EvalynOS

[hazy saddle]

Aswell funny thing

I also tried an old kernel build

It just fucking died

💀

The docs also say this

But the docs are fucking ass

And its hard to tell if it applies to only the page

Or only the MSR?

Clanker says it applies to both and it seems to work so

💀

@wraith star https://github.com/EvalynGoemer/evalynOS

Here you go

Il be pushing my changes after I sleep

But I did end up managing to confirm the hyperv shit 😭

[hazy saddle]

https://github.com/EvalynGoemer/evalynOS/commit/cfa14dc4fdb5a91ab24326947b343dec7d4c94ce
https://github.com/EvalynGoemer/evalynOS/commit/db95130a87a71acc62d1405c52253c27925e8607

done

i should sleep soon

tomorrow may be another break day

But I'm probably going to implement x86 scheduling

I am really considering getting a buddy allocator at some point too

That would be nice for certain things

[magic saffron]

what do you mean by x86 scheduling? (after you have slept)

[hazy saddle]

the schedular + x86 context switch functions && related helpers

[hazy saddle]

i wonder if i should consider 32 bit support

i can use recursive page tables on 32bit platforms

which would help a good bit

[wide mica]

in fact you should use them on 64-bit 😎

[hazy saddle]

though riscv cant support them sadly

id probally hide the fact paging is recurrsive from the arch generic parts

eg virt -> phys

[wide mica]

there's probably a trick to emulate them

[hazy saddle]

il still probally still only do i686 systems with apic/ioapic though

[clear bison]

You'll have to do MP tables parsing

Which is pretty easy tbf

[wide mica]

I wouldn't do 32-bit x86 idk

there are other funnier arches

[clear bison]

Yeah do AVR

[wide mica]

avr isnt even real

isn't it harvard

[clear bison]

Wdym it isn't real

[young hamlet]

avr is horrific

[wide mica]

not von neumann = not real

[clear bison]

[young hamlet]

https://godbolt.org/z/qE7583d31

[wide mica]

quick reminder that von neumann is goated

actual extreme genius

[wide mica]

holy shit

[young hamlet]

bare in mind, this isa is being used on cpus in microcontrollers

[clear bison]

Well you're using u64's in a weird 8/16-bit crap

That's what you get

[wide mica]

why do they even use AVR btw

[clear bison]

[wide mica]

why not ARM

or risc-v

risc-v has very stripped down sets

[young hamlet]

because they wanna sell you bullshit that makes them as much money as possible

[clear bison]

Probably because at the time it was probably cheaper to use that

[clear bison]

Did risc-v even exist when avr started being a thing lol?

[wide mica]

probably not

but like

use anything else

[young hamlet]

u had mips

[wide mica]

rip MIPS u were awesome

now they replaced it with stupid RISC-V

loongarch is what risc-v should've been

[clear bison]

Is that really suited for shitty microcontrollers

[young hamlet]

why do people here like loongarch so much

[wide mica]

https://klipy.com/gifs/chinese-maoist

[young hamlet]

like ive never seen anyone speak so fondly of loongarch aside from this discord server

[wide mica]

it's nice to work with

[young hamlet]

fuck it man why not

[clear bison]

I know there are very stripped down MIPS variants but like

[young hamlet]

in what way

[wide mica]

it's like risc-v but not made by idiots

[clear bison]

It's like risc-v but actually well done

[young hamlet]

it just looks like mips to me

[wide mica]

yeah

it is mips

[young hamlet]

the dmw thing just looks like kseg on steroids

[wide mica]

risc-v aimed to be the "new MIPS" but loongarch did that way better

[clear bison]

What if you make loongarch short

Does it turn into shrtarch

[young hamlet]

imo, all these ISAs try to do basically the same shit but are driven mainly by what infrastructure they have

people will use something if everyone else uses it

[clear bison]

I wonder what ISA are supercomputers using nowadays

Probably x86

Or maybe ARM

[wide mica]

powerpc

[young hamlet]

IBM are still going strong in banking systems and shit

[wide mica]

yeah

ah it's called Power now

there's still a supercomputer running it

[young hamlet]

https://www.qemu.org/docs/master/system/ppc/pseries.html
https://openpowerfoundation.org/specifications/linuxonpower/
https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/ibm-power-virtualization-best-practices-guide
https://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redpapers/pdfs/redp4194.pdf
https://files.openpower.foundation/s/ZmtZyCGiJ2oJHim
https://wiki.raptorcs.com/w/images/f/f5/PowerISA_public.v3.1.pdf

[hazy saddle]

Atleast it's easy to test with and I actually have some working i686 hardware in a small laptop

[wide mica]

it's both

also risc-v if you count gpus

[clear bison]

Are GPUs risc-v???

[wide mica]

yeah

nvidia chips are risc-v

[clear bison]

Huh

Weren't they some custom arch

[wide mica]

why do that when you can use risc-v for free

[clear bison]

Are you sure they're not risc-v cores for gpu management and shi like that?

[wide mica]

i never said which chips

i said they had risc-v chips

[hazy saddle]

I think when I redo my paging reworks il also do recursive mappings

i will probally have an hddm slab and a virt slab implementation

Where the HHDM one is for small objects to reduce overhead on them and for where it's not a slab for a specific object later in the runtime process

[wide mica]

I do rely on the hhdm for small slabs but I don't particularly like it because it wouldn't really be portable to 32 bit

[hazy saddle]

thast why two allocator impls

one for 32bit one for 64bit

that or i do what linux does and have a small hhdm for thoes allocs

[wide mica]

I'd just have a ifdef

[hazy saddle]

yeah

issue is id probally archtecture them alot diffrently

since one will heavily use the pfndb

[fiery tangle]

Weekly check in on this server :3

Hows it goin?

[jade olive]

-# trying to come up with a funny way to force evalyn to do i486 support

[fiery tangle]

i think i got a i486 like 20 meters away from me :3

[jade olive]

yoooooooo
wanna try and run my os? :3c

my i486 is about 150km/95miles away from me currently :c

[tender mantle]

why would you do this to someone 😭

[jade olive]

cuz it's fun :3

[jade olive]

most annoying part (for me) is lowk the fact that cmpxchg8b doesn't exist on i486 (it's from i586)

[hazy saddle]

i686 is as far a I would go

Linux dosnt even support 486 anymore

And 32bit support would be a side project later

And most definitely be a fork I'd maintain a bit seperate while working on and off it

[jade olive]

no fair :c

[wide mica]

do m68k

[hazy saddle]

Perhaps

[tender mantle]

Hey @hazy saddle

Have you considered supporting the 286?

It’s really fun

No stupid paging, no way to go from protected to real mode without a warm reset

[hazy saddle]

[tender mantle]

No 32 bit addressing iirc

[hazy saddle]

you are lucky we arent in od3

[tender mantle]

Aww what? You don’t like segmentation

Evalyn is paid off by big paging

[hazy saddle]

and you are lucky i like you too much to not mute you even for a joke ;3

[hazy saddle]

im paid off by big anti-non64bit

[tender mantle]

You have muted me over a joke before tho

[hazy saddle]

because i asked in dms

💀

[hazy saddle]

if i do m68k

i would want to make my own PCB for it tbh

And get one that has an MMU

And make a board for it

Connect a serial port up to it

How much ram do these usually have too

Because I'm worried about some of my data structures not being the most efficient with ram usage in all cases

[viral bison]

they are pretty expensive on digikey, lol

and also very expensive on ebay 💀

[young hamlet]

Xtensa would be very based

[hazy saddle]

not thatttt bad

[viral bison]

it's 35 bucks here 💀

[hazy saddle]

i think the main issue would be the rest of the PC

[viral bison]

i mean, i could make the pcb for ya

with this stuff it's not that bad

the frequencies are pretty slow

[hazy saddle]

issue is id want both socketable ram and a cpu

[viral bison]

then you want the DIP version of the cpu

and ram

or make custom ram pcbs

[hazy saddle]

and a 16550 UART + a firmware flash chip and some readable and writable storage

[hazy saddle]

PGA is socketable

[viral bison]

oh

[hazy saddle]

same for qfp

[viral bison]

never seen the adapters

then yeah it's fine

[hazy saddle]

and the 68040 has no DIP version

[viral bison]

i can make you some pcb now if you want

[hazy saddle]

only ones lacking an MMU have one

[viral bison]

ah

[hazy saddle]

would be nice

though idk how easy 512mb ram would be to put there

[viral bison]

k, gimme a list of features

[viral bison]

if you want socketable then pretty easy

you would need to order a second pcb tho

so you can get ram sticks

[hazy saddle]

• m68k 68040
• 512m ram
• 256m of some presistent flash storage
• 4m of flash for firmware to hold dtb and boot routines
• one or two 16550 UARTs
• paddr 0 being reserved / always returning zeros if possible
• if you feel crazy maybe could even use an rp2350 to drive an HDMI display and have some shared vram for this to give an emulated text mode VGA thing

[viral bison]

why not vga, lol

[hazy saddle]

that should be enough to port my kernel to

[hazy saddle]

the rp2350 can handle DVI/HDMI easily

[viral bison]

i mean, i can just remake a whole gpu

[hazy saddle]

😭

Maybe if there is an FPGA on the board for some of this

[viral bison]

hmm, true, that is a good idea

a lot of fpgas are cheap AF

k, time to find a socket for it, lol

[viral bison]

this is a PGA 💀

ok i hope the socket is not crazy hard to solder

[hazy saddle]

if i getg money for this

im paying you to assemble it

😭

[viral bison]

i'll try to make it as cheap as possible

[hazy saddle]

I also wonder if debian could boot on this too

fuck

its also big endian

well that will be fun

[viral bison]

💀

FUCK 💀

why are these so expensive

[wide mica]

don't think they are produced anymore

it's not like 6502

[hazy saddle]

Atleast the sockets for the firmware and the main storage chip would be chill

[viral bison]

those yes

wait, tf it means 179 PGA on the mpu??

the largest connector i have are either 176 or 225 pins

[coarse oasis]

yeah they were discontinued a few years ago

[viral bison]

oh god i hate that datasheet

why the fuck did they use a non standard shape

ok @hazy saddle the PGA socket needs to be ordered somewhere else

[hazy saddle]

damn

[viral bison]

on digikey 💀

let's check on mouser and hope

[hazy saddle]

You also probably can hard wire two of the physical addresses to zero / ignore them

And only have 1gb paddr space

Which is fine for the specs

[viral bison]

it still could not fit on a 17x17

the footprint is different

💀

21 bucks for shipping from the US

and it's the only one i found

[hazy saddle]

At least it will still be cheaper than a normal PC because the ram and ssds

😭 🙏

[viral bison]

those connectors are so rare

[viral bison]

i mean, i have a few riscv cpus if you want with mmu

[hazy saddle]

i also wonder if you will need space for a cooler on the thing

[viral bison]

a fan would suffice

[hazy saddle]

still would need a mount and some heatsink

[viral bison]

so, we need to find a socket i can use in the pcb

else the cpu will have to be soldered

[hazy saddle]

which wouldnt be good for rare chips

[viral bison]

i can still design the pcb for it tho

and then we'll have to be lucky

[hazy saddle]

I wonder if there are any QFP m68ks online?

Also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68060

Is this one any better?

Like in availability

[viral bison]

lemme check the package

[viral bison]

wait

i think gpt found something

[hazy saddle]

No FPU though

[viral bison]

yes, one has

[hazy saddle]

Oh yeah maybe

[viral bison]

yep

[hazy saddle]

Why use chatGPT

And not Google it lol

[viral bison]

fast research

and google is shit anyway

look at what i found

these will need to be soldered on tho

[hazy saddle]

That may be acceptable given the price here

Especially if they have the MMU

https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/user-guide/MC68681UM.pdf

We may need one of these chips

It has UARTs and a timer

@viral bison

[viral bison]

Cool

Or else i could try to find something more modern in case

[hazy saddle]

Could be nicer to have a modern timer

16550 UARTs are the gold standard though if we can use thoes

[hazy saddle]

somthing like this for the memory map could be good? the 0th page would have to be firmware due to being reset vector stuff

{PADDR BIT 31 && 30 = [0, 0]}  0x00000000 - 0x003FFFFF [FIRMWARE] (4 MB)
{PADDR BIT 31 && 30 = [0, 1]}  0x40000000 - 0x5FFFFFFF [RAM]      (512 MB)
{PADDR BIT 31 && 30 = [1, 0]}  0x80000000 - 0x83FFFFFF [MMIO]     (64 MB)
{PADDR BIT 31 && 30 = [1, 1]}  0xC0000000 - 0xCFFFFFFF [STORAGE]  (256 MB)

[wraith star]

what arch is this?

[hazy saddle]

m68k

[wraith star]

ooo

[hazy saddle]

May be making a custom PCB for it

Could be fun

Probably will have an FPGA for address shit and interfacing with external hardware

i also had the most evil idea

make the frimware implement UEFI

[coarse oasis]

could also just use a m68k core and have it all in the fpga :^)

[hazy saddle]

Not as cool is it though

[hazy saddle]

And these are probably than an FPGA capable of running the full thing

Verses just needing to handle a flash chip and some memory mapping and some UART/timers or whatever else the FPGA will do

It could easily embed the UART and IRQ controller and timer shit

[coarse oasis]

i think the biggest problem is unless you're making your own pcb, it's hard to find dev boards that have enough io broken out

[hazy saddle]

I mean apparently @viral bison can do PCB stuff

[coarse oasis]

for some reason the largest io header i saw was 40p with 34 usable ios

[hazy saddle]

Only issue is money since I have none to build this

🥀

[coarse oasis]

on a xilinx fpga dev board

[hazy saddle]

I did see one that was like 300 bucks from AMD and had CM5 connectors on the bottom

So it would have enough IO

But uhhh

Expensive

[viral bison]

Lol

[coarse oasis]

the one i have was like 100 bucks from mr aliexpress

[coarse oasis]

another problem with fpgas is that there are very few fpgas that aren't bga

[viral bison]

Almost none that are actually good

[hazy saddle]

BGA isnt an issue if the PCB company can assemble thoes parts

[coarse oasis]

true

well it is an extra design challenge

[viral bison]

I can too, it's not an issuebreally

Unless it' very big

[coarse oasis]

and it basically forces you to have >2 layers

[viral bison]

At least 6 layers for bga

Else gl

[hazy saddle]

What do you think of an rp2350 acting as a VGA text mode buffer device for this too

[coarse oasis]

i mean if you're getting an fpga why not move as much stuff to it

generating a vga signal is ez

[viral bison]

Yeah

Just look at ben eater's video

[coarse oasis]

with a bit of impedance matched routing you can even get hdmi dvi with not that much extra logic if you pick the ios right :^)

[hazy saddle]

I want HDMI output spesisifcaly

Well dvi but mm

[viral bison]

You can easily get eDP too

Hdmi is a pita

Bc it's hard to find the ics

[coarse oasis]

haven't looked into dvi but hdmi was ez on xilinx

[hazy saddle]

I mean if you are designing hardware you know alot more about that than me 😭

[coarse oasis]

no ics needed, just set the io standard to TMDS_33, then do encoding in fabric

[hazy saddle]

I just want something usable for making software on that's not impossible to build in 2026+

[viral bison]

Oh yeah if you have a fpga it' ez

[coarse oasis]

i don't even use OSERDES i just have a shift register and DDR buffers :^)

[hazy saddle]

If we put alot of it into the FPGA it could also do a regular framebuffer too

[viral bison]

I plan to make my own riscv computer too

3x cpus

[coarse oasis]

problem with a full framebuffer is memory

fpgas don't have that much block ram

[viral bison]

Connect external ram

[coarse oasis]

like, on an artix 7 100t a 640x480 8bpp fb would take 60% of all available block rams

[coarse oasis]

true but that then requires some more careful design to be able to feed it fast enough

[viral bison]

Yeah

[urban mulch]

Yeah you don't get to not connect external RAM to an FPGA

[viral bison]

Huuh, why not

It def is possible

[urban mulch]

You can't fit almost anything in them

[viral bison]

Oh wait

[hazy saddle]

Something like DDR3 would allow for enough ram for the framebuffer and the system ram

[urban mulch]

If you don't have ext ram

[viral bison]

I misread

[clear bison]

Depende on what you're using the FPGA for

[coarse oasis]

if you want just a plain framebuffer sdr sdram would be just enough

well ig depends on resolution

[urban mulch]

Well anything CPU-related, as we're discussing here, would kiiiiinda need it

[hazy saddle]

but ddr3 would be easier to source and be socketable i presume?

[urban mulch]

If you want you know more than 0 memory for it

[coarse oasis]

i mean, you can still buy sdr sdram chips

if you want it to be dimm modules then sure

[urban mulch]

DDR3L is the most common way I see of FPGAs with ext RAM

soldered

[coarse oasis]

but then that's even harder to design for

[hazy saddle]

socketable is nice but it may have to be soldered. how much capcity/speed can SDR reach?

[coarse oasis]

200MHz clock is probably max of max (on my fpga board i have 166MHz-rated ram that runs fine at 200MHz), capacitywise probably max 64MB per chip or so?

the board i have has a single 32MB chip

with a 16 bit data bus

[urban mulch]

Yeah. You'll run into the FPGA fabric not keeping up above that

[coarse oasis]

yeah

well i think you can find 233MHz rated chips, and the extra 33MHz might be doable?

but i think that's basically the max sdr sdram was rated for by the manufacturers, and it's pretty rare even then

[hazy saddle]

i mean thats plenty for a small FB

[urban mulch]

FPGAs aren't really rated for a specific clock speed. That depends on your design.

[coarse oasis]

yeah

[urban mulch]

There's typical numbers though. The fancier the FPGA, the higher that gets.

You can expect a small Artix-7 to reach abouts 100MHz and 200MHz if you really pipeline the snot out of everything, for example.

[coarse oasis]

i mean my kinda subpar design runs at 200MHz on artix 7

although just barely

but that's anecdotal

[urban mulch]

Yeah but that's prob not on one of the small chips right

[coarse oasis]

yeah 100t

[urban mulch]

100t and 200t use a different process node than the smaller ones

afaik

[coarse oasis]

hhu

h

[urban mulch]

Making them slightly faster on average

[hazy saddle]

i also wonder if the FPGA could handle DMA for the storage aswell along with memory mapping it

ive never really dipped into them much

[viral bison]

you can configure them as you like, so most likely yes

given you can fit the whole cpu inside them

[hazy saddle]

True

I want to fit as much as possible to the point it's just the physical CPU and the FPGA acting as a south bridge managing the ram and all the peripherals

[viral bison]

what cpu tho

the m68k?

[hazy saddle]

Yes

[viral bison]

it can work

[hazy saddle]

You could probably reuse alot of this design for the riscv stuff too couldn't you?

[viral bison]

idk, riscv has ethernet and more

[hazy saddle]

But using other devices on the FPGA

[hazy saddle]

You still need some shit for SBI

And other things

[viral bison]

also wdym with managing the ram?

[hazy saddle]

Being the memory controller?

[viral bison]

hmm, i tought the m68k had it integrated, lol

anyway, time to come up with a plan for the implementation then

[clear bison]

For something of that epoch yeah

[viral bison]

oh you wanna use ddr3 with m68k?

💀

[hazy saddle]

It did?

[viral bison]

ok that would be interesting

[hazy saddle]

What kind of dram did it use

But using moderm ram for it would be nice if possible

[wide mica]

probably sram

not dram

[viral bison]

i'm not getting 512 megs of sram for cheap, you can say bye to that XD

[hazy saddle]

Last time I checked sram it couldn't reach 512mb that easily

😭

[viral bison]

we'll try ddr3 via the fpga

[wide mica]

yeah true

[viral bison]

lol

[wide mica]

but i meant machines used sram

of taht time period

probably

idk

[viral bison]

they prob did

[wide mica]

i am very useful to this conversation

[viral bison]

it isn't really hard to drive an sram

so yeah we'll have to make a ddr3 to sdram interface 💀

i mean, the cpu runs at 33 / 25 MHz

so the ddr3 will def be fast enough to act as sram

[coarse oasis]

not really

[clear bison]

Apparently some m68k embedded variants had an integrated memory controller, but the usual ones used an external one

Most of what i found had DRAM controller actually

[coarse oasis]

i mean problem is that it's likely for the older dram standards

like fpm/edo or whatever

[viral bison]

yeah, we'll prob need a ddr3 to sram interface

and that needs an fpga with a lot of IO

[coarse oasis]

that doesn't really work since without a specially design controller you don't have predictable delays

unless you mean sram with a valid/ready interface or thereabout

(which works for the m68k due to it having dtack natively)

although at that points it's basically just a ddr3 controller with a m68k bus interface no?

[viral bison]

basically yes, lol

tho i think it's the only way we can get ddr3 on here?

[coarse oasis]

i mean that's basically how it's done, sub m68k bus interface for some other bus protocol

[clear bison]

Yeah probably EDO

[hazy saddle]

well this will certainly be fun to work on

hopefully sombody else can help with FPGA stuff

but making the firmware and the kernel port should be fun

speaking of which i need to stop feeling lilke crap and finish sched stuff

[viral bison]

i can do some fpga stuff

(tho i deeply hate vhdl)

[hazy saddle]

I did hear there are some apparently nicer HDLs?

[viral bison]

system verilog

it's a bit better

still hell

[hazy saddle]

Should we use an SD card at this rate though

And just provide a controller the m68k can use

[viral bison]

i mean, it's def possible

we can instead of an fpga use a couple of MCUs acting as bridges also

especially ST's ones

[hazy saddle]

We probably do want an FPGA for managing the memory bus though

[viral bison]

that have a flexible mem controller

[hazy saddle]

Since that needs to be high speed

[viral bison]

ST can reach like 100MHz+ mem speeds on that mem controller

[hazy saddle]

Atleast for DRAM, MMIO access can be slower ofc

[hazy saddle]

Yes but being the middleman between the CPU running at 40mhz

[viral bison]

the st can easily run at 500mhz+

(and i get them for free)

[hazy saddle]

So you get 10 instructions to send a reply if you don't want a wait state on the memory there

[viral bison]

depends if you use DMA + FMC i think

we can go the easy path with st, or harder path with fpga

[hazy saddle]

You'd still have to decode the address aswell. Read 32GPIOs too

Is the GPIO that fast on there?

[viral bison]

no need to read gpios

the fmc handles the memory easily

[hazy saddle]

The m68k part

😭

[viral bison]

you can use fmc to interface 2 mcus / mpus

[hazy saddle]

Wait wtf 😭

[viral bison]

lol

[hazy saddle]

What's the fmc again

[viral bison]

flexible mem controller

[hazy saddle]

Like whats the spec sheet / docs

[viral bison]

you make the bus act as a memory

anyway just read up the docs on the FMC

they explain everything

[hazy saddle]

So could you say have the micro act as a memory bus for both and handle ddr3

And have other devices emulated and also do DMA

[viral bison]

no, ddr3 def not

an mcu cannot use it

an mpu yes

if you want ddr3 we have to go with a fpga

[hazy saddle]

Or like any kind of ram

If it can be enough

Other issue is 5v level shifting

[viral bison]

ddr3 might be the cheaperst i think

[viral bison]

shifters are pretty easy/cheap

they won't be an issue

it's basically just 2 transistors

[hazy saddle]

Then we need an FPGA

[viral bison]

ye

and one with at least 128 gpios

or more

[hazy saddle]

This seems it's mostly only for slave devices

[viral bison]

eh, it can be used for IPC too

with some dark magic

[hazy saddle]

💀

It also seems like it couldn't do 512m?

[viral bison]

it 100% can

[hazy saddle]

https://www.st.com/resource/en/product_training/STM32MP1-Memory-Flexible_Memory_Controller_FMC.pdf

[viral bison]

it's 32 bit

[hazy saddle]

Yeah wouldn't that cause issues? There is only 256m of banks

[viral bison]

?

it literally says 512MB

[hazy saddle]

Isn't that DDR something else??

[viral bison]

no

DDR = ram

[hazy saddle]

Yes

I know but it's not external ram connected?

I mean

😭

[viral bison]

it is

[hazy saddle]

If you can do the black magic

And it works well

Please show me

I'm confused af

[viral bison]

the mp1 is expensive AF

• bga

i'm gonna stay away from that mpu, lol

also, mp2 exists and it's 64 bit

[hazy saddle]

How much is it, you did get them from free apparently 😭

[viral bison]

the mcus (h7)

not mpus

[hazy saddle]

Can thoes do this?

[viral bison]

they do have FMC too

[hazy saddle]

Using a full CPU also feels like cheating

[viral bison]

then fpga route?

[hazy saddle]

Probably

And the FPGA would allow having 16550 UARTs on the memory bus

And other fun stuff

[viral bison]

easy 195 IOs

perfect

and 700kbit of ram

[hazy saddle]

And an IRQ controller and a high resolution timer and an interrupting timer

[viral bison]

fuck yes, it comes with integrated interfaces for ddr3 too

and LVDS

(display)

[hazy saddle]

Ooooo

That would probably need conversion to a proper port though?

[viral bison]

LVDS -> eDP exist

and eDP should in theory be 1:1 compatible with DP

[hazy saddle]

Also it seems to do non LPDDR3

[viral bison]

ye

[hazy saddle]

Could we do a sodimm?

[viral bison]

yes

connectors exist

[hazy saddle]

🔥

[viral bison]

https://www.digikey.it/en/products/detail/efinix-inc/T20F256C4/10654496

the link for it

https://www.efinixinc.com/docs/trion20-ds-v4.3.pdf

datasheet here

[hazy saddle]

if you build this and ship me one il make a ton of ze firmware and work on the fpga things with you

[viral bison]

i hope bga won't kill me first

but ok

lol

[hazy saddle]

check PCB websites

they could solder it for you

[viral bison]

assembly is expensive AF

i already checked XD

[hazy saddle]

[viral bison]

so, what should we connect to this fpga?

other than ddr

[hazy saddle]

The m68k of course

An SD card for storage

[viral bison]

oh sd card

not flash?

[hazy saddle]

We need one flash for firmware

One SD card for the main storage

We could do flash for both?

SD may be nicer though

[viral bison]

idk how much more complex an sd card driver is

it should prob be checked

[hazy saddle]

i mean its just SDIO?

[viral bison]

yes

tho remember we have only around 20k cells

and 1Mbit of integrated ram

[coarse oasis]

lvds in this context is signalling, not video output i'm pretty sure

[viral bison]

800 mbps i think it refers to video

tho it also has MIPI

[coarse oasis]

i mean bitrate is a generic value for a serial stream

[viral bison]

oh wait, i think MIPI is for camera only

f

[coarse oasis]

mipi has a display protocol too

but csi is the camera one

[viral bison]

not here

here is just CSI

[hazy saddle]

we may have to just do vga text mode with this

but thats fine

[viral bison]

vga driver is very simple anyway

tho i think LVDS can easily be used for display anyway

fuck wait

that one does not have the DDR3 interface

we need the better version

lemme check

it's x2 more expensive 💀

@hazy saddle

but has like double the cells

and way more gpios

[hazy saddle]

I mean

It's still cheaper than the CPU

[viral bison]

yeah, lol

[hazy saddle]

And it potentially means we could cream maker peripherals

[viral bison]

yep

double the blocks means way more logic

[hazy saddle]

PCIe controller

And connect am nvme

[viral bison]

💀

[hazy saddle]

[viral bison]

i mean

it prob isn't fully impossible

but why

[hazy saddle]

Funny™

But then the firmware needs an nvme driver

[viral bison]

ethernet

[hazy saddle]

Well

[viral bison]

or usb

[hazy saddle]

That would just be part of PCIe

If we did that

[viral bison]

no

ethernet needs a PHY

it's not pcie

[hazy saddle]

Plug in an Ethernet card

[viral bison]

or that, yeah

[hazy saddle]

I mean

You could design it to have two PCIe slots

And an m.2

And then plugin USB and Ethernet

[viral bison]

m.2 is just pcie

[hazy saddle]

Yes I know

But the physical connector is different

[viral bison]

tho we need at least 1 lane per device

[tender mantle]

pcie on a m86k?

[viral bison]

[hazy saddle]

Sure 😭

[hazy saddle]

I mean that's not horrid

[tender mantle]

No that was a genuine question

[hazy saddle]

Yes

They may attempt that

If we do this 😭

[tender mantle]

🔥

[viral bison]

i can always route them

and not place any comps

ok fuck

no pcie for us

we need a dedicated PHY

[hazy saddle]

I mean we need some PHYs for the UART

[viral bison]

pcie is not that simple

[hazy saddle]

Yes yes

What if

We implemented virtio

On this 😭

[viral bison]

💀

[hazy saddle]

Idk im throwing partly far fetched ideas since you said Ethernet

[viral bison]

ok usb or ethernet, but not that 💀

[floral kettle]

attach a bluetooth chip over sdio and get internet over it from a phone

[viral bison]

i mean, it also works

[hazy saddle]

We could do PS/2 foe the keyboard and maybe an esp32 to act as a network controller??

[viral bison]

ps2 is ez af

[hazy saddle]

Indeed

[clear bison]

Why are we trying to design a m68k as if it were a modern computer 😭

[viral bison]

why not

[clear bison]

It's horrible

[viral bison]

i mean, this interface can be exchanged for every cpu that has a 32 bit bus anyway

[clear bison]

It's like putting a 6502 in charge of a last gen nvida graphics card

Like bro 🙏

[viral bison]

it's fun

[clear bison]

You'll reconsider what fun means once you implement all of this crap using a HDL

[viral bison]

good project for uni XD

i mean, the ddr3 controller should come pre-done afaik

so it's just a matter of interfacing it

[hazy saddle]

I mean UART + PS/2 + DDR3 + A VGA framebuffer shouldn't be horrid

The other stuff is a stretch

[hazy saddle]

(plus the timer and IRQ controllers etc)

[clear bison]

What UART btw

[hazy saddle]

16550

[clear bison]

💀

[hazy saddle]

😭

I already have a driver for it

[clear bison]

You know the m68k family already haves an UART

What is this Frankenstein machine

[hazy saddle]

Yes but more legacy chips to gather is worse, the FPGA will be implementing as much as possible with just a physical m68k

If we have an FPGA alot can just be handled there

[urban mulch]

Wow this is NOT something that you would think of in combination with M68K

[clear bison]

Bad larp

[hazy saddle]

Was it even meant to be larp

[clear bison]

Historical butchery

[viral bison]

• that fpga could in theory work with every 32 bit processor that has a 32 bit buffer

[hazy saddle]

It would be quite funny though. Along with UEFI compatable firmware

This will just be a fucking Frankenstein of bullshit

[viral bison]

also, we could in theory get 1080p+ DP video out

[urban mulch]

what unholy nonsense are you puttin on there that runs """""""""UEFI"""""""""

[clear bison]

I present to you the Bullshitosch Amiga 7000

[hazy saddle]

Custom firmware that implements the same interfaces to run a bootloader

[urban mulch]

Are you porting Limine to 32-bit and m68k as well now?

[hazy saddle]

Maybe

[urban mulch]

😭

[clear bison]

https://klipy.com/gifs/nuke-the

[hazy saddle]

The more bullshit the better if it can be pulled off

😭

[hazy saddle]

Though I am just going to make my own loader for it anyways :p

[urban mulch]

At this point implement a virtio interface for something inside the FPGA

[hazy saddle]

I did say that too

[clear bison]

This is m68k not x86 or some random MIPS workstation aiming for x86 card compat

💔

[hazy saddle]

You wana help make the FPGA shit to do this shit 💀

And just fucking make the most cursed m68k board possible

Ala wheat force

[urban mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/money-gif-24788093

[viral bison]

let's put a fucking athlon instead of that m68k

i mean, it will have high changes of working

[clear bison]

Amigatosch ST dev board

[hazy saddle]

https://klipy.com/gifs/tiktok-meme-31

[hazy saddle]

The point is the m68k

[viral bison]

as i said, that fpga interface is pretty global anyway

lol

[urban mulch]

I'm still proud of just how many people I fooled with that

[hazy saddle]

Yeah but m68k first

[clear bison]

Please touch some actual m68k hardware for the love of god 🙏

[hazy saddle]

No

We need to make an abomination

[tender mantle]

nope :3

it would be funny to put a real m86k on the board tho

even if it isn't the main cpu as like an i/o controller or something lol

[hazy saddle]

That's the point

[hazy saddle]

That's the FPGA

[tender mantle]

fpga != real m86k

[clear bison]

If you end up making it find one of those commodore amiga forums and post your crap there

[hazy saddle]

No

The m68k is real

The FPGA is the south bridge

[tender mantle]

OHHH

okay

that's neat

[clear bison]

I'm sure the folks there are gonna LOVE your crap

[urban mulch]

Port an x86 emulator and run @sterile plank 's Java OS on it

[hazy saddle]

So are you in on this project

[urban mulch]

I'll do some wacky FPGA shit sure but it's still your project

[hazy saddle]

Ofc ofc

Diamond master handles pcb and assembly

You do FPGA

I handle the software

[urban mulch]

I'll cobble together some standard IP

What model FPGA u doin btw

[hazy saddle]

@viral bison

They are picking that out

[viral bison]

https://www.digikey.it/en/products/detail/efinix-inc/T35F400C3/15861258

[urban mulch]

Bonus points if it is a Xilinx one since I have xp with it

[viral bison]

nah

it's a way less expensive one

[urban mulch]

Wow that's a bad idea.

[viral bison]

?

[urban mulch]

You don't want random no name in FPGA space

[viral bison]

docs seem pretty solid tbh

[urban mulch]

It's also only 31K LUTs??? You could just get an Artix-7 50T and it'd be better

[viral bison]

"only"

it's the one that has the most 💀

in that price

the artix 7 is expensive

[urban mulch]

31K LUTs is not going to be enough for a core with proper MMU by my estimates

[viral bison]

?

we using a real cpu

[hazy saddle]

The FPGA isn't running the m68k

[urban mulch]

oh

[hazy saddle]

The m68k is a physical one

The FPGA is the south bridge

[urban mulch]

That makes things a lot simpler

[urban mulch]

Is it gonna be on just like a parallel bus

[viral bison]

yes

that's how it is gonna communicate with the cpu

[urban mulch]

I can get you a VGA controller and PS2 I/O easy with that.

[viral bison]

data + address pins all to the bridge

[urban mulch]

NS16550 compatible UART I can do too

[viral bison]

we have LVDS on that fpga too

[urban mulch]

What other I/O we adding?

[viral bison]

for eDP

[viral bison]

SD card, DDR3, flash

and idk what else evalyn wants

maybe usb

[urban mulch]

What controls the DDR3

[viral bison]

DDR3 should have a dedicated block already

[hazy saddle]

USB really isn't needed

[viral bison]

in the fpga

[clear bison]

Nuclear bomb trigger

[hazy saddle]

SD card flash and the DDR should be eveything needed for a working machine

[clear bison]

So it fucking explodes when you manufacture it

[urban mulch]

ehhh right.... and how fast is the m68k? Can its bus be stalled?

[viral bison]

yes afaik

the m68k is like 40MHz max

but the qfp that we want are like 25Mhz or 33 MHz

[urban mulch]

lmao why are we putting DDR3 on something that runs at 25MHz

[viral bison]

cheap

[urban mulch]

no

[viral bison]

i mean, that fpga works with ddr2 too

[clear bison]

75MHz with a 68060

[urban mulch]

DDR3 is going to make your PCB very expensive

[viral bison]

heh, not really

[clear bison]

Can be overclocked too

[urban mulch]

You need very fancy PCBs to do DDR3 right

[viral bison]

we gonna need 6 layers already

and it's very cheap if the dimensions are contained

6L comes with fancy features already

[urban mulch]

I used 8 layers last time I designed with DDR3L

[hazy saddle]

How much better would ddr2 be

[urban mulch]

And I hope you've found some friends willing to teach you how to hook it up in a way it won't explode due to noise

[viral bison]

DDR2L*

[viral bison]

oh there is a server with professionals

they work on this stuff

[urban mulch]

DDR2 would be the realistic choice

[viral bison]

this only has LPDDR2 max

[urban mulch]

Given that we're running a 25MHz m68k that doesn't expect more than like 32MB of physical RAM from its time period

[viral bison]

also, the server if you wanna go and see: https://discord.gg/9dKZvP8hk

[clear bison]

Not really better more so cheaper

[hazy saddle]

True true

I do wonder how bad performance may be

[urban mulch]

Well my point is you don't need a fucking impedance matched PCB with length tuning on all the traces for DDR2

[hazy saddle]

Should be fine even with a micro kernel

[urban mulch]

DDR3 is nominally 2.8+GT/s

[clear bison]

And it's still fast enough

[urban mulch]

DDR2 is going to be more than fast enough

[viral bison]

impedance matching comes for free anyway

[clear bison]

Isn't this an abomination anyways

[urban mulch]

???? no it doesn't

[viral bison]

or well, impedance control

[urban mulch]

You need to have your PCB manufactured with impedance control and then you need to put the right resistors and capacitors in the right places

[clear bison]

Make it be a last gen m68k running at 75MHz and give it 64MB

[viral bison]

you can use the fab calculator to impedance match traces

and they will try to keep them as close as possible

[hazy saddle]

Didn't the m68k 60 series only do up to 40mhz?

[viral bison]

i don't think you need inline resistors for ddr3

[hazy saddle]

I think the model we picked is the best one with an MMU and FPU and being non PGA

[clear bison]

No
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68060

50-75MHz

[hazy saddle]

Ah neat

[clear bison]

Max CPU clock rate

[hazy saddle]

I wonder if @viral bison can find one that could work for this

[clear bison]

You could definitely overclock it too

[hazy saddle]

[viral bison]

if you can find a non bga one sure

[hazy saddle]

https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68060/Motorola-MC68060RC66 - XC68060RC66.html

It's PGA

[viral bison]

fuck

wait

206 pins

and no socket exist for 206 pins

BRUH

[urban mulch]

this board is gonna be an abomination

and also is gonna cost upwards of 300$

[viral bison]

prob no

[urban mulch]

at the rate we're going

[viral bison]

way less

the fpga will be the most expensive part + cpu

[urban mulch]

You're overly confident in how cheap an unassembled 6-layer PCB will be

esp one as big as we'll need

[viral bison]

pretty cheap

[urban mulch]

there's no way

did literally everything I'm talking about get cheaper by half since a year ago?

[viral bison]

• i can use coupons

[urban mulch]

oh so it literally did get cheaper by a significant amount in just one year

[viral bison]

yep XD

and with coupons you get it for way cheaper

[urban mulch]

You'd be shelling out like €70 for that a year ago iirc

[clear bison]

Probably overpriced but
https://www.amiga-shop.net/en/Amiga-Hardware/Amiga-replacement-parts/Socket-for-68060-processor-PGA-206::1460.html

[hazy saddle]

and it will be funny™

[clear bison]

Here it is the socket

[hazy saddle]

better than other things tbf

[clear bison]

I've definitely seen it at less than 10 euros before

[viral bison]

is there a footprint for this?

[clear bison]

Make one urself

https://tenor.com/view/ma-got-pranked-foe-folk-pranked-gif-15594486397198537991

[viral bison]

💀

[urban mulch]

If that's your reaction to "make the footprint yourself", you shouldn't be making this PCB

[viral bison]

no i mean, i normally make them

but 206 pins is hell

[urban mulch]

bro lazy fuck

what did you think EEs do all day

[viral bison]

well, time to find the pinout first

[hazy saddle]

we may also want to not use VGA text open, my kernel may very much not like that

if we can help it atleast

[viral bison]

we will use eDP anyway

so framebuffer

[urban mulch]

"VGA text open"? what?

[hazy saddle]

major typo

😭

vga text mode

[urban mulch]

Well weren't we putting the crtc in the FPGA anyway

[hazy saddle]

my kernel wants full colors and unicode that FT does

[urban mulch]

we can make it do anything the fuck we want

[hazy saddle]

yeah

i was just noting the change

[urban mulch]

In fact this makes my job easier

[hazy saddle]

What framebuffer specs should we have

If we did use a 1gb ddr3 chip we could do 1080p 😭

Ddr2*

[urban mulch]

I have a ready to use CRTC that only needs hooking up to memory

And it's fully configurable

So basically we can make it do anything really

[hazy saddle]

i think this could be the most cursed mk68 based machine

[urban mulch]

for sure

[viral bison]

and we have LVDS out anyway

so ez

[urban mulch]

you want to do displayport?

[hazy saddle]

We could expose the video controller as configurable?

[urban mulch]

I don't even have any DP monitors 😭

[hazy saddle]

Where you give it a physical memory address and the resolution and bpp

[viral bison]

easier to interface to the current fpga

it will get first converted to eDP

and then it should be 1:1 compatible with normal DP afaik

[hazy saddle]

cupcakes

Also @urban mulch should I make the firmware larp as a 90s x86 BIOS that does a POST and a ram counter and other stuff

[urban mulch]

ofc

[hazy saddle]

what about a PC speaker

[urban mulch]

also be prepared for your OS to be hella slow, it's gonna run at like 1/60 of what it usually does

[viral bison]

I2S

[hazy saddle]

It's a micro kernel so should be fineeeeeee

[urban mulch]

no that makes it worse actually

[urban mulch]

non

[hazy saddle]

(that's the joke)

[urban mulch]

we do PC speaker for the shits

[viral bison]

what interface does it even use?

[urban mulch]

That's a buzzer

It beeps

[viral bison]

ah

[urban mulch]

Sometimes you can't even change the pitch of the beep

[viral bison]

lol, so it's not even a real speaker

[urban mulch]

nope

[viral bison]

why not i2s tho

[urban mulch]

while we're at it, we might as well add a derangedly modern interface somewhere, just to fuck with people

[hazy saddle]

Though I could make a monolithic kernel and just save micro kernel shit for later since I'm gonna have a tagged release before I do any of those major decisions

[hazy saddle]

Nvme

[viral bison]

meanwhile i'm fucking with xhci on my os

[hazy saddle]

Or should we use virtio for that

OR even better

[urban mulch]

NVMe over one of the alternate interfaces

[viral bison]

and it's causing random opcodes exceptions 💀

[hazy saddle]

The Microsoft version of virtio

[viral bison]

we cannot do pcie / nvme on this fpga

[urban mulch]

that's the joke

You can do NVMe over deranged shit like UART

[viral bison]

💀

[hazy saddle]

I was thinking we connect an esp32 to the UART for wifi

The thing should still be usable for most things

[viral bison]

btw, we could prob get away with AGP or PCI

[hazy saddle]

So like we don't want the disk to be slow af

[hazy saddle]

What about ISA

[viral bison]

maybe that too

idk if the fpga is that capable tho

[urban mulch]

ISA is simpler than either AGP or PCI

[viral bison]

cool

more cursed stuff

[hazy saddle]

PCI could be nice though if we want real networking though

Then you can have a 100mbps nic in theory

[viral bison]

finally found a fucking pinout

[urban mulch]

Just use esp-hosted instead, way easier

[hazy saddle]

And the m68k we will use is about as powerful as a pentium so

[hazy saddle]

But is it as fucked up

[viral bison]

i need the exact model we'll be going for btw

[hazy saddle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68060

The one with MMU and FPU

[viral bison]

ok, which model 💀

[hazy saddle]

Any clock speed should be fine

[urban mulch]

yeah smartass, there's multiple of this one too

[hazy saddle]

Where should I look

I'm on the toilet rn

[viral bison]

the full chip name

[hazy saddle]

Give me a second then

[viral bison]

like MC68040FE40A

[hazy saddle]

fuck these are expensive

😭

MC68060RC50 / MC68060RC66

thoes ones have the MMU and FPU

they are all pin compatable though

[viral bison]

how expensive?

[hazy saddle]

these lack an FPU but could still work but eh
MC68LC060RC50
MC68LC060RC66
MC68LC060RC75

[viral bison]

💀

[hazy saddle]

without an FPU its fine though

[viral bison]

but we would prob need the fpu

[hazy saddle]

it supports emulation

[clear bison]

I think that's way overkill

[hazy saddle]

also the FPU on these aparently werent good

[clear bison]

Fuck

Wrong message

[clear bison]

Not really "weren't good" more so just outdated compared to the rest of the chip

[hazy saddle]

i mean atp emulation wouldnt be that bad?