THE SILKSONG IS REAL

[hot mango]

Streamers have a chronic inability to learn from observing cause and effect (joke)

[brave flower]

do they by any chance play fighting games

[autumn kettle]

no idea for most of them

[inland wave]

Streamers Pick Up The Extra Silk Challenge

[autumn kettle]

can confidently say no to one

i have also observed a non-streamer friend do this

[hot mango]

You can spam the dash attack with reaper but that depends on your playstyle

[autumn kettle]

it is a tool that should be barred until people stop crutching with it

[hot mango]

For example if you’re fighting a boss that has a Respect attack, then yeah dipping in, dash attacking, and dipping out is valid

But if all you’re doing is the dash attack without incorporating the pogos or a skirmisher playstyle then that won’t end well

[brave flower]

depends on the respect attack

do not pull that shit against last judge

you will get antiaired for your life savings

[hollow elm]

horizontal sweeps are ideal for reaper dash

[hot mango]

Anyway I think if Reaper were available later in the game the same problem would occur with a different crest

[brave flower]

with other crests it wouldnt be as bad bc the dash attack leaves you further back

[hollow elm]

Wanderer comes to mind, though it would be eating shit from contact damage/poor spacing.

[hot mango]

Probably Wanderer for those who discover the follow up attack

And then Hunter for those who don’t and wanna be liberal with their healing. Then Beast for those who don’t wanna be liberal with their healing but do not fully grok the opportunity cost + playstyle they’re taking in

It would be more diverse but probably eventually converge onto one dominant streamer crest

It’s weird how the process of trying to be entertaining turns off your brain functions- like I’m sure that would happen to me if I tried streaming. And Silksong is a game most fun when you try different approaches each attempt + runback, which requires said higher brain functions

[umbral canyon]

and that's that. still have a few secret bosses + 2 spools, besides that it's all charms that i don't care about i'm pretty sure

missed a few hunter's journal entries along the way, i think i missed my shot at ||shakra||? probably a few others in there

[autumn kettle]

ye

||shakra and unlost garmond||

[umbral canyon]

yeah i'm at uh, 225 entries unlocked

which, it says there are up to 235 total in my journal. didn't the trailer say 'over 240'?

[hot mango]

||Fun fact: fighting Normal Garmond makes the Lost Garmond fight hurt more :,D||

[umbral canyon]

hell of a finish to that fight though, will say

[autumn kettle]

i missed one

||regular garmond||

but that's the total

i assume the rest are gonna get added with post-1.0

[hoary tulip]

wait that's weird

if you miss stuff Forever then it gets removed from the max

[hollow elm]

(Act 3) ||Path above Citadel is kicking my ass, and probably trying to clear it undergeared. Plasmium overcharge is making it much less awful.||

[umbral canyon]

right, i know hollow knight had uh, hive knight added afterwards and some dream bosses?

[autumn kettle]

the Hive, some dreamers, everything Lifeblood, the grimm troupe, godhome (with all of those exclusive bosses), uhh

one or two other smaller content patches i think

[umbral canyon]

oh, there was no lifeblood in the game at all? and i didn't realise the hive as a whole area was added in the update

i thought it was just the knight

[hot mango]

That is not true

It was just called the Lifeblood update, afaik it did little to nothing with actual Lifeblood

[autumn kettle]

the hive was either added or massively overhauled with lifeblood

[hot mango]

Yeah Hive Knight was added

[autumn kettle]

am i delusional?

i swear to god 1.0 had no lifeblood at all

[hot mango]

Lifeblood was 100% in the game before the Lifeblood update

[hot mango]

The big things Lifeblood update did was add Hive Knight and overhaul Traitor Lord. It didn’t do much significant outside that

And change some damage + charm + stagger numbers that too

And patched out D-Dive on Flukemarm

The only thing Lifeblood did related to Lifeblood was nerf Joni’s Blessing

[wanton bone]

Huh, so close to reaching the equivalent of deep focus Grubsong+grubfather’s blessing in late game, with ||Weavelight, Multibinder, and Druid’s eye||

It’s 1 silk off from being sustainable. Though since harpoon costs silk, it’s probably not close in practical terms.

[hollow elm]

Kinda desperate for a tool that generates more skil on hits, but I'm pretty sure that would be a tier 1/tier 0 pick with how tight the silk econ is.

[hot mango]

I don't think there's a single tool that does that, and if there is it'll be DLC

[wanton bone]

A red tool that supercharged silk gain for a bit would be cool.

[hot mango]

There’s several indirect silk gain boosts- Druid Eye, Weavelight, the (niche act 2 quest spoilers) ||Bind Reserve||

[autumn kettle]

oh yeah, that'd be a neat place to put it

[hot mango]

That sounds busted as hell

Oh wait hang on no it isn’t

I misread

… isn’t that Flea Brew technically?

It gives you quick slash that’s 100% increased Silk Gain if Beast Crest is anything to go off

[hollow elm]

I should probably be trying Flea Brew more, but getting into range with it's duration is rough.

I'm more seeking like x1.5 silk per swing, Reaper gets closest with the boosted mode.

[proud cobalt]

The poison has cool interactions with all the tools.

[hot mango]

UNfortunately, from a maths perspective Poison on any of the buffs is just worse

[proud cobalt]

Explain.

[brave flower]

thats just flintslate

it reduces flintslate's initial damage in exchange for also making attacks inflict poison

[hot mango]

I thought it reduced the effect of Flea Brew and Plasmium Injector?

[proud cobalt]

It's got a neat synergy with Fleabrew, that and Flintslate are neat.

[umbral canyon]

this is reaper's gimmick so i doubt they'll give it to anything else tbh

[brave flower]

its not actually worse bc the poison ticks once immediately

its just the worlds smallest damage increase

[proud cobalt]

But unfortunate if it does make them worse.

[hot mango]

And because Poison doesn't stack it's a net decrease in damage if you're trying to get the most out of the Flintslate Damage

[brave flower]

no it isnt

because the poison ticks the moment you apply it

so you get a reduced flintslate effect and also one tick of poison

so its just slightly better than normal flintslate iirc

[hot mango]

I thought at least 2 ticks of poison had to trigger to outpace a normal Flintslate attack

[brave flower]

i dont think so

[hot mango]

Hold one riker ran the maths one it in chat

[proud cobalt]

I mean the idea behind it is cool, and doesn't poison Fleabrew also create a poison cloud around you?

[brave flower]

yes

[hot mango]

So base damage is 21, Flintslate is 32, and Poison Flintslate is 27/3/3/3, so you do need 2 ticks for it to outpace the damage

[brave flower]

oh ok

poison makes plasmium phial Weird, flea brew Do One Small Extra Thing, and flintslate Marginally Worse

actually wait

how fast does poison tick

[hot mango]

Like 1 tick every second or two from what i've observed, it's not fast

Also Poison Flintslate stops setting people on fire and fire has its own passive damage ticks even if it doesn't trigger against all enemies

[brave flower]

i wonder if architect multihits each apply an immediate poison tick

[hot mango]

I don't think that's how it would work

[proud cobalt]

It would be... profoundly powerful if so.

Well, maybe not profoundly.

But according to previously poison doesn't stack.

Does it work with Flintslate? I presume not either.

[autumn kettle]

hm, okay, chat

outsourcing this one, hopefully

i'm only 2h into the run, and all i've got left is high halls

what's the fastest power boost y'all can think of?

because i am not good enough to want to suffer through that gauntlet at needle 3 no tools, and i've got some leeway left

[brave flower]

buzzsaws?

[autumn kettle]

i already grabbed threadstorm, but i'm trying to wrack my brain for if there's something else achievable or if i should just like

grab wings

oh hm

i do have some craftmetal left

[brave flower]

yeah buzzsaws then
absolutely

[autumn kettle]

how much are they?

i mean the problem with saws

[brave flower]

340ish i wanna say?

[autumn kettle]

is that it's high halls gauntlet

at 0 kits

not exactly scaled for that point

[brave flower]

archi also has a kit

for 450

[autumn kettle]

lol

450

[hot mango]

Could you theoretically rush ||Shakra's quest if you have to go there later?||

[autumn kettle]

i'd need to pick up a couple cash influxes

god no lmfao

[brave flower]

OH

PLASMIUM PHIAL

[autumn kettle]

a: i don't have to go there later

b: i have 0 maps

maps are slow and cost money

[hot mango]

Nevermind

[autumn kettle]

appreciate the thought, however

[brave flower]

wormways arent too dangerous as theres infinite silk farming

[hot mango]

Is ||Rosary Cannon an option?||

[brave flower]

and phial is great for survivability

[autumn kettle]

no simple keys

[brave flower]

fuck

[autumn kettle]

yeah, but survivability isn't really the issue there

[brave flower]

cant you get there w/o one?

[autumn kettle]

it's damage

[brave flower]

ah

neeeeeeedle strike?

[autumn kettle]

this is what i'm working with rn lmao

[hot mango]

Beast Crest?

[autumn kettle]

i accidentally picked up the quill in front of trobbio

oh, beast might be it

would have to run through march though

[brave flower]

beast is a good call

is this steel soul

[hot mango]

Oh yeah Beast Crest would be too big a time sink

[autumn kettle]

nah

there's no steel soul speedrun achievement

[hot mango]

Because of the ant gauntlet, and shakra wouldn't be there to help

[autumn kettle]

just steel soul 100%

[brave flower]

oh ok

[autumn kettle]

ant gauntlet shouldn't be too dire

[brave flower]

then like

[autumn kettle]

i swung around for threadstorm

it's just a kinda long section

[hot mango]

It's not gonna be a danger, but it will take time

[autumn kettle]

yeah, got 3 hours though

[brave flower]

can you go back to greymoor

[autumn kettle]

||lace 2 and mother silk|| should be less than half an hour put together

even for my skill level

[brave flower]

its genuinely shockingly fast to farm rosaries there

[hot mango]

Did you ever manage to collect Silkspeed Anklets or was that too much of a diversion?

[autumn kettle]

but that's still 2+ with leeway

way too far out of the way i think

those are in the far field weavenest, yeah?

[brave flower]

my advice is like

[hot mango]

yeah, and that figures

[autumn kettle]

i could do it now, but

[brave flower]

• greymoor
• rosaries
• saws + kit

[autumn kettle]

not sure it'd save me any time going out of my way there

could do that

[brave flower]

there should also be a crafting kit in... forge daughter shop?

pollip pouch probably takes way too long

[hot mango]

pollip pouch would take forever

[brave flower]

oh and pick up another craftmetal if you can

[autumn kettle]

pouch is also a nothingburger dps increase

[brave flower]

so you can get cogflies

[autumn kettle]

second craftmetal would be very out of the way

[brave flower]

damn

[autumn kettle]

unless there's one in citadel i'm forgetting

[hot mango]

Do you think you can do enough tool pickups to grab Architect?

[autumn kettle]

god no

[brave flower]

fuck no

[autumn kettle]

that's like 30 tools

i have two

[brave flower]

its 25 but yea

[hot mango]

Oh I thought it was ten whoops

[brave flower]

did u get any bellways

[autumn kettle]

just bellhart and grand

to get needle upgrades

[brave flower]

shit ok

do you start out with bone bottom's

[autumn kettle]

yeah

[brave flower]

and did you get the craftmetal there

[autumn kettle]

nnno

money though

greymoor farming would take a while

[brave flower]

ok sick that ones 80 rosaries

[autumn kettle]

farming for like 500 beads is uh

not fast

[hot mango]

No you get Bonebottom and The Marrow by default

[brave flower]

it genuinely is in greymoor

that one spot gives 29 rosaries in like 2 seconds

30 seconds max

[autumn kettle]

it's like 15-20

not fast enough

i've done it plenty on my main save

just

[brave flower]

~18 reps for all those rosaries

[autumn kettle]

that's a chunk of time to go and do another chunk of time

[hot mango]

Beast might genuinely be your best bet despite the time sink then

It is near impossible to outpace Beast's DPS

[brave flower]

getting back there shouldnt be too bad

bellhart's close enough

and then thats ~6 minutes to get all the rosaries

[hot mango]

Would've probably been good to grab beast at the start of the run but like what can you do?

[autumn kettle]

yeah

[brave flower]

run back to bellhart, grab the craftmetal from bonebottom, back to the citadel, grab the crafting kit and the saws and you should be ok

[autumn kettle]

probably gonna try to swooce beast after i open up the high halls shortcuts

[brave flower]

you can get cogflies no matter what

[hot mango]

As an aside, Beast is probably gonna be a massive speedrunner tool despite being so out of the way

[brave flower]

since its just 1 Craftmetal + Bench In High Halls iirc

[hot mango]

There's craftmetal in High Halls?

[brave flower]

no

[autumn kettle]

nah i just picked up the marrow one

[brave flower]

topple alr has craftmetal

[autumn kettle]

just in case

[brave flower]

theres also 1 in blasted steps

[autumn kettle]

never ended up using it, but i have plenty of time

[hot mango]

yeah but there it's a choice betweeen saw or cogflies

[autumn kettle]

i didn't go through blasted steps lol

[proud cobalt]

Druid soup is tasty.

[brave flower]

oh rip

but still theres another in bonebottom

for 80

[autumn kettle]

definitely for 100% runs, yeah

[hot mango]

Lemme guess, ||wisp woods?||

[brave flower]

youll get 80 rosaries in like 2 seconds in the citadel

so even without the crafting kit, cogflies + saws will be large for your dps

saws are nutty for arenas

[autumn kettle]

no, phantom

[hot mango]

Yeah probably not any% runs, the time save is almost exclusively in boss fight and you can skip most of those. Not even ||Trobbio + the High Halls Arena time saves|| can outweigh that time sink

[brave flower]

iframes skill crazy good

[hot mango]

Oh right that's ||double jump|| gated I forgot

[autumn kettle]

is it?

i think it might just be climb gated

[hot mango]

I went there recently, it 100% is

[autumn kettle]

ah shame

[hot mango]

wait actually I'm thinking about it, it mgiht not be

[dreamy scarab]

I'm fighting ||phantom|| right now and I don't have double jump

[hot mango]

NO wait I was just bad at the game, it's climb gated

[proud cobalt]

It's just climb.

[dreamy scarab]

unless you mean something after the fight

[proud cobalt]

It's climb (mechanic) and pogo (skill).

[hot mango]

Different thing than ||Phantom||

Speedrunners still probably won't route that way since you have to fight at least one boss to get there, and ||Sister Splinter|| is more out of the way than ||Phantom||

||Not to mention Moorwing||

[brave flower]

they need wallcling and they can apparently get there without splinter

[autumn kettle]

||splinter's also mandatory||

or well

climb is

splinter isn't, yeah

[hot mango]

Ah, then I don't know

[autumn kettle]

if she wasn't skippable she'd be mandatory, citadel and ||silk|| are climb-gated

i think thicket is still slower than phantom though

[hot mango]

||Wisp Woods will probably be part of the route I feel||

[autumn kettle]

esp. since it takes you out in underworks

[proud cobalt]

Low% 45 hour speedrun?

[autumn kettle]

and not citadel

[hot mango]

YOu don't have to fight anything to get there so maybe it isn't

• Underworks has required checks

[autumn kettle]

||do you not need to fight the salt and sanctuary tree of men?||

[hot mango]

Nope

[autumn kettle]

not that section

[hot mango]

JUst go through a breakable ceiling

[autumn kettle]

you need to specifically go through ||vaults or whiteward|| to hit harpoon

[hot mango]

||Whiteward leads to Harpoon? I didn't know that.||

[autumn kettle]

also can anyone think of any silkeater locations not out of the way?

[hot mango]

Unfortunately no

[autumn kettle]

||pretty sure the incinerator secret does, yeah||

[hot mango]

Anyway in that case ||Phantom|| is probably the speedrunner route, and if speedrunners ever find a way to bypass the ||climb|| checks it'll be a massive one

I imagine Silksong will be a difficult game to find an optimal any% route to find due to how much variation there is between options

[proud cobalt]

Oh yeah, that is true.

[autumn kettle]

ough.

almost successfully rawdogged it

got cornermogged

[hot mango]

Ooooof

What are y’all’s thoughts on NPCs that ||don’t react to the Needolin? Or NPCs that do but don’t have any dialog?||

Apparently ||Greyroot is in the latter camp, which support my theory that Greyroot is like an Anglerfish and that who we’re talking to is just some kind of lure, and isn’t actually her real body||

[autumn kettle]

pretty obviously a sign of a magically guarded mind, imo

[hot mango]

Really? ||Even Bell Beast? Like Bell Beast was Haunted but Hornet broke it out of it||

||And it falls into the latter category||

[brave flower]

bell beast is ouppy and does not speak Bugcommon

[hot mango]

||Even the random animals around Pharloom have special Needolin dialogue||

[proud cobalt]

In HK ||Powerful beings are susceptible to the Dream Nail, they are simply cognizant of it happening and presumably shunt anything they don't want you hearing away.||

[hot mango]

||The only examples we have of that are Seer and The White Lady is the thing||

[inland wave]

||Bardoon!||

[autumn kettle]

||even most of the unthinking beasts have dialogue||

[hot mango]

||Oops and Bardoon||

[autumn kettle]

that's not correct

[autumn kettle]

||also snail shamans and bardoon||

sniped

[inland wave]

Bardoon is such a precious gift

[hot mango]

||The Abyss Monsters don’t react at all but that’s expected||

[autumn kettle]

||the exceptions here are the bell beast, the fayforn, and greyroot||

||and the abyss things, which are...abyss things||

[proud cobalt]

Which part?

[hot mango]

||The Unmasked Snail Shamans also sing but don’t give dialog||

[inland wave]

||Mine.. give dialogue :|a||

[autumn kettle]

right yeah them too

so signs of a magically guarded mind

there's no awoken needolin, after all

[hot mango]

Why Bell Beast tho?

The first encounter is proof it does not have a magically guarded mind

[brave flower]

doesnt speak the language

and is ouppy

[autumn kettle]

dunno about it

but the others all obviously have thoughts

[hot mango]

So do the Ants and the random worms, they still have dialog

[autumn kettle]

just not ones hornet's powerful enough to reach

maybe it was sacred, and magically protected by weavers?

[hot mango]

That's probably it, it did drop a Silk Heart

still have no idea why the Bell Beast of all things drop a Silk Heart

[brave flower]

ouppy

[proud cobalt]

Did you explain the reason it was incorrect?

[brave flower]

who knows maybe it is just absurdly powerful

[hot mango]

||It did finish the Bell Eater which is like 5 times its size||

[autumn kettle]

||and also hornet probably would have tried to kill it if she was capable?||

||she's definitely a fan of cute things, but she also murders a lot of cute things||

[hot mango]

After becoming unhaunted it treats needle swings like being pet, so it's hide is tough

[brave flower]

hornet basically just slapped some sense into it

[hot mango]

IT is the only thing I know of in the game that managed to reverse being Haunted

[proud cobalt]

Am reminded of videos where owners playfully bother their pets by aggressively patting them all over.

[hot mango]

No other character seems capable of doing that

[inland wave]

Using the ||Spider Strings|| adjusts the dialogue for the Needolin, and it makes the ||Shamans have lyrics, as well||

[autumn kettle]

there's definitely something going on with it

beyond "is ouppy"

because yeah, it very much acts like a friendly little dog

[hot mango]

I don't think we'll ever learn what that is

[autumn kettle]

but it was bound in a ridiculous amount of Silk

and either wasn't Haunted at all, and was just angry

or was Haunted, and managed to un-Haunt itself

[hot mango]

I doubt that due to the Silk Heart and the Silk Explosion from defeat

[autumn kettle]

either of these things is a ridiculous feat

[autumn kettle]

as do i

but it has to be said as "theoretically possible in some way"

if vanishingly unlikely

[hot mango]

Tru

The Hunter's Journal does indicate there's some ambiguity that makes even Hornet unsure which it is

[autumn kettle]

yeah

whatever the case, even if it's "just" a bug

it's a very strange and strangely powerful one

which could mean that it's resistant to the needolin

[proud cobalt]

Inb4 we learn Bellbeast is this games Grimm.

[autumn kettle]

or it could be a "holy" beast, and protected by some enchantment of the Weavers

or it could be something else

dunno

[hot mango]

It can't be a higher being because some NPCs say how there used to be many Bell Beast, just like the Stags

[autumn kettle]

yeah

but i think it doesn't contradict my conclusion on voiceless needolin songs

[inland wave]

How long was.. Pharloom around

were they something before Bell Beasts

or did they evolve in this

[hot mango]

Team Cherry is allergic to precise measurement of time so who knows

There's vanishingly little information on the Bell Beasts

Maybe that's on purpose, who knows

[inland wave]

not a lotta folks to ask i guess

[proud cobalt]

We got 3 guys and they like being vague.

[hot mango]

It could be a Moogle situation of "devs have weird little guy they're obsessed with yet their actions within the game ask so many questions that the devs did not care to think about"

[proud cobalt]

All we know is Pharloom and Hollownest are built on older civilizations.

[hot mango]

We don't know that for sure with Pharloom actually

At least I don't

I think a certain answer on that subject is a spoiler, becasue if it's definitive I probably haven't seen what declared it

[proud cobalt]

Fair enough, still have yet to see 1 ending of SIlksong tbh so I'll get to that when I see it.

[hot mango]

But afaik there's no strong indication that Pharloom was built on the bones of anything that wasn't itself

Unlike Hallownest which was build primarily on the bones of The Radiance's civilization as well as like 8 others

Pharloom has some contrasting tribes within it but they're not as major factions as the following The Radiance had

[hollow elm]

(Act 3) ||I really need a cutscene skip for these dream battles||

[hot mango]

Nor as various as Hallownest's other populi, such as Deepnest, the Mantises, the Mushrooms, the Mosskin, the Abyss Worshippers, the Hive, and Lifeblood stuff

Meanwhile Pharloom has ||ants, coral, and like. I guess the woods?||

And maybe the weavers if and only if they are unrelated to the Citadel stuff

[proud cobalt]

We see some Pale Influence (About all I know is ||Pale Oil||).

Whatever a ||Sylphean Slug|| is, must have something to do with Pale Beings.

[hot mango]

I feel like Pale is just BUg speak for "strong"

[hot mango]

the what? I'm in act 3 and I never heard of that thing

Oh wait item descriptions

I'm dumb

[proud cobalt]

Yes.

The item description part, you're a GM so you're smarter than me.

It's not mentioned anywhere else in the entire game as far as I know so, something to add to the Pale Being List.

Honestly am thinking of Bloodborne with that train of thought.

[proud cobalt]

Tree lady is powerful then.

(White Lady.)

[hot mango]

I think "Pale" and "White" are considered different tiers technically, but yeah Tree Lady is strong that is a fact of the game

[proud cobalt]

Yeah, more just meant we don't see her do much since she anchored herself in place and just kind of hangs out from what I know. And her guards felt she needed defense from the army of mantises.

[hot mango]

She's trying to hide her power- inaction doesn't necessarily indicate weakness of means

[proud cobalt]

Oh I know that, just do we actually know the extent of her power?

All I can remember is that she's powerful/important enough to become the Queen of Hallownest in its prime alongside the Pale King.

[solar elbow]

Slightly incorrect. She bound herself out of guilt, and also to mitigate her “voracious desire […] to breed”

[proud cobalt]

Ah, ok, could not remember all the lore.

[hot mango]

If she is anything like ||Greyroot|| I'm so glad she chose to do that

[proud cobalt]

That explains her capability to birth all the vessels we see.

[proud cobalt]

Poisonous?

Idk, just assuming based on her first quest.

[autumn kettle]

bro i am begging you stop assuming

[proud cobalt]

But that's my specialty?

[autumn kettle]

just get farther into the game

[proud cobalt]

Being completely wrong.

[proud cobalt]

Can I just not theorycraft in peace? I'm allowed to be wrong.

[hot mango]

Don't worry about it

[proud cobalt]

Also I literally already said I don't have the game, I only watch it.

I don't have a machine that can run it.

[proud cobalt]

I already know what the second quest is, but not the lore around it. I peruse the wiki specifically for the tools and that stuff.

I've never cared about spoilers except for when trying to introduce others to things I like, and I hate suspense.

[proud cobalt]

Still, come on now.

Let me have my fun.

[hot mango]

Fair enough

If you truly don't care ||reproduction via parasites is what I was worried about||

[autumn kettle]

alright i'm obviously just starting to crash out over the high halls gauntlet, so i'm going to take a break from both of these things

[proud cobalt]

Alright, have a good one.

[proud cobalt]

Whar? Ok I need you to explain that, you mean the White Lady right?

For some reason I thought you were talking about Greyroot's quest and got really really confused.

[thorny bear]

what are the odds of Silksong getting a "Plasmium update" that doesn't touch plasmium

[safe yew]

decent - team cherry has a sense of humor

[hot mango]

Yes

[proud cobalt]

Thought so.

Yeah, that would make sense.

Though she may also be aggressively carnivorous, but I doubt it.

[hollow elm]

the use time of tools is really grating to my style

[gleaming reef]

Barbed Bracelet is so worthless holy shit

[hollow elm]

It's entirely for players that can mostly avoid getting hit

[hot mango]

It’s a speedrunner tool

[gleaming reef]

Most marginal damage increase for double damage is fucking crazy

[brave flower]

its for the people who are so desperate to do as much damage as possible that theyd whine if there were no offensive options in The Exploration Slot

[hot mango]

And might be useful for Hunter’s crest idk

[hollow elm]

I've used it mostly on Reaper because it needs everything it can get

[hot mango]

Disagree respectfully, the range is bighuge and good in casual play

Plus the Bind Bonus ain’t half bad

[hollow elm]

damage-output wise, I'm counting on it's silk output for spell DPS

[autumn kettle]

okay

an hour fifteen of attempting the high halls gauntlet

lessons taken:

the things that would have helped me clear an hour ago

barbed bracelet

beast crest

needle 4

sixth mask

[brave flower]

buzzsaws perhaps?

[autumn kettle]

no

[brave flower]

:(

but they can hit both of the big guys...

[autumn kettle]

fliers have been the problem every time

[brave flower]

ah i see

[autumn kettle]

big guys i just die on because i'm flustered and choke

[brave flower]

do u have cogflies or is that after the arena

[autumn kettle]

and need more damage to make it a 1v1

cogflies did not help

[brave flower]

damn

[autumn kettle]

they did basically no damage and had a cap of 4

because i was 0/0

[brave flower]

ah

[autumn kettle]

and i ran out instantly because you don't kill things or farm shells

in an attempt to go fast

[brave flower]

icic

hrm

[autumn kettle]

needle 4 is beyond unachievable

that would require two bosses, mount fay, and money

beast crest it is

and maybe barbed bracelet

but probably not both at once

[hot mango]

I mean. If you're doing a speedrun, I'd personally just call it quits and restart to replan the route. Mainly because even if it is possible to finish in time it sounds like it'll be agony

[hot mango]

Man idk where to even start looking for needle 4

[autumn kettle]

yeah this is for next time

[hollow elm]

Rapidly noticing ||Skarsinger|| is ||the parts of ants I don't like dealing with||

[brave flower]

OH DO YOU GO PAST FORGE DAUGHTER

[autumn kettle]

mandatory for lace 1

but that's quite early

[brave flower]

get urself some sting shards

and perhaps a crafting kit

[autumn kettle]

considered it, no money

[hollow elm]

I hate how stiff this fight feels

[brave flower]

theres a bellway nearby that u could maybe open and come back later?

doesnt matter if its that much of a timeloss if it enables you to clear high halls arena

[autumn kettle]

also money

[brave flower]

u had like 340 going into tje arena

tmk thats close to enough

definitelt enough for sting shards

[autumn kettle]

sure but

i had 340

because of something i got in vaults

which is way way way the fuck after forgedaughter and the deep docks bellway

would need to find more money early

[brave flower]

ah

surely theres a rosary string that isnt too far out of the way

[autumn kettle]

maybe

would have to check map

[brave flower]

those things are everywhere

[autumn kettle]

okay hm

taking bellhart's shortcut south

spits me out right in front of march

ah shit, bro's already dead

that's tragic

wish you could save them

but it means that if i route over to beast crest after i have needle 3 and am ready for high halls, i get fractured mask in the bargain

[brave flower]

ooh not bad

[autumn kettle]

WAIT WHAT THE FUCK

HORNET'S CHALLENGE IS DIFFERENT IN DIFFERENT CRESTS?

THAT'S PEAK

[hoary tulip]

yes

[hollow elm]

||Flintslate|| is worth a hell of a lot more than it seems, especially compared to ||Flea Brew||

[safe yew]

it is? news to me

[autumn kettle]

yep

[hollow elm]

I think I'll be walled by act 3 for a while

||Feels like hitting Endgame DLC difficulty already||

*||Skarsinger clear|| Not happening tonight, exploring other areas

[thorny bear]

the voice line?

[sinful stirrup]

Oh shit, I got the maxxed silk achievement

[umbral canyon]

say, going back and thinking about it - why the hell did the ||bell beast have a silk heart|| anyway?

||the unravelled and first sinner|| both make sense from a lore perspective

[thorny bear]

aiui it didn't

that moment is hornet recovering her own

[umbral canyon]

aw yeah, that'd make sense

[autumn kettle]

||first sinner doesn't have a silk heart||

||she guards rune rage||

||lace 2 is the third silk heart||

[umbral canyon]

oh yes, apologies, my bad

still, point stands

[autumn kettle]

it's interesting and odd, because like

a lot of hornet's abilities are Hornet's Abilities

clawline is something she does in HK

(albeit slower)

threadstorm, of course, is hegaale

[umbral canyon]

yep, traps, silk spear, silkstorm are all from her old kit

[autumn kettle]

cross stitch is her own parry

silk spear not really

[umbral canyon]

the traps at least are explicitly a recreation of her past kit

[autumn kettle]

and the only explicit recreation is her sting shards

which is the only trap she uses, anyway

[umbral canyon]

yeah i guess her throw in HK was closer to clawline than silk spear

[autumn kettle]

ye

so she's got like

clawline, threadstorm, cross stitch, and the mobility brace

that are all Her Abilities

and yet, all of those are framed at least in part as being things she gains of the weavers

i wonder if somebody other than hornet absorbing all of the same monuments would gain entirely different forms of power

or if these are all weaver arts of a sort

[umbral canyon]

well in the ||red memory we see that she was trained at least a bit in conventional weaver arts|| so it makes sense that they'd be reproducible techniques like that i guess

[thorny bear]

I think the most logical headcanon would be that after Godhome ending when she fought pure vessel she was wounded and lost some ability

[autumn kettle]

god i want to see what the fuck happens to hornet immediately post-HK

please team cherry

give me the between-times

[thorny bear]

or the grunts who captured her, who clearly have lots of experience kidnapping weavers much stronger than them, have some sort of magic thingy to drain her powers

[umbral canyon]

yeah i have thoughts about that, because if the infection is gone, why would the hollow knight even be hostile towards hornet tbh?

[thorny bear]

confused and scared

"I was told that I need to be trapped here forever and the whole reason I have this weapon and training is to kill anyone who wakes me up, and she is the only one in the room"

[umbral canyon]

if i had to guess, i thjnk their cages draink silk the same way the ||fly jailer's|| does

[vagrant spruce]

technically it's not - her parry is a single hit, no? she just learns cross stitch from ||phantom||, which gives her an... upgraded version of her own parry, i suppose?

[autumn kettle]

yes, but her parry is in the same pose as it was in HK

[vagrant spruce]

(but yes, i do see the point you're making anyway)

true!

[autumn kettle]

and her riposte is a dash

upgrading to a triple dash

[hoary tulip]

clearly she adapted their riposte for use with her parrying technique

[autumn kettle]

yeah, it's phantom's riposte, but

[vagrant spruce]

though somehow she hits 4 times in 3 dashes :)

[hoary tulip]

one more for good measure

like Vergil

[autumn kettle]

three slashes and then the edgy mccoolguy anime echo strike

[hoary tulip]

Vergil can hit people 13 times with 7 sword slashes

how?

don't worry about it

[vagrant spruce]

she scratches you for pitiful damage 3 times, style over swag, and then the 4th one actually hurts now

[hollow elm]

I've been shocked by the horizontal range of the parry skill, incredibly wide.

[thorny bear]

this made me think of @autumn kettle

[autumn kettle]

IT'S A GOOD ZONE YOUR HONOR

[vagrant spruce]

my favorite area in the game is memorium i think

i just really like the vibes

[thorny bear]

I think the only one on that list I really couldn't imagine anyone voting for is the Slab

aside from full frontal nudity it just doesn't have much going for it

[vagrant spruce]

i think i could see the same for high halls & possibly underworks, though i'd also have said that about choral chambers

nothing wrong with them - but there's not exactly a ton of fascinating things in there. though underworks is pretty massive at least

[hoary tulip]

aww fuck

how do I even decide which area I like the best

[thorny bear]

I mean choral chambers is like

half the game

[hoary tulip]

I kinda love Choral Chambers for the music+art tbh

[vagrant spruce]

actually, i think my favorite area is (act 3) ||coral tower. i've always liked underwater places, and it makes me sad we didn't get to see more of that, but i liked what we got||

[hoary tulip]

it has a really good backing theme, looks immaculate, brings a very different flow of combat from the rest of the game up to that point

Cogwork Core is, of course, a Castlevania clock tower area so it's fucking goated your honor

[autumn kettle]

i wish there were evil nightmare fuckyou bats or something

in core

to match the tradition of BITCHASS MEDUSA HEADS in clock towers

but it's a great zone

[spark ether]

I really wanted to like mount fay because I normally love winter areas, but the cold mechanic really turned me off of it

[autumn kettle]

?

the cold mechanic is great

it's what makes it like

a real zone

the platforming isn't super difficult except for the fact that it demands a level of speed

which is, imo, always a really refreshing way to shake things up

[sinful stirrup]

Hang on, do you need to beat the ||lace rematch|| to get the act 3 unlock quest?

[hoary tulip]

the thing about mount fay is that you can just squat on hotzones for as long as you want

and if your platforming section is going bad

[autumn kettle]

there's a bit of precision required, but not a ton, and so to compliment and twist that each section demands you plan it out a bit

[hoary tulip]

you just throw your needle down into the snow in disgust

[autumn kettle]

so you can execute it quickly

[hoary tulip]

and trudge back to the hotzone

[autumn kettle]

i dunno yet, but it doesn't hurt

[spark ether]

I really struggled with the claw line at first, and the cold adding a 30sec-1 minute runback to basically every jump I needed to practice really sucked all of the fun out of it for me

[autumn kettle]

||since her silk heart gives completion %||

[sinful stirrup]

Cuz I would have expected it to have become a vailable by now

[autumn kettle]

oh, yeah it's definitely not supposed to be the first thing you do with clawline

[spark ether]

Oh it wasn't for me, it's just finally what it took for me to get semi decent at it

[hoary tulip]

genuine question, am I the only who's still having fun even if they do get frustrated with games

[spark ether]

Oh I'm still having fun

[autumn kettle]

uhhhhh

hm

[hoary tulip]

like

[autumn kettle]

complicated question for me

[sinful stirrup]

||All the wishboards are done, the fleas are in the ducts, IDK what more it wnts from me||

[hoary tulip]

idk how else to phrase this one because the conversation around silksong and difficulty has been a LOT of like

"this got me mad and I stopped having fun"

[autumn kettle]

because the point where i get frustrated is the point where i've stopped having fun

[frustrated] as in upset

[sinful stirrup]

I'm having a ton of fun, even if I get frustrated at times

[spark ether]

If I wasn't having fun I wouldn't be in act 3, there's just a lot I don't enjoy

[autumn kettle]

i at least stop having fun with whatever i'm frustrated with/at

but challenge or roadblocks or even the perception of "unfairness" don't necessarily frustrate me

[hoary tulip]

but even when Silksong had me muttering under my breath, running my hands through my hair, losing my mind I was also going "okay but also fuck yes this game is making me feel things, my blood is pumping and I'm excited"

[vagrant spruce]

yeah, that's fair - i watched a friend play some of it, and honestly if you're not just very practiced (or i guess innately talented) with platformer movement, it's rather tedious

[autumn kettle]

like, it's not necessarily frustrating for me to Be Dogshit At This Thing and get my ass handed to me for an hour

as long as i feel like i'm learning or understanding or growing

at the task set

[hoary tulip]

yeah that's fair

[vagrant spruce]

they aren't really a big video games person, so they fell a couple times (not even cold getting them - they just fucked up the jump) and the "runback" ~30s climb was mildly annoying

[autumn kettle]

even if the progress is incremental, if i feel or see progress, i'm usually satisfied

not always, but

[spark ether]

Me with literally all of my favorite bosses so far lol

[hoary tulip]

I've hit the breaking point with games before where it's just like "this ain't going fuckin nowhere stick a fork in me I'm done"

[autumn kettle]

that's one of the trends for me

[safe yew]

i feel this is a critical component; frustration is much more tolerable when coupled with a sense of improvement and/or knowing-how-to-improve

[hoary tulip]

but Silksong as an experience I mostly just found like

so utterly riveting and entrancing that I couldn't tear myself away from it long enough to get properly ticked off

[autumn kettle]

like, karmelita kicked my dick in for an hour or two, because i am not very good at video james and i try to flex in spite of it

so i was running around with the barbed bracelet that was probably hurting more than it helped

but it felt good

and she felt awesome to fight

every time i got got by her anti-air attack i went

"yeah that's super hard to read, but i understand and respect the decision"

"if i could just jump on autopilot against this boss it would suck ass"

"i have to be thinking, and so i continue to think more about her"

[spark ether]

God I loved karmelita, despite getting my ass handed to me repeatedly

[autumn kettle]

it never felt frustrating [to be struck by plausibly frustrating attacks], because i immediately understood and agreed with all of the reasons why those attacks were formatted in the way they were

[hoary tulip]

karmelita was such a kickass bossfight

[autumn kettle]

and the same with ||lost lace||, the true final boss

they took me like three fucking hours

[hoary tulip]

that was like, one of the only fights in the game where I was like "fucking hell that boss was a genuine equal to Hornet"

[safe yew]

anecdotal example: i found (late act 1 boss) ||widow|| quite difficult, but it very much helped that with each death i got a bit more sense of how to read and respond to the attacks

[autumn kettle]

because i decided "i want to do this with barbed bracelet needle only"

and decided to learn the fight as thoroughly as i could, while being as fast as possible

could i have played safer? yeah, all the time

but i didn't want to wait for my turn, because HK/SS bosses have very obvious This Is My/Your Turn windows...and the ability to constantly defy those windows

and get in more hits

which is one of the most compelling facets of the bosses

[hollow elm]

I think it's a very big reason to consider learning to use down dash too.

[autumn kettle]

you're rarely just...Being Hitboxed At

all of the hitboxes on bosses have places where they aren't, and as such places where you can hit them while they're swinging

you just have to rapidly move to those places from a neutral stance of Still Hitting Them

like with uhhh

lace 2 as an example (this is not a spoiler lmao, it's obvious and in the journal)

she has two possible forms of parry

[hollow elm]

I've been learning more of karmelita, but it feels much more like a fighting game match with the lack of damage windows avalible because of the absurd AA, and blocking.

[autumn kettle]

now, obviously, you could just

take the fight slow and not attack very often

so as to not get got by Having To Guess The Riposte

[hoary tulip]

I just went slow against Karmelita lol

[autumn kettle]

or you can find the specific spacing that cover both options, and train the reflex of going to that place, so you can hit her more after each riposte

[hollow elm]

I've been using Flintslate a lot more to make every swing count when I have a window, and for mid-air stall with the use animation.

[autumn kettle]

and that's one of the things that i find really fun about good metroidvania bosses

having a lot of movement tech and figuring out how to use it to hit bosses more often

learning exactly how much you can and can't get away with against a given move

and SS has some phenomenal movement tech

which also makes all of the traversal sections great

[hoary tulip]

man

Hornet's movement feels SO crisp

[autumn kettle]

learning how to comfortably integrate all of your tools into platforming and basic-enemy-clearing feels so fucking clean

[hollow elm]

You can downright fly through areas you're familar with using just dash jump

[autumn kettle]

yeah, sprint and dash jump alone are such a multiplier

[hoary tulip]

literally just dashing and using Clawline confidently means you can BLAST through most of the game at hyperspeed

[tall night]

i keep finding myself fightinig a boss being big and greedy, dying like 3 timies until im mad and then going okay sure and being patient and just beating it, it happened with tlj and beastfly at least

[autumn kettle]

and especially once you get clawline and silkspeed anklets

you're just

so fucking fast

[autumn kettle]

yeah that's a perfectly valid way to fight bosses as well

i just don't find it fun

[safe yew]

i still need to figure out how to properly fight with clawline

[autumn kettle]

i like to see exactly how greedy i'm allowed to be

push it as hard as possible

[hoary tulip]

honestly I start the most conservative I'm ever gonna be with a boss

and then get REALLY greedy by the time I win

[tall night]

neither do i honestly lol i just know that if i keep being greedy im gonna be there for a while lmaooo

[hoary tulip]

you just go "hey is that a two hit window" "hey can I punish that too" over and over as you're feeling the boss fight out and boom

greed wins

[autumn kettle]

yeah

[hollow elm]

I've been greedmaxing since getting Wanderer Crest, and only Act 3 has made me slow down some.

[hoary tulip]

also I gotta say after playing through like 80% of the game without using clawline in combat and then realizing "holy shit flying enemies are Like That because you're supposed to harpoon them"

I need to replay Silksong with that in mind

[autumn kettle]

YEP LMAO

clawline and anti-air tools

[hollow elm]

The DPS of Wanderer with Flintslate is horrifying

[autumn kettle]

also

[hoary tulip]

RAAAAAAH ON-HIT EFFECTS

[autumn kettle]

act 3 is when i just

never took off barbed bracelet

for anything

and felt equal parts like a huge chode tryhard and sick as fuck

[hoary tulip]

see the breaking point for me was Act 3: ||Coral Tower||

where I was like

this is unreasonable

what do I do about these flying assholes

in this tiny room

with no floor

[hollow elm]

It's quickly turning into "add Flintslate" for me (in Act 3), especially ||when facing void-buffed enemies||.

[hoary tulip]

what could I possibly do to attack enemies who hover like jackasses in the air, taunting me by dodging away and staying half a screen length in midair when I cannot land...

the ever-useful Clawline:

[tall night]

yeah flying enemies ive found monstly kill me by me jumping into them trying to fucking hit them

[hoary tulip]

clawline em

you're protected from contact damage by it

[autumn kettle]

NOOOO

ALMOST NO-HIT

DAMMIT

[tall night]

oh im not that far along ii didnt get to play for like a week i just got to the citadel, right outside ||cogwork dancers|| if i can get it now i havent found it yet

but ill make it my job now to try and find it ( semi blind at least)

[umbral canyon]

i feel like a solid 60% of the enemies in this game are trivialised once you get directly below or above them

just because of how insane hornet's air control is

[autumn kettle]

i'd agree with that

[tall night]

do you have to mash thread storm i just noticied this does it do more damage?

[vagrant spruce]

if you mash it it'll extend it and deal ~33% more damage, iirc - so you don't have to, but it's free damage if you won't be hit out of it or anything

[autumn kettle]

you don't have to, but yes

[sinful stirrup]

See I find if I get directly above a flying enemy, it will just rise up into me and hitbox

[umbral canyon]

oh yeah, since people were talking about the ||weaver|| crest earlier - i think this from the standard ||bad ending|| would count?

[autumn kettle]

technically, i suppose

[rose granite]

The ascent up ||Mount Fay|| does a good job of giving you competence with the tool in a non-combat setting, after which I'd start using it against foes you're comfortable with and focus on it.

Gran Reed is a solid training dummy enemy IME.

[safe yew]

||oh i'm well past there, i just tend to lean on other combat strategies||

[rose granite]

Close to a few benches, big, and with highly telegraphed attacks.

[thorny bear]

i don't use it as, like, a main part of combat, but i use it a lot against certain enemies that are very obnoxious to get in against; mainly flying ones

[sinful stirrup]

I find them really useful against the keep away fliers, like the ascended bell throwers and shotgun flies in ducts

[hollow elm]

I've still mostly used it on enemies to move around faster, and sometimes for damage if I'm not throwing Threefold Pin at stuff.

[autumn kettle]

goddammit

almost no-hit again

so fucking close

i'm going for the ||curse ending||

and i

really should have grabbed mask 6

or needle 4

before attempting

[rose granite]

Yeah, I think more liberal use on my end at least will come with comfort around exploiting the windows where the enemies' hurtboxes are disabled.

[rose granite]

Doing it at 5 masks sounds rough yeah.

[autumn kettle]

it really, really is

i just used the failed 5h save

as a jumping off point

and went "eh i was close, i can do it"

and went straight for it

instead of getting a fucking mask

or doing the food quest

[rose granite]

Doing the food quest whilst ||cursed|| does sound rough too admittedly, if more manageable.

[autumn kettle]

oh as in like

i should've done it before ||the curse||

i'm committed now

[rose granite]

Ah, yeah that makes more sense.

Random thought, but I wonder how difficult it would be to add a Savage Beastfly to every boss fight in the game.

[autumn kettle]

lmao

probably really annoying

you'd be able to get frametrapped really easily

on a lot of bosses

[rose granite]

As cherry intended

If ||Fourth Chorus|| and the beastfly weren't meant to be fought together, they wouldn't have been put in the same arena.

[autumn kettle]

LOL

YIPPEE

5 masks, needle 3

[vagrant spruce]

grats :)

[autumn kettle]

don't do what i did

be kind to yourself

get mask 6

get needle 4

maybe even get mask 7

very easy "final" boss

not so ez without healing

where you can only tank two and a half hits

[vernal stone]

To be fair even in Hollow Knight Original ||I always felt like the White Lady would probably be less placid and benevolent if she wasn't being restrained, she enthusiastically took part in mass scale vessel production and only started to regret it when she saw the results||

[umbral canyon]

my conspiracy theory is that the ||parasite curse is an attempt to create something to replace nyleth||

[autumn kettle]

ooh, that'd be neat!

[rose granite]

Debating whether to switch the dash and attack keys on the controller around, since I've noticed the jump and attack key both being on the buttons makes using them in conjunction difficult if you're for example doing a charge attack. May moreso be me though, but will try it out.

[rose granite]

||The White Lady I think is a good microcosm of what seems to be recurring elements amongst the Higher Beings in the setting of Hollow Knight. They seem to oft struggle with their instincts versus reason, even moreso than bugs mayhaps, and this in turn oft takes the form of a desire to rule, commune, or have children. It varies of course, but I think it's interesting with Hornet how she at times talks about her primal instincts with a sense of distance; such as around when you unlock Act 3 she discusses how some part of her is compelled to rule, even if that is not the part of herself that she heeds.||

||How higher beings relate to their children, and their children relate to them in turn, is mayhaps unsurprisingly a rather strong recurring element.||

[severe swift]

Non-gameplay question. Why does all fanart of Hornet show her as a thick woman? Is there some lore reason Im missing?

Or is it just the internet being the internet.

[hollow elm]

Internet being internet, Hornet without cloak is maximum creature.

[severe swift]

I was gonna say, even if you were to anthropomorphize her, wouldnt she be incredibly thin?

[burnt axle]

When she doesn’t have her cloak, her head seem really big in comparison, yeah

[rose granite]

Yeah, what we definitionally know about her figure is that she's quite literally thin as a stick; being more akin in form to her siblings than to bugs.

But the framework a decent bit of fan art works with, depending ofc on the artist, is to take a character and depict them with your own pre-established conventions, style, and want.

In other words, I don't know what fan art is being referenced because I don't really use twitter or bluesky much, but I do highly suspect that if you see a voluptuous Hornet, chances are it's from an artist who generally draws women like that ;p.

Ironically some of the only fan art I've seen of the game is a piece about fan art by Shantysixix ;p. That and this piece: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/8B0Prw

[severe swift]

This is what I figured. Honestly Im game with hot Hornet yknow, whatever floats your boat, but her default being super thick is a bit like if Waluigi was consistently portrayed as a beefcake in fanart

[rose granite]

I don't want to say that that's the worst example, but Waluigi happens to be one of the more popular characters for drawing ironically hot (and genuinely too), so even just searching for "Waluigi hot" will net you a lot of beefcakes.

So, like, yes Waluigi is consistently depicted as a beefcake; do with that information what you may ;p. Either way I digress.

[severe swift]

See hes hot there but its still skinny hot for the most part. Googling Hornet Hot gets you ONLY thick bugs Lol

Goes without saying, not a big deal, was just wondering if theres a lore reason for it

[wet anvil]

do you need double jump to get the map in~~ blighttown 3 ~~bilewater?

[rose granite]

Well, not exactly

(yes I know you should add Silksong first, but this was very funny.)

What is some neat fanart though is that first result, which is from five years ago https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/fknf71/hornet_getting_ready_for_silksongs_release/

[severe swift]

This feels so much more like her

[hot mango]

I think it was just the Shade Lord puppeting the Hollow Knight at that point, since the Godhome Ending did frame it as immediately violent and hostile

[hot mango]

Absolutely as the giver references it

[hot mango]

Nah I’m having a great time. Example- Moorwing frustrated the hell out of me, but now in hindsight I think it was a fun and great boss.

[hot mango]

“I am not very good at video games” okay mage breezed through most of the act 1 and act 2 bosses

I like how in Silksong you can do “Summon Build 2- it got worse this time” by equipping Cogflies, act 2 hidden area ||Wisp Lantern,|| act 3 spoilers ||And maybe Pale Nails|| along with Pollip Heart Most likely because what else are you gonna take

[brave flower]

under works has 12th architect

[inland widget]

Secret boss: ||https://youtu.be/7MkSd0Om6vs||

[hot mango]

I know Riker was testing the numbers earlier, but I just saw a video going over the crest damage numbers and it’s actually pretty interesting.

So across all the crests, none of them ||sans Witch and Architect|| actually change your needle damage. They all deal the same amount of damage per hit, even Wanderer with its quick slash, making reaper statistically fall behind in terms of damage ||due to Hunter’s eventual upgrade|| and Reaper’s slower swing speed. Even their Charge Attacks kinda average to similar damage

||Witch and Architect are exceptions. Witch’s “phase” attacks that multi hit actually deal 6 damage, with its follow up dash attacks dealing half damage rounded down while the initial needle hit deals the normal damage, making it fall behind by 1 damage compared to other crests with the ability to follow up on their attacks easily. Moreover, its pogo has 2 hits- the first dealing half damage rounded down, and the second dealing half damage rounded up, averaging to a single hit. Moreover, Witch’s charged attack deals about 10 damage per hit, but can hit up to 6 times. ||

||Architect is… weird. It’s dash attack works the same as Witch’s Pogo, but it’s regular hit seems to deal an initial regular needle -1 damage with the multi hits ticking up extra +1 ticks of damage with up to I think 3 extra ticks possible, making it average more needle damage than the other crests. Moreover the Pogo attack, when charged, work also like Witch’s, except it deals an extra 2 instances of rounded down half damage. W/o charge it has the same Calc as Witch’s pogo. As for the charge attacks, if all the hits land, it appears to do about 4 times as much damage as the other charge attacks, only keeping up with Witch’s max charge attack damage but being so much easier to land||

Source vid btw, act 3 spoilers: || https://youtu.be/ctjfvAH2IFY||

Also watching this person test the Red Tools… yeah the tacks are guaranteed damage they NEED to be nerfed HARD. All tools need to be holy shit.

Also apparently Longpin does the same damage as Straight Pin which like… why?

[rose granite]

It's a fairly normal experience with hobbies to have periods where you're not loving it even if you love it overall. As such I don't think there's anything weird with folk getting frustrated in bits, talking when they get frustrated, and then after a pause/getting through the section, continuing to enjoy the game. That's pretty normal, as is the propensity to share when one is frustrated because for better or worse those are moments that get people talking.

There is an effort to not have folk overdo it with venting here for understandable reasons, but it's why I'm not personally super invested in proving someone is wrong over something having gotten to them, because well it did demonstrably get to them.

Still having fun despite sometimes getting frustrated is, like, the norm with hard games. It's not some special revelation I don't think.

[formal zenith]

I gotta say
I've been playing hollow knight while on my silksong break
and I think I appreciate the skills you learn from silksong more now
stuff that I struggled with in my first playthrough of HK I'm able to beat in no more than a couple tries
I'm hopeful about coming back to silksong and learning to enjoy the struggle a little more

[rose granite]

Mm, where things ended up smoothing out for me the most was when I accepted just having my progression dictated by the location of mobility and damage upgrades.

Either way it's a game where a break and some variety is good. No need to burn oneself out on it after all.

[green bone]

Act 3 omggggg

lets go sing with mama

[rose granite]

Easiest way to know whether someone has reached act three is when they switch from calling ||bell beast|| from assumed he to she.

(also yes they're precious)

[elfin ravine]

It does pierce shields, but wow that's kinda rough yeah

[green bone]

Act 3 spoilers || Holy shit vertical C-Dash is an insane upgrade ||

[wanton bone]

Hmm… is it me, or does the game feel less generous with spools than HK was with soul stones? Currently in a parkour section with an unpleasant cocoon respawn past where I’ve gotten to, and a tricky exit.

[green bone]

oh absolutely

[elfin ravine]

definitely less, yeah

and in a lot of places it doesn't even always sum up to a heal

[hot mango]

I never assumed she was a he, the vibes were always she to me. Tho I do use “it” frequency too because… it’s a beast that Hornet can’t communicate with I doubt it knows what a gender is

[hot mango]

In a game like Silksong, enemy piercing is a very very minor bonus

Which is another reason Thread Storm is so good compared to the other Silk Skills

[green bone]

Cogflies killed the enemies I was meant to bounce off

[elfin ravine]

well it's also that straight pins bounce off blocks and shields, and longpins don't

but curveclaw is probably still better than either anyway

[severe swift]

The first part of ||act 3|| getting rid of your favourite crest in favour of Hunter is ROUGH

I have died to that arena like a dozen times

[rose granite]

I find it to be the exception rather than the rule to get a full heal from spools.

[elfin ravine]

yeah

[rose granite]

Not the biggest issue in the world, but since ||the harpoon|| takes silk it can be a bit difficult to get enough silk for a heal during later parkour sections.

[elfin ravine]

I think Mount Fay was the main one that actually had full spools?

[rose granite]

Mount Fay and High Tower are the two that come to mind, though the one in HT is located at the beginning.

[hot mango]

Yeah I know, it’s still a minor bonus since a. It’s not that hard to circumvent that, and b. It’s not as common as you’d want

[severe swift]

Is there a bench or something I can rest at because this is not fun

[hot mango]

Good news is that’s the only obstacle you need to brute force past.

Bad news is that it’s an obstacle you need to brute force past.

||Just spam Needle Throw to get rid of all but the big guy ASAP, and then fight the big guy as patiently as possible||

[severe swift]

Okay thats good at least. No clue what they were thinking with that

Also reminds me how much I dislike Hunter

[hot mango]

Actually I found a better Crest damage comparison video, also act 3 spoilers tho || https://youtu.be/qIPUfl-rEZA||

[fervent sand]

Late ACt 2 ||I just touched the glowing orb after my fight with Lace in the cradle and it crashed my fucking computer||

[rose granite]

Oh yeah that's their final phase attack.

You dodge it by pressing Alt-F4

[rose granite]

Might want to put that link in spoilers considering the thumbnail is just all the crests.

[hot mango]

Did I not?

[rose granite]

Not from what I saw at least.

[hot mango]

It’s spoilered on my end

[rose granite]

And I don't think I'd clicked on it.

[elfin ravine]

it is spoiled for me

[hot mango]

This is what’s on my screen

Anyway apparently ||Architect has the highest needle damage in the game so expect Architect nerfs soon||

[rose granite]

Yeah, think it just didn't for whatever reason on my end. Not much of an issue.

[rose granite]

I'll expect any nerf when I see them materialise tbh.

At this point I've seen enough folk have various takes that I kinda tune that stuff out.

[hot mango]

Fair. Just from a math perspective the gulf probably shouldn’t be that big

[rose granite]

There is the question of what the effective dps difference is between players during combat. I'm sure it's there, but this is a video where if you take the whitebox information it posits you'd have reaper be the worst (which the creator himself explains why that's not necessarily the case).

A nerf may happen, to the crests, the skills, and the tools of the game, but our speculation is unlikely to affect it much.

[dreamy scarab]

Wow, I'm glad I backtracked to do (act 1) ||phantom||. Neat little fight, nice rewards.

[fervent sand]

Oh yes love the reward

It's a shame the method you get to them

Act... 2? ||I might have messed up? I got the 'weaver queen' ending I think? Is this a bad ending? What did I do wrong?||

[hot mango]

Yeah ofc, but ||Architect isn’t necessarily a high skill ceiling crest compared to others, and needle damage is not its primary purpose compared to other crests. It’s more a case of “Architect taking up too many niches” rather than “architect damage too good” ||

[delicate vapor]

||thats usually the first question anyone gets. You need to do quest for a different ending||

[fervent sand]

I found the person who gives it

though I did look it up

I think I needed to ||take down Lace|| before he'd offer it to me

[green bone]

https://youtu.be/C7gaBBvDyOQ

[warm beacon]

middle of act 2 spoilers ||WHY DOES IT KEEP GOING FOR SO LONG||

||WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE'S TWO OF THEM||

[hoary tulip]

I suggest saving this for last

[autumn kettle]

||good news, you've seen the end of it||

[thorny bear]

||i did that arena way too early, and if there was a phase after the two big guys i genuinely might have contacted steam support and requested an extended playtime refund lol||

[green bone]

Act 3 || I feel like I missed a lot of stuff by activating 2nd Sentinel and freeing Green Prince basically right before unlocking Act 3 |||

[gleaming reef]

Well my plasmium phial is permanently bugged and unusable

:(

It won't refill

[dreamy scarab]

I really like (act 2 tool) ||the drill||, but it's really frustrating trying to finesse the boss's hitbox to not get hurt during a stagger (currently dealing with (act 2) ||Broodmother||)

[elfin ravine]

did you run out of reserve?

[autumn kettle]

are you out of goop?

you need to go refill it with zylotol

[inland wave]

guy still sounds like medicine

[gleaming reef]

If I was then I wouldn't say it was bugged

20 reserve it just won't refill

[inland wave]

and you have the shards?

[autumn kettle]

in that case, you can probably go to a previous save if you have any nearby

[gleaming reef]

How do I go to a previous save

I'm on switch I think I only have the one

[autumn kettle]

in the menu, there should be a curved arrow symbol

at the bottom of your save

next to the trash can delete symbol

hopefully that's on switch

it lets you revert to previous "momentous pickups" in case of bugs like this

[vagrant spruce]

if you have it, you can also try the archi crest and see if that helps

[autumn kettle]

oh, to force reload

that's clever

[rose granite]

Worst case you can get a nail or tool damage upgrade, and it'll be a ton easier. Though if you're able to deal with ||the two conductors, IE the beetle guys|| without too much issue, the fight should be manageable.

[dreamy scarab]

Hm. I'm not a big fan of double boss fights filling the screen with effects, playing the "boss down!" sound, and generally making it hard to read the remaining boss when you take out one of them

(I fought ||double mossmother and the forge brothers|| back to back, so it really stood out)

[rose granite]

||Double Mossmother is such a weird fight because you genuinely barely need to dodge with the amount of silk you get.||

[thorny bear]

[act 3] i'm curious, has anyone else here run into ||seth after beating him? I met him twice, idk if that's all there is.||

it's definitely an Intriguing Lore Implications kinda storyline

[vagrant spruce]

yes, ||you can run into him 3 times total - after the first 2, he'll wind up at the fleatopia carnival :)||

[hollow elm]

I think max damage tools were mostly balanced around Act 3 fights, because (good lord I still need more firepower).

I won't be surprised if Tacks in particular get a damage nerf because of ease of use/almost always getting full value. Everything else has felt alright/necessary with the sheer health of Act 3's boss fights.

[hollow elm]

I don't think it'll get nerfs ||because the damage is there to offset increased animation time compared to normal swings, and it only really multi-hits at mid-close range. Maybe the charged attack because it's absurd.||

||Architect is the only crest I felt the need to put Longclaw on because the normal swings feel just a bit too short.||

[rose granite]

||Ironic since Architect is one of the crests I've also had folk say longclaw is unnecessary for.||

[umbral canyon]

the onjy one i ran ||longclaw on was wanderer tbh||

[hollow elm]

||I still need to grab Pinmaster's Mark or whatever that reduces the charge time of the massive neutral charge||

[vagrant spruce]

||i think disregarding the base nail length, archi you probably benefit much more from pinmaster badge than longclaw - you don't need soul for skills or anything, so just go nuts on the crazy good charge attack||

also, for reference - i have not watched the video linked but i did test things personally with max nail, and archi charge attack is a whopping ||23 damage vs. 21 damage for other base nails||. this is a nice buff, but it's not exactly gamebreaking here. the charged attack is crazy, but its hitbox is also super weird and possibly genuinely bugged (like witch dash)

[autumn kettle]

yeah, I found buddy

I'm really happy to see what they did with him

||also if you beat all of his carnival scores you get a memento||

[tall night]

I purposely lost so I could fight the ||cogdancers|| like 3 times what a fight so good

[hidden flame]

||The ending, though|| 😢

[umbral canyon]

this game is begging for a boss rush mode, especially with how late some builds come together

[rose granite]

Would be rather surprised if it didn't get one

[rotund magnet]

||did we lol the green prince?||

Act three spoilers

[thorny bear]

we ||cause his death||, if that's what you mean

but in a very dark souls "this is the best outcome for someone who's outlived their world" sense

[rotund magnet]

Yeah that part really sucks

[rotund magnet]

||mana showing to go NO right before phase 3 was great||

[rotund magnet]

Can you use challenge on switch?

I don’t see it on controls

[hoary tulip]

R3

[thorny bear]

iirc it's R3

concept for shard economy fix mod:
The first quarter of a tool is free to refill, but after that they cost shards as normal

[autumn kettle]

only at benches, though

can't do that with arch

[thorny bear]

i.e. if you have 8 max cogflies, you can use two and rebuild for free at the next bench, after that they cost 10 as normal

it would make it feel a lot better to use a couple of tools and get a feel for them in exploration

and make boss retries where you keep dying early way way less punishing

but still make shards always useful

[wanton bone]

I think my shard economy fix would be to make the magnet also pick them up.

[thorny bear]

or just. completely remove the absolutely pointless shard carry limit

throughout the early/mid game I rarely used tools so I was at max and sent hundreds of shards into the void, and late game I got pretty strapped for shards

[umbral canyon]

i feel like ||the abyss|| section was supposed to be longer at some point during development tbh

just because having a few enemies in there, with such a distinctive design, is a strange decision

like in the first game, the only enemies ||in the abyss were shades and the tentacles, which makes sense||, but the ||hole things feel like they're meant to be part of a new faction||

[thorny bear]

hmm? there are no ||factions in the abyss||

the only reason vessels have sapience is because of the pale dna

[umbral canyon]

not 'factions', 'species' maybe, like the moths or moss creatures. i'm referring to the ||gargant gloom|| for example

there's the ||shadow creepers|| but they're from hollow knight so they're just a callback enemy i guess

[thorny bear]

and they are a new species, ||to show that the deeper you get the more fucked up stuff there is||

||in hollow knight you barely get to the surface of the abyss, so you don't see the weirder stuff||

[rotund magnet]

which button is r3?

[vagrant spruce]

push stick

[hollow elm]

I think the Shard econ is also tied a lot more to rosaries by Act 2 too, since you'll be buying shard packs instead of manually farming to rapidly restock/stockpile backs.

*packs

I've been able to keep up fine for the most part, but it can get draining fast in some longer encouters.

[tall night]

i think early on its a sort of, forced grass touching, go farm some shards if you've died enough to a boss to lose them all and relax, especially since i dont know is there a shard bundle carry limit?

[autumn kettle]

iirc 20 per type

[hollow elm]

Yepyep

[wanton bone]

Alright, so how do I get ||kidnapped|| (late act 1 for me)

Also, have the ||sinners road|| simple key. ||Green Prince or Deep Docks do people think?||

[hot mango]

Hang on I found one more bug that responds to the Needolin but gives no text. Act 3 spoiler, ||The Sprintmaster’s assistant bug||

[vagrant spruce]

||green prince|| quest minor spoilers - ||you cannot do anything meaningful with green prince until act 3, he'll walk around a tad but you can't do his quest until then. i would probably recommend deep docks as a result||

[dreamy scarab]

I think there are a couple of places. The place it happened to me: you need a movement skill (||Wallcling||), then you can go to the room ||just below Hunter's Reach at the top of Far Fields|| with that skill

[wanton bone]

Thank you! Found the spot!

[dreamy scarab]

have fun ||getting abducted||!

[hot mango]

Nevermind it does it just wasn’t working

[thorny bear]

maybe dumb question; do we know what exactly Hornet's moments of pain and slow walking in early game are?

i would assume ||her trying to fight off the haunting||

[safe yew]

my guess is the runecage really fucked her up or something

[thorny bear]

oh, that too

[elfin ravine]

I had assumed just being injured from falling from a great height

[autumn kettle]

imo it's definitely more the cage than the fall

[hoary tulip]

Hornet can fall from any height unscathed

[fervent sand]

She mentions at some point the cage sapped a lot of her strength