MINTIA (not vibecoded) | Operating System Development | Page 12

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:42 AM

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right?

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:43 AM

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basically yes

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the wmb would ensure stuff inside the critical section cannot be reoredered to after the lock release

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:44 AM

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ok cool

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i figured but i thought id ask in case youd go like "nooooo this causes a common and very subtle issue known as poopenhagen's blunder its described in page 500 of this c++ textbook"

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:45 AM

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lol

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:45 AM

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so this is some more instructions i can eliminate

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really expensive ones too

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these extra wmbs

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:46 AM

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you dont care about stuff after the release being reordered to before the release right?

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:46 AM

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no

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:46 AM

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yeah should be fine

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:48 AM

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im using the dec alpha memory model where you get mb and wmb and everything aside from that is a fuzzy haze where literally anything goes

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which is scary

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dec alpha was technically in-order but could get apparent arbitrary reorderings anyway because of how the dcaches were laid out

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the alpha 21064 was dual issue

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and each pipe had its own dcache

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and the coherency between them within the core was obviously program order but very lazily so

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and from the perspective of other cores theyd go wildly out of sync all the time which resulted in apparent arbitrary reorderings of loads and stores

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:52 AM

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good thing its dead, id be too lazy to figure out how to work with it lol

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:53 AM

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its the only thing with solid yeses on the wikipedia chart

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:53 AM

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like

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u have to be insane to reorder dependent loads

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:53 AM

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that isnt even possible with just the reorderings from OoO but it is with this dual dcache setup

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OoO alone would not result in that iiuc

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its funny bc one of the later generations was quad issue

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and it had

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4 dcaches!

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so even more fun

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if your broken program happened to work before it def wouldnt on a system with those ones

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:56 AM

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dense vigil u have to be insane to reorder dependent loads

to this day there are still lots of special barriers and stuff scattered all around linux that are defined to an empty macro on everything but alpha

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they maintain this meticulously even with the brand new maple tree stuff and whatever

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dunno why

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there must be linux on alpha legacy users still

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:57 AM

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how is this port still alive

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:57 AM

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cuz ppl bought tons of alphas in the 90s and they were being sold until the early '00s

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:57 AM

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they literally dropped ia64 but this crap is still there

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:57 AM

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it seemed to have a bright future as late as like 2001 when it was unceremoniously dumped in fear of itanium

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it was the last risc standing

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x86 never beat the reigning alpha in performance, it won by default because the next gen alpha (which would have been the first SMT microprocessor) was cancelled

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i bet it would have eventually but its the only risc x86 didnt have a chance to kill in a performance knife fight

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:59 AM

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dense vigil they literally dropped ia64 but this crap is still there

microsoft originally planned to support Windows 2000 and Windows XP on alpha

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and we actually have an early build of XP for Alpha

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which is the latest "classic risc" windows nt build known

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:59 AM

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isnt that the one that u revivied or whatever

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 9:59 AM

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no that was the R3000 one which is the earliest one known

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:59 AM

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ah

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:00 AM

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ignore "windows 2000" this is in fact very early XP

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its very interesting that alpha had a solid future and didnt seem due to lose the performance wars just yet

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but itanium was so scary and all the suits were convinced it would kill their risc architectures

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:01 AM

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isnt that kind of cheating if u reorder literally everything and force software to deal with it

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:02 AM

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sure but it worked

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:02 AM

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ig lol

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:02 AM

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so itanium kills off alpha

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compels compaq (who had bought dec) to cancel the next gen alpha and lay off the team

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the alpha IP is sold to intel

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the team goes to AMD

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where they work on athlon and kill itanium

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sick!

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:03 AM

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thats good

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:03 AM

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the ghost of alpha got its vengeance

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altavista was run on alpha machines

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and they did some papers comparing performance of various nominally comparable servers in like 1999 and the alpha blew everything else out of the water still

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so it wasnt just on paper, its model really worked

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who knows what would have become of it later

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probably if compaq hadnt cancelled it it would have found a solid long-lived mainframe niche like POWER did, there are still ppl with alphas today and theyd still be buying new ones rather than slowly switching away

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thats my guess

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and i suppose HP would own it

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in tribute to alpha i have yoinked its monstrously evil memory model for my dumb fake computer

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also i guess its important to note that the mbs after acquiring a spinlock are not collapsable for adjacent spinlock acquisitions

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other cores have to observe you taking the spinlocks in the correct order or there could be deadlock i guess

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:21 AM

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will mintia support numa

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or would that require a rewrite

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:21 AM

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it would not

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:22 AM

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is that a yes

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:22 AM

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i dont plan to support numa but ive gone to some lengths to make it painless if i decide to

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for example my memory management state is isolated in "partition objects" (another idea shamelessly lifted from NT) and i can duplicate these for numa nodes

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almost everything that was global in old mintia is now in partition objects

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:22 AM

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ah ok, well it would seem fitting for it

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:22 AM

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each one has its own worker threads for page-out, its own pagefiles, etc

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its own page lists

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:22 AM

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do u support transparent migration between them?

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:23 AM

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i dont really have to worry about that yet thankfully

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:23 AM

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or like a page migration mechanism in general

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given a range of pages migrate them to a different range

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:23 AM

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dunno

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for now im just isolating the global state because thats the highest impact immediate thing i can do

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to avoid massive work later

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:24 AM

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yeah

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:24 AM

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dense vigil or like a page migration mechanism in general

this is used in a lot of places, like memory offlining, poisoning, etc

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so could be useful for u later on ig

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from what ive seen nt doesnt support offlining memory

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:25 AM

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if i support numa it probably wont be to the degree of like cellular irix

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ill do the high impact stuff like isolating the memory management state per numa node and add some basic awareness of it to the scheduler

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and duplicating kernel code and page tables across each node

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other than that i probably wont do much

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:25 AM

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fair

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:26 AM

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even that is 10000x more than youd expect for a shitty hobby kernel

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:26 AM

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maybe if it becomes more ubiquitous in the future

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:26 AM

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i feel like old mintia had a vms-y and like mid 80s vax aesthetic to me

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whereas mintia2 feels more akin to like itanium or something if that makes sense lol

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anyway numa support would feel at home in the latter so its probable

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that ill support it at some point

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ill probably work on this for like 15 years

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:27 AM

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probably not once u get a real job

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and your focus shifts

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:28 AM

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i didnt say at the same rate

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:28 AM

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true

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:28 AM

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also i might just never get a cs job

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:28 AM

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damn all that effort for nothing

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why not

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 10:28 AM

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i didnt do any of this to get a job

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i did it cuz im extremely autistic and obsessed with old computers

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the idea of leveraging it for work opportunities didnt come up until more recently and kind of distresses me

hybrid condor Jul 2, 2025, 1:00 PM

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twilit smelt for example my memory management state is isolated in "partition objects" (anoth...

If you know about NT on non NUMA, are partitions used there?

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what do they hold?

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 1:35 PM

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hybrid condor If you know about NT on non NUMA, are partitions used there?

they are used there

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its just theres only one of them

dapper mulch Jul 2, 2025, 1:37 PM

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I'm more concerned with HMP than NUMA. Don't you have plans to target arm64 julysky?

sterile frost Jul 2, 2025, 1:39 PM

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amd64 sounds more likely

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but afaik compiler rewrite comes first

night needle Jul 2, 2025, 3:44 PM

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arm KEKW

dapper mulch Jul 2, 2025, 3:51 PM

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said a "riscv shill" KEKW

digital pivot Jul 2, 2025, 5:58 PM

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dapper mulch I'm more concerned with HMP than NUMA. Don't you have plans to target `arm64` ju...

HMP?

night needle Jul 2, 2025, 6:28 PM

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dapper mulch said a "riscv shill" <:KEKW:913708372329644042>

correct chad

warm pine Jul 2, 2025, 6:52 PM

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digital pivot HMP?

His Majesty's Prison

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some of the notorious ones include HMP Belmarsh, HMP Wakefield, and HMP Frankland

twilit smelt Jul 2, 2025, 7:34 PM

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If mintia's so good why is there no

night needle Jul 2, 2025, 7:41 PM

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good point

hybrid condor Jul 2, 2025, 8:33 PM

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twilit smelt they are used there

Where are apps mapped to if there are >1 partitions?

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Well, at some point I'll be sure to commit it

sterile frost Jul 2, 2025, 8:49 PM

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probably the memort partition associated with the given process

digital pivot Jul 2, 2025, 8:54 PM

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dense vigil from what ive seen nt doesnt support offlining memory

whats that?

sterile frost Jul 2, 2025, 9:06 PM

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marking a memory range as offline

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and migrating any physical pages away from it

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idk if the 2nd part is required or not

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i guess that depends on the implementation

sterile frost Jul 2, 2025, 9:07 PM

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sterile frost marking a memory range as offline

generally used for memory hotswap

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before you pull the ram stick you first might want to make sure nothing is using it

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:17 PM

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sterile frost idk if the 2nd part is required or not

it is ofc

sterile frost Jul 2, 2025, 9:17 PM

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yeah it didn't make a whole lot of sense

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but tbh i kinda see myself implementing it like if memoryInUse: return EBUSY

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:19 PM

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thats kinda your only solution if it contains any non movable allocations

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but usually memory that you plan to how swap u only allow movable allocations

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aka userspace stuff

digital pivot Jul 2, 2025, 9:24 PM

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then nt should be able to know how to offline memory since it supports unplugging (for hyperv only tho)

mortal thunder Jul 2, 2025, 9:29 PM

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dense vigil but usually memory that you plan to how swap u only allow movable allocations

well there are a few things to keep in mind

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such as

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what if the page is referenced in multiple places

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either by COW or by page cache

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 9:32 PM

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yeah, those are solved in linux but i dont know the details

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it reuses the generic page migration mechanism used in a lot of places

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compaction, numa balancing, numa migration, etc

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all use it

dapper mulch Jul 2, 2025, 9:56 PM

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dense vigil aka userspace stuff

wouldn't any pageable memory fit this criterion?

sterile frost Jul 2, 2025, 10:14 PM

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mainly userspace stuff

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but yes

dense vigil Jul 2, 2025, 10:41 PM

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dapper mulch wouldn't any pageable memory fit this criterion?

well linux doesnt page kernel stuff

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so yes

twilit smelt Jul 3, 2025, 5:35 PM

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this is my SMP safe way to get a pointer to the current thread

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on xr17032 specifically

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one cashew to whoever can correctly guess what this is doing and why it works

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compiles to code like this

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so there must be a page mapped to the end of the address space. but how on earth is that SMP safe! what happens if multiple cores do this!

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what on earth!

teal trench Jul 3, 2025, 5:54 PM

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software-filled tlb shenanigans?

twilit smelt Jul 3, 2025, 5:55 PM

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teal trench software-filled tlb shenanigans?

teal trench Jul 3, 2025, 5:55 PM

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😋

twilit smelt Jul 3, 2025, 5:55 PM

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each core has a wired tlb entry set to map the final page to a per-core data area

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so it maps a different page on each one

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and it doesnt matter if you get migrated between calculating the pointer to it and loading the thread pointer, itll still be you

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im thinking of making it the second-to-last page rn though because its a little dangerous to have something mapped within a page of the null pointer in either direction

teal trench Jul 3, 2025, 5:59 PM

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how exactly does the tlb work on xr? does the hw help you pick the tlb entry to replace?

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if so, how do you pin the entry for this in place?

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i recall the tlb miss handler being short so that logic is not there

twilit smelt Jul 3, 2025, 6:00 PM

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theres two tlbs, one for data one for instructions, they have duplicated control registers but both work the same so ill just talk about the data one

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theres a control reg DTBINDEX which contains the index of the next tlb entry to replace

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basically when you write a tlb entry, it automatically increments, so theres a FIFO policy

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when it wraps to 0, it jumps to 4

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so entries 0-3 arent replaced

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you can explicitly set it to one of those and then write a tlb entry to cause a wired tlb entry to be created

teal trench Jul 3, 2025, 6:02 PM

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ah interesting

twilit smelt Jul 3, 2025, 6:04 PM

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#

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those are the wired entries in the itlb and dtlb under mintia2

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the "exception block" page is wired to 0xA0000000 in the ITLB

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contains exception handlers, including the tlb miss handlers themselves

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if it wasnt wired youd get an infinite tlb miss loop

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and in the DTLB the page directory is wired into the recursive page table and theres also the per-cpu area

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the page directory mapping is also necessary to avoid infinite tlb miss loop

teal trench Jul 3, 2025, 6:06 PM

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makes sense

twilit smelt Jul 3, 2025, 6:06 PM

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this is partly from MIPS

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MIPS being easier than x86 kind of falls apart as soon as you look at the kernel mode architecture

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x86 is 100% easier there

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for example as far as paging goes u just have to set cr3 and ur done

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xr17032 equivalent of mov cr3, eax looks like this

dense vigil Jul 4, 2025, 11:48 PM

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@twilit smelt how good is this https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/s/oe4KiTvCfI

From the osdev community on Reddit: Just Finished My Toy 32-bit x86...

Explore this post and more from the osdev community

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Says demand paging

twilit smelt Jul 4, 2025, 11:57 PM

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Am I osdev Gordon Ramsay now

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It's incredibly bad

dense vigil Jul 4, 2025, 11:59 PM

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Why lol

dense vigil Jul 4, 2025, 11:59 PM

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twilit smelt Am I osdev Gordon Ramsay now

Yes

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The key features looks like chatgpt

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:00 AM

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It has literally no locks

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Interrupts are disabled in the kernel and it is uniprocessor

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:01 AM

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Damn didn't take you long to evaluate

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:01 AM

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What is happening here

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:01 AM

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dense vigil Damn didn't take you long to evaluate

I was able to determine that within literally seconds

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:01 AM

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twilit smelt What is happening here

What the fuck

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:02 AM

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There's inappropriate inline assembly everywhere

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My superpower is being able to tell whether a kernel project is shit within 3.6 seconds with 90% accuracy

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:02 AM

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Looks like scheduling is tied to pit

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:02 AM

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twilit smelt My superpower is being able to tell whether a kernel project is shit within 3.6 ...

Yeah

devout geyser Jul 5, 2025, 12:03 AM

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and development was relatively fast because I can reference code from early linux!

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:03 AM

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Wait did they really say that

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:04 AM

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twilit smelt What is happening here

Higly doubt Linux did whatever this is ever

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:04 AM

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Early Linux would have been a mid project here

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Like first year or two

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:05 AM

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Yeah it was kind of a mess

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And the codestyle was huge statements without empty lines

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Also depends what early Linux means ofc

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:06 AM

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Their vfs

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:06 AM

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What the actual fuck lmfao

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:06 AM

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It's junk

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U tarnished my soul by forcing me to evaluate this

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:07 AM

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twilit smelt

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:07 AM

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twilit smelt U tarnished my soul by forcing me to evaluate this

Sorry I didn't expect it to be this bad

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It said demand paging so I expected something serious lol

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:09 AM

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I didn't even see demand paging

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I saw """"""COW""""""

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No demand paging unless I misread their mess

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:10 AM

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Like

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It even says mapped to disk so like

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It implies swap and stuff

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:12 AM

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That's just a lie it doesn't do anything

earnest zenith Jul 5, 2025, 12:12 AM

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dense vigil <@783460822525149196> how good is this https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/s/oe4KiTvC...

rule of thumb: if the OS project has the numbers 95 or 98 in it, there's a good chance it's terrible

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:13 AM

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Is it supposed to mean windows 98

earnest zenith Jul 5, 2025, 12:13 AM

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probably a reference to Windows 98

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:14 AM

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If it did nt larp that'd be funny

earnest zenith Jul 5, 2025, 12:14 AM

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bruh

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:14 AM

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With this level of competence

earnest zenith Jul 5, 2025, 12:14 AM

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alr the main function

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:14 AM

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earnest zenith bruh

Uhhh

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:14 AM

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dense vigil

Lies

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Already comment on the post from someone who didn't read the code and took it at face value from the feature list

earnest zenith Jul 5, 2025, 12:15 AM

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dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:15 AM

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twilit smelt Already comment on the post from someone who didn't read the code and took it at...

Lmfao

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:15 AM

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It doesn't even have a buffer cache or any filesystem IO at all

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It only has the hardcoded tty thing

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:15 AM

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So easy to farm engagement on that subreddit

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:15 AM

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@nocturne sentinel you goofed

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:16 AM

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dense vigil <@783460822525149196> how good is this https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/s/oe4KiTvC...

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:16 AM

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Who needs more

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sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:16 AM

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trollartistic

earnest zenith Jul 5, 2025, 12:16 AM

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they're in this subreddit

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:17 AM

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earnest zenith

What does this mean btw

earnest zenith Jul 5, 2025, 12:17 AM

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMaster_University

McMaster University

McMaster University (McMaster or Mac) is a public research university in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. The main McMaster campus is on 121 hectares (300 acres) of land near the residential neighbourhoods of Ainslie Wood and Westdale, adjacent to the Royal Botanical Gardens. It operates six academic faculties: the DeGroote School of Business, Enginee...

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tho tbf

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half of the people at my uni also overuse ChatGPT

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:18 AM

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Like u generate that crappy feature list and don't even remove outright lies

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:20 AM

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i read a bit more through that kernel and it seems this guy doesn't have an assert macro

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it's just if (some_thing_that_should_not_happen) printk("Warning: something happened");

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:21 AM

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Maybe they don't know of such a concept

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As an assertion

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:21 AM

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that's sad

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:22 AM

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At least they get free osdev reddit points

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:23 AM

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i wish i could go back to when i just wrote code and didn't know any better

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i could actually run bash with somewhat demand paged userspace Sadge

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:23 AM

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Simpler times lol

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:23 AM

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no that was 2 years ago

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:24 AM

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Lmao

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:24 AM

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not much has changed since then

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except for my inability to write code that works

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😭

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:24 AM

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Naah its just lack of motivation

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:26 AM

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#define NR_TASKS 64
#define TASK_SIZE       0x04000000

#if (TASK_SIZE & 0x3fffff)
#error "TASK_SIZE must be multiple of 4M"
#endif

#if (((TASK_SIZE>>16)*NR_TASKS) != 0x10000)
#error "TASK_SIZE*NR_TASKS must be 4GB"
#endif```

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???

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:27 AM

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What the hell do they store in the task lmao

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:27 AM

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the stack

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they put

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64 tasks

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with their stacks

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in the bss

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WHAT

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:27 AM

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Uhh

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:27 AM

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just when i thought i've seen it all

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union task_union {
    struct task_struct task;
    char stack[PAGE_SIZE];
};```

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:28 AM

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The type of slop chatgpt can produce

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:28 AM

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its a union as well

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inexplicably

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:28 AM

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twilit smelt its a union as well

Loooool

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:28 AM

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why is the kernel stack in a union with the task struct

odd swallow Jul 5, 2025, 12:28 AM

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sterile frost with their stacks

RTOSmaxxing

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:28 AM

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my channel has been taken over by viciously bullying some 13 year old's first project

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:28 AM

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i love how you can just stack overflow and overwrite your own ldt

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struct task_struct {
    long state;
    long counter;
    long priority;
    long pid;
    struct task_struct      *p_pptr;
    struct desc_struct ldt[3];
    struct tss_struct tss;
};```

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beautiful

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:29 AM

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twilit smelt my channel has been taken over by viciously bullying some 13 year old's first pr...

They literally go to a uni

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:29 AM

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oh

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:29 AM

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Or have graduated already

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:29 AM

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crazy

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:29 AM

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"Researcher @ McMaster University" apparently

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:29 AM

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i hope not a CS major

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hopefully like an economics major

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right

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:30 AM

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sterile frost ```c struct task_struct { long state; long counter; long priority; ...

Ldt is the most important field

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Gotta have an ldt

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Also tss.. does it do hw tasking or something

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No way right

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:32 AM

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#define switch_to(n) {\
    struct {long a,b;} __tmp; \
    __asm__("cmpl %%ecx,current\n\t" \
            "je 1f\n\t" \
            "movw %%dx,%1\n\t" \
            "xchgl %%ecx,current\n\t" \
            "ljmp *%0\n\t" \
            "1:" \
            ::"m" (*&__tmp.a),"m" (*&__tmp.b), \
            "d" (_TSS(n)),"c" ((long) task[n])); \
}```

#

hard to say

#

i don't even want to know what this does tbh

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:33 AM

#

Waait

odd swallow Jul 5, 2025, 12:33 AM

#

its reloading segments no?

#

meme

#

hm crickey

cunning mortar Jul 5, 2025, 12:34 AM

#

@sterile frost hey stop bullying children, let's add ECAM support to CSMWrap

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:34 AM

#

cunning mortar <@796462670995390524> hey stop bullying children, let's add ECAM support to CSMW...

unfortunately its a fully grown adult

cunning mortar Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

i am starting to think you can only fiddle with P2SB using ECAM

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

cunning mortar <@796462670995390524> hey stop bullying children, let's add ECAM support to CSMW...

Its a researcher in a uni

#

Literally

cunning mortar Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

welp

nocturne sentinel Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

twilit smelt <@1046651156581072946> you goofed

what'd I goof

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

cunning mortar <@796462670995390524> hey stop bullying children, let's add ECAM support to CSMW...

it's already a pr

#

by fly i think

cunning mortar Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

wheeeeeeeeere

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

nocturne sentinel what'd I goof

you praised that kernel in a comment on the post before reading the code

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

draft

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

youd know the list of features was 100% lie

cunning mortar Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

it's not a PR, draft or otherwise

nocturne sentinel Jul 5, 2025, 12:35 AM

#

twilit smelt you praised that kernel in a comment on the post before reading the code

oh it just sounded good so I tried to give support, didn't bother reading 😭

#

what's wrong with it

#

I'll have a read now

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:36 AM

#

Yeah just scroll KEKW

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:36 AM

#

nocturne sentinel what's wrong with it

it would be faster to list what isnt wrong with it

#

it presumably builds correctly

#

thats it

sterile frost Jul 5, 2025, 12:36 AM

#

mcfg tree i think

#

sorry

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:36 AM

#

twilit smelt 2. thats it

You can run up to 64 tasks

#

If you don't use their stacks

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:37 AM

#

dense vigil 3. You can run up to 64 tasks

meh old unix kernels had tons of fixed size tables

#

including the process table and stuff

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:37 AM

#

See ain't so bad trl

cunning mortar Jul 5, 2025, 12:37 AM

#

sterile frost mcfg tree i think

that doesn't have ECAM implemented

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:37 AM

#

twilit smelt meh old unix kernels had tons of fixed size tables

until early 90s that was a huge thing

#

one of the selling points of the NT kernel by contrast to unix was "dynamically sized system tables"

#

"no mysterious limits! everything grows to fill available memory!"

nocturne sentinel Jul 5, 2025, 12:38 AM

#

twilit smelt

what the fuck

#

oh wow I really did goof

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:38 AM

#

Did you see the page allocator

nocturne sentinel Jul 5, 2025, 12:38 AM

#

no 😭 I'll have a look

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:38 AM

#

Its some inline asm thing

#

I have no idea what its doing

nocturne sentinel Jul 5, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

tf is PAGING_PAGES 😭

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

@covert hound what's paging pages

#

parker wrote this kernel btw

#

@covert hound WHY DID YOU CALL IT THAT

covert hound Jul 5, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

Buddy you’re going to have to pay me to explain that.

odd swallow Jul 5, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

nocturne sentinel tf is `PAGING_PAGES` 😭

theyre using recursive mapping

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

twilit smelt parker wrote this kernel btw

Really?

odd swallow Jul 5, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

which is fine ig

covert hound Jul 5, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

To explain it to you would be a Herculean task

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

dense vigil Really?

no

#

this is just a friend of mine im bullying

covert hound Jul 5, 2025, 12:40 AM

#

You feeble minded FOOL

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:40 AM

#

covert hound To explain it to you would be a Herculean task

its beyond us

covert hound Jul 5, 2025, 12:40 AM

#

It’s time you accept that and move on

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:41 AM

#

I commend you for your inline asm allocator design

#

Its truly genius

blissful smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:41 AM

#

high readability

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 12:41 AM

#

dense vigil I commend you for your inline asm allocator design

he doesnt know what youre talking about i just invited him for moral support

nocturne sentinel Jul 5, 2025, 12:41 AM

#

oh my god they use libc based include headers for the kernel 😭

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 12:41 AM

#

sad

nocturne sentinel Jul 5, 2025, 12:42 AM

#

idk why but this always hurts me

#

there are stubs. Then there's this stub.

odd swallow Jul 5, 2025, 12:48 AM

#

nocturne sentinel oh my god they use libc based include headers for the kernel 😭

redefine stdarg

#

ends up insane

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 2:54 AM

#

okay

#

so

#

we missed something

#

in the experimental/ directory there is a buffer cache and minix fs driver

#

they may even work

#

however i looked at the minix fs driver in linux 0.99 on bootlin elixir

#

its just plagiarized

#

its like rewritten one-to-one looking at the ancient linux sources

#

#

"kernel98" on the left, linux on the right

#

its all like this

#

a lot of the inline assembly is stuff copied one-to-one from old linux

#

#

what would happen if i make weekly "quality watch" posts on r/osdev where i go over all the posts from the previous week and point out how they suck or dont suck

#

in great detail

cunning mortar Jul 5, 2025, 3:02 AM

#

that would be nice tbh

#

but also likely would be poorly received by that community lol

#

maybe good for our community, but not there

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 3:09 AM

#

cunning mortar but also likely would be poorly received by that community lol

yeah theyd probably go "youre taking it too serious people are just trying to have fun man!" cuz theyre wimps

odd swallow Jul 5, 2025, 3:20 AM

#

twilit smelt what would happen if i make weekly "quality watch" posts on r/osdev where i go o...

i would upvote it

#

make alt accounts and create fake fans eager to watch your content

#

so then people are like "wow, this guy, he's being supported by totally-not-an-alt he must be saying truth"

#

then the redditors will graduate into actual OS philosophers

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:07 AM

#

@twilit smelt how does hardware IPL setting in mintia work exactly? I see you're setting the hardware IPL on interrupt entry and restoring it on exit, but what if you raise to IPL high then get an interrupt (that's possible since the hardware one isn't set yet) then it sets the hardware one to high and now you don't ever get other interrupts and the IPL is stuck there

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:09 AM

#

warm mural <@783460822525149196> how does hardware IPL setting in mintia work exactly? I se...

basically i pat the steak dry and then i season it with some salt and stuff which i knead into it gently and i let it sit for a little bit before i throw it on the grill

#

the problem youre describing cant happen because interrupts are disabled at the point where i raise hardware ipl

#

i also dont fully understand what youre talking about

#

but it sounds like something that cant happen because interrupts are disabled at the point where i set the hardware ipl register

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:11 AM

#

twilit smelt i also dont fully understand what youre talking about

Your raise and lower ipl only set the software stuff right?

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:12 AM

#

warm mural Your raise and lower ipl only set the software stuff right?

yes, i NEVER use them to raise into a hardware ipl or lower from hw to sw ipl

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:12 AM

#

And the hardware IPL seems to get updated on every interrupt based on that value

#

but if the IPL is high, that means that the hardware IPL will be kept high since further interrupts will get blocked and that update won't happen

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:13 AM

#

huh

#

i still dont get what you mean

#

see OS/Executive/HalXr/HalInterrupt.jkl

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:14 AM

#

https://github.com/xrarch/mintia2/blob/main/OS%2FExecutive%2FHalXr%2FHalInterrupt.jkl#L152

#

What if oldipl is high here

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:15 AM

#

its not

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:15 AM

#

Then when you set the hardware IPL back at the end of the handler it's gonna be high

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:15 AM

#

ever

#

why would it be

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:15 AM

#

Because interrupts are not disabled in RaiseIpl?

#

Unless they are and I misunderstand the code

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:16 AM

#

i would never raise to high ipl in KiRaiseIpl

#

thats a hardware ipl

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:16 AM

#

why not

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:16 AM

#

i dont raise to those with that

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:16 AM

#

Ah

#

ok that makes sense

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:16 AM

#

i only use KiRaiseIpl and KiLowerIpl to move between LOW, APC, and DPC

#

levels

#

(by far the most common transitions to make)

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:16 AM

#

Yeah ok that makes sense

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:16 AM

#

thats why theres separate HalRaiseHardwareIpl and HalLowerHardwareIpl which do the full thing

#

and are slower

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:17 AM

#

yeah then you can keep the raise and lower short

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:19 AM

#

KiRaiseIpl is now a macro in fact

#

#MACRO KiRaiseIpl ( ipl ) [
    NOTHING KI_CURRENT_PRB_LOCAL^.Ipl

    KeAssert ( KI_CURRENT_PRB_LOCAL^.Ipl <= ipl )

    NOTHING KI_CURRENT_PRB_LOCAL^.Ipl = ipl

    BARRIER
]

#

(where BARRIER is a compiler barrier and doesnt cause a memory barrier instruction to be generated, dont get confused)

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:19 AM

#

No more assembly :(

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:19 AM

#

KiLowerIpl is still in asm

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:20 AM

#

because it does more stuff?

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:20 AM

#

yeah

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:20 AM

#

So you want to ensure it's as short as possible

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:20 AM

#

i experimented with inlining it but it bloated code size too much

#

which was detrimental to icache

#

so i only inlined the shorter KiRaiseIpl

#

which saves two instructions (the call and return)

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:22 AM

#

Now that I've seen that way of doing ipl vs purely hardware It'd be interesting to compare how much overhead there really is with mov cr8 and self IPI on software interrupts (on actual hardware)

#

Cuz to me the software way seems way better but idk

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:22 AM

#

i also inlined KiReleaseSpinlock

#MACRO KiReleaseSpinlock ( spinlock ) [
    BARRIER

    // Memory barrier to ensure old writes are committed.

    INSERTASM "wmb"
    BARRIER

    // Set spinlock un-owned.
    
    NOTHING (spinlock)^ = 0
    BARRIER
]

#

but didnt inline KiAcquireSpinlock

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:23 AM

#

why not

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:23 AM

#

same reason

#

too long

#

also the ll/sc sequence is inexpressible in current jackal

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:23 AM

#

need to add __atomic

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:23 AM

#

// a0 - spinlock
KiAcquireSpinlock:
.global KiAcquireSpinlock

    // Common case: non-contended.

.retry:
    ll   t0, a0
    bne  t0, .spin
    sc   t0, a0, a0
    beq  t0, .spin

    // Memory barrier to ensure reads in the critical section don't see stale
    // junk.

    mb

    ret

    // Spin until free without using atomics since they may incur more cache
    // coherency traffic.

.spin:
    pause
    mov  t0, long [a0]
    bne  t0, .spin
    b    .retry

#

heres the fox32 version

#

(its empty there is no smp fox32 so theres no spinlock on fox32. its unimplementable anyway because fox32 lacks atomics.)

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:26 AM

#

the spinlock is HalDisableInterrupts

#

meme

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:26 AM

#

fox32 is one of the biggest reasons i went out of my way to conditionalize all the smp code because theres no use having that all there bloating the codepaths

#

on the fox32 build

#

so mintia2 generates really tight code on uniprocessor builds, even compared to old mintia thanks to the inlining and stuff

#

ESPECIALLY on fox32 mostly due to jackal compiler's fox32 backend being ~infinitely better than df compiler's

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:27 AM

#

what's good about it being your own arch too is you can optimize your code better compared to something like fox32, where you would know less about the internals and it'd be a bit trickier to optimize for without reading the emulator code

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:28 AM

#

i do understand the emulator code on fox32 very well

#

mostly because ive had to debug it a lot

#

im ryfox's QA team

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:29 AM

#

Truly like NT engineers collaborating with intel

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:30 AM

#

#

look how good that codegen is

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:31 AM

#

That looks similar to x86

#

I wonder if you could save much space with more aggressive optimizations, like is the code it's emitting still a bit stupid or is it pretty optimized?

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:33 AM

#

the above is pretty well optimized

#

it would be difficult to hand-write it any shorter than that

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:34 AM

#

I guess it depends on the Jackal code

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:34 AM

#

there are dumber sequences being generated elsewhere

#

the goal with the compiler was not to make a compiler that can turn dumb jackal into good assembly

#

but a compiler that can express good code in jackal form

#

even if it requires some contortion in the source code

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:34 AM

#

If it's good enough it's good enough meme

#

Hopefully the new compiler project will give you free space savings tho

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:36 AM

#

that would be nice

#

i also appreciate that it's called "iron" which unintentionally fits in the rocks and minerals theme of like prism and gem and stuff

#

advancing the late 80s decwest larp by coincidence

#

coyote is the jackal frontend but the compiler infra is called iron

#

later theyre gonna do a frontend for their own (much fancier) language called mars and rewrite the compiler in it

#

so itll self host (which meets my requirement for the xrstation compiler to be self hosting on xrstation and fox32)

#

theyre already emitting some xr17032 assembly

#

hope they dont spontaneously lose motivation one day and never work on it again

#

seems to happen to other people a lot

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:41 AM

#

you could always "just" do an LLVM backend or something if the need arises which shouldn't be extremely hard I think

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:41 AM

#

that wouldnt self host for the simple reason that i couldnt fit an llvm-based compiler in 4mb of ram on xrstation

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:42 AM

#

True

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:42 AM

#

i could with page swapping but itd be so fucking bad

#

ideally one day ill be able to bring the larp full circle by writing mintia2 inside itself

#

which will only be practical if the compile times are reasonable

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 5:43 AM

#

Nah to bring the larp full circle you need hardware

#

Then develop on it

odd swallow Jul 5, 2025, 5:43 AM

#

gcc 2.0 ultrameme

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 5:44 AM

#

twilit smelt hope they dont spontaneously lose motivation one day and never work on it again

i have my own self hosting compiler luckily so i dont have any hard dependency on iron although itd be reaaaally great if they could take the burden of evil compiler shit off my hands

#

if they dont ill inevitably have to rewrite most of mine (everything but the frontend)

#

and thatll be annoying cuz i hate compilers

#

i always get inspired and go "WOWOWOWOW COMPILERS ARE COOL" when i read this stuff
https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/prism/mica/870827_DECwest_Compiler_Project.pdf
https://vmssoftware.com/docs/dtj-v04-04-1992.pdf#[{"num"%3A1010%2C"gen"%3A0}%2C{"name"%3A"Fit"}]

#

and then im working on a compiler

#

and its just misery

#

i dont enjoy it

#

every second i worked on the jackal compiler i wanted to scoop my eyes out of my head with a melon baller and bleed to death

#

but if iron doesnt pan out im inevitably going to revisit it at some point and spend probably several months revamping it

#

before i do the amd64 backend

#

"if you hate compilers so much then why are you doing all these compilers and not just retargeting a small c compiler or something" SHUUUUT UUUUUUUP

#

its the cool factor

#

if its not 100% from scratch THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT

#

ykwim

#

i finally reached a point where everything the kernel touches directly (architecture, emulator, language its written in, build system, etc) are all NIH'd

#

if i randomly give up 1 of those things what was the point of all the others

#

anyone with a worse kernel than mine should feel bad because they didnt even have to worry about writing debugging and maintaining all that other shit

#

this is me with a massive cartoon ball and chain shackled to both feet

teal trench Jul 5, 2025, 6:40 AM

#

sterile frost ```c union task_union { struct task_struct task; char stack[PAGE_SIZE]; ...

i copied code from linux 0.01 badge

nocturne sentinel Jul 5, 2025, 6:55 AM

#

twilit smelt what would happen if i make weekly "quality watch" posts on r/osdev where i go o...

I mean I think r/osdev has a very different demographic to here

#

it's mostly just:

hello world kernels or kernelspace shells that somehow get a dumb amount of attention; or
questions about stuff in docs like simple questions on setting up limine, "where do I start", etc - aka ppl who don't know how to use google

icy bridge Jul 5, 2025, 7:03 AM

#

twilit smelt What is happening here

https://github.com/zavg/linux-0.01/blob/5839d67d5825265fc665c9dc0ec2e767ff47a6dd/mm/memory.c#L37

GitHub

linux-0.01/mm/memory.c at 5839d67d5825265fc665c9dc0ec2e767ff47a6dd ...

Historically first (actually 0.01) release of linux kernel made by Linus Torvalds - zavg/linux-0.01

teal trench Jul 5, 2025, 7:09 AM

#

dense vigil Also tss.. does it do hw tasking or something

also copied from linux 0.01 :^)

#

it sounds like it's just linux 0.01 but buildable with a modern toolchain :^)

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 9:29 AM

#

twilit smelt a lot of the inline assembly is stuff copied one-to-one from old linux

Ah so thats where they got all the weird inline assembly

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 9:31 AM

#

icy bridge https://github.com/zavg/linux-0.01/blob/5839d67d5825265fc665c9dc0ec2e767ff47a6dd...

Jesus

night needle Jul 5, 2025, 9:32 AM

#

icy bridge https://github.com/zavg/linux-0.01/blob/5839d67d5825265fc665c9dc0ec2e767ff47a6dd...

i really need to stop doubting myself

#

everyone starts somewhere 😭

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 2:16 PM

#

There's a comment calling 9front one of the best operating systems

dense vigil Jul 5, 2025, 2:25 PM

#

What even is that

warm mural Jul 5, 2025, 2:25 PM

#

Isn't it like plan9 but "modern"

#

Yeah it's plan9 but maintained

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 6:01 PM

#

dude

#

the loongarch tlb refill scheme is almost identical to my old one from 2022

#

i thought i invented that

#

aisix tlb refill handler from 2022:

TLBMiss:
.global TLBMiss
    mtcr tbscratch, t0
    mfcr t0, pgtb
    mov  t0, long [t0]
    tbld t0, t0
    mtcr tblo, t0
    tbwr
    mfcr t0, tbscratch
    rfe

linux tlb refill handler for loongarch:

SYM_CODE_START(handle_tlb_refill)
    csrwr        t0, LOONGARCH_CSR_TLBRSAVE
    csrrd        t0, LOONGARCH_CSR_PGD
    lddir        t0, t0, 3
    ldpte        t0, 0
    ldpte        t0, 1
    tlbfill
    csrrd        t0, LOONGARCH_CSR_TLBRSAVE
    ertn

#

that is craaaaaaazy similar

#

almost line-for-line similar

#

im not joking

#

this is pure coincidence

#

its a really unique scheme too

#

my arch and loongarch are the only two ive ever seen do this

#

they just have lddir instead of tbld

#

which is a special instruction that folds together some of the work and helps evade a branch

#

which i thought i invented

#

what is going on here

#

me and some guy in china linked brainwaves like 3 years ago

#

ITS FUCKING

#

ALMOST THE SAME

#

DOWN TO THE DETAIL OF HOW THE CR'S ARE IMPLICITLY MODIFIED BY THE LDPTE AND LDDIR INSTRUCTIONS

#

WHAT THE FUCK

#

bros am i a victim of chinese espionage

covert hound Jul 5, 2025, 6:13 PM

#

Ni hao bai chi de wai guo ren

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 6:13 PM

#

LOONGSON SPY

#

the odds of coincidence occurring are actually insane im shook

#

jokes on them i already moved on to an even more magical tlb refill scheme

#

if the next generation loongson chips move to that scheme ill be convinced someone in china is a fan

#

okay nevermind

#

it turns out the loongarch tlb refill handler was committed to linux almost exactly 2 weeks before i committed mine to aisix

#

they did theirs on june 3 2022 mine was on june 14 2022

#

insane coincidence

#

i actually did synchronize brainwaves with a chinese engineer randomly in early 2022

devout geyser Jul 5, 2025, 6:58 PM

#

twilit smelt aisix tlb refill handler from 2022: ``` TLBMiss: .global TLBMiss mtcr tbscra...

😭

covert hound Jul 5, 2025, 10:39 PM

#

How do you pronounce mintia? Minsha? Minty-ah?

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 10:41 PM

#

last thing

heady bobcat Jul 5, 2025, 11:25 PM

#

twilit smelt What is happening here

isn't this literally copied from Linux?

twilit smelt Jul 5, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

heady bobcat isn't this literally copied from Linux?

it is yeah lol

#

some ancient early 90s linux code trying to optimize something the c compiler presumably did a bad job on back then

#

copypasted blindly

marble socket Jul 6, 2025, 9:40 PM

#

thats insane

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:42 AM

#

@twilit smelt thoughts on this https://github.com/asterinas/asterinas

GitHub

GitHub - asterinas/asterinas: Asterinas is a secure, fast, and gene...

Asterinas is a secure, fast, and general-purpose OS kernel, written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI. - asterinas/asterinas

oak spade Jul 9, 2025, 9:44 AM

#

lol

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:45 AM

#

lol

#

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:46 AM

#

The way their readme sounds is like its a commercial grade os

#

And the website

warm pine Jul 9, 2025, 9:46 AM

#

dense vigil <@783460822525149196> thoughts on this https://github.com/asterinas/asterinas

asterinas is just a rewrite in rust of SPIN

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:47 AM

#

What is that

warm pine Jul 9, 2025, 9:47 AM

#

Enforced modularity. Extensions are written in Modula3 [Nelson 91], a modular programming language for which the compiler enforces interface boundaries between modules. Extensions, which execute in the kernel’s virtual address space, cannot access memory or execute privileged instructions unless they have been given explicit access through an interface. Modularity enforced by the compiler enables modules to be isolated from one another with low cost

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:47 AM

#

weird

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:47 AM

#

Very strange

#

How would this be enforced if u can just slap an unsafe

#

And u have to in a lot of cases

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:49 AM

#

dense vigil <@783460822525149196> thoughts on this https://github.com/asterinas/asterinas

you can NOT tell me that the entire architecture dependent code is 10 lines

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:49 AM

#

Lol

warm pine Jul 9, 2025, 9:49 AM

#

dense vigil And u have to in a lot of cases

presumably they would ban it completely (which would gimp the OS considerably)

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:49 AM

#

all i see is cpuid parsing

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:49 AM

#

Same yeah

warm pine Jul 9, 2025, 9:49 AM

#

as it happens rust is also a ripoff of modula-3 https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/hosking/m3/reference/unsafe.html

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:50 AM

#

night needle all i see is cpuid parsing

And this has 3k stars

icy bridge Jul 9, 2025, 9:50 AM

#

night needle you can NOT tell me that the entire architecture dependent code is 10 lines

they seem to spread arch-dependent code around the kernel

#

for example there's syscall/arch/{riscv,x86}.rs

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:50 AM

#

...

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:50 AM

#

Bruh

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:50 AM

#

https://github.com/asterinas/asterinas/blob/main/kernel/src/syscall/arch/x86.rs

GitHub

asterinas/kernel/src/syscall/arch/x86.rs at main · asterinas/aster...

Asterinas is a secure, fast, and general-purpose OS kernel, written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI. - asterinas/asterinas

#

ew

#

that's such an odd way to do this

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:51 AM

#

Is there really no easier way to dispatch a table in rust?

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:51 AM

#

of course there is

#

idk why this is even a macro

#

they also pass args in a slice

warm pine Jul 9, 2025, 9:53 AM

#

For example, in the network TCP tests, Asterinas uses the smoltcp [22] library, which lacks congestion control, enabling TCP to operate at full speed and resulting in faster performance compared to Linux
what

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:54 AM

#

???

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:54 AM

#

What the fuck

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:54 AM

#

"we are using a bad library which doesn't do things correctly so it's faster"

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:54 AM

#

Lmfao

icy bridge Jul 9, 2025, 9:54 AM

#

apparently they're sponsored by intel or something

warm pine Jul 9, 2025, 9:54 AM

#

this is like saying you can get past a school with kids walking out the gats much more quickly if you drive at 90mph

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:54 AM

#

I kinda doubt they pushed the Linux network stack to its limits

#

Its optimized into oblivion

#

By corporations

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:55 AM

#

icy bridge apparently they're sponsored by intel or something

I wonder if this is bs lmfao

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:55 AM

#

they should sponsor managarm instead

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:56 AM

#

Managarm should use more loud words

#

And fake benchmarks

#

And say stuff like Linux killer etc

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:56 AM

#

🔥

#

blazing fast rust support

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 9:57 AM

#

Vibe coded Linux killer os surpassing Linux in benchmarks

#

Safe and microkernel based and blazing fast

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:58 AM

#

i should give up on my kernel and work on managarm

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 10:18 AM

#

or not idk

#

ill stop when i have KDE running

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 10:27 AM

#

see you in 10 years trl

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 10:27 AM

#

woe

#

i mean to be fair, this kernel that you posted has been worked on for more than 3 years

#

ive only been at it for a few months

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 10:29 AM

#

night needle i mean to be fair, this kernel that you posted has been worked on for more than ...

does it run kde?

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 10:30 AM

#

no lol

#

but it has more features

#

it's always intimidating to see big projects

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 10:49 AM

#

fair

#

kde is my goal also i guess

#

altough it requires probably tons upon tons of syscalls

#

and sysfs stuff

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 11:01 AM

#

dense vigil kde is my goal also i guess

it's not that hard to do from what i can see

#

sure you need a lot of linux interfaces

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 11:26 AM

#

not that hard, only needs an entire drm stack trl

#

on top of everything else

#

netlink too i think

cunning mortar Jul 9, 2025, 11:28 AM

#

i should get an intel sponsorship smh

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 11:29 AM

#

cunning mortar i should get an intel sponsorship smh

think of buzzwords for limine then

cunning mortar Jul 9, 2025, 11:29 AM

#

"lean and mean"

#

(leanmean -> limine)

queen torrent Jul 9, 2025, 11:43 AM

#

dense vigil kde is my goal also i guess

why is kde everyone's goals now

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 11:43 AM

#

i just like how it looks

#

and its kinda the ultimate "my os works" thing

queen torrent Jul 9, 2025, 11:43 AM

#

fair

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 11:45 AM

#

but my real (probably more achievable) goal was to run some sort of a 3d accelerated game on an igpu

#

that requires way less than kde

#

some misc syscalls and drm basically

queen torrent Jul 9, 2025, 11:49 AM

#

that'd be super cool

#

my uni break starts next week I should look into getting astral to compile again

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 12:00 PM

#

LETSFUCKINGGOOOOOO

shadow ridge Jul 9, 2025, 2:25 PM

#

dense vigil Vibe coded Linux killer os surpassing Linux in benchmarks

the vibe coded bootloader "limine killer"

#

someone should actually try that as a project

#

but no manual adjustments to the code

#

ai in, ai out

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 2:28 PM

#

nah just replace all occurences of limine to enimil

shadow ridge Jul 9, 2025, 2:29 PM

#

as the proud owners of our next gen AI powered bootloader with web 3 support, we are glad to announce the new $ENIMILCOIN that we totally wont pump and dump

#

features: nft support, enable a20, web 3.0, chatgpt integration, load gdt

twilit smelt Jul 9, 2025, 3:09 PM

#

dense vigil <@783460822525149196> thoughts on this https://github.com/asterinas/asterinas

We been seen it

#

It's not the worst project ever but it's overhyped

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 3:26 PM

#

uve seen every os

twilit smelt Jul 9, 2025, 3:30 PM

#

uve sounds like a bolivian fruit

queen torrent Jul 9, 2025, 3:45 PM

#

Its a letter away from grape in portuguese

#

uva

dapper mulch Jul 9, 2025, 4:17 PM

#

julysky, would you use 2MB pages to back the PFN array? Wouldn't it be too much of wasting?

twilit smelt Jul 9, 2025, 4:18 PM

#

There's an alternate universe where I'm the guy who makes asterinas and someone links me mintia in here and I reply 2.6 nanoseconds later "that's shit."

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 4:18 PM

#

dapper mulch julysky, would you use 2MB pages to back the `PFN` array? Wouldn't it be too muc...

Linux does

dapper mulch Jul 9, 2025, 4:18 PM

#

damn. 😁

twilit smelt Jul 9, 2025, 4:18 PM

#

dapper mulch julysky, would you use 2MB pages to back the `PFN` array? Wouldn't it be too muc...

Whether that's a waste or actually a memory saving (because you get rid of the leaf page tables) depends on what the phys mem layout looks like

#

If you have lots of contiguous physical memory then it's good

#

PCs do afaik

dense vigil Jul 9, 2025, 4:19 PM

#

Well it picks the size to use dynamically iirc

#

Depending on contiguous memory length

dapper mulch Jul 9, 2025, 4:19 PM

#

Exactly because of this contigousness not guaranteed, I asked.

twilit smelt Jul 9, 2025, 4:24 PM

#

also yeah you can determine it dynamically

#

You can probably figure out the ratio of physical pages that exist versus don't in an aligned 2mb area of PFN db for it to be a saving

#

And then mathemagically determine whether to do that or not

#

for each such area

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 8:41 PM

#

queen torrent why is kde everyone's goals now

why not lol

shadow ridge Jul 9, 2025, 8:41 PM

#

gnome

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 8:41 PM

#

gnome is basically unportable atm

#

kde actually runs on !linux

warm mural Jul 9, 2025, 8:51 PM

#

Gnome runs on BSD too

#

xfce would be cool tho, probs easier than kde

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:17 PM

#

probably, but I'm a fan of wayland myself

shadow ridge Jul 9, 2025, 9:18 PM

#

someone should make wayland but it actually works

blissful smelt Jul 9, 2025, 9:22 PM

#

warm mural xfce would be cool tho, probs easier than kde

once u xfce u can't backfce

#

cinnamon is cute too

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:22 PM

#

shadow ridge someone should make wayland but it actually works

?

shadow ridge Jul 9, 2025, 9:24 PM

#

night needle ?

last time i checked it didnt support nvidia cards

#

which is like your bootloader not supporting intel or something

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:24 PM

#

??????

#

what kind of nonsensical claim is that

shadow ridge Jul 9, 2025, 9:25 PM

#

night needle what kind of nonsensical claim is that

idk it's been years since i last checked

#

things might have changed

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:25 PM

#

i have been daily driving gnome with wayland on a 4070 since I've gotten it

shadow ridge Jul 9, 2025, 9:26 PM

#

night needle i have been daily driving gnome with wayland on a 4070 since I've gotten it

hmm

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 9:26 PM

#

also wayland has barely anything to do with the gpus themselves

#

if it doesn't work then that's a linux issue, not wayland

shadow ridge Jul 9, 2025, 9:29 PM

#

ig my system just doesnt play nicely with it

warm mural Jul 9, 2025, 10:47 PM

#

night needle ?

Some trivial stuff just doesn't work

#

Like screen sharing

night needle Jul 9, 2025, 10:47 PM

#

works for me

#

@zinc trout can confirm

zinc trout Jul 9, 2025, 10:49 PM

#

smooth sailing lol

#

pipewire + wayland strong ⬆️⬆️⬆️

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 5:40 AM

#

zinc trout pipewire + wayland strong ⬆️⬆️⬆️

theres this bug with pipewire on my system where

#

the input mix rate wont match up when i use audacity

#

and it causes pipewire to break

#

apparently this is a common issue with people with my sound card

#

🤷‍♂️

#

did find a way around it though

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 7:59 PM

#

is this project dead

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 7:59 PM

#

Yeah

#

The author died

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 7:59 PM

#

my condolences

#

did you know him?

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 8:00 PM

#

No im just a big fan

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 8:00 PM

#

I see

#

they mustve been a pretty shitty person, outsourcing all development to their fans and sitting at home collecting the rewards for themselves

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 8:00 PM

#

They had some issues

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 8:01 PM

#

do they have plans to continue the project in afterlife

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 8:01 PM

#

That would be difficult

#

They were blown

#

up

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 8:02 PM

#

is it possible that they blew up while getting pizza from a certain dominos

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 8:02 PM

#

They went to fight for the IDF and got killed by a Hamas RPG

#

🇮🇱 never forget our heroes

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 8:02 PM

#

how do you manage to get israel into every conversation lmao

#

you werent like this a few months ago

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 8:04 PM

#

I recently became aware of the terrorist existential threat to western values

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 8:05 PM

#

honestly id worry about the capitalist system thats fucking people in the us more than jews and arabs killing eachother thousands of kilometers away

#

since one of those effects the other more

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 8:05 PM

#

Capitalism is perfect

#

The only issues I see are terrorists and illegals

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 8:06 PM

#

twilit smelt The only issues I see are terrorists and illegals

and californians stinkin the place up by revolting against the government

#

our lord shall smite them with the military if they dont obey the rule of law

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 8:07 PM

#

Those are Americans exercising their rights. Don't be disgusting

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 8:08 PM

#

twilit smelt Those are Americans exercising their rights. Don't be disgusting

https://tenor.com/view/2-gif-7749019966943875056

Tenor

#

seriously though

#

no updates here in a while

#

are u just focused on doing work and not posting about it

twilit smelt Jul 10, 2025, 8:11 PM

#

I have other things in my lif

shadow ridge Jul 10, 2025, 8:12 PM

#

i see

twilit smelt Jul 14, 2025, 6:27 AM

#

mintia is garbag

#

i am deleting it and retiring from osdev for ever...

devout geyser Jul 14, 2025, 9:06 AM

#

nooo

shadow ridge Jul 14, 2025, 10:09 AM

#

twilit smelt i am deleting it and retiring from osdev for ever...

🥸

dapper mulch Jul 14, 2025, 4:49 PM

#

twilit smelt mintia is garbag

garbag collector.

twilit smelt Jul 15, 2025, 11:08 PM

#

other people get paging working. I get paging working. we are not the same

heady bobcat Jul 15, 2025, 11:16 PM

#

I shall have paged virtual memory within three years of today. Otherwise I quit osdev.

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 12:01 AM

#

tried running mintia at 20khz and it gets stuck here because the 100hz timer interrupt soaks up literally all available cycles

#

ok at 50khz we get somewhere

#

wonder what happens if i do 50khz and 8 cpus

#

#

@mortal thunder in case you ever wanted to see your fireworks test running at 100khz with 8 processors

#

the extra processors do actually help it scale despite the extremely low clock speed

#

with just 1 processor it cant even do that much with the fireworks lmfao

#

i consider this a win for my scheduler

#

"hey man you seem pretty busy lately are you sure youre not being overworked"
"oh you know same old same old"
same old same old:

wicked lichen Jul 16, 2025, 12:22 AM

#

based font choices

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 12:22 AM

#

twilit smelt <@700663172226482254> in case you ever wanted to see your fireworks test running...

mintia fireworks screensaver ⁉️

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 12:29 AM

#

This actually helped me find a problem in my scheduler

#

I noticed some of the CPUs were strangely idle while others had tons of threads enqueued to them

#

I looked at my once per second balance DPC and saw that it was only moving up to 16 threads before bailing out

#

Increased that to 100 and the problem went away. This was also cropping up at full speed but was something I didn't clock as being because of the balance work

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 12:34 AM

#

twilit smelt I looked at my once per second balance DPC and saw that it was only moving up to...

wouldnt it be better to scale the number of threads to move dynamically or nah

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 1:54 AM

#

blissful smelt wouldnt it be better to scale the number of threads to move dynamically or nah

well yeah it moves as many as needed until theres balance

#

(or until it has tried too many times and its time to give up)

#

also i just got a very funny deadlock

#

i just redid scheduler rebalancing and it seems to have had a crazy good effect on fireworks test scaling

#

so i decided to run it with 2000 firework particles at a time

#

that is, each firework explodes into 2000 particles

#

it ran fine for a while but eventually got jammed and that was very concerning

#

i noted that all of the fireworks disappeared and the screen went black which was reassuring that it wasnt a scheduler bug

#

(because then probably thered be lots of firework particles stuck in place)

#

when i looked into it i found that one of the firework threads was infinitely trying to wait for free pages

#

while holding a lock required for thread creation

#

several other threads were waiting for it to release that lock

#

but most importantly

#

the worker thread that was responsible for thread reaping was waiting for that lock so it could delete the TID

#

so it wasnt able to free up memory by reaping threads

#

which is why this other thread got stuck

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 2:03 AM

#

mintia screensaver design log

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 2:05 AM

#

the solution i guess is to be more careful about the reaper thread taking locks that are also held while allocating memory

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 2:25 AM

#

or i can change the order it releases resources in

#

in particular i can have it release all of the kernel stacks before it does anything else with the threads

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 2:42 AM

#

lol yeah that resolved the deadlock

#

the "reaper thread" isnt really its own thread, its a work item enqueued to the worker thread pool

#

and as soon as it pops the list of threads to be reaped and starts working on them, the reaper item can be enqueued again and be executed in parallel

#

so if the first one gets deadlocked while unreferencing the thread objects because of an unlikely situation where memory filled with thread objects and theres no free pages coming in from anywhere and stuff, and it is deadlocked with some other thread that is blocked for free pages while holding a lock taken by the thread object deletion codepath, a second reaper can come in and free all the kernel stacks and release the first one from its prison

#

it could happen that every single thread in the worker pool gets tied up by this and theres still a deadlock but its really unlikely

#

and this all becomes nullified as soon as there are resource limits and swapping to disk anyway

#

i never once encountered this deadlock in a hell of a lot of stress testing with old mintia even though i didnt do any of these measures to try to decrease its likelihood

#

because old mintia had page swapping by the time i was trying that stuff out

#

funny how much stuff "i dont want to panic on oom" adds to your kernel design

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:09 AM

#

#

also i did the thing

#

@warm mural i made some changes to my scheduler that made it way better at self-balancing, u might want to check out the recent commits cuz you were looking a lot at mine for yours

#

https://github.com/xrarch/mintia2/commit/87f06dd730b9cdd2429d2b695944f266316da980

GitHub

Ke: redesign processor rebalancing · xrarch/mintia2@87f06dd

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:13 AM

#

twilit smelt <@379432087620550658> i made some changes to my scheduler that made it way bette...

where do i find the vim syntax highlighting scripts for the jackal language

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:14 AM

#

they dont exist

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:14 AM

#

what IDEs are supported

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:14 AM

#

none

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:14 AM

#

twilit smelt

how is this happening

#

is this not jackal

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:14 AM

#

it is

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:14 AM

#

what about dragonfruit then

#

oh ok

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:14 AM

#

its a sublime text syntax i quickly made at some point

#

its bad

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:15 AM

#

have you considered writing a syntax highlighting grammar or regex or however its done

#

treesitter

#

i mean you built the compiler so there's gotta be some regex in there that's reusable

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:15 AM

#

i only made it so i didnt have to look at this

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:15 AM

#

blissful smelt i mean you built the compiler so there's gotta be some regex in there that's reu...

theres no regex in the compiler cuz the compiler is fully self hosting and that would require me to implement regex

#

the jackal toolchain is written 100% in jackal including build system

#

it has been run on fox32os

#

after using it to build itself for fox32

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:18 AM

#

did you boostrap it by first writing the compiler in Lua as well

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:18 AM

#

yes

#

lol

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:18 AM

#

i am struggling to find the language specification

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:19 AM

#

https://bsky.app/profile/ryfoxbread.bsky.social/post/3lc7zjmqtdc22

ry 🏳️‍⚧️ (@ryfoxbread.bsky.social)

writing and compiling a fox32os application *all inside fox32os*!! this is using Jackal, a custom high level language made by hyenasky.bsky.social
the text editor is Hjkl which was made by my friend Olive and is also written in Jackal: github.com/OliveIsAWord...
see my pinned for more fox32 details!

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:19 AM

#

do i just read the code and use my best intuition

#

i'm kinda bored i might write a syntax highlighter for jackal

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:20 AM

#

blissful smelt do i just read the code and use my best intuition

yeah theres no spec yet

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:20 AM

#

i had the basics of one going for a fantasy bad assembly syntax i made a while ago so i can copy some stuf

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:20 AM

#

#

theres a cover for a spec though

#

if that helps

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:22 AM

#

twilit smelt https://bsky.app/profile/ryfoxbread.bsky.social/post/3lc7zjmqtdc22

ryfox's fox32os is actually not that far from self hosting

#

its been perpetually like a handful of days of work away from self hosting for like a year

#

probably would be the first self hosting fantasy computer OS

#

unless you count oberon

#

as a fantasy computer

#

the work required i think is

#

well, fox32os is written primarily in two languages, fox32 assembly and okameron

#

the fox32 assembly it's written in is in the syntax of ryfox's own assembler

#

it would only take a few afternoons to migrate it to the syntax of the jackal toolchain assembler and rewrite the okameron bits in jackal

#

and then theoretically you could build fox32os from inside itself

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:29 AM

#

i dont really like vim script

#

comment highlighting still broked

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:33 AM

#

i legit just use nano and sublime text

#

and macos

#

have since i was like

#

11

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:34 AM

#

if it aint broke there is nothing to fix 😃 I use vim because I am extremely lazy

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:42 AM

#

wicked lichen based font choices

thanks by the way

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:53 AM

#

twilit smelt i legit just use nano and sublime text

😃 now i can read your code without getting a headache in vim

mortal thunder Jul 16, 2025, 3:53 AM

#

twilit smelt <@700663172226482254> in case you ever wanted to see your fireworks test running...

well, nice

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 3:53 AM

#

blissful smelt 😃 now i can read your code without getting a headache in vim

i might publish this once i finish this up idk

#

ok this is good enough for me, i will now look at header files

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:00 AM

#

blissful smelt 😃 now i can read your code without getting a headache in vim

youll get a headache anyway if youre looking at the compiler

#

(it is ass)

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:07 AM

#

regex is such hacky BS sometimes

#

"Yes doctor, I would like a

syn match   jklFieldAccess     /\<[A-Za-z_][A-Za-z0-9_]*\>\(\^\)\?\.\<[A-Za-z_][A-Za-z0-9_]*\>/``` please"

#

https://github.com/BlueGummi/jackal-syntax-vim ok if any vim users are tired of reading Jackal code with no highlighting here you go

#

I hope the regex is portable enoughish to copy to other text editors

#

this was a fun detour

#

might make one for dragonfruit later idk, I dont read that code as much

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:17 AM

#

dragonfruit is dumbfruit

#

there's nothing in dragonfruit that doesn't have a better implementation in jackal

#

other than the stuff yet to be implemented at all in jackal like fs drivers

#

but shut up.

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:19 AM

#

looks like a red dead redemption 2 loading screen

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:19 AM

#

twilit smelt dragonfruit is dumbfruit

were the syntax design choices due to compiler limitations

#

like att asm

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:20 AM

#

It was because i was 15 and heard rpn was easy to compile

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:22 AM

#

blissful smelt looks like a red dead redemption 2 loading screen

It's a bob ross painting

#

It was the first thing that i displayed on limnstation (later called xrstation) when it had a 2 bit grayscale display in like summer 2018

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:23 AM

#

so was that a monumental accomplishment and why the image is that

mortal thunder Jul 16, 2025, 4:46 AM

#

twilit smelt It was because i was 15 and heard rpn was easy to compile

Was it easier than normal order

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 4:54 AM

#

mortal thunder Was it easier than normal order

when it was a simple thing that just did this yeah

#

when i needed it to generate code that was like semi-not-horrible uhhh

#

no

#

not easier

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 5:39 AM

#

also id like to note

#

when i ran with 8 cpus at like 100khz

#

none of the scheduler spinlocks showed up in profiling at all

#

even at that insane extreme there was basically no contention

marble socket Jul 16, 2025, 1:07 PM

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twilit smelt other people get paging working. I get paging working. we are not the same

what does that mean

mortal thunder Jul 16, 2025, 1:30 PM

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marble socket what does that mean

it means he gets paging working while we get paging working

marble socket Jul 16, 2025, 1:31 PM

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brainbig

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 7:58 PM

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marble socket what does that mean

your paging: slapping ptes into tables and setting cr3
my paging: software tlb refil pageout to disk demand paging page cache

marble socket Jul 16, 2025, 7:59 PM

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twilit smelt your paging: slapping ptes into tables and setting cr3 my paging: software tlb r...

vro

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thats crazy

twilit smelt Jul 16, 2025, 7:59 PM

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lucid umbra Jul 16, 2025, 10:44 PM

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blissful smelt what IDEs are supported

i wrote a syntax highlighter for vscode a while back

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if u just search up "jackal language" in the extensions tab

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but its not incredible it mostly just highlights keywords and literals and such

blissful smelt Jul 16, 2025, 10:48 PM

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lucid umbra but its not incredible it mostly just highlights keywords and literals and such

it's ok i made one for vim and it's almost done except for highlighting variable types https://github.com/BlueGummi/jackal-syntax-vim

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 10:01 AM

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copypasted
so i didnt notice this but apparently the Multics Design Notebook has been mostly digitized. this is the internal design documents they wrote for multics before writing any code, and is what directly inspired the creation of the NT Design Workbook later:
https://multicians.org/biblio.html#mdn

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 12:20 PM

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note to self for later: when a thread handles a page fault on kernel space (like bringing in paged pool or code) it should probably raise its own priority floor to the lowest realtime level

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kind of a semi janky alternative to doing priority inheritance through page waits

digital pivot Jul 17, 2025, 1:10 PM

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twilit smelt kind of a semi janky alternative to doing priority inheritance through page wait...

what'd be a non semi janky way ?

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 4:05 PM

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digital pivot what'd be a non semi janky way ?

just doing priority inheritance with page waits

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probably reusing turnstiles

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:07 PM

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@blissful smelt

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wmb is a "write memory barrier" instruction on xr17032

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:07 PM

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ohhhh ok neat

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:07 PM

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x86 doesnt need barriers

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but something like this might be helpful on like ARM for example

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:08 PM

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so I could implement spinlock_release_two but just make it mostly a no-op on x86?

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souonds good

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:08 PM

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yeah other than releasing the two spinlocks

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lol

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i only even noticed the excess memory barriers cuz i was looking at assembly listings of my kernel

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while micro optimizing

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obsessively

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which is probably dumb cuz the compiler generates enough bad code that i cant do much about

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that the micro optimizations are probably lost in the noise

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:09 PM

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does the jackal compiler do any fancy optimization or nah

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:09 PM

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fancy? no

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it does some local optimization passes though

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:10 PM

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dead store elimination, constant folding and other stuff?

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:10 PM

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yeah

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:11 PM

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oh yeah as I'm discovering the keywords to your language, the syntax highlighting is becoming more complete. I might port this to treesitter or other editors soon so maybe you will find it useful? idk

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it's not a big deal or anything

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:12 PM

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example of a simple function vs what the jackal compiler generates for it

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so its not AWFUL

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its workable

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xr17032 lets you do shifts and rotations and stuff of the second register operand of every instruction that takes two source registers

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without doing an extra shift instruction

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and jackal compiler can do instruction selection for this

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:15 PM

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what is the NOTHING keyword?

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:15 PM

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so like

prb^.StashedCurrentThreadInfo =
  KiSetInteractivityInStash ( prb^.StashedCurrentThreadInfo, newinteractivity )

is really

prb^.StashedCurrentThreadInfo =
    (((prb^.StashedCurrentThreadInfo) & ~255) |
        (newinteractivity << 8))

and it generates this as

    mov t0, long [s0 + 244]
    subi t1, zero, 256
    and t0, t0, t1
    or t0, t0, s3 LSH 8
    mov long [s0 + 244], t0

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u can see the cool inline left shift (LSH) by 8 in the OR instruction

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it also generates the ~255 mask by doing t1 = zero - 256

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so its not outright moronic other than sometimes.

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:17 PM

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blissful smelt what is the NOTHING keyword?

its NOTHING

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exactly what it says

icy bridge Jul 17, 2025, 8:17 PM

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I wonder how difficult it'd be to write an llvm backend for xr17032 and an llvm based jackal compiler for performance comparison

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:18 PM

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idk but me and pitust brainstormed some ideas for making the emulator probably legit 10x faster

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:18 PM

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twilit smelt its NOTHING

#MACRO KiRaiseIpl ( ipl ) [
    NOTHING KI_CURRENT_PRB_LOCAL^.Ipl

    KeAssert ( KI_CURRENT_PRB_LOCAL^.Ipl <= ipl )

    NOTHING KI_CURRENT_PRB_LOCAL^.Ipl = ipl

    BARRIER
]
``` so what does it do here

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:18 PM

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blissful smelt ```rust #MACRO KiRaiseIpl ( ipl ) [ NOTHING KI_CURRENT_PRB_LOCAL^.Ipl K...

do you really want to know

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:18 PM

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yea 😃

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:18 PM

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you know how jackal has no semicolons

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that is to say, no statement terminator

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:19 PM

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yes

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:20 PM

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this creates a very evil problem

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:20 PM

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uh oh

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:20 PM

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because theres no indicator to stop expression parsing

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so for example

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a = b + c

parses fine, but if you do

a = b + c
(something)^.SomeField = 1

or something like that, itll parse it as

a = b + c(something)^.SomeField = 1

where c(something) is a function call, and itll error

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here the NOTHING token has the effect of indicating that the following open parenthesis is not a function call

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the KI_CURRENT_PRB_LOCAL macro contains an open parenthesis

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it is (CAST 0xFFFFC000 TO ^KiPrb)

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:23 PM

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oh deary, is the newline used as the statement terminator?

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:23 PM

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no

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so for example if you do

oldipl := KiRaiseIpl ( KI_IPL_DPC )

itll expand to

oldipl := NOTHING (CAST 0xFFFFC000 TO ^KiPrb)^.Ipl
NOTHING (CAST 0xFFFFC000 TO ^KiPrb)^.Ipl = KI_IPL_DPC

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in this position, the NOTHING is ignored

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however if you do

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if you naively do

a = b + c
KiRaiseIpl ( KI_IPL_DPC )

and it expands to

(CAST 0xFFFFC000 TO ^KiPrb)^.Ipl
NOTHING (CAST 0xFFFFC000 TO ^KiPrb)^.Ipl = KI_IPL_DPC

itll parse as

a = b + c(CAST 0xFFFFC000 TO ^KiPrb)^.Ipl

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which will cause a weird syntax error

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but if you add the NOTHING then basically the parser knows its a new statement and not a function call

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and that load will be elided

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:26 PM

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why did you choose to design the language without semicolon statement termination?

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:26 PM

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thats not actually specifically what NOTHING does

blissful smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:26 PM

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it looks pretty nice but is there another reason

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:26 PM

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but in that position thats the function it serves

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:26 PM

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blissful smelt it looks pretty nice but is there another reason

no it was just cuz i thought it looked better

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:27 PM

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twilit smelt thats not actually specifically what NOTHING does

the exact specification of NOTHING that me and sandwichman arrived at is that in the position of a statement, it has absolutely no effect

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following a binary operator or at the beginning of an expression, it also has no effect on parsing (its like its not even there)

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but in the specific location of where a unary operator might be

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like the ( for a function call for example

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it terminates expression parsing

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again this is the function it serves the actual way it works is way simpler but its more difficult to see how it accomplishes this

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this is the entire implementation of NOTHING in the jackal compiler

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at the start of each subexpression (such as the beginning of an expression or the second operand of a binary operator) the NOTHINGs are peeled away and ignored

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in any other location they cause expression parsing to terminate (because they are a statement and not an operator)

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and are then parsed as a statement that does nothing

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basically its like a really weird replacement semicolon

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specifically for this weird case of jackal macro behavior

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idk if i explained that well

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but basically youre meant to use it when you dont want a ( to spuriously parse as a function call of something in the previous statement

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should it have been called NOTHING? probably not

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because it actually does do SOMETHING

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sometimes

icy bridge Jul 17, 2025, 8:33 PM

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so it is nothing, but that doesn't mean it does nothing

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:33 PM

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yeah

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i sh ould have called it something more tongue in cheek like SEMICOLON

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its not actually equivalent to a semicolon though

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cuz you can do a = NOTHING b and have that parse as a = b

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(which is highly intentional)

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if you did a = ; b that wouldnt parse in C

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maybe could have called it STUPIDPARSER

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idk

heady bobcat Jul 17, 2025, 8:36 PM

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or just pass

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or null (except that might collide with other uses of 'null')

twilit smelt Jul 17, 2025, 8:37 PM

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its difficult to come up with a brief name that encompasses what it does

#MINTIA (not vibecoded)