Melee Multi-Target Skills

[random quarry]

me too

[sterile vine]

Yea, just delete realm

[slender acorn]

shudder

[random quarry]

400 more messages and we reach the phoenix thread
LETS GO GUYS

[sterile vine]

I know! They can be DoT bots in chaos portals for this month!

[random quarry]

you're gonna play rs and you will love it!

[slender acorn]

Would actually be great if NF can comment, ie is this on the radar or is it a “melee aoe is fine move on”

Coz I think the point has been made

No point in 400 more messages if the answer is melee aoe is fine move on

[sterile vine]

Yea, at least so I can know if I need to swap classes and stop investing ALs

[slender acorn]

Like should a mod do that? Should one of us just tag dangy?

[still pagoda]

make AL applicable to all class - no more fighting among us, play whatever is meta

[sterile vine]

I think they read the threads as much as they can so they’ll comment if they deem it necessary

[slender acorn]

<@&448920498387288094> what’s the protocol here?

[random quarry]

return all our orns/materials and rework the ascension system to a general one

[loud moss]

Reset characters and cap everyone at t8

[vast acorn]

Create a comprehensive post with all the info included in a neutral tone. NF indeed watch the threads, so the less empty yammering there, the better.

[slender acorn]

Cool will do

[lapis fern]

These threads are for players to air their concerns, feedback, praise, and otherwise for topics in the current game state. we'll digest them as we can, but cannot set the precedent that we will respond to them

[sterile vine]

That’s fair. Are there any plans for dev blogs or similar content where things like this are explored? Vision for classes, what NF feels is and isn’t working, etc

[lapis fern]

Purrly definitely wants to do more devlog content at https://blog.ornarpg.com/ - it'll all be time permitting, of course

[sterile vine]

Excellent news, thanks for sharing!

[slender acorn]

I'll still summarize key points tho with the ask

and it's up to NF to respond or not, with zero expectation

because at the end of the day reading 1000 lines is a pita

[sage badge]

why you always use we when you are talking about yourself? i can farm in full orn gear horde boss quite easily, only need to use your brain instead of clickclickclick the same skill

[random quarry]

because it is an inefficient way of farming orns

i dont see in general players farming orns doing horde boss

[slender acorn]

missing out, it's much easier to accomplish than casters doing endless and dying to misses

[sage badge]

more ineficient is hard boss in keys or endless in time

[slender acorn]

or running hard boss and farming keys with alts

it's actually superior but that's off topic

you don't see it, that's your personal opinion

[sage badge]

if i can get 1M orn in 3 minutes with only 20 ascension and suboptimal orn gear ( white bogs and only legendary questing staffs) then almost everyone who has played the game a lot of time can better

and continuing with the thread, if i dont remember badly NF wanted to keep the AoEs as wizards first, sweep was added to zwey-fencer one or two days after release because people asked about it and they did to have a phisical alternative to arrow storm

( not that mage has too much,, almost permanent dance/pavane and almost dissapeared lacunus/elemental)

[sterile vine]

Thing is, after that, the endgame has evolved into an even more AoE centric cycle. Towers are AoE, horde is now a thing in normal dungeons to alleviate alt use for mat farming, etc

[sage badge]

tower is more semiaoe, you can do them quite fast with the pseudo aoe than with aoe

[random quarry]

i agree

[sterile vine]

Thing is, most melees don’t even have pseudo AoE, only gilga does

[sage badge]

and remember, warriors now have the fomorian armor ( but it needs a boost in action rate of it)

[sterile vine]

Isn’t the proc rate on that around 1% though?

[sage badge]

no, all warriors with the new armor

[violet roost]

Fomo gear shouldn't count

[sterile vine]

The new armor’s proc is super low from what I understand

[violet roost]

AoE needs to be more accessible in general due to the shift in content

[sterile vine]

90-95% of my playtime is AoE content. We could argue about that but, at the moment, any player that wants to remain competitive needs to AoE

And I don’t think forcing everyone to play heretic bard for that is the intended goal

[loud moss]

This. Fomo gear isnt good currently, and even if NF buffs it its happening so late in the event that people havent farmed it.

[violet roost]

I mean this event specifically is an utter frustration to even try to farm that I might just settle for white quality gear because I can't freaking find the bosses I want to even try. But beside that, items shouldn't be the solution to a class's problems

[viral dust]

Competetive in what? Because mats u get faster from simply buying in shops and refineries and orns in endless

[slender acorn]

Key context:
Endgame content has moved to involve much more multi-target content than before with key additions such as:

• Horde mode for boss dungeons: for T11 players, Horde Boss can be a superior way to grind orns/gold relative using boosters to Hard Boss (due to 1. key neutrality/positivity, 2. less risk of dying, and 3. lower cooldowns) and Endless (due to 1. much less time commitment
• Towers of Olympia: new endgame content where majority of encounters are multi-target
• Event farming when horde mode dungeons are involved

The ask:
Melee classes (with Gilga being a slight exception) are unable to compete with caster classes in both of these new endgame content types, and the core issue at hand is whether this disparity is working as intended or if it’s on the radar for adjustments

• T11 Boss Horde: damage on sweep is lackluster, and redline is out of the question due to status afflictions where using prevention gear would mean lost of boosters, net result = low damage from Sweep in the 15-20K range ~30 ascensions + risk of death (video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-2j5UpbWeA&lc=UgxfT2n23u-DgFa_UHN4AaABAg sorry for flippant click bait title), Deity and Gilga can fare slightly better, but the damage floor on Sweep is too low to clear floors without an order of magnitude more turns
• Towers of Olympia: do not have multi-target skill that does enough damage when encounters require instantaneous ramp up. Note this is not asking for “full screen” AoE that hits all targets. This is a big issue for Realms and melee Deities, whereas casters and Gilga have Ara Vesta 2 and Chained Shield respectively. Of note, melee classes that are not Gilga are unable to use Chained Shield effectively

@sterile vine @dapper apex @lean flint and others, is this fair?

[sterile vine]

Shops are limited by gold and I’m not sure they’re faster mat-wise. At least when compared to dungeons like DRs that can be completed in 2min and net over 100+ famed rarity mats

[slender acorn]

same for @lost creek @empty anchor @balmy fractal and other realm sadbois check summary 2 posts up

[sterile vine]

Also, any limited event that includes rare items in dungeons is immediately skewed to how fast and well you can complete horde dungeons during it

[sterile vine]

Id add this point @slender acorn . Event farming when dungeons are involved

Other than that, I think that’s the gist of it

[viral dust]

Mats are only usefil for ascensions and ull always be bottlenecked by the lowest mat u have which is why an even spread through refineries is needed anyways and in horde dungs in pretty much perfect conditions i averaged 9k mats/h meanwhile buying from shops was around 17k and the increase through quality isnt that much in refineries

And gold wise its laughable i spend less than 1trillion gold/h buying from shops which is like 5mins of endless

If not less

[sterile vine]

Famed mats are worth triple what common mats are in refineries

[lean flint]

Ability to redline better is just a side issue for horde dungeons. A stronger melee multi-target that doesnt require redline would suffice. Redlining is us trying to solve a greater issue.

You can also add multi target to pvp. For coliseum farming, if you run into a GS, there is currently no way to deal with followers. You simply have to ignore the followers and pray to RNGesus that your single target doesnt get taken by a summon

[viral dust]

Whats the spread tho in quality in horde dungs in regard to the mats dropped

[sterile vine]

If we’re talking horde t11 normals, the ortanite is legendary quality (4x refinery points vs common). I’d have to test the average drop rate per dungeon but I don’t see it being vastly inferior to shopping, with the addition that you also gain orns and gold

[viral dust]

I guess it comes down to testing and to put it in relation to orns/gold in endless + mats from shops in x time vs horde boss t11 orns/mats/gold in x time

[sterile vine]

I believe people have been trying to find alternatives to endless as well due to the time commitment involved, hence why hard boss and now horde boss are being talked about

But that’s a whole other topic

[viral dust]

Agreed i just wanted to see why aoe even is that needed in the first place

[sterile vine]

• horde dungeons (event farming probably the most important point, horde boss)
• towers (I’d argue 2-hit skills like ara vesta and chained shield are more useful here, and that’s what most players have advocated in the thread here as well)
• pvp vs GS (probably same point as towers)
  By AoE we’re not necessarily referring to full screen hit skills like Dance/Pavane, even a melee alternative to something like Ara Vesta would be very useful

I’ve advocated for Dorado to be able to use gilga skills with no penalty as an example but that still doesn’t solve the problem for the other classes

[viral dust]

Ye i do agree on the tower argument through and throigh an ara vesta alternative would be nice

[slender acorn]

cool yeah makes sense, updated

[glossy gorge]

Well, we don't die like RS, but the damage and mana is sad

[remote otter]

Oh i thought siphon ward III would compensate the mana

I'll try it out later this week

[glossy gorge]

With orn equipment it gets ridiculous so let's skip that part. Siphon Ward III is spectacular, but the damage is still mediocre, so even without using a potion you are still slow.

[lost creek]

Yes that is fair. If anything you are not being dramatic enough with the current disparity.

[slender acorn]

i'm trying to be tone neutral....

[vast acorn]

That means he isn't a llama

[slender acorn]

any chance to pin that summary? i'll also keep it updated with new / updated POVs on this topic

[vast acorn]

Ok, hope it helps

[slender acorn]

❤️

[balmy fractal]

Saw the tag, fully agree with the summary

[gleaming zinc]

@slender acorn i tried the build

and managed a 4 min horde clear as rs

with 0 AL

the only difference is that i used bulwark and no gunnr

so, same time as your deity/heretic

[sterile vine]

And all it took was losing a 1.65x boost to orn income

[gleaming zinc]

yeah so with 25 AL levels you can remove bulwark and have the same dmg

the point i'm trying to make is that melee AOE isn't trash like y'all say

[sterile vine]

Double BoGs?

[sterile vine]

Dragon aligned

That’s not double questing

[gleaming zinc]

doesnt have to be

you want fast clear, you can do it with minimal boosters loss

[slender acorn]

post your gear just so it's easier to discuss

[sterile vine]

Lmao

Minimal loss?

[gleaming zinc]

at the end

[sterile vine]

You lose one qbow and CJO

[gleaming zinc]

at your AL levels you can safely use CJO

[gleaming zinc]

gear at the end of the vid

[slender acorn]

what amity is that

yeah i see it thx

[gleaming zinc]

25% accessory

[slender acorn]

i'll try with same build and post results

[sterile vine]

So all realm needs to do is get 20 more ALs than mage and forego one or two orn boosters? And you don’t see a problem with that?

[gleaming zinc]

the problem might be that you dont have steadfast or other class thing idk

but not the AOE

[balmy fractal]

Controversial, but Zahar isn't wrong

The ceiling on the skills is the same, problem is ease with which we get there

[slender acorn]

i agree with that, it's no steadfast / ease of redlining and BECAUSE of that, the dmg in aoe isn't there

so lets assume that's "fact" for a second

solution can either be. make status easier to deal with

or boost dmg to aoe

so we don't need to redline to see decent results

[sterile vine]

How many mana pots and panaceas are used in that video? Compare that to any heretic video doing the same

[balmy fractal]

I think the real issue is the fork in the road to ease the pain

It's either

• change how statuses and redlining naturally interact. This has been talked about forever, and I don't think it is likely to change. Nor do I think it should (which we'll get to in a second)

• bump up the damage of melee AoE options. I also don't think this is ideal, as the damage itself isn't an issue when it gets rolling. It just can't get rolling in most cases

[sterile vine]

I don’t see how this is even being argued. Signet went and did a full booster run with basically no ALs with 2 different mage classes in sub 4min. The same was attempted for realm and 2 boosters had to be put aside just to make a slower run work

[balmy fractal]

So, to plug my own idea from the realmshifter celestial thread, the solution is options that aren't resurgence

If Dorado had a stat passive of literally anything other than resurgence I bet you we could get results closer to heretic/diety with full boosters

[real osprey]

also, let's not forget that mage dance is elementless so you can hit immune or resisted, which is for me the strongest point about the spell

[sterile vine]

HT would make Dorado instantly work but it’d probably make him way stronger than he should be imo. A redlining dorado produces reasonable results, the problem is how do you get to 1hp when you can’t zerk

[balmy fractal]

Agree 100%

And it then leads straight back to a single status kills you when you can't run immunities with boosters

[plush bluff]

it's the final separator, imo.

even if you get your sweep to do 9999999 damage every time, you'll hit immunes. extra turns in party content/horde drastically slow things down, and giving enemies any actions at all can lead to problems.

granted, this is a "high ascension"/first world problem. most people can't get the damage to the 1shot threshold in the first place which is where sweep/dance really really accelerate things.

[balmy fractal]

And getting rid of the status kills the passive boost, ect

[sterile vine]

Just make a new pair of boots that’s immune to everything. Problem solved

[slender acorn]

tbh i don't even give a shit about the neutral dmg, if the only thing i need to do is cast elementless and we're in business

cooool

[balmy fractal]

We've done it folks, pin this and let's move on lol

[sterile vine]

Don’t you still get immuned by physical immune?

[real osprey]

dorado passive could provide self damage resistance based on dexterity with a max of 50%, that would allow it to at least play zerk1 easily

[slender acorn]

no phys immune bosses 😄

not kosher for anything else

[gleaming zinc]

one more thing about missing steadfast, you know that dorado has status resistance with high dex right?

[sterile vine]

Cool. What warrior gear has dex?

[slender acorn]

do you know how well that works in practice?

[balmy fractal]

Doesn't matter when a single status still kills you

[sterile vine]

What thief gear with decent stats has high dex?

[slender acorn]

what BOOST gear has dex

[sterile vine]

What adorns give dex that are actually usable?

[balmy fractal]

AND that boosters have shit dex anyway

[gleaming zinc]

either look at my gear or find out yourself...

[sterile vine]

You know what boosts dex? Zerks. Shame dorado can’t use those

[sterile vine]

Yea, all that booster gear has a shit ton of dex

Not to mention dorado has -400 base dex vs base realm, which is yet another thing I don’t understand

[real osprey]

all in all dorado just looks like melee deity without deific channel but the same problem with redline

[slender acorn]

correct

and melee skills are scaled to "redline" possibilities

but redline is difficult / impossible to ramp to

[random quarry]

drama, i'm heree

[slender acorn]

zipper you should be busy with horde boss dungeons for orns

now that i showed you the way

😄

[random quarry]

never

[balmy fractal]

This thread is much less controversial than the pheonix one 😛

[real osprey]

go away you filthy blueliner

[random quarry]

i'll go there then

[plush bluff]

People are just asking for buffs here, not nerfs. So nobody has to run in, red-faced, to try and defend why power creep is a good thing for the game.

[balmy fractal]

You're doing God's work in that pheonix thread though, much respect for trying to keep it on topic

[real osprey]

"I respect your garbage opinion"

[random quarry]

i dont care about meele aoe
but if the phoenix receives a nerf, i will be very sad

[slender acorn]

@plush bluff anything to add to the pinned summary

[sterile vine]

I read like 10 messages in that Phoenix thread and immediately nop’d out

[slender acorn]

same

[balmy fractal]

Fwiw though, I don't even think pure buffs are necessary - lateral changes would work just fine

[slender acorn]

this is above my paygrade

[real osprey]

Secretly, me too because it would also nerf deity celestials massively. But I also know that it's for the greater good.

[random quarry]

no such things exists
nerfs are bad

[slender acorn]

buff melee aoe

😄

[sterile vine]

Phoenix topic is over there guys 👉

[random quarry]

look what happened to holy augment
it was thrown into oblivion

[balmy fractal]

Now that I'm thinking about it - fuxy will you try a beo hydrus T11 boss horde with melee?

[real osprey]

i blame ultima

[balmy fractal]

Sp we have another baseline to compare with. Bonus points if you do it with magic after

[slender acorn]

with full boosters tho

[random quarry]

i got this atleast

[slender acorn]

the ultima thread is also over there --->

[real osprey]

oh no, look at the crappy damages without holy augment

[slender acorn]

hilariously holy sweep would've been cool, you get enough dmg to kill most things and you had to single target immunes, that model i can get behind

[gleaming zinc]

when are you trying dorado arrowstorm?

[slender acorn]

don't have dorado unlocked because rage, will do on base realm

[real osprey]

arrowstorm over sweep ? I understand you hatin on sweep...but arrowstorm ?

[gleaming zinc]

then dont use book of dragon, use a chimera bow in off-hand

[gleaming zinc]

watch my video above

[slender acorn]

i'll give you the quad edge for free

[sterile vine]

Still not full boosters 🙂

[slender acorn]

and get myself into resurgence manually

[gleaming zinc]

still 0 AL :)

[sterile vine]

0 AL heretic does it with full boosters in less time

[slender acorn]

don't have chim bow, your choices are A) i use same gear as you with CJO, and double edge down to red line as base realm, or B) i pop a zerk shroom

[gleaming zinc]

unless you do show a video, i'm gonna base my time on signet's one

[sterile vine]

Don’t really even see what your horse is in this race. Is shortening the current power gap so scary?

[plush bluff]

Many thoughts on AoE generally, but...

Context:

• "mage should be aoe" <-> "aoe is the entire endgame" continues to cause pain re: class choice.
• The cycle should be broken by having more non-aoe in the endgame (single tower floors, fat enemies like ymirs).
• We've lived with dance for 18 months and sweep for like 9(?) months -- all-hit aoe is just absurd acceleration and cannot be denied/avoided.

The Ask:

• Something like Ara Vesta 2 for one of the realm celestials seems like a good thing. More pseudo-aoe helps with towers and summoners.
• Sweep with elemental effects is likely fine -- but there's not as many easy elemental effects. Yes this runs into immunities, but that's as good as it gets for Sweep.

idk how to "fix" running boss horde in boosters. it's just a dumpster fire.

[gleaming zinc]

shroom then

[real osprey]

not even using gunnr, what a coward

[gleaming zinc]

i'm pointing out that melee aoe is not trash

what odie does next to realm doesnt interest me

[sterile vine]

No one said it was unusable. We said the gap is massive between melee and mage AoE

[plush bluff]

I haven't bothered with it yet (too busy with Towers, chaos portals for event, gs endless for orns).
Without a questing instrument, beoH wouldn't really shine there. Actually it would be kinda crap there -- RS with no scaling at all.

[real osprey]

I watched you vid and a mage dance could have 1 shoted almost all rooms imo (mostly due to resistances and immunities)

[gleaming zinc]

so getting the same finish time with arrowstorm vs dance shows a massive gap?

[sterile vine]

30 second difference and 2 less boosters dude

How is that not massive?

CJO on its own is 1.65x

[plush bluff]

2 less boosters means like 2x less orns? more than that. so not even half as good 😅

[gleaming zinc]

you do a CJO video because you can survive

[slender acorn]

This ok? @gleaming zinc

[gleaming zinc]

perfect

[slender acorn]

And I’m trying to survive so panacea as necessary right

[sterile vine]

“Dies at floor 16” is my bet

[slender acorn]

Not play like a mage and smash 1 button

[sterile vine]

Or panaceas 20 times

[gleaming zinc]

use whatever you need ofc

[slender acorn]

Okies brb

[gleaming zinc]

or better yet, someone with dorado can try since that's better for horde imo

[slender acorn]

Bordo has it he can try after me

I’ll just shroom

[sterile vine]

Sure, I’ll try it when I get home

[real osprey]

someone tried swash bricriu ?

[sterile vine]

Raider bricriu works better than swash from my experience

[plush bluff]

I've seen it before.

And yes, Raider is better for that. 0def is too spooky when there are zerk realmshifters lurking on floors 16+.
The target number to hit is like ~300k damage (so you get a 60k split onto 5 enemies) which is difficult but not impossible to achieve.

That's also one questing down. Which isn't the biggest loss (1.88x orns in dw vs. 1.65 orns in single wield), but it is a loss.

[slender acorn]

wait did you db2

i didn't db2 hahahaha

[sterile vine]

Getting to the 300k threshold is very hard without lugus though

[gleaming zinc]

xD

i did

[slender acorn]

ok sorry

trying again

[gleaming zinc]

but didnt take damage anyway

since i used dorado :P

[slender acorn]

i just took like 280 and died 😛 at redline

BECAUSE BULWARK IS A LOT OF DEF

rage noises

[gleaming zinc]

haha

[slender acorn]

ok i'll db2

sec

[gleaming zinc]

cjo is 500 less def

[balmy fractal]

So I just ran 2 T11 horde bosses with full boosters

Didn't even get close to dying (yay AL 43 with 1500 def/res boots) but god it was miserable

[sterile vine]

Average time?

[balmy fractal]

Got a floor with 4 gilgas and wanted to yeet my phone

[balmy fractal]

Like ~5ish minutes

Having to use dragon is just painful

[real osprey]

imagine if you had, i don't know, a non-elemental aoe spell

[balmy fractal]

Would need a lot more damage if I did

Since id loose the 50% dragon alignment bonus

[gleaming zinc]

venin can be enchanted with any element :P

[sterile vine]

If you used dragon align then it’s not really full booster 😅

[balmy fractal]

I swapped after I got the buff

[sterile vine]

Yet another booster loss, cool

[balmy fractal]

To double questing

[sterile vine]

That sentence just hurt my soul

[gleaming zinc]

you're right, it doesnt have gold boost

[sterile vine]

Heading home. I’ll do some Dorado testing when I get there with similar conditions

[balmy fractal]

The loss of ward on venin is a bigger deal than anything else

[sterile vine]

1.545 vs 1.575

[slender acorn]

yay i finished 4:45

but ya the experience

wow

[gleaming zinc]

yeah on base realm it kinda sucks

[slender acorn]

uploading now

bord can do dorado

look i'm happy to be proven wrong tbh

coz it means i'd have a reason to get dorado

and do horde boss that way

and continue to rage about the lack of multi target for towers

[balmy fractal]

I'm going to make chained shield work on Dorado. Don't know how yet but I'm determined

[slender acorn]

50 more asc

it works

there, solved

[balmy fractal]

Really wishing I had a spiked greatshield right now =/

[slender acorn]

@gleaming zinc do you agree with multi target for melee in towers?

that's not a dmg thing, that's a mechanic thing

just curious re: your POV

[gleaming zinc]

yeah lol, it's the only class that didnt get a multi-target skill

(gs doesnt count)

[balmy fractal]

Pretty sure vesta with crit multipliers would work well enough on GS

Especially with a m1 of 2.5

Heck I'm pretty sure I could get it working on realm if I wanted to spend the shards

[slender acorn]

@gleaming zinc https://youtu.be/rp6UrD4SZGQ

i cast db2 before hitting record, so wanted to show gear

and then show 100% absorb

but that was the only action before record

[plush bluff]

a stacked GS with AV2 + summons killing stuff is certainly a thing. requires a lot of ascensions but you can go very fast in towers that way.

I'm just doing BeoH with AV2 + sweep (or dance, mixed att/mag so it doesn't matter either way) and that's already brutally fast. Presuming that deity/heretic with AV2 + dance does the exact same thing.

[gleaming zinc]

what a start lol

1 min petrified xD

[slender acorn]

hey i can go 10 min petrify to sandbag time if you want

[balmy fractal]

Do heretics ever loose a hard boss run to petrification? Like is that a uniquely realm problem?

[slender acorn]

oops was i petrified? i didn't see

[gleaming zinc]

nah, i doubt even a fresh t10 takes damage from t8 floors

[balmy fractal]

sadboi music intensifies

[slender acorn]

really do need a role called realm sadboi huh

[spring belfry]

Gunnr/snotra

[gleaming zinc]

odie, when are you changing sortie2 to be the same as vesta or chained shield? 😛

[spring belfry]

Be quite or he's gonna change it to be the exact same as sortie .5

[slender acorn]

Id shut up if this happened

And just eat the doo doo on horde

[sterile vine]

Don’t see why we should settle for this when other classes get both things and easier setups

[sterile vine]

I just did a signet and didn’t DB lol

Second try

5:20, dorado, full boosters, with sweep. I’ll try AS2 now

[gleaming zinc]

is this with hel/surtr boots?

i think it's a noticeable difference with the debuffs

[sterile vine]

AR boots. Only debuff I got was 1 petrify. But I can test with AHel boots

Just tried a AS2 run and died to rot though because I was trying to go fast

Sweep vid: https://www.veed.io/view/5071f010-ceb3-4f8e-8555-7aba947efc50?sharingWidget=true&panel=share

AS2 vid: https://www.veed.io/view/5044c2fc-0ef4-4b0d-b712-aaa2dcf8eabb?sharingWidget=true&panel=share

[slender acorn]

Who db’s for dungeons right?

Literally didn’t have it on bar and had to add it for video

[sterile vine]

I had to make the entire set from 0, added it and still forgot it lol

[slender acorn]

Me too

My second run I was floor 15

And realized I didn’t have it

And died casting it

The price we pay for science

[sterile vine]

Anubis hit me for like 1500 at floor 22 and I was like “wait, how did I die?” for 2 straight minutes until I realized

[gleaming zinc]

why not use a book in off-hand?
i think losing 0.3 orn/xp boost for 1.5x damage is worth it

[slender acorn]

I still think the dmg is lackluster

I’m ok using a book if the dmg was a little better tbh

Dmg lackluster and also you’re stuck in single element

Would be the 2 issues

Tbh I’ve even contemplated smelly shoes and bmk off hand

[sterile vine]

Because I was doing it under the same conditions that Signet did his heretic one. If I have to lose a qbow when I can just use full boosts with heretic I’m not gonna bother running with realm

That’s the whole point

A 46 AL realm needs the book, while a 7 AL heretic does it with full boosts

[slender acorn]

Personally, if realm is just as fast as heretic with book

I’m ok with it

[sterile vine]

That disparity right there is the point

[slender acorn]

I’ll chalk that up to ok fine realms gotta give something

[sterile vine]

I still doubt it is, don’t think I’d shave off 2min with book

[slender acorn]

3.5 min melee run

Brainless

I know, I’m saying IF

[sterile vine]

It’s also not brainless since you have to pay attention everytime you don’t one shot a floor

Or a dot gets you

[slender acorn]

Magically, melee horde is same speed but I need to use book, and yeah I don’t die from random ass status and sure I need to cast db2

Like ok fine

But you add it all up

[sterile vine]

Like, atm you have to be slower, lose a qbow and pay attention to dots. 3 downsides, no upside

While also being slower at every other piece of content

[balmy fractal]

Well, the sortie 2 dream is dead based on general chat

Melee getting a multi hit skill also looks to be unlikely

queue sadboi music

[sterile vine]

That’s all I needed to hear

Time to ascend deity it seems

[lapis fern]

Odie: I don't see sortie being a good spot for melee aoe
This thread: melee will never have aoe!

😛

[plush bluff]

It took 9 months for sweep to be added after dance/pavane.
I guess people are just betting on it being 9 months for <mystery skill> to be added after AV2/ChainedShield.

Long enough to ascend another class and enjoy the current goodies. 🙂

[balmy fractal]

if the problem we are trying to solve specifically is horde content in AoE, a few classes would argue they also have issue (especially pre-celestial-chained-skill-unlock). It's something I've mentioned solving with less horde content in towers via spicier single opponent encounters

Pretty sure that ^ is the concern. If the plan is less horde content that doesn't help current horde content at all

[lapis fern]

That's certainly directed at towers alone, and does not suggest melee aoe is out of the picture

[balmy fractal]

It doesn't promise it is in the picture either though, hence looking at it as unlikely. I know you don't like to promise or confirm anything (which I get) but the difference between your response and "We see the feedback and are currently looking into both the amount of horde content and the potential for additional multi target skills" is important

I'm just trying to avoid having realm being both slower snd comparatively worse at new content for several months, and unfortunately the precedent has been set that shouting the loudest has the best results, so here we are

[polar crescent]

Late to the discussion. No idea why people claim "we're not farming horde boss in farm gear." Maybe they personally don't but others sure are, lol. And why not? It's better than hard boss.

[gleaming zinc]

from my POV it's less efficient than doing endless

guess i've been used to one-shot easy floors so when i spend multiple turns on one i'll just do something else

[polar crescent]

Endless would be a whole different discussion since it's non horde. While the topic explicitly is multi target skills for melee.

[gleaming zinc]

you asked why not

[remote otter]

from my gilga POV its better

[gleaming zinc]

how do you prefer to farm orns?
horde boss or endless?

[remote otter]

hard horde boss atm

[gleaming zinc]

is this using sweep?

[remote otter]

no

[slender acorn]

Who’s shouting you’re shouting

[remote otter]

i spend 2mins setting up and like 7mins+ to clear

as oracle full orn gear

~4mil Orns per hhb with leg famed bog. dont really have a clue how orn endless compares but i doubt it keeps up

[slender acorn]

Can we just agree that endless, horde boss, and hard horde boss are all viable ways to farm orns

And lifestyle and play style may differ

And inefficiency to one may be efficiency to another

Like a person may not be able to sit down and do endless

And recent addition to horde boss provides a different way to farm orns

Or a person prefers to sit and grind

Endless is there

I don’t think it’s super productive to argue which is better

But not acknowledging that horde boss with boosters is viable is also a bit myopic imo

[gleaming zinc]

yeah, they're all valid
i was hoping to find someone else who doesnt wanna spend 3 turns sweeping a floor :)

[slender acorn]

But if you have a busy schedule irl or only have 4-5 mins at a time

3 turns sweeping is better than nada

Or 2 turns dancing

That’s also kind of the crux of the argument

It’s not melee caster

It’s like if you choose melee

There are certain things you cannot do

And if your irl situation doesn’t allow

Tough shit

You’re progression locked

Or at least strongly delayed

[balmy fractal]

I definitely don't. I'll keep running hard boss/endless until ascensions/gear/mechanics let me one shot every floor of horde boss

Especially with how painful it currently is as realm 😅

[slender acorn]

And that’s the inequality

[balmy fractal]

Let me try the standard server shout

[gleaming zinc]

@everyone

[slender acorn]

Bwubble can’t farm orns 5 mins at a time

Save bwubble

Go fund me incoming

As well as change dot org petition

Sorry bwubble you’re the face of this now

[balmy fractal]

"WHY AM I BEING PUNISHED FOR (insert action here). EVERYBODY JUST WANTS TO NERF (insert noun here) AND SUMMONERS ARE (insert chosen adjective here)."

Fill in as you're current mood desires

[gleaming zinc]

punished for having to redline

[balmy fractal]

Should probably pick an even more adorable profile picture then. Really bring people to the cause

[slender acorn]

Why am I being punished for walking 30 refineries back. Everyone just wants to nerf arrowstorm 2 and summoners are adorable ☺️.

said no one ever

[sterile vine]

This x1000. I fully understand not wanting to commit to something (we know how gaming communities can be with that), all I’d like to be told is if A) it’s something that’s being discussed/looked into and we should hold for further news or B) if that is not the team’s vision and we should look into other classes if horde is high on our priorities. It’s just frustrating to be deeply invested into a class and feeling that it’s trailing behind the rest, moreso when you don’t know if the team’s vision for it even aligns with what gameplay requires

[dapper apex]

this looks good. perhaps worth noting realm's lack of steadfast re: horde, though

[gleaming lion]

Wait, as far I know from all the games, lores and stories, thief class has these as choices for sub class and weapons

Assassin's : They use daggers, bows and swords. And hell they have the highest penetration, highest single damage but lack immunities and have to be careful or they can die easily but if only others can find them.

Rogue Berserkers : These guys gets stronger as they lose hp but also become immune to pain and many status debuffs and their defences also gets increased. And they also have the highest single point damage which no one can compare to. But thief stamina is less or in this case mana.

Rangers : They are the masters of being able to kill many at once in one shot. Thier favorite food? Mages. They are feared for the devastating critical hits they can do to the vital points. They don't have the highest single point damage but they are the best at massacring a whole of groups when needed. They are very fast and hard to catch as they can hide and run everywhere.

There are more variations but these are the ones I find most commonly for thief classes

And each one of them has the highest single point damage and very high penetration compared to mage.

Mages are known for flattening a warfield with bodies.

But they are weak against one-one and always need protection from a warrior

This means that for that much damage output they lose many defences and also die very fast which means no second chances.

The only ones who survive getting pierced many times are warriors with their high endurance and will to save everyone.

So they have a second chance and steadfast is understandable

And this was from lore and stories

As for orna

Mages have the highest penetration spells, they have the highest scaling in damage, highest max damage, easiest to level up, easiest to gear up(Not talking about bis gear), can do every type of content effectively, is best now in lots of content and has been best in horde mode.

Melee has only a few skills which work for them, have the least penetration, high miss chance, hard to level up, hard to gear up(even without bis gear when compared to other classes), are only really good at one content while okay in other, very bad at horde content and needs lots of prepration to even do the horde content.

[lost creek]

TLDR: just play mage classes.

[gleaming zinc]

you're downplaying realm too much

[lost creek]

Why would I have to down play it.

[gleaming zinc]

not u, sore

[lost creek]

I play it, and I take longer than AL 0 mages with full boosters to run content at AL40 with less boosters.

[ornate musk]

some ppl can attest my sweep is killer, any content in non hard mode. you can’t do sweep in *10 dungeons without boost gear.

and how is the entire end game asc farm played? t10 hard horde hera/deity removing boost gear as asc permits.

imagine getting orn with your mats

[ornate musk]

hey, just imagine having gear (yes equippable items) that had 700+ attack that brought you closer to your class passive as you progress

the mages would cry so hard if realm got that. they have two pieces that do that if i’m not mistaken

[gleaming lion]

How?

[gleaming zinc]

least penetration: sure, ultima works too well in this regard

high miss chance: this is every class that doesn't invest in dex, and riftrogue exist

hard to lvl up: wasn't realm the best in endless?

hard to gear up: thief gear has the best stats among all armors, why's it hard?

[gleaming lion]

After t10 it is

But we are talking about melee classes from t1

[gleaming lion]

Yeah but they all are event locked

[balmy fractal]

Ehhhh, I'm not sure we can say Thief gear is the best among all armor.

Rift rogue gear is leaps and miles better than almost every other Thief only piece in the game

[gleaming lion]

And again, I use rift gear I still miss a lot.

[balmy fractal]

And there is no equivalent to quetz boots or here robe for melee, nor is there an equivalent for moondust adornments

[gleaming lion]

This setup with my heretic al 12 does 300k+ damage at the end floors

I can never reach this raid gear ever with my realm 40 al

As I do that in as a carry

Realm can never carry with same setup

[gleaming lion]

Sorry 13 al

[gleaming zinc]

do i have to post the arowstorm screenshot again? xD

[gleaming lion]

Yeah

But do remove any alignment or weakness things from it

[gleaming zinc]

eh..why?

[gleaming lion]

Okay so that guy has, zerk 1, alignment and is at 1hp so 100% more stats

And still doing 300k-500k damage

You do know that's 80% more stats needed do get the same damage I get with my 13 al with minimum buffs?

If I use zerk 1 I get to 400k+ damage with my heretic

[lost creek]

Hah dragons

[gleaming lion]

And this guy need weakness and alignment to get that

[lost creek]

Now post the SS of hitting a t10 boss horde for <50k ea with that setup.

(or 0 on the immunes)

[gleaming lion]

Yeah post it on a normal horde t10 or t11 boss

[lost creek]

Or the times you died to status effects or had to pana when trying to go at half the speed as a mage carry after extra buff turns.

[gleaming lion]

Hey half speed is too fast

Try 1/3rd

[dapper apex]

hard to gear up: thief gear has the best stats among all armors, why's it hard?
no, you mean riftrogue is good, not "thief gear" as a general statement

historically thief gear has had the least practical stats across all gear options. only riftrogue exists as a competitive item, and that is a recent addition in the grand scheme of things (~6 months). for some reason dex is weighted abnormally high when designing items with few exceptions (eg. riftrogue, asurtr boots)

[gleaming zinc]

i meant the majority of thief gear

it usually has balanced stats

[balmy fractal]

Sort of

Prior to riftrogue existing most "BiS" gear was stuff everybody could use like Fey Yeti coat

There is a lot of absolutely trash Thief gear out there because of how dex is valued on items

Like Hels chest is fantastic, Hels boots and head are literally never touched ever

[gleaming zinc]

tbh, with dorado dex can be pretty important

[balmy fractal]

Sure, but the problem is actually worse now because a lot of high dex gear has little to no ward

I ranted about this is the celestial thread but dex on gear and the way it is treated has been a problem for forever. Also a tad off topic but yeah

I can have great gear with little to no dex, mediocre gear with great dex, and the rare item that somehow got the best of both worlds (hels chest)

[ornate musk]

do we know what the dodge/status immunity/recovery rates are yet with dex-dorito?

[gleaming lion]

Can be is the thing to note

The best gear which has good ward, good def/res and dex is rift gear.

And that's all.

So there's a very high dependence on just one event

[last plank]

When I mess around on realm I literally wear jolly stockings becuase I have nothing better to wear in that slot

thief shoes are rough

[gleaming lion]

Before rift gear, we didn't have much choice in thief boots at all.

[dapper apex]

no, not the majority. there are some that have respectable stats (ahel garb, as mentioned), but most of them are just straight ass. it's been a huge pain point over very many years, and only recently getting better. thief gear having balance stats is both:

1. another relatively recent thing and,
2. weird

there are outlier thief items from back in the day that had balanced stats, but it's not the norm

it's especially awful when you look at weapons. kerb/finesse weapons are some examples. the armour situation is a little better.

[ebon scarab]

The thief weapons have always been shitty compared to the other weapons until recently with drac and rift

Imho

[worthy kindle]

Not for dodge shield spike though 😅

-stop Spiked shield ignoring Dex
-some form of melee crit AoE
-general numbers review e.g. sortie 2 is like a 5% increase over sortie 1, whereas magic scythe is like 45% over prev equivalent -WHY

My first skyshard purchase will be horizontal slash 3 and riposte 2, from Gilga Ursa, as is

[real osprey]

spiked shield ignoring dex is due to endless zerk. If odie ends up balancing pvp and pve separetly, this could change.

[worthy kindle]

That's a bit of an overeach

They had issues with accuracy in a variety of areas of the game

Including PvP

But this buff was brought in as a package of buffs, and I think those other buffs were sufficient

[fleet whale]

Uhm on the note of spiked shield ignoring dex is not much of a issue if gilga didn't had that low of a dex stat
Other than endless and tower s in my experience 600+ dex is ok if spike shield gets reverted back to taking dex into consideration

Though imo it fits gilga as a tank class to have his signature skill ignore dex and scale of off ward

[urban coral]

Gilga's dex is so low that SS would always have a 40% miss chance in harder content, and you couldn't build more dex without giving up ward, making it a pretty complicated conundrum.

SS however does not ignore mystic feather.
Though that is irrelevant to dorito

[gleaming lion]

@urban coral Any idea about the balance patch news?

[urban coral]

Yes.

Not soon.

[gleaming lion]

Oh well

[urban coral]

If I had to guess (I'm not privy to any inside info), I'd say the NFxCommunity discussions might start after PAX

Since they're busy with that for now

[gleaming lion]

What's PAX?

[urban coral]

This is too far removed from the thread.

[gleaming lion]

Okay

[worthy kindle]

Very true just increase their base Dex a bit , but less us dodge SS 🦾

[remote otter]

You guys can still dodge SS with Mystic Feather tho

[languid thistle]

I think its high time melee class get something good for AOE.

[violet roost]

I think it's high time that AoE just simply be more accessible and usable in general with the large shift into horde content between towers and reg gaunts

But Melee def needs love.

[last plank]

it feels like there is some level of dev regret towards the “aoe carry meta” guiding the current state of aoe access

[plush bluff]

I mean, dance/pavane and sweep could get the bat at any time.

More pseudo-aoe instead would be great. Neighbor-targeting, overkill-splashing, 2+ randomly selected targets. Call dance/sweep ("hit all enemy" aoes strong enough to 1-shot every single floor) one big mistake and turn over a new leaf.

[last plank]

yeah I mean obviously I don’t speak from the studio it’s just an impression I get from synthesizing multiple comments from Odie

[sage badge]

"chain-skills" like chain lightning, first hit for 100% damage, second for -20/25% less until 5/4 enemies hit

[loud moss]

Would work wonders tbh, it could be spiced with elements (to add burn/para/rot/frozen) for casters, and for melee add some sort of similar skill that interacts with your weapons element.

[sage badge]

for weapon it could be called element whip or chain sword

[loud moss]

Elemental

[remote otter]

A whip weapon with innate mana and aoe effectiveness trait would be cool

[ebon scarab]

Sounds like ivys weapon of mass destruction

[worthy kindle]

Want some crit in my aoe

Realm is a crit class!

[gleaming lion]

Lol, that's too much now

[worthy kindle]

It doesn't need to be better than Ara Vesta 2 , but ideally better than equipping instrument and hybrid amity just to use Ara Vesta 2 😆

[dapper apex]

nah, realm's whole thing is crit. if there's going to be psuedo-aoe with Realmshifter as a/the primary target.. it should crit

similar to AV2 critting, even though Heretic is much more loosely a "crit class" than Realmshifter

[worthy kindle]

I think Sore probably means we ask too much relative to what we probably gonna get 😆

[dapper apex]

oh, yeah. probably true lol

[gleaming lion]

Yeah for multi hit, it should be on the same line as Ara Vesta

But for horde it would be quite op

But not at the same time unless you use corvus

[gleaming lion]

That too

😂

[worthy kindle]

Hahaha yeah not hitting everything, last a little bit of AoE with some crit spice and penetration

[gleaming lion]

Penetration is the main issue

I zero out on fricking goblins man

[sterile vine]

Skill issue

[worthy kindle]

Loll

[gleaming lion]

Yeah true

😂

[worthy kindle]

Tower goblins?

[gleaming lion]

Yes

When they use def++

Ar higher floors

[worthy kindle]

Ohh yeah

[gleaming lion]

My Realmstrikes does zero

[worthy kindle]

I stayed home via alt wayvessel today

And ran my tower while cycling.
GPS CONTENT lollll

[gleaming lion]

I don't have any motivation to play Orna today after that debuff to the shield

I didn't even do the tower I had saved yesterday

[worthy kindle]

Isn't it 2am?

[gleaming lion]

I let the clock run out

[gleaming lion]

Yeah

But tomorrow is off

[worthy kindle]

Lol

[gleaming lion]

Well the only things I don't have currently are obogs and Ornate arisen Nagamaki