Zinnia

[storm bobcat]

apparently it's pretty hard to port

according to marvin

[near tartan]

yes

according to serenity os

[storm bobcat]

maybe it's better now idk

[fair lintel]

speaking of, go would be funny

[silver birch]

what minecraft versions do you support?

[near tartan]

@marsh holly

[fair lintel]

@sick flax

[silver birch]

lol

the chain of porters

[storm bobcat]

go would probably be more useful than zig rn

[marsh holly]

astral ran up to 1.20 and gtnh

[sick flax]

brother I only have so much time

pay me for my time I can work on shit

[storm bobcat]

ghc/haskell could be funny

ocaml

[sick flax]

now I get fucked for minimum wage 8+ hours a day

[near tartan]

zig is just c with an unstable abi

[sick flax]

arsen was working on that once

[silver birch]

oh that's great then

[marsh holly]

yes but thats serenityos

[storm bobcat]

has ganoo emacs been ported yet?

[near tartan]

whats that

[sick flax]

emacs

no

[silver birch]

[sick flax]

cross compile pain

[near tartan]

oh gnu

am dum

[storm bobcat]

yeah its build system is cursed

I don't think they do the unexec thing anymore tho

[near tartan]

bsd emacs where

[silver birch]

hats off to yall tbh

[sick flax]

oh

thats good

[storm bobcat]

I don't think BSD existed when gnu emacs started

[sick flax]

but still

[marsh holly]

just built it on managarm 5head

[sick flax]

pay me full time for work on <insert os here>

[near tartan]

but is there anything other than gnu emacs

[sick flax]

and I will

[silver birch]

i cant be arsed to stare at autotools garbage and messing with cross compilations

[storm bobcat]

wdym

yeah

but none that are as comprehensive

microemacs, xemacs

[silver birch]

vs code?

[near tartan]

npm 💀

electron 💀

[marsh holly]

mlibc is pretty much fully self hosting too

[near tartan]

yeah

[marsh holly]

at this point the only thing preventing astral from compiling a distro of itself is kernel instability and speed ☠️

[storm bobcat]

afaik linus torvalds uses his own fork of microemacs to this day

[near tartan]

i think if we can get it upstreamed it might be a viable alternative to musl

[marsh holly]

musl? don't think too low little bro we are going to pass glibc

[near tartan]

no in terms of distro compat

since most software that has been patched to work with musl likely also fixes correctness bugs for mlibc

[storm bobcat]

https://linux.die.net/man/1/zile apparently this is a thing too lol

from GNU

[marsh holly]

yeah mlibc is musl but better

[near tartan]

trvth

i would totally use an mlibc gentoo

https://giphy.com/gifs/reaction-sign-cenat-DXh02um31S0iwumXSk

[silver birch]

managarm/linux

[storm bobcat]

@near tartan there's also this https://github.com/emacs-ng/emacs-ng

but I think it's dead

[near tartan]

damn

[storm bobcat]

https://github.com/remacs/remacs

also rust emacs

[near tartan]

funny

[marsh holly]

chop chop

[near tartan]

fym

[marsh holly]

talk is cheap

[shy turret]

Iirc @median forge is getting close to that

[near tartan]

but iirc that's also linux source compatible?

[shy turret]

Not their new kernel

They are using mlibc

They did gobject bullshit too

They have rust ported now and other gnome bullshit

They just need more shit to get the full DE working

[near tartan]

W

latest gnome doesn't work anymore without systemd

so no thank you

[shy turret]

https://tenor.com/view/family-guy-joe-joe-taken-away-gif-17520860855595872089

You have no choice in this world

[near tartan]

i do actually

[shy turret]

Damn

[marsh holly]

https://github.com/Mathewnd/psutils @near tartan chop chop add yourself

[eternal wharf]

there's also guile emacs that aims to replace the elisp interpreter with gnu guile

[storm bobcat]

yeah, would've been cool if emacs was written with scheme in mind from the start

[eternal wharf]

schemacs

[storm bobcat]

emacscheme

[marsh holly]

I saw that

[near tartan]

gnome screen recording is so fucking bad bruh

[near tartan]

aaaand i broke it

:D

[marsh holly]

how

just git restore 7head

[near tartan]

i am hooking it up to lightdm

it works under root as you can see

but it ropes when ran as user

[marsh holly]

lmaoo same issue as managarm

[rugged shard]

https://tenor.com/view/buzz-lightyear-meme-buzz-year-copy-meme-gif-4668439001950303425

[lofty copper]

Linked list

[near tartan]

https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/comments/1uevc7i/my_rust_kernel_zinnia_running_kde_plasma_6_on/

let me farm upvotes again

[grave peak]

Not Shrek in 640x480, upvote denied

[near tartan]

fuc

anyways

i'm going to bed

either nobody cares

or i wake up to 1K stars

[grave peak]

Or you become the next serenity os

[near tartan]

@storm bobcat don't hide

[storm bobcat]

nah im not like that

[grave peak]

Logs are public you know

[storm bobcat]

I'm not 🌈

[storm bobcat]

smh no originality tho

[near tartan]

see, zinnia is the prime example that you can do the most stupid shit implementation ever and can still run impressive software

[storm bobcat]

everyone runs KDE...

[near tartan]

you've seen my scheduler code lol

[storm bobcat]

running windows desktop is the next thing

[near tartan]

fr

wine next

[storm bobcat]

nah seriously this is pretty cool

[near tartan]

ty

[storm bobcat]

when I get there I wanna do stuff a bit differently, maybe try using gentoo's portage instead lol

[near tartan]

i'd love to do more robust/correct impls, but i just half ass everything lol

[near tartan]

if i did linux source compat i'd 100% use portage

[storm bobcat]

you don't need source compat

I don't think so

it should be fairly portable

they ran it on freebsd 🤷‍♂️

[near tartan]

without any new patches?

surely they needed at least some

[storm bobcat]

yeah

[near tartan]

i mean they also ran it on gnu turd

[storm bobcat]

but I mean it shouldn't be as bad as porting e.g systemd

[near tartan]

oh sure

fwiw my patches aren't that bad either

[storm bobcat]

anyway I'm mostly interested in running it on the host instead

like, to replace jinx or xbstrap

[near tartan]

i guess

[marsh holly]

I kind of want to do that eventually when I get to the point where astral can compile a distro of itself

just to flex

[near tartan]

W

[storm bobcat]

I think it'd be neat to use as a replacement for jinx and xbstrap since it has a gazillion recipes

obviously you'd need patches still

[marsh holly]

gotta complete the gentoo larp from using openrc

[storm bobcat]

nah you gotta use sysvinit to do the 90s unix thing

[near tartan]

s6

[marsh holly]

I wanted to do that originally but I sasw zinnia tried porting openrc and I decided to be a copying little shit

then marvin chickened out

[near tartan]

then i started using the vastly superior dinit

it's the best of all worlds

[storm bobcat]

idk what dinit is but openrc is pretty nice

there's also runit

ime, openrc has a good balance of UX and minimalism

[near tartan]

fast, lightweight, socket based, easy to port (even encouraged), 2 real distros that use it

[storm bobcat]

runit is very fast but has no UX

[near tartan]

it works very similarly to systemd, but with like 10% of the featureset

chimera and artix use it

and gentoo has recipes for it

[storm bobcat]

s6 is also a thing

[near tartan]

@marsh holly why

[marsh holly]

everybody loves systemd

[storm bobcat]

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems

[near tartan]

similar != is systemd

[storm bobcat]

average gentoo wiki W

[shy turret]

I once made a tool that unified backend init systems to work systemd style for basic commands

I probably should clean that up some more tbh

[marsh holly]

I've always liked openrc

once I did lfs but openrc instead of sysvinit and it was fun

[storm bobcat]

I think openrc is best if you want something non-systemd but dont want to mess around too much

since it's the most mainstream non-systemd init system

[near tartan]

that much is true

[storm bobcat]

but if you're making your own distro/OS anyway, might as well use dinit or whatever else you want

[shy turret]

OpenRC is good

I just hate it's command syntax

[near tartan]

but honestly, the second you stray from systemd, all gloves are off anyways at that point

you're pretty much on your own for everything

[storm bobcat]

I don't get the systemd hate tbh

systemd haters are losers

[grave peak]

Oh the video is new too, thats really impressive tbh, crazy how u dont have to have a million loc to do it

[near tartan]

i think it's putting too much stuff under one project, with 0 alternatives and a gnome like approach to implementation

[near tartan]

ty

i have 44k rn

[storm bobcat]

i mean, not so different from GNU

GNU is a project comprising of many subprojects

[near tartan]

but it's not one package

[storm bobcat]

systemd is the same kinda thing

[near tartan]

tho i don't like gnu for other reasons

[storm bobcat]

is systemd all in one package?

[near tartan]

pretty much

[marsh holly]

thats more than astral

☠️

[near tartan]

even udev is part of systemd

[storm bobcat]

I think some distros package things like systemd-boot externally

[near tartan]

well it probably counted the bindgen'd stuff ☠️

[storm bobcat]

might be a rust thing

[near tartan]

yes but they all come from that one repo

[marsh holly]

I'm at like almost 40k lines of C code

[storm bobcat]

I have about 14k lines right now

13-14

[storm bobcat]

14kloc nothingburger

[near tartan]

i think what systemd solves is good, but they could at least try to make it more portable with other permutations that aren't gcc/linux/glibc

[storm bobcat]

yeah I agree

but that's not something to send death threats over

[near tartan]

I wouldn't

[storm bobcat]

(which poettering received)

[near tartan]

suckless peeps probably

i mean even stuff like libudev can be worked around

[marsh holly]

suckless is such a larp holy shuit

[near tartan]

i use libudev-devd from freebsd to drive my libinput

[storm bobcat]

probably before suckless

but same line of thought

[near tartan]

and so far it works flawlessly

[storm bobcat]

I'm gonna have a linux compat layer but I'll probably also try doing my own stack

doesn't sound that fun to me to endlessly port linux stuff

[shy turret]

I want to do Linux compat myself

But with a userspace translation layer

Ala wine

[marsh holly]

I don't really care about porting the shinniest new DE or whatever

I want astral to have a specific look and feel and not just generic linux larp #1000000

[storm bobcat]

by stack I mean like display server, WM, etc

[near tartan]

Linux compat sadly implies very deranged api crap I'd rather just not deal with

[shy turret]

Using some syscalls to capture and redirect things to a shared library sitting inside the address space and accelerating some things like signals and fork by emulating them in kernel

[marsh holly]

like epoll

[near tartan]

I'm fine with my small subset of linux+bsd apis

[storm bobcat]

most apis can be implemented in terms of other (saner) APIs

like epoll can be implemented with kqueue

as kqueue is more powerful

[near tartan]

yeah but then it's more work to implement

[marsh holly]

yeah if I ever implement epoll I will do it with kqueue

[near tartan]

i have no real need for kqueue

[storm bobcat]

worth it if that means you run a gazillion apps

[near tartan]

not really

i run a gazillion apps right now

but the impl is without kqueue

[marsh holly]

I have also thought of implementing dee arr emm for eventual 3d accel

[near tartan]

i agree that kqueue the better interface

[near tartan]

my drm impl is about 3k lines now

without accel

[marsh holly]

if I were to implement drm I would probably spend a while learning how it works with 3d accel to do it with that in mind out of the box

[near tartan]

i need to continue the b580 driver

[marsh holly]

because I have no reason to implement drm otherwise

[near tartan]

modesetting?

[marsh holly]

limine

[near tartan]

how is that modeset broski

[storm bobcat]

I'd do virtiogpu before a real gpu

[marsh holly]

RESOLUTION=1920x1080x32

ezzzz

[near tartan]

yes

i did too

[storm bobcat]

yeah but no accel

[near tartan]

for the record nobody has managed to get working 3d accel yet

[shy turret]

Jesus fucking Christ

[near tartan]

leo has tried but failed

[marsh holly]

just sloperate it

[shy turret]

@finite grail had mentioned trying that with the amdgpu shit

[storm bobcat]

can you guys just not think about that for like 3 years so I can do it in secret

and beat you to the punch

[near tartan]

see you in 2032

[storm bobcat]

I am trailing behind already

[near tartan]

what count is on the inside

zinnia is pretty bad on a technical level

[marsh holly]

rewri

[near tartan]

it just does a lot of bad things which can run stuff

[near tartan]

in C

[marsh holly]

no

C++

async c+

[near tartan]

L

[marsh holly]

if you complain I make you rewrite it in ada

[near tartan]

I'll replace all my syscalls with io uring

[storm bobcat]

rewrite in zig

the name starts with a Z already

so you're already almost there

[near tartan]

i don't get the point of zig still

it's just C but with a less mature toolchain

[storm bobcat]

I'm not a zig shill but I like that it's C but it allows me to do more modern language stuff

I'd probably use C if I were to start again however

"claude rewrite in C make no mistake"

[near tartan]

i don't hate zig, but I don't see it as an alternative to C/Rust

[storm bobcat]

I don't htink you can put rust on the same level as C

it's more of a C++ alternative

[near tartan]

yeah

[storm bobcat]

whereas zig is more on the C level

[shy turret]

Zig has some things I dislike

[storm bobcat]

imo it's the only C replacement/modern C that actually has a chance to succeed at doing so

[marsh holly]

make it a C microkernel with lua JITed servers

[shy turret]

Along with some rust stuff

I really don't know but

They just put me off

I really like C, JavaScript typescript go and crap

[near tartan]

make a c microkernel with managarm abi compat

[storm bobcat]

pain

[near tartan]

\s/c/zig/

[storm bobcat]

also

since all zig OSes suck

I can claim to be the first one not to suck and actually do stuff

which is instant aura

[near tartan]

same but in rust

[storm bobcat]

by suck I mean, there is none that runs a proper userspace afaik

man "linux-compatible kernel written in zig" is gonna make numbers on HN lol

HN bait 101

[marsh holly]

redux mogs zinnia

[near tartan]

redox couldn't run x11 up until a few months ago

and relibc is bad

look at the os-test score bruh

almost down there with minix

[marsh holly]

coper

[shy turret]

It's called relibc because they need to restart it

Scrap it

Rewrite it from scratch

[near tartan]

re***** libc

we have a bot that logs these btw

idk why

[storm bobcat]

can someone spam the N word to hide it

[shy turret]

Nah that channel don't log the n word

[storm bobcat]

sec imma try

[shy turret]

💀

[storm bobcat]

[near tartan]

what should i port next (I'll probably continue working on usb mass storage kernel side)

[shy turret]

No don't

You will get muted

[storm bobcat]

half life?

[marsh holly]

codex

[near tartan]

i was thinking maybe audio stuff

or supertuxkart

[storm bobcat]

proper doom would be nice too, like gzdoom

[marsh holly]

codex cli is opensource and you have rust so unironically you could

[shy turret]

I did accidentally say it today in #staff though as a typo of schrodinger

💀

[marsh holly]

become the first slop operator ready OS

[storm bobcat]

isn't codex nodejs?

[near tartan]

hell nah

[marsh holly]

its written in rust

[storm bobcat]

why is it installed via npm then

weird

[marsh holly]

fuck if I know

probably claude code told them to when they were using it to write codex

[near tartan]

I use the vlanker to debug stupid shit for which I don't have the time to chase through 200 packages

if you don't you're ngmi

[storm bobcat]

honestly porting stuff sounds like a really good use case for clankers

[near tartan]

it is

[marsh holly]

yeah

[near tartan]

but they produce still a lot of bullshit

like, to debug lightdm failures, claude literally started injecting its patches into my image via debugfs

can you not

but letting it review code is good for catching oversights

[marsh holly]

claude, fuck my wife make no mistakes

[near tartan]

i don't have a wife

so fuck myself i guess

[storm bobcat]

claude cuck 😭

[near tartan]

i have a plan i think

• finish usb msd

[marsh holly]

claude really be injecting shit into your porject

😭😭

[near tartan]

i usually revert everything it generates

it's also filled with trash comments

i did use it to convert the yaml from xbstrap to jinx for the like 150 ish recipes that have no special build logic

[marsh holly]

I'm probably gonna clanjker the update to new jinx when I do it

because ufck that

[near tartan]

it's just copy paste stuff, if you actually do this by hand you're just wasting time

[marsh holly]

I am not manually going through almost 300 packages

[shy turret]

I would say no balls. But no actually fuck that shit

[near tartan]

it's the most boring ass grunt work

that could technically be automated with a script, but you have a few variables here and there that are just not worth accounting for

so it's 100x easier to clank it

i don't use clanker for kernel features and everything it generates besides the occasional bugfix in my code is unusable trash

[shy turret]

I think the most I have ever had it generate are like small functions

That are like mostly very simple

If it ever has to do anything large

It extensive

It grinds up

40 minutes of Claude to find and fix an elf parser but

🥀

[marsh holly]

clanker is like

infinite very determined and directed monkeys with typewriter

[shy turret]

Truke

Somtimes it makes okay things

[marble salmon]

Claude can definitely write reasonably good code way faster that any programmer can

the problem is not so much individual code quality

it's more the high level picture, consistency and brevity

[rugged shard]

kde plasma 6.7 speedrun any% glitchless

[grave peak]

That POS missed 3 fields in a UEFI struct and caused me 2 hours of debugging

Everything was offsert

[near tartan]

did you tell it to look at the online html spec?

[grave peak]

Nope, probably should've told it to look at my local copy

[near tartan]

i have in my global agents.md to never trust memory for specifications or details, always use web or local files

[grave peak]

Yeah that's reasonable lol

[marble salmon]

Claude Opus does that by default afaict

[near tartan]

it does not

i had to tell it multiple times (4.8)

and got hit with an "you're absolutely right"

[fiery marlin]

classic

[grave peak]

that was opus 4.8 max effort

[marble salmon]

Fwiw using max effort on tasks that need low intelligence is detrimental

effort is not a more = better dial

I essentially never use max effort

Effort controls how much the model talks to itself

[near tartan]

thank you rust

omfg

[marble salmon]

If there is not a lot to reason about, then letting the model talk to itself to sort out directions is detrimental and will yield worse output

[near tartan]

[magic charm]

take one look at its codebase as compared to SMF and you will understand

[magic charm]

this is an incredible achievement

[near tartan]

ty

but it's mostly @sick flax achievement

he did the heavy lifting

[sick flax]

Just be glad I found the not build time required but runtime absolutely hates you dependencies that were buried deep in logs

Saves you a good few hours of why shit ain’t working

Cuz configure also didn’t say anything, so that wouldn’t help you either

[near tartan]

🙏 much appreciated

[near tartan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwKSzuBjzLk

had to upload here because size

[rugged shard]

real gaming but a lower res would probably help

is this 1280x800

[near tartan]

yes

wayland will probably be even faster

but it's already nice, the performance is close to managarm's in STK

[rugged shard]

Ah

[jaunty bay]

😭

[near tartan]

[silver birch]

i am going to explode

[near tartan]

i want to try porting zinnia to Apple Silicon

what could go wrong ™

[shy turret]

[rugged shard]

[jaunty bay]

Port it to M3 so I can run it

[near tartan]

that was my idea

well not quite

i have m1 air

and plan to get a used m4/m5

[hoary cave]

first get it to run on m2/m3

[eternal wharf]

i thought you wanted to stop buying hardware :^)

[near tartan]

i lied

[near tartan]

i don't have one rn

[eternal wharf]

based

[near tartan]

i need to buy one again

[hoary cave]

u sold the m2 air?

[near tartan]

to a friend

[near tartan]

yeah i know

but i made money again

[jaunty bay]

I wish you had M3 hardware

I really really want to run cool stuff on my M3

Maybe I should make my own OS for M3, but I’m still working on the Windows 95 like project

[near tartan]

depends how expensive it is

i don't want to spend more than 1k for it

[shy turret]

Why not port your thing to m3

[shy turret]

M3s are only in MacBooks

So it's probably a bit pricy

Even used

[near tartan]

so what

m5 air costs 1000€

new

[shy turret]

Let me check ebay actually 💀

Maybe I'm being stupid

[jaunty bay]

I would have to port FreeDOS to M3

And I’m not willing to do that

[shy turret]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/306421334929

That's not horrible

[near tartan]

porting zinnia to arm isn't very far fetched ngl

[jaunty bay]

Not bad tbh

[jaunty bay]

Maybe I could if I loaded CSM onto UEFI
But even then all the BIOS calls are defined for x86

[shy turret]

You'd probably have to make an entire new dos from scratch for arm

[jaunty bay]

Yeah

And my OS is a 1990s larp anyway

It doesn’t make sense to make such an OS for modern hardware

[storm bobcat]

Get a mac mini?

[near tartan]

boring

[marsh holly]

Zoomers don't even save up to buy a house anymore they just buy their 23rd computer and stare at you like this

[near tartan]

have you seen the fucking housing market here

I'm never owning a house bruh

[marsh holly]

That is ecactly what I am saying 💀

[near tartan]

it's all blackrock

[marsh holly]

I cant wait to have a cs job
pure copium

[marble salmon]

at least not if you spend 1000€ on hw each month

[grave peak]

Bro owns every Thinkpad revision and 5 epycs

[near tartan]

(i "own" 2 thinkpads and 5 epycs

okay 3 thinkpads

but one is from work

[grave peak]

[near tartan]

and the other is arm

also the epycs are dirt cheap in comparison

two of them literally cost 9€

[vast lotus]

and what about the ram?

[near tartan]

i got it for free

we don't use ddr4 anymore

it's all ddr5

so i got to take it home

[grave peak]

Are you gonna use it for hwci?

[near tartan]

ofc

[grave peak]

Nice

[near tartan]

but only after the hot days are over

because otherwise I'll die at 50c in my room

[eternal wharf]

just use the heat to boil water and spin a turbine

[near tartan]

döner

https://tenor.com/view/doner-kebab-kebab-rotating-kebab-rotating-turkiye-gif-546534488506968398

[eternal wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/domer-simpsons-bart-baby-bart-cartoon-gif-1166014673610393421

[near tartan]

gomer

[near tartan]

i'm going to improve dtb support, then i'll add a basic aarch64 port

[median forge]

when ia64 port

[near tartan]

i dont have that hardware

rust also doesn't compile for ia64

[jaunty bay]

lame

L Rust

[near tartan]

W rust

[marsh holly]

Yeah because its not a real language meant to be used in production

[near tartan]

neither is itanium

[marsh holly]

translating......................
translated -> "I am a lame x86cel"

[near tartan]

i don't see astral running on arm or riscv

[marsh holly]

Because I dont have time

[near tartan]

trvthnvke

[marsh holly]

If I could nolife during weekends astral probably wouldve been #1 os by now in the world

But I sadly have a life

🥀

[median forge]

skill issue

[autumn jasper]

ik ur kidding but it's funny that this literally doesn't make any meaningful difference

that's how expensive homes are

[near tartan]

this

[nocturne rampart]

why? does LLVM not support it?

id be surprised if it didnt

[marble salmon]

It does make a difference by letting you save enough for a down payment

unless you're living / want a home in a crazy hcol area

[near tartan]

rustc does not

[heady scarab]

Yeah in my area the equivalent dollar amount ($1138.68 USD) will get you the down payment for a home in a few years, and since a owned home is a long-term goal I think that's pretty acceptable

[near tartan]

regardless, i don't even do that

sure i sometimes buy hardware

but i also sell it

for about the same price

it's maybe a net loss of 100€

[shy turret]

Did you all see slopinna?
https://github.com/BobTheZombie/Zinnia/pull/1

[silver birch]

jesus christ

[near tartan]

macbook has been acquired

[cerulean stream]

Zinnia port to Apple Silicon?

[near tartan]

yes

i need to farm more reddit karma

[near tartan]

until my macbook arrives I'll be taking a break from kernel dev and continue writing my wayland wm

[shy turret]

Best of luck

[jaunty bay]

what CPU?

[near tartan]

M2

[jaunty bay]

😔

so no Zinnia for me

[near tartan]

m3 has no u-boot support

[rugged shard]

should've gotten m5 and ported it to it instead

[near tartan]

💀

[rugged shard]

skril issue

/s

[jaunty bay]

Wait how does Asahi boot then?

[near tartan]

wdym

asahi doesn't boot yet afaik

[jaunty bay]

Doesn’t it boot using u-boot

And Asahi does boot

[near tartan]

since when

m3 does shit differently

i watched a talk from a few months ago where things barely worked on m3

[jaunty bay]

https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:okydh7e54e2nok65kjxdklvd/post/3mdd55paffk2o

Michael Reeves (@integralpilot.bsky.social)

On Apple M3, a Linux KDE plasma desktop under Fedora Asahi Remix is now WORKING! Super excited to share this update and happy to answer any questions! Co-credits to noopwafel and Shiz. :)

Likes

416

Bluesky · Jan 26, 2026, 11:26 AM

[near tartan]

well

it will probably just work then

[jaunty bay]

Oh okay

Can’t wait to try it

Zinnia will be the second OS here that runs on Apple Silicon 🤞

The first one being @inner pagoda’s project

[inner pagoda]

i assume it will be more stable unlike mine which panics if you look at it wrong

[near tartan]

dam

well i prepared better DTB support

so that's the first step

i need to add an aarch64 port tho

i think userspace should already be fine

[jaunty bay]

If Zinnia works I might kinda temporarily ditch my Windows 95 like project and develop an OS for my MacBook

[inner pagoda]

my dev time has gone back into making the virtualizor for ant itself faster now tbh havent touched spore in a while

[jaunty bay]

Unfortunately @zealous salmon was right, it is a really more complicated project than a regular OS

[storm bobcat]

I doubt that tbh

Modern OSes are much more complex than windows 95

[jaunty bay]

Not hobby OSes though

There are a lot of design considerations going into my Windows 95 like that simply wouldn’t have been a concern if I made a regular hobby OS

[inner pagoda]

id say even hobby os'es are more complex than win 95 but not nt tbh

[jaunty bay]

Meh, Windows 95 is a really complex fully 32-bit kernel

[hybrid island]

Most aren't

[storm bobcat]

Yeah but you didn't specify hobby

[jaunty bay]

Yeah when I said regular OS I was trying to say regular hobby OS

Obviously not a modern OS like Linux

[near tartan]

win95 is more complicated than zinnia

[storm bobcat]

I guess it depends but I'm sure someone here could make something like NT 3.1 with enough time, and that's more complex than win95

And not that good by modern standards

[inner pagoda]

isnt like fat16 exponentially simpler than ex2

fs wise win95 is very simple

[near tartan]

it's also exponentially worse

:P

[near tartan]

will

[jaunty bay]

I’d say both are similar to implement, with FAT being slightly easier

[inner pagoda]

my current kernel uses my own thing called ext2+ in which it has dynamic inodes so I dont need to allocate 150mb of the disk to just making inodes

pretty neat

[storm bobcat]

If you judge by currently implemented stuff, mintia is better than NT 3.1

[near tartan]

well duh

[storm bobcat]

But it's just so huge it's not comparable

NT 3.1 in particular did really weird stuff in some places

[jaunty bay]

Yeah, but I’m not that person

[near tartan]

i will never be as goated as will

[inner pagoda]

I feel like ive seen some pretty complex oses here

[near tartan]

but i will be running on apple silicon inshallah

[inner pagoda]

with full desktop enviroments and gtk support

[near tartan]

erm

[storm bobcat]

By that standard my kernel is also better

[storm bobcat]

[near tartan]

[storm bobcat]

It'd be like win7 level I guess in terms of what I implemented atm

[inner pagoda]

well there you go

[near tartan]

but that doesn't mean my kernel is good

it's pretty bad

it just works well enough to not crash and burn immediately

[inner pagoda]

I mean the win95 source is pretty meh too

[marsh holly]

is that managarm

[near tartan]

yes

[marsh holly]

everybody loves managarm

[jaunty bay]

I love Managram

[near tartan]

also this

[jaunty bay]

Basically I’m stuck with a lot of details that wouldn’t be relevant if I did a regular hobby OS, like how DOS and hardware can be virtualized, DOS driver interop, DOS application support, support for DOS interfaces and so on

[near tartan]

fishix 3.0

[jaunty bay]

Windows 95 is pretty complex in that regard

It also supports Win32 API

Also I have to work with ancient tools and old C standards

[storm bobcat]

What is 2.0

[near tartan]

zinnia pre rewrite

[jaunty bay]

Out of curiosity what does it show in the KDE settings “about this system” page

That would be so cool to see

[jaunty bay]

Talking about this screen

[near tartan]

i dont have that lol

[jaunty bay]

I assume because you haven’t compiled it?

[near tartan]

yes

[jaunty bay]

I should try compiling it

[rugged shard]

good cpu

CPU

[near tartan]

dw about it

mfw i can't read /proc/cpuinfo

[rugged shard]

probably a threadripper or smth

[near tartan]

no

opposite

[rugged shard]

ryzen 9 9950x3d2

[near tartan]

Intel Ultra 7 258V

[rugged shard]

ah

close enough

[near tartan]

we will get this bread

aarch64 will be fun

[near tartan]

i have started aarch64 support

[near tartan]

i noticed that userspace is missing a few patches

to even build

so for now just kernel it is

dtb support seems working very well

I'll make it work in qemu first

but i have a ton of outstanding patches that i need to upstream first

[median forge]

F

[near tartan]

W

[median forge]

do u have rpi or something

[near tartan]

yes

but I won't port to rpi

i hate broadcom

i have acpi arm

[jaunty bay]

he has something better

Apple Silicon ❤️

[median forge]

then double F

[near tartan]

how

[jaunty bay]

Apple silicon hater detected
Opinion invalidated

[median forge]

isnt its undocumented

[jaunty bay]

it is documented by Asahi

[near tartan]

linux is my documentation

[grave peak]

u think broadcom crap is documented?

they have 0 docs

[near tartan]

rofl

is it time to implement actual power off with acpi?

[marsh holly]

I must consoom

https://klipy.com/gifs/soyjak-spinning-spinning-soyjak

[near tartan]

just say you're poor 🥀

[marsh holly]

Must acquire everything

[near tartan]

fr

[rugged shard]

qemu -M virt has acpi

is that what you're targeting

or smth else

[near tartan]

i have actual arm ACPI hardware

[rugged shard]

fancy

[near tartan]

but I'm developing against device tree arm

[rugged shard]

makes sense

[near tartan]

some ports don't compile on aarch64 yet

:(

[rugged shard]

;(

[near tartan]

but the kernel does

just booting with limine works on a single cpu

I've done smp for aarch64 acpi on managarm

[near tartan]

third llvm recompile of the day award 🏅

[marsh holly]

use a real toolchain?

not these toys like llvm

[near tartan]

"i am an unloveable chud and love israel"

[marsh holly]

glory to benjamin entanyahu

[rugged shard]

llvm pass complete

[near tartan]

llvm compile... OK

[silver birch]

llvm com [ERROR] Out of memory

[near tartan]

i don't think that makes you run out of 512 gigs of ram

[magic charm]

rumours of your penchant for expensive hardware are clearly not exaggerated

did you get it before the ai mania?

[near tartan]

yes

i also got the ram for free :3

[rugged shard]

he has dedotation

get him

[near tartan]

pls no

[rugged shard]

[near tartan]

i can't sell the ram anyways because they're not legal for consumers

[rugged shard]

how

[near tartan]

they don't have a CE certification

they're eng samples

that's why i got them in the first place

we don't use ddr4 at work anymore

so i got a few of the sticks

[rugged shard]

ah

"a few" how many tb of ram did they have

[near tartan]

like 2?

[rugged shard]

ok fair

[near tartan]

the rest is all low mhz

i only took the 3200mt/s

[rugged shard]

makes sense

[near tartan]

usb just worked

idk how

[shy turret]

How hard was the port? Mostly just page tables interrupts and some timers / other platform devices?

[near tartan]

gic was probably the biggest part

i didn't do smp

page tables were ez

i already have abstract radix tree logic

[shy turret]

Ah nice nice

[near tartan]

but exceptions are weirddddd

[shy turret]

How'd they do them?

[near tartan]

there's sync and async exceptions

also i didn't do posix signal routing yet

[rugged shard]

gicv3?

[near tartan]

yes

[rugged shard]

cool

[marsh holly]

loongarch when

[near tartan]

i could

but that's even less documented

you would port astral to loong64 if the CCP sponsored you

[rugged shard]

step 1: go to china
step 2: get manual
step 3: spend 5 years learning chinese
step 4: impl loongarch64
step 5: profit

[near tartan]

imo risc-v is the nicest isa to implement on the kernel side

actually

let me write ts to a usb

i am curious if this could possibly work on real hw

[marsh holly]

unironically been thinking about it

apparently it has software refilled tlb??? 😭

[near tartan]

yeah

💀

[shy turret]

its actually not that bad

atleast for CPU side things

[shy turret]

only on a technicality

this is the ammount of support you need

.equiv tlbrsave, 0x8B
.equiv pgd,      0x1B

.global tlb_refill_handler
.balign 4096
tlb_refill_handler:
    csrwr $t0, tlbrsave  # save t0
    csrrd $t0, pgd       # get the faulting page table root
    lddir $t0, $t0, 3    # walk page table level 4
    lddir $t0, $t0, 2    # walk page table level 3
    lddir $t0, $t0, 1    # walk page table level 2
    ldpte $t0, 0         # load even entry from level 1
    ldpte $t0, 1         # load odd entry from level 1
    tlbfill              # fill the tlb
    csrrd $t0, tlbrsave  # restore t0
    ertn

thats it

You chunk the physical address of that into a CSR

And then use page tables like normal

[shy turret]

the manual is pretty wel detailed and only has a few minor translation issues from what ive seen

and linux acts as docs for a fewww things

[near tartan]

AYOOO??????? 😭

it actually boots

[shy turret]

YOOOOO

[near tartan]

well, not to userspace yet

[shy turret]

but yeah i would consider a loongarch port, there is a reason mint likes it,

[rugged shard]

imagine no time

[near tartan]

time works in dtb mode

mind you this is using acpi mode

[rugged shard]

how would that change anything

[shy turret]

How do you abstract things between the dtb and ACPI modes btw

[rugged shard]

isnt it just reading some system register

[near tartan]

discovering the gic?

[near tartan]

if !acpi { dtb() }

[rugged shard]

huh why would the boot time need the gic

i said that because i saw this

[shy turret]

Ah fair, I guess for a few things I may have to special case it because my serial stuff looks at ACPI it's self verses the other way. Though maybe I should change that?

[shy turret]

Isn't the GIC inside the ACPI tables too?

[near tartan]

yes but i don't parse those

yet

only x86 xapics

[shy turret]

Fair

[near tartan]

static DRIVER: Driver = Driver {
    name: "gicv3",
    compatible: &[b"arm,gic-v3"],
    probe,
};

fn probe(node: &Node) -> EResult<()> {
    let (gicd_phys, _) = reg_pair(node, 0).ok_or(Errno::EINVAL)?;
    let (gicr_phys, _) = reg_pair(node, 1).ok_or(Errno::EINVAL)?;

    let gicd = map_mmio(gicd_phys, 0x1_0000);
    let gicr = map_mmio(gicr_phys, 0x2_0000);
    GICD_BASE.store(gicd, Ordering::Relaxed);
    GICR_BASE.store(gicr, Ordering::Relaxed);
    GICR_PHYS.store(gicr_phys.value(), Ordering::Relaxed);

    w32(gicd, GICD_CTLR, GICD_CTLR_ARE_NS);
    wait_rwp(gicd);
    w32(gicd, GICD_CTLR, GICD_CTLR_ARE_NS | GICD_CTLR_ENABLE_G1NS);
    wait_rwp(gicd);

    let waker = r32(gicr, GICR_WAKER) & !GICR_WAKER_PROCESSOR_SLEEP;
    w32(gicr, GICR_WAKER, waker);
    while r32(gicr, GICR_WAKER) & GICR_WAKER_CHILDREN_ASLEEP != 0 {
        core::hint::spin_loop();
    }

    write_sysreg!(ICC_SRE_EL1, read_sysreg!(ICC_SRE_EL1) | 1);
    isb();
    if read_sysreg!(ICC_SRE_EL1) & 1 == 0 {
        warn!("The system-register CPU interface did not enable");
        return Err(Errno::ENODEV);
    }
    write_sysreg!(ICC_PMR_EL1, 0xFF); // Allow all priorities.
    write_sysreg!(ICC_BPR1_EL1, 0);
    write_sysreg!(ICC_IGRPEN1_EL1, 1);
    isb();

    Ok(())
}

#[initgraph::task(
    name = "arch.aarch64.gic",
    depends = [crate::device::dt::TREE_STAGE],
    entails = [crate::arch::INIT_STAGE],
)]
pub fn GIC_STAGE() {
    if let Err(err) = DRIVER.register() {
        warn!("Failed to bring up the GICv3: {err:?}");
    }
}

this is the probe for dtb

[grave peak]

How good is this laptop as a daily driver btw

[near tartan]

on windows it's decent

linux 7.1 is supposedly decent too

but it's full of qcom cancer

[grave peak]

Unfortunate

[near tartan]

other than that it's a usual T14s

[grave peak]

Well usual on the outside ig

[near tartan]

yes

[grave peak]

Completely bespoke weird soc

[near tartan]

i'm doing aarch64 support mostly so i can do apple silicon

[rugged shard]

what gen

[near tartan]

6

oh apparently it hangs itself when i enumerate ECAM

[rugged shard]

ah

[grave peak]

Maybe ill try if you get yours to work

[near tartan]

you have AS?

[grave peak]

U probably map it incorrectly

[grave peak]

Yes, m3 iirc

[near tartan]

neat

it wont work yet

because asahi's u-boot only supports up to m2, but that's changing as we speak

[near tartan]

works on x86

[grave peak]

Do you do ngnre etc

[near tartan]

🤔

[grave peak]

I wonder wtf they change between gens that it breaks so much

[near tartan]

well

apple silicon has its own set of exception levels

GL0-2

and everything newer than m3 has extra security features that stop m1n1 to act like a hypervisor

[rugged shard]

just why

[grave peak]

How is that different from normal aarch64?

[near tartan]

well aarch64 doesn't have those

[grave peak]

Well it has normal el

[near tartan]

yes and AS also has GLx on top

idfk what it does yet

but starting with M3 it plays a role

[near tartan]

this is part of it iirc

asahi uses m1n1 as a hypervisor to track MMIO writes on macos

instead of just reversing the drivers

it's not as easy to do because the mac os drivers are c++ and spread all over

[grave peak]

I see

[near tartan]

there's a talk that's VERY interesting if you plan on doing osdev for AS

[grave peak]

Show

[near tartan]

https://media.ccc.de/v/39c3-asahi-linux-porting-linux-to-apple-silicon

[grave peak]

Thanks

[near tartan]

man i am getting quite bored of rust again tho

[rugged shard]

c29 rewrite

[shy turret]

Hey that's my kernel

(I use defer)

[rugged shard]

[shy turret]

(maybe a bit too much)

Cc: @nova tiger

You gotta do a rewrite in nim

[near tartan]

c23 microkernel*

if i were to rewrite i would probably do it 100% clanker free

because i did find myself debugging with AI because i didn't have the time to properly look into the issues

but that only solved the problem, i still don't know what went wrong or how to fix it

literal brain rot

[rugged shard]

i do that sometimes and 99% of the time i end up fixing it myself before the clanker knows what's going wrong

[near tartan]

i don't think i've ever pushed pure clanker code

it NEVER looks good

[shy turret]

Truke

[near tartan]

just okay enough as an early pass

or to prototype an idea

[shy turret]

Any clanker code I have it make I always end up just refactoring the fuck out of it

[near tartan]

same

[shy turret]

Or it's so simple there really aren't many ways to do it

[rugged shard]

maybe claude 4.6 medium or whatever is just dumb but i dont pay for clankers

[near tartan]

i did via work and i had a private sub for a month to try it out

[rugged shard]

ah

[near tartan]

it's unfortunately good enough to do my job

but that just means more work for me to do with less time for each thing

@grave peak btw i used nGnRnE

didn't fix anything

[grave peak]

Gg

Probably still something related to that

[near tartan]

:(

oh no

openbsd has a quirk for this

[grave peak]

Whats the quirk?

[near tartan]

Some DesignWare IP configurations are synthesized with a minimum ATU window size of 64 KB.

apparently linux has an ecam "driver" vtable

[grave peak]

Is there a driver where linux doesn't have a vtable

[marsh holly]

linux is the oop os

[near tartan]

tfw quirk table

I honestly wouldn't know how else to do this with quirks

[jaunty bay]

wait so how does Asahi boot on M3?

[near tartan]

that's woip

wip

not upstream yet

[nova tiger]

Do you need to cc me on the most random shit imaginable 😭

What do you even want me to say to this lol

Yeah you do abuse defer

[eternal wharf]

async exceptions are approximately just MCEs from x86

async iirc just means it won't correspond directly to the instruction that caused the fault

e.g. if you do a posted write, the cpu moves on, and only after a while you get a bus error

[near tartan]

ah

[jaunty bay]

ah that’s unfortunate

I wonder if I could get your OS to work on my Mac by using non-upstream / Asahi version?

[near tartan]

probably

one funny thing that i need to solve is the DART iommu

because without it pcie never sees any ram

ram is above 0x800000000, but it's 32 bit pcie

[marble salmon]

didn't Managarm manage to enumerate PCI on this machine?

[near tartan]

i think?

don't rember

[marble salmon]

is this acpi or dtb?

[near tartan]

ACPI

[marble salmon]

I think it did and it found an xhci

[near tartan]

apple gaming

(it crashes when going to userspace)

[rugged shard]

interesting crash handler log

[near tartan]

that's from uboot (?)

[rugged shard]

i was about to ask how did you hook it up

interesting

i would've expected the kernel to catch it but its apple so

[near tartan]

fwiw i think the kernel actually runs in EL1

[marble salmon]

wdym

you should know that

you need to know in which EL you're running lol

[near tartan]

no because there's the apple exception levels

the GL1/2

which I don't handle

[marble salmon]

you need to program the right value into spsr

etc

maybe that's why you're crashing when entering userspace :^)

ARM ELs are not transparent to the kernel

not even if VHE is on (which it is on apple)

[near tartan]

could be

it worked in qemu :(

[marble salmon]

are you assuming EL2?

or what are you doing

[near tartan]

i copied most of the managram entry point

[marble salmon]

Managarm has some "if running in EL2"s

which you need if you want to support both EL2 and EL1

for example here when setting up a user mode register image: https://github.com/managarm/managarm/blob/master/kernel/thor/arch/arm/cpu.cpp#L63

[hoary cave]

you do not care about that

[near tartan]

when do i need to care?

[marble salmon]

the guarded execution stuff is intentionally entered

afaict

[hoary cave]

never

you never care about them

[near tartan]

why did the asahi guy mention them

[hoary cave]

because they exist and they are important

[marble salmon]

i think that's the feature that apple uses to protect PTs from the kernel?

[hoary cave]

but not for osdev

[near tartan]

oh lol i just realized i booted the wrong image 💀

wrong usb

[grave peak]

how do u boot custom stuff on apple hw

[near tartan]

asahi has a uboot only option

that has efi emu

[grave peak]

asahi the kernel emulates efi?

[near tartan]

no

uboot

[grave peak]

why did u mention it lol

[near tartan]

asahi ported uboot to macs

it's their fork

[grave peak]

ah ok

[near tartan]

typo

[grave peak]

do they usually boot into the m1n1 thing?

[near tartan]

no i think m1n1 is the first stage

u-boot is on top

@hoary cave correct me pls

[marble salmon]

m1n1 is a bootloader + hypervisor

[hoary cave]

it CAN be a hypervisor

but usually it just loads and hands off to u-boot

[grave peak]

what even is the apple boot sequence by default, what state does it leave m1n1 in

do u need to like hack it to get shit to boot

[hoary cave]

nah

it has a boot protocol, it's called iboot

[storm bobcat]

There's a pretty good book on Apple stuff

Actually it's a series of books

[near tartan]

huh

[storm bobcat]

the second one is a deep dive on XNU

[hoary cave]

it basically tells you where ram is, gives you cmdline, flags, framebuffer

[storm bobcat]

sec

[grave peak]

google says iboot is the apple bootloader

[hoary cave]

https://github.com/AsahiLinux/m1n1/blob/main/src/xnuboot.h this basically

[grave peak]

or does it run from firmware directly

[hoary cave]

iboot is the bootloader, yes

and it runs from god knows where, but i think it can be updated by a firmware upgrade

but i might be wrong

[marble salmon]

i think iboot was written by @ geist

[storm bobcat]

https://www.newosxbook.com/home.html

that one

[marble salmon]

or he was part of the team that wrote it or so

[grave peak]

    u64 phys_base;
    u64 mem_size;

Does apple hardware like, always has contiguous dram?

[hoary cave]

yeah

[grave peak]

lol

[near tartan]

based

[marble salmon]

why lol?