#Coach Coach.

338 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

prisma cargo
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Example of a good session request:

Who are you requesting?
A coach coach (someone to teach me how to coach)

What is your time zone?
MST

What specifically do you need help with?
I recently failed the coaching test because I "can definitely brush up on my gameplay.
I'm good at pointing out habits but I just don't punish them myself" - A certain, aquatic organism. I'm just hoping someone can advise me on things I should work on if I want to become a verified coach (i.e. actual gameplay, fundamentals, important terms and techniques. I get the gist of how to spot bad habits, but I need help coming up with a reply).
When are you typically available?
Typically 4 - 6:30 on weekdays and 3 - 8 or 9 on weekends.

How long have you been playing the game for?
I've played since around 2016 (Brawl), 2018 or so for Smash 4, then since 2022 Ultimate.

Can I VC?
No, sorry.

I'm not sure if this post will be taken down because I'm not requesting a character, but I hope someone might be able to help me out!

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twin shuttle
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An abstract one, to be sure, but doable.

prisma cargo
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Also, I need major help with composure. I kick butt in friendlies but lose pretty much every role challenge and comp match I play cause I just can't see it as 'only a fun match'.

twin shuttle
cursive fox
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Highk

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I wish kry did this

prisma cargo
cursive fox
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If underdog can’t get u in an hour I can

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Mostly it’s not about how good you are but how much you know

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About your character and others

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And game mechanics

twin shuttle
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I was going to write a document a while back on how to coach

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Incomplete early draft from a while back.

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Generally speaking, as a coach you need to know what your strengths are first and foremost. What character do you main? What meta do you know? Do you know more about offense, defense, fundies, etc? What is your sort of level? For example, I wouldn't say I was high tier like a lot of the other coaches here, but I'm what I'd call "advanced", so a bit more knowledgeable than intermediate but not as knowledgeable as the high tiers, tourney players etc.

cursive fox
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I thought that was complete

prisma cargo
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I have 400 hours on ssbu, but idek how many hours on smash 4 and brawl

twin shuttle
cursive fox
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Lowk that’s not a lot apparently

twin shuttle
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Brawl and Smash 4 are less relevant here. I only mention that in my coaching thing to show I've got a broad experience, but it's not really applicable to Ultimate.

prisma cargo
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but yeah just 400 on ssbu

twin shuttle
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So coaching isn't about hours but how useful/helpful you are to other people learning.

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So you could have 12k but be very unhelpful to new players, or you could have 400 hours and have knowledge like a walking database.

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When you get a new player, your first job should be to assess them.

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This helps as every player is different, some will outplay you (you just refer them onto another coach), some will have no idea what the shield button is

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And the only way is to fire up a match

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I use my Ganon because he hasn't got any projectiles

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He's not a high tier so no-one can complain he's overpowered (so if you can't beat him, it boils down purely to skill)

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And he often gives very clear readings on how players react

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Some run in fear, some attack aggressively without abandon, a few know to carefully gimp his recovery after knocking him off

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When assessing, your goal isn't to curbstomp your student

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And if you lose, you lose

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Your goal should be to test their reactions and gauge how they behave

prisma cargo
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So if we did a match, that would be the way you test me?

twin shuttle
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Yeah, but think of it like a special kind of match

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You're like a special kind of Level 1 CPU

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And you raise your level of difficulty as the student demonstrates they're more skillful

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So my Ganon, under normal non-coaching conditions would be immediately trying to fish for an attack

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But during an assessment I'll stand still for a few moments to see what they will do

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Dash in and shield to see what they will do

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Do a single nair to see what they will do

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Etc

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If I miss an attack, I check to see if they punish it

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I will always include at least one u-tilt in every match because it's a really meta specific mu check

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You can quickly distinguish knowledgeable players from newbies based on how they react to u-tilt

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Noobs will try to shield it

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Knowledgeable players will just either evade it, outrange it, or punish it

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Some players will panic because they know how dangerous it is but don't know how to defend against it

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U-tilt you can only either:

  • Shield parry (very hard)
  • Spot dodge (very hard)
  • Roll dodge past Ganon (very easy)
  • Shorthop/fullhop (easy)
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It's one of the few attacks in the game that will instantly break shield

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Has a windbox

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And an explosion radius

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So it's a very good learning tool for teaching new players about a bunch of different mechanics

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If they beat your secondary, then you introduce your primary

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If they beat your primary, then you refer them onto a better coach

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During the assessment you should be identifying flaws in their approaches whether or not you win or lose

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You should also identify good behaviours and praise the best ones

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Usually if it's a pro you don't have to praise the best ones

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But if it's a novice, it is a good idea to reinforce the good techniques

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When you spot a flaw, you have a few ways you can correct it

quiet chasm
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This is low-key goated advice

twin shuttle
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You can either try to create a situation in a match that lets you beat it easily, so for example, if my student spams projectiles, I might go Ness to show why spamming projectiles might not always work
Or you can refer them to a video that explains better methods and approaches (for example, DI and SDI)
Or if you don't know how to show it is flawed or know what video to reference, you can ask another coach for advice on the matter

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Whilst yes, you can write explanations on why something is bad, I find it is infinitely better to show why something is bad or why something is better

prisma cargo
twin shuttle
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I personally keep a spreadsheet with a list of videos and terms

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I can just Ctrl + F the spreadsheet and pull a video from a list (they're all videos I've watched).

prisma cargo
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I think I might start by watching certain videos

twin shuttle
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One I save for public sharing. My main one is full of personal notes and scribbles I keep and I can't be arsed to keep extracting the video list.

prisma cargo
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Do you always suggest using ganondorf as the 'level 1 cpu'

twin shuttle
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My recommendation is to skim the list and only view things that catch your interest

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If you force it, it'll be boring

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But if you're interested in it, you'll want to learn

prisma cargo
twin shuttle
quiet chasm
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Also quick question @twin shuttle how much better do you think you should be in order to coach someone?

prisma cargo
prisma cargo
twin shuttle
prisma cargo
quiet chasm
twin shuttle
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I don't do a lot of executions practice

quiet chasm
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I’ve seen a lot of pro players get coaching from people “worse” than them

twin shuttle
prisma cargo
twin shuttle
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When training grabs, I use Mario

prisma cargo
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Then maybe mario to see how they=

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._.

twin shuttle
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Pick whatever character you want, so long as the character doesn't interfere with the assessment

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My Duck Hunt is a really difficult mu check

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So it often distorts how well people play

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Often people will match wits with my Ganon so I usually pick the same character they use so they can observe how I use their character, so it's easier for them to copy

quiet chasm
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True, I won’t use cloud because he’s really frustrating and I don’t want the person I’m coaching to start the session already angry

twin shuttle
twin shuttle
quiet chasm
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Yeah I’m horrible at handicapping myself

twin shuttle
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Disable the B moves, those usually are what cause the most difficulty.

quiet chasm
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Just in general?

twin shuttle
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Just during an assessment. You can always add a B move here and there if they start winning.

quiet chasm
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Yeah I meant with like ganon or just any character

twin shuttle
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Ganon I always use the B moves because he's just so awful in general

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Like the only way warlock punch is going to hit you is if you stand in-front of it

quiet chasm
twin shuttle
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Plus his side-B introduces the concepts of mixing up rolling away/rolling in

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So many roll into f-smash

prisma cargo
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Should I voluntarily introduce 'bad habits' to see how they react?

quiet chasm
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I’ve done that before

twin shuttle
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I might play a bit more, uh

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Attack spammy, shall we say

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Just to see if they can be patient

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Multiple f-smashes in a row, sort of thing

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Funniest one, student uses Luigi, thinks he's winning, I go all in, his Luigi loses

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So then he breaks out Kazuya

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Proceeds to destroy my Ganon, my Duck Hunt, and give Jellyfish a run for his money

prisma cargo
twin shuttle
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If you miss an attack, thats a bad habit

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If you camp shield a little too long, that's a bad habit

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If you spam frisbee one too many times (guilty), that's a bad habit

prisma cargo
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twin shuttle
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So dodging can be baited

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If someone air dodges often you can just empty hop at them

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Bait out the air dodge

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Punish

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For me, if someone has to shield an attack or dodge an attack (with the exception of dodging grabs), I consider it a failure mode

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It suggests they ended up in a situation where their only option was a defensive one, which meant some series of events led up to that failure mode

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Like, it's good they dodged it or shielded it

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But the dodge can be baited

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The shield can be grabbed

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Why did they end up there?

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Sometimes you'll have to 'reverse engineer' how a situation came to be

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twin shuttle
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For example, playing against my Duck Hunt a guy got trapped basically at ledge

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And was shielding non-stop

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His failure mode was he didn't know how to deal with the projectiles

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And gave up stage control

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So ended up boxed in

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Just to be clear I'm not saying all shielding and all dodging is bad, not as in a 'don't do these things'

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But 'you shouldn't be in such a situation it is necessary'

prisma cargo
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I ran into that with the DH ditto against you. You just boxed me in with the projectiles leading to my demise

twin shuttle
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Perfect zoner trope, not knowing how to counter projectiles

prisma cargo
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Granted I suck with DH, but that's no excuse for my lack of how to deal with projectiles

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A fundemental I need to work on if I wanna become a verified coach

twin shuttle
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In your head as DH you should know every projectile your projectiles beats, clanks with, or loses to

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Name me any projectile in the game

prisma cargo
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yeah idk how to do that with DH lol

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Lucas PK fire

twin shuttle
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Clanks with frisbee, knocks back can, kills gunman but is blocked

prisma cargo
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Or I could be a jerk and say Robin's book once it's discarded

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That's just a throwable tho

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twin shuttle
twin shuttle
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And it gets harder

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The charge levels of Samus shot dictate how it interacts too

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But that's the sort of knowledge a coach would need to have

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Doesn't need to be of everything but whatever your field of specialism is

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Your main issue re: composure is not all students are the same

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Some will learn so quickly you'll feel inadequate; took you days, weeks, months, years to learn a thing they picked up in 5 minutes

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Some will learn so slowly you'll be lucky if an hour passes before you teach them one thing.

prisma cargo
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So be understanding and adaptable

twin shuttle
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Fast learners will exhaust your teaching materials and you'll have to improvise

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Slow learners will frustrate the absolute shit out of your patience

cursive fox
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@twin shuttle I beat him btw

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My body is in shambles

twin shuttle
cursive fox
twin shuttle
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Why wasn't iKO terrible at Duck Hunt

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Sorry Neonic, hijacking your thread there, not very professional of me

twin shuttle
prisma cargo
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I felt so bad for him. Most of us didn't even know how to kick a ball

twin shuttle
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I use a specific enforcement mechanism if they don't listen; I SD myself out of the match and won't continue until they've listened

prisma cargo
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But he persisted. I still suck at soccer, but I'm grateful that he was willing to try.

prisma cargo
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Not SD'ing

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lemme rephrase that

twin shuttle
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It's okay if they suck, sucking is fine

prisma cargo
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He did a similar thing where he would make us do things called 'ladders'. Basically running up and down the field as punishment.

twin shuttle
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Some people might need 30 minutes to do Reps for edge guarding and that's fine, you chill whilst they practice it

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Oh I don't punish the student because that's not really a thing I can do

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I just leave the match and basically phrase it as 'if you're not going to listen, there's no point in having the coaching session'

prisma cargo
twin shuttle
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FOMO does the rest

prisma cargo
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Makes them feel guilty yeah

twin shuttle
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If you have a frustrating student I recommend you don't VC, because you may verbally blurt anger you don't mean

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And text lets you build distance

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In terms of teaching in general, VC is highly recommended even if they can't talk

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Because you can explain things during the match hands free

prisma cargo
quiet chasm
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Yeah I low-key don’t like coaching non VC people

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twin shuttle
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If a person can't be VC'd

prisma cargo
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They die

twin shuttle
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Then I highly recommend between matches you write your feedback

quiet chasm
quiet chasm
twin shuttle
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I also like to make them aware in advance before starting a match what I intend to do

prisma cargo
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I mostly just do a first 'fun match', just to see how they play and certain habits they should get out of.

twin shuttle
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So if it's a training round, I tell them it "isn't a normal match but just training", and then explain what steps I'd like them to try to perform

  • Run off ledge
  • Attack
  • Jump back
  • Up-B back to ledge
prisma cargo
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Cloud player I scrimmed yesterday would double jump so early and recover really high, then airdodge everytime I tried to commit. I eventually just learned that and got so many u-smash and f-smashes out of it

twin shuttle
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They could not cope with the d-tilt hand slaps.

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My recommendation is you stick around the coaching channel

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Check the session requests

prisma cargo
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twin shuttle
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Offer to play matches versus any player that interests you

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Okay that's good

prisma cargo
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I'm not in coaches all the time, I should probably look at that more often

twin shuttle
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And when fighting them, just observe mainly for habits and flaws

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If you see any cool techniques they use that you're not familiar with, ask them about it

prisma cargo
twin shuttle
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You might be better with VOD reviews if you can spot things

prisma cargo
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"Underdog, how did you use the gunman pointing away from me?"

twin shuttle
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I used to do detailed write ups for VODs on another server

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I'd look for both opponent habits and player habits

twin shuttle
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Slingshot should be on the spreadsheet

prisma cargo
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Found it

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79

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oops

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#79

twin shuttle
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I don't memorise the numbers

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Ignore them entirely and just Ctrl + F to search for the name

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Slingshot should not be confused with RAR or iRAR although they are sort of similar

prisma cargo
prisma cargo
twin shuttle
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Should be the other way around

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But yeah

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iRAR requires use of tilt stick and I can't crab hand for heck

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Slingshot is some frame-precise timing involving initial dash, skid and pivot

prisma cargo
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This is like talking about taxes to a baby I'm so sorry 😭 I'll watch the videos later to understand what you're talking about

twin shuttle
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Oh, uh

prisma cargo
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I get pivot

twin shuttle
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Crab hand is where your index finger rests on the jump buttons and your thumb rests on the C-stick like a pincer of a crab

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As opposed to the finger being on the shoulder buttons or behind the grip

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More common on GC controllers with no spare shoulder button

prisma cargo
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I don't own a gc controller, but I can picture a crab hand

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That just feels so uncomfortable tho

twin shuttle
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Tilt stick is just a control setting that changes the C-stick from a smash stick to a tilt stick

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Frame precise; every second 60 frames passes

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So 4 frames is 4/60ths of a second

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Or 1/15th if you're simplifying fractions

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Frame precise means within or on those frames

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RAR is reverse aerial rush

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iRAR is instant reverse aerial rush

prisma cargo
twin shuttle
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So it allows your character on the ground to go from facing forwards to facing backwards in the air by rushing

prisma cargo
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Isn't it like running left (or right), quickly facing the opposite direction and performing a bair with forwards momentum?

twin shuttle
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Yes, the difference is RAR involves an attack aerial

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Slingshot simply involves the jump movement

prisma cargo
twin shuttle
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No

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Slingshot can execute whatever you want (including nothing at all! Nothing at all! Nothing at all!)

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Sorry had to get the Simpsons reference in

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RAR implies the use of tilt stick typically

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iRAR explicitly uses the tilt stick

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And comes out... uh, instantly

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iRAR involves moving the analogue stick one way, the tilt stick the other a few frames later

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Unfun fact

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I can slingshot but I absolutely suck at iRARs

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Because I can't crab hand for heck

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Like I can do an iRAR in training mode but

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I hate doing it

prisma cargo
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I'd imagine I'm not too great at it either

twin shuttle
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My understanding is slingshot and RAR can be done analogue only

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iRAR cannot and requires C-stick

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RAR analogue only is a painful experience

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➡️ ⬅️ (🇽+🅰️ + ➡️ )

prisma cargo
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Yeah...

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Probably won't be learning that then

cursive fox
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Light work lowk

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I need that for combos

prisma cargo
cursive fox
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I don’t thrive off of side b

prisma cargo
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Then you thrive off of aerials and nothing else

quiet chasm
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Yeah rar manually is not hard at all bro

prisma cargo
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Oh crap I think I challenged for best amiibo rn

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Thank you all for the support, especially @twin shuttle and his simpsons reference, I'll definitely work to improve on all the stuff you gave me!

cursive fox
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@prisma cargo do you want to play?

prisma cargo
cursive fox
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Ok

twin shuttle
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@prisma cargo So now I've had some sleep I wanted to clarify a few things.

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I will come back later and clarify it, something has come up

prisma cargo
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Actually I might go eat breakfast first

twin shuttle
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People will get bored

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So you want to alternate between normal matches and training sessions

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If a student shows they're eager to continue practicing, then by all means you can continue a training session run

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But I usually treat the assessment like a normal match, then have a training match, then a normal match, and so on

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I usually don't start the normal match until the student has picked up at least one new skill

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And during the normal match I assess to see if they're now using the new skill, whilst looking for the biggest flaw to correct

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If you're bored as a coach, don't be afraid to switch to another more challenging to use character or fun character and have a bit of fun

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Your goal as coach isn't to 3 stock the other player or 'try to prove yourself', as you may feel tempted to do

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But ensure the student is learning meaningfully. I usually incline myself to winning a match, but I usually don't put in too much effort to win, so usually I'll be always within a stock.

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It typically makes the student feel like they 'can' beat you, so they feel inclined to engage more

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If you 3 stock or body them they will feel the skill difference is too big

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Do not do disrespect kills on them if you can help it (unless they ask for that as practice)

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Your goal isn't to demoralise them, they're not an opponent

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Don't teabag or taunt either

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Unless your goal is purely strategic

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I.E. to cause them to become impatient and rushdown

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And if you do that, explain to them why you did it and what purpose it serves

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If they teabag or taunt, then you can retaliate by teabagging back or taunting back, but purely up to you

prisma cargo
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How should I reply if they do ask me to go 'all out' or something to that effect?

twin shuttle
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A lot of the people who 'want to see my Duck Hunt' usually freak out after the first match

prisma cargo
twin shuttle
prisma cargo
twin shuttle
prisma cargo
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Or ganon? I know you mentioned him quite a bit

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Yeah

twin shuttle
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I pick a character I can control competently

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But won't be too overwhelming

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Duck Hunt projectiles are overwhelming

prisma cargo
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Ganon is easy to play and easy to beat.

cursive fox
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Neon what character do you play?

prisma cargo
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cursive fox
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Later I would like you to teach me incin

prisma cargo
cursive fox
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Dang

prisma cargo
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I can teach you both though. Might not be today

cursive fox
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I’ve been tryna get taught incin for literally half a year

prisma cargo