MINTIA (not vibecoded)

[twilit smelt]

very possible i will get vast work done on mintia2

hope so

[mortal thunder]

i still have like 2 months of this

you're lucky

[marble briar]

i am NOT enabled DRM for you >:3

[twilit smelt]

new boards of canada album soon

theyre doing a promotional run

they did their first merch in a very long time last year and i bought a BoC hoodie

apparently that was a nefarious plot to collect shipping addresses to send tapes to with cryptic promotional ARG stuff on them

have not received a tape but it would be fun if i did

[shadow ridge]

@twilit smelt are you gonna migrate to no project specific ai

or is mintia secretly vibe coded

[ocean valley]

I'm presuming he's just gonna keep it here, but idk so :p

[coarse current]

who cares

[twilit smelt]

Kind of an annoying position to be in cuz my project is not vibecoded but I also don't want to deal with the discontinuity of making a new thread

But if I leave it here ppl are inevitably gonna go like "why isn't it in the no AI category?"

[warm mural]

i dont think people care, really

[twilit smelt]

There are hundreds of ppl looking at this discord some of them are gonna notice that and wonder why

[ocean valley]

isn't the no-AI category only for when you have a strict "no-AI" policy

[twilit smelt]

I do

[ocean valley]

ah

[warm mural]

your project is literally written in its own language for its own architecture, there's no way you could productively vibecode even if you wanted to

[dense vigil]

I think you should just bite that bullet

Also this thread is not going to be deleted or anything

[tame phoenix]

im not moving either, but then i dont avoid AI or vibe it

[ocean valley]

same :p

[tame phoenix]

and my project is like decades older than LLM AI so

[dense vigil]

Then this place is perfect for you

[short owl]

I don't think anyone cares

[twilit smelt]

MINTIA (not vibecoded)

solved.

[glad fog]

lol well it aint that hard to make a new thread

just saying

its fine staying here though

[sterile frost]

fym it aint hard, this thread has 25k messages

[sterile frost]

so cute

[twilit smelt]

he is in the darkness

he reaches toward the light but he cannot reach it

he is a demon

[glad fog]

Ohh he wants to retain his stats

Didn't consider that

[twilit smelt]

i already lost my last mintia thread

which had like 100 stars and 50k messages at time of deletion

:(

[cunning mortar]

for the record it's not like one has to move to no-ai, even if a project has no AI anything

it's the other way around that you cannot do: i.e. put vibecoded projects in here

[tame phoenix]

why the change anyway

gotta speak out because I'm hard wired to hate change in many forms lol

I mean who cares how a project is made, right?

[twilit smelt]

many care

[tame phoenix]

meh, then perhaps they can care in private instead of pushing ideology into a dev space

[twilit smelt]

vibecoding is different enough that it can move a project outside of someone's criteria for what makes a project interesting

including mine

[tame phoenix]

it's obvious enough without needing to label it

or even call it out

in some ways the "vibecoded" label is just another form of bashing newbies

[twilit smelt]

if a newbie is vibecoding they should be bashed

[tame phoenix]

like I remember people who used tutorial code used to get bashed the same way

[twilit smelt]

that is not how you learn

[tame phoenix]

no that is not how you or I learn, it's how they learn

who are we to force our way of learning on someone else, like I hate learning from videos, for example and others love it

[twilit smelt]

it obscures far too many lessons to be called rigorously educational

[tame phoenix]

you can learn from vibecoding but you have to reach a point where you realise why it's broken

[tame phoenix]

who says everyone is rigourously educational? I'm not here to go to university

I just like to see what others have made

it's all about creativity, and even vibe stuff someone had to give they prompt

[twilit smelt]

they dont need to be but if they arent being rigorous theyre doing something i dont care for and thats true for a lot of people

[tame phoenix]

the creativity came from the corpus

[twilit smelt]

hence the utility of separating it out

[tame phoenix]

I feel it was just separated to stop people dogpiling

[twilit smelt]

theres 1 more reason

[tame phoenix]

"you know it's vibe coded if it's in that category leave them alone" sorta

[twilit smelt]

this is a failure to understand the difference between drawing and tracing

[tame phoenix]

in the end you have to fix it yourself

same with tutorial code, both approaches only take you so far

difference is vibecoding can deliver something that on the surface looks more complete, if you only look at screenshots you might be fooled but you know within a minute of looking at code

I started out 90% tutorial code

(this was before limine and limie-template)

mostly the jamesM one. it was so broken

[twilit smelt]

i have a similar attitude toward both tutorials and vibecoding that dijkstra did towards basic in 'how do we tell truths that might hurt'

It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

when looking that up i foundt his hackernews comment that i thought was genius satire at first bc the last line seems like an ironic punchline

[tame phoenix]

yeah this is just another form of virtue signalling

[twilit smelt]

you can dismiss me that way if you want but i think thats lazy and boring

to do

[tame phoenix]

no I dismiss djikstra

that's just "I don't like that because it isn't academic"

it's BASICally (pun intended) an attack on self taught developers of the mid to late 80s

[twilit smelt]

i think he was making a deeper observation about programming pedagogy which he was erroneously (or intentionally for the sake of brevity) ascribing to basic in particular

these days being elitist about academia at the expense of industry and the self taught is basically a moral obligation because one of those is a pool of smart people and the other is like turbo hitler 9000 /hj

i like one of dijkstra's pet peeves

The use of anthropomorphic terminology when dealing with computing systems is a symptom of professional immaturity.

i write comments like "Then this guy will do this thing while the other guy does this."

all the time

he would hate me

[tame phoenix]

hmm I've never done that

I'm just known for "unprofessional" comments in my projects, so what, gives them some humanity

many hate that too

[night needle]

car

[twilit smelt]

i think LLMs would have made dijkstra kill himself

for some reason tech bros like to invoke him as a hero possibly because theyve never actually read any dijkstra and just saw some of his punchy quotes and thought he was a based based based arrogant yet stupid asshole like they are and would therefore love LLMs

[cunning mortar]

lol

[twilit smelt]

hew as an arrogant asshole but he wasnt stupid

and his obsession with rigor and knowing every formal detail of what youre doing puts him at diametric odds with the vibecoding crowd, obviously

[tame phoenix]

that's at diametric odds with how the majority learn at all

nothing has changed really just the amount of stuff you can make that you don't understand

80s: type in magazine programs
2000s: tutorial copying
2010s: stack overflow
2020s: LLMs

they're all just ways of bootstrapping your project sometimes beyond what you actually understand

we shouldn't bash those people just encourage them to understand what they have made or copied and elevate their knowledge

with LLMs you stand higher on the peak of dunning-kruger and fall further into the trough, but if you're willing to learn there still a way to climb out

if we spend our time throwing stones at them they'll just burn out, my concern is that these new channels are at odds with "no dogpiling, no witch hunting", it's created a dogpile space.

[raven drift]

if you see witch hunting in a thread, please ping mods

or probably better, use #modmail

i'm quite optimistic regarding the use of LLMs for learning btw

LLMs can make it much easier to produce exercises at the right difficulty level for each individual person and then they can be used for self study as well

https://claude.ai/share/40de2b31-ad45-43a1-b4c1-f20f51a43fbc <-- you can do things like this with LLMs that you couldn't do before

https://claude.ai/share/719eeea2-6080-4afe-964b-7a4e8797bceb <-- or this

[coarse current]

Isn't that thread about no ai specifically, not just no vibecoding?

[shadow ridge]

funny that the AI makes a mistake in the first paragraph

your explanation clearly puts p in the L list

(granted thats still a wrong way to implement it ig)

ok maybe not since no guarantees are made about p itself

[short owl]

Probably one of my first programming languages was BASIC, what a bullshit statement.

Also BASIC has too many dialects to put it all under one category

But anyways, after some time I got more interested in Webdev and after that I spent a long time using Java, I remember I dropped the BASIC habits pretty quickly.

[rare epoch]

I personally opened my thread here despite not using AI or copy-pasted code

I just noted it in the thread, you can do the same

Also I wouldn’t call it “not vibe coded”

Because that just means the project is not entirely AI generated

Not “the project has no AI”

[coarse current]

Idk, I've been thinking about it today, and the no-ai channel kinda feels redundant to me

If I were to start a project that's fully no-ai, I'd probably just post it in here anyway, since it's where most of the projects are

[coarse current]

(Also, the context for this is that I have been thinking that maybe it would be nice to have my own bootloader to pair with my kernel, probably just using limine protocol, for fun)

[rare epoch]

This is exactly what I did

[craggy spire]

And to indicate whether AI is being used or not per thread tags could be used

[rare epoch]

Yeah, but I’m guessing it’s too late now that there are threads that can’t be moved in all channels

[coarse current]

There are 6 threads, with 2 with more than 100 messages

[raven drift]

the argument against tags was that many ppl don't read tags

[tame phoenix]

why do we need to segregate anyway

it's just 2 more channel groups to continually check for new posts

[twilit smelt]

more osdev beatz

u can tell a song is good when the poster only has it in mp3 form

[shadow ridge]

wait a second

this isnt vaporwave

[twilit smelt]

neither was this

[shadow ridge]

betrayal..

[cursive charm]

guess i'm following this post now after noticing a lot of NT discussion here

hi, i suppose, lol

[fair jetty]

tbh good song but too distracting for osdev work imo

[dense vigil]

no song is distracting if you focus well tbh

[twilit smelt]

never say anything bad about a rare boards of canada track ever again

[shadow ridge]

depends on the person imo

i vibe too much to songs so anything except low volume jazz immediately steals my attention

[twilit smelt]

BoC's tracks are usually much more ambient and sometimes a little bit of guitar gets involved so this track is very strange for them in being like 100% guitar

[shadow ridge]

the drums are more distracting than the guitar imo

you can have ambient guitar

[twilit smelt]

can you guys see the name of the discord that came from.

[cursive charm]

no

[shadow ridge]

it says the magic window

[twilit smelt]

phew

[shadow ridge]

was i not right

[twilit smelt]

no

[shadow ridge]

i thought it was a good guess 😭

[twilit smelt]

u were not

[twilit smelt]

it varies a lot based on how busy i am and how much work im doing

[rare epoch]

@twilit smelt

[mortal thunder]

The purpose of the "no AI" channel is clear - no AI was used in the making of those projects. I believe even asking AI to proofread some your code is enough to disqualify that project from the channel

So no-ai is kind of a badge of honor

At this point it's kinda too late, since you can't merge forum threads and you can't simply delete a forum channel without deleting all its threads...

[rare epoch]

Yeah but this is what he is doing

And he wanted to make it clear without moving it to the no ai channel

So he added the “not vibecoded” descriptor

But I don’t think that’s what he intended to say because not vibecoded just means not entirely generated by AI

[cursive charm]

i didn't even know there was a distinction?

[mortal thunder]

there is, vibecoding means you primarily use AI to write code

just using chatgpt to proofread or generate a small snippet of code doesn't make your project vibecoded immediately

it's a soft line

[cursive charm]

makes sense

[twilit smelt]

i need to lean way heavier into the larp aspects of this project

this is already pretty good but it could be so much better

i can do moooooore

does anyone have any ideas

for how i can larp my fake 80s-90s RISC workstation company

wait i had a good idea

i can larp a second company that bought out XR/corp in the early '00s and scrapped its hardware division but kept mintia, and the xr/station manuals and stuff can be xr/corp style from the 90s and then theres something new for this other company and the mintia books can be from much later

like the 2010s

[icy bridge]

this could be the origin story for the i386 port of mintia

[cursive charm]

cursed idea: some guy writes a "design review" of mintia on github with a historical overview of the company with bits of revisionism throughout

[twilit smelt]

im on the fence about whether mintia1 is canonical

it was so fugly

[rare epoch]

some OSes have fucking lore

damn

[twilit smelt]

mintia does bc its all inspired by playing around with sparcstations and stuff

[dense vigil]

Where can I order one

[twilit smelt]

the lore so far is that xrcorp was founded as part of the risc craze by a bunch of DEC guys in the early 80s

i guess mintia1 in function could reflect how it was in like 1988

with the implementation being noncanonical, in canon it was written in jackal (and also possibly irl if i ever finish that 1:1 rewrite in jackal that i started)

bc its fugly

and mintia2 in its entirety is how it is in like idk 2015

100% canonical

[cursive charm]

oh, and there'd be a huge list of complaints against the company from the guy or something

[twilit smelt]

larp purposes is a good reason to finish rewriting it in jackal

thatd give it a stronger case for being like mintia from 1988 or whatever

and then i can go like "yeah i wrote my OS twice to larp it in different time periods as developed by a fictional company"

and pretend thats why

rather than because mintia1 sucked so bad it had to be thrown away

also seeing how bad the BeOS kernel was

when i was looking at it recently

really gave me more confidence in claiming mintia1 could really be from 1988 (in function) lmfao

i was comparing it to NT and forgot that NT was like extragalactic for the time

[cursive charm]

is BeOS the one with the is_computer_on_fire() interface supposedly?

[twilit smelt]

yeah lol

thats not why its bad though

it was just quite silly and amateurish in implementation

fixed size arrays everywhere of various kernel objects and so on

if it were a project here it would be below the current average of quality of regulars' projects (which to be fair has skyrocketed over the last 4 years)

[cursive charm]

i just know Be almost would've partnered/been bought by apple if not for NeXT

[twilit smelt]

yeah thats a common alt hist that people like to ponder

[cursive charm]

or so i heard anyways

[twilit smelt]

no that did happen

they did presentations back to back on the same day as like a cook-off

for apple

and apparently next's presentation was 1000x more impressive

if jean-louis gassee had asked for less than he did then they still might have gone for Be, considering NeXT would end up costing them like $600m

but alas he overplayed his hand

[cursive charm]

i don't remember if they had also considered NT or something

i had heard of something along those lines as well

[twilit smelt]

they did yeah lol

there was almost Mac OS NT

i say "almost" but that only would have happened if jean louis gassee and steve jobs both got vaporized by a nuclear bomb

they were looking into it tho for sure and it came up

as much as i love NT that would certainly have yielded a much worse operating system than OSX ended up being

[rare epoch]

“I love NT”

Captured in 4K

[shadow ridge]

ntphilia

[cursive charm]

out of context

[dense vigil]

thats a well known fact

nt is loved in here

[twilit smelt]

to be fair this happened bc NT was literally the first to try to move to something more sophisticated than ASCII

[acoustic sparrow]

utf16 is better for cjk tho

[twilit smelt]

they used what was considered the frontier standard at the time (1989) and were the first to do it, only for the entire industry to proceed to move away from it for their own impls

[cursive charm]

shouldn't it read "plan 9 getting it right" anyway

[rare epoch]

macOS getting it right

[twilit smelt]

windows text encoding is a quirk of the fact they were first to drop ascii and not because they just felt like being different

[cursive charm]

i mean, UTF-8 was invented specifically for that, iirc

[rare epoch]

I’m tired of Unix and Unix likes tbh

It’s not even that good

[cursive charm]

unix is Not God

true

[tame phoenix]

is this utf8 vs mbcs 16 bit chars?

[shadow ridge]

im tired of literally everything

[twilit smelt]

something people really forget is that there is really no such thing as a "unix like" in implementation unless youre imitating the terrible choices of like 80s unix kernels

[rare epoch]

We need a new standard that will replace all existing standards

POSIX 2

[tame phoenix]

fork(), anyone?

thats a horrible choice right there

[twilit smelt]

like by the late 90s all the commercial unices were wildly diverse implementations

[acoustic sparrow]

fork isnt even that bad

[shadow ridge]

for its time it made sense

[twilit smelt]

thats orthogonal to what im talking about

[tame phoenix]

as a basis for starting a new process, without posix_spawn, it is

[twilit smelt]

DG/UX and Solaris were as different from one another internally as Linux and NT

[rare epoch]

I’m talking about the system interface and ABI though

which are not that different between even stuff like BSDs and Linux
All are POSIX compliant to some degree

[cursive charm]

that, or at least it's UTF-8 vs. UCS-2 since i guess wide characters were fixed-sized in early NT

[twilit smelt]

the 80s unix kernel codebases that they stemmed from ran into massive scalability challenges that were solved by like rewriting vast swathes of it which they all did independently, which resulted in late 90s IRIX, Solaris, DG/UX, Mach, AIX all being VERY different kernels

especially DG/UX and AIX

DG/UX was a complete ground-up reimplementation

same with AIX

DG/UX is fucking insane by the way

it was like the NT of the unix world

in the sense of being an ultra-engineered mainframe style OS kernel, done by former mainframe OS engineers who were switching to C from assembly for the first time and carried over a lot of the extreme rigor that assembly programming required

its also the only OS kernel codebase ive ever seen implemented fully as literate programming lol

vertically, its like 90% comment

[cursive charm]

the author behind this, btw, wrote some thoughts on the history leading up to NT, including parts where they've theorized what MS would've been like had they stuck with Xenix instead of NT

[twilit smelt]

they were never going to stick with xenix

the alternative to NT was Mach, not xenix; there were no real internal discussions about putting windows on xenix because it was seen as dated and obsolete already, mach was what they were talking about

if there was no NT then windows would be on mach today

[cursive charm]

alternate future where everything is mach

[twilit smelt]

that was SERIOUSLY attempted

using mach as an everything-kernel was an idea multiple groups had, IBM got the furthest on trying to make it happen

im drinking a starbucks drink with dragonfruit chunks btw

becoming one with mintia1

[shadow ridge]

limnstation? idk what that is grandpa

okay granddad, we get it, your hobby os is the first with swap and shit. did you take your meds?

[twilit smelt]

they were actively trying to put windows on mach when dave cutler turned up on the market and they hired him and he was like "no im doing my own kernel. frick mach"

NT was an accident and was the less likely outcome

if cutler had not happened to be around at the right moment then windows would be on mach

our timeline having NT in it probably makes it one of the less likely timelines

[shadow ridge]

what about linux

isnt it a miracle that it became the giant it is today

[twilit smelt]

the ones where windows is on mach would probably consider ours to be an insane speculative alternate history "what do you mean a VMS guy goes to Microsoft and writes a VMS-style kernel in C and Windows is running on it? stfu man thats corny that woudl never happen EVER."

[twilit smelt]

for torvalds yes its a miracle

but the general concept of "free unix kernel appears at the perfect moment to gain traction and outcompete the commercial unixes" isnt that surprising

could have been anyone really

[cursive charm]

i think i'm getting myself ragebaited by this author again

[shadow ridge]

i doubt it would have gotten as far as it did if it was anyone other than torvalds

[acoustic sparrow]

sadly it didnt happen to a slightly more well-written unix

[twilit smelt]

very silly

[shadow ridge]

even if it did, it would be WILDLY different

[acoustic sparrow]

and so we are stuck with fucking procfs

which recently got crazy features like "reading the list of memory maps of a process without parsing a text file"

[twilit smelt]

i was talking about an alternate timeline where data general had an insanely visionary CEO who was like "we are going to port DG/UX to the PC and we are going to make it FREE and OPEN SOURCE, compiler included." and somehow doesnt get immediately ousted by the board

and now DG/UX is the dominant operating system and Data General is a trillion dollar company

[acoustic sparrow]

true that would be cool too

[twilit smelt]

DG/UX is the highest quality unix implementation of the time period\

being a complete rewrite by very competent people

[cursive charm]

wait, i just realized:

Unix systems do not have a special system call for joining threads
i'm gonna be like markl writing over with a sharpie: NO!!!!!!!

[acoustic sparrow]

depends

[twilit smelt]

when did markl do that

[acoustic sparrow]

on linux you have the wait family

including waitid and i think you can use it to wait for threads

[warm pine]

Its strictly unnecessary

[acoustic sparrow]

yeah that too

[warm pine]

You can implement it in userland trivially

[twilit smelt]

anything you put in userland is just a little bit more fragile

[acoustic sparrow]

ehh

the flipside is that its not kernel attack surface

[warm pine]

Even if you want a thread to participate in an event loop then write to an fd at exit. A pipe is fine or an eventfd

[acoustic sparrow]

and this in particular doesnt really have big issues

[twilit smelt]

markl followed me on twitter but unfollowed me because i kept retweeting yaoi

[shadow ridge]

who is yaoi

[warm pine]

It's some kind of Japanese erotica

I dont know exactly which kind

[shadow ridge]

why would you retweet erotica on your main in any platform😭

like whaaat

[twilit smelt]

i forgot most people dont know to read any sentence with the word "yaoi" in it as a joke

[rare epoch]

I’m betting you were serious at the beginning and you actually did it

[shadow ridge]

idk it was just very plausible for you to be doing that in my mind

you instantly sold me the "joke" as fact

[rare epoch]

yaoi is good, own it

[shadow ridge]

yaoi kernel

[twilit smelt]

the consequences of accidentally using humor B with social group A

i did talk to markl on twitter a couple of times although he abruptly stopped responding to my like ~monthly dms for like 2 months in a row so i didnt dm again on the third month

[rare epoch]

rip

[shadow ridge]

he gave you the L

[delicate dome]

Yeah I've decided. I'm doing another CPU project soon and I would love to do another fantasy arch. Would you like to work together on that?

[shadow ridge]

he's just mark now

[delicate dome]

As in

[cursive charm]

from showstopper! pg. 107:

Once Custer asked him for feedback on a draft of a chapter about the kernel, and Lucovsky returned the draft with "NO!" written in block letters across the cover, Custer was devastated.
i had misrecalled the detail in question from showstopper!, apparently

[delicate dome]

Make xr/station on an FPGA

[twilit smelt]

that wasnt nice of him

markl sounds like an asshole in showstopper

in reality i actually unfollowed him (or muted him at least) because he got completely one-shotted by bots on twitter and started spending all day arguing with them

like literal bots

maga bots

[cursive charm]

he argues with maga trolls on twitter, yeah

[twilit smelt]

did that instead of replying to my dm

[shadow ridge]

a fate worse than death itself

[cursive charm]

i just go to the search tab on xcancel and look up anything related to NT there, lol

it was either that or he'd tweet about LLMs he had recently tried out

[twilit smelt]

it was somewhat of a never meet your heroes thing for me

im glad davec doesnt have any socials so that his like chuck norris type image can remain untarnished

and he doesnt spend all day arguing with bots

that he cant tell are bots

due to being elderly

[cursive charm]

at least he didn't do like plummer and ran a shareware company that later pushed out scareware, lol

[shadow ridge]

it's like meeting superman and he turns out to be a demented old guy who poops himself when you ask him for a signature

and shouts at clouds all day

[twilit smelt]

i wouldnt go that far.

i think he just doesnt have much innoculation against internet ragebait due to not getting on it until much much later in life than we did

was still worth talking to markl because he gave a lot of very very nice details about the earliest days of NT development

and some interesting details about MICA development too

until he decided he hated me and stopped replying

he kept saying "these conversations are very interesting, youre showing me lots of materials id never seen before, please keep in touch!" and it was a LIE

[cursive charm]

he posted some brief stuff regarding the POSIX subsystem, though he doesn't bring up the e-mails he had with the committee

where he basically tried to get them to change some parts of the specifications to no avail

[shadow ridge]

it wasnt a lie

he was just fighting another battle

that was more important to him

it is hard to respond when you are getting overwhelmed in the trenches

[twilit smelt]

it also might have been that he realized he wasnt getting attention other than mine by talking to me and im a rando so he didnt care

i think he might have taken me for a blogger at first or something

[cursive charm]

i heard he was working on an OS at meta?

[twilit smelt]

yeah he actually got in some flame wars on twitter with some of his former underlings from the XR OS project at meta who are now giga tech bro zoomers doing AI garbage at other companies

they kept calling him an out of touch boomer who isnt "with it" (where "it" is rampant grifting at best and reckless endangerment of the species at worst)

he convinced meta to do a brand new kernel for VR or XR or whatever in order to like get super duper low latencies or whatever

and then later john carmack was like "no thats stupid. that entire project is dumb cancel it now. all we need is to modify linux a bit."

so it got cancelled

apparently markl's underlings are NOT loyal to him over that one

from what ive seen

[cursive charm]

i read about that in this thread

[twilit smelt]

they love carmack

[shadow ridge]

why tf does john carmack get to decide random shit

isnt he a game dev

[twilit smelt]

bc he was like an executive at meta

at the time

[cursive charm]

i didn't think john carmack would have a ruffle with mark lucovsky of all people

[twilit smelt]

incidentally the first message i ever sent him where he didnt reply within a few minutes (at all, ever, in fact) was asking him about XR OS

i asked if it was similar to NT in any way

wonder if i offended him somehow by asking about it

sore spot maybe

idk

[shadow ridge]

are you sure you didnt accidentally send him yaoi instead

[twilit smelt]

yes im sure

[shadow ridge]

sure sure?

[twilit smelt]

bye

[shadow ridge]

bye!

[twilit smelt]

from what i saw, carmack thought writing a new kernel was an utterly insane idea and that lucovsky was ripping meta off and deceiving them and was only doing a new kernel for his own personal glory rather than bc it was an idea that had technical merit, so he convinced meta to kill markl's project and go with an alternate idea which was to modify linux

[warm mural]

Also the AT&T lawsuits

Chances are if they never happened some BSD would've taken off instead

[twilit smelt]

i know this based on what some of lucovsky's former underlings (who apparently universally sided with carmack due to being sociopathic strivers who identify with a guy who kills his cat to improve work efficiency) being pretty vicious to him on twitter and repeating some of these things

idk if i coudl bring up any of these threads

[shadow ridge]

didnt he kill it because it peed on the couch

[dense vigil]

he put it down

and it peed all over his house iirc

[twilit smelt]

main issue is no other options were explored because it would have taken away from programming time

[dense vigil]

yeah

[twilit smelt]

he identified the most efficient option which was to just kill the cat

[dense vigil]

but killed sounds like he just offed the cat in his house

[warm mural]

Kinda makes sense from a business perspective

Say what you want about Carmack, he's a smart guy

[dense vigil]

lol

yes

i dont think anyone is trying to dispute that

[cursive charm]

i thought saving developer resources was why we have such slow and bug-ridden software now according to a bunch of game programmers on twitter

[twilit smelt]

i kind of dispute that

i think hes like 80th percentile and just happened to fall into an area where his work would be extremely visible to a large amount of sycophantic people (gamers)

who built his reputation into what it is now

[dense vigil]

maybe but he built a successful career after that also

with oculus and other stuff that he did

[shadow ridge]

he killed one cat per project

they are fuel for him

[warm mural]

I agree that he's definitely more renowned because games are more popular than e.g OSes

[twilit smelt]

lukflug is in all likelihood more intelligent in his strong spots than carmack is in his

[dense vigil]

show me a smart sin calculation helper in nt? wait u cant?

[warm mural]

the coolest thing he did was BSP

he took some weird army paper from the 70s and put it in doom and it turned out really good and revolutionary

[cursive charm]

or whenever jonathan blow would complain about his laptop on twitter, i guess

i don't know why some people look up to folks like jon

i mean, i guess i kind of get it, but also, he comes across as rather brash whenever he speaks on a variety of stuff

it's hard to really tell without having access to his programming language, jai, or whatever

apparently, that's another one of those Cool and Hip Languages that people sometimes talk about

[dense vigil]

@twilit smelt what do u think about jblow and casey muratori

[twilit smelt]

He recognized that the majority of hype behind any programming language is novelty and so he enhanced the novelty of jai by making it private so that the novelty never wears off. It's all marketing

[cursive charm]

jai is in perpetual closed beta, iirc

[dense vigil]

nahh

u definitely didnt listen to any of his stuff

[twilit smelt]

Smart in particular areas but their behaviors are dominated by marketing instincts and so they r like 99% noise and I don't pay attention

[dense vigil]

if u watch his streams he never really tries to hype it up and avoids calling it jai

[twilit smelt]

Anything they talk about that isn't their actual area of expertise they're usually saying either nonsense or very rote uninteresting things

[dense vigil]

he just calls it the language for that purpose

[acoustic sparrow]

lol

[warm mural]

Idk what the hype around Jon blow is

[cursive charm]

he says a lot of stuff on his streams

[warm mural]

Casey muratori seems pretty smart from what I've seen

[dense vigil]

yeah

maybe its because im dumb

[cursive charm]

casey seems more fair than jon, from what i've seen of him

[dense vigil]

he definitely tries to be politically correct more

[cursive charm]

at least he has his programming courses

[twilit smelt]

I have somewhat childish problems with tech influencers in general

[warm mural]

Yeah Jon blow i think people just hype him up because he's arrogant which comes off as confidence

[twilit smelt]

I think being a self marketer (which any influencer is by definition) is a major conflict of interest with technical merit and so you can never fully trust them

[warm pine]

Needs networking if you've a server

[rare epoch]

Is it normal I don’t know ANY of the names mentioned so far in this chat

[twilit smelt]

It's going to have networking I just hadn't gotten there in the kernel yet

[cursive charm]

casey muratori was an engine programmer from RAD. later best known for his handmade hero series.

[dense vigil]

he also made a pretty cool talk on OOP history recently

[warm pine]

You can design your own proprietary protocol suite

[cursive charm]

jonathan blow is the guy who developed braid and the witness

[twilit smelt]

Noooo I want it to actually be able to load google.com

[warm pine]

Derive it from xerox parc's PUP, that was a popular basis

[dense vigil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo84LFzx5nI

[warm pine]

You'll inplement both

[rare epoch]

I hope it doesn’t just say OOP bad functional programming good

[warm pine]

Oop dates back at least to smalltalk in 1972, a bit more than 35 years ago, and Alan Kay who invented the phrase says his conception of object based programming already existed in lisp, so I am already doubtful this talk is going to be accurate.

[cursive charm]

casey doesn't do functional programming, iirc

[dense vigil]

no, its a very high quality talk

[warm pine]

But ill at least skim it when I get home

[dense vigil]

analyzing the history of oop and how it evolved

[twilit smelt]

fp is for people who cant decide whether they love math or cs

[dense vigil]

it does talk about that iirc

[rare epoch]

okay, the title kinda felt sus

[cursive charm]

well, he does have issues with OOP

[dense vigil]

it's a bit of a meme because he has historically been against oop

so he decided to analyze where it came from

[teal trench]

its okay to be suspicious its casey muratori after all

[rare epoch]

I literally didn’t know who he is until now

[cursive charm]

have you heard of handmade hero at least, lol

[rare epoch]

nope

[dense vigil]

whats internet

[cursive charm]

welp, consider yourself lucky then

[dense vigil]

[twilit smelt]

i heard about handmade network before i heard about casey muratori and it was in the context of a bunch of compiler designers saying "god i hate handmade network freaks"

[rare epoch]

my dad did not let me play games for quite a while so I grew up without knowing about any games

he also was an asshole who did not let my mom go outside so

[twilit smelt]

(so i might have been poisoned against him from the start)

[cursive charm]

handmade network is currently led by ben visness, who is apparently at mozilla

[dense vigil]

smalltalk mentioned

[rare epoch]

on other news I remember seeing someone with the nickname “Casey muratori fan” here

[dense vigil]

they got banned

but yes

[rare epoch]

so that is probably the only time I heard of him before

[rare epoch]

Oh 💀

[twilit smelt]

the most osdev discord moment ever was when someone went on the irc pretending to be me by saying "i hate andreas kling casey muratori and jon blow" and that was enough for people to go like "alright will we know its you youre making a fool of yourself"

[dense vigil]

lmao

yeah thats accurate

[warm pine]

I never remember who's who between Blow and Muratori

[cursive charm]

i admittedly have a bias towards casey. i don't really like the other people, though.

[twilit smelt]

it doesnt help matters that muratori is japanese for the verb "to blow"

[rare epoch]

why do you know this

unless you’re Japanese or know Japanese

[warm pine]

Blow invented his own language called Blow and Muratori invented a language called Jai iirc

[warm pine]

Lmao

[cursive charm]

isn

oh my god, me

[warm pine]

I knew something was inherent to them that made me so unable fo differentiate the pair

[cursive charm]

isn't andreas kling the guy who makes serenityOS

[warm mural]

Shilling/fanboying a person in particular is weird

[twilit smelt]

i completely made that up i apologize for deceiving you

[dense vigil]

used to

[cursive charm]

i know he works on ladybird now, i guess

[rare epoch]

Unless the person is Terry Davis then it’s cool

[cursive charm]

i never understood the appeal, however

[warm mural]

No that's even worse

[dense vigil]

ladybird?

[cursive charm]

yeah

[twilit smelt]

we have a hatred for terry davis fans which i may or may not have started

[twilit ingot]

it's a browser made by the serenity os team afaik

[dense vigil]

it was supposed to be fully NIH and handmade

[cursive charm]

thank god LOL

[dense vigil]

now he switched to vibecoding and using 3rd party libraries for everything

[cursive charm]

terry davis has been weirdly idolized in some circles

i hate it

[dense vigil]

because not many people understand temple os is not a technically advanced project

[twilit smelt]

"bro its revolutionary its the first OS to have a JIT built in"
literally isnt even a JIT, popular misconception

even if it were thats a gimmick

[dense vigil]

u type it in, it evals it == jit

[rare epoch]

I honestly think a lot of his “fans” are not even fans but 4channers who liked some of his racist outbursts, so basically people who make him butt of the joke

which is rather annoying

[warm pine]

Maybe he listened to those AI apocalypse peddlers and decided he had to avoid "becoming part of a permanent underclass"
He thinks he must build something he can monetise fast

[twilit smelt]

at first they were mocking him by calling him the smartest programmer ever but they accidentally tricked themselves into thinking he actually was and it became earnest worship

[dense vigil]

maybe yeah

he had ai convert the entire codebase from c++ to rust

[short owl]

https://tenor.com/view/no-limit-to-larp-gif-11577996250524935683

[dense vigil]

idk what brainrot got into him

[warm pine]

Wtf

[rare epoch]

converting from c++ to rust is brain rot on its own

/j

[twilit ingot]

bruh

[warm pine]

I never expected that

[cursive charm]

i found that really funny for some reason

[twilit smelt]

is this real

[dense vigil]

yes

[cursive charm]

yes

[short owl]

Tf

[dense vigil]

no one expected it

because he used to shit on rust

[rare epoch]

also who?

and what codebase?

[cursive charm]

he didn't like the rust community

[dense vigil]

kling

[cursive charm]

but he likes rust itself, i suppose?????

[twilit ingot]

why everyone is porting to rust and making the port shitty and buggy, oof

[dense vigil]

ladybird

[warm pine]

He made so much noise before about how rust is not good enough so he invented JACKET language and then I think he was evaluating swift. But rust, he said it wasnt good for browsers

[rare epoch]

I don’t know who that is either 😭

[rare epoch]

And what that is

[dense vigil]

he said rust was shit because it didnt support oop well and web is all oop

[rare epoch]

Is it a browser or something

[dense vigil]

his words

[twilit smelt]

ive been talking lately about how i have these insane pattern matching abilities for personality archetypes where i can predict someone's behavior years in advance just by some little way they present themselves or their work and dislike them ahead of time for it which makes me look like a schizophrenic but i get vindicated every single time

[short owl]

A browser

[rare epoch]

I remember hearing a browser with the name ladybird

[twilit ingot]

yes

[warm mural]

3rd party libraries is justified imo

[cursive charm]

in ladybird's case, he migrated away from swift and now he's trying to port it to rust

[short owl]

What 😭🙏

[dense vigil]

id understand it for some stuff

[twilit ingot]

i'm talking about basically all the big projects

[rare epoch]

uh wtf 😭
I don’t think you can do that, no one can

[dense vigil]

but not to the extent they did it

[twilit ingot]

i think they just wanna get rid of the GNU license?

[twilit smelt]

ill reply to someone who doesnt put sob emoji

[twilit ingot]

so they rewrite everything by scratch introducing bugs

[short owl]

what

[warm mural]

Like what? Afaik the biggest change was skia

[dense vigil]

skia yeah

literal google library

[warm mural]

Skia is fine

[dense vigil]

like at that point import the whole chromium

lol

[warm mural]

No?

Skia is for portable graphics

How is that bad

[rare epoch]

SDL is for portable graphics ❤️

[dense vigil]

that defeats the original purpose of the project

[warm pine]

I knew he was a chud from the getgo but I never expected him to ditch serenity and even replace ladybug with AI rust

[dense vigil]

how is it bad to import the entire chromium

its a well tested fast codebase

[warm mural]

It's not chromium

[dense vigil]

thats not what i asked

im just explaining your point to you

[twilit smelt]

this is real

[warm mural]

There's a difference between importing a whole ass browser and a rendering library lol

[rare epoch]

ikr
And he used AI too
how much are you betting he introduced 100s of bugs

[dense vigil]

rendering is like all a browser does

[warm mural]

No???

[dense vigil]

its goal is to transform text data into screen data

literally the entire purpose of it

[short owl]

As a schizo myself i don't really know what to say lol

[rare epoch]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-armstrong-revengeance-i-made-it-the-fuck-up-gif-25029602

[warm mural]

Skia is literally for drawing like shapes and text and whatever

[rare epoch]

from the best source too - 4chan

[dense vigil]

yes

[warm mural]

Its not a layout engine or a JS evaluator or an html parser or a CSS parser

[dense vigil]

yes?

[warm mural]

which are all vastly more complex than just rendering

[short owl]

?????????

[dense vigil]

oh also this reminds me

[warm pine]

It's just attunement to certain types as far as I can see that let's you see how a chud like klinge might change over time

[short owl]

Infy are you trolling?

[dense vigil]

what else does a browser do

[twilit ingot]

no??

[twilit smelt]

yeah i meant specifically for tech bro archetypes

[twilit ingot]

javascripts, cookies

[warm pine]

He was laying low during peak woke and as soon as it ended he let's it all hang out

[twilit ingot]

and more

[dense vigil]

???

[twilit smelt]

the tech bro archetypes all fit into really easily predictable patterns of behavior

[dense vigil]

whats the end goal of parsing js

[rare epoch]

While I’m not schizophrenic I’m stuck with this “pattern recognition” + paranoia anxiety disorder thing where I’m scared that everyone is out there to get me by poisoning me and idk I can’t relate to that anyway

[short owl]

Execute Javascript, manage web storage, parse the markup and styles

[dense vigil]

yes but why are we doing it

[twilit ingot]

displaying stuff and do requests, but the browser still interprets it

[dense vigil]

i never said it doesnt interpret js holy shit lol

[short owl]

To show something to the user and make it interactable

[dense vigil]

yes!

thats the entire idea of a browser

to show stuff on the screen

[short owl]

So i shouldn't use Vulkan because that also helps me show stuff to the screen

[dense vigil]

im sure they will switch to a different js engine once they realize a non-jit approach cant drive the real world web well

[dense vigil]

you cant because thats the lowest level abstraction available to you

but if you're trying to defeat google by using their libraries might as well get the whole thing

[short owl]

Skia is just helping you render text and shapes, it doesn't parse shi

[dense vigil]

yes, thanks for repeating

[short owl]

https://tenor.com/view/higuruma-hiromi-higuruma-jujutsu-kaisen-jujutsu-kaisen-meme-jjk-memes-gif-10370496866020481076

[warm mural]

The problem of layout-ing is much bigger than plotting pixels on the screen, skia is probably like 1% of the chromium codebase

[cursive charm]

cat

[dense vigil]

what percentage is the js engine

[short owl]

Skia is just "draw this thing here"

[warm mural]

Very large

skia is just a portable abstraction over OpenGL/Vulkan/whatever

[rare epoch]

Seriously though this and thinking you can predict someone’s behavior years ago is not something I can take seriously in any way

It goes against all established knowledge of psychology
It ignores people can change
It assumes schizophrenics have some kind of pattern recognition super power which is just not true, if anything they lose such skills known as “negative symptoms of schizophrenia”

[twilit ingot]

layout is prob the most part of the codebase bc html and css are hell

[dense vigil]

i know lol

[warm mural]

The JS engine is probably bigger

[twilit smelt]

and yet i can do it

[dense vigil]

it is part of the literal google chrome code base, the thing your browser was originally developed to combat

he used to complain about the google monopoly

all the time

and still does

[rare epoch]

it is possible that you just made yourself believe that you can do it

[dense vigil]

and then proceeds to use their products for his own thing

[rare epoch]

confirmation bias and such

[twilit smelt]

i think ppl here can attest i have like a 100% hit rate usually

[cursive charm]

i can predict that the conversation about skia will keep running in circles

[twilit smelt]

once someone falls into one of the tech bro pipelines they immediately become extremely predictable automata for the next like 5 years

[rare epoch]

I’ve seen people go from hardcore Nazis to the strongest allies
If you knew what someone will be from years ago why even care

[rare epoch]

I mean once someone is on a pipeline / going down a rabbit hole you can predict where they will go, that’s not exactly a super power

[twilit smelt]

self-marketers in tech alllllll do the same shit all at the same time

[warm mural]

Idk I don't think importing that kinda library is giving in to the monopoly

If they imported V8, sure

[dense vigil]

what % of the google chrome code base do u have to import for you to think that

[warm mural]

at least 5-10%

[dense vigil]

lol

[warm mural]

skia is probably like 1%

[dense vigil]

if we strip tests and stuff im sure its 5%

[cursive charm]

i just remembered this from a video about OS/2

[dense vigil]

and btw i expect them to do that

later down the line

because their engine is interpreter only

[rare epoch]

Kinda unrelated but why do we even need another browser engine when Chromium is open source and everyone can modify it

Just make it a standard

[dense vigil]

and they said they will never add a jit

[warm mural]

Also afaik they abstract over skia

[dense vigil]

inevitably people will realize its slow af

[warm mural]

So they can always swap it out

[short owl]

Because there are better ones, also sometimes it's just legacy

[warm mural]

Because monopoly

[cursive charm]

isn't chromium already the de facto standard?

[dense vigil]

imo we dont

[rare epoch]

When something is open source that is not a monopoly but a standard

Chrome might be a monopoly

But chromium isn’t imo

[twilit smelt]

so that kl*ng can abuse the good faith shown toward earnest hobbyists, to self promote and crowd out the latter in the process while muddying the waters about which is which

[warm mural]

Kling used to be cool

It's a shame

[rare epoch]

Is Kling a person or a language

I’m confused

[cursive charm]

a person, lol

[rare epoch]

Oh

[dense vigil]

well his os was always incompetent but it least it was good faith

[warm mural]

yea it was cool when it was just a fun hobby thing and didn't take itself too seriously

[twilit smelt]

i knew he was performative as fuck from the first time he showed up on anyones radar which was the post on r/osdev where he was like "I wrote my own operating system, a love letter to Windows 95, while isolated in a cabin in the woods, to recover from my addiction." like come on man

everyone always took all that at face value except me

[cursive charm]

did he really call his OS "a love letter to windows 95?"

[twilit smelt]

yeah

[cursive charm]

wtf

[twilit smelt]

in visuals

[dense vigil]

its called that to this day

[twilit smelt]

which was like the thing at the time which is one reason it seemed inauthentic to me along with the way it manages to hit like 3 other perfect uber leet hacker themes

[dense vigil]

in the readme

[rare epoch]

lmao this is my OS

well less of a love letter but more of an alternative take

but still

[dense vigil]

ah nvm

they changed that

[cursive charm]

i'm pretty sure windows 9x was far more complex than his own OS

[warm mural]

Idk I don't see how that's a bad thing, the UI is clearly win95 inspired

[cursive charm]

don't get how it's a "love letter"

[dense vigil]

it definitely had less mutexes taken under spinlocks

[warm mural]

it says love letter it doesn't say better than

[twilit smelt]

did it even have spinlocks i dont know if it had smp support

i mean serenity doesnt either really

[dense vigil]

not sure lol

[twilit smelt]

last i checked it would still crash after 30 seconds of running a stress test and they were scratching their heads for the third year straight about why

[dense vigil]

depends what u mean by smp support

[cursive charm]

well, i never really saw it as being inspired by windows 95 or any of the sort

[dense vigil]

stress test? U would be lucky if it booted to desktop

[rare epoch]

how good of an OS was it compared to some of the advanced projects here like Managarm

[twilit smelt]

it was very bad

[warm mural]

The UI?

[twilit smelt]

the kernel

at least

[dense vigil]

its an os written by a browser developer

its what u would expect

[twilit smelt]

ive seen people say the userspace was reasonable

[dense vigil]

the userland was fine

[twilit smelt]

but the kernel was actual dogshit and still is

[dense vigil]

the kernel was a joke

[rare epoch]

how dogshit can it be

[warm mural]

Browser developers are pretty damn competent

[twilit smelt]

quite

[rare epoch]

was it based on James M or something

[twilit smelt]

no

its its own brand of bad

[cursive charm]

i don't remember what serenityOS's UI looked like, so i can't say for certain

[twilit smelt]

it looks like windows 95

[dense vigil]

at systems engineering?

[rare epoch]

like the only genuinely bad kernel design so far I’ve seen is JamesM

like that one is bad even for me

[cursive charm]

oh

[warm mural]

I think you underestimate the complexity of browsers

[short owl]

Browsers are basically a whole ass operating system

[twilit smelt]

serenity is bad i think ive written like 30 bullet points about why which were just from me clicking on random source files and they werent little pieces of pedantry either they were each "holy mother of god this is fundamentally awful" level things

[rare epoch]

https://github.com/cirosantilli/jamesmolloy-kernel-development-tutorials/blob/master/9_multitask/task.c

Just look at this if you want to see how bad JamesM kernel is

[dense vigil]

that doesnt mean a browser developer knows how kernels work lol

its a completely different problem

[warm mural]

Yes but you implied that browser devs are incompetent and can't do systems engineering

[twilit smelt]

anyway i have to go and get some work done for this annoying uni group project, iv ebeen up for like 16 hours and plan to be up for another like 16 hours to fix my sleep schedule and i need to do this while im still vaguely functional and not a zombie

[digital pivot]

"Mica had elements of VMS, NT was heavily influenced by Mica and RSX-11. XROS was more microkernel-based and more tight. "

[warm mural]

WebKit has better synchronization primitives than most OSes in this server

[dense vigil]

from my data points they are

[digital pivot]

apparently xr os was similar to nt but microkernel

[dense vigil]

but he's the only browser dev i know who attempted kernel dev

[cursive charm]

@twilit smelt, what do you think of reactos? :P

[warm mural]

He wasn't a very prominent browser dve

[rare epoch]

// Have we just switched tasks?
if (eip == 0x12345)
return;

[twilit ingot]

bruh

[dense vigil]

iirc their thread blockers were some of the worst code but idk https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/blob/master/Kernel/Tasks/ThreadBlockers.cpp

[twilit smelt]

always an earnest project, once a bit silly internally, but has had a huge turnaround thanks to @The_DarkFire_

[rare epoch]

And you know how it modifies page tables of other processes? It temporarily disables paging

[twilit ingot]

....

[rare epoch]

I feel bad for anyone who used it as a tutorial

And like back when I first started OSDev it was one of the most popular tutorials

And I had used it too

[twilit smelt]

earnestness is the biggest thing for me im extremely sensitive to that

[dense vigil]

yeah reactos is shaping up to be pretty damn good

[rare epoch]

We should make a GNU/NT

[twilit smelt]

if something is bad but earnest ill tend to be like "i believe in you you can improve here are some resources"

[rare epoch]

POSIX subsystem for ReactOS

and GNU/NT

[twilit smelt]

if its bad and written by a huge self promoter for self promotional purposes ill go like "delete this and never show your face in public ever again you FREAK"

if its good and written by a self promoter thennnnn idk i guess i ignore it

that doesnt happen often though

[cursive charm]

interix for reactos?

[craggy spire]

Was XROS released in any form at all?

Until it became Linux or whatever

[twilit smelt]

no and everyone who worked on it that i could find joked about it as being the product of boomer derangement

and didnt seem to have any pride in it at all or like to have worked on it

[rare epoch]

boomer derangement syndrome? 😳🤢

[twilit smelt]

the disloyalty to their captain was quite disturbing and seemed to be in service of falling in line with carmack just because he won the political battle

and they r pathological ladder climbers

[digital pivot]

no, itd be very fun to see its code, nt being real micro kernel

[twilit smelt]

the zoomer/late millennial stock of the modern cs grads of the big universities

[cursive charm]

NT isn't a microkernel

[digital pivot]

maybe itd be one of the few serious and usable micro kernels

[digital pivot]

i respond to my message about xros being similar to nt but a microkernel not nt being a microkernel

[rare epoch]

NT is technically monolithic but I’m going to call NT a hybrid kernel still

[cursive charm]

was XROS actually supposed to be a microkernel?

[digital pivot]

idk this - "Mica had elements of VMS, NT was heavily influenced by Mica and RSX-11. XROS was more microkernel-based and more tight. " - was a quote not my original text

[twilit smelt]

cutler leaving DEC and having his entire tribe leave with him into the great unknown to enter the history books as legends, versus lucovsky leaving meta and having his entire tribe immediately fall in line with the victor and start ridiculing and debasing their own work under him (and him himself as being an out of touch dumb boomer) in order to continue their promotion tracks inside big tech to become nameless strivers with obnoxious cars and 20k follower influencer accounts spamming about AGI, is very sad and imo reflects more on the cultural rot of silicon valley and the tech industry becoming status-obsessed than it does on markl being a less followable leader or something

[digital pivot]

i kinda trust the source of this message

[twilit smelt]

ANYWAY.....

[rare epoch]

MINTAI (fully vibecoded) when

[cursive charm]

what exactly is a "hybrid" kernel anyway?

[twilit smelt]

made up concept

literally not real

near as we can tell, steve jobs coined it in an apple keynote to refer to xnu in like 1998

[cursive charm]

i thought XNU was also monolithic

[twilit smelt]

it is

theyre both just monolithic

hybrid = monolithic but buzzword

[craggy spire]

They apply it to Darwin, though, as I understand it in the sense that they combine Mach and BSD

[twilit smelt]

this was a later construing of the term

the original meaning of hybrid as used to refer to darwin was like

hybrid between microkernel and monolithic kernel

[cursive charm]

apparently, wikipedia provides this diagram: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:OS-structure2.svg#/media/File:OS-structure2.svg

this feels rather arbitrary, lol

[twilit smelt]

also they dont "combine mach and bsd" its still in the same form as every mach kernel ever which is just a rewritten core (scheduler and mm) with bsd hanging off the side

thats just what mach is

[warm pine]

Their "hybrid kernel" as illustrated is just every microkernel prior to 1995 or so

[twilit smelt]

except for some research variants that went nowhere

[dense vigil]

Wtf are they talking about

[warm pine]

No one put drivers in userland till later. Drivers arr basically an orthogonal axis to microkernelity - even Linux can run them in userland

[twilit smelt]

utter nonsense diagram

complete nonsense

[dense vigil]

Yeah with vfio u can run any device driver in Userspace basically

[twilit smelt]

that isnt even the claim to 'hybrid' that like NT or XNU have

[dense vigil]

Does that mean Linux is hybrid or a microkernel

[twilit smelt]

their claim to being hybrid is that some drivers are in userspace

but that diagram has drivers being in kernel mode in hybrid kernels??????

[dense vigil]

Lol

[cursive charm]

thanks, wikipedia

[dense vigil]

Yeah that's what made be question it also

[dense vigil]

Apparently hybrid means a Unix server in Userspace

[twilit smelt]

which by the way is the configuration that led NT to call itself a "microkernel" in the early 90s even though it had like 2 million lines of kernel mode code

[warm pine]

"Hybrid kernel" as a concept seems to have most of its content in the accretion of various uninformed people thinking it sounded like a good way to sound smart

[twilit smelt]

so this diagram doesnt line up with any claims anyone made about anything ever

[warm pine]

That's why its incoherent

[dense vigil]

Yeah lol

[warm pine]

Someone who knows just enough to be dangerous, goes and furnished us with these diagrams amd architectural claims, based entire on an aesthetic appreciation of how it would look...

[cursive charm]

ah, yes

[dense vigil]

Looks like a hobby os readme

[cursive charm]

it's from a PDC 1995 presentation: https://youtu.be/adlaK_ln8sU

[shadow ridge]

• load GDT
• enable A20 line

[dense vigil]

I love these old presentations honestly

[digital pivot]

• director
• business systems

[dense vigil]

• GDT init... OK

[digital pivot]

from video preview got enough

[shadow ridge]

i love how GDT is like

you just load like a 256 bit constant or whatever

into a register

and thats it

you basically literally never touch it again unless u want to go in compat mode or whatever

and literally no hobby os does that

that i know of anyways

[dense vigil]

Nah pmos here supports compat mode

Since its pretty easy to do

[shadow ridge]

what benefit do you even get

[dense vigil]

Running 32 bit apps

Some just never bothered to port to 64 bit

Like steam until recently

[warm pine]

"microkernel" was a very underdetermined term at first

it was misused widely in the early 90s to refer to many modular or layered architectures

however the term has always included designs like the attached, which is in fact a quite accurate picture of how most of the microkernels of the 90s were architected, despite being labelled a 'hybrid'

[twilit smelt]

going to make like 1991 era promotional thing for mintia1 that was put in byte magazine where its called "the mintia microkernel" just to make the period larp complete

[warm pine]

device drivers being able to run in userland is not really something that has any significance to the architecture of a kernel, it's not hard at all to retrofit monolithic kernels with that capability by basically just writing a driver class that simply bounces requests up to a userland server!

[warm pine]

without a doubt

this is the real curse of acquiring detailed knowledge in a subject

you end up getting unduly annoyed when you see how the popular understanding of it is wrong

[twilit smelt]

i was about to write out a list of reasons ive seen things be referred to as hybrid kernels or microkernels and i got exhausted immediately

[warm pine]

i got my first experience of this a decade ago when i studied the history and distinctive characteristics of service management/"init" systems on unix-like operating systems and realised that the entire popular so-called ""debate"" about this is purely a mixture of aesthetics, with a total ignorance of anything that happened outside the linux world, and a total absence of appreciation of questions of design and engineering

[cursive charm]

does the so-called "debate" mostly revolve around systemd in regards to the init system stuff?

[warm pine]

principally yes

the essence of it is that people argue about whether that's best or whether an adhoc collection of shell scripts is best

so you can immediately see there is a false dichotomy at play, and also a conflation of "something that's not an adhoc collection of shell scripts" with a particular implementation thereof

[cursive charm]

this is tangentially related, but i've seen some people state that even init systems like systemd are principally less overcomplicated than the service controller from NT

the most complicated parts of the service controller that i can think of are how it supports packaged services, i suppose

[warm pine]

the question of what to do about that was already addressed by AIX, Solaris, and macOS; all three solved all the problems of the adhoc-collection-of-shell-scripts style. all of them support ongoing supervision of services (rather than forking them off into the background), do not require hacky stuff like PID files, do not contaminate a service environment with the environment it was launched from, have some kind of ordering mechanism (explicit dependencies in AIX and Solaris, implicit via preopening sockets/mach ports and launching the service when requests arrive)

[warm pine]

i don't even know the first thing about the windows service controller unfortunately

but if you want to get an idea of how irreedeemably retarded the debate is, people think that "svchost.exe" (which i think is a mechanism to run and multiplex DLLs providing COM interfaces; aka almost entirely unrelated to service management) is the windows equivalent of systemd or smf

[cursive charm]

svchost.exe is not the service controller

i don't know how people come to conclude that

[shadow ridge]

i thought the systemd stuff was more ideological

[cursive charm]

it's just a service process

people find it "overcomplicated" because it's a multi-service process

[warm pine]

it has svc in the name and the debate is just a load of ignorant people arguing about what they know almost nothing about

[warm pine]

the ideological element is probably 90% of the debate

[twilit smelt]

its a service container process i think but does not itself control the services

[cursive charm]

i don't even like the way they designed the generic service host. it's just that svchost.exe is such an artifical issue in service management within NT.

third-parties don't write their services to run under svchost.exe

they write their own service process

[twilit smelt]

multiple services shared the same process to reduce resource consumption but on modern PCs with billions of bytes i think they tend to just give one svchost per service so theyre fully isolated

[tame phoenix]

isn't it a host process for services that are in DLLs rather than exes as both are supported by CreateServiceEx? if I remember

[cursive charm]

plus, it wasn't until 2000 or so that they introduced svchost.exe. prior to that, they would've ran the services under the controller itself (i.e., screg.exe or services.exe), according to geoff chappell.

[tame phoenix]

so that if the service crashes it takes down svchost instance not the service system

[cursive charm]

and yes, the service controller was either screg.exe if you're on NT 3.x (could be wrong?) or services.exe in NT 4.0 onwards, iirc

i could double-check my NT 3.1 VM later just to be sure

[warm pine]

if there are details published about the architecture of windows' service manager i would certainly be interested to hear about them

[cursive charm]

yes, services written to run under svchost.exe are implemented as DLLs

[warm pine]

i do not claim to be an expert in many things, but in service management on unix-like systems, there i would claim to be an expert (it's a low bar because hardly anyone cares enough to study the history of it)

[cursive charm]

but you don't need to write a multi-service process that implements the service via DLLs

it just has to pass information about what services it can start to the service controller

so you could implement the services and have it statically link into your fancy service process

there's no special requirement for multi-service processes that forces any such services to be implemented via DLLs

that's just a part of svchost.exe's design

[twilit smelt]

im probably the world expert on like dec mica outside of people who worked on it

thought about that recently

its unlikely anybody else was that autistic about it

[warm pine]

no one seems to have gone so far as to actively secure the design books

[twilit smelt]

after all i was the one who got the mica docs and ozix docs digitized by the CHM i think thats pretty good proof i was the premier autist about that particular topic in the world at the time

yeah

really what that did was move it to the top of their todo list of ongoing digitization of their entire collection

so they did it within a couple months rather than in 10 years

they accept such requests for free bc they were going to digitize it anyway so its a zero cost thing for them aside from just moving it ahead of anything that had not been requested

the effort of managing a todo list

[warm pine]

i should write to jonathan de boyne pollard about the new information you've gotten on it, he would probably be interested

[twilit smelt]

i sent it to markl but he ignored it

[warm pine]

he outranks me in that he not only knows about unix service management but also windows and i've found he's made posts comparing the windows "service control manager" with service managers on unix

[twilit smelt]

this is vain but do you think im still the premier page swapping autist of hobby osdev or has anyone surpassed me

[warm pine]

the man just seems to know about everything to do with OSes, he's the one who wrote that page mythbusting how "lazy IRQL" works on systems with a PIC

[warm pine]

probably you hold the spot for now, but beware if you slow down too much you might lose the crown

[twilit smelt]

you and korona might be my top contenders

since you said korona is actively planning it for managarm

[warm pine]

the basics are already in, managarm implements working set based page eviction now

[twilit smelt]

wowee

i wonder if he looked at any of my or your code

[warm pine]

the replacement algorithm is basic now but that will improve later, it's a fun problem space

[twilit smelt]

id ping him and ask but i dont want to bother him

[cursive charm]

also, ServiceDll in the service's Parameters is specific to svchost.exe. that is, the service host reads that value, not the service controller.

the service controller only knows to pass the command-line that tells svchost.exe the group the corresponding service belongs in, so that the host provides a list of services that it can load based on the group that's named

[twilit smelt]

i think i might be the biggest numa maxxer rn also

its quite pervasive

not complete yet though

and my planned IO system is potentially gonna be the most overengineered and robust but only if i can actually write any code for it

these are my 3 areas i believe

im still proud of the node space thing i did

if u did that for linux u could write a major paper about it probably

after benchmarking improvements on big ass servers or something

ykw i should ask someone (perhaps my OS prof) at the UofU to mentor my undergrad research doing exactly that and write a bachelor's thesis on it lol

i could use their big ass servers

shit tahts actually a rly good idea i bet i could do that

[cursive charm]

are you referring to what i said regarding services?

apparently, these are separate service groups, according to HKLM:\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Svchost

[balmy zealot]

Presumably you’re the one to ask about this. On NUMA systems, are the run queues divided according to so-called nodes?

[twilit smelt]

theyre usually divided on some other basis first before getting to the level of a node

like per-cpu or per cpu group

where "cpu group" could be equivalent to a numa node or it could be some other group of cpus, to strike a balance between the scalability of per-cpu runqueues and the balance/fairness of global runqueues

[warm pine]

he'll know all about that, i meant the mica stuff

[cursive charm]

oh, i see

[rare epoch]

What I don’t get about this diagram that isn’t the diagram for hybrid kernels is how a lot of microkernels work

[balmy zealot]

But are the queues isolated between nodes?

[cursive charm]

do you have a link to the posts he wrote by any chance, @warm pine?

[balmy zealot]

For example, when attempting to balance an idle core, shouldn’t we avoid accessing another node’s queue so as not to harm overall performance.

[rare epoch]

But I disagree with the whole sentiment about “hybrid” kernel being made up

My kernel is best described as a hybrid imo

The drivers and system services are in the user-space

But some of the system call interface is on the kernel-space

Monolithic - microkernel divide is too binary

Not everyone either put everything in the kernel space nor everything but the very basic memory management and IPC in the user space

[cursive charm]

it doesn't seem to be a well-defined term, which is the issue

[warm pine]

http://jdebp.uk/FGA/irql-myths-dispelled.html on IRQLs for instance

look at FGA/ for other things he has written at length about

[cursive charm]

alright. thank you!

[shadow ridge]

the world if IRQLs had literally any use

https://giphy.com/gifs/ABCNT-cyberpunk-abcnt-future-city-Z91qpcTGqUTcrlmWwI

[rare epoch]

IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL

[dense vigil]

Its a forever tainted word

[tame phoenix]

the 2000s ruined me. whenever someone says NUMA I think of some guy flailing his arms around to Europop

https://tenor.com/view/headphones-gif-4714741

[rare epoch]

Dragostea Din Tei ❤️

[balmy zealot]

In my understanding, they are most useful for so-called software interrupts, which allow only the lowest level to be preempted even without disabling interrupts at the scheduler level.

[rare epoch]

Honestly why do interruptible interrupts

Just cli and profit

I mean you don’t even need to do that if you set it right

Do nothing
Win

[cursive charm]

i guess i should figure out that one bug in the console server in NT 3.1 at some point

nvm, that person chuck brought up already has a page on it, lol: http://jdebp.uk/FGA/csrss-backspace-bug.html

[lucid umbra]

sounds like the 'orbit systems buys out xr/corp' discussion from a while back

[warm pine]

then they put mintyfs into linux somehow, port linux to xr arch, and that's the end of the story

[hollow musk]

on windows, the scheduler's locality unit is the scheduler subnode under a NUMA node (subnodes are re-used on heterogeneous systems as well)

each CPU points directly at its subnode and each ready queue is attached to a subnode, not to a whole node

when a CPU goes idle it first searches very locally, current subnode, then can widen to other subnodes in the same node, and after that to other nodes

the broader search is coordinated through search framework called "cooperative idle search"

when joining the cooperative search, it filters each target subnode with (1) non_parked_set & ~idle_cpu_set; (2) stealable_local_rqs | stealable_standby_threads; (3) stealable_shared_rqs; and for the local subnode it removes the current CPU and its own shared_rq_mask, so a remote subnode is only searched if it already advertises stealable work

so, it's not even starting from queues, instead it's starting from summary bitmaps that say, in effect, "this subnode has stealable work (local rq / standby* / shared rq" and since those summaries live on the subnode, the search layer is already NUMA node scoped
* windows first tries standby stealing if the target's standby state is a steal candidate, each CPU can have only 1 standby candidate

once inside the search the scheduler first asks the context for the next target in the current search generation (64 max - when a CPU joins, it allocates a new generation from, ORs this generation's filtered masks into the shared context, and sets its bit in SearchingProcessors - so multiple idle CPUs aren't all independently walking remote targets, an anti-contention optimization)

KiGetNextIdleSearchTargetInGeneration walks target entries that correspond to scheduler subnodes, if the target subnode is the caller's own subnode, it narrows the candidate processors to LLCMask & targetMask, basically prefer the same LLC before widening further

[mortal thunder]

do you think you can give me examples of what kind of kernel objects are fixed size arrays?

[mortal thunder]

i think you are underestimating your own design

[mortal thunder]

benefit of lucovsky's idea: you don't have to publish the source code to your modified linux distro

[mortal thunder]

the appeal is not using chromium or blink

i guess

[mortal thunder]

entire codebase of what, ladybird? because no, rust only makes 3% of ladybird's code, at least for now

[dense vigil]

Js engine

[warm mural]

have you described this before?

[cursive charm]

oh

[twilit smelt]

the notability rules are inconsistently enforced to some degree when it comes to software projects

but im on the side of "then get rid of all of them" more than i am "add everyone's"