Phoenix Followers and the problem of follower choice

[slim basalt]

This follower is seen absolutely everywhere in the endgame.

Starting from the T8 phoenix and then all the way through T11 and beyond with ashen phoenix, these followers are used in exceeding quantity. Every leaderboard and kingdom war screen is filled to the brim with the phoenixes.

In addition to being the most potent offensive utility follower -- 2x damage whereas others like Apollyon Apprentice and Chimera boast 1.5x -- it's also an extremely potent defensive follower -- 2x def/res(!), ward turn upkeep(!), and a protect chance(!). For a cherry on top, its skills are relatively high damage and high piercing (seen in Lusus3), and the burns/blights can help with second chance enemies.

Something has to give here. It was potent in the past, but with the addition of Blackened Eyes of Kerberos, its one weakness in having a lowish action rate was effectively removed. Now with +smartAI access, it doesn't need much action rate at all to turn into a Deific Channel machine.

[balmy heart]

Give chimera a chance to apply berserk 3

Everything is solved

People will start using it

[slim basalt]

It feels like there should be several ways to start chipping away its power while opening up room for other followers to begin to compete.

1. Followers are not beholden to the normal set of skills. The Phoenixes could still have Deific Channel of sorts, rebranded to a version that doesn't do as much. Their DC could still give t.all^^^, but perhaps wouldn't give ward turns to remove that powerful advantage, or could be bundled with a downside such as self-burn or self-stun.

2. The protect% chance could be removed. It doesn't need it at all and is very powerful even without it.

3. The attacks could be lessened or removed. If it's meant to be a utility follower, it could have zero attacks and would still be used.

4. There could be an internal cooldown imposed on its DC. This could be worked around with extreme investment into +status duration (heretic corv, amities, any other gear effects), but otherwise the expectation is that the DC won't be active with 100% uptime.

Ultimately, a utility follower that doubles player damage is itself a lot, for the slot.

If the expectation is that the follower doubles player output, then many other followers need drastic improvements to approach something near doubling player output.

[balmy heart]

1. Self burn or self stun is anti- redline classes or anti RS, so no.
2. I agree with removing protect chance.
3. I can agree with this too.
4. Imposing a cooldown on a skill is a very negative step for the game. I don't agree with this. If you wish to debuff something then there should be other methods.

[slim basalt]

You don't need to respond to every potential implementation. 😅
But if you want, there are others...

5. The t.all^^^ could be bundled with t.all-. In this case, you would want to invest in negative status duration reduction alongside positive status duration increases.

6. The t.all^^^ could be t.all^ and the follower would still be used because of its defensive properties. DC is attainable with deity non-celestial and t.all^ would stack with that.

7. The "DC" skill could be a "Phoenix rebirth" which heals the player. This would force the AI to only start considering the use of the skill when the player is not on full-hp.

[balmy heart]

5. No
6. Just get askr garb for that.
7. Not good for redline classes once again

[slim basalt]

It would be very helpful for NF to give a statement or direction here. If they're fine with the dominance of the follower, then there's literally nothing to change. There was already one follower rework and Phoenix was passed over -- implying that perhaps they think it's not a problem at all.

Perhaps other followers might get buffs here and there, but it's hard to imagine anything directly competing with the laundry list of upsides that the bird has.

On a meta-level, it would not hurt to reduce player power globally by reducing the power of this one follower.

[balmy heart]

We need others followers rework and not a remove everything from one follower.

[slim basalt]

I disagree.

Put simply -- how much should one follower do? How much power should players expect to gain from that slot?

[balmy heart]

Again, it's not that Phoenix is great but no other follower comes close to it.

[cunning goblet]

i don't get why other classes are able to use protect chance from pets, i personally feel like it should be pet class exclusive

[slim basalt]

Clearly phoenix is doing more than the rest, and clearly it's doubling player damage output... and solving ward turns... and making players take very little damage with doubled def/res and protect%.

And you think that other followers will compete with that with minor buffs? If Chimera is 2x damage but not also defensive, then it wouldn't get used. If a defensive follower is 2x defenses but not also damage, then it wouldn't get used.

Or are you saying that Chimera should be like 2.5x player damage and not have the defensive benefits of the bird?

I disagree that followers, as a slot, should be doing that much especially with small amounts of investment. I don't think they should be doing as much as they're doing right now.

[cunning goblet]

especially when non pet classes already have 2nd chance

[devout sundial]

It's called meta

[soft maple]

Fwiw, I do agree that DC is strong. Puts it comfortably in the camp of very strong for offence and defence. Tough to beat

[balmy heart]

I don't completely agree with this, but phoenix shouldn't have it.

[soft maple]

We've been toying with some cool concepts of Titan followers that could be pretty competitive 👀

[slim basalt]

Yeah, the meta of players making obvious choices -- and picking the thing that is clearly outperforming the rest. 😛

[devout sundial]

That's the point

[balmy heart]

Yeah, that's why remove Protect chance, and decrease it's attack and magic

[balmy heart]

Not everyone has a second chance

[slim basalt]

Yeah, that's my point.

See OP 🙂

[devout sundial]

Chicken looks good is good and it's good

[balmy heart]

So you need to consider "all" the classes

[devout sundial]

For me chicken is balanced like fr

But DC cast is too low

[balmy heart]

Every class, has strong M1 skills, and the only way for RS to get that damage is by increasing it's attack.

[slim basalt]

It's not "balanced" with other follower choices. You just mean that you like that level of follower power, which is fine, but is a different thing. 😛

[devout sundial]

I'm joking, i was trying to use other pet's like gorynych etc but Chicken is way too good

[slim basalt]

I'm mildly terrified of what new content will be added that makes the bird (as it is now) not the best choice.

[warped kayak]

@slim basalt I'd like if you could, when making change suggestions, consider classes that would be compleatly screwed over by them.
A realm, that already has its accessory slots locked for status protection, would simply not be able to deal with yet another effect, which would complealty eliminate the use of the bird

[slim basalt]

@warped kayak I mean, I'm not "not considering" the effect on other classes.

The implementations that I listed are first and foremost example implementations -- launching points for what could be done. I'm aware of the fact that a self-burn would hurt low-hp classes, especially since I play and have played beowulf for years. 😅

[warped kayak]

On another note having a follower give you a debuff is also off the table as it makes no sense at all.

[slim basalt]

Are you aware that Crimson Gazer exists? Its whole thing is "big upside, bundled with a downside"

[warped kayak]

Beowulf isn't on 1 hp 99% of the time tho, where 1 slip up can kill him, you've got wiggle room

[azure granite]

ahem CG AHEM

[cunning goblet]

we've been receiving CG debuffs for 3yrs+ already

or 4?

[warped kayak]

And it's used almost nowhere but t9 bahamut

As there's simply better options for t10

[azure granite]

Which is more use than most pets get, mind you.

[slim basalt]

On every piece of gear there is orange text -- "this will not prevent statuses from your followers".

It shouldn't be off-limits design space.

[cunning goblet]

there's also the mimics with their own debuffs

[azure granite]

True

used

[soft maple]

Discussion is purely an opportunity to talk through ideas and topics. Bringing alternate viewpoints is fine and healthy for sure 🙂

I like lateral thinking myself, it's interesting!

[slim basalt]

Note how often new powerful upside effects have been bundled with downsides within them, just to get around the fact that player gear does prevent self-downsides.

Gunnr/Snotra def/res reductions can't be avoided.
Asteria def/res reductions can't be avoided.
Eistla atk/mag reductions can't be avoided.

Like -- it's clear that bundling downsides is an interesting design space. It's so interesting that NF has done lots of it themselves 🙂

[cunning goblet]

ngl though, i'm definitely shifting to that if ever a pet can get serk3

[azure granite]

Raider in shambles

[slim basalt]

Smelly Shrooms already killed that spec. 😛 A topic for another thread perhaps

[balmy heart]

Yeah so why not Chimera

[cunning goblet]

because i prefer atlas

[slim basalt]

Why not have the follower just set player atk/mag stat to 99999?
What's your upper limit on how much power an offensive utility follower should be providing?

[azure granite]

At least smellies are consumables, meaning no PvP / Hard content, they can run out, and are seasonal

Not defending it. But it's a big jump from smellies to a follower

[balmy heart]

Like Chimera is only zerk 1 but Fey Chimera gives zerk 3 too?

[balmy heart]

True

[cunning goblet]

i don't want any offensive utility limits if there's no survival ultility being provided

[balmy heart]

But I am just putting an idea😉

[azure granite]

Phoenix has spoiled us

[cunning goblet]

full on dead things can't kill you stuff

[azure granite]

Well, not me.
I don't know what a pet is

[warped kayak]

I'd also like to mention, as sore did before, since fey chimera has nothing but a little added buff chance going for it, maybe if we added zerk 2 to it, or even zerk 3, it would see far more use by some classes (cough, realm, cough)

[balmy heart]

I have survived without Phoenix for 6 months as RS and it's slow very slow

[slim basalt]

There's also that entire angle to the discussion of follower balance (and, having choices).

The stronger and stronger you make the follower slot, the more and more GS (solely) falls behind others.

[balmy heart]

Other classes Like beo and GS, Heretic And Gilga can easily survive but RS will die or slow the hell down

[azure granite]

Remove all followers what I'm not biased

[languid forge]

As a fellow summoner i agree.

[slim basalt]

Well, I'm trying to be pretty serious here. 😅

[azure granite]

Yeah I know, I'm too silly for my own good. But it is a good point

[cunning goblet]

GS already stronk

[balmy heart]

I mean this all talk is about GS not getting Phoenix as follower

[azure granite]

If followers keep getting better and better, GS is gonna fall further and further behind

[languid forge]

What about a downside for birdie like after DC runs out you get a debuff like t.dmg down times 2.

[slim basalt]

Powercreep is bad enough, and powercreep in the follower slot is uniquely bad in that it also affects class choice because of GS's very particular relationship with followers.

It's also true of beo/auriga, to be fair, and has been for years.

[azure granite]

As it stands I'm okay with not having access to phoenix level of strength. That's what the class was designed to be able to go without.
But if stronger than phoenix followers start coming out...

[cunning goblet]

GS just needs skill slots so they can bring all summons and decide which to bring in the battlefield

[balmy heart]

But you all are getting better summons and better gears now which make you almost unable to die.

[azure granite]

There's only so much power Versatility can provide

Let's try to keep this phoenix focused please

[balmy heart]

😂😂😂 you don't really know nothing

[azure granite]

This ain a GS thread

[balmy heart]

Phoenix has been here for years.

So there's no new powercreep

[azure granite]

And also, try to keep personal attacks to a minimum.
Whereas the minimum is zero.

[soft maple]

Let's do better - we'll start this space out by striving for less insults of each other.
Cheers

[warped kayak]

That's gonna kill its use fully

[balmy heart]

Yeah I agree with that.

[balmy heart]

Okay

[cunning goblet]

yeah new things should be phasing out the birb, not the other way around

[slim basalt]

That's clearly untrue. Like I said in the OP, the biggest changes were blackened eyes which completely changed the field; and now there's +smartAI augments (and gear for valhallans and deity) which also change things.

[balmy heart]

Blackened eyes were already there for sometime

[slim basalt]

The bird can stand to lose power and other followers can stand to gain power.
There is a subthread here about "how much power should the follower slot be providing"

[slim basalt]

Negative.

Beo was added Mar 2020. Bird was added Jan 2021, Blackened Eyes were added Feb 2022.

[azure granite]

Their access was much lower last year due to

Lower luck cap
No/Low wayvessel alts
Only 4 boss floors per Den, since that change was this year.

[slim basalt]

We lived in a world where there was bird and no blackeneds, for a year.

[shadow matrix]

I might have an idea. Now we are discussing the Phoenixs, but they will probably have another few "meta pets" after that. So i thought that, maybe it's time to harm the followers ? Like, make skills that influence the enemy follower, like calls, but reverse. Make mobs passives that can mess with them. Make attacks that if they land, cripple a follower ability to buff/attack/debuff/ or straight up act. Make Valhallan more resistant to it.

It may be too much of a new thing to consider, but hey, what do you think?

[warped kayak]

If Phoenix can be removed as a follower (although I want my orns back), then everyone will switch to either golems or chimera.

[slim basalt]

The point is not to "remove" it.

[balmy heart]

GS was added late 2022

[slim basalt]

If you can't accept any reduction to its power then idk what to say.
The goal should be for there to be several good choices.

[cunning goblet]

the point is to make people think about picking the birb or consider others

not just insta lock birb and call it a day

[warped kayak]

When a project goes horribly wrong, you don't apply fixes, you delete the entire mess and work it back up from the ground

[slim basalt]

I think the easiest changes would be things like removing its protect%, removing its attacks. If it's going to be a DC machine, make it just a DC machine and not the rest.

Or similarly, replace its DC with a t.all^^^ that doesn't grant ward turns, so it's not an infinite ward turn generator while it's doubling player damage and defenses.

[balmy heart]

I don't want to lose something which everyone has used for so long.

[cunning goblet]

just make it like archimedes, just buffs and attacks, no ward

[balmy heart]

And also just because GS can't use followers doesn't mean others can't too

[warped kayak]

That's just the t8 Phoenix

[azure granite]

Again, we ain talking about GS

[cunning goblet]

t8 birb has ward

(through dc)

[warped kayak]

From DC alone

[cunning goblet]

archimedes doesn't have any

[warped kayak]

Which alone isn't enough to upkeep it all the time

[slim basalt]

The GS thing is an interesting side-discussion about the power of follower slots, and how GS (and beo/a who relies on the pet to be using attacks and not buffs) don't get to enjoy incremental powercreep in the follower slot.

[soft maple]

The last point would let Deity stack the buff with DC, as would really any change. Though the Deity DC Proc is considerably less controllable in most content

[slim basalt]

It would not. t.all^^^ is the same buff.

Imagine a skill that grants the buff -- but not +2 ward turns.

[cunning goblet]

unless spaghetti code happens and they stack

[soft maple]

Not sure it's mechanically that simple

[slim basalt]

If t.all^^^ stacks with t.all^^^ then yeah we've got problems 😅

[soft maple]

Regardless, the point around a change to DC on the bird is to consider the impacts it has on Deity specifically. I think that's worth considering for sure 🙂

[warped kayak]

One thing that can be done is a cooldown to buff abilities.
It would
A) fix pets using a t.buff when it's already applied
B) fix the 100% DC uptime
B) make players opt out for positive status duration

[cunning goblet]

we used to have separate bloodshift buffs and then combined into one, surely it can work for the t alls too

just have it categorized as same

[slim basalt]

Sure, it's been considered. A change to the bird's skill, replacing DC with "DC-but-without-ward-turns-using-a-different-name" would not have specific interaction with deity or any stacking buffs.

[azure granite]

Phoenician Channel?

[slim basalt]

There are multiple skills in the game that grant t.atk^, correct?
Multiple skills could grant t.all^^^.

[wraith shell]

everyone would still use it though, I dont think much will change

[cunning goblet]

lugus and deity ara/ursa buffs are already not stacking, so there should be a way

[slim basalt]

Well -- that's the question.

If you pare away all the "extras", is t.all^^^ by itself still better than all other follower options? It might well be, but the point is that it's doing that now + the "extras" at the moment.

[balmy heart]

I can agree with this, remove Protect chance, dec it's stats by a lot.

[azure granite]

Actually, does the autoDC from Deity give ward?

[cunning goblet]

we won't know until we get to test it

[slim basalt]

It does not @azure granite

[cunning goblet]

no

[azure granite]

Then it is possible to have wardless DC

[balmy heart]

And you can't change dc as dc is also self cast skill, which would mean self dc will also lose ward turns

[raw isle]

one way to "fix" the phoenix problem could be give DC to some other pet, or better, for not so powerfull, give great meditation or his t.atk^^^ equivalent to some T9 or 10 pet that mades sense ( polly aprentices, fenrir, furious cerus, etc)

[wraith shell]

T all^^^ by itself is just way stronger than anything any other pet can provide, I don think removing the ward turns will change much regarding the phoenix usage rates

[slim basalt]

I think the ward turns, the protect%, and the attacks aren't nothing. They're important to the whole follower output.

[soft maple]

Fwiw, that fix doesn't seem to me to solve the more regularly complained about issues with Phoenix. I'd be rather surprised if just removing the ward turn economy was considered a solid solution for those who have expressed issues.

I see much more regularly the combination of offence and defence buffs, with protection and ward turn benefits to be secondary factors from what I read. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting desires?

[azure granite]

T.all^^^ is in fact very strong, but if phoenix stops protecting, dealing damage and upkeeping ward turns, then it'll probably be a considerable cost to pay for such a strong effect

[sudden jackal]

They remove button presses for using WoO or similar skills after all

[azure granite]

I think it's just different people throwing different ideas into the pot. We're not exactly a united team that can agree on one thing 😅

[balmy heart]

The protect chance is too op in PvP, I would like it to be removed

[slim basalt]

Could do a survey on this. 🤩

"Would you use a Phoenix that still granted t.all^^^, but..."

• didn't grant ward turns?
• didn't have attacks?
• didn't have protect%?
• came with <some downside built-in>?

[soft maple]

We have quite the survey coming sometime... soon?

There'll be many divisive topics

[azure granite]

Btw, Ashen aside, just the t8 phoenix pet is pretty insane.
At t9, getting the t8 phoenix skyrocketed my raiding ability. Not only did my damage increase by a lot, I also stopped taking any damage whatsoever.

[warped kayak]

How would making the skill (full 100%) additive behave?

[azure granite]

We.. don't have additive buffs

[warped kayak]

I reckon it wouldn't be hard to make one

[azure granite]

I reckon it would be very, very confusing

But it's a possibility I suppose

[warped kayak]

I reckon it would.

[azure granite]

Maybe.

[balmy heart]

Might be

[warped kayak]

But could it fix Phoenix, alongside a medium sized reduction in ward turns?

[azure granite]

It'd be equally as strong as a turn 1 buff, but it'd be much much worse as a pile-ontop-ot-everything buff

And it might just make regular DC not worth casting

[warped kayak]

There's also 0 reason to have deific 1 turn, when the actual deific is 3 turn on both the raids and the self cast skill from the t9 God class

[balmy heart]

Well pets are just that amazing.

[azure granite]

Okay what if.
Pets get cast turns.

[balmy heart]

No

[languid forge]

That would shake the whole pet economy🤔

[azure granite]

It would, yes.

[warped kayak]

It's as if we don't have mega ultra strong titan augments that could be used to reduce it at sacrifice of power in another area

[balmy heart]

They will soon ber nerfed, so don't worry

[zinc dagger]

it's so strong that you even take it on deity while it just negate your DC passive.

[balmy heart]

Realms will again be on pedestal

[warped kayak]

Very rare realm W

[azure granite]

Though DC is the outlier when it comes to pets casting it for free in 1 turn.
Other strong pets that come to mind don't have long cast times for free.
Exceptions that come to mind are the living armors and dragon that cast DB, and the golems that cast MW

[balmy heart]

Realms never win

[soft maple]

To me, if the bonus was only 50% (t.all ^^) rather than 100% (t.all^^^), then overall it'd make a lot of other followers interesting.

Pegasus is already interesting for content like towers, as are multiple golems and the chimeras.

The issue is stacking with DC, of course. Perhaps t.alls shouldn't stack, just take the strongest one that is active.

Always get myself in trouble with "just do this" sentences when chatting to the devs.

[azure granite]

If that last point is possible, then that very much is a possible fix

Hadn't considered the ability to just say "no. This don't stack"

[warped kayak]

Make it a new one, after all why should a tamed pet be as strong as a ferocious beast strong enough to be categorized as a raid

[zinc dagger]

possible fix where Deity would just be doomed

[slim basalt]

That would be fairly cryptic (if "only the best t.all specifically is applied") if not overly explained in game.

Changing it to a 1.5x atk/mag/def/res/dex is certainly more palatable than the 2.0x it is now.
It'd still be better overall than e.g. 1.5x damage from the other offensive utility pets, because it'd be doing that + the defenses, + the ward turns, + the protect%.

[soft maple]

Yep, for sure. It'd have a lot of appeal still

Other followers would have more appeal than currently, at least. Alignment followers etc

[azure granite]

It'd be stronger than others still, but it'd need investment whereas a lot of the others don't

Since you only need one cast of zerk / align, as opposed to DC

[zinc dagger]

even if you reduce it to 50%, it will still be 50% att and def which is stronger than most of other buffs

[azure granite]

With celestial weapons, blackeneds get a little less use as well

...a little.

[balmy heart]

Well if you wish to change Phoenix there should be a majority vote or survey like this

[azure granite]

Dangy already confirmed a survey

[zinc dagger]

also if you nerf DC on pheonix, would you buff its proc rate ?

[azure granite]

No.

[zinc dagger]

well, idk then. It's pretty low at base. We should not kill the bird completely

[slim basalt]

It's not just me that wants it to change.
Also, realistically, these kinds of decisions shouldn't be particularly democratic.

I'm waiting for NF to step in and say "here's how much power there should be here", and we can discuss maybe interesting ways to approach that stated goal, if they don't already have plans.

Similarly, they should have accurate numbers on how much a certain follower is used. I'm positing that it's "a lot", but I don't have exact numbers. Speaking only for myself, running e.g. BeoH who doesn't need a damage follower and isn't GS, bird is the only choice and it's not even close. A goal that players should have some variety in their followers (like all other player choices) is something that I am just assuming is a good thing.

[azure granite]

The bird with its current act rate would still be competitive with the rest.

[zinc dagger]

don't forget the people who don't have blackened

[balmy heart]

It's just GS who wants it change

[slim basalt]

not true.

[azure granite]

Where'd you pull that information out of?

[balmy heart]

I would want it change for better and not destroy it

[azure granite]

Last I checked, you don't represent the entirety of the non-GS playerbase

[slim basalt]

I don't want it to be destroyed, and none of the changes I posited would destroy Phoenix. 🤷‍♂️

[azure granite]

But also, it's important to note that players don't always ask for buffs to the things that benefit them

[balmy heart]

True

This will benefit only gs

And not at the same time

[slim basalt]

It benefits anyone that values follower choice and not their own player power.

[zinc dagger]

when we talk about pheonix being overused, isn't it only true on heretics and deity ?

[slim basalt]

I'm more than happy to lose power if it leads to more meaningful choices/gameplay.

@zinc dagger no, it's overused on realms, gilgas, beoH as well.

[burnt mantle]

I found the best solution to render the Phoenix useless.
Make Deific Channel a player castable spell!

oh wait, it already is

dang it!

[slim basalt]

@burnt mantle do you have a point or are you just shitposting

[warped kayak]

What if we randomize dc?

[burnt mantle]

@slim basalt what do you think?

[warped kayak]

As in, sometimes it can give t.all^ or t.all^^, rarely t.all^^^
But never 2 or 3 at the same time

[burnt mantle]

what is the difference between pet DC and player DC?

[warped kayak]

Insta cast

Saves a skill slot

[burnt mantle]

exactly

[warped kayak]

But Phoenix without dc just sounds silly

[burnt mantle]

skill slot > pet slot

[zinc dagger]

pheonix without DC is just a cool sprite behind your character

[warped kayak]

I feel like it's dc itself that needs a change, while deity can be exempt from the changes

[balmy heart]

Wait, how will GS lose power?

[balmy heart]

No

[azure granite]

Can we stop talking about GS? The thread is about phoenix.

[warped kayak]

Care to apply arguments instead of just "no"?

[burnt mantle]

GS is too OP

[warped kayak]

And if you answer with a "no" istg

[balmy heart]

For it to be random there needs many values to be inpit

And for that to be done it should give all three of them.

But it would just start stacking all of those t.alls

[warped kayak]

Don't see how that's an issue tho...

[balmy heart]

But the one's arguing against it are all gs

Or beo

We want balance and not destroy it

[zinc dagger]

if pheonix was higher chance at all+ I'd be ok with it.

[balmy heart]

Remove Protect chance and dec it's stats.

That will the first step

[warped kayak]

Which is why I said never 2 or 3 at once, just 1 at a time.
If you wanna spend 9 turns getting all t.alls up that's your thing. Odds are you'll never have all 3 active at the same time due to duration

[balmy heart]

How will you stop that?

[warped kayak]

I ain't. The people that code it will

[balmy heart]

All the different types of buffs stack

[zinc dagger]

IF statement in the DC spell of the bird, easy

[warped kayak]

Yeah and? And exactly because of that you'll never get more than 1 per cast.

[zinc dagger]

but it's a bad idea anyway because it'll prevent deity from using it

you can't make all up non stackable because of that

[warped kayak]

You'd need big bird to insta cast dc 3 times minimum (with a chance it just gives you the buff you already have), and that's already somewhat hard without brynhild

[warped kayak]

Which is why I said exempt deity from this. Make deity only be able to proc t.all^^^ on itself.

Hold on, let me ask chatGPT how it would fix this

[zinc dagger]

i feel like your idea is too complicated to balance

[warped kayak]

Yep, it's a plaster rather than a surgery

(And plasters aren't very effective for internal damage are they)

[zinc dagger]

I still think a better uptime all+ would be ok.

[warped kayak]

Isn't that just zerk 2 but without self damage?

[slim basalt]

GS won't lose power.

But I've been playing BeoH pretty much exclusively for over a week now. Been using the bird in all that time, for reasons outlined at the very top of the thread. 🙂

BeoH, like all realm, gilgas, heretics, and deities, uses the bird. Anything where player damage is relevant and followers can be used.

[zinc dagger]

I feel like the pheonix problem is even worse on beoH because of having valhallan passive

[burnt mantle]

the Phoenix has been around for a few years now
changing it after all this time seems lame

not the case of it's sprite tho

great job Covyn

[slim basalt]

the bird has been around for a few years now
leaving it the same after all this time seems lame 😆

[burnt mantle]

tell me a pet that was changed after release

[azure granite]

Just because a problem has existed for a while, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.

[burnt mantle]

who sais it is a problem?

[slim basalt]

Fenrir, Cthulhu, DarkPeg, Ortanite Golem, and Mighty Slime -- just looking at T10 pets.

[azure granite]

The golems got changed.
In fact, there was an entire patch dedicated to a bunch of follower reworks

[warped kayak]

Everyone except you in this thread m8

[burnt mantle]

"i think this and that is too OP
nerf please, it is a problem"

[zinc dagger]

those who want to use any other pet than pheonix

[burnt mantle]

ask for better options then

[azure granite]

Nf go out of their way, make cool pets out of things like the olympian mnemonics. People open them and go "neat" and then put phoenix back on

[zinc dagger]

sure, let's powercreep even more just because of 1 pet

[azure granite]

Getting better options is just asking for powercreep considering that it's already an overtuned pet

[slim basalt]

So yeah -- put Zipper down in the camp of "nothing to change here".

Everyone can just use phoenix, don't bother having any player choice in the follower slot, or maybe we'll get lucky and NF will just release even more busted content one day that makes the bird look subpar because it "only" doubles player damage and defenses and gives ward turns and protects them. 👌

[azure granite]

You're saying you want MORE pets that can give you 100% to all stats, ward upkeep, block rate and damage

[burnt mantle]

the this isnt Phoenix's problem
it's NF problem
skill issue detected

[muted ferry]

No cost to use multi-turn skills in a turn, itself is problematic

[azure granite]

Where's the kick person from thread button

[burnt mantle]

no, lets stay at the same level and never progres

[slim basalt]

we haven't "progressed" when we've lost choice. we're regressed.

[muted ferry]

Especially with black eyes

[zinc dagger]

yes, like atlas. berserk1, ward turns, def/res++, but it's not DC

[burnt mantle]

w have pets that applies element blight
i personally use Lotan anytime i raid, never phoenix

[azure granite]

That's a different, ultima-shaped can of beans

[burnt mantle]

but no, NERF ultima and make those pets useless

[zinc dagger]

because you have ridiculous stuff and AL, but everyone else need pheonix for the defense

[azure granite]

Refer to #1084736327800606853 If you desire to talk about that.

[soft maple]

I have to go so won't be able to monitor - but I do hope that we can maintain civility and not stoop to sarcasm or trolling.

Have fun guys, good discussion 🙂

[zinc dagger]

kill ultima and pheonix, I want to see heretics suffer

[azure granite]

Have a good one dangy 👋

[zinc dagger]

bad timing is it ? lol

[burnt mantle]

Do you remember the time we had the holy augment at 30% and players used it in certain cases? I used it as Heretic while raiding and the difference between that and the crit augment was only a mere 25% imo(considering the need to supply crit with ashen pinions)
now it's at 15% and nobody uses it anymore, it became just a "trash" augment in the loot pool.
Nerfing things that harsh will kill content and we will resume just to 1 or maybe 2 pets.
Also introducing more and more useless pets that are not even close to the curent ones is just throwing rocks in a lake 😆

this month we got 4 more useless pets 🎉

[zinc dagger]

"Also introducing more and more useless pets that are not even close to the curent ones is just throwing rocks in a lake"

problem is, the current ones is just pheonix

[burnt mantle]

if you open your eyes, you will see what i mean

[slim basalt]

In a world where phoenix exists as it does now, many many many pets will be "useless".
So, change phoenix.

[burnt mantle]

give us useful pets and phoenix wont be a problem anymore

[zinc dagger]

what would be useful pet then ? one that give all ++++ ?

[burnt mantle]

you should tell me

[slim basalt]

give an example of a follower that you would add that you would use other than phoenix for things like, idk, endless, gauntlets, towers.

[muted ferry]

nerf phoenix or buff other pets

[slim basalt]

realistically both

[zinc dagger]

some pets need help, some don't

[devout sundial]

Gorynych for ultimate ward build

[warped kayak]

Reducing deific channel cast by the pet alone seems like the most efficient fix and the easiest to implement tbh. To 50%? Keep in mind this is from the pets deific channel only, not the self cast one or deity one.
Could be because the usual skill is 3 turns, and Phoenix pet uses it in 1 turn, therefore not having enough time to use the spell with its full effectiveness

Another solution is to just give Phoenix DC the full cast time while retaining the full buff

[burnt mantle]

that would be annoying

[muted ferry]

What should be changed is the action model of the pet.

[zinc dagger]

it's useless because you still can play while pheonix is channeling

[muted ferry]

Black eyes destroy it

[warped kayak]

And a third, and I feel like the least welcome one, would be to just make t.all up sources additive buffs, instead of multiplicative

[burnt mantle]

give us DC accesories
problem solved

[warped kayak]

If I missed any recommendation from you I'd like if you could tag it so I can read it

But so far you've just disagreed with everything

[burnt mantle]

@warped kayak

[burnt mantle]

@warped kayak

[slim basalt]

I'm still waiting to hear an example implementation of a pet that competes with Phoenix

[burnt mantle]

and there are a few more

[slim basalt]

I want to see the depths of the true powercreep enjoyers

[warped kayak]

This is a joke 💀

[warped kayak]

This is literally the thread is about

[devout sundial]

What about this

This one is pretty good

[warped kayak]

But can't have any useful pets when 1 pet is upkeeping your ward and also giving you a passive 2x to everything

[slim basalt]

Lotan/Quetz/Gory/Ymir as a 2.4x for specifically Ultima (no other skills) instead of a 2x for everything and no defenses is at least "some" kind of competition. I mean, not really, but good enough for HoF WRB kills I guess -- wouldn't be particularly good in the rest of pve.

The thing is, you don't need an argument to be convinced that Phoenix is overpowered.
You only have to look at what people use and what they do, and see that ~everyone that does player damage leans heavily on the bird.
Its power and its use are directly observable.

[zinc dagger]

it's good on deity, but DC also gives you super high def/res which is stronger in most cases

[thorn hatch]

Phew that was long to read all,
but I agree with Dangy on the point where Pheonix is insanely strong because pets doesn't need turns to cast those kind of spells

Ultima, Cataclyms, DC, Mend Wall III

They are all strong spells casted turn 1 by followers

[muted ferry]

and DB1

[thorn hatch]

Outside dungeons, is it that terrible for followers to respect the number of turns required for each spells ?

[warped kayak]

Not to mention ymir isn't gonna do anything in pvp because of steadfast.
And yet again when I took it raiding with beo prisma blight didn't give any blights

[thorn hatch]

There is also Meditation from Archimedes

[burnt mantle]

dont get me wrong
i use Lotan while i raid
but in gauntlets, endless and towers for example i use the Phoenix
specific cases pets are good, but we need a general pet and that happens to be the phoenix

[slim basalt]

@warped kayak good news -- elemblights ignore steadfast, as a secret mechanic. 🤷‍♂️ ||Because NF knows how strong steadfast is and how it would trivialize an entire event, Draconian Era.||

We don't need "a" general pet, we could/should have several opposing options for the follower slot.

[balmy heart]

Give us a pet which gives zerk 3 and nothing else.

I would use that instead of phoenix

[zinc dagger]

that's a very realmshifter take

[thorn hatch]

Not really, that would be strong for Endless too

[balmy heart]

Then it would become completely useless in Endless

[burnt mantle]

i agree
but you have only 1 pet slot and the "general" thing about the phoenix is DC buff, double the stats
what is more general then that?

[burnt mantle]

we have shrooms

and spec

[balmy heart]

Then every buff should be additive instead of multiplicative

[warped kayak]

Nah just t.all ups

Spice things up a little

[balmy heart]

We also have dc skill.

But that's not the issue

It's about using a pet which can compete with Phoenix

I would use something which gives zerk 3 instead of phoenix

[warped kayak]

Nah but it's kinda difficult to get all 3 zerks unless you farmed a gazillion smelly shrooms from nagg

[balmy heart]

Just use ashen ruby

[burnt mantle]

in general cases, whoever increases our damage the most efficient way is the winner

[zinc dagger]

serk3 give 50% stats at the cost of losing 999 hp per turn, gaits give 50% at the cost of another stat droping by 90%, DC give 100% stats at the cost of... oh

[warped kayak]

You either go berserker (less att bonus) and get zerk 1 and 2 (2 skill slots) and use smelly shrooms (finite)
Or you go raider (infinite smelly shrooms, 1 skill slot) but then you need chimera for zerk 1 and shroom for zerk 2 and it takes up your Phoenix slot

[thorn hatch]

of 3 turns

Except for pets

That's the major problem here

[balmy heart]

The place I really use phoenix is Towers and Endless

If the phoenix dc becomes 3 turn skill, then it would destroy rs

[zinc dagger]

the place I really use phoenix is Orna

[warped kayak]

If fey chimera (event locked) gave zerk 3 instead of zerk 1, then raider would see no more use when you get it, but I'd take it over Phoenix outside of pvp

[balmy heart]

Same with Towers

Though there can be alternatives in towers

But endless will be a bust

[balmy heart]

Well that's skill issue

I use it in winters for heating

[zinc dagger]

ah ah yes, the famous "skill issue".

[burnt mantle]

Heretics have 2 viable options when it comes to raiding
either Phoenix with act rate or Lotan with no act rate but more souls of achlys
and i see Heretics raiding both with Phoenix and with Lotan

what other class then Heretic uses Lotan?

this is what we need
useful pets for every class in different pieces of content

[balmy heart]

Well that's because of Ultima

But still yeah

There are other pets which are being used.

And there are times when certain pets are being used by everyone

Like Chimera during Dragonic event

By every class except gs

Oh wait gs don't do party

[burnt mantle]

you as RS use Realmstrikes and Sortie while raiding i think
we as Heretics we use Ultima and more recent we have the option to use Aquila Sigil+Ara Vesta I, option that changes our entire playstyle and build.
Ultima build with Lotan
Aquila Sigil+Ara Vesta I with Phoenix 🙃

[balmy heart]

Only Realmstrikes

[thorn hatch]

And that's cool because we adapt our build to the environment

[balmy heart]

Yeah what we need is more skills.

And new pets

[thorn hatch]

That's another problem for another thread

[balmy heart]

Yeah, that's how we need to work

[thorn hatch]

There is a lack of diversity in pets, I strongly agree

[balmy heart]

Adapt and destroy a pet.

[burnt mantle]

ask for a pet that has a temporary debuff that increases physical damage against the target by 2.4x

[thorn hatch]

Learn, Adapt, Overcome

• Beowulf mains probably

[burnt mantle]

and you will have to chose between a more consistent 100% stats increase vs not that consistent 140% physical damage increase

[balmy heart]

Like someone which gives physical weakness sigil something?

[burnt mantle]

something like that

[balmy heart]

Hmm that's interesting

[burnt mantle]

a weakness exposed debuff

[balmy heart]

Could be an alternative to phoenix in raids

[burnt mantle]

exactly

[balmy heart]

But wait, NF doesn't buff melee classes

[thorn hatch]

Don't drama queen us pls

[burnt mantle]

why do i need to give other classes good suggentions?
solve your own problems

[balmy heart]

😂

[zinc dagger]

more like "learn, adapt, accept the reality"

[balmy heart]

5 stages of griefs

[thorn hatch]

That was the case for a certain class for a loooong time

[balmy heart]

I agree with the plight of Beo class members

[thorn hatch]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-sad-why-why-are-we-still-here-just-to-suffer-gif-17485467

Beowulf will greatly improve from followers improvments and increased diversity

[zinc dagger]

unless it's BeoH who benefits the most of pheonix out of all classes

[burnt mantle]

remember, diversity lies in numbers

[thorn hatch]

Yes aaand no

It does profit from Pheonix, but I can use a follower with Dragonblight for Raids

[zinc dagger]

wait, let's pretend Ultimas don't exists for a moment.

[thorn hatch]

Ultim..what ?

[zinc dagger]

because everytime I see someone say they don't use pheonix, it's just because they use blights for ultima.

[thorn hatch]

or Use Realmstrikes + Affinity + Blights

[heavy crescent]

Hot take: y’all realize there’s always going to be ONE PET that rules them all because so much content is done via wayvessels and you can’t swap pets while there right? So that mechanic combined with laziness means there will always be one generic per good enough for most things

[thorn hatch]

Odie is working on that, don't worry

[heavy crescent]

Let’s not pretend if there are 5 viable things that 1) you can use it in wv and 2) your lazy ass is actually gonna pet swap

[balmy heart]

And I am happy that you guys got some buff

[zinc dagger]

plot twist, everyone turns into GS because of that.

[heavy crescent]

GS literally is pets on skill bar so yeah

But for everyone else

It’s not Phoenix that’s the problem

If it’s not Phoenix

It’s rhino

Or T. rex

Coz you can’t swap shit in wv

And people are lazy

That’s it

[zinc dagger]

nice, now I want a trex pet...

[thorn hatch]

Dino pets 🤤

I mean, primordial dragons*

[heavy crescent]

Clicking castle > pet > shit scrolling just to min max for a 2-3 min content type?

No thanks

[zinc dagger]

the "back in time" event

[heavy crescent]

I’d just make do with the thing that works well for MOST use cases

And currently it happens to be bird

[thorn hatch]

Huge potential

for events

[burnt mantle]

-suggest move pets into our inventory and swap between them like equipment

[thorn hatch]

Odie is working on a npc that allows you to switch your pet quicly in WV / Towers

[heavy crescent]

^ that would do more for pet diversity

Than any pet specific changes

[balmy heart]

True

[heavy crescent]

Nerf Phoenix we will be back here

Nerfing atlas

[balmy heart]

Then nerf chimera

[thorn hatch]

That would be simplier, since you can also use filters ... but Odie seems to like overcomplicated stuffs

[heavy crescent]

Nerf atlas we’ll be back here nerfing chimera

[balmy heart]

Then nerf pets

[heavy crescent]

Just work top down

Then everyone’s a GS

[zinc dagger]

you can take 6 of them with you by storing them in balls... remind me of something

[muted ferry]

more RPG feel

[thorn hatch]

isn't that RPG to go to a walk is more than ONE follower ?

I mean, the inventory is just an UI, a fricking interface, of course you don't treat your little friends as objects ... it's just more logical and practical

[muted ferry]

talk with compute to switch your ball

[balmy heart]

Beo with two followers, ashen and fjalr

[heavy crescent]

You mean cactus and fjalar

[thorn hatch]

with the skill Follower Swap / Defend

[heavy crescent]

And then cry when agg shows up

[balmy heart]

Oh yeah, phoenix was nerfed

[thorn hatch]

use an Elemental Affinity

[zinc dagger]

"you can't take all your pets with you !" -someone with 4t of fishes in his pockets

[thorn hatch]

dead fish*

[heavy crescent]

And 999 potions

Or varying sizes

Not to mention 46k stacks of wood

👌

[balmy heart]

I will soon make a video Named SoreLosers Pockets, they are infinite and show them my inventory and keeps inventory

[zinc dagger]

dimensional pockets

[onyx barn]

Can I argue that phoenix is only reliable only when there is significant investment in buffing pet action rate. Without such investment, I actually find chimera and blight pet to be more reliable

That will also free up my slot for crit build or something else

[zinc dagger]

that's why my suggestion was all+ on higher chances

[onyx barn]

Oh i forget. You need + buff duration amity or some equivilent and blacken eye for phoenix to be reliable

[zinc dagger]

all+ stay longer than all+++, I see this as an absolute win

[balmy heart]

Not really.

Because with Buff amity and kerb eyes even dc stays for most of the time.

So no it won't be a win

[zinc dagger]

it free you amity slot for crit damage, and your adorn slots for crit rate or achlys. And I was saying a win if we assume it as to be nerfed.

[balmy heart]

Even with amity t.all doesn't stay for that long

I have been doing towers with that amity and it really doesn't work how you all think it does.

T.all stays for just the same amount of time dc stays for

And sometimes less

[zinc dagger]

oh, I assumed it was longer based on the fact that att+ was longer than att+++. It should be longer. but that's when the higher proc chance kicks in.

[balmy heart]

With that amity it stays for enough and with kerb dc already gets activate quite often.

So it won't be better than dc ever with current setup

[zinc dagger]

talking about skill issues but you can't play without your free perma DC it seems...

[balmy heart]

Yeah, that's the issue

Without it Endless is very hard for Realms.

We already don't have any skill choice and you want to take away one thing which lets us survive

[balmy heart]

It's same for GS guys

GS: They have it and I can't have it. Then I will destroy it.

I still feel for you beo guys so I won't comment on anything. You still need a bit of buff

[burnt mantle]

it's fun that GS and Beo want Phoenix nerfed

[onyx barn]

ikr lol

[buoyant yew]

Learn, adapt, dont overcome cause damage pets are garbage

[burnt mantle]

even funnier is that they nerfed themselves
like how a GS brought into discussion in General the fact that Ancient Dragon uses element blight that ultima benefits from and Odie said that wasnt intentional and nerfed it

[robust quarry]

That's what happens when people try to see the whole picture and aren't singularly concerned about their own power(-creep)

Blackened eyes were a mistake in my opinion just like the first iteration of ashen rubies.
Phoenix is the outlier in pets. It's unreasonable for it to do everything. I even take phoenix into towers with 0 act rate. It's still better than the alternatives, lol.

[ionic hill]

I thought the AI stuff didn’t affect phoenix? Like it only affects skills with a relationship, like lindworm or the blights?

[prime willow]

Puts on Godforged Tinfoil Guys guys, me thinks its a part of a greater plan to nerf Beo even more by SS (Summoner Society, not the other one). Tis just one of the few steps required for this but its easy to tell apart for whenever "betterment for the sake of community as a whole" is said, it does actually mean "Beo should be nerfed for they are reaching dangerously playable levels" with the Phoenix as a smokescreen. Open your eyes, people.

[buoyant yew]

I tested it again since we have more sources of it now in the titan adorns. Outside of mark/sigil/blight it also increased the likelihood of using buffs, debuffs and aoe abilities

[burnt mantle]

whenever a class wants to nerf another class, that is a red flag
skill issue detected

[ionic hill]

OHHHH niceeeee. Thanks❤️❤️❤️

[burnt mantle]

thd only reason would be PVP
and since Odie will separate PVE mechanics from PVP, we will get a fix for all the "pls nerf" complains

[zinc dagger]

whenever a class don't wants to be balanced, that is a red flag
skill issue detected

[ionic hill]

Oh. Again. That’s not confirmed. 😐 He only said they’re thinking about it. “Looking into it” was the exact phrase. Why not wait until it’s confirmed before deciding around that?

Though…..I don’t see another option. Lol. It’s just gonna be hard to implement. Gonna need a huuuuuuge update

[burnt mantle]

"Additionally, this is the first time we are looking in to separating PvP and PvE class/skill performance, putting an end to difficulties balancing one without harming the other."

#game-announcements message

[ionic hill]

That. It’s the same thing. 😂 I was just paraphrasing. Got the important part: looking into it. It’s gonna be a while.

[burnt mantle]

you said that's not confirmed
yes it is

[ionic hill]

I mean. Let’s be honest here….only GS and realms are constantly talking about other classes and what they can do…🤨

[burnt mantle]

Odie confirmed he is looking in to separating PVE and PVP

[balmy heart]

You are wrong.

Only realms talk about that

GS talks about pets

[zinc dagger]

and every time you speak about balancing Ultima, heretics come in and start their lobby. Guess it's the same for the perma free DC now.

[ionic hill]

Ehhh. Actually it’s only me. Lol. Heretics have given up on that

Oh. Idc. Don’t get me wrong. But yeah…literally have never seen a heretic say “I want to use summons too”…or any other class for that matter.

Phoenix won’t be nerfed.

[burnt mantle]

aham aham

[ionic hill]

Charon doesn’t do anything.

Try it against morri💀

HAHAHAHA. That’s a hella funny ss though

[burnt mantle]

here, i fixed that statement for you

[burnt mantle]

it is indeed

[zinc dagger]

that would be cool if summon chances were not tied to summoner classes but to the fact that you have a pet equiped or not.

[ionic hill]

How long did that take? The patience you have is otherworldly 😂😂

[burnt mantle]

around 2 hours i think 😂

[ionic hill]

JFC 🤣

[balmy heart]

You are mad my man

[burnt mantle]

or leave it as it is and have both ✅

[robust quarry]

What if a class wants to nerf itself?

[balmy heart]

Ask everyone in that class.

[burnt mantle]

you wont see a class wanting this
but when nerfs come, we kinda feel that it was a good nerf

[balmy heart]

If they really want it

[burnt mantle]

when Odie nerfed holy augments, we were ok with it
we felt that it was indeed too op

[balmy heart]

I mean we got Gymir, which was a buff for Realms as it worked with HT then it didn't and then it did and then it didn't again ever

Which ultimately buffed Gilga but it is trash skill for Realms.

[zinc dagger]

I think on such topic, NF should just go "we think X is too strong, we're changing it for Y. Now you can test it in beta and give your feedback."

[ionic hill]

Beta should have everyone use their own accounts. Mirrors. Having a new account just doesn’t let one see what’s really gonna happen.

Which is why we’re in this problem in the first place. Imo

A brand new account, even with all the regular game GFd gear…just doesn’t even come close to an actually account

[balmy heart]

This

[zinc dagger]

true

[balmy heart]

If you need to test something, give them the best weapons they can get in the game including event ones.

[zinc dagger]

or just your own stuff so you can compare to what you have already experienced

[warped kayak]

No adorns, no weapons that would allow players for actual testing to see how the diversity would go

[robust quarry]

Yeah, event gear and adorns makes s huge difference in beta

[warped kayak]

Like...who is gonna have a 200% godforged arisen fey crowsong

[balmy heart]

Yeah either this

[balmy heart]

So true lol

And they didn't give Ymir Feathers to RS in Beta

That's such a noob move to test the new classes

[warped kayak]

No 200% godforged fey yeti coat 😩

[zinc dagger]

I can't even get a proper bulwark on live...

[ionic hill]

Yeah. The lack of adorns was horrible.

[warped kayak]

Game told me 174% take it leave it

I ended up taking it

[balmy heart]

You would hate my bulwark collection then

[lavish pollen]

Literally, me in #🍂│late-game-⭐10 yesterday

That summons are not only -90% power, but very problematic to be summoned by a non-summoner, while RS's signature skill has lost its dot damage to be heavily utilized by any class.

[zinc dagger]

every class should have its signature move imo.

[lavish pollen]

The problem isn't the phoenix. The problem is the lack of imagination of the majority of players who expect to get a ready-made build. And no-one is able to produce limitless builds each event and few are willing to share them, too, since Orna is still about some competition.

[lavish pollen]

Should, but many don't anymore. At least, I can't name any signature RS skill which would work for RS only.😅

SS has been heavily utilized by heretics in the past before it's been restricted to gilga classes

[cunning goblet]

SS has been used by rs cata before too

and still being occasionally used by deity now

[zinc dagger]

what I mean is 1 skill truly locked to a class (not a mere malus on it), so it can also be a powerfull buff skill.

[cunning goblet]

though much rarer than before due to penalty

[robust quarry]

How is the problem not Phoenix?
No amount of imagination will provide you with as much survivability + damage.

[zinc dagger]

be careful or you could be gifted a "skill issue"

[raw isle]

easy, give DC to T10 polly aprentice, more damage and survivality than fenix

[robust quarry]

Uh yes. Hypothetical pets can of course be better than what we currently have. 😅
(If you give them what makes phoenix best)

[raw isle]

but the thing is that, either nerf somehow the fenix or make some pets, either old or new, more atractivew than fenix

[zinc dagger]

atlas give serk1 and t.def/red ++

and it regen 15%ward

[cunning goblet]

just remove it's towerfall attack

[zinc dagger]

mmmmmh I like when atlas just spend 10 turns before giving me zerk

[verbal scarab]

I don't even know what a follower that does more than Phoenix would look like, and that's what a lot of players are asking for 😅

Why should your follower slot be worth more than your entire player character itself? atm Phoenix is worth as much as your player character

[zinc dagger]

maybe the problem is that follower act rate is additive, turn it multiplicative and low proc chances (such as DC) will stay low unless you giga invest in it

(base chance + valhallan stuff) * stuff chance

[hardy merlin]

This calls for a RS adjustment instead of status quo with a follower that is taken by 99% of the players 24/7 and is clearly outperforming each and every other options, while just straightly overperforming for the little investment of few already powerful adornments. Should not be used as argument as to why Phoenix should not receive, in my opinion, a justified nerf. And yes. I am also using Ashen Phoenix as I also have Deity Ara. And I can still see how broken op this pet is when compared to anything else available and just overall as a follower on a non-beo class.

[frosty salmon]

I dont undertand why holy was nerfed but not critical bonus. Speaking of phoenyx i love it, but it is true that it is so good that other followers fall behind. However I see the solution more in the line of changing ultima behaviour rather than changing the pet itself. For example, if ultima takes into account resistances to reduce damage, pets that applly sigils and blights would become on par with phoenyx.

On the other hand I agree that damage and protection could be reduced

However, many goods t10 pets have already some skills to help you sustain ward: golems, gorynich, polly apprentices... to get rid of that .

[azure granite]

The critical bonus is getting hit too, it just hasn't yet.

[verbal adder]

although i agree that phoenix is too good of a pet, and they can reduce the atk chance / damage, and remove protect chance. This seems to me is just a nerf to all other classes except Beo and GS.

[buoyant yew]

Idk about gs but relative to follower based beo most classes could use a nerf

Beos current best build uses phoenix too

[verbal adder]

beo could use a buff instead,
but this is gonna go offtopic from the main discussion.

[balmy heart]

Yeah so first let RS get their balance update before phoenix debuff

[slim basalt]

Would you accept a nerf if it meant that you had an honest choice about which follower to use?

[verbal adder]

no? lmao

other followers needs a rework from my stand point

[zinc dagger]

again with the "buff everything else" ? it's just never a good idea overall

[verbal adder]

rework the followers, including phoenix
no buffs

[zinc dagger]

like I said earlier, the main problem is that some pets are balanced around proc chance but blackened eyes just negate that balancing aspect. make the proc rate from stuff multiplicative and not additive so low proc rate will stay low.

[slim basalt]

If you removed the protect chance from Phoenix, that would be nerfing the phoenix.
If you are attempting to bring any other pet up to Phoenix, then you would be dramatically buffing that other pet.

[verbal adder]

They can, if they want
im just suggesting these nerf out of kindness for people who wants a nerf to phx, else i prefer a rework instead

[slim basalt]

What would a rework look like, of Phoenix or of an example other follower to bring it up to Phoenix's level?

[cunning goblet]

i would like a towerfall removal on atlas please

it's probably the closest option i see for phoenix competition

at least imo

[zinc dagger]

but getting atlas is soooooo random

[verbal adder]

scroll up, a lot have been discussed and suggested
too much complaints in a discussion thread

[buoyant yew]

removing towerfall won't magically increase its other action rates though

it'll just have more dead turns where it doesn't use any move at all

[cunning goblet]

yes, but i just don't want towerfall to overwrite a turn that could have been a def buff instead

[zinc dagger]

is it how it works ? isn't it in skill order ?

[cunning goblet]

iirc no more skill order, or maybe i'm wrong

i know there's no more action type order

[zinc dagger]

if it's no more action type order, it may be skill order, then towerfall is not stealing any turns

[cunning goblet]

i'll just assume there's no skill order for the sake of discussion

people want options anyway right

[zinc dagger]

skill order is very important for pet balancing imo. that would be best if we had an answer from odie on this one.

[azure granite]

I'd like to point out how silly it is that phoenix is so strong, that the concept of "Nerf Phoenix" is interchanged with "Nerfing All non-summoner classes"

[slim basalt]

I have read the entire thread. I'm asking your opinion.

I've put out potential changes/implementations for Phoenix and taken lots of flak for it.
Get some skin in the game. 🙂

[zinc dagger]

hey you scholars, do you know how pet skills are chosen, skill order or type order (or random) ?

[cunning goblet]

it would be best, except it's probably not happening, player discovery is strong on this one

[slim basalt]

Yeah, I have a pretty good idea about how pet AI works.

[manic terrace]

what about this: phoenix starts battle in egg form. as an egg, it has a 50% per turn to be born into phoenix as we know it (as pet action, this can be increased by blackeneds, etc.). once it casts dc, it turns back into egg (and can be reborn again). thematic, and it slows phoenix down which decreases it's power.

[hazy scarab]

Tried reading the whole thread, love the discussion. Could it be (instead of t.all) just offensive stats up?

[slim basalt]

@zinc dagger I guess since this thread has been treated like #👋│general or #🌳│tier-10-help or #off-topic, might as well continue. 🤷‍♂️

Pet AI is primarily category-first. Heals are checked before buffs, which come before debuffs, which come before spells + attack.

So you go category by category. For each category, for each skill, you check validity (i.e. a heal won't happen if the player is at full health, a buff won't happen if the player has the buff, a debuff won't happen if an enemy has the debuff) and add its rate to a selection pool. SmartAI shows up here and multiplies that rate. Then you roll on the pool, and a failure to hit moves to the next category.

Once you exhaust all categories, the pet takes no action.

There's no ordering within a category -- that has thankfully been randomized ||but used to not be randomized||.

SmartAI is new and extremely cryptic. The amount of boost is very hard to know offhand. There are 3 boosts currently:

• buff/debuffs that haven't already landed on player/enemy respectively get the smartAI boost (<<< this is what boosts Phoenix)
• aoe skills are boosted when there are >1 enemies present
• skills that react to an explicit mark or weakness are boosted (execute following lyonmark, elementals following elemblight/sigil)

Most people can run 2-augment (+8 rate, +smartAI) in a celestial and turn Phoenix from something that should be DCing every 10 turns to something that DCs every 2-3 turns. Or outside the augments, you can get +smartAI on things like BeoH and Deity (non-celestial) by equipping the valhallan quetz pieces.

[buoyant yew]

Based on my testing, temp buffs that have already landed get boosted regardless

by smart ai

possibly cause of dc's ward turns

[slim basalt]

The problem with DC is that it may be because it grants ward turns...

damnit, I couldn't type fast enough 😆

[zinc dagger]

ty teacher

now we all know that towerfall don't eat ward turn anyway on atlas

[languid forge]

Like with tower guard summon spamming GM2 cuz of it's t.res down even if t.mag^^^ is applied?

[buoyant yew]

Yes

[slim basalt]

It's almost certainly the case that enemy AI uses a very similar if not the same system.

[buoyant yew]

This also used to be the case with the mightiest mimic and mighty mimic with mimics mischief

where you had to get both double up on yourself and single down on the enemy to prevent it from spamming mischief

[slim basalt]

It's still the case. TMM will use MM for debuff% because it causes single stat downs -- but because it has 0% base debuff rate, this is only seen with +rate passives/gearing.

[buoyant yew]

It hasn't happened to me anymore at least 🤷‍♂️

but I also don't use tmm that much

[earnest ginkgo]

What if phoenix gave t all ++ instead o t all +++? Halving the effectiveness but keeping his utility

[zinc dagger]

wouldn't work with deity (imagine having all+++ and all++ lmao)

[earnest ginkgo]

Didn't think about auto DC lol

[cunning goblet]

i thought people don't want deity buff

[buoyant yew]

isn't much different than having alignment and dc, or zerk and dc

[slim basalt]

The problem with having it giving anything other than t.all^^^ is that it would stack with other buffs.
Dangy was thinking about a potential way to have only the highest "temp all" booster -- but yeah, something like that would be very hard to explain in-game.

[earnest ginkgo]

I thought about it being in line with other pet buffs being ×1,5

[earnest ginkgo]

This could actually work, so diety can have at the same time only 1 t all

[pulsar gorge]

Chiming in despite the odd focus on GS players being the one in question. I sidemain heretic, if it wasn't for the fact that perma/auto DC was always at play for me thanks to 10% additional pet act on a chimera stick, probably wouldn't be able to clear a bunch of content. AP seems to be the standard in terms of how difficult things are without easy DC. Should be more options and imo Phoenix should lose DC so that pets like archimedes can shine on through, still give a strong-but-not-as-strong benefit. DC is an all in one buff and imo is part of the problem with Phoenix having it. Maybe turn Phoenix into the T. ATK 3 pet for people, with Ashen Phoenix having access to both GM and whatever the T. ATK 3 skill ends up being. Thus removes the defensive, reduces the odds of getting the buff you want, but still getting the benefit.

[buoyant yew]

You can technically get x1.5 buff from another supportive follower and selfcast dc, but the amount of turns saved with phoenix far outperforms those options

[balmy heart]

Wouldn't it interfere with t.att/mag +++ and t.atk/mag+ too then

[buoyant yew]

I can use three or four buffs and I'm ready to start hitting million+ dmg, if I had to setup myself (and refresh it every time) I'd lose so many turns it's just a net loss

[balmy heart]

And it would also interfere with those who use askr garb and make it redundant

[pulsar gorge]

Ooooor Askr garb covers the issue and people can move onto other followers

+build diveristy yay

[slim basalt]

I definitely think that bundling a downside with the skill would be the cleanest way to reduce its outright power.

If it used a skill X (not named Deific Channel) that gave the player {t.all^^^, t.atk-, t.mag-, t.def-, t.res-}, that would be something.
There could be other downsides such as self-stun, self-whatever. It wouldn't require any new engine changes, secret/unexplained mechanics, etc.

That's beyond reducing the follower's power by lessening its "extras" -- infinite ward turns, its damage/dots, its protect%.

[balmy heart]

Yeah Just give askr garb 1500 def/res and 45 % ward at 200%

Because that's what we will lose

If we're to use it in all places

Especially raids

Askr garb build is used for party dungeons

[pulsar gorge]

Nah

With celestial classes and other followers, your defenses can be found in other ways

[balmy heart]

The main thing I don't understand is why are beo and GS want to nerf phoenix?

[pulsar gorge]

Why is that even an argument?

[balmy heart]

They never used it much and won't use it much either

[balmy heart]

Because the ones the ones who wants nerf are the ones who won't be affected by it at all

[pulsar gorge]

I used and use it 24/7 on other classes

War rosters are nothing but AP

Raid videos, more AP

[balmy heart]

Yeah, on other classes not on your main

[pulsar gorge]

Again, why does that matter?

[balmy heart]

So are PvP with GS

[pulsar gorge]

That says nothing to the issue and is an attack on the person

[balmy heart]

All the new players you find are GS in PvP

[pulsar gorge]

This is about AP

[balmy heart]

So nerf GS?

Yeah that's the same thing.

[pulsar gorge]

Do you feel AP needs a nerf? Yes or no?

[balmy heart]

Not to the dc part but other things can be changed

[pulsar gorge]

So that's a yes?

[hardy merlin]

It's irrelevant completely what class is asking for Phoenix nerf. It's about being able to see how unhealthy it is for the game with no incentive to self-service. It's probably due to GS and Beo having least stakes in the Phoenix pet, but I use Phoenix a lot as Deity Ara and I still am able to see how absurdly overpowered it is - how much benefits it gives - therefore I still would like to see it toned down, which would open more follower options instead of 99% playerbase being perma slotted with phoeni

[balmy heart]

Yeah in a way which won't nerf other classes too

[pulsar gorge]

Then focus on that instead of attacking people for their class choices.

[balmy heart]

That's the thing.

You all are focusing on the nerfing a pet and neglecting the core issue of most of the claseses

It's simply because you don't really use it for your own class

[slim basalt]

Yeah I'm not comfortable being accused of only bringing this up because it's class warfare in a zero-sum game.
It's untrue and harmful to discussion.

[pulsar gorge]

That you're able to get defenses through other things than just AP? Such as the Olympian Tower pets?

There are seriously other options

There always has been.

[balmy heart]

The only place I really use it is in endless

[pulsar gorge]

The problem with AP is that DC being cast freely and repeatedly completely negates the need for any of those other options

[hardy merlin]

tbh this pet's power, combined with blackened eyes, is the core issue.

the balance of classes is a completely different matter

[buoyant yew]

I use phoenix in raids, pvp, world, and towers

a42 beo

[balmy heart]

Okay people waiting a year and farming for those gear and eyes and pets is a issue?

[pulsar gorge]

Like, you can easily two turn DC now in some builds, only increasing the rotation by one turn. And run something like Achemedis. Or skip Chimera weapon, go (Fey) chimera and run that as well

Fomo event gear has always been an issue imo but that's another convo

[hardy merlin]

can't blame people for using a blatantly overpowered tool at their disposal

[pulsar gorge]

But nada, why do that when easy free cast DC that doesn't even eat a turn

[balmy heart]

Only in mage builds

[pulsar gorge]

Whiiiich is why I recommended swap Phoenix to T. ATK 3 and AP to have both

So those free turn triple ups are still there but the bigger problem, DC on a pet, is resolved

[balmy heart]

Both what?

[pulsar gorge]

GM and T. ATK 3

[balmy heart]

GM?

[hardy merlin]

T.mag 3

[brittle token]

Great Meditation or something

[pulsar gorge]

Great Medtitation, yeah. M'bad there.

[wraith shell]

Its just an overtuned pet. Why do you think >95% of T11 players use it? I also abuse the shit out of it on my heretic but I dont think it's healthy for the game

[hardy merlin]

same here

I also participate in AL system, but I don't think it's healthy for the game at all in its current state. But I digress

[balmy heart]

How?

If everyone is using it then how is it unhealthy?

[buoyant yew]

Cause it literally obsoletes every other follower in the game outside of endless setups

and shoehorns everyone into the same build with the same event items

[hardy merlin]

if everyone had their ATK and MAG and HEALTH set to 1000000, would that be healthy?

[wraith shell]

Cause what is the point of all the other pets then lol

[balmy heart]

Because there are only 4 types of things in games

[slim basalt]

That is the very essence of this thread.
Follower choice is the thing that is lacking; the game is worse with less follower choice.

[balmy heart]

Raiding, PvP, Dungeoneering and Endless.

Raiding people use different pets too and not only phoenix

It's different for different classes

[slim basalt]

Not... really. Phoenix is still used in extreme amounts in raids on all classes that can use it there.

[balmy heart]

PvP is now few turn games and GS is at the top

[hardy merlin]

posted this before, but pet variety

[pulsar gorge]

That's exactly the point that is being made here. What reason to use new pet if it doesn't offer what AP does? Why bother with other pets if...well, AP does it for you too. Protect pet? AP got'cha. Need more damage? AP got'cha. Like this is the essence of the discussion. Yes other people use other things. But it's such a minority of people that it's a problem.

[buoyant yew]

GS just gets killed by chained shield/ara vesta 2

[brittle token]

PvP comes is different forms though.
Area Control (Offense), Area Control (Defense), Wars (Offense), Wars (Defense), Arena, Coliseum

[buoyant yew]

and pvp has been few turn games for years

[balmy heart]

Yeah I never said it isn't. But people use different pets too and not just phoenix

[balmy heart]

Yeah that's against only two classes

All other classes gets owned by GS

[buoyant yew]

it's against two skills, not classes

[balmy heart]

And even these two get owned by same AL

[pulsar gorge]

[balmy heart]

That's how I feel when you all want a Phoenix nerf

[slim basalt]

Please make a new thread for your class balance woes and stop derailing.

This thread is about follower choice -- and not being shoehorned into using one follower for effectively all content on effectively all classes. 80%+, 90%+, some extraordinarily, obviously dominating rate.

[balmy heart]

That's what I am saying

[slim basalt]

No, it's not.

[buoyant yew]

Yes gs can do some nasty things in pvp, but that's entirely beside the point and separate pvp balance is already on NF's radar

[balmy heart]

Follower choice is good but it shouldn't be based on nerfing and destroying one pet completely

[buoyant yew]

we're not asking it to be destroyed?

[balmy heart]

Yeah you are

[cunning goblet]

technically it's just different sides of the same coin

[balmy heart]

There are 4 things that AP does.

1. DC
2. Ward Upkeep
3. Protect
4. Attack

You want everything gone

[buoyant yew]

It's not like we want literally every suggestion to be applied at once

[balmy heart]

Yeah but you want everything gone

[buoyant yew]

No?

[pulsar gorge]

People spitballing ideas
"YOU WANT EVERYTHING GONE OSIDMGOIJSDGSD"

[buoyant yew]

that's just being dishonest

[pulsar gorge]

Stop being disingenuous.

[verbal adder]

people want DC gone from AP

[balmy heart]

You didn't really read the thread from Start

[slim basalt]

Well, no. Not everyone. I suggested 7(?) things at the top of the thread and only one of them was "remove DC".

[hardy merlin]

swap DC for T.MAG2 and T.ATK2

[pulsar gorge]

Oh hey another attack on the person rather than the argument.

[balmy heart]

Lol

[pulsar gorge]

Stop being disingenuous.

[verbal adder]

i didnt say everyone

[balmy heart]

Then be ingenious and give us another solution

What do you want?

[pulsar gorge]

#1084739116807237653 message

[balmy heart]

Explain it in a way which can work.

[verbal scarab]

many of the ways suggestion can work, but exaggerating things / pointing fingers won't help you see that 😅

additionally, you can offer counter suggestions

it is an open discussion

[balmy heart]

Then what's the difference between AP and Archimedes?

[pulsar gorge]

tl;dr from my point of view, DC is the only problem I see with AP. The protect and attack? fine. Beo gets that with everything ever anyway

[brittle token]

Don't y'all forget:
Name calling, mockery, and general harassment isn't necessary or helpful in a discussion.

If you feel like you're getting frustrated. Step way. Take a break.

[pulsar gorge]

Following the suggestion, AP has the chance to give either T. ATK 3 or T. MAG 3, thus slowing down the consistency of the pet and removing the easy high defenses it gives. Given that there are multiple ways to reduce turn cost for DC now, AP's strength isn't purely in the free-turn DC it gives (although still is a major issue)

[cunning goblet]

ap will have both (like lugus)
archi only has the magic side (like deity ara)

[balmy heart]

So it would make Archimedes the choice for mages and they will never use AP again

[cunning goblet]

archi doesn't have ward turns though

[verbal adder]

then no one would use it, its inconsistent, better of giving a fix t.atk 3 since we have t.mag 3 alr

[balmy heart]

Neither will AP with that

[pulsar gorge]

Hence why I suggested regular phoenix do that

[buoyant yew]

Keeping its core identity as the deific channel bot is fine, but then it also shouldn't have good second chance/mob cleanup, and basically grant you infinite ward turns

[balmy heart]

And what's the use of AP if you can use lugus in dungeons

[cunning goblet]

lusus and embers?

[pulsar gorge]

It's a T8 pet compared to archi's t7, yeah, but it balances out the options for the classes imo

[balmy heart]

No it doesn't

[verbal adder]

i can live with that, not sure if others that sees DC as a problem can

[balmy heart]

It just removes AP from being used at all

Mages will use Archimedes

And melee users will use chimera

Or atlas

[pulsar gorge]

Then perhaps the real solution is axe Berserk, T. ATK/MAG 3, and DC from any and all pets?

[cunning goblet]

boom mage lotan

variety

[balmy heart]

Since Atlas gives a fixed Zerk which is not random and neither will they have to wait for AP to use t.att+++

[pulsar gorge]

Oh boy look at that another issue.

[shadow matrix]

I wouldn't want a dot on my non-Hightenacity characters, so, not really

[pulsar gorge]

lol

[balmy heart]

No that just mean AP is trash

[slim basalt]

@verbal adder given that you ❌'d this post which was 4 ways to keep the core id as a DC bot while stripping away extra benefits,
what do you mean by:

i can live with that, not sure if others that sees DC as a problem can

[balmy heart]

Which class are you?

[cunning goblet]

either gilga or deity

[balmy heart]

Just use omnistrike or drain

[verbal adder]

i even said this @slim basalt also stop the tag when replying

[shadow matrix]

I mainly play realm, gs, and beowulf. I don't play deity because of the lack of hight tenacity mainly

[cunning goblet]

heretics will probably care less because life siphon

[balmy heart]

Yeah, but AP will become redundant

[hardy merlin]

even if AP would get nerfed from T.all3 to T.all1, I bet my ass it would still be the dominating pet

[balmy heart]

No

[verbal adder]

i dont, lmao

[hardy merlin]

that's how strong it is as a whole

[pulsar gorge]

Yeah probably. T. All 1 is still stacking with everything else. Just a nerf to the overall stats.

[balmy heart]

It's strong because of DC, if it's lost no one will use it

[hardy merlin]

it bring so much more than just DC though

[slim basalt]

t.all^ and still solves ward turns, gives protect%, and has good attacks? Yeah probably still gets used. Certainly still great for hordes.
It would get used less in raids, especially when raids are over in like 5 turns and defenses don't matter.

[buoyant yew]

Another option could be dual wield penalty applying to blackened eyes, so people need to actually invest in celestial adorns or similar if they want to use phoenix

or aferal weapons

[balmy heart]

Well I up for removing protect, removing attacks and keep dc?

How about that?

[slim basalt]

Sounds like there's multiple ways to crack an egg.

[balmy heart]

Yeah

[pulsar gorge]

Put a cap on how much you can buff your pet act outside of Beo or Tamer spec

[balmy heart]

The core of the pet is dc.

If you remove it then it will become useless

[verbal adder]

i'd agree, but i bet a lot of people will still be using AP if thats the case, and another thread like this will be created again

[balmy heart]

That's guaranteed

[pulsar gorge]

5% if neither, 10% if Tamer, whatever % for Beo

[buoyant yew]

I had no issue with ashen when people had to actually properly invest into action rate to make use of its great strengths

[balmy heart]

It's like the skill gymir

Or aegir

[buoyant yew]

but now people just slap 4-5 blackeneds and go brrt

[hardy merlin]

A chance to give T.all 1 and a separate spell to give T.mag 2 and T.atk 2

[cunning goblet]

hey aegir is still used by mages

[balmy heart]

Gymir didn't work with HT it's useless to RS

[cunning goblet]

it's just gymir that's dead

[hexed solstice]

How about just make bird dc not give ward turn and fall off more than self casted one

[balmy heart]

Same with Dorido class, it doesn't have HT it's useless

[buoyant yew]

gymir is actually kinda neat on follower beo, follower beo just sucks

aegir is nice for mage class endless

[balmy heart]

It does fall of more without that Amity

[pulsar gorge]

Give AP Unstable Channel instead of DC

[hexed solstice]

I don't use phoenix but it's sure nice to get ward turns out of it

[hardy merlin]

what does it do?

[pulsar gorge]

No idea!

[verbal adder]

if you want ward only, theres alot of other options

[balmy heart]

It gives t.alll+

[verbal scarab]

Unstable is doubled one stat randomly, applies 50% of the time vs all DC's stats, 100% of the time

[hardy merlin]

that's like GS level of RNG

[hexed solstice]

Also i do agree that phoenix shouldn't have protect chance

[balmy heart]

Realm level of rng is the highest rng

[pulsar gorge]

Perfect! (not really)

lol

But honestly from what I've been reading, the problems started with pet act going bonkers

[balmy heart]

I agree with this

Heretic gets 4 chances because of this

[verbal adder]

as much as i hate how good gs is, i disagree with this

[verbal scarab]

fwiw phoenix was okay back when bestials/dooms were the only source of act rate via adornments

[pulsar gorge]

So imo, the best solution should be a cap on how much you can buff your pet act outside of Tamer Spec and Beo

[verbal scarab]

they have downsides, and 1% act

[balmy heart]

Well that can be discussed

I am up for that

[cunning goblet]

no matter what happens, i bet we can't even test whatever the change will be because beta doesn't have the necessary things to test

[hardy merlin]

well yeah but this kinda showed how broken this particular pet is in actuality

[verbal scarab]

I do not know how bestials/dooms were created and then, subsequently, blackened eyes were introduced not only with 2% act rate, but tons of upsides

[balmy heart]

True

[pulsar gorge]

Not without shelling out 40USD/Mo, correct

[balmy heart]

I want my Ymir Feathers and ferocious eyes

[verbal scarab]

point is, overly forgiving access to act rate spiralled things hard, but it's not the only reason the phoenixes are overtuned

[pulsar gorge]

Disgusting practice imo

[slim basalt]

I had opened the thread with... "blackened and +smartAI completely changed things, and now it's Phoenix all over".
If people are down for a blackened eye nerf I'm all for that, but somehow that seems less palatable than changing specifically Phoenix 😆

[cunning goblet]

testing the new AP in beta with your 0 blackeneds accout must be nice

[balmy heart]

Just use Chimera Boots

[verbal adder]

AP afk-ed the whole battle

[hardy merlin]

reported for afking

[verbal scarab]

yep, I think Phoenix at its core is an issue because, genuinely speaking, +act/+AI are very interesting effects. it makes a lot of otherwise god awful things actually interesting to use. currently, though, phoenix takes the stat and runs to high heavens with it

[hexed solstice]

Probably being event only and rare item
But like the nature of orna is if anything exists player grind it down to the ground

[verbal scarab]

sure, it creates a gigantic disparity between {players}, {players who have phoenix}, and {players who have phoenix + blackened eyes}

another topic 🙂

[buoyant yew]

yeah but a t10 item with follower stats and action rate beign like : fuck your base stats lmao, and then an item with just action rate giving only positive stats

is a real nutkicker for beos lol

[pulsar gorge]

Yeah I agree with this

[verbal scarab]

I think the additive nature of pet act is okay, but I also think followers as a general rule need higher act rates so pet act isn't required. neither {additive act} or {improving base act rates} are great mechanics/ideas with the current state of phoenix, though. I find that unfortunate because there are lots of interesting followers

[hexed solstice]

Tbf even if backend eyes get nerfed we can still build a respectable amount of pet act with chimera gear and bestial potions

That's what I do for towers anyway

[verbal scarab]

so yeah, forgiving +act was a mistake, but also phoenix specifically is problematic

[buoyant yew]

yeah but an armor vs 3 adorn slots is a huge difference

[verbal scarab]

and that armour has some severe opportunity costs to using it! something blackened/dark eyes and phoenix should have, but realistically.. they don't

[hexed solstice]

I agree but if i wasn't playing gilga i can trade a pant slot for some act rate if really needed

[buoyant yew]

Like I remember some realms going tamer in endless runs so they could use phoenix better, that's an actual tradeoff to unlock phoenix's potential power

[cunning goblet]

why does blackened have to have ward too

oh wait that's another topic

[buoyant yew]

I mean blackeneds are part of the reason why phoenix is so prominent now

it's a bit off tangent but not entirely another topic

[hexed solstice]

I think the closest any follower came to phoenix level would be atlas if it had some good att stat or debuff something it could compete

[cunning goblet]

lol someone says it too ^

just said it earlier too

[hexed solstice]

But compared to chimera and phoenix atlas was a novelty to get in itself Being EOD

[gleaming shore]

From my perspective its as said above, phoenix is not the problem, blackened eyes are

[verbal scarab]

it is most definitely both

[novel acorn]

Atlas is definitely a decent example of almost being as good as pheonix if it's kit was altered a little bit - either remove towerfall or have its AI choose buffs if the buffs don't exist

[hexed solstice]

The ward and protect is unnecessary though

[muted ferry]

blackend eyes broke the pet action model

[white eagle]

even at T8, the phoenix is far and away the best pet by a mile. The pale dragon (pre-nerf) was #2, but now it's at a level where there are multiple vialbe options. That said, the phoenix was still untouched, and is the #1 pet for all classes in T8, and even T9 (except for vahallan pet users).
If that doesn't count as overpowered then I don't know what to tell you. Remove DC or add some additional negative effects (stun,blind,burn) so that DC isn't a free 1-turn effect that is a 3 turn cast for players. That's much too strong.

[novel acorn]

I throw my hat into the "nerf pheonix" camp though fwiw

[hexed solstice]

Or if tower fall could cause some debuffs or something like def res down

[novel acorn]

I'd also be OK with a blackened eyes nerf. I wasn't a huge fan of them when they were introduced last year, and I still think they are too strong

[pulsar gorge]

AP's DC was a problem that got immensely amplified by another problem imo. Both are the problem, but like all multipliers together they are significantly worse than on their own.

[slim basalt]

The only reason it's less of a problem for T8/9 (despite being extraordinarily strong) is that once you have a phoenix you'll likely be T10 within a few weeks 😆

[buoyant yew]

Phoenix being this amazing follower when you invest into action rate was fine, you could also not do it and use a more convenient follower like chimera. Well maybe it didn't need the protect chance. Now largely everyone being able to get action rate at little opportunity cost makes it just universally amazing

and other followers can't compete

[azure granite]

Even if blackened eyes were lowered to 1% act rate they'd still pretty dang good, having Ward and no downsides, versus Bestials / Dooms having negative stats or negative health/mana

[verbal adder]

compared to bestials/dooms blackened is and should be better because its event locked, no matter how slightly better that is

[azure granite]

I don't disagree. That being said, even having no stats and 1% act rate would make them slightly better

[buoyant yew]

dark eyes are essentially that

action rate and some ward, that's all

why ornate blackeneds get to have 20 atk, mag, def, res and 2% ward though

💀

[shadow matrix]

Maybe diminishing return on pet action rate. It would require a new display to view the diminishing return clearly, but that might be the answer to the blackened eye being too easy to stack pet act rate?

[buoyant yew]

Big F for beos

[shadow matrix]

Yeah i think, but beo could have higher ceiling?

[gleaming shore]

Beo could have a lot of things but you know

Sry beo buff/nerf talk makes me nervous

[slim basalt]

Getting the follower to reliably do "its best thing" is like... part 1 of beo's struggles.
Part 2 is trying to scale up "its best thing" while lacking most of the gigantic multiplier scaling tools that everyone else has at their disposal.

But yes. Different thread that someone else should make ||otherwise I'll get accused of "only caring about my own class 🤡"||

[shadow matrix]

Yeah sorry it was just a baby idea, not fully grown yet

[odd patrol]

I think that the fried chickens are unbalanced vs other followers but it also feels like parts of the game are balanced around it existing? Some towers encounters are absolute nail biters if KFC doesn’t cooperate.

So on one hand I don’t think the birds are healthy for the game in the long run, but on the other hand I’m also not 100% convinced that the subtractive damage formula that allows pavane to swing from 27000 damage to 0 damage (with DC) isn’t the actual problem. Would Phoenix be less overcentralizing if DC halved incoming damage while doubling outgoing damage in pve instead of (most of the time) dropping it to 0? Maybe? I don’t know.

I am probably just acknowledging that the phoenixes are a crutch, but without them I would definitely play some classes less.

[balmy heart]

Well that's because there are no skills with high M1 value or penetration.

[buoyant yew]

There are, they're just relatively uncommon

and mostly magic for some reason

[balmy heart]

Well there are no physical skills with high penetration and that are useful for PvP

I think this is a better way to put it

[odd patrol]

~~ chained shield ~~

[balmy heart]

Well only works good with gilga

Not that good on deity or rs

[odd patrol]

let’s be real deity is a mage and rs are free kingdom orns

/s?

[balmy heart]

Yeah

Everyone can kill RS

[hardy merlin]

if it was just the blackened eyes, then all pets would become broken and therefore there would be much wider viable pet selection

[hardy merlin]

slightly 🤡

[thorn hatch]

Instead of trying to find an overcomplicated buff to replace DC on Phoenix, why not force Followers to respect the number of turns used to cast DC ?
I know I already said that, but I didn't get return on that proposition.
In my eyes, it solves 90% of problems from Phoenix.

[balmy heart]

It would make it redundant in dungeons and endless

The one place it's most used in

[balmy heart]

Apparently two

[warped kayak]

Yall fr talked about this for the entire day

[balmy heart]

We alnost at 1k comments

Let's make it soon😎

[azure granite]

to be fair, it is an entire thread dedicated to talking about it.

[thorn hatch]

That's another problem, multi-turn skills and spells should be able to be casted between floors

[azure granite]

...huh.
Would those two changes together bring piece of phoenixland?

[warped kayak]

It'd speed up my beo boss dungeon farming

[thorn hatch]

That's annoying for Beowulf/GS to not being able to use their full potential because of that

[balmy heart]

But at what cost?

[warped kayak]

Why should there be any?

[azure granite]

Pets now respect cast times for spells and skills

Multi-turn spells and skills now save their cast state between floors

[slim basalt]

The hope is that this thread ||stays on its topic!|| can last for a while, and that NF might notice the thing that everyone notices: that phoenixes are used way too much, and are way too strong compared to all other follower options.

[pulsar gorge]

Honestly killing the turn skips would be nice. Combined with the ability for turns to carry from fight to fight in gauntlets? This would actually be better imo

Not sure why that got slept on, would totally updoot that.

[warped kayak]

You'd obviously lose 1st turn the next floor, meaning a zerk can catch you lacking

[balmy heart]

I can agree with this

[balmy heart]

That's what I am saying if you need to wait for AP cast dc then it would make endless not worth it at all.

As it's about being fast and getting deeper for those extra gains

[thorn hatch]

Yep, but now it takes 3 turns, your pet can start to cast it while you already have a DC, you need to pray your buff will decay before it finishes to cast ... either it lost 3 turns for nothing

... or we can make a 3rd improvement : "recasting an already existing buff reset its timer"

[balmy heart]

Yeah, but those turns don't carry over to next floor

It starts from afresh

[burnt mantle]

ok guys, we nerfed Phoenix
what do we do next?

[thorn hatch]

Well that's why we are talking about improvements

[balmy heart]

So it won't be able to cast it ever again

[balmy heart]

Well improvements should be based on practicality too

How will they work

What will it's effect be?

[slim basalt]

yeah idk. the last time something like this happened, arisen surtr chest was nerfed and the chest slot disintegrated and nobody was able to equip armors again.

[balmy heart]

Will it be good? Or just make the pet useless?

[slim basalt]

anyway it'll be like that but for followers

[warped kayak]

Except I don't think that's have temp buffs work.
Iirc they have a 20% chance each turn to disperse?

[thorn hatch]

dunno the %

[novel acorn]

This was a thing at one point in a beta. Don't remember why it didn't make it to live though

[thorn hatch]

So long so far :

• multi-turn skills/spells should be able to be casted between floors in Dungeons

• force Followers to respect the number of turns required for skills/spells

[hardy merlin]

Just before i get accused for wanting to nerf a perfectly balanced adornment because i don't have it so i don't want others to have it

[buoyant yew]

baha stocks go down overnight

they were already in the dumps since summoner is just way better at early tiers

[thorn hatch]

Now the question is, should we help the Phoenix with his multi-turn DC ?

if Phoenix cast a DC during 3 turns and :

1. We don't have DC, so we gain +100% stats and 2 ward turns yay 🎉
2. We have DC, so we don't gain extra buffs but we gain 2 ward turns 😕

Do you think it is too punitive, or balanced ?

[balmy heart]

How about Pets take one turn less compared to players?