#Need Fundies Help- Cloud

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

crisp cape
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New to smash (9 hours cloud main). Play mostly arena with beginners in mm tab. Struggling on anticipating, counter play, and matchups. Basically all fundamentals. Have watched yt guides on basics and cloud and practiced them.

PST (socal) plays 2-5pm daily on S2 docked LAN. Can VC. Harsh criticism only, serious to improve. Goal: mimic sparg0’s cloud (#9 oat global)

Coaches reading this, it’s never late to help even if you don’t main him, i’ll appreciate anything!

bleak stone
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i cannot help but i just wanna say rn, your mindset is hecking AMAZING already please keep that up

floral carbon
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I’d love to help

floral carbon
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My cloud is pretty good I believe

crisp cape
bleak stone
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doesn't hurt to get compliments here and there lol

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(I'm the zelda coach of this server so lmk if you want experience against Zelda)

crisp cape
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everyone in this server can help as long as they’re able to communicate correct info

bleak stone
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h20 can probably do some stuff like he said

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maybe @swift roost as well

crisp cape
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yea i dm @floral carbon

bleak stone
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okay good

floral carbon
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Yo wsp

crisp cape
floral carbon
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Bro was tryna offer me.. pics… for 200 dollars

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I’m 14 btw

crisp cape
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sorry to hear that. i just didnt want to overcrowd this chat in case another coach wanted to pitch in

floral carbon
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It probably won’t be

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It only gets crowded when someone starts the actual coaching session

bleak stone
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and dms ofc

floral carbon
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So when are we doing this?

crisp cape
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tues 2-5? trying to mimic spargo’s cloud

floral carbon
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Pretty high expectations

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Very high even

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Extremely high

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We do both realize he’s top 5 in the world right

crisp cape
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reach for the stars if u want to land on the moon

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ik but it doesn’t mean i’ll come close im just lyk who im mostly watching

floral carbon
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Or die in space

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Ok we can start tmr

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One thing I want before we start is a vod review to see what we’re working w

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You don’t have to do it tho

crisp cape
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how do u want me to do it?

floral carbon
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Show me a video of you playing

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After a match press y to record

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And then from there go into the purple tab when you get into the game, replays, record and then post

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If you have a phone

crisp cape
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typically other comp games they got replay code where you can paste into replay sites that upload it to yt (overwatch, lol)

floral carbon
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Ik

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We don’t have that

crisp cape
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if that’s the best method for smash i’ll do it like that

floral carbon
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Well that’s the method I use

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Idk if it’s the best

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It’s just the only one I can do

bleak stone
floral carbon
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Don’t do it

crisp cape
floral carbon
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Shes evil

bleak stone
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i can r

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rn*

floral carbon
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Shes evil kitty

bleak stone
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me or Zelda

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or my Zelda

floral carbon
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Real life footage

crisp cape
bleak stone
floral carbon
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Nuh uh

bleak stone
floral carbon
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This is

crisp cape
bleak stone
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kk

floral carbon
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😢 u said Tuesday

crisp cape
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she’s the warmup 🤪

floral carbon
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Alr

bleak stone
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cloud Zelda is -3 for Zelda 💔

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I'm signing myself up for pain

floral carbon
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Probably not tbh

bleak stone
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@crisp cape that was like my first time trying to help a non Zelda so ig it was beneficial for the both of us lol

floral carbon
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How’d it go

crisp cape
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learned general tech so hopefully u can teach cloud specifics

floral carbon
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Also cloud does not have the most stuff ever

crisp cape
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i’ll show tmw. wanna learn his best combos and situational moves

bleak stone
floral carbon
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So uh…

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About… 2 of those paragraphs aren’t actually like true

bleak stone
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I tried

floral carbon
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That’s Alr

wild minnow
# crisp cape New to smash (9 hours cloud main). Play mostly arena with beginners in mm tab. S...

Anticipation boils down to two things:

  1. What the character of your opponent is best placed to do against your character (E.G. Little Mac will want to run fast along the ground and punch hard using armoured attacks)
  2. The mindset of the player which is often dictated by their playstyle. Do they run away? Are they aggressive? Do they jump a lot? Profile their behaviour. You can usually get a sense for them within the first 30 seconds.

I'll need you to define what you mean by "counter play". What are you trying to counter specifically?

Combos boils down to Training mode practice, knowledge of the character meta (study combo videos on YouTube and practice each one in turn as best as possible), practicing to a level you get muscle memory, and finally integration into your normal gameplay with harder to predict opponents. Study hitstun durations and knockback amounts of your various moves at different percentages in Training mode so you get a rough idea of where you will launch the opponent and how far they will go (note: it will be without the opponent doing DI or SDI; you'll have to lab those with a friend).

crisp cape
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@floral carbon ready? where u want to vc?

crisp cape
wild minnow
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If a player learns what you're doing it means you've got predictable behaviours and you need to adjust your technique, moveset, approaches etc by asking yourself 'how did I get hit by that and what could I do differently next time?'

crisp cape
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@wild minnow are u able to coach cloud? or just fundies? would be good help

wild minnow
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I won't be able to do VC given the time of night on my end but I can definitely do an assessment and write up feedback.

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Well I'm in another match now, so let me know if you're around

crisp cape
wild minnow
floral carbon
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Yeah u got that

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I lowk have stuff to do unfortunately

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Like I didn’t yesterday

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But yk

crisp cape
floral carbon
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Friday I can do

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If you can do it then

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And like the week after

crisp cape
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ya i can

wild minnow
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Okay I'll host, give me a moment to get setup

crisp cape
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CH074

wild minnow
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No no, I will host

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Very thoughtful but I've got coaching specific rulesets

crisp cape
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can i pick stage?

wild minnow
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Yes however for assessment I'd like stage selection to be random, after I've done the initial assessment then you can pick a stage

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7SV3J / 11

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I'll be in coaching 1 for VC

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Yes I can hear you

floral carbon
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I can too

IMG_5740.jpg
wild minnow
floral carbon
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Uhm

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I’m not sure cloud uses this

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Bc bair is arguable better

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So maybe a RAR vid instead?

wild minnow
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Have you watched the video?

floral carbon
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Yeah

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I watch most of his vids

wild minnow
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Then you'll know it contains b-air moves, along with a wide variety

floral carbon
wild minnow
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Swordies can use whatever approach swordies prefer to use

floral carbon
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And in this case it’s bair

wild minnow
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There's no fixed ruleset for what move swordies want to use

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Can we please not do this again H20

floral carbon
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You right mb

wild minnow
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@crisp cape I've posted the video stuff here (there's more above)

crisp cape
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watching them now

wild minnow
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The cheapo wireless pro controller (shaped like a GC controller) like I said I'd link:

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I actually used one of those and I'd argue it's on par with the prior PowerA controllers. It's not amazing but it is functional.

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Avoid the cheap wired GC controllers through, because I've had nothing but grief with cheapo wired GC controllers. Wireless pro controllers that are shaped like GC controllers seem to be fine.

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I'm sure the other types exist on there.

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Can also buy replacement parts on there.

floral carbon
crisp cape
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3pm vc? focus only on cloud tech, fundies i do with other coach

floral carbon
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Yeah

floral carbon
crisp cape
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1:30 rn im in cali (pst)

floral carbon
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Alr

crisp cape
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is this optimal? not using x and y what could i change?

IMG_8985.jpg
crisp cape
floral carbon
crisp cape
wild minnow
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You probably only want one attack button and one special button

floral carbon
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Ok so three things to work on

crisp cape
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@wild minnow coach fundies for an hour? or when are u available?

floral carbon
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Use aerials more:
As cloud these are your safest options to do damage and to pressure your opponent. Uses for each aerials are as follows
Up air: juggle opponent as they try to land on you. Combo ender from up tilt
Neutral air: safe landing option and pressuring tool
Back air: main pressuring tool used to do most of your damage.
Forward air: bair adjacent tool that can combo at lower percents
Down air: used to land on your opponent

floral carbon
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Uk time zone I think

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Anyway

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W key your opponent more:
Teaches you how to pressure your opponent, how to attack while being put at a low risk, and it helps you get better fundies

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Lastly I think I told you… to like… kinda forgot

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Oh yeah

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Learn spacing

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I think that’s self Explanatory for the most part

crisp cape
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🫡on it coach

floral carbon
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Try those things

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I believe in you

wild minnow
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I would suggest fighting @craggy plover

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Specifically ask for their Cloud, it's pretty decent from what I've seen.

craggy plover
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It's mostly about your implicit pressure

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Falling bair is really scary, since it's hard to punish, and can set up offstage edgeguarding for Cloud, usually while he farms limit

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Either that or a ledgetrump

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So they're likely to shield and back away/disengage

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So with Cloud, you have to bait out your landings, and when you land, mix them up with empty hop > tomahawk grab, or side b when you land

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Side B is a good mix up in shield, since you can cancel after nearly all of the hits, and if they keep shielding, you can grab them

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His combos are simple, like fair >side b

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Bair > side b

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Bair > up b

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Also use up b oos, since it's fast and relatively hard to punish without disjoints

crisp cape
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able to coach tmw? or when u available?

floral carbon
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Also you should probably learn how to do what I told u to do first

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We have a rule for like a week in between sessions

crisp cape
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oh alr, i practice everyday and most ppl schedule many days ahead thats why i ask

brazen coyoteBOT
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@crisp cape has earned the Newcomer role!

craggy plover
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Sures

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I was busy all of yesterday

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But I'm free later today

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Like, 10 hours from now

crisp cape
craggy plover
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I'm pretty sick, so I can't VC, but I can help with Cloud tech

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Not sure in an hour, but I'll try my hardest

craggy plover
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@crisp cape I don't think I can get on any later than now

crisp cape
craggy plover
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Sounds good

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I'll host in a sec

crisp cape
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F0X60 in coaching 1

craggy plover
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I'm in coaching 1?

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Oh, there you are

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Yeah, you're mic sounds good

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No?

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Okay, I see what you mean about throwing a bunch of nonsense being thrown at once at you

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I get what you mean, yeah

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Yeah, that sounds good

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I'll try, since time's a bit iffy

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Yeah, you can keep your stage

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I don't think I have an hour, but I'll try my hardest

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We can stop now

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Uhhh

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Wait, lemme just dq rq

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Oh

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Yeah, I'll just write in the tech

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Climb Hazard -
For ledge trumping **
For put of shield
For combos

Back air -
For combos
ON SHIELD, USE IT ON SHIELDS, I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH
Keep you opponent at ledge

Up Air -
Juggling
Juggling
Juggling

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Main things

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Not really tech, since Cloud doesn't have a whole lot

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Climbhazard is the big one

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Grab if you notice me shielding a lot

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Not bad, but you need an end goal for running away and charging limit

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See how they react to it and then punish them for making that mistake

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But what I want you to do, is run offstage, and up b to the ledge IMMEDIATELY

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Ledgetrumping

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Just run and hang to ledge

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Just back air

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You need a LOT less dair

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I can't stick around for another game sadly

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But I'll write you a list of stuff rq

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Yeah, I got the idea

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Can't later, but I'm free all week nearly

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Yeah, I'm in BST

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It's 10pm for me rn

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Uhhh, I'll write it now so I don't forget

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Bet

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I'll leave vc

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Have a good one🔥🔥🔥

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Back air combos
Fair combos
Up air juggling
Bair ledgetrapping
Appropriate times to use limit
Bait and punishing
Breaking habits (dair, blade beam, rolling)
Using your other moves (I'll go more into detail about this next time)

crisp cape
craggy plover
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I'm not gonna be free at all really for about a week

crisp cape
craggy plover
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If you can, could you send some videos of you playing via the save replays and I can review them for you

crisp cape
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idk how to get it from the switch to dc

craggy plover
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Get the nintendo online app

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And you can press y to save recordings

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Go to your vault

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And save it as a video

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And share online

wild minnow
# crisp cape idk how to get it from the switch to dc

Or if you can't upload because you live in Siberia or the Rural parts of the UK, and you have an SD card in your Switch:
Save Replay
Go into Replays, find the recording
Convert to Video (figure out how the recording feature works, it's not the most intuitive)
Once converted, properly power off Switch (don't just press the button but hold it, bring up the menu, choose power off)
Extract SD card
Use a micro-SD card reader and dump it out onto either PC or whatever device you have
Find the video recording (the SD isn't well organised so you'll have to do a file search probably)
Either upload it to a third party video hosting site, OR convert the video to be under 8mb or 20mb (whichever is your Discord limit)
Link/Upload here
(Be sure to reinsert the SD card into the Switch before powering it back on, and make sure it recognises the card. If it doesn't, repeat removal and insertion, powering off properly each time. A pain, but I didn't invent the damn thing.)

crisp cape
wild minnow
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The compression settings will degrade video quality somewhat. If you absolutely must keep quality, and you don't mind waiting literal hours:
ffmpeg -i YourVideo.mp4 -c:a libvorbis -ac 1 -b:a 96k -ar 48000 -b:v 1100k -maxrate 1100k -bufsize 1835k CompressedYourVideo.webm

crisp cape
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under are u able to play a lil tmw (no vc if u want) cause your feedback helped me tons

wild minnow
crisp cape
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last time i wasn’t docked and it was default settings, i wanna show u improvement

wild minnow
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Alright, I look forward to it.

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Example of the first version's upload quality.

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And yes, that is me playing the kazoo, whilst I fight Mario, as Ness

crisp cape
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shows as error when i save to files, cause it’s a webM media i think

wild minnow
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Upload to Odysee, has less strict registration requirements.

bleak stone
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in a band

crisp cape
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0YYS3 / 1

wild minnow
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Allow me to get setup, I'll probably be about 15 minutes

wild minnow
crisp cape
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yea i’m still here

wild minnow
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Alright

floral carbon
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Yo how’s progress been qt

wild minnow
crisp cape
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@wild minnow 0YYS3 / 1 i like this flat stage with no distraction (3 stock). i also have 10 min no stock rules

wild minnow
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If you intend to go pro you'll want to learn all legal stages though

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Your Cloud is incredibly stationary

crisp cape
wild minnow
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Yes, I was about to Switch

crisp cape
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ok

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didn’t mean to tag u h20

wild minnow
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It's okay, H20 likes to follow me around

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So I kept doing the same move to show you how you need to keep mobile and cannot sit in the same spot

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I'm going to crack out a different character

crisp cape
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for players better than me i do a wait and see approach cuz my brain can’t anticipate fast enough

wild minnow
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Anticipation comes from experience and generalisations

floral carbon
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Oh mb

floral carbon
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I was

crisp cape
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u did that so i dont shield

wild minnow
wild minnow
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You're improving. Forgive the very basic DK but I'm doing those moves explicitly to punish bad habits until you unlearn them. You're getting better.

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Good. When I'm attacking low, you need to make use of aerials to hit me.

crisp cape
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are all the moves u doing have longer range than any of clouds ground attacks?

wild minnow
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Yep, that's called spacing.

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I'm outspacing you with my longer range attacks, so you're not able to just sit there.

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You have to do aerials at me.

crisp cape
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just making sure now ik i have to rush u from above

wild minnow
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You don't always have to rush

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Assess the situation

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You've been landing with d-airs more frequently, but your timing with them is off

crisp cape
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isn’t bullying how u beat heavies

wild minnow
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Sorta, but Cloud is kinda slow and I'll show you what a full DK can do next match

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I've only been punishing just your habits and not following up

crisp cape
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oh hell nah

wild minnow
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So you did better at evading the more common DK habits. You missed an opportunity to recover on second stock

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Your limit break was almost full

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Down-B, charge it, immediately up-B

crisp cape
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ok

wild minnow
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Only works if it is near full though!

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So your disadvantage state needs quite a bit of work

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So lets cover the theory on it quickly

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Disadvantage is any time your opponent has an advantage over you. So, if you're being juggled upwards, you're in disadvantage, if you're on platform and they're under you, you're in disadvantage. Off-stage and trying to recover, disadvantage.

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When in disadvantage your behaviour has to radically shift.

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You should not be thinking 'man I got to continue hitting the opponent'

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You need to be thinking 'oh hell no, I don't want to get hit'

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You should not be trying to move your character closer to your opponent when in disadvantage, you should be trying to make it as hard as possible for them to hit you

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So, in a very, overly simplified format: when in disadvantage, you become evasive

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When you take hits, Smash has a concept known as "hitstun"

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When your damage percent meter goes higher, the hitstun becomes longer and longer

crisp cape
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i think it’s timing. i don’t understand when in the air whose hit gets priority and i’m not sure when to dair cause if i do late u jump and uair and if early im punished late. but cloud’s sour spot lasts decades so forgiving. this goes same for when im advantage and ur in the air. i hit when ur tumbling right? but most times im getting hit by dair.

wild minnow
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And at some point (usually about 30% upwards) you will enter a state known as the "tumble mechanic"

wild minnow
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This isn't about priority

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You shouldn't be attacking

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You're in disadvantage

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This should be about evasion, with the goal of getting back to the stage (specifically, on the stage ground itself, and not just a platform)

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So, when in hitstun, beyond a certain point you enter tumble

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And tumble allows you to tech when you land against something

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You can tech using either shield or jump, but for the purposes of this match we won't be covering that (yet)

crisp cape
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at low percents tho when i’m being combo’d if i air dodge away i get punished on ground (grabbed). and ik it’s bad to air dodge upwards

wild minnow
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So, recap:
Disadvantage is when opponent has advantage over you
Disadvantage state you need to try to evade the opponent
When you take hits, the higher your % the longer the hitstun is (and the longer you have to wait before you can act out of hitstun)
Beyond a certain point, hitstun will become tumble (tumble you can tech)

wild minnow
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You took 4 u-tilts in a row and I wasn't even pursuing you

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Okay, so you kept trying to attack me high when I was using u-tilt, which is an anti-air option

crisp cape
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pick someone with a good up tilt who doesn’t hit hard

wild minnow
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But you evaded better that time by landing away from me

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You were 140%

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That's kill percentage ranges

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Between 100-140% is kill percent ranges for most moves

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Not all, admittedly

crisp cape
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im doing it on purpose so i can get into disadvantage but u should follow up so ik what i cant do

wild minnow
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But a large chunk

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I'm intentionally not following it up to make sure you're doing the initial basics right

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And you shouldn't be intentionally trying to fail

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You should just allow that to occur naturally

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Don't train bad habits

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You seem to be staring at me when I'm ripe for being hit

crisp cape
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like when i’m have advantage?

wild minnow
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Like when I'm doing silly DK stuff and it doesn't reach you sort of watch me, then go into shield

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When you should be doing dash attack, projectiles, f-smashes, f-tilts, anything to make my life harder

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Also, DI seems to be an issue

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I know I linked the DI video before, did you watch it?

crisp cape
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yes

wild minnow
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Right, so, there's other concepts ESAM doesn't cover in DI that I'll call Underdog DI until somebody lays claim to it

crisp cape
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i think i trained myself to play defense instead of aggro

wild minnow
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ESAM's DI counters being launched

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Which isn't always beneficial if you're trying to exit a combo

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Sometimes you want to boost a specific launch direction so you get further momentum

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For example, if I'm hitting you upwards with u-tilt

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You don't want to DI straight down

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Or even diagonal left+down or right+down (except maybe at very high percents)

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But hold either JUST left or JUST right fully

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Which will increase your launch velocity in that direction

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Meaning you move further away from the opponent

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At more advanced levels you want to aim for what I call the zig-zag tactic

crisp cape
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a coach told me that i dair way too often so i need to mix it up with the speed like fast falling

wild minnow
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So you hold momentum in one direction for the first hit

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And then hold momentum in the opposite direction for the second

wild minnow
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They don't mean use it all the time in every situation possible

crisp cape
wild minnow
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They're saying 'here's a possibility you could use'

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And it is up to you to determine how useful it is in a given situation

crisp cape
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alright

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how do i get outta that

wild minnow
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So you've reverted to standing still

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Well, you don't, generally speaking

crisp cape
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if i jump tho u gonna up tilt

wild minnow
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Also you want to shorthop the grabs rather than spotdodge

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Yeah

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But you have other movement options

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Running, walking

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Foxtrotting

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Heck even using specific attacks that move you forward slowly

crisp cape
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is there a point of spot dodge cuz i feel like jump or rolls are better

wild minnow
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Yes, spot dodge is mainly for dodging normal (non-DK) style grabs

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Jump can be punished with aerials

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Rolls are very punishable

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Just bear in mind I'm not giving you the full experience, I'm specifically just punishing your habits and little else

crisp cape
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are spot dodge frame wise just faster

wild minnow
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Yes.

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More responsive, and can also dodge attacks, where-as roll dodge can get caught by certain kinds (E.G. DK's down-B)

crisp cape
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should i do them in air disadvantage

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like u saw me do it

wild minnow
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Air dodging downwards towards me is not ideal

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You need to air dodge away from me

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Preferably you want to use your evasion in roughly this order:

crisp cape
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when i’m high percent do i tumble towards ledge always

wild minnow
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  1. Use analogue stick movement, until you see an incoming threat, then
  2. Jump, then if you see another threat
  3. Neutral air dodge (stick to neutral, I.E. no direction)
  4. If your up-B is an attack, optionally up-B
wild minnow
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There's no perfect setup.

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You need to react to what your opponent is doing.

crisp cape
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why neutral and is 3 and 4 like scenario based cuz idk if u can do both in the same fall

wild minnow
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The scenarios are if-else

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If you recall it is how my DK behaved

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Sometimes I will swap the jump and air dodge to mess with my opponents

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Now I'm going to force you to approach this time

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I'm playing Steve

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Why aren't you like that vs DK?

crisp cape
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i don’t like playing like this cuz my hit percent is prolly like 40%. it’s very punishable but ik u were not doing it

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no play steve cuz ik how he works

wild minnow
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You can't outcamp Kirby up-B spam

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You have to approach

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And this is like 2 mil GSP score tactics

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Kirby will not allow you to remain defensive

crisp cape
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play cloud i’ll do kirby show me how to play that

wild minnow
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I'm going to ramp up the difficulty until you stop hiding in shield

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Alright, sure

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Note up-B spam Kirby is very, very common

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Suck works like grab, you can wiggle escape it

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Notice I alternated shield and aggression

crisp cape
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i never faced a kirby until today tho

wild minnow
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Well, if you switch back to Cloud, more Online nightmares will await

#

You'll want to get the annoying stuff dealt with now

#

This guy will really punish you if you stay too stationary for long

crisp cape
#

i struggle with heavies cuz idk how to play against them and they got sm cheese

wild minnow
#

Heavies you need to be slow and methodical on

#

But active

#

Can't be patient

crisp cape
#

like bowser

wild minnow
#

So I'm indirectly also teaching you how to deal with zoners. You can't outcamp them, and they can't fire projectiles if they're being slapped in the face.

#

See projectiles as an obstacle course to overcome to punch your opponent in the face, and not as the thing to "run from" or "avoid"

crisp cape
#

ok

wild minnow
#

If you go Ness

#

And I go Cloud

crisp cape
#

idk how to play need

wild minnow
#

PK fire is side-B

#

The green ball is B

#

Spam PK fire on me

#

And I'll show you how to deal with it

#

I won't even use jump

#

Spam PK fire?

#

Side-B

#

Dashing shielding, and timing the shield correctly is the most basic approach option

#

But I showed you a few others

crisp cape
#

but like u don’t do anything but grab

wild minnow
#

I did it to prove I could hit you in that scenario

#

If I used power moves it'd kill you

crisp cape
#

cuz that’s a problem like even if i do hit i can’t follow with anything

wild minnow
#

You don't always need to have a follow up

#

I was surprised you weren't perpetually trying to spam PK fire on me

crisp cape
#

well cuz ik u gonna shield and grab

wild minnow
#

So you now know there's a very basic counter

#

I showed you another one

#

Shield and up-B

#

But you can in theory do anything out of shield if your timings are sound

#

F-smash, u-tilt, jab

crisp cape
#

but like u still got hit a lot so it does seem to work even tho yk it’s coming

wild minnow
#

Ness is quite small so difficult to hit

#

Yeah I got hit a lot, but remember

#

Every grab I got in, would have potentially been a limit-break up-B

#

Or even an f-smash

#

You would have been dead a few stocks earlier if I wasn't showing how to consistently deal with projectiles

#

Also notice I walked out of the PK fire

#

I didn't jump out

#

Yes, you can jump out of it, but a lot of Nesses will fish for that

crisp cape
#

i think pikachu’s are even more annoying as most know how you’re react on top of being small

wild minnow
#

Well

#

I'm going to teach you foxtrotting and dash shielding

#

So grab cloud

crisp cape
#

ik foxtrotting, i do it when i have limit to see what the opponent does

wild minnow
#

I might have taught it before, but it was severely underutilised

#

In every single projectile match

#

So, a refresher

crisp cape
#

thing is ppl ur level won’t fall for it

wild minnow
#

You're not aiming to beat 'people my level'

#

You're aiming to beat people your level

#

It is a ladder, you climb up

crisp cape
#

well camping works at my level

#

cuz ppl play slowly

wild minnow
#

So first, refresher on foxtrotting

#

Isn't purely for baits

#

It's a movement tech, it's for movement

#

Right, good you can do it consistently

#

You need to use it more for mobility, not merely baits

#

There's a move on top of it

#

Called dash shielding

#

Please don't hit me

#

Distracts

#

Dash shielding is basically an initial dash + shield button (or a single foxtrot + shield)

#

Dash shielding is what you use to advance on projectiles

#

You don't want to flick the shield always, but hold it up until the projectile hits

#

Dash a bit further, shield

#

Like you're pushing forwards under enemy fire

#

So I'll use my projectile

crisp cape
#

why not just roll everytime projectile is close

wild minnow
#

You use dash shelding to advance

#

Because dash shielding keeps forward momentum

#

See, you're taking hits

#

You need to dash, hold shield until the projectile hits

#

Then move

#

HOLD

#

HOLD SHIELD

#

Not flick

#

Okay, you spam projectiles at me

#

I'll show you, it's a timing thing

#

Okay your shield is too small

#

You're being shield poked

#

So once you're within about here

#

You can use a shorthop aerial

#

If the projectile spam is too strong

#

Usually your opponent will panic if you get that close anyway

crisp cape
#

there’s no way u can do that in real game against fox

wild minnow
#

Fox's laser is irrelevant

#

It has no knockback

#

So you can quite literally ignore it

crisp cape
#

or like any sober

#

zoner

wild minnow
#

You don't have to always use dash shielding, you can use shorthops to close the gap as well

#

Yeah but that's their strength

#

You have to adapt, evade, hit projectiles

#

So you can forward clank my shots

#

You need to either do very large pull backs or very large push forwards

crisp cape
#

how come u didn’t do it to me when i was spamming

wild minnow
#

Spam it on me

#

I'll show you how

#

Shark fin's movement

#

No

#

Spam the projectile

#

Are you going to spam the projectile?

#

Or just do pointless aerials?

crisp cape
#

my bad i was trying to short aerial while moving

wild minnow
#

Perhaps, but you can practice that in Training mode

crisp cape
#

for some reason i can’t do it while directional at all

wild minnow
#

Again, that would be a thing to fix out-of-session if there's a controller fault

#

My time is precious and the coaching is free

crisp cape
#

yes coach

wild minnow
#

I can demo a few more techniques then you can head off to sort out your controller issue

#

But I'll need your cooperation to demo it

#

So you go to the ledge and spam projs at me

#

And I'll show you the shark fin movement

#

You need to be a bit closer to the ground

#

Or by the time you land you'll get hit

#

You can mix up shark fin movement with shielding

crisp cape
#

but can’t they run and up tilt

wild minnow
#

And then jump out of shield

#

Yeah, they could, but that forces them to stop using projectiles

#

If you anticipate their next move, you can counter it

#

So if I ran up and u-tilt, you could have landed and raised shield

#

Or you could pull back and throw out a projectile

#

Spam projs at me again

crisp cape
#

what if i time it different

wild minnow
#

If you delay the spacing it makes it easier to advance, especially if you use shield

#

So, throw out any timing you want

#

And I'll show you

crisp cape
#

do dash shield

#

can i punish the jumps

wild minnow
#

Ignore that

#

Sure, if you want to mix it up, go for it

crisp cape
#

well typically most won’t throw projectile if i hit middle swuare

#

u*

wild minnow
#

Swuare?

crisp cape
#

square on the ground for example

wild minnow
#

Well, this isn't a typical stage

#

But you use whatever techniques you want

#

We'll fight normally

crisp cape
#

like that range

wild minnow
#

Use more projectiles and see how I handle them

crisp cape
#

cuz they know if they do then it’s too slow to react

wild minnow
#

Even if I take hits, if I win the interaction I'm still taking advantage

crisp cape
#

ok i’ll camp

wild minnow
#

At one point you shielded my projectiles

#

But then didn't follow up

#

As soon as you shield a projectile, especially at close range, you have a timing advantage

#

You should exploit it and try to land a hit

crisp cape
#

ill follow up

wild minnow
#

Also don't camp this time

#

Go all in like you did with Steve

crisp cape
#

oh didn’t see that

wild minnow
#

You did a little better with managing projectiles

#

Notice how I don't use too many

#

But I throw them out to catch getup rolls from floor

#

Or as aerial interceptors

crisp cape
#

i was expecting them so i can practice

wild minnow
#

It forces air dodge when used on an airborne target

crisp cape
#

was that foxtrot good to take the second stock

wild minnow
#

But a better option is to hit them in the air

wild minnow
crisp cape
#

but ik it wouldnt work if u tried

#

also u didn’t grab me

#

like usual

wild minnow
#

Nope, the grabbing was primarily for demo purposes

#

I replaced it with attacks

#

So when your shield runs low, it can be shield poked

#

So you want to switch to using more evasion to avoid taking hits and give your shield a chance to regen

#

Evasion also means backing off a bit

crisp cape
#

u said don’t evade earlier tho

wild minnow
#

At no point did I say that

#

I said don't camp

#

Not the same thing

crisp cape
#

ok

wild minnow
#

The reason your shield keeps going low is you often stay in it for multiple attacks rather than exiting to punish

#

As for my off-stage projectile gimp kill

crisp cape
#

that’s one of his edguards

wild minnow
#

Better options for the first projectile was directional airdodge horizontal past the projectile (requires practice on timing)

#

Or f-air to clank

#

If you beat the first, the second would have been less of an issue

#

Second wasn't beatable in your situation

crisp cape
#

how u want me to play this

wild minnow
#

However

crisp cape
#

or what are u doing differently

wild minnow
#

Normal match

#

So side-B and B can stall Cloud from falling (stall mechanic works a bit like jump in it only resets when you touch the ground: you get one for side-B and one for B).

#

So if you're in the air, you can slow down your fall speed by doing side-B

#

Which is what I was doing in the air

crisp cape
#

yea i saw u did it over proj and ik spargo does it to stall when opponent is edguarding

wild minnow
#

You can use it likewise, although obviously factor in limit break

#

If you're fully charged you want to save it for up-B

crisp cape
#

i saw u do it to edguard but it won’t work cuz it doesn’t stun

wild minnow
#

You're correct, I did it to interrupt

#

Nice, a lot better

#

I really liked the use of evasion + hits on the second stock

#

You threw me for a loop there

#

I think you avoided taking any damage for a good portion of that and got me up to 94%

crisp cape
#

nah see i’m literally playing how i did from the start it’s just u don’t play him and that’s how beginners play so it’s ez

wild minnow
#

You're not though

#

At the start you sat in shield and barely moved

#

In this match though you were doing backflips and jumping over me and coming back with b-airs and side-Bs

#

Much better technique

#

Evasion and aggression are not mutually exclusive sometimes

crisp cape
#

wait my controller died

#

imma have to charge it so guess we can end

wild minnow
#

GGs, good practice

#

Keep up the mobility habits and hits

crisp cape
#

i think it’s also cause you’re easier to punish

wild minnow
#

So the dancing around, running in and out for baits, hitting me, that was all good stuff

#

Maybe, but beating my Cloud is a good step up

crisp cape
#

cause the duck hunt there’s so much happening on the screen i can’t even defend myself

wild minnow
#

Remember I was spamming one move as Kirby to beat you at one point

#

And now you're handling all sorts from my Cloud

#

Projectiles, landings, etc

#

You even did a neat edge guard

crisp cape
#

yea i been practicing that

wild minnow
#

That's good stuff, keep it up

crisp cape
#

but i wasn’t able to hit the dair edguard

#

remember u taught me how to practice that

wild minnow
#

It's okay, not every edge guard is successful

#

They all serve different purposes

#

A game of probability

#

Do enough edge guards and one is bound to kill

crisp cape
#

yes coach🫡

wild minnow
#

Recharge your controller, practice dash shielding, and the shark fin style mobility

#

Once you consistently beat my Cloud, I'll find you a better Cloud player to fight

crisp cape
#

that’s not the most important thing u taught

wild minnow
#

It isn't?

crisp cape
#

yea u tried teaching with DK

#

spacing?

wild minnow
#

Yeah, spacing

#

And also not landing (on DK) in disadvantage

#

Cloud thrives on spacing

#

But the spacing required will vary from character to character

crisp cape
#

what’s his longest move

#

i be getting poked from lucina down tilt and can’t do anything

wild minnow
#

So Cloud will struggle against other swordies because they can also space

wild minnow
# crisp cape what’s his longest move

Spacing is situational, so it isn't so much which is his longest move but what will work in a given situation
For example, hitting downwards your only option is d-air

#

In terms of range, his projectile

#

In terms of grounded attack forwards, f-smash or side-B but situational

#

Grounded attack up is u-tilt

#

For aerials, his best horizontal is b-air but you need to learn aerial reversals (apologies, wrong one)

#

You do need to also learn B reversals but that's another time

#

For upwards it's technically speaking either his up-B or his n-air, but his u-air has the killing power

#

Really difficult tech to learn initially

#

I strongly recommend setting Training mode to 1/2 or 1/4 speed when trying to get the initial sequence down

#

And then speeding up the frame timing until you can do it consistently at a normal speed

#

My recommended learning sequence is this (normal speed):
Do running backwards and forwards where you consistently get the skid mechanic
Then do running b+f with skid, and pressing the jump just after skid (you should "glide")
Then, at some point, doing running b+f, getting skid, pressing jump, then pressing A (so you get a glided n-air).
Finally, running b+f, getting skid, jump, then A + backwards (for a b-air)

#

Then finally get the timings down so they're as fast as possible to execute for the very last sequence (your opponent won't give you much time).

#

You can also use tilt stick for this but I've learned non-tilt stick.

crisp cape
wild minnow
#

It's a smoovement tech but I don't want to overwhelm you with that, especially as smoovement is a much later refinement, more like polish than practical

crisp cape
#

slingshot bair should lemme bair anytime on ground like spargo unless he’s doing RAR

wild minnow
#

Slingshot tech is different

#

Being able to do slingshot will make learning iRAR easier

crisp cape
#

clipped from finals he cross slash off screen and recovers consistently which is wild

crisp cape
#

@wild minnow @floral carbon need insight on if i personally should play min min or pyra/mythra next. pyra’s closer to cloud, teaches me fundies better, and is higher tier to MM. MM is a character you learn and get used to separately, but i haven’t played smash long anyways. difficulty wise i think will be harder. i like MM playstyle how you can camp and react defensively. i like the cheese MM has and idc that ppl hate her. i do care about which has more coaches coaching either rn.

floral carbon
#

:/

floral carbon
craggy plover
#

Min Min Kaz even💔💔

#

Also, Aegis beating Sonic??

crisp cape
# floral carbon Why are we switching so soon

grinded him for 60 hrs no switching. watched all guides and imo got the most i can with him/time, to improve w him ill spend lots more time/improvement. better to learn pyra or MM so i can improve different aspects. cloud helped me learn fundies even tho i lost all games (only play better players) but imo it affects my mental that i always will lose w him (not bad if im learning) but i need to rewire my brain to know that i should be winning too if that makes sense?

crisp cape
floral carbon
floral carbon
#

Tbh cloud is genuinely kinda perfect

#

Loses with 11 even or wins the other 78

crisp cape
#

need underdog’s suggestion first. he scanned all my weaknesses+tendencies and goes in depth

floral carbon
wild minnow
floral carbon
wild minnow
crisp cape
wild minnow
#

I want to cut to the core of the reasoning to make sure I fully understand the intention.

crisp cape
# wild minnow Why is it beneficial?

mythra helps good habit of fast aggro while her slow mo helps my anticipation rather than guess and praying. MM if i want to camp instead of on cloud which is just bad habit for him

wild minnow
#

Why is it beneficial to learn new characters?

crisp cape
#

i’m not doing it just for fun or cause doramigi MM beats sparg0’s consistent cloud, or pyra being the best swordie and is spargo0’s second main if that’s why u think i am. im doing it cause in comp games it’s good for beginners to change what they play cause change is how you develop and i think that uncomfortable feeling that i mentioned to u and h20 in the first sessions using cloud is when i improved the most.

#

@bleak stone am i delusional or this make sense cuz u understood my mindset from the start

wild minnow
#

And to me it sounds more like you're now at the harder parts of cloud

#

That you're trying to find an "easy" way to improve

#

But at the higher levels there are no easy ways to improve

#

The grind is slow

#

Don't try to copycat what you see tourney players doing

#

Find a character you like to use

#

Otherwise you'll be using every character in the top list (that includes Duck Hunt) and you'll only get a general skillset, not a specialised mastery

bleak stone
floral carbon
craggy plover
#

Think they meant Aegis as a whole

floral carbon
#

Right the reason you should stay as cloud is bc he is the best swordie in game. Him, Roy, and aegis pass that title around

floral carbon
craggy plover
#

Ohhhh

floral carbon
#

What do you think Ami?

floral carbon
#

Besides that qt I still think you shouldn’t switch

craggy plover
#

Even the weird moves are pretty good

#

Pyra nair is out forever, and her dair is big enough to kill a country

#

But she's slow

#

Her moves are big, so it's better to do her moves while retreating, like retreating fair or bair

crisp cape
#

surprised there’s 0 coaches for either but there’s 0 cloud coaches rn, it’s just that u 2 play him?

#

imma try both until i got their basics. maybe i’ll learn to improve cloud when i switch back

floral carbon
#

The frame data is kinda bad on shield

#

Double digits on ground, nothing especially safe in the air

crisp cape
#

mythra’s foresight and di air dodge

floral carbon
#

So?

crisp cape
#

cloud doesn’t have fearful threats he can whip out anytime like her side b

floral carbon
#

:/ Alr gng

crisp cape
#

u right that switch is dumb but i think aegis will help fundies and they’re like an amped up version to him

wild minnow
#

I'm not one to criticise character switches (play whoever), but I will remark I'm not sure the switch is being done in good faith

#

I feel like you want to switch because you saw 'cool character doing cool things' and are retroactively trying to justify it as 'they must be better'
Tournament players skillsets are independent of the character they play
A character is just a tool

#

MKLeo's Isabelle is likely going to clock my Duck Hunt any day of the week regardless of how bad Isabelle is as a character

#

Likewise my Duck Hunt is going to beat anyone who uses a character with no skillset basics

#

I think what has happened is you're now at the hard part of the training

#

And are trying to find an 'easy way' to shortcut it by switching to what you think will be an easier character

#

But in reality all you will be doing is re-starting the training from scratch

#

If you want to improve generalised skillsets, play random
If you want to get specialised, you will have to stick with a character

crisp cape
#

valid. remember, i started steve before cloud for 9 hours cause he’s meta but tier lists only relatively matter pro lvl thats why i switch to fundies simple cloud ranked for beginners once i got steve’s gameplan. if i was blinded by these highlights i wouldnt have asked for input so i do appreciate y’alls response

#

i do watch why characters aren’t viable too. i’m not just talking out my ass cause ik time is precious and each character is an investment

wild minnow
#

Maybe, but you're not at those leagues to debate viability on that level

#

Viability boils down to meta discovery

#

And that's GimR lab level shit

#

Whilst I am an advocate someone should use the best tools for whatever job or goal they're trying to achieve, you are essentially trying to determine which, out of a collection of hammers, hammers the best

#

They all hammer; you're not debating mid tier viability

#

If your jump was from, say, Duck Hunt, to, say, Snake, I could get the wish for a tier change

#

But you're basically swapping A and S tiers, and there's honestly not that much difference between them

#

A suitable analogy is, you're trying to determine what military gear best suits a Special Forces stealth mission
When you haven't even left basic recruit training boot camp

#

Ignore the characters

#

Work on you