Astral

[grand shadow]

lol

[wraith surge]

yeah i always had problems with whpx too

[grand shadow]

ok on windows it has much less latency

there is still some latency but I think its a me issue now

[viscid flame]

try vbox

[grand shadow]

though qemu whpx still seems to be adding around 183 ms of latency

I measure that between a enter on the cat /boot/astral > /dev/dsp0 and audio playing, and between a ^C on that and audio stopping

so its symmetric

[grand shadow]

It is pretty annoying that wine does not have a sndio backend

[neon crane]

do you have an audio mixing server ported or are you just piping audio directly from app to sound card

[grand shadow]

sndiod yes, but both work

For the r/osdev audio demo Im gonna record I should port a music player to showcase mixing

[mild sentinel]

You gotta play a shrek song to mog shrekOS

[bright knoll]

post it on r/osdev2

[sharp carbon]

i believe pulseaudio has an sndio backend

[grand shadow]

Yeah it is what I was originally thinking of doing for wine

wine -> pulseaudio -> sndio

[flint condor]

sndio?

not heard of this one

[grand shadow]

Its openbsd's sound stuff

[flint condor]

ah

[grand shadow]

ported mocp

[sage locust]

what the hell

since when do you have CDE?

in any case holy shit this is awesome

[quartz granite]

based

[grand shadow]

Its not cde proper, its nscde

[sage locust]

ah

well it still looks pretty

[grand shadow]

Yeahh

Ill likely have it be the default wm at some point in the future

I wanted to port original cde but its such an old and buggy codebase

[sage locust]

it sucks lol

the codebase i mean

[somber wraith]

And insecure

[opal lotus]

cde-rs

[wild marsh]

smh didn't go for the secret nightmare difficulty

[grand shadow]

True

[grand shadow]

I should write a blog post about usb + audio + nscde and then post on r/osdev to get mogged by shrekOS again

[quartz granite]

get mogged by 0 bytes

[mild sentinel]

Port VLC and play the shrek movie on astral?

[flint condor]

can it run doom

[mild sentinel]

Sure

Shut close your eyes

And imagine and thing really hard

[grand shadow]

thats a good idea actually

I think managarm had a non-working vlc port (which should now work because I implemented the missing functions?)

oh hell naw thats a lot of librarie

s

[mild sentinel]

Maybe MPV player is easier

[spare prairie]

Get ffmpeg first since iirc mpv depends on that

[worthy mica]

theres so much trash in r/osdev ngl

[grand shadow]

After cleanip audio stuff and solving a few todos I think it would be time to continue the self hosting work?

[grand shadow]

I need to finish up the memory locking for userspace dma

I could also maybe work on sysctl for things like ps

Or port webkitgtk

[quartz granite]

do it

[fast gorge]

Astral lowkey inspired me to the point i got here ❤️

[grand shadow]

probably going to be the new official screenshot of astral for github/website

shows: sound, networking, wine, cool games, DE with theming, etc.

[viscid flame]

how much you have fps in glxgears

[grand shadow]

idk I opened it using nscde run double click thing

[viscid flame]

k

[fierce forge]

What about Jinx though?

[grand shadow]

I don't need jinx to self host

I can just build the packages myself a la linux from scratch

[fierce forge]

Oh

Jinx not requiring Linux would have been nice though

[viscid flame]

astral from scratch

[elfin turtle]

astral unshare when

[deft oak]

notepad++ on wine is so based...

[grand shadow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/comments/1tt7phu/audio_usb_and_nscde_on_astral/

pls give upvote

https://astral-os.org/posts/2026/05/31/audio_usb_nscde.html

[willow rapids]

why minecraft struggle so bad

is it audio having a lot of cpu overhead?

[grand shadow]

no its 1 core cpu rendering behind wsl and qemu

on a laptop cpu

[opal lotus]

give it more cores

[grand shadow]

I know ur rich give me like an i9-14900k

[opal lotus]

gell nah

[fleet osprey]

uhhhhhh

I can donate a Wii

very fast machine

trust

[wraith surge]

i can give you access to my pc to test if you want XD

[fleet osprey]

729MHz PowerPC Broadway (750CL), 88MB of (non-contiguous) RAM, best storage medium is an SD Card

trust

best Astral dev machine

[willow rapids]

very fast™

it took mine 3.5h to format a 32gb sd card as ext3

[fleet osprey]

ok it's not that bad

either something was wrong with your SD or your install

[willow rapids]

maybe it was the xwhiite installer being slow or something

[fleet osprey]

oh yeah

[willow rapids]

but other than that it ran xfce fine

[fleet osprey]

that shit runs under IOS

[willow rapids]

aah

i forgot

[fleet osprey]

it's not actually all that slow, it just sucks at anything graphical mainly

modern Xorg, GTK/Qt, and especially Mesa, are just too shit these days

[willow rapids]

i managed to watch 240p mpeg2 video in vlc actually fine

or was it 480p

i don't remember

[fleet osprey]

yeah, you wouldn't be able to do that on any modern distro sadly

[willow rapids]

yeah

i think the wii is 480p but iirc xfce was reporting itself running at 320x240 for some reason

[fleet osprey]

I couldn't even get mplayer direct on the fb to play MPEG1 well

[willow rapids]

rip

[fleet osprey]

480i/480p depending on your cables

and old Linux used to have massive issues with progressive scan

so it was probably 480i

[willow rapids]

yeah since composite

component is the same story

[fleet osprey]

modern Linux can actually do 480p reliably, if you set it up to do so manually (it can't autodetect), but yeah back in the old days it was super jank and barely ever worked

[willow rapids]

based but why /bin/sh in xterm

you shall make it spawn bash instead and get fancy prompt

[grand shadow]

its what xterm is doing by default I guess

[willow rapids]

ye

[grand shadow]

I probably should look into it

[somber wraith]

You probably don't set $SHELL anywhere

I think it reads that. It might check the passwd file though

[grand shadow]

passwd file has /usr/bin/bash so it is probably $SHELL

[grand shadow]

https://github.com/BSDKaffee/gstreamer1-plugins-sndio

god bless

[grand shadow]

yay 500 stars

[robust bobcat]

congrats

[viscid flame]

my vote was 66

[native pollen]

Get this instead

https://github.com/yazaldefilimone/ffmpreg

[robust geyser]

rust

lol

[hearty fulcrum]

[bronze nexus]

lol

legendary april fools' post

[upper dragon]

https://github.com/yazaldefilimone/ffmpreg/issues/20 lol

[grand shadow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1143454725879123978/1462949671881146398/1768864783236.gif

Ive been trying to port webkitgtk since monday and it starts up but gets stuck loading a webpage

I probably will try just one more day to get it to work though, I dont feel like wasting time chasing annoying bugs like this

I also want to work on sysctl and on an unrelated project (an implementation of the brickmap paper)

[grand shadow]

I wonder if someone has gotten their OS to print something 💀

as in, with a printer

honestly

it doesn't seem that difficult?

theres a USB class for it

and you can also do it over the network

[mild sentinel]

I think the difficulty is in the many different printers having quirks but iirc the userspace side handles those? And older printers

But modern printers should hopefully just work

[grand shadow]

if I had access to an usb printer I would do it just for the shits and giggles

please someone add a usb-printer class to qemu that outputs a pdf

💀

theres also the network thing but like

thtas probably more ocmplicated

[mild sentinel]

If you have a generic cups server infront of the printer that could workout fine?

[grand shadow]

yeah but that sounds booooring

I want to talk to the printer directly

but tbh from what I can see driving a usb printer is also kind of boring

you just shove postcript into an bulk OUT endpoint

[mild sentinel]

Damn

Well might aswell start trying some network bullshit and seeing how bad it goes to start with

[grand shadow]

rahhhh

this is EXTREMELY buggy

[viscid flame]

you ported gtk ??

[wild marsh]

there is no single printer driver though, but if you have cups and libusb it should be possible

[marsh sparrow]

well, cups + an IPP based printer should just work

as there's no hardware driver involved, it's just TCP

[wild marsh]

true

[grand shadow]

if a poll ever timed out a thread would be bound to a specific cpu forever

🫩

[grand shadow]

yeah

[grand shadow]

implementing SOCK_SEQPACKET properly

ideally I should rewrite my entire localsocket thing to be packet based with stream and connections on top of that but thats something for another da

y

[grand shadow]

Pushed some stuff

Now webkitgtk is upstream

It worksish

Some stuff is defo broken

But it was able to load simpler webpages

And doesnt completely crash the sydtem

[grand shadow]

working on bullshit

No names yet, probably something for tomorrow

[hearty fulcrum]

proper permissions?

[marsh sparrow]

I think astral already has proper permissions (?)

[mild sentinel]

maybe this is a better /proc interface for htop like things?

[grand shadow]

I already have that

[grand shadow]

Yes, sysctl()

[mild sentinel]

🔥

[grand shadow]

yay

[opal lotus]

what is this

show code

[grand shadow]

sysctl bro

[opal lotus]

W

real bsd sysctl or astral fake

[grand shadow]

inspired™ by real bsd sysctl but using my commands and stuff

so it has the same function signature

and well the KERN_PROC one is just straight up ripped from it

with the openbsd semantics of 6 length mib

CTL_KERN
KERN_PROC
KERN_PROC_ALL
0
sizeof(sysctl_proc_info_t)
0

[grand shadow]

        int mib[6] = {
                SYS_CTL_KERN,
                SYS_CTL_KERN_PROC,
                SYS_CTL_KERN_PROC_ALL,
                0,
                sizeof(sysctl_proc_info_t),
                0
        };

        size_t size;
        if (sysctl(mib, 6, NULL, &size, NULL, 0)) {
                perror("sysctl");
                return EXIT_FAILURE;
        }

        printf("table size: %lu bytes\n", size);

        sysctl_proc_info_t procs[size / sizeof(sysctl_proc_info_t)];
        if (sysctl(mib, 6, procs, &size, NULL, 0)) {
                perror("sysctl");
                return EXIT_FAILURE;
        }

        size_t proc_count = size / sizeof(sysctl_proc_info_t);
        printf("got %lu procs:\n", proc_count);
        for (size_t i = 0; i < proc_count; ++i) {
                printf("pid %d: '%s' user %d (effective %d set %d) group %d (effective %d set %d) with %lu threads\n",
                        procs[i].pid,
                        procs[i].name,
                        procs[i].uid,
                        procs[i].euid,
                        procs[i].suid,
                        procs[i].gid,
                        procs[i].egid,
                        procs[i].sgid,
                        procs[i].thread_count
                );
        }

not really api/abi compatible with bsd but I am not trying to be

it just is a nicer interface to use than pr*c

yes please give me text parsing in every application that wants to query a specific thing

[opal lotus]

trvth

[grand shadow]

added some more information to it,

I think my cpu usage info is a bit borked

a lot of that is 0-stubbed though

but I think this should be enough data for a posix ps implementation

still missing argv but thats going to be another sysctl

why is bash not waitpiding this bruh

and why is init not waitpiding

ughshghdhghgshdgjksdkgsdgls

SIGCHLD is broken award?

[fleet osprey]

htop port when

[grand shadow]

soon actually probably

either htop or btop

[fleet osprey]

based

[somber wraith]

it probably Just Works™ with /proc-less functionality

[grand shadow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1143454725879123978/1462949671881146398/1768864783236.gif

Ive been quite busy lately (greg tech new horizo

[mild sentinel]

When you get back to astral you gotta make gtnh run well so you can gregmaxx

[grand shadow]

fun stuff

idk why but it is super slow when running on xterm

I guess I need to profile that

Terminate and Kill does seem to work tho

[grand shadow]

theres a process refcounting issue related to job control

[prime mulch]

mathewnd be like: theres a process refcounting issue related to job control

[grand shadow]

so true

[prime mulch]

what is the issue

or symptoms

[grand shadow]

I am leaking a refcount on the process group leader when its process group becomes the foreground for the session which then causes it to linger around forever in the pid table and appear as spooky ghosts in the process list

👻

or at least I think that is what is happening

[prime mulch]

on light mode the ghosts body barely appears and i thought it was like 3 abstract ovals like maybe avocados

[grand shadow]

screenshot I wanna see that

[prime mulch]

oh sorry my macbook is bleeding

[grand shadow]

give it a bandage bro grrrr

[grand shadow]

damn its just shapes

[grand shadow]

I had a dream that the biggest slow down in astral right now is the page cache

[willow rapids]

me with no page cache:

[analog berry]

me with no page:

[bright knoll]

me with no:

[viscid flame]

me with:

[fast gorge]

me:

[earnest willow]

:

[viscid flame]

⠀

[winged basin]

It was sent from God

He has instructed you to look for optimising opportunities there

[proper meteor]

that could be the case in maestro

but it's probably actually paging instead (I have O(n^2) stuff in some places)

[opal lotus]

me with page cache but slow:

[flint condor]

I could

just connect via TCP to port 9100, and send hp printer commands. or at the least plain ASCII.

I mean my printer is networked

but it's also off, and I doubt I'll ever use it again. printers suck

but yeah that's the easiest approach, send ASCII to port 9100

[fierce forge]

I don't understand how work sets work

[marsh sparrow]

hm?

[marsh sparrow]

what's the relation to astral?

[fierce forge]

Slow page cache?

[marsh sparrow]

working sets are not tightly coupled to page caches

[grand shadow]

Decided to copy marvin and astral can talk on irc on real hw

[fleet osprey]

ARM port when

Claude pls make ARM port make no mistakes 🙏

[upper dragon]

Claude pls implement every major OS compatibility API (even Android) make no mistake

[prime mulch]

Claude pls pee... make a lot of mistakes!!!!

[fleet osprey]

if I knew anything about ARM I'd do an ARM port

if Astral had working 32-bit support and was free of endianness assumptions I'd be able to do a PowerPC port

(but only to the GameCube/Wii/Wii U )

so uhhh

I guess i386 port when

that'd give me half the battle there

plus you already support x86_64

[upper dragon]

WiiStral running Metroid Prime at 120fps when?

[fleet osprey]

lol no

GX is cursed

would not have acceleration

plus Astral has no infra for GPU accel

not even on PC

[fierce forge]

What are the typical endianness assumptions anyway?

[grand shadow]

I assume that I am using a real architecture (little endian) made in the last 20 years

[fleet osprey]

which is cringe

but I could probably fix that

[blazing atlas]

6502 port when

[willow rapids]

4004 port when

[spare sky]

4004 is not von Neumann

[opal lotus]

zinnia is free of endianness assumptions

but no 32 bit

or well, it would probably work

but zinnia assumes hhdm + pfndb

i don't think that will work in 32 bit

[bronze nexus]

It will

Just not with a lot of RAM

[opal lotus]

lol

[bronze nexus]

IMO no 32-bit system has any business having more than at most 512MiB

[opal lotus]

yeah

[bronze nexus]

And even that is pushing it

[opal lotus]

i wanted to add arm support to my shit anyways

[fleet osprey]

the Wii U has 2GB

[opal lotus]

shared memory even

[bronze nexus]

x86 had up to 16GiB

With PAE

[fleet osprey]

pretty sure Wii U devkits had 3GB

[willow rapids]

i thought it was 64gb with pae?

[fleet osprey]

4GB in hardware but the memory controller couldn't do more than 3

[bronze nexus]

might be, either way the number is too high

[opal lotus]

insane to think how bad the wii u was

[fleet osprey]

it's actually pretty decent

[opal lotus]

tfw dolphin 2 2

[fleet osprey]

gets a lot of undeserved hate

it's about as powerful as the 360

and 4x the RAM

[bronze nexus]

HW manufacturers put a 64-bit CPU in something that counts RAM in GB challenge (impossible)

[opal lotus]

that's not good for a console that came out 7 years later

[fleet osprey]

the problem is that they wanted to reuse the PowerPC 750 again

because the had IBM put some custom extensions in it for like $1B back in 2001

and they wanted to milk it for a 3rd time

[bronze nexus]

And so they made the kernel devs deal with their BS

[opal lotus]

i want to try running on a ps4

[bronze nexus]

Also, how does userspace use 3GB on a system where you only expect one big RAM consumer at once

[fleet osprey]

well it was never intended to run custom OSes anyways

[opal lotus]

iirc there is no userspace

[bronze nexus]

...

bruh

[opal lotus]

there is no os

[fleet osprey]

this is not true

this was true on the GameCube and Wii

but not on the Wii U

they made a real multitasking always-resident OS kernel

[opal lotus]

bruh

[fleet osprey]

and apps run in userspace

also SMP-aware

anyways I think the solution is they didn't

CafeOS is terrible and it uses like 1GB of RAM just for the system

on retail apps only got like 1GB

[bronze nexus]

... how

[fleet osprey]

and on devkits I assume they must've gotten 2GB or less

[fleet osprey]

(iirc)

(could be wrong on the exact amount, but I know it uses a lot)

[neon crane]

i know an OS which can run on 32-bit

its not very complete but it can run applications and shi

[sharp carbon]

PAE supports up to 4 PiB actually, just like x86_64

all limits lower than that are imposed by software design

[fierce forge]

It's up to 52 bits

[mild sentinel]

I ran a 32bit VM with like 20gb ram and 14 cores because I wanted to compile something and not deal with setting up the right toolchain for the target machine lol

Worked perfectly fine

[native pollen]

claude pls WHAT 😳

[grand shadow]

dead propject

I need to make audiop work on realharwdware

I have never tried it properly and I kinda want to get the arcade working already

even if just out of a usb stick

[prime mulch]

You are named Mathew not dead

[prime mulch]

Therefore can't true

[grand shadow]

are you a hyena in the sky?

[grand shadow]

I also need to finish implementing locking pages for dma

[grand shadow]

Ive been thinking of changing the branding of astral

[prime juniper]

add more EFN branding

trust

[grand shadow]

From generic ringed planet to the southern cross or smth like this

[grand shadow]

TRUE

https://tenor.com/view/music-party-dancing-rock-rave-gif-5594136299299823076

[prime juniper]

startup sound? efn.mp3

do it

[analog berry]

make it something gtnh themed

[grand shadow]

rc-update add efnplay default

[grand shadow]

Nitrobenzene logo

[analog berry]

yess

[native pollen]

idk why but this makes me want to make a Breaking Bad themed OS

BlueCrystal OS

[viscid flame]

breaking os

[mild sentinel]

Make sure it's 16bit and just prints an animation of Walter white falling on the floor

https://tenor.com/view/among-us-walter-white-your-mom-gif-26484651

1000000 reddit upvotes

[native pollen]

I’m gonna mog Astral with this one 🔥

[hearty stratus]

1- Ask Claude to rewrite it in Rust
2- Put AI somehow in your OS
This will get you 20k stars on GitHub in no time

[grand shadow]

You're right to push back on that—

Yesterday I did some bug fixes

[viscid flame]

what's this browser

[grand shadow]

minibrowser

[mild sentinel]

new video. astral watching astral running minecraft on youtube

[grand shadow]

Playback no worky yet sadly

[mild sentinel]

damn

[willow rapids]

now that is real gaming right there

[grand shadow]

[quartz granite]

why not show the qr code so some rando logs in for you

[grand shadow]

true

login didn't work and I think its because of missing eventfd

it got stuck in the captcha

I might try again before fucking off to implement eventfd

(yes I raise the white flag I am going to implement linux brain damage)

[willow rapids]

port a better browser

[quartz granite]

now serchat

[willow rapids]

that doesnt use eventfd

[grand shadow]

well captchas are broken

but qr code logi9n

HOLY FUCK

[quartz granite]

told u about qr codes

[quartz granite]

chop chop furry

[grand shadow]

damn I tried to join osdev from astral and it gave me another captcha keep yourself safe discord

lemme join it on my phone and try again

[quartz granite]

ghosting smh

[grand shadow]

but yeah I need to implement this eventfd bullshit

[mild sentinel]

eventfd iirc is pretty easy and a very nice thing to use imo

[grand shadow]

cmonnn

[mild sentinel]

Can't you bypass that by giving the account any role or approving the member or whatever bullshit?

[static beacon]

hey true that works, hi from astral

[mild sentinel]

Basedtral

[grand shadow]

wonder if file uplaod works

let me take a screenshot inside astral and try

opening the file picker completely fucking locks webkti up

💀

[mild sentinel]

Details details

Just open astral running discord and show an image of Shrek

Or even better if you do get it to work

Upload to reddit a picture of you making the post on astral

[grand shadow]

I forgot my serchat password 😭

[quartz granite]

did u register with real email

[grand shadow]

yeah

[quartz granite]

if so you can reset it

[grand shadow]

I'm resetting it rn

[quartz granite]

nice nice

do u have VLC?

[grand shadow]

nope

[quartz granite]

vlc port when

so you can play shrek movie

[mild sentinel]

Well

If you make YouTube work

You can make it play though that

Or WAIT

WAIT HOLD ON

entire shrek movie

in one gif

[grand shadow]

@quartz granite I try to log in but it just sends me back to the login screen for some reaason

same pass and email work in browser

[quartz granite]

:^(

If u transfer astral iso I'd be able to debug this

[quartz granite]

is filesystem readonly?

[grand shadow]

that would be like 10 gb

[grand shadow]

I would hope not

[quartz granite]

ph hell naw

[grand shadow]

I do see an eventfdcreate sysdep attempt in the log so maybe its that bullshit again

I need to do eventfd™

[grand shadow]

did it work from mammogram/zinnia

[quartz granite]

i have no idea, didn't run serchat there

do you perchance have... fcntl(F_SETLK)?

[grand shadow]

nope

stubbed with error return

[quartz granite]

there you go

[grand shadow]

[quartz granite]

what if you return 0 for F_SETLK and F_SETLKW

[grand shadow]

lemme see

huh nvm I do already stub it as 0

[quartz granite]

oop

[quartz granite]

and F_GETLK?

it could also be flock. Indexed db is sqlite in the end for webkitgtk iirc

gotta test it

[grand shadow]

oh right I do not have F_GETLK stubbed

I do have flock implemented

I'll try with F_GETLK

yoo?

it doesn't seem to instantly send me back

but its still thinking at the login screen

ah nvm it sent me back

[quartz granite]

faaah

closer to the success

[grand shadow]

lmao bruh

[quartz granite]

give me the logs

[grand shadow]

WAIT

I tried again

YOO

ahh fuck it worked for a split second the nsent me back to the login screen

[quartz granite]

wtf

😭

[grand shadow]

tried again

seems to not be booting me back

[quartz granite]

absolutely beautiful

you can change theme to fit astral more

[grand shadow]

lmao I sent lukflug a message and it booted me back to the login screen

[quartz granite]

alt+4 to change to next theme

[quartz granite]

lukflug of logging out

[grand shadow]

ough I think searchat locked up

at least the typing

@quartz granite

ok I think its the eventfd meme

I need to implement this shiii

[quartz granite]

implement eventfd

It can't be that hard

[grand shadow]

yeah its super simple

[grand shadow]

I also have a very old promise someone made me that I need to fullfil now

I need to:
compile i686-elf-gcc in astral
follow osdev barebones
post in #osdev-misc-0 asking how to do paging
all in astral

[grand shadow]

eventfd should be implemented

haven't tested it yet but lgtm

220 loc

[static beacon]

ok so time to figure out if uploading files works now

[grand shadow]

lmao the picker actually opens now but webkit is not enjoying this

[static beacon]

ok so from looking at the logs, I think uloading is killing the network process

[grand shadow]

lmfaooo backtrace is from fucking >>dns<<

its always dns

processing a RECORD_A response

I would check if a PR was already merged that fixed something like this if github worked

zero 9s uptime award

[viscid flame]

what uses eventfd

if its used by glib then it should fallback to pipe

[grand shadow]

One specific thing inside webkit

[static beacon]

yay it works

it really was that the issue

ITS ALWAYS <<DNS>>

think thats enough for today, going to upstream this bullshit and go sleep

pretty cool that astral can run discord for real now

have the astral xorg log as a treat

also this is crazy stable damn

at least once its running ?meme?

:meme"*

grrr

[somber wraith]

is this a mathew alt 💀

[grand shadow]

yeah

I don't want to risk my main running discord on astral

cuz like what if webkit does something fucked up and spams discord with requests and nukes the account

[viscid flame]

its required by sqlite iirc

[tawny oak]

very impressive progress

[neon crane]

what browser even is this

WebKitGTK?

im surprised it appears to work

[analog berry]

crazy

[prime juniper]

The WebKitGTK MiniBrowser yes

It’s surprisingly capable

But then one should realize that everything you can do in terms of browsing with epiphany (GNOME Web), one can do with the MiniBrowser. Same engine

[willow rapids]

based af

[grand shadow]

With discord now working, do I do the funny™ or do I try to make video playback work

[mild sentinel]

the funni™

[grand shadow]

to do the funny I need to port grub (don't ask

[mild sentinel]

port limine? it should support MB1

or was that the dont ask

[grand shadow]

hm there is some truth to that I could just use the already-ported limine

[willow rapids]

do it

[neon crane]

what for

sounds like it has nothing to do wth video playback

[mild sentinel]

This is about the other funny meme

Asking for help on r/osdev after following the barebones tutorial

All using astral

[willow rapids]

bare bones ii

[grand shadow]

downloaded: binutils and gcc source
compiled and installed: i686-elf binutils
compiling gcc now

[mild sentinel]

you should have recorded the entire thing to post on youtube to show others

and hide the QEMU window

You have to go full into the bit for the bait

[grand shadow]

I would unironically run out of disk space

[mild sentinel]

Want me to record it for you over discord video stream later

Or at least do it but only the important parts or whatever

[grand shadow]

you'd record probably like 5 hours of it compiling gcc

[mild sentinel]

😭

Maybe then just record when you type commands in or whatever and edit it together

[elfin turtle]

record it in 16k

[mild sentinel]

Or or

380p

Unregistered hypercam 2

[elfin turtle]

record it on imax film

[grand shadow]

apparently some steps of gcc compilation (heavier files like ins-emit-*.cc) cause astral to lag pretty badly

I need to profile that later

[willow rapids]

make a youtube stream

[hearty stratus]

couldn't find it, can you send the link for it?

anyway cool progress

[hearty fulcrum]

webkitgtk minibrowser

[grand shadow]

it comes with webkitgtk if you enable it in the builçd

[willow rapids]

builçd

kerneç

[grand shadow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1477747168180699284/1510662366403100732/bBc-a2S0W0mJ5E9QGX1nafBGznGNlesfvPkRNxaxhXM.gif

[willow rapids]

embed fail!!

nvm?

[mild sentinel]

prolly a large gif

[grand shadow]

?

me when unicode?

what the fuck is this lmfao

[willow rapids]

lmfao what

[grand shadow]

lmao

[willow rapids]

what is with the kernel tty showing in the bottom left corner

[gritty shore]

You should port urxvt

[somber wraith]

xterm should Just Work™ with unicode? at least ime

let me check my xresources yeah I don't see anything in there which would change utf8 handling

[gritty shore]

urxvt is better anyway

[grand shadow]

anyhow, gcc compiled

libgcc and then install

[viscid flame]

literally unusable

[sharp carbon]

that looks more like debugcon/serial output in the host terminal outside the qemu window

[willow rapids]

i mean this

[grand shadow]

installing gcc now

[sharp carbon]

ohh

[willow rapids]

gcc pass complete

[grand shadow]

I pick the trevor project, BTW :)

[lean kettle]

i thought you forgot

[earnest willow]

now you're legally obligated

[grand shadow]

rededit slso works

do I do it

[hearty fulcrum]

yes

[analog berry]

Yes

[grand shadow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/comments/1u9hjhc/how_do_i_do_paging/

[analog berry]

Lol

[bright knoll]

woaw... based based based

[mild sentinel]

Nobody in the comments gets it either

😭

[tall bluff]

This is so funny 🤣

How nobody is noticing at least the nonstandard wm is beyond me

[elfin turtle]

buddy

my comment is very serious

I got the message of Matthew beging for help and provided a useful guide!

[neon crane]

that just looks like NsCDE

[willow rapids]

because it is

[tall bluff]

Knowing Reddit I'd expect someone to materialize saying how butt ugly it is and insulting your intelligence at the bare minimum tho

[mild sentinel]

The urge to comment "when will people realize"

[analog berry]

https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/s/xCVJalBr0E

Did you actually reach that by starting with a kernel shell??? That was it all along?

[grand shadow]

kernel shell is the trve osdev way

[analog berry]

@grand shadow get to work https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/comments/1u9hjhc/comment/osgnb04/

First, you need to put your processor into "long mode". That's a whole discussion in itself. And to do that, you have to set up, as a I recall, the GDT "master table" that paging will use.

Your OS must manaage the GDT and all of its LDTs for each thread.

The OS must catch the paging fault traps and do the swap....

[fierce forge]

[quartz granite]

wow

[fierce forge]

I'm gonna downvote everyone

[quartz granite]

no u???

i was first

i only liked mishakov and marvins

[prime mulch]

I should make a bait post

[mild sentinel]

downvote this person more

for the memes

[prime mulch]

Not even for the memes but because they deserve it

[mild sentinel]

Tureeee

You gotta be a real reddit loser to both care about downvotes

And then reply asking about it

You are just asking for it

[mild sentinel]

https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/s/6wTHlYdJWx

😭

[river lava]

The comments are not only not good they are decidedly unhelpful. But OP obviously doesn’t know how to use Google either. Le sigh.

Talking about reddit btw

[mild sentinel]

You do know @grand shadow made the post right

And that the entire post is a shitpost

[river lava]

Was it a joke? He knows paging obviously.

[mild sentinel]

To make fun of the low effort content on the subreddit

[mild sentinel]

He made an OS inside his OS following the shitty wiki tutorial

And posted it on reddit

From within his OS

[river lava]

Ahhh. Got it. Sorry just got off work. I’m not only behind but dense too. My bad.

[mild sentinel]

It's fine

[prime mulch]

This is all of us

[river lava]

That’s f*cking hilarious btw.

[mild sentinel]

You can say fuck

[river lava]

Wasn’t sure. I run hot & cold on it.

Fuck!

Ok. Got that out of the way. 🙃

[quartz granite]

phonk language

[hearty stratus]

Did you port QEMU? It would be cool af is you run your OS in your OS

[grand shadow]

I did and that has been done, one sec

[grand shadow]

super old pic but yeah

[west reef]

This loooks so fricking cool, I literally just started the server and want to learn OSDEV from scratch . I know C but I will learn more + basic aaaembly

keep ul the good work

[cyan junco]

Awsome

[pure thunder]

oh yes it always happens to me when I compile my code using the oòeiossoço compiler and the flag -aeîï-òôôé

[native pollen]

out of curiosity why did the quality of hobby OSes increase MASSIVELY in the last 10 years?

10 years ago having a simple userland was seen as a massive achivement

now we see crazy shit like this regularly

[grand shadow]

Idk I am relatively new to all this

I only truly got into osdev in what 2021/2022?

[gritty shore]

i think the features have increased in the last three years but that's because of AI

there were always projects like astral tho

[native pollen]

yes, but the number has grown a lot

I remember Sortix back then

[gritty shore]

yeah that's AI

it's no coincidence that when LLMs got good suddenly everyone and their mother ran xorg

[native pollen]

I'm talking about non-AI projects, yes with AI there's a new desktop environment OS like every week but that's not what I'm talking about

[gritty shore]

#showing-off message

[native pollen]

yeah like I said I know that but I'm talking about specifically non-vibe-coded systems here

Back then we had Sortix, Toaru and a few more

Now we have Managarm, Mintia, Astral, ...

[grand shadow]

If its any consolation astral was running xorg far before llms were even viable for programming

[native pollen]

I mean I'm personally not demotivated by vibe coded OSes

Like it both doesn't feel like an achievement to be and doesn't feel comparable to a DIY OS as it's written by an overpowered tool, so just like how Windows or Linux doesn't demotivate me a vibe coded OS doesn't either

I am somewhat demotivated by the insane amount of good non-vibe-coded OSes though, like I said back then we only had Sortix, Toaru and maybe a few more
Now there are so many

[grand shadow]

Sortix is still alive, sortie is pretty chill

I guess its just a matter of it becoming more accessible over the years + llms

[native pollen]

I mean I'm specifically talking about non-vibe-coded OSes but yeah

[mild sentinel]

they are aparently still insistent on the barebones wiki page tho

[earnest willow]

because the wiki is very lame

[grand shadow]

Old habits die hard I guess

[earnest willow]

and also because of community projects like limine, mlibc, and this community overall making osdev more accessible and enjoyable

[native pollen]

that's true

[grand shadow]

Truth

[native pollen]

I had ported newlib to my OS I developed 10 years ago, because this is what OSDev wiki had recommended

and I had done all of the bad practices of OSDev wiki
including a bitmap PMM

[mild sentinel]

limine flanterm mlibc and nanoprintf make getting crap going so much nicer

[willow rapids]

https://tenor.com/view/buzz-lightyear-meme-buzz-year-copy-meme-gif-4668439001950303425

[earnest willow]

is the bitmap pmm something advertised by the wiki?

[native pollen]

yes

this is why I did bitmap

[grand shadow]

Your only options were like,
musl
newlib

[earnest willow]

i thought it was because it comes from qword and then lyre

which were the main projects ppl looked at back in 2020/2021

[grand shadow]

Glibc sucks so ass to port because of lack of documentation etc that it needed to be vibecoded by mint out of spite for the managarm devs

☠️

[mild sentinel]

okay but who cares for thoes esp when they can be swapped out

[earnest willow]

and then the concept stuck around like a tradition

[willow rapids]

ik i'm just saying

[earnest willow]

i guess now the new thing is having a freelist

(good)

[willow rapids]

i still use a bitmap 💀

[native pollen]

What motivates me is that my project is pretty unique, it doesn't have a "competing" project

From what I know no one else is developing a Windows 95 like project

[willow rapids]

lkdos

nvm

[native pollen]

sorry i had a brain fart

[grand shadow]

freelist haters DNI

[earnest willow]

i have a buddy allocator

[native pollen]

mine is an extrusive freelist on a PFNDB

[mild sentinel]

mine is just for learning and having fun

[grand shadow]

naenae @earnest willow go buy yourself a real pmm

[mild sentinel]

and to hopefully make a nice project ;3

but i worry if its bad somtimes

[native pollen]

same

i hope to make a somewhat decent os

[willow rapids]

i had a friend that was making one like 3 years ago but it was painful because building for dos on modern linux systems is ass and he didn't know much osdev anyway

[native pollen]

but it's hard

[mild sentinel]

,!naenae @grand shadow buddy allocators are just many freelists. get your facts right

[native pollen]

I build on DOS

my entire OS is compiled on DOS

[willow rapids]

yeah ig that's the least painful way to do it

[earnest willow]

the only "big" allocations i use with my buddy is for kernel stacks

which i plan to remove soon

and use virtual mappings

[native pollen]

I don't think so, I would much preferred a modern toolkit

[earnest willow]

and apart from that, allocating device structures

[native pollen]

But I do it in DOS because I like the idea of my OS being able to compiled only on DOS

so someone in FreeDOS can get my source files through ftp and run it without any other OS

[willow rapids]

that's fair

[hearty fulcrum]

just do linux compat :^)

[grand shadow]

I avoid any >page_size physical allocations where I can

[earnest willow]

that's the way

[grand shadow]

"I like kicking pregnant dogs" wtf ilobilo why wpuld you say that thats evil

[hearty fulcrum]

I am evil

[native pollen]

I wish I were a mod so I could pin this

[willow rapids]

talk is cheap, send patches talk is cheap, apply to be one

[mild sentinel]

There are no applications

[willow rapids]

wait what

[mild sentinel]

You just like

Randomly get picked

Idk I don't make the rules

[willow rapids]

ah

[hearty fulcrum]

linux compat haters when they patch out a feature they don't want to implement

[native pollen]

I personally wouldn't want to be a mod anyway

I am incredibly lenient which I admit is not a good quality to be found in a mod

[willow rapids]

i was just kidding

[grand shadow]

Staff is just one big freemason group

[native pollen]

Like the only case I would ban someone would be open bigotry

[mild sentinel]

Freemintson group

[hearty fulcrum]

you need to send weekly nudes to managers to stay a mod

trust

[mild sentinel]

Yeah that's why you have to be 18

[native pollen]

damn

Mint Epstein but adult edition

[grand shadow]

Isnt that just like a normal human being who likes adults

[native pollen]

I mean normal human beings don't traffic adults

last time I checked

[hearty fulcrum]

speak for yourself

[mild sentinel]

its more so extortion not trafficing

[grand shadow]

Counterpoint: plane pilots

[mild sentinel]

Not to be confused with cod points

[gritty shore]

it's boring

[mild sentinel]

There is alot more to a kernel than the bootloader and framebuffer terminal implementation

[gritty shore]

yeah but it's getting boring

not many people are trying something that's not "shitty unix clone"

[grand shadow]

I am a shitty unix clone dev AND PROUD

[elfin turtle]

RHAAA

[willow rapids]

i don't want to spend years building a custom userspace that barely runs anything useful

[gritty shore]

that isnt relevant

you can have POSIX or linux compat while doing things differently

[willow rapids]

but that adds a big layer of complexity

[gritty shore]

not necessarily

[carmine swallow]

yeah there are still a lot of things you can do if you want to, like I though about making a thing with linux-compatible contained subsystem but with app/library sandboxing + permission stuff more or less at the kernel level (though I am not sure whether that's actually viable as I still have to try actually doing it but I don't really care whether it could just be done on top of linux or whatever it'd still be interesting to try regardless)

[fierce forge]

They said they wanted to modernize it to mb2

[mild sentinel]

💀

[fierce forge]

But I think Sortix has only gotten multiboot2 support half a year ago, and I guess nobody else cares about it so

The Bare Bones was basically taken from Sortix iiuic

[mild sentinel]

Isn't sortie here

Idk if it would be worth a proper talk about why that tutorial is bad

Along with other stuff on the wiki

[fierce forge]

I mean you can just edit the other stuff

[mild sentinel]

Sure ig

[grand shadow]

He has an account but he is mostly active on sortix irc and osdev irc

[native pollen]

Yeah but I’m personally worried about it turning into a call out or dogpiling

It would probably be better private, or editing the wiki page ourselves

[mild sentinel]

we did try and edit it

and mark it historical

sortie reverted it

he is an admin

[native pollen]

I was thinking more like replacing it with a better tutorial than marking it historical

Using MB2 or Limine for starters

And 64-bit

[willow rapids]

well the forked wiki has a limine bare bones tutorial

and the other one is marked as historical there

but not on the other wiki

[mild sentinel]

well no, it being historical would be proper. it shouldnt be nuked or replaced

[native pollen]

why? I thought replacing it would make more sense

[mild sentinel]

its historical content?

[native pollen]

yeah but wiki pages get updated all the time to reflect the present day better no?

[mild sentinel]

which is why a talk would be good. for merging wikis or anything else

[native pollen]

maybe sortie is reverting it due to there not being a non-historical alternative

[mild sentinel]

make a new page. mark the old has historucal. rename to MB1 Barebones

[native pollen]

oh that makes sense

sorry I’m slow

I thought you meant just marking it historical with no new alternative

[mild sentinel]

for the context of what happened aswell

Bare Bones is fine. I personally vetted all of the contents here. It is what it is, but it is correct for what it is. Other tutorials provide additional information. If you have any concerns for why it should be deprecated, despite years of service, please put it on the talk page or a very good rationale in your edit message

[native pollen]

I see

Did any discussion happen in the talk page?

[mild sentinel]

the highlights of it

[native pollen]

Out of curiosity why is VGA text mode bad?

Isn’t it supported even in modern systems

[mild sentinel]

its not.

[native pollen]

Oh

Yeah that’s an issue then

[mild sentinel]

a limine barebones guide + flanterm/uart + npf would be a way better tutorial

then fixing the paging page etc

and having a solid next steps and flow of what to do

for making a MODERN kernel

[willow rapids]

it's been 39 years.

[mild sentinel]

also fuck it im gonna say it. printing text without a VGA text mode thing isnt hard

get a font

and shit it out to the screen

boom you have a vga text mode emulated

you would have to do the same bullshit for a full TTY regardless

its one extra step

flanterm just gives you a nice pre made impl to get going faster

[willow rapids]

ngl uart would probably be better if you really really don't want to tackle framebuffers

[mild sentinel]

UART is easy

though the example code on the wiki is subpar to my impl

and fails on real hardware

[willow rapids]

i think this happened to me

[native pollen]

yeah but if it worked i think it would be better to use in bare bones, because bare bones needs to be very simple, and writing to a memory location is much simpler than making or shipping a terminal emulator

[mild sentinel]

https://git.evalyngoemer.com/evalynOS/evalynOS/src/branch/main/kernel/src/drivers/16550uart.c

[gritty shore]

kernel running on modern hardware more like

[mild sentinel]

this works on real hardware and x86 and la64

if you need to fix it

[mild sentinel]

we dont want people using bitmaps or still 32bit modes even w/ paging or a framebuffer full

[willow rapids]

nah i already fixed it

i don't remember what i did do lmao

[gritty shore]

modern kernel implies it's actually modern

i dont think there is any "modern" kernel here

maybe managarm is the closest

[mild sentinel]

by modern i mean not using bitmaps and having kernel shells and not using any modern features

not modern != incomplete

[gritty shore]

bitmap is not as bad as you guys make it to be lol

[analog berry]

bitmap pmm really is that bad

[gritty shore]

no

you can just keep track of the first free bit

and it's practically O(1) then

[analog berry]

thats a useless optimization

it will stop working as soon as u use all pages at least once

[native pollen]

for 32-bit it's pretty fast though

so it not being O(1) is not a big deal

[analog berry]

if u only support non pae

even then, its a million iterations worst case for every allocation

that is absolutely horrible

[gritty shore]

No? When you free a page you update it

[analog berry]

then u allocate that page

what do u update it to

[mild sentinel]

then all of the memory it takes to hold the bitmap compared to a freelist

and a buddy allocator technicaly uses more but you need the pfnbd anyways

[analog berry]

ye

[native pollen]

doesn't buddy use bitmaps

at least this is what osdev wiki says

it says that it's several bitmaps with different sizes

                 0   4   8   12  16  20  24  28  32  36
                 ###.#....#........#...###...########.... real memory pattern

   buddy[0]--->  ###.#.xx.#xxxxxxxx#.xx###.xx########xxxx 5  free 4K , 5-byte bitmap
   buddy[1]--->  # # # . # . x x . # . # # . # # # # x x  5  free 8K , 20-bits map
   buddy[2]--->  #   #   #   .   #   #   #   #   #   .    2  free 16K, 10-bits map
   buddy[3]--->  #       #       #       #       #        0  free 32K, 5-bits map

https://wiki.osdev.org/Page_Frame_Allocation

[analog berry]

if you have a pfndb u dont need a bitmap

[mild sentinel]

No.

It's multiple freelists

[analog berry]

but anyway, in this case the bitmap is O(1) because u dont need to scan every bit

[mild sentinel]

With a pfndb of extra data

[mild sentinel]

Well its o(1) best case and o(n) worst case

Ah sorry this for the other thing

[prime mulch]

Going to be a little egotistical and say it's partly bc of mintia

I think me tryharding mintias kernel for yrs here starting in late 2021 injected a lot of tryhard energy into the community here, moreso a couple years ago than now since I stopped being nearly as much of a tryhard

As for like projects that are doing lots of ports like astral I think a lot of that is managarm

Managarm proved a bunch of interesting stuff can be ported to a sufficiently featureful hobby kernel and paved the way psychologically for other people to try to port lots of big things

[pure thunder]

maybe because there is much more documentation and examples today, which makes osdev more accessible, so more developers do it

[prime mulch]

I don't think that explains it that would only explain an increase in quantity not an increase in quality

The increase in quality is cultural rather than a result of better resources

The resources (besides the social resource of this community) haven't really improved

[neon crane]

The fact that there are people tryharding this hobby makes other people also want to tryhard this hobby

It's competitive spirit

[mild sentinel]

I love this hobby so fucking much

[neon crane]

You don't really stand out anymore by just porting GCC and stuff like that. You need to do more.

(Well that's not true. But it feels like everybody has gcc ported these days)

[grand shadow]

To stand out nowadays all u gotta do is say "this was vibecoded in rust by claude"

U will get people soyjaking all over it

[native pollen]

Are we in the same server lol

This is more like how you get banned from here

[mild sentinel]

talking about the wider community atleast

this server is much more narrow and opinionated

(good thing)

[native pollen]

I have not interacted at all with the wider community

I did OSDev back in 2016s

I was in f.osdev.org back then

Then I took a very long break until last year

I googled OSDev discord

Found here

And didn’t look for any other community afterwards lol

[mild sentinel]

Fwiw this is one of the best osdev communities

The forums are sad somtimes

And I don't think I've ever found something useful on them

Forums aren't exactly even suited for live help imo either

[grand shadow]

Thats what the ircs would have been for if not for them being relatively dead

[native pollen]

I love discord tbh

This is why I picked it

[native pollen]

https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/comments/1u9hjhc/how_do_i_do_paging/

literally no one got the joke

of course it is mogged by this: https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/comments/1u1vlfq/my_custom_os_works_on_actual_laptop/

[analog berry]

https://www.reddit.com/r/osdev/s/q5ZU3GneHV

What a joke

Just see the markdown files in that kernel lmfao

[native pollen]

also is this CDE

or some custom DE you made?

[opal lotus]

tfw it's all ring0 single binary

smh

[willow rapids]

nscde

[prime juniper]

Look ma I’m (indirectly) mentioned! But real talk, you’re on to something. When I started porting shit to Managarm, most of the time it was “oh you’ll never do that it’s (near) impossible”. I want to say that the XWayland work was the first time that turned out wrong but it probably really started with the GTK2/3 ports, the graphical IRC client that followed and the WebKit port. Everything else after that just proved the point further. Like even 2020 having X ported was massive, so Managarm having Wayland was out there. Now I can in all honestly say that running a full, modern and widely known DE is absolutely doable. A lot of work and pain, but absolutely doable. And I see it in projects here too. Porting X and GTK is still a massive achievement of course, but porting X isn’t as “unique” (in terms of how often we see it) as it was. And that’s a good thing (well except for me cuz I need to come up with new flexing stuff and the time to do so )

[native pollen]

I just hope I can get close to 5% of what Managarm or Astral or Mintia does one day

I mean I won't exactly have ports of such software, because my OS is not aiming for POSIX or Linux compatibility

so for me the milestone is running cool DOS apps on it

I'm guessing it would be silly to port X to a Windows 95 like

[native pollen]

and whatever I can port that doesn't rely on the OS being POSIX and can be compiled under OpenWatcom

[opal lotus]

i fear you're limiting yourself to like 0.00001%

especially with openwatcom

[native pollen]

yeah, this is why I'm way more concerned about running DOS apps right now

especially once I get DPMI working I will have a lot of nice 32-bit DOS extended apps running under my OS

[grand shadow]

Trillions must managarm

[native pollen]

https://tenor.com/view/true-truth-nuke-super-truth-nova-truth-meme-gif-16889273424352737553

Also, ManagARM

[prime mulch]

5% of a screen with some text on it

mintia currently does nothing

very complicatedly

[willow rapids]

managram

[quartz granite]

mammogram

[pure thunder]

namagarm

[native pollen]

fancy boobie pics

[hearty fulcrum]

spoiler that please

[prime juniper]

.!t managarm

[lusty kayak]

managarm

It's Managarm, not Managram

[willow rapids]

i misspelled it intentionally

[prime juniper]

I am aware

[prime mulch]

Mammogram

[viscid flame]

monogram

[willow rapids]

stereogram

[viscid flame]

pulsegram

[elfin turtle]

.!t managram

[lusty kayak]

Tag managram not found!

[elfin turtle]

doesnt work

[hearty fulcrum]

literally unusable

[bronze nexus]

mnagangarm