uACPI - a portable and easy-to-integrate ACPI implementation | Operating System Development | Page 59

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:42 PM

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ah right nvm

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:42 PM

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EAGAIN means that a (usually non-blocking) operation failed to make progress

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 1:42 PM

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I think it was pretty tricky in managarm to do it right?

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:42 PM

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wdym?

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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fiery turtle wdym?

isnt that what iretq said

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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hallow marten I think it was pretty tricky in managarm to do it right?

this is not upstream yet in Managarm

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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and u said

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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yeah

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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^

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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u need syscall cancellation so u can canel e.g. huge writes

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but its optional

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u dont have to implement that

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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okay

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thats good then

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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or if u have a blocking read that hangs

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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makes things SLIGHTLY easier ™️

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:43 PM

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It's not really optional

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:44 PM

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for a production os

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:44 PM

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flat badge It's not really optional

im guessing for perfomance reasons?

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:44 PM

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no

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:44 PM

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oh

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:44 PM

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you can get pretty far w/o EINTR support as Managarm demonstrates but it's pretty much needed for process management to work properly

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:44 PM

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like u cant cancel blocking reads otherwise for example

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wait managarm doesnt have EINTR?

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:45 PM

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flat badge you can get pretty far w/o EINTR support as Managarm demonstrates but it's prett...

wym so?

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:45 PM

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fiery turtle like u cant cancel blocking reads otherwise for example

okay and is that rlly that BAD?

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:45 PM

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i mean what do u do if bash is doing a poll syscall

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without user input

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and u want to kill it

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u cant because its in a syscall

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:46 PM

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fuck

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well guess nyaux needs interruptable syscalls

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:47 PM

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id say its not high on the priority list

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at least get basic signals working

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:47 PM

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dusky glade well guess nyaux needs interruptable syscalls

nah id rather get it working now first

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:47 PM

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well if u dont have signals wtf are u going to use to interrupt them

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:47 PM

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idk timer interrupt?

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:47 PM

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timer interrupts dont cancel syscalls lol

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a signal is a software concept

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:48 PM

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fiery turtle timer interrupts dont cancel syscalls lol

oh wait im stupid nvm

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right

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:48 PM

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📎 test.img

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 1:48 PM

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bruh no way

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im compiling linux atm

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:49 PM

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output is sent to serial on this image, kernel is x86_64 defconfig 2c4a1f3fe03edab80db66688360685031802160a

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:49 PM

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wait why do u need this lol

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:49 PM

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they asked for it idk

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 1:49 PM

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idk I'm gonna play with it

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see if I was right

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:49 PM

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you're gonna make a jit for uacpi-linux?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:50 PM

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also note that uacpi-linux doesn't work on efi systems because it finds rsdp by searching low memory

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 1:50 PM

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maybe eventually I'll try jitting it just to optimize the qemu stuff but now I'm just going to try mimalloc

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:50 PM

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ah

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:50 PM

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fiery turtle wait managarm doesnt have EINTR?

There's a PR for it but it needs to be cleaned up

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:50 PM

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idea: AOT compile the qemu blob

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:51 PM

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to see pure perf gain u could AOT the simple math test i have

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that would give u the perfect world speed up

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where it doesnt do hw io

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 1:51 PM

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gentle peak

ah I get 4 mil

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pretty good

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:51 PM

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JITing AML sounds pretty stupid tbh

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:52 PM

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bragging rights

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:52 PM

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i doubt that you'll get a huge speedup

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:52 PM

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very important imo

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:52 PM

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on real AML

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unless you ignore the compilation time

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:52 PM

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i just make it so sched_perform_wait returns EINTR when the wait is interrupted (unless it's a non-interruptible wait ofc) and that error is propagated to the syscall boundary

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:52 PM

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true

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:52 PM

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which sounds like cheating

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:52 PM

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well there are methods u call all the time at runtime

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e.g. battery stats

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if u aot those u save tons of cycles in the long run

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 1:53 PM

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flat badge i doubt that you'll get a huge speedup

why not

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 1:53 PM

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that's true

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because the compilation is not for free and 95% of the AML only runs once

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:53 PM

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for a produciton env i'd probably have a uacpi_eval_compile or something

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thats used for methods called frequently

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and it would recursively compile everything called by the method

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including EC queries etc

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like for example for monkuous' old laptop that does calls to a GPE AML handler with an absolutely gigantic while loop it could save tons of cycles and power

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:56 PM

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aml firmware devs after writing the most shit aml known to man

calm latch Jun 12, 2025, 1:56 PM

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It wasn't very difficult with my kernel

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:56 PM

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gentle peak i just make it so sched_perform_wait returns EINTR when the wait is interrupted ...

yeah thats fair

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@gentle peak did u get ACPICA working?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:59 PM

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i just did like 30s ago yeah

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:59 PM

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ah

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:59 PM

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where do i add the timing stuff?

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 1:59 PM

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what was the issue?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 1:59 PM

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fiery turtle what was the issue?

the acpica docs omit several calls from the init sequence in some places

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i was unfortunately looking at those places

dusky glade Jun 12, 2025, 1:59 PM

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gentle peak i just did like 30s ago yeah

okay now to be fair the fucking pointer shit u did to get ACPICA working was big brain

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to get sized frees

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:00 PM

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specifically i was missing AcpiInitializeTables

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:00 PM

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ah

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:00 PM

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just to confirm this is the right init sequence right ```c
ACPI_STATUS status = AcpiInitializeSubsystem();
if (ACPI_FAILURE(status)) {
fprintf(stderr, "devicesd: failed to initialize subsystem: %s\n", AcpiFormatException(status));
exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
}

status = AcpiInitializeTables(NULL, 16, FALSE);
if (ACPI_FAILURE(status)) {
    fprintf(stderr, "devicesd: failed to initialize tables: %s\n", AcpiFormatException(status));
    exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
}

status = AcpiLoadTables();
if (ACPI_FAILURE(status)) {
    fprintf(stderr, "devicesd: failed to load tables: %s\n", AcpiFormatException(status));
    exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
}

pci_init_acpi_tables();

status = AcpiEnableSubsystem(ACPI_FULL_INITIALIZATION);
if (ACPI_FAILURE(status)) {
    fprintf(stderr, "devicesd: failed to enable subsystem: %s\n", AcpiFormatException(status));
    exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
}

status = AcpiInitializeObjects(ACPI_FULL_INITIALIZATION);
if (ACPI_FAILURE(status)) {
    fprintf(stderr, "devicesd: failed to initialize objects: %s\n", AcpiFormatException(status));
    exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
}```

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:00 PM

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i think so?

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so basically

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I think AcpiLoadTables is the uacpi benchmark

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yeah

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slap a timer around the call to that

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:01 PM

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right so i should probably move pci_init_acpi_tables() to above that lol

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:01 PM

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yeah

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I think AcpiInitializeTables is like early table access

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maybe

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:02 PM

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AcpiLoadTables took 0.000832993 seconds

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now i have to modify uacpi to output with that much precision ig

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:03 PM

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can u just output nanosconds?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:03 PM

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if you mentally block the decimal point that is nanoseconds

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:03 PM

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btw

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technically this is not entirely fair

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https://github.com/acpica/acpica/blob/038cfc8f6208d6ff989d8ce103f5fbe9ceb0d5ad/source/components/tables/tbxfload.c#L207

GitHub

acpica/source/components/tables/tbxfload.c at 038cfc8f6208d6ff989d8...

The ACPI Component Architecture (ACPICA) project provides an open-source operating system-independent implementation of the Advanced Configuration and Power Interface specification (ACPI). For det...

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u want to put the start here

left orbit Jun 12, 2025, 2:04 PM

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what the

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:04 PM

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and the end at the very bottom of the function

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:04 PM

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ah ok

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:04 PM

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lets give acpica a completely fair treatment trl

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:06 PM

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alright with that it seems to be 683,482 nanoseconds

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:06 PM

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gentle peak ah ok

in uacpi i did this previously uacpi_info("elapsed nanoseconds %" UACPI_PRIu64 " (%"UACPI_PRIu64" ms)\n", UACPI_FMT64(end_ts - begin_ts), UACPI_FMT64(elapsed_ms(begin_ts, end_ts)));

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:08 PM

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uacpi is consistently around 217,999 nanoseconds

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 2:08 PM

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yeah nvm my experiments its too annoying to setup for now

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:08 PM

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gentle peak uacpi is consistently around 217,999 nanoseconds

damn so 3x holds up even in qemu

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 2:08 PM

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I was just gonna try it if it wouldnt take a while

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:08 PM

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fiery turtle damn so 3x holds up even in qemu

yeah, now i wanna test real hw :)

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:08 PM

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ah yeah

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:09 PM

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luckily unless some catastrophic bug has been introduced in the past week or so this image should already be real hw capable

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:09 PM

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how do u print uacpi's score btw?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:10 PM

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diff --git a/source/uacpi.c b/source/uacpi.c
index c6c569f..db05e4f 100644
--- a/source/uacpi.c
+++ b/source/uacpi.c
@@ -492,10 +492,10 @@ uacpi_status uacpi_namespace_load(void)
 
         uacpi_info(
             "successfully loaded %u AML blob%s, %"UACPI_PRIu64" ops in "
-            "%"UACPI_PRIu64"ms (avg %"UACPI_PRIu64"/s)\n",
+            "%"UACPI_PRIu64"ms (avg %"UACPI_PRIu64"/s) %lu nanoseconds\n",
             st.load_counter, st.load_counter > 1 ? "s" : "",
             UACPI_FMT64(ops), UACPI_FMT64(elapsed_ms(begin_ts, end_ts)),
-            UACPI_FMT64(ops_per_sec)
+            UACPI_FMT64(ops_per_sec), end_ts - begin_ts
         );
     }

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:10 PM

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ah

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are u gonna test on your toshiba

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:11 PM

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yea

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don't feel like rebooting my main pc

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:11 PM

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it has some insane handcrafted aml so should be a good test

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i wonder if its gonna be an even bigger difference because acpica has to do a two pass thing

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and real hw has more things to two pass over

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:12 PM

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i should really look into setting up pxe this is painful

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:12 PM

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btw make sure u have slack mode enabled in acpica

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or real hw might not work

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and this is -O3 -flto right?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:13 PM

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yeah

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:13 PM

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ok nice

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:14 PM

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fiery turtle btw make sure u have slack mode enabled in acpica

would it fail quietly or can i try it without

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:14 PM

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it would fail loudly dw

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if slack mode is off it acts more like spec and less like nt

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:15 PM

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alr just checking, never know with acpica

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:15 PM

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linux has slack mode on by default i think

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:16 PM

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with acpica i do get ACPI Error: AE_NOT_FOUND, While resolving a named reference package element - \_SB_.PCI0.EHC1.HUB0.RMH0.PRT6 (20250404/dspkginit-497)

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this is expected, i also get it in linux

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however it does make the benchmark unfair because it now includes printing to fb

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:17 PM

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if lvl == err: return?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:17 PM

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what

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:17 PM

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like if it logs an error

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just dont log it

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:17 PM

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ah good point

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oh wait acpica doesn't pass log level to osl

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:17 PM

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ah fuck

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strcmp time

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this error is because it resolves packages that have no reason to be resolved

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because of its two pass thing

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:18 PM

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well it politely printed the location of the message for me so here we go again

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:18 PM

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lol

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:22 PM

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acpica: ```
10,902,209 nanoseconds
10,899,233 nanoseconds
10,910,798 nanoseconds

uacpi: ```
6,227,036 nanoseconds
6,240,330 nanoseconds
6,239,922 nanoseconds

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:22 PM

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oh well

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still not too bad

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almost 2x

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:22 PM

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yeah

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:22 PM

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main pc test? trl

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how many ops btw

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:23 PM

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i'm also curious how the performance differs outside init when everything is already mapped and caches are hot and such but i feel like that's much harder to benchmark

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:23 PM

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yeah

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:23 PM

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even though it's what matters more

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:24 PM

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fiery turtle how many ops btw

i'll check in a few, doing main pc acpica tests first (since the image on the usb rn is the acpica one)

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:24 PM

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nice

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:31 PM

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main pc (Gigabyte B550M S2H, Ryzen 5800X, 64G RAM, 10097 ops)
acpica: ```
3,936,953 nanoseconds
3,951,551 nanoseconds
3,950,898 nanoseconds

uacpi: ```
1,903,459 nanoseconds
1,906,726 nanoseconds
1,902,077 nanoseconds

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:31 PM

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nice

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so looks like it's consistently at least 2x

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:31 PM

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Toshiba was 4962 ops

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:31 PM

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pretty smol

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:33 PM

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fiery turtle so looks like it's consistently at least 2x

During init at least yeah

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What matters is the runtime performance but that's harder to test

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:33 PM

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yeah its kinda hard to test that

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so Im adding it to the readme

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@gentle peak can u give the actual model for this toshiba laptop?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:45 PM

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Toshiba Portege R30-A, Intel Core i5-4200M, 4GB RAM

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:45 PM

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nice

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thanks

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:45 PM

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oh and uhh firmware versions

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:45 PM

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right..

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technically this should be included

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:46 PM

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toshiba is 4.40
main pc is F19d

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:46 PM

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nice

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:48 PM

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also unrelated but recursive paging has a surprisingly significant positive impact on uacpi score

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went from 7.5-8.0M to 8.0-8.5M

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all i did was replace the manual page table walking in the page fault handler with recursive paging

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:53 PM

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interesting

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https://github.com/uACPI/uACPI/tree/3.0?tab=readme-ov-file#1-performance

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this is my current draft

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:55 PM

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lgtm apart from this leftover text

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:57 PM

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yeah fixing this atm

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:57 PM

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also when you update os scores the description for proxima should probably be changed to mention it runs uacpi in userspace now

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:57 PM

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yup will do

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:57 PM

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idk what term to use since it's not truly monolithic (drivers in userspace), not truly a microkernel (vfs and such in kernel), and hybrid means nothing

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:58 PM

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lol true

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doesnt matter that much

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you should probably come up with a new description tho

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 2:58 PM

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fiery turtle https://github.com/uACPI/uACPI/tree/3.0?tab=readme-ov-file#1-performance

Updated

vast kestrel Jun 12, 2025, 2:59 PM

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gentle peak idk what term to use since it's not truly monolithic (drivers in userspace), not...

minikernel

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:^)

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millikernel?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 2:59 PM

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i feel like making up my own new terminology is kinda counterproductive

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if anything i'd call it a hybrid kernel but that term already exists and it's mostly marketing

vast kestrel Jun 12, 2025, 3:00 PM

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Tbh I would still call it microkernel probably

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:00 PM

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@vast kestrel thoughts on the perf comparison docs?

vast kestrel Jun 12, 2025, 3:01 PM

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Will look at it once I get off the train

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:01 PM

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nice

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@gentle peak btw are you going to upstream ACPICA support as well?

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could be nice to keep for the future

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:02 PM

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nah i already wiped it from my local tree

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:02 PM

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damn lmfao

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:02 PM

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i don't think i'm gonna bother supporting multiple acpi implementations in the same source tree

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:02 PM

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abstracting it might be a bit annoying

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:04 PM

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acpi is already gonna have to be abstracted because devicesd is a separate process from actual drivers but yeah adding another abstraction layer within devicesd itself is a bit excessive imo

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:04 PM

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ah

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:05 PM

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at most i might make an acpica-based protocol-compatible devicesd reimplementation but even that's probably not gonna happen (simply not worth the effort)

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:05 PM

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hallow marten yeah nvm my experiments its too annoying to setup for now

whats the annoying part btw

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:06 PM

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well ideally it would link with libc and stuff

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and I didnt want to bother setting this all up for something I'll need in like a month or two

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:06 PM

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isnt libc linked in by default

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or am i missing something

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:06 PM

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hallow marten well ideally it would link with libc and stuff

just link with -static and without -nostdlib

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:07 PM

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yea I guess

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ok sec

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imma try again

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also mounting is annoying but that I can work with

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:08 PM

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couldnt u just do the shared drive thing

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:08 PM

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well I get 3710293/s

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with a fresh build I just did

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now imma try with mimalloc

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:08 PM

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which cpu?

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:09 PM

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5 5600x

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:09 PM

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ah

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is this wsl or native kvm

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:09 PM

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native

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wait this isnt q35

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817666/s 💔

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:09 PM

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yeah that has so few aml ops its basically a measurement error

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how 💀

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monkuous gets like 5x that with the same image

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:11 PM

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probs debug build?

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idk

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like

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:11 PM

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ah yeah

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:11 PM

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thats rebuilt uacpi

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locally

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:11 PM

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if u didnt do -O3 -flto

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etc

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:11 PM

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the image i sent used CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release CMAKE_INTERPROCEDURAL_OPTIMIZATION=ON

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:12 PM

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btw what is this

lto-wrapper: warning: using serial compilation of 3 LTRANS jobs
lto-wrapper: note: see the ‘-flto’ option documentation for more information
lto-wrapper: warning: using serial compilation of 11 LTRANS jobs
lto-wrapper: note: see the ‘-flto’ option documentation for more information

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how do i shut it up

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:12 PM

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wait

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can I mount images

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then write to them

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and without unmounting them

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I can run qemu

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:12 PM

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i don't think that's safe

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:12 PM

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cuz idk if what I'm doing is actually working

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:12 PM

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but you can always use vvfat

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:12 PM

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like just vvfat yeah

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just give it a directory

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and it works automagically

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:13 PM

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ah good I get 4958701/s now

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:13 PM

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fiery turtle btw what is this ``` lto-wrapper: warning: using serial compilation of 3 LTRANS ...

i have never seen this

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:13 PM

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i just added -flto directly to make and cmake

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wait

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https://stackoverflow.com/questions/72218980/gcc-v12-1-warning-about-serial-compilation

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apparently there's -flto=auto

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:15 PM

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hallow marten ah good I get 4958701/s now

what did u change

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:15 PM

#

the release build

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:15 PM

#

ah

#

@gentle peak what shall I use for the description now

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:16 PM

#

uhhh

#

Unix-like microkernel-based operating system with uACPI running in userspace

#

ig

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:16 PM

#

sure

#

sounds suspciously similar to pmos trl

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:17 PM

#

with the intention of (Unix-like microkernel)-based operating system not (Unix-like) (microkernel-based) operating system

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:17 PM

#

#1217009725711847465 message do I use this score?

#

or was that the mtuned one idr

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:17 PM

#

yea nothing relevant changed since then

#

uh

#

one sec

#

yeah thats mtuned

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:17 PM

#

yeah it is

#

this is the non mtuned one

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:18 PM

#

this one is the clean #1217009725711847465 message

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:18 PM

#

yep

#

10.4M damn

#

if anyone else has images to update the score send them here

#

im going to update the leaderboard today

#

and thats gonna be it for a while

#

i also have imaginarum scores and ilobilix

#

but nothing else

#

also nyaux i think

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:21 PM

#

theres a few issues open about scores isnt there

#

or prs?

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:21 PM

#

yeah those ill add as well

#

casually submitting a 200k score

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:24 PM

#

gentle peak just link with -static and without -nostdlib

I thought u couldnt link glibc statically?

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:24 PM

#

pretty sure you can

#

never tried but still

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:24 PM

#

interesting

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:25 PM

#

huh mimalloc isnt that fast apparently

#

or rather

#

it doesnt matter much for uacpi

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:25 PM

#

what score did u get?

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:25 PM

#

around 5mil

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:25 PM

#

well uacpi kinda is very much malloc bound so idk

#

maybe monkuous malloc is also fast

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:25 PM

#

maybe mimalloc would be better in a multithreaded context

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:26 PM

#

yep

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:28 PM

#

and JIT would probably slow it down like korona said

gentle peak Jun 12, 2025, 3:28 PM

#

I believe the malloc used in uacpi-linux is a variant of the proxima allocator, which is very fast for small objects but not super scalable and speed drops off quite a bit for every power of two you pass until you reach the page size

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:30 PM

#

mimalloc seems to have a slight perf improvement but not that much

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 3:31 PM

#

mimalloc should be quite good as a general purpose allocator but it's of course not fine tuned to this workload

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:31 PM

#

yeah

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 3:31 PM

#

iirc it's size classes are not only powers of two, so it will consume less memory than just using powers of 2

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:32 PM

#

idk what else I could really experiment with without adding a JIT and rewriting most of the uacpi interpreter meme

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:32 PM

#

btw @mortal yoke give this a try in qacpi

#

or if u give me the binary i could try myself

#

(or instructions on how to get one)

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

hallow marten and JIT would probably slow it down like korona said

depends on the workload

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

just for the benchmark

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

compiling the DSDT would probably be slower than just running it directly lol

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

for uacpi-linux I could cheat and just compile it once

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

because its so small

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

and since the test is run like 10 times

#

itd work

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

yeah

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

but that's cheating

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:33 PM

#

like it would be interesting to see just the raw speedup as if compilation was free

#

because technically it would only be used for methods that u run a lot

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:34 PM

#

there must be another way to improve speeds of interpreters right

#

meme

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:34 PM

#

true

#

but orders of magintude gains are only possible if u jit unfortunately

#

like if u optimize uacpi's interpreter for like a year u could maybe squeeze out like a 1.2-1.5 gain

#

but much higher than that i kinda doubt

flat badge Jun 12, 2025, 3:37 PM

#

aml evaluation perf is not that important anyway

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:37 PM

#

only during interrupt storms trl

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:38 PM

#

flat badge aml evaluation perf is not that important anyway

no

#

it is

kindred beacon Jun 12, 2025, 3:38 PM

#

catering to shit hardware is definitely a good idea troll

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:38 PM

#

of the utmost improtance

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 3:38 PM

#

imagine optimizing any part of the os besides aml eval speed

hallow marten Jun 12, 2025, 3:38 PM

#

yes

kindred beacon Jun 12, 2025, 3:46 PM

#

uACPI doesn't create .pc files, right?

#

I'll prob just add that to the meson.build so managarm can stop symlinking stuff into subprojects

dense steppe Jun 12, 2025, 3:58 PM

#

one alternative might be to write an "ACPICA compatibility layer" AKA what you would need anyways for Linux people to be happy. then you get this basically for free.

#

oh, I should've read further down before I wrote that.

#

but yeah...

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 4:10 PM

#

Yeah I figure out a way to make a fair test, I forgot aml had a way to get ticks

vast kestrel Jun 12, 2025, 4:15 PM

#

I think for a long time in acpica timer returned an incrementing number (and not ticks)

#

Or well, at least Linux did it, idk if acpica did

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 4:36 PM

#

Lol

#

Why

#

on linux at least it just uses gettimeofday https://github.com/acpica/acpica/blob/038cfc8f6208d6ff989d8ce103f5fbe9ceb0d5ad/source/os_specific/service_layers/osunixxf.c#L1297

#

well in userspace

frank canopy Jun 12, 2025, 4:58 PM

#

btw @fiery turtle, does uacpi_initialize do anything other than tables?

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 4:58 PM

#

yes

#

i mean just open it

#

https://github.com/acpica/acpica/issues/1027#issuecomment-2963762319

GitHub

Calling method with wrong number of arguments leads to unbootable L...

A recent Dell firmware update has caused various Dell laptops, and other systems, to become unbootable on several Linux distributions, including Fedora Linux. This is a particularly severe problem ...

#

they finally attached a dump

frank canopy Jun 12, 2025, 4:59 PM

#

fiery turtle i mean just open it

fair lol

#

also continuing to be sad about the for_each methods just because that pattern doesnt mesh well with language interop so i still effectively need to use the ones that allocate an array for resources

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:01 PM

#

wdym?

frank canopy Jun 12, 2025, 5:06 PM

#

zig's got a couple of language features that are straight up not compatible with c calling conventions (most notable error returns, which involve two-register returns and an extra ghost parameter)

#

so if i need to pass a callback im locked out of error returns, and error return tracing

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:07 PM

#

I mean cant u just iterate the array manually?

frank canopy Jun 12, 2025, 5:07 PM

#

yeah no it works

#

just means cant benefit from any possible memory savings from using for_each methods

#

if there are any

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:08 PM

#

U mean for_each_device thing?

#

The one where u don't need the array

frank canopy Jun 12, 2025, 5:10 PM

#

for_each_resource is the main one that actually matters here, and idk how memory compares either way

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:10 PM

#

That one is just a simple wrapper, it still allocates internally, so no memory losses there

frank canopy Jun 12, 2025, 5:11 PM

#

ah ok cool

#

then no issues

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:11 PM

#

And for each just iterates an existing array so it doesn't really need to allocate

#

One previously acquired from get current resources etc

frank canopy Jun 12, 2025, 5:11 PM

#

👍

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:12 PM

#

Btw couldn't u propagate the error via a struct pointed to by the user pointer?

frank canopy Jun 12, 2025, 5:28 PM

#

yes but you still lose the error return trace

#

i looked into it before

#

the advent of the function to get the next device rendered the callbacks entirely unneeded

#

just saw the comment added here about using for_each_device_resource and thought id ask if there were actual memory savings or if its just a convenience thing

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:34 PM

#

yeah no just convenience

mortal yoke Jun 12, 2025, 5:35 PM

#

fiery turtle btw <@379250891838193667> give this a try in qacpi

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:36 PM

#

can u send over the binary

#

so i can test on my cpu

#

or wel

#

how do i build it

mortal yoke Jun 12, 2025, 5:39 PM

#

the repo has your test runner py that should build the runner (though the default timeout of 2s is not sufficient for this)

#

📎 test-runner

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:40 PM

#

ill build it myself, ill also tune for my cpu

mortal yoke Jun 12, 2025, 5:42 PM

#

for the timeout you can add ctx.loop_timeout_seconds = 20; to here https://github.com/Qwinci/qacpi/blob/main/tests/runner/test_runner.cpp#L213

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:45 PM

#

aml debug: 10,000,000 additions took 6486 ms

#

slightly behind uacpi

#

i get 4.7

#

acpcia gets 16.7

mortal yoke Jun 12, 2025, 5:49 PM

#

nice

fiery turtle Jun 12, 2025, 5:51 PM

#

Yeah well done

fierce kiln Jun 12, 2025, 8:22 PM

#

no aml syntax highlighting... discord L

kindred beacon Jun 12, 2025, 8:28 PM

#

https://github.com/highlightjs/highlight.js

GitHub

GitHub - highlightjs/highlight.js: JavaScript syntax highlighter wi...

JavaScript syntax highlighter with language auto-detection and zero dependencies. - highlightjs/highlight.js

hollow elm Jun 12, 2025, 8:43 PM

#

kindred beacon https://github.com/highlightjs/highlight.js

then you just have to wait 10 eons for 1) a new release of hljs 2) discord to update to it

woeful rock Jun 13, 2025, 2:27 AM

#

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 2:58 AM

#

nice

woeful rock Jun 13, 2025, 3:12 AM

#

I think this test case is just a happy path in my parser. I store locals in a preallocated array so the tight loop doesn't trigger much memory allocation.

hallow marten Jun 13, 2025, 3:13 AM

#

Is that your own interpreter?

#

Nice

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 9:07 AM

#

Nice

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 9:08 AM

#

woeful rock I think this test case is just a happy path in my parser. I store locals in a pr...

Would you use after free if someone returns a reference to a local?

#

Also is it public?

woeful rock Jun 13, 2025, 9:31 AM

#

There are several annoying situations where I need to "promote" values from locals onto the heap. That would be one of them, though I'm not sure if I actually handle it or not. May just error out. I'll test it sometime 🙂

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 9:31 AM

#

ah ok

#

i can test on my cpu if u want, should be faster

#

how do u process aml in general?

#

and how complete is it

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 11:02 AM

#

the current imaginarium score is bigger than that, do u want me to update to this?

#

https://github.com/uACPI/uACPI/tree/3.0?tab=readme-ov-file#notable-projects-using-uacpi--performance-leaderboards

#

i've updated the leaderboard pls take a look

#

going to merge very very soon

#

ilobilix is now top 2 lol

surreal current Jun 13, 2025, 11:09 AM

#

i pronounce uacpi as wack pee

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 11:10 AM

#

nooo

surreal current Jun 13, 2025, 11:12 AM

#

but its not wack pee at all i consider it more along the lines of cool shit

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 11:12 AM

#

well thanks

north hull Jun 13, 2025, 11:52 AM

#

oof I should've updated

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 11:53 AM

#

alright

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 11:53 AM

#

north hull oof I should've updated

well u can sumbit an update for the next batch

#

1000 commits passed

#

also made an issue for submissions now https://github.com/uACPI/uACPI/issues/135

torpid root Jun 13, 2025, 12:09 PM

#

yooo

#

nice

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 12:11 PM

#

torpid root nice

at least try to look professional as second place LULW \

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 1:04 PM

#

https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v6.15/source/arch/x86/mm/init.c#L417

#

why the hell is this only under ifdef x86_32

#

like is this not an issue on 64 bit somehow

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 2:05 PM

#

bruh its impossible to compile linux with O0

#

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/78248402/how-to-compile-the-linux-kernel-with-o0-for-more-detailed-debug

median crest Jun 13, 2025, 2:35 PM

#

Ub jumpscare

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 2:39 PM

#

it's not even that, the code is uncompilable

#

u get random errors and warnings

dense steppe Jun 13, 2025, 2:49 PM

#

fiery turtle https://stackoverflow.com/questions/78248402/how-to-compile-the-linux-kernel-wit...

so the thing is that Linux uses a lot of inline asm which works in some context and doesn't in others (e.g. movw %%ax, %0 : '=r'(foo)` when foo is a uint8_t). and the reason this works is that the faulty inline asm statements are optimized away because the compiler sees that they are unreachable (with -O0 it doesn't).

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 2:56 PM

#

dense steppe so the thing is that Linux uses a lot of inline asm which works in some context ...

Why does it have unreachable asm in the first place?

dense steppe Jun 13, 2025, 2:57 PM

#

switch(sizeof foo) {
case 1: asm("movb ...");
case 2: asm("movw ...");
case 4: asm("movl ...");
case 8: asm("movq ...");
};

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 2:57 PM

#

Hm

dense steppe Jun 13, 2025, 2:57 PM

#

Because Linux.

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 2:58 PM

#

Yeah there's even more shit not asm related

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 2:59 PM

#

dense steppe ```c switch(sizeof foo) { case 1: asm("movb ..."); case 2: asm("movw ..."); case...

not me not realizing this is bad because in zig the switch would happen at compile time and it'd work out fine

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 2:59 PM

#

that's crazy

dense steppe Jun 13, 2025, 3:00 PM

#

there is if constexpr

#

why is there no switch constexpr?

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 3:00 PM

#

can't you just put the switch in a constexpr function?

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 3:00 PM

#

fiery turtle the current imaginarium score is bigger than that, do u want me to update to thi...

idk, do you think a currently accurate score is more or less important than having a bigger score? entirely possible it's an optimization level difference though

dense steppe Jun 13, 2025, 3:01 PM

#

slim panther can't you just put the switch in a constexpr function?

then you can't goto a label in the calling function which is not constexpr

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 3:02 PM

#

see this shit is why i like zig comptime lol

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 3:02 PM

#

or any decent language for that matter

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 3:02 PM

#

yeah

#

zig comptime is just the one i know thatd handle this case

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 3:08 PM

#

frank canopy idk, do you think a currently accurate score is more or less important than havi...

Let's just assume you will catch up before the next update its fine lol

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 3:09 PM

#

lol

#

i also just realised that ive not been using ReleaseFast optimization for the number getting

#

so ill blame that and not actually check it so i can keep using ReleaseSafe for debugging

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 3:15 PM

#

Ye

left orbit Jun 13, 2025, 3:40 PM

#

ReleaseSafe is not actually that much slower

#

but the few extra debug checks probably still make a tiny difference

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 3:40 PM

#

yeah thats why im not actually checking the speed differene here and just blaming it without evidence 😉

#

also why i use releasesafe and not debug because dear lord debug is so slow

median crest Jun 13, 2025, 3:49 PM

#

fiery turtle it's not even that, the code is uncompilable

The fuck

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 4:29 PM

#

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/66520ebc2df3fe52eb4792f8101fac573b766baf

GitHub

x86, mm: Only direct map addresses that are marked as E820_RAM · t...

Currently direct mappings are created for [ 0 to max_low_pfn<<PAGE_SHIFT )
and [ 4GB to max_pfn<<PAGE_SHIFT ), which may include regions that are not
backed by actual DR...

#

Even though the kernel never
generates memory accesses in that region, since the page tables mark
them incorrectly as being WB, our (AMD) processor ends up causing a MCE
while doing some memory bookkeeping/optimizations around that area.

#

huh?

#

how do u even pinpoint it to that if you just get a random MCE

dense steppe Jun 13, 2025, 4:40 PM

#

test with WB page tables: generates MCE
test without them: doesn't generate MCE

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 4:40 PM

#

yeah but how like i wonder how they arrived at that initially

dense steppe Jun 13, 2025, 4:41 PM

#

by thinking really hard about it

#

ultrameme

median crest Jun 13, 2025, 4:47 PM

#

It came to them in a dream

dense steppe Jun 13, 2025, 4:49 PM

#

median crest It came to them in a dream

I have successfully fixed at least two bugs with this debugging method.

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 5:18 PM

#

same

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 5:18 PM

#

Ah yes

#

As you're falling asleep you're like hey maybe I should look into direct map generation

dusky glade Jun 13, 2025, 5:19 PM

#

dense steppe test with WB page tables: generates MCE test without them: doesn't generate MCE

mice?

#

like the animal

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 5:38 PM

#

@fiery turtle can you test this?

qemu-system-x86_64 \
    -M q35 \
    -cpu host \
    -display none \
    -debugcon stdio \
    -bios OVMF_x86_64.fd \
    -enable-kvm \
            -cdrom chronos-x86_64.iso
            -smp 4 -m 2G | grep 'avg'

📎 chronos-x86_64.iso 📎 OVMF_x86_64.fd

#

I wanna see how it does on your cpu

tired temple Jun 13, 2025, 5:42 PM

#

Why uploading ovmf? Think it would make it faster? It's the same 💩

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 5:49 PM

#

tired temple Why uploading ovmf? Think it would make it faster? It's the same 💩

he might not have the ovmf

#

duh

frank canopy Jun 13, 2025, 5:51 PM

#

i really need to get ovmf figured out tbh

#

and set up

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 6:30 PM

#

tired temple Why uploading ovmf? Think it would make it faster? It's the same 💩

its faster

#

without the ovmf its slower

tired temple Jun 13, 2025, 6:35 PM

#

trim frost without the ovmf its slower

😁 I mean, these fw files come with the qemu distribution on the testing machine. Which, given, it's completed several such tests, does have it. You don't need to upload your copy. On arm eg they managed to make 64MB. only if you want to distribute a vm with your OS "installed" and if your installation involves storing fw variables (BootX), then you should provide your fw. For the purpose of this testing, it doesn't seem necessary.

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 6:35 PM

#

trim frost <@353593948523986945> can you test this? ``` qemu-system-x86_64 \ -M q35 \ ...

6.2M

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 6:35 PM

#

wtf

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 6:35 PM

#

fiery turtle 6.2M

thanks

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 6:45 PM

#

@trim frost are you still using talc?

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 6:46 PM

#

slim panther <@630075378769199117> are you still using talc?

yes, haven't touched pretty much anything for like a month

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 6:46 PM

#

ah

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 6:46 PM

#

did you switch?

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 6:46 PM

#

i'm using my own freelist impl now

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 6:46 PM

#

how fast is it

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 6:47 PM

#

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 6:47 PM

#

slim panther

so just a bit slower

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 6:47 PM

#

depends

#

i wanna see what infy gets

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 6:48 PM

#

i wanna write my own allocator but im too lazy

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 6:53 PM

#

qemu-system-x86_64 -serial stdio -m 2G -drive if=pflash,unit=0,format=raw,file=ovmf-code-x86_64.fd,readonly=on -cpu host -accel kvm -machine q35 -cdrom menix.iso | grep 'avg'

📎 menix.iso 📎 ovmf-code-x86_64.fd

#

@fiery turtle

flat badge Jun 13, 2025, 6:53 PM

#

dense steppe ```c switch(sizeof foo) { case 1: asm("movb ..."); case 2: asm("movw ..."); case...

This is just C not being powerful enough

#

In C++ you could do it properly™️

fiery turtle Jun 13, 2025, 6:56 PM

#

slim panther <@353593948523986945>

5.4

slim panther Jun 13, 2025, 6:56 PM

#

neat

urban galleon Jun 13, 2025, 7:16 PM

#

dense steppe ```c switch(sizeof foo) { case 1: asm("movb ..."); case 2: asm("movw ..."); case...

you can do that with templates te s

hollow scaffold Jun 13, 2025, 7:22 PM

#

trim frost Jun 13, 2025, 7:23 PM

#

hollow scaffold

cpu?

hollow scaffold Jun 13, 2025, 7:23 PM

#

AMD Ryzen 5 2600

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:45 PM

#

https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v6.15/source/include/linux/pgtable.h#L289

#

im so confused

#

how does this make sure the range of pages all belong to the same bottom most table

#

it just does ptep++ unconditionally and it somehow works??

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 12:54 PM

#

 * Context: The caller holds the page table lock.  The pages all belong
 * to the same folio.  The PTEs are all in the same PMD.

hollow elm Jun 14, 2025, 12:54 PM

#

comment above says ```

Context: The caller holds the page table lock. The pages all belong
to the same folio. The PTEs are all in the same PMD.

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:55 PM

#

PMD is the next level table

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 12:55 PM

#

yeah

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:55 PM

#

it holds 512 pte_t tables

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 12:55 PM

#

and the PTEs are contiguous within the PMD

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:55 PM

#

nah u misunderstood it

#

pte_t is also a table

#

of 512 entries

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 12:56 PM

#

ah, Linux terminology being weird

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:56 PM

#

either the comment meant in the same PTE

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 12:56 PM

#

yeah

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:56 PM

#

dense steppe ah, Linux terminology being weird

yeah

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 12:56 PM

#

so my guess is that by "in the same PMD" they mean "in the same PMD entry"

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:56 PM

#

perhaps yeah

#

but looking at callsites i dont see anyone checking anything

hollow elm Jun 14, 2025, 12:57 PM

#

actually isn't ptep the pointer to an array of ptes you want to write?

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 12:57 PM

#

yes

#

precisely

hollow elm Jun 14, 2025, 12:57 PM

#

and pte is the actual pte to write to

#

then what's the issue?

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:57 PM

#

pte_t is the first pfn u want to set

#

ptep is the first entry in the page table

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 12:58 PM

#

fiery turtle but looking at callsites i dont see anyone checking anything

probably because multi-page folios originate from HugeTLB and that provides alignment guarantees or something

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:58 PM

#

hmm maybe

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 12:59 PM

#

hollow elm then what's the issue?

it batch sets the PTEs in the bottom most page table without making sure it doesnt OOB to a random phys page after

hollow elm Jun 14, 2025, 12:59 PM

#

fiery turtle it batch sets the PTEs in the bottom most page table without making sure it does...

i mean, isn't ptep a pointer to a continuous arrays of entries you want to write, and pte is a pointer to the table entry?

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 1:00 PM

#

pte is just an integer value to write

#

ptep is a pointer to continuous entries

#

but no one makes sure there's enough continuous entries

#

the pages could potentially belong to different PMD entries

#

maybe the idea is one folio is guaranteed to be contiguous in page tables

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 1:40 PM

#

yeah so basically i think folios can only be multi-page if they're from a huge page allocation

#

and huge page allocations have a different logic for pmd/pud

dusky glade Jun 14, 2025, 4:41 PM

#

dense steppe there is `if constexpr`

what ze hell is a constexpr

dire owl Jun 14, 2025, 4:42 PM

#

compile time evaluation

dense steppe Jun 14, 2025, 5:30 PM

#

dusky glade what ze hell is a constexpr

the question you should be asking is, what is a mutexpr?

dusky glade Jun 14, 2025, 7:06 PM

#

crazy

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:09 PM

#

I have a really cursed idea for ultra, im gonna use Kconfig, but ill have cmake call something to parse the output .config and then use that output to make a series of set() calls

#

so basically cmake-compatible Kconfig

#

Kconfig because its simple and has tons of frontends

hallow marten Jun 14, 2025, 11:10 PM

#

meson supports kconfig

#

switch to meson!

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:10 PM

#

too late now, sunk cost fallacy

#

ive invested too much time into cmake

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:11 PM

#

hallow marten meson supports kconfig

TIL

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:11 PM

#

but thats pretty cool yeah

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:11 PM

#

meson being based as always

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:11 PM

#

ikr

#

if id known that id probably use that from the get go

hallow marten Jun 14, 2025, 11:11 PM

#

kindred beacon TIL

keyval = import('keyval')

kconfig = configuration_data(keyval.load('.config'))

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:12 PM

#

cool

#

shouldn't be that hard to parse from cmake or a helper script but yeah

#

my main concern with meson is like

#

if i ever run into a missing feature i literally cant work around it

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:13 PM

#

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:13 PM

#

because theres no such thing as user functions etc

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:13 PM

#

you can do shit like custom targets et al

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:13 PM

#

yeah ig

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:13 PM

#

I do that for shader stuff for nvidia-open

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:14 PM

#

so u can call into a custom script still right

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:14 PM

#

I basically need to run them through a script, and two objcopy steps

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:14 PM

#

i see

#

btw any progress on nvidia stuff

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:14 PM

#

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:15 PM

#

almost thought that was mesa code

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:15 PM

#

nah I wrote that meme

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:15 PM

#

nice

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:15 PM

#

fiery turtle btw any progress on nvidia stuff

NVK on linux works fine afaict

#

unless you do some specific GPGPU compute stuff

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:16 PM

#

is managarm missing stubs basically?

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:16 PM

#

I haven't ported the syncobj or dmabuf stuff to managarm yet

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:16 PM

#

ah

#

after thats done we can see a 3d accelerated cube?

#

plsgod

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:16 PM

#

yeah that's the first thing I'll do

#

I'm testing with vkcube anyways

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:16 PM

#

letsgoo

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:17 PM

#

fiery turtle I have a really cursed idea for ultra, im gonna use Kconfig, but ill have cmake ...

i tried that once with cmake

#

do not

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:17 PM

#

why

#

lol

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:17 PM

#

dmabuf should be fairly easy, wiring up the DRM ioctls for nvidia drivers will be fucking annoying tho

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:17 PM

#

true

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:17 PM

#

fiery turtle why

incredibly aids to manage with cached vars and stuff

#

like overrides, defaults, etc

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:18 PM

#

yeah i can kinda see taht

#

since its annoying as is

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:18 PM

#

just use meson ™️

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:18 PM

#

no

#

just use the python build system

#

trl

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:19 PM

#

fiery turtle just use the python build system

aka meson

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:19 PM

#

meson is more like scratch

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:19 PM

#

just use zig build smh

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:19 PM

#

cargo

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:20 PM

#

hell nah

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:20 PM

#

i'm tempted to switch to meson with rust

#

because cargo is straight up ass

#

but crate management is mediocre

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:20 PM

#

just dont use crates

#

and go full nih

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:20 PM

#

real

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:20 PM

#

you need crates for nih

#

thonk

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:21 PM

#

fiery turtle and go full nih

i kinda did that with uacpi and spin

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:21 PM

#

I forgot that I'm using Rust in userspace

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:21 PM

#

i can never go back to anything else after using zig build and im a known cmake enjoyer lol

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:21 PM

#

tbh u kinda do enjoy cmake if u figure it out

#

but its a learning curve

#

trl

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:22 PM

#

yeah

#

cmake is pretty good

#

zig build is just too good to now use for me anymore

#

even has config header support tho idk if kconfig is one of the options

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:22 PM

#

https://github.com/menix-os/menix/blob/legacy/modules/CMakeLists.txt

GitHub

menix/modules/CMakeLists.txt at legacy · menix-os/menix

Modular 64-bit kernel written in Rust. Contribute to menix-os/menix development by creating an account on GitHub.

#

trl

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:23 PM

#

imo build systems that are literally turing complete and easy to abuse tend to become messy

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:23 PM

#

exactly

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:23 PM

#

like cmake is turing complete but

#

its hard to do meaningful stuff

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:23 PM

#

but stuff like cargo is just horribly unusable

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:23 PM

#

I need to fix the build system mess in pmOS

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:23 PM

#

tbh zig cc is a bigger deal to me than the zig build even though i really like zig build

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:23 PM

#

what is that

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

slim panther https://github.com/menix-os/menix/blob/legacy/modules/CMakeLists.txt

cmake for rust? 💀

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

duh

#

no this is the old C version

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

fiery turtle what is that

calls clang but handles all the cross-compilation nonsense for you automatically

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

ah lol

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

what's the point of zigbuild in a c project

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

fiery turtle like cmake is turing complete but

https://64.github.io/cmake-raytracer/ (this man is on this server mind you meme )

Ray Tracing in pure CMake

A simple ray tracer written in pure CMake

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

frank canopy calls clang but handles all the cross-compilation nonsense for you automatically

ah nice

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

slim panther what's the point of zigbuild in a c project

really good cross-compilation support

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

cc @lilac knoll

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

kindred beacon https://64.github.io/cmake-raytracer/ (this man is on this server mind you <:mem...

yeah ive seen that lmao

#

cool project

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:24 PM

#

frank canopy really good cross-compilation support

cross-compilation?

#

in a build system?

#

why would i care about that

dire owl Jun 14, 2025, 11:25 PM

#

fiery turtle meson is more like scratch

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:25 PM

#

meson and cmake can do that

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:25 PM

#

yes they can

#

not as easily in my experience

#

but they can

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:25 PM

#

how easy are we talking

#

because in meson you can literally just use the env stuff as a variable

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:26 PM

#

change one line or a cmdline arg

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:26 PM

#

I mean I can just point it to my cross file and I'm done?

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:26 PM

#

zig build -Dtarget=whatever

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:26 PM

#

sounds like a gigantic skill issue

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:26 PM

#

and cross files can handle more stuff that's necessary for cross-compile like exe_wrapper

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:26 PM

#

meson is so easy to cross compile that they even print the env info during setup

#

it's almost as if it was made to do this

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:27 PM

#

shrug

#

ive found zig build's cross-compilation support to be better than anything else ive tried but also meson didnt exist last time i used something else so the only comparison was cmake or full autoconf bs

#

or at least meson wasnt a thing anyone talked about or i ever saw anyone mention existing at the time

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:29 PM

#

dire owl Jun 14, 2025, 11:29 PM

#

lmfao

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:29 PM

#

💀

#

meson > cmake > autoconf

kindred beacon Jun 14, 2025, 11:30 PM

#

meson > cmake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> autoconf

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:30 PM

#

autoconf ill never understand lol

#

its gibberish

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:30 PM

#

autoconf is awful yeah lol

#

at least we can all def agree there

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:30 PM

#

@lofty dragon when meson

#

would be funny for 10.x

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:31 PM

#

u mean based and not funny

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:32 PM

#

maybe one of these days ill finally look into meson but meh

#

used cmake from 2012-2015ish and then didnt touch native code until like last year

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:33 PM

#

that's like saying you'll never buy a ryzen because amd made bulldozer once

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:33 PM

#

around when silk.net started using zig build for its native libs, because being able to do zig build -Dtarget=whatever with ten different target triples and have the defaults be sane enough for everything to just work

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:33 PM

#

silk.net 💀

#

horrors

#

i'm having flashbacks

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:34 PM

#

to which major version?

#

2.x is meh but has problems and 3.0 is wip to address a lot of the problems rn

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:34 PM

#

whatever was around for net 6

#

i think 2.x

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:35 PM

#

yeah 2.x works but def has issues

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:35 PM

#

slim panther would be funny for 10.x

i'd probably use meson for 10.x if i go for C again, but i have to see how hard it is to do what i need it to do

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:35 PM

#

Wait wdym go for C

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:35 PM

#

from what i can tell, everything you do now is possible to be done in meson

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:35 PM

#

fiery turtle Wait wdym go for C

see #polls

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:36 PM

#

lofty dragon i'd probably use meson for 10.x if i go for C again, but i have to see how hard ...

Why do you want to rewrite it?

#

What would you change

#

Ultra proto support trl

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:36 PM

#

tech debt moment

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:36 PM

#

nothing really, i just want to remove technical debt, the protocol wouldn't change

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:36 PM

#

id vote zig for that because zig is nice for osdev but its probably too niche for a big project like limine

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:36 PM

#

Which language did you want personally

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:36 PM

#

you're welcome to help out btw

#

if you want

#

may be a cool project to work on together from scratch

#

i could use your expertise

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:37 PM

#

collab i did not expect but i totally wanted

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:37 PM

#

We'll see but I'm kinda tired of getting side tracked, I just wanna focus on my kernel

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:37 PM

#

can we get ext* back

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:37 PM

#

no

#

i mean depends

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:37 PM

#

like

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:38 PM

#

fiery turtle Which language did you want personally

@lofty dragon

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:38 PM

#

you can make abstractions to make it much easier to impl and maintain

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:38 PM

#

fiery turtle <@563448614509215755>

as of rn i'm just thinking of sticking with C

#

not only is it leading in the poll

#

but also

#

tooling is best for C and C++

#

and i hate C++

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:38 PM

#

True

#

And rust would mean giant binary and giant stacks

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:38 PM

#

"giant stacks"

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:39 PM

#

yeah that's true as well

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:39 PM

#

Ada also uses gcc trl

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:39 PM

#

Ada would be funny

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:39 PM

#

Ada only has GCC support

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:39 PM

#

ada is hard to maintain imo

#

lots of boilerplate

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:39 PM

#

i'd also like to use a language that has first class support from more than 1 compiler only

#

which C and C++ fulfill

#

but again, i hate C++

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

yea that really narrows it down to c

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

That's basically only those

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

well there is D

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

https://tenor.com/view/kurt-angle-me-when-looking-stare-are-you-serious-gif-11132620111287096186

Tenor

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

That would be fitting given you're sponsored by the creator

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

The runtime seems insane

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

betterC needs no runtime

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:40 PM

#

no goto trl

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

fiery turtle That would be fitting given you're sponsored by the creator

that's V, not D

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

calm latch no goto <:trl:829316641191886888>

wait, no

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

Ah right

hollow elm Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

why even rewrite limine?

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

ignore that

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

~~D is an actual language~~

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

If I were to write it from scratch id give zig a try tbh

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

also 1 compiler

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

Just to learn it idk

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

someone explain to me the point of zig

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

fiery turtle If I were to write it from scratch id give zig a try tbh

YOOOO

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

slim panther someone explain to me the point of zig

Less annoying than rust and safe

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

Zig only has 1 compiler and the same tooling issues

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

only sane person in here

#

zig trooling is AWESOME

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:41 PM

#

unless there is a Zig C backend?

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:42 PM

#

fiery turtle Less annoying than rust and safe

safe in what manner

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:42 PM

#

yes there is a C backend but idk how user friendly it is

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:42 PM

#

it has defer

#

what else do you need

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:42 PM

#

no clue what that does

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:42 PM

#

i honestly couldn't care less about defer

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:42 PM

#

slim panther safe in what manner

Basically more modern features preventing you from doing stupid stuff

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:42 PM

#

goto is king

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:42 PM

#

hm

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:43 PM

#

lofty dragon goto is king

How much time do you expect this rewrite will take

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:43 PM

#

hollow elm why even rewrite limine?

for one it's an idea i still haven't committed to, but it's mainly to clean up the codebase from technical debt

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:43 PM

#

i would love to make a zig bootloader

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:43 PM

#

And is it definitely happening

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:43 PM

#

but not enough experience myself

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:44 PM

#

lofty dragon for one it's an idea i still haven't committed to, but it's mainly to clean up t...

technical debt or general ugliness

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:44 PM

#

Just do it LETSFUCKINGGOOOOOO

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:44 PM

#

fiery turtle How much time do you expect this rewrite will take

i have no idea

#

it may take 1 month, 1 year, 3 years or anything in between

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:44 PM

#

i replicated limine's decompressor yesterday using tinf

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:45 PM

#

Are you still working on vinix?

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:45 PM

#

no

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:45 PM

#

Damn

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:45 PM

#

well i'd be working on Vinix but i don't get paid (on time, or reliably)

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:45 PM

#

left orbit i replicated limine's decompressor yesterday using tinf

still need to cook up the boot sector, stage2 and build the entire image

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:46 PM

#

left orbit i would love to make a zig bootloader

yoooo

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:46 PM

#

lofty dragon well i'd be working on Vinix but i don't get paid (on time, or reliably)

So are you like completely done or just waiting for payment

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:46 PM

#

but as i said, not enough experience

#

writing real mode code makes me miserable

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:46 PM

#

left orbit but as i said, not enough experience

do it

#

vro

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:46 PM

#

left orbit + writing real mode code makes me miserable

That's a tiny part tho

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:46 PM

#

if god exists why did he give us bios

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:46 PM

#

fiery turtle So are you like completely done or just waiting for payment

i am never "completely done" about anything; i'll work on it if i want to, whenever i want to, but yeah

#

also i don't find kernel dev all that fun i'll be completely honest

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:47 PM

#

fiery turtle That's a tiny part tho

do it for me then

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:47 PM

#

Damn

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:47 PM

#

🙏

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:47 PM

#

i have been having way more fun playing with csmwrap than a lot of other things i've done lately

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:47 PM

#

left orbit do it for me then

U can just steal bios_call.asm from hyper ill allow it lmao

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:48 PM

#

lofty dragon i have been having way more fun playing with csmwrap than a lot of other things...

That's fair

calm latch Jun 14, 2025, 11:48 PM

#

real mode is not that bad?

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:48 PM

#

i know

#

just annoying

fiery turtle Jun 14, 2025, 11:48 PM

#

Ye

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:48 PM

#

and i would rather do nothing

#

than write real mode code

#

i just dont like it

#

like maybe at some point ill just force myself and do it

#

but until then it's the blocker, even if its easy

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:49 PM

#

lofty dragon also i don't find kernel dev all that fun i'll be completely honest

i should say that i don't find it fun, at the moment

#

i just go by phases

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:49 PM

#

but in the end i should end up with zimine trl

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:49 PM

#

that's a bad name

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:49 PM

#

i know

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:50 PM

#

left orbit but in the end i should end up with zimine <:trl:829316641191886888>

zine

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:50 PM

#

i codenamed it zloader

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:50 PM

#

deezig nutzig

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:50 PM

#

qloader reference???

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:50 PM

#

zloader3

#

write it in reverse instruction set

#

https://discord.com/channels/440442961147199490/1383345907143282708

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:52 PM

#

with all due respect

#

i did NOT need to see this

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:53 PM

#

trl

#

i had to see it

#

you have to see it too

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:53 PM

#

i hate summer

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:53 PM

#

whjat he fuck is that

dire owl Jun 14, 2025, 11:53 PM

#

I wish summer was edible

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:53 PM

#

bro it's a language for os dev

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:53 PM

#

PRN Loading kernel... >>
VAR kernel_loaded = 1

slim panther Jun 14, 2025, 11:53 PM

#

worse move semantics than c++

#

that's crazy

lofty dragon Jun 14, 2025, 11:53 PM

#

lmao

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:56 PM

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someday ill work on a zig bootloader tbh

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been feeling that itch for a while

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but limine exists and i havent felt the desire to figure out real mode stuff

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:57 PM

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sadly zig can't generate good 16 bit code so you have to actually write the boot sector in assembly

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it would be fun to actually build the boot sector from a .zig file

dire owl Jun 14, 2025, 11:58 PM

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16-bit assembly isn't that bad

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I love writing it 😋

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:58 PM

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ok local dos enjoyer

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:58 PM

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lol

dire owl Jun 14, 2025, 11:58 PM

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actually

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have you considered writing the bootloader in Forth

frank canopy Jun 14, 2025, 11:59 PM

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i wouldnt write the boot sector in 16-bit c either tbh, iirc most c compilers arent great at 16-bit stuff

left orbit Jun 14, 2025, 11:59 PM

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have you?

dire owl Jun 14, 2025, 11:59 PM

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I mean, I do plan on writing a bootloader

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with a small Forth

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and then writing most of the stuff in Forth

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such as protocol and file system support

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:00 AM

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left orbit sadly zig can't generate good 16 bit code so you have to actually write the boot...

how much 16-bit code is even in the menix ap trampoline

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there's like 2 instructions iirc

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:00 AM

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i like the part in that thread where that person is using an LLM as plain as it can possibly be seen, and you guys kept essentially arguing with the LLM, which kept spouting nonsense like LLMs do

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like

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idk if you guys were just fucking around knowingly

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:00 AM

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i reacted with chatgpt

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:00 AM

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yeah but like

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:00 AM

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i was just trying to get him to admit he's bullshitting

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:00 AM

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after MANY LLM messages

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:00 AM

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slim panther how much 16-bit code is even in the menix ap trampoline

yeah but u dont need to read from disk and all that shit

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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ah

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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bootloader needs to do more stuff

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not that much

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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idk how bios boot works

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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lofty dragon after MANY LLM messages

it was only two messages

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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ap trampoline just jumps to 32-bit code, enables some cpu features and jumps to kernel lol

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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or I'm completely braindead

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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you could see that he types like ass, broken grammar, no capitalisation, different wording, and then the LLM messages were the opposite of that

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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dire owl or I'm completely braindead

you are

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it was way more than 2 messages

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:01 AM

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three

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:02 AM

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more

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:02 AM

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three messages

frank canopy Jun 15, 2025, 12:02 AM

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there is one big downside to doing zig bootloader stuff, and thats that theres some bugs with uefi support that might be llvm issues actually we arent sure but you cant get stack traces on efi in zig

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:02 AM

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lofty dragon you could see that he types like ass, broken grammar, no capitalisation, differe...

that's how I noticed it

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:02 AM

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do you want me to actually count them, because i can count them

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:02 AM

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frank canopy there is one big downside to doing zig bootloader stuff, and thats that theres s...

32 bit codegen is also broken

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fastcall isn't actually fastcall

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on windows it's supposed to pass 2 regs in ecx, edx but it does all on stack

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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lofty dragon do you want me to actually count them, because i can count them

sure

frank canopy Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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left orbit 32 bit codegen is also broken

ok but i aint touching 32-bit, if im writing a zig bootloader im writing a long mode kernels only one and in that case go straight from real to long mode

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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left orbit 32 bit codegen is also broken

does vectorcall work tho

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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slim panther does vectorcall work tho

no

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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🔥

frank canopy Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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left orbit fastcall isn't actually fastcall

ill blame llvm here since zig uses llvm for that part

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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vectorcall changes how float args are passed

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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I count 7 now

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:03 AM

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frank canopy ill blame llvm here since zig uses llvm for that part

no it's zig

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parameters aren't marked with inreg

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:04 AM

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three in rapid succession

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:04 AM

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frank canopy ill blame llvm here since zig uses llvm for that part

take that back

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1366384847538487397/1376123845009735710/caption.gif

frank canopy Jun 15, 2025, 12:04 AM

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left orbit parameters aren't marked with inreg

ah ok in that case not an llvm issue for once

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:04 AM

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yeah

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and the fix is very simple

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ion the CallingConv enum

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just change x86_fastcall to use X86Regcall type

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or something like that

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i dont remember the actual type name

frank canopy Jun 15, 2025, 12:04 AM

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mhm

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:05 AM

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@dire owl #1383345907143282708 message
#1383345907143282708 message
#1383345907143282708 message
#1383345907143282708 message
#1383345907143282708 message
#1383345907143282708 message
#1383345907143282708 message

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7

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:05 AM

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dire owl I count 7 now

.

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:05 AM

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some of those are even just copied from the website he made

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:06 AM

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dire owl .

yeah sorry that i was actually counting them myself as you asked me to

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:06 AM

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lofty dragon yeah sorry that i was actually counting them myself as you asked me to

yeah, sorry abt that

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yeah

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maybe I'm actually stupid

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:06 AM

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and like

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i have started catching up to LLM-speak way more lately

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i used to not be able to, or not think about it

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now it sticks out like a sore thumb

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most of the time

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must be because i have actually tried to use LLMs

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to do stuff

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and failed most of the time

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:07 AM

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lofty dragon i used to not be able to, or not think about it

yeah, I didn't notice cuz I wasn't looking for it

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:08 AM

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i'm happy i do work that's so mentally fucked that no ai can understand it

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:08 AM

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I sometimes notice when grading homework

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which is annoying

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:09 AM

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just 0 points

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ez

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:09 AM

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I still need to read through all that LLM-generated bullshit

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yeah

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0 points if there's a smoking gun

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like it being a screenshot from ChatGPT where the input text bar is still visible

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 12:09 AM

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most of the time i asked info about shit i am working on to LLMs they just lie to me and invent stuff, so much so that i just don't bother asking anymore about anything but the most trivial shit that it copy pastes from some random stack overflow reply

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for those i only ask because Google sucks now

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they are a better search engine, but only for the simplest of things that have been asked a million times

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idk why or how korona, with all his smarts, can say that LLMs are useful for any actual programming

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:11 AM

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lofty dragon idk why or how korona, with all his smarts, can say that LLMs are useful for any...

I had a Professor (string theorist) who said that ChatGPT gave him some ideas for research

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:11 AM

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it may be useful if you absolutely do not rely on it and use it purely as an intern throwing ideas at you

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:11 AM

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and that he doesn't need as many bachelor students now thanks to ChatGPT

left orbit Jun 15, 2025, 12:12 AM

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but beyond that its useless

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harmful even

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:12 AM

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chatgpt is a virtual intern

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:12 AM

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yeah

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basically

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:12 AM

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also, never let an llm make a meaningful decision

dire owl Jun 15, 2025, 12:12 AM

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lofty dragon idk why or how korona, with all his smarts, can say that LLMs are useful for any...

but also, didn't Korona say he basically uses ChatGPT as a search engine?

surreal current Jun 15, 2025, 12:12 AM

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dire owl and that he doesn't need as many bachelor students now thanks to ChatGPT

Uh oh

slim panther Jun 15, 2025, 12:13 AM

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tbh google did something weird with their search engine because it fucking sucks now

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it's so much harder to find answers to complicated questions

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you only find really simple questions that are missing many keywords from the original source

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i'm finding myself putting some keywords in quotes more often than before

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just so they don't get naenaed

calm latch Jun 15, 2025, 12:21 AM

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slim panther tbh google did something weird with their search engine because it fucking sucks...

it was bad for a long time

hallow marten Jun 15, 2025, 12:44 AM

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slim panther tbh google did something weird with their search engine because it fucking sucks...

that's why so many people suffix "reddit" to their queries now

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Google has significantly gotten worse and providing less quality content and reddit is kind of a filter since upvotes and stuff

lofty dragon Jun 15, 2025, 1:06 AM

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google was unironically better 15 years ago than it is now

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not even close

surreal current Jun 15, 2025, 1:08 AM

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hallow marten Google has significantly gotten worse and providing less quality content and red...

reddit is slowly being lost to automatically generated, automatically posted ai content

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most of the "story" subreddits (r/relationships, r/amitheasshole, r/amioverreacting, etc) are completely overrun with ai-generated posts and nobody seems able to tell

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and like half of the informative comments on any post on any subreddit with 500+ upvotes near the top of the comment section, are just chatgpt output

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i dont even know what the motivation for this is

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dead giveaway is an emdash

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this one for example https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1lbf0pt/aita_for_refusing_to_babysit_my_sisters_newborn/

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most likely ai-generated

hallow marten Jun 15, 2025, 1:13 AM

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also if OP actually responds lol

surreal current Jun 15, 2025, 1:14 AM

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i suspect a lot of these are actually real stories and people are just so lazy they summarized it to chatgpt and asked it to make it a well-written, fleshed out reddit post (or they fed their post to chatgpt and asked it to make it nicer or something and it added a bunch of emdashes and other chatgpt-isms in the process)

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which they copypasted

hallow marten Jun 15, 2025, 1:14 AM

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yea that could be true too

calm latch Jun 15, 2025, 7:57 AM

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surreal current dead giveaway is an emdash

I've recently started casually using em dash out of spite

fiery turtle Jun 15, 2025, 12:06 PM

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Linux be like:

static pgprot_t protection_map[16] __ro_after_init = {
    [VM_NONE]                    = PAGE_NONE,
    [VM_READ]                    = PAGE_READONLY,
    [VM_WRITE]                   = PAGE_COPY,

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VM_WRITE, looks inside: readonly page

dusky glade Jun 15, 2025, 12:44 PM

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fiery turtle `VM_WRITE`, looks inside: readonly page

wha??? 😭 ?????

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why tf does linux do that

hallow marten Jun 15, 2025, 12:48 PM

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Copy on write

fiery turtle Jun 15, 2025, 12:50 PM

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well in this case its not for copy on write

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it's for lazy allocation

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the pf handler marks it as pte_mkwrite on a write fault

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or just maps a shared zero page if its a read fault

fiery turtle Jun 15, 2025, 12:52 PM

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dusky glade why tf does linux do that

basically its slightly stupid semantics but what it actually means is basically just a set of template flags for a page mapped with these flags

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and the writable flag is set in the fault handler only

hallow marten Jun 15, 2025, 12:54 PM

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fiery turtle or just maps a shared zero page if its a read fault

Is that even a useful optimization

fiery turtle Jun 15, 2025, 12:56 PM

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who knows

calm latch Jun 15, 2025, 12:58 PM

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how does linux do physical to virtual translations?

fiery turtle Jun 15, 2025, 12:59 PM

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page + page_offset

surreal current Jun 15, 2025, 1:01 PM

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hallow marten Is that even a useful optimization

Probably a rare, stupid program where that would actually help

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and not just cause degradation due to the extra COW fault when you inevitably write to that zero page

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iirc for a long time the COW fault would actually copy the page of zeroes into the new page????? rather than just noticing it's the special zero page and memseting which is faster

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and this didn't change until shockingly recently

#uACPI - a portable and easy-to-integrate ACPI implementation