Ultima

[velvet epoch]

Still very confused

[median crest]

Can I ask what gear do you raid with Ultima? 😂

[velvet epoch]

Same thing really with 2 staffs and quetz shoes

[nocturne nacelle]

You need to get better with using ultima

[velvet epoch]

Im a diety

Not a here

[real cipher]

Do we have the m1/m2 of Ultimastrikes?

[velvet epoch]

Its high

[median crest]

I'm guessing 1 of those staffs is a Celestial one, obviously

Normal deity or Ara?

Also, what pet?

[velvet epoch]

Ara and ursa

[median crest]

I saw you were using the Water align one from polly event

[velvet epoch]

Always the dragon blight pets

It doesn't matter about what you're using as long as its a fair comparison

And trust me ive done that

Still waiting for a legit case here

[median crest]

I'm trying to figure some math in here 1s

[velvet epoch]

Explain

You have yet to make a good argument for nerfing ultima but not anything else. Just ultima

[median crest]

What's your att stat with this? And with the mage gear?

[velvet epoch]

Mage and raider gear side by side

[jovial yacht]

It benefits from every multiplier in the game multiplicatively, thus leading the the impossibility for NF to had new interesting one.
Here is your argument to why nerf Ultima.

[velvet epoch]

Pretty balanced comparison dont you think?

[velvet epoch]

It is the last skill in the game for a reason

[median crest]

Oh yeah, it's just for math the number xD

[velvet epoch]

And its called 'ultima'

[jovial yacht]

@velvet epoch you spent your life in tower or what

[velvet epoch]

And i would argue that realmstrikes/chakram is still very strong in comparison

[median crest]

Can't figure out the overall just by looking at the stats

[velvet epoch]

I was sick for a week with 4 towers visible 😂😂

Is what it is

Also have a really fast diety build for towers

[jovial yacht]

being the last skill shouldn't allow it to be twice as good as anything else

[velvet epoch]

Its not. Im faster at raiding generally with realmstrikes

[jovial yacht]

PM me the build or fake (I definitely don't need a better build)

you hit damage cap with realmstrikes or what ?

[velvet epoch]

Im a diety stop asking me about meme hits lol they are dumb

Im talking solely about raid speed and effectiveness

With several options tried, realmstrikes racked up damage faster than ultima sequencer for me. As diety.

Against a raid that even had innate weakness 😂😂😂

LOL

[jovial yacht]

that doesn't look like your average Joe. Game can't be balanced only around such character.

[velvet epoch]

Thats not a point against ultima

I legit just provided a balanced test

And we are ruling it out because why?

[nocturne nacelle]

Not really that strong

Realmstrikes without buffs can be zeroed very easily

Chakram is not RS skill

[median crest]

Acording to math, with 1 elemental weakness Ultima should be dealing around x2.29 more DPS. Not counting any specs or red/bluline or pet

The buffs applied would be: att+, mag+, att++, mag++, t.att+++, t.mag+++, gunnr, snotra.

att and mag stat is 4400 btw

[stiff latch]

that sounds... wrong?

or does it

[median crest]

It's done via the hidden info calculations

[nocturne nacelle]

Okay so let's compare

[median crest]

The Ultima elemental multiplier is x2.4, meaning that without it Ultima does less dmg

[stiff latch]

yeah I realise where I went wrong

but on the other hand, Realmstrikes is (always) singleturn

[velvet epoch]

Use dragonblight on Bashe with dragon enchant realmstrikes as your next build

[nocturne nacelle]

Ultimastrikes has the same multipliers

[median crest]

can't do the numbers with Ultimastrikes sadly

[nocturne nacelle]

Yeah

And I peaked, so simply it doesn't even show the highest damage

And it's with this

I am not even using the crit adorns

[median crest]

crazy how you don't even use Celestial staffs

[nocturne nacelle]

Or celestial staff

Yeah

And I am not even high al

[velvet epoch]

You dont need to achlys works

[nocturne nacelle]

Yeah, but with celestial I can get 2.4x more

So I myself can get around 30-40mil damage with ultima

And with dc it can go even higher

No realm can come close

And ultimastrikes won't either

[median crest]

Achlys is a +40% dmg, Celestial is a x2.48

[nocturne nacelle]

But did you try Realmstrikes and ultima after 140mil damage on that same raid with weakness? You will see what I am talking about.

[jovial yacht]

if the problem start after 140 million damages, it's pretty safe to say there's no problem

[velvet epoch]

Please hold for my counter point

[velvet epoch]

First. Name a normal non other realms raid over 35m hp. @jovial yacht s point

Second. You can use ultimastrikes there

Third. Im able to hit 10-20m realmstrikes which is a one turn hit

Ultima is a 2 turn hit that caps at 10m

I can increase that cap, sure, at the price of less damage without all of the meme temp buffs aligning in one place

And even if we account for sequencer in that, ultima is (dont know exact number) lets say 30% double casted at 30% first turn. So you have a 60% chance ish to either single turn cast, double cast, or both

So single turn ultima chance 10m vs single turn 10-20m

Its a 9% chance with those numbers to single turn and double cast ultima for 20m compared to a 100% chance to 10-20m realmstrikes single turn

Are you following?

Point is, hit cap limits ultima

Unless you are Here Ara. But dont hate Ultima for where Ara is the busted one

If you want me to meme hunt with realmstrikes i will

Dont tempt me with a good time

[jovial yacht]

This is all assuming it's the same difficulty to achieve damage cap with realmstrikes and Ultima, which is not true. It's far easier and ask for less investment to deal 10M with ultima then doing it with realmstrikes. Comparing skills at their assuming damage cap is wrong.

In therm of damage per investment, Ultima is far better but as a 1 hit spell it has a "low" 10M damage cap. On the other hand you can invest way more in multihit skills like realmstrikes or ultimastrikes, without hitting the cap. Considering that, is it still good for a spell like ultima to scale so fast ? I think no.

And weren't even speak of resistances/immunities which are complitely ignored by ultima spells.

[nocturne nacelle]

Yeah and that's what I have been saying, realm is already good in raids

[nocturne nacelle]

Realm lose a lot by using ultimastrikes

And it's very dangerous

[velvet epoch]

Low investment realmstrikes can hit high too

[jovial yacht]

everyone loses a lot by using ultimastrikes, a 3 turn skill for redline classes is just dumb

[velvet epoch]

And thats fine

Im still failing to see the point

[nocturne nacelle]

No

Not with low ascension Realm

[velvet epoch]

Lol 😂

[nocturne nacelle]

A 10 al heretic with ultima is so much faster than 10 al realm

Realm catches up to Heretic with more Als.

[velvet epoch]

Im the same AL magic diety as i am AL attack diety

And im telling you attack is faster

[nocturne nacelle]

Deity is not the best raiding class

[velvet epoch]

Completely equal comparison

Not even between classes

[nocturne nacelle]

But Realm is supposed to be that

[velvet epoch]

You missed the point. Again

[nocturne nacelle]

We are comparing raiding speed

We should compare with the best classes for that

Deity gets good at higher Ascensions

[velvet epoch]

Everyone is faster than diety but you dont hear me making noise against ultima

[jovial yacht]

@velvet epoch like I said, once you reached the damage cap with ultima, other spells start to catch up, but you get to high damage really faster than everyone else.

[velvet epoch]

This point resonates, and totally understandable

[nocturne nacelle]

Because, deity is not realm and can use everything

[velvet epoch]

Realm and here dont get good at higher ascensions?

Speaking solely on damage

[nocturne nacelle]

That's why I said, realm catches up to Heretic in raiding

Here with ultima is just so fast

The only thing in which realm at same is faster than any class is Endless and that's all.

[velvet epoch]

Can I do a raw comparison with 0 buffs

On my char

With ultima

And realmstrikes

0 buffs

[nocturne nacelle]

When it comes to towers, well Realm is the last by many miles

[nocturne nacelle]

Okay

[velvet epoch]

Only buffs unique to the spec

If im raider i can use zerk 3

If im sequence we can weigh double cast into that

Sound good?

[nocturne nacelle]

Okay you can try it

[velvet epoch]

Ok

[jovial yacht]

don't hit the cap without buff

or else it won't work

also you're ignoring the usage of blight which is a massive edge for ultima when used

[velvet epoch]

No

You can blight with realmstrikes

[jovial yacht]

unreliably compared to ultima which will use any blight

[velvet epoch]

Bashe

One blight

[jovial yacht]

and you lose you faction bonus

[velvet epoch]

So

[olive plover]

@nocturne nacellethis is ultima chat, not your RS whines, for those better go to their place

[velvet epoch]

Can use bulwark

Faction bonus back

(almost)

[jovial yacht]

ultima can have faction bonus + bulwark

[velvet epoch]

Ultima having faction bonus is a default for ultima though

Nobody using ultima ever doesnt have a faction bonus

[jovial yacht]

that the problem with ultima, it has everything no matter what

[olive plover]

and ymir can give ANY blight

[velvet epoch]

So its not really a thing

Ok so hear me out

When you are weak to something

[jovial yacht]

you'll just have to pray to get the good one (which is on average, never)

[velvet epoch]

How much more damage gets hit

With a weakness

If i hit fire and you are weak to fire, what is the multiplier

[olive plover]

2 except ultima 2.4, element 6 2.5 and ymir element 7 that is 3

[jovial yacht]

then add crit multiplier and it direct to the moon 🚀

what we should look for is the amount of mag it takes to get a reliable cap with ultima, and compare it the amount of att you need to take realmstrikes to 10M

[velvet epoch]

Perfect

Dragon enchant on the weapon, so still even janky

Remove the ultima multiplier on cactus

Tell me what you see

Mind you i am barely even maxing the realmstrikes build just using what i have

Raider vs sequencer

[nocturne nacelle]

Wait you used Berserk 3

[velvet epoch]

Im raider

Its a spec

[nocturne nacelle]

And even that you got 360k

[velvet epoch]

Part of the spec

Want me to swash?

Same diff

[nocturne nacelle]

Then if the ultima dual cast then it's 2mil damage

[velvet epoch]

You cant zerk 3 as sequencer without chugging smellys like candy

Factor in the chances

Remove the element weakness multiplier

[nocturne nacelle]

Yeah, but there are many other factors with melee classes which increase their turn count

[velvet epoch]

Its not 1m. Training Cactus weak to fire its dumb

[nocturne nacelle]

I can do this with realm.

With no magic

[velvet epoch]

Missed the point again

I cant anymore

[nocturne nacelle]

And no zerk 2

[velvet epoch]

I tried

Divide 1m by 2.4, as zelgadis said

[nocturne nacelle]

Okay try with a spec which is neutral

No bonus to any build

[velvet epoch]

Thats not realistic

Mage uses sequencer

Melee uses raider/swash

Ok please hold this clearly isnt resonating

[nocturne nacelle]

Melee uses Raider/Oracle

See hof

Or Berserker if you have lots of smellies

[velvet epoch]

360k realmstrikes
420k ultima (without element multiplier)
30% chance to double cast, 30% chance to do in one turn

[jovial yacht]

sequencer is a x1.56 buff (source konq)

if you want to apply it to your numbers

[velvet epoch]

Dont need to

I used raider

Factor in specs

Raider vs sequencer

[jovial yacht]

but you are counting the raiden bonus damage and not the sequencer bonus damage here

[velvet epoch]

360k realmstrikes
655k ultima (without element multiplier) (x1.56 sequencer)
30% chance to double cast, 30% chance to do in one turn

Melee used raider
Mage used sequencer

[velvet epoch]

You mean if you apply double cast and single turn cast its effective 1.56x?

[jovial yacht]

no it's an average

[velvet epoch]

Mind you i used dragon enchant on my realmstrikes weapon so its still sub par

Yeah exactly if everything averages its 1.56x over long term

Perfect

Edited

655k ultima

360k realmstrikes

What say you

And using bulwarks element to simulate faction element

@nocturne nacelle

[jovial yacht]

I say crit augment is illegal

[velvet epoch]

Thank you

Wait as in for my tests?

Those are even tests

They are basically identical

What more do i need to prove

[distant bobcat]

I don’t think the fix to ultima is having a melee option locked behind a 200k shards purchase.

[nocturne nacelle]

This is the thing we are talking

[velvet epoch]

We are using realmstrikes here

[jovial yacht]

they're still tests with high end gear tho, this may highly differ from legit runs of average player

[nocturne nacelle]

Ultima with many multipliers becomes too big

[velvet epoch]

they are even tests of realmstrikes vs ultima

[nocturne nacelle]

They aren't even

[velvet epoch]

You dont even unlock ultima till 245

[distant bobcat]

My b I must have skipped some messages 😅

[nocturne nacelle]

You need to use no buff

[velvet epoch]

Wow

[nocturne nacelle]

Since even mages use Berserk 3 for their builds

[velvet epoch]

No they don't without smelly mushroom

Not part of the spec

Completely even comparison of skill to skill

[jovial yacht]

but they've the option to do it

[nocturne nacelle]

Since Raider doesn't give anything extra which others can't get already with smelly mushroom

[velvet epoch]

I can swash then and use smelly

So put that away

Smelly is an event consumable

[nocturne nacelle]

Swash is not a class an average realm uses

[velvet epoch]

You cant weigh that in especially if we are talking 'for low level players' which always seems to be the counter argument

[nocturne nacelle]

Most use raider and then oracle

[velvet epoch]

No zerk shrooms stop it

Class and spec vs class and spec

[nocturne nacelle]

Swash is just use case for PvP and few small raids

[real cipher]

20% atk?

[nocturne nacelle]

That's one thing

[velvet epoch]

Btw i did not even use a 2h weapon with trevs which i could have totally done

[distant bobcat]

I would also like to point out that mages have access to stead fast. When realm doesn’t. So gearing for red lining becomes paramount

[velvet epoch]

Everyone is missing this comparison

Back to the basics

[nocturne nacelle]

The main point here isn't to compare ultima with Realm

[distant bobcat]

And sequencer skips turns for multi turn casts

[nocturne nacelle]

It's to discuss the issues with ultima

[distant bobcat]

True

[velvet epoch]

360k realmstrikes
655k ultima (without element multiplier) (x1.56 sequencer)
30% chance to double cast, 30% chance to do in one turn

Melee used raider
Mage used sequencer

[nocturne nacelle]

That is it's ability to ignore all the resistances and get huge with so many multipliers available

And most important of all it's versatility to be used in every content of game.

[velvet epoch]

Skill to skill sore

[nocturne nacelle]

Yeah let's compare it

[velvet epoch]

The numbers and facts are right there

And you ignore it

[nocturne nacelle]

Realmstrikes M1=1

[velvet epoch]

Ok so no sequencer and no raider?

Want me to use seeker for both???

[nocturne nacelle]

Ultima=4
Ultima 2= 6

That's the issue

[velvet epoch]

This is a colossal waste of time man you choose to ignore everything i say

Thats not an issue

[nocturne nacelle]

And you aren't talking about the core of the issue

[distant bobcat]

Pointing out here that you don’t count misses here. Which is roughly 10% damage reduction

[velvet epoch]

Slap some assassin jewels on the offhand

[nocturne nacelle]

Which is this

[velvet epoch]

I can replace my top with riftrogue

[nocturne nacelle]

There's no other skill or spell which gets so busted

Like ultima

[distant bobcat]

That’s why I said 10 because typically you have to run one piece of rr gear

[mental tide]

Just remove ultima from the game. All the issue will be fixed….

[velvet epoch]

Realmstrikes can also use multipliers the same exact way

[velvet epoch]

And 5% innate miss chance of ultima tho

[nocturne nacelle]

No it can't

That's the issue

Since you have to factor in the problems of other classes too

[velvet epoch]

Compare a 235 realmshifter and a 235 heretic

[jovial yacht]

I am currently farming the ebon scruug from OR, it's resistant to water. I'm at a huge disadvantage because ymir feather is now useless, faction bonus is useless, I've to take elementless to debuff my weapon. Those are problems you can ignore with a ultima build.

[velvet epoch]

Now compare a 250 al 30 realm and a 250 al heretic

235 vs 235 here cant even use ultima yet but realm can use realmstrikes

250 al 30 vs 250 al 30 now theres hit cap so realmstrikes starts gaining again

Early and late, realmstrikes wins again

[nocturne nacelle]

225-235 it's GS or Beo, 235-245 is Realm and 245+ Heretic owns all the types of contents

It's literally good in everything

[nocturne nacelle]

Again

It's not about realmstrikes

[velvet epoch]

Ok so nerf ultima and keep realmstrikes???

Thats my point

[nocturne nacelle]

It's about the issue with Ultima which is

[velvet epoch]

Name the content

Raiding or pvp

Thats the only place you use ultima

[nocturne nacelle]

I ask that it should take into resistances too

Just how all the other spells do

[jovial yacht]

PvP lmao

[nocturne nacelle]

Endless

[velvet epoch]

Pvp you can legit 0 ultima

And realmstrikes

[nocturne nacelle]

No you can't

[velvet epoch]

Endless is no problem both classes can hit 400 easily

Yes you can

[nocturne nacelle]

Realmstrikes can be zeroed with just golem

[velvet epoch]

I'll prove it

First off you dont use realmstrikes in pvp

[distant bobcat]

Just a note here that it seems a bit tense. Maybe a quick break would help the discussion.

[nocturne nacelle]

You can never with ultima unless you use adorns and amity and gear for it

[velvet epoch]

I can zero ultimas but i cannot zero swash omnistrike 3 in pvp

Next comparison im done here with pvp

[nocturne nacelle]

It's because it has more M1

[distant bobcat]

Also S2iVi sorry if you feel ganged up on here. That wasn’t my intention. But I did join here so sorry about that. Hopefully we are chill 🍻

[nocturne nacelle]

But still much less than Ultima

[velvet epoch]

Oh bro your good my argument is stalwart please do shoot it down. Appreciate the contributions i was reading i promise

And its really frustrating

[distant bobcat]

For what it is worth PVP is in a bad spot

[nocturne nacelle]

Lol

[distant bobcat]

Not chill to shoot people down

I detest talking about it. Because bad pvp has been the meta for three years

[jovial yacht]

it's all fun and games until Sore start talking about RS in towers

[drowsy knot]

Can we get a brief summary of what proposals have been made, along with their pros and cons?

[velvet epoch]

Sore keeps changing the subject because i keep proving wrong

Ive done my bit

Sorry for getting heated

Cheers

[unreal hemlock]

Not much of a point discussing PvP considering that NF have stated considering a PvP/PvE split

[nocturne nacelle]

Well, I will take a pause and reiterate what I think.

1. A nerf to a class or a skill should not lead to a nerf to other class
2. A nerf should not destroy that skill or thing which leads it to become useless
3. Before there is a nerf there should be other avenues looked before taking the step.

Now as for all those who think I want ultima nerf because I am RS.
Well it's kind of not true,

The issue I have with ultima is the ability to ignore the defences, resistances and then gain so many types of multipliers which no other skill or spell can get.

[jovial yacht]

mine is rebalance ultima around elemental buffs and remove crit completely. Balancing the damage to a little less than other options because of the ease of use vs resistance/immunities. Also ultimastrikes may need the same but it's harder to use because of it being a 3turn spell on redline classes.

[nocturne nacelle]

Removing crit will make it useless.

[jovial yacht]

no.

[nocturne nacelle]

As new heretics or ultima users won't be able to get the same damage as people who use Realmstrikes or spiked shield.

[dim fulcrum]

Ara vesta is the new ultima

Does just as much pen, no elemental resistances, 1 turn KO

[nocturne nacelle]

True

[unreal hemlock]

I do believe ara vesta is also getting looked at

[velvet epoch]

@spring quarry can I summon you? You are a great voice of reason. Just want you to react to this to make a fair comparison.

Used dragon element on melee with bulwark to simulate faction bonus. Didnt even have a decent melee offhand with adorns to work with. Could be even better.

360k realmstrikes
655k ultima (divide 2.4 element multiplier) (x1.56 sequencer
30% chance to double cast, 30% chance to do in one turn)

Melee used raider
Mage used sequencer

[rapid bridge]

Reduce its elemental scaling. Crit is likely already going to be nerfed due to Promo hands likely being slapping down

[jovial yacht]

people just love their crit too much, I don't get it... why should the endgame be the critgame at all cost ?

[unreal hemlock]

How'd you reach 655k?

[velvet epoch]

The math is explained

[unreal hemlock]

oh were you not using sequencer?

[velvet epoch]

Cant work around cactus weakness

[jovial yacht]

down from the weakness then up from 1.56 sequ average

[velvet epoch]

I was but im factoring the average of sequencer procs

[unreal hemlock]

ah

[velvet epoch]

My mage build even had a slight advantage there and realmstrikes was still better

Thats the point

[jovial yacht]

I still think something's off with this test

[velvet epoch]

How so

I get that ultima can get more multipliers from element weakness but you can tactically do that with realmstrikes too

[unreal hemlock]

did you multiply realmstrikes by 0.85x to account for miss chance?

[velvet epoch]

And for what its worth, i am in favor of a 5-25% nerf on ultima element abuse. So you know where i stand

[velvet epoch]

Ultima has 5% miss chance too no?

[jovial yacht]

you dare forget about RS2 ?

[unreal hemlock]

not built in

[velvet epoch]

With two riftrogue pieces its even

[unreal hemlock]

we're comparing base skills, not celestials

[jovial yacht]

with celestial gear...

[runic hill]

if crit skills do not outperform non-crit skills on average then no one will use them other than funni number screenshots so it would kinda just be the reverse scenario

[jovial yacht]

on celestial class

[velvet epoch]

I dont see how you guys view this skewed towards the melee side

And that ultima still winning

Showed you straight numbers

[jovial yacht]

for you it's only one is better than other, but can't they be equal ?

[unreal hemlock]

you showed us very even numbers

[runic hill]

no. crit requires investing in a second stat (rate). If they are equal, crit is worse.

[jovial yacht]

isn't ultima 2 better for raiding ?

[unreal hemlock]

Ultima 2 is indeed better. It also benefits much more from the sequencer procs

I take that back, brain backfired

ultima 1 benefits more from turn shortening

[distant bobcat]

You know what is missing in that SS for ultima? You don’t a magic double up (realm strikes does with zerk)

[unreal hemlock]

ultima 2 benefits more from doublecasts

[rapid bridge]

Even wkth the atk2 though, he's no where close

[unreal hemlock]

the zerk is to simulate the average damage of sequencer

[unreal hemlock]

it is close, because ultima deals 655k damage "per two turns" and realmstrikes does so "per turn"

[jovial yacht]

and you could invest in a wider selection augments like elemental damage if you weren't locked in crit with ferocious or prometheus.

[unreal hemlock]

That being said, zerk 3 is stackable with sequencer in case of shrooms, but that's a bit of an extreme minmaxing situation

[rapid bridge]

300~k vs 655k is not close

Especially before multipliers

[velvet epoch]

You cannot include consumables

In the comparison

[runic hill]

yes essentially what I said. the situation would reverse.

[unreal hemlock]

350k damage every turn is 700k damage every two turns
Ultima deals 655k damage every two turns

[mental tide]

Are people preferring a) M1/2 nerf b) crit nerf c) elemental nerf rn?

[velvet epoch]

This

[unreal hemlock]

Currently, just math

[velvet epoch]

Thank you @unreal hemlock

[jovial yacht]

no, it needs to be balanced, not just all in one side

[dim fulcrum]

A) for me

[velvet epoch]

What are your thoughts on that comparison @unreal hemlock

As the OP

[rapid bridge]

Wat. That screenshot is around 150-160k?

[rapid bridge]

These, right?

That screenshot is around 160k damage

320k for 2 turns

[velvet epoch]

Look closer at the stack number

[unreal hemlock]

realmstrikes doesn't hit just twice :p

[distant bobcat]

My point is that: it is worth considering there isn’t a melee spec compared to sequencer. I can not spec into a double skill using spec and then stack all the modifiers to further increase the gains on that spec.

[rapid bridge]

Oh damnit.

[jovial yacht]

the test I would like to see is what you have to do to get to 10M with each build

[rapid bridge]

Discord

Lmao

Sorry guys

[unreal hemlock]

this is why you open each message individually :p

[rapid bridge]

Yeaaaaaah.

[velvet epoch]

Perfect point! My argument is that sounds like a spec problem not an ultima problem

Would you agree?

[nocturne nacelle]

Without celestial weapons and adorns Realmstrikes can't reach 10mil

Unless it's a weakness

[distant bobcat]

Another note is that the cactus has a very small defense stat so the M1 isn’t being considered. When in deep raids it is almost better to use attack button. Where ultima will still deliver millions

[velvet epoch]

Why are we talking about meme hits

Stop

[jovial yacht]

and it's all because of prometheus which is currently looked at

[nocturne nacelle]

Ultima hits for cap regularly

It's not meme hit

[mental tide]

It’s meme for rs to hit that hard. But it’s normal for ultima u see a problem?

[nocturne nacelle]

I just hit with my heretic

[jovial yacht]

10M with ultima is not a meme

[velvet epoch]

Great point, however im proving that with slightly subpar gear realmstrikes is stronger earlier in the raids and ultima can be stronger later

However you can replace the achlys on my offhand with all assassin jewels

12 assassin jewels

[mental tide]

Ultima just scales too dang hard. Any low damage comparison doesn’t fully take in to account the scaling.

[velvet epoch]

How does realmstrikes not scale the same way

[distant bobcat]

For sure a spec problem. And as much as it is hard for me to admit my point has little to do with ultima the skill

[velvet epoch]

Screenshot your best realmstrikes

Wirh same conditions

[mental tide]

Can’t use any of the elemental buffs.

[nocturne nacelle]

Compare Realmstrikes and Ultima with these buffs

Mag/att+, mag/att++, zerk 1 and 3 and snotra/gunnr, dc

[runic hill]

I mean full Achlys ultima still hits for millions

[distant bobcat]

Using unbuffed realm strikes against Polly will let you know 😅

[nocturne nacelle]

Okay

So no celestial adorn

[velvet epoch]

You can drakeblight with bashe with dragon enchant on wep

[nocturne nacelle]

With all these buffs

[opal tartan]

Tbh, same condition required both classes to have the same amount of att / mag stats.

[unreal hemlock]

Important noting that zerk 1 + 3 with ultima involves using raider spec unless you're using nagg shrooms, which aren't really used unless you're going for maximum hit memes

[jovial yacht]

then you can't use achlys

[runic hill]

oh I like this game

[mental tide]

Still be less cause can’t use other ele like achly. The thing is rs can only use 1 ele but ultima can use all

[nocturne nacelle]

Well remove zerk 3 then

[velvet epoch]

Thats not a comparison lol

[unreal hemlock]

Also important nothing that removing elemental exploitation from the equation is unfair for ultima, since it is good at exploiting any and all weaknesses, and a lot of things have weaknesses.

[runic hill]

yeah I just like any excuse to post GS realmstrikes

[velvet epoch]

But funny SS😂

[rapid bridge]

Not asking to remove it. Asking to reduce it. 2.4x to 2x

[velvet epoch]

Agree

Exploit with Bashe and dragon

[unreal hemlock]

Oh, I was just talking about removing it from the comparison.
Ultima should definitely keep exploiting elemental weaknesses, that's the entire power fantasy of the spell

[mental tide]

Don’t remove all element it just makes it octoblast 2. Reduce scaling or cap scaling. Also fine with crit nerf makes no sense it works better on hera then deity imo

[velvet epoch]

Keep the scaling the same as realmstrikes i agree, now its balanced, no?

That multiplier is legit the only thing that is busted in ultima

2.4x vs 2x

[jovial yacht]

HEY ! time to take a break. Go complain about OR rewards and come back later.

[nocturne nacelle]

Okay

I didn't even get to use anything similarly

[unreal hemlock]

can't complain about OR rewards until sunday 😔

[mental tide]

😂

[jovial yacht]

that's underestimating my french power of complaining

[velvet epoch]

Thats a class problem, not an ultima problem

Lets be very clear about what we are comparing

[nocturne nacelle]

Yeah

[rapid bridge]

Yeah. Ultimately my stance has been:

• 2.4x -> 2x elemental weakness mod
• Remove ability to benefit from specific elemental bonuses (bonus dragon damage, bonus dark/light damage, etc)
• Introduce "Deal Increased Elemental Damage" items that are generally weaker than specific bonuses that Ultima will benefit from as well.

[balmy hedge]

to be specific that's a sore loser problem, not a class problem

[nocturne nacelle]

So let me use annwan

[velvet epoch]

I would agree with only the first bullet point

Because you can still benefit from elemental bonuses with realmstrikes

[rapid bridge]

Then I would say for the whole ultima line for the latter ones. Imo skills that are a one size fits all should not be as powerful as specific scenario spells when all the cards play out

Ultima currently outperforms anything elemental

[jovial yacht]

what would be your setup then ?

[mental tide]

100% first point, for 2nd point I think a reduce boost (say only 50% or 25%) from dark, light, dragon, arcane instead of remove. Because the whole theme of ultima is use all elements.

[nocturne nacelle]

Same amount of buffs

And same blight

[rapid bridge]

Yes but if you're mixing all the elements together, adding into too much of one ingredient would mess up the recipe, no?

[unreal hemlock]

That's just a pin to the start of the thread

[nocturne nacelle]

Compare these two

[unreal hemlock]

which, mind you, is relevant because it re-iterates that the point of this discussion is to compare ultima to other spells, not skills.

[velvet epoch]

Celestial axe, dragon enchant
Bulwark
Dragon alignment book offhand
40% crit amity
Fallen sky cowl (10% crit)
New fomorian legs with positive status effect
2x lugus
Realmstrikes 2

Zerk 3 from raider
Self cast DC

[jovial yacht]

pet ?

[velvet epoch]

Bashe

[balmy hedge]

basheeeeeeeeeeee

[nocturne nacelle]

@velvet epoch I did what you asked

[velvet epoch]

We are the same bro

[nocturne nacelle]

Same buffs and debuffs

[jovial yacht]

so how do you zerk ?

[velvet epoch]

Raider

[jovial yacht]

you only miss on zerk 1 ?

[velvet epoch]

You took dragon alignment

[nocturne nacelle]

We are talking about same buffs

[velvet epoch]

Instead of zerk

[velvet epoch]

Ill deal with this in a second

[jovial yacht]

and for DC ?

you self cast ?

[velvet epoch]

You have to either way

But yes

[balmy hedge]

if you have lotan you're self casting

or skipping

[velvet epoch]

I edited the message

[balmy hedge]

pro move is obvs deity procs

[velvet epoch]

Self cast dc and zerk 3 from raider

You can use chim axe offhand instead if you want for zerk 1

But redlining easier with dragon align book

[nocturne nacelle]

@velvet epoch

Anything I should add?

[velvet epoch]

Show me builds

[velvet epoch]

How is this a fair comparison

Explain

[nocturne nacelle]

How is it not?

I used same buffs and debuffs and similar gear

Which is readily available to everyone

[stiff latch]

that's a lotta Achlys in the mage one

[unreal hemlock]

the more the merrier

[nocturne nacelle]

And every mage can use them

[balmy hedge]

similar buff = yes. similar gear = lol

[nocturne nacelle]

Those who didn't do the event they can't

[nocturne nacelle]

Similar meaning meta

[balmy hedge]

but ymir with fero is not meta for ultimastrikes...

[nocturne nacelle]

Except celestial

[unreal hemlock]

those are realmstrikes

not ultimastrikes

[nocturne nacelle]

He wanted a comparison with Realmstrikes and Ultima

[unreal hemlock]

I know.

I was telling that to signet

[balmy hedge]

oic mb CARRY ON

[nocturne nacelle]

Oh

[median crest]

It could be changed by Celestial, but the DMG change is even higher

[unreal hemlock]

Regardless, this has strayed a bit from the original intent of the post

[nocturne nacelle]

Well the mage one is already cap

[median crest]

Yeah xD

[unreal hemlock]

the post's purpose is to compare Ultima to other spells, not Skills.
Reason being that ultima invalidates usage of any other mage elemental play

[nocturne nacelle]

I know

And that's what I have been trying to do

But he keeps on comparing it to Realmstrikes

So I had to show him the difference

[velvet epoch]

I would not use that weapon as a fair comparison to that sequencer build

But thats just me

[nocturne nacelle]

Then which one?

That's the best weapon

[mental tide]

How does ultima compares to the 2nd best? (Prob ara or fey)

Can someone test?

[unreal hemlock]

This is the type of question one should be asking

[nocturne nacelle]

Best weapons for RS other than Celestial
Ymir Feathers, Arisen Nagamaki

[velvet epoch]

Maximize abuse of elemental buffs just like you did with your ultima buold

You did not here

[nocturne nacelle]

My weapon is earth enchanted the same as my faction

[velvet epoch]

Im cool with changing the subject to this discussion

[nocturne nacelle]

So I am maximising my damage

[velvet epoch]

No you are not

[nocturne nacelle]

We are comparing everything similar are we not?

And not going meme builds right.

[velvet epoch]

What about a book offhand

?

[mental tide]

Wut

[nocturne nacelle]

Then I will lose Ymir

It's 2h

[velvet epoch]

So

[jovial yacht]

dual wielding as RS, so you get 1hp and 1ward

[velvet epoch]

Depends on the weapon

[nocturne nacelle]

Why should I try to add more multipliers when we are trying to see the difference between two skill/spells

[velvet epoch]

You currently get 0 ward on that ultima build

[jovial yacht]

also, sequencer has an "hidden" buff to dualwielding right ?

[nocturne nacelle]

With same debuffs and same buffs?

[velvet epoch]

You used multipliers in your ultima build

Ut not your realm build

[jovial yacht]

but you are not sitting at 1hp

[nocturne nacelle]

Because that's what an average mage uses

Every RS who has Ymir will use Ymir

[mental tide]

? Both use blights like what u asked for so to me it seems same/fair

[velvet epoch]

Does that mean that its the best?

Because everyone uses it?

[nocturne nacelle]

Yeah

Ymir Feathers is the best RS weapon

[velvet epoch]

Sounds like realms need to go back to the drawing board

There are definitely higher damage builds

And im not gonna sit here proving things all day

[unreal hemlock]

Alright, that's enough, I kindly request that this stops being discussed

[gleaming mesa]

too bad yeti had earth def

[velvet epoch]

I agree

I will gladly stop

[nocturne nacelle]

Same with Ultima

That's the thing

[balmy hedge]

fyi: if you crank a afbc dragon + book off hand, using the same buffs with drakeblight you can crank more dmg than ymir with earth

[nocturne nacelle]

Ultima ignores resistances while no other skill or spell does it

[nocturne nacelle]

How much? 2.5x

That's still 2.5mil compared to cap+

[velvet epoch]

You used a 3 turn spell

[nocturne nacelle]

Then let's add that

[velvet epoch]

No

We are sone

Done

Please stop

[nocturne nacelle]

7mil compared to cap+

Okay

[velvet epoch]

Thank you

@unreal hemlock apologies

[balmy hedge]

can we go back to the question of what's 2nd best for mages other than ultima, i'm actually curious. i've seen stuff where rotating av is actually pretty efficient

[jovial yacht]

I think NF should just stealth nerf ultima then see what happens

[mental tide]

Oh that would be so fun

[nocturne nacelle]

I have seen Ara Vesta 2 do 11mil

[median crest]

It should be Ara vesta family or Fey element 5(?)

We should do numbers and compare it to Ultima

[balmy hedge]

so uh, here's my question, if it's also super easy to do dmg cap with ara vesta

this thread is kinda pointless? 🙂

meme screenshots aside, if multiple spells are able to hit cap

[velvet epoch]

😂

[balmy hedge]

taking about one that's the "meme-iest" of all is sorta... just talk

[velvet epoch]

Respectfully toxic and I love it

[balmy hedge]

as in, you can delete ultima from the game

and every mage will cast av2 for 5-6 mil per hit

job done

[median crest]

The thing is that we can see how the cap is increasing

Either with The new Amity or Heretic Ara

[velvet epoch]

Sounds like a class problem not skill problem then

[median crest]

We could nerf those instead of Ultima I guess what you're saying

[balmy hedge]

yeah then it seems much easier just to enforce a hard cap on dmg rather than deal with 2000 lines of is it multipliers is it crit is it elemental weakness is it elemental buffs, etc.

like, idgaf, every action cannot do more than x per turn, be done with it

2 lines of code, no worrying about unintended consequences

[unreal hemlock]

all threads are kinda pointless in a way. it's just people talking stuff.

[balmy hedge]

dude who's the depressing one now

also wdym? i thought all these are going directly into NF's dev backlog?

[unreal hemlock]

I assume that's sarcasm

[balmy hedge]

yes sorry

[unreal hemlock]

bonk

[balmy hedge]

ok but my point remains the same tho, why not just enforce hard cap

[unreal hemlock]

The point of this thread is to promote build diversity and not homogeneity

AV also suffers from the whole one click win nonsense kind of thing

and another hard cap would also not solve it

[velvet epoch]

I can think of a lot of ways to raid besides ultima. I think homogeneity is caused by the lack of barriers to entry for the ultima build.

[unreal hemlock]

since the desire is to have some skills/spells that are better at some things

and othrs that are better at other things

[balmy hedge]

so lower the hard cap? also in a world where there are viable ways to hit cap.... idk, feels like it's not a ultima thing but something common underneath that

[velvet epoch]

Ultima being a relatively easy build to create means that everyone uses it and its homogeneous

[unreal hemlock]

instead of a one-size-fits-all

[velvet epoch]

Doesnt mean its the only way to raid

[balmy hedge]

i think in a turn-based rpg unfortunately people are going to gravitate towards homogenous solutions

because that's how optimization works in turn based

[nocturne nacelle]

This is true

[balmy hedge]

you want to do x dmg in min turns

leading to a single sequence of actions that produces that outcome

[velvet epoch]

Dang I've agreed with the last 20 messages

My job is done 😂

Good talk

[nocturne nacelle]

Like how endgame Realm uses oracle for everything now

Except pvp

[balmy hedge]

this isn't real time strategy where different solution spaces can co-exist

and rock paper scissors dynamics can flourish

this is.. you have a binary decision to take an action each turn, then enemy goes, then you go

[unreal hemlock]

the thing is, it shouldn't be the same thing being used for every situation though.
It's okay for ultima to be the bread and butter "everything that has a weakness should take a lot of damage from it"
But things that specialize in one specific weakness should be better than the blanket solution

[balmy hedge]

any "alternative" way just translates to slower

[velvet epoch]

@unreal hemlock have signet and I at least illustrated that Ultima is not as insane as perceived by the masses?

[nocturne nacelle]

This

[balmy hedge]

to be fair ultima is insane (and i love it) but there are others equally insane, and people will always gravitate towards the most insane option on the table at a 100:0 rate

[unreal hemlock]

Not until you compare it to other mage spells

[velvet epoch]

We did though

[jovial yacht]

And still it a 2.4 multiplier somehow.

[unreal hemlock]

All I saw was realmstrikes

[velvet epoch]

And also, what melee spells would we compare realmstrikes to?

[unreal hemlock]

Different thread

[velvet epoch]

From a melee side with thr same logic

Using same logic

So youd agree that need more melee options too with this case?

[unreal hemlock]

Different. Thread.

[nocturne nacelle]

This

But different thread

[velvet epoch]

Im making a point @unreal hemlock that it is not -just- ultima

So it is same thread

My point comes back to the OP

[balmy hedge]

yeah so this i agree with john but the issue is this game has elements / resistances and that's kind of it for now. for truly different playstyle to emerge we'd need deeper mechanics than just that tbh

[mental tide]

Nah, I and pretty sure other melee use other other skills cause realmstrikes can’t do everything. Mage just have ultima and maybe another 1 turn spell they use.

[balmy hedge]

melee does not. again because anything else would be slower. not counting gilga because their dmg mechanics are different

[unreal hemlock]

It is just ultima because every single piece of elemental boosting gear/equipment boosts ultima as well as any relevant elemental spell.

Realmstrikes has no biased preferencial treatment in gearing choices. There is no "Boosts Sortie and Realmstrikes and nothing else" and "Boosts Beaststrikes and Realmstrikes and nothing else" equipment out there.

This is all I will say regarding realmstrikes.

[jovial yacht]

Elemental and crit

[mental tide]

I mean not just for raiding. For none raiding mages still still spam ultima as a cure-all. I use other skills besides the “main” one a lot more as melee then mage

[balmy hedge]

arisen riftrogue literally only benefits realm strikes and nothing else in terms of inherent miss rate, because nothing else melee uses has an inherent miss rate

[balmy hedge]

i don't think mages spam ultima in hard mode dungeons

[outer marlin]

ultima isn't really a cure all. In pvp and dungeons a lot of one turn spells are preferrable

[balmy hedge]

or towers

[outer marlin]

ultima sometimes in pvp but less so since ara vesta

and even before that a lot of heretics used magic 4 spells

[velvet epoch]

I get your point about ultima being boosted by all elemental boosting items

And i agreed that the weakness boost should be reduced from 2.4-2.0

But i disagree with your magic homogeneity point because it applies to melee too

And you can theoretically target boost one element with melee if you work with it

[jovial yacht]

Could even be 1.6 as it is universal weakness.

[unreal hemlock]

Then make a thread about melee homogeneity 🥹

[velvet epoch]

Im not complaining about it im counter pointing

I dont have a problem with it

This is natural in games there is always a meta

[balmy hedge]

especially in turn based games...

[outer marlin]

players will always use what works the best

followers on the other hand

[jovial yacht]

I'll have to disagree, well balanced games offer multiple paths. Here we just have crit Ultima.

[velvet epoch]

Its not the only path

As diety i raid melee and magic with multiple spells for each

@balmy hedge can confirm

Post stuff every day

[jovial yacht]

Talking about mage, you don't really have a choice.

[balmy hedge]

wait am i crazy or do some end game heretics not prefer to raid with av2 now over ultima?

[velvet epoch]

But you do

[balmy hedge]

@gleaming mesa plz, need you bro

[mental tide]

Av2 is the one that use sigil right?

[outer marlin]

all ara vesta spells use sigil

[opal tartan]

Imagine Ultima get the same treatment like Spiked Shield.

[outer marlin]

vesta 2 is the chance to hit second enemy one, idk if it also is hte highest dmg one though

there might be a better vesta spell for that

[mental tide]

I mean do they actively cast sigil too boost damage

[jovial yacht]

If only Ultima was some sort of elemental sigil spell like Ara Vesta...

[unreal hemlock]

Ara vesta was also getting looked at, mind you

since it is outperforming everything else

[balmy hedge]

see THAT i like, fix something systemic

vs. just tuning meme top end

[unreal hemlock]

it crits, it AoEs, it has no resistances, it's one turn, and the entire premise of it getting stronger with sigils is completely overlooked since it is unecessary

[jovial yacht]

Hope it doesn't get destroyed as the gameplay looks refreshing.

[balmy hedge]

legit don't care if ultima does 1 billion dmg vs. 50 mil dmg, it's dead in one shot

[unreal hemlock]

Refreshing is a very mild way of putting it

[balmy hedge]

yesssss my man Z

[mental tide]

I’m liking the idea of just removing crit from av2 and ultima more now…

[jovial yacht]

Want more of this.

[gleaming mesa]

zipper has some ss with vesta raiding i believe

[gleaming mesa]

but this is because of prom hands

[velvet epoch]

So @unreal hemlock can you resummarize the main concerns that you specifically have about ultima after all of this conversation. Just one summary of after thoughts

Because we seem to keep changing the reasons and addressing them

Very respectfully and humbly, don't intend to prod by any means🙏

I appreciate this discussion

[velvet epoch]

Also boom my original point

[gleaming mesa]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/744294189646217311/1083900027157610606/Screen_Recording_20230311_015051_Orna.mp4

[balmy hedge]

that seems chill, and viable as an alternative to ultima

[unreal hemlock]

Me, specifically?
just that Ultima is overtuned to the point where it is even the best way of raiding as a summoner, whose entire identity is detached from ultima as a whole. The fact that 3 classes have ultima as their go-to ez-fix raiding spell is concerning in my eyes.
You have Spiked Shield for gilga, Pets for beo, Realmstrikes (?) for Realm, and Ultima for everything else (not saying it's the only way to do things, mainly on deity, but it is the easiest and best way to do things)
It achieves this by having the biggest penetration of any spell, receiving multiplicative bonuses from all sources, and having a higher-than-average elemental exploitation bonus.
Mages have no way to play with elements that is better than ultima, which is a shame, because Ultima covers all elements.

But in truth, I'm mainly here to make people not go off the rails. The original point was made by fux. I don't like ultima. But I don't have a particularly strong opinion on it. It just kinda feels sad that it invalidates so much of the game.

[mental tide]

Imo av should be bis for raids without weakness. Ultima will be bis for raids with weakness. Also nerf both by at least 25%

Ooo or make it so deity would have ultima bis, hera use av and gs use bp. So no more ultima for all mages

[gleaming mesa]

nah, we need ultima for endless

[unreal hemlock]

having a celestial skill as a variety band-aid fix would be a bit funky, not to mention that sill leaves elemental play out of the question

[balmy hedge]

good summary john, just as counter points (since this is a discussion thread)

• is there really that big of a difference between mag 1 > mag 2 > snotra > dc proc > lugus proc > ULTIMA spam vs. mag 1 > mag 2 > snotra > dc proc > lugus proc > FEY SPARK V (insert any other spell name here) spam. i haven't seen suggestions for what diversity looks like in a turn-based game, keeping in mind ultima is mostly used in raids and i guess endless (dungeons / pvp heretics use different skills)
• av2 is proven to be just as compelling for raids, so there is diversity there for elemental vs. non-elemental spells. i guess if the argument is av2 is also being looked at, then ok... or that av2 is non-elemental, then ok, so back to above point, you spam fey spark v and not ultima.
• this isn't something you pointed out in your post, but any 25-30% "nerf" to ultima does nothing that's realistically different, it's still going to be the spell people use because the delta is much bigger than that vs. next best alternative

[velvet epoch]

Points received. Good summary @unreal hemlock Might have to change name of Ultima to SubUltima after nerf

[outer marlin]

Pets for beo

Good joke

[velvet epoch]

What i gather is that we want diversity for raiding with magic classes

That is the main point

And i see a good counter point

[outer marlin]

Beos best way of raiding is realmstrikes/verse 4/beast 4/ultima

[velvet epoch]

Have we seen people compare fey unstables yet?

[outer marlin]

and when I say beo I do mean base beo

not hydrus

[balmy hedge]

i just wonder why people weren't complaining about fey unstables before when that was the raiding tool du jour

[outer marlin]

player damage is so high the best way to raid as base beo is to ditch the follower

[unreal hemlock]

Regarding point 1, the variety wouldn't be in combat, it'd be out of combat. Different raids should have different approaches to them (at least in my eyes). If a raid is weak to lightning, lightning magic should be used to exploit it, and if it is weak to fire, fire magic should be used to exploit it. Currently it's just. Ultima.
... there's not much else to say on the other points, though I'd like to at least see ultima be worse than Fey [Element]

[balmy hedge]

yeah ok, that i can get behind. casters have more skill slots anyways 🙂

[unreal hemlock]

That is correct

[balmy hedge]

gotta use em for SOMETHING amirite

[unreal hemlock]

That's a lingering consequence of them having to use them for elemental play

Nowadays those that use the slots the most are the melee classes, who incidentally also have the least slots

which is a different topic altogether

[velvet epoch]

I think I would like to see people try other stuff.

My opinion on the matter is that some of the theorycrafters of the discords (heretic mainly) have found a build in Ultima that works and can be used in multiple classes in slightly different ways. And it works well enough that nobody cares to explore other options for raiding.

Right now I see a lot of people who arent showing hard number data about other spells besides ultima. There are a few people contributing that information and bringing valid alternatives to the table.

[unreal hemlock]

but a humorous one to point out

[median crest]

Regarding point 3, making a nerf in a mechanic and not simply "nerf 25-30% dmg" will decrease the power that can achieve in the future, making it not achieve that much power so quickly

[balmy hedge]

so really is the overarching issue spell diversity and not ultima specifically? but ultima is just the easiest target to point out the lack thereof?

This is the problem in picture format, no?

[distant bobcat]

Since we are talking about how to add diversity builds to mages when raiding. Why not change heratic passive from increased crit damage -> increased weakness multiplier.

Even if ultima gets gutted it could still feel nice with blights

Gives the non similar faction element a chance

Also is thematic (if that scores a point in anyone’s rubric)

[rapid bridge]

That might be largely seen as a nerf and enourage ultima play far more than it already is

[velvet epoch]

Can people please make non ultima builds and bring actual testing to the front.

Thank you zahar for sharing zippers non ultima build

Otherwise its kind of just a baseless opinion that 'ultima is the only spell'

Make it a fact

[distant bobcat]

Just because of the above issue that ultima is seen as the only spell

[median crest]

The best I can think of is just switching Souls of Achlys for more att heavy adornments, otherwise everything's the same. Shouldn't be too hard or it wouldn't change much just by using the "ultima build" for it

I can't test it since I don't have any good mag gear ready

Could use Hidden info calculator though, 1s

Acording to Hidden info, DPS with 4400 mag, the DPS of Fey element 5(with faction bonus) is of 58404. Meanwhile Ultima, without any Souls or Bulwark, it's 69091

Buffs are: mag+, mag++, t.mag+++, snotra

If we used Souls + Bulwark, the DPS of Ultima would increase to... 120909,25 with 10 Souls

dealing x2.07 times more dmg than Fey element

I don't include things like +40% crit amity or Celestials or similar since both would increase equally, or even crit in itself

What I could compare is +30% dragon/arcane/etc... dmg amity vs +20% element one

Ultima DPS would increase to 157208

Fey element DPS would be in: 70084,8

The ratio would increase form x2.07 to x2.243

[velvet epoch]

Thank you for bringing numbers and facts I really appreciate that

I really would love to see some more other stuff too like fey 5 spells/ multi 3 spells, chakram, ara veats

[median crest]

I can also do that, except with ara for the moment

I am doing a mage alt atm, so it will actually help me in the meantime

[velvet epoch]

If ultima is the best in the end then I am more than happy to use it. Sign me up for quicker raids. Would never vote against that

[real cipher]

as it should

[median crest]

Multi element 3(with element bonus) dps is 79797!!! It's actually better in raw than Ultima without souls or Bulwark or crit!

Sadly, It cannot crit, so the 40% amity is out of question and with Heretic the dps compared to Fey element is 79797 (multi 3) vs 146010 (Fey) DPS

Without Heretic it's 79797 vs 116808 without amities, making it a big loss for Multi element 3 vs Fey

Can't check other spells since Hidden info is Outdated

[velvet epoch]

And with multi 3 you can use water book offhand

[median crest]

It would still be less than Sequencer spec

[velvet epoch]

With both i suppose you can use chim staff offhand though

For sure but not an unviable alternative

[median crest]

Sequencer dps is x1.54/1.56 (not sure which one is still yet), so it's better than the x1.5 that Book gives

[outer marlin]

sequencer isn't x1.56 for single turn skills

[median crest]

That's true, I forgot about that

[outer marlin]

can't turnskip a single turn move

[median crest]

That way chim staff off-hand would still work

And leave spec to Berserker or smth, being negated by another one of those

[velvet epoch]

Sequencer is meant for multi turn spells

How many of those exist

Not many

There's the diversity issue

Try heretic berserker with a single turn spell

1.25*1.5

[median crest]

Heretic berserker gives actually more dps that sequencer

[velvet epoch]

Yep

[median crest]

with single and multi turns

[velvet epoch]

Boom. Diversity

[median crest]

That reminds me, the calculations before are against a 100% hp morrigan, I could do the same for a 1% one to see the def/res change how it affects it

[outer marlin]

I quite like beoH's diversity at the moment. Sure for raw damage nothign beats achlys soul bulwark blight follower ultima. But I can use verse IV, realmstrikes, ultima all pretty well.

[median crest]

Actually, I won't do that, there's no need for calculations, Multi element 3 dps is 0 and Fey element 5 goes from 58404 to 26712

Ultima is from 69091 to 52584

[velvet epoch]

@median crest killing it with facts

My man

[median crest]

xDD

[median crest]

I think this shows the power of such a high pen spell

[mental tide]

Ultima 2x above fey and doing better when facing higher res seems way too bust. Should be 1.5x better max

[velvet epoch]

Looking forward to this fuximus post

[spring quarry]

Looks like the conversation turned around, finally. Talking about how Ultima compares to other spells is exactly what's in the OP.
Not necessarily comparing it to melee (though in a grand sense, melee and mage should probably be in the same damage ballpark, which they are).
Not necessarily bringing up class war/suggesting that entire classes hinge on the existence of one spell.

Looking at things like:

• Ultima 1
• Ultima 2
• Ara Vesta
• Fey Unstables
• Elem6s / FeyElem5s
• MultiElem3s
• Magic Chakram
• Magic Weaponry (all other kinds; strikes4, dagger4, etc.)
• Verse4

... and thinking about things like: "What new skills can NF add? What new passive/gear effects can NF add? How is it possible to change things such that different spells have different uses in different scenarios?"

Happy to let Nicotres continue, but in like 95% of cases, Ultima is what you want -- for raiding.

[stiff latch]

I think my ideal would be for the Unstables to be the main Heretic damage-per-turn spell. Possibly matched with Sigiled-up Vestas

[median crest]

Against Morrigan at 1% hp, the ratio dmg ratio from before to after of Ultima is x1.314, meanwhile the one from Fey element is almost x2. Absolutely nuts

[velvet epoch]

I would love to see chakram and ara vesta

Zahar showed zipper with ara vesta on morri and it shredded

That seems like a viable alternative

[spring quarry]

Pre-Bulwark/Achlys, pre-elemblights, Ultima was good but not always best. FeyUnstables were more damage on a 3turn charge, or you could spam feyelems for a 1-turn spam skill especially if the enemy had a weakness.

The worst part is: Bulwark and Achlys are cool. It's awesome that NF is adding items like that... but they can't keep adding items like that because each one is a giant Ultima multiplier. That's the problem 😅

[gleaming mesa]

it;'s not like you have infinite item/adorn slots to boost ultima's damage with every update

[median crest]

Well, considering that you still have a spare helmet slot and accessories... 🤔

I'm joking

[spring quarry]

I kinda wish there was a way to give Ultima "elemental gear effectiveness".

Like, equipping something or using some battle buff that doubles your dark damage should be used... primarily for dark damage skills/spells.
It could/should boost Ultima, but perhaps not the full amount of 2x.

---

This kinda goes back to a question I had asked a long while back and for which there was a split opinion... restating here:

Against a fire-weak opponent, which should do more damage?

• Ultima
• Fey Inferno or Flame6 or some other fire spell

Not everybody agrees (and in fact, it's quite split). There's also a strong opinion that "it's the last skill you learn, ergo it should be the best".

[rapid bridge]

Inferno/flame

[median crest]

Ultima should be like in my opinion the: "I've already achieved everything, so I can do anything, even if it's less effective"

[rapid bridge]

Ultima should be above average but consistent.
Fey Element/Element 6 should be strong but not as consistent

[median crest]

So inferno/Flame should deal more dmg imo, are they are focused towards something

[velvet epoch]

Agree 100% i think the concept is super cool. Maybe bulwark should be 10% or something, and just alternative elements are tossed in to play with actual element spells. Luckily there are limits to gear slots and adorn slots and we are kind of close to that limit

One thing i would love to see is more use of dark/light/arcane/dragon spells. Achlys has a huge boost to dark and light but there currently is no viable spell there to make use

[spring quarry]

NF keeps teasing Casted Shadows as a strong dark spell but won't quite let players use it. 😛

Some followers have it, some summons have it. I've died to it from enemies in the past. It has interesting/custom mechanics.

[median crest]

Surprisingly, I still have yet to learn how Casted Shadows works, is it only t.status or things like att-/mag- or such affect, and by how much? There are a lot of questions regarding that

[outer marlin]

From what I could tell, any debuff increases its damage

it's hard to test though cause the damage range is quite high and statuses drop off all the time

[spring quarry]

I know a bit more than that 😅 It's not every debuff, it's every buff+debuff. Every in-battle effect, on all entities (all players/summons and all enemies).

[velvet epoch]

In addition to this, i thought Algovale was a dope concept for a weapon and would really love to see a similar weapon that is far more viable to obtain be tested with arcane attacks

[rapid bridge]

I would absolutely use Algovale if it wasn't another fucking onc farm.

Arcane would be amazing to play with for Arcane Trolls on GS. And I can think of some ideas for deity

[velvet epoch]

Also one more thing

@median crest can you run those fey unstables again with heretics robe instead of bulwark if you didnt already?

[median crest]

Sure, what would be the mag change?

at 200% the mag from it is 847,so does a 800 mag increase sounds reasonable? 4 slots vs 6

[spring quarry]

I was going to say +800. +700 is a safer bet

[median crest]

800 difference is okey for me, 1s i'll do math

[velvet epoch]

800 is reasonable

[spring quarry]

Hererobe should end up being a little more damage. But also, that's with some pretty drastic downsides (no def, no ward, mana loss) whereas Bulwark is considerably tanky armor with good def/res/ward. 🤷‍♂️

[velvet epoch]

Can still one shot though

Dont need defense

[median crest]

Fey element 5 DPS is: 71904

Ultima DPS is: 83153

Multi element 3 DPS is: 105108

Ultima is still ahead of Fey element even in base dmg (with buffs applied). Ultima and Fey still can get the x2 dmg from crit rendering essentially Multi element 3 sub-optimal for even 100% hp Morrigan

For 1% hp morri, dps is the following:

Fey element 5: 40212

Ultima: 66647

Multi element: 0

[velvet epoch]

What about fey unstable

Also add in weapon adorns. You can use heretic jewels in place of achlys for defenses.

[median crest]

I don't know the stats of it

[velvet epoch]

Or you can use ones that actually give magic

Fey glacier

For instance

And is that fey element 5 includinf crit?

[median crest]

Heretic Jewels decrease defense, making Multi element 3 having room to breathe but still making it sub-optimal compared to high m1 skills that already have it since they can also crit

The Ultima dps/ Fey element dps is without any elemental multipliers or crit

With crit it increases by x2 on a non-heretic class and x2.5 on Heretic

[velvet epoch]

Res double down is 80% resist drop thats enormous

It is definitely enough

From experience with using assassin jewels and warrior pavane

[median crest]

Yes, but it would also work for Fey element or even Ultima, since the DPS is without any adornments or similar

[velvet epoch]

Ultima you included achlys

So you should adorn appropriately for the other builds

Thats all im trying to point out to make comparison more even

[nocturne nacelle]

Don't Fey unstables have the highest M2 value?

[median crest]

Multi element with high mag is x1.26 compared to the x1,55

With high enough mag Multi element would become better than Ultima, buuuuuut you would need WAY TOO MUCH mag for it to happen

[median crest]

I didn't

[nocturne nacelle]

I was able to do 13.5mil damage with Fey earth spell before cap was introduced

[median crest]

I did it afterwards to compare it to Fey with buffs

[velvet epoch]

I can put up a turn 1 comparison right now

Please hold

[median crest]

Without buffs Ultima should be stronger since m1 is higher, gonna check here

14783 Ultima, 18684 Multi, 12782 Fey

Ultima can crit + can have more modifiers (aka souls, bulwark), making it at the end better, leaving multi behind

[nocturne nacelle]

What's the M1 value of multi?

[median crest]

1

Fey 5 is 2

Ultima is 4

[velvet epoch]

I hit the same

Per turn that is

[median crest]

Numbers are really close, that's why

[velvet epoch]

Turn 1 no buffs 500k ultima

[median crest]

Ohh, with modifiers

[velvet epoch]

Turn 1 no buffs switched to heretic robe and hit 750k fey unstable

[median crest]

With low mag (aka no buffs), hererobe is better than bulwark

Can you switch and try?

[velvet epoch]

Switch to here robe for ultima?

[median crest]

Yeah

[velvet epoch]

Ok

540k

[median crest]

540 hit or dps?

[velvet epoch]

Hit

So if fey unstable was 250k per turn

Ultima was 270k per turn

[median crest]

against cactus?

[velvet epoch]

No i have like 10 fey dragons at my base

Running out to test on 😅

[median crest]

Their defense is way lower then, it makes sense why Fey is doing more dmg

[velvet epoch]

Its not though

Ultima won

[nocturne nacelle]

Do you want few moondrops?

[velvet epoch]

I would like to try multi 3 with some other stuff too

Na all g thanks tho

[nocturne nacelle]

I can give those for these tests

[median crest]

Ohh, I thought you were talking about Fey element instead of unstable, I don't have numbers for it xD

[velvet epoch]

Like what would be a fair comparison gear wise if i switched to multi 3? Im thinking book offhand

[median crest]

Turn 1 comparison would be best, max mag would be optimal

[velvet epoch]

Also i was using a celestial wep with crit there so may need to redo

[velvet epoch]

Appreciate that will let u know if we need

[nocturne nacelle]

Sure

[velvet epoch]

But we are talking raw raid viability right?

So other factors should be considered

[median crest]

Sure, feel free to do it then

[velvet epoch]

Using multi 3 i would run berserker with book offhand and phoenix probably

I can always just test without the multipliers and we can add them as needed

[median crest]

That's exactly what I mean, even though stats matter for a 1 m1 skill more than a high m1 skill

So you can use multiplier and tone them down

[velvet epoch]

Ill have to compare with all non celestials lol

Sec

[median crest]

I have to go in 4 minutes though, I can do them in an hour and a half or so

[velvet epoch]

This might be a deeper dive for another time with specific gear sets

More in the lines of theorycrafting to prove/disprove theory that ultima is only option

[median crest]

According to math, a 800 mag difference brings the ratio of pre modifier Ultima from 1.15 to x1.26, essentially, for it to be equal to Ultima in ONLY the crit aspect, we would need to raise that ratio to X2/2.5

[mental tide]

In scenario where a raid has a base element weakness. Imo fey > ultima. Ultima would be better for the other 4 weakness.

[median crest]

I could do the math needed to see the mag needed to make that ratio to up

[distant bobcat]

In summary are we taking about how

Rn: Ultima has high floor and ceiling, fey unstables have low floor high ceiling.

And a potential change to be:
Ultima high floor Medium ceiling. Unstables low floor Higher ceiling.

Cause if so I think that is really neat!

[median crest]

Multi element also has lower floor + lower cealing with crit

[median crest]

I think you would need around 8253 mag for it to be compared to only the crit aspect of Ultima, no multiplier such Heretic or Amitiy

[median crest]

Oh and you need 10316 mag for it to be equal to Ultima with Heretic without Amity or elemental modifiers

[willow cobalt]

oh wow ppl are actually doing tests? 👀
i want to join in

in my personal experience and tests, Aquila Sigil+Ara Vesta has higher damage pet turn then Ultima
but i may be wrong

also you need to use a different spec for each aproach
and a different weapon
and chest piece

this is my Ultima Build, Heretic Ara Sequencer(nuke)(missing 3 ashen pinions i know, living dangerous)

this is an alternative build
another one would be Celestial Staff with a second staff like Staff of the Chimera or Arisen Kaladanda/Arisen Imagination with 2% act rate adornments and phoenix(i know, we have a problem with 2% act adornments and phoenix too )
also lugus gauntlets and fixing the crit here and there
this build is safer and more reliable

[median crest]

Do you know what's the M1 & M2 of Ara vesta? I could do some math with it, otherwise I can't do much

[pale oasis]

Ara Vesta 1: M1=2.5, M2=1 + sigil_count
Ara Vesta 2: M1=2.5, M2=1 + sigil_count, hits 2 enemies
Ara Vesta 3: M1=2.9, M2=1 + sigil_count, 2 turns
Ara Vesta 4: M1=3.5, M2=1 + sigil_count, 3 turns
Ara Vestaga: M1=5.0, M2=1 + sigil_count, 4 turns
Ara Vestala: M1=2.5, M2=sigil_count

Magic Thinblade: M1=2.2, M2=1.0
Magic Chakram: M1=1.0, M2=3.75

[velvet epoch]

In your opinion, are there other very acceptable and strong ways to raid than ultima?

Sounds like Ara Vesta, but anything else?

[lusty wasp]

Ara Vesta II is very strong on pvp defense

[velvet epoch]

But for raid

[balmy hedge]

Finally some fucking numbers in this thread 💪

Tbh I really think av2 for raids is easier to control and better output

Easier to control because it’s a 1 turn spell, better output as you’re less reliant on rng (procs falling off mid cast)

And you can raid with like 50-80k ward

[willow cobalt]

Fey Unstables
but it's tricky since it is a 3 turn spell and quickcast becomes a bit less inefficient

any raiding method then Ultima, requires a trade between power and defence
Ultima can go with bulwark and have defence and a bit of power
you get more power with Heretic's Robe but your chances to survive are becoming 🤏

and harder mana management

or go with a defensive chest piece and spend more time in the fight (you will see how it feels to raid like any other class )

the inefficiency of Sequencer passive Quickcast becomes visible between Ultima I and Ultima II
casting 2 Ultima I's in 2 turns outdamages Ultima II casted in 2 turns
Also you get more chances for Life Syphon to proc(more hp, more survivability and less turns draining)
And more chances to proc that lugus gauntlet, that zerk from staff of the chimera or arisen imagination

so yeah, if Ultima disappears overnight we will have other options
risky and fast options or slower and safer options

ofc it's not fair for us to finish a raid in a few seconds
but slowing us down wont help other classes
instead is a nerf for all users of ultima like gs, deities and maybe beo if this is a thing there

[spring quarry]

Of course gs, deity, and beo use Ultima. 😅 It's not about class balance, believe it or not.

The good news is that NF has never indicated that they want to remove the skill, so it will still be a thing even after their changes.

[modest sable]

Believe it or not, some people dont care if they get nerfed if it means the game is more balanced that way

[spring quarry]

How much is the AV boost from Heretic Ara (class passive)? Can AV compete with Ultima without that class passive?

I'm fine with it being a HAra special thing, or most efficient on HAra.

[modest sable]

Like 15% I think?

[willow cobalt]

something like that

notice that Heretic Ara has archistaff profficiency
and the best strat for it is oracle
also if you have the celestial archistaff, you wont get the profficiency from it since it is bugged(i made a report about it but it was in the old channel, we were assured they wont forget about those but it is almost 1 month since then)

[median crest]

Later I'll do the math for ara vesta & Chakram, just woke up

[median crest]

Okey, I'll compare Ultima to Ara Vesta 1

Without sigils, and the buffs that I've been using before, the DPS of Ara vesta is: 64139

DPS of Ultima is 69091

With a sigil that has to be re-used, the DPS lowers to 48104

But with Aquila, obviously the number is different. If it stays for 5 turns, the DPS would be...

80173 DPS, better than Ultima

Buut, Ultima still has elemental multipliers

They both have access to the same Spec, and mag, but Ultima can make use of Achlys souls to boost the DPS by 40%

Bringing up the DPS of Ultima to 96727,4

Using a Hererobe instead of Bulwark would give Ara Vesta a unnoticeable DPS buff, since Ultima could also do it

Against lower defense enemies, Ara Vesta can perform better than Ultima, since also being able to crit and having M2.

But against higher defense enemies, Ara vesta Falls somewhat apart, going from 80173 DPS with 5 turn Aquila to 47161.6667 dps, when Ultima has 52584 DPS

Ara Vesta 2 is literally the same as Ara Vesta 1, but hitting more enemies

Ara Vesta 3 & 4 might (won't test it for now since it seems useless) only be better against VERY HIGH defense enemies, same for vestaga, doesn't matter much imo

[median crest]

In terms of DPS, best spec is Berserker, so we do not too much work there. Sequencer only matters if you don't want Berserkers, but we're doing numbers, so the less operations the better

For Chakram, DPS is 42115, meaning it's like Multi element 3, but better since it can crit (it can, right?). DPS is 0 against higher def enemies, as all 1 M1 Spells

Thin blade is a Worse Ara Vesta

That means, best options for Raiding are:

1. Ultima
2. Ara Vesta
3. Fey element 5
4. Magic Chakram
5. Multi element 3

I don't include here things like Magic Thinblade since it's a worse version of non-sigil Ara Vesta.

[modest sable]

No fey unstable?

I also wonder how blood pact compares to the options on that list

Probably worse than ultima but for sure better than fey elem 5