Zinnia

[brisk totem]

i guess handle table or something like that would maybe need it?

[storm bobcat]

A large slab is any slab with objects over 512 bytes

[brisk totem]

okay so like what 🙃

[storm bobcat]

and the slab size is calculated to minimize fragmentation

[brisk totem]

also 512 feels weirdly low

[storm bobcat]

It's 1/8th of a page

[brisk totem]

yeah and you map in units of a lot more than 1 page usually

[storm bobcat]

hm?

Actually I guess the Solaris way would be to resize the hashmap using vmem or something

[magic charm]

You may say this of unix domain sockets specifically but how about TCP or UDP? With a ring buffer you'd be compelled to introduce an extra copy

While the natural solution with mblks or mbufs is to adjusy the data pointer of the block past the headers and pass it up to receive queue

[brisk totem]

oh yeah thats true

hmm

well no i dont think so

you could create a mildly cursed ringbuffer structure which can hand off objects directly on the fast path

and then do some kind of vectored receive on the other side, idk

[storm bobcat]

oh fadanoid I was meaning to ask, how do you avoid making kernel heap frees expensive? Because my physical pages are not contiguous so what I would do on free is free the virtual pages and flush the TLB, but flushing the TLB on every free sounds bad. Can a batching mechanism be used for kernel as well?

[brisk totem]

for kernel frees, you dont have to do a synchronous TLB shootdown at all

[magic charm]

Its even easier for kernel since you can delay making the VA space available

[storm bobcat]

Yeah I thought about that too

[brisk totem]

and obviously you can also just not free as much

and free in larger batches

(e.g. im planning to use 64k blocks for my slab allocator, so that already means 1/16th of TLB shootdowns)

[magic charm]

Do an RCU like thing. The VA space is freed only after each CPU has passed some point where it processes queued kernel VA space invalidation

[storm bobcat]

Why not?

I had this exact idea

[brisk totem]

because you know that the memory won't be used

[storm bobcat]

I can do some kind of safe memory reclamation trick

[storm bobcat]

Well yeah if I free the virtual memory it may be

[magic charm]

The technique is described in the mach "tlb shootdown" paper

It was one of the inspirations for RCU originally

[storm bobcat]

Are you doing arm?

[brisk totem]

yes but im using 4k pages

[storm bobcat]

Don't you still need TLB flushes for every individual 4k page

[brisk totem]

well no you can do a bulk tlb flush

also on arm you have broadcast tlb invalidations (but i dont want to rely on that obv)

[neon flicker]

this does not apply to naming conventions btw

[near tartan]

i have the best naming

[near tartan]

@somber solar

[somber solar]

nice

[near tartan]

it was getres{u,g}id

now to figure out what trips up ppoll

[near tartan]

@somber solar ok it's not ppoll

it's the tty handling

bash thinks my tty is not canonical??

[somber solar]

interesting

[near tartan]

is it supposed to be canonical?

[somber solar]

yes

I think

[near tartan]

i set c_lflag with ICANON

[somber solar]

can you show your syscall log

[near tartan]

what are you looking for? termios?

i only log names rn

[somber solar]

arguments and return values would be useful

[near tartan]

wanna join vc?

[somber solar]

sure

[near tartan]

new screenshot dropped

[median forge]

?

[near tartan]

why ?

[near tartan]

lol

missing logo for fastfetch

[median forge]

make it new zinnia logo

[near tartan]

idk how to make pixel art

[somber solar]

1. take a png
2. img2ascii
3. profit

[near tartan]

it looked ass when i tried lol

[median forge]

is img2ascii was your some tool

i dont remember

[marsh holly]

Ask claude

[near tartan]

holy

peak

[near tartan]

gib

[somber solar]

is it too big

[near tartan]

uhh

hm

can you change it into a fastfetch format

[somber solar]

what's that

[near tartan]

two plain colors started with $1 and $2

e.g.:

           $2.;ldkO0000Okdl;.
       .;d00xl:^''''''^:ok00d;.
     .d00l'                'o00d.
   .d0Kd'$1  Okxol:;,.          $2:O0d
  .OK$1KKK0kOKKKKKKKKKKOxo:,      $2lKO.
 ,0K$1KKKKKKKKKKKKKKK0P^$2,,,$1^dx:$2    ;00,
.OK$1KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKk'$2.oOPPb.$1'0k.$2   cKO.
:KK$1KKKKKKKKKKKKKKK: $2kKx..dd $1lKd$2   'OK:
dKK$1KKKKKKKKKOx0KKKd $2^0KKKO' $1kKKc$2   dKd
dKK$1KKKKKKKKKK;.;oOKx,..$2^$1..;kKKK0.$2  dKd
:KK$1KKKKKKKKKK0o;...^cdxxOK0O/^^'  $2.0K:
 kKK$1KKKKKKKKKKKKK0x;,,......,;od  $2lKk
 '0K$1KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK00KKOo^  $2c00'
  'kK$1KKOxddxkOO00000Okxoc;''   $2.dKk'
    l0Ko.                    .c00l'
     'l0Kk:.              .;xK0l'
        'lkK0xl:;,,,,;:ldO0kl'
            '^:ldxkkkkxdl:^'

would be huge

[somber solar]

iirc nyaux used this format with fastfetch

[near tartan]

yeah but that's not the intended way

that just prints the ansi sequences

let me try putting it in the sysroot

[grave peak]

damn

[median forge]

fastfetch doesnt love to show logos >20 kb

[hoary cave]

why is there so much empty space between the right side of the logo and the stats

[near tartan]

big logo

[hoary cave]

fx it

fix it

[median forge]

they are ugly

[somber solar]

I couldn't get it to be pretty in the fastfetch format

[near tartan]

doesn't have to be

as long as it's not a "?"

[somber solar]

I could edit it manually

[near tartan]

yeah it needs like 3-4 cleaned pixels

but otherwise doesn't even look that bad

or you could remove the bg entirely

just one color

[somber solar]

is this fine

[near tartan]

hell yeah

based

[near tartan]

a

[marsh holly]

a

[hollow hedge]

a

[grave peak]

a

[median forge]

a

[neon flicker]

a

[idle flower]

a

[cyan nexus]

a

[dusk pawn]

a

[near tartan]

hm

xorg seems to be trying to do modeset

but fails horribly because of the screen res

[near tartan]

that's better

[near tartan]

this isn't as cool as i'd want it to be because it's just using fbdev, not drm

it does a modeset, but it stays blank

[near tartan]

xeyes with virtio_gpu DRM

don't ask me why the eyes are blue lol

but

[shy turret]

why are the eyes blue

nah but based as fuck

[near tartan]

@grave peak

[storm bobcat]

Is that 3d accel?

[near tartan]

no but modeset

[storm bobcat]

3d accel when

[near tartan]

once i have xfce running

[storm bobcat]

It can't be that hard

[near tartan]

™

[grave peak]

leo couldnt do it for managarm

so it is indeed hard

[storm bobcat]

Isn't virtio gpu supposed to be simple

Well

Simpler

[near tartan]

still pretty hard

[grave peak]

no the 3d format is literal mesa ir

[near tartan]

okay with plainfb drm, the eyes are black

probably ARGB vs BGRA

inb4 i messed up the buffer setup and mixed the formats

[shy turret]

so would you either have to reimplement mesa stuff or somehow pipe mesa outputs into it?

[near tartan]

bruh

this was fucking stupid

there we go

[grave peak]

does virtio gpu define its own formats?

[near tartan]

yesn't

it has constants

but they're just common ones

[fair lintel]

eh probably doable with proper fencing and some diligent code review of mesa/virglrenderer

it's just super frustrating to work with really

these days, it's probably nicer to use the venus vulkan thingy instead

at least that uses the official serialized vulkan command stuff

I think, with retrospect, my problem was either messing up to set up some descriptors (possibly for DMA), some fencing meme or forgetting to signal something

[grave peak]

what is this code for?

[grave peak]

is that a vgpu backend?

[near tartan]

allocating a dumb buffer

[fair lintel]

it's the protocol used by mesa

basically it serializes the opengl/vulkan state, DMAs it over to the host, which then deserializes + executes that

it

's just a lot saner to go the vulkan route these days

[grave peak]

yeah but what device does that require in qemu

[fair lintel]

virtio-gpu

might need some options, I don't remember

[grave peak]

Doesn't virtio GPU rely on mesa ir

[fair lintel]

with the vulkan stuff no

[grave peak]

Hm

[fair lintel]

bc it uses the official serialization of it, I think it even works with nvidia-open

[brisk totem]

is it literally just vulkan? surely not

[fair lintel]

it is

[brisk totem]

i mean you cant trust the host vulkan driver to work properly

[fair lintel]

you can't trust, but iirc people have had this thing running and amgpu and nvo

[brisk totem]

amdgpu segfaults if you tell it to use a random entrypoint you dont have in spirv

this will even pass spirv-val btw

[fair lintel]

sure but does it matter if it works

[brisk totem]

well i would say crashing the whole emulator and being hopelessly insecure does not, in fact, count as working

[fair lintel]

???

[grave peak]

u still have the host amdgpu driver validate the command buffer

[fair lintel]

my point is that venus works with multiple drivers

[grave peak]

and shaders

[brisk totem]

well you cant validate that if it operates at the vulkan api level

and you cant make this work reliably at that level because the drivers are too broken either

[grave peak]

??

vm vulkan -> host vulkan -> host amdgpu driver

[brisk totem]

yes

there is no way to know if a given set of maliciously constructed (but valid) vulkan commands is safe

[brisk totem]

gpu drivers are not considered attack surface afaiu

[grave peak]

u dont submit vulkan commands to amdgpu

u submit amdgpu commands

[fair lintel]

it's getting validated by some host-side layer before being passed on

[brisk totem]

yeah but imo thats not really terribly trustworthy

[fair lintel]

virglrenderer or whatever

idk what to say, ok bro, don't use it then?

[brisk totem]

i mean sure like thats cool

[grave peak]

any app has the right to make a command buffer and submit it via drm, thats kind of the whole idea. i dont see how adding a vm changes anything here

[brisk totem]

i love broken devices 🙃

[brisk totem]

that a vm is [meant to be] a privilege boundary 🙃

yeah maybe its fine

[fair lintel]

to paraphrase a bit of medical wisdom, "there are no correct drivers, only underdiagnosed ones"

[grave peak]

you're worried its untrusted vm output?

but its untrusted either way even if its produced by host userspace

[brisk totem]

the host userspace side of the gpu driver is more privileged than a random vm userspace process

[fair lintel]

anyway, if somebody wants to tackle this some day, I'd be happy to help out with a bit of guidance if desired

[grave peak]

by gpu driver u mean userspace mesa?

[brisk totem]

yea

if you can get it to segfault by accident...

[grave peak]

i suppose

but that would be a bug in the driver anyway

like either in userspace mesa or host

(kernel space)

like its not intended that u can make amdgpu segfault from userspace by providing invalid input from userspace

[fair lintel]

wherever the batchbuffer comes from, the driver has to validate it anyway

from the driver's perspective, I don't think you can really tell the virtio-gpu Venus case apart from just mesa

and the fact that the userspace side then has to validate input is ... obv?

[grave peak]

i still think it would be cool to get that working in managarm so u can brag about some 3d accel

[fair lintel]

sure but I don't think I will have the time to do that in the next few months ngl

[grave peak]

[near tartan]

anyways

[grave peak]

maybe marvin is going to beat u to it

[fair lintel]

I'm happy to help make that happen

[near tartan]

nah

i have doubts in myself

the goal i've set for myself with zinnia is to get to xfce4, as that's my fav DE

[grave peak]

on paper it just takes correctly piping userspace buffer into the gpu

[fair lintel]

in theory it's just setting up DMA stuff + handle fences + yeet commands

[grave peak]

fences are probably the only like harder thing

[fair lintel]

I'm not sure what the guest driver side has to do for that even, but even if you have to do a lot of legwork, it's just semaphore + reporting events via a syncobj fd

[grave peak]

iirc userspace just puts a fence command into the buffer which generates an irq when reached or something?

[fair lintel]

might be, but you also have to await all the input data to be available

dunno how that works with venus

[grave peak]

yeah idk

[fair lintel]

on nvidia, you'd just emit a few GPU instructions to do a wait on the semaphore

same for signalling fences, just insert some instructions to advance a timeline semaphore

[marble salmon]

i doubt that the problem in the past as a fencing issue

it's much more likely that some ABI was broken

[grave peak]

wdym by input data?

[marble salmon]

between host mesa and guest mesa

[fair lintel]

I did 4 or 5 passes checking all data structures, so I was pretty certain of their correctness

[grave peak]

is it really that tied to a specific version?

[fair lintel]

for fences, I just set a bit to make it run in sync and hoped for the best

[marble salmon]

no, i mean a mesa-internal ABI

in the serialized IR

due to mlibc differences etc

[fair lintel]

FUCK I KNOW WHY

FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK

[grave peak]

what lol

[fair lintel]

printf LMFAO

[grave peak]

there was a printf bug in mlibc?

[fair lintel]

it 10000% miscompiled shaders

[grave peak]

lol

[marble salmon]

but then it should have miscompiled them on Managarm as well

[near tartan]

rofl

[fair lintel]

I only ever observed that on skia otherwise

that was when I implemented all the float formatting in frigg

[grave peak]

wdym on managarm as well

this is on managarm no?

[marble salmon]

shaders on Managarm without virtio-gpu work just fine (even back then)

[fair lintel]

(depending on the codepaths taken)

[grave peak]

u mean llvmpipe shaders?

[marble salmon]

yes

[storm bobcat]

I will

[grave peak]

yeah it could be different codepaths

[marble salmon]

but it doesn't matter if it's llvmpipe or not since it goes through the same IR

[grave peak]

do it

[storm bobcat]

(my kernel is a nothingburger)

[near tartan]

you need to lock in first

[fair lintel]

I am actually fairly certain that printf + fences would solve virtio-gpu

I AM SO FUCKING DUMB

[storm bobcat]

tf you mean lock in I've been writing like 5kloc a week or something

Ok maybe not that much

[marble salmon]

ah actually it probably doesn't serialize on the non-virtio code path

[storm bobcat]

I wrote like 10k in 3

[grave peak]

yeah likely

[fair lintel]

yeah about that, scanf bugs also bite there

[grave peak]

can we do a quick test

maybe just the printf fixes fixed it

[fair lintel]

no I don't have the branch any more, and rebasing that also wouldn't be all that feasible

[grave peak]

fair

[fair lintel]

it would be easier to just rewrite from the spec again, esp with vulkan in mind

[grave peak]

u nuked the driver code also?

[fair lintel]

(just enable zink afterwards)

[marsh holly]

get claude to do a quick and dirty test

[marble salmon]

fwiw claude is quite good at rebasing branches

[fair lintel]

jesus christ

[grave peak]

lol

[near tartan]

ok so how is it a nothing burget

[storm bobcat]

it's not really

But it doesn't do much

Glorified scheduler

[grave peak]

any kernel without a userspace is a nothing burger

[storm bobcat]

yes

I'm not even thinking about getting close to userpace atm

I have so much stuff to do first

see the todo list

[grave peak]

did u start the tty

[grave peak]

show

[storm bobcat]

it's pinned in the thread

[storm bobcat]

No I commented it out

[grave peak]

ngl thats the most useful todo list

[storm bobcat]

Well yeah I'm still not on par with my c code

Because no timer stuff and smp yet

[grave peak]

so what are u working on atm

[storm bobcat]

finishing the allocators so I can start smp

I'm overengineering the allocator and I don't have infinite time so it's not pushed yet

But it's like 95% done I'd say

[grave peak]

llfree?

[storm bobcat]

No the pmm is already done

I'm referring to the slab allocator and vmem

[grave peak]

oh ok

[storm bobcat]

i could probably push it already but I wanna clean it up a bit

[near tartan]

wtf is this

xeyes -biblicallyAccurate

[ionic summit]

https://tenor.com/view/south-park-bald-eyes-emoji-guess-who-i-am-guys-sackboy-gif-11539816902738750221

[nocturne rampart]

Honeycomb

[near tartan]

???

et tu brutus??

god damn this kernel is hella unstable

there's deadlocks everywhere

[storm bobcat]

does it not work with fork?

[near tartan]

no

idfk what it's trying to open yet

[storm bobcat]

well

gcc has a bunch of subprocesses

it must spawn like 5 executables just to compile a C program

ok no maybe like 3

[near tartan]

ok but still why would it try to open a file in posix_spawnp

@marsh holly i got bored of openrc

i got dinit now

[storm bobcat]

bored or it didnt work ?

[near tartan]

both

dinit was way easier to get running

and it doesn't use ugly scripts for services

[marsh holly]

LL

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cats-awkward-awkward-cat-cat-awkward-gif-24906225

at least then I am a special little boy who runs openrc

[vast lotus]

I think this happens when you have a weird PATH variable

[near tartan]

@nocturne rampart

[nocturne rampart]

Mouse?

[near tartan]

no

not yet bra

[nocturne rampart]

Twm?

[near tartan]

yes

[nocturne rampart]

Awesome

[near tartan]

[median forge]

https://tenor.com/view/neon-genesis-evangelion-passione-omedetou-jojos-bizarre-adventure-giorno-giovanna-gif-24643537

now run wayland

[near tartan]

💀

i'm not linux

[median forge]

wdym

[near tartan]

wayland needs a lot of linux apis

[median forge]

isnt there is bsd port for it

[near tartan]

then i need to be bsd

[near tartan]

but yes

[magic charm]

these days wayland is runnable on bsd as well

[near tartan]

yeah but only if you're an actual bsd

(libudev-devd)

[magic charm]

netbsd and i think even openbsd can run it now

[near tartan]

yeah and both are actual bsds

so my options are

• pretend to be linux
• pretend to be a bsd
• write my own shitfucked version of libudev and a device manager

[median forge]

didnt you was writing own libudev

[near tartan]

yes

[cyan nexus]

or do all 3

[near tartan]

no

[magic charm]

there was an experimental libudev implementation for netbsd but i don't think it's needed for most comprositors

[near tartan]

it's needed for everything

[magic charm]

possibly the path of least resistance is a libudev implementation

[near tartan]

i'M already working on one

[marble salmon]

you can probably patch udev out of compositors rather easily

[near tartan]

but it's very hacky atm

[magic charm]

it shouldn't need to be very thorough

[marble salmon]

it's not feasible to remove it from libinput though. although the BSDs may have their own solution for that such that they may not need libinput anyway

[storm bobcat]

Why is Wayland so not portable again

[hybrid island]

Assumes some linuxisms and uses Linux-specific interfaces

[near tartan]

epoll + signalfd + timerfd + libudev for libinput which basically everything depends on

[storm bobcat]

Yes but why

[hybrid island]

because it's for linux

[near tartan]

and linux specific socket stuff iirc

virtio_gpu cursor! (i don't have an actual input driver, this is just qemu doing the display)

[magic charm]

very cool

something i noticed, most hobby oses are slightly annoying to use any GUI under qemu since they're using ps/2 mouse and it's got to be captured and generally it feels a bit off when moving it, so if you used virtio-tablet instead, you're onto a winner

[brisk totem]

does libinput hard depend on epoll et al

[near tartan]

wayland does, not sure about libinput

but probably

[brisk totem]

wayland can at least be vaguely patched

[near tartan]

i guess

i mean if wayland was feasible to do, i'd provide epoll myself

and ofc i'd prefer it over x11

[brisk totem]

theoretically instead of reimplementing udev you can just patch libinput so that the "udev" backend is just the path backend that adds some hardcoded paths or whatever

[near tartan]

but it's just all linux only stuff

[storm bobcat]

Is Wayland the problem or wlroots

[brisk totem]

epoll <<< kqueue

[near tartan]

wayland

[brisk totem]

wayland the C library is probably the issue

[near tartan]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[brisk totem]

and you need the c library for mesa (and accel more broadly) to work

so everyone uses it

[near tartan]

i have no idea what the diff between the two is so idgaf

i only vaguely know what epoll is used for

[brisk totem]

well the difference is really big lmao

oh you mean between epoll and kqueue?

[near tartan]

yea

[brisk totem]

kqueue lets you do more shit

and its a bsd api and not a linux api so its also saner

[marble salmon]

wayland the protocol does not depend on epoll

even though specific implementations may

the wayland protocol does not depend on any linux-isms

[near tartan]

wayland = libwayland in this context

[storm bobcat]

Better Wayland impl when

[brisk totem]

well yes

[cyan nexus]

i'll do my own, lol

[brisk totem]

i have a pure rust impl which only incidentally depends on epoll (and my older impl didnt even require it iirc)

[magic charm]

kqueue can be implemented in terms of epoll+timerfd+signalfd+eventfd+inotifyfd very well, and the converse is also true

modulo oddities which are mostly undesired like continuing to receive epoll notifications after closing an fd

[near tartan]

i'm tempted to just implement the devd interface

[storm bobcat]

I should try doing it

[brisk totem]

but why

just patch libinput so that "udev" really means "path backend with a bunch of hardcoded libinput_path_add_device calls"

[near tartan]

well

i still need some form of device manager

but implementing netlink is aids

[brisk totem]

until you get hotplug you can just hardcode the list of commands to execute into a file or something

[near tartan]

which is what X does

[brisk totem]

yes ofc

and its like fine

[near tartan]

dont get me wrong i would love to do wayland

but i also have a job

[brisk totem]

im pretty sure its not much harder

[near tartan]

i could vibe code the libudev thing and just make it use my own interface

that's a bit easier than patching libinput

[brisk totem]

how

[near tartan]

because there's probably multiple consumers of libudev

and there's a lot of places where libudev is used in libinput

marvin@aquaduct ~/r/libinput (main)> rg "udev_.*\(" | wc -l
406

[brisk totem]

here is a list: https://pkgs.alpinelinux.org/package/edge/main/x86_64/eudev-libs

[brisk totem]

comment it out

[storm bobcat]

Could you technically write a more portable libwayland and make the compositors more portable

[near tartan]

that still doesn't address libinput

[brisk totem]

no

[near tartan]

libwayland is technically doable

[brisk totem]

there is complete lockin

[storm bobcat]

I know wlroots isnt

[near tartan]

look

i have this https://github.com/marv7000/libudev-freestanding

[brisk totem]

you need agreement between mesa and libwayland

[near tartan]

look at the headers

[brisk totem]

yeah that works too probably

[near tartan]

there's not that many functions to implement

[storm bobcat]

Writing a shim between the Wayland interfaces and Linux stuff?

That could work

[brisk totem]

it would be easier to just port libwayland tbh

[storm bobcat]

Is Mesa a linuxism?

I'd say you can avoid epoll and all that stuff and make that portable

[near tartan]

no

[brisk totem]

mesa is accel

[storm bobcat]

But still rely on mesa

yea I know

[near tartan]

mesa is not a linuxism

[brisk totem]

but mesa needs to talk to libwayland so youd have to patch libwayland

and youd need to patch most things unless you are drop in at which point you are just reimplementing libwayland

[storm bobcat]

Or write your own

yes

I literally asked if it was possible to write a portable libwayland reimpl

And you said no because of mesa

[brisk totem]

oh sorry i mean you cant have both at once

[storm bobcat]

can't have what

[brisk totem]

both impls

[storm bobcat]

can't have two libwaylands?

[brisk totem]

ye

[storm bobcat]

That's not an issue

[marble salmon]

you can make a wayland stack that's based just on POSIX if you really want to

wayland is just yeeting messages over unix sockets + SCM_RIGHTS

and it can work with ordinary temp files for the buffers

[brisk totem]

with posix AIO

[near tartan]

yeah

[brisk totem]

and yeah you can its just not a good idea

memfd is a good api tho i dont have anything against it

epoll is kinda jank

[near tartan]

but when i (or anyone else probably) am talking about running wayland that implies porting existing apps

i've looked this deep into the rabbit hole, and if i were to go through with it i'd be better off just contributing to managarm

for my goals with zinnia X is more than enough

[marble salmon]

well yeah basically you have chose between: "be compatible with another OS" or "patch existing software", there's not really a way around that

[near tartan]

yeah

as i said before, once i can run and use a xfce desktop that's basically me done with this

it's just to learn the basics after all (and do the occasional meme like DRM)

[storm bobcat]

Why not try to make a good thing

[near tartan]

because managarm

[median forge]

managarm monopoly

[storm bobcat]

?

[near tartan]

managarm is a much more complete project

that's actually worth to put time into

my entire kernel is just hacked together with shortcuts left and right

[storm bobcat]

How does that stop you from making your own project but good

[near tartan]

well the thing is

in osdev there's never a "you're done now" stage

but i want to move on at some point, i want to feel "done" with something

without a definitive goal it's just always "ah i still need to implement x"

for example i wanted to write a wayland wm at some point

[storm bobcat]

Yeah but you can always have some kind of long-standing goal without taking shortcuts

[near tartan]

i guess

doesn't feel very satisfying tbh

there are just things about osdev i don't like to do (none in particular, sometimes it's just cancer to model in your head) and having other people working on a project to help with that is an awesome feeling

i can just focus on the parts that i enjoy

at least xfce is my long term goal

i'll probably end up coming back to it from time to time, once i have it all working right

[storm bobcat]

join Zag

[near tartan]

[median forge]

it requires some dbus pain and gtk pain

[near tartan]

i already have xfce ported

it's just a matter of running it

[near tartan]

or i'll start doing what monkuous is doing, just

spawn in random project
drop 2000 line patch
leave

[median forge]

i had xfce ported too but it refused to run

(my kernel bug)

[near tartan]

either way

dinit is working fully now

[near tartan]

hello.c compiled on zinnia!

(direct gcc invocation didn't really work yet for some reason)

[grave peak]

bro doesnt know that puts already adds a new line

[near tartan]

shush

[grave peak]

[hybrid island]

go call fputs if you want to write \n smh

[shy turret]

Or printf

[hybrid island]

imagine doing printf when fputs would do smh

[near tartan]

wtf is gcc doing

why is it trying to run /usr/bin/cc1

[storm bobcat]

that is how gcc works?

[near tartan]

/usr/bin/cc1 is not a thing

[storm bobcat]

it calls like 5 subprograms

[near tartan]

not even on my linux

[brisk totem]

might be because you set it up wrong? idk

[near tartan]

probably

idfk

[brisk totem]

maybe not

whats the specs file

run gcc -dumpspecs

[brisk totem]

ok that wasnt very helpful tbh

[near tartan]

/tmp/cc000000.o: file not recognized: file format not recognized

????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

why is clang doing execve("", ...)

[somber solar]

https://tenor.com/view/skill-issue-urge-resist-cat-gif-25536160

[near tartan]

clanger

[grave peak]

Clang bug

[near tartan]

my kernel sucks? no your program needs to be more resilient

[somber solar]

[shy turret]

Bash ran without a real VFS clang should be able to survive without execve

[zealous salmon]

bash is meant to run on everything

including your mom

so that's not surprising

including OSes without VFS

like Version 7 UNIX and DOS

[shy turret]

fair 💀

I am mostly joking regardless

[somber solar]

John Zinnia - pictured above - created Zinnia in 1984

[somber solar]

how did you compile it then?

[near tartan]

cc1

that worked for some reason

and then assembling/linking by hand

[somber solar]

^

[near tartan]

i hard linked the cc1 to /usr/bin/cc1

[somber solar]

ah

[near tartan]

cc1 is somewhere in libexec

idfk why it wants to run it from /bin

[somber solar]

maybe some option in gcc source

[near tartan]

the next two drivers I'd like to add are ps2 (via evdev) and virtio net

[fossil yoke]

what about windows 😄

[nocturne rampart]

Do e1000 instead

[shy turret]

Do an i210 too

I have some physical machines with that card

[marble salmon]

is it maybe doing fexecve / execveat?

[brisk totem]

just use -fintegrated-cc1

("Run cc1 in-process")

[near tartan]

is that a runtime flag

[brisk totem]

its a clang flag

and yes

[near tartan]

i wonder why gcc thinks /usr/bin/cc1 is the right location

[marsh holly]

What syscalls does it do involving cc1?

[near tartan]

it tries to do a brk for some reason

let me look at my config script again

[marsh holly]

I dont think thats the issue

[near tartan]

i can check all the syscalls later

[marsh holly]

Maybe you are spuriously returning success on some syscall like access(/usr/bin/cc1, F_OK) or stat or whatever

[near tartan]

hm

what's an easy program to test udp with

[eternal wharf]

dig maybe?

[near tartan]

hm

netcat maybe?

[eternal wharf]

can nc do udp? i know socat cat

[near tartan]

nc -u

[median forge]

can you show env

[near tartan]

it's right in the pic bro

[marsh holly]

socket() sendto() recvfrom()

Or believe it or not, dhcp client

[hoary cave]

why is this mf tryna do udp

[near tartan]

bc easy

[hoary cave]

how about u make xorg work first

[median forge]

maybe setting PATH can help ?

[near tartan]

it works
?

[marsh holly]

Zinnia vs fishix competing on the osdev speedrun

[hoary cave]

go implement evdev

[near tartan]

yeah

[hoary cave]

and ps2

[near tartan]

when xhci

[hoary cave]

chop chop

[near tartan]

i get off work in 2h

[hoary cave]

when it doesnt deadlock every 3rd boot

[near tartan]

i fixed it

[hoary cave]

really?

nice

[near tartan]

just need to push

[hoary cave]

bruh

[near tartan]

also X doesn't crash anymore

[marsh holly]

Glxgears when

[near tartan]

good shout

[marble salmon]

python3 -c

[near tartan]

i mean python already works

hm

[marble salmon]

If you have it already, it's probably not a bad option to just write a 5 line script

[near tartan]

one thing i don't know how to do solve yet is the network stack

sure i could write my own

stuff like routing, dhcp and the sort

[hoary cave]

don't do dhcp in the kernel pls

that's cringe

[marble salmon]

yeah just hardcode an ip in the kernel instead

[near tartan]

💀

[near tartan]

when did i say that

[magic charm]

Its quite fun

[near tartan]

I don't know what I'm doing tho

my logic has been

does it work?

• no: kernel is broken
• yes: must be correct then

[somber solar]

consider lwip

[near tartan]

it's that somewhat complete

[somber solar]

https://www.nongnu.org/lwip/2_1_x/index.html

see features:

[near tartan]

ig what i mean is not the kernel side

but interacting with the user

like configuring routes and dhcp

[somber solar]

it has dhcp

I haven't read much else about it

[near tartan]

no but this seems like something akin to uacpi

[magic charm]

I ported dhcpcd, you get choice of several solutions that way

[near tartan]

but that does netlink

[brisk totem]

or smoltcp

[magic charm]

Or a traditional BSD routing socket

[near tartan]

oh

didn't know that

[magic charm]

Or solaris's interface

In principle it probably wouldn't be too hard to add your own if you wanted a NIH interface. But either a routing socket or netlink are reasonable I think

[marsh holly]

SIOCSIFADDR etc

Theres a route add ioctl as well

[near tartan]

where is that from?

[marsh holly]

I dont have netlink or similar on astral

[marsh holly]

Some linux ioctls I think?

Im not sure if they wte linux only or are in other systems

[magic charm]

SIOCSIF{ADDR,NETMASK,FLAGS}/SIOCADDRT and family come from early BSD

4.4BSD introduced the routing socket as the new interface

[near tartan]

evtest on PS/2 keyboard with evdev interface :D

[grave peak]

amazing

[near tartan]

i think sockets are still a bit fucky

i also have no idea of knowing if xorg recognizes evdev inputs

[near tartan]

i finally get to do the meme now

[median forge]

port mesa

[nocturne rampart]

Ah evdev
Nice

[nocturne rampart]

Oh yeah have you looked into doing it in userspace?
Like the nic driver only exposes a few ioctls and operations to read (receive) and write (send) but the processing is done in userspace?

[near tartan]

kinda

i meant more configuring routes and stuff

[nocturne rampart]

Oh alright

[near tartan]

idk i haven't looked into it at all, i just assume I'll have to implement something

[near tartan]

i have mesa

[near tartan]

i guess i'm doing wayland again

fuck it

we ball

i implemented epoll using some epoll example i found online

https://suchprogramming.com/epoll-in-3-easy-steps/

this is the code

[grave peak]

Lol

That was enough for you?

[near tartan]

wdym

[grave peak]

Its a pretty complex one

Congrats

[near tartan]

my impl is probably wrong

but who care

[grave peak]

If KDE works it works

[near tartan]

i also have this

[grave peak]

[near tartan]

(using my libudev shim)

[grave peak]

I keep forgetting

You're doing your own syscall layer right

[near tartan]

yes

[grave peak]

But you added epoll

[near tartan]

i don't even have mlibc's linux option on

yeah

it's also present in other kernels

[grave peak]

Oh ok

[near tartan]

and kqueue + epoll shim is on bsd

but yes i will also implement some of the stupid linux *fd syscalls

whatever you need for wayland

this is what libwayland wants

[storm bobcat]

some are cool tho

memfd is nice

timerfd too

[near tartan]

signalfd not so much

and eventfd

[storm bobcat]

they have everythingfd

they finally realized capabilities are cool

[near tartan]

hm

i would've liked to port riverwm but it's written in zig

:/

unfortunate

https://sin-ack.github.io/posts/sycl-talk-20221007/

urgh

that does not sound fun at all

I'd rather port rust

[storm bobcat]

It's probably different now

[near tartan]

[near tartan]

fixed some ps2 weirdness that caused the input to go bonkers

so now i can actually click stuff

[grave peak]

Have you done any real hw tests yet

[near tartan]

not yet

iirc the nvme driver hangs because i don't actually wait for any commands to complete during setup

my laptop can do ps2 emulation so i might try that

[grave peak]

Wait wdym

[near tartan]

you're supposed to wait for a bit to let the controller reset

but i just go on with my day

[grave peak]

Lol

[near tartan]

in qemu this is fine because it's sync i think

at least it doesn't happen there

[grave peak]

QEMU doesn't emulate any delays

[near tartan]

ig i can try logging to fbcon

should work

[near tartan]

oh and i recompiled xorg here with epoll support btw

and i already see it using it

[somber solar]

systemd when

[near tartan]

never

i hate it

[near tartan]

i do need to figure out why weston doesn't like my socket

riveting

getting wayland on a posix (+ small extensions) system would be fucking cool

only requires a small amount of bullshit

at least it seems to not crash randomly

even after 4 hours of runtime

which is a new record

[grave peak]

U had it running for 4 hours?

[near tartan]

yeah at some point

forgot to exit qemu

and it was still pretty responsive

the most glaring issue in the entire kernel is that there's no unmap

so no tlb shootdowns happening

or anything for that matter

[near tartan]

doing that rn

then bed

[grave peak]

Bed test

[near tartan]

ok

e14 first

lol ofc hangs in nvme

[grave peak]

Why do you preallocate all GSIs?

[near tartan]

These aren't gsis

[grave peak]

Well all ioapic inputs

[near tartan]

does it matter?

[grave peak]

Well yeah you might run out of space quick if you set up msis for a few devices on top

[near tartan]

i have per cpu interrupts

oh the framework actually works!

[grave peak]

Ideally u want per cpu interrupts also tho

[near tartan]

gets further than managarm

[grave peak]

Lol

[near tartan]

oh fuck oh fuck

infy

read the error message

do you know what this fuckass kernel just did

or tried doing

[grave peak]

What

[near tartan]

ext2: bad magic

(i have a linux install on there with ext4)

[somber solar]

isn't that just read

shouldn't affect anything

[near tartan]

so safe to say nvme works

but that's food enough for me tbh

way better than before

let's try my pc

[grave peak]

Why does managarm die on it?

[near tartan]

they do eager pci enumeration and apparently writing to the GOP while writing the gpus bar makes it stall

[grave peak]

Hm

[near tartan]

but i only lazily evaluate pci device bar sizes

oops

nvm it does actually boot

insane

now if only i had usb input

[grave peak]

Cool

[somber solar]

@ iretq

[near tartan]

i tried to use clanker to make a signalfd impl but it was horribly dogshit

ill just do it myself

[storm bobcat]

💀

[near tartan]

well nothing really needed it so far

[storm bobcat]

fishix level

[near tartan]

and tlb shootdowns are something I don't know how to solve correctly

[storm bobcat]

#1322494605819908156 message

[near tartan]

i have an idt vector allocated for the shootdown ipi but it does nothing rn

[somber solar]

yoink

[near tartan]

ugh this is going to be horrible with rust types i think

[storm bobcat]

it's pretty over engineered

you can just do synchronous tlb shootdowns

[near tartan]

slow tho

[storm bobcat]

if you batch them its not that bad

afaik there's no major kernel actually doing asychronous shootdowns

[near tartan]

i might tackle this today

can't be that hard after all

[storm bobcat]

yeah just have an atomic counter and spin until its == to ncpus

[near tartan]

today = same day after sleeping

[near tartan]

what

[storm bobcat]

what what

just have an atomic counter that is incremented (or decremented) by every CPU and spin on it until its complete

[near tartan]

oh you mean while waiting for the shootdowns to complete

[storm bobcat]

yes

that is how you do it synchronously

[near tartan]

that makes an insane amount of sense

i wonder if i can encode physical memory allocations in rusts type system

i.e. PhysFrames that are deallocates on drop

it's impressive how many things in zinnia just work without me trying

months ago you would have random shit happening like getting fpu gpfs because the kernel stack was too small and overwrote fpu state

year of the zinnia desktop is upon us

(unless i rewrite again)

[somber solar]

in zig this time

[near tartan]

c

if I'm not writing rust I'm writing C

[somber solar]

iirc someone said that you write rust like c lol

I don't remember who

[near tartan]

nothing wrong with that

im still using rust language features

[storm bobcat]

based

[near tartan]

i.e. using traits instead of making vtable structs

[storm bobcat]

zinnia starts with z

[somber solar]

yeah I didn't mean that it's bad

[storm bobcat]

z = zig

[near tartan]

rinnia

[somber solar]

cinnia

[near tartan]

based

one really nice thing about rust over c is its strict typing

you can hardly misuse a public api

maybe this says more about me being a shit c developer than a rust developer

[somber solar]

what c code I've seen from you looked clean

[near tartan]

[near tartan]

weston progress

we can talk to seatd!

now i just have to stub my libudev to return the drm device

[near tartan]

more things happening

[near tartan]

almost

[grave peak]

Where do u get these resolutions?

[near tartan]

wdym

the resolutions are matched in the virtio_gpu driver

[grave peak]

No I mean

How do u come up with these lists

Its the same res with different hz

[near tartan]

they're static data from EDID

[grave peak]

Ah ok

[near tartan]

i have a DMT_TABLE

ripped from xf86 shit

[grave peak]

Does Weston start now?

[near tartan]

no

im still trying

[grave peak]

[near tartan]

it's trying to traw shit

[grave peak]

U enosys something looks like

[near tartan]

ftruncate

[idle flower]

Yes, that's what I am doing with {phys,virt} {address,lvXBlockAddress}(Handle)

Including using closure with the physical structs that then temporarily map their page to access them from virtual memory

[near tartan]

eh imo that's a bit useless

you can just do hhdm

[idle flower]

spectre/meltdown + hw that puts ram on the higher end of the address space

[near tartan]

huh

why does that matter

[idle flower]

besides, my kernel doesnt really need to poke usermemory directly

[near tartan]

same

i have virtual memory objects

[near tartan]

WESTON ALARM

@sick flax @fair lintel

[somber solar]

based

year of the zinnia desktop

[grave peak]

Lol what are these things on the screen

Congrats tho

[near tartan]

weston-flower and weston-image with a random xfce image i found

my ptys are a bit broken so no terminal yet

we dont talk about the broken font

[grave peak]

why is it broken?

[near tartan]

font config i assume

[marsh holly]

Managarm larp

[near tartan]

?????

[marsh holly]

Hell yeah tho

[near tartan]

😭

[marsh holly]

Weston = managarm

[near tartan]

ofc

[magic charm]

based

[sick flax]

Based. When KDE

[near tartan]

soon tm

[drowsy tendon]

inshallah xfce will run soon also

[near tartan]

🙏

[near tartan]

WE HAVE A WESTON-TERMINAL

LFG

(still no input sadly)

[grave peak]

get KDE first, worry about input later

[near tartan]

@sick flax when you wake up

am i missing fonts here?

[drowsy tendon]

i've been praying for times like these 🙏

[somber solar]

no fastfetch logo?

[near tartan]

@drowsy tendon is fixing that

[somber solar]

@near tartan https://github.com/zinnia-os/zinnia/issues/42

[near tartan]

[somber solar]

how does it overflow

[near tartan]

the calculation does

i dont do the division hack with the frequency that managarm does

fonts fixed

@hoary cave

[somber solar]

what was the problem?

[near tartan]

no fonts installed

[somber solar]

lol

[storm bobcat]

damn this is really cool

congrats

[near tartan]

thx

[storm bobcat]

did you have to implemetn a bunch of linux stuff in the end or not

[near tartan]

yes

[grave peak]

congrats

[near tartan]

epoll, signalfd, timerfd

and i had to stub libudev

but i think this udev will be very useful

you can essentially hard code uevents

[storm bobcat]

epoll is the only thing in there that I dont like personally

idk what signalfd is

[near tartan]

you can poll on it and await a signal

idk what the point is

people online seem to be against it

[grave peak]

get signal as an event instead of a violent nmi

[storm bobcat]

ah that doesnt seem so bad

[grave peak]

its pretty good

[near tartan]

it's simple to impl really

it was about 100 lines

*130 + syscall plumbing

[grave peak]

yeah i mean its eventfd + glue to set it from a signal

[grave peak]

u implement this right?

[near tartan]

yeah

[grave peak]

damn

do u fill it in properly?

[near tartan]

no

i just set ssi_signo and ssi_code

[grave peak]

fair

[near tartan]

i'm trying to get weston to boot with dinit so i can try booting on my laptop

[grave peak]

Do u list one single res on real hw?

[near tartan]

yes

real hw being plainfbdrm

it also doesn't advertise modesetting

works with Weston regardless

[grave peak]

Cool

Did u test it?

[near tartan]

no i couldn't figure out how to get seatd running in dinit

[grave peak]

[near tartan]

there is a ready notify feature in dinit

but seatd fails for some reason

[hoary cave]

banger

[drowsy tendon]

i admit defeat

https://tenor.com/view/please7tv-please-beg-pray-hope-gif-3860103425950934673

[marsh holly]

Linux larp or bsd larp, pick a struggle bro /j

[near tartan]

say wallahi bro

[grave raptor]

correct

[hybrid island]

This message is a month old bruh 💀

[near tartan]

fixed some long standing problematic issues