#Senpai Events

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

nimble zephyr
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you just can't counter the arguments so now all you are saying is "if you don't want tutorial then leave"

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ok i guess im the one who should be leaving the game

west zodiac
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but like i also said

nimble zephyr
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you don't understand cuz people who needs help are given help, it's the problem with people who reject the help given

west zodiac
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if people leave over two weeks later having a tutorail for the people that arent day one or struggling

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then so be it

west zodiac
proven dust
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I'm a returning player (1 month in), and help is difficult to come by

west zodiac
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cause eveyrone regardless of wanting to learn or not

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has to do it

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and if they do not learn they leave

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shrimple

nimble zephyr
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so it's a net loss for the company

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as we said

west zodiac
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it's a net loss anyways

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because if they dont get carried through like now

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guess what

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they leave

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either way they leave

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but the tutrial would have them leave before effecting ppls runs

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which is a net benefit

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imagine running a riad and not ahving to ask if ppl know mechs

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imagine that

nimble zephyr
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so this thread is to suggest a solution to fix that net loss that the game is going through right now

west zodiac
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cause fi they dont know mechs they cannot even run normal

nimble zephyr
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and you are suggesting another thing that will

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also make net loss?

west zodiac
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this topic isnt just black oir white

nimble zephyr
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idgi

west zodiac
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it's not gonna just disappear

nimble zephyr
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well you should at least give a solution that helps the status quo

west zodiac
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it'll stem the bleeding\

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but it's not and end all be all and that's because humans exist

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not everyone is built the same

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human nature no matter what system will ruin anything

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but we still ahve systes

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because if we didnt it would be worse as it is now without one

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and hell if it's not a tutorail please add something that is new

nimble zephyr
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it's not just as simple as that because company needs to put in resources and effort to create these, but if it isn't gonna help and potentially gonna be even worse

west zodiac
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i'd probs more then likelyt agree

nimble zephyr
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then whats the point of adding it

west zodiac
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see the thing is we cannot for certain say so ill concede that yes it's a hit or miss but i'd rather take a shot at future proofing the game even if it isnt perfect

proven dust
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The point of adding it is to help people who need it. If they don't need it, then they don't need it.

nimble zephyr
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yea that means that the tutorial has to be optional

west zodiac
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exactly

proven dust
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Yes, has to be optional and allows parties

nimble zephyr
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but if the tutorial is optional then it's gonna be neglected by people who are not willing to learn anyways, and thats what we've been saying the whole time

west zodiac
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it can be optional up to a certain point will you agree to that how about the first 3 months of the raid no tutorial

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then after three months as that's good and if you fully cleared the raid past the three months you dont do the tutroail

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but if you havent fully cleared then you do but only to that dungeon y9ou havent cleared

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sound fair?

proven dust
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There will always be people who are not willing to learn. They may end up leaving regardless.

It should be for people who need it.

nimble zephyr
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People already have community written guides outside where they can learn

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the point is why add a tutorial when these exist already

west zodiac
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but it's not helping as people are ignoring that and also ignoring people talking to tthem in party chat

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this would help release some of that pressure

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off the community

nimble zephyr
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it shouldn't be the game's job to spoonfeed you everything though

west zodiac
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and off of the person

west zodiac
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without a tutorial

proven dust
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I understand that. I look up guides and watch videos, but there are just some things I don't get.

If there is an optional tutorial, I can join a party and tell me what I'm misunderstanding.

west zodiac
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but then afterwards yes i do agree it should have one to future proof it

nimble zephyr
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yea and I feel like the trial and error aspect is also part of the raid experience?

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in fact you would have to go through it in the future

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when you do raids later in the road

west zodiac
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yes even with guids and reading it

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you still have to trail and error

nimble zephyr
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whats wrong with making them get used to it early?

west zodiac
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hence why ppl still wipe in 15-6

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it still exists just with more of a knowledge base

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so there not as dumbfounded

proven dust
soft jungleBOT
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salttracer has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

nimble zephyr
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yea but thats on the people who are not telling the person well, and how can you be sure that you won't be confused with in game tutorial as well?

west zodiac
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sure but atleast it'll have gifs and text and you can repeat it as many times as you like until you do understand it fullyt

nimble zephyr
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yea I can do the same

west zodiac
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they have npc's that can do mechs with you

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like lowe

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he can show you

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they can program that too

proven dust
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My stance is: A tutorial isn't needed if the community is patient enough to help my work out my errors.

But with how the raid environment is right now, people will either:

  • get angry and berate me for messing up, or
  • kick me out of the party

Some do try to explain, but it's too general and I can't understand it well.

nimble zephyr
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if you come into the raid blindly and expect someone in the party to explain everything to you, I think thats on you

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you should be looking at guides beforehand to at least be familiar with whats going to come out

proven dust
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The game tutorial is not going to solve the problem. It should just be a way to make sure people can understand the mechanics at a slower pace.

nimble zephyr
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you can already learn the mechanics at a pace you want right now though, there is story mode, solo mode, or you can make a party with other people who are also learning

proven dust
nimble zephyr
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there is written guides

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and if you really want you can kindly ask one of the veterans to go through it with you

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idk I personally learned abyss raid through one of my guildmates

west zodiac
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not everyone has access to that speically with our community

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some ppl do doom challenge dailes log off and then do dailies and log off

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for the rest of the week

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and those that do bless them honestly

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but it's a small number

proven dust
west zodiac
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were as an in game guide will alwyas be there

nimble zephyr
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I mean there are many different ways already im just listing off a few

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how I learned was to ask the person to not dps and actually look at every mech

proven dust
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Solo doesn't work because it has a high cp.

If it were possible for [story] mode to be soloable, that could be counted as the tutorial.

Say, [story] has to be completed before attempting other levels?

nimble zephyr
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solo has same cp requirement as normal

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I personally don't really like the current solo raid though

proven dust
nimble zephyr
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theres some problems with solo raids that I can mention but thats probably for a different suggestion thread

proven dust
nimble zephyr
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well story is really dumbed down version of normal, but for abyss I think solo mode is actually much easier than story

tropic jay
# proven dust My stance is: A tutorial isn't needed if the community is patient enough to help...

speaking as someone who was in this positiong months ago, ill throw my mindset on this.

i did not do abyss for a long long time outside of story mode. personally, didn't feel ready. gear and stat wise, and not knowing the mechs. So I avoided it and built myself up till i was more than ready.

When I finally jumped in and got taken....i immediately let them know "Hey this is my first time doing this. Got a guide up with mechs but i got some questions"

west zodiac
proven dust
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So story mode is basically already a tutorial. To unlock the other modes, one must complete story mode.

But the issue is not with the event. I really think it depends on the person who is carrying (as a senpai).

Will they allow down and explain, or rush to compete?

I repeat my original stance: The event in itself has no issues. It's the community and our communication.

proven dust
tropic jay
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admittingly, i was worried that i was probably killing their chances of a clear, which, even after the nerfs, was still tough if you weren't super geared out. but even then i still gave it my best shot. i let them know i might mess up and to please call me out on it to help me learn.

I did this for my first few gaunts. Even gave Chlorite seeds from my own stash as thank you gifts to them

nimble zephyr
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but I think that also has some issues

tropic jay
nimble zephyr
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so well it's something that i was thinking about

proven dust
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The second abyss one

tropic jay
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2nd abyss, so Blooming Mineral Field

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that one makes sense, there's not much in terms of the mechs there

proven dust
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I dunno, I keep on dying in the first phase

tropic jay
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and since i was playing a dps (2ndary), i kinda got the "mostly focus on your dps", and was told not to worry about some of the mechs cause we would skip them, and the ones that were goign to be done would be by support

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1st phase if you're dying itsl ikely not a mech, it's just a damage reduction, boss damage reduction, and adaptation check

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unless its the bomb thingy

nimble zephyr
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yea there are lot of things in dungeon that kills you not because of mech but because you are missing defensives

proven dust
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the fog thing?

tropic jay
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yeah

nimble zephyr
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and I think what elsword SHOULD do is they should give better guides on how to actually set your gear up effectively

proven dust
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I dunno, I'll try to run it again, but it's kinda frustrating not figuring it out

nimble zephyr
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I feel like current punch event doesn't really tell you how to set your gear up correctly

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people don't know what to do with stuff that they get

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like people get 30 pursuit stones

west zodiac
nimble zephyr
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and they don't know what they are supposed to do with that

proven dust
tropic jay
# proven dust I dunno, I'll try to run it again, but it's kinda frustrating not figuring it ou...

again in some instances, like the one you seem to be having trouble with for 18-2, it's just a defensive stat check. if you're getting nuked, have someone check your stats. if you don't have Unique Illipia, 45% boss damage reduction, about 20% damage reduction, and capped adapt (with camp buff and elixir if needed), those are good to start. collection effects for damage reduction are useful too for more if you dont have them

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to also mention, i started doing abyss as a dps, not support, and dps doesn't do most of the mechs tbf

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but when i started doing support for it, i went through the same process

proven dust
tropic jay
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"hey, first time doing this as a support, used to the raid as a dps. let me know if im messing up mechs or if i should be doing it and im not"

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like, im being up front about it

west zodiac
tropic jay
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"hey, im kinda bad at this, let me know if im being bad so i can stop being bad and git gud"

nimble zephyr
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it's most of the time problem of people and not the game

tropic jay
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^

proven dust
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I had a support get mad because they weren't doing mechanics (abyss 1), and I was trying to run back and forth as dps. The rest of the team were new.

tropic jay
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hence why im the one calling myself out bout it Kekw

halcyon topaz
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i had to drive home so i didnt really get to catch up with everything here so far but your argument here basically boils down to 'if you dislike my suggestion then you are wrong' which is very egotistical in itself

proven dust
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Instead of helping, person got mad at us then left

tropic jay
nimble zephyr
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yea thats just bad on them

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as long as you are willing to learn

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there are resources and people willing to help

west zodiac
nimble zephyr
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at least speaking from experience

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and honestly mmo is really all about making connections

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so having connection is very helpful

proven dust
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@west zodiac what are you considering as "penalty for the new players"?

nimble zephyr
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something that I suggested in the past

west zodiac
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i feel like if it was made to make the first clear

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not have less rewards and every attempt past that gives nothing

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that's when you;d do story

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/normal with others

nimble zephyr
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wellp the problem with my suggestion is that

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if that's the case

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new people aren't gonna run solo

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at all

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cuz they want full reward

proven dust
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That's not really a penalty tho. They are still getting clear rewards.

nimble zephyr
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so it's again waste of resources

proven dust
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Depends what reward is being amended though

west zodiac
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hell the raids are nerfed to the point where having more then one difficulty is kinda mute

icy haven
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they end up not knowing any and not enjoying the game. How will we get new players then?

It's a reality in mmorpgs. If game events "jumped" you from lvl 1 to 99, gave you everything from the get go, you will be lost. You wont get knowledge how to play the game

But I dont say we dont need events like that. Since old dgs are outdated, it is needed esp all of the other players are on latest dgs. However, the game need to address the knowledge part

west zodiac
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take D2 make it the normal make all the rewards for that

proven dust
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Hmm, I don't really agree with getting rid of difficulties, because some people really like the challenge...wait, like, normal vs story, or challenge mode?

west zodiac
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so why even do somehthing not worth their times

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i mean future wise right but even then the system for udw is trash

nimble zephyr
west zodiac
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ppl be spending upwards of 50 bill

proven dust
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Honestly, I think the biggest mistake was that it's too easy to get to lv99.

I started when Chung was introduced. And, while slightly pointless, the quests that made you go into the field to fight monsters gave me a chance to practice combos and test skills.

west zodiac
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for a decent roll

nimble zephyr
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but lot of things rn in endgame is locked behind the highest difficulty

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getting weapon drops, titles are all locked behind highest difficulty

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so people are forced to run highest one

icy haven
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i think it is rewarding in newbie pov. too much in fact

for end game, i appreciate the rewardd and i fully understand that the event is to get new players. not mainly targetted for vets

west zodiac
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yeah but if it requires vets to function to begin with it's like a coin with two sides

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if one side doestn wanna do it

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it fails at being an event

proven dust
nimble zephyr
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yea the rewards in lower difficulty is almost negligible right now

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and everything that is gated is locked behind highest difficulty

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like I like the idea of challenge raids

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because stuff from challenge raids are more qol than progression

west zodiac
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title yes weapon no and the only reason i say that is because the people that need the most cp boost or help dps wise is the ppl who need it the most

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d1ers

proven dust
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if the rewards are at lower levels, the challenging raids can be more of a cosmetic (those character self-mission things, bragging rights)

west zodiac
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so it doesnt take 42 weeks to get one force

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lmao

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SC for those hard stuff 15-5

halcyon topaz
nimble zephyr
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yea thats what im saying

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the difficulty system is flawed

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it's better when it's separated into normal and challenge

west zodiac
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personally i want it removed

nimble zephyr
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where challenge raid gives completely different reward

west zodiac
nimble zephyr
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and it's more of qol

halcyon topaz
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i think it works better as story/normal tbh like for serp theres just no reason to do d3 atm

west zodiac
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more content for end gammers too

nimble zephyr
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ye

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same with d1

halcyon topaz
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and d1 is basically story atp but it eats your weekly rewards

nimble zephyr
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it's literally waste of resource

halcyon topaz
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same for doom

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no reason to do d2 except for staging

proven dust
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put the important rewards on the lower tier, and the optional rewards on the higher tier, maybe?

halcyon topaz
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and d1 is basically story but they both eat your weekly reward

nimble zephyr
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yea story mode is better cuz it has separate weekly count

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so doing story mode doesn't conflict with your actual clear

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so you can actually "learn" the raids in story if you really wanted to

west zodiac
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adding just a little more explanation to story optional

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something you can checkmark before entering

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knowledge base story

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or just get my weekly clear story

proven dust
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Hehe, Mr. Raiden will have a fun time reading through all of this.

west zodiac
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Lmao I can already imagine like a high school English teacher having to read all his students papers

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Mine is filled with run on sentences

formal oxide
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I've already read all of it

west zodiac
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Holy bro was watching a 64 pile up car crash in real time and said nothing

formal oxide
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Not real time, been back and forth

hardy frost
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I saw the GM’s comment about a tutorial and here’s my two cents.

With how high enhancement raid weapons along with high enhancement armor are given for free now and people are pushed through the story content due to events like Quick Start, new players have absolutely no idea how to play their character yet they’re left on the doorstep of content where it’s necessary to understand how both their character and the game works. With the Senpai event, they’re just straight up carried through Varnimyr raid, Titan’s Grotto, Pruinaum raid, and even Abyss raid and Great Steel Wall so they have no idea mechanics even exist unless they have a really bad run.

Not everyone wants to interact with the community which is valid (and feels like it’s being encouraged to a degree due to solo mode and the recent changes to giant bosses) despite the game being a MMO. And for those who would interact? Maybe they asked for help and were just outright ignored so they view the community as unhelpful so they changed their mind about communicating. Maybe they don’t even know the community is active since most everyone is done with content through Abyss and the party finder for Serpentium and Doom Aporia isn’t really active since it seems most people are either done with it or are still playing with their friends. Heck, I’ve noticed the party finder for Great Steel Wall is on life support since the changes to Giant Boss dungeons were introduced. There’s so many factors for why someone wouldn’t even attempt to interact with the community now-a-days, but these are the two I can think of off the top of my head.

“Read/watch a guide”/”Google exists”/”just ask” is just not a good solution since there will always be players who don’t even know those resources exist and players who just won’t look up resources outside what the game itself provides. A tutorial is a necessity with the current state of the game.

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Personally, I think if there’s no normal mode clear data on the account if a proposed tutorial is implemented, the player should be forced to clear a tutorial before heading into normal mode raids. It can even be implemented through story mode and have it act similarly to the opening tutorial for when a new character is made, forcing a pause when a mechanic is about to come up and explaining what it is either through text, pictures, or both. Or just do that but with a separate tutorial mode. Either way, force it to go through all relevant mechanics. By “relevant” I mean “ones that are bound to pop up” and ”ones that will cause a party wipe if not cleared”, basic attacks don’t really need a freeze frame explanation.

Heck, even just making the text warnings that already exist in the raids better would theoretically do more too. A lot of the warnings are too vague. Make the wording clearer/more specific and make them pop up a good 20 or so seconds before the mechanic when applicable so people have time to read and process.

west zodiac
old nexus
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the way i see it is that while these big events give a lot of items to a new player where they can theoretically progress a decent amount in the game with them, it also gives little to no guidance
this is leading to what i presume is a lot of new players struggling with the content and possibly dropping the game quickly, which has kog making these senpai events to try and incentivize veteran players to interact with them more. but then these events are designed to "carry" them which also doesn't facilitate much unless you happen to get the right combination of players willing to learn and willing to teach.

we can't say whether spending resources on making a tutorial is "worth" it but i do think they have to care about new players and retaining them, otherwise why would they even do these events? why would they try to include the senpai events to help the new players struggling? it's so they don't quit. improving the new player experience is important.

i agree there is a knowledge gap that these events aren't addressing; we call levelling to 99 the "tutorial" oftentimes but i don't think it does anything to prepare players for how different modern day dungeons are. and i am not sure what else is a solution to a knowledge gap besides providing more information, like with a tutorial.
someone mentioned adding more tutorial-like hints to solo mode which would work and idk how different that is from a tutorial

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i think at bare minimum the text prompting can be better/clearer/easier to see.
and while it might seem dumb, i wouldn't mind if they do something obvious for first-timers like "look at your skill tiers! this is a thing that's relevant!" "did you know there's a debuff bar you should pay attention to?" "pls pay attention to this text prompt in the dungeon it gives hints!"
these are all obvious stuff to us who have been playing a long time, but there's a lot of things a new player needs to try and learn when they are starting out that they wouldn't even know where to look for some of these things in the game when they are first starting.

hardy frost
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The lack of direction is made even worse with Prof Pho not even being an option until you've cleared the 10 mil CP event. But then why would any new player even think to look at it when they have the +11 Abyss weapon and the +10 Tenebrous? Even if they did, they're just going to see that they've already outgeared it, done content that Prof Pho doesn't even cover, and conclude it's irrelevant. There's no real in-game source for new players to rely on.

I agree the Senpai events are intended to help, but since old players heavily outgear the content, it's just, “I'll carry and get my items”. There's no incentive for them to ask, “do you know/understand the mechanics”/”what do you need further help with” because it's easier to just wordlessly carry, especially since it's really 50/50 on if someone will reply anyway. This furthers new players having no incentive to learn along with teaching them there's nothing they need to know anyway. I can't think of anything that would “fix” the Senpai events to have it more focused on helping new players actually learn mechanics and their character that wouldn't act as a deterrent for older players leading to them not wanting to participate. I don't even think revamping the mentor system would help either.

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Is there a perfect way to implement tutorials? No. Either it’s too heavy handed or not good enough. Either it forces you to clear it successfully before entering story/normal mode or it’s just optional. Ultimately, some players will actually learn from it while others won’t. That’s just the way it is. An in-game text guide for giant bosses and raids with pictures or gifs could potentially be a middle ground as it would theoretically be less resource intensive since they wouldn't have to program a whole new dungeon experience. But then the argument becomes the community's already made their own and who wants to sit through and read a guide anyway. However, with the current direction of the game, I believe some type of in-game resource is necessary since, as I stated previously, new players do not know how to play their characters and do not know mechanics even exist since they can now ignore/breeze through dungeons that introduce even the most basic of mechanics (Altar of Dedication being the most obvious).

I do like the idea that for newer accounts or those without raid clear data the game would point out the debuff bar and skill tiers along with stating the text prompts in dungeons are important. It would honestly pair really well with the proposed improvements to the dungeon's text warnings.

I also kinda think to help players learn their character there should be either community voted skill bars or skill bars using skills with popular usage from internal dev data that you can see for your class in the skill ui if you click on a button, similar to how you have to click on another button for the command list? It's not uncommon to see something like that in gacha games, a couple I've played have had an option to see successful teams + their builds. It would at least help point players who are struggling to figure out what works in the right direction while others who want to do their own testing will continue to do so.

sleek flicker
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  1. if u think u can play an mmo without community. U re delusional
  2. solo mode exist bcs of lack of farm parties. We have 0 reason to farm nf. So there are too less of a people to get nf via parties
  3. doc, guides. Maybe they dont even know those exist. I m not even sure if I wanna run a raid with someone who is ignorant enough to not know how to search things up in internet.
  4. current status quo
    a) people who wants to learn already learns
    b) people who doesnt wanna doesnt learn and gets gatekept
    4.b) tutorial mode
    a) people who wants to learn ll still learn
    b) people who doesnt wanna learn ll gatekept faster(?)
    Thats all u want tutorial mode for?
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  1. lack of direction 10m cp event is litteraly path to progress then after that prof phoru does the same. After all of that you should be able to learn what to do next from asking or researching anyways. It's an mmo not AAA solo story game.
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  1. people not knowing how to play their character is litteraly same issue as people not wanting to learn how to do mechs in raid
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Do u expect game to give u, what skills u should use, what spacing u should do, what rotation u should do?

sleek flicker
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Tbh it sounds more like an "ego" to expect for game to hold ur hand through litteraly everything, tell u litteraly everything like a "little princess/prince"

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Max I agree is the fact that there should be guides in official website. So researching ll be a lot easier

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You won't tell me a person who downloaded the game won't be able to find guides from the website which he downloaded the game, rite?

hardy frost
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There will always be people who decide to treat a MMO as a single player experience. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, just that I guess it's valid if someone decides to play that way. People who see solo mode and a dead party finder, who otherwise have issues finding parties, who have asked for help and gotten ignored, or any other reason that makes them believe there's no community/the community's toxic they will double down and play solo to the best of their ability. Or end up quitting.

I literally said pointing someone to a community curated guide isn't a solution especially since it seems like people are unaware there's even an active community or even that the community's created something like that in the first place. Even if they think to Google and are able to find a YouTube video guide, YouTube has that age verification thing now. If someone's account was flagged by YouTube as being underage, could they even watch it? I don't know how they decide what's appropriate for the flagged accounts so I have no idea if Elsword content would be included or not. Then there's the other side: a new player might not even think to Google guides when they literally just picked up the game, got pushed to harder content via events, and expect to be able to easily deal with it as a result. My whole point is there needs to be more resources in the game to help get players on the right track.

I acknowledge there's no perfect solution that would properly address the knowledge gap. In-game tutorials, guides hosted in-game, etc. unless someone is forced to interact with them there's always a chance they just won't.

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I feel like you missed my point that someone who did the CP boost event will look at Prof Pho, see they've already cleared content that went beyond it, then decide it's useless to them. There are people who will 100% do that and feel they don't need to care about something that appears irrelevant at a glance.

You used to be able to learn your character via leveling. You don't get that anymore due to quick start and CP boost’s ERP boost, especially if these are the events going forward. Something needs to be added to point players in the right direction. As I said, I don't believe it's uncommon in gacha games to show teams + builds for content, so why is it so wrong to add an option to see a skill bar that's popular for your class? It doesn't ruin my experience when a gacha does it so I can't see how it would ruin the experience here. I'm not talking about skill rotation or positioning or anything that comes with experience, just a skill bar people can reference to point them in the right direction.

Also, important to note, you don't need the official elsword site to download the game. It's on steam as well. I don't believe you even need to interact with the site to create your account if you go through steam, but I made mine over a decade ago so I could be misremembering or something might've changed since then. I know steam has a link to the site on the store page, but it can easily be ignored. Yeah, this brings back “just Google” but some people will not think to do that, if it's not at least linked in the game then it just doesn't exist to them.

sleek flicker
#

if person deems prof phoru unnecessary, thats on their part. It is literally newbie guide. Lets say I deem abyss unnecessary bcs I got the weapon and I m 15m cp (abyss is 5m cp content). Is it game's fault I decided to ignore accessories abyss gives? No. For your steam comment 1 month ago before event player count from steam is 287-450 today's peek is 139-335. So how many of newbies do u think came from steam I wonder. And I ll point it again, if u wanna play an mmo u have to interact with community, This game isnt under genre of RPG only we have MMO for a reason. Dark souls cant have easy mode, MMO cant be playable alone at end game. MOBA cant be playable as solo. Just because someone wants it cant change it. Solo mode is entirety is made for old content which dont get farm parties so new people can farm their titles. We didnt learn our character through leveling. We learned it through reading the skill trying them on dungeons and free training. And now we have people who doesnt wanna read nor try nor ask. It wasnt game's job to teach our character to us and it still isnt.

#

And for steam comment again, kog publishes patch notes through steam too. They can just publish posts whenever new guide is added to website or should I assume people who plays through steam cant be bothered to check steam posts too?

halcyon topaz
#
  1. I can agree that they could do in game prompt guides pointing you to certain things such as 'INTRODUCING SKILL TIERS' or like 'INTRODUCING THE BUFF BAR' etc etc. these would only happen once per account but these also come with questionable use because how many times have you seen people skip over these when apps have these onboarding things on installation. People hate reading.
    1.5. you can argue the same thing for in game tutorials that teach you about armor systems and the like. They can be great... If people want to read them when they show up.
  2. The most popular skills arent necessarily the best ones to bring. I often see people suggest skills for characters that the endgame community wouldnt bring. I remember the old skill stacking doc made by votes in this server during elrianode era had some pretty questionable choices.
  3. If you think the community for a game does not exist then thats your fault. Theres a community for basically everything.
  4. Treating an mmo like a singleplayer experience is definitely wrong. The reason for that is literally in the genre's name
  5. Teaching the boss mechanics within a game is not the way to go about it for many reasons stated above. It feels too much like handholding for people to enjoy, people still wont read it and those who do would probably just seek a guide anyway, theres no guarantee that they even remember said mechs afterwards or know what to do when multiple mechs overlap.
  6. The game should also not teach the player what the optimal rotation is, that's for the players to discover. I can however agree to them adding pointers such as how the game is about skill spam and you can pot up to get mp back etc etc. these do come with the issue mentioned in point 1. however.
foggy violet
# sleek flicker 1) if u think u can play an mmo without community. U re delusional 2) solo mode...
  • current status quo
    a) people who want to learn already learn, then go do their raid in a party and most likely get flamed, especially in abyss & serpentium, because reading != experience, with a possible blacklist (but who cares about that, it's on them for being n year too late right? Should've been here day 1). Some of those people who would have done great otherwise, cant take this pressure/criticism well (especially if they did a lot of efforts trying to learn and then flopped regardless) and might stop trying altogether.

b) people who dont wanna learn read guides, go do their raid blind in a party and absolutely ruin the experience for everyone because they know absolutely nothing. Flaming wont affect them because they dont care, and they will get in multiple other parties and ruin the experience for more people until they get notoriously blacklisted for being incompetent.

  • tutorial mode
    a) people who want to learn, now get an opportunity to test that knowledge in game. They will be more confident joining a party later on.

b) people who dont want to learn read guides, wont get the chance to proceed to ruining actual gaunts. If they pass the tutorial even though they dont understand anything, then at least they know how it works on a surface level. Even if they forget the entire tutorial, they will be able to figure out what to do to a minimum, because they've been there before and "passsed" that mech at least once. And they can always repeat the tutorial if they still feel incompetent.
In any case, those "evil players" (who most likely dont even reaad the chat at all) that skip everything and want to ruin full runs for others are a non-issue either. The community will do its work with tutorials or without. We're talking about players who genuinely want to progress here.

#

Thats all we want tutorial mode for, indeed. And yes, current endgame (which is, doom aporia & cm) can stay the way it is because it's the current final step of progression. If players reach that far, and go in blind ruining the runs, that's on them. Tutorials would be here to help players test older (mandatory) content without the pressure of performing in a party. Not everyone learns the same, and I'm sure people had long threads talking about how teaching serpentium raids (when they were new) for some people was a genuine bother, even though they really cared and wanted to learn. The game should tackle this. It doesn't affect anyone except new players, I'll never understand why many people are vehemently against this.

jagged turtle
#

Returning-ish player experience:

  1. I get nervous about doing well in rosso, and study the mechanics and watch videos
  2. I joined a party for rosso
  3. The dps obliterates rosso and most the the things I spent time learning were irrelevant

By the time I reached Berthe I was like... Do I REALLY need to study these or can I learn the first half. The only time I used the rosso knowledge was when a run went sideways and everyone was just taking turns dying.

#

At that time (I think the title requirements have been lowered significantly since then) if I had to run a raid 50 times I'd rather it be quick and easy than a 30-50minutes slugfest where everyone dies because "I didn't need to know the mechanics last time!"

The senpai event seems like it's setting up some unrealistic expectations once you actually hit endgame and people can't just make the boss disappear anymore. BUT! I'm not endgame, so I don't actually know 😅

cursive sage
#

Feedback on the event:
*I have by accident signed up as Kouhai rather than senpai on a character well above 20mil CP. Not only am I unable to swap, I completely lose out on valuable rewards. There should be a way to swap between both for people who made a mistake like in my case or for people who eventually get strong enough to hit the 20mil CP mark.

jagged turtle
#

Also, skill bars tend to be confusing to me because what you "stack" can just change whenever, so you follow old ones not realizing they're very outdated

halcyon topaz
#

so just ask someone about the current meta

#

there are plenty of ways to learn the raid if you're new

#

when someone forms a party most of the time they are expecting to just clear the raid smooth

#

but if you tell them you're new they most likely will take that into account

nimble zephyr
#

If you are running the raid blind with any knowledge and you come into raid gaunt without telling anyone that you have no knowledge about the raid then you are obviously going to get flamed

#

The worst thing that can happen when you tell them that you dont know the mechs well or if you are first time with the raid is probably "sorry we are looking for someone with more experience"

#

Then you just leave and find someone else

#

But if you stay silent and you go in to raid and you wipe the party because you didn't know the mech then that's on you

#

And this doesn't just apply to newbies, this applies to people in the endgame too, like serp and doom raids. The general expectation is that you study the mechs beforehand and you come into raids, and that shouldn't be a burden on the game to teach you, it should be your own responsibilty

halcyon topaz
#

^

#

theres a lot of times where i can run with other endgame players

#

say not to do something in pty chat like 'dont use g here after this mech' and they do it anyway

tropic jay
#

and as someone who has fat fingered bans in Berthe, if it causes a wipe, I would call myself out on it, apologize, and we go back in and do it better.

#

People are getting fatigued at trying to help but it meaning nothing cause the person doesn't want to listen. but people are willing to help, just be upfront about it

west zodiac
west zodiac
#

you guys seem to have some idea what a game should be by your own made up personal standards while also missing the point that this is supposed to help people that struggle

#

ignoring the people that dont even wanna put in the mental work

#

it';ll help the ppl that wanna learn

sleek flicker
#

u even ignored the part where I said they put solo mode for dead content :3

#

I ll not even do further communication with someone who cant even be bothered to read what I wrote

#

btw for saying about being new I m 21m cp I do doom. I too use 🆕 just saying

empty frost
#

I think a lot of these new players are forgetting that MMOs are 95% solo content and grinding followed by 5% interacting with the community for content
There's so many ppl flexing their clear time vids and some showing vids on how raids work or || and hear me out || do the grind we all did by watching kr vids seeing the mistakes and learn from them

west zodiac
west zodiac
#

nice try though

sleek flicker
#

my whole point is game shouldnt and u re telling I meant solo mode is teaching

#

go learn reading again

sleek flicker
halcyon bane
#

My honest opinion is that if someone does not do their DUE DILIGENCE and does not interact with the community (in a community game) then by all means deal with the current struggle of not interacting with the community in a community game. Let's say that the devs do implement a tutorial of sorts and "help" the community. Now, that it is implemented in this hypothetical, do we honeslty believe that everyone will recieve the information well and understand what to do? The reason I make this claim is because there is simply no way to guarantee that, in ANY facet. BECAUSE.... the people who are struggling to do prof pho are the same people who are messing up these mechs. Professor Pho, the same tiny rat that is holding your hand through every single area in the game one by one. To sum it up, there is no solution to these types of players WITHOUT community interference, I mean for pete's sake even when they are guided half the time they dont bother because of the culture of MMOs and being carried through early game. Either that or they simply are not familiar with game mechanics and how they function so they struggle regardless.

#

The senpai event neither helps nor harms this and CANNOT solve half the issues endgame/earlygame players are experiencing.

halcyon bane
west zodiac
sleek flicker
#

you are telling me someone as human being who has access to internet and download this game through steam or website. someone who can sign up, someone who can play mmorpg might struggle at searching things in internet

halcyon topaz
#

I understand that just because you read how a mech works doesnt mean that you still will be perfect at it

sleek flicker
#

and I didnt see u saying why any of our points and I meant 5 people here giving u 100 of reasons why it would not work is wrong.

halcyon topaz
#

But theres no workarounds that wont result in people feeling babied

empty frost
# west zodiac reading and actually doing the raid are two seperate things

so lets confirm something here. You read the guide for Berthe as the example, you learn that the skill colors are connected to your skills being tena str and brav, the guide says dont press the ban skill instead wait for it to be over or let your dps utilise it. Are you saying that the content is any different than as described?
Ran raid since that has more mechs than berthe
18-1 crown over your head means move away from the part diamond means look in the direction of the object coming towards you to avoid dying. You mean that the in game raid would be so different from the simple instructions left by veteran players that the incompetent and illiterate cant read and comprehend? even serp raid mechs can be simplified to 20-5 dont get hit by the boss, space yourself correctly be aware of the boss hits and dont release in the top left corner.

jagged turtle
empty frost
#

at the end of it for every 10~20 new players there's 1~2 that actually take the time to either ask questions about the raid/content and their character buffs/debuffs or do self research it's just sad.

sleek flicker
#

yeah no u can ask as much time as u want

empty frost
#

^

sleek flicker
#

there is not a single person who d get annoyed by someone who wants to learn

jagged turtle
#

Also I did learn from solo mode, because I can just die until I figure out how not to die. The boss getting dps'd down while I wait to rez

empty frost
#

rather they ask than I get another DA that doesnt bring a single buffing skill and expecting things to be fine without their contribution [my count so far is 10 DAs that didnt even bring feather crest in wall/raid]

sleek flicker
west zodiac
#

and sure some mechs are simple

#

however it's simple for you and some ppl need extra time that some ppl in teh community

#

are not willing to give

sleek flicker
#

why not put easy mode on dark souls

#

its how it sounds

west zodiac
#

if that's how it sounds then you've already made up your mind about even a qol that would effect you in the least bit

sleek flicker
#
  • its waste of resources and time for nexon
halcyon topaz
west zodiac
#

wouldnt*

west zodiac
# halcyon topaz ^

yumi we already have ppl reading guides but guess what it's still an issue

#

dont know why guides= problem sovled

#

like if that was the case we wouldnt be talking

#

right now

halcyon topaz
#

You clearly did not read what i wrote

empty frost
#

so let me ask have you ever played story mode for a raid fully?

halcyon topaz
#

If thats what you think my point sums up to

empty frost
#

bc all the raid mechs are there

sleek flicker
#

"A tutorial mode would not work"
yumi says why it wont work
u say yumi meant guides ll work

#

u dont read or grasp what it means in the said sentence

empty frost
#

I've seen new players [rare 1 sighting] actually advertise "story mode raid to learn mechs for ran"

west zodiac
#

ppl rush through

#

and it doesnt solve the ppl that ignore it as it's optional

sleek flicker
#

so u think ppl wont rush through tuorial

#

what kind of contradiction ure having

west zodiac
#

no becasue you casnnot clear it

#

without doing the mechs

#

if you wipe you do not go forward

sleek flicker
#

u never in ur life cleared a tutorial and never forget about it

empty frost
#

hence why they form there own for that purpose in other words do you want to learn? okay advertise a you want to form a learning story party.

halcyon topaz
#

Have you read what i wrote

sleek flicker
#

bcs u did it so fast and without a care

west zodiac
west zodiac
sleek flicker
#

we re not saying guides solves things

#

u cant even understand what we re saying

halcyon bane
#

imma just ping me message again cuz i think it sums it up perfectly ^-^

west zodiac
halcyon bane
sleek flicker
#

it wont help

#

we re saying it wont help

#

there is no maybe

#

we re showing u

halcyon bane
#

no lara lets be a bit more open minded

#

would it be beneficial?

#

yes. wihtout a doubt.

empty frost
#

no

halcyon bane
#

to like

sleek flicker
#

okay lemme breath for a second

halcyon bane
#

5 people.

halcyon topaz
#

xd

west zodiac
halcyon bane
#

it will literally help like 5-10 people

sleek flicker
#

bro has specific taste of ignoring other 3

#

just to disagree with me

#

I love this

#

yeah it ll help 5 people like mobi said

#

while it wont change a thing for the other 495 people who joined the event

#

so gratz u made whole new dungeon spent resources and time which could be used to other helpfull thigns for the 5 people who might or not might drop the game

halcyon topaz
#

Like idgi

#

We can say it doesnt work and all of a sudden we're the 'arbitrator of right and wrong'

#

But you can say it probs will work

#

And its fine?

empty frost
#

Yumi Lara we're trying to justify with someone who doesn't comprehend nor has the capacity to at the moment maybe they need more experience or simplified terminology that they can grasp

halcyon topaz
#

Like this is the 3rd or 4th time ive pointed out a double standard within your arguments

empty frost
#

hopefully should this information ever be used the individuals involved would glance past the suggestion and view to communities justification as to where the flaws lie.

sleek flicker
#

Aite I said everything I should said with suggestions that could be applied for people to have easier learning and researching time. I hope this somewhat of a convo helps people wavekawaii Please dont ping me anymore.

west zodiac
#

honestly is what it is status quo stays the same

tropic jay
#

ya know....i remember this guy mentioning how he wasn't being taken for Tirnog Dailies back then, yet had a +12 weapon

i think i'm starting to understand why Rico_pensive

halcyon topaz
#

Like theres no way im pointing out like 15 flaws with this guy's logic and he refuses to answer

still mica
#

my personal take is to hell with guides and learn on a trial by fire.

a lot of us here grew up in the 90s and 00s
y'all should be familiar with frigg around and find out type of approach

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
west zodiac
#

because its' all hypotical

#

literally

halcyon topaz
#

You've also never answered why feeling like you're being babied wont get people to quit

west zodiac
#

this system doestn exist

west zodiac
#

sadly that's a them problem

#

why do ppl have to suffer for their mental

#

like bro get over yourself

tropic jay
#

yeah kinda like how people not wanting to look up guides or listen is a them a problem

#

🙄

west zodiac
#

if you quite the game casue there is a guide

west zodiac
#

i never disagreed with that

halcyon topaz
west zodiac
#

so there would be good and bad things

halcyon topaz
#

You're missing the point

west zodiac
#

about the system

halcyon topaz
#

You're saying 'my tutorial will work this way'

proven dust
#

Before, there were field quests to actually test out combos and skills, and have adequate time to learn how to pilot a character.

But if the travel to 99 is simple now, all I would know to do is press "z" and "x."

Not that it can be fixed now, but games with no levels or lower levels tend to focus on skill more.

Didn't Elsword used to have a lvl cap at 45 at one point?

halcyon topaz
#

But when others say 'no it wont'

#

You ask what makes them the arbitrators of right and wrong

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
#

Are you the judge of that?

empty frost
tropic jay
still mica
#

Let's put it this way.

  • pros: A guide will help players who do want to pay some attention
  • cons: let's be realistic people don't really read or like to see guides, and this is in general, you see this type of mentality across ANY GAME ever, even for some simple indie games they just skip over the 3 lines of tutorials it has.

So, yes, a guide is not gonna be seen by like, 98% of people
and "sure it doesn't hurt to just have it there for at least the other 2%"

but then let's look at it from budget perspective, a company's perspective:
you're wasting budget resources for a content that only a 2% of the playerbase will actually care about.
Because making content isn't free... it isn't. There is a cost to everything a game implements, for an indie this isn't usually the case especially if the dev himself knows to do his own stuff like.. say, art and such
but for a company this isn't the case. never the case.

and the content because it's a tutorial it doesn't refund back the cost because you can't paywall a tutorial. It's a tutorial.

So, no, it does hurt to just have it there for the 2%
so unless the content actually sees activity from at least a good 35% of the community, it's moot point.

tropic jay
halcyon topaz
#

You havent answered that either

proven dust
tropic jay
tropic jay
still mica
#

if it was closer then it was worth making it, because even though budget was not refunded either way

the players actually appreciate the content enough to see activity in it, which is something you want... from a game... that players- play the game
the tutorial is there to teach, so if it sees activity, it made its worth

but if nobody is using it
you just spent money on art, coding and stuff

... to be a piece of fragment in a museum?

like let's say you don't earn anything from YT for being a small content creator who isn't in their radar yet
but you make a video you spent hours editing, don't you want to at least have a couple of viewers see it?

what's the point of making the video if it only gets reached by
What
3 people?

proven dust
still mica
#

but that's only if the players actually care for such, which

is very VERY unlikely to happen

#

and so is not a risk KoG cares to take (and I don't blame them for so)

proven dust
sleek flicker
#

yeah if u can prove that adding tutorial ll add 500 players per senpai event. with my whole heart please add it. dont get fixated on 500.

tropic jay
#

in fact its usually encourage if yo udont care about monetization or viewership as much

#

if monetization is a big thing for your livelihood, then you kinda have to care

still mica
#

yeah which is the case for a company, they depend on making money out of the game so they have to care how the money is spent

for KoG especially with Elsword given it's their golden child

proven dust
#

Well, actually, why don't we ask a dev to see how much it may cost. It's if a "low" cost, maybe implement it and see if it works?

tropic jay
#

you wont get that info

sleek flicker
#

Under nda

proven dust
#

bah! worth a try ~

sleek flicker
#

Even results of our feedbacks under nda

#

Its not maybe. They basically can't tell, since it d be breach of contract

tropic jay
#

even then the amount wouldn't be as simple

proven dust
#

ah, I'm not asking for an exact amount. more like hours, if that's allowed

tropic jay
#

i remember rush explaining before around master class dungeon releases

#

but he mentioned how the content was developed months prior

#

cause we were getting a new dungeon every 2 weeks

#

which, realistically, isn't feasible unless you got a bunch of people working around the clock

nimble zephyr
#

I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on the new raid alr

tropic jay
#

probably

nimble zephyr
#

Even if it is coming out in 2 years

proven dust
#

Yeah, cause it'll be under development, then the testing, then the fixing, then the retesting, then the evenly timed releases

tropic jay
#

like people talk about new characters or jobs, and if those get announced, its probably cause they planned it at the start

#

but all in all for like even a tutorial

#

it requires getting someones to make it

#

and you can't just tell them "stop focusing onthe projects we discussed, we need to make this tutorial"

#

they'll have to work on it on the side amongst everything else

#

so even if it were to happen, we wouldn't see it for.....months

#

unless you're Pirate Software, then it could take years and 1000s of lines of code that could have been shortened much more easily and still be garbo

#

oh and not be done

proven dust
#

oh no, of course current projects aren't gonna be stopped. it's more of an idea, I think. they'll read these messages and then discuss if a tutorial is even plausible

sleek flicker
#

I wanna add this is a gameplay chance which affect not na and int only, it affects kr, jp, tw, eu.

sage locust
#

you'd also have to have developers actually playing the raid or asking for player feedback to develop tutorial dungeons

#

and atp why don't you just use the existing doc / video guides

proven dust
sleek flicker
#

Even lower

#

Other servers have better start up than us

#

Especially kr is more f2p friendly due to better economy

tropic jay
#

to also put it in perspective, cause i've been learning about game development, especially on companies producing it

#

even if say someone wanted to change 4 frames of animation....they would have to have a meeting with say 13 people to tell them why they need to change it and how it will affect them

sleek flicker
#

Btw it prob got eaten so I d give same suggestion

#

Elsword official website should have guide tab which has community guides made by players

#

For better reach for casual and new players

formal oxide
sage locust
#

didn't we have event for creating guides at some point

#

what happened to that

#

like were the guides used for anything

formal oxide
#

Whether it happens though is a different story and sadly above me

sage locust
#

rip pensivewiggle

formal oxide
sage locust
#

oh

#

i was wondering if mayb content made for that could be reused by adding them to a guide section on official site
if that ever gets made

#

but if there weren't that many submission idk if that'd work

hardy frost
# proven dust Before, there were field quests to actually test out combos and skills, and have...

Yes, there's nothing to help learn piloting anymore in a low stress environment. It's just forcing you to the earliest raid at best, the latest raids at worst. Either way, a new player is going to have a bad time since they lack experience/knowledge of even how to make their character move well.

The quick start event has exacerbated the issue as well since the ui literally forces you to go to the next part of it. There's no opportunity to even hop into free training to get a bare bones idea of how your skills work. Even outside quick start, things die in a skill or two until like Elysion/Elrianode so you don't even know for certain if you're on the right track with your skills until later down the line where it heavily matters. Which is why I brought up the idea of a basic skill bar (not the optimal rotation, not the traits, nothing else but the skills) under the skills ui to at least point players in the right direction.

I don't believe there's a way to fix the leveling experience at this point and now they're pushing erp levels too which is worsening the skill gap. Having a basic idea of what works presented in-game would at least be helpful I think. Is it a perfect solution? No. Honestly, I have no idea what would be, but there needs to be something in-game to help. This is just what I thought might after playing gachas that have an option to see teams + builds for content.

Yeah, I think I remember my partner saying the level cap at the beginning was around 40/45, if not lower? I joined when the cap was 70, but that was still before skill spam became the playstyle.

sleek flicker
#

Most of the reason is ran guides already exist for unnerfed version. So people. Who made em doesn't wanna bother doing one for nerfed version since its lesser version anyway

#

Doom guide is made before doom was even released from kr videos

proven dust
#

At this point, I don't think the issue can be fixed unless the journey from lv1 to 99 is slower. But with how the game is now, this would be a really bad idea.

still mica
#

in my opinion the lv1~99 shouldn't matter to learn your character

mainly because a lot of classes actually change how they play after getting 3rd job, which makes your experience from lv1~99 kinda useless because now you have to relearn how the class plays post-3rd

hardy frost
#

I ran into the same issue when I used quick start to make an Ain. I'm really bad at Ain and not being able to even go into free training made the struggle so much worse.

Slowing down the leveling experience again or even getting rid of something like quick start wouldn't be healthy, especially when you need to spend who knows how much time on alts for collection purposes.

sleek flicker
#

To learn how to play ur character, its still best to ask someone who already went through it aka veteran player

hardy frost
west zodiac
#

you can always add to free trainingroom where they have the command chains just add the jpgs of the skills in an order with basic roations for each class

#

system in place that can be easily changed

halcyon topaz
still mica
#

unfortunately rotations don't actually exist much. and most especially with how easy it is to fluctuate cooldowns in actual parties because of CDA comps and such

#

so making some form of "rotation" for free training makes no sense, because not many classes have actual rotations, there are skill priorities
but not line ups that are always specific and fixed like a rotation normally would.
so it wouldn't really teach you how to play the class, it would just expose how much KoG thinks a class plays like instead which can possibly be far from reality

jagged turtle
#

While I do like the idea behind ingame information, I do feel like it's up to the player to actually invest some time learning about the game that they want to play in ways that don't rely kog to routinely upkeep

still mica
#

usually yeah that's how it should be, a dev doesn't have obligation to spoonfeed every bits of information and should just leave it up to player interpretation and if a player wants to get better then they look for actual experts of their respective class than a dev who can possibly know so little of the actual game (which is true to many companies nowadays where they don't know their own games most especially the higher ups)

hardy frost
# sleek flicker To learn how to play ur character, its still best to ask someone who already wen...

Respectfully, we all know the discussion against any in-game information boils down to "just ask" and I will not be engaging in that type of discussion going forward since, as we've all seen, it inevitably ends up going in circles and isn't really productive.

I would really just love to see either "(proposed idea) won't work because x, y, z, but here's (alternative idea for in-game information)" or "(proposed idea) might have merit, but (cons)" or something else that won't end up going in circles.

#

I don't think a free training rotation guide would help either since, as pointed out, there are so many variables to one.

I can see how a basic skill bar could end up just being how the devs think a class is played that's far different from reality which is why I also brought up a player voted one as well. But even that has its issues.

Honestly, I do think that people should look up information for any game they're playing, especially if they are struggling, but there seems to be a surprising amount of people who just straight up don't interact with content/resources outside the game as well. There's no real way to present potential solutions without it being something implemented into the game itself.

west zodiac
#

the thing is they dont want any in game info that's the issue because they'll demean it by calling it spoonfed and would rather have the status quo then any new ideas hence why it's been going in circles for a while now no one has yet to add new ideas because it's always ask a vet ask me ask someone. as if that hasnt been an option since day one

soft jungleBOT
#
salttracer has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

west zodiac
#

for a basic skill rotation it's not like players are locked in

#

it's just something basic to get them along the road

#

like debuffs/buffs/ dps skills

hardy frost
halcyon bane
halcyon bane
hardy frost
halcyon bane
hardy frost
hardy frost
# west zodiac for a basic skill rotation it's not like players are locked in

A basic rotation in free training does have potential merit, but, as others stated, there's a lot of factors that go into it hence it'd be a potential nightmare for the devs to figure out what it should look like. I also think if given basic tools (like the skill bar I proposed or some other solution) and time to get experience, a lot of players will figure out a rotation that works.

west zodiac
#

Like for league of legends

#

Build pages you can customize and upload to a system kinda like the board does it for items

#

That way community made and there would be multiple ways and could be updated by the community and updated or downvoted

#

In game so you dont have to look or ask others unless you want further clarification and deeper knowledge of rotations

hardy frost
west zodiac
#

Community lead with more then one way to digest info from multiple sources without having to search discords/or find the right ppl or ppl who even wanna explain things/or explain things correctly

#

Makes ppl wanna try out diff things too as perhaps someone sees something and never thought about it tryst it out

hardy frost
# west zodiac Yeah something with basic knowledge with build orders like what acc ibs or f2p r...

I can see how something like that could work. Though I can see the nightmare if it's put to a vote. There's also the potential for trolling in upvotes, down votes, and the showcase themselves if it's just players showing off their individual builds. But, ultimately, I think something like it would be more helpful than not. A way to combat potential trolling would just be to limit it to builds that have actually cleared certain content.

icy haven
#

It is crazy to expect a new player to learn years-worth of game knowledge to play outdated content. Have you guys tried playing other game that have already existed for years? The guides you will read have game terms that are alien to you and end up not understand most of it. New players play the game to enjoy not read thesis.

Imagine have +11 soa but cant clear berthe raid

The original proposal is clear. Game teach mech of the raid when the game give it's weapon for free. Serpe raid up is not included. End game player's skill set not included. Running tutorial mode (or solo for vets who want that free weap), then solo mode after must be requirements to get the free weapon.

Learn or have minimum exp of the raid to get free weapon... Not get carried hard by someone to get end game gears

#

It is more hand-holding newbies to make other players carry them than force them to learn the game. But for them to learn, incentivice by having resources available in game

still mica
# icy haven It is crazy to expect a new player to learn years-worth of game knowledge to pla...

I honestly fault this to KoG for deciding to gift progression instead of actually making the progression more natural, smooth and easier (but not baby-easy) to go through

imagine you're someone who never heard of els and just suddenly stumbled upon it and said: yeah let's try it

and then you happen to join when there's power punch and u get the soa +11 and you're like
oh is this a newbie welcome type of weapon event?

It's in fact 2nd most endgame wep but you don't know that
you also don't even know how important the +11 is and you just decide to enhance it further haha good bye, back to +0

this would be less at fault of KoG lacking information and more so not bothering to fix their progression and decide to pull the cheaper method of just gifting it without concern

icy haven
#

yeah. speed up progression skips entire learning phase. After 5 dg, you got what? truck loads of new skills. Natural next step: ask community which skill to put. Where to get knowledge about other skills? Where knowledge to know which is brv/str/ten/active/HA/master skill?

tropic jay
# icy haven It is crazy to expect a new player to learn years-worth of game knowledge to pla...

i had to do that when trying out some game that was around for years and had their 6th anniversary a few months ago. only tried it cause it looked neat. i looked at guides and saw terms i wouldn't know. know what i did?

i asked. i also played the game. still do even. dont understand everything still but for playing it casually im doing fine. people were glad to help and give me advice as a new player. they use shorthand for a term or character im not sure of? ask if they are referring to this, or what it means so i know for the future, and they answered.

again, people are willing to help, but people need to be receptive and willing to learn. the game wont tell me who to use, what skills or equipment to use, or what to spend my money on, ingame or otherwise. and they shouldnt. let me choose that or decide if i want to ask someone else

icy haven
#

i agree about game wont tell players who to use, which equipment, what skills etc. I am not even asking game to disclose advance info (like freezing count and how to make freeze longer). Just basic mechs of outdated raid.

They want to ask community, go. Newbies will definitely come in community to ask tips and clarifications of something that they dont understand. But i dont think it is fun to start end game then learn things backward

proven dust
#

see how difficult it is to learn mechanics? I would really appreciate some sort of tutorial.

formal oxide
#

I believe the difference for that is it being a regular dungeon, or at least one with an entry limit, versus a raid. Unlike Raids which do have resurrection limits, this one does not, so you can go in freely with little issue and keep trying till you clear.

#

I know one of the issues presented here has been mainly for Raid Dungeon Content, which has more consequences for failing versus a regular dungeon

still mica
#

the kinda ppl that give this """""advice""""" are generally people who also don't know the mechanics

because they never faced them because they just have the power to nuke the content or have only experienced parties that nuke it and believe that any party is just naturally gonna wipe the content easily to not care about mechanics either way.

proven dust
#

I see. But I still feel kinda brushed aside. Like, I'm watching videos and reading up on this stage, and it seems really difficult.

If I'm planning to do this on my own, or even try to help other new people, saying, "just dps" doesn't help me.

And, while yes this is a regular dungeon, I've had this response when I ask about raids too. (Although I asked in-game, and the community in-game may be different than here.)

#

And yes, conversation before is about raid content.

I'm slightly segueing into my personal issue about the "people who don't want to learn" and "people who don't senpai well"...if that message came across coherently(?)

I still stand by my opinion that there's nothing wrong with the senpai event itself. It's more of a community communication problem.

mighty venture
#

I feel like a lot of the issues too (at least with the newer players / ppl who didn’t play when content was released) is they themselves didn’t have to actually go through the mechs and the struggle so when ppl ask they’re just like Shrug

old nexus
# proven dust And yes, conversation before is about raid content. I'm slightly segueing into ...

idk i do think something with the event is not entirely working if it's not fulfilling its purpose
though i guess if the purpose is just to clear new players (which i guess is why it's called carry) then it's technically doing its job. but i think that ends up with players like you who are dissatisfied that they can keep interacting with others and not get the help they are actually asking for. especially because you are more likely to run into players that are just trying to do the event.

honestly i sympathize with you, i know a lot of people (me included) have mentioned that vets often do try to help but get stuck with players that don't listen, but that's no reason why your experience should be to get constantly met with brick walls.
anyway you're not alone about it. i talked with someone else earlier today that was having the same problem, they couldn't get the senpais to slow down and help them.

sleek flicker
# hardy frost Respectfully, we all know the discussion against any in-game information boils d...

Respectfully u re free to not wanna engage with us like how I choose to not engage with salt tracer anymore. I didnt debunk the idea of putting skill bar in the command section because I dont think its too bad. I debunked idea of tutorial with at least 12 reason including cons overwhelmingly press pros. We give u cond, u gives but it ll help the 2% and it looped. I even gave other suggestions that d actually help newbies without kog or nexon dont need to spend their resources for something that may or may not help minority part of the newbies. 2ndly respectfully some game genres have some things going for them. Moba is 5v5, u cant solo it. Story games are story. Darksouls cant have easy mode and mmorpg type of games are community game which u have to interact with community which is outside source. You cant just solo a mmorpg. For the accusation of blaming us for defaulting "this" to other threads when the other thread feedback was "let's make this f2p game into subscription based" ofc I ll be against it as genuine "f2p". I won't talk about it in this thread since its not about this one

sleek flicker
#

And for others who didn't get good answers to questions they asked. This game have dead hours too. Even tho NA isnt actually NA, NA is still majority and this is official server. Ofcourse there d be people who ll answer u with bad answers or weird answers. Majority ll still answer in good manner

#

And when I look now, I see someone actually showed u better answer in question chat

#

Guilds ll help even more. Thats why we suggest getting into active Guilds like Chaldea, NBK, Story, etc. Since they have their own question chats which won't get drowned like the one in here. Story even has their own "academy" system, if they didnt delete it after I used it.

#

Like I said elsword is community game, use the community

west zodiac
# sleek flicker Respectfully u re free to not wanna engage with us like how I choose to not enga...

No I didn't say it would just help 2% I said via figure of speech wise thst if it only helped a single person then it's better to have it then not. Now realistically it would help more ppl but because the system doesn't exist you or I cannot argue the semantics sadly. And most often the reasons you guys have is because it would be "spoonfeeding" demeaning a process designed to help newer players by introducing them to content that is considered not ran by a majority of the community. You guys would rather gatekeep and keep the status quo then bring up anything new and would rather someone struggle to find someone to give them info that might not be right or something they have to stop playing the game to figure out. But ignoring the fact that you guys are still stuck on an imaginary "it would only help 2%" number you pulled outa no where. Honestly because "I had to learn it this way as such they do to." Is so next level cope it isn't even funny. So perhaps when you guys introduce something new to the convo that is a system then it is what it is I've only heard disagreement but never hey let's make this improvement or new system. It's just games shouldn't have to. Vets this vets that guide this guide that. As if we don't already have that already and clearly it's failing so perhaps next time before talking from a stand point like you've got some higher ground to stand on please do us both a favor and add something that is new to the convo

sleek flicker
#

Bro its not even funny u cant understand what we re telling u. You completely ignored the whole part of how making tutorial isnt free

west zodiac
#

I get thst

#

It's in the talks

sleek flicker
#

This is a company game

#

Not an indie game

west zodiac
#

There will always be a cost to everything

sleek flicker
#

When kog or nexon decides to make a content

#

Which tutorial ll take good amount of recourses btw

#

Like kayne mentioned 3 times

#

They need to gain something for that

#

Tutorial doesnt provide any concrete evidence that it ll gain them more money than they spent

west zodiac
#

Sure it would take resources however it would have lasting effects past present and future

sleek flicker
#

Risk is too much for possible reward being too little

#

Thats the thing you can't prove that

west zodiac
sleek flicker
#

Possible loss of money outweighs possible gain

west zodiac
#

We do not have defined ways to say it won't or will

west zodiac
#

It still the same outcome

sleek flicker
#

Tutorial doesnt give guaranteed solution they ll stay

#

Thats the problem

#

Like I said

west zodiac
#

Neither does it say it won't either you guys are so mind made up about "yes factually even though this is a hypothetical system that it wont."

sleek flicker
#

If u can show me a research or article that putting tutorial ll make 50% of newbies who quit ll stay

#

Then I m all for it

west zodiac
#

It's something that would have to exist first in order to say yeah or nay

sleek flicker
#

But u re completely ignoring the fact that this company

#

They cant just go lets try this

#

U need to understand the suggestions we give should satisfy both us and kog at the same time

#

Kog isnt charity

west zodiac
#

I already conceded it'll cost time or money but like I said it'll have lasting effects its not just a one and done

sleek flicker
#

U re assuming it ll, there is too less of a proof

west zodiac
#

It is Intended to help future newer players

sleek flicker
#

U re assuming people who wants to learn is majority of newbies

west zodiac
#

Intended key word

sleek flicker
#

"Assuming" is the word

west zodiac
#

Even if they've been here for years it doesn't matter as it's a resource that can be repeated in game to help newer or current players

#

They don't have to be newbies

sleek flicker
#

Let me put it this way

#

I have been playing this game for so long gods know

#

I saw too many people quit

#

Non of their reason was lack of tutorial

#

U can say regional pricing ll help game bcs I can give u proof that a lot of people said they d load up if prices weren't this expensive

#

But the amount of people I saw who requested tutorial is 4 and all is here u included

#

U need to give me or kog concrete proof that majority of newbies ll stay if they add tutorial

#

So kog actually ll take the risk of spending resources

#

U can open thread on #1062909054181183549 and see how many support it gets

#

Bcs last time we opened we request regional pricing, it got a lot of support

#

I have a lot of problems with how kog manages this game too btw but I still understand suggestions or fixes should benefit both kog and community

#

Btw no I m not close minded. I actually told a lot of my friends about this argument and asked their opinions too. To see if there is something I missed. But from all the convos we had from my logic I dont see tutorial as effective way to keep newbies.

west zodiac
#

That's honestly up to them to decide. And I'll say this I've played this game since S1 when we had very little and leveling was a pain. I've also seen tons of ppl leave and go for many a reason. Raid being on of them. The frustration the rage the no help the gatekeepers and gatekeeping Nixon and kog not nerfing raids fast enough like berthe on release wasn't nerfed for almost like a year and it wasn't till they added CL did it get better because he could ignore the punishment for failing a mech.

sleek flicker
#

Raids being fundamentally wrong design isnt about tutorial. I know 20-4 inside out and still hate it. Bcs I still think its flawed design.

#

And raids shouldn't get nerfed too fast either. Raids being too easy be boring too

west zodiac
sleek flicker
#

My point is as I stand out. Risk of spending resources isnt worth possible rewards. If u can prove that. I m ok to put tutorial until serp. I ll still disagree to put tutorial on end game

#

I hope we agreed on our opinions 🫱

west zodiac
#

Yeah I get the end game tutorial past like a year of it being out and I can say no tutorial for challenge as it's just that hard mode content

west zodiac
sleek flicker
#

My suggestion stand of putting guides on official channels like discord, website, YouTube for easier reach

#

Raiden said he forwarded it. So we shall see

west zodiac
#

Fingers crossed although perhaps in game links like they do with their twitch or discord

#

I know it's kinda like bruh but some ppl really are that stubborn

frank spoke
halcyon topaz
#

Like theres no way you're saying we cannot touch on the effects of adding a new system in a game without adding said system first

#

Like might as well release every idea that anyone has into the game because you dont know if itll be good or not

#

By your logic i could say 'we should make chlorite seeds 200 usd each' and then you couldnt argue it because theres no precedent

dire crag
#

Guide wise might be more productive to make the guides we have here on the server more visible
Other than that, people are arguing in circles and this is getting nowhere
I've helped newbies and returnees before (even though I've never qualified as a senpai) and well, most times people are looking for free carries... which isn't really a problem if they try to pull their weight
I've taught berthe hands-on too (my poor fledgelings got to see the backroom mech and it scared them) but well, there’s this whole "ask people if they know mechs before starting"
What I see is mostly a communication problem, people don't check if the pt knows mechs, sups don't check who's taking what (gexa, sage), people rush to be the freezer when the priority isn't them...
I know taking rude people who don't listen is annoying, but we all need to make at least a small effort to comunicate

halcyon topaz
halcyon topaz
#

like you're immediately contradicting yourself

halcyon topaz
# west zodiac Nothing in life is fre

theyre not going to pay people to spend their time to program in a tutorial of questionable utility that might even cause a large portion of their endgame players to quit

#

its just not lucrative

halcyon topaz
#

and by your own logic why is it up to you do decide whether its 'better' or not

halcyon topaz
# halcyon topaz its just not lucrative

kog is a 'for profit' company. if you cannot wrap your head around that concept then i mean you probably shouldnt be making suggestions in the first place

vestal nexus
#

Some people think KoG can just pull resources out of nowhere and magically implement an in game hand holding system 🤣

#

Dedicating resources and manpower for couple months isn’t cheap, with little potential for it to actually do something. Cost-effect wise, not worth it, especially if they can do almost the same thing for a lot cheaper, which is having guides on their official websites.

halcyon topaz
#

and even then that takes resources because they have to hire someone to do content checking

#

and then someone else to edit their websites

vestal nexus
#

At least its faster than thinking of a way to do it in game, coding, translating, updating, visual etc

#

And cost less

#

And the one doing the checking and editing wont intefere with the coding progress for other actual contents

#

While giving even more information

halcyon topaz
#

its a much more realistic suggestion than making a tutorial mode anyway

vestal nexus
#

Idk it just seem superior if they actually want to do it

west zodiac
#

That is objectively a true statement

west zodiac
#

Listen the get good type mentality isn't helping Clearly based off of what people have said it's not working

#

And funnily enough most of the people that are complaining about quitting because there's a tutorial in the game are people that won't even be affected by it to begin with if we make it so it's not for the current content nor is it for challenge

#

I know people will look at me and think poorly of me because I'm trying to advocate for the newer or returning or current player who is struggling but you know what I'm not Politeling them or making it seem as if they're being spoonfed Which is also the littering terminology To try to help the community at large Rather than using a fishing rod a.k.a. talking to someone 1 on 1 wouldn't we want to cast a net to catch more fish A.k.a. A tutorial that can help regardless of the size or the amount of people in the community

#

But yes past the price or the time commitment to make this tutorial As this is a hypothetical to begin with I think realistically It's something at least worth even talking about

halcyon topaz
#

right?

west zodiac
# vestal nexus Some people think KoG can just pull resources out of nowhere and magically imple...

Whether it be a guide and someone talking you through it or the game it doesn't matter it's essentially the same thing the handholding and the spoon feeding and the demeaning terminology which you use makes no sense because even a new person has to go through that sort of thing unless they want to do it blind but guess what the community is too small in the early to mid game to even attempt to do things blind it's not realistic and honestly you should kind of drop saying it that way The

#

It makes you come off a lot worse than you honestly should

halcyon topaz
west zodiac
# halcyon topaz kog is a 'for profit' company. if you cannot wrap your head around that concept ...

No I understand that kog is a 4 profit company however because this is a hypothetical we can not for certain say the pros or negatives I don't understand I get it that it will cost time resources money and things like that however like I have said it's future proofing positive or negative it's still future Proofing And I get it it's something that isn't Known to either help or not but the thing is if we're just stuck on it not helping or it will help at the same time then we'll never have cure Wells if the issue is that we are so concerned with the price or time of a certain system then why even talk about this to begin with sure there's costs and time management but also at the same time let's be real here it's going to happen regardless or not And to be honest with you I've put this out enough to the point where it doesn't even matter at this point if KOG does implemented I'll be happy if they don't guess what it is But at least I tried to let it be out there it's just up to them and if they want to do it so be it it won't affect me just like it won't affect you guys

halcyon topaz
#

im not sure why we're circling back to it not being that when we've also stated issues for it existing only up to a certain point

west zodiac
#

Because not having a tutorial or having a tutorial is the difference between someone playing the game or not very arbitrary and honestly makes them look quite childish in my opinion

halcyon topaz
halcyon topaz
#

im just using your own arguments against you atp because in no world do they all hold at the same time

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
#

ok so why were you allowed to say 'well its not objective' when i said its objectively a bad idea

#

but when you say its objectively true that itll have long term impacts i cant say no it wont

#

what you said was the tutorial has never been implemented before so no one knows what kind of impact it will have

west zodiac
# halcyon topaz ok so why were you allowed to say 'well its not objective' when i said its objec...

No because the thing is you can't objectively say it's a bad idea because guess what it doesn't exist We're not debating That it's an objective bad reason or not if it's good or not at this point we're debating as what was brought up which was will there be lasting effects and yes there will be that's why I called it an objective statement and if you're not willing to put in the mental leg work to look past of the oh I'm trying to get you you would understand that the objective statement was directed at will it have lasting effects whether good or negative none of us can say that's the thing it's all hypothetical

halcyon topaz
#

idgi

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
west zodiac
# halcyon topaz but then you also say 'it will have a lasting impact' or 'itll have a positive i...

You me I already said that it will either have or lasting effects or it will be negative or positive it doesn't matter if it's a positive effect even if it's a negative effect at least it was something worth trying past usual the status quo is not hething and you know what if it doesn't work it doesn't work if it works it works the thing is at least in this space as it is now it's not even implemented yet But at least it's worth doing or worth talking about at this current point But if it's not implemented like I said it won't affect any of us because a majority of us are at any game already

halcyon topaz
#

ok but how do yk itll have an impact at all

#

if its not already implemented

west zodiac
#

Clearly by the amount of push back that you guys have been giving me over something as simple as a tutorial

halcyon topaz
#

clearly by the amount of pushback that we've been giving you we collectively think its a bad idea

#

thus its objectively bad

#

is your logic

#

being applied on our end

west zodiac
#

No you me the Amount of people disagreeing with me doesn't objectively make you correct you seem to believe a lot in the oh well we all believe this as such it is a true statement that is a logical fallacy

halcyon topaz
#

then the number of people arguing against you doesnt objectively make the thing we're arguing about default to having a lasting impact either

west zodiac
#

Because if that's the case a lot of the people that are talking from your guy's point of view have come off with things that are demeaning that make fun of people that might be struggling and just because that you can do it doesn't mean that others can and honestly I've been pushing for something that's different whereas you guys are pushing the same old thing that is why this conversation keeps going in circles because instead of pushing new things other than Hey let's link guides in the official which guess what even if there are guides in the official it's going to still have But it's going to still happen

halcyon topaz
#

we're going in circles here because your argument loops itself

#

if one thing is true

#

the other isnt

#

but you're trying to prove them both true at the same time

west zodiac
#

No you mean no I'm not In fact I've already said that guess what it will have lasting effects regardless and you guys keep saying negative negative there will be negative consequences well guess what having negative consequences is lasting impact

halcyon topaz
#

i dont quite see the difference

halcyon topaz
west zodiac
halcyon topaz
#

and you havent proven otherwise

#

whats the issue

west zodiac
#

The fact that you won't even support a game pass the point of them trying to help people that are struggling regardless of it being content that you can run or not

#

Because you deem it as lower or it'll make things too easy

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
#

you deem us as lower for not wanting to be handheld within a game whats the difference

halcyon topaz
#

oh and also if you're gonna call me by name could you at least write it properly

west zodiac
# halcyon topaz you deem us as lower for not wanting to be handheld within a game whats the diff...

There's no shame in running content without a tutorial in fact that's the way that I usually do things too as I like to run blind and I like to experience the date the rate day one and then if there's something I don't understand I look at a guide however just because that is the case or just because there might be a tutorial that people might quit just because of a whatever personal vendetta or opinion they have on this matter essentially trying to not even want AQO regardless time cost if if it's even implemented or not if they'll have positive or negative impacts it doesn't matter just the simple fact that people are so vehemently against having something in order to help someone without having to leave the game or to Is port to look it up online

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
halcyon topaz
west zodiac
# halcyon topaz but you're forcing said tutorial on people anyway?

Well if it's implemented the way that we have kind of gone through and lowered it down the tutorial would only be 4 For the pinnacle of the player base and I did concede that having a tutorial for current content is kind of wacky although I do think that eventually a year past the release date that it should have a tutorial to assist people that haven't cleared don't understand or are just coming up

#

My Text-to-speech messed up

halcyon topaz
#

then the people who rely on said tutorial just wont clear the latest content for a year

#

and that brings back the initial issue of if theyre gonna get gatekept why not just have it happen earlier where theres less issues

west zodiac
#

It's a tool not a crutch

#

But if people use it as a crutch so be it that's human nature

halcyon topaz
#

it is a crutch because you're forcing people to go through it

halcyon topaz
west zodiac
#

No it's not a crutch because I'm forcing people to go through it It's to give knowledge base beforehand to assist those who needed the most

#

It doesn't instantly clear normal nor does it instantly clear the raid there is still a lot of work that goes into clearing a raid past just information

halcyon topaz
#

no if you force a tutorial upon people then they get taught that its fine to just rely on said tutorial to do content

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
west zodiac
#

And like I said you honestly can't control what People do anyways There are some people who act like that right now that cannot do past serp whether that be because Sear of the community fear of gate keeping gearing issues piloting but I would rather those people have a place in the community trying to at least get up there than I would Them have no help whatsoever Inside the game without consulting people that they may not want to consult to begin with because they are afraid of the repercussions of failing.

sage locust
#

like tbh the text prompts in game aren’t perfect but it’s not like a tutorial mode is going to have perfectly clear instructions either

west zodiac
west zodiac
#

It's work but so is making the system to begin with

sage locust
#

why would kog spend resources recording new videos when we have existing video guides

halcyon topaz
#

you do realize until you address the contradictions that i pointed out in your arguments, your arguments dont really mech much right

sage locust
#

like tldr what exactly does a tutorial mode dungeon fulfill that reading guides / asking for help + running solo raid doesn’t

west zodiac
west zodiac
#

Without showing

#

Well atleast for guides vids perhaps but then again you're not in control of the person on screen

#

So no experience

#

Just comprehension

#

Also solo mode uses mats

sage locust
#

You can still use solo raid to practice mech on your own though?

west zodiac
#

Want to stem the bleeding heck some ppl don't even know what fighters are used for

#

Don't blame them really though they shouldn't exist in thr first place

west zodiac
#

You can literally with practice make it as quick to clear as story

#

Like as in the hero buff

#

Over powers you. You might miss mechs

#

Something you don't want to happen as clearly that defeats the point

halcyon topaz
#

so what you want is for people to be handheld the way through

#

if theres 0 risk of failure then whats the fun

halcyon topaz
#

old mechs get nerfed

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
#

they'd have to update each tutorial each time too

west zodiac
#

Unless they do a heavy nerf anything lower then abyss won't be touched but who knows. For now that's true with things like serp and Doom it's understandable though

#

But majority of the time the nerfs have been statwise

#

Not mech wise

halcyon topaz
#

and btw you STILL have not addressed the contradictions ive pointed out

west zodiac
#

Why are you talking as if everyone is forced to do it remember I said if you clear the content before the tutorial comes out it's no mandatory. And there you go with the demeaning terminology again. What is with this sense of self importance that because it's not made to your self made standards it's baby

#

Like your playing with keyboard for elsword well I play on controller it's so baby that you need a keyboard to play content

halcyon topaz
#

am i the self important one to point out flaws in your argument or are you the self important one for thinking everyone else is wrong because theyre against your point

#

we've stated with clear reasoning why it wont work and you just say 'it will because i said so'

west zodiac
#

But I would rather try for something new than not try at all

halcyon topaz
#

and we're telling you it wont

west zodiac
#

And I know the economics the time the resources whatever this is all hypothetical

#

Well that's the thing It doesn't matter if it will or won't because neither party neither of us can say so

halcyon topaz
#

we're looping back into a contradiction that ive already pointed out

#

that you've yet to address

west zodiac
#

You've added your reasons to the cones and I have added my reasons to the pros if the pros outweigh the cones or the cones outweighs the pros honestly other than just continuing to debate about the topic that's it

halcyon topaz
#

i mean if you wanna look at it that way sure ig

#

clearly im not convincing enough and you also dont want to address my points so

nimble zephyr
#

pros: it will have lasting impact (source? I made it up)
cons: everything else

west zodiac
west zodiac
nimble zephyr
west zodiac
#

i know it's not 100% proof never disagreed it wasnt and if it's over kill then so be it but im telling you now that guides have been out just putting them on an offical website will not solve the issue imo it needs to be an in-game thing it doesnt even need to be a toturial but it needs to be manadtory

west zodiac
# nimble zephyr

thanks for adding to my point btw you've really done wonders for yourself

nimble zephyr
#

yea thank you for contributing so much to the conversation

#

like you've been

#

for the past 3 days

#

circling back and forth

#

and not being able to answer any of the questions

#

and contradict yourself

west zodiac
nimble zephyr
#

wow you can't read what's in the image?

#

do I have to write it in english?

west zodiac
nimble zephyr
#

clearly you don't understand

west zodiac
#

funnily enough i already talked about that

#

that's why it's not worth the going for it anymore

nimble zephyr
#

funnily enough you still contradicted yourself

#

great job

west zodiac
#

speically with someone who wouldnt even be here if a tutrioal would exist so why are you here now

nimble zephyr
#

yea im here because tutorial doesn't exist

#

duh

#

wheres tutorial in elsword right now?

#

yea there isn't cuz they know better than adding it to the game

west zodiac
#

who knows but i really hope they do and if not no hair off my chest

nimble zephyr
#

yea they prob won't unless they are mentally disabled or something

west zodiac
#

but perhaps im reading to much into it

#

i think everyone deserves to exprience the game and if having a tutrioal would do that then so be it. if it makes ppl quit because "back in my day" then grandpa it's time to move on

nimble zephyr
#

wait wait but

#

what makes you the arbitrator of that

west zodiac
#

because ive read all i need to know about how you are just from the small interactions from you and i dont pity you as a gamer just the way you think but it's alright least i accept you unlike how you willing to accept the people that need help keep on readin them guides am i right

#

but enoughs enough keep up that server pow wow eventually we'll both carry on from this lets just hope that something good comes out of this anything at all at this point

nimble zephyr
#

yea reading guide is so hard I need someone to play the game for me too fr

#

heck at this point can we make the game play on it's own

#

it's elsword cookie clicker surely it is successful long term

west zodiac
#

imagine that with more access to something the numbers also increase but it is what it is

image.png image.png
west zodiac
#

i dont care if you clear the content in three hours or you clear it in 1 second

#

you deserve to play the game

foggy violet
west zodiac
#

atleast to exprience

west zodiac
#

it only gets smaller and smaller from here heck we arlready at the if you're not in my private server ill never run with you ever.

#

well atleast that was more true before the nerfs

foggy violet
#

those types of players?

image.png
#

dont deserve to play the hit korean mmorpg game, elsword

west zodiac
#

no atleast to the community he doesnt

#

or certian ppl

halcyon topaz
#

which is something completely natural and fine

west zodiac
#

it is fine but that doesnt mean thoes players just forgo qols becasue the small guy is struggling

#

single player games

#

sure

#

but mmo's that are consistantly changing and trying to matain a player base

halcyon topaz
#

but even in competitive games like fps

west zodiac
#

i dont see any reason to

halcyon topaz
#

the games are NOT going to teach you map layouts

#

or weapon metas

#

etc etc

#

those are for you to figure out

west zodiac
#

and they can for those that can/want to but the same coin there are ppl who dont know/dont care/arent at that skill level who should also be catered to

#

its not playing the game for others

halcyon topaz
west zodiac
nimble zephyr
#

yo the game is so unfair, im hardstuck iron and I suck at playing game but instead of me trying to get better, the game should implement aimhack for bad players to go against good players!!!

west zodiac
#

a good qol that would effect the majority of the community but because muh money

image.png
west zodiac
#

or a tutorial

#

im not saying put a one hit kill on their account\

#

and go through content

#

it's not a cheat to have a tutrial

#

guides=tutorial just written

#

vids are tutorials= just watched

#

but the main issue it's out of the game

halcyon topaz
west zodiac
#

and not mandatory so they can be ignored

west zodiac
#

it's just if they're willing to

#

which they wont just like erp

#

but i dont blame the devs

#

for that issue

halcyon topaz
#

no but how will they implement it without major backlash

west zodiac
#

some person at the top gatekeeping qols for the rest of the community cause they cannot look past their self importance

#

sad state of affairs

halcyon topaz
#

because people ARE going to complain that they already built 2 sets. and before you say just sell on board because other people will need

nimble zephyr
#

no!! people backlashing shouldn't be a crybaby and if you disagree you should just quit the game!!

halcyon topaz
#

think about the supply and demand

#

the supply is going to suddenly increase and not just by a little

#

with demand still being the same

#

meaning you'd just be selling the extra piece for underpriced or not sell it at all

west zodiac
#

the armor is already a year old and yes supply and demand just be happy you get anything out of a set that goes away a year from now

halcyon topaz
#

and im saying people wont be happy with that

west zodiac
#

think about it serp and exa was released august 28th

#

we are almost at the half life cycle markj

#

going by their track record

nimble zephyr
#

bro if you are unhappy with a qol change just quit the game you don't deserve to be playing the game am I right

halcyon topaz
#

like you cannot seriously just say 'just dont be dissatisfied with it' as your solution when its a change that many people will view negatively

west zodiac
#

not just be dissatisfied

#

there are ways around it

#

but it all depends on devbs

halcyon topaz
#

so you want people to build a 2nd armor set

west zodiac
#

and what ppl valuye

halcyon topaz
#

just because they had coh ecs bot before

west zodiac
halcyon topaz
#

char swap ticket

#

ive already addressed the issue of 'just sell it'

#

people wont be happy with that

mighty venture
#

I think tutorial mode is waste of resources that could be used to do other things

#

We had to learn actually doing the dungeon and we taught others that’s literally just how it is

#

There’s already enough hand holding

west zodiac
#

"just how it is" another rip statement

#

stasus quo

mighty venture
#

Do other MMOs have a tutorial for all their raids?

nimble zephyr
#

yea bro elsword needs to be special

#

shouldn't follow other mmos

west zodiac
nimble zephyr
#

🔥

mighty venture
#

Every other mmo I’ve had to used community guides

west zodiac
#

you're walking down a path ive already had to communicate/talk about and it's still the same old same old

mighty venture
#

Because even if there is a tutorial 99% of the time they kinda suck anyways and others can’t really ask questions etc etc

west zodiac
#

same could be said for anything

mighty venture
#

If people wanna be handheld I don’t think elsword is the game for them

halcyon topaz
#

like if everything sucks then why play

nimble zephyr
#

just cuz every other mmos do it doesn't mean elsword needs to follow it, surely im smarter than the other mmo devs that never thought about this right

mighty venture
#

At its current state this game is extremely complex, being handheld for everything will just get people to be left behind when they eventually have to learn new content. Stuff like being given good enough gear is fine lol but in terms of actual mechanics? When abyss came out it was literally a mechanic check lol

west zodiac
#

handheld bro isnt sitting with someone letting you watch a vid or guide while walking them through ever mech cause you cannot go in blind at this point isnt handholding. you guys just get caught up with the well the vets should be the only source the community this as if we dont already have that and it's not working

mighty venture
#

Oh boy let me look at other games

#

Wow it’s all community guides

west zodiac
#

sure and it's time to make a change

mighty venture
#

I think the change is dumb

nimble zephyr
#

no! elsword needs to be special!!!!!!

mighty venture
#

And shouldn’t exist

#

Because why waste resources

west zodiac
#

welp we disagree have a good one

mighty venture
#

End of the day KOG is a company they would rather let others do the free labour and also

#

For a MMORPG I think community guides are better

west zodiac
#

sadly i'd like to disagree take a look at the confusion that was the doom raid guide shown around day one and to current

#

there is some thing confusing that some ppl get wrong

mighty venture
#

Oh man it’s not like a guide that’s like 50 pages long is confusing at first

halcyon topaz
#

i dont think an in game tutorial will be any less confusing tbh

mighty venture
#

^ either way it’s an info dump

west zodiac
#

one that you have to experince and do the mechs themselves it doesnt teach the whole thing but atleast you come out of it with more then you did cause you cannot go forward in mechs without success

#

but then again who says this or thta

#

pro or con

mighty venture
#

square go practice mechs and bash head into wall in solo

west zodiac
#

theirs*

#

but least it's something more then what we have now

#

as what we have now isnt working

mighty venture
#

So with berthe as an example

#

The game teaching you about skill tiers ok sure lol

#

But teaching you mechs

#

It’s literally all extremely telegraphed

halcyon topaz
mighty venture
#

It’s literally sooooooo telegraphed that I could be new and know how to dodge things

mighty venture
#

But all of the raids are VERY telegraphed

#

For actual game mechanics? Yeah they can do a better job at explaining stuff like skill tiers and whatnot I agree

west zodiac
#

very telegraphed>ppl keep wiping?

halcyon topaz
#

well just because people are wiping doesnt mean its not telegraphed

mighty venture
#

Maybe if the game taught about skill tiers which is what I just mentioned

#

We wouldn’t have that issue

#

And again

#

Howls?

nimble zephyr
#

you shouldn't blame the game for people not reading lmao

mighty venture
#

extremely telegraphed

#

I literally have enough time to swap to a res title

west zodiac
#

newer players dont know that tech

mighty venture
#

Before he howls

#

Ok and?

#

Are you ignoring my point?

#

Because that’s exactly what you’re doing right now

nimble zephyr
#

at this point make game shout out to you through your headphone "DONT PRESS TENACITY SKILLS"

west zodiac
#

no peter you're talking from a point of already having knowledge to begin with

nimble zephyr
#

ong

halcyon topaz
mighty venture
#

Ok so maybe you’re ignoring what I said?

#

Are you intentionally tuning out the part where I mention they can do a better job of explaining skill tiers?

#

Or what

#

Because you’re literally doing that

west zodiac
#

no because that isnt what i was talking about did i mention that in my response?

#

i dont disagree with skill teirs

mighty venture
#

Because berthe even says he’s reacting to x skill tier?

#

I don’t know what else to say except it literally tells you what you’re doing wrong

#

And that’s not the games fault?

#

Like yeah they can explain skill tiers ahead of time sure

#

But besides that

#

I don’t see where I’m wrong even though I have the knowledge I have

#

Yes you can explain skill tiers beforehand and I believe they should sure but otherwise it’s just like you’re intentionally ignoring my arguments lol

west zodiac
#

not introducing a system that is an insta wipe cause newer players dont know and then blaming them for it is ludicrous. now with that system in place i can agree to that following statement. so in the way the game is now it is the games fault

#

it's like not introducing dodge roll in darksouls

#

some will find out

mighty venture
#

It literally says berthe is reacting to x skill tier

west zodiac
#

going in cicles here peter yes it does say that but until they introduce skill teirs to newer players who've yet to run into content that restricts them from using certain skills its a mute point

#

feita but one shot

mighty venture
#

Ok and what have I mentioned multiple times

halcyon topaz
#

if you went to a library and picked up a book about spiders and you think theyre cool. then you went to australia and decided to pet a wild tarantula only to get a venomous bite, would you blame the library?

mighty venture
#

I’m repeating myself many times now, yes they should introduce skill tiers beforehand during a tutorial or something

#

I don’t disagree with that

west zodiac
#

yes

#

same

mighty venture
#

However when it comes to raids

#

They’re all extremely telegraphed that you don’t really need a tutorial of sorts for them specifically

#

Because it’s all stuff you learn with experience actually doing the raid

halcyon topaz
mighty venture
#

The only part I’d say is harder to see what’s actually happening is 15-6-3 challenge

#

Everything else is just a matter of people not knowing what to do, which is normal and everyone else has been there before

west zodiac
#

challenge would be seperate with no tutorial as it is just that a challenge type mode

west zodiac
mighty venture
#

Sadly I think the game isn’t for them then.

#

What are they gonna do when new content comes out?

sage locust
#

if your reaction is to quit the moment you first wipe to content

#

then i don't think els is the game for you

mighty venture
#

^

sage locust
#

tutorial mode won't fix that

nimble zephyr
#

tell them to go to another mmorpg that has tutorials for raids

#

oh wait

#

there is none

halcyon topaz
west zodiac
#

more ways of helping doesnt hurt

#

and it's not meant to be a catch all

mighty venture
#

What are they gonna do when they’re left behind because they’re not willing to actually learn the content?

#

And they wanna be handheld by a tutorial mode for the content

#

They’re just gonna be left behind and regardless still have to prog with newer players

#

When they can just prog when it comes out and experience the content at its intended difficulty and learn things on the fly and become a better player alongside

west zodiac
#

handheld there it is again

mighty venture
#

There’s also a reason there’s a piloting gap between some people I can name but won’t name drop

#

Because they’re not willing to learn and expirement

#

When they should be

west zodiac
#

regardless

mighty venture
#

They still belong sure but that’s on them

#

If they wanna stay back let me and others who spend our time actually learning the game instead of being handheld deal with each other instead of them

halcyon topaz
#

hes gonna call you out for gatekeeping now

west zodiac
#

Peter what is the deference between a one on one in vc with guides and videos and a tuturiol dungeon

#

it's literally the same thing but one gives exprience without the need to waste mats

mighty venture
#

Because a one on one you can ask questions and learn from the experienced players

west zodiac
#

and get frustrated