#04/22/2026 Update Pre-Announcement

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

tacit ivy
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brutal rush sending ciel into the abyss

safe notch
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Well ok its moreso for the skills that send a hitbox out that also gets stuck at walls

tacit ivy
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also demonic rush sending the char backwards 🔥

safe notch
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I understand you cant have a skill that moves your char hitbox 5 miles forward also just move you through where there isnt anywhere to go

tacit ivy
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nvm i forgot demonic ruah got renewed so lu doesnt go flyong everywhere

modern cove
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this feels targeted... i wonder to who

safe notch
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🥀

glass musk
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I mean hey man KR is the test server for NA

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Anyways back on track

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Everything we knew that was gonna happen happened already

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Also very good point^^^

fading snow
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Can we make mirage actually usable peepodepressed

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It got effected by the synergy patch while genuinely being a net negative to use

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I unironically tested it once

glass musk
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The actual character changes idc about I’m very upset that the healer consolidation went through

fading snow
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The run was slower, my damage worse worse, and the support increase wasnt worth the loss

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That is also real, I have just beaten that topic to death already so I figured id yap about something else for a moment

glass musk
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How the director thought that was a good idea is crazy

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I will beat it even more

fading snow
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Fair

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I think they should've like

glass musk
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I know it’s been beaten more than whatever the analogy was

safe notch
fading snow
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Capped it at 2 honestly

glass musk
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But we cannot state enough

fading snow
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If that makes sense

glass musk
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How bad of an idea it was

glass musk
glass musk
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Than 1

safe notch
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I think it was totally fine how it was pre patch

glass musk
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And also gonna say it again

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Ruining each classes identity and their unique traits

safe notch
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Like you alr get diminishing returns for running more and more healers

glass musk
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Healers weren’t an issue at all pre patch

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LOL

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Aside from their dmg being crap

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The only issue was the actual DPS class imbalance

safe notch
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Since you have less dmg to scale your buffs off of

fading snow
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I think it was fine too, but capping it out at 2 both keeps parties comfortable while also keeping their vision/the idea behind the patch

safe notch
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And dps classes alr had some amt of syn too

glass musk
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You have characters like im bq etw running around and then u have achlys

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Tb

fading snow
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Yo some dps classes had more syn than supports

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LOL

glass musk
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I could go on and on

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About all the bad classes

fading snow
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In-kit wise

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ES would match my support on NP lol

glass musk
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Ras identity was her reset and now we just ruin that lol

fading snow
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RV and Aps would outright beat it

safe notch
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xd

glass musk
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I think their vision is flawed

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I think there needs to be a new set of eyes

fading snow
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Yeah I don't think it was a good idea either, I'm just saying if they wanted to hard cap the amount of healers per party they should've kept it to 2 peepodepressed

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Also another fun fact that I believe has been mentioned before but yknow, just in case it hasn't

glass musk
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It also ruins the freedom of party forming

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But what does it matter when all the new content is becoming solo content, lol

fading snow
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Idk if other healers have this issue exactly but

glass musk
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In a game they have made very raid focused

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😂

fading snow
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If I were to solo healer as nyx, there is no way my entire team is getting my heal in 21-4

glass musk
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When the new solo content is raid bosses 🤣🤣

fading snow
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xdddddd

glass musk
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SU too

fading snow
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Not enough range to solo heal specifically there

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Im sure there's other times too where heal range will be an issue, 21-4 p1 is just the most glaring one

fading snow
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It was fun

safe notch
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Yea we also just straight up remove class identity

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Which is kinda boring for an mmo

fading snow
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Well tbh it was fun when it was 3, it kinda felt brainless already at 2 esp when I could keep up with other healers while dpsing and not even focusing on my heal

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Where's skyress's essay on bl again

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Def the biggest example

glass musk
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Why are we destroying class identity

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Of all the healers having unique mechanics

safe notch
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Classes having more syn is kinda also part of their identity which I'm sad to see removed

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Before you could argue smth like

fading snow
safe notch
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Oh i wanna play mc cuz she does more dmg than ac

glass musk
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In general this game is so unique and all the characters have such fun unique mechanics but like

fading snow
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I think its sad peepodepressed

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I also think

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Hot take

glass musk
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Why are we getting rid of what makes elsword unique

safe notch
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But i also wanna play ac cuz she has way more pty syn

glass musk
fading snow
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Certain class' synergy was directly part of their identity and standardizing that kinda kills their identity too

safe notch
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But now it's strictly just

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Play whoever does more dmg

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Lmao...

safe notch
fading snow
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Another rly big example

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There's legit

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No reason to play aps or ac now

safe notch
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Also despite the unification of phys mag buffs being all round p good

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It does introduce an issue of

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Theres just too many classes now

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Before you could argue 'i wanna play rm because i need a mag dps'

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But why wouldnt you just play im post patch

fading snow
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'Cause hes ugly >:T

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Joking

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Jokes aside, it's kinda awkward yeah like...

glass musk
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true

fading snow
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The only reason left to play not the most meta pick for ur char is if u just really like the class I guess

safe notch
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Pre patch only a few chars really had this issue

fading snow
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Cant even say well rm gives more synergy than im

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'Cause he doesnt rly anymore

safe notch
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Post patch its literally every char

glass musk
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Why would I play es when I can play bq lol

safe notch
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Idk

fading snow
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I think it'd be one thing if they did phys mag all hybrid but kept syn dpses the same

safe notch
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Removing attack type buffs and then removing syn differences just makes it impossible to justify 2-3 classes on every char from a meta standpoint

fading snow
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So you can play x class for synergy reasons

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Me when Elesis and Elboy get hit with the "why play any path thats not BQ IM" 'cause all 4 are dps

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And in direct competition with each other so from a meta standpoint there's absolutely no reason to not play BQ IM unless u just subjectively like a different path

safe notch
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Pre patch no matter how cope i could justify ce vs ca due to a diff in syn

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Now its just

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Why play ce

fading snow
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I could justify playing lib 'cause there was no other phys dps noah but now there's literally no reason to not play mo instead PensiveBlob

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cl at least has a decent amount of synergy still but thats different

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Except im still gonna cope on lib 'cause im not running two mos

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LOL

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I think genuinely any char that doesnt have a healer is just... there's no reason to not play the best one

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This kinda design philosophy only has a chance of working if every class was balanced to perfection so you could decide solely based on what you want in a character

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But they're not, so the execution falls short

safe notch
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Also just to clarify this isnt a call to bring back phys mag split

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Its just that i think we should bring back syn classes

fading snow
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Yeye

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Def agree keeping things hybrid is good but just deleting class identity is not

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Even laby despite how good TP and NL are, there is genuinely no reason at all to not play EtW

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'Cause of how the design is rn

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Previously u could argue Nisha for like cd/synergy reasons compared to etw but now its just

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The list goes on with every character now

safe notch
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Not really much reason to play anything else

fading snow
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I could see arguments for MN over PO but yeah pretty much lol

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And very specifically PR because for some reason she still gets to have higher synergy than every healer

stoic sluice
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ig TP and GB also are up there
mayyybe FP

fading snow
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Unfortunately no, due to the way they've balanced it now there is no reason to play those

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Even though theyre good still, when class identity is dead except for a few exceptions its literally just about what is best

stoic sluice
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I would say ETW and TP are at similar power levels

fading snow
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I would not

stoic sluice
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same with GB/MC

fading snow
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TP is strong but not 100% ignore for free with 0 downsides strong

stoic sluice
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the only eception is that ETW is better in high def content

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like cmode/henir

tacit ivy
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pretty sure gb just suffers 0 mp condition

wise badger
stoic sluice
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just get a BL ez

fading snow
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I think TP wins in small bossing specifically (assuming no wall) though

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EtW with a wall still wins in small over TP i think

wraith mica
fading snow
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Yo zun you were the ES and you were either beating or matching me every time

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Except one very specific 21-4-1 wipe

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Wdymmmm

safe notch
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Gb has no mp and is going to fall off that way

wraith mica
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Oh wait that party where I was last invited so I got crit damage top inflation

safe notch
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Tp is strictly worse than etw asides from small non wall stacked bosses

wraith mica
safe notch
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Which dont really exist in this game

modern cove
tacit ivy
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i swear i heard most of the complaints from kr from gb and 1 other mp chugger

fading snow
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Yeah mp hungry classes vs 1 healer

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Final boss fight go

tacit ivy
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or im just delulu

safe notch
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Actually im not sure how dab will be after patch either since she goes through mp like crazy too

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Might be playable at 550 tho

modern cove
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maybe the patch wouldnt have gone so bad if half of the changes to the dpses weren't literally nothing burger changes that dont address any of their core issues that having a healer fixes

tacit ivy
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LuHmmShimo aren't kr gb's all 550 /s

fading snow
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Rena is a funny one 'cause I can genuinely see arguments for AN, DaB, and PR

safe notch
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Yea but gb cycles 3 braves

modern cove
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yes but the problem GB has is just volume of skills

safe notch
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Most other similar classes of similar kind dont cycle 3 braves

modern cove
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shes pressing braveries back to back to back to back only pausing to maybe press power stone

safe notch
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Dab for example is

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Brave str active

modern cove
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the main issue i have with the patch will simply be if ur gonna nuke the healers to one per pt then why do the dpses not function at a baseline with one healer in the pt

safe notch
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Idk theres so many problems in this patch

fading snow
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Yeah thats one of many things where I'm like

safe notch
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Which btw we pinpointed day 1

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And none of them were fixed

fading snow
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I can see the vision, but the execution is kinda awful ngl

modern cove
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you've created an issue of needing pots to function and pots have cds, healers fix that issue and classes now dont have the ability to gain resources bc youve gimped them from having a second healer

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i mean to me the logic is just

safe notch
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Also you need pots to use flow

modern cove
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why change healers that way in the first place

safe notch
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xd

fading snow
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Yeah I agree

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I think the patch would've been fine if they literally just

modern cove
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like what actually caused the change that u felt it was necessary

fading snow
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Made everything hybrid and did NOTHING ELSE

modern cove
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u couldve shot all the syn dpses debuff/buff values if u wanted to make clearing harder ig

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bc syn dpses didnt. get anything really lmao

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like what was the breaking point for this change

fading snow
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Me when balance isnt equal and some syn dps got good things to compensate and others are just bad

safe notch
fading snow
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Me too!

wraith mica
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What Aps players lol

chilly minnow
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Look how far aps has fallen xd

fading snow
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Just 1.5 left that i know of

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Also very excited for the AC players

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There's at least 4 of them

safe notch
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Ngl it may be time for the green aps to come out the woodworks

chilly minnow
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you

safe notch
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👍

chilly minnow
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need to stop

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Why take green aps when you can get green healer

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like aps loses either way

wraith mica
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Cuz the healer would deal more damage on a dps exa lol

chilly minnow
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You might as well put aps on sup tene and get inf more value

safe notch
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Idk this patch is just so cope bro

chilly minnow
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Do you play the t0 path of your class

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if not

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here's a jc

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:>

safe notch
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My char has no t0

chilly minnow
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T0 relative to your class paths

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yea like noah has no t0 either

safe notch
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🥀

chilly minnow
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Highkey cl may be the t0 class of noah ngl, need to see how much syn value cl gives post patch

safe notch
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Its like

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At best

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8% more than mo

chilly minnow
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its hard to tell

safe notch
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Syn values range from roughly 19.5-31%

glass musk
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How old are CL and Mo?

chilly minnow
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since the damage of MO can just straight up eclipse the syn depending on how it feels

chilly minnow
glass musk
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I’d say play the younger one 👍

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What

safe notch
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18 15

chilly minnow
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YOu need to be locked up

glass musk
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Anyways

safe notch
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I think

wise badger
safe notch
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Yea like

chilly minnow
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Hear me out

safe notch
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Idt cl is allat ngl

chilly minnow
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Earth is calling

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sorry

wise badger
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NO

safe notch
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Asides from in 21-5

wise badger
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YOU KNOW WHAT SUCKS

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SOMEONE TRIED TO CONVINCE ME

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EARTH CL

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I WAS HAVING A MELTDOWN

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:)

chilly minnow
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Wait doesnt ziro play earth tp

glass musk
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Ew

chilly minnow
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I mean

safe notch
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Hey hey

chilly minnow
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its a path

safe notch
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I did the math for you be happy

wise badger
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I love Earth that buffs neither my Scorpio, HA and MC dmg!!!!

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:)

chilly minnow
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but your uptime on HA is better

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👍

wise badger
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:^)

safe notch
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I cant believe my pty gets like

wise badger
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that assumes I press it off CD too

safe notch
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Avg +1.5% more dmg

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Crazy

chilly minnow
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🔥

craggy mortar
safe notch
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REAL

chilly minnow
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waiot but like

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red bl cooks

safe notch
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Except you're still forced to blume

chilly minnow
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yea but your damage output is highkey insane

craggy mortar
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it's ok i smash blume on cd anyway for cd reduction on yellow

safe notch
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Is everything still on blume

craggy mortar
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no everything's on windhose now

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only blume rein has heal

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that's it

safe notch
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Oh

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Oh

craggy mortar
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melodie shield

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3 button class

safe notch
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Hf mashing uh

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Alchimie

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Ig

craggy mortar
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i already do

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for colors

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so used to eid skill eid skill eid skill

chilly minnow
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wait highkey the only way to take 2 healers is force one to dps and the other as green

craggy mortar
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still not worth it

chilly minnow
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Yea its not

craggy mortar
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take an actual dps class and they'll still do more

safe notch
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You'd need some crazy dmg from that healer ngl

chilly minnow
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but its the only compromise if you dont want to jc your class

craggy mortar
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personally i'm just not going to party content on my bl anymore and if i do spirit temple i don't think we need green+wall anymore

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rein fight so dps will get heal at least

chilly minnow
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Yea I'm also thinking of jcing my nyx to cl tbf

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unless cl somehow becomes god after patch

safe notch
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Yk what i cant wait for?

chilly minnow
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then I have to really sit down and think

safe notch
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Sitting in pf for temple for 3h staring at like 15 rando healers applying

scenic skiffBOT
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charlie238 has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

chilly minnow
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xd

safe notch
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Wow he said a bad word

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Ban neow

chilly minnow
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mb guys

wraith mica
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All with 8% ASD and 6% action speed

safe notch
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!

wraith mica
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🥀

wise badger
chilly minnow
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no I dont

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I also dont have the frames to play cl tbf

wise badger
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only thing I know is that KR CL players are annoyed with the changes

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cause he still has to press a billion buttons to amp his party

chilly minnow
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I mean thats whatever

safe notch
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Didnt they lower aqua to 7

wise badger
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meanwhile other classes

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press 1

wise badger
chilly minnow
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isnt arcana a cycle skill anyways

safe notch
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So 2 quick strike

chilly minnow
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so its build in

wise badger
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so bare minimum is still 2x QuickStrike 1x Nebula 1x Horary 1x Luminary

chilly minnow
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built*

wise badger
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or in cases of Doom

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after every mech cause mechs are long enough for aqua to wear off

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:^)

safe notch
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Wouldnt you just pref to click your dps skills

chilly minnow
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I mean thats no differnet than nyx tbf

wise badger
safe notch
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Than cycle arcana if it didn't do anything

chilly minnow
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Honestly if you're geared enough, isn't actually more valuable to just dps over keeping maximum value on buffs

wise badger
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ah

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ye

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you never press QuickStrike outside of aqua generation

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pressing it is always just a massive DPS loss

chilly minnow
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like if everyone is 10 stacks atp you would only cycle nebula no?

wise badger
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ye

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and horary whenever it's up

wise badger
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I love having to either have a perfect timer in my head for horary or gamble it xd

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(or have HA up)

safe notch
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Or use a timer on another screen

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For horary

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Which people act do

wise badger
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I used to do that

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3 years ago

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😂

safe notch
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🥀

wise badger
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but I couldn't bother anymore

safe notch
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Ik a lot of people did that on cl release

wise badger
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I genuinely don't know why there is no indicator for it

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afaik it's the only skill with that issue

safe notch
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I mean

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Its the only skill thats effect changes

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Depending on time

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🥀

chilly minnow
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Just have it be highlighted the color its on atm

wise badger
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they could just take the skill icon Horary and make the respective mode colour pop up

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or give it a border

chilly minnow
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like we can do that with counter wave and elesis

safe notch
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Yea that would be interesting

chilly minnow
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why cant horary have a border

safe notch
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Idk im p sure they alr rejected the idea

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At some point

wise badger
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sadge

chilly minnow
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It's just really stinky

wise badger
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not like having that feature would greatly improve the uptime 💀

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it would still be like 75% uptime or so at most

chilly minnow
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better than gambling

wise badger
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just more comfort

wraith mica
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I mean this patch shows KoG doesn’t care about what their player base wants so prob shouldn’t expect to ever get it at this point

safe notch
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True

chilly minnow
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QoL, but only for certain classes. Like gg

safe notch
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You can forward however much but it really only matters if the higher ups care enough to hear it out ig

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🥀

wise badger
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also back to the point, honestly it's hard to tell how mcCL is after patch. He's definitely not part of the bad syn DPS, but definitely not part of the godlike ones either. Looking at the changes I THINK he will be in a good spot but I can't tell how much the dmg buffs compensate his synergy nerf

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will have to test that out next week

wraith mica
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Or better yet, CL players complaining about not knowing when to press Horary? No problem, just remove the synergy on it and not add it anywhere else in their kit 👍

wise badger
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+8% boss dmg, +12% Horoscope skill damage, 40% ignore on DarkMoon and a bit of a dmg increase on it too

safe notch
wise badger
wraith mica
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In return he gets a 0.1% DPS increase

wise badger
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(idk what the Horary dmg buff is supposed to do 💀 )

safe notch
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Back to purple horary stacking meta

wise badger
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that's like the only use case ye dumbdumb

safe notch
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3 hits of 100% ignore was kinda wild

wise badger
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I mean it's still pretty good

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17.7k with 100% ignore

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that will be 22.1k post patch

safe notch
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Yea but it was almost 27k initially iirc + better passives and buffs

wise badger
modern cove
ripe tapir
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the… official sitw suggestion board

ripe tapir
ripe tapir
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whoever tried to tell you that, give them a clown nose

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also he performs worse in HE than Nyx as far as I recall

scarlet quest
ripe tapir
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I digress

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crux of the situation is no one liked how they handled the supports

scarlet quest
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Yea they supposedly made every healer "equal" and proceeded to give super armor to 2 classes and no other healers

ripe tapir
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don't forget special resource recovery

scarlet quest
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And then there are healers who only got sot when

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You can just run 3rd path syn

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Lmao

ripe tapir
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just combine sot and special resource recovery into their mc skill

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ha/mc cda is whatever, you can repurpose it or keep it there as well

scarlet quest
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Some classes do benefit from it but yea its the same situation still

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DA and Su gets the most versatile and wanted qol while the others not so much

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They tried to reduce the gap between different healers and instead they just made it worse

ripe tapir
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RaS and DeM are literally eating rocks lmao

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BL is close behind DA and SU but thats purely because he lacks party wide SA

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so if a SU and BL applied you'd obviously pick the SU

craggy mortar
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i think level of investment is going to be important too. no more tene support alt healers

ripe tapir
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that too

craggy mortar
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though i honestly feel like with the huge changes to healers, a lot of people are just going to quit their healers entirely..

ripe tapir
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so if SU has Tene and BL has Exa (decently built to match Tene) then you bite the bullet and take the BL and invest in apples

craggy mortar
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huge stress to be solo healer + might be yelled at + heavy amounts of investment

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if you're going to put that much effort into invested exa, might as well be a dps

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honestly if i use pf, i'd check their erp + cp, then check if they have wall equipped and then any kind of support gear tbh

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a lot of players who don't know what they're doing and end up being deadweight anyway even if their class is good

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solo healer = expectations are higher for that solo healer, i feel like with na's lack of population in general we might not even care what class the healer plays if they're roughly the same

fading snow
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And I know im not the only one

velvet raven
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I cant wait for the heavy healer background checks people are gonna do

wise badger
steady meadow
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Can we just buff the mp recovery on healers too

wise badger
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The other 5 though? Yikes

wise badger
gritty zealot
steady meadow
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Dang

gritty zealot
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LF> DA/SU

safe notch
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Gonna need a 15 page resume of your achievements and 5 rounds of interviews ngl

velvet raven
kind fulcrum
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All the casual healer mains will have to quit the game deadge

hearty sky
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I finally get to be free and touch grass lol

fading snow
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Might not be real

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even those 3 wont save some classes tho

wise badger
fading snow
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True even tho theirs is niche(for like 3 classes) but hey

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Being useful for 3 classes is better than 0

ripe tapir
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Dem is eating coal

craggy mortar
ripe tapir
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there was another one I think

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lemme find it

craggy mortar
#

DA SU and Ras

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is what they prefer

ripe tapir
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RaS still has her reset

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BL population is extinct so it makes sense for him to not be there

craggy mortar
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i see da su ras mentioned in a list all the time

ripe tapir
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RaS is for Magma Breath

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her exp farm niche

craggy mortar
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erp farm is the endgame after all

ripe tapir
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their last point being about challenge mode is funny

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they really didn't think of that

ripe tapir
#

I hate erp farm with a passion

craggy mortar
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thousand = SU, di/dia = DA, ra/laso = ras

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kr players like erp farming a lot

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and im in the camp where doom is getting to a point where its not really endgame anymore

ripe tapir
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I don't like google tl myself personally

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lemme skim it

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same healer complaint

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fake standardization, clear favorites

craggy mortar
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yup

#

at least kill ras's cooldown reset if you were killing all of it

ripe tapir
#

the link I posted said the same thing but told kog to give every support party wide super armor and special resource recovery

craggy mortar
#

yea

#

and speeds would be nice too

ripe tapir
#

speeds too

craggy mortar
#

some of them dont have move/jump speed

#

but then they risk overtuning healers

ripe tapir
#

with the 1 healer patch they have to though xD

craggy mortar
#

they already benefit a lot from their own personal buffs in solo

#

have to remember high entropy is a thing now

#

healers already have an advantage in some fights cuz of cleanse

ripe tapir
#

doesn't invalidate the argument that all supports should bring the vital buffs like all other supports

#

good luck getting accepted as Nyx in this economy

craggy mortar
#

imo i think they should just kill super armor as a support buff

ripe tapir
#

no, friend party doesn't count

fading snow
#

Do what I do, jc xdddd

#

Half joking

craggy mortar
#

no one gives super armor, then it'd be balanced

#

everyone should just pay up for gsas

ripe tapir
#

but supports already use apples for extra tank

#

no point lo

craggy mortar
#

no they dont lmao

fading snow
ripe tapir
#

chat I smell someone who didn't see that from other supports

craggy mortar
#

nothing really hurts that much to need it anymore

ripe tapir
#

or alt supports for that matter

#

all in all

#

that idea is horrible

#

I rather have every support give super armor

craggy mortar
#

no ive had s6 counts killed cuz people dont run gsa

#

so yea nah.

ripe tapir
#

overtuning in my mmo game...

fading snow
#

I think they should all in either or. Having super armor be locked to two supports makes a clear divide as that's easily the best unique effect among all the supports

craggy mortar
#

then they should give everyone (not just supports) baked in super armor, no?

ripe tapir
#

mischief does, gembliss got hers yoinked, the Elboys do, I think Elesis too

#

thats just the ones I can think off the top of my head

craggy mortar
#

like why does only half the chars get free superarmor and the other half have to suck it up or use bulky juice/gsa

fading snow
craggy mortar
#

oh they all got super armor removed?

fading snow
#

No they still have it

craggy mortar
#

oh okay

#

i know dia and 3/4 of the chungs also have superarmor

ripe tapir
#

mount mode

fading snow
#

Cata too

ripe tapir
#

but sure since they're in there 90% of the time

fading snow
#

Iirc still has it

ripe tapir
#

idm if all of them would get super armor

fading snow
#

And its global + for the entire team

scenic skiffBOT
#
amerih has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

ripe tapir
#

slow delete mee6

craggy mortar
#

i think all classes should get superarmor

ripe tapir
#

we all know kog doesn want that

wise badger
craggy mortar
#

i think a lot of dps classes should also get some speed buffs too

ripe tapir
#

^

wise badger
velvet raven
fading snow
#

Fair but still cope

wise badger
#

I liked mcCaT ...

fading snow
#

I liked cata too peepodepressed

ripe tapir
#

just actually equalize supports man

fading snow
ripe tapir
#

its ain't that hard

craggy mortar
#

equalize support and also equalize non-damage party buffs on dps too

fading snow
#

And among that half there's still only two that are clearly above the others

velvet raven
wise badger
#

👁️ 👄 👁️

craggy mortar
#

like its always a weird advantage for some dps classes to have damage reduction buffs. they can help early clears tank better

wise badger
velvet raven
velvet raven
#

💀✌🏾

fading snow
wise badger
#

1 > 0 💀

#

1 dmg is more than 0 cause she can't cast anything dumbdumb

velvet raven
#

Then jc

ripe tapir
velvet raven
#

Cuz thats all this patch is

#

A jc fest

fading snow
wise badger
#

is there even any character that does NOT have a clear outlier in terms of who's the best DPS after patch thonk

velvet raven
#

No more RG for the party guys

#

GB found in the waffle house dumpster

ripe tapir
craggy mortar
#

tbh i think hr and opf can be comparable

velvet raven
#

Looking for mp atk scraps

craggy mortar
#

opf if you want to erp farm more

#

hr if you like the big bossing

wise badger
#

🙁

velvet raven
#

Time to give GB vow and trolly so she can be half as effective as my 20 yr old toaster

#

💀✌🏾

craggy mortar
#

id go opf to relax my hands probably cuz hr is kind of a pain in easy content

velvet raven
ripe tapir
#

yknow

#

I‘ve been around the game since its korean launch

fading snow
ripe tapir
#

I never thought

#

they‘d make a patch more tone deaf

#

than the season 2 skill tree

velvet raven
#

🔥

fading snow
#

Raven depends on boss size and Rena I think AN and DaB both have rly solid arguments

#

Iirc

craggy mortar
#

they really listened to the guys who hated people getting free lunch (bare minimum support farmers)

velvet raven
ripe tapir
#

EtW Kapow Punch surviving all the nerfquakes will never not be funny to me

fading snow
#

I dont think FB is gonna mog NI vs a big boss unless he got a massive buff im unaware of hmmge

velvet raven
#

Ni needs to bigboss and rh still lives in low% hell

craggy mortar
#

i think RV is a good contender now, no?

velvet raven
velvet raven
craggy mortar
#

saw an FB jc to RV and his times were really similar in HE

velvet raven
#

The cda was a big help to fb

fading snow
#

RV isnt best in raw damage but somehow hes one of the few thats still a synergy dps

#

Based on one of the few charts ive seen with him

ripe tapir
#

deviantart edgelord lives again

velvet raven
#

Psure they made catacomb self chat its so chopped

steady meadow
wise badger
fading snow
#

21-2 is such a specific size

wise badger
fading snow
#

Its the one post patch with lib and cl too

#

You probably remember the one im referring to

wise badger
velvet raven
wise badger
#

the mcRV change was in the 3rd one

fading snow
#

Gotcha

craggy mortar
steady meadow
#

Yea it was jusy the 2nd patch that someone in kr did it on the test server, swapped to all ravens (cause free jc) and all ravens had just similar times

craggy mortar
#

i think you can assume rv and opf have similar gear here and the rest is a bit behind

velvet raven
#

Fb still has some edge over rv atm based on the charts ive seen

wise badger
velvet raven
#

Think i still have one or 2

wise badger
#

considering the mcRH in my static deals pretty good dmg

#

cough

velvet raven
#

Need to go find it

wise badger
#

@steady meadow

craggy mortar
#

for 4 and 5

fading snow
#

I'd trust that drago guy with my life

steady meadow
#

Nah im weak dawg

wise badger
#

shut up

#

I outgear you

velvet raven
wise badger
#

and you outdeal me

velvet raven
#

✌🏾

ripe tapir
#

pilot issue

steady meadow
#

Me when i match CL in 21-5 in his own dungeon

velvet raven
#

💀✌🏾

steady meadow
#

And cl has better gear than me

wise badger
#

only in 21-5 I mog him

velvet raven
#

Mod 7b does go crazy in dragon

craggy mortar
#

cl is a syn dps though

wise badger
#

WHILE I OUTGEAR HIM

craggy mortar
#

my hr matches / outdeals a 12 cl too

fading snow
#

Pretty hot

craggy mortar
#

well i think i matched when i was dogmaless

steady meadow
#

I did like 3x CLs dmg in 21-3 and CL only does slightly more in 21-5 when he has like a good idk 10% more than me in dmg

craggy mortar
#

cl just buffs other classes too much to beat them

#

its the fate of synergy dps

velvet raven
#

✌🏾

fading snow
craggy mortar
#

yea

ripe tapir
wise badger
#

should only compare to people with same gear

craggy mortar
#

so cl literally buffs like half your damage

fading snow
steady meadow
wise badger
#

:3c

velvet raven
#

🔥

fading snow
#

Oh I agree rh isnt bad I just think matching cl in his best dungeon isnt fully accurate either

wise badger
velvet raven
#

Is +8 good enough?

#

🤔

craggy mortar
#

no... cuz 9 vs 10 cont is 2.5cont dmg

#

thats a lot

velvet raven
#

I still win these

craggy mortar
#

8v10 is like 4% cont dmg diff

#

but yea in my static i match the rh in his best dungeon so like..

#

erm...

#

(rh crashout

steady meadow
wise badger
#

that will be a funny experiment

fading snow
wise badger
#

cause according to some people in this thread "running unoptimal parties is not as bad as we make it out to be"

fading snow
#

Why do i know all 2 of the rhs

#

LOL

craggy mortar
#

😭

#

yea i kind of get comments about it nonstop

velvet raven
#

Im never matched in my best dungeon (doesnt have one)

craggy mortar
#

we're both 11s too

fading snow
velvet raven
#

Actually nvm i have 1 good dungeon (its c15-6-1 who coulda seen that coming)

#

Still gets moged by EtW and IM

#

Especially since phy mag racism ends

wise badger
#

oh right, with the phy/mag unification I won't have to hear people complain that "phy/mag is stronger than mag/phy" anymore bceLazyFlop

#

or at least we'll finally see if "dmg type X has better DPS than dmg type Y"

finite furnace
#

Op char mains cry about even more op chara

velvet raven
wise badger
#

you doompost regardless

velvet raven
#

Just makes it easier

finite furnace
#

Xen did u clear entropy

fading snow
#

Now its gonna be phys AND mag complaining about EtW IM

velvet raven
wise badger
finite furnace
#

BQ 👀

#

Great minds think alike lol

wise badger
#

and mcFP, he won't get away either, 90% ignore goofy class

velvet raven
#

So surely shes still bad

wise badger
velvet raven
fading snow
#

Fair on bq, I think those 3 mog fp though

wise badger
#

all the sub 10 speedruns I see ALWAYS have a mcBQ in it

finite furnace
#

Even kr accepted bq is op

wise badger
#

heck KR is even running 3 mcBQ 21-4 comps

fading snow
#

Not super big mog but stull theyre better

finite furnace
#

I mean u re comparing 3 god to a demigod

wise badger
fading snow
velvet raven
#

Im so real sub 10s are so easy without these top chars

finite furnace
#

It doesnt make fp weak

wise badger
fading snow
#

Oh I never said it does, I was just saying hes not in the same paying field as those 3 and probs wont be complained about as much as them

velvet raven
fading snow
#

Doesn't mean hes weak, just means those 3 are absurdly strong

#

Still

wise badger
velvet raven
#

Hes the mc he hasta be

finite furnace
#

Yeah I mean bq etw im is just absurd

fading snow
#

Yeah

#

Insane that they basically escaped nerfs

velvet raven
#

Doesnt explain why mn oz and inno mogs fp in charts tho

#

🤣

fading snow
#

The rly rly tiny % nerf on kapow isnt real

finite furnace
#

They dodge nerfs better than kog dodges good patches ngl

wise badger
#

me when they nerfed mcEtW numbers but because we lost like 50%+ shred in the upcoming patch it ends up being a mcEtW buff patch cause she relies way less on shred

#

:)

#

same with mcIM

finite furnace
#

Just remove def from game CoolDesu

velvet raven
#

They cant

#

Cuz dmg red would go unchecked

finite furnace
wise badger
#

I liked the one suggestion in the other thread where they suggest to cap ignore at 50-60%

#

which honestly would be fair

finite furnace
#

Yeah thats valid

sleek spoke
#

def ignore should not be a thing imo, some classes are marginally better than others just because they have def ignore

finite furnace
#

Its understandable some chars depend on def ignore and some depends on high % but 100% def ignore or close to this is just not healthy

scarlet quest
#

it's just more apparent due to the fact that the end game content right now is...

#

HE

velvet raven
#

And the thing is when def is shredded by wall and wind and water ele it makes having so much ignore effectively triple its dmg

sleek spoke
#

what happened to just increasing hp instead of putting blanket "solutions" like three gazillion defense

scarlet quest
#

it is also gonna be more of a problem when 1 healer + synergy patch hits

fading snow
velvet raven
#

✌🏾

scarlet quest
#

i think the problem with challenge is hyper armor

velvet raven
fading snow
#

why do u think i said was

#

LOL

#

im saying the high def and hyper armor in certain endgame metas mattered more than being party content

scarlet quest
#

im assuming shreds debuffs work on the enemy 😔

velvet raven
#

I think the prob with chall is it stopped being a chall and they made it easier again💀✌🏾

scarlet quest
#

if there was 0 hyper armor the def wouldn't have mattered

steady meadow
#

Your best dungeon is every dungeon

scarlet quest
#

at all

velvet raven
#

Like the chall should scale with current content

fading snow
#

example serp and doom it didnt matter 'cause there was little hyper armor and low def%

#

meanwhile abyss release as another example, high def ignore classes and shred classes were really strong not 'cause of hyper armor but 'cause that had 96% def on release

finite furnace
#

I mean challange stops being challange when u let players grow with new gears. Some games makes challange fixed gears or stats to keep challanges as challanges

scarlet quest
#

yea abyss release there were way less methods of shreding the boss defense

velvet raven
sleek spoke
#

im so jealous of IM and ETW man they have it so easy, you can play while eating McDonalds with no focus and you'd be out-dps'ing +12's

scarlet quest
#

right now there is almost way too much

fading snow
#

yeah that too

#

no wall back then u had to cope with reaper and elrianode shred shoes

#

LOL

#

i still have a super old shred shoe like that

velvet raven
#

Fireworks

#

✌🏾

scarlet quest
#

also 4 man means you generally have less shred in the party

fading snow
#

yeah

finite furnace
#

Isnt still that absurdly hard elrianode shoes strat better than wall?

fading snow
#

but i also think

velvet raven
fading snow
#

if doom had 96% def upon release like abyss did, it definitely would've been an ignore/shred class diff despite our current ways to shred

finite furnace
#

I meaaaaan shred still diffs in doom

velvet raven
sleek spoke
#

shred class diffs everything anyway, they're simply just better

velvet raven
#

Its more effective of a change than def

fading snow
#

so its kinda several things rather than just party content making shred not as much of an issue is all im saying worrythink

velvet raven
#

Now we get 15% from one source and wall✌🏾

#

Have fun guys

scarlet quest
#

yea i guess so but it doesn't change the fact that the issue is more apparent because the endgame content is HE

fading snow
#

oh yeah no absolutely

#

i agree there

#

etw moment

finite furnace
#

HE as content is stupid in a game which has healer classes

sleek spoke
#

i hate HE

#

but raiden said that this isnt the thread for that so

fading snow
#

i think HE can be discussed in relation to the patch

craggy mortar
#

unironically excited to do HE as a healer post patch cuz i can just tank the hell out of everything with heal and cleanse

velvet raven
#

HE should have been duo content from the start but thats enough from that

scarlet quest
#

I think as long as it is related to the balance patch it's fine

fading snow
#

its that the previous HE discussions were off topic of the patch

finite furnace
#

Dpses compare like oh I cleared in 30m-40m while avg in end game spends 1 and half hour

fading snow
#

yeah that like pia said too

sleek spoke
#

ahh gotchas

finite furnace
#

Ah aite

scarlet quest
#

cuz HE is something that balance patch should also consider

#

when it's the endgame content of the game rn

sleek spoke
#

didnt it get nerfed in KR?

velvet raven
#

1dps 1 heal is perfect balance imo

craggy mortar
#

spend a bit longer to clear but aside from a few spooks the rest of the fights felt way safer

#

as a healer

finite furnace
#

Yeah duo d be so sweet and more fun

fading snow
#

i believe HE is already influencing balance too

velvet raven
#

2 dpses for fast runs 1 dps 1 heal for comfortable runs

#

Sounds fine enough

sleek spoke
#

allows you to just hangout with a guildmate or something

fading snow
#

duo HE would be so hot

#

omg

craggy mortar
#

they did do one duo content before i kind of enjoyed it

finite furnace
#

GB d like healer and dpses with self heal can choose to run 2 dps

sleek spoke
#

im ngl i really really do not like the direction this game is going with solo endgame content

craggy mortar
#

if only it wasnt (elevator music) the whole time

finite furnace
#

I mean this whole patch looks fine when u remove healer changes

sleek spoke
#

solo content is fine but they're literally making it the endgame standard and its very frustrating

finite furnace
#

We were waiting for long time for phy mag racism

sleek spoke
#

like i wanna play with my friends man

velvet raven
#

It should never be an option

craggy mortar
#

s6 kind of pushing me to the side of solo content ngl

finite furnace
#

Solo content should be optional and for things like farms

#

Exp farm can be solo

#

End game content and raids shouldn't be solo

fading snow
#

s6 runs are quite the experience

velvet raven
#

Cuz they tried balancing chars in a way based on how they functioned alone when the point is to provide for a party

craggy mortar
#

id rather solo and be accountable for myself and only myself rather than hope someone doesnt lose a screw during an s6 run

fading snow
#

im gonna have to do it again but on lib in some weeks peepodepressed

#

totally not looking forward to it

sleek spoke
#

congrats you cleared dragon without dying once here have one(1) visual change of one attack that does 9 damage KEKW

finite furnace
velvet raven
#

Now we have chars that are solid by themselves so whats the need for a party besides mechs

craggy mortar
#

ive done three and ive learned to only really trust certain people for it

craggy mortar
velvet raven
#

Took the mmo outta a mmo

fading snow
#

ive done one myself however i have helped with enough s6 runs post being done to say ive done 3 probably

craggy mortar
#

most of my s6 runs have been my speedruns though

fading snow
#

i think u were there for a couple of them

craggy mortar
#

when people dont start trying to fight for mvp

#

yaya :3

scarlet quest
#

I just got it through my weekly runs

sleek spoke
#

if you kill the boss fast enough it cant kill you Smugnia

scarlet quest
#

I didn't really care about my s6

fading snow
scarlet quest
#

my static members are good enough I trust them

fading snow
#

i had a party that did that

#

except we had to wait like

#

2 months

craggy mortar
#

im just a completionist

fading snow
#

LOL

craggy mortar
#

so if i get s6 on one char, i want it on all four

fading snow
#

and then eventually we locked in enough to get s6 for the other person

finite furnace
#

I mean my static is pretty much uhhh cursed

scarlet quest
#

I think it also took me like a month and a half

#

xd

fading snow
#

i tend to be a completionist too so since i already have it on my main im def gonna try for it on lib too

craggy mortar
#

i think it took me like 2-3 weeks each

finite furnace
#

U need 3 no death clear for s6?

fading snow
#

my nyx's s6 took me like 2 days but i got lucky and found other trustworthy people who also needed s6

craggy mortar
#

just a few crashouts the rest people were doing their best & got unlucky

scarlet quest
#

2

fading snow
scarlet quest
#

for each dungeon

finite furnace
#

Aite

velvet raven
#

Wheres my count

finite furnace
#

Does it need to be in a row

fading snow
#

no

craggy mortar
#

nope

finite furnace
#

Or no dead through 1-5

velvet raven
finite furnace
#

Ah

#

Sounds easier than I imagined

scarlet quest
craggy mortar
#

just per dungeon. you can do 4 and 5 counts separately

fading snow
#

clear 21-4 2x with no deaths | clear 21-5 2x with no deaths

#

is the entire requirement

#

and can be done separately

scarlet quest
#

no one cares about ur s6 count

craggy mortar
#

its just 21-4 is the harder one

velvet raven
velvet raven
craggy mortar
#

cuz people can freakout during numeral safespots or lasers

velvet raven
#

Maaaan

craggy mortar
#

the nerves can get to you

velvet raven
#

Im wearing hp wep

modern cove
sleek spoke
#

i always pray for the safe spot to be close to me

fading snow
#

numerals only scares me when someone messes up

finite furnace
fading snow
#

or myself

finite furnace
#

Cant end on 3 res

fading snow
#

one time i typed wrong, fixed my typing, and self combined and i have never felt my heart moving so fast

craggy mortar
#

yea...

#

on one hand its easy to get if you're used to playing safe but on the other hand (torture labyrinth when no one else is)

finite furnace
#

Ace u d have heart attack in my static

craggy mortar
#

idk how its going to be like after balance patch

finite furnace
#

We shall see

craggy mortar
#

opf gets s5 this week, unsure if i should just rush the s6 while we can still have two healers in party

#

or three even

wise badger
#

I feel like they will nerf Stage requirements for UDW this summer (weapon is already 1.5 years old by that point) so maybe St 6 will be changed to self only

finite furnace
#

I m just wondering what we'll get for summer roadmap

craggy mortar
#

i think self-only would be fair... (holding s6 like a badge of pride rn

#

well but then if people know you want s6 theyd just start griefing

finite furnace
#

Ngl bcs s6 is pretty minimal upgrade I dont mind it keeps its current challange

craggy mortar
#

maybe it'll make runs more interesting

#

s6 is basically no upgrade i dont think the proc does much

finite furnace
#

But s4 and s5 nerf is needed its just too long to get

#

360 stones

scarlet quest
#

proc does absolutely nothing

#

I have never benefitted from the s6 upgrade

finite furnace
#

Yeah s6 is like medal

#

So I dont mind its current challange

chilly minnow
obsidian oriole
#

You mean TP mains with whale gear, true

tacit ivy
#

literally worth less than increasing max mp

velvet raven
#

🥀

strange adder
sharp bison
#

This makes me wonder how she'd compare to all the other DPSes if the defence ignore on Kapow was lowered to 60% at 10SP. (With no other changes)

#

Quoting Yumi from another thread for some numbers on how strong 100% defence ignore is.

strange adder
#

i assume the numbers on the right are increasing dmg

#

84% (~22k) - most raids
50% ignore - 72%

like this would be a 72% increase in dmg

#

so with the "most raids" category it comes out to ~102% with 60% ignore

image.png
#

so kapow on its own would deal around x4 less dmg than now

#

~3.4x weaker in HE
~17.2x weaker in Chal

safe notch
#

Well i mean in most raids + challenge you'd realistically have a good amount of shred as well since its pty content

#

But its still a really big benefit over smaller values in said context

#

84% def in a party with wind orb (50%) + wall (48%) and 4 classes that shred 20% each (which is a very generous number) would make it be +300.87% dmg
With 100% ignore is once again +525% dmg
And so the math ends up being (100+525)/(100+300.87) = ~1.56

#

100% ignore is roughly a 1.56x dmg modifier in the scenario then

#

Compare that to a class with 50% built in ignore in the same scenario (who gets +388.45%) and you get that 100% ignore is roughly a 1.28x modifier over the 50% ignore

#

And the diff only gets bigger the less shred values you have in your pty

wise badger
safe notch
#

Lets run the same calcs for 4 and 8 man parts in craids

#

For 4 man lets assume 3 classes that shred 20% and for 8 lets assume 6

#

Which once again is very very generous

#

And then ofc wind + wall

#

That comes out to:
4 man: 492.9%
8 man: 840.18%

#

Once again with 100% ignore its 2339.02 which means

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4 man: 4.11x modifier over 0 ignore
8 man: 2.59x modifier over 0 ignore

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Doing the same with 50% ignore classes gets you
4 man: 2.56x modifier over 50 ignore
8 man: 1.8x modifier over 50 ignore

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The point is high def ignore values tend to get really overtuned with the def values we see these days

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Which is why no class can come close to etw's HE clear time

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And its also really hard to balance around due to how wildly different the expected dmg modifier can be depending on party comp and content

strange adder
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60% ign kapow + nisha is pocket shred + wind

image.png
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~1.76x weaken in HE

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so if the idea is to kill etw's HE time then that sure would work

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so being generous and saying that it would lengthen the HE times by about 1.5x would be fair

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taking the top etw time this week from 25:50 to 38:75

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and the 2nd etw time from 37:28 to 57:47

safe notch
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I hope you do realize thats not how it works

strange adder
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well i am stupid

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thats also not taking into account the fact that lowering kapow to 60% puts it only 10% ignore higher than mont and mixsys

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cant wait to be having to brav stack on etw

safe notch
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And you do realize 60% is still more than most the cast

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Obviously if they lower the ignore that much on kp they'd have to increase the raw dmg on something to account for it but all im saying is high ignore is incredibly hard to balance with the way defense scales and should not be a thing

strange adder
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and im saying that kog clearly wont do anything other than lower the ignore

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comparing kapow and mont in 'current' content like 21-5

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both kapow and mont can hit max

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HA2 kapow does a total of 71,622%

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HA2 mont does a total of 243,948%

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its just that the 100% ignore on kapow carries it to be higher

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lowering it to 50-60% puts it significantly lower

safe notch
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Bro just does not wanna be not #1 class in the game ig