#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 18 of 1

brisk flax
#

I'm not sure but I think if you buy it, it comes with the lcp once you go to the actual download page

twin reef
#

And then there's a site where you can just download the LCP for PWYW.

rose hamlet
#

It’s here? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/393760/field-guide-liminal-space-lcp-files

Field Guide: Liminal Space LCP Files - Diamond Recreational Studios...

Field Guide: Liminal Space is a third-party supplement compatible with the incredible LANCER RPG published by Massif Press. It concerns itself with organizations and people that are between - that are trying to start a new life, who are trying to change because they cannot continue as they are, who live on frontiers and border-places, the fo...

indigo oasis
#

Ah there it is I couldn't find it in any of the pinned thread pages for the longest time

dapper sierra
#

this is a generalized NPC tinkering space, right?

trail pivot
#

✅

dapper sierra
#

hmmm.... we may have to Tinker....

trail pivot
#

specifcally for like, the existing ones yeah not for just hb'ing new ones, as far as Im aware

dapper sierra
#

oh ok
still interested in doing that some time but like yknow

#

good 2 kno

young laurel
#

Yeah, tinkering with pre-existing ones namely the CRB and 1st Party Stuff.
Maaaaybe even to the popular 3rd Party stuff if we are stretching it like Enhanced Combat but it is mostly for 1st Party stuff.

brisk flax
#

Yeah if people want to use this as a space to discuss ideas for NPC rebakes of their own or even just general NPC design theory I'm fine for it to be used as such, making brand new NPCs should PROBABLY go in homebrew or their own spinoff channel here

#

I'm kind of a hypocrite and have posted a couple of Suldan rebakes, I don't really care if people do that with other third party stuff BUT I do strongly advise asking the person in question first "hey is it cool for me to do this?"

#

I feel there's a distinction between messing with Tom's stuff and someone else's and I'm not sure I can properly articulate why I feel that way because I don't feel like Tom is on some higher level than any other game designer or his work is somehow set apart from the rest, it just feels (to me) like I wouldn't want to do something like rebakes of SSMR units like the Tempest or Leech without getting Shaka's approval first as otherwise I feel like it could be construed as me going "hey I want to show you how I'd do your own stuff but better"

#

But in general yeah

bold crystal
#

it's weird to do it to people who are on the 'same level' as you and also doing it to tom's stuff. they're already like, remixing his work.

#

not because he's on a 'higher level of design' than anyone doing that but, like,

#

I don't think there's a way to phrase this that doesn't implicitly elevate tom somehow but like, taking someone's essay, making your own adjustments, and turning that in. which still isn't quite right but anyway.

brisk flax
#

Yeah, it's a weird thing to try and adequately explain, but I think a lot of people kinda get the vibe of it

indigo oasis
#

And that rebaking the core NPCs is probably more fine not because they're necessarily better designed, but because they inherently set a precedent in NPC design and are somewhat foundational in that sense. People tend to have an easier time remixing foundational rules as opposed to tweaking add on rules, such as with 3rd party- messing with the foundations tends to have less of a cascading iterative effect and probably doesn't rub folks the wrong way either for the above reasons as well

#

If you're remixing core NPCs, there's a strong set of assumptions on the original design you can keep consistent across designers and use to jump off of. But if you're rebaking a 3rd party NPC for example, you have to assume their intent with their design based on their assumptions + thoughts on the precedented design. After a certain point it stops being constructive and starts being a really weird game of telephone

brisk flax
#

I'll put out there that I don't mind if anyone ever wants to do rebakes of my own stuff provided they're chill about it and not a weirdo

young laurel
#

The Rule is apparently too simple that President He has to make an announcement.
"Don't be a Dick!"

indigo oasis
#

I think explicitly giving permission goes a long way tbh, besides your design philosophy has been made extremely clear via the rebakes and as such any rebakes with your NPCs can gain an added level of care

#

But yeah I think it's mostly the permission thing

#

90% that

young laurel
#

Most definitely a permission thing

brisk flax
#

It's worth noting that I did start doing rebake stuff before asking tom "hey is this cool," I did ask him if it was okay for me to pursue it PROFESSIONALLY which is ALSO something I think you should do

#

like it's sort of a...idk, nobody ever bats an eye if you go "I'm gonna lower the HMG's damage by 2"

#

there's clearly a level of making changes to stuff that's just commonly accepted and nobody ever goes "hey did you get permission for that"

indigo oasis
#

Plenty of folks make their own home changes- I don't think most designers will balk at that. It's when the discussion goes public that it starts ramping up to a more "official" status

young laurel
#

Yeaaaaah, kinda doing the same but I suppose I should send a formal email instead of sending Tom a DM. (Cause I got no reply on that end.)

brisk flax
#

I think that doing a rebake-esque project goes a bit further beyond just houserules and into a more formalized statement of intent, if that makes sense

young laurel
#

Really does.

brisk flax
#

like if someone does some houserules that's just whatever, someone revising 30 NPCs feels more like a thesis

#

also taking it public, yeah

indigo oasis
#

There's a sort of gradient of commitment/publicity when it comes to this kinda thing

brisk flax
#

it doesn't help that there have historically been a lot of (not just talking about Lancer here) similar sorts of projects that kind of exist as someone going "take THAT!"

indigo oasis
#

I personally really wanna rebake some NPCs from a 3rd party book, but the problem is I feel like taking those ideas public would be kinda... insulting, in a way I have a hard time describing- as mentioned earlier it's hard to describe why

brisk flax
#

it feels weird to be like "I'm gonna redo your stuff" UNLESS it's Tom and then it feels more acceptable

indigo oasis
#

I feel no shame making rebakes for myself in private, but the catch22 is if I keep the ideas to myself I'm never gonna be satisfied with just the feedback in my own circle

trail pivot
#

i think its probably inherently tied to homebrewing itself, in a way. tom certainly isn't offended by someone making lancer homebrew, but someone else might find it odd/strange if say, I decided i was going to make alt frames of someone else's work because of X/Y/Z type deal

#

its also a much more direct/personal thing interacting with, say, the base TTRPG game, and interacting with some community member's personal fan work of that game,

indigo oasis
#

The best way I can describe an element of it, if not the whole of it, is it's the difference between redesigning a product vs a passion project

#

With a product, it's more distanced from the creator and they are, overall, having material gain from it, and because of your transaction you now own the product and can do what you wish with it. RIght to repair and all.

But with a passion project, you don't really "own" it, and the creator isn't really getting anything apart from gratification for releasing it. Reworking and redesigning it feels more like vandalism because it doesn't feel like it's yours so to speak

viral wadi
#

One big difference is that lancer has a codified 3rd party license, where it's explicitly "yes, build off this, I encourage you to use this game as a framework." While 3rd party works do not have that, and are not defaulted to being built for building off of.

indigo oasis
#

It's really messy to enforce copyright claims on fanart for a reason

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

Actually that's really apt

#

Kinda touches on my thing about "adding onto and messing with the foundational elements is more manageable than adding onto add ons"

#

Like the rebakes of the Wallflower NPCs seem like they're gonna come with a few extra logistical hurdles for that reason

indigo oasis
bold crystal
#

like, sure, you can, but you probably shouldn't

indigo oasis
#

Circumstantially it can be okay, but they gotta be a specific set of circumstances

#

Oh wait a bigger point popped up- plagiarism of fan works is a lot harder to police so rebaking fan works just kinda makes that whole thing messy when it comes to determining who contributed what

bold crystal
#

that too yeah

indigo oasis
#

Much easier to draw that line with 1st party due to both familiarity and also being foundational

viral wadi
#

Also, again, there is an actual license that grants permission.

brisk flax
young laurel
#

Yeah. 1st Party Stuff has the actual license for making 3rd Party as a good gate.

brisk flax
#

thanks

brisk flax
indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

not entirely anyway

#

it rips huge chunks of existing first-party text in a way that is very specifically not covered and requires special dispensation

#

I suppose it's fair to say the license existing at all lends precedent to more extensive remixes

viral wadi
bold crystal
#

also not having the blanket 'you have permission' doesn't necessarily, well, prevent it from happening anyway. which isn't relevant to lancer but more in general

brisk flax
#

Nah I get it

viral wadi
#

Not necessarily regarding the NPC stuff in particular. 😅

brisk flax
#

it does explain some of the more "open door" feelings of hacking tom's stuff versus Shaka's or Kat's etc

#

Also I want to self-aggrandizingly say I think it's neat that more people have started doing the Veteran class-specific trait thing

viral wadi
bold crystal
#

yeah.

viral wadi
brisk flax
#

Yeah 100%

#

Valk's doing it with his Prototype Pattern Groups and I believe Vex is doing some stuff with IGF NPCs

#

My big rule for this is basically I like attribution somewhere, and please don't be a dick

viral wadi
#

It's something that's been floating around in my head to do for Iridia NPCs, just have a document to say "hey, if you're doing Kai vets, you can use these traits," but I've never actually gotten around to really looking into it.

viral wadi
indigo oasis
#

I do think it’s a generic enough idea that it’s not necessarily a rebake compatible only idea or something but it cannot be denied that the Rebake acted as direct inspiration for many of those traits + the recent trend as a whole

viral wadi
#

I've seen other NPC types that have done stuff like Ultra-specific traits, but when you're doing something specifically for compatibility...

brisk flax
#

Yeah I don't think I necessarily stumbled upon some super incredibly unthought of before idea, but I do think there's been at least a bit of an uptick in "I should do this" post project

#

Yeah I've seen some Ultra class traits before but imo I found the concept to be sort of high-ceiling and more daunting than I felt like working with

#

my thing is that I want the Ultra template to be a big toybox, while the existing Veteran template IS a big toybox but it's all stuff that sucks and I wanted to pare it down

indigo oasis
#

You’re more likely to see a Veteran Class trait than an Ultra Class trait too, so it probably crops up more often as an optional rule thing too

brisk flax
#

doing Ultra class traits would be, imo, more limiting than I want, while the Veteran template is TOO open in a way that demands a lot of system mastery to navigate through a jungle of duds

viral wadi
young laurel
#

Yeah, CRB NPC stuff to mess around with is less... Well, risky is the best word here.
As compared to wanting to mess around with NPC stuff of things like Dustgrave Templates, Wallflower NPCs, SSMR NPCs, and Winter Scar NPCs and Templates.

#

I mean I'm personally gonna mess with them, but I won't be doing things like Kai's Rebake post on itch until I get express permission from them. (Best thing for now is that it stays here in the bowels of this server and only in my games.)

brisk flax
#

Yeah I will admit that it is cheating a bit on my part that I'm sometimes able to talk to tom over a discord call and just say "hey can I do this?"

viral wadi
#

Psh, if you have the tools, use 'em.

brisk flax
#

In fairness, he's usually the one who needs to talk to me about something else first

trail pivot
#

ive consider the ultra-traits per class mode versus veteran, and i think that, in a sense part of my decision for choosing ot do it the way im going about it is to kind of Elevate the status of the ultra, into something more notably daunting, siloed off, and iconic for the "feel" of each npc, but also as a way to kind of sit there and have the ultra use things typically otherwise associated with Player mechs

#

All that being said, im also rather experienced in maknig custom bespoke ultra traits and have done so a lot so a lot of this is me just digging through my old bag of tricks to formalize them

#

granted i am planning on giving the operator a modified version of the Short Cycle lance

young laurel
rose hamlet
#

I legit started making Ultra features because I came up with a cool veteran feature (Evergaol, a Mordekaiser-like shadow duel effect) that was WAY too flashy and impactful to be a veteran feature, so I upgraded it lol

#

It was absolutely for stuff that I did NOT want to manage multiple times per fight

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
rose hamlet
indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

But yeah I don’t have a monopoly on the concept of “extend the ultra template covered by the third party license” or any template for that matter, I just extend ‘em

If other folks wanna do Ultra traits then go off fam (and I believe Maria already has, even long before I did, as mentioned upthread)

dapper sierra
#

Fascinating conversation to read back on 🙂‍↕️

#

We think we can summarize the root of our rebake ambitions with a message we sent a little bit ago

brisk flax
#

I mean technically the assault has a grenade launcher in its optionals

dapper sierra
#

It's not the same but it is true

mighty granite
# brisk flax it feels weird to be like "I'm gonna redo your stuff" UNLESS it's Tom and then i...

i think possibly because of like either a layer of seperation - (ie modifying lancer does not really feel like modifying toms work, your modifying LANCER)
meanwhile modifying someones homebrew or other thing feels more directly connected

or perhaps its something wheres its like.. because its out there officially, its.. different. its been placed out there for the world to pick apart, modify, critise, etc... while homebrew isnt the same vibe

... i think its more of the first, but these are just theories.

rose hamlet
#

That social worry layer exists for the freelanced 1st party stuff yeah, agreed, even if it falls under the Lancer Third Party License as a result

brisk flax
# dapper sierra

Coming back to this after a busy day, I suppose my broad-strokes advice would be to figure out what it is you want out of something like this, why it is you want to give it this thing and what you hope to achieve with it, etc

#

My own personal design philosophy isn't the One True Way, it's just one potential avenue, but it gives me a lens to look through when I'm putting stuff together

#

So through THAT lens, I would say "a cover-check striker doesn't really need a grenade that's just a splash damage tool because that's somewhat disconnected from everything else, but something that could knock people out of cover would work nicely," hence why the rebake's Underslung Grenade Launcher now has Knockback 2 when it previously didn't, etc

#

But you need to decide what your specific aim is with your implementation and use that as the foundation

dapper sierra
#

ye
we think with a rebake on our end it'd be more like
Take the vibes of the NPC and make a functionally new NPC out of it

#

than refining the original identities

#

and, wdk
generic fps protagonist with an assault rifle, knife, and frag grenade seems like, fun

#

it's largely a vibes thing

young laurel
#

Hmm, it is pretty clear what Kai's Rebaked philosophy is when regarding the NPC tinkering.

I should iron out mine as well. But I think mine is leaning towards making them mechanically interesting (if a bit harder to use for the new/average GM)

Which is kinda rough but I 've come this far already. With it.

brisk flax
#

I think, personally, everyone should have an idea of what their design intent is

#

a lot of people say "well I'm doing what I think is cool" and like yeah I don't wanna knock that, but EVERYONE is doing what they think is cool

#

I think it really helps to develop an understanding of what your particular "cool" is about, and then once you have a solid sort of framework for that, it really does make further design easier

#

or at least it does for me

indigo oasis
#

Yeah what I find cool personally is finding unique niches in the 1st party roster and going as far as possible with filling it- mainly in a mechanical sense, and ideally keeping it as simple as possible to avoid deviating too much from the rest of the game’s design

#

If you can do something really unique with very basic and simple mechanics that’s probably the coolest thing I could imagine

young laurel
mighty granite
#

I have a problem: I can no longer give my engineers Shepard field for cinematic hydra reasons —-

Even if I cross classed it, it wouldn’t do anything unless the turrets were more durable

#

Hmm

#

What do

restive fable
#

make it give them Armor?

indigo oasis
#

Allies that give overshield

#

A Grunt with Overshield and Resistance becomes a full blown character

mighty granite
#

idk really how to say this, but I will say one thing I think lost some depth was the fact that priests lost the fact they apply 2 resistance.. thingies, on average

before it sort of.. forced teamplay, kinda? Ynless you overcharge or something you cannot get past 2 shield layers all on your own

Overshield being built in compensates i think but, mildly sad. It’s mechanically easier to run, I think, by a bit.

#

Then again also I don’t has much priest experience

brisk flax
#

I don't like the weird 1d3 randomness out of nowhere and don't think it actually contributes very much to the experience

#

making it one use of resistance plus overshield is pretty strong if you're using damage against it

#

and if you use heat to pop the resistance, well, you still have a big untouched chunk of overshield to deal with now

#

also "unless you overcharge you can't get past two shield layers on your own" isn't true at all

#

anybody that can skirmish with an aux/aux or main/aux or integrated weapon or etc can very easily do it

twin reef
#

Invade will do it too.

#

Like, that's one of the ways to penetrate investiture.

brisk flax
#

Yeah you can full tech up to two Dispersal Shields off someone, though a double weapon skirmish is even more action efficient at it

#

anyway I'm kind of skeptical that the 1d3 applications actually promoted a lot of teamwork versus brute force

trail pivot
#

i've found it just meant people flat out ignored it or bypassed it really i don't see the point of the 1d3 either tbh beyondjust an extra gm action to perform

restive fable
#

Had a pretty funny moment with rebaked Priests running up and giving Improved Investiture to a pet Goliath then grappling the Goliath to ride on it

I like the change to dispersal shield just for mental overhead purposes

(I think I forgot that heat pops the resistance though)

mighty granite
#

Yeah, ok

#

Fair enough

indigo oasis
#

What are some good Rebake Ultra traits for “nerfing an Ultra” in heavy quotes? Like if you wanna use an Ultra but wanna make them slightly more fragile or something?

#

Siege Shield on a Bombard is one idea

brisk flax
#

frankly, the easiest way is probably giving them Evasive

indigo oasis
#

That's what I was thinking

#

It's probably group dependent- a group with reliable damage would do trivially agaisnt an evasive silvershielded ultra, and a Shred Heavy group would do good against an Ultra w/ a resistance trait... and also evasive if the shredder in question is a swallowtail

restive fable
#

I'd normally say Wolfhound Missiles but they're actually less likely to blow up in an Ultra's face now

#

Also, I swapped to Rebake Hound missiles and finally blew one up on a player after about 16 months of GMing

#

they passed the check, but still...

indigo oasis
#

Question: how come the Archers kept their 15 sensors despite their weapon being range 10 and any abilities with range keying off of either LoS in general or the LMG range?

#

Checked the design notes and didn’t see anything on that so I’m curious, since the rebake’s goal was to consolidate range bands more

brisk flax
#

I didn't feel it overtly necessary

#

It's a difference but not one I really feel is pointless as something like 10 sensors and a range 8 weapon

#

I don't inherently think every sensor range needs to be bound up to every weapon range, the sniper doesn't have parity either in the opposite direction (sensors 15, weapon range 20)

#

but if there's a bunch of weird values for no real reason or benefit I can discern, like the Assault having a bunch of range 8 stuff and then a range 10 gun, I'm less likely to care about preserving that 2 space dynamic, or with the Hive where bringing the weapon range up both puts it in line with its sensors and makes up for a speed reduction on a unit that was previously notable (in part) for being very fast

#

There's an argument for hemming the Archer's sensor range in, but it's not something I feel particularly pulls it in a weird direction or is likely to cause a lot of weird mental friction when running one, I don't think it would harm it to have Sensors 10 but I also don't think it having Sensors 15 really creates any problems that I felt compelled to address

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I can agree with that. It’s an oddity but not one that’s causing any harm- I suppose it makes it more cohesive with certain template features and that’s it

indigo oasis
#

If I can be kinda. Dramatic for a bit. I feel like this project has acted as a small “renaissance” for the folks following it, since the open design discussion and fundamental reassessment of Lancer’s core design ideas has given folks a lot of new perspectives on Lancer design.

I just keep seeing the Rebakes mentioned as inspiration for a lot of things and while the Veteran traits are the main thing. Idk. It feels like the project has taught a lot of people a lot of things that are gonna have a positive impact on design.

#

It’s certainly impacted me that way

tall turret
#

Mhm, I personally found the really enlightening

#

I don't agree with everything in it, but it made me realize "hey, Lancer is good but it's got some big issues"

rose hamlet
#

yeah, I think it's important to recognize that there's always ways to refine a TTRPG and iterate on their design, and Kai's Rebake is all about that

#

no system is ever truly "done"

#

I do think there's a silent "I like this system" prefacing any houserule for that system

dapper sierra
indigo oasis
#

But to stick to the positives, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with some of the takes, the project did take a crowbar and opened up the hood of the system to see how exactly it ticked while showing everyone following the project Kai’s takes on it. That kind of deep interrogation is gonna refamiliarize folks with the foundational elements of the system in a very positive way, while also leaving plenty of room for people to build on that with their own ideas

subtle nacelle
#

Question: Is Witch's Dark Cloud 7 heat when in DZ at the time the heat would pop or at the time Tear down was applied?

bold crystal
#

it's not changed in wording from core, which I believe is at the time the heat pops

brisk flax
#

I don't really personally view it as a "fix project" so to speak

mighty granite
#

ah i see Kai hates Lancer (real) (true) (factual) (real)

kingdom hearts 2 Kai Tave has screwed us once again!

modern jackal
#

Should've voted for Nocturne

tall turret
tall turret
#

*Of course all of these changes are from my own personal opinion which has been influenced and changed by other peoples’ own opinions; this is by no means an objective or perfect solution to making Lancer’s NPCs more enjoyable to fight. This is my attempt to make the combat more enjoyable for the PCs and, hopefully by extension, the GM. If you want to run Lancer without any changes or with other changes, that is perfectly fine. I am not here to preach this is the one true way to run Lancer because it is not, this is merely one way to do it.

“Your fun is valid, you play however you want.” - DeficientMaster*

rose hamlet
tall turret
#

A few of the Kai Rebake changes did find their way in because I personally think they were excellent ideas

#

The Barricade retooling, the Avenger's Vanguard Armor, and Seeder's mine overhaul are my personal favorites from Kai's Rebake

#

Overall my perspective on how to change Lancer is different, but you’ve done some amazing work Kai

young laurel
#

Really did, some of Kai's Rebaked stuff and Maria's Alternate stuff slithered into my own changes. Hell, it is even directly influencing things I am changing that they haven't which is pretty neat tbh.

carmine pendant
indigo oasis
#

Ya know what’s something I like about the Rebake Artillery? They all live and die off of their supporting allies,

Snipers can barely get decent targets without help, Rainmakers can’t get their full benefits without some lock on help (it’s hard to get consistent Skyhammer Salvo Procs), Bombards are Bombards not many changes there, and Operators are vulnerable to damage and have a rougher time breaking armor.

The Rebake definitely highlighted this explicitly in the design notes, but I just like how all the other roles are capable of independent operation to a degree, whereas artillery has difficulty functioning without help. Still dangerous, still have some degree of self sufficiency, but they need more help to achieve peak performance.

mighty granite
tall turret
#

Though all of the changes can be manually done in Foundry

mighty granite
tall turret
#

Ah

#

Yeah that’s fair

indigo oasis
#

Tbh with the way stun is used in NPCs (yes even the wild ones like Drain Systems) it’s used wisely enough that the main cause of “people not liking stun” is almost exclusively structure rolls

#

Got stunned by a Demolisher? You fucked around and found out, this was pretty avoidable.
Got stunned by an Assassin or Specter? You played into their strengths by being alone with them but can undo this if a Buddy comes over

#

Are there any other ways CRB NPCs can stun?

trail pivot
#

its either the priest or the mirage i forget which which has the anti hit button

#

i did end up removing stunned from demo and using the Specter's stun specifically as a guideline for what i think i would aim for, as far as NPC's go

#

but i removed stunned from the demo hammer so i could make it more threatening

#

and more useful

rose hamlet
#

oh, yeah, Priest has the Fractal Assault thing, right

trail pivot
#

giving the demo hammer reliable knockback is one of my favorite/proudest gestures

#

alongside making the hammer no longer inaccurate

#

or AP

#

i just enjoy the new hammer more because now you have to actually respect the demolisher

image.png
rose hamlet
#

I dig it from a standpoint of shifting it from projected threat to direct deterrence

trail pivot
#

and it still keeps a projected threat because getting knocked prone after getting punted like a baseball and taking most of your hp in a single hit is still painful

#

exp since its no longer swinging at difficulty

rose hamlet
#

reliable knockback is funny as hell, I'm here for it

trail pivot
#

2 speed and 2 threat superheavy, they deserve it

rose hamlet
#

yeah especially if you keep em 2 speed, agreed

bold crystal
#

oh I love reliable knockback

indigo oasis
#

6 Knockback??

#

That’s straight up just a DD-288

young laurel
young turtle
#

That's fine if they let the demolisher get close they deserve the hammer

rose hamlet
#

They may need to be the ones approaching the Demolisher

young laurel
#

True, boy is slow. But this makes Demolisher with ANY form of mobility assist, a very dangerous combo.

young turtle
#

If they're in a sitrep that requires them to move and the demolisher is in the path sure yeah, I think in a control sitrep that's a lot more on players imo

young laurel
#

Fair

trail pivot
#

its also knock back 6

#

also 6 knocback isn't crazy considering what drone barrage or ferroush lash give on a Quick Action

young laurel
#

True, oh wait am I to assume that is 6 Knockback flat on all tiers?

trail pivot
#

yeah

young laurel
#

Ah that's fair

trail pivot
#

genuinely considering making it 8 knockback, even, tbh i migt want to reun it a bit more

young laurel
#

6 Knockback is enough I reckon

rose hamlet
#

Yeah no stuff that requires full actions is good to add a “guarantee” on top

#

From barrages to full techs

young laurel
#

The middle between inconveniencing fast-average speedy boys, and screwing over slower builds.

rose hamlet
#

There’s a good reason pathfinder 2e puts degrees of success on all its 2-action spells

trail pivot
#

tbh if a slow build managed to get that close to be hammed by the demo that's really on them

young laurel
#

True enough

indigo oasis
#

I like reliable Knockback but the full Knockback on a Miss just kinda rubs me the wrong way tbh

trail pivot
#

they can take the full

young turtle
trail pivot
#

that is something, yeah

#

ive used the 6 knockback version already and my conclusions were "Yeah this is kind of alright but there's room to make it scarier, imo

rose hamlet
#

My brain says half knockback on miss but like, if full knockback works, it works

indigo oasis
#

It is good to remember the Demolisher does have 2 speed, so its effective range is a bit bigger than 2. If a character gets knocked 4 spaces from a Demolisher (starting adjacent), the Demolisher can close the gap and hit them again if they don’t move

trail pivot
#

that is true but the purpse of the demo isnt to repeatedly hit someone

indigo oasis
#

Ofc ofc

young laurel
#

Demolisher Defender is now just a "Get the fuck away from my spot."

#

kind of NPC

trail pivot
#

the demo can also just not choose knockback if it wanted to do that, i am building the demon firmly under the philosophy of "Get the fuck off of my spot" yeah

indigo oasis
#

It just occurred to me that that would be a reason you would wanna keep full Knockback on a miss

#

Make it more all or nothing rather than best of both worlds

young laurel
trail pivot
#

its basically this already in core im just kind of refocusing and making it consistent.

rose hamlet
#

Yeah, leaning into the rearguard energy

indigo oasis
#

You can always walk away from a Demolisher without punishment, so that is fair

rose hamlet
#

Stunned enemies are still sitting on your control zone, contesting your points

young laurel
#

A lot of ideas Kai and Maria had have weaseled their way into my own changes. (Albeit with personal alterations)

They are just that good.

young laurel
rose hamlet
indigo oasis
young laurel
#

I cast Mirage NPC

indigo oasis
#

But who knows, maybe Maria’s Mirage has it’s mobility assist system modified

trail pivot
#

havent gotten to it yet

young laurel
#

This is my personal alteration to Maria's demo hammer. Feels more fair, but perhaps I should take the gloves off as well.

image.png
trail pivot
#

but also even with the mirage helping, its still a 2 turn comba

#

i think that, realisticalyl speaking, that hammer has no threat to it anymore, imo,

indigo oasis
#

I do have to agree there tbh

trail pivot
#

its much less likely to hit and being hit is less punishing so anyone with some kind of agi investment suddenly has even less to fear than usual

#

esp if you keep the demolisher's original save target scaling

indigo oasis
#

To be pedantic it reads more like replacing core Demo’s rider with Maria’s rider that modding Maria’s hammer

young laurel
#

True enough, making it a guaranteed knockback would make it more fearful still considering I'm keeping the difficulty.

#

Maybe 4/5/6 guaranteed knockback even on a miss would work then

indigo oasis
#

With the knock back numbers on this one coupled with the lower damage + difficulty it could probably have the miss Knockback equal the regular Knockback

young laurel
#

Lower damage yes, but this weapon is armor piercing still

indigo oasis
#

Looking at Maria’s demo actually, if the difficulty got removed I do wonder if the damage needed to be so high? But I guess it has a +0 to hit at all tiers so… actually a +0 to hit at all tiers makes it scale kinda wonky

#

If the +0 to hit at all tiers is meant to be a way to permit it to have more power I’m not entirely sure if that’s gonna scale consistently- feels like it has the potential to become swingy depending on if the target it’s attacking has high evasion or not

trail pivot
#

yes thats the point

young laurel
#

Its not meant to be an accurate attack

#

Its meant to throw people around

indigo oasis
#

Fair, tho I meant moreso in the sense of… it’s strength increase doesn’t look consistent

trail pivot
#

The swinginess is part of the Threat, and its already made to be consistent by virtue of always having a high knockback to it on big slow, short ranged HP brick

indigo oasis
#

Well if it’s intended no arguing with that

young laurel
#

I like Maria's change to make the Demolisher absolutely obsessed with the concept of keeping its personal space safe for it.

trail pivot
#

It's strength is consistent because its always going to be doing a high amount of knockback to remake lost progress, and now it's carrying a generally higher chance to hit more evasive targets

young laurel
#

Demolisher: "Get out of my comfort zone."
Player: "Get out of your comfort zone!"

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

considering that an average CRB demolisher's rolls are going to be looking like 7/8/9 at tiers 1 2 and 3, as far as scaling gos

changing it to just a flat raw d20 already improves the likelylyhood of hitting without suddenly making otherwise evasive targets have to consistently fear getting hit

#

Yes and even with more agility and more diffciulty

#

its still going to send them flying anyway

#

regardless of how much effort they put into not gfetting the shit knocked out of them its still going to move them away anyway

indigo oasis
#

It is interesting, not bad, that this Demolisher looks at the usual ways of mitigating incoming attacks, and just says “those don’t work, stay out of my space.” Truly only a Sunzi or a Heavy Frame character can stand next to a demo with any security

young laurel
#

The fear of the knockback is actually just as dangerous as just getting one-tap structured by the Demolisher

trail pivot
#

i dont think those would be "Secure" standing next to a demo either

young laurel
#

As knockback could make or break future turns and plans

indigo oasis
#

Idk, it seems like an NPC that very adamantly forces everyone to play by its rules with little wiggle room for avoiding that… unrelated but wait Orchis I forgot that was all missed attack effects

trail pivot
#

no there's plenty of room to avoid it

indigo oasis
#

“That” being “playing by its rules” I mean

trail pivot
#

its 2 speed and 2 threat you can just kind of walk around the guy,

young laurel
#

Unless the funny demolisher has its dash attack optional (but you won't know that until it happens. :] )

indigo oasis
#

A Sentinel’s game can be disabled by shutting down its reactions, likely via grapple. A Bastion’s game can be shut down via AP or force moving Allies away from it. A Core Demolisher’s game can be shut down by making yourself harder to hit or making it have a harder time hitting- this one kinda just. Shuts that type of counterplay down.

trail pivot
#

increasing your evasion is not a counterplay

indigo oasis
#

I meant impair

young laurel
#

It really isn't yeah

indigo oasis
#

From FragSig

trail pivot
#

also the CRB demo already has a hard time hitting things

indigo oasis
#

I suppose that’s fair yeah

trail pivot
#

i can gaurantee you that "i take 6 knockback" is far preferable to "i take 6 knockback and also 12 to 20 damage and also im prone"

#

so increasing your evasion still works

#

you just have to actually respect the demolisher now when you eventually get close enough to it after 6 turns of watching itt fumble around

young laurel
#

It might be worth looking back at all of my NPCs' abilities now to see if there are any minute things that I need to change and or have missed.

young laurel
#

Why does it feel like NPCs with 'similar yet different in their own way' niches are sometimes more interesting than PC mech building?

rose hamlet
#

Because NPCs are inherently containerized

#

You can play Legos with them, sure, but end of the day you really only care about the NPC’s own kit and maybe how it interacts with CRB templates

#

With NPCs, you don’t need to worry about how a piece of licensed gear is going to interact with Daisy Cutter or some PC option yet to be released

mighty granite
mighty granite
brisk flax
young laurel
#

In terms of NPC design homebrew-wise and NPC assembling

opal folio
#

re: the aegis' updated defense shield: is it intended that every missed piece of terrain/cover also contributes to heat? that seems like it would be excessive tbh

bold crystal
#

it is in the wording but, I suspect probably not intended in a similar way to how core bombards aren't actually supposed to get bonus damage from random rocks

#

though it is also fairly difficult to miss objects(5 evasion) even with 2 difficulty.

brisk flax
#

The wording is "characters and objects" so strictly speaking yeah it does work that way

#

as far as intent goes, frankly I don't think it's excessive in the sense that you're supposed to try and be able to force the Aegis into having to make choices beyond "stand there with the umbrella open for the whole fight"

#

specifically there has to actually be stuff there, you can't go "I miss this empty space"

#

I'll put it thusly: I don't immediately feel compelled to issue some sort of change to it, and it hasn't come back to me that it's been a huge issue so far

mighty granite
#

That’s a rule I think j remember checking it, unless my memory is bad

bold crystal
mighty granite
#

Yeah fair enough

#

I really had no idea about the template thing until recently to be fair

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

this sort of depends on whether you feel the "this affects characters" wording in the template attacks section is deliberate or simply an omission

#

I'm not particularly hard up to try and pin tom down about it

bold crystal
#

does it say characters when it means targets? dunno. it's not super important because like largely people assume the big explosions can damage terrain, and all.

opal folio
#

but it is a fairly limited issue since a player figured out they could use pinakas and tlaloc to force-reroll a bunch of attacks to heatgun the aegis. which is clever and valid but kind of a pain to actually play through!

brisk flax
#

Sorry I'm on Team Pinaka here

#

My advice is to have the player shoulder as much of the mechanical burden as they can

vestal jackal
#

honestly I think that's a very interesting maneuver on their part

#

just take advantage of all that heat build up and throw in a witch

#

btw, so glad that the rebake removed the acrobat trait

#

"yes please give me defenders with 5-6 fucking speed this is definitely going to make the game even more fun"

indigo oasis
#

As a recap- are there any Wallflower Rebake aspects higher on the priority list for playtesting?

rose hamlet
#

I’ve been wanting to run another Spite at least

brisk flax
#

Avengers and Spites seem in the most solid shape so far

ancient forge
#

Okay good, I’ve been inserting striders into upcoming fights

indigo oasis
#

Are Lurkers close to being solid?

ancient forge
#

Just a matter of when we actually get to them. Surely no more than a year out

brisk flax
#

So yeah primarily I'd like strider testing, it's still a lot of moving parts, lurkers can also get some more testing as well

minor hound
brisk flax
#

Acrobat, 99% of the time, was only ever used to turn Speed 2 NPCs into Speed 5 NPCs

minor hound
#

Yeah, that was more of a silly setup anyways.

vestal jackal
#

funniest one i've ever seen was an acrobat cataphract

#

....why_?_

fluid zodiac
#

Fast

cunning marlin
#

Really fking fast

young laurel
#

He is The Fast

vale crescent
#

I was looking at striders... I assume it is known a vet strider with weathering can drop prone as a protocol and then run at full speed (but slowed)

brisk flax
# 
Is it worth being perma-slowed for +1 difficulty on attacks? Also being perma-slowed means no additional sources of movement like Reposition, kit bonus movement, etc
Slowed means Standard Move Only

you go from "Slowed + Difficult Terrain" to "Slowed," which on a still somewhat fragile artillery/striker that wants to flexibly reposition, isn't super ideal
if someone really wants to do it that way I think at a glance it's probably fine and doesn't break anything because staying prone still makes several elements of the strider's kit harder to use```
# 
I certainly don't mind this being stress-tested to see if it's an issue. I largely see it being, if someone really wants to exploit it, being part of a swap loop where the marksman goes prone while the skirmisher stands up and is mobile, so it would largely form a defense bonus for the marksman```
vale crescent
#

Sick

indigo oasis
#

Since Monstrosity doesn’t have a Vet trait, I had an idea

Primal Exertion
Monstrosity Veteran Trait

1/round when the Monstrosity would take Heat, it may instead choose to be Jammed until the start of its next turn.

Specifically to interact w/ Limitless. Sure it can attack w/ Overcharge, but it’s gonna need to tank damage if it wants to do so. Otherwise, no reactions and non-weapon attacks only. Which for Monstrosity doesn’t really affect it outside Claws and Spittle (and reactions ofc). Kinda hard to Jam a monstrosity otherwise anyway so it’s a rare condition for it.

brisk flax
#

The Strider rebake has more incentives to remain in one kit than the wallflower version does, which almost always wants to be swapping back and forth every single time to recharge the long rifle, so doing this Ranger Training Weathering loop means you're going to be giving up one set of bonuses (Marksman Kit bonuses) for another (the prone defense bonus)

vale crescent
#

Do you mean skirmisher?

brisk flax
# vale crescent Do you mean skirmisher?

If you do this constant going prone thing, I assume you will want to keep swapping back from Marksman to Skirmisher rather than staying in Marksman. If you do this, you lose the opportunity to cash in on Marksman Kit Bonuses which only occur when you stay in the Marksman Kit. I mean, you CAN stay in Marksman, but you'll be permanently slowed while doing so, if that seems like a fair trade to you then go for it

#

Swapping kits will let you stand from prone and get Skirmisher SWAP bonuses

#

remember, the Strider has two sets of bonuses now

#

1). Swap bonuses (self-explanatory)
2). Kit bonuses (you have to stay in the kit and NOT swap)

indigo oasis
#

As a small slightly separate note to anyone using the Strider for playtests- if you’re debating which kit to start with upon deployment. Have it be Skirmisher.

This is probably common knowledge to anyone whose used striders extensively before, but I learned the hard way that even if the Strider deploys upon entry in the perfect snipers post, Skirmisher Kit is just so much better to start with for a variety of reasons (deploy Smoke Bomb to setup for Sniping, swap kits to ignore Ordnance and Fire from a better position, protocol move, the swap bonus going into Skirmisher kit is near useless at range, etc).

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

Nice, I can dig it. Opfor comps are great for rapid drag and drop and I think more folks should consider them

The big thing to note about the Tom Special, IMO, is how much innate armor and resistance it has using CRB. The numbers are low, yeah, but the units are thick (especially Barricade with its always-on kinetic resist).

#

Your rebake removes the Barricade’s resistance, which imo is good for teaching new players damage expectations in this context

indigo oasis
#

Would the Rebake Lurker go better in a control or escort in y’all’s opinion?

rose hamlet
#

Lurker can rotate between positions quickly with shrouds

#

It can contest a zone and fall back when necessary

#

I’d say on paper I’d wanna run it on Control more so, but it has Vanguard applications on escort

indigo oasis
#

I was debating whether I wanted to swap it to a different sitrep for this mission I'm building, but I think keeping the Lurker in the Control is for the best (paired with the Strider, PPG Anchor, and indeterminate other NPCs)

young laurel
#

I've always seen the Lurker as this strange Defender/Striker hybrid

indigo oasis
#

I personally classify it as a Controller/Striker tbh, the Shroud Zones share a lot of similarities w/ the Hive and with the Rebake it has a few force move effects.

#

It's not a defender in that it can hold zones for very long or protect allies very well in my exp

rose hamlet
#

I classify it as a Vanguard/Assailant now

#

It can rotate easy and drive folks away from zones but isn’t necessarily great at holding zones like a rearguard

brisk flax
# young laurel I've always seen the Lurker as this strange Defender/Striker hybrid

I mention in the notes that I think it could be made into a defender with some tweaking, similar to the demolisher and pyro, as a sort of "rearguard" in valk's parlance, but I think that's more a product of it's deceptively slow speed rather than any other quality it brings to the table. By default it's a bit of a feast or famine unit, tough until it isnt

opal folio
# brisk flax thinking about doing a thing

this is a really good idea, i've seen a lot of new GMs ask about good NPC combos and I'm sure there are some interesting comps that even experienced GMs could learn from

#

anything that makes lancer more 'drag n drop' is really valuable imo

twin reef
#

You forgot to mention a Chomolungma in terms of forced movement options. Every group should bring at least one at LL0, though not too many.

young laurel
# brisk flax I mention in the notes that I think it could be made into a defender with some t...

Might be more interesting (maybe hit or miss) to have it lean more into the gimmick of it's Umbral Shrouds. As in make more of them but also far easier to deal with.

Me personally, I'd make it Size 1/2 and have it function almost similarly to the Hecatoncheires (which is ironically what I could compare it the closest to) while also giving it some survivability outside of it's Umbral Shrouds. But not so much it renders the advantages of the Umbral Shrouds moot.

trail pivot
#

im letting my lurker take sit on the back burner for now as i continue marching onwards through my other npc plans, and the hornet alternative is turning out better than I expected

#

debating on if i'd keep supersonic or not,

young laurel
#

Hornet is just the one annoying Impaired dealing machine.

vestal jackal
young laurel
#

I said annoying, never said unkillable

indigo oasis
#

You know with the rebake Demolisher, you could give it the Marine Template to give it Battering Ram and pair with Earthshatter’s ability to make terrain. For most of the off turns it’s just boost+, sure, but if it ever does setup or first or has the right terrain around it, then it can boost and use Battering Ram to essentially double boost. It’s handy :D

brisk flax
# 
Enemy Forces: 
For 3 PCs:    
1x Barricade (Hunger/Pursuit Limpets)
2x Cataphract
1x Ultra Seeder (FASCAM, Speed Deployer, Harbinger Rockets, Sidereal Realignment, Nova Missiles)

For 4 PCs:     
+2x Controller-Type Grunts
+2x Defender-Type Grunts

For 5 PCs:
Seeder: Add Veteran template and Mag Mines trait.```

watching baseball
indigo oasis
#

Did the baseball go badly?

brisk flax
#

it's just a thing people say online when something in a game gets weird

indigo oasis
#

Huh, learn something new every day

brisk flax
#

I might also Veteranize the Barricade at 5 players to give the opfor a bit more durability outside of the ultra

indigo oasis
#

Anyhow glad you recreated the feeling of fighting after an Iskander uses its core power

#

Wonder if Spike Barrier would perhaps be too much

brisk flax
#

I think if I make the Barricade a vet, I'll list Seismic Repulsor

#

though something I'm doing with these is only providing specific optionals when I feel it's something strongly integral to the comp as I'm envisioning it functioning

indigo oasis
#

Hunger/Pursuit Limpets feels required since it fits into the theme

brisk flax
#

like the cataphracts up there have no listed optionals but that's not so much "don't give them any" as "I'm leaving this a blank canvas"

#

I'll be discussing potential optional choices in each section

indigo oasis
#

Capacitor Discharge definitely isn’t necessary but it would be on theme

#

It is interesting how this hits multiple of the “difficult to conceptualize” notes of potential OpFors- an Ultra Seeder, a Controller Focused Ultra, and no additional full-fledged NPCs for higher PC counts

brisk flax
#

Yeah, I aspirationally want to include a section that talks about reinforcements in a broader sense rather than listing double budget opfors each time, so in theory this could have a full set of reinforcements to go along with it as well if you want to go that route

#

Wake the Furies from Solstice Rain functions similarly, all the NPCs are up front and you pretty much only get templates as the PC numbers advance plus a limited amount of grunt reinforcements

indigo oasis
#

To be perfectly honest, I never would’ve come up with something like this on my own. I’d keep feeling like there’s not enough damage or be fixated on role diversity or worry about the movement shut down, but the fact there’s an Ultra and the specific class choices make that kinda a. Non issue so to speak. seeing it as an example gives me little bravery when it comes to “going too hard on a gimmick”

brisk flax
#

It's a comp I'd hope to see get run through its paces some to see if it has any real glaring issues, it might be a bit swingy in terms of damage output given it lives or dies based on how well you can rope people into the mines

indigo oasis
#

It definitely feels like an OpFor that does the most punishment when it comes to completing a Sitrep rather than just being a straight up deathmatch

#

You sure about giving Veteran to the Seeder rather than any of the supporting NPCs? Feels a little like putting all the eggs in one basket but I’m admittedly still learning when it comes to building OpFors from scratch

brisk flax
#

either that or I'll swing it in earlier

indigo oasis
#

Ah right ofc

brisk flax
#

I'm in the middle of a truly infuriating apartment move at the moment so I have no idea when I'm going to have the time and mental energy to work on something consistently, but in the meantime here's what I've been chipping away at

📎 NPCs_Rebaked_-_OPFOR_Files.pdf
tulip hawk
#

Right after I'd just run the tom special for some folks this week, my timing is awful

#

I had called the rebake sitrep "Tom's Diner"

tropic grotto
#

I think this wording is consistent but I'm confused on it within core as well, for the pyro's firebreak, does the line need to start from a point in range 3 but can extend out in any direction 5 units?

smoky bluff
#

You read that as intended

brisk flax
tame obsidian
bold crystal
#

well that's what the trait does.

indigo oasis
tame obsidian
#

For a veteran trait, that seems largely ineffectual

#

just comparing it to other vet traits

indigo oasis
#

The thing is Veteran Monstrosities, if using the Kai Veteran, get Limitless

#

But without a Heat Cap, they pretty much have to take damage to use it, and they don’t really get more HP than other NPCs to compensate

#

That, and Monstrosities naturally get more optionals than other NPCs due to being required to take mutations, so having a less applicable vet trait sounds fine to me to prevent surplus complexity

vestal jackal
#

They don’t have to worry about overstressing

indigo oasis
#

Again, they don’t have more HP than the average NPC to compensate for that conversion, nor have any inherent resistance trait, meaning yes they don’t have to worry about overstressing, because they would die significantly faster

#

They also can’t stabilize to clear the consequences of taking heat or stressing

tame obsidian
#

they quite literally have a heal as part of their optionals

indigo oasis
vestal jackal
#

Idk if jamming is as much of a threat as taking heat is though

#

What does it really stop them from doing*?* using some reactions*?*

indigo oasis
#

It’s supposed to be less of a threat on purpose

indigo oasis
tame obsidian
#

Jamming prevents attacking aside from ramming, grappling and improvised attack, taking or benefitting from tech actions, (and can't use comms)

fathom root
#

funny thing is that monstrosities come with base armor. if you increase that armor, it has a higher chance of not even getting damaged by the overcharge\

#

industrial monstrosities my favourites...

tame obsidian
#

I still don't know, I reckon a better veteran trait is one that buffs the monstrosity's stuff directly or gives it an extra passive, in line with other veteran traits. Something random I'm thinking of would be something like... Beefy Resilience: If the Monstrosity would take structure, ignore a result that would destroy it, instead stunning it.

#

Or heck, make energy damage heal it! (nuc cav players crying)

vestal jackal
indigo oasis
indigo oasis
ancient forge
#

Healing from energy damage would make overcharging as a veteran strictly a better form of the regeneration optional

#

Extra action, recover health, can’t be disabled through application of the correct damage type

indigo oasis
#

There’s also that resistance optional, and if you made the resisted damage explosive and kinetic then the Monstrosity becomes excessively tanky

#

Trying to expand the monstrosities capabilities comes with the issue that it doesn’t really have a core identity beyond not being a mech, and literally only has 2 base traits- claws and using a unique structure damage table.

#

So implementing a feature targeting the fact it doesn’t have a heat cap yet has Limitless seems like the best way to compromise so to speak.

bold crystal
#

most of the monstrosity's identity is that it's stupid fast. it, uh, kind of doesn't have anything else. most of its optionals are either 'fuck over a guy who couldn't stop it from getting to melee(which it is very hard to stop from doing)', or 'a way to make it even easier to get into melee'

#

and acid spit. it also has acid spit

twin reef
#

Acid spit is the best.

bold crystal
#

functionally speaking it's basically a bad assassin.

ancient forge
#

Last fight I ran was monstrosities (from wallflower), honestly I feel like the ideal "fix" for them is to just make more monstrosity classes that actually fill out some combat roles and have distinct identities. Templates can be weird because some npc classes have heat management loops. But at that point you are homebrewing entirely new things, not modifiying a base game thing

indigo oasis
#

Monstrosity I like in theory because it does some funky stuff in its mutations, and in a mecha game having a single class catch a wide variety of NPC types (like MBT) is handy.

In practice I can see how it leaves a lot to be desired

bold crystal
ancient forge
#

I ended up calling the claws "bites" a lot less out of any deliberate thought and more just habitually describing the creature how the art looks, but yeah it's primarily things that'll mix it up in melee

rose hamlet
#

Yeah monstrosities for

  • brute
  • soldier
  • skirmisher
  • lurker
  • artillery
  • controller

Would be good

bold crystal
#

you can't even make a godzilla with it by default.

rose hamlet
#

Or even “brute” “strategist” and “minion”

#

And dedicated Kaiju

indigo oasis
#

I’d also be in favor of doing a “Anomaly mixed with MBT” approach of just giving it a sheer massive amount of customizability options

rose hamlet
bold crystal
#

yeah, imo it should be something with that sort of... degree of variety

rose hamlet
#

“Tricky monster” vs “smashy monster”

indigo oasis
#

Ultimately Monstrosity is meant to be a niche Lancer thing rather than a focus of Lancer so the mechanics should, imo, be “peripheral” if that makes sense

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

Ding ding ding we have a winner

indigo oasis
#

Anyway regardless of the opinions of “rebaking monstrosity” I still like my idea for a Veteran trait :P

bold crystal
#

the other issue slash niche is just 'biological enemies make anyone relying on dedicated tech effects very sad' which is sort of a niche(find and eat horus mechs) but I think flat immunity is a lot less interesting than effects that actually interact with and resist tech options

young turtle
#

Honestly I think this is a fine dynamic for Monstrosities

#

I think the problem is that Monstrosities also often kinda want you to use a bunch of them, thematically

#

Which is where the problem tends to come from

#

Because it goes from "this one npc is immune to tech actions" to "this whole opfor is immune to it"

ancient forge
#

yeah. And even if you vary their monstrosity optionals, every enemy turn feels very similar

bold crystal
#

that is also very true, and why the lack of variety comes up. because if your opfor is all monstrosities it's basically just 'put six ronins on the battlefield'

twin reef
#

There's a biological defender in Liminal Space called the Megafauna.

viral wadi
#

NPC gimmicks that say "sucks to be you, should've focused on damage" tend to be awkward at best.

#

(Given that damage already is a hammer that solves the vast majority of problems.)

rose hamlet
#

I will say that Bios encourage controllers to invest in non-tech control options, like Black Witch and Iskander

#

It’s still rough but I think that folks don’t give the non-hacker controllers enough credit sometimes

indigo oasis
#

The clash between "Bio mechanically is fine if you have 1 or 2 per sitrep" vs "Bio thematically makes GMs make pure Bio Opfors"

brisk flax
#

I think if anyone made a mech NPC that was just flat out immune to tech anything except lock on, people would give it the side-eye and rightly so

#

As noted, one of the fundamental problems with monstrosities is nobody is looking to run 5 mechs and their one pet megafauna, they want to do the Tyrannid swarm or they want to do Pacific Rim, i.e. all monstrosities all the time

#

The more fundamental reason this is a problem is that monstrosities are immune to a major axis of player output

#

You can't really square the monstrosity without first addressing that tech immunity just isn't a very fun or engaging mechanic, and then if you say "well maybe monstrosities should just be affected by tech using magic space rays" then you might as well just reskin mech NPCs and say the Berserker is a giant alien crab monster

#

I'll be honest, even as a bespoke one per fight NPC, I would be dubious of the "tech immunity" dynamic in action as a fun challenge, because it really kind of isnt

#

I suppose it goes against the spirit of this thread, and I don't want this to discourage anyone ELSE from tinkering with it, but I suppose my personal monstrosity rebake is "I wouldnt put this in lancer actually"

#

At most I'd look at incorporating it along the lines of a template, but if "tech immunity or bust" is a sticking point for people then this loops back to "I wouldn't"

rose hamlet
#

Tbh at this point I’m thinking of ways to add “tech resistance/immunity” in an interesting puzzle way rather than an outright shutdown

#

For example: “immune to tech attacks unless lock on is consumed”

Don’t nitpick that one too hard, it’s just a spitball

brisk flax
#

Yeah I like that stuff, like suldan has an NPC that can become intangible which is the ultimate "no sell," EXCEPT you can tech attack it still and overheating it breaks the effect

#

Or the MBT which has super directional armor and then like a dozen ways to work around it

indigo oasis
# brisk flax I'll be honest, even as a bespoke one per fight NPC, I would be dubious of the "...

Technically speaking Squads have the same mechanic, and while Squad Kits addresses Squad’s other issues it only slightly touches the tech issue, and even still it gets lauded as the one thing that makes Squads worth running.

Maybe it’s observation bias, but imo it indicates that the issue isn’t really the tech stuff, but the base NPC not really being very engaging when it comes to Lancer’s aesthetic + mechanics

brisk flax
#

I actually don't like it on squads either and I think it's notable that an extremely common squad hack is "make them subalterns and ditch the immunity"

viral wadi
brisk flax
#

The reason you run squads imo is they're a point control tar pit

#

Frankly, squads SHOULD be hackable, the lancer infantry guy is using powered hardsuits, integrated computer systems, and other tech stuff

#

"How can I hack this sci fi infantry unit?" is not a question I would think to ask

indigo oasis
#

I don’t personally agree but I think that’s fair. IMO Squads already have a bunch of control resistance + the inability to gain structure while being a little frail, so I think the tech immunity is at the very least thoughtfully integrated into Squads, unlike monstrosities. However I do see how flavor wise not being able to hack the squad hardsuits or what have you is quite thematically dissonant, even if I think the tech immunity earns its place on the squad mechanically.

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

Lancer bending the lore to allow everything to fight to be hackable is probably a good design assumption to have, that is fair

#

I just personally think Squad at the very least earns the mantle of "immune to tech actions" since as a tar pit NPC it's already immune to a good portion of control effects- it could be argued that kinda "control immunity" is negative for the game too tho

ancient forge
#

Squad, unlike monstrosity, does seem to be used more sparingly in opfors it’s included in, so it could just be that the problem gets less exposure with them

#

Fighting all worms, there’s no alternate target to use your tech specialization on unless the gm adds something special to the encounter. Fighting some mechs and a squad, you can just leave the squad to less tech focused allies while you hack the enemy mechs

#

Not so much a difference in the mechanics of either work and more a result of how people engage with the thematics of them

indigo oasis
#

Ya know if you wanted to make that Salt the Earth combat even more toxic you could put a Rainmaker w/ Atlas Missiles in it

plucky robin
#

I know I've got a template for 'make things biological' that steps down tech actions.

# 
Neural Feedback
Trait
Despite being Biological, the Extra-terrestrial can be targeted by tech actions. When affected by a tech action that would not normally affect a biological character, the Extra-terrestrial is Slowed and Impaired until the end of its next turn instead of non-heat effects.

'All tech actions are Fragment Signal against me'.

#

Fragment Signal is still a great invade, after all.

tame obsidian
tame obsidian
plucky robin
twin reef
#

Hmm. I know you can't normally give Conscripts templates, but if you gave them a Veteran trait, what would it be?

tame obsidian
#

The untrained soldiers being 'veterans' is a funny concept

bold crystal
tame obsidian
bold crystal
twin reef
tame obsidian
#

Falls back into the same logic as determining an NPCs 'role' based on the tag, like Artillery or Defender.
What is the 'Biological' tag representing? Immunity to tech actions? lmao

tame obsidian
#

Returning enemies is a great story beat, but do they 'need' to be conscripts?

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
young laurel
#

Do the Fire Emblem Route.

Conscript Survives Combat?
Promotes to a different Class

tame obsidian
#

2 dudes shlorpfing into one

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Ooh fun

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Either I'm blind or that Hammer and Tongs combat is new

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

that's because I added it like yesterday

indigo oasis
#

Okay so I'm not blind- very cool!

brisk flax
#

I'm currently debating whether I should spin off a new thread devoted solely to the OPFOR files, if I do I'll probably wait until I've gotten some more down and in a solid place first

smoky bluff
#

What about a "oops, all invisible" sitrep

#

A lot of invisible npcs in the sitrep also have teleporting powers, i just realise

#

Operator, Mirage and Specter

young laurel
brisk flax
indigo oasis
# brisk flax I'm currently debating whether I should spin off a new thread devoted solely to ...

I’m of the opinion that you should keep it here on the basis that there are distinct differences between certain NPCs and how to budget them with the rebake vs the core versions. Ronin and Operator for one, but also NPCs like Barricade and Seeder become less chaotic, the optionals differ in key ways, Rainmaker and to a lesser degree Assault + Demolisher are fairly different on a functional level, and Specter has an invis counter that- for that all invis OpFor- is quite significant in leveling party preparedness vs OpFor gimmick

#

Not to mention the reliable damage shuffle around

#

With the rebake, you can make an OpFor w/ 3 Ronin operate somewhat equivalently at all tiers, but with CRB you absolutely cannot have that

#

Ultimately There are just things you can do with the OpFor files when using the rebake that you simply can’t if you’re using CRB NPCs

rose hamlet
#

I think that having opfor files that key off the rebakes are a good addition to the rebake project in general tbh

#

That said: Not my project

indigo oasis
#

There are absolutely merits to making the OpFor files general resource as opposed to just an add on to the rebake, so yeah agreed on the “not my project” thing

dapper sierra
#

could fit better in like
#gm-corner potentially, even

indigo oasis
#

Well since it’s more of a project than like. Vague musings. I think it definitely would warrant its own thread if that direction was desired, or even just stay here since it is very pertinent imo (eg. Acting as examples on how to use Rebake NPCs, something there aren’t really existing modules on)

dapper sierra
#

by the by, previous monstrosity talk inspired us, and is spiraling out of control into its own project, wish us luck

minor hound
#

On the biological tag discussion, I just took away the tech immunity, but kept the heat -> electric mechanic.

I'm running nonstandard lore anyways so my reasoning is that hacking in this world is as much magical as much as it is technical. If you can remotely hack a computer, you can probably hack a brain, though I might make it 1-2 difficulty at some point.

On one hand, monstrosities are more usable. On the other hand, don't get out of your mech when something with a nasty tech action can see you.

vale crescent
#

Ran two rebake striders in a sitrep, was a defennd the objective, with a QA to capture points. Enemies trying to take them, Ran with PPG stuff but otherwise they went fine... I had an Ultra support from PPG which was meant to do a lot of the NPC party movement similar to how a mirage can (PPG Zealot) but it got locked down, not many other folks of the opfor were speedy enough to make it up so the Striders really shines

#

Where previously, I played them as the swap on swap off style of them as only snipers, rebake striders are fun and I was genuinely debating on their turns whether to swap or nnot, they spent most their game in skirmisher kit running from the players being slippy bastards... Could say skirmishers, they didn't get many attacks off and their grenades weren't too useful ONLY because of an aggressive playstyle and how objective oriented they were

#

I really liked them, weathering came up once as they ran through a shortcut through difficult terrain. Reposition was used when one had LOS on a charged DD288 so SCRAMMED as a reaction, the protocol shimmy two was very useful for a tiny bit more speed. I think it went very well and I'm sad I couldn't have used them as snipers more

brisk flax
#

Sounds like a good run, thanks for the report

vale crescent
#

NP

#

Additionally, the health bump and armour is a very good change

#

Strong ennough they can hold their own but weak enough they'll fold to any dedicated damage

brisk flax
#

yeah honestly Striders out of wallflower are just weirdly fragile

vale crescent
#

There was an aux spammer who would have wiped them faster if they were CRB

#

Yeah exactly that

#

The 16 HP 1 armour at t2 feels like a healthy amount for someonen who can be in the frontline but wants to be further away

#

The blue path is the path the strider made in 2 rounds with access to the protocol shimmy 2 tiles and the reaction run away

image.png
#

Ending in the middle of the soft cover of the smoke grenade they dropped on themself

brisk flax
#

Hell yeah, look at'em go

rose hamlet
#

They leaned into the objective play well yeah haha

brisk flax
#

I think right now the thing about the Strider I'm most questioning on (as in, I have no idea if it's good, bad, or indifferent) is the Survival Knife

#

It feels like most people who've been using it have had positive experiences, I'm willing to say it sounds like it's in a solid-ish place, but that particular optional is one I haven't had a whole lot of feedback on

smoky bluff
#

The survival knife is seems to be an optional choice that depends on the playstyle the GM takes for the strider. With how flexible the rebake strider is. (I usually use it as a long ranger marksman that can engage in quick burst of speed with skrimisher kit when needed) its not strange as to why it doesn't really see much use. As the range of the knife is as long as the skirmisher kit weapon. I remember the last time i used the strider, my players really didn't engage it so i didn't need to use skirmisher kit

#

Maybe when i get back to it, i should try the strider with a more close range hit and run playstyle with a way to attack at long ranges.

indigo oasis
#

I’m personally not accustomed to the Strider’s new added defenses so I’ve been keeping it as artillery and using Skirmisher Kit as a way to get between sniper posts. Probably something to take note of and try to do the inverse of (stay primarily in Skirmisher kit and swap to Marksman when the opportunity arises)

vale crescent
#

In my mind I had "yeah, stick to marksman"... But then I just didn't

#

Shmovement good

indigo oasis
#

The versatility is probably most useful in sitreps like Gauntlet or Control where the Strider is basically waiting to be approached before defending a point

#

Unsure how exactly the knife plays into things now that I’m dwelling on it however. Yes the Strider gains barrage potential and it combos well with the Carbine Knockback, but the grenades + swap bonuses sorta serve that role well enough. I’m wondering if I should swap Spare Parts on my Playtest Striders w/ Survival Knife to see

#

(I just love me spare parts but it was more flavorful when Vultures were on the opfor, which they no longer are)

smoky bluff
#

The strider's skirmisher kit having little to no defensive tools other than smoke grenades means that its very risky to have the strider approach the players to make use of their explosive carbine and survival knife. The players have to be the one to be close enough that its worth moving the skirmisher back and forth with hit and run.

#

If i am playing the strider to be more skirmisher than marksman, i'll probably spend his turns locking on in skirmisher kit to as many players as i can, before switching to marksmen kit. Using the explosive carbine, reposition reaction, swap kit bonus for skirmisher and knife when my players give chase.

indigo oasis
vale crescent
#

Knife woulda been pretty good in the combat I was in

#

cos of slow

#

How useful? IDK cos I didn't have it

indigo oasis
#

The slow is the bigger incentive for sure, because if it’s for damage then it kinda loses the Strider has enough “barrage” options

vale crescent
#

Ok sure... It can barrage, but like... 2/3/4 damage aint much extra for a skirmish > Barrage-

indigo oasis
#

Yeah so the knife is not the typical “extra weapon to barrage with” optional because it kinda sucks for that

vale crescent
#

It's a slowing ranged utility which is just coincidentally a weapon and functions as one

indigo oasis
#

It’s just kinda hard to tell if the weapon a. Has room in the Strider’s action economy, and b. Is strong enough to justify its place there

#

I may as well put it on my playtest striders in that case- it seems to have gotten enough testing to show its core action loop is effective

vale crescent
#

Yet aggain, purely based off vibes but I feel like the knife is a good option mostly for skirmisher kit

#

Then again, it cann't target in range 5 so:

Skirmish throw knife at range 5 -> Swap kit -> Free action carbine from skirmisher kit bonus would be pretty neat

#

Like to me, it feels (purely off vibes) as a "I want to run somewhere and I don't want you to catch up"

rose hamlet
#

Kiting tools fun

smoky bluff
#

The slow would be very useful on the right targets, like atlas, nelson or other high speed mechs

smoky bluff
#

That is if they haven't killed the strider after reaching their location lol

brisk flax
carmine pendant
#

hey quick question on melt

does count as being hit mean "they take damage as if hit" or is it just "count as being hit for the purpose of focus down"

image.png
indigo oasis
#

For the purpose of focus down

#

No damage, I think?

#

… wait now I’m not sure

vale crescent
#

For the purpose of focus down I'm pretty sure

#

It would have the damage in the trait I'm p sure

brisk flax
subtle nacelle
#

Fought against a lurker last night and a specter.

The specter is still very scary but now we have a decent amount of options to counter it, most importantly the QA to disable its invis.

The elite lurker was veeeey fun to fight against. What a puzzle! Im playing an orchis so every one of my turns ended revolving around how best to move the lurker out of its shrouds and into the loving arms or my blackbeard friend. Really cool stuff.

indigo oasis
#

So I was thinking about Kai’s commentary earlier about how Invis OpFors tend to suffer from “the PCs need one system to trivialize them” and while I agree I do think focusing on a core trio of Pathfinder Scout/Mirage, Specter, and a Pyro could hit the notes well while also still being capable beyond just “invisibility.” With any extra units just augmenting the core trio further and not necessarily caring about leaning into Invis (artillery grunts or witches/operators perhaps?)

#

Pyro, technically speaking, is an invis NPC

#

Lightning Reflexes also helps as an “invis but not” if you either wanna give invis NPCs a safety net or make non-invis NPCs on theme

brisk flax
subtle nacelle
#

yea, we were discussing how corebook wf npcs are really complex but also just not fluid, and how your rebakes were able to keep the complexity but make them significantly more playable

#

I even like the threat of the Spite even when it misses Imprison constantly (just bad luck, no need to change numbers). The spite just existing makes me have to consider my heat management and proximity to it even without actions

brisk flax
#

That's an effect that simply happens

subtle nacelle
#

oop...

rose hamlet
#

Might wanna double check the lcp for a “tech attack” flag haha

brisk flax
#

Yeah, it's a tech ACTION, but it's deterministic

subtle nacelle
#

my gm was using the 1.19.4 lcp which is a bit outdated. I'll double check everything

brisk flax
#

OG Imprison IS a tech attack

#

Or, well

#

It's a save

#

The new version costs a full action and simply infects someone with the virus, because I think one of the Spite's rough spots is that Imprison is a threat that takes a while to feel the squeeze, and so if it whiffs a couple of applications it increasingly feels like a pointless ability to keep trying to use

#

Slow, steady poison is one of those things that if it only lands by round 4 or something, it isn't really going to have the same impact as if you'd applied it at the start of the fight

#

And since Imprison is so central to the Spite's identity, it feels awkward that it can just fail to take hold

#

If a Witch beefs a Predatory Logic or something, like yeah that sucks, but the Witch is full of other tricks

#

But the Spite is basically The Imprison NPC

#

with a sideline of "and Enthrone I guess"

cobalt hull
#

I 100% thought it was a roll, and then when enthrone was destroyed the poor lad had to crawl over to the objective and use fragment signals videogames

subtle nacelle
#

literally, entirely, my fault

brisk flax
# indigo oasis So I was thinking about Kai’s commentary earlier about how Invis OpFors tend to ...

I wanted to touch on this too now that I'm back at my desk: in theory, and broadly, I agree with this assessment in the sense that I think very few NPCs in lancer are DEFINED by "Invisibility," that is mainly just the Specter. If you asked people "what's the Scout's deal?" most of them would not say Invisibility first and foremost, same with the Mirage. Those are NPCs that just happen to have Invisibility as a side note or secondary element

#

That said, even these elements can prove to be frustrating, and I imagine it might only get worse if you stock lots of them together in one place. Someone in lancer general yesterday was bemoaning a fight where the Scout rolled three 6's to recharge Cloaking Field and their party had no tools on hand to disrupt the NPCs huddling on the objective underneath the umbrella. That's maybe a bit of an outlier case, but you can still see the issue, and then imagine if that OPFOR also had a guy who happened to be Invisible by themselves (Dataveil) and someone who could make a can't-believe-it's-not-invisible line (Firebreak) even if they DID overcome that

#

I don't really hate Invisibility the way some people really seem to loathe it, I think it's a neat inclusion in an OPFOR, but one of the problems with Invisibility is that it's not really something you can tactics your way out of

#

Like the MBT is an enemy, for example, where "how do we overcome this guy's thing?" is addressable by gear, but it can also be addressed by things like "well you flank them" or you can ram them to rotate the facing, or you can do X or Y

#

If someone is entrenched in cover, you can push up to where they no longer have that cover, difficulty penalties can be overcome with Lock On and Prone and etc

#

but Invisibility really is, at the end of the day, something you only bypass via gear check. Do you have Reliable weapons? Do you have saves? Do you have anti-invisibility systems?

subtle nacelle
brisk flax
#

Because if you don't, no amount of flanking or good tactics can do anything for this, you're stuck hoping you pass the 50/50 roll

#

and I think that, more than the coinflip itself, is what makes Invisibility so frustrating for people...it's not even the miss chance per se, it's the fact that there's really nothing else you could have done short of "been smart enough to equip the right thing"

indigo oasis
#

I do think the Rebake does make it more accessible to tactics your way out of it when it comes to Specter specifically, and even to or even especially for the NPCs that got invis-likes such as Witch and Strider. But yeah it is harder to tactics out of luck.

I will say when it comes to NPCs that don't have accessible counters to their invis except good luck, that list is mainly just Scout, Specter due to the contested check (still less luck than CRB Specter), and Mirage (the strat of "change targets" does scare the Mirage a little but it doesn't exactly threaten it as desired)

brisk flax
#

this was a big part of why I baked direct engagement of the Invisibility into the Specter

#

The other guys I largely left alone because I don't feel it's as central to them, and for something like Firebreak specifically you CAN flank it

indigo oasis
#

Yeah Firebreak in CRB was not that threatening in my exp so the invis wasn't really an issue for them

brisk flax
#

and the Witch can be dealt with by cooling your reactor or having someone else do the shooting

#

etc

#

there's ways to deal with those things, but there are still some elements in there which you kind of just have to hope someone brought the right tools or that you don't get unlucky

#

like, everyone always goes "GMS assault rifle!" but look man, if the book doesn't say "this weapon is mandatory and you should always have one," then that's not REALLY a "tactical solution," that's a gear tax

indigo oasis
#

It also vibes different than stuff like Resistance because even with resistance you still see a healthbar ticking down. Meanwhile without an invis counter it really is just trying to run out luck and that's not at all tangible

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

If you deployed an entire OpFor with resistance traits that would vibe completely different than an OpFor with Invis Gimmickss

brisk flax
#

it's like a Tech action grenade of sorts

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

like Point-Defense Shield is "position smart," Hunker Down is "1/round, and now it slows," Rebound is "ranged attacks only, 1/round", etc

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

you CAN brute force it with Paracausal or FABI, but you kind of don't HAVE to

indigo oasis
#

I'm not saying this shoudl be done, but it would be neat if Dataveil and Cloaking Field had niche but possible ways of being shut down. Like overheating a Mirage shuts down Dataveil for a bit and Cloaking Field breaks if the Scout moves.

#

ofc Dataveil and Cloaking Field already have counterbalances (if someone else benefits from Dataveil the Mirage is vulnerable, Cloaking Field Immobilizes and is Recharge), so that wouldn't really work

#

But it'd be neat

brisk flax
#

Yeah probably wouldn't be terrible, like if I had felt more strongly about it at the time I might have looked at that

#

Part of it is "Recharge 6" is strictly speaking a drawback, but it's one that's somewhat unpredictable

indigo oasis
#

It's a luck drawback for a luck based ability

brisk flax
#

With Short-Cycle Lance I can look at that and go "yeah this probably deserves a pacer" because that's abundantly blatant, but Cloaking Field didn't strike me as a thing like "yeah this can be a huge problem if it runs rampant"

#

and on the WHOLE, I'm not sure it IS a "problem" per se

#

it's simply that when the unfortunate does happen, it's down to "gear or luck," which can be kind of a bummer

indigo oasis
#

A little bit of swinginess here and there makes the game spicier, it just can't be overpowering

#

Yeah it doesn't matter how tactical you make the game's mechanics, if you involve dice rolls in the action resolution process you need to acknowledge that some people will never roll above a 10 for their whole life and that just sucks

bold crystal
minor hound
subtle nacelle
#

ah yea effectively the same as im coding them now. I guess the lcps dont distinguish between tech attacks and tech actions??

minor hound
#

as far as I can read this and combined with my experience, Witchdice "just knows" how Imprison works, probably hardcoded rule.

minor hound
#

whether or not a tech action calls for a roll of any type is defined by the description of the action.
could lcps be more descriptive by listing involved rolls for actions? probably.

subtle nacelle
#

the reason i mention it is that foundry automatically adds a tech attack macro to any "Tech" feature, which is why my DM thought Imprison was a tech attack

minor hound
#

even for ones that are actually saves?

subtle nacelle
#

for npcs, as far as i can tell, yea. Otherwise it's categorized as a "System" not a "Tech"

#

the language of LCPs is sometimes really incongruent with how we understand the rules

indigo oasis
#

I coulda swore Foundry doesn’t do that anymore

subtle nacelle
#

ah, well, then disclaimer, we're still in v11

indigo oasis
#

Cause I swear I used Imprison in foundry without prompting a tech attack

#

It has however been several months so

cobalt hull
#

clicking the icon prompts for an attack, so thats what i did kittyshrug

#

i also found out i'm out of date but i don't think that changed

subtle nacelle
#

yea, that specific bit hasn't really changed since imprison was written as a Full Action

cobalt hull
#

it probably says it in the description and i just missed it

#

or well, eleonor and i missed it

subtle nacelle
#

I think it's the fact that it doesn't say "make a tech attack against..." which is harder to naturally catch

cobalt hull
#

yeah for sure, if i activate the ability and it tells me to roll that's what i'm going to do as a brainlet unless it specifically says otherwise

rose hamlet
#

But latest stuff (alternative sheets and Lancer for foundry v12 itself) should play nice

brisk flax
#

But yeah, a number of rebake tech things don't have saves or attacks, they Just Happen

#

Sidereal Realignment and Orbital Eye from the Ultra rebake are in a similar boat

#

so however you did those two things, that's also how Imprison would work

#

if Foundry prompts an attack off of that, it's not really anything you can do about it on your end

#

Or hell, the Mirage's Glitch Scanners for that matter

#

Crush Targeting too, etc

cobalt hull
#

absolutely, it was just me being unfamiliar with the spite

brisk flax
#

Several of these things got changes from simply Systems or Traits to Tech Actions for the purpose of greater interactivity: jammed can disable them, so can hack/slash off the Hacker talent, etc

brisk flax
#

this too is valuable feedback

cobalt hull
#

anyways love the changes to lurker, haven't updated to the most recent version but its so much smoother to play

#

updating devouring shard was really funny to see considering the insane damage it did last combat

#

placed 3 shrouds on the objective and began opening fire lol

brisk flax
#

Devouring Shard in the latest update got a damage bump for convoluted but essentially explicable reasons:
1). I initially lowered the damage and removed the AP tag from it when first doing the revision as a tradeoff for greater flexibility in use
2). It was brought up in later testing that the damage of Kinetic Transference, which I had set at 3/4/5 AP, was overperforming in conjunction with everything else, particularly given there's no save against it, it simply happens (the save is for being kidnapped)
3). So I removed AP from the Kinetic Transference effect to make it so armor is more valuable against it as an additional layer of mitigation
4). With this done, I decided to give Devouring Shard its original damage numbers back, BUT still sans the AP

#

Nanite stuff in lancer tends to get a lot of AP/burn for thematically associated reasons, but it's been pointed out that the Wallflower NPCs have a lot of floating AP/paracausal type stuff on average (the Avenger has it on their slug pistol and erupting shrapnel, the lurker has it on devouring shard and can shred people inside shroud zones and has ripper claws with AP, the strider's ranger long rifle can gain paracausal and the mag shotgun has AP, and spite enthrone and insidious prison both deal AP)

#

so I don't feel terrible about paring back on that a touch

cobalt hull
#

ah didn't notice you removed the AP, nothing would have changed last combat damage wise then lol. but i like the choice because against some frames it would be better to just never use the whip if it can't move them and just constantly shard them

brisk flax
#

the latest update has it at 4/5/6 AP and Kinetic Transference at 3/4/5 no AP

cobalt hull
#

OH i misunderstood. cool, i can keep blasting them :)

brisk flax
#

This is something I'm looking at folding into 1.5 for reasons you've outlined: it makes dragging someone into the shroud and shredding them more of an appealing element of play if you can't just pepper them with AP damage

cobalt hull
#

its already not too hard to do assuming you're not fighting a drake or barb, and they should be rewarded by being safe from the pull

brisk flax
#

notably, if someone is INSIDE a shroud zone and therefore shredded, you can still use Devouring Shard on them from the interior of the zone (because "adjacent" has long since been clarified as counting the inside of spaces as well)

#

and at that point it'll bypass their armor etc

#

so this overall gives the Lurker more of a shape of "not as dangerous if you're on the outside of the zone, much more dangerous if you end up inside," which I think feels better than floating AP damage because of nanites

cobalt hull
#

mhm, and if you don't have claws it can be a pseudo barrage

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

it serves essentially as an, imo, more justifiable ripper claws in that regard

cobalt hull
#

didn't mess with the claws yet, but i'll probably be doing that later in wallflower and it could be a whole different beast by then

brisk flax
#

the wallflower lurker is very awkward but also can output really dumb amounts of damage very easily

#

lots of NPCs have optional weapons that feel like headscratchers, but ripper claws are really up there in terms of "why does this exist?"

cobalt hull
#

there's very little reason to not use them other than you're feeling generous

brisk flax
#

yeah, the "drawback" is basically that both the whip and claws are inaccurate and don't scale (both are set at +0 to hit across all tiers), though the whip gains accuracy against targets in the shroud zone

#

still, what this means is with some nominal setup, lock ons, a prone, whatever, that a lurker can do a barrage against someone at Tier 1 that pulls them into the shroud zone where they immediately become Shredded, take 8 damage, then get followed up with the claws for an additional 10

#

this is more than a Demolisher can output within a similar threat radius by nearly double, and it technically isn't even as inaccurate as a Demolisher whose to-hit ranges from +0 to -5 with an average of -2.5

cobalt hull
#

i forget the changes to the claws, i need to take a look

#

i remember base it was absurd

brisk flax
#

the change to the claws is "get the fuck out of here"

#

the rebake lurker lost several of its original optionals and had one moved into its base kit

cobalt hull
#

the whip with overwatch was mad annoying in a good way, it practically forces them to disengage or waste their movement and a boost and eat the damage

brisk flax
#

consume shroud and ripper claws no longer exist and have been replaced by Kinetic Transference and Umbral Clone, while Defensive Shroud got moved baseline and opened up room for Absolute Darkness

cobalt hull
#

aaaaaahhhh i see, i was wondering what you could even do with ripper claws other than change it completely xD

brisk flax
#

I salvaged the "deals double damage in shroud zones" mechanic for the whip, which now has a much lower damage baseline (the OG lurker's whip is just 8/10/12 damage period)

cobalt hull
#

i'm running an avenger next week or maybe the week after, will keep you informed on that as well o7

#

though tbh the avenger was already pretty good imo, it just now has some sauce

brisk flax
#

and I also changed how the timing on it works, whereas before it was possible to attack someone, hit them, drag them, and THEN have damage apply (which would be while they're shredded), the way it works now is you only get the double damage if you make the attack WHILE someone is in the zone

#

so what this basically means is the initial attack on someone will probably be at lower damage, looking to drag them into the zone

#

then FURTHER attacks against that person are empowered, including things like overwatch

cobalt hull
#

yeah i don't think i got a single attack in while someone was in the shroud, but i was facing an orchis that kept yeeting me

#

which good on her part tbh, seems like a fun way to engage with an 'invisible' unit

brisk flax
#

this does make the lurker much more of a "setup" striker than something that's more straightforward about it, it isn't just big damage on demand, but I'm okay with that because the lurker gets a good amount of defensive capability

#

and you can also use other allied units to push people into shroud zones as a setup

#

which sort of loops back to one of the rebake's broad foundational points which is that NPCs should have to cooperate

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

sure

#

I'll always take additional feedback even if it's "the same thing, different day"

#

that's useful stuff

#

I think, as I mentioned, I'm happy to move the Lurker further from having AP and putting that more on the shroud zone

indigo oasis
#

Ye I’m hoping it’ll be a good compare/contrast… Devouring Shard is tempting me however but I am staying my hand because that’s just too many things

#

Tho I do wonder how Shard + Seeded Shadows combos together as an opener

#

Or just Seeded Shadows in general- haven’t seen much of it but it looks fun (and I will be testing it)

brisk flax
#

Probably decently, seeded shadows has deployment restrictions and devouring shard is still basically only on one zone of your choice per use, but it does create a lot of map coverage you can work through

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

yeah but nexus stuff isn't necessarily "nanite" stuff

indigo oasis
#

Also true

brisk flax
#

the things that are more explicitly that are the Annihilation Nexus and the Swarm/Hive Nanites which deal burn

#

but the balor's own traits also don't deal AP, so it's not a HARD set rule either

indigo oasis
mighty granite
rose hamlet
#

It’s not necessary to do that

#

If there’s a foundry limitation, it should be reported to lancer for foundry

#

This same issue will apply to official lancer NPC data, which does not have a notice

mighty granite
#

For comp con

rose hamlet
#

The argument is that once it gets fixed, it’ll be unnecessary and have to be revised

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

it's like, people put reminders about efficient core bonuses in the text for comp/con lcps because comp/con doesn't have an Efficient Tag to utilize, but that's a comp/con problem and should (no shade on beef, just speaking broadly) be a thing fixed on that end

mighty granite
#

Maybe

#

How long would that be, though— aren’t they putting all their effort into 3.0 or something?

rose hamlet
#

Foundry is not compcon, and will be fixed separately as a result

#

On latest version of Lancer for Foundry v12.343, techs that aren’t tech attacks already work properly without prompting for an attack

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

It's just truly unnecessary

indigo oasis
mighty granite
#

I never figured this out… other then maybe 1 guess
Why is earthshatter a thrown weapon?

#

My only guess is like so it wouldn’t get difficulty in melee

#

Uhh

#

Which seems a equally messy way to do it

vale crescent
#

Throw a rock at someone

brisk flax
brisk flax
mighty granite
#

see, me personally, that feels.. ranged attack to me, i guess. .. probably depends on person to person

mighty granite
#

its similar either way, you have to add text saying something about engagement or throwing either way

brisk flax
#

I mean, mechanically what differentiates a thrown attack from a ranged attack is "do I want this to be tagged as Ranged or Melee"

#

that has mechanical difference

mighty granite
brisk flax
#

The Demolisher is a melee unit, and I felt like keeping it strictly melee because that way it's not a tossup each time it does something "wait, what effects do or don't work against this again?"

mighty granite
#

ah neat

brisk flax
#

Can I parry this or not? Does Gunslinger 2 work against it? Does the Black Witch's core power do anything to it or not? etc

#

I don't think a strict division is always necessary, assaults have a gun and a knife, so do sentinels, but earthshatter is also fairly abstract in terms of "what is this?"

#

"Combat Knife" is what it says on the tin

#

nobody's going to get that mixed up with a Heavy Assault Rifle

mighty granite
#

could have gone a third path and have it be vaguely similar to zhengs rock throw

#

go my hull save

#

probably even a fourth way somehiw

brisk flax
#

Lancer does "melee attack at a distance" in one of two ways:
1). high threat, which then means the weapon can be used for overwatch, which I don't want for this, and also Threat 5 is simply ungainly and doesn't exist anywhere in the material as written
2). the Thrown tag

#

the closest you get to 1). is the tokugawa stacking it via core/external batteries

mighty granite
#

would evil kai tave make it a ranged attack

brisk flax
#

like you probably COULD and it wouldn't substantially break anything, I just didn't see a real compelling reason not to just go with making it thrown

mighty granite
#

no wait evil kai tave would make it threat 5

#

anyway interesting thanks

vale crescent
#

It makes sense to smack a nearby rock golf style at someone to also work in melee somewhat... so why not have a melee attack that abides by cover

#

Does it make sense that the demolisher picks the rock up and pelts it at someone then has to go pick up the terrain pelterer? No not really... But fixing that would be too wordy for essentially a secondary backup weapon of the big hammer guys role... Where their main thing is their defense and their other weapon

brisk flax
#

This weapon does not need to be retrieved between uses.

vale crescent
#

Oh

#

I'm just silly annd miss that bit

#

I think I've just been too distracted by the create terrain and destroy terrain nearby that I've somehow missed that part every time

mighty granite
#

Real ones make throwing a rock at someone a tech attack😤 😤 😤

bold crystal
vestal jackal
twin reef
#

From the beginning of human history, the development of warfare has been about throwing bigger and better rocks at the enemy.

zenith sapphire
brisk flax
#

Eugh

zenith sapphire
#

wait a sec,
lead wall on vet breacher specify that when breacher miss all attacks with shotgun on a target it make another attack
breach and clear on breacher makes it use shotgun attack any character in their path with the Dual Shotguns but only make a single attack against each character this way (rather than making two attacks at once).
It's still an attack with a shotgun.

So a vet+breach and clear breacher would...
on breach ram, shoot everyone in the path with the shotgun, if missed, shoot them again because leadwall?

Am I interpreting it right?

indigo oasis
#

I think since it’s attacking multiple characters with a single action it’ll only get an extra attack if it misses all characters hit with the Ram

brisk flax
#

Leadwall is "any time the breacher would make X attacks with the Dual Shotguns, if they miss all X attacks, they get 1 single consolation attack as a followup"

#

so make 2 attacks with a skirmish and miss both? 1 followup attack

#

make 5 Breach and Clear attacks and miss all 5? 1 followup attack

indigo oasis
#

Make a Painmaker volley and miss all 4 attacks? Follow up attack. Miss only 3 attacks? Then no extra attack allowed

#

On that topic is this interaction correct?

a Breach and Clear + Painmaker Breacher w/ Limitless activates Painmaker one turn. Then their next turn around, they use Breach Ram and choose to make the Breach and Clear attacks, then Overcharge to Skirmish with the Dual Shotguns.

Painmaker applies to the next Dual Shotgun attack made on the Breacher’s next turn, and may allow them to make 4 attacks instead of 2. Breach and Clear allows the Breacher to optionally make Shotgun attacks as part of breach Ram, but they must only be singular attacks per target instead of the 2.

The Breach and Clear restriction would override the effect of Painmaker while also ending the effect of Painmaker since it only applies to the next Dual Shotgun attack, making it so that the Overcharge only makes 2 attacks.

Would that be an accurate flow of events?

#

On a more productive note, would it be possible to pin the Conscript and Gladiator rebake docs somewhere at any point? They’re not a focus but it’d be nice to have them easy to locate for folks who use Suldan NPCs

brisk flax
#

w/breach and clear?

indigo oasis
#

Pretty much actually- my assumption is Painmaker gets consumed but has no effect

brisk flax
#

Well, from first principles it's going to be hard to do so, because Painmaker causes the Breacher to be Slowed until the end of their next turn

#

so on their next turn, they can't use Breach Ram in the first place

indigo oasis
#

… I’m blind then my b

brisk flax
#

this means this is an interaction I thankfully do not have to consider

rose hamlet
#

Love it when that happens

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

Pretty sure as a self-applied condition it therefore can’t be cleared (and something like being able to suppress RPV’s impair is more a trait of RPV than a trait of immunity/condition clear)

brisk flax
#

Yeah my default is "if you did this to yourself, you don't get to have someone clear it"

bold crystal
#

that is a good base assumption, it's just not stated anywhere.

errant needle
#

I'd like to note that the Ultra Railgun has yet again provided value in the "weapon choice as characterization" for an Ultra. Nothing quite establishes a character as when he's willing to include one of his own dudes in the line if it lets him set it up to hit four PCs at the same time.

#

I was actively disappointed that one base Ronin didn't succeed on his Rebound though.

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

So a minor (very minor) note, while discussing some rebake implementation with olive, she raised a question regarding Strike and Fade that prompted me to take a look at things, and I think I'm going to issue an actual piece of not-just-typo errata, ideally my one and only: the defense bonus on Strike and Fade currently lasts until the end of the Operator's next turn, it will instead last until the START of its next turn

#

The defense bonus lasting EoNT doesn't TRULY matter as much, but it raises some questions about "hey is this meant to carry over and can I stack it with itself so I have +2 defense on my turn" and while that is a very niche sort of thing to have to consider, I think it's probably clearer and more straightforward to just say that the Operator is a blank slate once its turn starts, neither striking nor fading until it commits to a gameplan

#

olive's going to proceed with that implementation in Lancer Tactics, and for myself I'm going to have Mina update the document (and eleanor update the lcp) when the Wallflower rebakes get finalized and ready for upload, so I'll only have to make one real update

#

As much as I dislike errata in the sense of "I do not want this to become an ongoing legacy project" and/or "I do not like opening the gates to people thinking X also needs changing," this feels like as minor a change as it's possible to make, and it's less for power adjustment and more for clarity and ease of handling

indigo oasis
#

Considering the operator is a teleporter anyway this changes nothing for me lol

#

(Still do it but like)

#

(this is very reasonable)

brisk flax
#

Like it's SUCH a niche possible outcome but I can see someone trying to squeeze +2 difficulty out to standard move boost past some vanguard guy

cunning marlin
#

I can see how a player would feel that is bullshit to deal with.

brisk flax
#

and in terms of implementation, it's easier for olive to deal with this way

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

Also let's talk wallflower rebakes: these are getting real close to feeling done

#

The doors are open for more feedback, but so far nobody's bringing me anything like "yeah this broke the game and it sucks shit and I hate you" so I'm at the point where I'm feeling like I might be closing in on this

#

if anybody wants to give me more feedback on these guys, I don't have an ETA on when I plan to hand things off to mina (I am actually moving apartments in five days, I hate my life and wish I was dead) but I would consider the window to be closing

mighty granite
#

maybe i need to accelerate the deployment of billy tomas the avenger

indigo oasis
#

Hoping I can test the Lurkers and Striders within the next month

smoky bluff
cobalt hull
#

but other than that between strider, spite, and lurker, i think everything is pretty neatly done and flows really well with the gameplay

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

It's on the docket for 1.5, currently it's one of only two changes

# 
-Avenger Erupting Shrapnel added clarification to forced movement, noting that it takes place "after rolling."
-Lurker Devouring Shard no longer has AP```
rose hamlet
#

Noted, I’ll try to get some last minute testing in then, and wishing you the best with your move, that shit sucks

indigo oasis
#

Btw I’m very grateful to have participated in the playtest cycles for this project as a whole, mainly because it taught me how to provide productive playtest feedback and that has served me surprisingly well beyond just Lancer stuff lol

mighty granite
#

for a holdout i was debating a comp of..

#

spectres with lure

#

seeders, crusaders, operators, some striker grunts

#

maybe hornets?

#

im not sure about this comp

sour mist
#

hey, for the rebake ultra, with their ability to clear a condition in exchange for a debuff... if they're already Impaired, can they choose to become Impaired to clear a different condition?

subtle nacelle
#

yes! it just sets a new end timer for when it clears

sour mist
#

okay, so if somebody invades an Ultra, gives it Impaired and Slowed, on the Ultra's turn it can turn that Slowed into a second, non-stacking, instance of Impaired

#

that's how I've been running it, but wanted to check I hadn't messed up

brisk flax
#

Yeah the design notes even go into this

sour mist
#

ah, my bad, I should re-read those

#

thank you for the responses

brisk flax
#

It doesn't touch on the Fragment Signal thing specifically but, like, an Ultra RPV who's always Impaired can just negate conditions without really any cost in that way

#

But yeah, conditions don't stack, and you can choose to become impaired while impaired and it just doesn't do anything

indigo oasis
#

Impair is still pretty devastating after all

#

Particularly after the rebake cut the floating accuracy down to size (Cataphract excluded, which is honestly kinda interesting gameplay wise since in a sense it has difficulty resistance in exchange for baseline to-hit modifiers)

sour mist
#

my party are fighting a Monstrocity, which has accuracy on its Claws

#

so... similar situation to the cataphract

inland zephyr
#

Been chewing on the wallflower rebake for a bit and really like it so far! I found Edict's wording to be a little clunky, so I thought I'd give a shot at rewording and clarifying without much affecting its functionality:

Edict
Trait, Free Action, 1/turn

Once per turn as a free action, the Spite may choose an Edict from the following list to inflict upon the target of Imprison. The Edict lasts until the end of the targeted character's next turn and they know which Edict is affecting them. The character must abide by the chosen Edict or they take 5/6/7 AP energy damage. This damage cannot be prevented or reduced in any way.

  • [KNEEL]: At the end of the character's next turn, they must be Prone; they may drop Prone during their turn as a free action.
  • [EXPOSE]: At the end of the character's next turn, they must not be adjacent to another character or piece of terrain Size 1 or greater.
  • [EMBRACE]: At the end of the character's next turn, they must not have attacked any character other than the Spite.

The Edict is immediately cleared if Imprison is removed from the character, and characters can only be affected by one Edict at a time; if they are already affected by one, the Spite chooses which one takes precedence.

--
(Inspired by the wording of vanilla Sniper's Mark, Lay Mines, Skirmisher, and the additional systems that affect a Priest's Investiture)

#

Using a keyword command for the edict was particularly inspired by Sniper's Selective Loader, I think it's a great way to have a little bit of flair for the ability

brisk flax
#

Yeah maybe I'll add some names to those

inland zephyr
#

I think having Edict be a 1/turn free action instead of a protocol that also happens to activate with imprison is nice, as it's less wordy but should accomplish the same intended functionality

brisk flax
#

That I'm not sure I'll be changing as much, as fundamentally I think floating free actions are a bit weird sometimes

#

Very few NPC things are just "a Free Action" in and of themselves

#

It's not necessarily a hard or fast rule, nothing forbids its implementation, but given the way that Edict works, I think it's more likely to be something that GMs find "signposted" for them as a protocol rather than a detached free action

inland zephyr
#

For me personally, having it worded as a free action helps me understand its intended use more. Having it worded as a protocol+extra tripped me up and had me going "so I need to remember to use this at the beginning of the turn, but wait maybe I don't?" and I needed to re-read it to grasp it

brisk flax
#

Well I mean you do, that's how protocols work

#

You also get one for free by using Imprison

#

that sets the ball rolling

inland zephyr
#

Ah you intended that adjusting an ongoing Imprison must happen at the beginning of the Spite's turn

brisk flax
#

Yeah, you get a free Edict whenever you use Imprison because that way it hits the ground running immediately, otherwise it would make both setting it up and also perhaps more importantly it would make switching Imprison targets feel too punitive. A floating free action would serve the same purpose mechanically, but I guarantee from practical experience that I would be trading any sort of confusion over "how does this protocol + freebie work" with "oh shoot I forgot to use Edict"

#

Being a protocol makes it stick out mechanically, even visually going off the layout's color-coding, and it means the Spite has to lay the Edict down at the start of their turn before they start fucking around with anything else

inland zephyr
#

Kind of makes me wish Imprison could just say "Hey this also causes Edict" in its text, but that would be its own awkward situation of two features being dually linked to each other

brisk flax
#

I'd be more willing to do that if Edict came first in the listing, but it wouldn't read as well if it did

inland zephyr
#

Perhaps something like this?

Edict
Trait, Protocol
As a protocol or when the Spite uses Imprison, they may choose an Edict from the following list to inflict upon the target of Imprison

twin reef
#

I think it could be an eot free action.

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

Oh okay so mechanically the same just abbreviated gotcha

brisk flax
#

I think I'm probably not going to change the wording much, sorry

#

It's not something I'm overly concerned with and I prefer how it's handled presently

inland zephyr
#

Yeah I understand, it just helps my brain to have the timing of it listed right at the beginning instead of halfway through the first paragraph and I thought I'd offer my input if it helps other peoples' brains too

rose hamlet
#

Aight I ran more Spites tonight, will compile thoughts in a few minutes

mighty granite
#

since free actions dont follow the duplicate action restriction can uh

#

could you go prone to the snipers mark multiple times in a turn

#

actually let me ask this elsewhere idk why i asked this here

bold crystal
vale crescent
#

Go prone whilst prone so that the sniper can't shoot you twice

#

Wait, go prone and get up so space born you shimmy 3 tiles then go prone again

#

Barbarossa speed strats

bold crystal
#

it is exactly meaningful to the barbarossa, which has 2 speed and, with spaceborn 2, could go prone then stand up for 2 spaces of unreactable movement.

vale crescent
#

TACTICAL ROLL

mighty granite
#

mostly i was wondering if spaceborn 2 would give infinite movement

bold crystal
#

you only get one standard move.

mighty granite
#

ah wait im dumb yeh

rose hamlet
#

Okay so, Spite:

  • Ran untemplated Spites with Feedback Shield and 3 Speed (sorry, this is just my preference). Fielded 3 over the course of a 5 round + 1 turn escort; 2 were active at once for several rounds (the first one died "instantly" due to Sunzi Metafold Carver + Vlad Combat Drill shenanigans)
  • There was a Kidd with PEBCAC, so I was incentivized to use Enthrone + Feedback Shield more than Imprison due to their ability to peel Imprison off
  • Question for clarity: Is it intended for Enthrone to not end when the Enthroned ally dies? Right now it only ends if the Spite uses it again, ends it as a quick action, or is destroyed. I can understand if it's desirable for the Spite to "eat shit" if its Enthroned ally dies, but I was unclear if that was the desired effect.
  • Players felt that Imprison + Edict were very wordy. Not saying you should change it, just stating an observation.
    • "Prone Edict" and "Flaw Plus Edict" were read as covering similar ground (thus maybe being slightly redundant) by one player, though I personally don't agree.
  • There was a note that it seemed odd that Imprison doesn't self-immobilize anymore while it still requires the target to become adjacent to end the effect (in one way). Basically, it reads that it may be possible for the Spite to "kite" an Imprisoned target if they never use Enthrone.
    • I don't think this'll matter much in practice due to Spite's normally abysmal speed, and the fact that they'll likely be on the edges of maps so they won't have much space to withdraw towards
    • That said, folks felt that something lighter-weight in actions like Enthrone maybe would be better without the Immobilize, so it could be the "flexible" option for the Spite? IDK, this is spitballing.
  • On my side as GM: I was probably running the Spite's turns backwards, Enthroning first and then Imprisoning. Felt Feedback Shield Enthrone took priority over Imprison's soft control. Though this is probably largely due to the fight's specifics
#

I can provide more specifics upon request

#

Altogether I think Spite's still doing fine, its soft control/defense was neat to use and it's nice that Enthrone can still do stuff even when PEBCAC is in play

#

I understand what you mean now about the timing on Edict's effects, from our discussion a few months ago. Edict saw more immediate use because I remembered to use it upon Imprison this time around

#

that said I definitely felt pressured to use the Spite first in the round, to make sure it could get its stuff off before everyone else went

vale crescent
#

PEBCAC 🔥 🔥🔥🔥🔥

restive fable
#

I tried using a single rebake Spite and it didn't really get to do anything with Imprison due to PEBCAC -- trading the Spite's full action for a Quick was often quite worth it

It's probably more effectual against parties with that if you have several other tech attacks worth worrying about so the players can't PEBCAC all of them at once

rose hamlet
#

Yeah I was hoping that I could fire off multiple Imprisons from several Spites but ultimately gauged that the difficulty from Enthrone and Jammed risk from Feedback Shield were more immediately valuable than the risk of Edict damage

brisk flax
#

Couple notes:

  • I'll check what wallflower'd wording is on Enthrone re: the ally dying, I'm not at my desk but offhand I don't really recall changing anything from that
  • I also disagree that the prone edict is indistinguishable from the Flaw Plus edict, they have different effects and are designed to disrupt different things
  • Re: kiting the Imprison target, if you can't run down a speed 2 NPC, that is distinctly a you problem
#

Not really interested in swapping the self immobilize around, as I'm not tremendously convinced that matters in any fashion

#

Re: PEBCAC there's not really much you can do against that short of silver bullet immunities, PEBCAC also peels off Witch Blind, Chain, Petrify, etc

#

That's just sort of how it goes

rose hamlet
#

Yup, I frankly figured that’s how you’d feel about things, just figured I’d mention them

bold crystal
#

enthrone isn't targeted in wallflower core, it just defends the spite

#

so if it's supposed to stop being immobilized if the target dies in the rebake it might need slight wording adjustments?

#

which could probably just be 'lasts until ... it or the shielded character is destroyed'

brisk flax
#

Gotcha, I'll look at that

brisk flax
#

Speed 2 is bad, but it's bad on purpose here

#

I guess you could do wacky Spite/Mirage keepaway stuff now, but I'm not really convinced that's a death sentence

#

and this rewards the "I want to move 50 spaces a round in my atlas/nelson" players so consider it enrichment

#

I also think, for the record, that "I should pivot into heavy Enthrone usage" is perfectly valid, and I'm glad to hear it worked reasonably well

#

Also before I forget, thanks for the additional feedback

indigo oasis
plain raft
#

Was just informed of all this good work over from the gm corner. And just wanted to say thanks to Kai for spending the time to work on and improve the baddies and their augments. Appreciate the effort and results

brisk flax
#

I'm pretty happy with how it's turned out and I'm glad people are enjoying it, if you use the rebakes let me know how it goes

plain raft
#

Will do

mighty granite
#

Because I’ve been doing a lot of that

indigo oasis
mighty granite
#

I figured I wasn’t supposed to because reasons

twin reef
#

Kai isn't making any more balance updates, but he would still like to hear about it.

cunning marlin
#

I mean I've been running it since before it got officially released and I've had a lot more fun with npcs especially since now they have more cohesive identities and overall feel more fair.

Sentinels the most from this they be eating good.

brisk flax
brisk flax
# 
-Operator Strike and Fade defense bonus now lasts until the start of the Operator's next turn rather than the end of their next turn.

Wallflower Changelog:
-Avenger Erupting Shrapnel added clarification to forced movement, noting that it takes place "after rolling."
-Lurker Devouring Shard no longer has AP
-Spite Edict has been slightly reworded for better clarity, Edict effects now have specific names
-Spite Enthrone has been slightly adjusted to now end if either the Spite or its shielded ally is destroyed ("or if either character is destroyed.")
-Spite Crown of Thorns effect now has a specific name (see above)
-Spite Condemnation wording adjustment, new clause added for clarity ("regardless of whether they are infected by Imprison or not")``` this is what the state of the overall changelog looks like
plain raft
#

ah, so a final line of tweaks to cover any ambiguity in the content or after many, many playtesting cases something might get bumped in value?

brisk flax
#

No, I'm making one (1) very slight adjustment to how Strike and Fade works, primarily for clarity less than functionally changing how it works

plain raft
#

ah

brisk flax
#

This was prompted by olive's work on Lancer Tactics, and is designed to essentially make it easier to track the Operator's floating Strike and Fade bonus

#

I'm not really interested in "live service" updates

#

Wallflower stuff is still in playtesting but that window is closing, I am currently dealing with a truly insane month of bullshit but I would like, in an ideal world, to get stuff sent to Mina sometime in late November

plain raft
#

I see

#

well I wish your month lets up sooner rather than later to give you proper time to rest and recover

inland zephyr
#

I'll also echo the positive sentiment, running the rebake NPCs has been a lot of fun and I adore their improved identities. The new grunts were wonderful to use and the new veteran template is so much easier and interesting to field

#

Looking forward to the next ultra I run, too!

carmine idol
brisk flax
#

I'll see if I get any more feedback and then I'll ping you guys to let you know what's up

simple prawn
#

I had a question for anyone who's gotten to use the enemies rebaked baddies yet

#

do they still feel like normal lancer's enemies? Like from the GM/Player side, is the game feel the same or do the feel more robust or way different

#

I'm sure its kind of an odd question but any insight would be helpful, thanks

smoky bluff
#

Yeah, they're pretty much the same, as this was the rebake's whole goal

#

To change things to be more fair and allow certain strategies to be more viable while preserving what made the npc its namesake

smoky bluff
#

Its close enough in fact, nobody bats an eye if i pull a feature from the base npcs and slap it on the rebake

#

Like the engineer arsenal optional, putting it on the rebake has almost no consequences to the tactics used to fight engineers

simple prawn
#

That was the vibe I was getting, but I wanted to make sure since I haven't been able to test it yet. Thanks for the write up :)

bold crystal
#

the operator is fairly heavily changed, to be fair, but it's basically the only thing in that situation

twin reef
#

I think the Shock and Sealant mines should have the same language as Petrify, where clearing a condition causes the next one to not proc.

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

It turns out that if you have a unit whose claim to fame is being dangerously over juiced that any sort of rebake is going to end up falling towards something like nerfs as a matter of course

#

"should I let this guy keep their 3x7 damage range 20 +2 accuracy gun?" probably not, no

bold crystal
#

the operator's identity was that it was, in basically every way, a better sniper. which really isn't tenable when the sniper exists

brisk flax
#

A lot of other rebake NPCs are really close to the same, by design, but a guy whose identity is "a big hole you dump all the high numbers into" needs something beyond that to justify its existence imo

#

And also yeah

#

All the other artillery NPCs are fairly distinct units with clear gameplay patterns and purposes, then the operator is just "what if a sniper was mobile and didn't have ordnance or loading"

#

The Operator is an example, to me, of vibes-based design