#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 17 of 1

rose hamlet
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For damage yes, that exists and I relied on it (important for consuming lock on vs not consuming it)

But for the Smart + Seeking it’ll require a new weapon altogether at the moment

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Well, at least the Smart

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Seeking can be toggled, smart can’t

vale crescent
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Seeking can be toggled but for all of it, luckily you can just turn off cover for the individual targets... It's just smart as the issue IG :P

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Mostly*

rose hamlet
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Yeah exactly

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A Smart toggle would be a worthwhile feature request on the Foundry system…

vale crescent
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Would it effect anything outside of rainmakers and homebrew?

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Even then it's neat...

rose hamlet
vale crescent
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Oh yeah

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Actually that's a good one. Just ggenerally any reserves with conditional smart

restive fable
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I've just realized I've made homebrew like this and this makes it bothersome to implement because I unwisely tied it to a core bonus

vale crescent
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Dustgrave and OSR I think also has similar reserves???

young laurel
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Just honestly surprised that the Smart option wasn't part of the attack menu.

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From the getgo

halcyon wasp
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Yeah, it's an oversight. I've thought about adding it a few times in the past, but then always forget by the time I get back to working on the project. sadcowboy

brisk flax
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So I'm gearing up to do a 1.1 release, which will have some typos and formatting corrections (like the missing Tier 3 goliath stats etc). This won't be a major change or anything, as I don't plan to make any further changes in terms of how stuff works or etc (that is, this is not going to receive ongoing gameplay-oriented changes unless someone uncovers something truly fucked). With all that said, I have a question for those with any experience doing this sort of thing via itch: is this something worth sending out an email about, do you think?

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I know tom has made updates to cain and maleghast before, but I can't remember if he sent emails out regarding those

viral wadi
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I don't have any experience with it, but personally I know that I'd like to receive a notification for that sort of stuff - because otherwise I'd probably never know, unless I was doing something like following this thread.

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It's really easy to just grab PDFs and then never need to even look at the page again unless you have some file loss or something.

brisk flax
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Yeah, I thought I remembered itch having a default "notify people if this change is significant enough" toggle on the edit menu but it looks like I was wrong

surreal zenith
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oh i forget that other people don't check their Itch feeds regularly

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that's a good point

viral wadi
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Itch is... very unclear with how updates actually notify people. I sure have no idea who actually sees any of my updates, and how.

trail pivot
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i think wheneve ri update something, i get prompted to make a dev-log about it which includes i think an option to notify? I'd have to go back and check

viral wadi
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"What's the difference between any of these options???"

brisk flax
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itch is... very unclear

viral wadi
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Hahaha, fair.

brisk flax
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I'll have to check and see

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worst case is I send an email and hope people don't get annoyed by it

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but yeah idk, it's something I'm thinking about since I know I'll be making an announcement whenever the wallflower NPCs get uploaded, but that's a bit bigger than "I made a half dozen minor formatting changes"

trail pivot
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i didn't even realize that i could use itch to send emails

surreal zenith
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Devlogs show up in followers' feeds

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and i think also the feed of anyone who bought the thing but isn't otherwise following you

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(as well as file updates)

brisk flax
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fun fact, it only works for things you charge money for

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I'm not sure WHY, because even free downloads require an itch account which, to my knowledge, requires an email address

viral wadi
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Can't have those freeloaders wasting their valuable email infrastructure. 😔

brisk flax
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I guess it's meant to be some sort of weird deterrent to using free stuff as a spam platform maybe

surreal zenith
trail pivot
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inchresting

brisk flax
surreal zenith
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yeah just checked in an incognito tab

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You can download free stuff without an account

brisk flax
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okay if that's the case then fine, though it feels a bit like there should be a way to use those to send emails to people who downloaded it who DO have an account

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like cmon man throw me a bone here

brisk flax
young laurel
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The magic number. Now Tom Bloom himself will be summoned from the ether to provide you a single cookie.

modern jackal
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Hey question about the Scourer's Melt: It says it on a success, it counts as being hit by a thermal Lance. Does that include damage or is it just for focus down on the following round?

restive fable
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it's for focus down

modern jackal
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Okay, I read it right then. Had second guessed myself

rose hamlet
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I will usually send updates on things I don’t update often, aka stuff I update no often than once a quarter. Basically: any project that isn’t Prototype Pattern Groups (though that’s also PWYW so my email reach on that is also incredibly small anyway)

indigo oasis
brisk flax
modern jackal
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Gonna really put the fear of God into people by giving it Melt and pulse laser at the same time bustin

indigo oasis
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My Hydra player is gonna be so pissed when I roll out a Melt Scourer

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Also my Zheng player

brisk flax
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@carmine idol @subtle nacelle hey, these are the lcp-important tweaks that I'm looking at for the 1.1 update

   Trigger: A hostile character in line of sight moves.

Berserker: Check the Berserker's Harpoon Cannon in the lcp to ensure it has the AP tag, someone mentioned this was missing

Hive: Check the Hive's Systems score progression in the lcp to ensure it is correct (it should be 2/3/4 instead of 2/2/3)

Priest: Change the Trigger text on Fractal Assault to the following:
   Trigger: A hostile character damages a character linked by Investiture.

Scout: Pathfinder formatting should be changed to the following:

Pathfinder
Trait
1/round, after the Scout makes a successful attack with the Marker Rifle, an allied character within Sensors and line of sight may Boost as a reaction.

Sentinel: Impaler formatting should be changed to the following:

Impaler
System
1/round, when the Sentinel hits with Overwatch, their target must pass a Hull save or become Immobilized and Jammed until the end of their next turn.```
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The latter two (Pathfinder and Impaler) may not be things that need tweaking on comp/con due to how it handles 1/round stuff via its own specific tags

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also to be clear, I will not be making further adjustments or etc at this time please do not go "I have some suggestions"

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These changes, and the ones I just got back from Mina (which involve some stuff that the lcp doesn't need to care about) are mainly just typo corrections and wording adjustments for editorial consistency (such as Pathfinder and Impaler being reformatted in line with other 1/round traits such as Blinding Shells, or Fire and Maneuver using "hostile character" instead of "enemy character")

carmine idol
indigo oasis
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That’s probably a CRB thing but that’s news to me

indigo oasis
vale crescent
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No, it aint CRB thing...

indigo oasis
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Oh it isn’t?

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Huh

vale crescent
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But the damage is 2/3/4 instead of 2/4/6

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so now it's just chip damager

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Wait a minute

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Because of how moving target works before the movement is taken, and impending threat adds "any action that doesn't target the archer" to the reaaction, does that mean it happens BEFORE the action is taken

whole barn
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nah, the trigger now is “the target starts to move, or the target takes any action that does not target the archer”. at least by my reading.

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and even the “starts to move” technically resolves before the reaction

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and then the movement comes after

vale crescent
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Oh yeah it specificalyl doesn;t interrupt

brisk flax
brisk flax
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with the Light Machine Gun. This attack interrupts
and resolves before the triggering movement.```
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The question is, does Impending Threat similarly interrupt when it adds the additional clauses, and the answer is ALSO yes, because CRB Impending Threat also interrupts

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action/movement, or continue but let the Archer
immediately attack them with a single weapon.```
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the key word here is "immediately" which has been clarified before to mean that it does interrupt

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the CRB gives you a choice to opt out and the rebake doesn't, it just rolls it all into one, but both reactions if they go off are intended to interrupt the triggering movement/action (CRB impending threat works against both movement and actions anyway) and the rebake similarly follows suit

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basically, the "opt out" of rebake Impending Threat is "target the Archer" if you do not want to be preemptively shot for doing stuff

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if you can damage the archer, it shuts off Suppress which in turn means Impending Threat empowered Moving Target goes away

young laurel
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Basically as long as you have a source of easy damage to slap the Archer with (like Reliable) you can just force the Archer to screw off.

Of course, it ain't that easy in a full engagement because you gotta weigh in your decisions on what you need to do to help with the objective.

Which is of course, berry naisu.

brisk flax
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Also not every person will have the ability to deal damage out to the Archer's max range

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if you're a melee guy and get suppressed then moving to get closer to the archer will proc moving target etc, so you might not be able to do it yourself

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there are other ways to break it as well which might require a teammate to yank them out of position or something

young laurel
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Is also good way to have players think of ways to deal with problems.

Make them perform the awful act of using their brain.

vale crescent
potent jasper
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hey question, for the defender type grunt, with interpose, the character it's targeting gains resistance to the damage and the defender-type is then destroyed. if I Glitch Time that with a Lich, do I steal the resistance to the damage, and as well then destroyed, or is it still the defender-type that is destroyed?

random urchin
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I wouldn't think you'd be destroyed, "destroyed" isn't a Condition or Status.

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If I understand right that you're talking about making yourself the target of Interpose, the Defender-type being destroyed is the Defender-type's problem.

bold crystal
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Glitch Time requires you target a character that is being affected by another character. so you can't target the defender-type itself when it uses Interpose, so you must be targeting the target of Interpose.

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the action then resolves as if you were the original target. you 'get resistance', the defender-type is destroyed, and because you're (probably) not one of the targets of the attack, the actual target of the attack that triggered Interpose takes full damage and you take no damage(or half if it was targeting you and hit you)

neon blaze
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Can't believe the Strider, an NPC I am used to dying on the first few turns, basically managed to survive until round 7

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I already gave my feedback ofc but like. damn. I like these little bastards

brisk flax
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nice

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Are they accomplishing much besides not dying?

brisk flax
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Another way of looking at it is the lich steals effects, not causes

potent jasper
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oh i've been misinterpreting what "the character taking the action" means for a bit now huh

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ok that was close to how i was thinking of it, only change would be i'm shoving the character getting resistance and not the grunt. also the strider got a lot of good shots in, 10 kinetic non-reducible is nothing to sneeze at

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definitely punchier than regular strider

neon blaze
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this one managed to get two Crits off with the Ranger Rifle, and a nasty double tap with the Carbine, which amounted to about two/almost three structure loss

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from a single standard NPC

brisk flax
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damn, my boy's got hands

neon blaze
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again, i only think it got away with all this because it got ignored for the bigger names on the block (i glance to the 6 structure ultra and the various Elites + Veterans around) but it didn't just

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i 'unno

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suck

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i'm really happy with the result

brisk flax
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"didn't just suck and die" is already a marked improvement over the wallflower strider

neon blaze
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precisely

potent jasper
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it did the hitting and running thing it's theorized to do

neon blaze
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right, yeah

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surprisingly mobile even if I forgot the one biggest mobiltiy tool which was the reaction

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if I didn't forget it would of probably lived even longer tbh

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same with the self repair thing

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I just overlooked that unfortunately but that was just a in the moment thing

brisk flax
brisk flax
ashen patio
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Hang on now, Wallflower rebakes? 👀

subtle nacelle
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yea jump in, we're playtesting!

ashen patio
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I suppose it's a good thing that I have the entirety of Wallflower prepped and ready for one shots...

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Wait, jump in where?

rose hamlet
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As in “it is currently accepting feedback”

ashen patio
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Reading through the Avenger at the moment, and it immediately is addressing problems that I experienced making Roadblock feel fun, with The Weapon being either an obnoxiously oppressive force, or just completely useless

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Lurker question: with the whip dragging them adjacent on hit, does the double damage of 'hitting someone within the shroud zone" will that result in them taking double damage, or is the attack made outside of the shroud zone?

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Devouring Shard

Does this deliberately not care which shroud zone it is? Could it just use any shroud zone on the map? (I approve, just wanting to clarify)

brisk flax
ashen patio
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Excellent!

I know that lancer can sometimes have weird activations between attacks (In this example: On hit they're pulled into the shroud, which makes them become shreded, and then damage is applied, IIRC), so wanted to make sure

brisk flax
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And no, devouring shard doesn't care about which shroud zone you use for it, that's be design as a way to have shroud zones function as a threat on their own

flint hollow
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I have to admit, knowing that the Rebake is taking on the Wallflower NPCs has me curious how you might essentially do the combat composition for a "Rebake" of Wallflower itself

ashen patio
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First impressions so far:

Avenger: I like the idea of the stance dance, but I think that the Revenge gimmick is more ally reliant than most. I would need to see it in play (And would be happy to PUT it in play)

Lurker: I 100% agree on how much of a hassle it is to manage multiple lurker zones. In my own games, I tend to take it 1 step further in which lurkers cross cooperate, and can support each other's shroud zones, so long as it remains no more than 3x lurkers. If one dies, the total number still need to be reduced, but without having to keep track of which 3 zones were in possession of each lurker.

Spite: In a weird way, I have difficulty separating the unit class, from The Broadcast, the boss spite introduced in the campaign, and how it feels when used in conjuncture with a gauntlet sitrep specifically. The players are specifically trying to move a long distance in as short a time as possible, while you have the enemy Broadcast spite punishing you for doing just that, while having longer-range units huddled up next to it to defend the objective zone. So as I look at this reworked spite, I feel like it losing adjacency benefits (other than guardian) for allies feels a bit.. off?

Actually, just taking another look, [The Broadcast] is literally the only Spite in the entire book. So while I can try to think of how to better utilize the spite in some manner is hard just from the fact I've not actually utilized it in any way. I feel like if Enthrone had an adjacency option as well (Choosing to defend someone at range, or defending everyone adjacent to you) then I'd like it more, but I'll admit my bias here.

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Strider: I actually just ran Venom earier today. And while I know Venom is an Elite Veteran (with 4+ plyers) making him not a great example, he did destroy 2 mechs before rolling a 1 on his second structure roll and dying immediately.

All that being said: I love that you limited it to just two kits, and gave bonuses to those two kits, instead of just giving them even more kits. I 100% support this, though a part of me definitely misses their offensive swap to just rifle-butt someone outside of their personal space (Which I feel was an answer to your comment about swapping kits eating action economy). That's a minor gripe that is easily assuaged by the existence of benefits to stick to a single kit, rather than ALWAYS swapping.

brisk flax
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To clarify one of my long ongoing stances, I am not really looking for "I read it and think X" type feedback

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like I don't mind if people want to share thoughts but things like "I think the avenger's thing is more ally reliant, based purely on my read of it" is not something that I am ever really going to pay heed to

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same with the spite

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the reason it doesn't have adjacency options is because the wallflower spite can't make up its mind what it wants to do, there are design notes specifically pertaining to this

ashen patio
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That is fair, and I shall avoid doing so in the future. I am looking forward to trying to test these out on a few maps, and will give more feedback on my experience on them as I can!

brisk flax
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As for Enthrone, the other part of the Spite and the most defender-ish element, it now works at a distance rather than via adjacency. I'm fine with the Spite being slow and even self-immobilizing (though it now only does this with Enthrone rather than Imprison) as long as its identity is more clearly carved out, and I think utilizing its long Sensor range works better than an awkward split between long and close range, especially as it helps bring Enthrone into greater prominence.

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I'm not really interested in the Spite's awkward identity as a long-range debuffer that also moonlights as a close-range defender, like I can see the vision of "this unit is good at multiple range bands," but this isn't just that, it's also asking allies to play around the Spite at that close range in order for Enthrone (and Guardian) to become useful while also simultaneously wanting to play the Imprison keepaway game, and fundamentally I don't think it marries those two elements very cohesively

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re: Offensive Swap, the replacement for that is essentially the Skirmisher kit getting a free attack with a knockback 3 gun

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you don't get that when switching to the Marksman Kit, but that's part of carving out a more distinct set of choices for "do I stay in this kit or do I swap?"

ashen patio
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And I do like that.

I actually kinda want to re-rack Widowmaker and try this out immediately.

indigo oasis
dapper plover
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but it's also a striker, yeah? not just a defender w a high damage option (e.g. the way the demolisher is)

indigo oasis
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Yes that’s why it has a range 8 threat weapon + erupting shrapnel + Revenge

brisk flax
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I mean, also the thing is the Avenger is ally-reliant in any context, rebake or no

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that's sort of the whole point of it, is it relies on someone dying in proximity for the state change

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the main issue with it is there's no real thought process or hard decision for players to deal with in its extant implementation, it's basically always just "focus fire the Avenger" like an obligatory chore

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the flipside is if you go "well I'll just have the avenger shoot one of its own guys to trigger revenge" which is RAW legal but also extremely uninteresting imo

dapper plover
ashen patio
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Certainly something to note: Combining Weathering and Ranger Training to scuttle around on the ground for perpetual +1 difficulty is hilarious but also has little counterplay for players as there isn't a way to focibly un prone them

fluid zodiac
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That's probably just addressed by re-phrasing weathering slightly unless it's designed for them to be able to schmove when prone

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But they're still slowed, so there's that

brisk flax
ashen patio
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So, would that ignore the free movement from the Skirmisher kit?

brisk flax
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Is it worth being perma-slowed for +1 difficulty on attacks? Also being perma-slowed means no additional sources of movement like Reposition, kit bonus movement, etc

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Slowed means Standard Move Only

ashen patio
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Right right.

That's certainly fair. Admittedly, I've got my map with a lot of innate difficult terrain that is being taken advantage of.

fluid zodiac
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So that synergy is intended? (as opposed to only having immunity to areas of difficult terrain)

brisk flax
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you go from "Slowed + Difficult Terrain" to "Slowed," which on a still somewhat fragile artillery/striker that wants to flexibly reposition, isn't super ideal

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if someone really wants to do it that way I think at a glance it's probably fine and doesn't break anything because staying prone still makes several elements of the strider's kit harder to use

indigo oasis
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At the very least at a glance Slow doesn’t impact the Marksman Kit

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Skirmisher Kit does get hit but it can always get up before swapping to Skirmisher Kit in that case

brisk flax
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yeah slowed doesn't really impact the marksman kit because the marksman kit is the substantially less mobile portion of the strider

indigo oasis
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But being able to ignore difficult terrain means it can get full use out of its standard move before swapping to Strider kit, which can be helpful with both navigating between ordnance’s + getting the most movement + an attack out of its swap bonus

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Since it can stand up as part of swapping the kit

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There’s not really many reasons for it to not drop prone whenever it swaps to Marksman if it has Weathering, huh?

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Without add ons at least

brisk flax
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Is this an actual gameplay concern or just an observation?

indigo oasis
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Just an observation

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I think it’s neat :3

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It only becomes a concern IF I ever use it and the feedback says it’s kinda bs

tranquil flower
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Question, for the wallflower rebake draft, is it intended to balance the npcs with the campaign in mind? With general play in mind? Both? Neither?

rose hamlet
tranquil flower
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I see, thanks

twin reef
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If a Veteran Ronin Deflects a Veil Rifle shot at one of the shooter's allies, does it just give them soft cover?

bold crystal
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...normally ronin deflect gets around 'are you an ally to the target' for veil rifle/marathon arc with the default answer of 'you're not an ally to yourself, ever', but, as Angled Deflection and Rebound are written, you would be making the attack against your ally, and so you shortcut it as normal and give them soft cover(or overshield).

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I think that's the RAW answer.

brisk flax
brisk flax
# rose hamlet Pretty sure it’s in general

That's correct, nothing is being done with an eye towards integration in specific modules. "What would a rebake of Wallflower's encounters look like?" is beyond the scope of what I'm concerned with

brisk flax
opal folio
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when a smaller character 'occupies the same space' as a larger character, they technically count as occupying any of said larger character's spaces, correct?

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i have a Funny idea for a desant hardpoint sniper chariot that uses the restock drone to auto-reload its rifle

opal folio
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also - if a sniper uses moving target against a flying target, they don't actually have a choice about receiving the mark, correct? since flying characters can't fall prone?

wicked hollow
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got a big evil grin on my face seeing hive's command override optional

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ok witch immolate is scary actually

opal folio
brisk flax
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moving via mule harness, goblin symbiosis, etc, is involuntary

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I have no idea how it COULD be voluntary systemically

opal folio
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Right, I think the specific callout of 'this is unaffected by slowed' is throwing me

brisk flax
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just wording taken straight from mule harness, which I think is just a generic reminder of how involuntary movement works since it typically doesn't take the form of "riding in someone else's space"

brisk flax
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Hello everyone, just making an announcement that the 1.1 version of NPCs Rebaked is now live and uploaded to itch, along with the 1.20.0 versions of the lcps

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Again, for those who missed it, this update is strictly typo corrections and some formatting changes, nothing has changed in terms of content or mechanical implementation and I do not plan to make any such changes in the future

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Things like the missing Goliath Tier 3 stats, some lcp omissions, some "this should use the Accuracy/Burst/etc symbols instead of the words" type stuff, and a few tweaks to the formatting of several abilities for editorial consistency, there's a published devlog which has a full rundown of everything in the specifics

rose hamlet
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Dev logs 😌

brisk flax
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I really wish I knew why itch did this

image.png
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it keeps fucking up the formatting in posts

rose hamlet
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Yeah I’ve got no clue, it fucks with mine too

brisk flax
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I've found good results writing the post in notepad and then copy/pasting into the text box, I'm gonna need to remember to do that from now on

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someone once mentioned itch was coded by the same guy who coded the Something Awful forums (radium) which, if true, would explain a lot about a lot of things

rose hamlet
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Yeah all I do is copy paste my Markdown from my GitHub changelogs and it seems to largely work. It only throws a fit when I copy/paste or hit enter within the itch-managed input boxes

twin reef
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Does that mean itch also has load-bearing slurs?

rose hamlet
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What??

ancient forge
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I assume a reference to some detail about the Something Awful forums

brisk flax
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lmao yeah, SA's forum code was notoriously janky

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It was then dubbed a load bearing slur```
young laurel
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Wait SA Forum guy was the one who made the code for Itch.io???

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That explains a lot actually.

brisk flax
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This is what someone said, I don't know how true it is or not

fluid zodiac
young laurel
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Ah then nothing makes sense again.

brisk flax
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Idk if leaf made all of itch himself or had help

minor tundra
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I think I been able to correct the weird line breaks by going in and manually line breaking, then deleting the line break before? Don't know why or if its a reliable technique, but I swear its worked

brisk flax
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yeah there's like a few ways to do it but sometimes it swings the other direction and gets even worse somehow

marsh nest
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I realize it's probably for simplicity that the NPC rebake says grunts should have absolutely no templates, but nothing bad (in a design sense) will happen if I put Vehicle on them, right? To make light scout cars or small self propelled artillery or such?

smoky bluff
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nothing wrong with that tbh

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it even fits their thematics, less armored, more utilitarian

indigo oasis
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Basic templates like that and Spacer make sense

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Just don’t give them any fancy optionals

errant needle
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I've toyed with RPV grunts but I go back and forth about whether RPV's increased HP betrays the spirit of the Grunt or if it's such a minute difference it mostly just means GMS pistols can't delete them hit or miss.

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And leaves them mostly still as cheap cannon fodder that's still heavily vulnerable to hackers

random urchin
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I fielded two groups of Grunt Vehicle RPV Assaults a few months ago as unmanned aerial vehicles. The Grunt's "Chaff" rule means that the Grunt can't have more than 1 HP. I'm aware that the RPV's other traits are both hindrances, but a combination of Reliable and sticking to the bit kept me on that path.

brisk flax
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The Grunt has 1 HP and can’t gain more.```
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So you can make them RPVs but they don't gain the +5 HP, they just become permanently impaired and have the e-war debuffs

brisk flax
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The reason they have the Necessary Modifications trait is specifically so you're not stuck going "ugh I want to do a zero-g combat but I can't take Spacer so all my grunts have to be perma-slowed" which would, among other issues, really degrade the performance of Striker-type grunts

twin reef
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I figure Necessary Modifications would give them immunity to pervasive environmental effects. Like, if the location says, "The weather is extremely hot. At the end of your turn, take 1 Heat", then this wouldn't automatically kill grunts.

brisk flax
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It doesn't

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Necessary Modifications does exactly what it says on the tin and nothing more

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Grunts may deploy with modifications which allow
them to move normally.```
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so basically this lets them ignore that specific hangup, in space or underwater or whatever

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any other hostile terrain issues aren't compensated for, if there's a modifier that will instantly kill grunts then welp, don't run grunts in that fight

bright crown
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It's been confirmed we won't be getting an eidolon rebake, so I'll jot some ideas down at some point
so far I have:
-kill abyssal
-reflective shouldn't depend on damage type, instead being dependent on something else. really big ronin maybe

young laurel
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I almost spat out my water.

First idea. "Kill Abyssal."

bright crown
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homebrew authors lend me your flashlights

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reflective shards should reflect damage in a different, much more specific way than the eidolon itself. briefly thought of the idea of them shooting the eidolon themselves?

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on the topic of shards I'm a little curious about the thought process behind each layer's shard gain on transition and how some delete all shards when their layer ends

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seems to me like there might be some layers that transition smoother tthan others? This probably is not the place for eidolon talk

brisk flax
#

everyone complains about abyssal and to be frank I would probably not kill it because I don't think it needs to be killed

bright crown
#

mainly in jest, it probably could be adjusted

brisk flax
#

I think the primary crux of the issue is the secondary clause about not revealing the eidolon or shards on the map, less the "no LoS outside of range 2 but you can use someone else as a spotter"

bright crown
#

I remember getting hung up on if you reveal the line template on the board or not

#

I 100% agree there. there are times where contradicting the core game design is good, but it didn't work out this time

subtle nacelle
#

ah damn, so abyssal isnt supposed to be actual fog of war? cuz a couple of years ago a friend ran it for us and seeking didnt work cuz we literally didnt know what we were targeting

bold crystal
#

abyssal is deeply annoying but half the issue is like, it's really clear where it is if you know what the mechanics are but eidolons very much err on the side of 'don't tell players exactly what is going on' and it is very easy for GMs to fuck that up by giving less information than they're supposed to

#

as a great example of this; it does not say to do this, but it is very easy for a GM to look at it and go 'yeah! you can't distinguish the eidolon from a shard!'

brisk flax
# subtle nacelle ah damn, so abyssal isnt supposed to be actual fog of war? cuz a couple of years...

So this is what Abyssal says

permanently INVISIBLE, and teleports when it moves.

As soon as this layer manifests, pitch black darkness
blankets the entire battlefield and the Eidolon teleports
to a point within line of sight and Range 8. Characters other
than the Eidolon and its shards cannot draw line of sight
to or target anything further away than Range 2. However
they do share line of sight with allied characters and
can make attacks against targets within Range 2 of them,
allowing them to act as spotters for each other.

The precise locations of the Eidolon and its shards are
not revealed on the map unless a hostile character
moves within Range 2 of them. Characters that are targeted
by APPETITE are aware of the cardinal direction the
attack came from, but not the precise location.```
#

How this breaks down is, as best as can be determined:
1). Everyone (the Eidolon and also its shards, which is explained in the Shard description) is capital-I Invisible, 50% miss chance

2). The LoS restriction kicks in. Here's some ambiguity because "can't draw line of sight to or target anything further away than Range 2" is different from "can't draw line of sight to anything further away than Range 2." One of these is bypassed by Seeking/Arcing (it's basically like blinded) but the other isn't, because it's a much more absolute targeting requirement ("can't target anything").

3). This bit IS basically fog of war

bold crystal
#

(also the appetite targeting thing is kind of... limited in usefulness. if it ever targets two people you can potentially outright know where it(or a shard) was when it fired, depending on position. again, mechanics that are really easy to follow when you know what it does and what its range and speed are, but are really awkward and unclear otherwise)

indigo oasis
# bright crown It's been confirmed we won't be getting an eidolon rebake, so I'll jot some idea...

From what I’ve heard, the issue most people have with Eidolon isn’t specifically the Layer Puzzles, but moreso the fact that a. Ignoring resistance bypasses them easily, b. Each layer gets blitzed past a bit too fast once you know the solution so there’s no replay value, and c. The only threat is the Eidolon and maybe the map, no real creativity when it comes to deepening the combat with additional NPCs

brisk flax
bold crystal
#

"you can't scan this" is bad every time it shows up, scan is bad enough already!

#

(also, in a funny note, abyssal is already unscannable, functionally.)

brisk flax
bright crown
#

slightly different reflective layer to straight up something completely new

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

I mean, "just make up new NPC stuff as you need" is functionally useless advice tbh

bright crown
#

yeahp

brisk flax
#

Hand someone a blank sheet of paper and tell them "now draw the owl"

bold crystal
#

20 layers+different layer order gives you a lot of potential, depending on how they interact with shards in particular

brisk flax
#

It doesn't work for lancer because lancer doesn't use an NPC formula

indigo oasis
#

Tho to be fair, even if you know a lot about NPC types, the approach to beating (aka “solving” them) is frequently not as straightforward as solving an Eidolon layer

brisk flax
#

4E D&D had a much more systemized method of NPC creation and could work that way, but you especially can't do it for something like eidolons

bold crystal
#

my other minor bugbear about abyssal is that range 2 is slightly too short probably and range 3 would make it more clearly 'fair' when you have size 1 mechs
(either that or 'it doesn't teleport when it moves'.)

brisk flax
#

literally just back of napkin stuff
1). I would make it clear the targeting issue is straight-up "can't target outside of range 2" so that nobody gets hung up on seeking/arcing, whether I would change the range is undetermined (burst 3 is actually quite large and gets even larger with size 2 mechs to the point that I feel it would make the whole hidden info thing somewhat irrelevant)
2). Instead of cardinal direction, if I was going to preserve the hidden info aspect, I would literally tell GMs to use the line of APPETITE itself, that is "the line of the attack is visible and you use that as your guidepost," you can literally draw it on the map or whatever

bright crown
#

I should note that down and poke at it a little more

brisk flax
#

part of the conundrum with something like this is both that lancer map sizes aren't standardized and neither are mech sizes

bold crystal
#

yeah

brisk flax
#

"is burst 2 too small?" are you on a 40x40 map or a 10x10 map

bold crystal
#

also, secondarily, drone spam. hydra. if you throw a hydra at abyssal it gets sad really fast

brisk flax
#

and tbh, for an eidolon fight I might actually put down specific map size requirements

brisk flax
#

I think there are degrees of "this is too much of a bypass" versus "this is fine to let someone have it"

bold crystal
#

yeah that's something I think is fine, I just had to bring it up at some point

bright crown
#

I was about to say, I feel like we could give hydra a win there

bold crystal
#

I would be remiss otherwise

brisk flax
#

"I use paracausal mod to brute force this thing to death and bypass all its mechanics" is, imo, more of an actual problem than the hydra getting to use 10000 eyes to beat the lord of darkness

bold crystal
#

damage can't be reduced really messes with a lot more eidolon layers.

#

abyssal is just the one eidolon everyone runs into because it's in a module

indigo oasis
bright crown
#

How's this?

"Characters other than the eidolon and its shards illuminate a burst 2 area around themselves and are unable to target anything that is not inside of an illuminated radius, including those of allied characters. "

#

there are presumably benefits and drawbacks of giving it a keyword but I can't really see where it would become a problem

bold crystal
#

(also, Predictable noting that eidolons can take normal NPC actions feels kind of... misleading. almost all layers straight up cannot, unless Jammed or Slowed, since they can't overcharge and always take their layer system actions in some order. this would especially be unnecessary if layers had recommended max sizes.)

brisk flax
#

like, I would probably say explicitly that eidolons CAN'T take any actions other than their listed ones and work from there

#

you get a standard move and you get your layer actions period, no ram or lock on or whatever, who cares

bold crystal
#

like most of the cases where eidolons take non-layer actions are 'you somehow outranged it and now it's boosting and quick tech invading you'

#

or 'it is jammed and can't fire its one gun'

bright crown
#

list of eidolon specific fallback actions maybs

#

potentially even layer specific? unsure

bold crystal
#

probably layer specific imo

#

you don't need to say what a jammed layer does if none of its systems are affected by jammed

#

or what a slowed layer does if it doesn't have any special moves

viral wadi
#

One thing that I've found an Eidolon rework would need to address is Hidden. Because a lot of them just... can't do anything about it. The only way to be able to Search is if literally everyone is Hidden, allowing for default action.

brisk flax
#

yeah that's probably how I'd look at it

indigo oasis
#

Hey is the Archer’s Save Target scaling correct? In the latest PDF it scales 11/13/16, which seems kinda incongruent with the Rebake’s linear scaling and feels kinda like a typo.

Also, are some NPCs supposed to get a random +1 to speed in tier 3? It happens several times so I assume it’s intentional but I wanna make sure

#

I checked all the other NPCs too- Archer is the only NPC with that kind of Save Target Scaling. If it’s intentional then I trust the process, it just looks out of place.

brisk flax
#

the demolisher also goes 10/13/15 for example

indigo oasis
#

Oh I must’ve missed that then nevermind

brisk flax
#

as for speed increase, a number of NPCs do this and I very specifically talk about it in the design notes

#

like the breacher, sentinel, etc

#

other NPCs get it too and I'm not super fussed by it

indigo oasis
#

Oh I must’ve forgotten - it’s been a while since I read the design notes.

brisk flax
#

Some Tier 3 statblocks do get some increases but I'm mainly concerned with large, sudden, arbitrary jumps in things like damage scaling, sensors, armor, speed that rises incongruously, etc

young laurel
#

More trouble than its worth combing through everything?

brisk flax
#

getting somewhat faster at Tier 3 is fine with me for certain units, I wouldn't do it for a Demolisher or Pyro because I very specifically want their slow speed to inform their playstyle, but the Sentinel getting extra speed at Tier 3 is something I think works better as a way of keeping pace

#

I think something like the old breacher's speed scaling was more incongruous starting at 3 and then advancing to 5 by the end

indigo oasis
#

Yeah the speed increases were consistent enough that they seemed intentional

young laurel
#

Could have sworn Breacher's speed scaling was 3/3/4

#

CRB wise at least

bold crystal
#

core is 3/4/5, rebake is 3/3/4

young laurel
#

Huh, odd. Fast shotty gun

indigo oasis
#

Well the CRB breacher was also size 1, + breach ram moves it 5 spaces flat, so I think in that case that scaling makes sense. Less so in the rebake where it’s size 2, hence the reduced scaling

young laurel
#

Oh yeah Breacher is deceptively slow. Not as slow as you think it is.

bold crystal
#

scaling speed significantly by tier has weird effects, especially with units that don't have better-than-boost movement like the breacher

indigo oasis
#

But the Breacher does have better than boost movement- Breach Ram

bold crystal
#

oop, misphrased

#

units that. aren't the breacher

indigo oasis
#

lol fair

young laurel
#

And Berserker

indigo oasis
#

Tho to me the Breacher, with Follower Count, is kinda a bully unit that focuses on pursuing a chosen target. I feel like the speed increase kinda makes sense to allow it to be better at that and let optionals like Follower Count scale better

bold crystal
#

for example the core specter going 4/5/7 speed means the range it can reach and hit you at goes 11/13/17

brisk flax
#

The reason I don't care for the CRB breacher's scaling is specifically because I want it to lean more heavily on engagement tools like Breach Ram or things like Follower Count

indigo oasis
#

I’m not saying it’s a good choice to let the speed scale, but it does make sense for the CRB Breacher

brisk flax
#

it being slower but with bursts of speed is, imo, more of an interesting baseline dynamic than something that just gradually gets sanded off

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I respect that, and it is more interesting imo

#

Man I miss Breachers

brisk flax
#

I think by Tier 3 you can reasonably expect PCs to have a good amount of mobility working for them even if they're strictly anti-Agility so some NPCs getting speed boosts isn't really an incongruity I care a lot about compared to "suddenly +5 sensors" or something

#

also I dislike "going from 0 armor to 1 armor" more than "going from 3 armor to 4" even though strictly speaking the latter is broadly considered more impactful

indigo oasis
#

Oh shoot when did Breach Ram start doing flat 30 object damage?

#

That’s a welcome change I didn’t notice happened

young laurel
#

Doesn't Breach Ram do damage just to objects, drones, and cover while terrain just gets busted down like they're the Kool-Aid Man?

brisk flax
# 
Breacher’s path take 10/20/30 kinetic AP.```
# 
Thermal Charge going from a Limited 1 system to a
Recharge 6+, the Breacher also has a sideline in terrain
destruction. Its terrain damage capabilities have been
increased to a flat 30 AP damage at all tiers, primarily so
it can blow openings in the terrain big enough to fit its
bigger body through; at Tier 1, only dealing 10 damage
to terrain might render it incapable of breaching holes in
larger obstructions unless the GM is accommodatingly
making everything out of Size 1 blocks.```
indigo oasis
#

Yeah during really really early playtests I remember being one of the folks who struggled with the tier 1 breach Ram damage

#

Never knew that got changed ^v^

young laurel
#

Make everything out of Size 1 Blocks.

For some reason this makes me think that if Physics does its shenanigans and just Vintage Story style have the terrain collapse the tunnel the Breacher just made.

#

But yeah making it do Flat 30 AP to Obstructions and Objects is the better way to go honestly.

opal folio
#

does the sniper's mark ignore 'counts-as' invis effects like flicker field?

brisk flax
twin reef
vale crescent
young laurel
#

They shoot at you but actually make a cartoon outline of your mech instead.

austere compass
#

@rose hamlet for your interest too 👆

brisk flax
#

Thanks, I'll have to give this a try

brisk flax
#

So for a status update as to where we're at re: wallflower rebakes:
-Avengers still seem to be in the most solid possible state of the bunch, I have so far had no real major issues arise and a lot of the feedback has been complimentary, so I am going to assume these are in a good state
-Spites, issues of Action Diversity Robustness aside, also seem to be performing well(?). The one thing I would like to have more feedback on, broadly, is Imprison and whether it's having any effect beyond as a carrier for Edict, things like whether the automatic application and/or the ticking heat have made it more of a threat directly or not
-Lurkers so far haven't come up with a lot of negatives, but also I haven't gotten a ton of feedback on them still, so I feel like it's way too early to tell
-Striders I continue to want more feedback on. The core kit seems to be working largely okay, between the new statblock and the adjustments to the Marksman and Skirmisher kits, but I still very much want more feedback on the ins and outs of these guys, ranging from things like "are the grenades seeing use" to "what about the survival knife" to the kit add-ons, I would love feedback on as much as I can get, as right now I still do not feel confident in just going "yep, nailed it"
-Veteran traits are also a part of this. I'd love feedback on all of these, even on things like the Avenger which is in good shape baseline

mighty granite
#

Can I ask:
im assuming its a minor loss (seems to be atleast) but…

Orchis reliable ignore —
WW armor scaling from reliable —-
Are nerfed right
As well as
Dusk wing multi attack heat punishment —- less attacks less heat

  • Minotaur predator/prey concepts is nerfed from weaker npc scaling

Right?

Unless I’m missing something

#

Is there anything else that might have minor nerfs from stuff and changes

#

paracasual ranged weapons no longer get as much value from ignoring Demolishers 1/off resist :D

restive fable
#

I don't think the number of enemies with Reliable changed that significantly tbh

Rainmaker and Assault lost it, but iirc Sentinel and Operator gained it

dapper sierra
#

the rebake doc very pointedly retained the specific number of NPCs with Reliable, it just shuffled it around

dapper sierra
rose hamlet
#

yeah like sure you can't shoot a Raptor Plasma Rifle 3 times with a Tier 3 full tech, but really should you be able to do that

brisk flax
#

that I did not feel particularly strongly about keeping

dapper sierra
#

ah true true

brisk flax
restive fable
#

Neurospike is probably a bit worse but I feel like that's an acceptable price to pay for not taking 21 + xd6 damage

mighty granite
#

Iirc

brisk flax
dapper sierra
#

well yeah because people use those NPCs often because they seem generic

brisk flax
#

tom didn't give the orchis reliable immunity based on an assumption that X percent of opfor strikers would be Assaults

mighty granite
#

That’s fair but also

#

It’s kinda funny to imagine that actually uh

brittle cipher
mighty granite
#

Of course of course

brisk flax
#

like with all due respect, "three NPCs had reliable and now three NPCs have reliable" is a net change of zero in terms of "how many NPCs now have reliable damage baseline"

mighty granite
#

Orchis will never financially recover from this

brisk flax
#

I am willing to bet that there probably is a slant towards things like assaults and archers and rainmakers in opfor comps which is WHY I shuffled that stuff elsewhere, but the GM is capable of making a sandwich using sentinels and operators

restive fable
#

(tbh I use more Sentinels than Assaults because I keep wanting to use different strikers/arty with more diverse gimmicks)

brisk flax
#

I feel the same way about the comments I've heard to the effect that the rebake devalues resistance/armor by adding more Shredded stuff, which is true, but also most of the added Shredded in the NPC side of things comes from optional systems, not a default baseline, which means you are the one in charge of how much of that stuff actually gets used

mighty granite
brisk flax
#

like if you're making entire comps out of explosive knife assassins and hullcracker demolishers and thermal charge breachers, that's a you problem

restive fable
#

also Sentinels/Archers having or keeping reliable is nice, because at a certain point almost my entire party picked up Skirmisher 3

#

so I get a lot of "... yeah never mind not gonna use Overwatch" moments

brittle cipher
mighty granite
#

However orchis with a bindle looking sad and walking away before looking back once then continuing to walk

brittle cipher
#

you put Oops All Shred together

#

why are you surprised that it was all shred

rose hamlet
#

Orchis saying "fuck you Archers and Sentinels" is actually kinda based though

#

all my homies hate reactive strikes

mighty granite
#

This is true

#

Orchis with the bundle walking back here

restive fable
#

One thing I've noticed is that paracausal mod/Seeking Payload is a bit less valuable since resistance abilities got trimmed down some

#

and some NPCs gained a bit of bulk as a result

brisk flax
#

again, three NPCs still have reliable damage, among them two reaction based guys

brisk flax
#

the big loss is basically the goliath no longer having siege armor, and MAYBE the demolisher losing dig in

rose hamlet
#

like if anything I think Orchis comes out ahead here, like when's the Assault or Rainmaker gonna seriously target an Orchis? Vs. Sentinel and Archer which leans into the Orchis's speed and mobility

brisk flax
#

ah, and the barricade

#

but like

mighty granite
#

The barricade one is a bit rough iirc according to the time I ran it once

#

My elite.. it’s broken

brisk flax
#

point-defense shield, hunker down, siege armor on bombards, etc

mighty granite
#

(In that it died fast)

#

(And I’m sad about that)

#

Why did scourers keep energy resist anyway?

Nucav stuff? I’m guessing?

brisk flax
#

that and mainly I found no reason to ditch it, whereas when I moved drag down to the barricade base kit I didn't want them to have five base abilities and so I elected to cut the thing I felt was least interesting about their stuff

#

bulwark mods is substantially more useful for the NPC that can create difficult terrain, and they gained more HP

#

Also the barricade can now move/do other stuff and then give themselves hard cover on demand

mighty granite
#

True

#

I figured it was like a.. damage types are stinky thing which I would also agree with

brisk flax
#

I mean, type based resistances do strike me as not being predicated on much more than vibes, I am doubtful the scourer has energy resistance for any reason other than "it's the laser guy" versus "well because of nuclear cavalier,"

#

but Ablative Shielding wasn't in the way and Shock Plating was, so

mighty granite
#

Now you just got to give someone explosive resist, as a treat

restive fable
#

A funny side effect of Scourers having energy resist is that their armor is more valuable at low levels

#

I put some Scourers in an LL0 mission because they're good tutorial strikers with a telegraphed game plan, and it turns out most of the AP weapons you can use against them do energy damage

#

Exception is the AMR, but they got pretty hard to dent in a party without one of those

mighty granite
#

Mkay so…. Ultra avenger is a terrible idea right

#

Cooking up a thing based on a notable session event

#

(Legionnaire being a absolute chad)

#

Seems like too much hp by far

#

Hm

rose hamlet
restive fable
#

I've run it before

mighty granite
#

160 effective health

#

Hmmm

restive fable
#

It's not, like, the worst

#

but can be quite dangerous

mighty granite
#

Oh wait my party has shred

restive fable
#

Also don't assume it has 160 effective health lol

mighty granite
#

Fair

restive fable
#

You can defeat the resistance with forced movement, etc

daring surge
#

You can defeat any resistance with paracausal kinetic hammer

mighty granite
#

No they are like level lmao

daring surge
#

That t3 ultra avenger died in a single round

mighty granite
#

4

restive fable
daring surge
#

Because it might as well had a "kill me first" sign taped to its forehead

restive fable
#

but yeah resistance can be countered

Ultra Avengers are manageable but you might not want to just bash your head straight into them

daring surge
#

Also tanoshii played down the encounter. It was an avenger surrounded by 7 other units that all could use a reaction to take a blow for the Avenger and die

#

So it had to be puppeted/grappled away first. Could be a fun thing to replicate

restive fable
#

That guy was only an Elite though

#

Author is nowhere near as big a deal as his future book deal would suggest, don't fall for it

daring surge
#

When all you have is a para hammer, all the nails look the same

restive fable
#

But yes I like the Avenger as a kinda "puzzle" encounter you can solve by not just beating the pieces with a rock

That works sometimes tho, with the right rock

#

(that was a mini setpiece with six conscripts from Field Guide to Suldan and an Elite rebaked Avenger iirc)

brisk flax
#

like "this powers up the avenger" okay but it gets the overshield once, which is vastly less effective HP than resistance provides

restive fable
#

That means dealing with a powered up Ultra Avenger for however long it has left to live

brisk flax
#

sure but people fight ultra strikers all the time

#

"Ultra Assault" is not exactly a rarity

#

just saying that, like, you don't have to treat the avenger like it's that one enemy in left 4 dead that you have to sneak past or it one-shots you

restive fable
#

I do like Ultra Assault lol

vale crescent
young laurel
#

Hmmm, I wonder which NPC class and abilities fit for the Left 4 Dead zombos

smoky bluff
#

Smoker is probably going to be the hardest to draw parallels to, you're looking for a long range grappler who drags targets towards them. But the best is berserker's harpoon Cannon with longer range.

Boomer is sort of similar? It depends on what you want out of it. Its a body blocker, target focus entity, it could be a scout with self-destruction. But it probably won't be body blocking anybody

Tank is Demolisher
Hunter is Assassin
Charger is Cataphract
Jockey is Leech

Spitter is part Aerial denial and long range attacks so the closest parallel is going to be Hive, by technically.

#

I got an idea for a sitrep now

#

You could also reflavor's hive's drone Barrage as a smoker attack tbh

vale crescent
#

Oh god a smoker would be so cool in lancer

#

Hard as shit to balance tho

restive fable
#

There are some optional things that do the grapple + drag already aren't there

#

Pirates have the boarding leash, Cataphracts have a lasso I think

vale crescent
#

But at the range of smokers in L4D

young laurel
#

It is a chain of pirate cataphracts with boarding leash essentially leashing each other with the one at the end leashing their target. :]

restive fable
#

oh, spacer has the gravity rifle

vale crescent
#

Oh shit

#

Yeah that exists

mighty granite
#

Anyway as a side note I was more asking about what got weakened more out of curiosity

Because as I originally stated I still think the npc changes are worth it lol

indigo oasis
#

Specter, baseline, got a definitive nerf

#

Which is for the best

marsh nest
#

I haven't had enough experience actually testing them yet, but all of the things that annoyed me or my players in previous games have been at least touched, often altered in ways that make them immediately -seem- like they'll be better, or fairer, or less annoying.

#

I also like the rules standardization for stuff like Mine for example, where it uses the same keyword and just removes a lot of the confusion and surprise from players.

brisk flax
#

based on their prior posts

indigo oasis
#

Then I wouldn’t say armor got nerfed per se due to the removal of tier scaling multiattack. It may have gotten buffed in some small ways due to the curbing of NPC damage scaling but that’s splitting hairs- I think armor is just largely unchanged outside the context of specter

#

Curbing of NPC accuracy also buffed agility, but I won’t say Invis and Hull got nerfed by proxy

mighty granite
mighty granite
#

I don’t fully recall

brisk flax
#

The argument re: armor and multiattacks is that armor is supposed to be the counter to those, and removing multiattacks makes armor fall off as a defense, but my problem with this is that most tier-scaling multiattackers scale hard and armor in lancer barely scales if at all, it's not like HP where you can pump hull and gain more, it's not like grit which automatically scales, you have Sloped Plating to increase your armor and that's basically about it

#

so like yes, your 2 armor will apply multiplicatively against multiattackers, but if 10x3 specter damage is your problem, 8x3 specter damage isn't much of a solution

#

The Cataphract's Ram Cannon is probably the "best" of the multiattack weapons in that it has somewhat modest damage and only scales up to two attacks, so I believe that it's probably the best example of an NPC that gets stifled more by armor in a meaningful sense

#

And the flipside is that most PC mechs are not going to have a lot of armor in general, and so against those multiattackers will simply make them eat shit

#

there's a reason that ultra supreme melee ronins are a meme, there's a reason why Tier 3 operators are considered such a menace, etc

#

if someone wants to view this as a devaluation of armor that's their prerogative, but I do not feel that armor was actually forming a meaningful pillar of mitigation against these NPCs the way that NPC-side armor serves to blunt PC aux spam attacks because PC aux weapons are usually doing somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-4 damage rather than "6xTier, +1d6 on crit"

#

in terms of instances of AP available to NPCs, here's the quick and dirty breakdown:

CRB
Assault - High-Impact Rounds
Barricade - Drag Down
Bastion - Near-Threat Denial System
Demolisher - Demolition Hammer
Operator - Telefrag
Rainmaker - Huntsman
Ronin - Echo Edge
Seeder - Grav Spike
Sniper - AMR

Rebake
Barricade - Drag Down, Spike Barrier
Bastion - Near-Threat Denial System
Berserker - Harpoon Cannon
Demolisher - Demolition Hammer
Operator - Telefrag
Rainmaker - Huntsman*
Seeder - Grav Spike
Sniper - AMR```
#

And then there's Shredded, which has come up before in the form of "the rebake makes resistance worse because there's so much more shredded being thrown around"

# 
1. Assassin Explosive Knives optional
2. Bombard Bunker Buster Shells optional
3. Breacher Thermal Charge optional
4. Operator Telefrag optional
5. Hive Abrade veteran class trait
6. Ultra Harbinger Rockets optional
7. Ultra Wraith Nexus optional```
#

The Rebake adds seven optional sources of it, largely to diversify the pool GMs have to draw on to apply if if they want it in the opfor

#

The CRB sources of shredded are:

  1. Aegis Ring of Fire optional
  2. Berserker Chain Axe
  3. Breacher Break Armor
  4. Hornet Lock/Hold Javelins optional
  5. Scourer Supercharged optional
  6. Scout Marker Rifle
  7. Sniper Selective Loader optional
#

I might be missing one, this is sort of a casual breakdown

#

So it's basically three NPCs that have it in core kit, and then optionals

#

I personally feel like there's a lot of leaning on specific NPCs in opfors to account for high armor/resistance PCs, it's a lot of "well use scouts" or "use scourers" and that's not ineffective but I also feel like it sometimes means opfors get a bit one-note

#

and certain Shredded optionals are much more niche than others, like Ring of Fire or Selective Loader

#

Again, if someone wants to view this as devaluing resistance that's up to them, but my perspective is that the GM is in charge of building the opfor, and while I think that there are good and bad kinds of system mastery (i.e. "oh I should use Assaults as filler" is an example of a thing GMs can learn not to do, but having to learn it is counterintuitive and not immediately apparent from the information given to them) I think "making an opfor with a bunch of Shredded being flung around all over the place" is something that should, in fact, be much more apparent as a Thing You Have Chosen To Do

#

Can you make an OPFOR full of Explosive Knives Assassins and Lock/Hold Javelins Hornets and give ever Veteran Hive Abrade? Sure, you can also run double Witch in every comp against your party Blackbeard

twin reef
#

I thought Aegis Ring of Fire shredded in the original.

brisk flax
twin reef
#

Right. I can't read. I should nap.

brisk flax
#

My point in bringing it up is to note that it's a source of shredded, but it's also a pretty niche one, you are unlikely to see people recommend it as a counter to PC armor/resistance as opposed to "lol just use marker rifle"

#

It exists and it's neat, but it's more incidental and not something you can really proactively apply much

#

Of the NPCs that have it in core kit, Berserkers and Breachers both apply it, but apply it "randomly"

#

you either have to land a Chain Axe crit or you have to nab a Break Armor proc, neither of which are necessarily reliable sources

indigo oasis
#

Ya know speaking of Harbinger, I’m sure this has been asked before but Discord search be ass in Forums- when it says “targeting one space of their choice occupied by each hostile
non-Drone character within range30 and line of sight”, does that mean one space total or one space per targetable hostile character?

brisk flax
#

you can't go "target every character and place a blast template down centered on them" because okay what's the center of a size 2 character

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I presumed that’s why it was phrased that way I was just a little confused on the wording

#

Is good system and good choice I wanna use it someday

brisk flax
#

so when the ultra uses harbinger rockets, you pick one space for each PC mech on the map and you have to designate which part of them is getting the laser pointer

indigo oasis
#

I’m not saying this should be the case the current version is fine + no more changes are being done, but I do wonder if targeting an “adjacent space” instead of an occupied space would fuck the balance too much in exchange for streamlined phrasing… nah I’m imagining it and it just runs into the same word economy issues

ancient forge
#

Can anything in the rebake even apply shredded as reliably as the vanilla crb scout?

#

Don’t have either of the books in front of me but iirc that one is just “shoot; on hit, target’s shredded as long as they have lock on”

twin reef
#

And at +2 accuracy and ignoring cover, hidden, and invisible.

brisk flax
#

and notably the rebake scout can no longer even do that

marsh nest
#

rebake scout is just as almost as reliable, since it's still inflicting shredded on hit with the marker rifle (which now has 1 less accuracy though), but it's certainly not as long, since it's "end of [target's] next turn"

indigo oasis
#

But typically won’t be

ancient forge
#

Old version could last the whole battle if lock on never cleared, aiui

#

Which end of next turn does not come close to

indigo oasis
#

If you eat the lock on before their next turn then it’s way shorter

marsh nest
#

Could be longer, if the next enemy is going to consume it, yeah.

#

But the upper bound for how long is much lower

ancient forge
#

And the incentive is to not just consume it right away if shredded is making a difference anyway

twin reef
#

Yeah, if I had done the rebake, I would have suggested, "an attack that consumes this Lock On treats the target as Shredded."

dapper sierra
#

Then you'd have to track, like, what lock on comes from who

rose hamlet
#

Markerlight does something similar tbf

#

Like, in this case it would've been "You get Lock On and Marker Rifle (effect). Marker Rifle (effect) lasts until you lose lock on" in different wording

brisk flax
#

How marker rifle works now is basically how the swallowtail's shred on lock on works

#

Just takes an attack

twin reef
#

Makes sense. Scouts are basically Swallowtails.

smoky bluff
ancient forge
#

AP isn’t as strong as shredded, it only ignores armor but not resistance

brisk flax
#

I'm not really a fan of the "treat the attack that consumes this lock on as shredded" thing, which I've seen proposed as like a change for people who think the swallowtail's shred is too quick and easy, mainly because I think it's a little too tactically inflexible (it doesn't work with multiple attacks, it encourages leaving the lock on to linger but not in a very interesting way, etc)

#

It's also objectively a nerf, and the marker rifle's already been downtuned in several respects

indigo oasis
#

So if Swallowtail can have it Scout can have it

#

The Scout can miss after all, plus its ability to exploit damage on the Marker Rifle got nerfed in the Rebake

ashen galleon
#

Does the Scourer's Melt ability deal damage to the targets too since it just says "counts as being hit"?

dapper sierra
#

we'd say no, just since counting as being hit (specifically in the context of an ability that does stuff when you count as being hit by something specific) isn't the same as Being Hit

brisk flax
ashen galleon
#

Alright, does it allow "on hit" reactions to trigger though? [i.e Gunslinger]

brisk flax
#

Also no, you aren't being hit by anything, you are marked for the purpose of Focus Down

mighty granite
#

veterans having overcharges built in is pretty fun

#

gotta say

#

yeah rebakes nice

vale crescent
#

So melt can deal damage if you shoot someone then shoot terrain which counts as the follow up hit for a couple burn?

brittle cipher
#

other way around i believe, melt lets you tag people as "hit by the scourer" so you get free focus down on them next turn

#

obliterate the iceout drone and mark everyone huddling beside it for followup shots

vale crescent
#

Mmmm, to me it sounds like either order works... Because melt simply says it counts as hitting. And focus down just wants to hit...

dapper plover
#

raw it does sound like it'd work either way

based on what kai said it sounds like the intent is that it specifically sets up focus down, not that it triggers it

brisk flax
#

Among other things, please note the wording of Focus Down, specifically "during the previous round"

#

You also cannot double tap with the thermal lance via overcharge or elite extra actions or something and go "shot, focus down shot"

brisk flax
#

Now that I'm back at my desk and not phoneposting, I suppose the distinction that I am drawing is between "counts as a hit" and "counts as Being Hit"

#

I know valk and some others have sometimes talked about "mark overload" before, but this is one of the big reasons why marks as a mechanic are extremely good, because you would then just be able to say "characters splashed by melt gain a Scourer's Mark" and it would be perfectly unambiguous what that entails, and the Scourer IS functionally a mark-oriented NPC

#

(the flipside of this would be configuring the mark for "has to be consumed during the next round only, then expires if not otherwise used)

vale crescent
mighty granite
#

if you have figured this out yet:
are the wallflower + other npcs going to be their own release or were you perhaps considering having them release with the current npc rebake stuff?

brisk flax
mighty granite
#

Neat

#

Avenger Billy Tomas will be real in… eventually!

brisk flax
#

The more feedback I get the faster they'll be in, so get everyone to run 100000 playtest games using them

mighty granite
#

I will try to do my part

#

With avenger + strider… when I can.

#

Then again I should try some of the other ones I just have a lot of stuff to try

#

Actually, while I have some space to run whatever I want: anything need specific testing

mighty granite
#

will a engineer against a like, gunslinger oracle spam mech have a hard time?

brisk flax
#

beats me

mighty granite
#

the turrets seem like they will die. does the compensation of the "prevented" damage + the lock on trait help

#

hm

brisk flax
#

every shot that goes into a turret is a shot that isn't going into the engineer or another mech, it's true that someone with a lot of aux weapon output can keep an engineer on the back foot in terms of turret deployment but that's also just sort of the nature of the game in the same way that, say, a dedicated hacker can keep a ronin or a berserker performing poorly

mighty granite
#

true

mighty granite
#

Question more for design philosophy reasons then other:

on the spite, why not keep the imprison on a system save, or a tech attack, or such?
Maybe even a really cracked one..

Reading the blurb + other stuff you’ve said.. I.. think it’s a similar reason to aegis’s shield getting the recharge buff.. consistency with what it does in a combat.

#

Maybe? Idk.

#

also another note: how do players not get fried from tech attacks + based on heat ticks?
Am I overreacting to it?
Or is taking some stress fine, actually. (Like how damage is?)

brisk flax
#

Like, if a Spite fails to Imprison someone, what is the interesting outcome out of that?

#

It's a question you can ask about a lot of NPCs, but Imprison is the Spite's primary schtick and it's on a full action, it's a centralizing sort of ability, but one that's also integral to its playstyle as an enemy unit

#

To draw from another example, would the Assassin be more interesting if Assassin's Mark was on a save?

mighty granite
#

I mean, I’d think it’s a similar answer to what does missing in general do to NPCs in some ways?

#

Like even just on attacks and stuff

brisk flax
mighty granite
#

Ye

brisk flax
#

The answer isn't going to get more robust then "I think this would suck shit if it could whiff"

#

Imprison is a mark ability, mark abilities do not really need the ability to miss imo

#

"put a mark on a guy" is just setup

#

One of the complaints people have had about the wallflower spite is that if Imprison fails to go off a couple few times then by and large the threat of Imprison falls off a cliff

brisk flax
#

To expand on this a bit, Imprison is an ability that takes time to apply pressure in a way that's distinct from, say, an assault shooting you with a gun. An assault that misses some and then hits is still meaningfully contributing to opfor pressure, an Imprison that fails to take hold isn't

mighty granite
#

That is interesting.. hmm

#

In other news: I figured out another micro-nerf to player equipment:
Ghoul nexus is ever slightly weaker when a barricade doesn’t have kinetic resist and just has more other defenses instead

#

Does this matter? Uhhh

#

Uhhhhhhhhhhh totally yeah the ghoul nexus dip meta is so over

#

kingdom hearts 2 Kai Tave has screwed us once again!

brisk flax
# mighty granite That is interesting.. hmm

Basically, a thing that needs to be held in consideration is that abilities which take a long time to ramp up (multiple rounds) tend to suffer from being awkward to use in a game where combat probably lasts for around 5-8 rounds on average, with 8 being something of an outlier even then

#

Imprisoning someone right off the bat doesn't actually put any sort of pressure on them, most heavy heatlooping builds can just sort of go "okay well I'll adjust my gameplan somewhat" and not feel any twist of the knife at first

#

so if you flub a couple of Imprison saves, by round 3 or so it's going to be increasingly questionable how much value Imprison even has, and at that point the Spite is looking at Enthrone and basic abilities

#

even if you land an imprison by round 3, it still probably requires some time to actually create a threat, or by that point the PCs may be in a position where that threat simply isn't going to manifest (they're close enough to simply tag the Spite and cause it to fall off, they can just kill it, etc)

#

the wallflower version sort of attempts to give Imprison more of an immediate bite to it by saying you can repeatedly tag an infected character for damage, but that doesn't really make up for it imo and "well you can turn the spite into a damage dealer" is a fairly uninteresting sort of consolation

#

I don't think any interesting outcomes or any interesting pressure fluctuations exist by making Imprison a thing that can potentially fail, it's already an ability that requires time to get off the ground and actually start making its target feel the weight of it, moreso than "well the assault missed once, but then it smacked you for 6 damage the second time around"

mighty granite
#

This makes a lot of sense… hmm

brisk flax
#

so my approach to this is twofold:
1). Imprison just happens, no attack roll, no save, there's not a compelling reason for it to fail in my opinion so I'm just making it the equivalent of a mark effect (which it already kind of is)
2). Edict, which rides on top of Imprison, and allows the Spite to apply much more direct, on-demand pressure from the start rather than having to wait until an infected character is actually in a position where not being able to clear heat normally finally makes them go "okay now this sucks"

mighty granite
#

Hmm

brisk flax
#

Like, in terms of "fucking with someone's heat-based playstyle," a far more direct and much more impactful sort of restriction would be "you can't GAIN heat or do stuff that would make you gain heat" because that far more directly sticks a knife in what most heat-based playstyles are wanting to do

#

locking someone out of clearing heat CAN hurt, but it's much easier for a nuclear cavalier stabilize loop whatever build to pivot away from that and just ride in first gear for a while than it is for that same build to be told "you can't engage with any of your special tools until you get this mark off of you"

#

which has been a relatively steady critique of the wallflower Spite...that Imprison LOOKS mean, it SOUNDS mean, it is a very psychologically mean thing, but in PRACTICAL terms it is not actually as mean as people envision it to be

#

similar to the sniper's mark, which makes people go "1 structure damage? woahhhhhhhhhhhh" but like you can also just shoot someone for 20 damage and not waste the full action

mighty granite
#

Oh as a side note: haven’t ever really messed with spites, are they mainly
They seem quite mean still on a low heat cap mech

brisk flax
#

Low heat cap mechs are also the ones least likely to be doing a lot of heat heavy stuff directly in the first place, which means Imprison is kind of not super threatening in a general sense

#

the mechs that most care about having their heat gameplay fucked with are also generally the mechs that have high heat caps

mighty granite
#

I’m kinda thinking preemptively with just like basic npc invades

#

Hm

brisk flax
#

yeah but like witches also already exist

mighty granite
mighty granite
brisk flax
#

"you could imprison a low heat cap mech and then just hit them with basic invades" sure but you could also run a witch and hit them with tear down

mighty granite
#

There’s different end goals but I understand your point, that’s quite true

#

Well

#

Maybe not that different I was just thinking the spite has the whole come to me thing

brisk flax
#

Yeah but in practice, a lot of the time players aren't going to bother running 20 spaces just to tag the spite and clear imprison, it's more likely they're going to either kill it or ignore it

#

you CAN do it, but I view it as more of an incidental thing you can do as circumstances develop

mighty granite
brisk flax
#

maybe it becomes an option that opens up as the fight progresses, but in general you aren't going to reliably draw someone across the map just to do that

mighty granite
#

Yeah, that makes sense

opal folio
#

is there an lcp available for the 1.4 version of the WF rebakes? I assume the github was taken down after the official itch release, but I don't see anything in the pins here

brisk flax
#

or at least I don't recall there being an announcement to that effect

subtle nacelle
#

oh whoops last release was the pdf v1.3

mighty granite
#

Oh, another speculative question: answer when you have energy, if you want

in your witch rebake, you make it a sort of heat user punisher npc with its danger zone interactions

However, the spite is reworked into being that somewhat (although it might have been already)

They are.. admittedly quite different, so I’m not really concerned, but I was more just wondering if this was overlapping in the sort of… “i like my npc classes seperate and specialized” thing
(Alternatively they kinda just fell into it due to designing base NPCs first then spite as a treat)

rose hamlet
mighty granite
#

True

rose hamlet
#

A Witch and a Priest both generate heat, but they generate it in different ways

mighty granite
#

I may just be narrow minded

#

And foolish

#

When it comes to heat warfare

brisk flax
#

yeah I mean you yourself say "they are admittedly quite different" so, like, that's how it is

#

a bunch of NPCs are also "guys that deal damage"

mighty granite
#

Guess in my head “danger zone punishers” felt more specific then heat dealers

brisk flax
#

I don't really think of the Spite as a "danger zone punisher" specifically

#

the Spite is an NPC that denies you the ability to do things that are outside the realm of the standard conditions/statuses

#

Can't clear heat, can't overcharge, can't stand next to people, can't attack this person, etc

dapper plover
#

the spite doesn't directly hook into the danger zone at all, does it?
it just makes heat mitigation harder

#

This secondarily hooks into DZ by merit of making it harder to get out of if you can't clear heat, but it doesn't actually care if you're in it or not

vale crescent
#

Spite I think punishes high heatcap lots of heat playing PCs, whereas the witch is better punishing people who haven't invested in that stuff or play the fine line. A ghengis with many heat clear options might not care a witch has used tear down because it will just clear it and it won't stress it but be much more frightened of a spite that can turn that off and mean it's heat gain can't be easily cleared

#

Just like how many other strikers might just be "damage guys" but all excel in one field, like a ronin and a melee being close range fighters, ronins excel at fighting ranged foes and beserkers can mash up a front line fighter who doesn't appropriately turnn them off

brisk flax
#

basically, the Spite CAN interfere with people whose gameplans involve going in the Danger Zone because it removes a way for them to curate their own heat, but it's more broadly about simply removing ways for them to do things they could otherwise do, whether it's stabilizing, using the FRG, etc, or more specifically forcing them into action/inaction via Edict

#

This all kind of circles back to one of my broader, top-down things with the Spite which is that the Spite APPEARS to be one thing (this guy will RUIN your heat-focused players!) but the actual practical reality of it isn't what it's assumed to be at first glance

bold crystal
#

the one thing the spite very specifically messes with is 'lightning generator in the danger zone' but almost all other sources of heat are optional.

daring surge
#

If a unit were to have immunity to being Pulled by smaller character, would the rest of the Cataphract's Electromagnetic Bola's effects apply?

brisk flax
#

Yes, immunity to one thing doesn't act as immunity to the entirety of an effect unless it's broad enough to encompass such a thing

#

That is, immunity to damage makes you 100% immune to damage no questions asked, but it doesn't make you immune to the knockback that an attack also does even if you completely ignore the damage

small orchid
#

odd quesitron not really looking to run it but want to know how the interaction would work. If you had a biological Scourer would it be able to take advantage of the cooling module portion of pulse laser or does the fact that it can't gain heat prevent that trait form activating in the first place

dapper sierra
#

how would that work?

small orchid
#

I was just thinking of an exotic Scourer with living chassis and I was unsure if cooling module would triggers even when no heat is present since it would just take energy damage

indigo oasis
#

So here's my logic:

A biological Scourer can still stabilize, and that basically does nothing.
Cooling module is it's own thing sorta so it doesn't care if there is heat to clear or not, it'll just trigger.
Therefore, a Bio Scourer could use effect that key off Cooling Module, and in some cases not suffer any downsides

#

So essentially Pulse Laser still requires Cooling Module to trigger to recharge for free even if it doesn't clear any heat- the trigger is "Cooling Module activates," not "Cooling Module clears heat," so a Bio Scourer cannot get around that. With Thermal Overload and some way to voluntarily move as a reaction, however, it c an completely disregard the penalty of not triggering Cooling Module and just spam Overloaded Thermal Lance shots

small orchid
#

thanks! that helped clear up my question

indigo oasis
#

It'll still be taking 4 damage every time it fires it's thermal lance tho so like idk about that one chief

small orchid
#

oh yeah wasn't planning on using it just got curious

#

actually since it's resistant to energy damage and has 2 armor I think it might just take 1 energy damage unless I'm misunderstanding when armor and resistances are applied

dapper sierra
#

armor first and then resistance

indigo oasis
#

Isn't the self energy damage AP?

brisk flax
#

nope

drowsy crow
#

Is there (supposed to be) a limit to how many times the hive's Driving Swarm can proc? Seemed like with even 2 optional picks you can perform some nasty movement combos if a player is unlucky, but wasn't sure if it was intentional or not since it is a save that could break the chain every proc and the hive is a controller

brisk flax
#

There isn't a limit in the CRB either

brisk flax
mighty granite
#

I strongly don’t like it when NPCs have multiple roles built in

makes the lycan, a pc mech about swapping between roles
Why would Kai do this /j

rose hamlet
#

NPCs vs PCs I suppose

brisk flax
# 

They were also a showcase for some more experimental designs, like explicit multi-role NPCs. Roles in Lancer are a bit of a weird case where on the PC end roles are largely just decorative, none of the core rulebook's player-facing mechs were designed with concrete roles in mind from the ground up the way classes in other games might be. The IPS-N Drake is a "Defender" because it's...tough and has Guardian? Sure, why not. Roles here are basically just used as a convenient signpost to help guide new players towards mechs they might like by going "hey, you like big tough mechs? Check out the Defenders!" even if said Defenders also include oddballs like the Gorgon.

But on the NPC end, roles are significantly more baked into the NPC class design. An NPC that is a Defender is one that is meant to be a Defender period, and while there's some flexibility in implementation there to be sure (no one's going to mistake a Demolisher for a Bastion), it remains the case that NPCs are much more strictly defined by roles. This is an approach I agree with so much that one of the top-down goals of this entire project is bringing NPC roles into even sharper focus where necessary.```
twin reef
#

The difference is that PC mechs are a vehicle of self expression and are far more modular. Iskander has the Controller role, but it has a Heavy Mount, so you could easily build a Striker or Artillery Iskander.

NPC mechs are a vehicle for the plot. They're simpler and more fixed in form because the GM has to manage them all themselves. If you want to make an Ultra Support with Devastator and a Ravager Turret, nothing is stopping you, but you'd have to budget it as a Striker, and you probably won't have multiple Ultras like that.

brisk flax
#

Yep, that's a big element of it

#

To put the same point in different terms, a player only has to manage a single mech, and so it's fine if that mech has various facets to explore or build upon

#

The GM has to manage the entire opfor, individual NPC units ARE the facets

#

The Lycan is far from the first PC side mech in lancer that colors outside of strict role lines

#

And strictly speaking, a number of NPCs are also a bit blurry, the Archer is a Controller that basically deals damage on par with Strikers, if you labeled the Archer as a Controller/Striker I don't think it would be amiss, but I think from a foundational level of "what is this NPC's primary focus," you have to actually have one of those

#

"just a guy who does stuff" is not where you want an NPC unit to be

young laurel
#

That is a fair take to look onto it.

#

Sometimes CRB Assault and Archer feels like they just do the same thing but with sliiiiiightly different flavours. (Doesn't help that both their guns are reliable)

subtle nacelle
#

I'll make a release of the wallflower pdf v1.4 lcp later today. It seems all the lcp folk died this month

brisk flax
#

rip

mighty granite
#

Alright

Hover, destructive ultra sniper that blows up the hard cover the pc’s use over time

Also veteran + laser pointer because flavor reasons

#

Interesting fight concept?

indigo oasis
#

My one concern would be the Sniper being a sitting duck to ranged attacks. Despite the HP Loss Siege Shield may be worth it

#

But you can also fix this by using a Spite

#

As a ranged defender the Sniper won’t have to be beholden to it to make use of it’s benefits so it’ll be a lot safer

#

This is the rebake spite I’m talking about by the way

#

Do also keep in mind that, as it will have Veteran, it will also have Limitless, meaning it can Overcharge on reload turns and thereby OC loop to do. Something. If you can find an optional that gives it a fun quick action that’ll be a good use case

#

Something like Wraith Nexus could be very fun if you wanna lean into the Laser and just throw out debuffs galore

#

Puppet Crasher could also be cruel if you wanna make use of Moving Target

#

I would not recommend Supreme Maintenance due to not really having any Quick Actions available in the optional budget

#

Ofc there’s always Lock On or invade

#

But if you wanna make the most use of Devestator, then I’d recommend either Puppet Crasher, Grind Maniple, Wraith Nexus, or Legion for basic Invades, in order to ensure you make an attack every turn and get the max uses of Devestator

#

You could also take Nova Missiles if you wanna OC loop with Lock Ons instead (or not OC Loop at all), or Ravager Turret if you wanna be cruel and unusual (it combos really well with the flight + is more likely to land and trigger Devestator, but again it’s pretty cruel)

#

The seeking of Nova Missiles may actually make it the best use case for comboing with Devestator

#

But Wraith Nexus’ crit riders and the tech options both provide good debuffs for protecting the Sniper (either blinding, impairing, or punishing actions)

mighty granite
#

Hmmm very interesting thank you

indigo oasis
mighty granite
#

True

indigo oasis
#

But if it rubs you the wrong way then take Nova Missiles

mighty granite
#

I i just really wanted the laser for the debuff on mark

indigo oasis
#

Same benefits but without the cheese

#

What you really wanna do is trigger Devestator every round possible, and with required reload off turns the ability to do so becomes reduced significantly

#

Hence Nova Missiles compensating for that

#

Even if you didn’t have veteran I’d be recommending that combo

#

Either that or take Supreme Maintenance and have off turns be a QA reload followed up by an Invade action

#

You’re gonna miss more sniper shots than you expect so having a way to attack on the off turns is vital

mighty granite
#

I was debating that, but it’s also a function of like how much cover does a man want to blow up

indigo oasis
#

It’s 1/round, best case scenario is like 6 pieces of cover getting blown up

mighty granite
#

Oh

#

…… dang

#

Huh good to know

#

Definitely nova missiles then

indigo oasis
#

Brcause the ultra is unlikely to live past 6 rounds

mighty granite
#

True

indigo oasis
#

Basically you want the number of rounds the Ultra lives for to equal the amount of cover it destroys

mighty granite
#

I sort of want the cover destruction to function as like a stressor and a source of a way to smite people with snipers mark

#

Really

indigo oasis
#

On a striker that’s not a problem they can attack frequently with little issue- however a Sniper is the least action efficient class (on purpose) and so you need to counterbalance that to make Devestator be devastating

indigo oasis
mighty granite
#

Hmmm

indigo oasis
#

It’s like having the key you need to open a locked door past the locked door

mighty granite
#

I might go a bit low on soft cover then as well, not sure

#

And hard cover

indigo oasis
#

If you’re packing Nova Missiles and Devestator then I won’t worry about too much Hard Cover, but adding soft cover to the map would be a good idea

#

As Nova Missiles fixes that “locked door holding the key it needs” problem

mighty granite
#

Hmm what would go well with the sniper? I think like hmm

indigo oasis
#

Spite pair well with the fact it’s flying

#

As it’ll be a sitting duck and few defenders will be able to keep up otherwise

#

Breachers are good if you wanna lean into the terrain destruction, and the fact they like their targets prone introduces an interesting dynamic as Snipers dislike prone targets

mighty granite
#

Ah, but to run a. Spite is have to figure out to get the wallflower rebake npc lcp
And apparently it exploded

indigo oasis
#

Ah. Well then a Latch Drone Support is the next best thing

#

Or a Priest

#

You’ll want an accuracy booster is the point

mighty granite
#

For the sniper I presume?

indigo oasis
#

Yep- rebake makes it so that the AMR on its own isn’t enough, and whoever you focus down with the Sniper’s Mark is almost guaranteed to make themselves the hardest to hit target

#

Another option is Assaults if you wanna lean into the gimmick of “cover is king”

mighty granite
#

I can either go full hover just immediately or keep it as like mostly a flavor moment thing with the sniper, but I’m not sure which to go for

indigo oasis
#

I think out of all NPCs, Sniper benefits from Hover the least (sans Hornets), but it still has its use so I’d keep it

#

If you do keep hover then I don’t think defenders will add much substantial to the combat- instead consider throwing in either a Hive or a Seismic Repulsor Barricade

mighty granite
#

The hover is for cinema purposes

#

Hmm I wish I could run a spite ngl

#

I’ll look into some way of feeding the sniper support

indigo oasis
#

If you don’t want it to serve a tactical purpose then don’t put the hover in there

#

If you do however a Barricade with Seismic Repulsor and/or Hunger/Pursuit Limpets would be hilarious as the Sniper can just fly over and ignore the effects

mighty granite
#

Oo that’s tempting

indigo oasis
#

You can also lean into the “they fly now” theme with Hornets and Aces

mighty granite
#

Very useful advice thank you

indigo oasis
#

No probalo

mighty granite
indigo oasis
mighty granite
#

Hmm true

#

Now to also figure out how to make to clear the snipers hovering

indigo oasis
#

Are you using a VTT?

mighty granite
#

Irl it’s a bit hard

#

I could just

#

Put something below the token

indigo oasis
#

If you have d6’s, just put them underneath the mini

#

That’s what I used to do in the IRL play days

mighty granite
#

Hmm

indigo oasis
#

You’ll probably not be able to put too many underneath it, particularly when it starts going up to height 10, but you can note on like a sticky note how high it is

mighty granite
#

Maybe a d10 next to it that has the height

indigo oasis
#

Also a defender that could potentially benefit the airborne sniper- a Pyro, since its wall is 5 spaces high. But depending on the map it might suffer too much on the map to be worth it

indigo oasis
#

Oh next to it- yeah that works

#

It’s good that the max height in Lancer is 10 spaces otherwise that wouldn’t work

mighty granite
#

I mean bigger dice maybe would work but yeah

#

I have many more ideas…

#

Last note, any cool sitrep ideas?

#

Objectives are fun

indigo oasis
#

Escort?

#

Forces the group to move and makes cover inconsistent and dynamic

#

Makes it hard to just post up and hide away in a spot

mighty granite
#

True

#

I love me
Some escorts

subtle nacelle
indigo oasis
mighty granite
#

Hmm

#

I’ll have to try

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

just now noticed that Eye of Midnight interferes with Wrath-Lock and Bodyguard, but also noticed that the movement portions of those abilities are optional ("may move"/"may Boost") so the other half of the abilities can still be used. I have yet to try this rebake's Sentinel but it'll be interesting to see how those abilities interact

brisk flax
#

Rapid Response which turned into Wrath-Lock has no real non-movement component to it, but it's already a "may" anyway

rose hamlet
#

I just think it's neat that Wrath-Lock can still be a "reaction Lock On" even when Eye is active

brisk flax
#

Yeah, turning Eye of Midnight on DOES interfere with those abilities to an extent by making you lose the movement, but I felt it would be a bit awkward to have them completely shut off if a Sentinel switched over to that mode

indigo oasis
tribal mason
#

Considering that I rule that characters can end their turn on overlapping obstructions, cover, and terrain smaller than their size
What should I replace Towering Stride with? If anything

rose hamlet
#

I mean Towering Stride is just a Quality of Life thing, doesn't seem worth replacing

tribal mason
#

Fair

indigo oasis
#

I personally am a real stick in the mud as a GM when it comes to size 3 NPCs, specifically forcing them to stand on top of cover rather than overlap with it if they wanna end their turn there. The benefit is that they don’t have to spend any extra movement to climb tho

#

And Towering Stride circumvents that ofc

#

In my eyes a significant percentage of the Goliath’s whole deal is being big, and unless other NPCs (which only include 3rd party ones at the moment) decide to mechanically make that their schtick with their own Towering Strides, then Towering Stride is a Goliath exclusive feature. To me.

tribal mason
#

I have that as a rule because I like tight and dense maps, which Size 2 and 3 don't play nice with

indigo oasis
#

I also like dense maps but I also like punishing bigger characters a little in that respect because smaller characters do not get enough advantages

#

The downside of being bigger is not being able to benefit from cover as much, and Ra as my witness I'm gonna enforce that.

brisk flax
#

My personal take is that I too like dense maps, but I think if you let bigger characters easily maneuver through terrain that the map isn't actually as dense as it appears

solid pilot
#

question: is sight the same interaction as lesser sight where hidden characters remain hidden or does Sight cancel the hidden?

image.png
dapper sierra
#

it says they can't Hide, capitalized as the action

#

it doesn't affect Hidden

#

(that's our reading, at least, but we feel fairly secure in it)

solid pilot
#

👍

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

Yeah if this is referring to what became Greater Sight, it's somewhat explicit

# 
and hostile characters in  range 10 can’t Hide (though they
remain Hidden if they were already). ```
#

This is identical to how the Veteran trait Lesser Sight works with regards to hidden

indigo oasis
#

The Ultra’s sight can also be shut down I believe

#

Unlike Scout Sight and Lesser Sight

solid pilot
#

What's the interaction on that actually?

tall turret
#

I will quickly say this, love the Avenger's Vanguard armor change

#

Both makes fighting the Avenger more dynamic and gives player Controllers (or just knockback) a fun counterplay against it

trail pivot
#

life's finally coming back to a place where I can get back to working seriously on the template/npc alternatives project,

#

been cleaning up a few of the older ones and working towards starting more of the templates.

mighty granite
#

How like

#

More mobile are rebake engineers

#

Considering they can print 2 turrets+ turrets dying I could see them being more…free with their turret movement

rose hamlet
#

I have them pegged as rearguard artilleries

brittle cipher
#

Spacer engineer using concussion gun to hard launch their turrets forwards is pretty fun

mighty granite
#

Noted

twin reef
#

Space engineers?

mighty granite
#

Man I still don’t really get what rebake aces really do

More of a fault of the ace as a base npc really

rose hamlet
#

Aces are Skirmisher-type Artilleries in my book: They don't really wanna be close to the objective, they wanna flit in and out of range while needling you with missiles

#

IMO, play them like flying Operators

bold crystal
#

they trade cover for guaranteed* immunity* to melee attacks, basically.

#

plus barrel roll. you have them fly and shoot people from above.

brisk flax
#

Yeah

#

Valk's assessment of the Ace being "artillery-esque" isn't really very wrong imo, and it IS true that baseline the Ace doesn't have the same kind of gameplan as a Scourer or a rebake Assault, they basically loiter, drop consistent AoE attacks, and have various immunities (to melee, Barrel Roll, etc)

bold crystal
#

they do a little bit of damage and just keep doing that. if they have strafe, they do a little bit guaranteed. if they have missile swarm they do a little bit to everybody.

brisk flax
# 

Artillery could then be said to be less mobile and less robust, both of which are broadly true, though I would more directly state that Artillery is a role that should, in my opinion, struggle at objectives much more than Strikers as a major point of differentiation. Assaults and Breachers and Assassins are damaging, and so are Rainmakers and Bombards and Snipers, but the latter NPCs are not ones you want to have contesting objectives most of the time, while the former can all make good point-takers.``` I expound a bit upon my conception of what a "Striker" means beyond DPS Guys in the latest wallflower rebake draft, and if we take my framing as anything worth going by, Aces really exemplify the idea of someone resilient to unfocused attention that demands coordinated attention
#

The Ace is a problem that it probably takes a couple of people to solve

bold crystal
#

or some sort of mixed offense(basic tech attack into an actual attack so it can't barrel roll you)

brisk flax
#

I will note, lancer is pretty unclear with regards to things like objectives (like control zones) and verticality. Is an Ace contesting/controlling a zone if they're flying 10 spaces above it or not?

bold crystal
#

which a lot of more specialized mechs have trouble doing

brisk flax
#

If you say "yes" then the Ace is a really, really strong point-taker, which leans into the Striker side of things. If you say "no" then that pushes it more towards the Artillery end of the spectrum

rose hamlet
#

yeah legitimately that's really the clincher

bold crystal
rose hamlet
#

for High Zones, flight becomes an Objective Defense Mechanism

For low zones, Flight is just Artillery Maintaining Distance, but in the Z axis

brisk flax
#

It's a question I'm sure has probably been asked and answered somewhere, I'm just not familiar with whatever the answer was said to be

indigo oasis
#

I think Enhanced Combat digresses into that

young laurel
#

I've always seen the Striker and Artillery types as two sides of the same damage dealing coin.

Strikers being the ones that are best focused on brawling or engaging PCs and keeping them tied down fighting them.

Artillery (usually) are the ones who refuse to move and would rather sit still and rain hell upon PCs. Usually trading survivability for stronger damage as compared to the bulky brawly Strikers.

It is why I am so uncomfortable with Operators. They have the strengths of both Striker and Artillery types, and none of the weaknesses.

Strider, despite their slightly complex kit. Is one of the few (for me) that blends Striker and Artillery into one NPC without making it the literal devil.

rose hamlet
young laurel
#

That is always an interesting read

mighty granite
marsh nest
#

yeah they're almost artillery in a strange sense.

#

Not via the range, but in the "doesn't want to get looked at too much, let alone properly focussed"

mighty granite
#

That and base they have

#

20 range

marsh nest
#

Huh, so they are. Never... actually, seen that used that way.

#

yeah they're absolutely artillery in core then!

#

I do agree with the point that they're more survivable than most artillery though

#

not majorly, but they have quite a lot of speed and evasiveness.

indigo oasis
#

Just to clarify about Melt- the attack roll is just a basic attack against the object, meaning none of the accuracy bonuses of Thermal Lance, just +1/2/3 from tier and perhaps other buffs?

Asking because that makes the miss odds a lot higher and makes look a lot weaker. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, I mean terrain generally has 5 evasion anyhow.

young turtle
#

Personally I tend to view strikers as having more sustain than artillery generally

brisk flax
#

Artillery, imo, is a class that should fold under pressure unlike Strikers, they ought to be less independent, and though it's fragile in a numbers sense the Operator has a lot of ways to avoid folding that way

#

"More sustain" is a way of looking at it, but I tend to view it in terms of casual get-out-of-jail-free stuff or specific defenses, where Strikers can tend to shrug off casual attention so you need to focus a bit more upon them, while Artillery tends to be less resilient in that sense

indigo oasis
#

A Striker can stay in a control zone if a player tries to take it. An artillery cannot. Is that somewhat accurate?

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

I don’t think there’s actually a precedent for untyped ranged attacks. But the thing’s already published so nothing to be done

young turtle
#

An assault doesn't care much if you engage it and hit it with like, a single attack, but a sniper does

indigo oasis
#

Strikers are weak to prolonged engagement while Artillery is weak to engagement in general seems to be the sound of things

#

Attack a berserker more than once and it’ll have run out of aggressions. Attack an Assault or Ace more than once and it’ll have run out of reactions.

Attack a Rainmaker or Sniper and it can go screw itself

#

Cataphracts technically aren’t vulnerable to prolonged engagement but having multiple aggressors takes it out easy, which is more possible the longer an engagement goes on for. Etc.

dapper plover
#

many of them are weak to prolonged engagement, but more generally it's just
strikers have a defensive layer that requires a degree of additional effort or commitment to circumvent

artillery does not

brisk flax
#

Yeah, and TECHNICALLY the Operator doesn't have one of those layers on paper, but in a PRACTICAL sense they have a lot of other layers of bullshit

#

Range 20 isn't out of the ordinary, but their weapon lacks Ordnance (unlike the Sniper) and they're fast (unlike the Bombard and Rainmaker) and they're mobile beyond that (they can teleport) and their optionals gives them two really strong panic buttons (Step, Fade Generator)

#

So while an Operator does tend to crumple to direct pressure, they have way more tools than most other dedicated Artillery units to avoid that pressure without compromising their offensive uptime

trail pivot
#

yeah, its why for my end (im addition to dropping that offensive output) one of the things i did for operator was to lower its general offensive uptime.

young laurel
#

Operator despite being just as fragile as the other Artillery types. They are definitely more prone to escaping immediate death with their shenanigans while slinging crushing damage.

Doesn't help that their multi-attack is so dangerous the higher the tier.

Maria's Alternative Operator is a joy to use that I adopted it. :]
It turned into more of a Skirmishing Artillery which is its own niche compared to the Bombard's "I punish ya'll if ya'll are in groups.", Sniper's "I punish this one goober in particular.", and Rainmaker's "I punish everyone equally - but mainly people with Lock On."

indigo oasis
# trail pivot yeah, its why for my end (im addition to dropping that offensive output) one of ...

You know that thought process makes me imagine an alternative path for an Operator Rebake (that would’ve heavily diverged from the Rebake Philosophy- different future for a different designer) would be model it a bit after the Scourer or Pyro, making raptor a self heat weapon and forcing it to vent heat occasionally possibly without a trait to do it for them.

Ofc Raptor would have to be nerfed regardless but I can see it as at the very least an interesting angle to take things- Harrier that fires a few volleys then ducks for cover to clear heat, capable of being pinned down by making it lose control of the heat gain.

indigo oasis
young laurel
#

Shorter range, chonky damage at the cost of cooking itself, Maria's Alternative Operator (from looking at it) is an Off-Turn artillery that has turns it doesn't deal damage because it is trying to put itself out of being close to Reactor Stress.

indigo oasis
#

Where can I read its stats?

young laurel
#

Maria posted it somewhere but I lost it

brisk flax
#

that's why the changes are axing its range, accuracy, and panic buttons

#

a heat capped artillery does seem like an interesting way to go in general

indigo oasis
#

Valk made one of those lol

rose hamlet
#

Yeah but mine just feels like an artillery pyro lol

indigo oasis
#

I think it still counts, doesn’t come with a Heat Clear trait

rose hamlet
#

I like the risky business Maria’s is about

indigo oasis
#

Feels more like a Burn Bombard than an Artillery Pyro

rose hamlet
#

Maria’s feels like a metalmark or some HA mashup of Sherman + Sunzi

indigo oasis
#

But yeh Maria’s Operator having Limited Charges that require recharge combined with heat gain does force Stabilizes more frequently

#

I’m not personally a fan of the gimmick but I do admit it executes it very well

#

For folks who are a fan of the gimmick it seems like a well tuned match made in heaven

#

I noticed that with Maria’s Witch Alt too- those alts tend to get pretty funky with Lancer’s established mechanics and stretch them to their limits in where + how they can be used, while the Kai Rebakes wanted to stray closer to the gimmicks the classes were already going for and thereby simply expanded upon or repurposed existing gimmicks

#

I’m a pretty strong fundamentalist so I prefer the Kai Rebakes, but a lot of Lancer GM’s like being more experimental and as such the Maria Alts seem far more appealing to that kinda design preference

#

IPS-N vs SSC be like

#

Also the Maria Alts feel pretty heavy handed about mandating Stabilize due to how much more stuff than weapons have Loading + certain gimmicks specifically key off of Stabilize, and that component in particular I really like, big fan of NPC’s being forced to stabilize

trail pivot
#

i just didn't like recharge tbh

#

less dice to have to think about

#

in my mind the witch needed a bit of a change mostly because i did not particular find the idea of the witch going "okay heat 6 heat there u go" every turn + something else to be that conducive to an interesting character, and i was fine with getting somewhat divergent from the witch's usual playstyle to make it more comittal

#

in particular, because i also boosted its sensors to 20

#

across the board, rather than it onyl having 20 sensors at tier 3 (for some reason)

brisk flax
#

Recharge is, pretty sure, a direct lift from 4E which had an identical mechanic, and I do get that it's a bit polarizing and not unjustly, it's a form of randomness in a game that already has a lot of conventional axes of randomness

#

It's hard striking a good balance with Recharge stuff because if you make it too potent you have the Short-Cycle Lance Problem where hot dice means everyone loses 3 structure, if you apply it wrong then you have abilities that can get roadblocked

trail pivot
#

like in play half the time people forget it and I didn't want to have to math out how to balance what number to use so for every recharge in the game I either replaced with loading, made it limited or removed and rebalanced

brisk flax
#

I think that there IS a certain amount of randomness I favor simply because in a game like Lancer, or any sort of build-diverse tactics game, you run a bit of a risk of players getting too comfortable in their plans so to speak, this isn't REALLY a "players deserve to eat shit" thing so much as you want some shakeup to keep things from getting too flow-chart-y, and recharge is one way of going about that

trail pivot
#

yeah,

brisk flax
#

If Lancer worked on 4E rules, I imagine I would do a lot more "on Bloodied you automatically recharge this" type beats, since it doesn't my flag got planted on the hill of looking for alternate recharge clauses

#

which I gotta say, is a really fun and effective way to encourage strong gameplay loops and give some counterplay to things, I recommend everyone try it

trail pivot
#

one of my goals for the npc alternatives was just "basically making enemies more 'more complete and consistently threatening` yeah, I'm on the support rn and while I did make most of its stuff loading, I'm experimenting with having its loading equipment auto reload if an a nearby ally drops to half hp

brisk flax
#

Honestly, that's really clever because of how HP bars wrap around on multistructure units

#

it means the Support gets more procs off beefier guys

#

I've been unsatisfied trying to do that with self-half-HP mechanics due to the way that adopting multiple structure can cause it to proc repeatedly, but when OTHER people hit half is a smart turnaround

trail pivot
#

yeah, i was iffy or not on whether or not i wanted it to include the supports own drones as I havent gotten the chance to test them. I lowered the support drones hp to a flat 5 with stock 10/12/14 scaling eva edef so anything knocking them to half is probably killing them but tbh im unsure if i want to

A) let the recharge work on drones as an emergency replacement, given the range rq)
B) make a special drone clause
C) no drones at all.

I'm feeling inclined to axe the drone clause entirely and just say "mech/vehicle characters only"

young laurel
#

Alternatives or Replacements to the Recharge clauses would be nice as Recharge as a mechanic is more or less the middle ground between preventing constant returning of powerful abilities (unless Lady Luck blesses your arse) and preventing abilities from essentially being reduced to [Flavor Text] the ability.

Recharge as an idea is a nice element of randomness. In experience though one could get shafted in either direction depending on the dice rolls.

#

PS: It's really nice reading through other people's ways of tinkering with NPCs.

My current hotfixed solution was to give the Support an ability that deploys itself in a spot. Making them easier to hit but allow them to essentially return some modicum of HP, Heat, and Recharge ONE system at the start of their next turn.

Biggest downside to this is that it Immobilizes them and any Melee or Ranged attack targeting them will gain +1 Accuracy. Which is tough because as a Size 2, the Support has limited options for cover so it would have to be careful with doing this if they want to guarantee the return of a Recharge Ability.

brisk flax
brisk flax
young laurel
brisk flax
#

I think the best basic practice is to always consider recharge as more of a drawback that sometimes has an upside and plan accordingly, if you want an ability to happen frequently then you don't want to give it a recharge, if you want an ability to NOT happen frequently then you also shouldn't

#

Recharge works good for things like Melt, Thermal Charge, etc, and alternatively I'm fine for it for things like Restock Drone as I feel the consequences of that going iffy either way are more sanguine regardless of which way it tips

young laurel
#

Hence why the ability I used only exists with the Support and it is a risky play (Unless Players decide to not prioritise it)

Cause tbh, I've seen players like this.

brisk flax
#

Meanwhile I wasn't a fan of recharge on the Barricade cube because it's probably the most evocative ability it has. In all honesty, just ditching the protocol requirement would PROBABLY have been sufficient, but I think it's more enjoyable and tactically fulfilling to have it just be a normal action because I don't see the recharge gating anything particularly strong or abusive UNLESS you can mass manufacture cubes across the map

#

so the shortest distance between those two points is "just make it so you can't spam cubes everywhere"

trail pivot
#

to be fair, there usualyl is no reason to prioritize a support unless its (as i most recently used it) slowing down the players on a movement based sitrep

young laurel
#

Oh yeah, Barricade's recharge Cube never made sense for me.

brisk flax
#

It makes sense from the contest of unlimited cubes

young laurel
#

Ah, that.

#

Makes more sense now.

brisk flax
#

if a barricade could make infinite size 2 blocks on demand, it could really shit up a map in unfun ways

trail pivot
#

yeah

brisk flax
#

hence why the rebake version has it so you can only have one cube out at a time

#

that's the tradeoff for no recharge imo

young laurel
#

My man Barricade and Kobold be playing Minecraft instead of Lancer.

#

Tradeoffs are nice, because it gives abilities strengths and weaknesses.

#

Ahem.
Eyes Assault Blanket Reliable and Operator/Ronin Multiattack Terrors

brisk flax
#

I gave some real thought to whether I wanted to give the Support another baseline ability because most of its core kit, the real meat of it, IS a recharge and a passive trait, then the glue gun, but ultimately I just couldn't really think of anything else I wanted to give it

#

It's definitely an NPC that (in the rebake anyway, less so the CRB) kind of lives in its optionals

young laurel
#

This is fair. Support is one of the few CRB that feels remarkably normal compared to its companions.

brisk flax
#

also while tactically the support makes a good ram/grapple platform, I didn't want to encourage that overtly as I felt it would distract from the overall focus

young laurel
brisk flax
#

like no grapple bonus stuff, it's not a BAD idea per se, but I think as a baseline ability in particular you kind of want to be speaking to an NPC's specific identity more than sideline stuff

#

the breacher gets ram bonuses because the breacher needs accuracy and one feeds into the other

#

just being size 2 doesn't really mean you get slotted into that category

trail pivot
#

yeah i cut the condition clear optional in half and stuffed ti on the base kit as something to start with

young laurel
#

Yeah, at this point I feel Breacher is the best one to have bonuses for Ram because... well "BREACHER" it is in the name.

Honestly, I like it personally when NPCs do things that feels like they live up to their name.

Things like ACEs being flying birds that are so hard to hit down but as the word Ace being synonymous with Ace Pilot. This makes them into a mech that functions like a fighter jet.

or BASTIONs not being paper tigers and are in fact highly resistant beasts capable of protecting their allies with their bulk. (These are the guys you want to keep Shredded to prevent their defences from being a problem)

RAINMAKERs slinging different kinds of missiles that of course rain hell on their targets.

#

Which to be fair with Ace and Rainmaker in the CRB, they do that but it feels... Kinda bland-ish?

brisk flax
# trail pivot yeah i cut the condition clear optional in half and stuffed ti on the base kit a...

I really, really went back and forth on this. Based on some of the feedback I got during the Gilgamesh testing days, something I've looked to be a bit more mindful of (up to the audience how effective that's been) is the ease with which debuffs can get shrugged off or penalties worked around, and with all that said, I felt that any baseline condition clear I'd give to the Support would either be Recharge or probably like Limited or something, and since my personal guideline is "Limited only exists as Limited 1 only," it felt like I wouldn't be adding a lot of robustness to the no-optionals Support playstyle

#

I do think there's a very strong argument for core condition clear as part of its kit

trail pivot
#

yeah, i ended up treating it as a loading feature with that same "reloads if ally dorps to half hp in range" thing

brisk flax
#

I also thought about working it into the support drone but I decided to go with the reload instead

trail pivot
#

which is still good but also doesn't make it just perpetually shrugging it off,

brisk flax
#

since that felt more diverse

#

and my huge gripe with the CRB support is it's just bursting with redundancies

trail pivot
#

i still kept it to only the slowed impaired jammed and stunned so if you shred or imobilize the npc is still stuck that way,

#

Yeah it really is a lot of things for me to just go

brisk flax
#

two condition clearing optionals that both work slightly differently

young laurel
#

Kinda feels like as part of the kit. The Support is the best one to have with its own condition clear.

trail pivot
#

"im going to use the glue gun the restock drone and the latch drone"

#

and after a wahile i ran out of weird templates to slap on supports and wanted to use them

brisk flax
#

I do like zooming in on very specific conditions, yeah

#

that's a good way to give it some texture

young laurel
#

Surprisingly terrifying.

trail pivot
#

im generally unfamiliar with whatall dustgrave does for npcs but im not really finding "make the support a dps" all that compelling because imo there are better choices for that if i wanted to do that

brisk flax
#

yeah and specifically the support is the least offensive support

young laurel
#

This is fair.

brisk flax
#

like the scout contributes to DPS on the back end more than the support does

young laurel
#

Industrial, Horror, and Spec Ops templates are all pretty interesting when slapped onto other NPCs.

#

But it is usually and generally up to the GM (I hope it is) discretion on what kind of NPC they want to shenanigize with.

young laurel
indigo oasis
# young laurel Alternatives or Replacements to the Recharge clauses would be nice as Recharge a...

In my experience outside of Lancer, specifically with D&D 5E (not 4E, so if 4E’s action economy is more comparable to Lancer’s this falls apart), Recharge tends to be reserved for abilities that cost regular actions. This tends to translate to Recharge not really being a “the NPC’s power is determined by luck” and more like “the recharge flattens how many decisions the GM has to make, because the results of the recharge roll basically determine the NPC’s whole turn.” Because with the best example of this, dragons, they don’t really have any bespoke actions outside their Multiattack and their breath weapon.

The flattening of decisionmaking element does have merits, but overall that’s both not what Lancer wants to do [EDIT: As much, it still crops up here and there] and is also not very well executed in D&D 5E- no clue if this was the same case in 4E but I wouldn’t really doubt if it was.

rose hamlet
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It’s the same pattern as 4e yeah, though in 4e Dragons had Bloodied Breath where they immediately recharged and used breath weapon if knocked to half hp

rose hamlet
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It means in games like 4e where there’s one major Standard Action, you know exactly what that action will be for a minor enemy and simplify choices for a bigger one

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(I also tend to think that many basic Lancer NPCs are overly complicated for what they are compared to their cousins from DnD and pathfinder)

young laurel
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Fair point. Simplifying an NPCs action turn is a benefit of Recharge I suppose.

"Ah, this thing isn't up yet so I can't use it. Fine, you're gonna have to do this other thing to hopefully set up the big thing when it comes up."

Is also really nice.

marsh nest
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I think I'd like recharges more if they were more deterministic and less random. Even if they were "Use this, and it's on cooldown for 1d2 turns"

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same sort of use-when-available feeling, but with less runs of never rolling above a 3, or rolling a 6 every turn.

indigo oasis
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Short Cycle Lance in the rebake works exactly like that, however that style of recharge comes with the drawback of if there's more than one of those recharge types of the field it becomes a pain to track

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You can generalize the resource to be very "at a glance" by making Heat the resource in question but that get's muddy

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Short Cycle Lance works because it's literally the only feature in the rebake to work like that- everything else is very binary in terms of "does this character have the ability to use it?" They either do or don't, as opposed to "they do in X turns." SCL is also very good at the GM Decision Flattening- if you use it, that's the NPC's whole turn, and there's little reason to not just fire it right away. Very much a "having this determines what you're gonna do with your turn" trait.

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Ontolotactical Array also functions similarly, though because it keys off of reactions as opposed to actions it doesn't quite hit the point of "flattening GM decisionmaking," which it doesn't intend to do anyway. That, and it only regains charges when certain conditions are met, not just passively over time.

marsh nest
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Yea, it is inherently a lot of book keeping. That is the largest downside of that style I think

indigo oasis
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Tbh Maria's NPC Alts do this a little- it's that bookkeeping that turned me away from the Alt Operator a bit but for those able to keep on top of it it's pretty good

marsh nest
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Some sort of hybrid might be keeping the recharge die next to the NPC and adding it. Roll 2 this turn? Next turn’s roll is +2. Still possible to only get 4, but a lot more likely to get 6+. Would then be optional to spend the die and recharge everything with an equal or lower number. Still book-keeping but less, just one die per NPC, in physical terms, and one number otherwise.

indigo oasis
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For Lancer, I don’t think that exactly works well

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At least if it were common

twin reef
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There's NPCs in Field Guide to Liminal Space that manipulate recharges.

indigo oasis
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The liminal space LCP is something I’ve found kinda difficult to acquire via the store page tbh (aka it’s hard to buy, the PDF seems to be all that’s listed on the store page)