slap down everything regardless of how the defender reacts to it

[clear gale]

I don't rely on BP which is why it's not relevant

[stark saffron]

That's not an excuse

[clear gale]

I'm not built for that. You guys argued that it hits hard even with X Y and Z, but it doesn't. You can't take any loadout and kill with it

[stark saffron]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1098180686248161313

Read up

[clear gale]

Every class has the potential to kill in turn 1, but I'm not using that approach and because of that I don't kill in one turn. You're not getting my gear

[stark saffron]

It's got screenshots, recordings, and repeated testing

And this is in its nerfed state in beta.

[clear gale]

My gear is less important than the loadout of the guys who barely took BP damage

[stark saffron]

Actually, your loadout is important. Multipliers are the main source of damage for BP

Nekro, rift helm, arms of eos, etc

[clear gale]

None of those

[worn basin]

if your loadout is not optimized for BP you not doing enough damage with it is pretty much invalid

[stark saffron]

Then sorry bro then you're completely missing the problem lol

[clear gale]

Every class has the potential to kill in turn 1. Every class.

Every class has the potential to negate second chance. Every class.

What's there to change?

[stark saffron]

"People survive my attack because I didn't build for attack!"

[worn basin]

and starts spamming the same message again

[stark saffron]

Yeah. GG there. Bro. If you're still stuck on asking that question, read up on the other convos

[clear gale]

No, that's not what I was arguing. I was arguing that a tanky Heretic (squishy class) could survive a noob BP hit with room to spare and one hit in return

[worn basin]

missing on the fact we are not talking damage but the ability to negate/reduce it

[stark saffron]

Heretic ain't a squishy class lol

[clear gale]

It's not? Sure seems like it has less defenses than diety and Gilga

[worn basin]

it has 3 defensive passive

1 of them being a second chance that activates iconoclast if procced

raising again stats

[stark saffron]

Passive that randomly negates elemental damage, second chance, and steadfast passives. Decent res on top of that

[worn basin]

200 less res than diety

seems pretty high to me

[clear gale]

How much of that affects BP?

[worn basin]

it doesn't that's the problem

[clear gale]

How much defense do they have?

[worn basin]

BP hits on res

[clear gale]

So RS and Summoner can still damage the tanky class?

[worn basin]

you can have 20k res, BP would still do full damage

[stark saffron]

A full kit BP build, in beta, only had a 3k damage difference between 1300 res and 7400 res

[worn basin]

yes

this guy hitting 57k on nearly 14k res

with BP1

on 1300 res it would have hit 60k

[clear gale]

I don't see what's broken. If heretic can kill in one hit AND be killed in one hit, just like thief and Summoner, then what needs to change?

[worn basin]

with the same set up he negated verse 4, which has higher M1 in beta right now

[stark saffron]

The issue is that someone who is building defensively is not being rewarded for their efforts

And that is in large part to the pen issue on BP

[worn basin]

still missing the point, having potential to 1 shot and 1 shot no matter what I do are two very different things

[stark saffron]

Exactly this

[clear gale]

That's true for every class. You don't see anyone building a tanky thief or summoner for PvP

[stark saffron]

"Tanky Summoner"

Sup.

[clear gale]

It's not a one shot no matter what
We've gone over this

[worn basin]

prove it

[stark saffron]

He's just gonna remove all his gear again and then claim it doesn't work

[worn basin]

if you don't prove it showing your gear you can't say it's possible

[clear gale]

Steadfast, amity, dexterity, followers blocking attacks,

[worn basin]

steafast is useless against BP

dex, block chance and amity are RNG

[clear gale]

Sorry, whatever gives second chance

[clear gale]

So it works the same for every class

[worn basin]

we already said summons and pets negate it

[clear gale]

Every class can negate it

Stop arguing in a circle

[worn basin]

no because with enough def/res I can negate realmstrikes ultima and verse

[clear gale]

Not without ALs

[worn basin]

yes even without, if not negate, reduce it enough to let me buff and counter

[clear gale]

Every time?

[worn basin]

yes, that's the point

[clear gale]

So you can never be beat by anyone who isn't a summoner? And that's fair?

[worn basin]

you would have to buff to raise your damage and overcome your enemy

[clear gale]

Every time

[worn basin]

is it fair that BP ignores the efforts I put to build defensively?

[worn basin]

only on tanky enemies

[clear gale]

So you'll still lose to the squishy ones who can one hit kill?

[worn basin]

if you are not tanky

[ocean pumice]

nah you'll win from the squishy ones cause you go first on pvp offense

unless you lose the second chance coinflip

[clear gale]

No no, you. You're tanky and you want to survive a 1st round hit so that you can win the fight every time because there's no one you lose to after you buff?

[worn basin]

why you are talking absolutes?

[clear gale]

I'm summarizing what you've argued in the last 5 mins

[ocean pumice]

It's not like anyone is saying we should go from 'offense wins 99% of the time' to 'you can't beat a defensive build'

[clear gale]

Seems kinda silly to me

[ocean pumice]

well other than you

[worn basin]

i never talked about every time

[clear gale]

Right in the middle there..

[worn basin]

i was talking that with enough def/res you can reduce or negate damage

[clear gale]

I see. I thought the other response of yours was to the point of being able to counter and win every time because you put so much effort into the game

You just need to build tankier then? Summoner forever changed the game and you should incorporate that into your tanky build

[worn basin]

what I'm saying is RNG can't be the only way to counter something

[clear gale]

Hmmm..

But that's enough to counter a squishy thief currently. They never survive after the first round, and if they do they don't have enough attack to kill anything that buffs like you

Roshambo

You can't have rock win against everything

[worn basin]

if you buff first turn they attack you, at that point wins who have better build

[clear gale]

Tankier* build wins, which means the thief always loses

[worn basin]

if you are tanky enough, not everyone has 200 onc, 200 fyc and 200 avalon leggings

it's more complex than just rock paper scissor

statuses are also a factor

[clear gale]

Steadfast?

[worn basin]

assassin + nagg belt

[clear gale]

Briny? Ymir?

[worn basin]

stasis

starstruck

doom

[clear gale]

You're not giving up much def by having those

Thieves don't have that

[worn basin]

that's why is more complex than just rock paper scissor

atm is just, who goes first one taps

[clear gale]

Thieves lose. GS losses at defending. No one should be able to hold for long periods of time against another T10

[worn basin]

why take territories if you can't think of keeping them

[clear gale]

Because that's how the game is

If people can't take them from you why would they even play

That's how you kill a game

[worn basin]

grind and overcome those who you can't beat

[clear gale]

Oh, you lost the territory. Go take it back.

[clear gale]

This is an absolute

[clear gale]

Can't do this against your absolute. Care to argue against yourself?

[worn basin]

it's not an absolute, if I take a territory I try to keep them somehow

what you are saying is there is no point in trying

we are getting away from the thread

the point is BP ignores res

[clear gale]

You're tanky. You're keeping them, just not against someone who has built around killing in the 1st round. Why shouldn't his build work? Isn't his goal as important as yours?

[worn basin]

other spells don't

[clear gale]

So your goal of surviving the 1st round is more important than his goal of killing the 1st round? Why?

That's where the RNG comes into play and makes it fair

[worn basin]

you forget there is also a influence mechanic that prevents you to keep em indefinetly

[worn basin]

you can't survive first round no matter what against BP as I and many others already demonstrated

unless RNG kicks in

while for other spells you can do something outside RNG

and that isn't fair

[radiant moth]

skills rng like dodge/block/counter stops: everything
skills def/res stops: everything except blood pact

thats the literal only point of the entire thread dont make it complicated

[worn basin]

perfectly summed up I would say

[worn basin]

we could pin this imo

[radiant moth]

no need, literally everyone is on the same page except chuck

[rotund quail]

chuck is trolling

[clear gale]

Build a GS without celestial gear or adornments. Nothing from towers. Do the same with the other classes and see if it still holds true. It looks like you guys are arguing ALs, then argued adornments and items found in towers. I'm trying to eliminate broken items

[radiant moth]

thats my gs

i have barely done towers lol

using double nekro staff instead of celestial quarterstaff and nekro staff offhand

thoughts on my message

this one

[clear gale]

I've gotta say, it's something to do with your items. It's not BP or the summoner.

Them I saw you used double Nekro. I haven't leveled mine up yet, but I don't think it's pact passive will increase with levels. Still going to test that, but here are two people in arena

[radiant moth]

yeah you need those leveled, changes made it so magic affects blood pact damage way more now

[clear gale]

Even with an extra 15% dmg at full HP and I don't come close to one hitting anyone

[radiant moth]

you will be hitting way way way harder if you upgrade them

and im assuming you are running sequencer right?

[clear gale]

Then the issue is with an item, not with a class

[radiant moth]

whats the issue with the item?

[clear gale]

It does too much damage in PVP when leveled up?

[radiant moth]

well it does comparable damage to other classes, but again

the damage is not the issue

its that it always deals the same damage lol

also you are hitting for some pretty puny numbers dude ngl

[clear gale]

I know. That's BP 1 and 2 on turn 1 rather than having 5 summons

[radiant moth]

you always use bp2 in pvp, since it still takes one turn

here is how much im hitting with your summons

keep in mind after you get the higher hp summons damage skyrockets

[clear gale]

I don't. You lower BP and you really cripple the other summoners who aren't abusing how things work with your items

And ascension lvl 8

[radiant moth]

the enemy gs is al8

but again, that literally doesnt matter since it always deals the same damage

and i couldnt quite get what you mean by crippling other summoners

[clear gale]

Can you die in one turn with that setup?

[radiant moth]

well if im on defense yeah ofc

[clear gale]

Ok then

It's not broken

[radiant moth]

the setup isnt broken sure, blood pact as a spell is though, since it ignores resistance

even if blood pact had a way way lower penetration i would still oneshot that gs, but i wouldnt oneshot people who have defensive setups, which i do now

[radiant moth]

also i dont get this, the setup is supposed to be for offense, not defense

if i wanted to i could(for example) take territories as this and then swap to a setup with insane defense so i slow down people who want to take them back

you arent stuck to one build

[clear gale]

That happens all the time. The diety I fight for territories with does this. I try to take his territories while he's switched his setup to take mine. It's a never ending battle

[radiant moth]

yes but i dont know why you dont understand that gs is an extreme outlier in this case, since this specific blood pact build is the only thing in the game that beats extreme defensive setups

sure, you cant get that high numbers yet

its not that hard to achieve though, and gs is the literal only class that does this

people who main other classes feel left out since they cant just completely negate deities going full tank in their territory fights

and deities feel scammed because all the work they put into their setups is for nothing

[clear gale]

It shouldn't be the only thing that beats extremely defensive setups. That's an issue with balancing how defensive players can be

[radiant moth]

well i think the issue with balancing is how well blood pact does into defensive players

and i believe most of the experienced players would agree

[clear gale]

Nah. If players can really hold onto territory for a long time it's bad for the game

Really, really bad for the game

[radiant moth]

well as you said above, people swap setups

thats when you attack

also they dont really hold the territory forever, you can still chip through, they just make it so it takes you long enough so you dont try, which is literally the point

[clear gale]

I attack regardless. I just don't retake the territories as quickly.

[radiant moth]

well as gs you take them instantly

literal only class you take territories absolutely instantly with 0 skill

you just click bp2 and they die

[clear gale]

No, exploiting the items you take them instantly

Which takes time and effort

And materials

[radiant moth]

so does building a defensive deity that people cant take territories from easily, but you say its bad for the game

although it admittedly takes way rarer items, more effort and more materials

[clear gale]

The items need to be changed, not the skills or the GS. The class isn't broken without those items, therefore the items need tweaking

[radiant moth]

if the items get nerfed, pve takes a hit

[clear gale]

It doesn't matter about m1 or Penn if the item doesn't drastically increase the damage the way it does

[radiant moth]

noone has an issue with the pve, if anything its on the weaker side

[clear gale]

You can nerf it for PVP

[radiant moth]

you can also nerf the spell in pvp lol

its literally the same outcome

[clear gale]

The spell isn't broken

[radiant moth]

so you are saying nekro staff is broken and not the spell

i can show you an image of me hitting 100k blood pact turn one without nekro staff

[ocean pumice]

Being the only spell to completely ignore def and res is broken

[clear gale]

Nerfing the spell for PVP hurts the summoners who DON'T have those items to abuse

[radiant moth]

it doesnt

i can hit 100k turn one

[clear gale]

It's not because the spell is WEAK without the items

[radiant moth]

again, its not

[ocean pumice]

all spells are weak without items, buff all spells

[clear gale]

Do it without those items. I did and I couldn't get your results

[ocean pumice]

[radiant moth]

alright give me a sec

[clear gale]

I showed you my setup and the results. You do the same

[radiant moth]

okie dokie

[rotund quail]

Thats what he said to be fair

[clear gale]

If you eat 2 cherries a day and then decide to add 2 scoops of ice cream for each cherry you eat, are you going to blame the cherries when you get fat or get diabetes?

[radiant moth]

yo chuck do you want me to use the same summons you had?

nvm i will

[clear gale]

Sure

[clear gale]

It'd be nice to know your total magic as well. I was benefactor and didn't switch to sequencer, so it'd be nice to compare the effectiveness of summon HP vs total magic

[radiant moth]

summons are low level, so damage isnt that high, but im basically handicapping myself

[ocean pumice]

Doesn't benefactor have reduced pact effect?

[radiant moth]

yes it does

by a lot

...

[ocean pumice]

So you actively make your own bp worse and then claim it's fine

[radiant moth]

6100 magic with this

again, its nowhere close to as high as i can get it

low level summons, no nekro staves my boots dont have azure pinions, weapons arent fully adorned etc

they arent even the bis weapons if you dont want to use nekro staves

[clear gale]

Ahh you're right. I didn't notice that before

[clear gale]

Double my magic, and I had the debuff from benefactor

[radiant moth]

well yes

again, your setup is really bad

you werent using 2 staves

and you werent even sequencing

that byitself will boost your damage by a ton

[clear gale]

Benefactor is like -30% pact effectiveness then. You're increased magic is the other half of the damage difference between your hit vs my hit

[radiant moth]

my magic is increased largely because im sequencer

since it gets a boost to magic when dual wielding

and you werent dual wielding

so sequencer increases damage by a ton if you factor both of those

benefactor is bad for pvp, its a literal debuff

[clear gale]

Lol my offhand was 250 magic plus 125 ward

[radiant moth]

yeah exactly

[clear gale]

So it's not as strong as a sequencer with dual staves, but it's a compromise between offense and defense

[radiant moth]

defense which is fully irrelevant in a supposed oneshot pvp build

[clear gale]

That's not what I use

[radiant moth]

thats what you were trying to do, no?

[clear gale]

Never tried before. Those were my first attempts 😋

[radiant moth]

you showed your low damage, i told you your setup was bad and you needed nekro staves, you told me they are the broken part and you wanted to see damage without them

i showed you how it still oneshots without them

still not convinced blood pact is the problem?

[clear gale]

Eh, you just need to be able to resist it a little bit more with resistance 😜

[radiant moth]

yep, thats what we are all saying

glad we are on the same page

[clear gale]

Maybe.. 2k resistance will negate 5k dmg from BP

😂

[radiant moth]

not sure how the formulas work honestly, havent delved that much in orna math

but it for sure needs atleast some influence in bp damage

but btw, its even worse than this

some guys hit 250k turn one

without double cast

@rotund quail how much is your highest turn one blood pact?

solo

[rotund quail]

In theory about 1.5m with a quickcasted and doublecasted BP3

[radiant moth]

xd

[clear gale]

What does your amity do? Is it crit?

[radiant moth]

bp cant crit

my amity was oneshot protection chance, so on the offchance i miss and the enemy gets a chance to attack back, sometimes its negated

but for maximum offense you'd want summon stats, so you get more blood pact damage cause higher health, and doublecast chance

but since you oneshot without it, i dont bother using one like that

[rotund quail]

It was a summon stat amity yeah

[radiant moth]

raid level damage turn one, epic

i really need to get a celestial staff soon, but havent looked for towers

i wonder if building a tower with my limited shards at my ot is even worth, since low floor towers are bad for shards

[rotund quail]

If that is a tower you want to farm for augments, I dont see why not

[tulip shale]

Do it then. 🙄

You really like to ignore absolutely everything 😂

[radiant moth]

well he was obviously trollling

but atleast he got tired now lol

[stark saffron]

Mhm. Pretty sure trolling

[tulip shale]

Had to be. For my sanity I will think it was

[radiant moth]

but dude pie can get 1.5mil turn one

infinite penetration

thats actually nuts

im like hitting for twice that when im raiding bro

[tulip shale]

Yeah. I hadn’t seen one that high yet

[rotund quail]

Fux said he could reach 2m

[tulip shale]

I mean. No one would’ve known that. That could only be seen after ascensions

[clear gale]

Wasn't trolling. Tried arena with seq and the low level nekro staves, and I could one hit almost everyone. I was averaging 24k dmg with only 4k magic, but I had a lot of missed and a lot of players get protected. It doesn't seem like a guaranteed win at lvl 235

[subtle edge]

yeah, like I said, I have a 500k bp2 on turn1/unbuffed on live.
2mil if bp3 is quick + double cast.

on beta it was what, 180k? pretty big reduction from 500k

[rotund quail]

Im assuming thats your max damage setup

I wouldnt want to use a max damage setup with GS dex

[clear gale]

I still don't think GS is very broken. In fact, a lot of other classes that SHOULD be able to kill turn 1 but can't just because you have a really tanky setup is broken. You'll only get more tanky with each turn you survive, but you probably only need 2-3 turns to kill the one hit wonder. Tell me that's not broken.

And don't equate it with skill. "It takes 0 skill to use that and kill in one turn." It also takes 0 skill to amass the best gear and stack stats. It takes time, and your time spent should be rewarded by surviving turn 1 against someone who's been T10 for two months, but not against everyone. The fact that you spend a lot of time in the game, collected these items, have this squishy build, and can kill in one turn is great. You should be rewarded for your efforts and kill someone who tries to hold the entire city. Doesn't matter how much influence they have on that territory. You built squishy but strong. They'll only get stronger with each passing turn. You should be rewarded with being able to kill them (minus the RNG chance they stay alive) just as much as they are rewarded for being sturdy AF against everyone else

[radiant moth]

well in general i think a good rule to balance is to make the outliers more like everyone else, not the other way around

gs is an outlier in this, so it should get adjusted

[clear gale]

I took my "one shot" 24k average damage BP build to the road yesterday. While I was killing most in the arena, I had a lot of blocked attacks and missed. I wasn't as optimized as I could be, so that outcome was fair. The build was worse against the diety who has controlled all of the land in my city for about 2 years. My average damage dropped down to 18k damage, and it hardly ever landed. Out of the six territories I tried to take I was able to get two. His follower blocked about half of my unsuccessful attacks, and the other half were misses. If he was playing his own defense rather than the AI, he could have killed me in one round without needing to buff, but he doesn't have any offensive spells in his loadout right now. That seemed pretty fair as well considering he has played the game for a year longer than me and has gathered defensive items, and I hadn't optimized that build. I don't think I have enough resources to overcome the high RNG aspect of the fight, but it would be something to work towards if I wanted to go that route. Fair.

The insane damage that BP does in PVP is overkill. A kill is still a kill, though the damage it does shouldn't be that high, either. I believe that if you are determined to kill your opponent on your first turn and understand there is RNG that could prevent that, great. You should still be favorable to win against your opponent to reflect the time and effort you put into your build, it shouldn't be a guarantee, and your chances of winning as the fight goes on should get lower proportionally to the tanks. The same should be true for all classes that don't get as buffed as the tanky classes the longer the fight goes on. You spent your time trying to get to that point, so you should be able to kill in turn one with the right build and strategy.

.
On the flip side, the tanky classes should be rewarded for the time and effort they put in to get the items and make the build. No one should be unkillable on the first turn. The fact that the glass cannon has put just as much time into their build as you have, but they can't kill you turn 1 because you reduce their damage is disheartening. Players on both sides should be equally rewarded for their efforts. So, you might not survive turn 1 against everyone, but you can survive against most. Your survivability increases as the fight goes on, and that glass cannon's chance to succeed starts to dwindle. Everyone is happy.

That means BP should still do a lot of damage in PVP. The overkill numbers I'm sure are disheartening, but it should still kill. Tweak it.

The other fragile classes should also be able to kill turn 1. The fact that their damage can be so drastically reduced before buffs is disgusting. That needs to change.

[radiant moth]

i think most people agree it should still be able to kill

[tulip shale]

Another explanation to your theory is that your build is terrible. You’re asking for changes based on your build being bad

[radiant moth]

and while your build is heavily unoptimised, you can still deal that 24k to someone who you wouldnt be able to scratch with any other class

thats the issue

[tulip shale]

Gear has always been central to the game. Good gear is required for good builds. For everyone. Offense, defense, and whatever else may be. Summoners require a lot less good gear. 24k on what I assume is a decent deity? Yeah. Only summoner can hit that.

[radiant moth]

he hits 24k on everyone because his build is bad lol

[tulip shale]

It’s probably frustrating to have problems when facing defensive players. I get that. But everyone…and I mean EVERYONE has gone through that, and they have to grind through it. That’s the point of the game

[radiant moth]

this kinda brings to light an issue in these discord discussions

a lot of people speak for stuff they dont even understand

some people started playing 2 months ago, are already t10 and think they know everything about the game

like the guy isnt even level 240, so his blood pact build is literally objectively bad

he doesnt have the tanky summons

[tulip shale]

True. It’s not even that his build is bad. His account isn’t even BP ready

[radiant moth]

exactly

funniest part is you could argue it is

since i was hitting like 50k with the non tanky summons at that level

with double nekro staves

which was effectively enough to kill everyone

skyrocketed my colliseum winrate etc

[clear gale]

I'm not asking for anything.

If you take the time to read you'll clearly see you weren't the first person to say the build isn't right. Instead of reading you jump straight into insults. Well played

[tulip shale]

This is really unpleasant to deal with.
Month 7-8. 300k ward? Nothing. 500k ward? Nothing. Dex? Nope. 75k hp? Nope. Block chance? Nope. Double 20% protect amities? Nope. Any other class? Nope. Second chance? Nope.

SECOND CHANCE! It blows my mind how this is still live.

[radiant moth]

I don't think the nerf in beta is big enough to fix it even tbh

[tulip shale]

I really want to tag Odie man

I just don’t understand how it got this far

[radiant moth]

Well designing a summon based class in every game is a nightmare I feel

[tulip shale]

I mean more about the after. Not the class.

Like…Riftrogue gear. Who on earth thought that was a good idea?!

Several blood pact multipliers. Knowing it was waaaay busted

What ended up happening is they can max dex, increase summon damage and keep BP high all at once.

[rotund quail]

Summon damage doesnt do anything on gs hydrus tho

Hydrus summons have like half the stats

[tulip shale]

1 damage is enough

[dim nacelle]

It's enough to delete second chance though

[radiant moth]

Tbf summons need to deal like 2 dmg

Yeah lol

[tulip shale]

It’s about the second chance

[radiant moth]

Maybe summons waiting a turn or two in pvp

Might be a good change

[tulip shale]

Some people might say I’m getting a taste of my own medicine. But am I? I’ve never used anything like this. Basically everywhere I’ve ever been I need to hit multiple times. If people defend I struggle more, or I hit dead accounts. But that BP build is just so bad for the game

And thank god pvp is just a fraction of the game. But some people have been getting their butts handed to them for months now

[rotund quail]

The penetration issue also hasnt really been resolved in the beta

For some reason it still has more than 3 M1

I do think that the batallions nerf is going to make gs defense bearable. Protect chance is 25% at base and with max investment it's like 60%, however you are sacrificing a lot of hp and ward to achieve that

[tulip shale]

None of these worked

[rotund quail]

Is that on the beta?

[tulip shale]

No

I asked what first turn damage was, he said 150. So I went 76k hp.

And then he says….oh. I can go higher if I take off rift gear

🤦

76k hp is sooooo far off it’s ridiculous. He could prolly push for 200k turn 1

[rotund quail]

I mean yeah, everyone knows bp is broken atm

[tulip shale]

Lol. Some still defend it.

Ahhh. Whatever

Think positive. 250k areas.

Makes it easier

[rotund quail]

The M1 issue really needs to be resolved first

[tulip shale]

Yeah. Agree. That’s the really horrible part.

Resistance is a dead stat

[dim nacelle]

The only thing I struggle against on gs pvp offense is dexterity. Enemy deities will dodge 40% of my slaps at all times.
That being said, I don't have riftrogue gear. The built in -15% miss chance plus built in dex might just trivialize that problem

[rotund quail]

Realm dorados with dex gear have definitely been giving me problems

Even with riftrogue

You also wouldnt have -15% miss chance because then you'd need sacrifice the rift summoner helm and heretic robe

[tulip shale]

That might just be my next investment.

Would force to pick between dealing with ward or trying to one shot first turn

[umbral pine]

I have more problem dealing with Beo with pet protect/parapet amity than RS Dorados.

[dim nacelle]

So Dorado with Parapet and pumpkinhead, gotcha

[heady owl]

Muhahah, was a long drive today, I can agree though GS pvp in general is really stupid. I will say though the block chance amities with pumpkinhead could occaisionally block and then kill me. I also struggle a lot with Gilga Hercules in Coliseums with the counter attack. BP penetration is really ridiculous though, idk why it’s so high. At least lowering it on bp1/2 would lower gs’ first turn annihilation. I feel like GS in general wasn’t balanced with pvp in mind, hell, sometimes I win offences with gsh missing or having every bp blocked.

Here’s everythinng I’d do to GS/A/H

Lower penetration on BP3 and SIGNIFICANTLY lower it for BP1/2

Give Bloodpact an effect where using it weakens your summons. Not permanently, I would suggest the effect work sort of like Defending where its one turn of a stat change after using the move, maybe cutting their att/mag power in half after using their blood for bp maybe even 75%. Which gives other classes better odds at a ‘second chance’
Lower pact increase effectiveness across the board.

This last suggestion I want to make but its kind of weird and can be a lot of indirect power for pact builds which I feel might help more for farming while still weakening GS pvp. So I can see this being unbalanced but I think its still worth sharing.
Make bloodpact a elementless/Dark Omnimancy spell.
Pros:
This fits thematically.
This allows for more counterbuilding vs bloodpact builds.
This means GS needs to think more about what they’re bringing into pvp matches, do they need to come with a backup plan if they’re bp is too weak? Should they bring an amity that reduces resistences or increases dark/pact damage?
Cons
This could make Bloodpact raiding too strong with the extra multiplier.
Mighty mimic, bane of my regular horde gauntlet raiding experience gets a better matchup vs GS.
But GS pvp isn’t fair.

[stark saffron]

Dark aligned bloodpact would be a class suicide due to how frequent dark immunes/res come up. I like the idea of t. mag/atk downing your summons though

[radiant moth]

Dark blood pact would be badass as fuck

Maybe we can get an alternate damage pact that deals dark damage

Would be cool with elysian balance too

[worn basin]

more than weaken imo it would be better if after blood pact summons had only 10% chance to act

[plush bobcat]

Just delete the entire class

no amity. no pacts. no ward. under leveled gear. no strategy except spawn summons that kill everyone on turn 1 half the time. It’s broken. I’ve put no effort in to a class that defeats top pvp players on full influence areas.

[tulip shale]

Spicy

I wouldn’t be mad

[rotund quail]

lol

I think the class is a breath of fresh air. It plays way differently from all the other classes which makes it fun to play imho

I hope they just resolve the balance issues at some point

[stark saffron]

Nerfs are already listed, blah blah blah, it'll get better for you, blah blah blah

[ocean pumice]

If you oneshot their summons their summons can't fight back

so one counter if you're on offense side is to greatly outascend him

[lone basin]

Yeah. I miss the good old days with you (x

[lone basin]

I heavily agree. For all my complaints, it's such a new playstyle and it's very cool, it just needs to be reworked if it can't be rebalanced. I'm glad about all the positive and negative attention it's gotten as of late.

[tulip shale]

Yes sir. That’s what drew me to it when I first saw it. It’ll be really nice once it’s balanced. I still have faith on the team to get it down.

[clear gale]

As I've said before, I don't have anywhere near the best gear for the GS BP build, but I can one-shot most players in PVP. Anyone with 30k HP or more survive, and anyone with high Dex or high protect chance from their follower usually lives. There shouldn't be one build that keeps territories under your control from everyone. THAT would be game breaking.

[radiant moth]

There isn't a build that is 100% immortal

[dim nacelle]

Yeah, but.. mobile wonder has like ~60 builds. Or was it ~90. Dunno. A metric fuckton

The fact that NONE protect him from GS is the worrying part

[rotund quail]

wait how does he have that many

does that man really have that many loadout slots

[dim nacelle]

He can have up to 10 loadout slots dedicated to pvp builds per class

And per celestial class

So really, he could have up to 180 builds

Once he gets all celestials

[rotund quail]

I guess yeah

but if he has most of his AL in heretic and deity he'd probably mainly use those classes

[worn basin]

still, BP oneshotting him while having 70k+ hp, 100k+ ward and 7k+ res shouldn't be possible

[rotund quail]

I dont think thats possible anymore in the beta

the only thing is that it still has way too high penetration

[worn basin]

you sure?

[rotund quail]

I am not doing 140k damage

still like 100k

[worn basin]

BP2 or BP3?

[rotund quail]

2

only with hydrus btw, base GS damage is like half of that

summon hp doesnt seem to do a lot for blood pact damage anymore

[radiant moth]

In PvP only?

[rotund quail]

yeah

although check my post in summoner beta changes

base GS outdamages GSH if you dont charge the passive in raids lol

[radiant moth]

Yeah that doesn't make sense

[rotund quail]

my pvp setup has 7k magic

[radiant moth]

GSH gets an built in pact buff, pacts should be better by default

[worn basin]

yeah true, I'm doing 110k now instead of 170, fun fact achlys pact away 1 hydra and I do 135k damage lol

[radiant moth]

The scaling is just so it can be inline with the other classes

[worn basin]

it's an m2 multiplier tho

[radiant moth]

Okay but base GS outpacting GSH shouldn't be a thing imo

[rotund quail]

GSH still outpacts in pvp

at least

[worn basin]

true and by a lot, same setup gsh 110k, base gs 68k

[rotund quail]

there is like a limit on how much summon health is used or something

which makes GSH automatically better

[rotund quail]

thats using max magic or something?

or what setup are you using

[worn basin]

a sec

5.6k mag on gsh, 3.3k mag on base gs

[rotund quail]

base GS

without a celestial weapon

damn that does nothing

7.5k magic

it seems like the true BP power is locked behind a celestial class and a celestial weapon now

the discrepancy is a little too big if you ask me

[radiant moth]

I think that's fine given a big problem with the power of GS is that noobs with bad gear got to deal a million dmg

[rotund quail]

most of the noobs wont even be able to deal 20k damage probably lol

so I guess BP requires some form of investment now

[worn basin]

well, if you get your hands on an archistaff with 6 augments you easily get 90k + damage

50k + on base

[rotund quail]

true

I personally wouldnt use that

cant hit shit without an ithra staff

[worn basin]

i miss way less than you think

hydrus got a dex buff

i could swap my legs with riftrogue

and fill it with turul feathers if I need

[rotund quail]

on live I still struggled against deities and rs dorados with 1.5k dex

[worn basin]

thats why I pack double naggs on live

[rotund quail]

the setup I have rn has like 2.5k dex

[worn basin]

I also don't have a decent a ithra staff

[rotund quail]

BP M1 still has to get fixed

using a celestial archistaff with 6 eos arm augments and dealing a ton of damage with fuck all magic shouldnt be a thing imo

the M1 is still more than 3.0 somehow

[worn basin]

I don't think the problem is archi + 6 eos arm but the m1

6 eos arms is the same as 5 eos arms plus nekro

it just gets more boosts with zwei + trev charms

[rotund quail]

yeah but with 3k magic it shouldnt be hard to zero you out

[worn basin]

yeah I don't understand why it doesn't get zeroed when it should

[rotund quail]

the idea of GS zwei with trev charms is kinda funny tho lol

[worn basin]

maybe it would be better having BP1 with m1=2, BP2 with m1=1.5 and BP3 with m1=1

[rotund quail]

hmm, 1.5 is lower than ara vesta's M1

then it might be better to use ara vesta

with 1.5M1 it would be very trivial to zero out BP

considering GS base magic isnt that high

[worn basin]

3, 2.5 and 2

?

[rotund quail]

yeah that'd be fine probably

[worn basin]

similar to how spiked shield works

[rotund quail]

however atm BP is not even capped at 3.0M1

we dont even know how 3.0M1 BP looks like

[worn basin]

how much is the gsh bonus?

[rotund quail]

50% to pacts

[worn basin]

going with the damage formula, even with 7k defense, with my zwei set up, I would be hitting for 89k

with M1=3

[rotund quail]

how does that compare to other classes rn?

is oneshot meta still a thing everywhere?

[worn basin]

considering an M2=6,71

[worn basin]

i would have to put other numbers

that I don't know off the top of my head

[rotund quail]

M1=2.5 would probably be more balanced

then its about the same as ara vesta

[worn basin]

it would deal 70k

[rotund quail]

I gotta say, I dont really like how the balance is rn

base GS does almost no damage with BP but GSH with a celestial weapon does too much

base GS with 7.5k magic and nekro + ithra is only doing 30k

thats crazy

[worn basin]

an heretic with same setup (prom hands instead of eos arms) with ara vesta would deal 47k

also same mag

[rotund quail]

crit amity?

[worn basin]

65k

and post-nerf prom hands

[vague blade]

MW said he doesn't have Fomorian Beo/Summoner gear; said this before but those are the ones that counters summon build hard for one. Against BP, one of the high dex RS celestial + dex gears would do. 60+ build isn't infallible if those are the context, he's just missing some builds

[lone basin]

That's correct, but we shouldn't forget that 99% of the Summoners attacking him are Benefactors, not pact users. Bloodpact is problematic, but in our PvP experiences, people rarely use it.

[tulip shale]

It wasn’t a summon build. I can deal with them decently without fomo gear.

It’s the BP build. But arms of eos, hydrus and dex gear

That was the buff I never understood. BP was broken before and still got like 3 boosts. Only 2 people in all my areas run that build. Which is basically auto lose. What I’m missing against that build is realm dorado. But tbh, I doubt it can slow them down enough.

Wish I had more info on how that dex passive works, but if it’s maxed at 40% that’s nowhere near enough to stop them if they have rift gear

[stark saffron]

I'm in the same boat. The fact that the pact celestial adorns happened as intense as they did was baffling.

[rotund quail]

not sure how the passive works but it seems to be a dodge chance based on your dex only

so speccing into dex as GS wont do jack shit if thats the case

sure GS may have riftrogue gear but you will not be running full riftrogue if you want to do keep doing damage

[ocean pumice]

Do pact adorns still remain at x1.2 multi? If so yeah that should be lowered, that's a clear outlier when other adornments around x1.2 got lowered

[stark saffron]

Iirc arms of eos have not been touched

[rotund quail]

my only fear is pve

I struggle to even do amorri / morri with the 20% pact adorns and without them it'd even be harder

[stark saffron]

I'm confused as to why

[rotund quail]

its crazy that with 20% pact adorns we're still just slower than other classes at raiding with perfect rng (riftlock instacasts)

[rotund quail]

because you die to literally any hit you take

go try it seriously

[stark saffron]

Okay but how does pact modifier change that?

You still die to any hit you apparently take

[rotund quail]

well you need more blood pact hits, therefore you are exposed longer in the battle

besides, you'd need to life pact more which amplifies that

[stark saffron]

So why not run something like shoulders w/ riftguard chest?

[rotund quail]

because BP does fuckall damage when you do that

[stark saffron]

The real problem with blood pact isn't and has never been damage. We've been able to hit caps before and have strong damage output there

[rotund quail]

I ended up running atepomarus chest to survive the setup

[stark saffron]

Nekro staves, celestial adornments, and all of that are recent

[rotund quail]

the problem is survivability

[stark saffron]

So it baffles me how suddenly BP damage flopped

[rotund quail]

well it was horrible first

why do you think I used ultima

[stark saffron]

Because ultima is an easy cop out?

[rotund quail]

if ultima does the same damage as BP, without requiring the setup that takes longer than a minute while also providing way better survivability, I'd be crazy to use blood pact

[stark saffron]

Bro, being a glass cannon means you are glass. You can't have your cake and eat it too

[rotund quail]

so much for being a glass cannon when you're not even that fast because your setup takes an eternity

[stark saffron]

GS's problem, which we seem to be in agreement about, has been turn economy

Not pact mod

But instead of lungs of oceanus taking off, people went to the crit mod of ultima

/shrug

[rotund quail]

yes because its mathematically better

[stark saffron]

Exactly. Ultima is, on live, busted and a cop out

[rotund quail]

the only thing making GS raiding somewhat bearable ngl

[stark saffron]

Hence why I've always called blood/ultima gs a heretic with extra steps

And yeah it is, I wish that would change

But at least beo is seeing a win.

[rotund quail]

GSH summons are also super squishy

aronud 100k hp

[stark saffron]

Good

[rotund quail]

they die extremely quickly in the amorri fight

[stark saffron]

Everyone dies quickly in amorri aside from a select few

What's your point?

[rotund quail]

that's another risk factor in that fight

[stark saffron]

Okay? At least you're not dying. Using riftlock? How about summon turn cost reduction?

You have options bro.

It's like gilgas having issues with ward upkeep

That's the point of a "challenging" fight like amorri

[rotund quail]

believe me, once a summon dies and you're not getting the instacast, you're screwed

because at that point the other summons are low as well

and then it just snowballs

[stark saffron]

That's a bad what if, especially if one of your focuses is life pact. Even in a 3 turn set up for having to renew DC or things like that, you survive the situation

That's not a summon problem at that point, that's literally a skill issue.

[rotund quail]

I do use life pact

but recasting Dc is 3 turns

it's so easy to get oneshot in that fight seriously

[stark saffron]

Yeah because you're running sheer damage

[rotund quail]

any beaststrike, coup de grace or raid ult will just kill you

I was already running anubis for forbid but even then I'd still die in the setup or at some other point in the fight

[rotund quail]

I was running the atepomarus chest with like 1300 def and I still got rekt in the setup lol

[stark saffron]

Maybe consider not twin sticking? Like I'm sure RS swashes reading this are laughing their asses off

[rotund quail]

you could probably get away with not twin-sticking now yeah, because the pact modifiers are so strong

if that is nerfed though, I don't see how that'd work

[stark saffron]

You'd go from damage cap to 5-6mill hits, oh no

[rotund quail]

then you'd still not be tanky enough to survive any of the strong hits but you'd also not be fast enough to kill the raid before something sketchy happens

[rotund quail]

thats still 7 turns of casting BP and more if you have to renew DC

also remember that CDG will bypass summon block chance in the future

[stark saffron]

That it will.

We'll be fine dude

amorri should be the challenge fight, not the basic standard GS should be going for.

[rotund quail]

it should be yes

but not all classes struggle as much as BP GS in that fight

[stark saffron]

Some do though

That's one of the few times I'd argue that's fine

Classes should have their strengths and weaknesses

[rotund quail]

it just feels like there isnt really a decent raiding option. Either it's fast and super risky (blood pact), or it's safe and extremely slow (rhada)

[stark saffron]

And unlike Rhada pact, BP can actually get shit done regardless of these nerfs

You just have to work for it

[rotund quail]

we'd have to see how it plays out in practice then

but blood pact GS is still not a good raiding class

to stay on topic though, I'm not really happy with the state of BP pvp in the beta now

there is a very big discrepancy between hydrus and normal GS, and celestial and non-celestial weapons

[stark saffron]

Normal GS still gets chunky summons

[rotund quail]

This is a 38AL base GS with top gear

[stark saffron]

What about BP 3?

[rotund quail]

This is hydrus with the same gear and a celestial weapon

the discrepancy is insane

[stark saffron]

Agreed. Hydrus needs a pact mod reduction

[rotund quail]

its the celestial weapon thats doing most of the work there

[stark saffron]

You're pulling 6 digits with bp2 though

[rotund quail]

but 30k for base GS is harsh

[stark saffron]

Put that celestial weapon on base gs

And test bp3 too while you're at it.

[rotund quail]

thats base GS with the celestial weapon

BP3 is just double the damage

[stark saffron]

Looks fine to me with no mag buffs

[rotund quail]

yes because the pact multipliers are still super strong atm

I just think the discrepancy between base GS and hydrus is way too high

Im not sure how strong hydrus BP would be with 1.1x eos arms

[stark saffron]

To me that looks like a Hydrus passive issue

And with lowered pen on BP that should be workable. If said reduced pen ever happened

[rotund quail]

hydrus with 1.1x eos arms would do 70k for me

base GS would go to 37k with 1.1x eos arms

@ocean pumice whats your turn 1 damage in the beta now?

I think what's going on is that only a certain amount of hp is used for BP, presumably because more summon health would translate to more penetration. Because of that, the extra health that base GS summons provide is not even used meaning that hydrus just straight up does 50% more pact damage, on top having a higher magic stat

[clear gale]

I don't even think you need realm dorado. That's just one option. What if you use a heretic with reflect, prioritize stats to outlast anyone who isn't GS, and let reflect destroy the GS. Also pick a pet with high block rate.

[heady owl]

Bold of you to assume that they’d live to their turn to cast reflect

Doesn’t quite work when gs can do your entire health bar before you can cast it, you can ask @tulip shale how well it works for him, if I do miss or get blocked though its one of the better defensive options.

[tulip shale]

Yup

[clear gale]

I think I mentioned using a pet with a high block rate, and you should have enough dex to increase your chances of survival.

[clear gale]

I guess I don't care as much about it because my experiences haven't been the same as what you're experiencing. Dieties are hard to kill for every class, and harder to defend against. I think having a class that's more versatile than diety, kills dieties, and are squishy rather than tanky is not that bad. Sure, it makes them annoying for the few players who play the game more than most others, but I'll bet those few who play more than most others were the annoyance to most people before BP came into the PVP arena.

[radiant moth]

They weren't an annoyance since people are fine with losing to someone that has played more than them

But I get your point

[tulip shale]

What does someone’s play time has to do with “annoying” others? Or someone being a Deity main?

[clear gale]

I think it's a terrible thing to not pay attention to. Imagine being a new player and seeing someone control areas around you. They've been playing the game for only two years, but you know it'll take you at least that long to get about where they are, and they'll still be two years ahead of you when they get there. If you don't have a way to equal the playing field after you've spent all that time trying to get close to where they are. It's disheartening and discourages new players from continuing to play if they know they don't have the chance to put up a decent fight at that point.

I do think something should change or be added so that kingdom wars don't end up as both sides with BP summoners, or 50% summoners and 50% one class that can counter them. It's hard to keep balance in a constantly changing multiplayer game like Orna. I have a lot of respect and admiration for what they've already accomplished, and I knew adding a completely new class was going to cause an upset. I thought summoners were going to be the new meta for everything, but they're too squishy and slow/inconsistent at dealing damage to be the best at everything, but they're good for this. So while it upsets a few, I'll bet it gives 4x more people hope than the amount of people it discourages. Taking territories and having them taken from you is a fun part of the game, with I particularly enjoy. When I take a territory and I see it taken back the same day it's fun. I have something to do the next day. It sucks when people give up and don't take it back from me.

[lone basin]

There's diminishing returns with time spent. In two years, you can reach 250. In two more years, you'll just have better gear. At that point, you can take land from the one who is still two years ahead of you, it's just going to be easier for them to get it back. It's not like they're still just as out-of-your-league as they were when you start the game.

[tulip shale]

Imagine a game that starts new players equal to top players so they don’t quit. 😂

[clear gale]

With all of the new events, orns to spend on ascension levels and pets, and with the introduction of towers (I'm sure there will be something else better than towers in a year or two) I highly doubt the gap between players you're thinking of will be as small as you think it will be, but I respect your view

[clear gale]

Imagine not trolling

[radiant moth]

Well with the nature of territory control and how it's balanced you can't really appeal to everyone

Someone will always complain

[subtle edge]

Ghosting is the intended way for weak players to take territory from strong players.
Insanely OP pvp offense with relatively tiny effort is not intended.

To a lesser extent, DoT/statuses is also a lever for weak players to win the occasional fight. But that isn't fast.

[rotund quail]

It seems like OP pvp offense with little effort will change though. In the beta GS pvp offense is only OP when you have a celestial weapon and GS hydrus, which is.. better I guess than the current situation lol. This was with non celestial gear on 38 AL base gs, about 7k magic.

[subtle edge]

seems like a change in the right direction, yeah.

[rotund quail]

But then gsh with celestial weapon is like this

[clear gale]

Again, I've been playing for almost 3 years and I don't have the best gear for BP. While dual wielding Nekro staffs, switched to sequencer spec, I've got Arisen rift summoner helm and boots, legendary Arisen rings, and an Ornate heretics robe I lack the gear to be a god. My magic is only at 4k, and I can one-hit most players and classes, but that's only when I land the hit. I miss a lot and get blocked a lot.

The fact that you guys, the people who probably have the most hours in the game, found this build and are able to make it work as intended 95% of the time is a reflection on how much time you've put into the game. New players are likely going to suck with it still because there's too much RNG, or because they won't hit high enough. I'm only hitting for 26k (sometimes doubled by sequencer), but I'm blocked or I miss 50% of the time. It's only as strong as the gear of the player, and time is a huge factor in that aspect.

[umbral pine]

Not exactly. Once the player have access to GSH & a Celestial weapon full of Eos arms, your damage output will increase significantly. For the miss rate, it can be fixed with gears with high Dex. Iirc You don't even need an ornate for any of the good dex gear as they don't scale with quality. Same apply to Turul feathers.

[clear gale]

Exactly. Not. New. Players.

[worn basin]

with enough patience anyone can do towers and make a celestial weapon, especially new players, you can even just hoard shards during t9 and then use them at t10 and get a weapon that surpasses amorri gear

also, for the miss rate, you can use riftrogue gear and you don't even need to upgrade them to get the effect

[umbral pine]

Towers are not gated. Dex gears are also available from monsters like Succubus etc. So how new players cannot obtain those gears?

Easily obtainable dex gears:
Head: Kelpie - Phantom Blinders
Chest: Fjalar/Succubus - Fjalar Mantle/Succubus Mantle
Legs: Lyonesse Assassin - Lyonesse Boots

and when the event bosses like Hel or Surtr is back. Arisen Hel's Garb, Arisen Hel's boots & Arisen Surtr's boots.

Arisen Ithra's Staff also give dex and again, not affect by the quality.

[radiant moth]

Not new players sure, but players with significantly lower playtime for sure

It's just a disproportionate power level of playtime/PvP strength

[plush bobcat]

wasting time with pacts. Gear for summon stat boosts and let them do the work.

[tulip shale]

@rotund quail well your dorado counter is absolute dog$&@!

Lol. Doesn’t even tickle

[stark saffron]

Wat

[rotund quail]

Tf

I did actually get destroyed by some dorados believe it or not

[stark saffron]

Yeah cuz their passive procs scale off of # of opposing entities

RS 100% counters us now

[rotund quail]

but even in the current version I got smacked by some dorados

just kept missing even with riftrogue

and they'll get avidity on top of that

it has to be the best counter against GS

[tulip shale]

Nah. It was really bad. Double parapet, pumpkin. Was still losing every single one. I think the problem was also my offensive on that build. Not enough attack.

I’ll just use my heretic. It’s still better.

Just sad cause I wanted Gilga ursa and chose dorito. 😆 Yo fault

[rotund quail]

If you're using a full ward build I'm not surprised at all

The only thing making dorado good against gs is the dex passive

[tulip shale]

No. It was full dex passive. Instant attack build. Immunities

But my heretic can zero the summons. That’s the difference

Second chance is really good too

Tbh I expected it to do much better. I’ll still look into the build. But it was solid enough, except for the attack stat maybe

[plush bobcat]

0 them you say 🤔

[rotund quail]

So you had 3000 dex?

[umbral pine]

How do you even push to 3k dex? The highest I can push to is 2.7k as RS Dorado and I'm still getting hit pretty often.

[tulip shale]

Correct. 3.1

[tulip shale]

Yeah. I still get hit fairly easy. Did quite a bit of practice against kingdom members. Even heretics were getting through fairly easy

[tulip shale]

Hydrus summons are much much weaker

Well. I suppose. I said that like it’s a fact. I don’t have the class yet

[rotund quail]

I thought 3k dex would make it so that the enemy misses 40% of the time

regardless of their own dex

but not sure

[plush bobcat]

Ah got ya. I heard a certain someone is back in Texas.

[tulip shale]

It’s 20 I need to get on🥲😂

[lone basin]

Or you could just say goodbye to 20

[sterile gate]

That is 100% not true

At 14k base res and defense they still get through

[stark saffron]

You wearing some of the fomorian set that reduces summon damage? And are you running Golem's/DC?

[sterile gate]

That is also with DC and full defense buffed plus amities

[stark saffron]

Which amities?

[sterile gate]

For great hydra reduces damage from dragons and earth damage reduction. And yes DC golems and all the buffs in the game don't stop summons.

The fomorian armor that was impossible to get for an event that we won't see for another year? Should not be the only way to survive more than 1 round to summons

Player defensive stats have no impact on summons damage, this has been documented by asc 100+ players

[rotund quail]

its not even that hard to zero out hydra from my experience

[stark saffron]

I guess I fight the best deities in the game then.

That's a GSA Benefactor with around 40% summon stats from gear

AL 25

Pretty sure that's around the average of most Summon builds in PvP

[rotund quail]

on the offense side they really dont even seem that good

maybe if you go full summon stat

[slender mulch]

the dude has 16 AL over u and probably bis defense gear

also redlined

[stark saffron]

I mean if Nez here has 13-14k base defenses from their gear

Pretty sure that's running BiS gear

[sterile gate]

It's not me it's an asc 100+ player that does, and still goes through defense

I've seen it in testing with them

[stark saffron]

I'd also would love to see the math/investigation on this. Not saying I doubt you but first time I've heard about that

[ocean pumice]

going through defense isn't a gs specific issue tbh

I can one turn themjolnir, should beo be nerfed?

[stark saffron]

I mean I would figure the real issue would be BP literally ignoring every bit of defense ever

[slender mulch]

it's just meta rn. too many high pen spels and crazy adorns from towers

[sterile gate]

Not many players are at that level, so not many people can comment on it. If fomorian gear is the only way to 0 out summons then it's needs to not be event locked

[slender mulch]

yucky towers, worst NF update ever

[stark saffron]

That guy isn't wearing fomorian gear iirc

But he doesn't share builds so I can't confirm

[rotund quail]

summons definitely wouldnt get through mjolnir

I faced untold with summons and couldnt scratch him

[stark saffron]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sterile gate]

@jagged plank that you in the video?

All I know is that in extensive testing on our end, great hydra has gotten through everything

[stark saffron]

I'm pretty surprised at that considering great hydra is running multi-element 1 which has the penetration of a wet noodle iirc

[rotund quail]

I dont believe that tbh

[sterile gate]

I'll see if I can find the clip from our testing

Should have gear and stats included

[subtle edge]

There's a few players that have territory defenses that stop my summons. Maybe not zero, but reducing them to below 10k damage a turn which might as well be zero with ward regen and etc. nowadays.

Prior to benefactor, I'd've said that summons themselves are not the problem at all and it's just BP.
Now with easy access to +130 stats, the summons themselves can be very strong turn1 but don't scale.

Mostly I have questions about benefactor. I'm not against summon stats being lower in pvp if it comes to that.

Given that turn1 is somewhat the goal, maybe just the existing beta changes to make the summoner himself easier to kill will be sufficient. Still with massive damage summons, but that's his turn1 offense.

[gray prism]

With ward turns

Vs my Al 40 gs with 0 celestial gear

Don't even need to do anything

You need starting ward turns, like 300k ward, and to not miss

No time to buff

You're dead

[rotund quail]

Youre also using a ton of summon stat gear

[gray prism]

Not even maxed

It still goes through 13k stats that's my point

Anyone who still denies it's over powered after seeing that needs a reality check lol

[subtle edge]

overpowered compared to...?

Because BP is way way more than that.
Turn1 AV crit, turn1 SS setups, turn1 swash HS3 crit, etc. are way more than that.

[rotund quail]

I get that, but summons arent the only thing that penetrates

Like verse, av and bp exist

[subtle edge]

In a 1shot pvp world, the problem is just that you can't oneshot the summoner while they're oneshotting you.

Not that I like 1shot pvp world, but it's the one that we live in.

[sterile gate]

GS also has a high chance to just block the attack, requiring underpowered skills or 3 turn skills to get around, that plus not being able to defend against the summons makes for a severe imbalance

[rotund quail]

If you miss on a beo with verse on defense you'd also be toast. It just doesnt happen as often as summon protect

[subtle edge]

so like I said, it's the defense side that is really the problem.
hence why the beta reduces protect% by a lot and adds more ways to get around the protect%.

[sterile gate]

Its also the lack of a way to defend to get around defenses

It's both things together

[subtle edge]

there isn't supposed to be a way to defend in 1shot world. 🤷‍♂️ I don't like it but that's how it is.

[gray prism]

My cactus does 0 vs those stats btw thought I'd add that

[subtle edge]

the definition of 1shot pvp is... defense sucks.

[sterile gate]

So why does gs get to but nobody else?

[rotund quail]

Doesnt cactus have shit m1 tho

[subtle edge]

fuck if I know, ask NF

maybe beo should also be able to get 80% protect, and maybe the second chance classes should all have guaranteed second chance.

also: please check out the beta 🙏

[rotund quail]

I mean thats literally getting nerfed

[sterile gate]

I have, same problem

[sterile gate]

I wasn't able to tell in testing

[rotund quail]

25% block chance at base

Currently it's 50%

[sterile gate]

I get that, I'm saying that it doesn't feel like it. Then add the 100k+ ward gsa can get and it's just a bad time

[rotund quail]

If you want the max block chance in the beta you at least need to sacrifice some ward

I cant reach 100k anymore

[gray prism]

I did a lot of testing in the beta with pets, the characters in the beta are mostly crap and I still got wrecked vs summoners I don't think anything else killed me

It's barely different

[slender mulch]

NF's beta is pretty much a farce to get players to shut up

[tulip shale]

Agree with summons having way too much penetration.

Pretty sure only reason I can zero some summons is because I’m leaning heavy on the influence, area amities and warden. My normal build wouldn’t have a chance to stop summons

But it prolly takes my AI 5 turns to hit. Or more. While summons only give you 1 turn to survive. 💀

But yeah. Deny deny deny. 👀 Nothing to see here.

[subtle edge]

deny what?

[tulip shale]

Friendly jab at Pie 😆

I honestly don’t get it though. How is the experience some people go through so different to others

Pretty sure nobody on both sides is lying. I know for sure I can’t get them zeroed. They hit hard as hell on turn 1. And basically everyone I talk to goes through the same. Then here it’s the opposite.

[gray prism]

Ive never zerod a summon unless it's a 0 al one and I use phoenix

[tulip shale]

Hahaha. Basically, yeah. Lmfao

[gray prism]

I don't get it lol

[subtle edge]

I don't think I've ever been truly zeroed, but functionally, yeah might as well be zero.

There's a few higher ascension warden setups where they survive turn1 (with autoward), golems+birdDC, and then they're good.
Have to kill with BP or player damage high-M1 skills since the summons can't do anything (can't change their skills, can't raise their stats, etc.)

[tulip shale]

Your profile pic is funny as hell too every time you send a message

[gray prism]

Lmao

That's me every time a level 228 gs takes an area off me

[tulip shale]

Yeah. But that’s just areas. That’s what I mean. It’s a different thing when you can “technically” add 40 ascension leves instantly.

How about outside areas? Do you get zeroed? 👀

[subtle edge]

But also: turn1 pvp is supposed to be a thing. Why shouldn't summoner kill the opponent on turn1 when they fully spec into offense?
The real problem is being able to turn1 them in return.

My beoH certainly kills everything turn1 when he specs into offense, with equivalent gear rarity and ascension. 🤷‍♂️ And gets turn1'd, in return.

[subtle edge]

not really

[gray prism]

Its quite different imo

[tulip shale]

Yeah. That’s much more fair. Turn 1 build, if you miss or second chance procs, then it’s your turn to almost die. GS is much more difficult to 1 shot.

I hate beo hydrus and the offense it has. But it’s much more fair

[subtle edge]

beoh doesn't even get its 1.2x stat passive in pvp 😔

[raw knot]

wait what ? why ?

[ocean pumice]

Cant remember why exactly, but none of the pre t10 stat passives do

[plush bobcat]

Indeed

[clear gale]

Wait, are we finally agreeing that someone should be able to kill with BS in the first turn?

[radiant moth]

We don't agree it's a good thing, but the oneshot meta very much so is a thing and it sucks

[long frigate]

Pvp sucks so much right now doesn't look like balance is actually trying to fix that just shut people up.

[stark saffron]

One shot meta been a problem before GS. Eventually they'll fix it

[slender mulch]

yeah the balance patch doesnt solve anything rn

gonna be a while before summoner pvp gets an actual change

[rotund quail]

well, it does raise the bar for BP builds a bit

if you dont have a celestial weapon and hydrus, your damage is going to be absolute shit

with nekro + ithra on base GS I was doing like 35k

with celestial + ithra on base Gs it was like 48k

only on hydrus + celestial was it 100k

[clear gale]

Why is one shot meta a problem? There are classes that specialize in defense where the longer the fight goes on the stronger they get. Why shouldn't the opposite be true for those who are glass cannons when they put in just as much time and effort to make their build work?

[slender mulch]

i think the problem now is that players who do not have significant investment in "glass cannon" builds are able to shred through most defense builds

there are fresh t10 and some t9 players that are able to easily take down my AL 46 deity defense builds

it's product of balancing issues which existed prior to towers and was only exacerbated by all the celestial augments and skills

[rain gust]

The biggest issue with BP is its ability to bypass defenses.

And the second strange issue is that this situation has persisted for so long without being improved.

[stark saffron]

Pretty sure we've already had a looooooooong talk about this already.

[clear gale]

I think it's still going

[slender mulch]

its not just that. GS strong point is it negates 2nd chance in PVP

[slender mulch]

eh NF is small studio. Takes time. Like when spiked shield used to crit, it took a while to get that nerfed too.

that being said, it is funny how despite the community outcry, NF has done the opposite by adding overpowered new summons and an entire summoner tailored specialization class, not to mention 30% summon boost amities

🤷🏽‍♂️ nothing we can do. even post patch i don't think much will change

[rain gust]

Yes... as time goes on, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to find reasons to convince myself to keep hoping.😢

Even some friends who left because of this, it's hard for me to convince them to come back and play together again.

[slender mulch]

the new content adventurer's guild might be interesting. even if the balance sucks, new content is always neat

may be something that'll convince ppl to play

[radiant moth]

Bro I get the summoner hate from an objective stand point but the 30% summon boost amity is sooooo bad it's laughable

Powercreep is real with amities considering stuff like 50% duration and 40% crit dmg

The 30% additive summon stats are close to useless

[rain gust]

I hope so too. I really miss the times when a group of friends would play and chat together all day long.😆

[radiant moth]

Also the summon spec had to happen cause we had no aoe, and now that it's added I'd say it added more issues than it solved because it made summon based builds way easier since it gives a really fat stat boost and kind of invalidates summon boosting gear(since the additive benefactor boost is so huge is effectively makes the gear boosts useless) and the jinn aoe we got isn't even close to the power stuff like sweep and mage dance have

[radiant moth]

I think the real fun in orna is the community, I could honestly stick to this game even if it didn't get any new updates for a year

[rain gust]

It could be because GS themselves are already very powerful, so the enhancements may not be as noticeable to them.?🤪

[radiant moth]

Like, we didn't even have multiplayer like we do now a couple years back

[radiant moth]

No the enchancement is so powerful that it makes any gear on top of the base GS and benefactor buff literally useless

It's dumb, it just makes undergeared people deal insane damage and be immortal

And the properly geared people don't deal that much damage

[slender mulch]

hmm ive seen benefactor builds solo clear t10 horde easily. 150% summon boost isn't a joke

[radiant moth]

Yeah it's absurd

[rain gust]

I agree. In the past, in my region, there were numerous messages flowing every day, and it was very lively.

[radiant moth]

The issue is low tier summoners clear horde with no issue, but late game GS clear it way slower than any other late game class

[rain gust]

Oh... I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. English is not my native language, so I rely heavily on translation.

[radiant moth]

Which is funny cause even before the addition of benefactor summoner was so op at the start of t10 but fell off

So they kind of just doubled down on that

[slender mulch]

my AL5 GS used to perform better than my AL 20 something deity with full orn gear luls

[radiant moth]

On horde?

[slender mulch]

anyways, i actually dont mind GS PVE that much. i only care about PVP in this thread

[radiant moth]

No way lmao I clear horde better on my 0al deity than I do on my 15al gs

Mage dance right?

[slender mulch]

yeah with orn gear

[radiant moth]

Ah yeah

Well that's understandable but the issue is with every class you can go non orn gear and go faster

With summoner you cant

What you saw was close to peak summoner aoe dmg

[radiant moth]

I'm curious how the community reacts to the current balance changes when they hit live

[slender mulch]

GS PVE another topic. not a problem for me since i've also abused it for orn gains

[radiant moth]

If odie actually caps the M1 of blood pact to 3(it's bugged rn and is still infinite in the beta)

That might stop the high Al deities from getting destroyed

[slender mulch]

honestly if BP pen and batallions are properly addressed, that'll quell 90% of the community outcry

i believe batallions are getting halfed which is a step in the right direction

[radiant moth]

Yeah they are

Having a celestial weapon with full protect and a rift chest can still get the protection chance really really high

And one of the issues on the defense against summoner it seems is that the Auriga+benefactor buffed summons have insane M1 as well

[slender mulch]

the other day my AL 46 deity died in kingdom wars against a lvl 240ish GS bc it got protected for like 10 hits

i was kinda bummed out by the protect chance. no motivation to do boring towers content and farm Ara vesta

[radiant moth]

Yeah honestly towers are really boring to do lmao

I kinda wish they were just a bunch of clicks and fight without the movement

[slender mulch]

the walking sucks

[radiant moth]

Yeah it feels cursed

I have no clue what aetheric players are going through

Maybe if they didn't make it grid based and you could walk in a straight line and make it a bit faster it would be more intuitive

[slender mulch]

that's a good suggestion

[rotund quail]

Welp M1 is not infinite anymore

[worn basin]

Basically BP problem solved than

[rotund quail]

eos arms are not working anymore in pve btw

@slim ibex

[slim ibex]

No more infinite m1

[worn basin]

So the reason why BP is fine is because the augment doesn't work?

[rotund quail]

no nvm, found the issue already

I readorned my celestial weapon but it didnt update yet when testing against training cactus

had to remove and readd it to my loadout to see the difference

[plush bobcat]

can still 1 turn everyone with just summon damage

[stark saffron]

A lot of people can one turn everyone with x

[plush bobcat]

yea. no doubt. My point is summons need to be nerfed. GS is orna easy mode with no effort having to be out in to a build for it.

[stark saffron]

You want summons to be nerfed because they can one shot everyone else because the summoner picked all the options to buff their summons damage like other people pick all the options to buff their own damage?

Ultima, Ara Vesta, Spiked Shield, etc?

[plush bobcat]

I have one piece of godforged gear for GS Everything is else level 6 and lower. I don’t use pacts besides rhada pact 2 for raids

[stark saffron]

Heck pop a crit build with fey element 5 and I'm sure you'll drop some mofos with a promo hand celestial weapon or less

[plush bobcat]

I don’t use buffs for GS pvp. I don’t even use ward

[stark saffron]

And neither do they

[rotund quail]

Then your opponents must be pretty bad lol

[stark saffron]

The point of a one shot build is first turn kill

GS is not the only one to do it

And wasn't the first

[plush bobcat]

I’m one shotting Mobile Wonder bro on full influence areas

[rotund quail]

Record it

[plush bobcat]

Mobile can tell you himself. I’m not here to brag about it.

[rotund quail]

I just dont believe it

what al are you?

[plush bobcat]

Alrighty. 🤷‍♂️

17 currently. I was doing it at 0 AL

[stark saffron]

And this was with blood pact or summon damage?

Just makin' sure

[plush bobcat]

Solely summon damage

[stark saffron]

Which summons?

[plush bobcat]

Great hydra? Buggane? Arcane troll? Chimera? Lots have one shot potential

[stark saffron]

Why change up your strat if you have your one shot build

[plush bobcat]

Depending upon what build you’re fighting.

[stark saffron]

Which two summons do you primary against mobile wonder?

[plush bobcat]

There’s no one strat against Mobile. He changes builds constantly while you’re hitting him.

[rotund quail]

my personal experience with 40+ al and a max summon stat build is that they just cant kill people consistently in 1 turn, especially not if its someone with a good build, presumably like MW has

BP is just way better at killing turn 1

[stark saffron]

Look dude, I'm not trying to be rude here but you're being more slippery with your answers than soap in a bad situation. I can't agree or disagree with you, or see where you're coming from, if you ain't able to tell us where you're coming from

[tulip shale]

I’m not sure about the one shot. But he’s definitely one of the people that pisses me off the most. Him changing summons is exactly what I thought he was doing.

[stark saffron]

Because there are some cases where I would agree with you. Summon stats need nerfing, but it's generally been their HP and defenses more than their damage

[tulip shale]

He’s got a good pvp mind, I’ll admit.

[stark saffron]

Got'cha

[rotund quail]

the fact that he says chimera and troll are good for pvp one turn potential really makes me doubt him

chimera spams miasma and troll has arcane strikes which is multi turn and has bad m1

[tulip shale]

For example. Most players just use GS to try to breeze through things, but they don’t actually know how to play. I know this man learns how to maximize his build even if it’s dog$&@#

[stark saffron]

Chimera has access to high pen elemental. But Arcane Strikes is a 2 turner and we're talking first turn one shot builds

[tulip shale]

Lol. I’ve had trolls hit me hard

[stark saffron]

Which mean Arcanus 2 is likely the slap down Mobile's running into unless Mobile ain't running ward first turns

[rotund quail]

chimera's mag stat is not all that great, or at least it doesnt do as much damage as other summons can

[stark saffron]

Which would be surprising

[rotund quail]

trolls hit very hard yes

if they use arcana 2 at least

[stark saffron]

That's not the point though pie, crank out enough % and you would need stuff like the fomor set to reduce summon damage

(which honestly I'm surprised isn't more popular.)

[rotund quail]

imo, summons should still be viable in pvp if you have a good build. The main problem imo is that right now they are very strong with little investment

but personally I would never use a summon build for pvp when BP exists

[stark saffron]

The main problem is battalions

I can accept glass cannon summon damage.

But we shouldn't be having our cake and eating it too

[plush bobcat]

That’s my point. I’ve barely upgraded any gear. Some of my gear isn’t even adorned.

[ocean pumice]

the early t10 beo problem, except summons base power is enough to threaten long into t10 and even t11

[rotund quail]

idk but I feel like its definitely possible to fend off summons unlike bp

in territory control I'd consider that a loss even if I somehow won, why waste time on that

[tulip shale]

Only attack. 😆 That’s trolling.

[rotund quail]

wym

[tulip shale]

Your summoner. Only attack button. Lol. But I know why you did it

[rotund quail]

wouldnt have made a difference

my BP zeroes out because auriga+bene

[tulip shale]

Yeah. I know

[rotund quail]

thats just max summon stats

[stark saffron]

gawd damn look at them HPs

[tulip shale]

That’s intimidating

🤢nerf please😂

[stark saffron]

lmao

"I'm a summoner with 90% battalions with 5 400k+ HP summons. Enjoy the raid battle."

[rotund quail]

thats not max protect

I cant get that much stats on them if I spec into protect. Just wanted to see the max power of summons

[slim ibex]

Chained shield

[rotund quail]

yeah isnt hard to kill me

[slim ibex]

Can ur dumb summons deal dmg to me at least

[rotund quail]

no

[slim ibex]

Lel

[tulip shale]

Abyss

[slim ibex]

Want to try?

[tulip shale]

You told me the other day you wanted to pvp?

[slim ibex]

Yeah I've asked

[rotund quail]

if they zero out on a player with less al than you why would they not zero out on you

[tulip shale]

Why? 😅😂

[slim ibex]

Why not

[tulip shale]

Oh. Thought you wanted to try something specific out

[slim ibex]

Na not rly

Only a fight

[tulip shale]

Hmmm

https://tenor.com/view/docholiday-tomb-stone-wink-winking-serious-gif-12409187

[slim ibex]

Now?

[tulip shale]

Let’s go

[slim ibex]

Come private

[tulip shale]

And they say defense is gonna zero all offense. 😂😂 PLEASE

[subtle edge]

who's "they"?

[tulip shale]

The “ones” that say defense is too overpowered and offenses is good as is

Abyss and me were throwing haymakers😂😂

I really hope once this patch is done, everything goes back to being decent. Fingers crossed

[slim ibex]

Pew pew

[rotund quail]

abyss knows GS sucks in the beta

[slim ibex]

You suck

What's about a stronger GS like you always saying

[rotund quail]

ask fux

[rich token]

Main problem is BP and summon damage turn one when it comes to territories. Battalions is the least problematic thing when there is av2 and mages dance/pavane to work around battalion block

[gray prism]

Mcskye took areas off me, he's level 226, I have 13k res and defense, and resist elements lol they still go through my stats. No clue what youre even running to get 0d but you can destroy people with summons with minimal effort. Seriously, deliberately showing weak ass builds to avoid nerfs is getting old

Everyone's getting destroyed by summoners constantly

That's why everyone's hating and is getting so frustrated

[rich token]

^^ this. There is a local t9 summoner that can even take me out quick. It's ridiculous

[gray prism]

Bro I did 15k res and dc, and my alt still murders me instantly without any celestial items

They're so insanely overpowered

I dont even have to go max summon stats. They just smash me

Friends of mine lose areas to t9 summoners, and can't even beat fresh gs even with good ascension

[rich token]

I need to work on some more gear to get to 15k lol, but this doesn't even stop a t9 when I'm full influence

[gray prism]

No point trying for 15k, if they get through that with DC and resistances on top theres something seriously wrong

But anyone that spends more than 5 mins in the arena knows this

Anyone defending summons in the arena wants to keep on being overpowered and unbalanced for personal gain

If gs wasn't a way to get easy wins you wouldn't vs entire kingdoms of them

[subtle edge]

I feel the same way about Ashen Phoenix 🤷‍♂️ Broken stuff is the mainstay of pvp where objectivity matters.
I don't particularly blame people for running GS either on pvp offense or defense; it's up to NF to change things.

@rich token idk man, taking back some of the territory you took from me with an asc ~60 gs with maxed gear wasn't "easy" 😛
If you got golems + DC off it'd effectively zero me out.

granted I can/did just swap over to BP, but summon-damage-wise, you weren't completely free. fights that took 10+ turns w/o BP is a potent territory defense.

[rich token]

It's interesting your summons weren't one turning me lol. They were shredding me on many territories I took if I didn't chain you in the first few turns. A lot of the time I relied on second chance. I'm not sure I used my tank build against you given your AL's. I knew I wouldn't stand a chance and had/have no intention of keeping those 😂. But I do like to put up a fight. GS just took that aspect away majorly when anyone without much time put in can clear you so easily

Maybe I didn't get all of the notifications, but it didn't seem like you were having trouble on me at all with the time stamps haha

[subtle edge]

My last comments from like two weeks ago on this topic are still the same:

Prior to benefactor, I'd've said that summons themselves are not the problem at all and it's just BP.
Now with easy access to +130 stats, the summons themselves can be very strong turn1 but don't scale.

Mostly I have questions about benefactor. I'm not against summon stats being lower in pvp if it comes to that.

[rich token]

In not mad by your GS by any means. You have a ton of AL invested so I expect you to be very strong. It's the no time invested summoners that get to me